Modular Construction: Innovation & Efficiency In The Built World with Roger Krulak - FullStack Modular

Roger Krulak explores modular construction, comparing it to traditional methods. He discusses its efficiencies, challenges, and paradigm shifts in construction processes. The conversation covers planning, assembly, workforce considerations, quality assurance, and differences in construction drawings. Roger addresses organizational efficiency, risks, profitability, and technology's role in modular construction. He also tackles training, adoption, labor shortages, future challenges, and the need for continuous improvement. The episode concludes with insights on streamlining business processes, logistics, financing challenges, and advice for advocating modular construction.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What what are you trying to solve now?
What are the challenges now?
Yeah.
I mean, we're always the interesting thingabout it, it's a it's a it's a great question.
But the interesting about manufacturing is,like, that's the mentality.
It's not just like, you know, like, you live toyour level of list of things I wanna solve.
Like, we watch something going down the line,and we're like, why the heck is that taking so

(00:24):
long?
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
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(00:46):
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(01:10):
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(01:31):
Today's guest is Roger Krulak, founder andpresident of Fullstack Modular, a trailblazing
company in mid to high rise modularconstruction.
With over 35 years of experience, Roger hasreshaped the industry through his commitment to
sustainable tech driven building practices.
Since founding Fullstack Modular in 2016, Rogerhas led major projects like 461 Dean Street,

(01:55):
the world's tallest modular building, andStarwood's 1st US Treehouse Hotel.
Recognized as a thought leader, he frequentlyspeaks at leading universities and industry
events and has been featured in New York Times,Forbes, and Fast Company.
Roger's visionary approach has landed fullstack awards, including spots in Builtworld's

(02:16):
Building Tech Top 50 in Civil and StructuralEngineers Rising Stars list.
And with all that said, Roger, welcome to theshow.
Thank you so much, Justin.
Really appreciate it.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So, I said some nice things, but tell us thereal story.
How how how the hell did you get into modularconstruction?
I guess, the easiest question.
You said everything dropped, Mike.

(02:37):
There's really nothing to say.
Yeah.
I'm glad I do appreciate it.
And yes, I mean, look, we are, we are designmanufacturers of the built environment and we
are focused specifically on housing, whetherthat be hotels, student housing, multifamily,
affordable, attainable, you know, and as youmentioned in that wonderful introduction that

(02:58):
we're really focused on mid to high risebuildings, mostly dense urban environment
because our company was born in New York.
You say New York is a dense environment?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I mean, but the idea of building somethingthat's sort of taller than 8 stories, our

(03:19):
system can go up to 45 in a in a non seismic,you know, New York area.
It could go up to about 28 in California whenyou have a when you when you have a seismic,
you know, high seismic areas.
But it's a it's a very robust all steel systemthat is structurally very sound and independent

(03:39):
of all other structural systems, which makes ita complete system for the building.
Just give us a table to sit on and that's andwe do the rest.
Got it.
So, modular construction is an interestingterm.
What what does that mean to you and what doesthat maybe mean to other people?

(03:59):
Yeah.
To me, it means, like, I don't have any it'snot even a starting of a conversation because
modular is a is it has so many thingsencompassed, into it.
So modular can be something as simple as, like,I'm building wood panel systems to send to a
house that's going to be built.
It could be a curtain wall system.
It could be HVC multi trade racks.

(04:22):
It could be what we do, which is volumetricconstruction.
But the word modular doesn't really tell youanything.
And there are so many ways to tell you, youknow, I build panelized walls, I build bathroom
pods, I build, volumetric modular constructionwith everything in it or, you know, and that's
and that's and that's a better definition ofsome of the subsets.

(04:46):
So where did the idea come from?
Or where's where's the experience coming fromthat, you know, that essentially Fullstack
became a company?
Yeah.
Well, the idea of a modular building has hashad a lot of iterations.
I mean, it had just sort of post World War 2,it had iteration.

(05:09):
A number of architects sort of entered intogame plans for large modular subdivisions.
You got things like Levittown.
I mean, there's all kinds of, you know, there'sall kinds of history on modular.
The senior project for Moshe Safdie, a la vitain in in up in Montreal.

(05:29):
The idea that we could find some way to embraceindustrialized construct, industrialized
manufacturing into the built environment hasbeen a driver for a long time because we have
inefficiencies of the process.
And one of the things that makes me laugh morethan anything is, is that there's almost

(05:51):
nothing that goes into a building and there'snothing that there's no tool that's used to
make the building that isn't manufactured, butthe buildings are not.
So think about that.
Yeah.
That's true.
I mean, you could put a sculpture, you know,like, somebody paints a mural, you know, like,
but in general, pretty much the whole thing ismanual.

(06:14):
Well, okay.
So, you started full stack modular.
What was your history in where leading up tofull stack and actually starting full stack?
You're what?
How many generations do you want me to go back?
I'm just kidding.

(06:34):
So, I mean, to tell you the truth, mygrandfather, my great grandfather, was a
carpenter.
And, and my grandfather ran lumber yards andwas a carpenter and then he became an
executive.
My father developed houses, condos, etcetera.
I grew up in Ohio.
And my and the thing that always bothered meeven, you know, before I started in the

(07:00):
modular, you know, efforts that I that I hadthat I have undertaken is that my great
grandfather, may he rest in peace, could go ona construction site today and be totally
comfortable with what's going on.
Like there's no other industry where, like,they would not they would not have specific
tools to use that increase productivity andaccuracy, etcetera.

(07:20):
And we're in this industry is getting there,but it is getting there slow and it's getting
their way behind.
And so so that so that and I'm ridiculouslyimpatient.
And so the idea of wasting time in meetings orwasting time waiting for the other trade to
show up or wasting time trying to get up anelevator with your drywall, It just it just it

(07:44):
just, it's like waiting for a coffee in aStarbucks line or trying to get to the airport
and you don't have TSA pre check.
You know?
Like, it's just it's ridiculous.
There's a better way.
So time so you've noticed how much time wasbeing wasted really by waiting.
Yeah.
And I mean, the reality is is the skill theskill sets.

(08:06):
I mean, I I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, veryunion trade focused, you know, location and
those and those building trades were, you know,I mean, they were diminishing significantly and
just pick up any newspaper and you'll read anarticle about how we are, you know, somewhere

(08:27):
between 3 and a half 1000000 and 7,000,000housing units short in the United States, and
we're losing ground, not gaining ground.
So that's yeah.
Speed is a big deal if you're that far behind.
K.
How much faster is modular building incomparison?
Who knows?
I I you know, I mean, it depends on what you'rebuilding.

