Leadership, Team Dynamics, and Scalability with Brian Lotz - Lotz Custom Carpentry

Brian Lotz shares his journey from early life to founding Lotz Custom Carpentry and merging with AM Woodland. He discusses the current size and operations of his business, emphasizing leadership development and team dynamics. The conversation explores organizational structure, budgeting, and workforce management, highlighting the collaborative design process and technology's role in scalability. Brian addresses generational work ethic and workforce trends, offering insights into continuous improvement and advice for his younger self.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
One of the things you you'd mentioned was aboutgrowing people and, like, how like, you want to
grow people.
Like, what what do you what do you want?
And it's like, I wanna grow people.
What what does that why does that matter, Iguess?
And then how do you do that?
Growing people.
I I I have a deep care for people and growth.
I mean, it all stems from my faith as aChristian, and I wanna leave people better off

(00:22):
than than where they're at, or just be aninfluence on how I carry myself.
I believe building better people builds betterbusiness.
Right?
Whether it's in their own life, for ourbusiness, if they decide to leave, if I can
help them progress their life, that's avictory.

(00:43):
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and

(01:07):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business

(01:30):
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weekly,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IP cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to building scale dot net slash help.
Today's guest is Brian Lotz, founder of LotzCustom Carpentry.

(01:52):
Brian is a seasoned entrepreneur, skilledcraftsman, and proud family man.
He's been married for 16 years and is a devotedfather to his 5 children.
In addition to Lotz Custom Carpentry, Brian isalso part owner of AM Woodland Outdoor Design
and Pro Edge Painting, reflecting his diverseexpertise across multiple trades.
Lots is a design build firm specializing inresidential construction and outdoor living

(02:16):
spaces.
From new construction, additions, and remodelsto designing and crafting outdoor spaces that
elevate everyday life.
And Woodland focuses on commercial landscaping,including outdoor designs and landscaping
maintenance.
ProEdge adds a finishing touch withprofessional grade painting services.
Brian's businesses are built on the foundationof communication, trust, and execution,

(02:38):
ensuring every client enjoys a superiorexperience.
And with all that said, Brian, welcome to theshow.
Thanks for having me, guys.
Absolutely.
We met Brian at a Cultivate event, which isreally, really cool.
And so luckily enough, he he won, our raffle,which is, always exciting stuff.
And so, hopefully, that raffle has tasted goodto you over over the past couple months here,

(03:01):
Brian.
But, with with all this fun stuff I said, youtell us the real story.
How did you get into construction, and and tellus about the business?
Yeah.
So, my story starts, pretty young in age.
My my dad owned a small roofing company.
On top of that, he built custom homes that werefor us to live in for 2 years to, alleviate the

(03:24):
tax repercussion, and then we would sell it andrent a house while we built another one and
rinse and repeat for a very long cycle.
Yeah.
Didn't have to pay for a mortgage anymore.
Kinda grew up around the trades and, justalways found it fascinating and just hard work
outside is always enjoyable.
And, so just kinda have that drive.

(03:46):
I actually went to school to I majored inpsychology and math.
Went to college as long as I felt I needed toto gain what I needed and got out of that.
Took my you know, I I was working with my dad'sfriends who are contractors, single guys, doing
remodels on the weekends, kitchens, bathrooms,roofs, additions, framing houses, whatever,

(04:10):
gaining knowledge and things of what I likedand what I didn't like.
I was in the middle of college.
I played basketball in college, and I had metwho is now my wife.
We started hanging out for the summer, starteddating.
And about a week after that, she was offered ajob at a hotel remodel company based out of
Dallas who the project manager was her cousin.

(04:34):
The other employees was her second cousin, andher cousin Steve, the PM, was looking to bring
a crew out to Maui to remodel hotels.
So, I was like, well, if you guys need anybody,I could be available.
And didn't have the opportunity right away.
My cousin, Joe, ended up getting on board, andthey offered the other position to my other

(04:54):
cousin, Justin, Joe's older brother, who is nowone of our business partners.
And Justin was managing a local restaurantchain at the time and felt that that growth
trajectory is something he was more interestedin than going to Maui, and I gladly took his
place when it was offered.
Yeah.
That was a hard hard sell there, I bet.

(05:15):
So I was like, well, if the the opportunity isthere, I'll I'll leave school.
I'll leave basketball and go do that because Ifelt like it was kind of a once in a lifetime
opportunity.
So lo and behold, a week after starting arelationship with who is now my wife, we me,
her, my cousin, Joe, who I grew up with, he wasmy best friend.

(05:36):
My wife's second cousin, that was ourconstruction crew for 4 months out in Maui.
And, it was as cool as it could imagine itbeing working a lot, hanging out on the beaches
and every night and rode to and sleepingoutside and doing whatever you wanna do in
Hawaii.
It was definitely once in a lifetimeopportunity, but a lot of hard work, fast

(05:59):
paced, stuck with that company for a coupleyears, came back to the mainland as you call it
out there.
The mainland.
Yes.
Some of our, employees that we hired from Mauiactually had never seen snow before or anything
like that.
So it's a awesome culture out there for sure.
But, stuck with that company for a coupleyears, ended up getting married, having our

(06:20):
first daughter.
I took a remodel job working for a contractorlocally.
Did that for about 9 months, right around thefirst economic crash.
Well, not first.
The first in my lifetime, 2008 ish.
And, through that, just, you know, not reallygetting raises or promotions, just being told
that you're lucky you have a job, which totallyunderstand and can appreciate now more than

(06:44):
then for sure, but I had a family to raise.
So started my own business.
I'm just kinda side work because from there, Itook a job at corporate, Target.
I was a facility manager fixing up stores.
Fixed up the 1st store within, like, 3 months,did all the remodeling that I could possibly
get my hands on.
And then I grew relatively bored and took a lotof naps, and that really wasn't working out too

(07:08):
well for for my my life.
It it helped pay the bills.
It was good hours to allow me to keep workingon the side and, built up enough, backlog to
where I convinced my wife I was ready toprovide for the family on my own, and way we
went, 2009.
Start out of the garage.

