July 8, 2025 • 45 mins
Join James Trahan as he discusses his journey in architecture and founding 180 Degrees Inc. He shares insights on risk-taking, design-build challenges, and revenue goals. The conversation touches on community involvement, philanthropy, and lessons from recessions. James highlights managing risks in unique projects, aligning client expectations, and using innovative technologies for challenges. Dive into project selection, competitive bidding, and the demands of residential vs. commercial projects. Sustainability, material upcycling, and historical preservation are emphasized, alongside leveraging technology in construction. James offers advice for aspiring AEC professionals.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We do take risk.
(00:01):
I'll be honest.
We probably have taken we've taken more than weshould have over the years.
But I think there's there's something in thearchitecture industry that sometimes architects
don't wanna push to the next level to reallyexplore different technologies, not be worried
about getting sued or not worrying about theliability of everything, which the industry is
(00:21):
very litigious.
Architecture and construction, there's a lot ofarbitration and mediation and litigation in our
industry.
And we just felt that we wanted to be a littledifferent, and that we were okay to take risks,
and we were okay to do some R and D, andfrankly, be okay to fail.
You know, in the early years, we failed quite abit, and we learned from it, and we became
(00:44):
really good at not failing on that particularitem again.
And the type of work we do is so unique, suchone offs that even people in town that we go to
try to get them to do concrete or get them todo different things, they just won't touch it.
So that's really how we'd said, okay.
We'll create a fabrication team, and we'll justtake it on ourselves.
So that's kind of how we've dealt with the riskin the past.
(01:10):
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
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We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(01:34):
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So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
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Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Today's guest is James Tra.
James is award winning architect, builder, andfounding principal of a hundred and eighty
(02:21):
Degrees Inc, a design and build firm based inPhoenix, Arizona.
Known for its bold modern designs and hands onapproach, James Blends architecture and
construction to create spaces that arefunctional as they are striking.
His firm specializes in custom residential,commercial, and adaptive reuse projects, all
executed with a deep commitment to designintegrity and craftsmanship.
(02:43):
James' work has been featured in numerousnational and international publications and has
received recognition from the AIA and other topindustry organizations.
With a passion for detail and a reputation forfearless creativity, James is redefining the
relationship between designer, builder, andclient.
We're excited to hear from James about hisdesign build philosophy, creative process, and
(03:07):
what it takes to execute truly visionary workin the built environment.
And with all that said, James, welcome to theshow.
Thank you, Justin.
Thank you, Will.
Appreciate you guys having me on.
Yeah.
We're excited.
This is a long time in the making.
We we we spoke a long time ago, me and you,James, and and now we're getting around to
this, which is a lot of fun.
Yeah.
Let's let's talk about design Absolutely.
(03:28):
It's a passion of ours.
Yeah.
For sure, which we're gonna ask a ton aboutthat.
So tell us a little bit about your yourupbringing though.
What what got you into architecture and andthen design build eventually?
Yeah.
So grew up in South Louisiana.
Always had an interest in building.
Went to college at Louisiana State in BatonRouge.
Graduated in architecture and moved out Westsoon after graduation.
(03:50):
In 'ninety three, there wasn't a ton ofemployment opportunities in the South or the
Southeast.
And so we headed west for an adventure.
Our thesis project in college was actually inChaco Canyon, New Mexico.
So, we spent several weeks out in theSouthwest, kind of fell in love with it and
kind of set up roots and been in the valleysince 'ninety three.
(04:12):
So, that's the origins of me getting out to thedesert.
That's cool.
What about the origins of 01/1980?
Yeah.
So, I was a part owner of an architectural firmthat I had started with when I moved here.
Was a principal and owner for fourteen years.
And about 02/2001, we were fairly frustratedwith the type of construction we were getting
(04:35):
on our design projects.
And we just thought we could do a better job bybuilding it ourselves.
So, went out and got a contractor's license andkind of jumped into the building aspect of it
almost twenty five years ago.
So, that was the result.
I was just frustrated with quality and we saidwe could jump into this.
And if we cared a little more and took time andpatience, that we could create something unique
(04:59):
in the building environment.
So, that kind of what started 01/1980.
Got it.
So, did you find that construction was easypeasy and no problems and you were able to just
do things better right off the bat?
No, not at all.
Not at all, Justin.
We realized early on that construction is verydifficult to the level that we wanted to build
(05:20):
or want to build or do build.
And it took a great amount of patience to sortthrough good subcontractors, vetting tradesmen,
craftsmen.
It took about three years, and I could honestlysay that, you know, financially we did not do
very well those first three years until we gotour systems in place.
Because we were coming from the other side, wewere thinking all about architecture and not
(05:43):
about efficiency in construction, a lot ofmeans and methods.
But those first three years were a goodlearning curve, enough for us to get over that
hump early design build company and go to thenext level.
So, good bumps along the way.
So, something that's really interesting aboutyou guys is you're not just your typical design
(06:04):
build.
You actually have a different arm that I wouldcall manufacturing, but you call it something
else.
Can you talk to us a little bit about what youcreated or why you created it as part of this
whole design build concept?
Yeah.
So, I think a lot of people in the industrylabel their firms as design build, but most of
(06:25):
those are contractor driven, where they hireoutside architects to come in and do design
work.
We are truly an architect led design buildcompany.
We are made up of architects.
We train our architects to go out and build.
So we're really kind of unique in the marketthat we're architects first.
We've trained our architects to go out and beproject managers, field superintendents.
(06:48):
But about fifteen years ago, we startedfabricating.
Not true manufacturing, but really doing custompieces where really unique architectural
concrete, we would take on ourselves decorativesteels, metal, wood, furniture.
And so, we kind of brought that part into thefirm.
And so, now we can truly just do architecturefor clients.
(07:09):
We can do architecture and construction, or wecan do architecture, construction, and
fabrication.
So, we can wear many hats on a particular job.
We feel it's good for us because we could takefewer projects and still gain revenue share
because we're not just getting, you know, a 10%fee for architecture.
We can get a fee for architecture,construction.
(07:30):
We can get a fee for fabrication.
And so that's been really advantageous for ourbusiness model, really.
That's really cool.
So architecture led, do you find that there'slots of architects that want to get into
construction?
For about a year.
And then they realize, woah, wait a minute.
(07:52):
Yeah.
We we see a lot of architects, I would say ingeneral, you know, I've been an architect for
thirty years.
I think a lot of architects are risk adverse,and construction, it's very risky.
You have the ability to lose, you know, quite abit of money if things go wrong.
But I've seen a lot of architects give it ashot for a couple of years, and a lot of them,
you know, move move forward with it and do verywell.
(08:14):
A lot of them really get burned out after acouple of years because it is so time consuming
and the pace is faster.
It's just pretty exhausting to be in that fastpace all the time.
Yeah, would I would feel that that would be,you know, we we talk about like task switching.
So it's just simple task switching.
I I can't imagine architecting, constructing,like switching the brain waves there because
(08:37):
they they are to your point are very differenthow you're using your brain in those scenarios.
Yeah.
And I think for us, it's really unique is thatall of our all of the people that are in the
field for us, you know, they have anarchitectural background, architectural degree.
Many of them are licensed.
So when we're building, whether we're buildingfor ourselves or for other architects, because
(08:58):
we do collaborate with outside architects, wedon't just build our own work.
We're constantly designing in the field.
We're constantly detailing things make itbetter.
Whereas a traditional architect contractorrelationship, you just lose the time and
efficiency because you're always going back tothat architect and getting details.
We have the ability with our team to reallymake on the fly good decision detailing, which
(09:23):
a lot of firms don't have that ability.
And so that gives us a great advantage onexecuting a higher quality construction.
That's awesome.
So what is the breakdown of the firm?
Obviously, you said everybody's kind ofarchitect, but like, I have to imagine you,
hey, you're part of our only architecture team.
You're more in the construction side.
There's a fabrication side as well.
What does that breakdown look like?
(09:44):
Yeah.
So we're actually pretty even across theboards.
Our construction, we're 32 people total.
We've steadily grown over the last decade, youknow, at a slow manageable pace.
The architecture team is around 10 people.
The construction team's around 10 people, andthe fabrication team's around 10 people, and
we've got some admin staff.
So it's a pretty fluid breakdown.
And over the last couple of years, we've beentrying to average out our revenue so that the
(10:10):
architecture, the construction, and thefabrication side all bring in equal amounts of
money.
So, it's been really steady over the lastseveral years to get to that goal.
So, you know, you talked about revenues beingtrying to get revenues to be steady.
How let's go back a second
to Yeah.
When you first started.
Right?
How are you getting new business?
(10:30):
Because getting a company off the ground,right, you decided, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna go
out on my own.
It's not so easy if you've got no one and noone knows about you.
Now, got a new name.
How did how did you start and how what are youwhat are you guys doing today?
Yeah.
So that's a great question.
So I've always been involved in the AIA, whichis the American Institute of Architects.
(10:54):
We've been really active in the community.
So we've established a good relationship witharchitects and contractors, you know, before we
created 01/1980.
