Saving Time in Construction with Technology with Lenny Joseph and Laci Jackson of Bidtracer

Lenny Joseph and Laci Jackson dive into their roles at Bidtracer, a leader in construction technology. Lenny shares his journey and the company's founding, contrasting corporate and entrepreneurial experiences. They discuss innovation challenges, skepticism towards software in construction, and balancing growth with innovation. The conversation also covers identifying valuable team members, personal connections, and Laci's career transition. Lenny addresses cybersecurity challenges and the impact of AI in construction, offering advice to his younger self.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
And within the first year alone, I think we hada million dollars in sales from service

(00:03):
technicians just in Puerto Rico alone.
Right?
You think about
scaling.
Yeah.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, architecture, engineering, and
construction companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC

(00:24):
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.

(00:48):
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT andcybersecurity strategy.

(01:11):
Just go to buildingscale.net/health.
Today's guests are Lenny Joseph and LaceyJackson from BitTracer.
Lenny Joseph is a chief strategy andcommercialization officer for Bidtracer,
leading global strategy with a backgroundspanning construction, smart building tech,
SaaS, and IoT driven solutions.

(01:33):
He's lived and worked on five continents,shaping a perspective rooted in education,
grit, humility, and relationship building.
At Bridger Bidtracer, Lenny leads a cloud basedCRM and operations platform tailored for
construction, built to scale far beyond bidtracking.
Known for his passion and for tech andinnovation, Lenny thrives on turning bold ideas

(01:55):
into practical solutions.
Lacey manages key accounts at Bidtracer,specializing in HVAC control industry,
supporting both distributors and contractors.
Prior to Bidtracer, she was the nationalaccount manager at Alps Controls.
She's based in Memphis, Tennessee, holds adegree in consumer science and education with a
marketing minor, and brings over fifteen yearsof experience to Bitracer.

(02:18):
So with all that said, both of you, welcome tothe show.
Thank you for having us.
Thank you.
Thank you, Justin.
Yes.
Very exciting.
When we had our first conversation, I veryquickly knew I was gonna really like both of
you.
So that's that's I I don't know.
I I I'm such a people person.
So I I say this and people are like, well,Justin, you like everybody.
But no.
I really, really enjoyed the alliteration ofLacey and Lenny.

(02:40):
That does it for me too.
So, like, simple things like that can just sendit over the top.
But, I said a bunch of nice things.
How about you both give us a little more, yourbackground and a little bit about more little
bit more about Bidtracer?
Yeah.
Lacey, you wanna go ahead?
Yeah.
Sure.
I've worked here.
I haven't worked here too long.
I've been here for about six months.
Like you said, I did come from the industry.

(03:02):
I used to work for two distributors, so I comewith fifteen years of experience.
But I personally was interested in Bidtracer.
And so I reached out to them about a year ago,wanted to learn more about what they were
doing.
And I was so interested that I decided, hey.
I think I wanna go work for this company.
So I've learned a lot in the last six months,four to six months, but, I'm learning more and
more every day here on how we we helpstreamline our customers' workflow.

(03:26):
So, yeah, it's been an interesting, change forme.
And that's it.
Lenny, I'm gonna throw it to you now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good.
That's good.
So so my history has been pretty long.
And then, you know, there's my journey asLenny, and then there's a journey that I've had
with Bitracer.
And my journey with Bitracer has been about, Ithink it really started about ten years ago.
I started working actively with them aboutseven years ago.

(03:49):
Background is I'm a mechanical engineer, grewup in Africa, I grew up in Nigeria.
I have my bachelor's degree from there.
I worked in Europe for a couple of years, Iworked in Nigeria for a couple of years, and
then I worked in Malaysia for a couple of yearsas well.
And then came over to The United States and gotmy master's in mechanical engineering at
Michigan State.
And from there on, I started working forJohnson Controls.

(04:11):
And it was the first time I got introduced tothe controls industry.
So, in my previous work experience, I'd workedas a consulting engineer, as a general
contractor, as well as a design buildcontractor.
So, much had the whole thing associated with,you know, in our AEC industry, worked as a
consultant, also worked as a contractor, andhere I was getting introduced to the controls

(04:33):
industry.
And I started off in the controls industry withJohns Controls as a project engineer, project
manager.
And over the years, I grew into roles ofincreasing responsibility until a point in time
at which I was running all of Latin America forsales and operations for Johnson Controls.
And it was at that point in time that my pathscrossed with Bitracer.

(04:53):
And what's interesting, it was a veryinteresting experience by paths crossing with
Bitracer, because what had happened is I had,and it's very relevant to what we are going to
talk about in terms of scaling, we had acontinuous improvement director present all the
projects to me in Latin America.
And as they were presenting it, they presenteda particular scenario where they had improved

(05:15):
the customer response time from ninety days tosixty days.
And I thought, great, tell me about it.
The scenario goes like this.
A service technician goes out to a job site,and he's there to do a regular quarterly
maintenance service.
And while he's doing that service, the customerasked him for a quotation or a price to do some
extra work.
And what he would do is he would pick up thephone, call up the office, and tell somebody in

(05:40):
the office, keep in mind he's a servicetechnician, so he's not authorized to price
projects.
So he would call up the office, tell theoffice, this is what we want done.
Office will take it and pass it on to a salesassociate, and the sales associate is supposed
to price it and send it to the customer.
Sales associate has a lot of projects on hisplate.
This little job that the customer wants doesn'tget to the top of his priority, so he forgets

(06:04):
about it and never prices it.
And then ninety days later, when the sameservice technician is back at the job site, the
customer is pissed and the customer is like,Hey, I asked you for a price.
You never gave me the price.
Then they put a price together and that was theninety day window.
Then improved it to sixty days, and the waythey did it was thirty days before the service

(06:24):
tech would show up on the job site, somebody inthe office would call up the customer to check
on the customer and say, Hey, is there anythingoutstanding from our last visit?
Then they would get this, there is thisquotation, so they prepare the quotation in
sixty days.
And the continuous improvement team were all sohappy that they've improved it.
I mean, they literally improved it by, I don'tknow, 50%, 75%, whatever metric you want to put

(06:45):
on it.
And I am just looking at them and I am like,boy, you guys don't get this.
You guys do not get this.
I said, let me give you the analogy for it.
I said, imagine, imagine if you went over tochange the oil in your car and you drive up to
Jiffy Lube or wherever it is, And there, rightwhile you're there, you tell the guys that are

(07:06):
changing oil that, Hey, I want to change mywindshield wipers.
The guy doesn't give you a price till you comethe next time you come around.
Because what really needs to happen is you needto be able to give them a price right now.
And right as soon as you give them the price,if you have the material in your truck, you
need to be able to do the job and the customerpays you and it's all done.
It should all be done immediately.
So, I talked to my boss at that time, whosename happened to be Chris, and I said, Chris,

(07:30):
I'm going to get somebody to write somesoftware, and we're going to have service
technicians.
We're going to give them the ability to pricejobs.
We're going to give them ability.
I'll get them to do credit card transactions.
I'll get them to do all of this stuff.
He's like, Hold on a second.
I'm going to introduce you to someone calledChris.
And he introduces me to Chris Mehta, who is thefounder of BitTracer.
So, that is how our paths crossed.