(07:29):
You're solo entrepreneur doing everything.
So was that way for a long time.
Hired, you know, my my dad and my cousin,Justin, to help me out when we needed another
hand and built it up to where hired firstemployee, fired first employee, hired second
employee, and, kept second employee.

(07:50):
And he's he's our superintendent now.
He's been with us for a long time, over adecade.
So so just kept organically growing, just,trying to do things the the best way I could
with the experience that I had and keptlearning on the job a lot.
I did all my own designs, all my own pencildrafting, and my wife did the books, and we
just built a nice little business, andorganically, it grew.

(08:13):
One of the first jobs I ever took was a masterbathroom and, bargain of the beauty of
bargaining from a homeowner's perspective atthat time in the careers is amazing because I
went in.
They were supplying all the material.
I was like, it's $10,000 for me to do thismaster bathroom remodel.
They're like, well, we wanna give you 5.

(08:34):
And I was like, okay.
I'll do it for 5.
And I took that, and I threw pretty much all ofit right back into lead generation.
So at the time, HomeAdvisor was a decentprogram.
Kinda stepped away from that a long time ago,but it generated a lot of more lead
opportunity.

(08:55):
And, I just kept building the business withreferrals and new leads and, and grew it,
really.
So it didn't really fall into any particularniche.
Just kinda did whatever was available.
A lot of remodels, bathrooms, kitchens,basements, decks, stuff like that.
My cousin, Justin, who gave me the opportunityto work in Maui, ended up joining forces with

(09:19):
AM Woodland.
Dan and Andy, my business partners.
And he was their first project manager.
Justin actually had his own landscaping companyfor a few years, was getting ready to move to
Arizona, and they convinced him to stay for itwas, like, $45 a year to run their production.
So it was nothing that money was a a persuasionof for him, it was more of opportunity and what

(09:45):
he saw and what they were doing.
It was similar to the same thing I saw when weget to that point of the conversation.
So he was working with them for a few years,and, they were having trouble finding good
carpenters.
And he threw my name in the hat, and we startedworking together on some projects.
We were doing their pergolas and decks andpavilions and that type of stuff.

(10:08):
And they got to know me and kind of my GCbackground and and what we're able to do for
clients on a much grander scale.
And we thought like, hey.
There's a opportunity here that doesn't reallyexist in our market yet, and it's, you know, a
company that can offer new construction,additions, remodels that affect outdoor spaces

(10:31):
when it comes to pool houses or additions, andyou have to redo landscaping or, you name it, a
huge deck and waterproof, and someone wants toadd a sliding door.
Like, there's a lot of landscape contractorsout there that are really good, that GC, but
they hire out all their carpentry.
And couple of them do that successfully, and weactually work for a lot of them actually.

(10:53):
But a lot of them are like, I don't wanna dothat.
Hands off.
Here's the plan.
You go hire your own carpenter, and then thehomeowner ends up being a GC.
And that can be a headache for clients,especially when they're investing good money
outside on luxury items.
They don't really wanna have to manage and havecontractors pointing fingers back at
contractors.
Like, why are you doing this?

(11:13):
You messed up that.
Now who's responsible?
No one's responsible.
So, we saw a huge opportunity to really combineall of that to really offer service where we
can step in with one face, one point ofcontact, go through the design process, make
sure it's exactly what they want, face it outif need be, and really just give them exactly

(11:33):
what they're looking for underneath one roof.
And all they gotta do is make decisions on whatthey wanna see.
And even if they don't wanna make decisions, wecan do it for them.
And, ultimately, it's worked out really well.
Haven't really gone to market on it too muchyet.
We're really starting that process currently.
And so we're expecting a a lot of positives outof this next phase in our career here.

(11:59):
So but that's exciting.
So, yeah, so we we merged.
I merged my company with AIM Woodland 5 yearsago, and we had our kinks to work through.
Andy started his business the same way Istarted mine.
I think he was by himself and built it up.
And so a lot of, like, the growing points painpoints for me were I never had to be a project

(12:21):
manager solely.
I never had to be a superintendent solely.
I never had to do all these individual tasksfocused on that.
I was everybody.
I was all everything.
I'm an entrepreneur.
Right?
So I could do it all, but I can't reallyexplain how to do one thing perfectly and
repeat it, rinse and rinse and repeat.
So that was a a learning process curve gettingthings down in writing, SOPs, procedures,

(12:45):
software, CRMs, getting away from Excel, allthose spreadsheets.
So making things easy to replicate.
And we've seen the fruits of that labor come tofruition this year, and it's been phenomenal.
And we're really now just about finding theright people to keep plugging in so that

(13:05):
everybody who is involved and has been involvedcan keep growing adequately by replacing
themselves properly so we can all continuestepping forward.
So
No.
That that's Correct.
Quite the tale.
That's that's it's interesting, the thesimilarities of your business to then merge.
Also, all the the family connections, which Ilove, especially somebody named Justin that

(13:27):
wants to move to Arizona that, you know, thathits my heart very, very closely.
So what does the business look like now?
Like, size wise, like, what people wise, what'sthat look like?
I know that you're rolling out this combinedbrand effectively, across, but what what does
it currently look like?
So during peak season, we're about a 120,employees.
Right now, it's
That's more than just you and your wife in yourgarage, by the way.

(13:49):
I would have been.
Not a mathematician.
I didn't go to college for math by any meansimagination.
As a man as a smart man that you are, with themathematician, but that's the math I know.
2 isn't as much as a 140.
Yeah.
It has folded over a few times for sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
But it's, it's great.
I mean, like, right now, we we still employ alot of people during off season for landscape.

