January 28, 2025 • 54 mins
Jeff Meyers discusses the evolution of DS Architecture and its new partnerships, emphasizing the importance of embracing diverse ownership and transitioning business roles. He explores leadership dynamics and the firm's office culture, highlighting the evolution of decision-making processes. The conversation delves into embracing change for growth, teamwork, and navigating business cycles, along with strategies for conflict resolution and client evaluation. Jeff shares insights on market strategy development, diversity inclusion, and process refinement through EOS implementation. He also discusses adapting to prevent operational fractures, the development of the 8 Ball software, and the future vision for scaling the firm.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You know, you don't want, Iron Man fightingwith the Hulk.
(00:03):
You want them to be the Avengers.
And at some point, you galvanize the team, andthe 4 of us are the Avengers.
Of course of course, I'm either Iron Man or ifwe flip to the other other multiverse, I'm
Batman, of course.
But just wanna and Batman is Batman I lovebecause he's not actually a superhero.
He's just a human who works really hard anddoes good for the world.
(00:25):
But yeah.
So the idea is you have to let go.
You have to be okay with yourself or othersfailing.
You get to be okay with others leaving, and itsucks.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
(00:47):
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forrett.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
(01:11):
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IP cybersecuritystrategy.
(01:35):
Just go to building scale dot net slash health.
Today's guest is Jeff Myers.
Jeff returns to the Building Scale podcast fora second episode, still owner CEO of DS
Architecture, a leading design firm inCleveland.
He champions culture based design approachfocused on people and design excellence.
(01:56):
Jeff also is passionate about connectingarchitecture and society to make a difference.
He advocates for mental health through NationalAlliance on Mental Health and promotes
diversity in the AEC industry.
DS Architecture is built on the principle thatpeople come first, combining innovative design
with a strong cultural foundation.
And more bio fund this on Jeff, just go backand look at episode 9, which was, an eternity
(02:22):
ago.
We probably recorded it 3 years ago.
So episode 9, were above a 120.
I think, for building scale proper without thebuilding connections, it's, like, 117 is what
your episode is.
So welcome back to the show, Jeff.
Woo.
Woo.
Woo.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, everybody.
Yes.
Oh.
Right?
(02:43):
If you're not watching if you're not watching,we're all rocking hats, Christmas hats.
Will has a a bear ski hat on, but that's thethe Chicago Christmas as he says.
Yeah.
You know, we're all foams over here, with withthe season that we've been having, so I'm just
gonna leave it at there.
Yes.
Absolutely.
So, tell tell us.
It's been, like I said, about 3 years.
(03:04):
What's happened?
What what has happened?
What's growth look like?
What's what's going on in the firm?
What's new?
Tell us everything.
Well, I mean, first, we're still having fun.
That's the most important thing.
We are entering in a time of since the firsttransition from Dave Summers to me, we're
entering a time of new partnership, which, willstart and wrap up by the next end of next year.
(03:26):
So that's very exciting.
We are having one of our best years ofprofitability ever.
New clients, some new staff, and, competing nowat the top level of Cleveland.
We are you know, I think 3 years ago, you heardme talk about becoming the premier culture
based design firm.
I'll go out there and say we are the premierculture based design firm.
(03:46):
We live in Ohio.
Right?
Oh, laying down the smack.
Yeah.
For sure.
New partners.
That's very, very exciting.
So, what what does that look like?
What are new partners in the next year?
Tell us about that.
Yeah.
There's, individual, Eric Prose, who's ourdirector of design.
Extremely creative.
When I became partner, in 2010, the first hireI wanted to make was somebody who was design
(04:11):
oriented.
And I reached out to Kent State, and theprofessor there who was the associate dean, I
said, I want your most creative person in thelast 5 years, and, Air Prose was his name.
And, he had job offers at all the major firms,and we were a small four person firm.
And he joined us for the civil concept that Ipromised growth.
And so here we fast forward, the 2004, andhe'll be, one of the partners.
(04:37):
Our business development director, will beelevated to a partner, and our CFO CEO will be
a partner.
Interestingly, though, Eric and I will be theonly 2 architects.
Felicia is our CFO, COO, not trained as anarchitect.
And Phil Lanier, our business developmentmarketing director, who is not an architect,
will be promoted to partners.
(04:57):
Little different.
A lot of firms are all focused on architectsand we want a diversity of ownership.
Wow.
Yeah.
Real quick back up for one second.
Why going to why pursuing this path?
Why partnership?
Why bring on I mean, aren't you diluting sortof your equity stake?
Well, that's interesting.
(05:17):
It depends on how you think about money and theconcept of money.
100% of a $100 will is a $100.
10% of $10,000,000 is a lot more than a $100.
So the idea is, yeah, while the percentage maydecrease, the idea of having others buy into
the growth of the company investing in them andthem investing in me, it's a value it's a value
(05:41):
proposition.
And to me, it's a no brainer.
Could I make more if I kept the firm togetherand, was the sole owner, right, as a staff?
And, you know, I'm 45 and 20, 25 years sell it.
Can I make more money?
Maybe.
That's a big gamble.
Right?
To me, the the value proposition isn't there.
(06:01):
The idea of bringing these individuals on now,we've been through, you know, me and Eric been
through 13 years together, me and Felicia, 8years together as our our integrator or COO,
CFO, till for 4 or 5 years.
We know we can go through wars together, and weknow we're all gonna benefit from each other.
Unlike the Bears, we're gonna be a winningteam.
(06:24):
Listen.
You're a Browns fan.
You don't get to say those things.
True.
So we we heard a ton about, Felicia, on thefirst episode.
I remember being, you know, that thatcornerstone, that rock, that operator to your
visionariness.
So what has it been like kinda giving somereigns over to to other people?
(06:45):
Right?
So, Phil you said Phil's in, BD marketing seedor, you know, kinda leads that.
What what does that look like?
That used to be the thing that you did.
Yeah.
That's how I made my way to partner, and it'show we grew the firm.
You know, it's been almost literally a fullyear where I turn out over the reins.
I don't review potential leads.
(07:05):
Phil reviews potential leads, even my leadsthat I bring in.
And I still bring in about 50% of the revenueof projects, but I still give it to him.
And he makes final decision on pursuit or nopursuit.
And, I was averaging about 40 to 42%.
You know, the national average for architectsis 40 to 60.
If you are hitting above 60%, the idea is yourfees are too low, and that's why you're getting
(07:29):
hired.
And if you're under 40, the idea is that, yourbrand has something wrong with it and or you're
growing.
And so you're you're going from AAA to MajorLeague Baseball.
Right?
And so you're not gonna hit this high of apercentage.
I turned it over, and I am sad but very happyto say he hit 52% this year.
So how's it going?
It's amazing.
(07:50):
And I will say the benefit to that is he, looksat it a different way.
I'm looking at it from a business end.
I need cash flow, revenue, etcetera, so I willchase more than he will.
But he'll be like, well, this is a type ofproject we want, and he's not burdened with the
idea of cash flow.
Right?
And that's a good thing.
And for, you know, for a couple years, I wasready to turn it over.
(08:12):
And finally, we decided as a a business teamlast year that I would turn it over and proud
of myself for delegating and elevating.
And and I didn't know he was hitting 52% until,the the end of Q3.
And, we had our leadership team meeting lastweek, and it was our biggest best surprise.
(08:32):
And that is my biggest best surprise is that,how it's always done.
Yep.
And then flip side, you know, turning overdesign to Eric, that's been a long process, but
it probably happened about 4 or 5 years ago.
And he really focused on this concept ofthought leadership and building a brand of
design.
You know, we now have award winning projects,and I think our portfolio compete against
(08:54):
anybody.
But the big thing in the last year is Eric wasable to attract major design directors and
senior interior design leaders from other firmsthat come to us, and they brought their
portfolios.
So turning over design to him has also createdmore opportunity, and this is why the idea of
leadership, you know, our business is betterbecause of Felicia.
Our business development and marketing isbetter because of Phil.
(09:17):
Our design is better because of Eric.
And so the, you know, the true thing is get getgood people and get the out of the way.
That's, always true.
People yeah.
Obviously, we we believe people being afoundation for scale.
Like, you need to have the right people, youneed the right processes, and put the right
technology in place.
(09:37):
And people, they they cease to, surprise me atthis point.
I feel like every time I hear an amazing storylike like yours, right, the example of yours,
I'm like, of course.
Because when you put the right people in theright seats, they do unbelievable things, and
that's how business
goes.
We noticed something, and, for those that arenot actually watching the actual video version
(10:05):
of this, Jeff is in a very open environment andhis desk doesn't look any different from anyone
else.
If anything, you got shustered away, shusteredaway from, operations, probably to prevent
operational chaos.
Absolutely.
Visionary whiplash.
(10:26):
So typically we see kind of leadership beingschushered away, but into offices, right.
Where they have their own office, corner officeor otherwise.
Why don't you have, I mean, it's a very openlayout, open design.
Yeah.
It's, why don't you have your, assembly office,you know, in some corner closed off?
(10:52):
Well, I I would say, it, leaders eat last, and,what I mean by that is, without the team, the
leader is nothing.
And in order to kind of make that statement ona daily basis, I sit in the open studio.
I sit at the same size desk.
I I can overhear things, which is good and bad,and they can overhear me having meaningful
(11:14):
conversations with clients about difficultiesor about the idea that we don't negotiate fee.
We negotiate scope.
I'm also very approachable.
Right?
And, so they can come up and, interrupt or aska question just like they could anybody else.
Right?
I can jump up and participate in a designmeeting.
They, it it's just the idea of collaboration,which is one of our core values.
(11:39):
But it's also about making a statement.
I'm just one player on the team.
And, when I played professional ultimateFrisbee, I I, bought jackets for everybody that
said 1 27th.
There were 27 players on the team, and the ideawas we can only do our 1 27th.
And when a big game comes on, we don't need ourstars to do 2 or 3 20 sevens.
(12:00):
Just do your 1 27th, and we're gonna be good.
And that's the same concept I brought to thefirm.
Everybody do your role.
Everybody be excited about your role.
Be excited about what other people are doing,but we're all just equals.
We just happen to have different positionsinside of this architecture.
So I don't I don't want I don't need to be abigger desk.
(12:21):
We have areas we can go do HR type stuff,etcetera, but day to day, I'm I'm just another
player.
Very interesting.
I love how you talk about that, as well as the127th or essentially one over part.
Why is it, we've definitely seen this,especially at the partner level, where the
(12:45):
partners are sort of dual rolling.
The, the one role is sort of, let's say the BDbringing on.
And then the other part is the business side.
And then sometimes the third hat is they'restill doing design work.
Right.
So, how are you able to manage this or makesure that that's happening?
Well, a scorecard.
(13:06):
You know, as the current 100% owner and excitedthen the next 5 years to have, you know, 30% of
that to other people, the scorecard tells methat I can let go.
Right?
It's a simple one zero matrix.
8 most important things in the firm.
