December 10, 2024 • 52 mins
Dena Prastos delves into her journey in waterfront architecture and her mission-driven entrepreneurship at Indigo River. She shares the challenges of becoming a certified woman-owned business and the impact of creating New York City's waterfront code. The discussion touches on specialization and on-the-job training in AEC, delegation, and the balance between quality control and task outsourcing. Dena talks about leadership growth, managing senior leadership disagreements, and the role of consultants in scaling a business. The episode also explores evolving business processes, software tools, team feedback, company culture, and talent acquisition.
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(00:00):
So if you think of the the floating cities thatare very futuristic and looking like, those are
(00:04):
things that we work on.
We're in the process of writing the firstwaterfront code for New York City.
So there is a lot of opportunity, I think, inthis space, particularly at this moment in time
where climate adaptation is a, you know,trending theme in in much of our work.
And you think about the waterfront as perhapsthe most vulnerable typology that there is
where sea level's rising, there's floodingconcerns and considerations.
(00:24):
And so we're whether formally trained or on thejob trained, we're all trained to look at, you
know, what are the vulnerabilities?
How do we protect against them in our day today working on the waterfront?
So that translates very seamlessly to evenupland typologies where maybe it's a landlocked
site, but there are flooding concerns rightnow, especially with the climate changing.
(00:45):
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you are in
luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Fora.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(01:10):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
(01:33):
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to building scale dot net slash help.
Today's guest is Dina Prasthos, the founder andCEO of Indigo River, a woman owned design firm
(01:57):
leading the way in progressive waterfrontarchitecture, resiliency, and climate
adaptation.
Trailblazing a new industry category, Dina isthe 1st waterfront architect specializing in
client adaptation solutions and integrateddesign, engineering, and technology to address
challenges at the water's edge.
Indigo River operates as a one stop shop forclimate ad adaptation, waterfront
(02:19):
infrastructure, and resiliency projects.
They guide their clients through all projectphases from ideation to construction and
operations.
As a leading authority in New York Harbor andbeyond, they have notable projects such as East
Side Coastal Resiliency in Manhattan, Robert DeNiro's Wildflower Studios in Astoria, River
(02:39):
Ring in Williamsburg, and Harlem River Greenwayin East Harlem, to name a few.
And with all that said, Dina, welcome to theshow.
Hi, Justin.
Thank you for having me.
Hi, Will.
How you doing?
I laugh, simply because, the 2 of you know thatI don't know how to say your last name very
well.
After, I don't know, 38 takes, I got it right.
(03:00):
So at least right ish.
So we're we're good.
We're in a better place now.
But nonetheless, tell us the real story.
So I gave I gave some awesome highlights, buttell us, hey, about you and Indigo River.
Sure.
So I have a background academic background inarchitecture, and I have, an undergrad 5 year
bachelor's degree in architecture and then amaster's in civil engineering.
(03:22):
And my career path that I took was through theconstruction industry, the engineering
industry, and then finally full circle toarchitecture and decided to launch a firm
specializing in what I had experience in, whichis waterfront architecture and infrastructure.
Okay.
So you went the engineering architecture routeand then decided to start a company because
(03:45):
well, tell us, why did you wanna start acompany?
So the experience that I had early in mycareer, both in construction and engineering,
it started out just as a kind of happenstanceproject.
I was putting on a waterfront project andquickly, within a couple years, learn how
nuanced working on the waterfront is throughthe lens of construction.
I was on the design build project in StatenIsland, the Staten Island Ferry Terminal, and I
(04:09):
began seeing the, specialty services that wererequired and the kind of niche areas of
expertise that I was getting experience in.
And so the next company that I worked at 6, 7years later was a marine engineering firm.
And, similarly, it was working on all differentwaterfront typologies.
Often, I was the only kind of architect in theroom.
(04:31):
I wasn't licensed at the time, but I was seeinga lot of other engineers and super specialized
engineering tracks, coastal marine diveengineers.
But these waterfront open public spaces oftenwere not being coordinated by an architect, and
I have the kind of master planner, Renaissancearchitect vision in my head about how an arc
(04:52):
architect operates.
And saw the opportunity for me to serve myagency as an architect in these types of,
geophysical properties.
And so not so it may be different to a lot ofarchitects that specialize on programmatic
types, like hospitals or or things like that.
I decided very intentionally to focus on ageophysical property, which is where nature
(05:12):
meets man made, where dry meets wet, and havenow grown a company.
We're 20 people.
We have engineers.
We have architects.
We have planners.
We have within engineering, we have marinearchitects, coastal architects, excuse me, many
different types of engineering, environmentalengineering.
And within planners, we have urban planners,waterfront typology planners.
And within architects, we have naval architectsthat focus on floating assets.
(05:36):
We have landscape architects and, of course,traditional kind of building and infrastructure
architects that round out our team.
Okay.
So what I just heard is they're not dime adozen because this is the first time that we've
had anyone in on the Waterfront Maritime interms of architecture goes, and we've done
(05:56):
quite a few episodes.
So how do you find these people, or do you haveto just train everyone that comes to you?
Just whatever you did in school, forget it.
And now now you gotta start over.
How does that work?
So I I think there's a lot to be said for whatis learned in school, and even more to be said
for what's learned in practice in the field.
And so the the types of talent that we attractnow, I mean, the on the engineering side, it is
(06:20):
already more specialized.
We have a lot of specialties that, you know,people come out of school in a you know,
whether it's civil or environmental or whateverthe the subdiscipline is, they're already
specialized.
Within architecture and planning, it's not ascommon.
And so I'd say the the types of architects andtypes of planners that we attract do have a
very deep seated appreciation for nature.
(06:41):
Many have dual majors in environmental sciencesand architecture, and it's it's a company that
is unlike many others because we really arepassionate about blurring the lines and having
kind of this Venn diagram of individuals andtheir specialties and their vantage points and
and how they see the built environment.
So it's not it's not that there's any degreeyou can go get for waterfront architecture,
(07:06):
waterfront infrastructure, but ours is acompany that's focused on the the types of
programmatic projects that we get.
So we get, you know, marina projects.
We get port projects, ferry terminals, ferrylandings, park facilities on the water,
floating projects.
So if you think of it, the floating cities thatare very futuristic and looking like, those are
things that we work on.
We're in the process of writing the firstwaterfront code for New York City.
(07:29):
So there is a lot of opportunity, I think, inthis space, particularly at this moment in time
where climate adaptation is a, you know,trending theme in in much of our work.
And you think about the waterfront as perhapsthe most vulnerable typology that there is
where sea levels rising, there's floodingconcerns and considerations.
And so we're whether formally trained or on thejob trained, we're all trained to look at, you
(07:50):
know, what are the vulnerabilities?
How do we protect against them in our day today working on the waterfront?
So that translates very seamlessly to evenupland typologies where maybe it's a landlocked
site, but there are flooding concerns rightnow, especially with the climate changing.
So where did the blend of, you know, beingmission driven, right, like, there's a mission
driven component to this, as well as as aentrepreneur, it's very blue ocean.
(08:14):
Right?
Like, you don't have you you you're not you'rejust not lines and lines of waterfront
architects.
So where does that blend kinda meet?
So I think for for us, I saw it as anopportunity.
Certainly having worked for larger firms, thethe 2 firms I worked at before launching, or 2
of the the firms that I worked at beforelaunching for most of my career, were firms
(08:38):
that were often the prime on a contract, andwe're always highly hiring small, whether
they're women owned or minority owned, veteranowned businesses.
And I really saw an opportunity as the prime inthe space, especially for specialized areas of
focus to offer these services because we werein a position as a prime looking to satisfy
oftentimes, you can imagine much of our work isgovernment run, looking to satisfy criteria for
(09:01):
women owned or veteran owned or minority ownedand not finding the types of contractors and
the type of consultants that we needed.
And so we saw very early on before I launched,there was an opportunity in this space to be
specialized and to offer these services onthese types of contracts.
And so sure enough, launched and didn't reallyhave to have I mean, we hired our first couple
(09:24):
clients on a retainer basis.
But beyond that, we got certified as a womanowned business and kinda hit the ground running
with the opportunities that were available tous.
And I would say the entrepreneurial side, yes,yes, we're mission driven, but the
entrepreneurial side is identifying theopportunity and believing in the need for it.
And we have since launched kind of partnercompanies and and businesses that veteran owned
(09:45):
and minority owned that offer complimentaryservices.
And we can offer, you know, construction costestimating and scheduling and sequencing, which
for for any project, it is a lot.
But for this for the waterfront is veryspecific and nuanced to what is needed on the
waterfront.
What types of equipment, how to work in thetide cycles, what is allowed by environmental
and regulatory agencies.
(10:06):
So there's a lot of restrictions andconstraints that come with working on the
waterfront.
Any way you slice it, whether in design or inconstruction or in operations and maintenance.
And so we saw a way to offer services throughthrough different avenues, but all again
related to the waterfront in that area whereland meets water and man made meets nature and,
(10:27):
kind of so on.
Did you think starting the company that youwould be writing code for the largest city in
the in the country?
Is did you did you is that part of the visionwhen you
were It wasn't the first
vision boarding this thing?
Certainly certainly knew there was a needbecause we had experienced it as a need, kind
of the way New York City operates or hasoperated historically is that the waterfront
(10:50):
doesn't go to department of building to get abuilding permit.
It goes through department of small businessservices just the way that the waterfront is
managed, maintained, and and operated in NewYork City historically.
And what the agency was trying to do for a verylong time was apply the building code to
waterfront typologies, which in many ways justdoesn't work.
(11:10):
And it's it's not black and white as code issupposed to be.
And so it was kind of a constant battle and anunpredictable process trying to get that last
stage permit, from the the equipment of the,you know, the building department.
And so it was a it was a no need.
And it was a a larger project.
We're a sub consultant on the team, but we arespecializing in the waterfront or, excuse me,
(11:32):
specializing on the architectural chapters ofthe waterfront code.
So it wasn't the first thought, but happy to bea part of it and happy to, kinda get this
experience under our belt.
So, you know, since you're doing all this workfor, really, the city, is this something that
can be learned at school, or is this somethingthat can only be learned at the job,
essentially through experience?
(11:53):
I think over time, definitely can be learned,through an academic setting in school.
I think a lot about how professions haveevolved.
I serve on the National Council forArchitecture Registration Boards, the the
licensing body for architecture architectsnationally that facilitate licensure with each
of the states.
And we parallel often to the engineeringindustry and how their licensure has evolved
(12:17):
over time.
And you think historically kind of when it was,you know, maybe 5 different disciplines of
engineering.
There was civil and there was electrical andthere was mechanical and kind of how many
fields of engineering have then spawned.
And now there's you know, under civil, youcould say there is environmental and all of
these marine disciplines, marine and coastal.
And we have a professional engineer diver thatgoes underwater and inspect structures.
(12:39):
And there are all these specialties that haveevolved out of engineering and the professional
engineers.
Architecture doesn't have that.
There's just kind of one general architecturelicense.
And so I think in terms of specialization, thefield itself hasn't quite primed for
specialization.
Not to say that there isn't a need and thereisn't a benefit to the public by doing that,
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but I think I'm kind of operating on theperiphery and pun intended on the edge of what
architecture is.
And that's something that certainly there'smore opportunity for because if you look at
kind of these extreme situations, like I said,on the waterfront, very vulnerable.