(07:53):
Incidentally, Chris came down, I met with him,we knocked out a piece of software, technicians
started using it, and within the first yearalone, I think we had a million dollars in
sales from service technicians just in PuertoRico alone.
Right?
You think about scaling.
Holy cow.
So this is is what technology does.

(08:13):
Right?
This is really what technology does.
Right?
Keep in mind, Will, it's not just it's not justthe 1,000,000 sales.
It's also 1,000,000 sales that got executedliterally on the same day without a separate
visit to this customer.
Right?
Just the amount of overhead that you removefrom, like, the follow-up and all of that,

(08:34):
like, cut it you're essentially cutting out amiddle like, multiple middlemen.
Right?
Even though they're inside of your company, butthis is just, like, hours.
Right?
That as it get as it sort of travels all aroundthe company to get to the right person to
execute and then travel back, you've cut out,like there's so many man hours in that.
And then clients experience

(08:55):
the roof.
And so the customer experience goes through theroof.
The other part of it is all of a sudden nowyou've empowered employees to take on different
roles.
Right?
And you're taking care of the customer.
So now service technicians are able to pricejobs, and in future, he might decide to become
a sales guy.
And guess what?
He's already prepped for it because he starteddoing it.

(09:16):
And most of the time, the best sales guys aretypically guys that have done operations
because they know exactly what it takes.
That was my path crossing with Bitracer.
And then within Johnson Controls, after I didthat role, my next role was to figure out as
Global Vice President for Smart Buildings forJohnson Controls to figure out what the future
of Johnson Controls would be in terms of theproducts that we are going to release, the kind

(09:38):
of software we are going to have, as well asthe channels to market.
A few months into that role, I decided to pullthe plug on my journey with Johnson Controls.
A few months into it, I left Johnson Controls,very amicably.
In fact, Johnson Controls is a very bigcustomer of ours right now.
I had very good relationships with them, but Ijust felt like I needed to start carving a

(09:59):
different journey in my journey.
Right?
And that journey was not going to be workingfor corporations.
So, this was my step into the entrepreneurialroute.
So, I took that step, and a few months after Ileft, I was talking to Chris and we were just
talking about stuff, and he was asking aboutthe stuff I was doing, and I told him that,
look, they're not going to go to anycorporation, but I would love to help startups

(10:22):
scale, and I would love to help startups scale.
I note for a startup, for them to get somebodyat the C level that understands how to scale is
going to be too much of a lift in terms ofdollars and cents.
So, I will be more than willing to come joinyou by that, that you pay me based on the
returns, you pay me based on how we grow, andyou pay me based on equity in the company.

(10:44):
So, that is exactly what happened when I joinedBitracer.
Now, let's talk about Bitracer and whatBitracer's history is, because that in itself
is a very, very interesting history.
Chris Mehta and Samir, they formed Bitracer.
They are childhood friends that grew uptogether.
So, they've known each other from when theywere kids, from about seven years.

(11:06):
I have photographs of both of them climbingtrees, right?
So, known each other for a very, very longtime.
Mir's, I think, a bioelectronics.
Lacey, what's his background?
I keep forgetting.
Samir's a bioengineering or electronicsengineering.
They both went to Wisconsin, I believe, right?
And got their degrees in engineering, Ibelieve.
Both in engineering.

(11:27):
I know Samir's got a weird engineering.
I think it's a bioengineering degree.
He's got an electrical, I think, and Chris is amechanical engineer.
Chris's dad had a distribution company,equipment distribution company.
So, they sell rooftop units, chillers, grills,diffusers, and all that.
And Chris went and worked for a mechanicalcontractor for a while.
And after he worked there for a few years, hecame back to work for his dad.

(11:48):
And when he came to work for his dad, dad said,look, you guys are all smart, you guys have
gone to school, and there's this computer stuffgoing on, and you guys are really good, really
good at putting quotations and prices outthere, but your follow-up sucks because you
have so many quotes out there and nobodyfollows up on it.

(12:09):
So every day you get calls for a quote, you'rethere typing up the quote, you send the quote
out and you forget about it.
Right?
So how do we make sure we're able to follow-upon this stuff?
That is how Samir and Chris came together andthey formed Bidtracer.
Hence the name Bidtracer to trace the bids.
Makes sense.
Very fitting name for the thing that theyinitially tried to achieve.

(12:34):
That's exactly right.
And for the years, our modules and our serviceshave expanded so far beyond Bidtracer.
And we keep wondering at some point in time, dowe need to rebrand ourselves?
Do we need to change our name or something?
Right?
Because people see it and they're like,Bitracer, what do you guys do?
And I have to explain that we have all thesemodules that do sales and operations and this

(12:56):
and that.
Is beyond it.
So at some point in time, we're gonna have toaddress that.
Right?
Well, Lacey's got a minor in marketing, soshe'll tell you you should probably rebrand it.
I don't know.
I have no idea.
I joke.
So you
look the same.
I like it.
Yeah.
Okay.
You left corporate, though.
I wanna talk about the the differences.
Obviously, going into the entrepreneurial worldcompared to being at, you know, a very large

(13:17):
company like Johnson Controls, why take theplunge?
Like, what was the you know, not that,obviously, you still have a good relationship
with them, but, like, there was something thatwas missing there that you weren't being fully
fulfilled.
So, like, what what was that thing that got youover the hump to say, like, hey.
I need to go off and and do this thing.
So so I'll go back to what you guys talk abouttypically.

(13:37):
Right?
You guys talk about the three pillars, people,process, technology.
Right?
And I think in the initial calls that you and Ihad, you asked me what it was, and I say it's
people, process, and structure.
Right?
You know?
And I'll tell you, you know, you guys have thetechnology thing, but I from a standpoint that
you need to use technology for all threefacets.
So, to me right now, it technically istechnology, and then you've got people,

(14:02):
process, and structure underneath it.
Does that make sense?
You need to be able to apply technology acrossall, right?
Here's what happens for large corporations.
We've always known it's people, process, andstructure.
So, they create that people, process, andstructure so that you can have a predictable
business.
A predictable business in a manner whereby Ican tell my shareholders, I'm going to make

(14:25):
this much amount of sales, this much amount ofrevenue, and this is going to be the profit at
the end of the year.
Right?
And I should be able to say that not just for amonth, but for a quarter, for a year, and
probably a three year projection.
What tends to happen is every quarter when werelease our results, you have got to go stand
in front of the shareholders and the wholemarketplace, and you can tell them, hey, this

(14:47):
is what we said we were going to do in thisquarter, and this is what we have done.
So you have got to have a predictable business.
And if you do not meet that predictabilitycorrectly, you see that stock market stock
prices just fluctuate up and down.
Right?
And sometimes it's amazing.
You would see a company that didn't make anyprofit and their share prices actually go up.
And you're wondering, how did that happen?