(14:12):
On my side that I that I run, we don't slowdown.
We're busier than ever right now.
We always have the fortunate problem of peoplewanting us to work during the holidays, so we
tend to stay busy all the time.
We'll take a couple weeks off during Christmasand New Year's.
If our field staff wants to, we offer that tothem.
And, if they wanna work, then we make ourproject managers come in and manage.
But, you know, it's, it's probably, like, 80 to90 right now, and then we'll pick back up in in

(14:38):
the spring.
And, you know, revenue wise, I think we'll endup around, like, 18,000,000 this year.
And, you know, we're we're looking to hopefullydouble within the next 2 to 3 years.
We've always very conservatively planned ourbudgets every year knowing that we're going to
supersede them organically, and that happenstime and time again.

(14:59):
We've never not had a growth period.
So slow organic growth is great growth becauseit's sustainable.
We had some rapid growth movements, whichcaused a lot of pain points, and we had to
kinda work through that, but it it's good.
So trajectory is looking really good.
We're already lining up a lot of really great qone work, which is important to start the year

(15:20):
for us.
It alleviates a lot of what we also do, whichis create our own work.
We have a an investment company we started thatwe buy houses.
We flip them.
We hold them and rent them.
We get about 40 doors right now.
So that's like the the company that we, havefun with where we just try to keep building

(15:41):
portfolio and, you know, it's, but it createswork when we need it.
So it's good.
It's not great margins, but it keeps peoplebusy.
So if we don't have to do that, q one, we startthe season out way better.
So that's kinda where we're at right now, andthings are looking very promising.
And I'm really excited about what we're reallygonna do for this next year and completely blow

(16:05):
out our very conservative budget for 2025.
Oh, I love hearing that.
That is great.
You and I have very similar mentalities aroundconservative and then blowing it out of the
water.
So kudos to you.
I want to back up for a second because you'dmerged.
And what I've heard from a lot of partnershipsor a lot of partners when they were doing it is

(16:30):
that they hated it, that they don't want to dopartnerships.
You know, the merger that happened andpartnering requires trust.
So how do you find trust with partners?
It was probably much harder for me than it wasfor them.
They already had multiple partners.
So for me, it was me and my wife, and probablyhardest for my wife because we have 5 kids.

(16:53):
And at the time of the merger, 5 years ago, wehad the 4th on the way.
Maybe he was just born.
I don't know.
He just turned 5 this year, so it's it's allwrapped around that timeline.
But she was always a a working individual andstill has that mentality.
And so it was it was probably harder for her tostep away, in that regard.

(17:16):
And we gave up a 100% ownership of our company,which is probably the hardest thing any merger
can do.
So really just understanding, like, what thatlooks like from taking a smaller piece of a
bigger pie and where it can go from there isone of the the reasons behind it.
But then as you mentioned, trust, it's that'sprobably the most important part.

(17:38):
Am I going to be able to trust that these otherindividuals have my best interest in mind as
well?
So really just getting to know them from a verypersonal level and a business level, knowing
their parents and getting to know theirfamilies, that was a big, big part of it.
We're all very like minded when it comes tobusiness.

(17:58):
We all have different strengths that we bringto the table, which is probably what makes us
very unique as partners because we can all relyon each other.
We can all go on vacation.
We can all leave.
And we know that no matter what, the company isgonna be in good hands and successfully ran and
operated.
So, yeah, really getting to know them andhaving faith in that decision as well.

(18:22):
Praying about the decision that it's the rightdecision, it goes a long way for me.
And, you know, all all signs pointed to it'sthe right opportunity, whether I could
convince, you know, some people it was orwasn't in the moment.
It is something time has told and will continueto tell that it was the right decision.

(18:45):
That concept of being the 100% owner of a$1,000,000 company compared to the 1% over of a
$1,000,000,000 company.
It's very, very different even though, youknow, the, the 100% sounds better.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So one of the issues that also comes aroundownership and partnership is accountability.
Right?

(19:05):
How do you make sure that all the partners stayaccountable?
Through conversation and, I mean, going back totrust, it's really just knowing that we're
gonna be the hardest on each other, in aprivate setting and call each other out for
things that we feel are being done wrong orhandled incorrectly or or things that could be

(19:30):
going on differently.
I don't think anyone's ever shied away frombringing up faults when they occur.
And the best part is it's never public.
Right?
That's that's the beauty of a good relationshipis especially from a ownership perspective.
We don't need to be calling each other out infront of any of our employees or anything like
that.
That's very unprofessional.

(19:51):
So we sit down every week, all 4 of us.
And we have individual meetings weekly as well,2 on twos or 1 on ones, sometimes 3 of us.
We just discuss the things that need to bediscussed, think about what we need to do to be
better.
We're all have a very similar mindset when itcomes to continued growth and always learning
more, being better, being better leaders,better husbands, better fathers, better people.

(20:14):
And, that's where the accountability comes in,is knowing that no matter what we say, it's
coming from an intent of care rather than, youknow, we're not doing good.
You're a problem.
You need to fix you.
No.
It's let's think about this, the decision thatwas made, how it could be better, what do we
need to do now to make it work, and how can webe better in the future.

(20:38):
Yeah.
One of the I definitely appreciate, definitelyappreciate the insight.
Go ahead, Justin.
One of the things you you'd mentioned was aboutgrowing people and, like, how like, you want to
grow people.
Like, what what do you what do you want?
And it's like, I wanna grow people.
What what does that why does that matter, Iguess?
And then how do you do that?
Growing people.

