September 30, 2025 • 43 mins
Michelle Rutkowski delves into her architectural journey and the foundation of MOR Studio, focusing on the intricate balance between business growth and personal life. She explores the role of dopamine in motivation and the reward system, detailing the four pillars of reward: connection, discovery, movement, and rest, with practical applications for AEC businesses. The discussion extends to the biological underpinnings of productivity and team dynamics, including the neuroscience of endorphins. Michelle shares personal insights on dopamine regulation, emphasizing the design of spaces that foster community engagement and minimize distractions, integrating the reward system into architectural design.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Instead, what happened was that I fell in loveagain with things I had didn't realize I had
(00:05):
fallen out of love with.
My motivation came back.
My health came back.
My ability to stick with stuff came back.
My creativity came back like in unexpected waysand ideas started coming to me, especially once
I started understanding the rhythm of reward.
I looked into this system because as soon asthis happened, I said, what happened?
How is it that I went from loving something somuch that I wanted it all of the time?
(00:28):
It was consuming my brain power so much, eithertrying to not do it or working my way off
because I working my way, basically overworkingto compensate for the bad things I was doing on
the weekends or at night, and it was just thismess of things.
So how could I go from loving something so muchto literally not caring about it at all?
(00:51):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of BuildingScale, specifically the building connection
series where I get to talk to people that Imeet here in the valley, through all kinds of
different ways.
And, shout out to Shelly Bryant who introducedme to Michelle Rakowski, who is the person that
I have an amazing conversation with today.
(01:12):
She shares her journey into architecture,discusses the early passion for it, as well as
her evolution, with the firm, and then divesinto, this concept of the reward system and
explains how dopamine and motivationtransformed not only her professed,
(01:32):
professional life, but also her her personalAnd she tells these amazing stories, and she
outlines the four pillars of reward, which isconnection, discovery, movement, and rest, and
then how she emphasizes the importance ofdesigning spaces that, foster those elements
kind of across the board and how you actuallyenhance well-being.
(01:56):
It's super impactful discussion.
When I had somebody doing the clips for theshow, they're like, oh my god.
This episode is so fire, which I was then alsoexcited that somebody said it was fire because
that's what the kids say.
Nonetheless, really, really excited, to havethis episode out and, get to share this,
(02:21):
amazing discussion that I had with Michellewith you.
And, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
So here's Michelle Rakowski from MORE Studiosand talking about the reward system.
So, Michelle, I don't know if I've actuallyasked you this because we've talked so much
about reward system purpose, all that amazingstuff that you're
doing.
Yeah.
Why did
(02:41):
why did you get into architecture?
Like, why I own a firm?
Like, why go down that path?
Well, yeah, architecture was always part of theplan as far back as I remember.
So when I was, in second grade, I was an artistand I was also good at math.
And so my parents said, well, I've got a planfor you, so you're not a starving artist.
And they said, go into architecture school.
(03:03):
And so yeah.
I mean, I was from a very young age, focused onthat.
I dropped out of school out of high school, notdropped out.
Oh my gosh.
Made sound like a dropout.
I actually transferred to the community collegeto take credits, for architecture so I could
get ahead of the game.
In fact, I just pulled out the first section Iever drew at 17 years old the other day when I
(03:24):
was cleaning out my office.
And I had drawn drawn a little puppy in thesection.
It was yeah.
But back when there was blueprints.
So I actually did run blueprints through themachine and and did all that.
I found my first set of drawings.
So I've been I think I've been an architect,you know, my whole life, it feels like, but
that was
From the beginning.
(03:44):
Yeah.
Grade two.
Also, yeah.
Didn't drop out.
Went to community college.
Very different.
Very different.
I was like, holy shit.
We got a big story to tell.
Let's get
down this.
There's actually quite a story behind that, butI just don't know if I should tell it on this
format.
But yes, I did.
(04:05):
So I, when I went to community college, therewas also a little blow up around my house and
they were like, honey, it's time for you togrow up.
And they basically said, You gotta get out ofthe house, and it was a win win for everybody,
so I was it was just a very good thing, and Igot to go to community college, which was very
nice, and, my parents and I stayed in touch andin very good relationships because of the move,
(04:29):
So it was all a good thing, but at the time itfelt a little dramatic for me to move out at 17
and go to the community college and start myarchitecture life.
Wow.
That's, that that's very intriguing.
I will dig into those stories maybe anothertime.
But Over maybe over some sort of bonfiresomewhere.
Yes.
That sounds great.
(04:49):
That sounds amazing.
So always been an architect at heart.
So love design, right?
Like that is so that you could have done thatanywhere though.
Like you could have gone to an architect firmand just wrote out your years there Why doing
go and do your own thing?
Like why build more?
Well, at that time it was a matter of, I was, Iwas at my firm fourteen years and I loved it.
(05:14):
I loved it.
We just, I was in a really good spot, but atthe same time I had gotten burnt out and
overwhelmed by all of the pressures of life.
Had, I was having our third kiddo at the time.
And so I really thought that I would take aback seat to architecture and just design my
life.
But what happened was about a year in, it wasclear that that wasn't exactly how it wasn't
(05:35):
working out exactly how I had planned.
And it just felt like my husband and I were ondifferent pages.
I had just, I loved architecture and it just,it, I needed a break, I think ultimately.
And so walking away and having our third kiddoand we renovated this house during that time.
So I was pretty busy.
And about a year into that, I just, I knew Ineeded to solve something and it's actually in
(05:58):
the middle of the night when I woke up and Isaid I was going to start more studio.
The name came to me, the whole thing at 3AM.
And I said, that's it.
I'm going to have, have a firm that flexes withthe seasons of my life so that I can still do
what I love and grow and flex it based on whatI could put into my life.
That was before COVID.
So it was, it was not as, you know, now there'sso much more flexibility built into our work
(06:22):
life balance, but but yeah, it's been a niceopportunity to, and I, and I thought it was
going to be by myself for a while thinking thatwas the most flexible way to be, but it turns
out that was not at all what I had, what wasthe best plan.
The best plan was to grow with the rightpeople.
Ultimately COVID forced me to do that.
So I really started to think about how to growa firm that was flexible and flexible for the
(06:44):
people that were on the staff too, becauseeverybody, everybody on our team has different
life requirements like everybody does.
And so we all have this kind of flexible, butreally intentional approach to how we're doing
architecture.
I, this reminds me, I didn't introduce you toAmanda from ThinkLab, who was just on the
(07:05):
podcast, I don't know, few weeks ago.
Very similar.
So many similarities crossover there.
Exciting.
It's just, wow.
Okay.
Well, I'm glad I asked about the architect firmbecause Right.
So yeah, now eight years in, I'm in a seasonwhere I can really dig into the business a
little more, and I've got just such a greatteam.
So it's been a very cool crescendo, I guess, offun along the way and an adventure.
(07:30):
You know?
I'd started off doing projects that were Well,I'd come from a big project background, doing
large scale municipal work and projects thathad big budgets and project managers that were
experienced.
And then when I went on my own, I just startedrunning into a lot of different types of
projects that weren't quite what I wasexpecting.
(07:50):
And so along the way, it just was a greatlearning experience to start from scratch and
to really dig into some of the clients thatneeded more education along the way.
And we've kind of built a practice now around,well, I hate to say this, but complex projects
sometimes come our way.
And, yeah, so it's, it's been fun though, justgetting to do more and more of what we love
(08:12):
along the journey.
And now we're in a really good spot.
Yeah.
Good a good spot that allows you to think aboutreward systems, which is literally when we
first talked was this
Totally new adventure.
Which is hilarious.
Now that I think about it, I'm like, we've,we've interacted multiple times and actually
I've not asked about the architecture firm allthat much other than like, I know.
(08:34):
How does this mindset that you have, whichwe're about to talk about goes into it?
But other than that, like I've not asked it.
So now silly on me for not, not thinking aboutasking.
But with that said, so you have, I don't know,what, what do you call this?
A philosophy, theory, a framework, belief, aresearch, whatever you want to call this about
(08:55):
reward systems like how that, we, asbiologically are built away that then impacts
our entire life, including the spaces that weare in.
So I'd love for you to give a little bit morecolor on that, because I'm not doing it justice
as I'm trying to explain it.
Yeah.
Well, no, it's, it's been the last four yearsI've been exploring this concept and ultimately
(09:16):
how it's changed everything for me.
It's changed how my family runs, my businessruns and how we design spaces.
So it really has made a big difference.
It started with addiction in my life.
And so what happened was, and the reason why Ihave to tell this story is it really just
doesn't make sense otherwise, unless I give youthe foundation of why I dug into this in the
(09:36):
first place.
But yeah, it was after COVID and I was tryingto cut back and I could not seem to do it.
I felt like I was in a really dangerous spotand I started researching what was going on.
And ultimately I came across a solution thatwas called the Sinclair Method for alcohol use
disorder.
And I heard it on a podcast, which is wonderfulbecause when I started understanding that I had
(10:00):
this issue, I did what I typically do, which isjust like try to control it.
And I am in control.
I'm going to figure this thing out.
But holy cow, was it harder than I had everexpected.
I was not in control like I thought I was.
And so ultimately I tried this method, whichsounded very interesting to me.
It was the only thing I knew about it was it'sgoing to block your dopamine and that was going
(10:21):
to retrain my brain into not alcohol.
And so I thought that sounds interesting, butultimately what happened was completely
unexpected.