(08:48):
So look.
I mean, I think it's worth noting.
No.
I mean, it's a it's a really good question andI'm gonna answer it, but it is it has a few
facets and I have a hard time just giving itoff the cuff answer.
So so the interesting thing about, about aboutIndustrialized anything, doing something in a

(09:09):
factory is that you're striving for economiesof scale.
So you're trying to do something over and overagain with enough competitiveness that you
increase speed, knowledge and learning in thatprocess.
And, on whatever spectrum of the scale you fallon is going to be how much savings you have in

(09:31):
time once the team, the workers have learnedhow to do that.
So they there's diminishing marginal returns.
We can do a whole industrial engineering classif you want.
But the but the but so the so the dimension butthey're gonna get faster and they're gonna be
highly efficient.
And in a factory, because it's incrediblyergonomic because you you, you know, you're in

(09:54):
one place.
You don't have to worry about the weather andall that.
You get significantly more productivity.
So if you do everything really well, you shouldbe able to do it, design and build it in about
50% of the time.
If you do it moderately well, you should beable to at least save 25 to 30 percent.
A lot of time.
That's huge.

(10:15):
A lot of time.
That's huge.
Yeah.
From job costing.
You're not gonna catch up, but at least itwould help.
I I mean, industrial manufacturing, at least, II don't remember where I saw it, but in a 50
year period, construction saw, efficiency gainsof somewhere between 10 20% in that in that
same amount of time.

(10:35):
Manufacturing has gained efficiency by, like,675% or something like that.
It was Yeah.
Like I had to read that to the last year.
Construction has lost productivities in manyscales, but, you know, and it is trying.
I mean, there are all and, you know, leanconstruction methodologies, the BIM modeling,
the, you know, the early preconstruction, allof those things do help the efficiency of the

(11:00):
process.
But the process in of itself is disintegrated.
So it's so, you know, the nice thing about afactory is it's completely integrated.
Like, everything has a relationship toeverything else.
In a construction site, then it's just not thecase.
It just has to coexist.
Right?
So the electrician has to coexist with the workthey're doing, and and the plumbing is is

(11:20):
coeducing, and then they have clashes just likeyou do in, you know, society.
And this is those clashes have to yield aresult.
And it's just not it's not exactly what I callgreat plan
even if it's different.
So talk a little bit about so obviously, timeis part of the problem in what you're solving

(11:42):
in sort of building modular, buildings.
Can you talk a little bit more about what areyou trying to solve?
Yeah.
I mean, it's one of the value propositions.
I mean, it's so the the interesting thingabout, the utilization of industrialization, it
has some requirements that is antithetical tothe process that I just described, which is the
sort of design bid build process that we'vebeen living in for a way too long.

(12:07):
And this process using industrializedengineering, building in the theoretical
requires a paradigm shift to be a more sort ofdesign build process.
And if you can embrace that design buildprocess and if you can follow the parameters
that are created by what it is that you'rebuilding, there's a huge opportunity for cost
and time savings.

(12:28):
And if you're only willing to dip your toe inthe water, then my then chances are their net
benefit you're gonna get is just like tippingyour toe in the water.
You'll get a little bit of benefit, but it'snot gonna be probably be the same cost.
Maybe a little less, maybe you'll save a littletime.
So the question is, what does the team wannado?
But if the team wants to build high quality,fast buildings so that people can live in them,

(12:52):
You can be looking at, you know, 50% timesavings, probably 20 to 25% cost savings.
And the solving the problem, we that there's.
Yeah, at least 3 and a half to 5000000 missingunits in the United States for people who live
in all of the factories we're building all overthis country that we've used to build all this

(13:15):
brand new manufacturing capacity.
There is no houses where any of these factoriesare There there is nothing to live in.
So, so think about it.
Like, it's crazy.
Okay.
So when you talk modular, just to give ourlisteners some concept of how Modular and
essentially what you are bringing to the table.

(13:36):
Are you just manufacturing a wall?
Are you match manufacturing a frame?
What do you what do you manufacturing?
Essentially, what is it that you are doing atthe site?
So you've got manufacturing side.
Right?
And then you bring something over to where thebuild side is.
Mhmm.
What is it that you have to do on the siteversus what are you what you're doing inside?

(13:58):
So for full so for full stack and, and thename, which I have to credit to my wife is a
technology term related to full stack, youknow, engineering.
So it's back end programing all the way throughuser interface and everything in between.
And that's what full stack is in the builtenvironment.
So we are a fully integrated structuralmechanical electrical plumbing system, fully

(14:22):
finished in the factory facade on all thefinishes, all of the accessories, the hallways,
the mechanical distribution.
The structural system is part of our system.
So we're an all in all one integrated system.
And we do use some sub assemblies that are alsomanufactured in industrial.

(14:43):
Okay, so
so how's in a factory?
Well, yeah, I mean, well, so we look at theworld in a little bit more manufacturing terms.
So we look at it in the world of assemblies andsub assemblies.
So like a subassembly would be an electricaldistribution for a unit.
It might be a subassembly, a bathroom pot mightbe some of the piece of a curtain wall and some

(15:06):
of them.
And then we take those and we assemble thosealtogether.
And then we end up with a finished unit thatbasically just needs to be bolted to the unit
next to it.
And then all of the kits, the all the erectorset pieces that connects them all mechanically,
electrically and structurally come with it as akit like you would get in a Kia box with a bag

(15:26):
and and then you put it together.
So are you creating so for all the differenttypes of units, that you're making, are a lot
of your sub assemblies the same in all thedifferent units?
Is where that is that where the scale comesfrom?
So, very good question.

(15:47):
Let me try to define it a little bit.
So there so so we want to minimize repetition.
We want to minimize, we wanna minimize thevariations to the extent possible in order to
meet the market needs.
So that's the balance.
Right?
So if you need 1, 2, 3 bedrooms to, you know,have a place, apartment building in Atlanta and

(16:10):
they need to be a 1000 feet, 500 feet and 700feet, then we're gonna say, hey, look, let's
build your let's make sure here's some thingswe've done in the past, but let's build your
optimum 1 bedroom, you know, 2 bedroom andstudio, and let's pick 2 bathrooms, the, you
know, the luxe 4 fixture and the and then we'regonna take those assembled a sub assemblies and

(16:33):
you can mix and match them.
But the more variety you have, the lessefficiency you get.
So you have to choose what's more important.
Okay.
So would you be would you be would your companybe used more in a master planning situation,
like an entire subdivision?
We love that.