(15:07):
Why did the share prices go up?
Well, the fact of the matter is it did go upbecause they said they were going to do
something and that management team went aheadand did exactly what they said they were going
to do.
So if now along with those losses, if thatmanagement team is now projecting a future
whereby they're going to make profit,shareholders believe they can bet on that

(15:31):
number.
Right?
So it's all about believing.
So when you go down that predictability thing,you whittle down from the numbers and you go
down to every level.
You've got to make sure you've got solidpeople, solid processes, the sales in the lead
generation, in the execution.
So all of these processes that you put intypically tends to be guidelines and sometimes

(15:56):
those guidelines can also prevent you frombeing innovative.
So what tends to happen is that these samethings that you need for the predictability of
your business, for your growth and everythingelse can actually impede you from actually
growing.
If you are trying to break into a field wherebyyou need to be innovative and when you need to

(16:17):
be innovative, there are different versions ofinnovation, right?
There's the innovation associated with, hey, Iam selling axes and now I want to sell
suitcases.
That is just one step innovation.
But if I was selling boxes and now I want tosell airplanes, that's an entirely different
thing, right?
Much larger box, an airplane, compared to abox.

(16:38):
Larger box.
So many things that you cannot predict.
Right?
So to answer your question, needed what needsto happen in the controls industry associated
with digitization and digital buildings andeverything else happening is a major step
change.
I felt that at Johnson Controls with all thepeople, processes, and structure that was

(17:00):
there, it was going to be a very hard lift toactually make that step change.
Got it.
Okay.
The reason why I left this point.
Yep.
I just I just wanna summarize what I just heardand tell me if you agree with this.
Okay?
Right?
Is structure, process, people.
Right?
Technology is kind of over
that.

(17:20):
The the
counterbalance, essentially, portionality ofinnovation is how much process you have.
So the more process that you have, the morepolicy you have in place.
Innovation, the harder it is to innovate.
Right?
If you have less
process people are involved too.

(17:41):
You know?
Right?
You have to get through more people to get theyes out of so many people to actually make
something happen.
You can get eight people to say yes, but thatone person that says no, they can kill it all,
you know, and stop the whole innovation.
This is where it's a bit of a counterbalance.
Right?
If you want more innovation because innovationcan bring humongous scale.

(18:01):
If too much policy, if you have too muchstructure in place, then you can't get that
then you can't get that done.
So smaller companies have the ability toinnovate more faster.
They might not have the necessarily thedollars, not always.
Right?
All the surrounding other pieces to be able tobe successful in the in the innovation side,

(18:21):
which will eventually go to scale.
Would you agree that's the that's kind of howit goes?
This and there's one other part that I thinkthe larger corporations need to realize, and I
don't think they've realized it.
Right?
So there is a commitment they make toshareholders and everything else, and there's
nothing wrong in them being able to innovate.
What they need to have is they because eveninnovation, I know it sounds counterintuitive,

(18:45):
but even innovation has to have a process,right?
There is a process for innovation, right?
They really need to have is they need to have aseparate business unit is dedicated to
innovation and resources that are assigned tothat unit, as well as how that unit gets
measured cannot be tied in to the rest of thecompany.

(19:09):
Because the minute it's tied into the rest ofthe company, you might not get the returns
you're looking for and you start cuttingthings.
And when you start cutting things, you'reimpeding it.
And part of that as well is that a group withininnovation has to be led by folks that doesn't
have the restrictions of veto power from otherbusiness units, right?

(19:29):
Because you've got to be flexible.
You don't want the case that where Lacey saideight people say go, and one person says, no,
you can't go, and then it pulls everybody down.
Right?
So, is a big portion.
I think what we should think about and look atis, let's talk about cars, for instance, right?
Why is it that Tesla was able to bring ourelectric cars and Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota,

(19:52):
and the rest of them were not the ones at theforefront of electric cars?
And part of it, if you dig deep into it, you'llfind out that it's because their innovation was
just restricted to just minor improvements onthe vehicles and engines that they had to make
that step change.
Nobody really invested in a division just tomake electric vehicles.

(20:12):
They had done that.
Perhaps they would have done it much quickerthan Tesla.
In fact, they would have done us all a servicebecause then you would have had all of these
companies having electric vehicles.
But they were not able to do it.
And it comes down to the structure they have.
So that people process structure, there has tobe a structure, and that structure has to feed
into innovation.

(20:33):
Other part
yeah. Of
Of it too Pause it because you've saidstructure multiple times.
Okay?
Mhmm.
Talk real briefly.
What do you mean by structure?
Here's here's what has happened.
A lot of the companies will speak specificallyto the controls industry.
The controls industry is where we are in to acertain extent.
It also affects the construction industry as awhole because the products are going into the

(20:56):
construction industry.
You know, these large corporations have tofigure out how to measure.
You remember what I said about predictabilityand their revenue and sales?
So they've got to figure out how exactlythey're measuring that.
So what they tend to do is initially, if theyhave a bunch of products in the portfolio,
they've got to make a decision whether they'regoing to be reporting by product line or
whether they're going to be reporting byregion.

(21:17):
So, what tends to happen if I'm making boxesand I'm making some other stuff, don't know,
fans, I need to make sure my organization forfans is one vertical unit that is covering the
whole globe.
Do I do it by region and say I report byregion?
Right?
So what tends to happen is they end up withthis matrix organization.
Right?
And those matrix organizations can become veryconfusing for innovation, because now nobody

(21:43):
has the full responsibility and everybody hasthe full responsibility, so to speak.
So when the innovation is happening, you'regoing to have regional managers saying, hey,
you spend money on that.
I'm not gonna be able to show profitability.
I really am not going to be able to grow, andthey stop it.
Right?
So is that, like, r and d budget?
Right?