Our first project was actually a customresidential house for a client who specialized
in window systems, sliding doors, pivot doors.
And he basically allowed us to really kind ofgo all out with his product.
(11:14):
And so, we designed a really interesting twostory glass box with all kinds of different
windows.
After some people started to see what we weredoing, there became interest in building for
other architects where people were asking us tobuild their own design projects.
And so, our first several projects had to befor architects themselves building their own
homes.
And so, we never intended to create the companyto build for other people.
(11:38):
We only wanted to build for ourselves and ourown designs.
But we we merged that thought fairly early inthe company.
And so, we've been building for otherarchitects in town that do great work.
And so, that was a diversification.
And from there, it's really just do really goodwork and word will get around that we're a
(11:58):
quality outfit.
And so we don't do a ton of marketing per se,but we have enough connections in the valley
and our referrals have really got us all thework over these two decades.
So I know sort of volunteering philanthropy islike a piece that of sort of the life cycle of
business growth.
Now, is a topic that I find fascinating becausethere's not necessarily a direct intent, but
(12:25):
can you talk about how this actually works?
Sort of it's almost to think about this and go,well, you know, if I'm gonna spend the time
here, right, I'd like to see some return.
Right?
But how does that actually work?
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Cause I know it's
a big piece of how you guys work.
Yeah.
So it's, it's hard to quantify what comes fromthose efforts.
(12:47):
Right?
Think, think building relationships in theindustry over several decades.
And I mean, really building relationships,being part of committees, being part of boards,
being part of cultural institutions.
There's a real outreach that you start to meeta lot of people.
And over time, referrals come to you in strangeways.
(13:07):
And then just happens through that continualeffort.
Currently, I'm the president of the ArizonaArchitecture Foundation, which is a nonprofit
that really advocates for architects in Arizonaand our legacy as architects.
My partner, Johnny Anderson, he's on the he's atrustee on the board for the Frank Lloyd Wright
Foundation.
My other partner, Troy Vincent, you know, he'sa member of the Men's Art Council for Phoenix
(13:32):
Art Museum.
So, this continual connection to people inindustry, you know, who come after architecture
that we do is just a constant in our firm.
So, we have people in the firm that teach atASU.
And so, we just get out there and we just meeta lot of people and make as many connections as
we can.
When we talked before, you had mentioned how in02/2008, there was a shrinking or, you know, a
(13:58):
contraction to the firm.
What did the February essentially teach you?
What came out of that?
What lessons did you learn maybe as a business,but also just maybe as a person?
It it teaches humility for sure.
And sometimes you just have to work hard to,you know, to get out of a situation.
(14:18):
I appreciate you bringing that up.
When we were part of the larger firm of 42, wehad a split where 180 took 13 employees in
2,007.
And we had plenty of work on the books,probably over $10,000,000 in design and
construction.
2008 happened and everything tanks.
We lost a good portion of our staff.
(14:40):
We went down to five people.
And basically our diversity and the fact thatwe could do architecture and construction
helped us get through those rough times.
Because a lot of architects, you know, friendsthat I had, they were frankly just going out of
business because there was no work.
But we were able to keep some small projectsgoing and physically do the work ourselves.
So we would go build gabion baskets andretaining walls, we'd sit there and stack rocks
(15:05):
and things, anything to make payroll.
I think our most interesting thing was that fortwo weeks, we actually cleaned the houses of
a model home out in
a development that had gone bankrupt.
So, you know, never thinking I would design aproduction home, now I'm cleaning the windows
of a production home in the middle of thedesert that's bankrupt.
(15:26):
And, five of us did that for two weeks to makepayroll.
And we called ourselves the Squeegee Ninjas.
And those are humiliating times, but, the hardwork got us through to keep the brand going.
Our biggest project came from a house we did inkind of a small, a small villa, really.
It was a 23,000 square foot footprint housemade of completely stone.
(15:50):
We just said, okay, if we can start that house,we will survive.
And the house kept going on and going onwithout starting.
And so, it finally did.
And, it really kind of saved saved the firm andgot us to the next level.
So and that took place from 2011 to 02/2013.
Hold hold hold hold hold on.
I just wanna make sure that we got the numberright.
Did you say twenty three thousand?
(16:12):
Yeah.
The footprint of the house was about 23,000square feet.
This a house?
Well, more like a villa, as he said.
Call it an exclusive resort.
Yeah.
There you go.
There you go.
But the house was unique because it was madeout of probably 25,000 pieces of individual
stone brought in from Durango, Mexico.
(16:33):
It's the largest, heaviest house we ever built,very modern.
The house incorporated a radiant cooling systemmade up of capillary mats where we ran chilled
water in the plaster ceilings to cool thespace.
So, it was a really unique project.
To my knowledge, it's only one of two with thattechnology in Arizona.
(16:59):
Pretty common in Europe to use this technology.
But really interesting to get to that project.
It was a three year build and we selfperformed, you know, over a million dollars
just in concrete alone.
We got through that project, the market startedto turn and projects started to come in.
So Holy cow.
(17:19):
You Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny you mentioned earlier that,architects are risk adverse and the things that
you were like, hey, well, we're gonna, we'regonna wash some houses.
We're gonna move some stone.
We're going to take on this massive projectwith this radiant, cooling in the plaster that
isn't done here.
That sounds all risky in my eyes.
(17:41):
Why why are y'all so risky?
Like, why why are what what what what made thatculture happen?
We
we do take risk.
I'll be honest.
We probably have taken we've taken more than weshould have over the years.
But I think there's there's something in thearchitecture industry that sometimes architects
don't wanna push to the next level to reallyexplore different technologies, not be worried
(18:06):
about getting sued or not worrying about theliability of everything, which, you know, the
industry is very litigious, you know,architecture and construction.
There's a lot of arbitration and mediation andlitigation in our industry.
And we just felt that we wanted to be a littledifferent, and that we were okay to take risks,
and we were okay to do some R and D, andfrankly, be okay to fail.
(18:27):
You know, in the early years, we failed quite abit, and we learned from it, and we became
really good at not failing on that particularitem again.
And the type of work we do is so unique, suchone offs that even people in town that we go to
try to get them to do concrete or get them todo different things, they just won't touch it.
(18:47):
And so, that's really how we said, okay, we'llcreate a fabrication team and we'll just take
it on ourselves.
So that's kind of how we've dealt with the riskin the past.
And, you know, we've had some huge failuresthat's cost us some money.
So but you move on.
So, I imagine because you're doing one offs,it's really hard to create process around
(19:10):
things that are one offs.
I mean, I'm not saying your entire firm, butthere's a lot of things that your firm has done
that is very much one off.
It's the why it's reason why you even have afabrication shop.
So, a client, as an owner, right, ofpotentially building or wanting to get
something built, how do you set expectationswith stuff that you've, for all intents and
(19:31):
purposes, never done before?
Yeah, it's very hard.
That's what we thought.
It's, I think it for us, it's process.
If we have a challenge in front of us, we'revery analytical in how we think.
You know, we're very design driven.
We're very three d model driven, shop drawingdriven.
And so our, not only are the architects in thefirm and the contractors and the fabricators,
(19:55):
we can all talk and come up with strategies onhow to accomplish something.
And then we can go back to an owner and say,okay, we do not know what this is gonna cost.
We think we're gonna be in this range.
And we'll give them a range with a 15% swag oneach end and say, we feel with the work that's
needed to accomplish this unique one off, it'sgoing to be in this range.
(20:18):
And if they're on board and we move forward,you know, we track that pretty closely on a
monthly basis on where we're at with hours andmaterial costs.
And we usually get close on some things, andthey just have to trust us that we're gonna get
to the result that they're after.
But it's a leap of faith on some of thesecomponents that we do because you're right.
We've not done many of the things that we'vedone.
(20:39):
I have to imagine radiant cooling that you saidtwo houses in Arizona?
Only two?
Hey.
Yeah.
I think I think one got constructed in Tucsonmaybe about eight years after we finished ours.
So at the time, no house in Arizona has this,and you're like, yeah.
Let's take that on.
That's like, this'll be this'll be well, one, Iassume you thought it'd be fun, but this'll be,
(21:01):
business fun, I guess, is is what I'mportraying.
Yeah.
I think the most interesting aspect of that isthat the owner gave us a year and a half of R
and D with the system.
So the property had a guest house where therewas a caretaker living that was ultimately
going to get torn down.
And so we said, Hey, we really need to mockthis system up, do it real time testing.
And it did.
(21:21):
And it really told us what to do, what tochange, how to change the detailing for all of
the supply and return piping, how to puthumidity sensors on the pipes that would send a
signal back to the AC to shut the cooling offif if the moisture content got too high.
Because the risk was that the ceilings wouldstart to sweat.
Not a huge deal in Arizona except for July andAugust when we have our monsoons where normally
(21:47):
we run 18 to 20% humidity.
In monsoon season, we might jump up to 50 to65, and that's where the real challenges
happen.
So, by by doing this r and d and recordingeverything, doing the science, doing a lot of
testing, it really informs how we, you know,how we build, to be honest with you.
(22:07):
That's super cool.