There's a lot of lessons to be learned that canthen be applied to other sites that aren't
waterfront sites, but that ability to work verycomfortably with water, certainly translates
(13:23):
to, you know, flood prone areas and what floodmitigation measures can be installed on an
upland site or a landlocked site.
So I I do believe there's a lot of benefit, butto answer your original question, is there a
program that you can go get, you know,specialized in waterfront architecture?
No.
I believe there are other specialties thatmaybe are a little bit further advanced where
there are, you know, like health carespecialization courses or masters or
(13:44):
certification programs that one can go through.
But as far as, you know, architecture and andthe climate and waterfront, no.
So are you having to then train all yourpeople?
So we do train.
Many come, like I said, with some awarenessaround the environment, either, a dual degree
or, you know, they might have been on oneproject that they really love for specific
(14:05):
reasons and that passion kind of sparks andaligns with what we're doing.
And so training on the job, it's you know, wehope everyone's learning on every job, but it
comes very naturally to us.
And and many of the many of the people thatwe've attracted are people who we've worked
with on past jobs that are waterfront sitesthat have an awareness around what it means to
work on the waterfront.
So for anyone that is trying to specialize, thefirst client is usually the hardest.
(14:31):
And then it goes from there.
Was getting the 1st client the hardest thingfor you or was it something else?
So the first client was not hard for us becausewe had good working relations and we weren't we
had, you know, non solicitations on competeswith our former employers that we were
honoring, in setting up.
And and in truth, we weren't competing becausewe were not offering engineering architecture
services from day 1.
(14:52):
And so we were able to start by offering ownersrep services for, construction management and
for other things that complement what we do andevolved into architecture and engineering on
the waterfront.
But we were able to do that in a way that gaveus kind of runway to to grow our team and to,
find the right opportunities where we couldspecialize and continue to to grow and evolve.
(15:14):
I think probably one of the harder things was abreak point of as a principal, as a productive
principal, you know, doing the work ourselvesversus, yeah, training the people and
offloading that.
A couple years in, I realized I I didn't haveto renew my AutoCAD license.
I didn't have to do certain things in thosemilestones that I think are important because,
(15:38):
yes, I'm an architect, but I'm I'm not in CAD.
I'm never drafting.
I'm not doing certain things.
I'm kind of in a different position where I'mmanaging people that, yes, now we have a a more
vertical structure.
But it took some concerted steps and efforts toget away from, I'll just do it.
It's easier for me.
It's quicker for me as a as a business leaderto grow in that direction.
Do you so, do you still provide input for bigprojects?
(16:05):
Or you do?
Yes.
Absolutely.
And but it's it's at what intervals I'minvolved.
Again, not doing necessarily the productive dayto day and the minutes and the agendas, but I
am weighing in on the the bigger decisions andthe the broad brush strokes of, you know, the
direction of projects.
Can you give some examples of, like I imaginethat letting go had to be kinda hard.
(16:28):
Is that true?
Let me let me start with that.
Yes.
It is.
And it's especially hard when things don't gothe way that, you know, I would have done them.
But that's that's part of growth and that'spart of other people learning also is you learn
by failing and that's just the truth and youlearn a lot better than doing the right thing
is doing the wrong thing and learning from it.
(16:48):
And so that is a kind of way that we operate aswe give people the runway and the opportunity
in the room to fail and to make the decisionsand to to go on their instinct, not in a
uncoordinated and, what's the word,uncontrollable way.
I mean, we're we're careful about it, but we wehave regular check ins.
We're giving people room to make the decisionsthough and not micromanaging.
(17:12):
Kind of wanted to stay far away frommicromanaging.
So can you give us some examples of where, youknow, you're letting go.
It didn't work or it's not going exactly theway you imagine, but it still worked well.
And also counter to that, because I thinkthat's the easier example, is where it didn't
(17:34):
work so well.
And how did you manage through that?
Sure.
So, an example of it going well.
So I, early on in the company, started a kindof a a template of a flood resiliency report
and a flood emergency action plan and and kindof put into template form, you know, for one
(17:54):
specific project initially and then built on itand was expecting these templates to be kind of
plug and play.
Yes.
Specific to different projects, differentsites, different constraints, different risks,
but thought it would be relatively quick to getthese kind of updated and, you know, follow-up
process and and kind of bang them out for formultiple projects.
(18:17):
And it was, but one of the things I found is wehave, a lot of really great people on our team,
and you can go down the rabbit hole and you cankind of had to find the right threshold for
where to cut off and the level of detail, thelevel of information, the amount of research,
that really, you know, constitutes duediligence.
And so that was something where the report hasbeen refined time over time, and it's it's in a
(18:41):
good place now, but it's it's getting a comfortwith what amount of time is too much and what
amount of time is not enough and how are we,you know, maintaining responsible control but
not blowing a budget on a on a given projectthat's unnecessary.
And so that has happened with, I I think, someof these reports, a time where it hasn't gone
(19:01):
well.
Let me think.
So early on, we, you know, we wear many hats,especially architects.
We can do everything.
Well, we can do everything, and it can charge alot to do everything.
And so early on, we figured out that some ofthe the individuals we had, you know, different
different rates to different billable rates,just wasn't efficient to have them, whether
it's drafting or modeling or whatever it was.
(19:23):
And so figuring out and, maybe a little late onsome projects, but figuring out at what
threshold we need to outsource some of thatwork, took some time.
And so I think it's it's hard, especially inearly stages of a company.
You value people's time.
You value what you're paying them.
Sometimes you can discount what you valueyourself in your own time.
And so something that I think, alright, ittakes me 10 minutes just to manipulate and cut
(19:46):
it and get it back out.
Can't scale that for everyone in the company.
And there is a threshold where that QAQC andthe markups and the red lines and the revision
cycles need to be documented, and it starts totake longer.
But there's also a threshold in which we canoutsource a lot of that and keep in house the
higher decision making abilities, but outsourcea lot of the kind of mechanical tasks.
(20:08):
So as you're continuing to scale, really, theonly way to be able to scale is to continue
letting things go.
How do you hold people accountable to thethings that you let go?
So we have regular check ins.
We have a clear kind of organization structureand hierarchy, and we have regular check ins.
(20:29):
Everyone on the team has a check-in, not withevery principal or with every, executive, but
we do have regular check ins where, it is clearwhat's you know, what are the hot items, what
are the long lead items.
And there's a a natural tracking that occurswith those.
There's, you know, minutes that are taken.
And when things start to go awry, we doimplement performance improvement plans.
(20:52):
And so that's something where, alright, youmiss something, it happens, or it wasn't
communicated that something slipped in priorityor perceived to have slipped in priority and
something slipped through the cracks or ithappens once, happens twice.
You get kind of verbal warning what happenedhere.
Let's talk about it.
Continues to happen.
We start to identify a pattern, and then we'reputting into place a performance improvement
plan because it's not, it's not the goal forthe person to fail, but it's also important to
(21:15):
understand, you know, why is this happening?
Is it a developmental action plan that needs togo into place, or is it something that's, you
know, reflected on us that we're not givingthem the tools they need to succeed and just to
get to the bottom of it and and work in theright direction so that the issue is resolved
and also the individual is developed.
I know I'm about to open up a can of worms withwhat you said.
(21:36):
So I'm gonna ask for your opinion, on do PIPswork?
They can.
They don't always.
Sometimes it's a flag that and one of thethings we say is hire slow, fire fast.
So they don't always work.
And sometimes if it's we like to have patience.
We like to understand different circumstancesand accentuating circumstances in particular,
(21:57):
but they don't always work.
But we do exercise due diligence and documentthroughout.
So breaking obviously any type ofconfidentiality.
What do you see, what do you see in terms ofthe PIP?
Why it works and then why it doesn't work?
Let's start with the why it works.
(22:18):
So times where we've seen it work and thereasons why I think it has worked is because
the the message is very clear.
It's measurable.
It's actionable.
We can we can get through, kind of step by stepunderstanding what the goal is and how to
achieve it.
And so when things start to become missed, it'ssometimes it's a reflection on management.
(22:40):
Sometimes it's the managers not being clear inwhat's being asked or giving mixed signals,
mixed communication.
So sometimes it's on us.
But sometimes when it's it's not, when itdoesn't work, it's the employee is it's just
not resonating what the priority is or what thewhat the expectation is, what the caliber, what
the quality, what the quantity, whatever it isthat we're trying to measure, they're not
(23:01):
hitting that mark and they're notcommunicating.
And that can be a thing too where we havepeople who are, you know, experts in different
softwares, and I'm not an expert in some ofthese softwares.
So I don't know how long something will take.
And I'm not I'm I'm trusting everyone to beresponsible.
And we do have a culture of trust in our team,which cannot be taken advantage of.
Absolutely.
But we are highly communicative around what theexpectations are, what the goals are.
(23:24):
And if we need to screen share and shadow andwatch and understand what the production is on
something, we can do that.
Last question on this on this thread.
Excuse me.
On this thread cause I just find this superfascinating.
If you don't know.
Okay.
Right.
You're not expertise on the software orwhatever.
What is your how do you gauge?
(23:44):
Right.
Then what is?
Because if you don't have, let's say, directexperience with it, then how do you figure that
out so that you have age or number or metric?
Like, how do you then figure that out if youdon't have direct experience with it?
So we have kind of a hierarchy and a seniorlevel of leadership that maybe doesn't have
(24:04):
direct experience in the latest software, butthey know enough and they've practiced long
enough in the industry that they have someawareness around it.
And so even if it's something that it might notbe in house, it might be something that we send
a a surveyor out to collect some information.
We know generally enough about what needs to bedone that even when we have a sub consultant
give us a number, we'll say, wait.
(24:25):
This is, you know, astronomically more than wethought.
What's going on here?
This is what we actually need and kind of talkthrough the mechanics of the step by step.
What is needed to achieve this?
And sometimes there are things that we justdon't know and they're justifiable, and other
time, this kind of calling BS on something.
You seem very comfortable as as a CEO.
Right?
You seem you seem very much like you love it,which becomes struggling sometimes when you
(24:46):
have somebody that is, an architect or is anengineer or is in construction, and they're
like, I can just do it better, and then they gooff to go do their own thing and then realize,
shit.
Like, there's a lot more things that areinvolved here than just doing a great job.
Right?
So do you find that you just really enjoy thatside maybe more than the architect engineering
(25:07):
side?
I will say I've I've worked in some maybe it'sout of my experience, and I've had poor
experiences where I didn't feel like I wastrusted or I didn't feel like I was given room
to achieve my potential or whatever it wasthat, again, I I'm very open.
My business partner is open.
The principles are open to having conversationand and kind of walking through things together
(25:31):
that our assumptions might be wrong, but we'revery transparent in our culture.
We're very open about, you know, when things gowell and when things don't go well.
And we don't penalize when things don't gowell.
It's alright, let's learn from it as a team.
We're not pointing the finger.
We're figuring out a solution, and then we'regoing back and, you know, what were the lessons
learned?
And so it is, I think, a reflection of theculture.
But me, personally, I do greatly enjoydeveloping our team.
(25:55):
No.
But it's very obvious based on your youranswers.
They're very, yeah, they're just they're verysmart.
How do you how do you come to agreements ondisagreements?
Right?
So you said, do you have other principles?
Like, I assume that everybody has some form ofsay in in some way or another.
So how do how do how do you get to thedecisions when maybe the two sides are not
seeing eye to eye?
(26:15):
So I'm trying to think of real disagreementswe've had at senior levels, and there there
aren't many.
I would say my my business partner and I areare fairly well aligned, and we, yeah, we have
different opinions on things.