(22:03):
Like, but in innovation in the innovationspace.
Right?
So because you're totally right where it'slike, if I have to if I'm trying to bake
everything in, you know, as we're going aboutthis, like, you're inherently pulling stuff
away because that's the only how can I make achange globally or a change in a massive way
without pulling something away from somethingthat's currently active, which then that

(22:26):
creates the problem?
Right?
Because to your to your example of the electriccars, it's like, yeah.
Like, if you're just trying to base upon aMustang, build an electric Mustang compared to
like, let's build an electric vehicle thatdoesn't necessarily have to obey by the
principles of a of a traditional gas poweredvehicle, it changes how we look at the

(22:49):
manufacturing process.
Like all like, it's it's no longer trying tofit the innovation into the the box and back to
the boxes.
It is literally saying like, I don't know.
Maybe we needed a cylinder.
Like, maybe it's something completely differentthat didn't we were looking at the, you know,
the wrong shape just as in totality.
And, like, if we just would have allowed freethinking to occur, then you would have found

(23:14):
yourself quicker to the innovation, which thenyou can then scale, which then actually brings
you the dollars in because at the end of theday, is the goal, right?
Like, hey, we are doing this because it isgoing to be something that changes for our
company or our industry in a massive way tothen obviously become profitable with whatever
that innovation is.

(23:36):
Exactly right.
Yeah.
So Lenny, are you saying that like when you sawBig Tracer, you saw this company that was able
to make this impact in this industry, and youmet with Chris, and you were like, I can work
for Bidtracer and actually make a change and dosomething within my career and have time to
make that change.
Because Bidtracer is one of those companiesthat, like, we're all about innovation and you

(23:59):
saw, okay.
This is a company I wanna work for because Ican make more of an impact here, rather than
working for a large corporation.
That that is that is exactly right.
Because this other aspect of it is that withinpeople, process and structure, and I've
mentioned it a few times, for you to besuccessful in driving it, even though
innovation has a process, you need to have aculture of innovation.

(24:22):
And that culture of innovation comes from theheads, right?
So if you meet Chris or you meet Samir, theseguys are all about innovation.
That's why we're not just tracking bids today,right?
So we do so many different modules and we keepdoing so many things in different countries
across the world.
We have so many different I mean, we havemechanical, electrical contractors, controls

(24:43):
contractors.
Now we have painters using it.
I have logistics companies that are trying tofigure out how to schedule their trucks in
moving goods from different parts of thecountry, trying to figure out how they're going
to use Bitracer.
And when all these opportunities come in, Ihave manufacturers that I'm talking to, and I
don't want to name the manufacturer out here,but we've already built a tool right now.

(25:06):
You see, you're not aware of it.
We've built a tool that is able to manage allof their inventory on their shop floor so that
they can manage all of the stuff coming in aswell as what they're using for different
assemblies and things like that.
Lisa, you can understand how we build systemkits within our structure.
So, take that perspective.
That is exactly what manufacturing looks like.

(25:27):
For manufacturing, what you're doing, you wantto make X, you need components A, B, C, D, E,
and F.
So, if I can track all those things and checkthe inventory of that, I can figure out how I
can make X.
Right?
So the same principles we use for controlscontractors, we've taken it, we are applying it
to a manufacturer right now, and he's going tobe using it as his warehousing tool.
And right now we're talking to him, and notonly is he going to use it as a warehousing

(25:48):
tool and his tool to manage his work inprogress, we are going to be sending out
invoices from there.
Kind of ideas come up and what happens is thatI call up Chris, I call up Samir, I'm like,
hey, we gotta do this.
This one this one looks good.
There's a bigger market here.
If we do this for this company, there are somany other manufacturers out there, small
manufacturers, and they don't have an easyscalable solution.

(26:10):
So we knock it off for this guy, then we can goknock out every single door of a manufacturer
that makes 3 or $4,000,000 worth of products,we have a ready made software that they can
use.
And immediately, we start working on it and weget going, and that culture is there.
So, Lacey, to answer your question in longform, yes.
When I met with Chris, it was so clear.

(26:32):
Mean, he was the one think about this.
When he came down to meet me in Latin Americaten years ago, I was in Miami, he came to meet
me in Miami.
I just told him, Hey, this is what I want.
At that time, Bitracer did not have a mobiletool.
They did not have a mobile phone tool.
So what we did there was the initiation of ushaving mobile phones mobile phone tools.
And then he came over.
I'm like, this is what I'm thinking of doing.

(26:53):
This is what this is what I want to look like.
What do you think?
And he's like, well, we don't do that today,but guess what?
Let's go do it.
Right?
And boom, boom, boom, it was done.
It was done within, like, a couple of months,two, three months.
We're able to call up our programmers, get themin a room, and Lacey knows this.
I mean, in in a lot of meetings with keycustomers and the rest of it, there's always

(27:13):
Chris, myself or Samir on the calls.
We get on those calls so we can understandcustomer needs properly.
We are always there trying to understandcustomer needs.
It is very rare that you will hear no from us.
There are certain industries that said, hey,no, we don't do that.
But other than that, it's very rare when we getwith a customer where they say, hey, do you

(27:33):
think you can do this?
Most of the times it's like, let's look intoit.
What else do you want?
What else do you want it to do?
Right?
Tell us now, because if you're gonna make somemodifications, full wishlist, let's see what we
can do with all of the wishlist.
Right?
So that culture has to be there.
That's the innovation side, but theconstruction industry has been burned by the

(27:56):
software industry.
Right?
It was a long time where the constructionindustry basically didn't believe or was very
hesitant to deal with the software engineer youknow, industry because, let's be honest, it
doesn't prevent someone from swinging a hammer.
And that's essentially how the industry kindalooked at it.
And and they got burned so many times becauseof promises that were made, etcetera.

(28:19):
Where where's you know, Johnson Controls,obviously, very much related to the
construction industry, the people.
What about the other founders?
How does it relate?
Yeah.
You know, they've been burned by software, andI think they're still getting burned for the
reason.
So there's this there's this other balance,right, when it comes to creating a a a product.

(28:42):
Right?
Will, Justin, either of you engineers by anychance?
The technology management engineer.
Yes.
I do have an engineering degree.
Although
I don't know why he's being so shy right
now.
I don't tout very often.
Hey.
Hey.
You don't have the
personality of an engineer.
I don't think
The skill.
Well, you do.
You so so so so you're you're a good example,Will.

(29:04):
I'm glad I'm glad you're an engineer because Iwouldn't pin you as an engineer.
And the reason why I wouldn't pin you as atypical engineer is because you've got that
business mindset.
You're looking at things outside of theengineering.
Typical engineers, and I'm gonna say this, youknow, typical engineers, a lot of them, 90% of
them, and not let go of things until they're a100% right is a big, big problem.

(29:29):
Right?
So what they do is they start designing.
Skill, I continually working on it.
That is an itch.
That is an itch.
I'm just gonna put that out there.
That is why I'm an engineer, but I also havelearned to let go.
Facts.
Will has gotten better and better over the manyyears.
For sure.
No question about that.
But perfection is the
thing that he's looked for historically.