So if I see ones there, that knows that we'rewe're hitting the goals that we set as a group.
(13:28):
I so it was the hardest but best thing I'veever did is let go.
Because as a leader, the biggest hurdle togrowth is yourself.
And if you are a funnel that every decisionneeds to be made from, you cannot grow.
That is just the fact.
You cannot scale.
So decisions need to be made by other people,and you, you know, for me, it was architect,
(13:52):
project manager, shifted to businessdevelopment, shifted to, you know, kind of,
marketing and overseeing that whole thing andgrowth to visionary CEO.
And every time I did that, I have to let go ofsomething.
And I'll I'll be honest, who my staff doesn'tI'm afraid to be an architect again.
I don't know how buildings are put together andany more specifications scare me, But, like, I
(14:16):
had to let go of everything, and now I have tolet go of the leadership roles of the major
functions of the firm.
And if I don't, I will prohibit us fromgrowing.
Luckily, I've had people that have gone throughpersonal, you know, with my mental health,
which, you know, we'll talk about it, I think,at some point, but previously talked about in
the last podcast.
Trust them personally, and I trust themprofessionally.
(14:36):
And there's a a concept of book called RadicalCandor, and you can challenge people
professionally if you care about thempersonally.
And we all do that, the 4 of us.
So letting go is the idea of growth.
It's a value proposition again, Will.
So you mentioned decision making.
Right?
So, how how is that done now, and how do yousee that changing, as it I know your leadership
(14:59):
team's been together for a while, so thishopefully doesn't have a massive amount of
change to it.
But, how how does it look today?
And then, what what changes may happen?
Yeah.
I mean, there's no nothing formal right now.
It's a, kind of a a pinky swear handshake, but,we're making big decisions for the firm.
And this this literally just happened last weekat our this is a very timely conversation.
(15:22):
Happened at our, annual conversation.
But generally speaking, when the business teamneeds to make decisions, there are 4 of us at
the table, those 4 individuals I talked about.
We all try to represent our box or ourposition, and Felicia does a good job because
she's the leader of that group of letting usinterject our personal feelings and protecting
(15:43):
our boss boxes at the same time.
She does a good job of that.
But at the end of the day, decisions are madeone of 3 ways.
Consensus, which happens 95% of the time.
Majority, that's probably 4% of the time.
And Felicia could be losing 3 to 1, and shemakes a decision, and that's the decision.
(16:03):
And you would say, well, you're the owner,Jeff.
Why aren't you making the decision?
Well, if I have to make every decision in thefirm, I am not free to think big picture.
I self negotiate against myself.
I say, well, you know, that's risky.
Right?
And I allow Felicia to play the role of keepingan eye on not dying while I can put my full
(16:24):
strength into growing.
Right?
So these two things, it's allowing me to bemore free.
So, recently, we were discussing potentiallybringing on another service line, and me, Eric,
and Phil were all in.
Let's go.
Let's do this.
And Felicia wrote a little sticky note and putit on the table.
It says, mission critical architecture.
(16:45):
We got 3 more years of this.
And until that, we're not allowed to explorethese other service lines.
And I whined, and Phil whined.
And Eric's like, I can see your point of view.
And about after 10 minutes, she's like, we'redone.
We're moving forward.
And so the idea is she did.
She did the right thing.
You know?
It took me a day, 2 days to stop whining tomyself and pity and, you know, all this great
(17:07):
opportunity.
But, like, yeah, if we chase something else,we're gonna forget forget our core competency.
So that's how it currently works.
I will say 99.9% of the time, that's the way itworks.
As the owner right now, I do have the abilityif I want to to say, nope.
I don't care.
We're doing this.
I'd I've done that maybe 2 or 3 times over thelast 7 years with her.
When they become partners, there will be aprovision in our operating agreement where if
(17:31):
the 3 of them outvote me, doesn't matter if Iown 95% of the firm, they win.
And I think, again, that protects the firmfrom, my neurodivergence, and also my optimism.
They're kind of interrelated, but I can't betoo optimistic.
Right?
So I'm we need to protect there's 20 of us.
If you add their kids and their significantothers, we're we're responsible for the lives
(17:57):
of 50 people, and it shouldn't be more.
Do I want it to
be all Jeff Myers?
Right.
So very astute.
It's very, very long forward thinking, and tobe aware that level of awareness, I think,
requires being able to step back for not just amoment.
(18:18):
I think it requires stepping back for a lotlonger to have her call it a clarity break, to
be able to relish what you are and what you'renot good at, to give up that control super hard
for those that are going through sort ofletting go.
(18:39):
Right.
Because it does require trust, trusting yourteam, etcetera.
How did you get over it?
Essentially letting go.
Right.
So that they can make the decisions and notjust you.
Well, that that I mean, wow.
I hadn't thought about this in that way in along time.
Well, the the company had 6 people who, gottogether, in 2015 to allow us to grow, and we
(19:07):
followed a, a concept of EOS, entrepreneuroperating system, or the book's called
Traction.
And the book tells you that, at least 1 third,if not more, of the group that gets together
will be gone by the time it's trulyimplemented.
Here we are 9 years later, and only me and Ericout of those 6 remain.
(19:27):
So we actually lost 2 thirds.
And what you have to do is understand that whenyou set a vision, a new vision or rethought
vision, not everybody's gonna be aligned withthat.
But if you don't trust and you don't let go andyou don't let others fail and learn and or fail
(19:47):
and leave, where then you failed and learned.
Right?
You can never do this concept that I have.
We've had some major, quote, earthquakes in thefirm where at one point, I brought in about a
third of the revenue and 2 others brought eachin a 3rd, and those 2 others have left.
And because of the team I have together at theleadership level, the first time we kinda
(20:10):
panicked.
We were like, what are we gonna do?
We just lost a third of the frontline driverbringing in the revenue.
We panicked.
We talked about all kinds of quick ownershiptransition type ideas to get others bought in
so they wouldn't leave.
We talked about maybe do we sell?
We paid for a, you know, a a professionalvaluation.
Maybe they go to market.
And then it it kinda smoothed out.
(20:32):
And then, just a little over a year ago,another one third of our revenue, is no longer
with the firm.
And, we all said, we're gonna be fine.
We're we've been through too many wars.
This is gonna be fine.
It's gonna be hard.
This is gonna be difficult, but we're gonna befine.
And so I guess it takes time.
It takes alignment, you know, of, a direction.
(20:56):
You know, you don't want, Iron Man fightingwith the Hulk.
You want them to be the Avengers.
And at some point, you galvanize the team, andthe 4 of us are the Avengers.
Of course of course, I'm either Iron Man or ifwe flip to the other other multiverse, I'm
Batman, of course.
But just wanna and Batman is Batman I lovebecause he's not actually a superhero.
(21:17):
He's just a human who works really hard anddoes good for the world.
But yeah.
So the idea is you have to let go.
You have to be okay with yourself or othersfailing.
You have to be okay with others leaving, and itsucks.
It's really hard.
But then you get a team of that's galvanizedand a team that is believes that we're gonna
inspire together and move earth one closer togood together.
(21:39):
Nothing can rock us.
Nothing.
I love
go go ahead, Justin.
There's so much truth in, conflict together.
Right?
Like, not not conflicting internally, but,like, facing conflict as a team and, like, how
much that brings you together and then bringsconfidence to when the next conflict comes of
(22:02):
oh my god.
Like, we're like, not a big deal.
Like, we're gonna get through this.
Like, yeah, it'll be hard.
Like, you know, we're we're not, like,oblivious to the concept.
This isn't so, you know, business isn't easy.
However, like, we're totally gonna be fine.
And, like, then now, you know, it's fast orthis year and, like, the firm's, you know,
awesome.
It's growing and and everything.
Like, you know, it it can be a dark days.
(22:24):
And if you let those dark days, affect you andget gloomy, like, that can have the negative
effect.
Or the opposite of it is, like, yeah.
This will be hard, but, like, we're gonna getthrough it.
So it's it's fine.
There's a there's a, I can't remember thegentleman's name, but he did a lot of,
inspirational speaking back, like, in themiddle of the last century.
(22:47):
So, like, thirties and forties public speaking.
And he said, when it is summer when it issummer, the winter will come.
And then when the winter comes and it's thedarkest day of the year, you have to believe
that summer will come.
And what makes people great or businesses greatis the moment that spring starts, you start
(23:08):
preparing for winter again.
You don't celebrate spring.
You start preparing for winter because guesswhat?
Winter's coming.
Right?
And I will say that's my team's belief that toprotect those 50 people, 20 in the the staff,
but their kids and stuff, we always have to bethinking about summer and thinking about
winter.
(23:28):
Isn't tomorrow is literally the longest day ofthe year or the the shortest day of the year,
literally tomorrow.
That's what you're saying.
Yeah.
Very, very fitting, do
you wanna build a snowman?
Yeah.
Exactly.
So I think that's a good segue for somethingthat we had talked about in the pre call, is
round decision making as well and sort of our,you know, when arguments do arise.
(23:52):
Right?
Because I think all different people, differentcoming from different backgrounds, they talked
about, decision making on client greater thancompany, greater than team, greater than self.
Wanna reflect on that a little bit?
Yeah.
I mean, it's a con concept that we discussed inthe pre call, and, I love that you know, Will,
(24:17):
I love that you create the thought in me that II maybe have had but couldn't articulate.
I love this concept about when there's conflictand you're debating or arguing, maybe you can
get heated.
Who are you arguing or debating for?
You know?
Is it for yourself?
Is it for the team?
(24:39):
Is it for the company or the client?
And you have to put you have to decide whereyou're arguing from and where the other person
may be coming from to have true conflictresolution.
And I've reflected on that.
I I have that in my notes to bring up, at ourstate of company, which is on on January 10th.
Yeah.
So it's a I, you know, I love these type ofthings because I learned something, and I love
(25:02):
learning.
And so,
I like this concept.
Why not the other way around?
Why not, you know, flip it around?
Let's say team first, then company or companyfirst, then client, then self.
Right?
Why not flip it around?
Well, I think I think, you know, and I I kindabrought this up a little bit is I think if it's
(25:26):
a personal self issue, like, somebody passedaway and or, you know, there's a a reason that
you can't put team above self, that's fine.
But what I understand the concept to be is thatthis is within the conflict resolution of the
business.
And so we take that, variable out of it.
(25:47):
And, if somebody's protecting self, team cannever succeed.
If somebody wants the big office in the cornerand wants to be able to shut the door and not
have the desk that's the same size of everybodyelse, they're putting self above everybody.
Why is client the top of that or the first partof that?
Well, we have to pay taxes and bills andinsurance and salaries, and the clients have to
(26:10):
be happy.
That doesn't mean you can't fire clients.
Right?
We're talking about the good clients.
Sometimes you need to fire clients and that'sokay.
So so to me, that that's the order it has to goin.
K.
You know, so when we talked a little bit aboutthis, the conversations, cause we've seen a few
firms like this where there's an argument to bemade that should even client be part of the
(26:40):
sort of this equation.