Sometimes we'll talk them through, and andsometimes it's, I think, like in a marriage,
you kinda pick your battles of, you know,what's really important and why.
I mean, always a culture of respect, and wedon't have to agree on things.
(26:35):
But sometimes we'll bring in other expertiseoutside expertise, whether it's, you know,
another person internal to the company orsomeone outside of the company, whether it's
outside counsel or an accountant or whateverthe issue is, or if it's, you know, a design
detail that we just don't agree on and hisexperience was in the field doing one thing and
my experience was in the field doing anotherthing, we'll call our networks.
(26:57):
We'll say, hey.
We're running into this issue or kind ofthinking these two things.
What do you think?
And just get that advice in house.
Got it.
So how, how helpful is that third party,whether it internally or externally that you've
seen?
It's just seeing somebody else's point of viewthat when you're you're trying to come to
conclusion, obviously, having a consultant comein, the the value I've said this tons of time.
(27:22):
The value a consultant brings is they're not inthe business.
Right?
So, like, they're looking at it veryobjectively.
Like, they're just saying, like, this is how itworks.
Like, this is how the pieces fit compared to,like, well, Bob does this, and Judy does this,
and there's this whole dynamic of thing.
And, like, it's like all that's thrown awaybecause, like, they have no concept of it.
So where do you you know, how often do you seethe value of bringing that 3rd party in?
(27:45):
Pretty often.
And it's not always that we're we're paying,you know, an outside consultant for the
service.
Sometimes it's just it's our network.
It's our resources, people who we worked in thepast, people who we respect in the industry.
So it's it's not always that we're paying forit, but I would say more often than not, when
we go outside to get an opinion or advice onsomething, it is helpful even if it's alright.
(28:06):
Now we both changed our mind.
We're definitely not doing it or whateverwhatever it is.
Sometimes it's hearing it back from an outsideparty that allows us to recalibrate or reframe.
No.
Totally.
That makes perfect sense.
So then have you built out, processes for notjust obviously, like, this is our process to
use AutoCAD or this is our process for that,but, like, have you built out processes for
(28:27):
business items?
Something inside business.
Like, this is how we make decisions.
This is, like, when we look at cash flow, welook at our p and l.
Like, this is how we do that.
Like, what does that look like?
And, obviously, since the beginning to today,how has that changed?
So we we have built out some.
Certainly, we have more on our list that wewould like to build out and that I think is
natural as as we scale.
(28:48):
But it, you know, it started with 2 people and4 people, 8 people kind of doubling every year.
We're at 20 people and and we've we've seensome fissures.
We've seen some some cracks where, alright, wewe scaled a little too fast or we need to roll
this back or we need to, you know, someoneneeds to QC this every day.
It needs to be the same person looking atmaking sure it's standardized, whatever it is.
And so we've some of that we've done and someof it's, you know, business practices and, you
(29:11):
know, invoicing cycles and things like that.
Others are, you know, design development, QA,QC processes, and formatting and standards and
controls and and things like that that we havedeveloped.
We certainly have more to go and that I thinkthat comes with that letting go phase of, I
know how I do it and how it looks good.
I know how it's gonna go out.
(29:31):
I trust that I'm doing it.
I'll have someone else look at it, but it's,you know, a lot of consistency in what one
person is producing.
And then, I guess, as you scale, thoseassumptions that you're making aren't
translated at every level.
And so then you have to kinda go in and andwhether you're codifying them or standardizing
them or whatever it is, we start to see wherethere are inconsistencies or something goes out
(29:52):
and who looked at this.
And it's you know, we have these reality checksthat kinda bring us back to, alright, this
needs to be a priority this year.
We're standardizing this, or we're making thisinto a process, or this is a procedure for
that, whatever it is.
How does software play a part in yourorganization?
There's a lot of everyone's using some versionof AutoCAD, Revit, etcetera.
But then there are, let's say, Enscape orthere's a lot of other engineering slash
(30:19):
architectural software that surrounds the majorthe major platforms, but I love what they are.
So, how much does software play a part in termsof making you more efficient or better than,
let's say, another company that, let's say,would compete for the same business?
So to answer literally about the software, Ithink, certainly, it's a part of it.
(30:42):
I think it's more philosophy around thesoftware, and we are firmly of the belief.
And again, this some of this comes out of myexperience that I felt like I got out of
school.
I had training in all the latest softwares, andthen I wasn't allowed to get licenses for any
of it.
And I kind of had to degrade my work productionto match whatever the company would support in
terms of licensing software and felt like thatwas, you know, not the direction that was I
(31:05):
understood it from a business decision andprocesses and procedures.
But for us, we we are a young company.
We're able to be more agile.
We are dynamic.
We are trusting of our individuals.
And so we've trusted in our individuals to tellus, alright.
This is software.
It's gonna make me more productive in this way.
I don't know the software.
I don't know how to use it, but we'll take theleap.
We'll have a pilot project.
(31:26):
We'll demo it.
We'll see if it's worthwhile to train otherindividuals on it.
And we've I mean, even as simple as kind ofwhat we look at documents in, we have a divide
in our company.
We have the architects and the planners thatswear by and will only use Adobe products and
for with good reason, and I'm in that camp.
We also have the engineers who will only useBluebeam to do markups.
(31:47):
And so we have a divide even internally in thecompany, and it works to kind of give people
the option.
And that may come to a breaking point where weneed to just standardize 1.
But so far, how we're operating, it works, andit's kind of the preference of the individual
and what they are most proficient at and mostproductive in.
And so that's something that we kind of take ona case by case, but we'll, you know, make the
(32:08):
case for it and go.
You mentioned, growth or, you know, scaleearlier and how, like, you when you it happens
too fast when you double up and double up anddouble up, it it can put the strain on you
know, show the cracks.
Where are some of those things that you haveseen just historically?
Obviously, you got from 2 to 4 to 8 to, youknow, 20 at this point.
(32:29):
You know, what were some of those stories of,like, you know, we've grown too fast?
Like, people think growth's great.
Love growth.
Let's keep growing.
Grow, grow, grow.
But in reality, there are limitations to that,unless you have a stockpile of money sitting
somewhere that you can just pour on it.
Yeah.
No.
We I I think one of the more important thingsthat we do and that has helped us in that arena
(32:52):
is not not only looking kind of top down atwhat our potential is, but but having annually,
we have a meeting where we're very transparentwith all of our information, whether we set our
goals together, where we stacked up againstlast year's goals, What the priority kind of
side projects are?
Target areas, industry, market growth, thingswill will kind of go through that every very
(33:13):
much feels like everyone is an owner.
Everyone's giving their their perspective.
And the 1 year we did that we do it every year,but 1 year we had done it, and we had an
opportunity.
It was it was going into 2020.
And we had the opportunity to go from I thinkwe were 4 people at the start of 2020 to 8.
And it was like an overnight opportunity wherewe had the hires identified and we floated it
(33:35):
to the team that this isn't ownership.
We my partner and I, we were ready to go.
We had kind of pedal to the metal.
We had interviewed.
We were ready to extend the offers.
And, I mean, in hindsight, thank thank goodnesswe didn't do this because 2020 hit.
A lot of things came to a halt.
Whole another podcast on how to navigate that.
But but we opened up to our company and said,this is what we're thinking of doing.
(33:56):
What do you guys think?
And it was no.
We need to get our systems in order.
We have these things if we do that.
We how are we gonna it it was a lot ofquestions that we realized.
Okay.
The assumptions that we're making aren'ttranslating to every level, and we need to
translate those before we grow because it willonly become harder.
(34:17):
And we didn't.
We slowed our growth, and we grew deliberatelyin the areas that we we wanted to.
And we kind of have a direction every year, 1or 2 directions that we hire target people in
to round out our business services.
And that was a really good time where wedidn't.
We continued to grow slowly, thought into whatdirections and how to control that growth.
(34:40):
So does that mean does that mean that you know,with controlled so what you're I'm gonna use
your words here.
So with controlled growth, because I thinkevery entrepreneur is pedal to the metal.
I think that's just in their DNA.
So how do you how do you get was it acompromise?
(35:02):
Was it a, was it a sacrifice to slow downgrowth?
Tell me tell me about that.
So there's always a trade off, and and it itmight have been a completely different outcome
or retrospect if, you know, pandemic didn'thappen and we we lost an opportunity, but it
was it was an opportunity to grow in a slightlydifferent direction than where we have ended up
(35:24):
growing.
And it wasn't a compromise.
It was this is a contract we can either take itor leave it, and put 4 people on the job site
and grow that way.
But it wasn't it wasn't truly aligned to thevision of of of how we've ended up growing, the
direction we ended up growing in.
And that gave us the opportunity.
(35:45):
Yes.
It was a trade off.
It wasn't doubling our revenue in 1 year.
It was a decision to focus in differentbusiness areas and grow more slowly in those
areas while taking the the time to refine and Iwouldn't use the term perfect, but refine some
of our dealings and our processes or proceduresor standards.
(36:05):
K.
Justin, I think you wanted to you wanted to asksomething.
Yeah.
I, obviously, going to the team.
Right?
Having this, hey.
Like, this is the vision for the year.
This is that are there checkpoints during theyear that you're also saying, like, hey.
Q one's over.
Q two's over halfway through the year.
This is where we're standing.
Like, hey.
We've already done these great things, or, hey.
(36:26):
We're behind here.
Like, is that part of this process when you're,you know, being candid with the team that way?
So we do generally every year in February, wedo kind of self evaluations and employee
reviews and those and and in that process, wealso get feedback on the company.
What's been good?
What hasn't been good?
Where do we need to improve?
What are competitors doing?
What's the word on the street?
We kind of get a lot of information back.
(36:48):
And then we synthesize that into our we call itthe state of the onion where we peel back the
layers, but we we bake it into a meeting thatwe usually have around Pi Day, March 14th.
Mhmm.
And we eat pie during our meeting.
We, we go through and we kind of we're verytransparent with, you know, what the financial
goals were, what we what we projected, what wehit.
(37:09):
And that happens once a year.
And we go through everything from, you know,financials and strategy and lessons learned and
hiring and culture and kind of as much as wecan cover in the day, we do.
And it's very kind of Socratic as we have a anagenda that we follow.
We have a presentation that's prepared, but alot of it is just to spark and have insight and
(37:29):
conversation that we, you know, we gather andand then debrief on later as as principals.
The principals then meet biannually in person,but quarterly to get the updates on.
Alright.
We set this goal.
What are we tracking against that goal?
Just more of the kind of factual informationbased on goals and any any specific issues that
(37:52):
are rising or any big strategic discussionsthat need to occur.
The principals are meeting quarterly and andreally a little bit deeper semiannually.
Got it.
Okay.
When you were talking about feedback, I'mcurious.
Does the feedback from employees, do they alsogive feedback on their, essentially, their
(38:13):
direct, their direct managers, or is it aboutthe company overall?
All of the above.
And some of that we allow to be, like, 3 60feedback that isn't direct you know, never
comfortable giving a review directly to theperson you're reviewing kind of thing.
So some of it, you know, some of it is face toface, some of it is 360 feedback, and some of
it on the company, we do often via Mentimeterwhere we'll get information.
(38:37):
It's kind of randomized, but it's in real time,and there is a a non anonymity to it.
And so we can say, you know, how would youdescribe our culture in one word?
Those kinds of questions that we can start toget a cloud word cloud together.
And then they're also, you know, what was yourhighlight of year?