I had thought that what was going to happen wasthat I was going to, I don't know, I guess take
the pill And then eventually I would just notlike alcohol, but I didn't think anything else
was going to get better necessarily.
(10:42):
I thought it was going to be like the times Iwasn't drinking, which was like kind of fun,
but I was like, I will do that because I wantedto live ultimately.
And so I really thought that this was worthtrying, but what happened was not that.
Instead, what happened was that I fell in loveagain with things I had didn't realize I had
fallen out of love with.
My motivation came back.
My health came back.
(11:02):
My ability to stick with stuff came back.
My creativity came back like in unexpected waysand ideas started coming to me, especially once
I started understanding the rhythm of reward.
I looked into this system because as soon asthis happened, I said, what happened?
How is it that I went from loving something somuch that I wanted it all of the time?
(11:22):
It was consuming my brain power so much, eithertrying to not do it or working my way off
because I working my way, basically overworkingto compensate for the bad things I was doing on
the weekends or at night.
And it was just this mess of things.
So how could I go from loving something so muchto literally not caring about it at all?
(11:45):
What had happened in my brain and what was thissystem that had come back online?
And ever since then, I've been uncovering thereward loop and how we get addicted to things
in the first place and understanding that thissystem that has been miscategorized as
something for pain and addiction is reallysomething that drives our motivation.
It drives our purpose and our values.
(12:06):
And when you really care for this system andgive it the things that it's designed to get to
strengthen it, which is connection, discovery,movement, and rest.
When you give it those four ingredients, youcan strengthen it and really come out with a
system that's robust and resilient againstaddiction.
Because what we found is that this world ishijacking our reward system all the time from
(12:27):
our notifications to everything that we're upagainst.
We are constantly in the business of havingpeople come at our attention and trying to get
us to consume.
And then also our screens, which are with usall the time.
So when I started researching the reward loop,it really just opened up a brand new world of
information for me.
And I understood that I needed to change a fewthings.
(12:49):
All good though.
What's weird is like, didn't require anywillpower because the system also is
responsible for willpower.
So, it's just been amazing.
I don't know if you if you wanna have any morequestions in there.
What about that was unclear?
Because there's there's still more to come.
So dive into this idea of this reward systemand, the cycle, what you said.
(13:12):
Let's walk through that a little bit.
Like, where does this start?
And where does it, like, what's the next thingand what's the next thing and how does it cycle
through your being or your brain or where,wherever
this exists?
So first I had to understand dopamine and thatdopamine was the first thing I thought about
because what I was told is it blocks dopamine.
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And I had always heard in my life that dopaminewas something that, I don't know, was a little
bit like the pleasure molecule or something toavoid.
But when I really understood dopamine, dopamineis nothing of that sort when it's used for its
true intention, which is for movement, forprogress, any goal directed behavior, for
cognitive function, for your sleep and yourmemory.
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Dopamine is responsible for so much.
So I understood right away that that wasmiscategorized, that I needed to understand
where dopamine was firing in my life.
And so that was one of the first things I didwas say, okay, look at my life and say, what
was dopamine firing towards?
And what was it not?
And how you can feel dopamine.
And it might help if I told you the story aboutwhen I first felt dopamine in its absence,
(14:20):
which is kind of weird because at first when Istarted taking the pill and I would drink,
because one of the, one of the things that the,the instructions that the doctor gave me was to
take the pill and drink during the blockade,but when you're not on the blockade, do all the
other things that you want to do more of,whether it's moving your body or exercising or
(14:40):
eating healthy, do those things outside of theblockade because that means that you're going
to want to do them more.
So that was the first clue that I had into thatthis system was plastic and trainable because
what I had heard was like once an addict,always an addict.
There's no there's no help for you.
Like
that's kind of That's the message I got fromculture.
But once I understood the system, I understoodthat dopamine could be directed and that we had
(15:03):
an opportunity to intersect where dopamine waslanding in our life.
So I ultimately looked at everywhere.
If I took out every synthetic reward, whetherit was, you know, all of our synthetics, I
don't need to mention them all.
We all know what they are.
The hang ups of the modern world that give usinstant endorphin kicks.
When we take those all away, anythingsynthetic, we're left with these pillars of
(15:28):
reward strength that really we need to have aregular diet of in order to strengthen these
systems.
I sorted out the knowledge and the science tocome up with these four pillars, which is
connection.
That's oxytocin signaling and how, when weconnect with people, it actually establishes
this synchronicity of reward.
And so connection heals.
(15:51):
Eye contact conversations can heal peoplebecause the reward system is actually connected
to so many other things.
So, we already are hearing that oxytocin heals,but it's also what keeps us connected to
things.
So, there's, and then discovery.
So, discovering new things, uncovering newadventures, making sure things stay new and
novel.
Those are all things that this system isdesigned to do.
(16:13):
It's designed for novelty, but we have noveltyat our fingertips.
So where we get our novelty is important andhow integrate that into our lives.
And then movement.
So movement is such a critical part of thisreward system loop.
And that is that there's when we move ourbodies, there's a cascade of benefits for
cognition and for our reward signaling thatkeeps us coming back to those behaviors, but we
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really need to move in joy.
And what I had always thought about movementbefore was that it was also punishment for what
we did on the weekends for over consuming.
But it's like, no, that's not really thepurpose of the system.
The system is to get us moving in rhythm andjoy, and then having cycles of rest.
So the fourth pillar is rest, but it's not justthe rest we get at night.
(16:58):
It's the rest that we get during the day inquiet moments of stillness, in letting our
minds wander.
One of the key pieces of all this is connectionto nature.
So biophilia, natural circadian rhythmsignaling, all these things go into
strengthening our reward system loops andkeeping us engaged in life.
Because when you understand the molecules ofmotivation, those are dopamine and endorphins,
(17:20):
you know how to make motivation happen.
That's been kind of, it's like the ingredientsof motivation.
Not just, they don't just come out of thin air.
They're built with intention and rhythm.
And so we all need to understand what theserhythms are.
And I realized I needed to tell my kids aboutthis, that they have these systems that can be
(17:40):
hijacked.
I realized I needed to tell the world about itbecause there's a lot of stigma behind this
system and there's silos around this systembecause people, I guess, don't want to talk
about the fact that we can be hijacked.
And then there's, you know, for ourcommunities, we need to understand that we need
to make places for connection, discovery,movement, and rest.
And ultimately that translated into my workbecause I realized that the spaces that we
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create can foster these things and createhealthy environments that people want to come
back to.
Because that's ultimately, you know, whatbetter than to understand the science of
motivation, to understand what motivates peopleto stay connected to places and people and
programs.
When we talked about this the first time I waslike, I have not ever done the digging in upon
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why, when I wake up in the morning and take awalk, why is that day better than days that I
don't do that?
Yes.
But like when you start doing certain habits orcertain tasks or certain things you do, if you
do them enough, you start realizing, man, thisis good.
Your body starts like just naturally doing it.
So then when you went through these with me,was like, oh, that, that seems to make sense.
(18:50):
Like I I've not thought through, oh, what'shappening in my brain necessarily for this, but
very true.
And you mentioned connection, which I have beentold I'm fairly good connecting with people.
Yes, is you something I've been told that I'mgood at.
I frequently say like, did I get a hug when Imeet the person in person, if I've only met
(19:12):
them digitally, then I probably did a good jobconnecting them.
Right?
Yes, exactly.
I'm actually owner of an architecture firm thatI met for the first time in a different state.
So I walked into his office and he, we gave ahug to each other and it just like very like,
oh yeah, like I must have done something rightin this regard to, to be connected, which for
me, I love people.
So like inherently it's, it builds on itself.
(19:34):
Right?
So all of these aspects that you went through,I was like, well, these make perfect sense or
rest.
Like the times that like, I've gone throughcertainly plenty of times in my life where it's
like, I'm just head down.
Let me just work hardcore like COVID, like forme, like, especially at first it was like
nonstop, just grind.
And it was like this is not healthy at all.
(19:56):
Like, this is horrible.
And then like, I'm actually going to take acouple walks during the day.
And it's like, oh, those days are inherentlymore productive, even though it's like, but
you're working less time, but it's like, yeah,but the time that I am working, I am way more
engaged, which changes
the whole thing.
Yeah.
I'm a, I'm a unofficial case study for that.
(20:16):
Like what you're talking about is absolutelytrue.
Yeah.
I think, and I think a lot of us felt that wayafter COVID and, I think I've gotten a lot of
clues along the way and the time and experienceduring COVID was one of those times when we
did, in our family, we had to change everythingbecause it was, we had three kids at home, they
were young and we were doing the homeschoolthing and everything had to change, but it
(20:39):
didn't make me realize that there are somerhythms that we can establish to make these
things better.
We suddenly all got faced with the samequestion mark, like, what do we do with our
days if we're not going to leave this house?
You know, how do we structure things in a waythat makes sense?
And ultimately, found that, yes, I'm way moreproductive when this system is online.
And so I yeah.
(20:59):
I can now understand exactly the biology ofwhy, and I understand now that when we do these
things, especially when we're connecting withothers, we're actually helping their reward
system signal, which means they're getting somepositive feedback in their biology, which
ultimately leads to wellness and well-being forthose people.
So we're all doing good when we can strike up aconversation with the stranger sometimes.
(21:22):
And in our meetings, just making sure our teamsare feeling connected to each other is such an
important thing.