Right?
So company is essentially company greater thanteam, greater than self, and client shouldn't
even be a factor of this, that it is sort of ait's a branch of thinking from the company.
Would you, you know, would you agree ordisagree with that and why?
(27:04):
I I would we have 9 psychographic, indicatorsof a client.
Must respect architecture, must, appreciate ourcore values, must be growth minded, must be
able to be educated, must be well connected,must give back to the purpose greater than
themselves.
(27:24):
And these nine things define our ideal client.
And if they meet 7 to 9 of those, then clientis greater than company, greater than team,
greater than self.
If they only match 6, then company is greaterthan team, greater than self, greater than
client.
So you have to evaluate a client not based ontheir potential revenue, but on the benefit of
(27:50):
what they align with and, ultimately, how muchstress do they bring to your team.
I've fired clients before.
It was very interesting the first time I didthat when Dave Summers was just still a
partner.
I wrote a letter, that client left for a betterfee.
And 3 years later came back and goes, I don'tneed fee proposals anymore.
(28:10):
I just need your services.
Right?
And so that's where we flip the paradigm.
So it it and every time I fired a client, whichhas probably happened about a handful of times
in my I don't like to say this, 15 years, this
part here.
My staff has come and been very appreciative,and there's been a weight off of them.
And they were more productive, and we make moremoney.
(28:31):
And it's one of those things that's hard to betangible about, but, like, the theory of it
works.
Right?
So both will.
So
when did you get these 9, psychographics?
Like, when did this idea come into place?
That's super very smart.
It makes some sense because, like, you know,everybody always says, like, not all clients
(28:52):
are worth the money or, like, not all money'sgood money.
Right?
Like, and that is a way to say, like, hey.
Like, we're gonna make this more metrical.
Right?
Like, and say, like, hey.
Here are the the 9 pieces that you gotta, youknow, you gotta fit into at least 7 of those.
Otherwise, this relationship's probably notgonna work out in the long
Well, I'll start with the why that thesepsychographic, ideas is is somewhat what you
(29:17):
said, Justin, about not every client's worthit, but not every architect is a match for
every client.
Right?
There are firms out there that will succeedwith clients that aren't a good fit for us.
How do we come up with it?
Again, I'm going back to the the, you know, theconcept of EOS.
It talks about there are 3 ways to attack amarket.
(29:41):
And, it's geographic, you know, your location,the product, or our our case, the typology,
higher education maybe.
And then the last one is client, and you haveto have a way to define all three of those,
geographic or Northeast Ohio.
Maybe we're national.
Right?
We're talking about we have an individual who'sthinking about opening up in the Italy office.
(30:03):
Right?
So that's geographic.
Alright?
Typology, higher education, health care.
But if somebody asks us to do, Department ofRehabilitation and Corrections, not our
typology, not our product.
Right?
And then geographic or, psychographic, theclient.
Is it the right client?
So you have these it's a it's a very complexRubik's cube, and, you have to turn to Rubik's
(30:25):
cube and all the sides have to be the samecolor.
If they're not, walk away from the geographiclocation.
We shouldn't go to Aruba.
If it's not the right typology, jails, weshould walk away from it.
If it's not the right client, we should walkaway from it.
When you put it in that parameters to me, it'ssimple.
You you made it absolutely simple.
I feel like I've talked about this a lot oftimes with a lot of people, and I've not had
(30:51):
them, say, hey.
Like, we have x amount.
Right?
You're 9, right, 9, psychographic componentsthat are going to tell us if this client is is
good or not good for us.
Right?
Like, not necessarily for anybody, but, like,for us in our culture and our environment, what
we're trying to achieve, like, this is how weknow that that client fits the culture, not
(31:14):
necessarily just the product and just thelocation.
Right?
So that's that's super smart, Jeff.
Yeah.
We have a client that is probably the mostintelligent client we've ever had.
So intelligent that he can run very fast in hismind, and he can come across very self assured,
which he should be, very educated.
(31:35):
And he causes challenges in meetings because heasked questions.
And if
you don't know the answer to the question,he'll ask another.
And if he gets to 3 or 4, he gets veryfrustrated.
Rightfully so.
He's paying us a lot of money.
I'm not so different than with my, myconsultants.
Right?
And so is he the right client for a certainproject manager?
(31:56):
Maybe not.
Right?
But he only has he he meets 8 out of the 9.
Right?
And only does he not meet the 9 in certaincircumstances.
But now if you overlay me into those meetings,he's 9 out of 9.
Right?
So the reason we have to hit 7 or 6 to let gois because the there's ways to navigate the
(32:18):
others.
Right?
And so that's why it's not like, oh, you don'tmeet this one ideal?
We're letting you go.
That's dumb.
Like, there's ways to maneuver 3 of those.
There's not ways to maneuver 4 or 5 of those.
Yeah.
No.
Because you're a partner.
Right?
You're not just a a vendor.
Right?
Like, we say that all the time.
Like, we wanna be partners on vendors.
(32:38):
We wanna be perceived as a partner, not avendor because, like, yeah, we're gonna work
with you.
Like, so like, hey.
Like, you need something special.
You need something that's a little differentthan, you know, what we're giving you, and
that's fine.
Now we can't change all of our processes andall of our structures for you.
Like, you can't do that, but we can adjustbecause, like, you're unique as as every
(32:59):
business is.
So that's I love that.
I'm soup I'm more excited now than ever, Jeff.
Thank you so much.
I already wrote this down.
This will be in our leadership, level 10, comeMonday.
So
You should never change your process ever.
Yeah.
Something else that we talked about, before,and I know you leaned into it, which is
(33:25):
creating a team where neurodivergence is notjust accepted.
You're looking for
it.
Can you talk a little bit about why and maybewhat is there a business advantage as to why
you're doing that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I I'm not gonna rehash the wholepast.
(33:47):
Go back to episode 9, as Justin said, and youcan you can hear my story.
Diversity, equity, inclusion, and the die ideaof equity, is, you know, a lot of this concept
of white male privilege for me.
I I grew up in, inner city, Youngstown, and Iwas the minority in the minority.
(34:07):
And I always say, stack me against the female.
I got a 100 meter head start.
Doesn't mean I didn't work hard.
I worked my ass off, man.
Like, I came from humble beginnings, foodstamps when they were actually food stamps.
You know, it doesn't mean I didn't work hard,but I did have an advantage.
So, you know, there's the whole, racialdisadvantage.
(34:28):
There's the whole, you know, female, male, theway you identify yourself or, all that kind of
stuff.
But for me, there's another, what I call thesilent, demographic, which is those with mental
illness.
1 out of 8 of us are diagnosed with a mentalillness, and I am hashtag bipolar.
And I will tell you that my bipolar bringsamazing ideas of thought, or at least others
(34:53):
will tell me that.
So I I believe it now.
But I will you know, I and not to dive deep,but I've had very, very dark times because of
my neurodivergence.
So the concept is if we're gonna lean into thisthought idea of diversity, equity, inclusion,
Why do we do that?
Right?
Why is the Earth chasing sustainability?
(35:14):
I will tell you because it's profitable.
Yes.
We care about it personally.
Yes.
We wanna leave the world a better place forgenerations.
But if business owners and governments werelosing money to be sustainable, they wouldn't
do it.
And it's the same concept with diversity,equity, inclusion.
You know, if you are able to hire a diverseteam, Mark Twain said, if you're the smartest
(35:39):
person at a table, you're at the wrong table.
Right?
Mhmm.
So if we get 5 of our demographic, goodlooking, we're weird headbands or hats or
whatever at a table, we're not getting valueout of that.
Right?
If I surround myself with Felicia and Cliff,who's an African American, and, you know, if we
(36:00):
have we you know, I'm very proud.
I'm a Kent State grad.
We have more non Kent State grads than we do atKent State grads, diversity of thought.
And so diversity of thought comes from adiversity background no matter what color you
are or what race you are or what gender youare, no difference with neurodivergence.
Right?
Like, we want people who think outside the box.
(36:20):
And I would say all the greats, and I literallymean all the greats you study in your history
books, they're neurodivergent.
I guarantee it.
You can't find one who is not likely, one ofthe, you know, diagnosed mental illnesses.
We like to use the word neurodivergence, and Italked about AthleanMinder last time.
So is there a value proposition?
(36:40):
Yeah.
You know why my company is, is kicking butt isbecause we share that story.
Right?
And I I met with Kurt Curtis, Moody, who runsthe largest African American company, Moody
Nolan, who passed away recently.
Awesome architect.
Great man.
(37:02):
And I said, what does diversity mean to you?
And he said to me, diversity means that anybodythat walks into your firm or knows about your
firm understands they've become CEO of yourfirm and owner of your firm.
That's what diversity is.
Always hire the best talent, Jeff.
But knowing that others can achieve greatnessor the pinnacle of the firm, that's what
(37:22):
diversity really is.
And for me, that should includeneurodivergence.
And so, yeah, we have others coming to us, andI bring a unique skill set just like I do as
bipolar.
Somebody with bipolar as I do have struggles.
Right?
There's been interviews I couldn't make becauseI was depressed.
We have individuals that are OCD.
(37:43):
They they have amazing talents better thanmost.
But if we don't put them in the right seat,failure.
But there's a value proposition there.
And my firm is a case study of that.
That's powerful.
Deep how do you how do you go to attract more?
Like, how what how do you you know, everybodywants to hire diversity in all kinds of
(38:03):
different ways.
Like, how do you go to the market and say,like, we are open.
Obviously, we want the best talent, but we areopen to this because a lot of times mental
health is very stigmatized and very much likelike, oh, that person's bipolar can become a
very, you know, heavy thing to say aboutsomebody that has a massive impact on their
(38:26):
life and in their careers and all those things.
There's lots of ways to do it.
First way is to find individuals that wannahear about and put you on their proud podcast.
Right?
You you're you have to be open and proud aboutit.
You know, with neurodivergence, I always saypoliticians and performers are open about
(38:48):
talking about it.
Politician or about performers being athleticor music, they talk about themselves.
Politicians talk about family members.
There's not a lot of people in our space thattalk about it.
So just talking about it attracts people.
Right?
And, it's a it's a grassroots movement.
I mean, maybe.
It's interesting to think about.
(39:09):
Maybe in 10 years, I'll put a sign up on thehighway that says neurodivergent.
Welcome or something like that.
But right now, it's just a grassroots movement.
Everybody I meet, you know, you guys or, aclient or, you know, a cons a consultant,
potential team member, I talk about it and howI'm proud of it.
(39:30):
We're just in an interview at at a majoruniversity, 2nd largest university in Ohio, and
I talked about it at that interview as adifferent something that makes us different
than other firms.
Right?
So he's gonna be proud of it, sell it, and ittakes time.
Proud and proud.
No.
It makes sense.
Yeah.
You you've mentioned EOS a bunch.
Let's talk a little bit about that.
So, you read this book Traction, a long timeago.
