December 3, 2024 • 54 mins
Aaron Moore discusses his entrepreneurial journey, sharing insights from corporate America that shaped PPD Painting. He delves into scaling the business with a unique team and expanding into new markets, highlighting effective marketing strategies and the importance of employee accountability. Aaron addresses balancing emotions in business, managing opportunity costs, and making strategic decisions for growth. He emphasizes the value of forming industry associations, peer groups, and utilizing outside consulting. The conversation covers team development, adopting new technologies, fostering innovation, and building customer relationships, while exploring pricing strategies and recurring revenue models.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that for me, that entrepreneurial taxcame in the form of litigation.
Right?
That's what I would say is a expensive lessonlearned.
Have you ever wondered how architecture,engineering, and construction companies scale
their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
(00:23):
company?
Well, then you are in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forat.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
(00:47):
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
(01:11):
Just go to building scale dot net slash help.
Today's guest is Aaron Morrath, the founder andpresident of PPD painting.
A company celebrated for its excellence andrapid growth in the commercial painting
industry.
PPD has been named in the ink 5000 fastestgrowing companies list 6 times, received Inks
(01:32):
Higher Power Award, and earned 5 APC MagazineTop Job Awards showcasing a steadfast
commitment to quality and innovation.
Beyond his company, Aaron is a cofounder of theCommercial Painting Industry Association,
fostering global connections among industryleaders through events and peer groups.
He's also a frequent contributor to industrypublications, including Inc Magazine, American
(01:54):
Paint Contractor, Inpaint, Commercial PaintingMagazine, and Coatings Pro.
And additionally, Aaron is the cohost of theCommercial Painting Podcast where he shares
insights and experiences from his career.
Aaron's passion for service extends to hiscommunity.
As president of the Samuel Bell MemorialFoundation, he raises funds for underprivileged
youth and advocates for bicycle safety, amission inspired by a loss of a dear friend in
(02:19):
a cycling accent.
And with all that said, Aaron, welcome to theshow.
Full bio.
Thanks, Justin.
Glad to be here.
Don't mess around.
I when I went through all of it, I was like,wow, this is all great.
Why what am I gonna cut out of this?
This is all all good stuff.
So I said these fun things, but tell us, how doyou get in the industry?
How did this all start, this crazy idea ofentrepreneurship in, commercial painting?
(02:41):
Yeah.
For sure.
I was thinking about it a little bit last nightbefore we had the call.
And, I mean, I really think that, you know,you're kind of people like this are born this
way, right?
Like who would, you know, who would wanna takeon all that stuff?
You just have to kind of be born with that sortof compulsion to do these things.
So, you know, how it started for me, I was Iwanted to back up a little bit because I we
(03:03):
talked about it yesterday.
I went right into painting and I was thinking,you know, when I was a kid, my parents would
always say, this is our son, Aaron.
He's gonna be a politician or a preacher.
You know?
And I think like an entrepreneur is not too farfrom that.
Right?
You're always trying to influence people andmake friends and smile in, and, you know,
that's kinda how it works, shaking hands,kissing babies.
So, you know, that was kind of my that was kindof my background.
And when people would ask me what I wanna bewhen I grow up, I said a millionaire by 30.
(03:26):
You know, that was as a kid.
Because so I didn't really have a there wasn'treally a, like, an affinity for a certain I
didn't wanna be a fireman or I didn't wanna bea painter.
I just I wanted to be, I wanted to be abusinessman.
It's kind of that's where it all started, and II fell into the painting industry, after I got
out of college.
I have a degree in finance, and, buddy of minehad a painting company and said, you know, hey.
(03:48):
I'll give you half of this thing to come be mypartner, and, you know, away went the
entrepreneurial journey.
If I knew what I know now, I probably wouldhave hoped you as an electrician instead of a
painter.
I think it's more lucrative, but this is whereI wound up and so I'm making the most of it.
Well, as an entrepreneur, you can always startan electric company, just so you know.
That's yeah.
I need another business.
(04:08):
Like, I need another all of my
Yeah.
You're not doing enough based on what I said.
You need I need another business.
And it is missing one thing.
I also own a campground out in Montana that Irun too.
Well, but of course.
There's always a a side hustle, you know,that's happening that we don't necessarily talk
about.
Yeah.
So, explain this this crazy idea, theentrepreneurial way.
(04:30):
When we talked initially, you said, I'munemployable in corporate America.
You said that directly, which I love.
So what does that mean?
Like, what is what does that mean as as ourlisteners think about them being entrepreneurs,
and, like, what does that look like for you?
You know, when I think about corporate America,I think about celebrating mediocrity.
You know, that's what I would say is, like,like, if you don't make any waves, if you don't
(04:52):
cause any problems, if you just do your job, bequiet, show up on time, leave maybe a half hour
after it on time, you know, you get rewarded inthe in corporate America.
And I don't think that the entrepreneur seesthings like that.