If you want an engaged team connection cannotbe a, an afterthought.
Yeah.
I'm big, huge believer in that.
Yeah.
But you mentioned them being online, thesystems being online.
Does that mean they go on and offline?
Like what does that, what, how does, how doesthat work?
(21:44):
Well, they're always working for us.
So I'll tell you a little bit about the rewardloop too, because I know you asked about that
and I think it's helpful to understand thispiece of it, but they're always working for us
no matter what you cannot turn your rewardsystem off.
Okay.
So they're always online, but they're builtbased on what we put into that as inputs.
And so it starts with a cue.
So imagine you have a box that's a gift and yousee it.
(22:08):
That's the cue that something is special insidethe box and you get a little sense of dopamine
when you see a present and that little sense ofanticipation.
I was going to tell you the story about whendopamine wasn't there.
So let me tell you about the reward loop, thenI'll tell you about when dopamine wasn't there
for me when I first acknowledged it.
So the reward loop starts with this cue, thisgift, and that gives you a sense of forward
(22:29):
motion.
It says you wanna go and do something aboutthis.
That sense of forward motion.
You don't move forward at all.
If your dopamine signals are blocked, you donot move period.
Like there's, this is part of it.
So you have to move forward.
You have to open the gift and inside the giftis something that is a reward right now.
It could be something terrible in the gift, butmost of the time when we experience a gift that
(22:49):
has its wrapped like a beautiful present, weexperience something lovely inside that we
want.
Okay?
Yeah, totally.
So we open the gift and then we imagine insidethe gift is this bite of as a beautiful
chocolate, your favorite kind of chocolate,maybe a few different options of chocolate and
you pick out your favorite one and you take abite and there's kind of a warmth in your
palate, your body kind of relaxes a little bit,that those chocolate is perfectly synchronized
(23:13):
to our reward loop with the fat and the sugar.
And so if you can get a sense of how thatfeeling might feel, that sense of like warmth
and when you love chocolate, if you lovechocolate, if you're human and you love
chocolate, then you know how this feels.
That's when that's that system starts to play.
And so there's endorphins that happen.
Those endorphins land on mu opioid receptors.
(23:34):
And what they do is that those mu opioidreceptors basically signal another wave of
dopamine through some other methods, but Idon't need to get into the super detail on
that, but there's another wave of dopamine thatsignals that makes us keep wanting to do that.
And it solidifies in our memory what we want tocome back to.
(23:54):
So now since we experienced that reward, we'realways going to see a present and we're going
to keep reinforcing that message that thatpresent is somewhere we find joy.
And then the last part of this step is that ourRAS, our reticular activating system, will
based on where we install those templates.
So basically those are templates for what wewanna come back to.
(24:14):
Our RAAS will filter out our environment tofind the most important bits of information to
show to our conscious brain.
And that basically will direct us to the signalof going back to where we've installed our
memories.
So what's fascinating about this is that wehave a little bit of control.
We have a lot of control under I'm undersellingit.
(24:35):
This reward system is an incredibly powerfulsystem that we have more control of over than
we imagine, because what we can do is we caninstall emotive visions into this system
through visioning and intentionality.
We can say, I am going to imagine myself in asuccessful position in whatever we're doing, or
imagine the vision of where we're headed.
(24:56):
And if we install that with enough emotiveresonance, your brain can't tell the
difference.
And what happens is your RAS, which is Mr.
RAS, who we call it in my presentations, hewill filter out like a bouncer, the most
important bits of information and give them toyour conscious brain to say, this is what's
most important.
Come back to it all the time.
(25:16):
And so when I took Naltrexone, which is part ofthe Sinclair method, it actually put a little
pillow on top of my mu opioid receptors for asix to eight hour window, depending on the dose
and your doctor's prescription.
That's what it will do.
And it will put a little pillow on that.
In doing that, your receptor is protected.
So when I was drinking, I was agonizing thisreceptor over and over again, telling my brain
(25:41):
that's where you want to come back to over andover again.
And so the receptor down regulated and becamedesensitized to the regular gifts of life,
connection, discovery, movement, and rest.
So I wasn't able to receive those signals thesame way because my receptors were compromised
and they needed healing.
This is biological system.
So by protecting those receptors, they cameback online and I've, I understood what really
(26:04):
happened in my body is that they basicallygained strength again.
And so by the time I was done with alcohol andthe pill, I was able to feel alive again.
And so I'll just tell you about the first timewhen I really got the sense of dopamine, if
you're interested in that story.
Okay.
I was, it was like a week into this experimentbecause at that point I was like, if it doesn't
(26:24):
work, I'm going back to drinking.
I did not want to quit drinking at that time.
And I didn't tell anyone but my husband, but itwas about two weeks in.
I felt like I had a little bit of a superpowerwhen I went to events, but I was on my way home
one night and I stopped at Target and got someM and M's and I had already taken the pill
because I was just following the same routine.
Like the doctor said, take the pill and I wouldtake it before I got home and I would still
(26:45):
have my wine at night.
And so I was, I had picked up a pack of M's andgotten to the car and I was on the blockade.
So I tasted the first, and it tasted tasteddelicious, like in my mouth, but it was the
second.
So I was still excited about getting the firstset of dope.
Like the dopamine was still there to get me toopen the M's and to get me to put them in my
(27:07):
mouth, but it was the second round of dopamine.
It was the mu opioid receptors that wereblocked that didn't burst that second round of
dopamine, which I felt the absence of that forthe first time in my brain.
Was like, where is that?
Wait a second.
Like now I get it.
Now I get what that feeling is.
And I could kind of identify it.
(27:28):
And that was really helpful for me tounderstand, you know, where our brain was
firing.
And it turns out this system is incrediblyplastic and that none of us are stuck or broken
beyond repair that we can there's really someincredible things that we're finding in
neuroscience that that give a hope to a lot ofpeople.
That's wild.
Yeah.
(27:50):
So you're, you're taking these, these block,these dopamine blockers.
You're taking
that essentially.
Yeah.
Mean, anything you did in that, whatever thatwindow of time, you wouldn't get the second,
the second pop of dopamine, right?
Like that's essentially what is happening.
Yes, exactly.
So I wasn't encouraged to keep going on thatcycle.
(28:11):
And so it wasn't installing in my memoryanymore that that was the place to go back to.
And so, because it was an intentional timing,which is part of this Sinclair method
methodology, it was, it was basically aroundthe time of drinking so that eventually I just
stopped caring about alcohol, which wasprofound.
It was like, it was like an unaddiction way inaddiction.
So how
(28:32):
long, how long, so you start this process.
How long until you're like, oh, I'm, I don'tthink about
why.
Yeah.
You I might remember the day actually.
Have dopamine pop anymore.
Yeah.
For a while, I almost couldn't tell.
It's almost a subtle thing that happens in yourbody.
Almost like addiction happens because honestly,all of us, if you understand how susceptible we
(28:55):
are to addictions in our lives, like they comeup sneaky, you know, the the doom scrolling and
the stuff.
So addiction happened.
It creeped up on me kind of sneakily along theyears, but but in the same way, it kind of
snuck out of my life in a way.
Like I would leave glasses on the counter andbe like, I didn't finish that last night.
I just got bored of doing that.
And so it was about eight months in where Ireally felt like this freedom that was
(29:20):
unbelievable.
Actually when I read, I've been reading somebooks, there's some other, a lot of people that
have done this method before and they all feelthat sense of freedom at a certain point and
the gratitude of that.
Because when you feel like you're in chains andthen you're like free of it, it's unbelievable,
the feeling of gratitude I felt for that.
So it was about eight months in, but it happensdifferently for everyone.
(29:41):
This is not medical advice.
Course, this is just my experience, but yeah,it was
given that are not suggesting medical advice onthe podcast.
Absolutely not.
It's just, this is my experience of how ithappened.
And ultimately it isn't about the pill at all.
What it's about is understanding the systembehind this.
What I feel like if I would've, if I would'vebeen really educated from a young age, I was
(30:06):
told from a young age that I was at risk, thatit was, you know, it was devastating in my
bloodline and in my community.
And so I knew, I knew that it was something Ishould be cautious of, but I thought because I
wasn't as exposed to it in childhood, that Iwouldn't have this problem.
But yeah, it's just really important for peopleto understand this from a young age that
(30:26):
there's these reward loops that can get offtrack and that when we really want to
strengthen them, we need to give them it's notjust about what you take out of the system,
it's about the inputs, the connection,discovery, movement, and rest that can
strengthen the system and keep you.
And also the emotive visions that you kind ofgive yourself along the way to make sure that
your dopamine fires in the direction you wantit to fire.
(30:48):
And I knew that I wanted to tell people aboutthis one, because there's just, there's a lot
of suffering around this system and there'sbillions and billions that are spent on
hijacking this system in industries, you know,the ones, the big ones.
And so there's not very, there's no onestanding behind the antidote to the system.
So Naltrexone is a generic drug and SinclairMethod is not widely known because of that.
(31:11):
And so I knew I needed a spokesperson and Iwanted to save lives ultimately.
So I knew I wanted to tell people my story.
I just had no idea how much it would influencearchitecture in spaces and that it would go it
was going to be it was going to strengthen mybusiness as well because it turns out that the
spaces we design can equally have an impact onthe system.
(31:33):
And we really need to build spaces more aboutthe rhythms of our lives and that people need
to know this.