(39:54):
You've used EOS concepts, throughout the growthof the firm.
What does that look like today?
Like, what what things are you doing that areEOS backed or, EOS adjacent?
Well, I I think no matter what you do, you haveto have a system in place, and I think a lot
of, for for business.
And I think a lot of, professionals, be itdoctors, lawyers, IT, whatever, you're educated
(40:19):
on being a deep diver.
I under when I graduated college, I understoodarchitecture very, very deep.
And as you run a business, you become a shallowdiver, and you have to understand a lot about
everything.
And you need a system to help you do that.
For for us, it's EOS and traction, GinaWhitman, the founder of that concept, when I
give him credit because it it definitelychanged my life.
(40:40):
That concept there is about me letting go,which is a lot of what we talked about.
You know?
I think in that book, it's I'm I'm gonnaparaphrase it, but there's an individual
walking across the mountain top and talkingthinking to himself all the great things he's
accomplished and all the great things he'sgonna accomplish.
And then he trips and he falls and he grabs avine on the way down.
And, he starts thinking about, I didn't get todo this.
(41:01):
I didn't get to do that.
And, you know, he's he looks up, and he says,god, he's not really spiritual.
Can you help me out?
And, god goes from the skies, let go of thevine, and you'll be fine.
And he looks around looks around.
God, is there any other way?
Let go of the vine, and you'll be fine.
So for us, EOS is about letting go, and that'sthe major concept for me.
(41:25):
And now the leadership team, which I talkedabout, they're starting to let go.
So where where is that now?
That theory of that concept says processes willbe your hardest and likely your last thing that
you implement, and we are very close to havingprocesses.
We grew before, and we failed because we didn'thave processes.
(41:46):
And we've really focused on processes.
So right now, that's our biggest thing,processes.
For a while there as a designer and eccentricwith Allego bat or, yeah, Allego, necktie on,
You know, the idea is processes will make itnot fun.
That's not true.
Actually, processes, if they're implemented andbought into, gives you more time to do what you
(42:06):
want to.
Structure makes, people have this concept ofstructure that it takes away freedom and takes
away fun, but it's totally the opposite.
It's the opposite.
Structure makes things way more fun and givesyou a 1000% more freedom.
Yeah.
If it's scary.
Sure.
No question.
You're, yeah.
(42:27):
So, I think, when I when I think of EOS and,actually, you mentioned the 10th of, January is
your, state of the union or your your company,call or company rally.
Ours is too.
In the 2 days prior to that, we have our EOS,annual planning session with our implementer.
So, very we're in very similar time or timeframes and then just kind of vibes it.
(42:51):
Well, what I wanted to mention, is, you know,the thought process around process, and whether
or not you automate, whether or not yousimplify.
Right.
How close to perfection are you trying to get aprocess, put into place?
(43:14):
Well, the first time we're at a process, it's 8pages.
Right?
And then you refine it and it should become 6.
And Elon Musk would say it should become 4 or3, and you don't have the process right until
you start adding back to what you cut.
Right?
Perfection?
Never.
If you have a process that is perfect, you'renot growing, You're stagnant.
(43:41):
But you have a process that you don't feel likeyou need to add to, you should be cutting.
And I think I think, you know, I have a lot ofI I reference a lot of people.
But Elon Musk came out with that concept, or atleast the first time I heard it, if you don't
cut a process to the point where you feel likeyou have to add, you didn't cut it enough.
So for me, perfection is simple.
(44:03):
Simplicity.
Right?
So, you can have a process, and then you canhave a bear book behind it.
Right?
So, like, the idea of a bear book, if you'venever heard it, it's Jeff's getting chased by a
bear.
They get in the fight.
Pray for the bear, I would say, in the fight.
But, obviously, Jeff Jeff lost.
Right?
Because I'm like, well, he tripped.
He tripped and the bear sat on my accident.
You want a bear book because you can't geteverything out of my head.
(44:26):
So process is trying to describe that, but youneed a bear book to back it up somewhere.
So
It it's also very true when you hit ceilings,that process gen the processes just generally
need to change.
Right?
It worked up at this point, and now it doesn'twork anymore.
And the I think that drives lots of, leaderscrazy because they're like, we fix the sales
(44:50):
problem or we fix the client delivery problem.
We fix those things.
These are things we fixed.
It's like, yeah.
But that was 2 years ago or 3 years ago, andnow you've grown so much that those problems
are not the same problems, so you have tochange the process.
Right.
Yeah.
We've never used a, talent acquisition company,and we're using a talent acquisition company
(45:10):
because we need the right person at the righttime.
And our word-of-mouth doesn't do that, and sowe changed our process because our number one
ceiling right now is getting projectarchitects.
And so but, yeah, you have to be able tochange.
So no.
Will, not perfection.
It's a journey.
Okay.
And, when you initially, when you're goingthrough you're going to break the process at
(45:38):
some, at some point, Do you let the processbreak or, do you try to stay ahead of it and
try to change it before it breaks?
Yeah.
I, again, I'm gonna go back to Felicia.
We started our, our annual conversation, lastweek, and, she asked us these, like, questions,
(46:01):
personal best for the year, business best forthe year, biggest positive surprise of the
year, and what ceiling are we gonna hit next.
And I don't think that's written anywhere inthat book, but she asked us.
And so they put us in a mind frame of, like,yeah.
We have to be thinking about what ceilings areusually process related.
Right?
(46:21):
Usually.
And so we all came up with these things thatwere if we don't fix this now in a year from
now, 6 months, 3 years from now, we're gonna bein trouble.
And so try to stay ahead of it.
Saying that there are times where you can'tstay ahead of it, like when your server craps
out and your IT IT company has been telling youfor a year.
(46:43):
You didn't invest $30,030,000.
You're like, I'm not investing $30,000.
It breaks, and you're like, well, we didn'tstay ahead of that.
So
well, maybe now's a good time to talk about, Itook a little tech, 8 ball.
Last time we spoke, 8 ball was kind of big foryou.
(47:05):
And one of the reasons you were trying to sortof create 8 ball is to manage really, I guess,
sort of workload stress levels, etcetera,burnout.
And you were able to do it in a way or tryingto do it in a way where you could actually see
(47:26):
the numbers before you hit burnout.
Right.
Which is really hard to like, see it until it'salready happened.
So what's where's April now?
Well, you know, as you guys know more thananybody, because we had some offline
conversations about April, Felicia, again, didthe right thing and kept me mission critical
(47:48):
and would not give me resources to help thisidea of taking that to market.
And so I was by myself trying to push itforward, which I you know, it's one of those
times where I failed and I learned.
So we had developed it further, and I stillwanted to take it to market, but the I think
I'll you know what?
8 Ball was trying to be was a firm managementsoftware, not a project management software.
(48:10):
And a lot of our industry and the AEC field istrying to be project management.
In project management, if every project isprofitable, then, thus, the firm has to be
profitable.
But when a project is not profitable, thatperson gets shamed or whatever, even though
they may have had a client that the partnershould have fired, and they didn't.
Right?
And so we try to flip the paradigm.
(48:31):
As long as the firm is profitable, projects canor cannot be profitable, and, the concept of
time is man made.
Right?
So, like, the idea of iteration.
So 8 Ball was trying to get this idea thatwe're all together, and as long as the firm
hits its billing goals each month and eachyear, we'll be profitable.
And some projects are gonna be negative.
(48:52):
Some projects will be profitable.
But if we're all core valuing out, then we'reall working with our core values, and there's
no concern.
So we were getting close with 8 Ball, but theproject management software we had been using
was sun setting, and so we needed a stop gapuntil we got 8 Ball where it needed to be.
It's a very interesting story.
(49:13):
Felicia selected a program, and I wasn't partof that process, and that's that's a delegate
to elevate idea.
But she selected for some reasons, which aregood reasons.
But during the implementation phase, it becamevery clear to both of us it was not the right
solution.
And so, we are kind of behind the 8 ball, notno pun intended.
(49:35):
Yeah.
And we found a program.
I'm gonna give a little plug.
It's called factor AE.
And, what I hate about it is that it's 8 Ballbut better.
And it has built into it.
Literally, you can see a graph of likelyburnout.
You know, utilization rate versus billabletime.
It turns red if somebody's working too manyhours.
(49:57):
And, you know, the gentleman who's our maindeveloper over there, we've been on several
calls together, he was doing our training, andI was asking all these questions as I do.
And he's like, I need to talk to you more aboutthese concepts that you're bringing about.
Why aren't we doing this or that?
And we have a super bro crush on each other.
And and and I get off the line.
(50:18):
I'm like, I love that guy, man.
This program is awesome.
I'm just so upset that they made it better than8 Ball.
And he and Felicia goes, you run anarchitecture firm.
They wanna run a software company.
They have 20 people behind that guy developingthe software.
And so it's better than 8 Ball.
I would highly recommend it if you haven'tlooked at it, factor a e.
It's kind of new and upcoming.
(50:39):
But, yeah, I I also like I can't believe theymade a better mousetrap, and it's not just
better, Will.
It's way better.
And, but they do have 20 people working on it.
So
Okay.
Well,
I appreciate you.
Yeah.
That's one of those lessons.
Like, we spent years developing this concept,and now it's just thrown out.
Right?
We hit a ceiling, found a better opportunity.
(51:01):
You have to know when to let go.
You have to.
Well, you found your limit.
And, Felicia also maybe it was partially lucky,you know, in the way you went about and kind of
found out about this.
But this is a way to actually help really youand the firm focus in and growing kind of the,
(51:24):
you know, and building scale to that.
Felicia knows best.
That's that's what we've learned, over both ofthese episodes that we've had.
Felicia knows best.
No.
Do not disagree.
This has been amazing.
We so we as you know, we have a last questionthat we ask everybody, but, we already know
what you do if you go back 20 years.
(51:44):
So now we wanna flip flip the other side.
Wow.
Where is the firm, or where are you, both in 20years?
You guys didn't prep me for this one.
No.
Did not.
This is And I forgot about it.
As soon as I
just thought of, so that's it makes it moreexciting.
I remember exactly how I answered this questionin episode 9.
(52:07):
Where will we be?
We will be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prizefor changing a social condition both through
architecture and the elimination of stigma ofneurodivergence.
That's where we'll be
in 20 years.
Oh, man.
Those are love the shoes.
(52:29):
Love the shoes.
Oh my god.
And I have unequivocal belief in that we'llmove Earth one inch closer to good.
More power to you.
I love that.
More power more power to all of us.
All of us.
Oh my god.
This is great.
This is so much fun, Jeff.
Thank you so much for giving more us more ofyour time.
Obviously, you already gave time last time.
Listeners, I hope you had a a great time.
(52:51):
Jeff, I'll throw all your social links andstuff in in the, show notes.
But, is there either last parting words or anyway that people can contact you if they wanted
to?
You look up our website to contact us.
Will, Justin, you you guys are some of the bestpeople I've ever met.
You know, I just pointed out there.
I'm very happy with my IT company.