We we we see things a little bit outside thebox and, like, how do we break all the rules,
tear this thing down, and make double when wewalk away from it in a week?
(05:13):
You know?
So that's not exactly celebrated.
And after a couple of corporate stints of notworking out, I think I realized that, like and
I was a proven performer, so I couldn't quiteunderstand, like, how could you let go the
highest performing guy on the team?
And it was like, because you make too muchnoise performing, like, and and that's just not
for me.
So that's when I kind of realized I'm probablynot the most employable guy just because I'm
(05:36):
not gonna follow the rules and I'm not gonnaI'm just gonna do what it takes to get the job
done and do it at the highest level possible.
So I look for the situations where thoserewards and when you're an entrepreneur, if you
crush it, you reap the rewards.
That's how it works.
All that noise is probably from the idea thatyou were gonna be a preacher or politician.
So they're generally you know, a lot of noisecome from them too.
(05:59):
So, you know, you must have learned something.
I mean okay.
First off, finance to something in theconstruction world, that's not always a leap
that you hear.
Right?
Talking about numbers and then paintingcompany.
So there had to be some sort of draw there.
And on top of it, not everything can be bad.
Was there anything that you drew from to helpgrow the company?
(06:23):
Yeah.
So I think one of the really things fromcorporate America and the corporate jobs that I
had that I drew was, you know, theprofessionalized training.
Right?
Like, so when you look at sales systems or,like, how to sell, they have a definitive
system of, like, here's our professional salessystem or here's our Sandler training or here's
you know, so and and I don't think that youhave to like, I don't believe that those all
(06:44):
have to be followed in a singular manner, butyou pull pieces from each of those and over
time, you develop your sales kind of swaggerand how that works.
So I would say that, like, that gave mecertainly a great foundation for, like, how am
I going to look at sales in a more analyticalmanner than just, like, I'm going out and
selling and making friends.
If you can make there's a lot of people thatare really good at making friends but really
(07:07):
bad at closing sales.
So I think that, you know, for me, it reallygave me the framework to close deals, not just
get in front of deals, but to close deals.
And so I think that that was helpful in thecorporate America side.
So how does that translate to I mean, you'vegot a team, I believe, salespeople at this
(07:27):
point.
How does that train translate then to yoursales team?
You know, what learning lessons have you kindalearned between your experience as well as
making your way?
Well, I think that that is one of the thingsthat's the biggest challenge with scale.
Right?
Is you know, and I think I I mentioned to youwhen we were doing the for prior to this that,
(07:47):
you know, we've kinda built this team ofunicorns.
We have all great people, we have greatsalespeople, but it's probably not the most
scalable model because at some point, we haveto look and break down, like, what are the
skills that make these people unicorns, andthen how do we find those people in a
repeatable manner?
And so that's kind of where we are in ourcompany today is really looking at and breaking
(08:09):
down and building out that sales playbook,which, you know, I wish I could tell you this
is the result of it.
But, you know, we're entrepreneurs, and we'removing through day as we go.
So the truth of the matter is I'm midwaythrough that process.
And so, hopefully, you have me back in a yearor 2, and I can report back good news about it.
But I think that identifying that that isprobably a blind spot in our organization over
(08:31):
time to be able to say, okay.
We're gonna address this issue if we're gonnascale this business is was probably that
foundation was laid by working for the bigcompanies that understand they have scaled
their businesses, and they do do that, and theybring everybody in.
And the 1st day, you're sitting in a salestraining.
You're not going out and selling.
It doesn't matter if you're selling, you know,web ads or if you're selling, you know, high
(08:55):
dollar ticket items.
You still have this basis that you get to thatyou start from in corporate America, and we
need to do that as an organization internallyfor PPD.
So you said, you know, that it's hard to scaleunicorns, but wouldn't unicorns be rock stars?
So aren't they able to sell a lot within anorganization?
(09:17):
So is it the is the problem that there isn'tenough unicorns out there?
Or talk a little bit more about that.
Yeah.
Well, I would say that the thing is that theunicorn isn't in this scenario or what how I'm
referring to it, they don't all have a singularskill set.
Right?
So you go, alright.
Will has this skill set that makes him kill itat sales here.
(09:40):
Justin has these awesome relationships withthis other world that makes him kill it right
here.
And that, you know, and so on and so forth.
So you don't have, like, okay.
We're all kind of have this unified USP thatwe're going out to the marketplace with, and
we're going after this set customer, this bluechip, or this, you know, ideal customer profile
(10:00):
and with a united front.
And that's what I mean by, like, the unicornsis we're kind of a little fragmented and, you
know, maybe you kill it in one area and theykill it in another area.
But are those the areas that we even wanna befocused on?
And I think we have to start there.
It's, totally to the point of just because youcan sell a thing doesn't necessarily mean
that's the thing we should be selling rightnow.
Right?
Like, hey.
(10:21):
Like, if you don't have an office in, I don'tknow, Alaska, for instance, and you say, hey.