And some of those are more telling depending onthe individual, but what is the low point?
(38:58):
What do we need to work on?
We we kind of go through weaknesses, strengths,opportunities, threats, and and crowdsource
that information more anonymously.
How would you describe the culture in one word,Dina?
Respectful.
K.
How it's obviously you're doing all this, soculture is important.
Right?
You wanna have you wanna have a good culture.
Going from, you know, going from a big entityinto your own business, what were some of those
(39:23):
thoughts that, you know, you there was I'm surethere were things, and not to we're not
badmouthing in somebody else's culture, but,like, sure there were things that you wanted to
be different.
Like, you wanted to say, this culture needs tolook this way and and be thought of this way,
and we need to be intentional.
Right?
Be intentional with it.
What did that look like, you know, when it was2 of you?
(39:43):
And now what does that maybe look maybedifferent, maybe exactly the same today when
it's 20?
Certainly certainly just that to beintentional, to be deliberate, to be
thoughtful, to be respectful, and to be I thinkone of the things about the architecture
engineering construction industry as a whole isthat they're the cultures and the businesses
(40:03):
themselves often operate as kind of theseantiquated monster machines, very slowly, slow
to change, slow to adapt technology.
We knew we wanted to be and we knew the theindustry deserves to be more nimble, more
agile, more flexible.
And so those things are also embodied in ourculture.
So we are not so rigid that this is what wesay, and it's letter of the law, and we're
(40:25):
never gonna change on it.
No.
Give us an argument to change on it.
We will.
Like, we'll we'll talk through it and challengeour opinion.
We don't want to be the smartest people.
We want to hire the smartest people.
So we'll have a discussion about it.
You know, when you're having those discussions,there's the it requires a certain level of
trust to be able to have honest conversations.
And in order to build that trust, it takes timeto be able to trust that there isn't, let's
(40:46):
say, lash back from the feedback or fromconstructive feedback from happening.
How are you building trust or how are your sortof leaders building trust within the company?
And how are you accelerating that timeline sothat it doesn't take years to build that trust?
It takes a lot less.
Yeah.
I think some of that is born out of how how wegrew and we grew very organically.
(41:09):
We didn't put up job postings and have a bunchof resumes to filter through.
Much of our growth was through relationshipsthat we had, whether working alongside, working
under, working for so my business partner andI, he hired me at one of my companies.
And when I left, he said, if I ever leave,we're gonna do something.
We're gonna go out on our own.
I said, yeah.
Right.
You he was my boss at the time.
10 years my senior.
I said, alright.
(41:29):
Whatever.
And I left.
And sure enough, a couple of years later, I wasready.
He was ready.
We launched.
And many of our first hires also were whetheror not direct working relationships that we had
working in the same company.
We might have worked on a job together oppositeeach other, might have been a client, might
have been a referral of someone that we workedwith.
But a lot of the early growth, I I think veryfew of our of our employees came as a as a
(41:55):
blank slate, kind of through a job, through ana resume application, maybe 1 or 2.
But much of that, I think, that trust, some ofthat was already built in because we weren't an
employer when we had formed the relationship.
We knew how each other operated.
We knew each other's values.
We knew the quality of each other's work.
So a lot of that was baked in early on to ourgrowth.
And once you have that momentum and you havethose relationships, it's kind of a magnetism
(42:18):
because the more people we hire, the the,larger our network becomes to continue to grow.
Definitely gave some very interesting answers.
Gave give a lot to what I can tell from ourconversation is that it there's a lot of
intentionality in how you're organizing.
Not to say that there were no failures, but Ithink you pivoted from the just from what I can
(42:40):
hear, you pivoted from the failures and thencontinued on, which is sign of any great
entrepreneur to be able to move on.
So as you're growing, as you're scaling, how doyou bring that intentionality?
Because you can't do it just from one person.
Right?
You might you might be pointing the North Star,but how do you grow that intentionality to
other people within your organization?
So I think that we are mission driven.
(43:03):
Some of that is a little bit on autopilotbecause we're we're all heading in the same
direction.
Sometimes we'll start to stray.
Sometimes there'll be a little bit of atangent.
We'll we'll rein them in or they'll rein usout, whatever it is.
But I I think because of the work that we doand the the passion behind the work, the the
the realized value of what that work is, it'sit's attracted a caliber of talent and the type
(43:27):
of talent that we have been fortunate in whoour team is and who who our team has become.
And we're also not putting a ceiling on anyone.
And that, again, I think maybe from myexperience, from my business partner's
experience, felt like a ceiling was put on usunnecessarily or unjustly.
And maybe because of, you know, the systems andthe the hierarchy and some of the antiquated
(43:50):
companies out there, larger scale multinationalcompanies that need x to to go there, need y to
do this.
And, again, understanding from a businessperspective why those checks and balances are
necessary, but also understanding the trade offfor some of those.
Whereas we can be much more agile.
We can be much more nimble.
We can hire in a field engineer that we see thepotential in and give him give him the the
(44:14):
slack to see, you know, where does he take it?
And he's knocking it out of the park in year 4,and no reason not to give him more
responsibility, not to give him more.
And, yes, there may be moments which are risky,but measuring that risk, weighing that risk,
managing that risk transparently, proactively,regularly has been what helps us.
(44:34):
And so yes, we have a north star, some start togo awry but we're largely marching in the same
direction or we're talking about the directionwe're marching in, and we're prioritizing
jointly if we have limited resources wherethose resources are deployed.
So, obviously, you've you've mentioned the theold school methodology, antiquated, you know,
(44:56):
life that is maybe exists in the the AE spaceand certainly the AEC space for sure.
What what's the vision you have?
Like, when when you look at 3 years, 5 yearsdeeper, you know, down the road, where's
Indigo?
And, like, what is being done that is sodifferent than what has been done in the, you
know, the past 100 years?
So I think some of that some of that certainlyisn't in the type of projects that we work on,
(45:20):
and and that it is a niche specialty area andthat we have the opportunity to develop
responsibly in a very vulnerable area.
And not every client is willing to do that.
We still get the run of the mill client thatjust wants to flip a property, and they don't
care what the, you know, highest and best valueor the, you know, best use of resources is.
And that's hard, but it's also it's a businesswhere we offer business services, and we'll,
(45:42):
you know, execute on on what the client ispaying us to do.
But there are also other clients that we have alittle bit more latitude to set more ambitious
goals for a project than just, you know, whatthe the 20 year life cycle or the 40 year life
cycle is.
There there are other benefits that can comeout of the built environment other than, you
know, restoring what was previously there andfailed?
(46:03):
And so that, I think, again, is terms ofmission driven, attracts a certain caliber of
talent, but also gives us opportunity tocontinue exploring.
You know, materiality is changing so rapidly.
Technologies are changing so rapidly.
We have a very diversified work staff that hasdifferent expertise within the team, all
complementary and all focused around thewaterfront.
(46:24):
And so we continue developing depth in ourvertical, while also kind of expanding the
horizon of what we offer.
And so I think we'll continue to do that.
It's a really exciting moment in time whereclimate adaptation is suddenly more valued than
it was a decade ago and kind of look at howsustainability evolved as a theme or as a
(46:46):
trend, how resiliency evolved as a theme or asa trend, understanding what climate adaptation
work means in the built environment.
I think we're kind of at the front of at leastthe the newer vocabulary on on what these
things are and how to implement them.
What about the technology side?
Where do you see and this might be more of theindustry.
Like, what do you see changing?
(47:07):
Right?
So, obviously, AI, huge big deal.
Like, how big of an impact do you see thathaving, on Indigo, but then also just the
space?
Tremendous amount.
And I and it's I think it'll be dampened orslowed by some of the regulatory processes that
we have in place, but, certainly there'sopportunity to 3 d print, biomimic biomimicry
(47:32):
and spaces that can operate and sustain as anatural environment would.
But they can be constructed, they can be manmade.
So we can match we can vary, you know, thetechnological advances with material advances
and be on the fore of that as a, not as atrend, but as a kind of a staple of how we
design in the future.
(47:53):
And then then I think there's also a tremendousamount of opportunity, not only in the the
techno technological kind of how we how webuild, but also how we're collecting data back
and how that data is informing our designprocess.
And so whether it's, you know, mapping 3 dspaces underwater or flying a drone to get, you
know, what that mapping is, that's a lot moretangible now than it was a decade ago just with
(48:18):
material advances, but also the investments.
So, yes, we have professional engineer divers,but they can't get into every nook and cranny
and every space under a, you know, confinedspace in the underwater.
And so we can have a underwater drone that wefly to understand more and map it and then make
a more detailed and thoughtful decision earlieron in the process as to how we design a
(48:39):
solution for that space.
That's to me, all I think of is, like, the theunbelievable technology aspect of, like, yeah,
we just take our drone, we throw it in theharbor, and then, you know, we just just go map
out all of the underground, you know,underwater, environment.
This is just to me is
Yeah.
We're we're short putting a lot of assumptionsthat used to take place in the process that,
(49:00):
alright, if it's this, we're going to do that,or we're going to wait and see what it is when
we go down and start to deconstruct.
Well, we don't need to do that anymore.
We can, before we start designing, go and, youknow, assess what the reality is and why it got
to be that way.
And assumptions are expensive if they're wrong.
Yes.
Justin, I feel like we had a great conversationtoday.
(49:21):
Yeah.
No.
For sure.
We have one last question, though, for you,Dina.
So if you could go back 20 years, what wouldyou tell yourself?
What advice would you give yourself?
I don't know.
Maybe start earlier.
Start on my own entrepreneur as in my own on myown journey sooner.
Yeah.
Well, if you were so you said 18.
Right?
(49:41):
Is that when the firm got started?
17.
18.
2018.
2018.
So if you started even in 2010, right, so theadditional 8 years, where where would you guys
be?
I don't know that we would be in the same placeat all.
I don't think we would.
I mean, not not even in, you know, 10 years, 10more years on this trajectory or 6 more years
(50:01):
on this trajectory.
I think we are responsive to opportunities.
And I I mentioned kind of climate adaptationtrending, and it kind of took a a light bulb
moment when someone was presenting to me of allthese it was a marine engineer presenting to me
all these opportunities within the space.
And I thought, well, yeah, those areopportunities, and that's our team is doing
this.
Our team is doing that.
Our do we're we're the experts in this space.
(50:23):
Why aren't we marketing ourselves as such?
And it took kind of, reframing it, hearing itfrom from an outside perspective.
And and I think if we would have startedwhatever in 2010, 8 years earlier, we would
have been responding to differentconversations, different times, different
trends, different funding opportunities, interms of, you know, government funded projects.
We we do have a fairly balanced portfolio onsome of our especially our early work came out
(50:46):
of private opportunities.
And so it probably would have been, you know,responding to what the opportunities were as
much as continuing to pursue the passions thatwe have, which are around waterfront or nature
meets man made.
Yeah.
Alright.
No.
That's a good start earlier.
Right?
That was the the saying is, when's the besttime to plant a tree?
20 years ago, 2nd best time today.
So, no, it makes tons of sense.
(51:07):
This has been great.
This has been amazing.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell thepeople, before we say our goodbyes?
Maybe just something from from my career that II think helped me launch and and helped form
the direction that we've that that we've comeand where we're going is to take note of the
hardships, take note of the challenges, takenote of the obstacles.
Because I feel like those are the the biggestlearning moments that can shape where the
(51:31):
opportunities are, and that's what we found.
Good advice.
Awesome.