So you actually got so you actually were ableto set some sort of expectation around we need
to spend dollars on r and d to be able to evenimplement this.
Okay.
Yeah.
And the owner was on board.
We presented him with pricing on, you know,getting a system called Becca out of Germany.
He was on board with us buying the capillarymats, you know, getting our plaster guy to do a
(22:28):
mock up in the room.
We did about a thousand square feet, so itreally was a good testing background for us.
And we were also in the same space while thenew house was being built.
So we had long term R and D on it to work outall the bugs.
But you're right, You have to have a an ownerwho's really on board with you for that r and
d.
Well, good for you guys and finding someonethat's willing to spend a few dollars and
(22:51):
understands that it does take a few dollars,you know, to get it get it right, especially if
it's a really one off.
You first off, you are the first the first inin Arizona to do it.
Good for you guys for being able to do that.
When it comes to challenges out of scope, orjust is there something that's out of scope?
(23:15):
Like, do you consider we're not there's no waythat we're gonna do this?
We haven't turned anything down yet.
So Okay.
I would say not.
That says a lot.
We haven't turned anything challenging down.
I think what we have turned down over the yearsis mainly a lot of multifamily.
We have people that come to us to domultifamily, pretty standard, you know, four
(23:36):
stories over a podium.
And we just can't compete from a pricingstandpoint with what they're trying to build it
per square foot.
And so, we really kind of shy away from thoseprojects because unless they're unique and have
a decent budget, we're really not competitivewith some of these companies that could go
throw these, you know, four story apartmentsup, you know, it seems like three months.
(23:57):
So, it gets into volume of heavy things likethat with kind of low budgets, it's not our
strong suit.
Do you find I
was gonna say when it comes
to cheap cheap, fast, and quality, I think weknow which which two sides you are.
Because, quality and fast ain't cheap.
(24:19):
So you're I I see where you're coming from onthat.
Yeah.
And I think for us is, you know, we don't do alot of bidding against other GCs in town.
Most of our work is, you know, by invitations,you know, selected for the project.
We don't do competitive bidding, maybe one ortwo a year, but not often.
And so, of our stuff is all negotiated with ourclients.
(24:41):
We usually run open book, cost plus.
So, we're fully transparent with our dollars.
They see everything.
They see our bids.
And so, we establish a good amount of trustupfront with the numbers.
You know, when you're playing fixed fee or GMP,I know a lot of GCs will bury some costs here
and there to make it work.
That's not our approach.
And it's worked well for, you know, a couple ofdecades.
(25:04):
That was a question I had about, you know,because you're both the design and the build,
like, you know, you have an advantage in thatseat to, you know, be proactive to see like,
we're doing all this work.
We're gonna we're gonna have a good idea oflike what can be built and not built and like
what that's gonna actually take to do that,especially over twenty five years.
Now you have the experience to say, oh yeah,this type of design is gonna take a little bit
(25:26):
longer or a little less depending on what itis.
So that makes sense.
Do you find that when you go from residentialto commercial to adaptive reuse that there's
different challenges that come with each ofthose?
Yeah, I think, you know, the residential sideis very it's emotional.
Know, a lot of people are spending a lot ofhard earned dollars that they've made in their
(25:48):
lives to do a custom, you know, residence.
And so, there's a lot of emotion in theresidential side.
The commercial side, not as much.
It's more business related.
It's more schedule driven.
It's maybe a little more economical from abudget standpoint.
But we try to take the same approach to ourcommercial work as we do our, you know, our
residential work.
So, but there's just different levels of stressthat come with each project type.
(26:12):
And I would say right now, we're fairlybalanced.
About 50% of our work is still customresidential work and the rest is commercial.
And we like the balance of both of those typesof projects.
Got
it.
How does sustainability come into play?
I know that's a big pusher for you personally,but then also the firm.
Yeah.
So I I I've been labeled a a hoarder.
(26:35):
Over the years, I have a hard time throwingaway materials.
And so we've been salvaging materials for ayear.
We upcycle it to different projects.
We're constantly taking stuff from one job tobuild it or repurpose it on another.
I've gotten better at cleaning, purging some ofthat.
(26:58):
So, our warehouse and our storage yard doesn'tlook like Sanford and Son.
But, you know, it's just a love of ours to tryto be creative with products that would
otherwise end up in a landfill.
And so, for the last twenty years, we've beenmaybe more than anyone in town really recycling
materials to use on other projects.
(27:18):
And since we're the designers, we know what wehave in our yard and our fabrication studio.
And so, we can design components into otherprojects.
And we've done that quite a bit.
From a sustainability standpoint, I think thishouse, the large house we built with the
radiant cooling, I wouldn't necessarilyclassify it as a fully sustainable home because
it uses a lot of energy.
(27:39):
It's a big house.
And even though water is super efficient, forcooling costs, it's just a lot of house.
We built a couple of prototypes with a studio,a collab studio, Matt Salinger, and a small
developer named Austin Troutman of ValleyHomes.
And we were really trying to build case studyhomes in the desert, 1,500 to 1,800 square
(28:01):
feet, that would only use a ton, a ton and ahalf of cooling, which is unheard of here in
the Valley.
Usually, you're looking at four to five tons.
And so, started focusing really on thermalenvelopes.
We did a lot of energy modeling.
We did a lot of breathable membranes research.
And we created these two houses about ten yearsago that were really, really sustainable on the
(28:23):
level of a passive house that you would find inEurope.
And we've since been continuing to develop ourbuilding skins, exterior insulation,
breathable, vented metal wall panels.
And we've taken some of that technology to someof our recent commercial buildings at the
Desert Botanical Gardens.
We just year by year, we learn new technologiesand start implementing them into our projects.
(28:47):
And I think as we continue to do that, thebuildings just perform much better than what's
being, what else is being built in the, atleast in the valley here in Phoenix.
Where did that, come from?
Where did the sustainability push come from?
Is that just part of the DNA of you or is thatinitiative?
Well, our firm's always been interested insustainability.
(29:07):
Think in twenty fourteen, one hundred eightycollaborated with CoLab Studio, a Tempe
architecture company.
And we were awarded together a joint venture todesign the new horticultural center at the
Desert Botanical Garden.
And that project, we integrated an independent,you know, integrative design process based on
(29:35):
Are you guys familiar with the Living BuildingChallenge?
Okay.
So, you know, the International Living FuturesInstitute created this Living Building
Challenge, and there's petals that you try toachieve in the design.
And so, from the start, we had six programmingworkshops where we talked about biomimicry.
We talked about sustainability.
We talked about all the touchstones that werereally important to the garden.
(29:59):
The plants always became the number onetouchstone.
They were building everything for the plants.
And so, by having everyone involved from, youknow, from the botanists to the maintenance
people to the scientists to the propagators toeveryone that worked in the garden had a say in
this design.
And it became a very, very sustainable model.
(30:19):
We've been building out there for ten years onthis master plan.
We just completed the last two buildings ofphase two, and we have two more buildings to go
in phase three.
And we basically followed those principles ofsustainability all the way through.
And it's truly a beautiful campus.
So, it's not just one person doing this.
It's everyone being bought into how importantsustainability is, not just from the architect
(30:44):
team and the contracting team, but also fromthe client.
Is this invite only or or can anyone apply?
For?
Well, I mean, ultimately, the part be part ofthe master plan, but the sustainability pro you
know, essentially, the project itself, isn'tthat isn't that an is that an invite only, or
can anyone sort of
Yeah.
We we got selected originally just to be thearchitects.
(31:05):
And after about six months of design, weconvinced them that we were the right team to
actually build it.
So phase one started in 2000 and we've been theGC and the architects with with CoLab Studio
for that whole duration.
Okay.
Oh, okay.
Really cool.
Yeah.
And we, when we got the job, we we didn't goin.
We didn't start as a design build.
We got a Our commission was just to do themaster planning.
(31:29):
And then before we entered into thearchitectural drawing contract, we were able to
really get a full design build contract outthere.
So, if you guys are familiar with the AIAdesign build contract, it's a two part contract
that we've implemented on all of theirprojects.
Okay.
I want to go back since we're talking aboutAIA, a little bit of the volunteers.
(31:53):
You told us a story that really helped sort ofcommunicate a little bit of volunteering, as
soon as panels.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Say say that again for the
So you talked about volunteering, and you had aconcrete panel story.
Oh, yeah.
I think that would really sum up kind of or puttogether, like how volunteering and how sort of
(32:20):
the ideology that you have kind of comes tofruition.
Could you talk a little bit about that?
I don't wanna give away too much because Ithink the story is incredible.
Yeah.
So we have a relationship with, a person by thename of Allison King.
She's the founder of of Modern Phoenix, and sheis a historian, an archivist, and everything
(32:40):
knowing about mid century architecture in thevalley.
She called me one day and said, James, you haveto come out and look at this building.
The owners are getting rid of about 125 midcentury precast concrete panels, and they're
going to put them in the landfill.
You need to take a look at that.
So, drove out to the site one day, met with theowner, which was Arizona Public Service.
(33:04):
They're our largest utility company in thevalley.
And they were so beautiful, I said, We have totake these.