Like, we're not gonna do Alaska deals right nowbecause, it doesn't matter that you found 1, or
maybe it does, right, depending on the size ofit and all those different things.
But as an example of, like, there are thingsjust because you can sell an idea to somebody
that's willing to give you money doesn't alwaysmean that you should do it right now if there's
(10:42):
no other processes in place or, like,delivering the outcome that, you know, there's
a certain quality that you're trying todeliver.
And if it's, like, in a remote area that you'relike, I don't know.
I have no idea how the hell we're gonna dothis.
It becomes like, well, that wasn't the bestdeal to sell.
But, Justin, I like selling ice to Eskimos.
Yeah.
Seriously.
So, Aaron, so these different skill sets,you're kind of putting this process together.
(11:06):
Outside of identifying unicorns, what have beensort of the major points or to get to the point
of this is now scalable?
What what do you what would you describe then Iam now able to scale?
And it's okay that you're in the process.
I think you've probably you've been around theblock.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I have a pretty straightforward answerfor that.
I mean, you know, it it was kind of anaccidental thing.
(11:28):
As with most things, it's like trial and error.
So we got a customer of ours went toCincinnati.
We were a Chicago based company.
They went to Cincinnati and said, hey.
We're buying a portfolio of buildings.
Are you interested in looking at it?
So I went down.
I looked at it.
It was a good job.
And I and he said, okay.
Well, this was at fall at the time.
And he said, well, it doesn't it's not gonnahappen till spring.
(11:49):
It was an exterior paint job, so we couldn't doit in the winter.
And he's like, so if you want it, it's yours.
We have the price.
It's approved.
We can use a local contractor down there, butwe really, like, trust you.
So we like the work that you do.
So what we did is I turned on my marketingmachine starting in, like, October that year
and said, if we can drum up leads and I wentback and forth every other week myself just
(12:13):
trying to sell work or send an estimator downand just try to kinda feel out the market.
And we found that, hey.
We have something here.
We we were able to walk into that market with 3quarters of $1,000,000 in work backlog start
for the summer, and then we just went for it.
And I think that we definitely had some hiccupsalong the way and staffing challenges and who
(12:33):
do we put there, and, you know, we had someturnover, and there there was some challenges
to it.
And then all of a sudden, it, like, clicked.
We got the right person.
We got the right stuff.
We got the right staff in place, and it was,like, 2 years in, and all of a sudden, it was
like, boom.
That worked.
And we're like, okay.
Now we can replicate.
I think we could do that again.
You know?
Like, once it you forget we have very shortmemories.
Right?
(12:53):
So you forget about, like, the 2 years of pain.
When you get that one day that it all worksright, it's kinda like golf.
You know, you pretty much suck, but you makethat one good shot and you're like, I like
golf.
But then you hack the next 3 into the woods,and then you then it lets you have one good
shot into the green, and you're like, I'mpretty good at this game.
I could be good at this.
You know?
So we forget about that stuff.
And I think that that's kind of how that piecewent.
(13:16):
And so we try to put some parameters around it,and we've opened a couple offices since, and
we've learned some stuff there.
And when those go right, it'll probably be thesame memory curve.
It'll be like, oh, that was easy, and youforget about the 2 years of shit you went
through.
What was the strategy to open the otheroffices?
Obviously, Cincinnati won.
You had a client that said, hey.
I gotta put out a bunch of work for you to do.
(13:37):
That seems like the best, you know, scenario.
But what about some of the other offices?
Yeah.
So, really, I think Montana was because I movedout here.
Right?
So I live in Montana full time.
I travel back and forth to Chicago and Cincyfor work.
And so after 6 years of being here and meetingthe people and not doing any business and
people knowing who I was, it was kinda like,well, I have this network here.
(13:59):
Why would I not utilize it?
Now I would say that I broke kind of a cardinalrule.
Right?
It doesn't fit our market.
It doesn't fit who we are.
It's not really the market that we are used toserving.
So it's been it's been a challenge.
Right?
Because I think, like, when we now we'relooking at it as, okay.
We want a market that's no more than 2 hoursfrom our furthest office.
(14:22):
Right?
So, you know, when when Indy, Columbus, thosefit in that parameter.
Right?
They're close to Chicago.
They're close to Cincinnati.
They have representative populations similar toCincinnati where we had success, where we moved
out here, and there's a population of a 100000total people.
Like, we have tourism, but it's a totallydifferent market.
So I think one of the things lessons learnedthere now while we're not abandoning Montana
(14:45):
and we're having a lot of success here, but Ithink a part of that is that I actually live
here, and I'm kind of the driving force behindit.
And but looking at okay.
What are the things that made it successful?
I think that those tier 2 markets, I think we'dstruggle in one of the tier one.
Like, Chicago is a very difficult market ifyou're not from there.
You don't see a lot of out of state paintingcompanies opening in Chicago.
(15:07):
You see a ton of out of state paintingcompanies opening in Nashville.