(29:50):
Before Justin exposes you.
Right?
It's a fine balance, right?
It is a fine balance of knowing when to let goand let it go into production.
It is a fine balance.
So, bring that up because what we typicallyhave in the construction industry is you have
software guys that have created products forthe construction industry.

(30:14):
They are not from construction.
Right?
This is what makes Bitracer different.
We are not software engineers.
The guys that lead the company are notsoftware.
We are construction guys.
Right?
So it's a very unique thing because we areconstruction guys.
Same time, we are also engineers.

(30:35):
So both Chris and I are both mechanicalengineers.
So we are both engineers.
We have other companies other than Bitracer.
We have other companies and the other companiesare active in the construction industry.
So because it is active in the constructionindustry, we are in touch with the market and
what the construction industry needs.
Right.
So as we develop the products for Bitracer,what makes Bitracer unique is that it does just

(31:01):
enough that you really need everything youreally need.
And there's a big fine line there in the sensethat with Bitracer, can get 80% to 90% of your
stuff done.
And that is all most people need to worryabout.
Right?
They do not need to worry about it being ableto do all sorts of things because you have got
to have a tool that is appropriate to theproblem at hand.

(31:24):
And if you look at a lot of the softwares thatare out there, the construction industry, they
try to fine tune it to the minutest level.
That's one of the reasons if you try to thinkof or talk to any construction company and ask
them about their ERP systems, the accountingsystems, And they will tell you they've gone to
Oracle, they've gone to a few other guys, andthey get bills that are millions of dollars to

(31:47):
set them up as an account.
Guess what?
The things that they do, there's a lot ofthings there that are overkill that are not
required.
Right.
So, it's one of those things that we've beenchallenged with and we ensure at all times that
we are trying to hit all the low hanging fruitof what the tool needs to do.
And then we go ahead and build it and thenpeople use it.

(32:09):
Right.
So, it's hopefully with time hoping, and Iexpect construction industry personnel stepping
into the software arena because there are somany gaps in the construction industry whereby
technology can be applied, where technology canbe applied to help a company scale, as well as
help whole industry progress forward.

(32:31):
It really badly needs guys to have constructionexperience stepping into the software arena.
The challenge that you then have is obviouslyall this innovation that is occurring and like,
that's the mindset, but scaling up, you know,you know, this counterbalance that we're
talking about, like, how does, how do you, youguys approach that?
How does bid tracer say like, we wanna beinnovative.

(32:51):
However, we also wanna create things that wecan scale.
Otherwise, we're just building a lot of coolshit randomly all the time, and that will not
be, you know, the path to, glamour and profitand success.
Oh, absolutely right.
So I'll tell you that within the controlsindustry, we've got a large percentage of

(33:11):
contractors, controls contractors using ourtool.
We started using the controls contractors, thebasis to build Bitracer out because that has
the most level of activities from sales andoperations and the most complexity in putting
stuff together.
So, in the controls industry, put a packagetogether, you are looking at valves, actuators,
a whole bunch of engineering stuff puttogether, a lot of labor, a lot of hardware and

(33:34):
software engineering.
So, it is very complex.
It is not the same as a drywall guy putting updrywall and mudding it, right?
Because that is pretty straightforward.
So we have built the tool to tackle the mostcomplex part.
And we are in the process, we have gained a lotof market share within the controls industry.
We are segueing into the mechanical contractingindustry, as well as the electrical contracting

(33:56):
industry, and then we are going to segue intoother divisions as we speak.
And as we begin to do that, what we are goingto do is the team that handles the controls
industry is going to be in a structure of itsown.
Right.
So, we have developed that product.
That product is scaling, processes beingimplemented in there.
So now we can let that thing grow independentof all these other activities we are going to

(34:20):
take on.
So, that is kind of the approach we are goingto be taking whereby innovation is going to be
based on, you know, the structure that is inplace and where we need to apply it.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
So you're saying you're going to take, youobviously take the most complicated trade,
right?
Or you're a very complicated and you do, youbuild it out, right?

(34:43):
Hey, this is that trade.
And then from there you go to another and yougo to another and another.
And ideally in the dream, and I'm sure that youhave had is like, it should get easier when
we've done the work already, but then we'realso, you know, doing this for less complex
trades down the line, which then should allowus to speed up the, the being able to create
that The development and

(35:06):
I'll tell you, Bitracer, we've been having 20to 30 growth every single year.
It's
even during the COVID years, we had tremendousgrowth.
It was still the 20 to 30% growth that we'vehad, you know.
I'll tell you, one thing that was reallyinteresting, just in terms of data analytics,
just I'm just gonna throw it out.
There's no part of this podcast discussion, butI'll tell you is I noticed that, in election

(35:32):
years, our business is lower.
I don't know if that's in other industries aswell, but I would
That's the two.
We've noticed the
same.
You have?
We have not.
Yeah.
I just wanted to verify because you guys aretalking to a lot of guys in the industry and
you might get a feel, but election year'sgrowth is actually less because the business is
less.
And I think it overflows into the first six ofsix months of the following year even in terms

(35:56):
of construction activity.
Right?
It's essentially the relief towards uncertaintyis what is our hypothesis, is that people are
pausing, not necessarily stopping.
Right?
But they're pausing decision making, delayingdecision making until after sort of the
election has happened.
It affects I mean, look, you know, not to bepolitical here, tariffs are a thing.

(36:20):
Right?
Even, you know, everything from boycotting tosanctioning countries, the entire supply chain
of what a lot electrical, and electricalengineers have huge impacts.
Right?
Like, a transformer that, you know, had leadtimes of eight weeks all of a sudden goes to
fifty six weeks.

(36:41):
To six weeks.
Right?
Yeah.
Like, over a year of lead time on projects isinsane.
Right?
But and so uncertainty, what we've seen indifferent ways leading to pausing decisions
until they've a sense of, like, the directionof what the new administration who the new

(37:02):
administration is gonna be and the decisionsthey're going to be making.
They're not committing to long term schedulesor long term planning that will get wiped out,
right, because of decisions get made by thetype of administration that's in place.
Yes.
Ask you a little bit about and just go back togood people.

(37:27):
Define that.
See, how do you define good people?
I'm gonna ask Lacey.
Well, I mean, for the role I am in, really, andI tell my kids this too, like getting back to
someone in a timely manner, whether you knowthe answer or not, just replying to that email.
If you reply to an email within an hour, theamount of people that don't do that, and if you

(37:50):
can be one of those ones that do and you standout, then people wanna do business with you.
That's been my experience.
Picking up the phone and calling someone, youknow, instead of just like texting or going
back and forth with an email, you can just pickup the phone and get a decision within minutes,
you know.
A good person, I mean, you know, everyone hastheir own, I guess, description of what that

(38:12):
could be.
But in the workplace, those are one of the onesthat define it for me.
It's like and just being good to work with.
Someone that's nice to work with is important.
Because you can be as smart as you can be, butif you're a total asshole, then people don't
wanna work with you.
So, I
mean No offense to engineers.
I've met too many engineers.
Fall in that category.