It's fun to have an advocacy message and alsobe able to tell people about how we can design
their spaces to make people want to come backto them by really understanding how the system
works.
Now that, so, I I've been thinking and talkinga lot about distractions
(31:55):
lately, right?
Distractions come in all flavors, right?
It's like, you talked about your phone, youtalk about like alcohol drugs, or you talk
about just like social interaction.
Like I, I like me, I'm very connected topeople, but it's like, but if I do that all the
time, I won't be able to do the, the biggerthings that I'm trying to achieve because I'm,
it's pulling my time away.
You only have so time.
(32:16):
Right?
So this is like, and doing that thing, what isthe reaction that occurs?
Right?
So it's like, oh, I stayed up late and watchTV.
What's that?
It means I probably didn't get up very early,which means I probably didn't have time for a
walk, which then it didn't, you know, it's thisstacking of like, oh, your one decision that
you made that was a distraction from the goalsthat you have has now spiraled down.
(32:38):
So that a lot of that thought process is whatI'm hearing of like, yeah, you're just getting
this reward system hijacked instead of doingthe thing that like, oh man, you would really
love this if you would just get through the getthe distractions out of the way.
Right.
This is easy.
But when I think of spaces then, how do, how doyou create spaces that touch on these four
(33:00):
pillars across the board?
Like what, what has to go through you and therest of your designers' thoughts of saying
like, how do we take this idea that also, howdid you, maybe the question of like, how did
you tell the team this of saying, the way,we're going all in.
Let's dive in.
So maybe that question first, but then second,how do you actually design those spaces?
(33:22):
Yeah.
So at the same time, as I was kind of goingthrough this personal journey of discovery
around the system and knowing that I reallyneeded to understand it.
For my own good.
Right.
And I was gonna write this book, but at thesame time we were going through, the EOS
process at, at the office.
So EOS, EOS company yourselves.
It's a wonderful thing.
(33:43):
And Katie is our director of operations and wereally took the time to start thinking about
the business and what we, what we wanted it tolook like.
And ultimately it fed into each other in a way.
And we really decided that we wanted to make abusiness.
Our mission is to craft places for connection,discovery, movement, rest for thriving and
(34:05):
resilient communities.
We know that this heals communities, it healsbusinesses, and it heals families.
And so we knew we wanted to tell that.
It also, we told the staff, so before I everlike came out to the world, it's just a weird
thing, but when you kind of unleash a newbrand, they're like, Oh, that's a cool
marketing scheme.
It's like, it's so much different than that forus.
(34:29):
And so for us, it started with just a team ofsaying, Hey, this is what we believe really
works to make communities stick together.
This is the places that we want to contributeto the world.
These are the projects and the people we want.
We want projects that really care about thepeople that are in them that care about their
well-being and places that feel sticky andresonant and comfortable and connected to
(34:50):
nature.
We want to make places like this.
And so it wasn't hard for the team to comearound to that.
Like once you understand the principles of whatthis is about, it's about making places that
are enjoyable, that don't stress us out, thatrespond to our biology and our natural
circadian rhythms and make sure we have viewsto nature.
And, you know, it's not hard to convince peoplethat this is a good thing because you feel when
(35:12):
you're in a space that feels good.
And we've kind of gone even beyond the neuro,there's kind of this undercurrent right now of
trauma informed design and that, but we believethat every space that we go into should be
something that responds to everyone's nervoussystem and this reward system, and that we can
do better with our architecture to make placesfor rest, for connection.
(35:33):
And these are just simple strategies.
It's like we're putting art that's textural andmakes people wanna feel it, or there's light
that changes behind the artwork.
So there's a sense of novelty when you comeback to a place.
There's more transparency and connection to theoutdoors, and there's more opportunities for
connections in different ways.
We know that connection happens side to side,face to face, in different seating postures.
(35:57):
There's more variety in where we can sit andwhere we can work during the day because we
know that it's very important for us to havenovelty when we want dopamine to fire again.
So we're really thinking about what's the mostproductive and innovative we can make the
people in these spaces.
And that is for office spaces, but for placeslike religious sanctuaries, how do we make
(36:19):
places where people feel really engaged inworship?
It's that we wanna make places for rest outsideof the worship, for connection outside of the
worship space.
So there's, it applies to different buildingtypes in different ways, but every single
client we have wants to build places thatpeople wanna come back to.
So when you understand the rhythms of rewardsand the science behind that, you can really
(36:40):
design places that respond to those things andkeep endorphin signaling strong and not stress
people out and get them off kilter, but reallyfeel warm and resonant.
And there's real ways to do that.
The fractals in nature just blow my mind howhealing they can be.
And when we look at the science, it's amazingto understand those connections.
(37:02):
When you are going to either when you're,you're bidding out work or if you are, you have
designed something when you, when, when whoeverthe if it's the builder or if it's the owner,
whoever, whoever's gonna be the tenant,whoever's gonna be in the space, like, do you
have to explain like, Hey, we did this becauseof this and this, this, or is it like, they
(37:25):
just feel it?
Like, I
think I mentioned to you when we talked beforethat, I went to the Clayco office here in
Phoenix
and
like, it just felt amazing.
I couldn't explain why, like the different, itjust felt different.
And I couldn't, I didn't understand why nowagain, it's beautifully done and all of those
(37:45):
components, but like the one, they have onecorner where it's like, you see Camelback and
it's like, and it's like, there's couches thereand it's just like such a, like it gives you a
feeling, right?
Like it gets like, and I don't work there.
No, I'm not even working there.
So I'm not even in it all the time.
And it's just like, I felt immediately thatlike, oh, this feels different.
It's just, it was just very much that.
(38:07):
So is it, I have to explain why we did thesethings or is it more like, oh no, no, you're
going to just feel it because your systems aregoing to be like, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing,
bing, bing.
Yeah.
Well, it's amazing because it's not just thearchitecture too.
It's the experience even before people get tothere.
So that's at the global ambassador and I'vevisited there before and they'll send you even
(38:28):
before you go this personalized letter thatsays, come to the valet, welcome Michelle.
Like when I walk in, welcome Michelle.
How, you know, there's this whole experience ofthe approach to the building.
So we have to understand that what we do inarchitecture starts before you get out of the
car.
So from the signage to the way the landscapeworks, it's not something that we step foot
(38:51):
into the building and we're immediatelysometimes that happens, but honestly, the
passage from the car to the building can bejust as important.
And so the programs in the space can be just asimportant too.
You know, if you go back there and work thereevery day, you're going to feel a little
different.
So there should be some novelty to the space tomake you still feel like you want to come back
to it.
So maybe some different programs.
(39:11):
That's why it's so important when you'relooking at retail spaces to make the
programmatic elements.
A critical part of making a space last is thata space feels really good when it's new and you
will feel that in a beautiful space.
But when you go back to it and you want peopleto work there and come into work every day in
the office, that's a different solution.
That solution comes through programs, throughnovelty, through discovery and through rest and
(39:37):
connection.
So yeah, it just depends, but I can do a lotwith architecture by making spaces feel
wonderful and by using new technologies too,like circadian lighting and different postures
for the desks.
We're literally turning desks and saying, No,we need this person to have transparent view
because when you're in a space, you need to beconnected to a space more than 20 feet away
(40:00):
every twenty seconds or every twenty minutesfor twenty seconds.
That's both for eye health and for cognitivehealth and for dopamine signaling.
So we're trying to get everybody in the officeand every time you're inside to have some
connection to a lively space beyond the fourwalls that we're in.
We're thinking innovatively, but it's, youknow, it's a both and thing.
I think the education piece of it is helpfulbecause then people understand what we're going
(40:25):
for and it's much easier for us to have thatconversation along the way.
But yeah, the spaces, you know, we designbeautiful stuff, so the spaces will
automatically feel good, I think.
And there's a lot of architects doing just suchbeautiful work in this area.
So I know that they're, they're making spacesthat do these things and doing the best they
can.
But when we can work alongside the theoccupants of this space and the people running
(40:49):
the programs, we can really make places singonce they really understand the logic of this.
Wow.
Okay.
That's, that's amazing.
This has been amazing.
This has been so much fun.
Can't wait to see you next to ask you more andmore questions about
being a deeper
and and deeper.
Oh yeah, no, no, we've just scratched thesurface, which
But I'm well it's been fun.
(41:09):
I think we got it all out there, at least allthe good stuff.
For sure.
So, before we circumvent, is there a good wayif somebody wanted to get ahold of you that
they could do that?
Sure.
Yeah.
We've got two websites.
So Moore Studio is the commercial architecturefirm, we do all kinds of different projects
from corporate to religious, to municipal, toparks, that sort of thing.
(41:31):
And you can see our projects on there.
And you can also see a little bit about theprinciples of connection, discovery, movement,
and rest on that website.
So it's www.morstudio.net.
And then you can find me atmydopamineblueprint.com.
That's where the advocacy efforts towards theSinclair method and any resources you may need
(41:51):
around the Sinclair method.
There's some links on there for anyone who elsewants to connect on that.
And also, so that'swww.mydopamineblueprint.com.
And yeah, I hope people just keep followingalong.
There'll be more opportunities to connect.
No, for sure.
Is there anything else you'd like to make surethat people know before you say goodbye?
(42:13):
No, just know that you have these, thesewonderful reward systems or more systems as we
call them.
And so just, yeah, I hope that everybody whohears this can maybe do a little bit more
connection, discovery, movement, rest in theirlives.
A little bit more connection to you.