Right?
So, like, a tier 2 market with a little lesssaturation and a little less competition can
really make a big difference when you come inwith the backbone of a larger company.
So I think mapping that out and looking at whatis our actual target, Do those clients exist
(15:27):
there?
How many square foot of industrial real estateis there in that city?
Does it make so how many what's the hotpopulation?
And we can look at the market and say thismakes sense.
And then is it accessible from one of our otheroffices?
So if something goes wrong, we can bail it outquickly.
So those are some of the things that we'relooking at in this kind of scale and expansion.
Quick.
You've mentioned tier 1, tier 2 market.
(15:48):
How do you define that?
And is there a tier 3?
There are certainly all t there there's manytiers.
Right?
I mean, I just look at tier 1, I think, is, youknow, cities over a few 1000000 people.
Right?
So, you know, your New York, your Dallas, yourAtlanta, your Chicago, your LA, your Seattle,
those are kind of what I would consider tier 1.
(16:10):
I also think that many of the tier 1 citieshave a strong union component, in the trades.
That makes a difference for scale and makes adifference for market entering a market.
Our tier 2 markets are gonna be metros in themillion ish range.
Right?
So for us.
Now I'm not saying that this isn't like, youcan't Google that and find.
(16:31):
That's just what I'm referring to when I referto them.
Makes sense.
You also mentioned a a marketing machine.
When since I mean, you're popping up inCincinnati.
What does that mean?
What does I mean, I everybody wants a marketingmachine.
And if you can just call on it whenever youneed it, that that sounds very, very scalable.
Easier said than done.
But Of course.
(16:51):
It's not a magic machine.
But, I mean, you know, it's sourcing andutilizing email marketing to get to our target
clients.
So looking at who's our you know, we're arepaying contractor primarily.
So we we look for opportunities in repaying andmaintenance.
So who are our clients?
Our clients are, you know, owners of realestate portfolios, multifamily property
(17:12):
managers, facility managers.
Those are kind of like the titles that we'relooking for.
So we start to go through, like, a platformlike ZoomInfo, extract data, start emailing.
So those emailing sequences are prettysuccessful for us, and so that's one of the
things that we turn on early.
And then getting a small physical locationwhere we have an address, and we could put
(17:33):
together a Google map pack and doing thosethings to give us a local presence and then
building a landing page onto our site to saywe're we're working here now, doing an
announcement to our client base via our emailnewsletter.
So it's kind of a multifaceted approach to,like, letting people know.
And then, you know, even though the client maybe Chicago client that gets, hey, we opened an
(17:54):
indie, many of those clients, you know what Imean?
Prologis has buildings all over the world.
Now you're doing indie.
Let me introduce you to somebody.
You know, with with our bank accounts, 5th 3rdor some of those types of accounts where you
would have Bank of America, you know, they havelocate dispersed footprints, so now you can
pick up another region.
So those are kind of the things that I meanwith our marketing.
I would call it a machine, but I wouldn't saythat it's like, it's a it's just an automated
(18:16):
approach.
It's kind of a multifaceted in differentdivisions.
No.
That makes sense.
And what do you have a process like, hey.
In the 1st 90 days, 100 days of opening anoffice that you have a like, a game plan now
that you've done it a couple times?
Yeah.
So that's a good question because we actuallyjust I just finished it.
(18:38):
You know, you guys are on the podcast, but thisis what I'm working on.
So it's on my desk right here.
So we did put together, like, a 90 day playbookwhere we outlined, you know, here's what we
want our the first hire in that market to do tobe successful.
And it comes along with some KPIs, someindicators for us to see, like, okay.
Are you making the calls?
(18:59):
Are you doing the messaging?
Are you having the touches?
Are you reaching out to new clients?
And then it also shows, like, what are thegoals of that?
So is it to get 10 estimates this week?
Is it to get 2 estimates this week?
Is it to close one deal?
So, you know, an example on that, you know, Ican because I have it right here.
I can tell you, you know, it's about listbuilding, but, you know, we have it week by
(19:19):
week.
So here's week 4.
Keep making 20 qualified calls per day,continue handwritten notes, follow-up with
potential customers from week 3, focus onclosing deals, aiming to reach a total of 5 by
the end of the month, review your progress, andidentify areas for improvement.
So, like, that would be his week 4 or her week4.
So, like, building that out, and then it's verydefined.
So they can just check kind of, okay.
(19:40):
I've done this this week.
And then when we have feedback calls, you know,a, take some of the own stuff of me or a
trainer because I'm only so one person with alimited amount of time.
So I can't be if you wanna have 3 people goingthrough this process, I don't have the time to
hold their hand every single day.
So this allows them to work autonomously.
(20:01):
Like, I think one of the guys I don't know.
You guys might know Nick from Mick's Pizza, buthe kinda coined the term he coined the term
what did he say?
Trust and track versus command and control.
Right?