(20:59):
I I I have a deep care for people and growth.
I mean, it all stems from my faith as aChristian, and I wanna leave people better off
than than where they're at, or just be aninfluence on how I carry myself.
I believe building better people builds betterbusiness, right?
Whether it's in their own life for ourbusiness, if they decide to leave, if I can

(21:23):
help them progress their life, that's avictory.
I don't preach to anybody at work.
You know, if if they're if they ask and theywanna listen, sure, whatever.
I'll share what I believe, but I care moreabout just building them personally, helping
them understand what drives them, whatmotivates them, how they wanna lead their
families, how they wanna lead themselves.

(21:45):
And if we can all have that same mindset as acollective business, then we're all gonna be
helping each other.
Our my employees are now helping each other bebetter, holding each other accountable.
They understand where where we wanna go, andthey now know how to get there.

(22:07):
And they're motivated to help the peopleunderneath them progress so that they can
continue to progress too.
Because the one thing you don't wanna do isprogress to a point where you have to hire
somebody underneath you who's not gonna bedoing the same thing that you were doing or
better.
Right?
So that just creates faults within a business.
So if we can continue to have a similar mindsetof growing people, that just allows our

(22:29):
business to flourish extremely well and andcreates more opportunity for the people we have
and the people who are going to be coming in.
So I I love that mindset.
Do you have a a system in in place that youhelp grow people?
Like, is there a path, a process?
You mentioned that processes were important.
Is is there something that you're doing that isbeing more intentional other than the idea?

(22:53):
Right?
I the mindset makes tons of sense to me.
Is there things that you're doing specificallythat are being intentional with this?
Yeah.
So after diving in for about a year and a halfof, like, creating all of our SOPs and
procedures and figuring out, like, how to dothings the right way and having those growing
pains during expanded growth and not having theright people in the right places, you know, you

(23:13):
you deal with the pips and, performanceimprovement plans.
And
Mhmm.
Looking at that and how that's all laid outfrom a very organized spreadsheet way.
Like, these are the targets.
This is what you need to be doing.
This is what it needs to be completed by.
I like that.
And then I I saw it, and I went through it.
I was like, why can't we use this same platformto build people individually rather than fixing

(23:41):
a problem at hand help build peoplecontinuously.
So I developed I mean, maybe I didn't developit.
I'm sure it exists in many platforms, but Ithought of it in my own brain to, come up with
this continuous improvement plan on justmeeting with my leadership team, diving in 1st

(24:02):
and foremost on finding out why they why theywanna wake up, why they wanna exist, what
motivates them, what drives them, what makesthem wanna be better.
And once we can figure that out, we then moveforward on how do we continually get better
every single week, every single day, everysingle month to just keep promoting growth.

(24:26):
And so I meet with my leadership team.
Now it's biweekly, individually.
And at first, it was weekly.
Got to a point where I couldn't do thatcontinuously.
So now my senior project manager meets with histeam individually, and I've moved it to
biweekly meetings, but it's still it's on apersonal level.
We get into business on the back end of it, howthat personal development translates to what we

(24:52):
can be doing better in business.
But it's really allowed personal growth bothindividually and collectively as a team to
where, it it creates the trust andaccountability when you can be vulnerable in
private situations to share back and forthexperiences what you're going through on a

(25:13):
personal side of life, which isn't always easy,and some people don't really wanna share that
in some settings.
I'm very fortunate that my leadership team isopen to it, and and we have a great
relationship and trust in that regard.
It's it's more of a love affair.
Like, they all know how much we all care abouteach other, and we all want each other to be

(25:35):
successful.
And through that mentorship, that's the biggestfruit of it is now collectively, we all have
the same goal, and we all have the same mindsetof where we wanna go as a company because they
see how much we care about the people here andin return, the clients and where we wanna take

(25:58):
this company and where it can go.
So just for context here for a second, what isthe youngest in terms of, like, number of years
of the company?
What is the youngest person on your leadershipteam that you're talking about?
Youngest person on leadership team?
Well, I'm 38 and youngest leadership.
As in years at the at the company.

(26:18):
At the company.
Okay.
So, Bharat, well, if I'm thinking of projectmanagers as a leadership position, not their
supervisor, I would say 4 years.
4 years.
Okay.
A house with context.
Because when you're 1 year in a leadershipposition versus 4 years, there's some trust

(26:40):
that's been built up, right, to help with,let's say, the continuous improvement plan
because then things that are more personal canbe discussed and there's trust that it doesn't
get taken advantage of.
Right?
That's the reason why people don't share, let'ssay, struggles.
Right?
No one wants to talk about their strugglesunless they know that they're in a safe
environment to be able to share that and nottake it be taken advantage of.

(27:02):
Right?
So thank you.
Thank you for that context.
Are the conversations different at, you know,when you're a year in versus 4 years in?
It was easy to start this program with thepeople I had.
So when I say the the most the youngest is 4years.
I actually have 2 project managers that's 5months in and one weekend.

(27:23):
So in my mindset, I'm not I'm not includingthem in that leadership.
It's not against them.
It's just they're still in a phase of, I guess,tenureship with our company.
So they are in leadership positions, and I havestarted that program with the person who's been
here for about 5 months.
So he's the he's the best way I can just answerthat question there.

(27:43):
And he he has embraced it for sure.
He has no problem sharing and has openlystated.
He knows that what's said in this room is keptin this room for us to work on and help his
development.
And so I don't know how the newest member willreact to it yet.
I haven't had that opportunity to evenintroduce that part of what we do yet.

(28:07):
So, he's still kinda learning the ins and outsof the day to day stuff currently.
When when do you introduce that?
When do you actually introduce that then?
I usually give it about 4 to 6 weeks so thatthey just get settled in on the CRM.
The contracts we have, our employee, our staff,our clientele, and then we really start to

(28:30):
have, like, a 30 day review.
And then usually after that, we start to sitdown and have that type of weekly developmental
kind of relationship.
Okay.
That's a great context to know because thatmeans, you know, means that we can't start that
conversation right away.
There's some building.
There's some priorities.
And, there's a, I guess, a piecemeal of trustthat happens there before building.