(53:12):
But if you're looking for good people to helpyou out, these 2, man, they are just good good
people.
Thank you, Jeff.
We appreciate that a ton.
As I said, listeners, this was just a blast.
Blast from the past and blast for the future in20 years from now.
So, until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
(53:33):
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(53:55):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time,
keep building scale.
Scale.
You know, you don't want, Iron Man fightingwith the Hulk.
(00:03):
You want them to be the Avengers.
And at some point, you galvanize the team, andthe 4 of us are the Avengers.
Of course of course, I'm either Iron Man or ifwe flip to the other other multiverse, I'm
Batman, of course.
But just wanna and Batman is Batman I lovebecause he's not actually a superhero.
He's just a human who works really hard anddoes good for the world.
(00:25):
But yeah.
So the idea is you have to let go.
You have to be okay with yourself or othersfailing.
You get to be okay with others leaving, and itsucks.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
(00:47):
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forrett.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
(01:11):
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IP cybersecuritystrategy.
(01:35):
Just go to building scale dot net slash health.
Today's guest is Jeff Myers.
Jeff returns to the Building Scale podcast fora second episode, still owner CEO of DS
Architecture, a leading design firm inCleveland.
He champions culture based design approachfocused on people and design excellence.
(01:56):
Jeff also is passionate about connectingarchitecture and society to make a difference.
He advocates for mental health through NationalAlliance on Mental Health and promotes
diversity in the AEC industry.
DS Architecture is built on the principle thatpeople come first, combining innovative design
with a strong cultural foundation.
And more bio fund this on Jeff, just go backand look at episode 9, which was, an eternity
(02:22):
ago.
We probably recorded it 3 years ago.
So episode 9, were above a 120.
I think, for building scale proper without thebuilding connections, it's, like, 117 is what
your episode is.
So welcome back to the show, Jeff.
Woo.
Woo.
Woo.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, everybody.
Yes.
Oh.
Right?
(02:43):
If you're not watching if you're not watching,we're all rocking hats, Christmas hats.
Will has a a bear ski hat on, but that's thethe Chicago Christmas as he says.
Yeah.
You know, we're all foams over here, with withthe season that we've been having, so I'm just
gonna leave it at there.
Yes.
Absolutely.
So, tell tell us.
It's been, like I said, about 3 years.
(03:04):
What's happened?
What what has happened?
What's growth look like?
What's what's going on in the firm?
What's new?
Tell us everything.
Well, I mean, first, we're still having fun.
That's the most important thing.
We are entering in a time of since the firsttransition from Dave Summers to me, we're
entering a time of new partnership, which, willstart and wrap up by the next end of next year.
(03:26):
So that's very exciting.
We are having one of our best years ofprofitability ever.
New clients, some new staff, and, competing nowat the top level of Cleveland.
We are you know, I think 3 years ago, you heardme talk about becoming the premier culture
based design firm.
I'll go out there and say we are the premierculture based design firm.
(03:46):
We live in Ohio.
Right?
Oh, laying down the smack.
Yeah.
For sure.
New partners.
That's very, very exciting.
So, what what does that look like?
What are new partners in the next year?
Tell us about that.
Yeah.
There's, individual, Eric Prose, who's ourdirector of design.
Extremely creative.
When I became partner, in 2010, the first hireI wanted to make was somebody who was design
(04:11):
oriented.
And I reached out to Kent State, and theprofessor there who was the associate dean, I
said, I want your most creative person in thelast 5 years, and, Air Prose was his name.
And, he had job offers at all the major firms,and we were a small four person firm.
And he joined us for the civil concept that Ipromised growth.
And so here we fast forward, the 2004, andhe'll be, one of the partners.
(04:37):
Our business development director, will beelevated to a partner, and our CFO CEO will be
a partner.
Interestingly, though, Eric and I will be theonly 2 architects.
Felicia is our CFO, COO, not trained as anarchitect.
And Phil Lanier, our business developmentmarketing director, who is not an architect,
will be promoted to partners.
(04:57):
Little different.
A lot of firms are all focused on architectsand we want a diversity of ownership.
Wow.
Yeah.
Real quick back up for one second.
Why going to why pursuing this path?
Why partnership?
Why bring on I mean, aren't you diluting sortof your equity stake?
Well, that's interesting.
(05:17):
It depends on how you think about money and theconcept of money.
100% of a $100 will is a $100.
10% of $10,000,000 is a lot more than a $100.
So the idea is, yeah, while the percentage maydecrease, the idea of having others buy into
the growth of the company investing in them andthem investing in me, it's a value it's a value
(05:41):
proposition.
And to me, it's a no brainer.
Could I make more if I kept the firm togetherand, was the sole owner, right, as a staff?
And, you know, I'm 45 and 20, 25 years sell it.
Can I make more money?
Maybe.
That's a big gamble.
Right?
To me, the the value proposition isn't there.
(06:01):
The idea of bringing these individuals on now,we've been through, you know, me and Eric been
through 13 years together, me and Felicia, 8years together as our our integrator or COO,
CFO, till for 4 or 5 years.
We know we can go through wars together, and weknow we're all gonna benefit from each other.
Unlike the Bears, we're gonna be a winningteam.
(06:24):
Listen.
You're a Browns fan.
You don't get to say those things.
True.
So we we heard a ton about, Felicia, on thefirst episode.
I remember being, you know, that thatcornerstone, that rock, that operator to your
visionariness.
So what has it been like kinda giving somereigns over to to other people?
(06:45):
Right?
So, Phil you said Phil's in, BD marketing seedor, you know, kinda leads that.
What what does that look like?
That used to be the thing that you did.
Yeah.
That's how I made my way to partner, and it'show we grew the firm.
You know, it's been almost literally a fullyear where I turn out over the reins.
I don't review potential leads.
(07:05):
Phil reviews potential leads, even my leadsthat I bring in.
And I still bring in about 50% of the revenueof projects, but I still give it to him.
And he makes final decision on pursuit or nopursuit.
And, I was averaging about 40 to 42%.
You know, the national average for architectsis 40 to 60.
If you are hitting above 60%, the idea is yourfees are too low, and that's why you're getting
(07:29):
hired.
And if you're under 40, the idea is that, yourbrand has something wrong with it and or you're
growing.
And so you're you're going from AAA to MajorLeague Baseball.
Right?
And so you're not gonna hit this high of apercentage.
I turned it over, and I am sad but very happyto say he hit 52% this year.
So how's it going?
It's amazing.
(07:50):
And I will say the benefit to that is he, looksat it a different way.
I'm looking at it from a business end.
I need cash flow, revenue, etcetera, so I willchase more than he will.
But he'll be like, well, this is a type ofproject we want, and he's not burdened with the
idea of cash flow.
Right?
And that's a good thing.
And for, you know, for a couple years, I wasready to turn it over.
(08:12):
And finally, we decided as a a business teamlast year that I would turn it over and proud
of myself for delegating and elevating.
And and I didn't know he was hitting 52% until,the the end of Q3.
And, we had our leadership team meeting lastweek, and it was our biggest best surprise.
(08:32):
And that is my biggest best surprise is that,how it's always done.
Yep.
And then flip side, you know, turning overdesign to Eric, that's been a long process, but
it probably happened about 4 or 5 years ago.
And he really focused on this concept ofthought leadership and building a brand of
design.
You know, we now have award winning projects,and I think our portfolio compete against
(08:54):
anybody.
But the big thing in the last year is Eric wasable to attract major design directors and
senior interior design leaders from other firmsthat come to us, and they brought their
portfolios.
So turning over design to him has also createdmore opportunity, and this is why the idea of
leadership, you know, our business is betterbecause of Felicia.
Our business development and marketing isbetter because of Phil.
(09:17):
Our design is better because of Eric.
And so the, you know, the true thing is get getgood people and get the out of the way.
That's, always true.
People yeah.
Obviously, we we believe people being afoundation for scale.
Like, you need to have the right people, youneed the right processes, and put the right
technology in place.
(09:37):
And people, they they cease to, surprise me atthis point.
I feel like every time I hear an amazing storylike like yours, right, the example of yours,
I'm like, of course.
Because when you put the right people in theright seats, they do unbelievable things, and
that's how business
goes.
We noticed something, and, for those that arenot actually watching the actual video version
(10:05):
of this, Jeff is in a very open environment andhis desk doesn't look any different from anyone
else.
If anything, you got shustered away, shusteredaway from, operations, probably to prevent
operational chaos.
Absolutely.
Visionary whiplash.
(10:26):
So typically we see kind of leadership beingschushered away, but into offices, right.
Where they have their own office, corner officeor otherwise.
Why don't you have, I mean, it's a very openlayout, open design.
Yeah.
It's, why don't you have your, assembly office,you know, in some corner closed off?
(10:52):
Well, I I would say, it, leaders eat last, and,what I mean by that is, without the team, the
leader is nothing.
And in order to kind of make that statement ona daily basis, I sit in the open studio.
I sit at the same size desk.
I I can overhear things, which is good and bad,and they can overhear me having meaningful
(11:14):
conversations with clients about difficultiesor about the idea that we don't negotiate fee.
We negotiate scope.
I'm also very approachable.
Right?
And, so they can come up and, interrupt or aska question just like they could anybody else.
Right?
I can jump up and participate in a designmeeting.
They, it it's just the idea of collaboration,which is one of our core values.
(11:39):
But it's also about making a statement.
I'm just one player on the team.
And, when I played professional ultimateFrisbee, I I, bought jackets for everybody that
said 1 27th.
There were 27 players on the team, and the ideawas we can only do our 1 27th.
And when a big game comes on, we don't need ourstars to do 2 or 3 20 sevens.
(12:00):
Just do your 1 27th, and we're gonna be good.
And that's the same concept I brought to thefirm.
Everybody do your role.
Everybody be excited about your role.
Be excited about what other people are doing,but we're all just equals.
We just happen to have different positionsinside of this architecture.
So I don't I don't want I don't need to be abigger desk.
(12:21):
We have areas we can go do HR type stuff,etcetera, but day to day, I'm I'm just another
player.
Very interesting.
I love how you talk about that, as well as the127th or essentially one over part.
Why is it, we've definitely seen this,especially at the partner level, where the
(12:45):
partners are sort of dual rolling.
The, the one role is sort of, let's say the BDbringing on.
And then the other part is the business side.
And then sometimes the third hat is they'restill doing design work.
Right.
So, how are you able to manage this or makesure that that's happening?
Well, a scorecard.
(13:06):
You know, as the current 100% owner and excitedthen the next 5 years to have, you know, 30% of
that to other people, the scorecard tells methat I can let go.
Right?
It's a simple one zero matrix.
8 most important things in the firm.
So if I see ones there, that knows that we'rewe're hitting the goals that we set as a group.
(13:28):
I so it was the hardest but best thing I'veever did is let go.
Because as a leader, the biggest hurdle togrowth is yourself.
And if you are a funnel that every decisionneeds to be made from, you cannot grow.
That is just the fact.
You cannot scale.