(16:54):
Not it doesn't have to be.
I mean, you put one building in one place.
You know, like, we're we're working at someprojects in California, you know, high rises.
We're looking at obviously, a big we're workingon a big project in California for a university
with 9 buildings.
So, yeah, I mean, the value proposition,whether you're putting it in one place or 10
places because we're building it in the sameplace, is you wanna have enough repetition so

(17:17):
that you're getting economies of scale.
Okay.
What is what is the work that has to be done,you know, on-site?
So you bring whatever it is that you bring fromthe, you know, from the plant or for the plants
over to the construction site.
Obviously, it's not a full full on unit orhouse.

(17:38):
So where does it go from there?
Well, I mean, we do mostly multi valleybuildings of some sort.
So, yeah, it does need to be put together.
But it is bolt together.
The mate line the mate line that connects thatkeeps the connected are all shipped with the
mod.
You you still have to can you still have to doa foundation of some sort, steel, concrete or

(17:59):
whatever else, floating boat, whatever barge,we can build it on and we've done you know?
But, and then you and then you obviously haveto connect to whatever the utilities are,
etcetera, that has to happen, and then you needa final roof, and you need to drop the elevator
in the shaft that's created by building themods together.
So it's really not a whole lot.
A lot of connections.

(18:20):
It's connections
and and a final monolithic roof and obviously afoundation to sit.
Okay.
So, you know, there's maybe the you take awaythe waiting.
We still need a crane probably to pull up.
Yeah.
A lot of the pieces there.
I'm going to guess that it's a lot of flatpieces.
No, it's we are a we are a fully volumetricmodular,

(18:45):
fully built unit.
Yeah.
Free.
So prefinished, prefabricated, volumetricconstruction.
It's an entire piece of the building.
Now that piece of the building might be astudio and it's all in one or it might be part
of a 3 bedroom where you have 3 mods that cometogether and then all 3 of them make 1.
Or it could be a mod with stairs and anelevator.

(19:08):
But but those all of those things cometogether, built in the factory, fully enclosed,
facade on, and then they get stacked, on-siteand then connected.
Okay.
That is I mean, it's wild.
It's a little bit different from the concept ofjust framing, building, you know, you know,

(19:30):
framing out the outside walls, the inside,right, and all that.
Yeah.
It's a it's a very different, it's a verydifferent approach, which requires you to do a
lot of plan.
And, and that is different.
I mean, the planning is different.
The ability to wildly vary everything is adetractor from the value proposition.
Obviously, you could do it, but it's adetractor from the value proposition.

(19:53):
So you want to have commonality.
And honestly, multifamily building has so manyparameters to begin with that you're not asking
for that much more than you would normally get.
I mean, there's a few things, but but it reallyis it it is a good use of something that can be
transported and erected.
So so what does the people side of this looklike?

(20:16):
Right?
So, obviously, this is construction ormanufacturing or a or a little bit of both,
however you wanna phrase that, but you're notI'm assuming you're not taking the normal
construction crew and saying, hey, guys, sit inthis factory for x amount of time, and let's
see what we get out of it, on the other side.
So what is one, how do you who are thesepeople, and how do you find them?

(20:39):
So the so the good news is you do need,significantly less skilled labor, although you
can use skilled labor and some skilled labor isvery happy there.
The nice thing is you get to work inside.
You don't have to walk steel.
You don't have to go up a man lift.
You don't have to do any of those things.
You show up the same place every day, have aplace to park, go in and do your work, and it's

(21:00):
controlled and ergonomic and safe.
Never basically never have to get off theground.
And we train them and we train them with thesubset of construction skills needed to create
a modular building.
And we give them very specific workinstructions, which most anybody could
understand.
And we give them a set of procedures that mostanybody could understand.

(21:23):
This is what manufacturing of everything elsehas been doing for 100 and 30 years or 140
years.
And they just follow those instructions and itcomes out incredibly well.
And then, of course, we use a very rigidquality assurance program to make sure that
each item is being created as it's supposed to,just like when you order something from Amazon

(21:46):
and it comes in and says this hat was qualitychecked by Josephine.
You know, we do the same thing on everythingthat we build and every piece of it.
So, okay, help me understand something here
because
it building modular, you know, even looking atsite plans, building modular, I suspect working

(22:10):
and looking at the plans looks a little bitdifferently because either you're going through
them really fast, going through the pagesreally fast as you're stacking on top, or the
plans look completely different than what anormal job site would look like and how you
look at that.
Right?
Yeah.
So so I I think, I think I know what you'reasking.
And if I answer the question correctly, you canlet me know.

(22:32):
I totally missed it or not.
But the actual plans that go into the buildingDepartment for approval are exactly the same as
you would normally have.
Although some of the systems might be sort of amore modular focus, say, superstructure system,
or they might be a modularly focused electricaldistribution system that has some specific

(22:56):
differences, but still the same girl.
Okay.
What the difference is, is, is that from thatpoint on, normally in a conventional building,
you would have the architect then do a seriesof construction drawings and instructions for
all of the trades to, to follow so that theycan meet the codes that were created in the

(23:20):
drawings and that they're compliant, but alsobe able to give them enough freedom to figure
out some ways to be efficient in what they'redoing, etcetera.
So it doesn't happen in our system.
Once there is a permit drawing, we then createlevel of detail, sort of 400 highly detailed
drawings and instructions for all the workersin the factory to follow to make sure that it's

(23:43):
compliant with those drawings.
We're not relying on, we're creatingmanufacturing drawings and and those drawings.
So that is different.
Okay.
Are the are the MEP aspects, right, somemechanical, electrical, plumbing, are they
built into the system so even those systems areconnected between levels?

(24:08):
Is that
They're well, they are that that I did mentionearlier and, there's the mainline kits.
So the mainline kits would provide theconnection piece, say, between floor to floor.
But all the stuff on this floor is done and allthe stuff on this floor is done and then you
just have to fix that.
And that's a piece with a couple of connectors,and it's sent in a box.