And so, we made an arrangement that they wouldcrane these panels off the building.
We would provide the transportation and wewould basically haul off all of these panels.
Keep in mind, we we took 95 panels, eachweighing 3,800 pounds apiece, five feet wide by
(33:30):
17 feet tall.
So, was this was our biggest hoarding effort todate.
People thought I was crazy to move forward withthis, but I got buy in from my partners and we
took all of these panels to a project we wereworking on.
We convinced our client, since we were doing ayear build forum, where we actually renovated
(33:53):
Adaptive Reuse a dollar store into a behavioralhealth clinic, that we would give her 18 free
panels if she allowed us to store all the restof them for a year.
And so we did that and we transformed thisdollar store with these beautiful panels.
And we've since designed four or five projectswith these panels, some coming soon.
(34:14):
So it's it's our biggest snatch and grab todate.
Yeah.
That's a £361,000 hoard, so you're aware.
I don't know if you've done the math on that.
Yeah.
Still a lot of concrete.
It's it's our biggest to date.
I like that you
say to date because that implies that therewill be bigger ones in the future.
(34:36):
Well, there there there was a recent one.
Paradise Valley is a kind of a suburb justbetween Phoenix and Scottsdale, and they had a
Lutheran, a sentient Lutheran maybe church.
And they had a 150 foot spire, beautiful midcentury spire.
And the church got bought by a developer, andthey were gonna tear the church down and build
(34:59):
maybe eight custom homes.
And so, of course, in all of our wherewithal,it was designed by an apprentice of Frank Lloyd
Wright.
So, my partner being on the board wasapproached to see if 180 would be interested in
cutting it into five pieces and salvaging it totake it off the building.
And of course, we said yes, because that's whatwe do.
(35:21):
And so now we're in the process of the town ofPeavey is working on funding to re erect it at
their capital complex.
Yeah.
So saving architectural history is superimportant for us.
So because when you first talked to me aboutthese precast, you know, concrete, what I
imagined were slabs, I was thinking warehousesiding slabs.
(35:43):
You know, this is like sort of the concretewalls that you wreck when, you know, a
warehouse is brought up.
Can you give a little bit more description ordetail around because it this it gives it no
justice as to what these things actually looklike because they're quite amazing.
Yeah.
So the panels, very intricate, had a pattern.
It was really a a flame.
(36:04):
So the bottom of the concrete panels lookedlike a flame and the flame went up to the top
of the panels.
And so there are probably 50 to 60 holes in it.
So, the panels are super porous and they had alight aggregate finish to it on the surface.
And so, super intricate design and thefabrication of it was so amazing that the
(36:27):
quality seventy five years later was stillperfectly intact.
The I was told I didn't see a price or I wastold that they tried to see what it would be to
replicate them.
And I think the price was over $3,000,000 torecast them today.
So Woah.
That kind
of tells you just how intricate these theseare.
And concrete's cheap for all intents andpurposes?
(36:50):
Yeah.
Well, these are really things of beauty, andand we just don't see that level of precast
concrete anymore.
I think, you know, the fifties, sixties, andeven seventies just were beautiful handcrafted,
you know, panels.
And today you just see the tilt up and it's,you know, they might put a reveal or a pattern
in it, but not very much.
This will reminds me of Heather Lennon.
(37:11):
Right?
Because she does a lot of adaptive reuse.
I guess the question is is why is saving thehistory so important to you in the firm?
Yeah.
So I've I've always loved historicarchitecture.
You know, moving out to Phoenix, Phoenix is avery young place.
You know, being from South Louisiana, you justyou had these old buildings.
(37:33):
They're brick and they're wood, and you justdon't have a lot of history in Phoenix.
Our office happens to be built in '46 withbowstring trusses, brick facades, and you just
don't have a lot of that.
And so, really try to salvage a lot of what wasbuilt here in the 50s and 60s, because that's
when really the mid century was reallydesigning clean, modern architecture for the
(37:57):
desert.
And then my work on the foundation, we have acommittee at the Arizona Architecture
Foundation called the Archives Committee.
For ten years, our committee has been salvagingoriginal hand drawings pre 1985.
And to date, we've salvaged 20 collectionsmaybe, And we have over 40,000 original
(38:21):
drawings from architects dating all the wayback to 1900.
So, our committee is vibrant.
They're getting a collection or two every yearfrom architects.
And we're really preserving that Arizonalegacy, which is important.
Yeah.
No.
I I completely agree.
Originally from Chicago and Will lives inChicago area right now, there is a massive
(38:43):
difference in regards to Phoenix compared to anolder city where it's just the architecture.
Even as someone who is not an architect, it'sjust very eyeing at times to just look around
and see the things that were built and created.
You know, designed and then built and created.
Just it's very impressive.
So I think I there's a diff I applaud you.
(39:04):
I think there's a different level ofpreservation that comes from a city like
Chicago with so much history, and they place alarger, you know, focus on that.
Phoenix is so new, developers that they'll comein and wipe out a building in a day and not
even think about it.
And I think there's a lot of people in town,the AIA is involved.
(39:28):
They have made strides in preserving somehistoric properties here, but it's really tough
to do, you know, because a lot of a lot oftimes the developers went out and you go fight
with the city council and property rights winsometimes.
And it's just unfortunate.
We have a famous architect by the name of AlBeadle who built some of the most incredible
mid century projects here in the Phoenix andScottsdale area.
(39:51):
And we've been in a big battle on one ofhistoric homes that had become derelict and an
owner wanted to tear it down and build a newcustom McMansion.
And we've been in that battle for over a yearor so.
Wow.
I think I want to switch for a quick secondbecause we talked a whole bunch about people
and process.
I want talk a little bit about technologybecause there's no set way to do things.
(40:15):
And I found some of the answers that you gaveus before interesting.
So do you use a construction managementsoftware or what do you use for construction
management?
So, we don't.
We don't use a dedicated Procore or one ofthose type of systems.
(40:38):
We basically use Excel that has been juiced upsubstantially over the last two decades to meet
kind of how we price things out.
We don't have a ton of data that we can rely onfrom the industry as far as means and cost per
square foot, because everything we do is sounique.
And so that information is not really useful tous.
(40:59):
And so we kind of create all of our stuff inhouse.
I mean, far as the design software, we mix aton of different applications for that and for
fabrications.
Super interesting.
And just just for, like, the other technologiesthat you use, what do you guys use?
Because you have a combination of, right, yourdesign build and fabrication.
(41:20):
So you kinda have to intermix between allthose.
Can you talk a little bit about what you usethere and why?
Yeah.
So, we'll start a project if it's, let's say,it's a renovation or adaptive reuse, we'll do a
Matterport scan.
And from that scan, which is incredibletechnology that we've been implementing for the
last year and a half, We'll take that into athree d model to start the design work.
(41:41):
Usually we do that in Rhino as a software ofchoice till we get to schematic design.
Once we get kind of buy in off a schematic,then we'll transfer it into Revit, where we're
doing all of our construction documents inRevit.
We go to construction.
We still have the Rhino model.
We have the Revit model in the field.
The guys have access to the computer model.
(42:02):
And then if we were doing fabrication oncomponents, we actually take it back into
Rhino.
And the guys in our shop developed a specialsoftware that basically allows our Rhino model
to create a parts list.
And so we're doing fabrication, you know, fromthat model directly.
So sometimes we don't even print drawings whenwe fabricate.
We're going straight from the Rhino model.
(42:24):
We either cut it in house on our CNC machinesor we'll send it out for plasma cutting or
water jet cutting, and we'll get all theseparts back to our shop.
So, it's kind of, you know, really kind ofdigitally modeled.
The guys who run our shop, Evan and Mikhail,were trained at SCI Arc in Los Angeles, and
they have a huge background in complexparametric modeling.
(42:47):
And that alone has helped our fab team reallykind of push boundaries where typical steel
shops can't just don't get into.
So a whole bunch of different technologies wethrow at.
I mean, super cool.
You know what, Justin?
I think it's that time.
You got you got anything else for James?
Just our last question.
(43:09):
Our our question that we love to ask all of ourguests.
So, James, if you could go back twenty yearsand give yourself a little bit of advice, what
would that be?
What would 02/2005, James, learn from 02/2025,James?
I would say start off with a good lawyer.
(43:29):
Get a good accountant and get a good insurancebroker.
Because if you have those three lined up early,you will learn a lot and your business will
will appreciate it in the first three years.
So that that's my advice.
And take risk.
You'll get through it.
Work hard.
Keep the quality as good as you can get it.
(43:52):
And if you do that, you'll get more work.
So what one, I love both sides of that, but Ilove the tacticalness of just here, do these
three things, and you're you get these threepeople, and you're gonna be in a way better
place.
I love that.
I love the tacticality it.
Yes.
That's awesome.
This has been a ton of fun.
We're gonna put all your social and all thatfun jazz into the the show notes.
(44:15):
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
So 180degreesinc.com.
That's www.180degreesinc.com.
That's our website.
And, you can reach us all from there.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell thepeople before we say our goodbyes?
No, just keep, keep doing great architecture.