So, like, if we can give them the program andtrust them to follow it and then just track,
are they doing the things that are listed inthe program, then there's really no it takes
the emotion out of it.
(20:22):
It takes all of it.
It just makes life easy.
So that's really our goal.
I love how you talked.
So trust and track versus command and control.
Part of really what's being talked about thereis accountability, holding someone accountable,
which is arguably one of the hardest things todo with people in a business is to understand
(20:44):
that aspect.
Right?
The employee is going, okay, what do I need todo?
And if there's a misalignment in expectationsor if there's a misalignment between what the
company is and what the employee thinks, thenusually there's a failure somewhere.
Right?
So and you're just one person.
So how do you make sure what what has been, youknow, tried, proven way around holding someone
(21:11):
accountable versus where you had to learn fromthose mistakes?
The answer to that is actually very simple.
It's really about the set expectations.
Right?
So, like, if you don't define the expectationsand you don't have the things that are clear to
track, then it makes that you could trust them,but if they don't know what they're supposed to
be doing, like you said, well, what am Isupposed to do?
Well, if you lay it out so that a child couldunderstand it, then there's really no it's not
(21:36):
hard to track.
And if you can put a KPI around it, like make20 calls a day, I can say, Justin, how many
calls did you make today?
And they're like, I'm not sure.
Okay.
Well, that isn't the answer that we're lookingat.
That's not 20.
So tomorrow, you're going to write down andyou're going to report back to me who you
called.
Like, I trusted you to make the calls.
I asked you to make the calls.
(21:57):
You didn't have the answer.
Now you're gonna have to we're gonna addanother layer.
You're gonna build a spreadsheet, and everytime you make a call, you're gonna put it in
there, and I'm gonna check it.
Because I trusted you at first, and now youdidn't do the work.
So now we have to put in another layer.
And so I think that that's a easy way to keepit from falling off.
And, like, now Justin shouldn't be mad at me.
I'm not we had an agreement.
You were gonna make 20 calls.
(22:18):
Did you or didn't?
I don't think there's any reason.
Like, there's not it's not a personal attack.
I could still like you, Justin.
I'm just upset because you're not following theprotocol and you're not having success.
And the other side of that coin is if I callJustin and I say, did you make 20 calls?
And he goes, no, but I closed a $2,000,000deal.
I don't care how many calls Justin made.
That's right.
Sales cures all
Results results talks.
(22:40):
Sales cures all ales.
Okay.
So I like to use the term entrepreneurial tax,and you kinda talked about it earlier.
But I want you know, what other places whentalking about the entrepreneurial tax, do you
have to learn from a scaling perspective?
And if you remember from our conversationbefore, there was one topic I wanna go over.
(23:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that for me, that entrepreneurial taxcame in the form of litigation.
Right?
That's what I would say is a expensive lessonlearned.
You know, you can be right and still lose, Ithink is one of the things, and that that
that's one of the things that I learned thehard way is that, like, no one cares if you're
right.
You know, there's either some deals some fightsyou can win, some fights you can't, and I
(23:26):
learned that even with clients.
You know?
And I try to tell my guys, you know, you'll getguys that are like you know, the clients may be
in the wrong, but you can prove that you'reright, but then they can never give you
business again.
So I did you win?
I don't know if you actually won.
And the same thing goes for litigation andattorneys and those sort of things is, you
know, I had a situation where, you know, wedon't feel that we were right.
(23:50):
We were set up on a job where they had nointention to pay, and it was a lot of money.
And, you know, when it came time to pay, we hadhad a conversation during the job where I was
suspicious of this individual.
They seemed to be acting in a very suspiciousmanner.
I had a gut feeling about it, and I had aconversation looking them in the eye saying,
like, are you going to pay me for this work, oris this a setup?
(24:11):
And they looked me in the eye and said, I'mnot.
So it was a personal vendetta almost at thatpoint, and I still ended up writing the check.
Like, I paid the attorneys.
I had to pay them off, and it wasn't because weweren't right.
It was just because it didn't matter.
It was big bad corporation against little momand pop, poor as me, and it wasn't that wasn't
the case, but that's how it was portrayed in acourt that was very not friendly to business.
(24:36):
So and an and a judge that was unprepared.
So it cost a lot of money.
It cost a lot of time, and I still wrote thecheck.
And I look back on that and think, you know,one of the one of my mentors said to me, big
boys write big checks sometimes, Aaron.
And that, you know, always resonated to me tothink, like, you know, sometimes even though
you're right, the opportunity cost of youremotional and just like, a that type of stuff
(25:02):
can just suck the life out of you.
And if you put that much energy into somethingproductive, right, I would have made 10 x the
money I needed to write that check if I neverput my energy into that and put it into
something that could have gone to making moremoney.
So I'd say, like, when we talk aboutentrepreneurial tax, that's what comes to mind
with me is those sorts of decisions that youjust have to learn over time and remove emotion
(25:23):
sometimes from some of these decisions.