(38:33):
Yeah.
So, you know, for me, people wanna work with mebecause I do get back with them.
I answer their phone calls.
People can call me on my cell phone.
So I think that might be part of what Lenny istalking about.
Yeah, it is.
It me being polite, caring, right?
So you care about, so this is one of things, ifyou care about your environment as in where you

(38:55):
live, who you are and everything else, probablywill care for the work you do.
And if you care for the work you do, you wantto do a good job, right?
So, apparently, you are going to do all theright things, right?
If you're that person that is missing the rightside of your brain where the whole emotional
part comes in and sympathy and empathy like theengineers will, chances that you're a good

(39:18):
person to work with is kind of tough, right?
The other thing I actually look for, and I usedto do this while I was at John Controls.
I've interviewed quite a few people, hired alot of people, would ask folks at the front
desk.
After the person comes to the interview and allthat, I will go to the person at the front desk
and ask them, hey, that person come.
How how did that person behave?

(39:39):
Is it friendly?
Was she friendly?
Did she talk to you nicely?
Did she say hi to you?
Was she personable?
Because to me, it's so easy during an interviewto show that you're a good person, right?
It is when other people are not watching thatyou really get a feel for who that person is,
right?

(39:59):
For that reason, I understand if you're a goodperson, it's very difficult.
So you've got to go pick on things that youobserve on the side and see how they behave,
right?
A lot of observation even when we go out, evenwith current employees and stuff like that, and
I gauge them, you know, in terms of how
Good to know, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(40:20):
Thanks for the heads up, right?
I do gauge them.
I mean, I do gauge them.
I mean, like simple things like if you'rewalking, you decide to go dinner, we're going
towards the mall or wherever to go have dinner,they see someone trying to get to a door and
the door is not open and they go quickly, gograb it and open it for them.
Mean, things like that.
It doesn't even have to be somebody within ourgroup, right?
It just tells you humanity of the individual,the humane aspects of that individual, because

(40:43):
those humane aspects of that individual are socrucial in creating the right energy and right
environment and the right work environment thatyou need that is going to help everybody
thrive.
Right?
I met a customer oh, go ahead, Lenny.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
Go ahead, Betsy.
A customer at a recent trade show and he cameup and he told me his name and I said, you you

(41:07):
sound so familiar.
And he goes, oh, you're Lacey Jackson.
He goes, I talked to you, like, twelve yearsago and you helped me out.
He was like, I was a small company and you tookthe time to set me up and you took care of me.
And he goes, and then when you went to your newcompany, you took care of me again.
You set me up.
And I just had a meeting with him last week,and he's gonna be a customer of Bidtracer.

(41:29):
You know, it was I didn't get anything out ofit.
I just wanted to be a helper and help this manand his company.
And now he's a larger company, and he's gonnaopen an account with us, so and do business
with Bidtracer.
So there is a saying that people do businesswith people and not companies.
Maybe that's an example of this.
I don't know.
It's great.
Yep.
It is a great and and I'm just gonna add on towhat Lacey said earlier on.

(41:52):
Lacey mentioned the email stuff, right?
Lacey mentioned about the emails that you getback to people within an hour.
So, I was in Malaysia, I tried to get myprofessional engineering license.
They wouldn't let me take the exams for myprofession.
This is how I ended up in The US, by the way.
Don't think I would have ever come to The US,take my PE license, and they told me that my
bachelor's degree from Nigeria was no longeraccredited because my school hadn't paid some

(42:16):
dues.
So I'm like, man, I gotta get a degree fromsomewhere where nobody's ever gonna question
that I am a mechanical engineer.
So I decide to apply for my master's degree.
I had, I applied to four schools, Institute ofTechnology, New York, Ohio State, the Buckeyes,
Sunny Buffalo, and Michigan State.

(42:38):
And I had offer letters with scholarships andall that other stuff from all four schools.
Here's what happened.
I got letters from first, I think think Teefirst responded, then Ohio State, then it was
Sunny Buffalo.
And I was holding on and I refused to acceptany of the other three.
And I kept telling my wife, Listen, I amwaiting for Michigan State.

(43:00):
I want to go to Michigan State.
And she kept asking me, Why?
And I said, Look, I don't know what they'regoing to offer me, but I'm waiting for them
because any time I sent out an email, whetherit was to the admissions office or whether I
sent it to the head of the department formechanical engineering or Doctor.
Foss's lab where I was hoping to work with formy master's thesis, would get a response back

(43:21):
within the hour.
Thereby, somebody would respond back and say,Got your email, we check into it, and I will
let you know later on.
Right?
I would get a response.
I held on and then accepted Michigan State.
Was interesting, when we first came to The US,I had no idea where the Michigan State

(43:43):
University was.
It was in East Lansing.
At that time, this like late nine, right?
I don't think we had Google Maps at that point.
I mean, I don't think Google existed.
I mean, I have a Yahoo email, and I reallydidn't look on the map to see where East
Lansing is.
And my flight from Malaysia went from Malaysiato Tokyo, from Tokyo to Detroit, and I had a
connecting flight from Detroit to East Lansing.

(44:05):
Think about that.
Guys know how the distance between East Lansingis 80 miles.
It's like we sat in the airport for about twoor three hours for this connecting flight and
we walk out to the Tower Mark and there is thisteeny little plane that will take like six or
seven people, right?

(44:26):
And we get in this plane and it's on a Sundayand it takes off from Detroit.
I don't think it goes more than five or 10,000feet.
And we're just flying over all these farmlands.
And my wife's looking at me and saying, wherethe heck are we going?
I love Michigan State because
my brother-in-law is are both are both,Michigan State alums.

(44:49):
So I frequently text them anytime MichiganState, sports does anything good.
I'm like, oh, are you burning couches today?
That's all I know about Michigan State.
So it's the the totality
of what I was there when we won the NCAAchampionship, by the way.
And so so I was there when that
saw tons of couches being burned.
I also was there when Tom Brady came into his,you know, his performance thing because we

(45:11):
played Michigan State versus Michigan.
It was my first football game.
Tom Brady came in, I think, third quarter orsomething and almost won, and I was like, holy
smokes.
I'm gonna be following that guy.
Right?
That's awesome.
Yeah.
So so, obviously, the good people, that was abig pull for Lacey.