(24:29):
And it has a label, and you can look it up andsee what drawing it's, you know, it's supposed
to be like.
And then you just put it there and connect it,and then you're on to the next.
Holy cow.
I suspect that the inner workings or theproblems that happen when you have 2 separate
trades trying to work on the same thing at thesame time, you just reduced or completely

(24:53):
eliminated the problems that from thatperspective.
Yeah.
Eliminated it.
I mean, you know, when you talk about layingout your manufacturing process for a specific
job, you know, you you have the choice of howto organize You don't have to worry about like
when's the plumber showing up or when's theelectrician showing up?
You're like, 1st, I'm going to do this and thenI'm going to do this.
And this is more efficient if this happensfirst or maybe we can install the electric on

(25:15):
the outside while we're doing drywall on theinside.
Like all those things are options when you'reat a factory and in a manufacturing
environment, whereas.
You know, in a conventional in a conventionalprocess, you have this parade of trades where
certain things can't happen until other thingshappen.
Not saying it doesn't exist, but you have amuch more flexibility in how you organize it to

(25:36):
optimize it.
And so, obviously, a lot of positives here.
It's pretty straightforward.
You got time.
You got cost of labor.
I mean, there's lots of positives here.
Obviously, newer, so they always have to haveadoption because why, why is it modular why
isn't everybody saying, like, I need to be amodular company or a modular construction

(25:57):
company?
Well, I don't I that's a probably another 3hours sort of philosophical conversation about
how people decide to do something.
But the question I think that you really wantto get it is like it sounds great.
What's wrong?
Yeah.
You know, if it's not good, like everybodywould do it.

(26:18):
So so so there's a few things.
One of them is that I mentioned earlier, whichis the paradigm shift, the idea of paradigm
shift from design bid build that doesn't workmuch.
So if you're starting your process and ifyou're a big developer, you've probably been
doing that for 25 or 30 years.

(26:38):
Does that get an architect?
You know, do some stuff for free.
You go send it out for pricing.
You value engineer it for 5 months.
Then you value it for another 5 months and thenyou try to get financing.
And then eventually send it out to a bunch ofGCs who basically give you any number you want
because they're sick of food pricing it.
And then, you know, eventually you build.
And by the way, it works.

(26:59):
Right?
We've built a lot of things in the industry.
But in order to accomplish modular, you have todo a paradigm shift where you said, look, we're
going to design, build this.
Like we're going to figure these things outheaded.
We wanna spend, you know, no more thanwhatever, 300 for hotels.
I don't wanna spend more than $300,000 a bed.

(27:19):
You know, it's like, it's I can't do that.
So that's one of my parameters.
And I wanted to look ultra modern.
That's one of my parameters.
And I wanna have all 1 bedroom suites.
That's one of my parameters.
And then you as a team, architecture,structural, mechanical engineer, the modular
manufacturer, developer, they all come and say,okay.

(27:40):
Here's here's our marching.
And that's so hard for an industry to ship.
And it's, you know, 14, 13 and a half, 14% ofthe world economy.
So it's, like, not just moving a shift.
It's moving the ocean.
So so that that's part of the reason.
The other reason is is that, the enemy, youknow, like, I mean, obviously, construction is

(28:03):
almost always late and almost never on time.
Right?
And we keep doing it the same way.
And, and we keep doing it because it's the it'sthe devil we know.
Right?
So it says so, so they, you know, it so theresult of that is, like, they're not looking
for a better way because this sort of works.
Right?
So so so but that's changing.

(28:24):
Right?
Interest rates went higher, although they justdropped a little bit today.
You know, so when money isn't free anymore, youthink about how long it's gonna take.
So Mhmm.
It's a it's a it's, money is often a motivator.
So you're seeing that pickup.
But and the reality is, is that you can't gettrades.
Right?
You can't get people to do things, you know.
And so and so so forces that, you know, that weassume is don't control are driving us to think

(28:49):
about things that make sense to solve theproblem.
And so you're seeing a much bigger pick up.
The other thing that is regulatory is reallynot as big a problem in my view as a lot say it
is.
But but the financing side of it, the otherstakeholder, the financing side of it, you
know, it's pretty new in the financing world.
Like, how do I finance and secure a buildingthat's being built, you know, 500 miles away?

(29:14):
It's really hard.
It's really hard to put in those WIP reports.
Yeah.
Exactly.
No.
We do.
They have it.
And the interesting thing is is, like, we trackeverything.
So you could see, like, where everything is,but they have to be okay with that.
Like, the bank inspectors have to be okay withthat and and lenders have to be okay with it.
So that's really, I I think, where the industryis.

(29:36):
And I think I can't, I can't finish this run onsentence without, without saying that
development, residential development is verylumpy.
Right?
And it takes a long time, and it's and it it itincreases in, in velocity and decreases in
velocity, and that's lumpy.

(29:56):
Factories hate lumpy.
Like, they wanna be busy all the time, 247,365, you know, except for it to clean and
change, you know, change the lights and, youknow, take off a holiday.
You want it going the exact same way becauseyou get your economies of scale.
So meeting those 2, the lumpiness versus theversus the need to be absolutely consistent is

(30:20):
also a challenge that I don't think has yetbeen solved.
There's lots trying to solve it, but but that'sthat's the other one of the other elements that
I think are, you know, sort of slowing down theadoption.
So the financial aspects, there's a huge riskthat you if you over you can always under
create, but then you lose economies of scale.

(30:42):
But if you over create, you could actually loseall of your profitability by over creating on
whatever your modules are, and that could getyou in hot water.
Exactly.
So really what you're saying is I need to beable to understand what demand is and predict
it because, you know, the Fed does such a greatjob with that.

(31:03):
Understand what the demand is, whether it'spent up or otherwise, and just assume that even
things like political factors don't play playinto this, which
Of course they do.
Of course they do.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
I mean, well, yes.
I mean, there are that it you are correct thatyou need to find some way to to predictably

(31:23):
keep your factory busy enough that you areefficient and that you are covering your
overhead and making money.
And then everything else is gravy.
It's like, you know, high, high, you know, it'sit's high breakeven, high margin.
Right?
So so, like, the high breakeven is super hardto hit.
And if you have lumpiness and 2 projects stop,you have an empty factory.

(31:46):
You can't just turn the lights off and go homeand wait for you know, if you're a developer
with 3 guys, you know, you can send, you know,you could send them off to do something.
And then but if you have a, you know, a 150workers and you're paying rent, you know, in an
industrial space, then They
need to keep working.
You you need and so, really, then it's justfinding the right buyers.