(44:37):
Keep doing great architecture.
Keep taking risks and keep building andconserving all of Phoenix.
Yeah.
Certainly.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Listeners, this has been great.
I hope you had as much fun as we did today.
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
I
see you guys.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening to building scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
(45:01):
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
(45:26):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
We do take risk.
(00:01):
I'll be honest.
We probably have taken we've taken more than weshould have over the years.
But I think there's there's something in thearchitecture industry that sometimes architects
don't wanna push to the next level to reallyexplore different technologies, not be worried
about getting sued or not worrying about theliability of everything, which the industry is
(00:21):
very litigious.
Architecture and construction, there's a lot ofarbitration and mediation and litigation in our
industry.
And we just felt that we wanted to be a littledifferent, and that we were okay to take risks,
and we were okay to do some R and D, andfrankly, be okay to fail.
You know, in the early years, we failed quite abit, and we learned from it, and we became
(00:44):
really good at not failing on that particularitem again.
And the type of work we do is so unique, suchone offs that even people in town that we go to
try to get them to do concrete or get them todo different things, they just won't touch it.
So that's really how we'd said, okay.
We'll create a fabrication team, and we'll justtake it on ourselves.
So that's kind of how we've dealt with the riskin the past.
(01:10):
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthost.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(01:34):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AAC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:57):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Today's guest is James Tra.
James is award winning architect, builder, andfounding principal of a hundred and eighty
(02:21):
Degrees Inc, a design and build firm based inPhoenix, Arizona.
Known for its bold modern designs and hands onapproach, James Blends architecture and
construction to create spaces that arefunctional as they are striking.
His firm specializes in custom residential,commercial, and adaptive reuse projects, all
executed with a deep commitment to designintegrity and craftsmanship.
(02:43):
James' work has been featured in numerousnational and international publications and has
received recognition from the AIA and other topindustry organizations.
With a passion for detail and a reputation forfearless creativity, James is redefining the
relationship between designer, builder, andclient.
We're excited to hear from James about hisdesign build philosophy, creative process, and
(03:07):
what it takes to execute truly visionary workin the built environment.
And with all that said, James, welcome to theshow.
Thank you, Justin.
Thank you, Will.
Appreciate you guys having me on.
Yeah.
We're excited.
This is a long time in the making.
We we we spoke a long time ago, me and you,James, and and now we're getting around to
this, which is a lot of fun.
Yeah.
Let's let's talk about design Absolutely.
(03:28):
It's a passion of ours.
Yeah.
For sure, which we're gonna ask a ton aboutthat.
So tell us a little bit about your yourupbringing though.
What what got you into architecture and andthen design build eventually?
Yeah.
So grew up in South Louisiana.
Always had an interest in building.
Went to college at Louisiana State in BatonRouge.
Graduated in architecture and moved out Westsoon after graduation.
(03:50):
In 'ninety three, there wasn't a ton ofemployment opportunities in the South or the
Southeast.
And so we headed west for an adventure.
Our thesis project in college was actually inChaco Canyon, New Mexico.
So, we spent several weeks out in theSouthwest, kind of fell in love with it and
kind of set up roots and been in the valleysince 'ninety three.
(04:12):
So, that's the origins of me getting out to thedesert.
That's cool.
What about the origins of 01/1980?
Yeah.
So, I was a part owner of an architectural firmthat I had started with when I moved here.
Was a principal and owner for fourteen years.
And about 02/2001, we were fairly frustratedwith the type of construction we were getting
(04:35):
on our design projects.
And we just thought we could do a better job bybuilding it ourselves.
So, went out and got a contractor's license andkind of jumped into the building aspect of it
almost twenty five years ago.
So, that was the result.
I was just frustrated with quality and we saidwe could jump into this.
And if we cared a little more and took time andpatience, that we could create something unique
(04:59):
in the building environment.
So, that kind of what started 01/1980.
Got it.
So, did you find that construction was easypeasy and no problems and you were able to just
do things better right off the bat?
No, not at all.
Not at all, Justin.
We realized early on that construction is verydifficult to the level that we wanted to build
(05:20):
or want to build or do build.
And it took a great amount of patience to sortthrough good subcontractors, vetting tradesmen,
craftsmen.
It took about three years, and I could honestlysay that, you know, financially we did not do
very well those first three years until we gotour systems in place.
Because we were coming from the other side, wewere thinking all about architecture and not
(05:43):
about efficiency in construction, a lot ofmeans and methods.
But those first three years were a goodlearning curve, enough for us to get over that
hump early design build company and go to thenext level.
So, good bumps along the way.
So, something that's really interesting aboutyou guys is you're not just your typical design
(06:04):
build.
You actually have a different arm that I wouldcall manufacturing, but you call it something
else.
Can you talk to us a little bit about what youcreated or why you created it as part of this
whole design build concept?
Yeah.
So, I think a lot of people in the industrylabel their firms as design build, but most of
(06:25):
those are contractor driven, where they hireoutside architects to come in and do design
work.
We are truly an architect led design buildcompany.
We are made up of architects.
We train our architects to go out and build.
So we're really kind of unique in the marketthat we're architects first.
We've trained our architects to go out and beproject managers, field superintendents.
(06:48):
But about fifteen years ago, we startedfabricating.
Not true manufacturing, but really doing custompieces where really unique architectural
concrete, we would take on ourselves decorativesteels, metal, wood, furniture.
And so, we kind of brought that part into thefirm.
And so, now we can truly just do architecturefor clients.
(07:09):
We can do architecture and construction, or wecan do architecture, construction, and
fabrication.
So, we can wear many hats on a particular job.
We feel it's good for us because we could takefewer projects and still gain revenue share
because we're not just getting, you know, a 10%fee for architecture.
We can get a fee for architecture,construction.
(07:30):
We can get a fee for fabrication.
And so that's been really advantageous for ourbusiness model, really.
That's really cool.
So architecture led, do you find that there'slots of architects that want to get into
construction?
For about a year.
And then they realize, woah, wait a minute.
(07:52):
Yeah.
We we see a lot of architects, I would say ingeneral, you know, I've been an architect for
thirty years.
I think a lot of architects are risk adverse,and construction, it's very risky.
You have the ability to lose, you know, quite abit of money if things go wrong.
But I've seen a lot of architects give it ashot for a couple of years, and a lot of them,
you know, move move forward with it and do verywell.
(08:14):
A lot of them really get burned out after acouple of years because it is so time consuming
and the pace is faster.
It's just pretty exhausting to be in that fastpace all the time.
Yeah, would I would feel that that would be,you know, we we talk about like task switching.
So it's just simple task switching.
I I can't imagine architecting, constructing,like switching the brain waves there because
(08:37):
they they are to your point are very differenthow you're using your brain in those scenarios.
Yeah.
And I think for us, it's really unique is thatall of our all of the people that are in the
field for us, you know, they have anarchitectural background, architectural degree.
Many of them are licensed.
So when we're building, whether we're buildingfor ourselves or for other architects, because
(08:58):
we do collaborate with outside architects, wedon't just build our own work.
We're constantly designing in the field.
We're constantly detailing things make itbetter.
Whereas a traditional architect contractorrelationship, you just lose the time and
efficiency because you're always going back tothat architect and getting details.
We have the ability with our team to reallymake on the fly good decision detailing, which
(09:23):
a lot of firms don't have that ability.
And so that gives us a great advantage onexecuting a higher quality construction.
That's awesome.
So what is the breakdown of the firm?
Obviously, you said everybody's kind ofarchitect, but like, I have to imagine you,
hey, you're part of our only architecture team.
You're more in the construction side.
There's a fabrication side as well.
What does that breakdown look like?
(09:44):
Yeah.
So we're actually pretty even across theboards.
Our construction, we're 32 people total.
We've steadily grown over the last decade, youknow, at a slow manageable pace.
The architecture team is around 10 people.
The construction team's around 10 people, andthe fabrication team's around 10 people, and
we've got some admin staff.
So it's a pretty fluid breakdown.
And over the last couple of years, we've beentrying to average out our revenue so that the
(10:10):
architecture, the construction, and thefabrication side all bring in equal amounts of
money.
So, it's been really steady over the lastseveral years to get to that goal.
So, you know, you talked about revenues beingtrying to get revenues to be steady.
How let's go back a second
to Yeah.
When you first started.
Right?
How are you getting new business?
(10:30):
Because getting a company off the ground,right, you decided, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna go
out on my own.
It's not so easy if you've got no one and noone knows about you.
Now, got a new name.
How did how did you start and how what are youwhat are you guys doing today?
Yeah.
So that's a great question.
So I've always been involved in the AIA, whichis the American Institute of Architects.
(10:54):
We've been really active in the community.
So we've established a good relationship witharchitects and contractors, you know, before we
created 01/1980.
Our first project was actually a customresidential house for a client who specialized
in window systems, sliding doors, pivot doors.
And he basically allowed us to really kind ofgo all out with his product.
(11:14):
And so, we designed a really interesting twostory glass box with all kinds of different
windows.
After some people started to see what we weredoing, there became interest in building for
other architects where people were asking us tobuild their own design projects.