(28:52):
So it's really just stacking on top before youcan really get to sort of the the CIP, the
continuous improvement plan.
Yeah.
If you will.
I think you have to understand if that person'sgonna be a right fit for your company first
before, you really start investing a whole lotof time to, you know, allow them to be someone
who's going to be with you for a long time.

(29:14):
Okay.
Appreciate the insight.
Justin, should we talk a little bit about alittle bit more about process?
I think we should.
Yes.
I like this aspect.
One thing for for you, obviously, you merge,you bring these other trades in.
Right?
So, like, go from doing these theserenovations, these new builds, all these
things, and then you start, you know, boltingon some of these things in the merge.

(29:37):
I guess the question first comes, like, why doit that way instead of being more of, like, a
paper GC?
Like, you know, obviously, you can getspecialty trades, that do all kinds of
different things for you.
Why do you see, 1, these trades specificallymake sense to bring together underneath 1,
house, in comparison to just subbing them out?

(29:58):
So for us, what we found to be the biggestbenefit of that is the brand.
So when we go out and we meet with people andwe explain to them our process, our procedure,
who we are, and who's gonna be on the job site,it's our employees.
So they they're gonna hold a higher value, andit's nothing against subs.
We have a lot of subs, great subs, greatrelationships, but we're not right now gonna

(30:22):
start a plumbing division and an electricaldivision and a drywall division and
installation division and a concrete divisionand all these things to bring everything in.
Well, not today, Brian, but
you're an entrepreneur, so that could be, like,
6 months from now.
But, no.
It, I think it means something to the clientwhen they see a crew roll up in a lots truck

(30:45):
and and a AM woodland truck knowing that that'swho they're hiring.
It's not it's not just the GC who's subbing outand lining up a bunch of different people.
It's people who come in with the same mentalitythat we have, the care, the respect.
They're representing us.
They're talking about all the things we dothrough our company.
I get a ton of great feedback from clients juston how personable and courteous our crews are,

(31:12):
and that's that's just like a stem of where wewhere we're at as owners and what we flow
through the company.
So it takes a lot of buy in, and it's notalways easy to get it to trickle through all
the way down.
But with the right process and with the rightcontinuous improvement plan, everybody gets a
feel of that, and everybody has an opportunityto sit down and truly understand and feel like

(31:37):
they're being heard throughout the company, notjust there to collect a check, but there to
have a path forward.
And when you have that opportunity as anemployee, you're going to treat your jobs and
the clients a little bit differently than justshowing up for a contract to do the work.
And so I think that's one of the biggestbenefits that we have is you're you're hiring a

(32:02):
company who is full front there to take care ofyou, and it's not a bunch of random subs coming
into your house.
It's people who we employ, and it's it's abetter experience.
It's not always easy to really truly explainit, but it creates a better experience for our
clients because everyone who steps foot inthere really cares and and knows what our

(32:25):
company is and what we do and how we can servethem.
So they're living and living and breathingreally the values of, of your company.
Well
Yeah.
So go ahead, Justin.
Yeah.
Same culture is what I was thinking.
Right?
Like, when you even if it's not a bad culture,right, or a a more toxic culture with a

(32:46):
specialty contract or a trade, whatever, it'sdifferent.
Right?
So, like, the experience they have isdifferent.
Right?
And when you have it all in house andeverybody's, you know, singing or playing to
the same sheet of music, it changes theexperience.
Right?
Like, it's just, like, it's all the same.
It's all courteous.
It's all, you know, it's all whatever that is.
Even if somebody else is doing a quality work,it it doesn't change the feeling aspect of it

(33:10):
from one to the other to the other to theother.
So that makes perfect sense to me.
You know, you actually kind of made me thinkabout this with sort of the merge and, like,
the different aspects of business.
What is are you running these differentdivisions as one single company, or are they
different individual companies?
What does the structure look like?
Even though you have the same brand, right,branding is one aspect, that doesn't mean

(33:34):
you're necessarily in the same company.
Are are they one company or individuals?
So the way we set up our budgets is it's brokenout.
So we kinda operate it from a financial andplanning perspective individually by category.
So we have our our carpentry and painting islumped into 1.

(33:57):
Our landscape production is lumped into 1, andour landscape maintenance and snow is lumped
into 1.
And so we have different budgets and targetsfor each one.
Ultimately, they, at the end of the year, allget combined for tax purposes, but it allows us
to really individually break down what ourgoals are individually per division, per crew,

(34:21):
per person so that we can set adequate goalsfor our team to hit and and achieve.
But all I mean, it it just comes down to properplanning and budgeting.
If we want that all together, it's good forsharing overhead, which we have to do anyways,
but it allows us to set proper goals for ourour teams to have realistic expectations of

(34:43):
achieving.
Okay.
So I'm guessing you have like a holding companythat holds all the different divisions.
Is that kind of how it works?
Okay.
Okay.
That so when you talk about tax purposes,that's what you're talking about.
So then, you know, are they all so there's adifference between tax structure and corporate
structures.
Right?

(35:03):
LC, for example, that is a that is both tax andcorporate structure, but an s corp is an actual
corporate structure.
Right?
Are you, like, c corp, s corp, LLC across theacross the board?
Does it matter?
There's there's differences the way they're setup just from the way we initially set them up
with the state before the merger and andbusinesses we've started after.

(35:25):
So it didn't really make sense to change a lotof things at that point in time.
And so that's kinda how we're operating now.
I know we're a corporation, and there's lots.
And quite honestly, Dan, our CFO, one of ourpartners, he handles all of the business
development end of stuff and taxes andeverything.
He's a CPA by by trade.