(32:07):
You can Or you can be your own buyer or be youryou'll be your own buyer.
Okay.
Yeah.
Essentially building and developing and runningout
the space.
Vertically integrated solution with, you know,US design, manufacture, construct there.
And and there is there's a reasonable lot ofthat sort of evolving right now.
You know, you'll see

(32:27):
Kazoom type.
Thank you so much.
So do you are you guys also in that space?
Like, are you are you building buildings?
We're moving towards that.
That's our that's our, that's our hope is, isis to get that rolling next year, so that we
can keep our factories busy and still build forothers, some of the society projects, but also

(32:48):
do some of our own stuff so that we are alwayspushing stuff through the fact.
And what does you mentioned, you know, designbuild.
What is that design?
Because I I have to imagine that there arelimitations because you want to have the rep,
you know, the repeatable, let's just, you know,churn out.
Like, if I can make, you know, 26 story,buildings, and they look exactly the same in,

(33:10):
you know, 50 different cities, that's gotta bebetter than, oh, well, this one looks different
than that one.
This one's different than that one.
And actually, they they can actually all lookdifferent and be very similar.
What I said earlier, like, multifamily, evenhotels, I mean, in all honesty, they're pretty
much the same pieces of parts.
I mean, you could put different lipstick onthem, but at the end of the day, you know,

(33:32):
bedrooms have to have windows.
So, you know, to be legal in most parts of thecountry, not in Portland Oregon, but everywhere
else.
Not there are a few other places.
But but, they figure you don't need a windowbecause it's never sunny except for the summer.
But but I'm just kidding.
I mean, but they're mostly it's required tohave a bed bedroom has to have a window.

(33:52):
So you have to have that.
Almost everybody feels like they need a kitchenand a bathroom.
Right?
So, like and the location of those, there's alogical and less logical locations for those
same things.
So if you if you incorporate all that, like,multifamily is already a shoe into being pretty
predictable as long as you don't go crazy andsay, I want, like, I wanna predictable as long
as you don't go crazy and say, I want, like, Iwant 9 different types of 1 bedrooms because

(34:15):
one of them is gonna have an alcove, and one ofthem is gonna have a big closet.
That, you know what?
But but but the reality is is, like, if youwant the facade to be different or if you want
finishes to be different or if you're like,that's easy.
Like, you you literally just change that out.
But if you if you if you want every one of thebuildings to look different, if you're gonna
give it to a different architect, then I'mgonna have to teach every architect how to

(34:38):
embrace modular parameters, then it's gonnatake a long time and not be very efficient.
So then you're hence, the design side thedesign side has to be essentially inside of the
company.
No.
It has to be an integrate.
It has to be a design build
team.
Integrated.
Yeah.
Whether that team is in 1 company or whetherthat team is multiple companies, it still has
to be a design build team that is rowing in thesame direction.

(35:01):
So you obviously multifamily.
That's the space you work in.
What do do you see this possible for industrialand other commercial, you know
There there are.
You know, there's modular tilt up buildings.
It's been around forever for industrial.
You know, like, you can go by 1 they can goonline and give specs, and they'll engineer it
and send it to you.
I did that once on a time.

(35:23):
Lots of companies that do incredible work inhospitals, operating rooms and and exam rooms
and portable sort of acute care units.
You know, I mentioned multi trade racksearlier, like, you know, distribution.

(35:43):
Like there's a lot of companies that put, youknow, HVAC plumbing and electrical in these big
unit strut racks, and then you just hang themin a hospital that saves months, if not years.
So so, you know, there's lots of there's lotsof uses for it.
And I mean, to be fair, you know, like, boatshave been built that way for a long time and

(36:04):
airplanes have been built that long time.
It's all you know, it's pretty much the samething.
So talk to us a little bit about technology.
Sure.
Because I suspect that technology plays a largepart in how you guys are building.
Talk to us a little bit about that.
Well, I mean, everything the first thing is, Imentioned in different statements that that our

(36:30):
our process is all built, in the theoreticalfirst.
Our our building information modeling system isa very definitive design of what's being built
on-site.
So every piece, parts, screw, detail, etcetera,is created that way.
Then that information is conveyed to something.

(36:51):
It's either conveyed to the worker on the flooror it's conveyed to a machine that makes steel
studs or it's conveyed to something that'sextruding something.
So all of the data is, is, is transferable datato communicate with all kinds of things,
humans, machines, etcetera.

(37:12):
So that's the most important part of it.
And then obviously, there are, ergonomic spacesaving, sort of, performance, improving tools
that also do the same thing, you know, like,you know, you know, Lincoln Electric's, you

(37:32):
know, CNC pipe cutter or, you know, like andall those things are running off the same
information.
So Are you designing are are are you using,like, BIM or digital twin?
You're using BIM?
Okay.
It's not on people's foot.
I mean, we we build off the theoretical.
As I explained, like, we're not on-site ever.
Right?
I mean, we send our mods there.

(37:53):
We're basically on-site.
So we're building here's a design.
Here's what it has to be.
Here's how it's all connected.
Here's how you put it together.
Here's the code requirements to issue with it,and here's the instructions on how to do it.
And and let's go.
So so it's all data, and that the improvementof data and frankly, AI is hugely advantageous.

(38:18):
If you think if you think I'll just give it anAI example.
I'm no AI expert, but I'll just give you aconstruction AI example.
So let's just say we're building all thesewalls that hold all of the mechanical systems
for the bathrooms that are part of thebathroom.
And as code requires, there is a change in thesize of the pipe from the 1st floor to the 10th

(38:39):
floor.
But the bath, but those walls are exactly thesame size.
And the and the and the, and the drain and thedrain pipe that's running through it is exactly
the same size.
And then there's some variations in, theseismic clamps that have to go on and strain
relief, etcetera, so that's a, so now you justtake that.

(39:00):
Here's my base unit on the first floor.
And now I'm gonna tell the AI these four thingschange, these things stay the same.
Now it spits out, like, 3,000 drawings in about12 seconds.
And, and and and, because you because youbecause you you, you know, sort of designed it
that way.

(39:20):
So the answer is, yeah, we used to have to do afew thousand drawings, you know, with the guy
clicking their thing and say, I'm changingthis.
I'm changing this.
I'm changing this.
I'm changing this.
So it's a big it's a big opportunity.
Obviously, you don't if you don't create if youdon't create the infrastructure correctly, if
you don't build the model correctly, then it'sall kinds of problems.