Very much a ego, component there.
Right?
Like, I'm right in the prince the principle ofthe matter, and that's gonna then cost me more
than I would like in the long run.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So how
does someone decide where to draw the linebetween right and we'll call it the,
(25:47):
entrepreneurial tax of and just letting it go.
Because there's an emotional component, andyou're saying try not to be emotional.
I get it.
Well, I think you
have to look further
down the road.
To me, look further down the road.
Like, what is this how does this decisiondecision affect me down the road?
Right?
So, like, you cannot not pay us and not getsued.
(26:08):
We will sue you even though it doesn't makesense sometimes because we can't set a
precedent so you don't have to pay us.
So, like, when I look at that, I go, alright.
Yeah.
It doesn't make sense in this particular casethat for $10,000, we're gonna spend $5,000
suing this person.
That doesn't make sense.
But when I look at the what would happen if Ihad a reputation of you don't have to pay him,
(26:30):
That would probably hurt my business all theway down the road.
So that's a scenario where you look at it andyou go, okay.
Maybe that does make sense because we can'tallow this to be who we're gonna be for the
future.
So I think sometimes those decisions can bemade.
If there's a one off cut your losses, move on,it's not gonna affect your business moving
forward, then it probably isn't worth it.
(26:50):
But if it's gonna be something that like, adecision today is gonna affect you for the next
20, well, then you have to think about, is itreally about this decision, or is it about the
bigger picture?
And when you look at something like, you know,paying your bills, accounts receivable, that's
something about the whole picture, not justabout this one isolated incident.
Can you talk about because you said youmentioned something, opportunity costs.
(27:14):
Right?
So what are those opportunity costs?
Right?
And and going through the process for someonethat's never gone through the process or maybe
debating going through this process, they thinkthat they've thought it through.
What are the some of the opportunity costs thatare not necessarily written down?
Well, I mean, the in general, obviously, Ithink you understand opportunity costs.
Like, what I'm what I'm doing right now versuswhat I could be potentially doing.
(27:37):
Right?
So, you know, those opportunity costs, itdepends on sometimes it can be time.
I find that the one that is biggest for me isjust mental capacity.
Right?
Like, how much you know, we have a certainnumber of thoughts per day, whatever.
10,000 thoughts can go through your so how muchof my if we say, I don't know the exact number,
Tom Walter could tell you.
(27:57):
But if you you'd have a certain number ofthoughts that go through your head every single
day.
You have so if you're going to just take, say,the number's 10,000, and 35100 of these
thoughts are gonna be consumed by this negativething, The opportunity cost is, like, you could
be putting those 35100 you know, 30% of yourthoughts could be going to, how do I make more
(28:18):
money?
How do I make this business better?
How do I do better?
How do I spend better time with my wife andkids?
And, like, all the positive things that you canhave in life.
Or you can waste a third of those thoughts ondown this rabbit hole.
And what would be the outcome if I focus thosethoughts on these more positive things?
That's where I think it really changes thegame, and that's what you have to contemplate
(28:40):
when you're going.
Alright.
Am I gonna go down this, or am I not gonna godown this?
Because if it takes away from those things, youcan't get those thoughts back.
You can't get that time back.
You've lost that time and those thoughts, andthat's where why I refer to it as kind of an
opportunity cost.
Putting it.
It's not just it's not just time.
It's the energies.
The decision fatigue is what I like to call it.
For sure.
(29:00):
Too many too many things, too many paths.
That actually brings up how do you obviously,tons of decisions happen in a business every
day, when you think strategically, over time.
How do you identify the most important things?
Like, where what's the process of saying, like,I can only do so much stuff.
I need to do this over this.
That's a hard question to answer because a lotof times I find myself doing stuff I probably
(29:23):
should have done something else.
Right?
So, like, we try to I mean, I try to look atthe things that I have on my to do list and
take the crappiest one and do it first.
Alright.
And, like,
if I can get that out of the way, the hardestthing I have to do all day, if I can do that at
8:30 in the morning, then I feel like my daygets easier from there.
So if I have a hard phone call to make or Ihave something that I really am not looking
forward to doing, I just try to do that.
(29:45):
And I think that's one of the things where Idon't know if you guys have gotten into, like,
the cold plunge stuff, but that's one of thethings, like, you know, I go to the gym, I go
home, I sauna, I cold plunge, and then I go tothe office.
So, like, I do not like the cold plunge.
I do not wanna do it.
Like, I I look at that thing, and I thinkabout, like, Goggins talking to his running
shoes.
Like, I don't wanna do it.
(30:05):
But I'm like, I have to just do this becausethis is how I'm gonna get my brain.
And I don't know the I don't know about theinflammation and losing weight.
It hasn't really worked for me.
But I could tell you the brain piece of, like,doing the thing that you really despise doing
leaves me in a good mental place to head to theoffice.
So that's one thing I would say, and then justtrying to prioritize your tasks.