We'll throw all your, show notes or all thesocial links in the show notes.
Is there, a way for people to get a hold of youif they wanna connect with you?
Yeah.
I mean, I'm I'm active on LinkedIn.
I'm active on some of the social medias,Instagram, and, of course, through our website.
(51:52):
We have an info query form.
So absolutely.
Cool.
Cool.
Cool.
Alright.
Well, listeners, I hope you had just as good ofa time as me and Will did.
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
Thank you so much.
Bye.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
(52:13):
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
(52:38):
Just go to building scale dot net slash help.
And until next time,
keep building scale.
Scale.
So if you think of the the floating cities thatare very futuristic and looking like, those are
(00:04):
things that we work on.
We're in the process of writing the firstwaterfront code for New York City.
So there is a lot of opportunity, I think, inthis space, particularly at this moment in time
where climate adaptation is a, you know,trending theme in in much of our work.
And you think about the waterfront as perhapsthe most vulnerable typology that there is
where sea level's rising, there's floodingconcerns and considerations.
(00:24):
And so we're whether formally trained or on thejob trained, we're all trained to look at, you
know, what are the vulnerabilities?
How do we protect against them in our day today working on the waterfront?
So that translates very seamlessly to evenupland typologies where maybe it's a landlocked
site, but there are flooding concerns rightnow, especially with the climate changing.
(00:45):
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you are in
luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Fora.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(01:10):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
(01:33):
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to building scale dot net slash help.
Today's guest is Dina Prasthos, the founder andCEO of Indigo River, a woman owned design firm
(01:57):
leading the way in progressive waterfrontarchitecture, resiliency, and climate
adaptation.
Trailblazing a new industry category, Dina isthe 1st waterfront architect specializing in
client adaptation solutions and integrateddesign, engineering, and technology to address
challenges at the water's edge.
Indigo River operates as a one stop shop forclimate ad adaptation, waterfront
(02:19):
infrastructure, and resiliency projects.
They guide their clients through all projectphases from ideation to construction and
operations.
As a leading authority in New York Harbor andbeyond, they have notable projects such as East
Side Coastal Resiliency in Manhattan, Robert DeNiro's Wildflower Studios in Astoria, River
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Ring in Williamsburg, and Harlem River Greenwayin East Harlem, to name a few.
And with all that said, Dina, welcome to theshow.
Hi, Justin.
Thank you for having me.
Hi, Will.
How you doing?
I laugh, simply because, the 2 of you know thatI don't know how to say your last name very
well.
After, I don't know, 38 takes, I got it right.
(03:00):
So at least right ish.
So we're we're good.
We're in a better place now.
But nonetheless, tell us the real story.
So I gave I gave some awesome highlights, buttell us, hey, about you and Indigo River.
Sure.
So I have a background academic background inarchitecture, and I have, an undergrad 5 year
bachelor's degree in architecture and then amaster's in civil engineering.
(03:22):
And my career path that I took was through theconstruction industry, the engineering
industry, and then finally full circle toarchitecture and decided to launch a firm
specializing in what I had experience in, whichis waterfront architecture and infrastructure.
Okay.
So you went the engineering architecture routeand then decided to start a company because
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well, tell us, why did you wanna start acompany?
So the experience that I had early in mycareer, both in construction and engineering,
it started out just as a kind of happenstanceproject.
I was putting on a waterfront project andquickly, within a couple years, learn how
nuanced working on the waterfront is throughthe lens of construction.
I was on the design build project in StatenIsland, the Staten Island Ferry Terminal, and I
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began seeing the, specialty services that wererequired and the kind of niche areas of
expertise that I was getting experience in.
And so the next company that I worked at 6, 7years later was a marine engineering firm.
And, similarly, it was working on all differentwaterfront typologies.
Often, I was the only kind of architect in theroom.
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I wasn't licensed at the time, but I was seeinga lot of other engineers and super specialized
engineering tracks, coastal marine diveengineers.
But these waterfront open public spaces oftenwere not being coordinated by an architect, and
I have the kind of master planner, Renaissancearchitect vision in my head about how an arc
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architect operates.
And saw the opportunity for me to serve myagency as an architect in these types of,
geophysical properties.
And so not so it may be different to a lot ofarchitects that specialize on programmatic
types, like hospitals or or things like that.
I decided very intentionally to focus on ageophysical property, which is where nature
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meets man made, where dry meets wet, and havenow grown a company.
We're 20 people.
We have engineers.
We have architects.
We have planners.
We have within engineering, we have marinearchitects, coastal architects, excuse me, many
different types of engineering, environmentalengineering.
And within planners, we have urban planners,waterfront typology planners.
And within architects, we have naval architectsthat focus on floating assets.
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We have landscape architects and, of course,traditional kind of building and infrastructure
architects that round out our team.
Okay.
So what I just heard is they're not dime adozen because this is the first time that we've
had anyone in on the Waterfront Maritime interms of architecture goes, and we've done
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quite a few episodes.
So how do you find these people, or do you haveto just train everyone that comes to you?
Just whatever you did in school, forget it.
And now now you gotta start over.
How does that work?
So I I think there's a lot to be said for whatis learned in school, and even more to be said
for what's learned in practice in the field.
And so the the types of talent that we attractnow, I mean, the on the engineering side, it is
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already more specialized.
We have a lot of specialties that, you know,people come out of school in a you know,
whether it's civil or environmental or whateverthe the subdiscipline is, they're already
specialized.
Within architecture and planning, it's not ascommon.
And so I'd say the the types of architects andtypes of planners that we attract do have a
very deep seated appreciation for nature.
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Many have dual majors in environmental sciencesand architecture, and it's it's a company that
is unlike many others because we really arepassionate about blurring the lines and having
kind of this Venn diagram of individuals andtheir specialties and their vantage points and
and how they see the built environment.
So it's not it's not that there's any degreeyou can go get for waterfront architecture,
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waterfront infrastructure, but ours is acompany that's focused on the the types of
programmatic projects that we get.
So we get, you know, marina projects.
We get port projects, ferry terminals, ferrylandings, park facilities on the water,
floating projects.
So if you think of it, the floating cities thatare very futuristic and looking like, those are
things that we work on.
We're in the process of writing the firstwaterfront code for New York City.
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So there is a lot of opportunity, I think, inthis space, particularly at this moment in time
where climate adaptation is a, you know,trending theme in in much of our work.
And you think about the waterfront as perhapsthe most vulnerable typology that there is
where sea levels rising, there's floodingconcerns and considerations.
And so we're whether formally trained or on thejob trained, we're all trained to look at, you
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know, what are the vulnerabilities?
How do we protect against them in our day today working on the waterfront?
So that translates very seamlessly to evenupland typologies where maybe it's a landlocked
site, but there are flooding concerns rightnow, especially with the climate changing.
So where did the blend of, you know, beingmission driven, right, like, there's a mission
driven component to this, as well as as aentrepreneur, it's very blue ocean.
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Right?
Like, you don't have you you you're not you'rejust not lines and lines of waterfront
architects.
So where does that blend kinda meet?
So I think for for us, I saw it as anopportunity.
Certainly having worked for larger firms, thethe 2 firms I worked at before launching, or 2
of the the firms that I worked at beforelaunching for most of my career, were firms
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that were often the prime on a contract, andwe're always highly hiring small, whether
they're women owned or minority owned, veteranowned businesses.
And I really saw an opportunity as the prime inthe space, especially for specialized areas of
focus to offer these services because we werein a position as a prime looking to satisfy
oftentimes, you can imagine much of our work isgovernment run, looking to satisfy criteria for
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women owned or veteran owned or minority ownedand not finding the types of contractors and
the type of consultants that we needed.
And so we saw very early on before I launched,there was an opportunity in this space to be
specialized and to offer these services onthese types of contracts.
And so sure enough, launched and didn't reallyhave to have I mean, we hired our first couple
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clients on a retainer basis.
But beyond that, we got certified as a womanowned business and kinda hit the ground running
with the opportunities that were available tous.
And I would say the entrepreneurial side, yes,yes, we're mission driven, but the
entrepreneurial side is identifying theopportunity and believing in the need for it.
And we have since launched kind of partnercompanies and and businesses that veteran owned
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and minority owned that offer complimentaryservices.
And we can offer, you know, construction costestimating and scheduling and sequencing, which
for for any project, it is a lot.
But for this for the waterfront is veryspecific and nuanced to what is needed on the
waterfront.
What types of equipment, how to work in thetide cycles, what is allowed by environmental
and regulatory agencies.
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So there's a lot of restrictions andconstraints that come with working on the
waterfront.
Any way you slice it, whether in design or inconstruction or in operations and maintenance.
And so we saw a way to offer services throughthrough different avenues, but all again
related to the waterfront in that area whereland meets water and man made meets nature and,
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kind of so on.
Did you think starting the company that youwould be writing code for the largest city in
the in the country?
Is did you did you is that part of the visionwhen you
were It wasn't the first
vision boarding this thing?
Certainly certainly knew there was a needbecause we had experienced it as a need, kind
of the way New York City operates or hasoperated historically is that the waterfront
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doesn't go to department of building to get abuilding permit.
It goes through department of small businessservices just the way that the waterfront is
managed, maintained, and and operated in NewYork City historically.
And what the agency was trying to do for a verylong time was apply the building code to
waterfront typologies, which in many ways justdoesn't work.
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And it's it's not black and white as code issupposed to be.
And so it was kind of a constant battle and anunpredictable process trying to get that last
stage permit, from the the equipment of the,you know, the building department.
And so it was a it was a no need.
And it was a a larger project.
We're a sub consultant on the team, but we arespecializing in the waterfront or, excuse me,
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specializing on the architectural chapters ofthe waterfront code.
So it wasn't the first thought, but happy to bea part of it and happy to, kinda get this
experience under our belt.
So, you know, since you're doing all this workfor, really, the city, is this something that
can be learned at school, or is this somethingthat can only be learned at the job,
essentially through experience?
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I think over time, definitely can be learned,through an academic setting in school.
I think a lot about how professions haveevolved.
I serve on the National Council forArchitecture Registration Boards, the the
licensing body for architecture architectsnationally that facilitate licensure with each
of the states.
And we parallel often to the engineeringindustry and how their licensure has evolved
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over time.
And you think historically kind of when it was,you know, maybe 5 different disciplines of
engineering.
There was civil and there was electrical andthere was mechanical and kind of how many
fields of engineering have then spawned.
And now there's you know, under civil, youcould say there is environmental and all of
these marine disciplines, marine and coastal.
And we have a professional engineer diver thatgoes underwater and inspect structures.
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And there are all these specialties that haveevolved out of engineering and the professional
engineers.
Architecture doesn't have that.
There's just kind of one general architecturelicense.
And so I think in terms of specialization, thefield itself hasn't quite primed for
specialization.
Not to say that there isn't a need and thereisn't a benefit to the public by doing that,
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but I think I'm kind of operating on theperiphery and pun intended on the edge of what
architecture is.
And that's something that certainly there'smore opportunity for because if you look at
kind of these extreme situations, like I said,on the waterfront, very vulnerable.
There's a lot of lessons to be learned that canthen be applied to other sites that aren't
waterfront sites, but that ability to work verycomfortably with water, certainly translates
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to, you know, flood prone areas and what floodmitigation measures can be installed on an
upland site or a landlocked site.
So I I do believe there's a lot of benefit, butto answer your original question, is there a
program that you can go get, you know,specialized in waterfront architecture?
No.