So decisions need to be made by other people,and you, you know, for me, it was architect,
(13:52):
project manager, shifted to businessdevelopment, shifted to, you know, kind of,
marketing and overseeing that whole thing andgrowth to visionary CEO.
And every time I did that, I have to let go ofsomething.
And I'll I'll be honest, who my staff doesn'tI'm afraid to be an architect again.
I don't know how buildings are put together andany more specifications scare me, But, like, I
(14:16):
had to let go of everything, and now I have tolet go of the leadership roles of the major
functions of the firm.
And if I don't, I will prohibit us fromgrowing.
Luckily, I've had people that have gone throughpersonal, you know, with my mental health,
which, you know, we'll talk about it, I think,at some point, but previously talked about in
the last podcast.
Trust them personally, and I trust themprofessionally.
(14:36):
And there's a a concept of book called RadicalCandor, and you can challenge people
professionally if you care about thempersonally.
And we all do that, the 4 of us.
So letting go is the idea of growth.
It's a value proposition again, Will.
So you mentioned decision making.
Right?
So, how how is that done now, and how do yousee that changing, as it I know your leadership
(14:59):
team's been together for a while, so thishopefully doesn't have a massive amount of
change to it.
But, how how does it look today?
And then, what what changes may happen?
Yeah.
I mean, there's no nothing formal right now.
It's a, kind of a a pinky swear handshake, but,we're making big decisions for the firm.
And this this literally just happened last weekat our this is a very timely conversation.
(15:22):
Happened at our, annual conversation.
But generally speaking, when the business teamneeds to make decisions, there are 4 of us at
the table, those 4 individuals I talked about.
We all try to represent our box or ourposition, and Felicia does a good job because
she's the leader of that group of letting usinterject our personal feelings and protecting
(15:43):
our boss boxes at the same time.
She does a good job of that.
But at the end of the day, decisions are madeone of 3 ways.
Consensus, which happens 95% of the time.
Majority, that's probably 4% of the time.
And Felicia could be losing 3 to 1, and shemakes a decision, and that's the decision.
(16:03):
And you would say, well, you're the owner,Jeff.
Why aren't you making the decision?
Well, if I have to make every decision in thefirm, I am not free to think big picture.
I self negotiate against myself.
I say, well, you know, that's risky.
Right?
And I allow Felicia to play the role of keepingan eye on not dying while I can put my full
(16:24):
strength into growing.
Right?
So these two things, it's allowing me to bemore free.
So, recently, we were discussing potentiallybringing on another service line, and me, Eric,
and Phil were all in.
Let's go.
Let's do this.
And Felicia wrote a little sticky note and putit on the table.
It says, mission critical architecture.
(16:45):
We got 3 more years of this.
And until that, we're not allowed to explorethese other service lines.
And I whined, and Phil whined.
And Eric's like, I can see your point of view.
And about after 10 minutes, she's like, we'redone.
We're moving forward.
And so the idea is she did.
She did the right thing.
You know?
It took me a day, 2 days to stop whining tomyself and pity and, you know, all this great
(17:07):
opportunity.
But, like, yeah, if we chase something else,we're gonna forget forget our core competency.
So that's how it currently works.
I will say 99.9% of the time, that's the way itworks.
As the owner right now, I do have the abilityif I want to to say, nope.
I don't care.
We're doing this.
I'd I've done that maybe 2 or 3 times over thelast 7 years with her.
When they become partners, there will be aprovision in our operating agreement where if
(17:31):
the 3 of them outvote me, doesn't matter if Iown 95% of the firm, they win.
And I think, again, that protects the firmfrom, my neurodivergence, and also my optimism.
They're kind of interrelated, but I can't betoo optimistic.
Right?
So I'm we need to protect there's 20 of us.
If you add their kids and their significantothers, we're we're responsible for the lives
(17:57):
of 50 people, and it shouldn't be more.
Do I want it to
be all Jeff Myers?
Right.
So very astute.
It's very, very long forward thinking, and tobe aware that level of awareness, I think,
requires being able to step back for not just amoment.
(18:18):
I think it requires stepping back for a lotlonger to have her call it a clarity break, to
be able to relish what you are and what you'renot good at, to give up that control super hard
for those that are going through sort ofletting go.
(18:39):
Right.
Because it does require trust, trusting yourteam, etcetera.
How did you get over it?
Essentially letting go.
Right.
So that they can make the decisions and notjust you.
Well, that that I mean, wow.
I hadn't thought about this in that way in along time.
Well, the the company had 6 people who, gottogether, in 2015 to allow us to grow, and we
(19:07):
followed a, a concept of EOS, entrepreneuroperating system, or the book's called
Traction.
And the book tells you that, at least 1 third,if not more, of the group that gets together
will be gone by the time it's trulyimplemented.
Here we are 9 years later, and only me and Ericout of those 6 remain.
(19:27):
So we actually lost 2 thirds.
And what you have to do is understand that whenyou set a vision, a new vision or rethought
vision, not everybody's gonna be aligned withthat.
But if you don't trust and you don't let go andyou don't let others fail and learn and or fail
(19:47):
and leave, where then you failed and learned.
Right?
You can never do this concept that I have.
We've had some major, quote, earthquakes in thefirm where at one point, I brought in about a
third of the revenue and 2 others brought eachin a 3rd, and those 2 others have left.
And because of the team I have together at theleadership level, the first time we kinda
(20:10):
panicked.
We were like, what are we gonna do?
We just lost a third of the frontline driverbringing in the revenue.
We panicked.
We talked about all kinds of quick ownershiptransition type ideas to get others bought in
so they wouldn't leave.
We talked about maybe do we sell?
We paid for a, you know, a a professionalvaluation.
Maybe they go to market.
And then it it kinda smoothed out.
(20:32):
And then, just a little over a year ago,another one third of our revenue, is no longer
with the firm.
And, we all said, we're gonna be fine.
We're we've been through too many wars.
This is gonna be fine.
It's gonna be hard.
This is gonna be difficult, but we're gonna befine.
And so I guess it takes time.
It takes alignment, you know, of, a direction.
(20:56):
You know, you don't want, Iron Man fightingwith the Hulk.
You want them to be the Avengers.
And at some point, you galvanize the team, andthe 4 of us are the Avengers.
Of course of course, I'm either Iron Man or ifwe flip to the other other multiverse, I'm
Batman, of course.
But just wanna and Batman is Batman I lovebecause he's not actually a superhero.
(21:17):
He's just a human who works really hard anddoes good for the world.
But yeah.
So the idea is you have to let go.
You have to be okay with yourself or othersfailing.
You have to be okay with others leaving, and itsucks.
It's really hard.
But then you get a team of that's galvanizedand a team that is believes that we're gonna
inspire together and move earth one closer togood together.
(21:39):
Nothing can rock us.
Nothing.
I love
go go ahead, Justin.
There's so much truth in, conflict together.
Right?
Like, not not conflicting internally, but,like, facing conflict as a team and, like, how
much that brings you together and then bringsconfidence to when the next conflict comes of
(22:02):
oh my god.
Like, we're like, not a big deal.
Like, we're gonna get through this.
Like, yeah, it'll be hard.
Like, you know, we're we're not, like,oblivious to the concept.
This isn't so, you know, business isn't easy.
However, like, we're totally gonna be fine.
And, like, then now, you know, it's fast orthis year and, like, the firm's, you know,
awesome.
It's growing and and everything.
Like, you know, it it can be a dark days.
(22:24):
And if you let those dark days, affect you andget gloomy, like, that can have the negative
effect.
Or the opposite of it is, like, yeah.
This will be hard, but, like, we're gonna getthrough it.
So it's it's fine.
There's a there's a, I can't remember thegentleman's name, but he did a lot of,
inspirational speaking back, like, in themiddle of the last century.
(22:47):
So, like, thirties and forties public speaking.
And he said, when it is summer when it issummer, the winter will come.
And then when the winter comes and it's thedarkest day of the year, you have to believe
that summer will come.
And what makes people great or businesses greatis the moment that spring starts, you start
(23:08):
preparing for winter again.
You don't celebrate spring.
You start preparing for winter because guesswhat?
Winter's coming.
Right?
And I will say that's my team's belief that toprotect those 50 people, 20 in the the staff,
but their kids and stuff, we always have to bethinking about summer and thinking about
winter.
(23:28):
Isn't tomorrow is literally the longest day ofthe year or the the shortest day of the year,
literally tomorrow.
That's what you're saying.
Yeah.
Very, very fitting, do
you wanna build a snowman?
Yeah.
Exactly.
So I think that's a good segue for somethingthat we had talked about in the pre call, is
round decision making as well and sort of our,you know, when arguments do arise.
(23:52):
Right?
Because I think all different people, differentcoming from different backgrounds, they talked
about, decision making on client greater thancompany, greater than team, greater than self.
Wanna reflect on that a little bit?
Yeah.
I mean, it's a con concept that we discussed inthe pre call, and, I love that you know, Will,
(24:17):
I love that you create the thought in me that II maybe have had but couldn't articulate.
I love this concept about when there's conflictand you're debating or arguing, maybe you can
get heated.
Who are you arguing or debating for?
You know?
Is it for yourself?
Is it for the team?
(24:39):
Is it for the company or the client?
And you have to put you have to decide whereyou're arguing from and where the other person
may be coming from to have true conflictresolution.
And I've reflected on that.
I I have that in my notes to bring up, at ourstate of company, which is on on January 10th.
Yeah.
So it's a I, you know, I love these type ofthings because I learned something, and I love
(25:02):
learning.
And so,
I like this concept.
Why not the other way around?
Why not, you know, flip it around?
Let's say team first, then company or companyfirst, then client, then self.
Right?
Why not flip it around?
Well, I think I think, you know, and I I kindabrought this up a little bit is I think if it's
(25:26):
a personal self issue, like, somebody passedaway and or, you know, there's a a reason that
you can't put team above self, that's fine.
But what I understand the concept to be is thatthis is within the conflict resolution of the
business.
And so we take that, variable out of it.
(25:47):
And, if somebody's protecting self, team cannever succeed.
If somebody wants the big office in the cornerand wants to be able to shut the door and not
have the desk that's the same size of everybodyelse, they're putting self above everybody.
Why is client the top of that or the first partof that?
Well, we have to pay taxes and bills andinsurance and salaries, and the clients have to
(26:10):
be happy.
That doesn't mean you can't fire clients.
Right?
We're talking about the good clients.
Sometimes you need to fire clients and that'sokay.
So so to me, that that's the order it has to goin.
K.
You know, so when we talked a little bit aboutthis, the conversations, cause we've seen a few
firms like this where there's an argument to bemade that should even client be part of the
(26:40):
sort of this equation.
Right?
So company is essentially company greater thanteam, greater than self, and client shouldn't
even be a factor of this, that it is sort of ait's a branch of thinking from the company.
Would you, you know, would you agree ordisagree with that and why?
(27:04):
I I would we have 9 psychographic, indicatorsof a client.