(35:46):
So he would be the brain to pick on how allthat goes down and what gets put where and why
and for what reasons.
But that's that's the trust aspect of thepartnership there.
You know, I know for our investment firm, weopen up a new LLC for every property we own.
And so, that's just for liability reasons pereach individual unit.

(36:06):
So, you know, it's, it's a holding group attop.
We have our different set structures on the thethree businesses below, and that's kinda how we
operate right now.
Okay.
No.
That's, very interesting to hear kind of howit's organized.
A lot of companies would, you know, at leastpeople that are running companies, they would
think that it's all done under 1, but youprobably have like 40 plus, LLCs.

(36:31):
I mean, in in all of our businesses.
Yeah.
It's it's a lot.
So more than I care to count for and it'llcontinue to grow.
I'm sure.
But,
yeah, it's,
eliminating that liability, right?
If something goes wrong with one of them, allthe other pieces of the business are affected,
which is beautiful in its own right.
Right?
Nothing's necessarily think about, but superimportant in the continuation of the overall

(36:56):
entity and brands.
I mean, quite honestly, people should beputting their houses in LLCs.
So
Oh, that that is a whole whole conversation, awhole can of worms that we can that will have
to be a completely different podcast, if we'regonna go down that can of worms.
I love that you said that.
Maybe on a on a different episode, we'll we'llexplore that.

(37:21):
You had said something about the maintenanceside, essentially the landscaping or sort of
the maintenance side, which is really thelandscaping and then the snow removal.
Right?
Do you keep the same people from on thelandscaping side?
Is that how you cash flow?
Because you're you start to keep most of yourpeople is my understanding.
Right?
Yeah.

(37:41):
Yeah.
I mean, there's 30 to 40 people who go home fora few months during the winter or take off or
whatever.
A lot of them do snow maintenance for us, ourentire office staff.
So, like, the way a lot of landscape companiesoperate and what kinda sets us apart a little
bit is they close shop for 2, 3 months, andthey're just done.
They take their break.

(38:01):
We employ our office staff year round, and soit's very beneficial for us.
And it also creates a deficit for us to somedegree because we're not cash flowing when it
comes to landscape during the winter outside ofsnow.
Fortunately, we've gotten into commercial work.

(38:22):
So we have crews down in Tennessee that justwrapped up.
We're bidding our jobs in Las Vegas, and otherparts of the country where we're able to
hopefully send crews during q one where wecould be generating large revenues on
commercial jobs where other landscape companiesin our area aren't producing anything.

(38:44):
So it just gives us a step ahead there.
But, really, for the office staff, it allows usto you know, we call it our winter task list.
We go through and we update everything we canto be better for next year.
It's not just a rinse and repeat company.
Okay.
Let's sell jobs.
Let's do as much work as we can.
Take a break.
Do it again.

(39:04):
We're always in the mindset of how can we bebetter for next year and the foreseeable
future.
So there's always tasks that our entire designteam is is working on during the off season.
Our production team is working on during theoff season and how we can just be more
efficient and more profitable every year.
How do you as in the different divisions, howdoes how does the design piece work?

(39:29):
So, like, you've got you've got lots.
You've got AM.
You've got Edge.
Right?
How do you design stuff?
Right?
How do how do you make this cohesive piecetogether when they were 3 different
entities?
So our our biggest design team is our landscapedesigners.
So we have 4 landscape designers staffedunderneath AME Woodland.

(39:50):
I got one landscape designer, constructiondesigner staffed underneath me currently.
We've had interior designers staffed.
We now outsource all of that.
So we have a group of interior designers andarchitects that we partner with, and we have in
house construction designers and in houselandscape designers.
So when it comes to the addition or the deck orthe boathouse and the pool and the patio and

(40:14):
the landscaping, it's definitely collaborativeto where I'm going to pull someone from the
landscape division and one of my team membersor an outsource team member and bring them all
together and almost mastermind the project froma design perspective.
So it's collaboration underneath one roof inprivate setting to make the full plan really

(40:39):
work.
And a lot of the the subcontractor stuff is,okay.
This is what I need and where I need it becausewe do all of the internal designing and
placement of where things are going to go, howthey're gonna be built, and what the intended
outlook is of the project.
And then we just need a licensed architect todraft the plans that we want or an interior

(41:01):
designer to help make selections andfurnishings and that type of thing.
So it's it's most of it's done in house, butit's a collaborative effort with whoever we
need to pull in to to really make the designcome to to fruition.
Got it.
So blended responsibility effectively, not oneindividual.

(41:22):
It's it's not like, watching HGTV.
You got the one designer walks in and andbuilds everything or has the full design of all
the structural pieces, all the interior design,all the pool outside, everything.
It's not magic that way.
Yeah.
I mean, if it was, I would say it's me.
Right?
Like, I I I've had the luxury of doing all thedesigning for our company for a long time, and

(41:45):
I love doing it.
And I have a, I have a knack for being able tosee what the client really wants without them
being able to articulate it properly and thenadvising my design team of, okay.
This is what I wanna see.
These are the things that I wanna see in thedesign, and then I can hand it off to sometimes

(42:07):
1, sometimes 2, sometimes 3 different designersand say, you give me a plan that has these
elements.
You give me a plan that has these elements, andyou give me a plan that has these elements.
And let's bring them all to the table and seewhich one the client likes, which one flows
best, which one, you know, operates best.
Sometimes it's a fun competitive game on whosedesign gets the chosen victory, but it allows

(42:32):
it allows different, creative minds to come upwith different plans.
It's not the same designer coming up with awhite kitchen and white countertops every
single times.
What do you Oh, man.
What do you mean it looks the same every time?
Because it does.
Yeah.
You got those builders that are like, oh, Iknow that house.
That's a so and so house.
That's a so and so house.