(39:40):
But but if it is, then it's usually a bit
Sounds like you need actually a lot of highskilled labor on the design side.
Like
a lot of high Yeah.
I mean, it is, yeah, that that is a big that isa big it is a big cost and requirement for what
we do because if it's not super simple to do onthe in the in the factory, productivity goes

(40:03):
down and you don't get your economies of scale.
So we we accept that.
What's the what's the breakout of the team?
What's the, like, what size of the team, andthen what's the breakout design on-site
compared to
factory?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we do we we have basically nobodyon-site other than support the the on-site
general contractor or owner operators that'sdoing it.

(40:25):
So that would mean, you know, less than oneperson.
I mean, it's one person for part of the time.
Got it.
But but in the factory, you know, all of theassembly is done there.
And how much of that assembly is actuallyproduced in the factory versus a sub assembly
is produced elsewhere?
Depends on the scale, the time, how busy thefactory is.

(40:46):
Like this to be.
You can you can accordion in and out sort ofthe level of work that's happening in one place
versus the other.
And then.
The crew, you know, like building with a cruiserange, you know, you can be as little as 50
people and as much as, say, a 150.
It doesn't go much more, and there's usually 2,2 to, 2 shifts.

(41:11):
They don't necessarily do the exact same thing,but there's generally sort of 2 shifts kind of
thing.
And then there's a stringent QA program thatmakes sure that we're building exactly what
we're supposed to be building.
And then there is a production management team,material control, logistics team.
Then there's the design for manufacturer VP whomanages all the digital process that's required

(41:36):
for that.
And then there's the under him is a personwho's working on virtual design and
construction, works on AI stuff.
And then and then there's obviously the projectmanager that's sort of project customer faced,
And then there's every other support thing, youknow, behind it that you need, you know,

(41:57):
counting and purchasing.
Okay.
So, you know, when it comes to the people thatare within your organization, you're doing
something that's relatively new.
Right?
And so, when it comes to training people, so,hey, this is what the rest of the construction

(42:19):
industry is doing.
The the the 14% or whatever of the world isdoing.
And then there's us.
Right?
Right.
How much would
you rather have someone that's completelyinexperienced in construction or or have
someone that's very experienced in constructioncoming to your company?
It really depends.
I mean, I so some of each really I mean, look,it depends on how many bad habits they have.

(42:45):
Right?
I mean, I'll just give you an example.
So my great grandfather was a carpenter as Imentioned.
And, like, you know, the amazing thing aboutcarpenters, if they're good, especially if
they're finished carpenters, like, they canwalk into a house that's been around for a 100
years, not a single wall is plumb, not a singlecorner is square, not everything.
And they're gonna take and put in, you know,like, a 5 piece crown molding that looks like

(43:09):
everything is perfect.
And that is an incredible skill.
And because of that kind of training, they'realways looking to solve problems by themselves.
Right?
Because they're, like, they're left withwhatever comes next, and and they're gonna try
to solve it.
Same thing with, like, a really great painterwho, like, you know, goes in and sort of
restores stuff.
You know, like, they're gonna solve a problem.

(43:32):
Manufacturing, that's antithetic.
That that is totally not productive, because wedon't want that.
Like, if you can't cut your wood at a 45 degreeangle and hang it on the wall, somebody before
you messed up, And we wanna know who it is, andwe wanna find out why.
We wanna fix it so you don't have to do itagain.
So so so we don't want somebody with badhabits.

(43:54):
We we love people with skills, but it is asubset of sort of full construction skills, but
it is but there are skills.
So so we like to mix it up a little bit.
But but you can take somebody I mean, we havetaken people who have literally working at the
airport with, you know, the flashlights andturn them into ultimately, they became, you

(44:15):
know, a rate union carpenters working on HudsonYards.
But and through our process sort of versus theconventional sort of apprenticeship process.
But so so I it doesn't it sort of depends onthe person and their and what they and and
whether they're good at, you know, like,embracing the process or
So you've grown a whole bunch.
Okay.
Without a doubt, successful.

(44:39):
Do you think that adoption, is sort of leaninginto modular construction because there's a lot
of benefits.
Is it really a fear factor in the industry, afear of change?
Well, I think, man, you I'm gonna start talkingabout fear of change and we're not gonna stop.

(44:59):
But, but, it's I mean, my
Or or how does or in addition, how does theindustry have to change, right, to remove that
fear?
Yeah.
I mean, I think just, I you know, I think it'suse it's you.
The reality is, I mean, some a couple of sortof touch points.
The, you know, there's no general contractor inthe country now that doesn't have sort of,

(45:23):
like, a modular group or a modular divisionthat, you know, works with other modular
companies, etcetera.
That's a fact.
There are public projects like the, you know,California's Cal Poly project that I mentioned
that is happening, so that's being embraced.
So so you're seeing adoption.
But but the things that, you know, that aresaying the way I said, are you, like,

(45:44):
financing, you know, figuring out how to getbanks to understand how this all works?
It's pretty easy, actually.
It's easy to quantify everything.
It's easy to secure everything.
It's easy to ensure everything, but that's ashift.
And so, and, it and then there's, you know, andthen there's, you know, you only need one
stakeholder to to not to, you know, to stop it.

(46:08):
And and, and that does that.
It just does.
I don't know.
Did that answer your question?
No.
It did.
No.
It did.
I was think I was just thinking about yourcomment with the banks.
Right?
Not understanding because you already a lot ofthem,
by the way.
And they're very active, and they're andthey're learning very quickly, and they're
sourcing stuff, and they're doing a really goodjob, US Modular, and they're and they're doing
a good job.

(46:28):
And there are other banks that are doing it tooas well.
Anyway Also, Modular, it seems that, you know,big thing that we hear all the time is, like,
labor shortage, right, for construction.
But, like, in your case, that's not inherentyou don't inherently need to have somebody
that's extraordinarily skilled.
So, like, that that can help help the industryas a whole.

(46:52):
Right?
Not just obviously full stack, but, like, hey.
Like, if we have a labor shortage, like, here'san idea that then removes that that, you know,
that problem.
Now, again, there's there's other things youhave to do and build it out and have factory,
and all the all the shit that goes with that.
But, like, that is an aspect that, like, hey.
If we're not having people that are skilled to,you know, go up and build a, you know, 50 story

(47:13):
building, for, you know, all the differentreasons why, you there are there are solutions
to this, or at least 45, levels.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No.
That's correct.
It is it is a it is it is a response to theneed for highly skilled weight.
Interesting.
So then so, again, it just goes back to, like,well, then that's another there's another

(47:37):
reason why.
Like, why why you would do this.
And Yeah.
Eventually eventually, the levy will break, onewould might guess, and say, like, it's faster.
The the labor's cheaper.
Also, you can get labor easier.
Right?
Like like, those things, should eventually say,like, all of these reasons why it should pop
over.
And so doing more public and work, wouldn'tthat stimulate more people to try to dive in?