Exactly.
Got
it.
Love
that.
No more.
That's awesome.
Listeners, this has been fascinating for me.
(42:34):
Very exciting as you can only imagine and hearin my voice.
Until next time, adios.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(42:56):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(43:19):
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
Instead, what happened was that I fell in loveagain with things I had didn't realize I had
(00:05):
fallen out of love with.
My motivation came back.
My health came back.
My ability to stick with stuff came back.
My creativity came back like in unexpected waysand ideas started coming to me, especially once
I started understanding the rhythm of reward.
I looked into this system because as soon asthis happened, I said, what happened?
How is it that I went from loving something somuch that I wanted it all of the time?
(00:28):
It was consuming my brain power so much, eithertrying to not do it or working my way off
because I working my way, basically overworkingto compensate for the bad things I was doing on
the weekends or at night, and it was just thismess of things.
So how could I go from loving something so muchto literally not caring about it at all?
(00:51):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of BuildingScale, specifically the building connection
series where I get to talk to people that Imeet here in the valley, through all kinds of
different ways.
And, shout out to Shelly Bryant who introducedme to Michelle Rakowski, who is the person that
I have an amazing conversation with today.
(01:12):
She shares her journey into architecture,discusses the early passion for it, as well as
her evolution, with the firm, and then divesinto, this concept of the reward system and
explains how dopamine and motivationtransformed not only her professed,
(01:32):
professional life, but also her her personalAnd she tells these amazing stories, and she
outlines the four pillars of reward, which isconnection, discovery, movement, and rest, and
then how she emphasizes the importance ofdesigning spaces that, foster those elements
kind of across the board and how you actuallyenhance well-being.
(01:56):
It's super impactful discussion.
When I had somebody doing the clips for theshow, they're like, oh my god.
This episode is so fire, which I was then alsoexcited that somebody said it was fire because
that's what the kids say.
Nonetheless, really, really excited, to havethis episode out and, get to share this,
(02:21):
amazing discussion that I had with Michellewith you.
And, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
So here's Michelle Rakowski from MORE Studiosand talking about the reward system.
So, Michelle, I don't know if I've actuallyasked you this because we've talked so much
about reward system purpose, all that amazingstuff that you're
doing.
Yeah.
Why did
(02:41):
why did you get into architecture?
Like, why I own a firm?
Like, why go down that path?
Well, yeah, architecture was always part of theplan as far back as I remember.
So when I was, in second grade, I was an artistand I was also good at math.
And so my parents said, well, I've got a planfor you, so you're not a starving artist.
And they said, go into architecture school.
(03:03):
And so yeah.
I mean, I was from a very young age, focused onthat.
I dropped out of school out of high school, notdropped out.
Oh my gosh.
Made sound like a dropout.
I actually transferred to the community collegeto take credits, for architecture so I could
get ahead of the game.
In fact, I just pulled out the first section Iever drew at 17 years old the other day when I
(03:24):
was cleaning out my office.
And I had drawn drawn a little puppy in thesection.
It was yeah.
But back when there was blueprints.
So I actually did run blueprints through themachine and and did all that.
I found my first set of drawings.
So I've been I think I've been an architect,you know, my whole life, it feels like, but
that was
From the beginning.
(03:44):
Yeah.
Grade two.
Also, yeah.
Didn't drop out.
Went to community college.
Very different.
Very different.
I was like, holy shit.
We got a big story to tell.
Let's get
down this.
There's actually quite a story behind that, butI just don't know if I should tell it on this
format.
But yes, I did.
(04:05):
So I, when I went to community college, therewas also a little blow up around my house and
they were like, honey, it's time for you togrow up.
And they basically said, You gotta get out ofthe house, and it was a win win for everybody,
so I was it was just a very good thing, and Igot to go to community college, which was very
nice, and, my parents and I stayed in touch andin very good relationships because of the move,
(04:29):
So it was all a good thing, but at the time itfelt a little dramatic for me to move out at 17
and go to the community college and start myarchitecture life.
Wow.
That's, that that's very intriguing.
I will dig into those stories maybe anothertime.
But Over maybe over some sort of bonfiresomewhere.
Yes.
That sounds great.
(04:49):
That sounds amazing.
So always been an architect at heart.
So love design, right?
Like that is so that you could have done thatanywhere though.
Like you could have gone to an architect firmand just wrote out your years there Why doing
go and do your own thing?
Like why build more?
Well, at that time it was a matter of, I was, Iwas at my firm fourteen years and I loved it.
(05:14):
I loved it.
We just, I was in a really good spot, but atthe same time I had gotten burnt out and
overwhelmed by all of the pressures of life.
Had, I was having our third kiddo at the time.
And so I really thought that I would take aback seat to architecture and just design my
life.
But what happened was about a year in, it wasclear that that wasn't exactly how it wasn't
(05:35):
working out exactly how I had planned.
And it just felt like my husband and I were ondifferent pages.
I had just, I loved architecture and it just,it, I needed a break, I think ultimately.
And so walking away and having our third kiddoand we renovated this house during that time.
So I was pretty busy.
And about a year into that, I just, I knew Ineeded to solve something and it's actually in
(05:58):
the middle of the night when I woke up and Isaid I was going to start more studio.
The name came to me, the whole thing at 3AM.
And I said, that's it.
I'm going to have, have a firm that flexes withthe seasons of my life so that I can still do
what I love and grow and flex it based on whatI could put into my life.
That was before COVID.
So it was, it was not as, you know, now there'sso much more flexibility built into our work
(06:22):
life balance, but but yeah, it's been a niceopportunity to, and I, and I thought it was
going to be by myself for a while thinking thatwas the most flexible way to be, but it turns
out that was not at all what I had, what wasthe best plan.
The best plan was to grow with the rightpeople.
Ultimately COVID forced me to do that.
So I really started to think about how to growa firm that was flexible and flexible for the
(06:44):
people that were on the staff too, becauseeverybody, everybody on our team has different
life requirements like everybody does.
And so we all have this kind of flexible, butreally intentional approach to how we're doing
architecture.
I, this reminds me, I didn't introduce you toAmanda from ThinkLab, who was just on the
(07:05):
podcast, I don't know, few weeks ago.
Very similar.
So many similarities crossover there.
Exciting.
It's just, wow.
Okay.
Well, I'm glad I asked about the architect firmbecause Right.
So yeah, now eight years in, I'm in a seasonwhere I can really dig into the business a
little more, and I've got just such a greatteam.
So it's been a very cool crescendo, I guess, offun along the way and an adventure.
(07:30):
You know?
I'd started off doing projects that were Well,I'd come from a big project background, doing
large scale municipal work and projects thathad big budgets and project managers that were
experienced.
And then when I went on my own, I just startedrunning into a lot of different types of
projects that weren't quite what I wasexpecting.
(07:50):
And so along the way, it just was a greatlearning experience to start from scratch and
to really dig into some of the clients thatneeded more education along the way.
And we've kind of built a practice now around,well, I hate to say this, but complex projects
sometimes come our way.
And, yeah, so it's, it's been fun though, justgetting to do more and more of what we love
(08:12):
along the journey.
And now we're in a really good spot.
Yeah.
Good a good spot that allows you to think aboutreward systems, which is literally when we
first talked was this
Totally new adventure.
Which is hilarious.
Now that I think about it, I'm like, we've,we've interacted multiple times and actually
I've not asked about the architecture firm allthat much other than like, I know.
(08:34):
How does this mindset that you have, whichwe're about to talk about goes into it?
But other than that, like I've not asked it.
So now silly on me for not, not thinking aboutasking.
But with that said, so you have, I don't know,what, what do you call this?
A philosophy, theory, a framework, belief, aresearch, whatever you want to call this about
(08:55):
reward systems like how that, we, asbiologically are built away that then impacts
our entire life, including the spaces that weare in.
So I'd love for you to give a little bit morecolor on that, because I'm not doing it justice
as I'm trying to explain it.
Yeah.
Well, no, it's, it's been the last four yearsI've been exploring this concept and ultimately
(09:16):
how it's changed everything for me.
It's changed how my family runs, my businessruns and how we design spaces.
So it really has made a big difference.
It started with addiction in my life.
And so what happened was, and the reason why Ihave to tell this story is it really just
doesn't make sense otherwise, unless I give youthe foundation of why I dug into this in the
(09:36):
first place.
But yeah, it was after COVID and I was tryingto cut back and I could not seem to do it.
I felt like I was in a really dangerous spotand I started researching what was going on.
And ultimately I came across a solution thatwas called the Sinclair Method for alcohol use
disorder.
And I heard it on a podcast, which is wonderfulbecause when I started understanding that I had
(10:00):
this issue, I did what I typically do, which isjust like try to control it.
And I am in control.
I'm going to figure this thing out.
But holy cow, was it harder than I had everexpected.
I was not in control like I thought I was.
And so ultimately I tried this method, whichsounded very interesting to me.
It was the only thing I knew about it was it'sgoing to block your dopamine and that was going
(10:21):
to retrain my brain into not alcohol.
And so I thought that sounds interesting, butultimately what happened was completely
unexpected.
I had thought that what was going to happen wasthat I was going to, I don't know, I guess take
the pill And then eventually I would just notlike alcohol, but I didn't think anything else
was going to get better necessarily.
(10:42):
I thought it was going to be like the times Iwasn't drinking, which was like kind of fun,
but I was like, I will do that because I wantedto live ultimately.