(42:52):
So we really listen to the clients, and, Idon't have a specific design that I'm ever tied
to.
I like to be creative and think outside the boxas much as possible.
And, fortunately, our our clients kindaunderstand that and know that.
And, you know, it's important to listen to tothe client and hear what they want and what
they think they what they think they want andwhat they think they need and then really,

(43:12):
like, showing them something that's above whatthey're expecting to, you know, really get them
to open up and be excited about what they'respending their money on.
Awesome.
I just, maybe I should send you this picture.
I just built a built in in my living room.
It has a electric fireplace and my TV above itand made this design thing.
And, initially, when we were gonna do this, itwas very different than what the eventual end

(43:37):
result was, not because it was it was justchanged many times.
My wife, had lots of ideas, and eventually wegot to the idea that I said, are you sure sure?
Because I, you know, I am not a carpenter bytrade.
So, like, when I go to build this thing, it'sgonna take me way longer in addition to I don't
exactly know what I'm doing.
Like, you can't, like, change plans midwaythrough me because, like, it it'll just be a

(44:01):
disaster.
But I'm I'll send it to you.
Maybe you can give me some pointers on, what Idid.
Yeah.
I I'll I'll take a look at it.
I'll I'll be honest.
I'll be honest.
I mean, that's the beauty of, like, doing stuffon your own too, though.
Like, for clients, we we've had clients makechanges on the fly.
You start framing up something like, maybemaybe I want this done differently.
It's like, alright.
Like, we'll do that.

(44:21):
We're not we're not hard put on sticking to theto the plan once it's started, but there's
ramifications to that as long as everybody's onthe same page, then fine.
Exactly.
I like the The ramifications was the part I wasafraid of, in my situation because I'm like,
it's already taking me 5 times as

(44:42):
long.
Oh, it's like my house.
I started with my outdoor space, and I'm like,yeah.
We're gonna have an awesome screen room.
It's not a screen room anymore.
So it turns it just keeps evolving until you'redone, and you're like, ah, it's still not done,
but now I have something 10 times differentthan what I started with.
But
that's
also the beauty of doing it yourself sometimes.

(45:02):
As I was thinking about this, this kind ofchanging process, you know, the world keeps
changing.
How do you leverage technology in your businessto help you build scale?
Technology is it was something that we weren'tusing a lot of to its potential before we
merged.
I had some awesome spreadsheets for sure.

(45:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
As good as spreadsheets are, they don't alwaysallow you to understand how much you're
recovering or what you need to be recoveringand being efficient on estimates and quotes and
capturing the things you need to capture.
So that was one of the first things weimplemented when we merged was getting a CRM in
place for us.
Amblin was already using LMN.
It's a landscape management software.

(45:45):
So we dabbled in that for a little bit.
We dabbled at builder trend for a little bit.
We looked at Procore.
We looked at you name it.
What's out there?
We we looked into it and, kind of fell back toLMN.
We had a strong base here already in place tokinda help us get it integrated, and that's
what we're currently using.
But, really, the biggest benefit of that as faras technology goes is the ability to create

(46:10):
budgets.
Not a lot of these programs have that.
They they're just estimating softwares, andyou're plugging in the numbers.
So what LMM does that we love is we can plug inevery single one of our expenses overhead,
forecasted expend expenses, anything we canthink of from bonuses to raises to new
vehicles.
I mean, you name it.

(46:30):
We plug it in, and it creates a budget force ofwhere we need to be at from from an hourly
billing perspective to recover our overhead andprofits from maintenance to snow, to
construction, to painting, to landscapeconstruction.
So everyone has a that's going back to why wekeep the budget separate because it allows us

(46:51):
to really capture what we need to individually,to allow us to still be competitive in the
market, but also recover what we need to as aorganization.
So it doesn't hide hide some of the bad thingsthat might be happening in a business.
We'll make the money somewhere else, which is areally bad
Yeah.
We don't make the grab Peter to pay Paul.
That's something we don't wanna do.

(47:15):
K.
So there was something that we talked aboutbefore we started recording, and I kinda wanna
revisit it because it was a super awesome topicthat we don't get to talk about very often.
So this is gonna be, for some people.
I think it's going to be a touchy subject.
I think it's really important to talk aboutgenerational work ethic was the topic.
And we started talking about your dad as thestart of the conversation and that he's in his

(47:38):
seventies and still working.
Right.
And likes to work.
He's a workhorse.
Yeah.
Can't do it any other way.
So, for there's been a lot of flak given toyounger generations.
I won't name any names.
Millennials.
And by the way, I'm technically a millennial.

(47:58):
Technically.
And Justin here is technically a millennial aswell.
So is there such a thing as generational workethic?
What's what's your opinion?
I think there is, but I I think it's it'sinevitable in any generation.
I see it in in older guys and younger guys andmiddle aged guys and and women, whatever it is.

(48:21):
But the the biggest gap, that I've seen hasbeen, people entering the workforce as their
current age being between 20 to 30 as of rightnow.
And I I don't know if it's, just the generationthat those kids were brought up in where you

(48:44):
have both parents working and less siblings inthe household, where maybe it's entitlement or
not having to work at a younger age to buildthat work ethic or seeing it.
There's been less blue collar workers to be anexample for kids these days too, I think.

(49:05):
There was a big push, right, like, 15, 20 yearsago if college is the only way to go.
Mhmm.
And I think that drove our industry down alittle bit as far as what we could hire for
good workforce.
And, you know, some kids just feel like they'reentitled and don't wanna work, or they come
work for a few months, put it on their resume,and go on to the next job, and they just keep

(49:28):
climbing the ladder that way, which is fine.
I mean, people can do whatever they want.
It doesn't matter.
But the the work ethic, I think, fromgenerational purposes, there was a gap about
15, 20 years ago as kids were being raised asthey were children then, didn't really have the
influence that they might have needed to enterthe workforce, which is one of the biggest

(49:53):
opportunities for kids now is there's a hugegap in work that's needed.
You know, people we need people to continuedoing the work we're doing.
It's an awesome, job and career to have,especially in the future, and, it needs to be
repopulated.
So how do you see sort of a gain in betterethic and better work ethic?