(30:25):
You know, I use a may I type calendar that setsup to due dates, and I prioritize high, medium,
low, and then it puts the stuff in front of methat I've marked as high in slots that I have
time to do it in.
And I try to organize myself that way.
I sometimes I get it done good and sometimesnot so good.
No.
But you're at least thinking about the conceptof the well, medium, you know, high, medium,
(30:46):
low.
Like, there are certain things that are morevaluable to do.
Obviously, getting out the thing that you hateto do or the biggest pain in the ass in the
morning has advantages throughout the rest ofthe day, so makes sense.
You know, something that we talked aboutbefore, I think this is a good way a place to
talk about it, is all these learning lessonsthat you've had.
You've been an EO, and you've also looked atother organizations, Fistage, YPO, etcetera.
(31:09):
So you decided to go your own path and createyour own association.
Why did you go down that path?
And, you know, what's the difference incomparison to things like EO Entrepreneurs
Organization?
Yeah.
Thanks, Will.
Thanks for that question because I I like toshare this what I'm up to with the association.
So we started the commercial painting industryassociation just to kind of bridge the gap.
(31:32):
So in our industry, we had a couple tradeassociations, and I was I was heavily involved
with because I was I came up as kind of a, youknow, pot and brush, you know, owner operator
painting company.
That's how I built this.
I mean, I started it with a paintbrush and abuddy.
So, you know, we and it was very instrumentalin my development, and I got to a certain point
where, like, we I ran out.
Like, I felt like I was just giving, and Ithere was no one there for me to get from.
(31:56):
And then, you know, we looked at there'sanother association in our industry that caters
to industrial contractors that paint likebridges, water towers, tanks.
And, you know, we saw this hole in the middleof resources for commercial painting
contractors.
And when I talk about commercial paintingcontractors, I talk about, you know,
architectural applications.
So you're thinking like wall paint, ceilingpaint, trim paint, interior, exterior, not like
(32:18):
industrial applications to non single familyresidents.
So that could be offices, churches, retailcenters, whatever.
That's that's my definition of commercialpainting just so so that we're on the same
page.
And I had utilized my experience with EO andthe and the forum experience, and I've been in
some other masterminds or peer groups.
(32:38):
You know, they have a lot of terms that theyuse for it.
But I had been in some of those, and I thought,you know, while EO is amazing and it gives you
access to, like, tons of blind spot coverageand feedback because you have all these
entrepreneurs, you have to be a founder to bepart of it.
So everyone has kind of the same, at somepoint, had that same seizure.
Like, I'm gonna go do this by myself.
And you have this conversation, but, you know,I might have a guy that's selling a a tech
(33:04):
platform.
I'm a painting contractor.
I've got a I got a tech guy.
I've got an IT guy.
I've got a marketing guy, and I got a guy thatsells wrenches, you know, or, you know, a
manufacturing guy.
And so there is I think all business kind oftopics do boil down to they they crossover.
They're very they very crossover betweenindustry.
(33:26):
But utilizing that same model in a industryspecific has its advantages too because we can
compare things like financials.
Right?
Like, where are your where is your gross profitas a percentage of your revenue?
Right?
So we can look at that, and we should be we'rein the same industry.
We should all be kind of close there.
So we can find and so there's some stuff thatwe can uncover.
(33:47):
So that was kind of the model behind it, andwe're up to 10 peer groups.
We have members from Australia, Germany, UK,US, Canada.
So, you know, it's really been a fun thing, andwe've we we have live events twice a year, and
we've done some off specialty events.
We toured the biggest painting company inAustralia.
We toured the biggest company in Germany for acouple weeks over the course of a couple years.
(34:10):
So it's been quite the ride, and I'm reallyenjoying it.
I get it.
Selfishly, I get a ton from it because I'm in apeer group, and I get to, you know, glean the
advice from people that are much wiser than Iam.
So can you talk a little bit about specificsaround value?
You gave me a story yesterday on what happened,and I thought it was super interesting.
(34:30):
Like, what's the difference between because ifyou really boil it down, if you take away the
product or the service, then all businessproblems are about the same.
Do you agree?
Yeah.
So then the industry specific stuff, which Ifound kind of fascinating, you gave kind of top
level, but I think you helped someone.
Talk to us a little bit about give a veryspecific version of that.
(34:50):
Yeah.
I mean, it kinda came back to like, I was Ibriefly talked about comparing financials.
Right?
So, you know, in one of our early meetings, wewere just talking about in roundabout ways, we
were comparing.
We we were still kinda getting to know eachother, so we were comparing financials on a
percentage basis.
So not numbers.
Like, I do this many millions, and this manymillions goes to this and whatever.
(35:12):
It was more about on a percentage basis, let'sjust pull our percent and say, this is our
overhead.
This is our, you know, our labor, ourmaterials, our subcontract, our marketing.
This is what we're spending on those things.
And and and one of the individuals in our groupwas about 15 points higher on material spend
than everybody else, and it was like, thatsounds strange.