(48:02):
Like, if, like, the HUD, was like, hey, let'slet's build a lot of affordable houses.
Like, in, like, let's do it modular style.
They've done a few of it, and they're andthey're trying to figure out how to do more.
They've spent a pretty good amount of energyand research and money to try to figure it out.
So they they are focused for sure.
Okay.
So what are the you haven't perfected modular.

(48:26):
Right?
Would would that be fair to say?
You've definitely made strides.
Yeah.
Huge strides in modular.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think our our system ispretty robust and pretty complete, and and way
more than, you know, sort of most other sort ofconstruction related systems.

(48:51):
But,
so what what are you trying to solve now?
What are the challenges now?
Yeah.
I mean, we're always the interesting thingabout it, it's a it's a it's a great question.
But the interesting about manufacturing is,like, that's the mentality.
It's not just like, you know, like you lived,you have a whole list of things I wanna sell.

(49:11):
Like, we watch something going down the lineand we're like, why the heck is that taking so
long?
Like, what's wrong?
What could we reorganize?
Can we use a different fastener?
Like, what happens if we move this using wheelsinstead of a crane?
Or what happens if we put the, you know, joistson from the top and we weld the hangers in?
What happens if, like, it's a so I the only wayI can answer your question is, like, we do that

(49:36):
every cycle, every time.
Like, what's Mhmm.
Alright.
Continue iteration.
Yeah.
But you can actually iterate.
You can actually iterate because you have
Exactly.
At the modular side.
Right?
There are pieces that are the same.
And so by making those pieces the same, themanufacturing process that's around it, right,
to make that piece, you can iterate to faster,better

(49:58):
Exactly.
And that's, you know, 3 like, they're like,well, what I love people ask me.
What improvements have you made since youstarted Venture?
Like, we make improvements every day.
Like, I like, I mean, how long do you have forme to explain this?
Like, I can give you so, like, watershed thingsthat we've done.
But the reality is, is that each one of them, Iwant to just give you an example.
Like we, we, you know, our last project, wewere like, I'm just driving me crazy.

(50:22):
All the, how long it was taking to put thejoists into the, into the, into the, into the
floor.
And it was like, cause you had to stand up,meet it and somebody had to be upside down and
humans don't like to be.
And then, you know, getting it leveled thecorrect way.
It was super complicated.
Like, that's crazy.
Why don't we just create a joist hanger that wecould design that will go and that we could

(50:45):
have the steel manufacturer market with theirrobots and then weld it.
And then all we do is drop them in like that.
You know, like you drop it in slats to a bed,you know, base or something like that.
And that's how we do it.
I mean, we save dozens of hours, and it's soeffortless.
And and that and that but it doesn't change thestructure.

(51:07):
It doesn't change what we're using.
It does just like the sis by which we're doingit is way more efficient.
And that's an example.
Like, I we could talk about them all day, butlike that.
But that's that's how you have to think if youdon't think that way.
In contrast, I remember when we were firststarting the design of this process and we had

(51:28):
a wonderful, owner of a plumbing company, andwe started to talk about what we're trying to
do and what did he think about.
And we had some electrical engineers who werehelping us, and we were, like, having all these
great, you know, Charettes and think sessions.
And we started talking about how we want tojust change the way we install the plumbing and
we're going to reverse certain attachmentmechanisms that we think that it'll work.

(51:50):
And he stood up and he's like, I do things likemy great grandfather did them.
I'm not gonna change anything.
He got really mad and he stomped out.
And I'm like, I'm like, god bless you, and Ihope that you stay successful, but he's not
somebody who's embracing this.
Like, it's just not gonna happen.
And so, you know, it sort of depends on whereyou are on

(52:11):
that, you know,
on that on that journey.
Would you argue
one just one question.
Would you argue that the way plumbing is taughttoday would have to get then changed?
So I'm just going to use your example.
Right?
Plumbing is being taught.
And so the thought process behind plumbing,especially if it's unionized, right?

(52:31):
There is a very specific way it's trained,done, executed, etcetera.
Yeah.
So even though you even have union, right?
You work with union.
Yeah, we do.
There has to be some sway and thought processbecause it's just done differently.
Yeah.
It's, look, it's all the same pieces at the endof the day.

(52:53):
Right?
At the end of the day, it's really how youassemble it.
And and it really is the process by which youdo that.
So for example, and you talked about plumbing,so we'll stay on it.
Like, you know, a good old, you know, dyed inthe wool, Union Plumbing Foreman will tell you
that, like, there's nothing better than weldingcopper pipe.

(53:16):
Right?
Like, it's like, why would you ever do anythingelse?
It never breaks, blah blah blah blah.
And that is absolutely true if the materialyou're using is high quality and if the welder
is actually knows what they're doing.
And that's absolutely true.
However, that that's not the world we live in.

(53:37):
So you if you don't have enough welders, youcan't put this.
So we use press fit.
Right?
So, like, they would say, like, that's not asgood as a welded pipe.
I'm like, you're right.
If we had, you know, 15 certified welderssitting here on their ass until we needed them
and then did that, then that would work reallywell.
But now I can get sort of anybody on my floorto go get that press fit gun, show them 4 times

(54:02):
how to do it, monitor how they're doing it, andthen all of a sudden, I don't worry about
welding.
So so it's more of that kind of process andnuance and adoption of things that work that
are really the same things than it is sort oflike we're just turning you upside down.
I'll give you one more example.
So when we built the tallest modular buildingin, in North America, we used bus duct and, and

(54:29):
lots of people make bus ducts.
Square D is one of them.
And I went to Square D and I said, look, youknow, you normally, you normally put the place
that the bus duct is is flexible in the centerof the of the of the of the floor, floor to
floor.
And so that it's rigid top and bottom and it'sflexible in the middle and that adjusts for any

(54:50):
problems with the building or squares,etcetera.
I don't want you to do that.
I want you to do the flexibility at the floorbecause our mods are gonna come together.
And if they come together slightly off, I'dlike them to be able to come together, and then
we'll just make it rigid in the middle.
And the engineers, like, went, what?
I was like, just look at it, please.
And they and they looked at it, and literally 2days later, they came back.