Must respect architecture, must, appreciate ourcore values, must be growth minded, must be
able to be educated, must be well connected,must give back to the purpose greater than
themselves.
(27:24):
And these nine things define our ideal client.
And if they meet 7 to 9 of those, then clientis greater than company, greater than team,
greater than self.
If they only match 6, then company is greaterthan team, greater than self, greater than
client.
So you have to evaluate a client not based ontheir potential revenue, but on the benefit of
(27:50):
what they align with and, ultimately, how muchstress do they bring to your team.
I've fired clients before.
It was very interesting the first time I didthat when Dave Summers was just still a
partner.
I wrote a letter, that client left for a betterfee.
And 3 years later came back and goes, I don'tneed fee proposals anymore.
(28:10):
I just need your services.
Right?
And so that's where we flip the paradigm.
So it it and every time I fired a client, whichhas probably happened about a handful of times
in my I don't like to say this, 15 years, this
part here.
My staff has come and been very appreciative,and there's been a weight off of them.
And they were more productive, and we make moremoney.
(28:31):
And it's one of those things that's hard to betangible about, but, like, the theory of it
works.
Right?
So both will.
So
when did you get these 9, psychographics?
Like, when did this idea come into place?
That's super very smart.
It makes some sense because, like, you know,everybody always says, like, not all clients
(28:52):
are worth the money or, like, not all money'sgood money.
Right?
Like, and that is a way to say, like, hey.
Like, we're gonna make this more metrical.
Right?
Like, and say, like, hey.
Here are the the 9 pieces that you gotta, youknow, you gotta fit into at least 7 of those.
Otherwise, this relationship's probably notgonna work out in the long
Well, I'll start with the why that thesepsychographic, ideas is is somewhat what you
(29:17):
said, Justin, about not every client's worthit, but not every architect is a match for
every client.
Right?
There are firms out there that will succeedwith clients that aren't a good fit for us.
How do we come up with it?
Again, I'm going back to the the, you know, theconcept of EOS.
It talks about there are 3 ways to attack amarket.
(29:41):
And, it's geographic, you know, your location,the product, or our our case, the typology,
higher education maybe.
And then the last one is client, and you haveto have a way to define all three of those,
geographic or Northeast Ohio.
Maybe we're national.
Right?
We're talking about we have an individual who'sthinking about opening up in the Italy office.
(30:03):
Right?
So that's geographic.
Alright?
Typology, higher education, health care.
But if somebody asks us to do, Department ofRehabilitation and Corrections, not our
typology, not our product.
Right?
And then geographic or, psychographic, theclient.
Is it the right client?
So you have these it's a it's a very complexRubik's cube, and, you have to turn to Rubik's
(30:25):
cube and all the sides have to be the samecolor.
If they're not, walk away from the geographiclocation.
We shouldn't go to Aruba.
If it's not the right typology, jails, weshould walk away from it.
If it's not the right client, we should walkaway from it.
When you put it in that parameters to me, it'ssimple.
You you made it absolutely simple.
I feel like I've talked about this a lot oftimes with a lot of people, and I've not had
(30:51):
them, say, hey.
Like, we have x amount.
Right?
You're 9, right, 9, psychographic componentsthat are going to tell us if this client is is
good or not good for us.
Right?
Like, not necessarily for anybody, but, like,for us in our culture and our environment, what
we're trying to achieve, like, this is how weknow that that client fits the culture, not
(31:14):
necessarily just the product and just thelocation.
Right?
So that's that's super smart, Jeff.
Yeah.
We have a client that is probably the mostintelligent client we've ever had.
So intelligent that he can run very fast in hismind, and he can come across very self assured,
which he should be, very educated.
(31:35):
And he causes challenges in meetings because heasked questions.
And if
you don't know the answer to the question,he'll ask another.
And if he gets to 3 or 4, he gets veryfrustrated.
Rightfully so.
He's paying us a lot of money.
I'm not so different than with my, myconsultants.
Right?
And so is he the right client for a certainproject manager?
(31:56):
Maybe not.
Right?
But he only has he he meets 8 out of the 9.
Right?
And only does he not meet the 9 in certaincircumstances.
But now if you overlay me into those meetings,he's 9 out of 9.
Right?
So the reason we have to hit 7 or 6 to let gois because the there's ways to navigate the
(32:18):
others.
Right?
And so that's why it's not like, oh, you don'tmeet this one ideal?
We're letting you go.
That's dumb.
Like, there's ways to maneuver 3 of those.
There's not ways to maneuver 4 or 5 of those.
Yeah.
No.
Because you're a partner.
Right?
You're not just a a vendor.
Right?
Like, we say that all the time.
Like, we wanna be partners on vendors.
(32:38):
We wanna be perceived as a partner, not avendor because, like, yeah, we're gonna work
with you.
Like, so like, hey.
Like, you need something special.
You need something that's a little differentthan, you know, what we're giving you, and
that's fine.
Now we can't change all of our processes andall of our structures for you.
Like, you can't do that, but we can adjustbecause, like, you're unique as as every
(32:59):
business is.
So that's I love that.
I'm soup I'm more excited now than ever, Jeff.
Thank you so much.
I already wrote this down.
This will be in our leadership, level 10, comeMonday.
So
You should never change your process ever.
Yeah.
Something else that we talked about, before,and I know you leaned into it, which is
(33:25):
creating a team where neurodivergence is notjust accepted.
You're looking for
it.
Can you talk a little bit about why and maybewhat is there a business advantage as to why
you're doing that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I I'm not gonna rehash the wholepast.
(33:47):
Go back to episode 9, as Justin said, and youcan you can hear my story.
Diversity, equity, inclusion, and the die ideaof equity, is, you know, a lot of this concept
of white male privilege for me.
I I grew up in, inner city, Youngstown, and Iwas the minority in the minority.
(34:07):
And I always say, stack me against the female.
I got a 100 meter head start.
Doesn't mean I didn't work hard.
I worked my ass off, man.
Like, I came from humble beginnings, foodstamps when they were actually food stamps.
You know, it doesn't mean I didn't work hard,but I did have an advantage.
So, you know, there's the whole, racialdisadvantage.
(34:28):
There's the whole, you know, female, male, theway you identify yourself or, all that kind of
stuff.
But for me, there's another, what I call thesilent, demographic, which is those with mental
illness.
1 out of 8 of us are diagnosed with a mentalillness, and I am hashtag bipolar.
And I will tell you that my bipolar bringsamazing ideas of thought, or at least others
(34:53):
will tell me that.
So I I believe it now.
But I will you know, I and not to dive deep,but I've had very, very dark times because of
my neurodivergence.
So the concept is if we're gonna lean into thisthought idea of diversity, equity, inclusion,
Why do we do that?
Right?
Why is the Earth chasing sustainability?
(35:14):
I will tell you because it's profitable.
Yes.
We care about it personally.
Yes.
We wanna leave the world a better place forgenerations.
But if business owners and governments werelosing money to be sustainable, they wouldn't
do it.
And it's the same concept with diversity,equity, inclusion.
You know, if you are able to hire a diverseteam, Mark Twain said, if you're the smartest
(35:39):
person at a table, you're at the wrong table.
Right?
Mhmm.
So if we get 5 of our demographic, goodlooking, we're weird headbands or hats or
whatever at a table, we're not getting valueout of that.
Right?
If I surround myself with Felicia and Cliff,who's an African American, and, you know, if we
(36:00):
have we you know, I'm very proud.
I'm a Kent State grad.
We have more non Kent State grads than we do atKent State grads, diversity of thought.
And so diversity of thought comes from adiversity background no matter what color you
are or what race you are or what gender youare, no difference with neurodivergence.
Right?
Like, we want people who think outside the box.
(36:20):
And I would say all the greats, and I literallymean all the greats you study in your history
books, they're neurodivergent.
I guarantee it.
You can't find one who is not likely, one ofthe, you know, diagnosed mental illnesses.
We like to use the word neurodivergence, and Italked about AthleanMinder last time.
So is there a value proposition?
(36:40):
Yeah.
You know why my company is, is kicking butt isbecause we share that story.
Right?
And I I met with Kurt Curtis, Moody, who runsthe largest African American company, Moody
Nolan, who passed away recently.
Awesome architect.
Great man.
(37:02):
And I said, what does diversity mean to you?
And he said to me, diversity means that anybodythat walks into your firm or knows about your
firm understands they've become CEO of yourfirm and owner of your firm.
That's what diversity is.
Always hire the best talent, Jeff.
But knowing that others can achieve greatnessor the pinnacle of the firm, that's what
(37:22):
diversity really is.
And for me, that should includeneurodivergence.
And so, yeah, we have others coming to us, andI bring a unique skill set just like I do as
bipolar.
Somebody with bipolar as I do have struggles.
Right?
There's been interviews I couldn't make becauseI was depressed.
We have individuals that are OCD.
(37:43):
They they have amazing talents better thanmost.
But if we don't put them in the right seat,failure.
But there's a value proposition there.
And my firm is a case study of that.
That's powerful.
Deep how do you how do you go to attract more?
Like, how what how do you you know, everybodywants to hire diversity in all kinds of
(38:03):
different ways.
Like, how do you go to the market and say,like, we are open.
Obviously, we want the best talent, but we areopen to this because a lot of times mental
health is very stigmatized and very much likelike, oh, that person's bipolar can become a
very, you know, heavy thing to say aboutsomebody that has a massive impact on their
(38:26):
life and in their careers and all those things.
There's lots of ways to do it.
First way is to find individuals that wannahear about and put you on their proud podcast.
Right?
You you're you have to be open and proud aboutit.
You know, with neurodivergence, I always saypoliticians and performers are open about
(38:48):
talking about it.
Politician or about performers being athleticor music, they talk about themselves.
Politicians talk about family members.
There's not a lot of people in our space thattalk about it.
So just talking about it attracts people.
Right?
And, it's a it's a grassroots movement.
I mean, maybe.
It's interesting to think about.
(39:09):
Maybe in 10 years, I'll put a sign up on thehighway that says neurodivergent.
Welcome or something like that.
But right now, it's just a grassroots movement.
Everybody I meet, you know, you guys or, aclient or, you know, a cons a consultant,
potential team member, I talk about it and howI'm proud of it.
(39:30):
We're just in an interview at at a majoruniversity, 2nd largest university in Ohio, and
I talked about it at that interview as adifferent something that makes us different
than other firms.
Right?
So he's gonna be proud of it, sell it, and ittakes time.
Proud and proud.
No.
It makes sense.
Yeah.
You you've mentioned EOS a bunch.
Let's talk a little bit about that.
So, you read this book Traction, a long timeago.
(39:54):
You've used EOS concepts, throughout the growthof the firm.
What does that look like today?
Like, what what things are you doing that areEOS backed or, EOS adjacent?
Well, I I think no matter what you do, you haveto have a system in place, and I think a lot
of, for for business.
And I think a lot of, professionals, be itdoctors, lawyers, IT, whatever, you're educated
(40:19):
on being a deep diver.