And so, our first several projects had to befor architects themselves building their own
homes.
And so, we never intended to create the companyto build for other people.
(11:38):
We only wanted to build for ourselves and ourown designs.
But we we merged that thought fairly early inthe company.
And so, we've been building for otherarchitects in town that do great work.
And so, that was a diversification.
And from there, it's really just do really goodwork and word will get around that we're a
(11:58):
quality outfit.
And so we don't do a ton of marketing per se,but we have enough connections in the valley
and our referrals have really got us all thework over these two decades.
So I know sort of volunteering philanthropy islike a piece that of sort of the life cycle of
business growth.
Now, is a topic that I find fascinating becausethere's not necessarily a direct intent, but
(12:25):
can you talk about how this actually works?
Sort of it's almost to think about this and go,well, you know, if I'm gonna spend the time
here, right, I'd like to see some return.
Right?
But how does that actually work?
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Cause I know it's
a big piece of how you guys work.
Yeah.
So it's, it's hard to quantify what comes fromthose efforts.
(12:47):
Right?
Think, think building relationships in theindustry over several decades.
And I mean, really building relationships,being part of committees, being part of boards,
being part of cultural institutions.
There's a real outreach that you start to meeta lot of people.
And over time, referrals come to you in strangeways.
(13:07):
And then just happens through that continualeffort.
Currently, I'm the president of the ArizonaArchitecture Foundation, which is a nonprofit
that really advocates for architects in Arizonaand our legacy as architects.
My partner, Johnny Anderson, he's on the he's atrustee on the board for the Frank Lloyd Wright
Foundation.
My other partner, Troy Vincent, you know, he'sa member of the Men's Art Council for Phoenix
(13:32):
Art Museum.
So, this continual connection to people inindustry, you know, who come after architecture
that we do is just a constant in our firm.
So, we have people in the firm that teach atASU.
And so, we just get out there and we just meeta lot of people and make as many connections as
we can.
When we talked before, you had mentioned how in02/2008, there was a shrinking or, you know, a
(13:58):
contraction to the firm.
What did the February essentially teach you?
What came out of that?
What lessons did you learn maybe as a business,but also just maybe as a person?
It it teaches humility for sure.
And sometimes you just have to work hard to,you know, to get out of a situation.
(14:18):
I appreciate you bringing that up.
When we were part of the larger firm of 42, wehad a split where 180 took 13 employees in
2,007.
And we had plenty of work on the books,probably over $10,000,000 in design and
construction.
2008 happened and everything tanks.
We lost a good portion of our staff.
(14:40):
We went down to five people.
And basically our diversity and the fact thatwe could do architecture and construction
helped us get through those rough times.
Because a lot of architects, you know, friendsthat I had, they were frankly just going out of
business because there was no work.
But we were able to keep some small projectsgoing and physically do the work ourselves.
So we would go build gabion baskets andretaining walls, we'd sit there and stack rocks
(15:05):
and things, anything to make payroll.
I think our most interesting thing was that fortwo weeks, we actually cleaned the houses of
a model home out in
a development that had gone bankrupt.
So, you know, never thinking I would design aproduction home, now I'm cleaning the windows
of a production home in the middle of thedesert that's bankrupt.
(15:26):
And, five of us did that for two weeks to makepayroll.
And we called ourselves the Squeegee Ninjas.
And those are humiliating times, but, the hardwork got us through to keep the brand going.
Our biggest project came from a house we did inkind of a small, a small villa, really.
It was a 23,000 square foot footprint housemade of completely stone.
(15:50):
We just said, okay, if we can start that house,we will survive.
And the house kept going on and going onwithout starting.
And so, it finally did.
And, it really kind of saved saved the firm andgot us to the next level.
So and that took place from 2011 to 02/2013.
Hold hold hold hold hold on.
I just wanna make sure that we got the numberright.
Did you say twenty three thousand?
(16:12):
Yeah.
The footprint of the house was about 23,000square feet.
This a house?
Well, more like a villa, as he said.
Call it an exclusive resort.
Yeah.
There you go.
There you go.
But the house was unique because it was madeout of probably 25,000 pieces of individual
stone brought in from Durango, Mexico.
(16:33):
It's the largest, heaviest house we ever built,very modern.
The house incorporated a radiant cooling systemmade up of capillary mats where we ran chilled
water in the plaster ceilings to cool thespace.
So, it was a really unique project.
To my knowledge, it's only one of two with thattechnology in Arizona.
(16:59):
Pretty common in Europe to use this technology.
But really interesting to get to that project.
It was a three year build and we selfperformed, you know, over a million dollars
just in concrete alone.
We got through that project, the market startedto turn and projects started to come in.
So Holy cow.
(17:19):
You Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny you mentioned earlier that,architects are risk adverse and the things that
you were like, hey, well, we're gonna, we'regonna wash some houses.
We're gonna move some stone.
We're going to take on this massive projectwith this radiant, cooling in the plaster that
isn't done here.
That sounds all risky in my eyes.
(17:41):
Why why are y'all so risky?
Like, why why are what what what what made thatculture happen?
We
we do take risk.
I'll be honest.
We probably have taken we've taken more than weshould have over the years.
But I think there's there's something in thearchitecture industry that sometimes architects
don't wanna push to the next level to reallyexplore different technologies, not be worried
(18:06):
about getting sued or not worrying about theliability of everything, which, you know, the
industry is very litigious, you know,architecture and construction.
There's a lot of arbitration and mediation andlitigation in our industry.
And we just felt that we wanted to be a littledifferent, and that we were okay to take risks,
and we were okay to do some R and D, andfrankly, be okay to fail.
(18:27):
You know, in the early years, we failed quite abit, and we learned from it, and we became
really good at not failing on that particularitem again.
And the type of work we do is so unique, suchone offs that even people in town that we go to
try to get them to do concrete or get them todo different things, they just won't touch it.
(18:47):
And so, that's really how we said, okay, we'llcreate a fabrication team and we'll just take
it on ourselves.
So that's kind of how we've dealt with the riskin the past.
And, you know, we've had some huge failuresthat's cost us some money.
So but you move on.
So, I imagine because you're doing one offs,it's really hard to create process around
(19:10):
things that are one offs.
I mean, I'm not saying your entire firm, butthere's a lot of things that your firm has done
that is very much one off.
It's the why it's reason why you even have afabrication shop.
So, a client, as an owner, right, ofpotentially building or wanting to get
something built, how do you set expectationswith stuff that you've, for all intents and
(19:31):
purposes, never done before?
Yeah, it's very hard.
That's what we thought.
It's, I think it for us, it's process.
If we have a challenge in front of us, we'revery analytical in how we think.
You know, we're very design driven.
We're very three d model driven, shop drawingdriven.
And so our, not only are the architects in thefirm and the contractors and the fabricators,
(19:55):
we can all talk and come up with strategies onhow to accomplish something.
And then we can go back to an owner and say,okay, we do not know what this is gonna cost.
We think we're gonna be in this range.
And we'll give them a range with a 15% swag oneach end and say, we feel with the work that's
needed to accomplish this unique one off, it'sgoing to be in this range.
(20:18):
And if they're on board and we move forward,you know, we track that pretty closely on a
monthly basis on where we're at with hours andmaterial costs.
And we usually get close on some things, andthey just have to trust us that we're gonna get
to the result that they're after.
But it's a leap of faith on some of thesecomponents that we do because you're right.
We've not done many of the things that we'vedone.
(20:39):
I have to imagine radiant cooling that you saidtwo houses in Arizona?
Only two?
Hey.
Yeah.
I think I think one got constructed in Tucsonmaybe about eight years after we finished ours.
So at the time, no house in Arizona has this,and you're like, yeah.
Let's take that on.
That's like, this'll be this'll be well, one, Iassume you thought it'd be fun, but this'll be,
(21:01):
business fun, I guess, is is what I'mportraying.
Yeah.
I think the most interesting aspect of that isthat the owner gave us a year and a half of R
and D with the system.
So the property had a guest house where therewas a caretaker living that was ultimately
going to get torn down.
And so we said, Hey, we really need to mockthis system up, do it real time testing.
And it did.
(21:21):
And it really told us what to do, what tochange, how to change the detailing for all of
the supply and return piping, how to puthumidity sensors on the pipes that would send a
signal back to the AC to shut the cooling offif if the moisture content got too high.
Because the risk was that the ceilings wouldstart to sweat.
Not a huge deal in Arizona except for July andAugust when we have our monsoons where normally
(21:47):
we run 18 to 20% humidity.
In monsoon season, we might jump up to 50 to65, and that's where the real challenges
happen.
So, by by doing this r and d and recordingeverything, doing the science, doing a lot of
testing, it really informs how we, you know,how we build, to be honest with you.
(22:07):
That's super cool.
So you actually got so you actually were ableto set some sort of expectation around we need
to spend dollars on r and d to be able to evenimplement this.
Okay.
Yeah.
And the owner was on board.
We presented him with pricing on, you know,getting a system called Becca out of Germany.
He was on board with us buying the capillarymats, you know, getting our plaster guy to do a
(22:28):
mock up in the room.