I believe there are other specialties thatmaybe are a little bit further advanced where
there are, you know, like health carespecialization courses or masters or
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certification programs that one can go through.
But as far as, you know, architecture and andthe climate and waterfront, no.
So are you having to then train all yourpeople?
So we do train.
Many come, like I said, with some awarenessaround the environment, either, a dual degree
or, you know, they might have been on oneproject that they really love for specific
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reasons and that passion kind of sparks andaligns with what we're doing.
And so training on the job, it's you know, wehope everyone's learning on every job, but it
comes very naturally to us.
And and many of the many of the people thatwe've attracted are people who we've worked
with on past jobs that are waterfront sitesthat have an awareness around what it means to
work on the waterfront.
So for anyone that is trying to specialize, thefirst client is usually the hardest.
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And then it goes from there.
Was getting the 1st client the hardest thingfor you or was it something else?
So the first client was not hard for us becausewe had good working relations and we weren't we
had, you know, non solicitations on competeswith our former employers that we were
honoring, in setting up.
And and in truth, we weren't competing becausewe were not offering engineering architecture
services from day 1.
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And so we were able to start by offering ownersrep services for, construction management and
for other things that complement what we do andevolved into architecture and engineering on
the waterfront.
But we were able to do that in a way that gaveus kind of runway to to grow our team and to,
find the right opportunities where we couldspecialize and continue to to grow and evolve.
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I think probably one of the harder things was abreak point of as a principal, as a productive
principal, you know, doing the work ourselvesversus, yeah, training the people and
offloading that.
A couple years in, I realized I I didn't haveto renew my AutoCAD license.
I didn't have to do certain things in thosemilestones that I think are important because,
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yes, I'm an architect, but I'm I'm not in CAD.
I'm never drafting.
I'm not doing certain things.
I'm kind of in a different position where I'mmanaging people that, yes, now we have a a more
vertical structure.
But it took some concerted steps and efforts toget away from, I'll just do it.
It's easier for me.
It's quicker for me as a as a business leaderto grow in that direction.
Do you so, do you still provide input for bigprojects?
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Or you do?
Yes.
Absolutely.
And but it's it's at what intervals I'minvolved.
Again, not doing necessarily the productive dayto day and the minutes and the agendas, but I
am weighing in on the the bigger decisions andthe the broad brush strokes of, you know, the
direction of projects.
Can you give some examples of, like I imaginethat letting go had to be kinda hard.
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Is that true?
Let me let me start with that.
Yes.
It is.
And it's especially hard when things don't gothe way that, you know, I would have done them.
But that's that's part of growth and that'spart of other people learning also is you learn
by failing and that's just the truth and youlearn a lot better than doing the right thing
is doing the wrong thing and learning from it.
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And so that is a kind of way that we operate aswe give people the runway and the opportunity
in the room to fail and to make the decisionsand to to go on their instinct, not in a
uncoordinated and, what's the word,uncontrollable way.
I mean, we're we're careful about it, but we wehave regular check ins.
We're giving people room to make the decisionsthough and not micromanaging.
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Kind of wanted to stay far away frommicromanaging.
So can you give us some examples of where, youknow, you're letting go.
It didn't work or it's not going exactly theway you imagine, but it still worked well.
And also counter to that, because I thinkthat's the easier example, is where it didn't
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work so well.
And how did you manage through that?
Sure.
So, an example of it going well.
So I, early on in the company, started a kindof a a template of a flood resiliency report
and a flood emergency action plan and and kindof put into template form, you know, for one
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specific project initially and then built on itand was expecting these templates to be kind of
plug and play.
Yes.
Specific to different projects, differentsites, different constraints, different risks,
but thought it would be relatively quick to getthese kind of updated and, you know, follow-up
process and and kind of bang them out for formultiple projects.
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And it was, but one of the things I found is wehave, a lot of really great people on our team,
and you can go down the rabbit hole and you cankind of had to find the right threshold for
where to cut off and the level of detail, thelevel of information, the amount of research,
that really, you know, constitutes duediligence.
And so that was something where the report hasbeen refined time over time, and it's it's in a
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good place now, but it's it's getting a comfortwith what amount of time is too much and what
amount of time is not enough and how are we,you know, maintaining responsible control but
not blowing a budget on a on a given projectthat's unnecessary.
And so that has happened with, I I think, someof these reports, a time where it hasn't gone
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well.
Let me think.
So early on, we, you know, we wear many hats,especially architects.
We can do everything.
Well, we can do everything, and it can charge alot to do everything.
And so early on, we figured out that some ofthe the individuals we had, you know, different
different rates to different billable rates,just wasn't efficient to have them, whether
it's drafting or modeling or whatever it was.
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And so figuring out and, maybe a little late onsome projects, but figuring out at what
threshold we need to outsource some of thatwork, took some time.
And so I think it's it's hard, especially inearly stages of a company.
You value people's time.
You value what you're paying them.
Sometimes you can discount what you valueyourself in your own time.
And so something that I think, alright, ittakes me 10 minutes just to manipulate and cut
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it and get it back out.
Can't scale that for everyone in the company.
And there is a threshold where that QAQC andthe markups and the red lines and the revision
cycles need to be documented, and it starts totake longer.
But there's also a threshold in which we canoutsource a lot of that and keep in house the
higher decision making abilities, but outsourcea lot of the kind of mechanical tasks.
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So as you're continuing to scale, really, theonly way to be able to scale is to continue
letting things go.
How do you hold people accountable to thethings that you let go?
So we have regular check ins.
We have a clear kind of organization structureand hierarchy, and we have regular check ins.
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Everyone on the team has a check-in, not withevery principal or with every, executive, but
we do have regular check ins where, it is clearwhat's you know, what are the hot items, what
are the long lead items.
And there's a a natural tracking that occurswith those.
There's, you know, minutes that are taken.
And when things start to go awry, we doimplement performance improvement plans.
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And so that's something where, alright, youmiss something, it happens, or it wasn't
communicated that something slipped in priorityor perceived to have slipped in priority and
something slipped through the cracks or ithappens once, happens twice.
You get kind of verbal warning what happenedhere.
Let's talk about it.
Continues to happen.
We start to identify a pattern, and then we'reputting into place a performance improvement
plan because it's not, it's not the goal forthe person to fail, but it's also important to
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understand, you know, why is this happening?
Is it a developmental action plan that needs togo into place, or is it something that's, you
know, reflected on us that we're not givingthem the tools they need to succeed and just to
get to the bottom of it and and work in theright direction so that the issue is resolved
and also the individual is developed.
I know I'm about to open up a can of worms withwhat you said.
(21:36):
So I'm gonna ask for your opinion, on do PIPswork?
They can.
They don't always.
Sometimes it's a flag that and one of thethings we say is hire slow, fire fast.
So they don't always work.
And sometimes if it's we like to have patience.
We like to understand different circumstancesand accentuating circumstances in particular,
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but they don't always work.
But we do exercise due diligence and documentthroughout.
So breaking obviously any type ofconfidentiality.
What do you see, what do you see in terms ofthe PIP?
Why it works and then why it doesn't work?
Let's start with the why it works.
(22:18):
So times where we've seen it work and thereasons why I think it has worked is because
the the message is very clear.
It's measurable.
It's actionable.
We can we can get through, kind of step by stepunderstanding what the goal is and how to
achieve it.
And so when things start to become missed, it'ssometimes it's a reflection on management.
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Sometimes it's the managers not being clear inwhat's being asked or giving mixed signals,
mixed communication.
So sometimes it's on us.
But sometimes when it's it's not, when itdoesn't work, it's the employee is it's just
not resonating what the priority is or what thewhat the expectation is, what the caliber, what
the quality, what the quantity, whatever it isthat we're trying to measure, they're not
(23:01):
hitting that mark and they're notcommunicating.
And that can be a thing too where we havepeople who are, you know, experts in different
softwares, and I'm not an expert in some ofthese softwares.
So I don't know how long something will take.
And I'm not I'm I'm trusting everyone to beresponsible.
And we do have a culture of trust in our team,which cannot be taken advantage of.
Absolutely.
But we are highly communicative around what theexpectations are, what the goals are.
(23:24):
And if we need to screen share and shadow andwatch and understand what the production is on
something, we can do that.
Last question on this on this thread.
Excuse me.
On this thread cause I just find this superfascinating.
If you don't know.
Okay.
Right.
You're not expertise on the software orwhatever.
What is your how do you gauge?
(23:44):
Right.
Then what is?
Because if you don't have, let's say, directexperience with it, then how do you figure that
out so that you have age or number or metric?
Like, how do you then figure that out if youdon't have direct experience with it?
So we have kind of a hierarchy and a seniorlevel of leadership that maybe doesn't have
(24:04):
direct experience in the latest software, butthey know enough and they've practiced long
enough in the industry that they have someawareness around it.
And so even if it's something that it might notbe in house, it might be something that we send
a a surveyor out to collect some information.
We know generally enough about what needs to bedone that even when we have a sub consultant
give us a number, we'll say, wait.
(24:25):
This is, you know, astronomically more than wethought.
What's going on here?
This is what we actually need and kind of talkthrough the mechanics of the step by step.
What is needed to achieve this?
And sometimes there are things that we justdon't know and they're justifiable, and other
time, this kind of calling BS on something.
You seem very comfortable as as a CEO.
Right?
You seem you seem very much like you love it,which becomes struggling sometimes when you
(24:46):
have somebody that is, an architect or is anengineer or is in construction, and they're
like, I can just do it better, and then they gooff to go do their own thing and then realize,
shit.
Like, there's a lot more things that areinvolved here than just doing a great job.
Right?
So do you find that you just really enjoy thatside maybe more than the architect engineering
(25:07):
side?
I will say I've I've worked in some maybe it'sout of my experience, and I've had poor
experiences where I didn't feel like I wastrusted or I didn't feel like I was given room
to achieve my potential or whatever it wasthat, again, I I'm very open.
My business partner is open.
The principles are open to having conversationand and kind of walking through things together
(25:31):
that our assumptions might be wrong, but we'revery transparent in our culture.
We're very open about, you know, when things gowell and when things don't go well.
And we don't penalize when things don't gowell.
It's alright, let's learn from it as a team.
We're not pointing the finger.
We're figuring out a solution, and then we'regoing back and, you know, what were the lessons
learned?
And so it is, I think, a reflection of theculture.
But me, personally, I do greatly enjoydeveloping our team.
(25:55):
No.
But it's very obvious based on your youranswers.
They're very, yeah, they're just they're verysmart.
How do you how do you come to agreements ondisagreements?
Right?
So you said, do you have other principles?
Like, I assume that everybody has some form ofsay in in some way or another.
So how do how do how do you get to thedecisions when maybe the two sides are not
seeing eye to eye?
(26:15):
So I'm trying to think of real disagreementswe've had at senior levels, and there there
aren't many.
I would say my my business partner and I areare fairly well aligned, and we, yeah, we have
different opinions on things.
Sometimes we'll talk them through, and andsometimes it's, I think, like in a marriage,
you kinda pick your battles of, you know,what's really important and why.
I mean, always a culture of respect, and wedon't have to agree on things.
(26:35):
But sometimes we'll bring in other expertiseoutside expertise, whether it's, you know,
another person internal to the company orsomeone outside of the company, whether it's
outside counsel or an accountant or whateverthe issue is, or if it's, you know, a design
detail that we just don't agree on and hisexperience was in the field doing one thing and
my experience was in the field doing anotherthing, we'll call our networks.