And so I really thought that this was worthtrying, but what happened was not that.
Instead, what happened was that I fell in loveagain with things I had didn't realize I had
fallen out of love with.
My motivation came back.
My health came back.
(11:02):
My ability to stick with stuff came back.
My creativity came back like in unexpected waysand ideas started coming to me, especially once
I started understanding the rhythm of reward.
I looked into this system because as soon asthis happened, I said, what happened?
How is it that I went from loving something somuch that I wanted it all of the time?
(11:22):
It was consuming my brain power so much, eithertrying to not do it or working my way off
because I working my way, basically overworkingto compensate for the bad things I was doing on
the weekends or at night.
And it was just this mess of things.
So how could I go from loving something so muchto literally not caring about it at all?
(11:45):
What had happened in my brain and what was thissystem that had come back online?
And ever since then, I've been uncovering thereward loop and how we get addicted to things
in the first place and understanding that thissystem that has been miscategorized as
something for pain and addiction is reallysomething that drives our motivation.
It drives our purpose and our values.
(12:06):
And when you really care for this system andgive it the things that it's designed to get to
strengthen it, which is connection, discovery,movement, and rest.
When you give it those four ingredients, youcan strengthen it and really come out with a
system that's robust and resilient againstaddiction.
Because what we found is that this world ishijacking our reward system all the time from
(12:27):
our notifications to everything that we're upagainst.
We are constantly in the business of havingpeople come at our attention and trying to get
us to consume.
And then also our screens, which are with usall the time.
So when I started researching the reward loop,it really just opened up a brand new world of
information for me.
And I understood that I needed to change a fewthings.
(12:49):
All good though.
What's weird is like, didn't require anywillpower because the system also is
responsible for willpower.
So, it's just been amazing.
I don't know if you if you wanna have any morequestions in there.
What about that was unclear?
Because there's there's still more to come.
So dive into this idea of this reward systemand, the cycle, what you said.
(13:12):
Let's walk through that a little bit.
Like, where does this start?
And where does it, like, what's the next thingand what's the next thing and how does it cycle
through your being or your brain or where,wherever
this exists?
So first I had to understand dopamine and thatdopamine was the first thing I thought about
because what I was told is it blocks dopamine.
(13:33):
And I had always heard in my life that dopaminewas something that, I don't know, was a little
bit like the pleasure molecule or something toavoid.
But when I really understood dopamine, dopamineis nothing of that sort when it's used for its
true intention, which is for movement, forprogress, any goal directed behavior, for
cognitive function, for your sleep and yourmemory.
(13:55):
Dopamine is responsible for so much.
So I understood right away that that wasmiscategorized, that I needed to understand
where dopamine was firing in my life.
And so that was one of the first things I didwas say, okay, look at my life and say, what
was dopamine firing towards?
And what was it not?
And how you can feel dopamine.
And it might help if I told you the story aboutwhen I first felt dopamine in its absence,
(14:20):
which is kind of weird because at first when Istarted taking the pill and I would drink,
because one of the, one of the things that the,the instructions that the doctor gave me was to
take the pill and drink during the blockade,but when you're not on the blockade, do all the
other things that you want to do more of,whether it's moving your body or exercising or
(14:40):
eating healthy, do those things outside of theblockade because that means that you're going
to want to do them more.
So that was the first clue that I had into thatthis system was plastic and trainable because
what I had heard was like once an addict,always an addict.
There's no there's no help for you.
Like
that's kind of That's the message I got fromculture.
But once I understood the system, I understoodthat dopamine could be directed and that we had
(15:03):
an opportunity to intersect where dopamine waslanding in our life.
So I ultimately looked at everywhere.
If I took out every synthetic reward, whetherit was, you know, all of our synthetics, I
don't need to mention them all.
We all know what they are.
The hang ups of the modern world that give usinstant endorphin kicks.
When we take those all away, anythingsynthetic, we're left with these pillars of
(15:28):
reward strength that really we need to have aregular diet of in order to strengthen these
systems.
I sorted out the knowledge and the science tocome up with these four pillars, which is
connection.
That's oxytocin signaling and how, when weconnect with people, it actually establishes
this synchronicity of reward.
And so connection heals.
(15:51):
Eye contact conversations can heal peoplebecause the reward system is actually connected
to so many other things.
So, we already are hearing that oxytocin heals,but it's also what keeps us connected to
things.
So, there's, and then discovery.
So, discovering new things, uncovering newadventures, making sure things stay new and
novel.
Those are all things that this system isdesigned to do.
(16:13):
It's designed for novelty, but we have noveltyat our fingertips.
So where we get our novelty is important andhow integrate that into our lives.
And then movement.
So movement is such a critical part of thisreward system loop.
And that is that there's when we move ourbodies, there's a cascade of benefits for
cognition and for our reward signaling thatkeeps us coming back to those behaviors, but we
(16:37):
really need to move in joy.
And what I had always thought about movementbefore was that it was also punishment for what
we did on the weekends for over consuming.
But it's like, no, that's not really thepurpose of the system.
The system is to get us moving in rhythm andjoy, and then having cycles of rest.
So the fourth pillar is rest, but it's not justthe rest we get at night.
(16:58):
It's the rest that we get during the day inquiet moments of stillness, in letting our
minds wander.
One of the key pieces of all this is connectionto nature.
So biophilia, natural circadian rhythmsignaling, all these things go into
strengthening our reward system loops andkeeping us engaged in life.
Because when you understand the molecules ofmotivation, those are dopamine and endorphins,
(17:20):
you know how to make motivation happen.
That's been kind of, it's like the ingredientsof motivation.
Not just, they don't just come out of thin air.
They're built with intention and rhythm.
And so we all need to understand what theserhythms are.
And I realized I needed to tell my kids aboutthis, that they have these systems that can be
(17:40):
hijacked.
I realized I needed to tell the world about itbecause there's a lot of stigma behind this
system and there's silos around this systembecause people, I guess, don't want to talk
about the fact that we can be hijacked.
And then there's, you know, for ourcommunities, we need to understand that we need
to make places for connection, discovery,movement, and rest.
And ultimately that translated into my workbecause I realized that the spaces that we
(18:05):
create can foster these things and createhealthy environments that people want to come
back to.
Because that's ultimately, you know, whatbetter than to understand the science of
motivation, to understand what motivates peopleto stay connected to places and people and
programs.
When we talked about this the first time I waslike, I have not ever done the digging in upon
(18:26):
why, when I wake up in the morning and take awalk, why is that day better than days that I
don't do that?
Yes.
But like when you start doing certain habits orcertain tasks or certain things you do, if you
do them enough, you start realizing, man, thisis good.
Your body starts like just naturally doing it.
So then when you went through these with me,was like, oh, that, that seems to make sense.
(18:50):
Like I I've not thought through, oh, what'shappening in my brain necessarily for this, but
very true.
And you mentioned connection, which I have beentold I'm fairly good connecting with people.
Yes, is you something I've been told that I'mgood at.
I frequently say like, did I get a hug when Imeet the person in person, if I've only met
(19:12):
them digitally, then I probably did a good jobconnecting them.
Right?
Yes, exactly.
I'm actually owner of an architecture firm thatI met for the first time in a different state.
So I walked into his office and he, we gave ahug to each other and it just like very like,
oh yeah, like I must have done something rightin this regard to, to be connected, which for
me, I love people.
So like inherently it's, it builds on itself.
(19:34):
Right?
So all of these aspects that you went through,I was like, well, these make perfect sense or
rest.
Like the times that like, I've gone throughcertainly plenty of times in my life where it's
like, I'm just head down.
Let me just work hardcore like COVID, like forme, like, especially at first it was like
nonstop, just grind.
And it was like this is not healthy at all.
(19:56):
Like, this is horrible.
And then like, I'm actually going to take acouple walks during the day.
And it's like, oh, those days are inherentlymore productive, even though it's like, but
you're working less time, but it's like, yeah,but the time that I am working, I am way more
engaged, which changes
the whole thing.
Yeah.
I'm a, I'm a unofficial case study for that.
(20:16):
Like what you're talking about is absolutelytrue.
Yeah.
I think, and I think a lot of us felt that wayafter COVID and, I think I've gotten a lot of
clues along the way and the time and experienceduring COVID was one of those times when we
did, in our family, we had to change everythingbecause it was, we had three kids at home, they
were young and we were doing the homeschoolthing and everything had to change, but it
(20:39):
didn't make me realize that there are somerhythms that we can establish to make these
things better.
We suddenly all got faced with the samequestion mark, like, what do we do with our
days if we're not going to leave this house?
You know, how do we structure things in a waythat makes sense?
And ultimately, found that, yes, I'm way moreproductive when this system is online.
And so I yeah.
(20:59):
I can now understand exactly the biology ofwhy, and I understand now that when we do these
things, especially when we're connecting withothers, we're actually helping their reward
system signal, which means they're getting somepositive feedback in their biology, which
ultimately leads to wellness and well-being forthose people.
So we're all doing good when we can strike up aconversation with the stranger sometimes.
(21:22):
And in our meetings, just making sure our teamsare feeling connected to each other is such an
important thing.
If you want an engaged team connection cannotbe a, an afterthought.
Yeah.
I'm big, huge believer in that.
Yeah.
But you mentioned them being online, thesystems being online.
Does that mean they go on and offline?
Like what does that, what, how does, how doesthat work?