I under when I graduated college, I understoodarchitecture very, very deep.
And as you run a business, you become a shallowdiver, and you have to understand a lot about
everything.
And you need a system to help you do that.
For for us, it's EOS and traction, GinaWhitman, the founder of that concept, when I
give him credit because it it definitelychanged my life.
(40:40):
That concept there is about me letting go,which is a lot of what we talked about.
You know?
I think in that book, it's I'm I'm gonnaparaphrase it, but there's an individual
walking across the mountain top and talkingthinking to himself all the great things he's
accomplished and all the great things he'sgonna accomplish.
And then he trips and he falls and he grabs avine on the way down.
And, he starts thinking about, I didn't get todo this.
(41:01):
I didn't get to do that.
And, you know, he's he looks up, and he says,god, he's not really spiritual.
Can you help me out?
And, god goes from the skies, let go of thevine, and you'll be fine.
And he looks around looks around.
God, is there any other way?
Let go of the vine, and you'll be fine.
So for us, EOS is about letting go, and that'sthe major concept for me.
(41:25):
And now the leadership team, which I talkedabout, they're starting to let go.
So where where is that now?
That theory of that concept says processes willbe your hardest and likely your last thing that
you implement, and we are very close to havingprocesses.
We grew before, and we failed because we didn'thave processes.
(41:46):
And we've really focused on processes.
So right now, that's our biggest thing,processes.
For a while there as a designer and eccentricwith Allego bat or, yeah, Allego, necktie on,
You know, the idea is processes will make itnot fun.
That's not true.
Actually, processes, if they're implemented andbought into, gives you more time to do what you
(42:06):
want to.
Structure makes, people have this concept ofstructure that it takes away freedom and takes
away fun, but it's totally the opposite.
It's the opposite.
Structure makes things way more fun and givesyou a 1000% more freedom.
Yeah.
If it's scary.
Sure.
No question.
You're, yeah.
(42:27):
So, I think, when I when I think of EOS and,actually, you mentioned the 10th of, January is
your, state of the union or your your company,call or company rally.
Ours is too.
In the 2 days prior to that, we have our EOS,annual planning session with our implementer.
So, very we're in very similar time or timeframes and then just kind of vibes it.
(42:51):
Well, what I wanted to mention, is, you know,the thought process around process, and whether
or not you automate, whether or not yousimplify.
Right.
How close to perfection are you trying to get aprocess, put into place?
(43:14):
Well, the first time we're at a process, it's 8pages.
Right?
And then you refine it and it should become 6.
And Elon Musk would say it should become 4 or3, and you don't have the process right until
you start adding back to what you cut.
Right?
Perfection?
Never.
If you have a process that is perfect, you'renot growing, You're stagnant.
(43:41):
But you have a process that you don't feel likeyou need to add to, you should be cutting.
And I think I think, you know, I have a lot ofI I reference a lot of people.
But Elon Musk came out with that concept, or atleast the first time I heard it, if you don't
cut a process to the point where you feel likeyou have to add, you didn't cut it enough.
So for me, perfection is simple.
(44:03):
Simplicity.
Right?
So, you can have a process, and then you canhave a bear book behind it.
Right?
So, like, the idea of a bear book, if you'venever heard it, it's Jeff's getting chased by a
bear.
They get in the fight.
Pray for the bear, I would say, in the fight.
But, obviously, Jeff Jeff lost.
Right?
Because I'm like, well, he tripped.
He tripped and the bear sat on my accident.
You want a bear book because you can't geteverything out of my head.
(44:26):
So process is trying to describe that, but youneed a bear book to back it up somewhere.
So
It it's also very true when you hit ceilings,that process gen the processes just generally
need to change.
Right?
It worked up at this point, and now it doesn'twork anymore.
And the I think that drives lots of, leaderscrazy because they're like, we fix the sales
(44:50):
problem or we fix the client delivery problem.
We fix those things.
These are things we fixed.
It's like, yeah.
But that was 2 years ago or 3 years ago, andnow you've grown so much that those problems
are not the same problems, so you have tochange the process.
Right.
Yeah.
We've never used a, talent acquisition company,and we're using a talent acquisition company
(45:10):
because we need the right person at the righttime.
And our word-of-mouth doesn't do that, and sowe changed our process because our number one
ceiling right now is getting projectarchitects.
And so but, yeah, you have to be able tochange.
So no.
Will, not perfection.
It's a journey.
Okay.
And, when you initially, when you're goingthrough you're going to break the process at
(45:38):
some, at some point, Do you let the processbreak or, do you try to stay ahead of it and
try to change it before it breaks?
Yeah.
I, again, I'm gonna go back to Felicia.
We started our, our annual conversation, lastweek, and, she asked us these, like, questions,
(46:01):
personal best for the year, business best forthe year, biggest positive surprise of the
year, and what ceiling are we gonna hit next.
And I don't think that's written anywhere inthat book, but she asked us.
And so they put us in a mind frame of, like,yeah.
We have to be thinking about what ceilings areusually process related.
Right?
(46:21):
Usually.
And so we all came up with these things thatwere if we don't fix this now in a year from
now, 6 months, 3 years from now, we're gonna bein trouble.
And so try to stay ahead of it.
Saying that there are times where you can'tstay ahead of it, like when your server craps
out and your IT IT company has been telling youfor a year.
(46:43):
You didn't invest $30,030,000.
You're like, I'm not investing $30,000.
It breaks, and you're like, well, we didn'tstay ahead of that.
So
well, maybe now's a good time to talk about, Itook a little tech, 8 ball.
Last time we spoke, 8 ball was kind of big foryou.
(47:05):
And one of the reasons you were trying to sortof create 8 ball is to manage really, I guess,
sort of workload stress levels, etcetera,burnout.
And you were able to do it in a way or tryingto do it in a way where you could actually see
(47:26):
the numbers before you hit burnout.
Right.
Which is really hard to like, see it until it'salready happened.
So what's where's April now?
Well, you know, as you guys know more thananybody, because we had some offline
conversations about April, Felicia, again, didthe right thing and kept me mission critical
(47:48):
and would not give me resources to help thisidea of taking that to market.
And so I was by myself trying to push itforward, which I you know, it's one of those
times where I failed and I learned.
So we had developed it further, and I stillwanted to take it to market, but the I think
I'll you know what?
8 Ball was trying to be was a firm managementsoftware, not a project management software.
(48:10):
And a lot of our industry and the AEC field istrying to be project management.
In project management, if every project isprofitable, then, thus, the firm has to be
profitable.
But when a project is not profitable, thatperson gets shamed or whatever, even though
they may have had a client that the partnershould have fired, and they didn't.
Right?
And so we try to flip the paradigm.
(48:31):
As long as the firm is profitable, projects canor cannot be profitable, and, the concept of
time is man made.
Right?
So, like, the idea of iteration.
So 8 Ball was trying to get this idea thatwe're all together, and as long as the firm
hits its billing goals each month and eachyear, we'll be profitable.
And some projects are gonna be negative.
(48:52):
Some projects will be profitable.
But if we're all core valuing out, then we'reall working with our core values, and there's
no concern.
So we were getting close with 8 Ball, but theproject management software we had been using
was sun setting, and so we needed a stop gapuntil we got 8 Ball where it needed to be.
It's a very interesting story.
(49:13):
Felicia selected a program, and I wasn't partof that process, and that's that's a delegate
to elevate idea.
But she selected for some reasons, which aregood reasons.
But during the implementation phase, it becamevery clear to both of us it was not the right
solution.
And so, we are kind of behind the 8 ball, notno pun intended.
(49:35):
Yeah.
And we found a program.
I'm gonna give a little plug.
It's called factor AE.
And, what I hate about it is that it's 8 Ballbut better.
And it has built into it.
Literally, you can see a graph of likelyburnout.
You know, utilization rate versus billabletime.
It turns red if somebody's working too manyhours.
(49:57):
And, you know, the gentleman who's our maindeveloper over there, we've been on several
calls together, he was doing our training, andI was asking all these questions as I do.
And he's like, I need to talk to you more aboutthese concepts that you're bringing about.
Why aren't we doing this or that?
And we have a super bro crush on each other.
And and and I get off the line.
(50:18):
I'm like, I love that guy, man.
This program is awesome.
I'm just so upset that they made it better than8 Ball.
And he and Felicia goes, you run anarchitecture firm.
They wanna run a software company.
They have 20 people behind that guy developingthe software.
And so it's better than 8 Ball.
I would highly recommend it if you haven'tlooked at it, factor a e.
It's kind of new and upcoming.
(50:39):
But, yeah, I I also like I can't believe theymade a better mousetrap, and it's not just
better, Will.
It's way better.
And, but they do have 20 people working on it.
So
Okay.
Well,
I appreciate you.
Yeah.
That's one of those lessons.
Like, we spent years developing this concept,and now it's just thrown out.
Right?
We hit a ceiling, found a better opportunity.
(51:01):
You have to know when to let go.
You have to.
Well, you found your limit.
And, Felicia also maybe it was partially lucky,you know, in the way you went about and kind of
found out about this.
But this is a way to actually help really youand the firm focus in and growing kind of the,
(51:24):
you know, and building scale to that.
Felicia knows best.
That's that's what we've learned, over both ofthese episodes that we've had.
Felicia knows best.
No.
Do not disagree.
This has been amazing.
We so we as you know, we have a last questionthat we ask everybody, but, we already know
what you do if you go back 20 years.
(51:44):
So now we wanna flip flip the other side.
Wow.
Where is the firm, or where are you, both in 20years?
You guys didn't prep me for this one.
No.
Did not.
This is And I forgot about it.
As soon as I
just thought of, so that's it makes it moreexciting.
I remember exactly how I answered this questionin episode 9.
(52:07):
Where will we be?
We will be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prizefor changing a social condition both through
architecture and the elimination of stigma ofneurodivergence.
That's where we'll be
in 20 years.
Oh, man.
Those are love the shoes.
(52:29):
Love the shoes.
Oh my god.
And I have unequivocal belief in that we'llmove Earth one inch closer to good.
More power to you.
I love that.
More power more power to all of us.
All of us.
Oh my god.
This is great.
This is so much fun, Jeff.
Thank you so much for giving more us more ofyour time.
Obviously, you already gave time last time.
Listeners, I hope you had a a great time.
(52:51):
Jeff, I'll throw all your social links andstuff in in the, show notes.
But, is there either last parting words or anyway that people can contact you if they wanted
to?
You look up our website to contact us.
Will, Justin, you you guys are some of the bestpeople I've ever met.
You know, I just pointed out there.
I'm very happy with my IT company.
(53:12):
But if you're looking for good people to helpyou out, these 2, man, they are just good good
people.
Thank you, Jeff.
We appreciate that a ton.
As I said, listeners, this was just a blast.
Blast from the past and blast for the future in20 years from now.
So, until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
(53:33):
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(53:55):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time,
keep building scale.
Scale.
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