(50:21):
Is it can it be still learned even outside of,we'll call it, childhood and outside of really
the teenage years?
Yeah.
Totally.
I think so.
I think people can change.
Absolutely.
It at some degree, it takes personal motivationor understanding of what the opportunity can be
in order for someone to truly want to change orwant to buy into putting in the effort to

(50:47):
staying with the company long enough to seethat benefit happen.
And and I I think to that point, that's, like,the hardest part is getting people, training
people, and retaining people to make a companythat can last sustainably through growth
efforts to really get the benefit out of thepeople and let the people benefit from the

(51:07):
company.
It go it has to go both ways.
And a lot of times, you get you get people whowill go to a company for a couple years, gain
what they need to gain and move on.
And that works to some degree, but that's wherewe have problems in the labor force.
I mean, there's a lot of bounce around withcarpenters and painters and landscapers, and

(51:29):
they just continually circle through.
So finding good people and and we found reallygood work ethic style individuals.
It's one of our lead carpenters is in his earlytwenties, and we've trained him over the last 2
years to really flourish.
He worked for other companies before.

(51:50):
He came here, saw an opportunity where peoplewere willing to train him and teach him and
show him a path of how he can progress and makemore money and grow with our company, and he
has absolutely flourished.
And so, you know, those people still exist,obviously.
I think they exist in every generation.
It's just harder to find those people in thatage demographic.

(52:12):
Okay.
So not impossible to find work ethic in youngergenerations.
However, there needs to be some intrinsic,we'll call it ambition or there needs to be
some intrinsic motivation, knowledge gain,etcetera.
And as you see that opportunity within acompany.
And as is that motivation just as a lastquestion, I'll try to keep it short here.

(52:37):
Is it just a natural thing that happens as yousee age progression that someone becomes more
motivated in terms of work or does age havenothing to do with it?
I don't think I don't think age has much to dowith it because we've we've hired some tenured
carpenters and painters, specificallycarpenters.
I think the carpenter trade gets a wrap ofpeople who just show up when they wanna show up

(53:01):
and don't show up in 15 minutes late, 20minutes late, or whatever it may be.
And that's how it is for a lot of smallercompanies and probably larger companies,
probably all over the place.
So I think the main thing is culture.
And culture, right, is what it is.
And when they come in here, I can't tell youhow many really great carpenters we've let go

(53:28):
for that same reason where they see anopportunity and they are striving.
And then for whatever reasons, they fall intowhatever patterns that they fall into.
We don't tolerate showing up 15 minutes late orcalling in sick repetitively on Mondays, and,
you know, we work with people to correct thatand get them in the right path.

(53:50):
But if it's continued, it's a problem, and youcan't operate as the company that way.
And we don't wanna operate as a company thatway.
And so we've had countless countless carpentersthat we've had to let go who are absolutely
phenomenal carpenters.
And sure enough, they'll call us back 1 weeklater, 1 month later, 1 year later.

(54:14):
Hey.
You guys hiring again?
Can I come back?
I didn't realize how good I had it there.
You know, it's it's nice to hear that we'redoing the right things.
You know, at that point, no.
We we can't.
And I understand people could change even afterthey leave, but what precedent does that show
after we've given people up you know,opportunity 1, opportune 2, opportunity 3

(54:39):
before we have to make the decision to let themgo and then ultimately bring them back?
It doesn't sit well with other employees who'vebeen here growing and putting forth the effort
that they need to to allow our company to besuccessful.
So that's a little bit of the revolving door.
But the people who can understand it and makethe change individually to be better for

(55:02):
themselves have the biggest opportunity toflourish.
Okay.
Thank you for Continuous improvement.
The KIP, not PIP, but the KIP.
Love it.
This has been amazing.
We have one last question for you, though.
Brian, if you could go back 20 years, whatwould you tell yourself?
What advice would you give yourself?
Well, I'd be 18.
And when I was 18 oh, boy.

(55:24):
Let's see.
That was, me going to Maui.
So I would say go to Maui.
I don't know that I I've thought a lot aboutthis question, and, you know, I I believe
everything happens absolutely for a reason.
I wouldn't be where I'm at with theopportunities I have if I didn't take every
single path that I took.

(55:44):
But what what I would say is, I probably wouldhave held my faith a little closer to myself at
that time in my life and at the age I was in.
It's a very selfish age to be at, and, Idefinitely lived that way.
And had I had a little bit clearer head on myshoulders and understanding of what I really

(56:07):
wanted in life, I probably could have donethings a little bit more efficiently.
Alright.
Okay.
Wise words.
Yeah.
For sure.
Hearing that.
We're gonna drop all the, links, their social,and all that stuff in the show notes.
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
Just call our company.
We're open 5 days a week.

(56:28):
Normal working hours, 7 to 5, and, it's 847-338lots.
So stole that phone number from my dad actuallyabout 25, 30 years
ago.
Nice.
I've had it ever since.
So, that's the easiest way, that or email.
I'm always open checking.

(56:48):
Happy to talk to anybody about work or anythingelse.
I love networking.
Love chatting with people, and, feel free toreach out.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Listeners, this has been amazing.
I mean, Will had a blast, and, Brian, he lookshe looks happy.
So that's always a good thing when we get tothe end here.
If if the guest is still happy, we've done atleast somewhat good of a job as host.

(57:10):
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
See you, guys.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
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And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.

(57:35):
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Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
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