(26:57):
We'll say, hey.
We're running into this issue or kind ofthinking these two things.
What do you think?
And just get that advice in house.
Got it.
So how, how helpful is that third party,whether it internally or externally that you've
seen?
It's just seeing somebody else's point of viewthat when you're you're trying to come to
conclusion, obviously, having a consultant comein, the the value I've said this tons of time.
(27:22):
The value a consultant brings is they're not inthe business.
Right?
So, like, they're looking at it veryobjectively.
Like, they're just saying, like, this is how itworks.
Like, this is how the pieces fit compared to,like, well, Bob does this, and Judy does this,
and there's this whole dynamic of thing.
And, like, it's like all that's thrown awaybecause, like, they have no concept of it.
So where do you you know, how often do you seethe value of bringing that 3rd party in?
(27:45):
Pretty often.
And it's not always that we're we're paying,you know, an outside consultant for the
service.
Sometimes it's just it's our network.
It's our resources, people who we worked in thepast, people who we respect in the industry.
So it's it's not always that we're paying forit, but I would say more often than not, when
we go outside to get an opinion or advice onsomething, it is helpful even if it's alright.
(28:06):
Now we both changed our mind.
We're definitely not doing it or whateverwhatever it is.
Sometimes it's hearing it back from an outsideparty that allows us to recalibrate or reframe.
No.
Totally.
That makes perfect sense.
So then have you built out, processes for notjust obviously, like, this is our process to
use AutoCAD or this is our process for that,but, like, have you built out processes for
(28:27):
business items?
Something inside business.
Like, this is how we make decisions.
This is, like, when we look at cash flow, welook at our p and l.
Like, this is how we do that.
Like, what does that look like?
And, obviously, since the beginning to today,how has that changed?
So we we have built out some.
Certainly, we have more on our list that wewould like to build out and that I think is
natural as as we scale.
(28:48):
But it, you know, it started with 2 people and4 people, 8 people kind of doubling every year.
We're at 20 people and and we've we've seensome fissures.
We've seen some some cracks where, alright, wewe scaled a little too fast or we need to roll
this back or we need to, you know, someoneneeds to QC this every day.
It needs to be the same person looking atmaking sure it's standardized, whatever it is.
And so we've some of that we've done and someof it's, you know, business practices and, you
(29:11):
know, invoicing cycles and things like that.
Others are, you know, design development, QA,QC processes, and formatting and standards and
controls and and things like that that we havedeveloped.
We certainly have more to go and that I thinkthat comes with that letting go phase of, I
know how I do it and how it looks good.
I know how it's gonna go out.
(29:31):
I trust that I'm doing it.
I'll have someone else look at it, but it's,you know, a lot of consistency in what one
person is producing.
And then, I guess, as you scale, thoseassumptions that you're making aren't
translated at every level.
And so then you have to kinda go in and andwhether you're codifying them or standardizing
them or whatever it is, we start to see wherethere are inconsistencies or something goes out
(29:52):
and who looked at this.
And it's you know, we have these reality checksthat kinda bring us back to, alright, this
needs to be a priority this year.
We're standardizing this, or we're making thisinto a process, or this is a procedure for
that, whatever it is.
How does software play a part in yourorganization?
There's a lot of everyone's using some versionof AutoCAD, Revit, etcetera.
But then there are, let's say, Enscape orthere's a lot of other engineering slash
(30:19):
architectural software that surrounds the majorthe major platforms, but I love what they are.
So, how much does software play a part in termsof making you more efficient or better than,
let's say, another company that, let's say,would compete for the same business?
So to answer literally about the software, Ithink, certainly, it's a part of it.
(30:42):
I think it's more philosophy around thesoftware, and we are firmly of the belief.
And again, this some of this comes out of myexperience that I felt like I got out of
school.
I had training in all the latest softwares, andthen I wasn't allowed to get licenses for any
of it.
And I kind of had to degrade my work productionto match whatever the company would support in
terms of licensing software and felt like thatwas, you know, not the direction that was I
(31:05):
understood it from a business decision andprocesses and procedures.
But for us, we we are a young company.
We're able to be more agile.
We are dynamic.
We are trusting of our individuals.
And so we've trusted in our individuals to tellus, alright.
This is software.
It's gonna make me more productive in this way.
I don't know the software.
I don't know how to use it, but we'll take theleap.
We'll have a pilot project.
(31:26):
We'll demo it.
We'll see if it's worthwhile to train otherindividuals on it.
And we've I mean, even as simple as kind ofwhat we look at documents in, we have a divide
in our company.
We have the architects and the planners thatswear by and will only use Adobe products and
for with good reason, and I'm in that camp.
We also have the engineers who will only useBluebeam to do markups.
(31:47):
And so we have a divide even internally in thecompany, and it works to kind of give people
the option.
And that may come to a breaking point where weneed to just standardize 1.
But so far, how we're operating, it works, andit's kind of the preference of the individual
and what they are most proficient at and mostproductive in.
And so that's something that we kind of take ona case by case, but we'll, you know, make the
(32:08):
case for it and go.
You mentioned, growth or, you know, scaleearlier and how, like, you when you it happens
too fast when you double up and double up anddouble up, it it can put the strain on you
know, show the cracks.
Where are some of those things that you haveseen just historically?
Obviously, you got from 2 to 4 to 8 to, youknow, 20 at this point.
(32:29):
You know, what were some of those stories of,like, you know, we've grown too fast?
Like, people think growth's great.
Love growth.
Let's keep growing.
Grow, grow, grow.
But in reality, there are limitations to that,unless you have a stockpile of money sitting
somewhere that you can just pour on it.
Yeah.
No.
We I I think one of the more important thingsthat we do and that has helped us in that arena
(32:52):
is not not only looking kind of top down atwhat our potential is, but but having annually,
we have a meeting where we're very transparentwith all of our information, whether we set our
goals together, where we stacked up againstlast year's goals, What the priority kind of
side projects are?
Target areas, industry, market growth, thingswill will kind of go through that every very
(33:13):
much feels like everyone is an owner.
Everyone's giving their their perspective.
And the 1 year we did that we do it every year,but 1 year we had done it, and we had an
opportunity.
It was it was going into 2020.
And we had the opportunity to go from I thinkwe were 4 people at the start of 2020 to 8.
And it was like an overnight opportunity wherewe had the hires identified and we floated it
(33:35):
to the team that this isn't ownership.
We my partner and I, we were ready to go.
We had kind of pedal to the metal.
We had interviewed.
We were ready to extend the offers.
And, I mean, in hindsight, thank thank goodnesswe didn't do this because 2020 hit.
A lot of things came to a halt.
Whole another podcast on how to navigate that.
But but we opened up to our company and said,this is what we're thinking of doing.
(33:56):
What do you guys think?
And it was no.
We need to get our systems in order.
We have these things if we do that.
We how are we gonna it it was a lot ofquestions that we realized.
Okay.
The assumptions that we're making aren'ttranslating to every level, and we need to
translate those before we grow because it willonly become harder.
(34:17):
And we didn't.
We slowed our growth, and we grew deliberatelyin the areas that we we wanted to.
And we kind of have a direction every year, 1or 2 directions that we hire target people in
to round out our business services.
And that was a really good time where wedidn't.
We continued to grow slowly, thought into whatdirections and how to control that growth.
(34:40):
So does that mean does that mean that you know,with controlled so what you're I'm gonna use
your words here.
So with controlled growth, because I thinkevery entrepreneur is pedal to the metal.
I think that's just in their DNA.
So how do you how do you get was it acompromise?
(35:02):
Was it a, was it a sacrifice to slow downgrowth?
Tell me tell me about that.
So there's always a trade off, and and it itmight have been a completely different outcome
or retrospect if, you know, pandemic didn'thappen and we we lost an opportunity, but it
was it was an opportunity to grow in a slightlydifferent direction than where we have ended up
(35:24):
growing.
And it wasn't a compromise.
It was this is a contract we can either take itor leave it, and put 4 people on the job site
and grow that way.
But it wasn't it wasn't truly aligned to thevision of of of how we've ended up growing, the
direction we ended up growing in.
And that gave us the opportunity.
(35:45):
Yes.
It was a trade off.
It wasn't doubling our revenue in 1 year.
It was a decision to focus in differentbusiness areas and grow more slowly in those
areas while taking the the time to refine and Iwouldn't use the term perfect, but refine some
of our dealings and our processes or proceduresor standards.
(36:05):
K.
Justin, I think you wanted to you wanted to asksomething.
Yeah.
I, obviously, going to the team.
Right?
Having this, hey.
Like, this is the vision for the year.
This is that are there checkpoints during theyear that you're also saying, like, hey.
Q one's over.
Q two's over halfway through the year.
This is where we're standing.
Like, hey.
We've already done these great things, or, hey.
(36:26):
We're behind here.
Like, is that part of this process when you're,you know, being candid with the team that way?
So we do generally every year in February, wedo kind of self evaluations and employee
reviews and those and and in that process, wealso get feedback on the company.
What's been good?
What hasn't been good?
Where do we need to improve?
What are competitors doing?
What's the word on the street?
We kind of get a lot of information back.
(36:48):
And then we synthesize that into our we call itthe state of the onion where we peel back the
layers, but we we bake it into a meeting thatwe usually have around Pi Day, March 14th.
Mhmm.
And we eat pie during our meeting.
We, we go through and we kind of we're verytransparent with, you know, what the financial
goals were, what we what we projected, what wehit.
(37:09):
And that happens once a year.
And we go through everything from, you know,financials and strategy and lessons learned and
hiring and culture and kind of as much as wecan cover in the day, we do.
And it's very kind of Socratic as we have a anagenda that we follow.
We have a presentation that's prepared, but alot of it is just to spark and have insight and
(37:29):
conversation that we, you know, we gather andand then debrief on later as as principals.
The principals then meet biannually in person,but quarterly to get the updates on.
Alright.
We set this goal.
What are we tracking against that goal?
Just more of the kind of factual informationbased on goals and any any specific issues that
(37:52):
are rising or any big strategic discussionsthat need to occur.
The principals are meeting quarterly and andreally a little bit deeper semiannually.
Got it.
Okay.
When you were talking about feedback, I'mcurious.
Does the feedback from employees, do they alsogive feedback on their, essentially, their
(38:13):
direct, their direct managers, or is it aboutthe company overall?
All of the above.
And some of that we allow to be, like, 3 60feedback that isn't direct you know, never
comfortable giving a review directly to theperson you're reviewing kind of thing.
So some of it, you know, some of it is face toface, some of it is 360 feedback, and some of
it on the company, we do often via Mentimeterwhere we'll get information.
(38:37):
It's kind of randomized, but it's in real time,and there is a a non anonymity to it.
And so we can say, you know, how would youdescribe our culture in one word?
Those kinds of questions that we can start toget a cloud word cloud together.
And then they're also, you know, what was yourhighlight of year?
And some of those are more telling depending onthe individual, but what is the low point?
(38:58):
What do we need to work on?
We we kind of go through weaknesses, strengths,opportunities, threats, and and crowdsource
that information more anonymously.
How would you describe the culture in one word,Dina?
Respectful.
K.
How it's obviously you're doing all this, soculture is important.
Right?
You wanna have you wanna have a good culture.
Going from, you know, going from a big entityinto your own business, what were some of those
(39:23):
thoughts that, you know, you there was I'm surethere were things, and not to we're not
badmouthing in somebody else's culture, but,like, sure there were things that you wanted to
be different.