(45:32):
So you're in the controls, so I gave a littlebit more background.
You're in the controls industry.
You meet Lenny.
He seems like a good person like you.
They seem to be doing some cool stuff.
What sent it over the top for you?
What what made made made Bidtracer the landingspot that you wanted to go to?
Because I think that there was gonna be growthand change with Bidtracer that I was able and I

(45:57):
had worked for my old company for over tenyears, and I was just kind of in a rut.
So for me personally, I was like, I wanna bechallenged.
I wanna be able to have fun and talk aboutbringing customers like solutions.
Because I'd I'd had a lot of that experience inmy previous job.
And I had just kind of brought on this solutionto a large customer and we had completed it.

(46:17):
And so I was kind of, like, just kinda standingstill for a little bit.
When Lenny came on, he was like, Lacey, youwork for us, and you could keep doing that and
bringing these solutions to other customers.
And so after a year of talking, I I just said,alright.
Let's do this.
I'm ready.
But a year of talking.
So, so being so being challenged though, that'sa big thing.

(46:38):
I think especially leaders, I think we canforget sometimes where it's like, yeah, like
people that are driven wanna be challenged andit's not like, let me just do the same thing or
let me top out.
I when I worked at a law firm many, many, manyyears ago, I did literally every year I was
just getting promoted to new things.
And it was like, I went across the entireadministrative side, which was great, but then

(46:59):
I hit the end because I certainly wasn't gonnabecome an attorney.
I was zero interested in that life, but I hitthe top and then it becomes like, oh, this
becomes a lot less motivating, right?
For, and again, a young professional at thatpoint where it was like, I am stuck because I'm
no longer challenged because I've literallydone the gamut upon where you're going to take
me.
So I think that that is a big thing wherepeople, oh, obviously there's, you know,

(47:22):
salaries and benefits and all those kinds ofthings.
And like, is it a good fit?
But it is the, what can, what can we do tochallenge you and how can we help you Yeah.
I didn't want to look back and say, well, Istayed in this position because it gave me so
many PTO days.
And I was like, that's not really why I wannastay.
I mean, I love where I was, but I didn't wantthat to be the reason why I stuck around

(47:43):
because, you know so I was like, I really wantsomething different.
And long term, this is the the better call forme.
Yeah.
Not to put you on the spot, Lenny.
Did it work out so far?
Has worked out perfectly.
The question is to Lacey if she's beingchallenged or not.
You know?
That's that's a question.
Lacey, are you being challenged?
I like that we're mediating this now.
This is amazing.
We've never mediated Will.
This is fun.

(48:04):
Very much so, Lenny.
Yes.
We'll talk later.
But, yes, in a good way.
In a very good way.
You know, there's days where I'm put outside mycomfort zone, which is good for me.
So, yeah, That's good.
It's working out, Justin.
Not too much out of
the comfort Good.
I'm glad to
hear Yeah.
I know.
Maci does if Maci doesn't like working for theTracer aspect, maybe she can join the music

(48:27):
industry and go to those concerts that I wasgoing to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wanna talk a little bit because I think theindustry you get a little bit smarter, and
they're starting to consider things likecybersecurity.
Right?
And so how are you addressing the concerns ofthe industry around cybersecurity with what you

(48:50):
guys are doing?
Cybersecurity is definitely a big thing.
No question about it.
Right?
And the more things are gonna get connected,the harder it's going to be.
We within Bitracer, we have everything, youknow, hosted at Rackspace.
Within Rackspace itself, they have their SOCtwo, SOC three, all of those compliances.
And in addition to that, we have an externalcompany that we hire, a consulting firm.

(49:13):
And it's not just a consulting firm.
It is a it is a company that actively tries tohack into the Bitracer tool.
For those for those
that for those that don't know or don'tunderstand why that's happening, essentially
penetration testing.
Penetration testing for for short.

(49:33):
It's a way for instead of you actually hiring agood guy to act like a bad guy, but the only
difference is that they're not actually goingto ransom you or pull pull the data out.
They're gonna essentially kind of one way is tosort of create holes or look for those holes
where they can be created.
Common, especially for software, but it getscommon the larger you are as a company because

(49:59):
it's a way to manage risk.
Ultimately, around risk and risk management iscybersecurity.
So the way I would, you know, relate it to theconstruction industry is for anyone that has to
deal with the EMR, essentially a number.
It's a number for safety, like physical safety,right?
You have to train for it.

(50:20):
You have to do you have everyone's kind ofaccountable for it.
Have to accountability.
You ultimately have people like safety safetyprofessionals that are accountable.
But seeing the number of incidents, the deaths,where this comes down to.
So if you put so digital safety is the sort ofthe cybersecurity side.

(50:42):
There are ways to deal with that, the riskmanagement, etcetera.
Compliance, the actual ideology and frameworkshowcasing that you have a process, you have a
way of doing things.
Right?
And it's a standardized process and sort ofbeing able to showcase what you are or are not
doing.
I wanted to kind of talk a whole lot about iton the show.

(51:04):
And so I wanted to give a little bit ofbackground.
We've planned it to nontechnical constructionprofessionals.
Sorry, Lenny.
No.
No.
No.
No.
Will, it's perfect.
At some point in time, I'm going to take thatsection of the podcast, and we are going to use
it for marketing, just so you know.
So thank you for that.

(51:24):
Love it.
Most people do not understand what's going onin the cybersecurity area.
They don't understand what the compliances do,and particularly penetration testing, right,
and what that really means, right?
Because you're doing penetration testing, yourcompany, you are taking an active interest in
the cybersecurity of your system, and you haveto be ready.

(51:44):
You have to be ready to hear that your stuff isnot secure, or it is secure, or whatever it is,
because when they get in, you're gonna have toaddress it.
You're gonna have to deal with it, right?
And here's the crazy thing as well, is thatwhen we do these penetration testing, and like
I said, we've got a company that does it fulltime with some of the larger clients that we
have, they wanna get access to the reports onit.

(52:05):
So guess what?
They can go and look at the reports and theysee, Oh, they succeeded in this day, or they
did not succeed.
See what I mean?
So it is a risky venture where you are puttingyour neck on the line, but if you've done all
the due diligence, if you've done all thethings you're supposed to be doing, then you
should not be afraid to do it.
Right?
It also becomes a sales tool if you've done itwell.

(52:26):
It's like, someone going through your, throughyour underwear or sock drawer.
Right?
Like, it is could be very invasive.
Right?
And you have no idea until you get that reportand you're like, oh, if I wanna let anyone else
know.
But it but the should be treated, right, isYeah.
Is for always there.
Right?
Now you know about them.

(52:46):
Now you have a road map because for, like, nontechnical, you know, leap is, like, how much
should I be spending on should I be spending onmy cybersecurity?
Testaments, pen testing, these are all ways toactually answer that question.
And it's a and it is and it's for sure, it's aprocess.
It is not a one time deal.