(55:12):
They go, like, we love this.
And they so they basically I completely reverseengineered their process because it works
better for what we do.
But but it's the same thing.
It's just it's just that it's a it's adopted.
Yeah.
So that's the kind of stuff we do every it'slike it's like, how do we make it better?
Modular methodology is very different.

(55:34):
There the the the problems that you encounterand solve.
Right?
There are just you're trading off.
There is a trade off.
Yep.
I
think you solve more problems than you create.
I mean, 50 percent 50% reduction in essentiallycosts
1 o.
Would
would argue that you are creating less mistakesand less problems with the process.

(55:59):
Yeah.
I mean, look, there's a there's so much to talkabout that because of some of the things that
I've talked about when you're building in thetheoretical and you're putting it in the
reality, you have to have some way to make surethat that that reality is matching the
theoretical because you're building in thetheoretical.
So one of the big.
Efforts that full stack made at the beginningwas how do you do that?

(56:20):
How do you know that you're putting thebuilding exactly the way it needs to be so that
everything that you're building in the factoryfits?
Yeah.
And that's a long conversation.
But that but that is a big focus.
So there and and some of the failures that havehappened in this industry are much because they
couldn't they didn't figure out.
K.
I appreciate I appreciate the very nice way ofof backhanding the, the industry.

(56:47):
No.
No.
No.
It's it's just I mean, honestly, it's noteverybody could improve.
I mean, if if you don't think you can improve,you should really think again.
So so so it's just, you know, but but we allknow that, like, any failure has, you know, has
a has a has a ridiculously high knock on effectto any success.

(57:08):
Right?
So so, yeah, just a board.
Where so where it's obviously in in theconstruction aspect or the manufacturing
aspect.
Looking for a little improvements all the timeand changing these all the time makes sense.
What about in in the business side?
Like, are I assume the mindset's still thesame.
Where are places in the business that you'refinding those efficiencies as well or who you

(57:30):
have over the last, 9 years?
Well, we've tried to streamline the process.
Right?
So, like, even our construction contract is toright?
Actually, it's just, like, we have a designbuild contract that have 3 phases and we, you
know, we enter this process together in this,you know, agreement that gives everybody the
flexibility they need, but but also outlinesthe process.

(57:52):
So we so we have we have we have shifted a lotof the sort of agreements and types.
And the other thing that's different about sortof manufacturing versus construction is we have
a pension for partnerships versus, you know,competitive bidding.
Right?
So we wanna work with people who know what wedo and how we do it and what we wanna do rather

(58:13):
than having to teach every time, which is, youknow, which is very typical.
So a very typical in a constructionenvironment.
Right?
Five bids for everything, you know, like okay.
But but you I mean, I was gonna like, one boyknows exactly what we're gonna do and the other
4 have no idea.
So it's like, what's what's the value in costof it?
So so the all of those things do shift.

(58:34):
I mean, it's, and, you know, the good news isis, you know, it's like building in Home Depot.
Like, everything comes to our factory.
You don't have to be around around anything.
Nothing.
Yeah.
The other thing I think that's interesting thatthat the real message is, like, from a traffic
perspective on-site, once the foundation is in,you have, like, 70% less truck traffic than you
would in a conventional building because it'sall in the mod.

(58:55):
There's not it's nothing else.
It's just a mod.
Mhmm.
So, you know
That's that's a lot of saving.
That's the logistics?
That's a lot.
It is.
It is.
It is.
But, you know, the the cost, the understandingof costs associated with that are quite
complicated to unpack and.

(59:16):
Right?
Because, like, a drywall guy says, I'll sellyou drywall at, you know, whatever, a dollar a
foot.
And they've already included their delivery,etcetera, blah blah blah.
And now you're saying, okay, send it to mehere.
And you and then you have to figure out how tohow to how to how to extract the savings that
they're, you know, that they're experiencingfrom.
So that's delivered.

(59:37):
But sustainably, it's wonderful, right?
Like, I mean, it's far less.
The neighborhood is completely not disruptedafter the foundation goes in.
You know, no noise, no jackhammers.
And those everything's inside.
So it's a it's a you have to work outside.
You don't have to protect the yeah.
Protect the building.
Got to heat it.

(59:58):
Those are those are great points.
Justin, I think, I think we're running up ontime here.
I think it's time for our last question.
For sure.
Roger, we asked this to everybody.
So we'd love to hear your answer.
So if you could go back 20 years, what advicewould you give yourself?
Oh, I think I think I probably would have toldmyself 3 things.

(01:00:22):
One of them, one of them is, is is, raise waymore money.
The second one, the second one is, figure out away to build some of these projects yourself so
that you can perfect it and collaborate withother people, but actually create that, as a as
a solution.

(01:00:43):
And then, and then the I don't know.
Those are the 2, the 3.
The last thing I think I probably I try toadvocate a lot, but I probably could spend some
more time sort of advocating for modular, youknow, in the in the in the public sector.
I think that there's a there's a lot of work tolike, how do we use modular to create

(01:01:05):
affordable housing?
It's not you know, I know how much it costs tobuild it, but that's not the only problem.
Right?
So how do we how do we create an environment tofund housing that's needed?
So you have to have the manufacturing somewhatnearby in order to Yeah.
But we also need that you also need to be ableto finance it in that public sector, which
means that, you know, and, you know, the bondfunding and the limit of the credit of the

(01:01:33):
person providing that funding and then how thatgets created and how long it takes and all
those things.
They need to be streamlined along with this inorder to really, you know, and to really start
to make a big difference.
Wow.
These are big these are big mountains to move.
Mhmm.
1 at a time.
1 at a time.
Iterate.
Okay.
Right.
Exactly.

(01:01:53):
That's awesome.
Will Pro all your social stuff, in in the shownotes.
But if somebody wanted to get a hold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
Yeah.
You can just go to the website, and there's athere's a connecting design you're on building,
have at it yourself, and then, there's athere's a link page for information we'll we'll
get back to.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Anything else you wanna tell the people beforewe say our goodbyes?

(01:02:15):
Happy holidays.
There you go.
It's, no.
You know, I it's it's exciting.
You should, you should definitely explore it.
It's, it's an it's an incredible, opportunityfor us to start to fill the needs of, of the
built environment that we have in this countryand all over the world for that.
Love it.

(01:02:35):
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