Like, you wanted to say, this culture needs tolook this way and and be thought of this way,
and we need to be intentional.
Right?
Be intentional with it.
What did that look like, you know, when it was2 of you?
(39:43):
And now what does that maybe look maybedifferent, maybe exactly the same today when
it's 20?
Certainly certainly just that to beintentional, to be deliberate, to be
thoughtful, to be respectful, and to be I thinkone of the things about the architecture
engineering construction industry as a whole isthat they're the cultures and the businesses
(40:03):
themselves often operate as kind of theseantiquated monster machines, very slowly, slow
to change, slow to adapt technology.
We knew we wanted to be and we knew the theindustry deserves to be more nimble, more
agile, more flexible.
And so those things are also embodied in ourculture.
So we are not so rigid that this is what wesay, and it's letter of the law, and we're
(40:25):
never gonna change on it.
No.
Give us an argument to change on it.
We will.
Like, we'll we'll talk through it and challengeour opinion.
We don't want to be the smartest people.
We want to hire the smartest people.
So we'll have a discussion about it.
You know, when you're having those discussions,there's the it requires a certain level of
trust to be able to have honest conversations.
And in order to build that trust, it takes timeto be able to trust that there isn't, let's
(40:46):
say, lash back from the feedback or fromconstructive feedback from happening.
How are you building trust or how are your sortof leaders building trust within the company?
And how are you accelerating that timeline sothat it doesn't take years to build that trust?
It takes a lot less.
Yeah.
I think some of that is born out of how how wegrew and we grew very organically.
(41:09):
We didn't put up job postings and have a bunchof resumes to filter through.
Much of our growth was through relationshipsthat we had, whether working alongside, working
under, working for so my business partner andI, he hired me at one of my companies.
And when I left, he said, if I ever leave,we're gonna do something.
We're gonna go out on our own.
I said, yeah.
Right.
You he was my boss at the time.
10 years my senior.
I said, alright.
(41:29):
Whatever.
And I left.
And sure enough, a couple of years later, I wasready.
He was ready.
We launched.
And many of our first hires also were whetheror not direct working relationships that we had
working in the same company.
We might have worked on a job together oppositeeach other, might have been a client, might
have been a referral of someone that we workedwith.
But a lot of the early growth, I I think veryfew of our of our employees came as a as a
(41:55):
blank slate, kind of through a job, through ana resume application, maybe 1 or 2.
But much of that, I think, that trust, some ofthat was already built in because we weren't an
employer when we had formed the relationship.
We knew how each other operated.
We knew each other's values.
We knew the quality of each other's work.
So a lot of that was baked in early on to ourgrowth.
And once you have that momentum and you havethose relationships, it's kind of a magnetism
(42:18):
because the more people we hire, the the,larger our network becomes to continue to grow.
Definitely gave some very interesting answers.
Gave give a lot to what I can tell from ourconversation is that it there's a lot of
intentionality in how you're organizing.
Not to say that there were no failures, but Ithink you pivoted from the just from what I can
(42:40):
hear, you pivoted from the failures and thencontinued on, which is sign of any great
entrepreneur to be able to move on.
So as you're growing, as you're scaling, how doyou bring that intentionality?
Because you can't do it just from one person.
Right?
You might you might be pointing the North Star,but how do you grow that intentionality to
other people within your organization?
So I think that we are mission driven.
(43:03):
Some of that is a little bit on autopilotbecause we're we're all heading in the same
direction.
Sometimes we'll start to stray.
Sometimes there'll be a little bit of atangent.
We'll we'll rein them in or they'll rein usout, whatever it is.
But I I think because of the work that we doand the the passion behind the work, the the
the realized value of what that work is, it'sit's attracted a caliber of talent and the type
(43:27):
of talent that we have been fortunate in whoour team is and who who our team has become.
And we're also not putting a ceiling on anyone.
And that, again, I think maybe from myexperience, from my business partner's
experience, felt like a ceiling was put on usunnecessarily or unjustly.
And maybe because of, you know, the systems andthe the hierarchy and some of the antiquated
(43:50):
companies out there, larger scale multinationalcompanies that need x to to go there, need y to
do this.
And, again, understanding from a businessperspective why those checks and balances are
necessary, but also understanding the trade offfor some of those.
Whereas we can be much more agile.
We can be much more nimble.
We can hire in a field engineer that we see thepotential in and give him give him the the
(44:14):
slack to see, you know, where does he take it?
And he's knocking it out of the park in year 4,and no reason not to give him more
responsibility, not to give him more.
And, yes, there may be moments which are risky,but measuring that risk, weighing that risk,
managing that risk transparently, proactively,regularly has been what helps us.
(44:34):
And so yes, we have a north star, some start togo awry but we're largely marching in the same
direction or we're talking about the directionwe're marching in, and we're prioritizing
jointly if we have limited resources wherethose resources are deployed.
So, obviously, you've you've mentioned the theold school methodology, antiquated, you know,
(44:56):
life that is maybe exists in the the AE spaceand certainly the AEC space for sure.
What what's the vision you have?
Like, when when you look at 3 years, 5 yearsdeeper, you know, down the road, where's
Indigo?
And, like, what is being done that is sodifferent than what has been done in the, you
know, the past 100 years?
So I think some of that some of that certainlyisn't in the type of projects that we work on,
(45:20):
and and that it is a niche specialty area andthat we have the opportunity to develop
responsibly in a very vulnerable area.
And not every client is willing to do that.
We still get the run of the mill client thatjust wants to flip a property, and they don't
care what the, you know, highest and best valueor the, you know, best use of resources is.
And that's hard, but it's also it's a businesswhere we offer business services, and we'll,
(45:42):
you know, execute on on what the client ispaying us to do.
But there are also other clients that we have alittle bit more latitude to set more ambitious
goals for a project than just, you know, whatthe the 20 year life cycle or the 40 year life
cycle is.
There there are other benefits that can comeout of the built environment other than, you
know, restoring what was previously there andfailed?
(46:03):
And so that, I think, again, is terms ofmission driven, attracts a certain caliber of
talent, but also gives us opportunity tocontinue exploring.
You know, materiality is changing so rapidly.
Technologies are changing so rapidly.
We have a very diversified work staff that hasdifferent expertise within the team, all
complementary and all focused around thewaterfront.
(46:24):
And so we continue developing depth in ourvertical, while also kind of expanding the
horizon of what we offer.
And so I think we'll continue to do that.
It's a really exciting moment in time whereclimate adaptation is suddenly more valued than
it was a decade ago and kind of look at howsustainability evolved as a theme or as a
(46:46):
trend, how resiliency evolved as a theme or asa trend, understanding what climate adaptation
work means in the built environment.
I think we're kind of at the front of at leastthe the newer vocabulary on on what these
things are and how to implement them.
What about the technology side?
Where do you see and this might be more of theindustry.
Like, what do you see changing?
(47:07):
Right?
So, obviously, AI, huge big deal.
Like, how big of an impact do you see thathaving, on Indigo, but then also just the
space?
Tremendous amount.
And I and it's I think it'll be dampened orslowed by some of the regulatory processes that
we have in place, but, certainly there'sopportunity to 3 d print, biomimic biomimicry
(47:32):
and spaces that can operate and sustain as anatural environment would.
But they can be constructed, they can be manmade.
So we can match we can vary, you know, thetechnological advances with material advances
and be on the fore of that as a, not as atrend, but as a kind of a staple of how we
design in the future.
(47:53):
And then then I think there's also a tremendousamount of opportunity, not only in the the
techno technological kind of how we how webuild, but also how we're collecting data back
and how that data is informing our designprocess.
And so whether it's, you know, mapping 3 dspaces underwater or flying a drone to get, you
know, what that mapping is, that's a lot moretangible now than it was a decade ago just with
(48:18):
material advances, but also the investments.
So, yes, we have professional engineer divers,but they can't get into every nook and cranny
and every space under a, you know, confinedspace in the underwater.
And so we can have a underwater drone that wefly to understand more and map it and then make
a more detailed and thoughtful decision earlieron in the process as to how we design a
(48:39):
solution for that space.
That's to me, all I think of is, like, the theunbelievable technology aspect of, like, yeah,
we just take our drone, we throw it in theharbor, and then, you know, we just just go map
out all of the underground, you know,underwater, environment.
This is just to me is
Yeah.
We're we're short putting a lot of assumptionsthat used to take place in the process that,
(49:00):
alright, if it's this, we're going to do that,or we're going to wait and see what it is when
we go down and start to deconstruct.
Well, we don't need to do that anymore.
We can, before we start designing, go and, youknow, assess what the reality is and why it got
to be that way.
And assumptions are expensive if they're wrong.
Yes.
Justin, I feel like we had a great conversationtoday.
(49:21):
Yeah.
No.
For sure.
We have one last question, though, for you,Dina.
So if you could go back 20 years, what wouldyou tell yourself?
What advice would you give yourself?
I don't know.
Maybe start earlier.
Start on my own entrepreneur as in my own on myown journey sooner.
Yeah.
Well, if you were so you said 18.
Right?
(49:41):
Is that when the firm got started?
17.
18.
2018.
2018.
So if you started even in 2010, right, so theadditional 8 years, where where would you guys
be?
I don't know that we would be in the same placeat all.
I don't think we would.
I mean, not not even in, you know, 10 years, 10more years on this trajectory or 6 more years
(50:01):
on this trajectory.
I think we are responsive to opportunities.
And I I mentioned kind of climate adaptationtrending, and it kind of took a a light bulb
moment when someone was presenting to me of allthese it was a marine engineer presenting to me
all these opportunities within the space.
And I thought, well, yeah, those areopportunities, and that's our team is doing
this.
Our team is doing that.
Our do we're we're the experts in this space.
(50:23):
Why aren't we marketing ourselves as such?
And it took kind of, reframing it, hearing itfrom from an outside perspective.
And and I think if we would have startedwhatever in 2010, 8 years earlier, we would
have been responding to differentconversations, different times, different
trends, different funding opportunities, interms of, you know, government funded projects.
We we do have a fairly balanced portfolio onsome of our especially our early work came out
(50:46):
of private opportunities.
And so it probably would have been, you know,responding to what the opportunities were as
much as continuing to pursue the passions thatwe have, which are around waterfront or nature
meets man made.
Yeah.
Alright.
No.
That's a good start earlier.
Right?
That was the the saying is, when's the besttime to plant a tree?
20 years ago, 2nd best time today.
So, no, it makes tons of sense.
(51:07):
This has been great.
This has been amazing.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell thepeople, before we say our goodbyes?
Maybe just something from from my career that II think helped me launch and and helped form
the direction that we've that that we've comeand where we're going is to take note of the
hardships, take note of the challenges, takenote of the obstacles.
Because I feel like those are the the biggestlearning moments that can shape where the
(51:31):
opportunities are, and that's what we found.
Good advice.
Awesome.
We'll throw all your, show notes or all thesocial links in the show notes.
Is there, a way for people to get a hold of youif they wanna connect with you?
Yeah.
I mean, I'm I'm active on LinkedIn.
I'm active on some of the social medias,Instagram, and, of course, through our website.
(51:52):
We have an info query form.
So absolutely.
Cool.
Cool.
Cool.
Alright.
Well, listeners, I hope you had just as good ofa time as me and Will did.
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
Thank you so much.
Bye.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
(52:13):
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
(52:38):
Just go to building scale dot net slash help.
And until next time,
keep building scale.
Scale.
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