We did about a thousand square feet, so itreally was a good testing background for us.
And we were also in the same space while thenew house was being built.
So we had long term R and D on it to work outall the bugs.
But you're right, You have to have a an ownerwho's really on board with you for that r and
d.
Well, good for you guys and finding someonethat's willing to spend a few dollars and
(22:51):
understands that it does take a few dollars,you know, to get it get it right, especially if
it's a really one off.
You first off, you are the first the first inin Arizona to do it.
Good for you guys for being able to do that.
When it comes to challenges out of scope, orjust is there something that's out of scope?
(23:15):
Like, do you consider we're not there's no waythat we're gonna do this?
We haven't turned anything down yet.
So Okay.
I would say not.
That says a lot.
We haven't turned anything challenging down.
I think what we have turned down over the yearsis mainly a lot of multifamily.
We have people that come to us to domultifamily, pretty standard, you know, four
(23:36):
stories over a podium.
And we just can't compete from a pricingstandpoint with what they're trying to build it
per square foot.
And so, we really kind of shy away from thoseprojects because unless they're unique and have
a decent budget, we're really not competitivewith some of these companies that could go
throw these, you know, four story apartmentsup, you know, it seems like three months.
(23:57):
So, it gets into volume of heavy things likethat with kind of low budgets, it's not our
strong suit.
Do you find I
was gonna say when it comes
to cheap cheap, fast, and quality, I think weknow which which two sides you are.
Because, quality and fast ain't cheap.
(24:19):
So you're I I see where you're coming from onthat.
Yeah.
And I think for us is, you know, we don't do alot of bidding against other GCs in town.
Most of our work is, you know, by invitations,you know, selected for the project.
We don't do competitive bidding, maybe one ortwo a year, but not often.
And so, of our stuff is all negotiated with ourclients.
(24:41):
We usually run open book, cost plus.
So, we're fully transparent with our dollars.
They see everything.
They see our bids.
And so, we establish a good amount of trustupfront with the numbers.
You know, when you're playing fixed fee or GMP,I know a lot of GCs will bury some costs here
and there to make it work.
That's not our approach.
And it's worked well for, you know, a couple ofdecades.
(25:04):
That was a question I had about, you know,because you're both the design and the build,
like, you know, you have an advantage in thatseat to, you know, be proactive to see like,
we're doing all this work.
We're gonna we're gonna have a good idea oflike what can be built and not built and like
what that's gonna actually take to do that,especially over twenty five years.
Now you have the experience to say, oh yeah,this type of design is gonna take a little bit
(25:26):
longer or a little less depending on what itis.
So that makes sense.
Do you find that when you go from residentialto commercial to adaptive reuse that there's
different challenges that come with each ofthose?
Yeah, I think, you know, the residential sideis very it's emotional.
Know, a lot of people are spending a lot ofhard earned dollars that they've made in their
(25:48):
lives to do a custom, you know, residence.
And so, there's a lot of emotion in theresidential side.
The commercial side, not as much.
It's more business related.
It's more schedule driven.
It's maybe a little more economical from abudget standpoint.
But we try to take the same approach to ourcommercial work as we do our, you know, our
residential work.
So, but there's just different levels of stressthat come with each project type.
(26:12):
And I would say right now, we're fairlybalanced.
About 50% of our work is still customresidential work and the rest is commercial.
And we like the balance of both of those typesof projects.
Got
it.
How does sustainability come into play?
I know that's a big pusher for you personally,but then also the firm.
Yeah.
So I I I've been labeled a a hoarder.
(26:35):
Over the years, I have a hard time throwingaway materials.
And so we've been salvaging materials for ayear.
We upcycle it to different projects.
We're constantly taking stuff from one job tobuild it or repurpose it on another.
I've gotten better at cleaning, purging some ofthat.
(26:58):
So, our warehouse and our storage yard doesn'tlook like Sanford and Son.
But, you know, it's just a love of ours to tryto be creative with products that would
otherwise end up in a landfill.
And so, for the last twenty years, we've beenmaybe more than anyone in town really recycling
materials to use on other projects.
(27:18):
And since we're the designers, we know what wehave in our yard and our fabrication studio.
And so, we can design components into otherprojects.
And we've done that quite a bit.
From a sustainability standpoint, I think thishouse, the large house we built with the
radiant cooling, I wouldn't necessarilyclassify it as a fully sustainable home because
it uses a lot of energy.
(27:39):
It's a big house.
And even though water is super efficient, forcooling costs, it's just a lot of house.
We built a couple of prototypes with a studio,a collab studio, Matt Salinger, and a small
developer named Austin Troutman of ValleyHomes.
And we were really trying to build case studyhomes in the desert, 1,500 to 1,800 square
(28:01):
feet, that would only use a ton, a ton and ahalf of cooling, which is unheard of here in
the Valley.
Usually, you're looking at four to five tons.
And so, started focusing really on thermalenvelopes.
We did a lot of energy modeling.
We did a lot of breathable membranes research.
And we created these two houses about ten yearsago that were really, really sustainable on the
(28:23):
level of a passive house that you would find inEurope.
And we've since been continuing to develop ourbuilding skins, exterior insulation,
breathable, vented metal wall panels.
And we've taken some of that technology to someof our recent commercial buildings at the
Desert Botanical Gardens.
We just year by year, we learn new technologiesand start implementing them into our projects.
(28:47):
And I think as we continue to do that, thebuildings just perform much better than what's
being, what else is being built in the, atleast in the valley here in Phoenix.
Where did that, come from?
Where did the sustainability push come from?
Is that just part of the DNA of you or is thatinitiative?
Well, our firm's always been interested insustainability.
(29:07):
Think in twenty fourteen, one hundred eightycollaborated with CoLab Studio, a Tempe
architecture company.
And we were awarded together a joint venture todesign the new horticultural center at the
Desert Botanical Garden.
And that project, we integrated an independent,you know, integrative design process based on
(29:35):
Are you guys familiar with the Living BuildingChallenge?
Okay.
So, you know, the International Living FuturesInstitute created this Living Building
Challenge, and there's petals that you try toachieve in the design.
And so, from the start, we had six programmingworkshops where we talked about biomimicry.
We talked about sustainability.
We talked about all the touchstones that werereally important to the garden.
(29:59):
The plants always became the number onetouchstone.
They were building everything for the plants.
And so, by having everyone involved from, youknow, from the botanists to the maintenance
people to the scientists to the propagators toeveryone that worked in the garden had a say in
this design.
And it became a very, very sustainable model.
(30:19):
We've been building out there for ten years onthis master plan.
We just completed the last two buildings ofphase two, and we have two more buildings to go
in phase three.
And we basically followed those principles ofsustainability all the way through.
And it's truly a beautiful campus.
So, it's not just one person doing this.
It's everyone being bought into how importantsustainability is, not just from the architect
(30:44):
team and the contracting team, but also fromthe client.
Is this invite only or or can anyone apply?
For?
Well, I mean, ultimately, the part be part ofthe master plan, but the sustainability pro you
know, essentially, the project itself, isn'tthat isn't that an is that an invite only, or
can anyone sort of
Yeah.
We we got selected originally just to be thearchitects.
(31:05):
And after about six months of design, weconvinced them that we were the right team to
actually build it.
So phase one started in 2000 and we've been theGC and the architects with with CoLab Studio
for that whole duration.
Okay.
Oh, okay.
Really cool.
Yeah.
And we, when we got the job, we we didn't goin.
We didn't start as a design build.
We got a Our commission was just to do themaster planning.
(31:29):
And then before we entered into thearchitectural drawing contract, we were able to
really get a full design build contract outthere.
So, if you guys are familiar with the AIAdesign build contract, it's a two part contract
that we've implemented on all of theirprojects.
Okay.
I want to go back since we're talking aboutAIA, a little bit of the volunteers.
(31:53):
You told us a story that really helped sort ofcommunicate a little bit of volunteering, as
soon as panels.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Say say that again for the
So you talked about volunteering, and you had aconcrete panel story.
Oh, yeah.
I think that would really sum up kind of or puttogether, like how volunteering and how sort of
(32:20):
the ideology that you have kind of comes tofruition.
Could you talk a little bit about that?
I don't wanna give away too much because Ithink the story is incredible.
Yeah.
So we have a relationship with, a person by thename of Allison King.
She's the founder of of Modern Phoenix, and sheis a historian, an archivist, and everything
(32:40):
knowing about mid century architecture in thevalley.
She called me one day and said, James, you haveto come out and look at this building.
The owners are getting rid of about 125 midcentury precast concrete panels, and they're
going to put them in the landfill.
You need to take a look at that.
So, drove out to the site one day, met with theowner, which was Arizona Public Service.
(33:04):
They're our largest utility company in thevalley.
And they were so beautiful, I said, We have totake these.
And so, we made an arrangement that they wouldcrane these panels off the building.
We would provide the transportation and wewould basically haul off all of these panels.
Keep in mind, we we took 95 panels, eachweighing 3,800 pounds apiece, five feet wide by
(33:30):
17 feet tall.