(21:44):
Well, they're always working for us.
So I'll tell you a little bit about the rewardloop too, because I know you asked about that
and I think it's helpful to understand thispiece of it, but they're always working for us
no matter what you cannot turn your rewardsystem off.
Okay.
So they're always online, but they're builtbased on what we put into that as inputs.
And so it starts with a cue.
So imagine you have a box that's a gift and yousee it.
(22:08):
That's the cue that something is special insidethe box and you get a little sense of dopamine
when you see a present and that little sense ofanticipation.
I was going to tell you the story about whendopamine wasn't there.
So let me tell you about the reward loop, thenI'll tell you about when dopamine wasn't there
for me when I first acknowledged it.
So the reward loop starts with this cue, thisgift, and that gives you a sense of forward
(22:29):
motion.
It says you wanna go and do something aboutthis.
That sense of forward motion.
You don't move forward at all.
If your dopamine signals are blocked, you donot move period.
Like there's, this is part of it.
So you have to move forward.
You have to open the gift and inside the giftis something that is a reward right now.
It could be something terrible in the gift, butmost of the time when we experience a gift that
(22:49):
has its wrapped like a beautiful present, weexperience something lovely inside that we
want.
Okay?
Yeah, totally.
So we open the gift and then we imagine insidethe gift is this bite of as a beautiful
chocolate, your favorite kind of chocolate,maybe a few different options of chocolate and
you pick out your favorite one and you take abite and there's kind of a warmth in your
palate, your body kind of relaxes a little bit,that those chocolate is perfectly synchronized
(23:13):
to our reward loop with the fat and the sugar.
And so if you can get a sense of how thatfeeling might feel, that sense of like warmth
and when you love chocolate, if you lovechocolate, if you're human and you love
chocolate, then you know how this feels.
That's when that's that system starts to play.
And so there's endorphins that happen.
Those endorphins land on mu opioid receptors.
(23:34):
And what they do is that those mu opioidreceptors basically signal another wave of
dopamine through some other methods, but Idon't need to get into the super detail on
that, but there's another wave of dopamine thatsignals that makes us keep wanting to do that.
And it solidifies in our memory what we want tocome back to.
(23:54):
So now since we experienced that reward, we'realways going to see a present and we're going
to keep reinforcing that message that thatpresent is somewhere we find joy.
And then the last part of this step is that ourRAS, our reticular activating system, will
based on where we install those templates.
So basically those are templates for what wewanna come back to.
(24:14):
Our RAAS will filter out our environment tofind the most important bits of information to
show to our conscious brain.
And that basically will direct us to the signalof going back to where we've installed our
memories.
So what's fascinating about this is that wehave a little bit of control.
We have a lot of control under I'm undersellingit.
(24:35):
This reward system is an incredibly powerfulsystem that we have more control of over than
we imagine, because what we can do is we caninstall emotive visions into this system
through visioning and intentionality.
We can say, I am going to imagine myself in asuccessful position in whatever we're doing, or
imagine the vision of where we're headed.
(24:56):
And if we install that with enough emotiveresonance, your brain can't tell the
difference.
And what happens is your RAS, which is Mr.
RAS, who we call it in my presentations, hewill filter out like a bouncer, the most
important bits of information and give them toyour conscious brain to say, this is what's
most important.
Come back to it all the time.
(25:16):
And so when I took Naltrexone, which is part ofthe Sinclair method, it actually put a little
pillow on top of my mu opioid receptors for asix to eight hour window, depending on the dose
and your doctor's prescription.
That's what it will do.
And it will put a little pillow on that.
In doing that, your receptor is protected.
So when I was drinking, I was agonizing thisreceptor over and over again, telling my brain
(25:41):
that's where you want to come back to over andover again.
And so the receptor down regulated and becamedesensitized to the regular gifts of life,
connection, discovery, movement, and rest.
So I wasn't able to receive those signals thesame way because my receptors were compromised
and they needed healing.
This is biological system.
So by protecting those receptors, they cameback online and I've, I understood what really
(26:04):
happened in my body is that they basicallygained strength again.
And so by the time I was done with alcohol andthe pill, I was able to feel alive again.
And so I'll just tell you about the first timewhen I really got the sense of dopamine, if
you're interested in that story.
Okay.
I was, it was like a week into this experimentbecause at that point I was like, if it doesn't
(26:24):
work, I'm going back to drinking.
I did not want to quit drinking at that time.
And I didn't tell anyone but my husband, but itwas about two weeks in.
I felt like I had a little bit of a superpowerwhen I went to events, but I was on my way home
one night and I stopped at Target and got someM and M's and I had already taken the pill
because I was just following the same routine.
Like the doctor said, take the pill and I wouldtake it before I got home and I would still
(26:45):
have my wine at night.
And so I was, I had picked up a pack of M's andgotten to the car and I was on the blockade.
So I tasted the first, and it tasted tasteddelicious, like in my mouth, but it was the
second.
So I was still excited about getting the firstset of dope.
Like the dopamine was still there to get me toopen the M's and to get me to put them in my
(27:07):
mouth, but it was the second round of dopamine.
It was the mu opioid receptors that wereblocked that didn't burst that second round of
dopamine, which I felt the absence of that forthe first time in my brain.
Was like, where is that?
Wait a second.
Like now I get it.
Now I get what that feeling is.
And I could kind of identify it.
(27:28):
And that was really helpful for me tounderstand, you know, where our brain was
firing.
And it turns out this system is incrediblyplastic and that none of us are stuck or broken
beyond repair that we can there's really someincredible things that we're finding in
neuroscience that that give a hope to a lot ofpeople.
That's wild.
Yeah.
(27:50):
So you're, you're taking these, these block,these dopamine blockers.
You're taking
that essentially.
Yeah.
Mean, anything you did in that, whatever thatwindow of time, you wouldn't get the second,
the second pop of dopamine, right?
Like that's essentially what is happening.
Yes, exactly.
So I wasn't encouraged to keep going on thatcycle.
(28:11):
And so it wasn't installing in my memoryanymore that that was the place to go back to.
And so, because it was an intentional timing,which is part of this Sinclair method
methodology, it was, it was basically aroundthe time of drinking so that eventually I just
stopped caring about alcohol, which wasprofound.
It was like, it was like an unaddiction way inaddiction.
So how
(28:32):
long, how long, so you start this process.
How long until you're like, oh, I'm, I don'tthink about
why.
Yeah.
You I might remember the day actually.
Have dopamine pop anymore.
Yeah.
For a while, I almost couldn't tell.
It's almost a subtle thing that happens in yourbody.
Almost like addiction happens because honestly,all of us, if you understand how susceptible we
(28:55):
are to addictions in our lives, like they comeup sneaky, you know, the the doom scrolling and
the stuff.
So addiction happened.
It creeped up on me kind of sneakily along theyears, but but in the same way, it kind of
snuck out of my life in a way.
Like I would leave glasses on the counter andbe like, I didn't finish that last night.
I just got bored of doing that.
And so it was about eight months in where Ireally felt like this freedom that was
(29:20):
unbelievable.
Actually when I read, I've been reading somebooks, there's some other, a lot of people that
have done this method before and they all feelthat sense of freedom at a certain point and
the gratitude of that.
Because when you feel like you're in chains andthen you're like free of it, it's unbelievable,
the feeling of gratitude I felt for that.
So it was about eight months in, but it happensdifferently for everyone.
(29:41):
This is not medical advice.
Course, this is just my experience, but yeah,it was
given that are not suggesting medical advice onthe podcast.
Absolutely not.
It's just, this is my experience of how ithappened.
And ultimately it isn't about the pill at all.
What it's about is understanding the systembehind this.
What I feel like if I would've, if I would'vebeen really educated from a young age, I was
(30:06):
told from a young age that I was at risk, thatit was, you know, it was devastating in my
bloodline and in my community.
And so I knew, I knew that it was something Ishould be cautious of, but I thought because I
wasn't as exposed to it in childhood, that Iwouldn't have this problem.
But yeah, it's just really important for peopleto understand this from a young age that
(30:26):
there's these reward loops that can get offtrack and that when we really want to
strengthen them, we need to give them it's notjust about what you take out of the system,
it's about the inputs, the connection,discovery, movement, and rest that can
strengthen the system and keep you.
And also the emotive visions that you kind ofgive yourself along the way to make sure that
your dopamine fires in the direction you wantit to fire.
(30:48):
And I knew that I wanted to tell people aboutthis one, because there's just, there's a lot
of suffering around this system and there'sbillions and billions that are spent on
hijacking this system in industries, you know,the ones, the big ones.
And so there's not very, there's no onestanding behind the antidote to the system.
So Naltrexone is a generic drug and SinclairMethod is not widely known because of that.
(31:11):
And so I knew I needed a spokesperson and Iwanted to save lives ultimately.
So I knew I wanted to tell people my story.
I just had no idea how much it would influencearchitecture in spaces and that it would go it
was going to be it was going to strengthen mybusiness as well because it turns out that the
spaces we design can equally have an impact onthe system.
(31:33):
And we really need to build spaces more aboutthe rhythms of our lives and that people need
to know this.
It's fun to have an advocacy message and alsobe able to tell people about how we can design
their spaces to make people want to come backto them by really understanding how the system
works.
Now that, so, I I've been thinking and talkinga lot about distractions
(31:55):
lately, right?
Distractions come in all flavors, right?