(53:08):
It's not a, I'm gonna buy this thing, thistool, or this whatever, and it's done.
It is a continual process in the in the sameway that, like like, insurance deals with
workers' comp, and workers' comp directlyrelates to safety.
Right?
So that whole aspect can apply to, you know,digital secure digital safety or aka

(53:29):
cybersecurity.
Right.
And I tell you, there's the the constructionindustry should not be afraid to embrace
technology as a result because ofcybersecurity.
They just need to find the right partners thatare doing it right, really adopt technologies.
Because, I mean, within what we do at Bitracer,we save so many man hours.

(53:50):
It is crazy.
Right.
And for those people that do not know, forthose people that do not know, not, you know,
when they don't know how much they could besaving, they really don't know.
Right.
But if they did, it would be a different story,right?
Sadly, in the industry, what's been happeningis that nobody's adopting technology, only
about 20% of the folks adopting technology, sothe rest of the 80 are just muddling along with

(54:15):
their old tools.
So in the competitive arena, it doesn't seemlike they're getting overtaken.
However, they're getting overtaken veryquickly.
What they don't realize is that we are nowbuilding AI into a tool.
So now that we build AI into a tool, all of asudden you are going to see the gaps that they

(54:36):
have.
And now, instead for them to take three stepsto get to where they need to be, they will now
have to take 10 steps at once to prevent themfrom even existing.
It's wild what AI is able to do and how they'reable to utilize AI.
It is scary
and wild.
We call it technology debt.
Yeah.

(54:57):
Well put.
Technology debt is a it it can crush a companyand both on the productivity side of IT, but
then in the cyber side as well.
Because to your point, multiple layers thenhave updates and and fixing things that
shouldn't don't connect anymore because you'resix versions behind.
And then it's like, oh, well, that's not gonnawork with these three different things.
And then you have to update these threedifferent things.

(55:18):
And then it creates a giant really, just agiant pain in the ass.
Yeah.
But we we are getting low on time, so I wannamake sure that we hit our last question for
both of you.
And maybe Lacey will let you go first.
If you could go back twenty years, what advicewould you give yourself?
Gosh.
Okay.
That can't no.
What advice would I give myself if I go backtwenty years ago?

(55:40):
That'd been 02/2005.
Well, I mean, I give this advice to my kidsnow.
Right?
It's all gonna work out.
Okay?
Don't stress about it.
It's all gonna work out.
Nobody's dying.
That's probably what I would say is because I'dsay that to my kids.
It's all gonna work out.
I love that.
That's a good mindset to have.

(56:00):
About you, like stress out because they'regoing to college and stuff.
It's all gonna work out.
It'll be fine.
Oh, yeah.
As
long as they get into Arizona State, that'swhen you know it makes sense.
Yeah, twenty years ago, 02/2004, 02/2005,right?
I'm trying to remember where in my career Iwas, and I'm very much on the intellectual
knowledge side of things in general.

(56:23):
I think it's more or less what I wish I hadknown more than anything else, right?
The standpoint that it took me a journey from,you know, starting off as a project engineer to
a project manager and taking on different rolesto appreciate layers of processes and
structures and how to handle people along thisjourney to a point whereby you could

(56:47):
potentially have a company that is worth a fewbillion dollars and you feel comfortable
managing it, right?
I wish, I wish back then there was a sourcewhereby I could have learned about the
different types of processes and structuresthat need to exist depending on the size of a
company that I could have studied.

(57:08):
Because just as innovative as I think I am andas accepting as I think I am in terms of
getting feedback and all of that stuff, I canalso be pretty stubborn, right?
I can also be pretty stubborn and strongheaded.
So, when there were folks that gave me adviceon, Hey, I think you should do it this way.
If I couldn't understand it, I fought it.

(57:30):
I was like, Why would I do that?
Right?
And then a few months into it, I'm like, man,yeah, you should have, you know, you should
have followed that advice.
So I wish there's a roadmap.
I really wish, as you guys do this podcast ofbuilding scale, because building scale, can
build scale from a small company, from a mediumcompany, from a large company, you always want

(57:50):
to build scale.
And what you talk about people processtechnology, what does it look like at these
different levels, right?
So the future guys could read through it.
I mean, if you if you like to read your note,then you could possibly read through what's
written there and try to try to learn and youdon't have to learn the painful way.
Right?
That's what we literally make the podcast for.

(58:13):
It's literally simple of, hey, you have learnedsomething from another leader.
Oh, that's what we hope.
That's what me and Will always hope that, like,hey, this is just giving back to somebody that,
like, you you are removing what we call theentrepreneurial tax.
Isn't that right, Will?
Entrepreneurial tax is a very, very painful taxthat no one talks about anywhere.

(58:34):
And entrepreneur understands this.
And, you know, some people call it the stupidtax.
It's really hard to be stupid.
You've never lived it or experienced it, and noone's taught you.
You're paying the tax by paying through themost painful way possible.
So listening to any of these episodes, usually,there's a nugget or two or three, sometimes

(58:56):
six.
That's why we keep these podcasts as long asthey are because the stories, the enormous
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the wealth of experience that's in behindthose words.
Awesome.
I'll tell you that tax you're talking about.
I'm I'm kind of I was gonna add on.
I'm kind of fortunate that I experienced thatwhile I was still working at a corporation.
Right?

(59:16):
So for the entrepreneurs out there, when you'restarting from scratch and you have to learn
those lessons on your dime, it is really rough.
Right?
So so I have just
The tax search more when it's your when yourpocket is getting impacted for sure.
Lessons just keep getting larger as as thecompany gets larger.
Oh, man.
Oh, okay.
Don't even get me started that.

(59:37):
Don't try to add them up.
That's that's what we that's one big advice wegive.
Don't try to add up all the the dollars thatcould have been because that that'll just hurt
your There's only bigger ones to come.
This has been a ton of fun.
Thank you so much, both of you.
If somebody wanted to get ahold of each of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
You can go to bittracer.com.
You can also find us on LinkedIn.

(59:58):
Both of us are on LinkedIn, with our contactinformation listed there as well.
Cool.
Cool.
I'm gonna drop all the links in the show notes,so that'll be good.
And then do you have anything else you'd liketo tell the people before we say goodbye?
Thanks for watching.
Emails within an hour.
I you can call me on my cell phone.
Yeah.
We provide solutions.
Yeah.
Reach out to us.

(01:00:19):
Reply.
And we are nice people.
We are good people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good people who reply.
Those are very important things.
Right.
Okay.
I love this.
Listeners, I hope you had as much of a goodtime as me and Will did talking to Lacey and
Lenny here today.
And until next time, adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on

(01:00:43):
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.

(01:01:08):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.