So, was this was our biggest hoarding effort todate.
People thought I was crazy to move forward withthis, but I got buy in from my partners and we
took all of these panels to a project we wereworking on.
We convinced our client, since we were doing ayear build forum, where we actually renovated
(33:53):
Adaptive Reuse a dollar store into a behavioralhealth clinic, that we would give her 18 free
panels if she allowed us to store all the restof them for a year.
And so we did that and we transformed thisdollar store with these beautiful panels.
And we've since designed four or five projectswith these panels, some coming soon.
(34:14):
So it's it's our biggest snatch and grab todate.
Yeah.
That's a £361,000 hoard, so you're aware.
I don't know if you've done the math on that.
Yeah.
Still a lot of concrete.
It's it's our biggest to date.
I like that you
say to date because that implies that therewill be bigger ones in the future.
(34:36):
Well, there there there was a recent one.
Paradise Valley is a kind of a suburb justbetween Phoenix and Scottsdale, and they had a
Lutheran, a sentient Lutheran maybe church.
And they had a 150 foot spire, beautiful midcentury spire.
And the church got bought by a developer, andthey were gonna tear the church down and build
(34:59):
maybe eight custom homes.
And so, of course, in all of our wherewithal,it was designed by an apprentice of Frank Lloyd
Wright.
So, my partner being on the board wasapproached to see if 180 would be interested in
cutting it into five pieces and salvaging it totake it off the building.
And of course, we said yes, because that's whatwe do.
(35:21):
And so now we're in the process of the town ofPeavey is working on funding to re erect it at
their capital complex.
Yeah.
So saving architectural history is superimportant for us.
So because when you first talked to me aboutthese precast, you know, concrete, what I
imagined were slabs, I was thinking warehousesiding slabs.
(35:43):
You know, this is like sort of the concretewalls that you wreck when, you know, a
warehouse is brought up.
Can you give a little bit more description ordetail around because it this it gives it no
justice as to what these things actually looklike because they're quite amazing.
Yeah.
So the panels, very intricate, had a pattern.
It was really a a flame.
(36:04):
So the bottom of the concrete panels lookedlike a flame and the flame went up to the top
of the panels.
And so there are probably 50 to 60 holes in it.
So, the panels are super porous and they had alight aggregate finish to it on the surface.
And so, super intricate design and thefabrication of it was so amazing that the
(36:27):
quality seventy five years later was stillperfectly intact.
The I was told I didn't see a price or I wastold that they tried to see what it would be to
replicate them.
And I think the price was over $3,000,000 torecast them today.
So Woah.
That kind
of tells you just how intricate these theseare.
And concrete's cheap for all intents andpurposes?
(36:50):
Yeah.
Well, these are really things of beauty, andand we just don't see that level of precast
concrete anymore.
I think, you know, the fifties, sixties, andeven seventies just were beautiful handcrafted,
you know, panels.
And today you just see the tilt up and it's,you know, they might put a reveal or a pattern
in it, but not very much.
This will reminds me of Heather Lennon.
(37:11):
Right?
Because she does a lot of adaptive reuse.
I guess the question is is why is saving thehistory so important to you in the firm?
Yeah.
So I've I've always loved historicarchitecture.
You know, moving out to Phoenix, Phoenix is avery young place.
You know, being from South Louisiana, you justyou had these old buildings.
(37:33):
They're brick and they're wood, and you justdon't have a lot of history in Phoenix.
Our office happens to be built in '46 withbowstring trusses, brick facades, and you just
don't have a lot of that.
And so, really try to salvage a lot of what wasbuilt here in the 50s and 60s, because that's
when really the mid century was reallydesigning clean, modern architecture for the
(37:57):
desert.
And then my work on the foundation, we have acommittee at the Arizona Architecture
Foundation called the Archives Committee.
For ten years, our committee has been salvagingoriginal hand drawings pre 1985.
And to date, we've salvaged 20 collectionsmaybe, And we have over 40,000 original
(38:21):
drawings from architects dating all the wayback to 1900.
So, our committee is vibrant.
They're getting a collection or two every yearfrom architects.
And we're really preserving that Arizonalegacy, which is important.
Yeah.
No.
I I completely agree.
Originally from Chicago and Will lives inChicago area right now, there is a massive
(38:43):
difference in regards to Phoenix compared to anolder city where it's just the architecture.
Even as someone who is not an architect, it'sjust very eyeing at times to just look around
and see the things that were built and created.
You know, designed and then built and created.
Just it's very impressive.
So I think I there's a diff I applaud you.
(39:04):
I think there's a different level ofpreservation that comes from a city like
Chicago with so much history, and they place alarger, you know, focus on that.
Phoenix is so new, developers that they'll comein and wipe out a building in a day and not
even think about it.
And I think there's a lot of people in town,the AIA is involved.
(39:28):
They have made strides in preserving somehistoric properties here, but it's really tough
to do, you know, because a lot of a lot oftimes the developers went out and you go fight
with the city council and property rights winsometimes.
And it's just unfortunate.
We have a famous architect by the name of AlBeadle who built some of the most incredible
mid century projects here in the Phoenix andScottsdale area.
(39:51):
And we've been in a big battle on one ofhistoric homes that had become derelict and an
owner wanted to tear it down and build a newcustom McMansion.
And we've been in that battle for over a yearor so.
Wow.
I think I want to switch for a quick secondbecause we talked a whole bunch about people
and process.
I want talk a little bit about technologybecause there's no set way to do things.
(40:15):
And I found some of the answers that you gaveus before interesting.
So do you use a construction managementsoftware or what do you use for construction
management?
So, we don't.
We don't use a dedicated Procore or one ofthose type of systems.
(40:38):
We basically use Excel that has been juiced upsubstantially over the last two decades to meet
kind of how we price things out.
We don't have a ton of data that we can rely onfrom the industry as far as means and cost per
square foot, because everything we do is sounique.
And so that information is not really useful tous.
(40:59):
And so we kind of create all of our stuff inhouse.
I mean, far as the design software, we mix aton of different applications for that and for
fabrications.
Super interesting.
And just just for, like, the other technologiesthat you use, what do you guys use?
Because you have a combination of, right, yourdesign build and fabrication.
(41:20):
So you kinda have to intermix between allthose.
Can you talk a little bit about what you usethere and why?
Yeah.
So, we'll start a project if it's, let's say,it's a renovation or adaptive reuse, we'll do a
Matterport scan.
And from that scan, which is incredibletechnology that we've been implementing for the
last year and a half, We'll take that into athree d model to start the design work.
(41:41):
Usually we do that in Rhino as a software ofchoice till we get to schematic design.
Once we get kind of buy in off a schematic,then we'll transfer it into Revit, where we're
doing all of our construction documents inRevit.
We go to construction.
We still have the Rhino model.
We have the Revit model in the field.
The guys have access to the computer model.
(42:02):
And then if we were doing fabrication oncomponents, we actually take it back into
Rhino.
And the guys in our shop developed a specialsoftware that basically allows our Rhino model
to create a parts list.
And so we're doing fabrication, you know, fromthat model directly.
So sometimes we don't even print drawings whenwe fabricate.
We're going straight from the Rhino model.
(42:24):
We either cut it in house on our CNC machinesor we'll send it out for plasma cutting or
water jet cutting, and we'll get all theseparts back to our shop.
So, it's kind of, you know, really kind ofdigitally modeled.
The guys who run our shop, Evan and Mikhail,were trained at SCI Arc in Los Angeles, and
they have a huge background in complexparametric modeling.
(42:47):
And that alone has helped our fab team reallykind of push boundaries where typical steel
shops can't just don't get into.
So a whole bunch of different technologies wethrow at.
I mean, super cool.
You know what, Justin?
I think it's that time.
You got you got anything else for James?
Just our last question.
(43:09):
Our our question that we love to ask all of ourguests.
So, James, if you could go back twenty yearsand give yourself a little bit of advice, what
would that be?
What would 02/2005, James, learn from 02/2025,James?
I would say start off with a good lawyer.
(43:29):
Get a good accountant and get a good insurancebroker.
Because if you have those three lined up early,you will learn a lot and your business will
will appreciate it in the first three years.
So that that's my advice.
And take risk.
You'll get through it.
Work hard.
Keep the quality as good as you can get it.
(43:52):
And if you do that, you'll get more work.
So what one, I love both sides of that, but Ilove the tacticalness of just here, do these
three things, and you're you get these threepeople, and you're gonna be in a way better
place.
I love that.
I love the tacticality it.
Yes.
That's awesome.
This has been a ton of fun.
We're gonna put all your social and all thatfun jazz into the the show notes.
(44:15):
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
So 180degreesinc.com.
That's www.180degreesinc.com.
That's our website.
And, you can reach us all from there.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell thepeople before we say our goodbyes?
No, just keep, keep doing great architecture.
(44:37):
Keep doing great architecture.
Keep taking risks and keep building andconserving all of Phoenix.
Yeah.
Certainly.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Listeners, this has been great.
I hope you had as much fun as we did today.
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
I
see you guys.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening to building scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
(45:01):
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
(45:26):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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