It's like, you talked about your phone, youtalk about like alcohol drugs, or you talk
about just like social interaction.
Like I, I like me, I'm very connected topeople, but it's like, but if I do that all the
time, I won't be able to do the, the biggerthings that I'm trying to achieve because I'm,
it's pulling my time away.
You only have so time.
(32:16):
Right?
So this is like, and doing that thing, what isthe reaction that occurs?
Right?
So it's like, oh, I stayed up late and watchTV.
What's that?
It means I probably didn't get up very early,which means I probably didn't have time for a
walk, which then it didn't, you know, it's thisstacking of like, oh, your one decision that
you made that was a distraction from the goalsthat you have has now spiraled down.
(32:38):
So that a lot of that thought process is whatI'm hearing of like, yeah, you're just getting
this reward system hijacked instead of doingthe thing that like, oh man, you would really
love this if you would just get through the getthe distractions out of the way.
Right.
This is easy.
But when I think of spaces then, how do, how doyou create spaces that touch on these four
(33:00):
pillars across the board?
Like what, what has to go through you and therest of your designers' thoughts of saying
like, how do we take this idea that also, howdid you, maybe the question of like, how did
you tell the team this of saying, the way,we're going all in.
Let's dive in.
So maybe that question first, but then second,how do you actually design those spaces?
(33:22):
Yeah.
So at the same time, as I was kind of goingthrough this personal journey of discovery
around the system and knowing that I reallyneeded to understand it.
For my own good.
Right.
And I was gonna write this book, but at thesame time we were going through, the EOS
process at, at the office.
So EOS, EOS company yourselves.
It's a wonderful thing.
(33:43):
And Katie is our director of operations and wereally took the time to start thinking about
the business and what we, what we wanted it tolook like.
And ultimately it fed into each other in a way.
And we really decided that we wanted to make abusiness.
Our mission is to craft places for connection,discovery, movement, rest for thriving and
(34:05):
resilient communities.
We know that this heals communities, it healsbusinesses, and it heals families.
And so we knew we wanted to tell that.
It also, we told the staff, so before I everlike came out to the world, it's just a weird
thing, but when you kind of unleash a newbrand, they're like, Oh, that's a cool
marketing scheme.
It's like, it's so much different than that forus.
(34:29):
And so for us, it started with just a team ofsaying, Hey, this is what we believe really
works to make communities stick together.
This is the places that we want to contributeto the world.
These are the projects and the people we want.
We want projects that really care about thepeople that are in them that care about their
well-being and places that feel sticky andresonant and comfortable and connected to
(34:50):
nature.
We want to make places like this.
And so it wasn't hard for the team to comearound to that.
Like once you understand the principles of whatthis is about, it's about making places that
are enjoyable, that don't stress us out, thatrespond to our biology and our natural
circadian rhythms and make sure we have viewsto nature.
And, you know, it's not hard to convince peoplethat this is a good thing because you feel when
(35:12):
you're in a space that feels good.
And we've kind of gone even beyond the neuro,there's kind of this undercurrent right now of
trauma informed design and that, but we believethat every space that we go into should be
something that responds to everyone's nervoussystem and this reward system, and that we can
do better with our architecture to make placesfor rest, for connection.
(35:33):
And these are just simple strategies.
It's like we're putting art that's textural andmakes people wanna feel it, or there's light
that changes behind the artwork.
So there's a sense of novelty when you comeback to a place.
There's more transparency and connection to theoutdoors, and there's more opportunities for
connections in different ways.
We know that connection happens side to side,face to face, in different seating postures.
(35:57):
There's more variety in where we can sit andwhere we can work during the day because we
know that it's very important for us to havenovelty when we want dopamine to fire again.
So we're really thinking about what's the mostproductive and innovative we can make the
people in these spaces.
And that is for office spaces, but for placeslike religious sanctuaries, how do we make
(36:19):
places where people feel really engaged inworship?
It's that we wanna make places for rest outsideof the worship, for connection outside of the
worship space.
So there's, it applies to different buildingtypes in different ways, but every single
client we have wants to build places thatpeople wanna come back to.
So when you understand the rhythms of rewardsand the science behind that, you can really
(36:40):
design places that respond to those things andkeep endorphin signaling strong and not stress
people out and get them off kilter, but reallyfeel warm and resonant.
And there's real ways to do that.
The fractals in nature just blow my mind howhealing they can be.
And when we look at the science, it's amazingto understand those connections.
(37:02):
When you are going to either when you're,you're bidding out work or if you are, you have
designed something when you, when, when whoeverthe if it's the builder or if it's the owner,
whoever, whoever's gonna be the tenant,whoever's gonna be in the space, like, do you
have to explain like, Hey, we did this becauseof this and this, this, or is it like, they
(37:25):
just feel it?
Like, I
think I mentioned to you when we talked beforethat, I went to the Clayco office here in
Phoenix
and
like, it just felt amazing.
I couldn't explain why, like the different, itjust felt different.
And I couldn't, I didn't understand why nowagain, it's beautifully done and all of those
(37:45):
components, but like the one, they have onecorner where it's like, you see Camelback and
it's like, and it's like, there's couches thereand it's just like such a, like it gives you a
feeling, right?
Like it gets like, and I don't work there.
No, I'm not even working there.
So I'm not even in it all the time.
And it's just like, I felt immediately thatlike, oh, this feels different.
It's just, it was just very much that.
(38:07):
So is it, I have to explain why we did thesethings or is it more like, oh no, no, you're
going to just feel it because your systems aregoing to be like, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing,
bing, bing.
Yeah.
Well, it's amazing because it's not just thearchitecture too.
It's the experience even before people get tothere.
So that's at the global ambassador and I'vevisited there before and they'll send you even
(38:28):
before you go this personalized letter thatsays, come to the valet, welcome Michelle.
Like when I walk in, welcome Michelle.
How, you know, there's this whole experience ofthe approach to the building.
So we have to understand that what we do inarchitecture starts before you get out of the
car.
So from the signage to the way the landscapeworks, it's not something that we step foot
(38:51):
into the building and we're immediatelysometimes that happens, but honestly, the
passage from the car to the building can bejust as important.
And so the programs in the space can be just asimportant too.
You know, if you go back there and work thereevery day, you're going to feel a little
different.
So there should be some novelty to the space tomake you still feel like you want to come back
to it.
So maybe some different programs.
(39:11):
That's why it's so important when you'relooking at retail spaces to make the
programmatic elements.
A critical part of making a space last is thata space feels really good when it's new and you
will feel that in a beautiful space.
But when you go back to it and you want peopleto work there and come into work every day in
the office, that's a different solution.
That solution comes through programs, throughnovelty, through discovery and through rest and
(39:37):
connection.
So yeah, it just depends, but I can do a lotwith architecture by making spaces feel
wonderful and by using new technologies too,like circadian lighting and different postures
for the desks.
We're literally turning desks and saying, No,we need this person to have transparent view
because when you're in a space, you need to beconnected to a space more than 20 feet away
(40:00):
every twenty seconds or every twenty minutesfor twenty seconds.
That's both for eye health and for cognitivehealth and for dopamine signaling.
So we're trying to get everybody in the officeand every time you're inside to have some
connection to a lively space beyond the fourwalls that we're in.
We're thinking innovatively, but it's, youknow, it's a both and thing.
I think the education piece of it is helpfulbecause then people understand what we're going
(40:25):
for and it's much easier for us to have thatconversation along the way.
But yeah, the spaces, you know, we designbeautiful stuff, so the spaces will
automatically feel good, I think.
And there's a lot of architects doing just suchbeautiful work in this area.
So I know that they're, they're making spacesthat do these things and doing the best they
can.
But when we can work alongside the theoccupants of this space and the people running
(40:49):
the programs, we can really make places singonce they really understand the logic of this.
Wow.
Okay.
That's, that's amazing.
This has been amazing.
This has been so much fun.
Can't wait to see you next to ask you more andmore questions about
being a deeper
and and deeper.
Oh yeah, no, no, we've just scratched thesurface, which
But I'm well it's been fun.
(41:09):
I think we got it all out there, at least allthe good stuff.
For sure.
So, before we circumvent, is there a good wayif somebody wanted to get ahold of you that
they could do that?
Sure.
Yeah.
We've got two websites.
So Moore Studio is the commercial architecturefirm, we do all kinds of different projects
from corporate to religious, to municipal, toparks, that sort of thing.
(41:31):
And you can see our projects on there.
And you can also see a little bit about theprinciples of connection, discovery, movement,
and rest on that website.
So it's www.morstudio.net.
And then you can find me atmydopamineblueprint.com.
That's where the advocacy efforts towards theSinclair method and any resources you may need
(41:51):
around the Sinclair method.
There's some links on there for anyone who elsewants to connect on that.
And also, so that'swww.mydopamineblueprint.com.
And yeah, I hope people just keep followingalong.
There'll be more opportunities to connect.
No, for sure.
Is there anything else you'd like to make surethat people know before you say goodbye?
(42:13):
No, just know that you have these, thesewonderful reward systems or more systems as we
call them.
And so just, yeah, I hope that everybody whohears this can maybe do a little bit more
connection, discovery, movement, rest in theirlives.
A little bit more connection to you.
Exactly.
Got
it.
Love
that.
No more.
That's awesome.
Listeners, this has been fascinating for me.
(42:34):
Very exciting as you can only imagine and hearin my voice.
Until next time, adios.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(42:56):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(43:19):
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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