(35:35):
And so we kinda came up with either someone wasstealing the pain out of the back of his
warehouse, his guys were way over applying it,or he was paying too much.
You know?
So we were able to dial down to that granularone line item.
But when you figure that, you know, paint in asa as a number in a business in in our business
generally around 15% of your overall revenue,you know, if you can shave 15 or 20% off of
(36:00):
that number, it's a big savings, you know, on a10, 15, $20,000,000 company.
Huge savings.
Yeah.
So that was an example where, you know, he wentback and, like, dug in and, like, realized
that, like, he wasn't getting aggressivepricing from the vendors.
Pushed back on the vendors and came back andwas like but he was still using getting pricing
from when he was a half a $1,000,000 company,and now the guy's a $12,000,000 business.
(36:23):
He should have gotten better pricing based onthe volume that he was buying, but he didn't
never really pushed.
And then when he saw all of our pricing, it waslike, oh, I can push on this.
And so, I mean, he paid for, you know, 20 yearsof peer group membership in one conversation.
Oh, it's amazing.
So that that shows you kind of the power ofbeing a peer group.
(36:43):
Right?
It's not family.
It's not friends.
It's forum.
Having having that mentality and being able toshare, because that sharing can come back
around.
Obviously, I'm gonna guess that you're innoncompetitive.
You might be in the same space, but you'renoncompetitive to each other, whether it's
geographically or otherwise.
Is that
That's correct.
Right?
I mean, we we have a similar process ofvetting, and we try to be regional and
(37:06):
noncompete.
It's gotten harder as we get bigger and biggerand bigger companies.
So we have companies that have nationalfootprints.
I think we just have to tread a little lightlyaround those.
And I think really at the end of the day, itcomes up to the group of, you know, is this
somebody that you can share with?
We do obviously keep employees of the samecompany or, you know, we have we we have peer
(37:26):
groups for, like, what key man or whatever youyou know, we call them leadership development
peer groups.
So, you know, kinda number twos where we havethose peer groups as well.
So we keep employees separated.
We try to keep them regionally diverse so that,you know, you don't have everybody from the
Pacific Northwest.
You wanna have somebody from the Southwest andthe Northwest and the East and the Central.
And so we do try to do that.
(37:48):
And, yes, we certainly do our best.
I can't say that we never compete with oneanother, but we do our best to try to mitigate
that as best
we can.
So how important you know, you talked a littlebit about I'm gonna jump a little bit.
You talked a little bit about marketing before,like conferences, you know, where you get
information from and maybe where you dobusiness.
(38:09):
How important are where you get thatinformation from to grow as a company, to grow
as leadership?
How important is that outside, we'll sayconsulting, the outside information?
And where do you where you go to get moreinformation outside of just the industry
information?
So it I mean, it's a it's a input output thing.
Right?
Like, I think that you get out what you put in.
(38:32):
Right?
So, like, if you want to, you know, if youwanna be in shape and you wanna be healthy,
then you eat the foods that you want to helpyou perform and give you the energy to do
things.
If you don't care about that stuff, you go toMcDonald's every day.
You know, and garbage in, garbage out.
So for me, I think, like, surrounding yourselfwith the peep you know, you wanna put yourself
in a room with the people you wanna be like.
(38:53):
Right?
So, like, I've been I joke around with myfriends, my personal friends, not work friends,
and say, like, I've been getting invites totables I don't belong at.
I made a career out of getting invites totables I don't belong at.
So, like, you know, I think you've you you youget in this entrepreneurial community, start
meeting people, you're making friends, andthen, you know, you sit at tables that maybe
you don't necessarily belong at today.
(39:14):
And that's the thing that I think was ahighlight in my mind is being invited to a
couple tables where I was like, dude, I'mbehind by multiple zeros here.
Like, I don't belong at this table at all.
And then the guy is going, yet.
Yet, dude, you're 28 years old.
You don't belong here.
We're all 50.
You know how far ahead you are than what wewere when we were 28?
You know?
(39:35):
And now I'm approaching 50.
And I'm thinking, yeah.
That's true.
And and now I'm the guy that people are wantingto have a podcast and have on and talk, and I'm
having these conversations and people lookingto me.
And so I think that, like, the only way you getthere is by putting yourself out there and
sitting at those tables.
And most of what I'm saying here is notoriginal thought.
This is stuff that I've combined fromexperiences of sitting at those tables over
(39:58):
dinner and hearing somebody else say it.
I'm like, big boys write big checks.
I got that.
Check.
I'm gonna remember that one.
You know?
Like, I didn't
coin that term.
Somebody said that to me, and I'm like, okay.
I'm gonna take that with me.
So, I mean, how could you this this littlepuzzle of life, the only way you could do it is
to grab little pieces along the way and hopethat you wind up with a pretty cool puzzle at
(40:18):
the end, you know, pretty cool picture at theend.
And so that's the way that I look at it, andthat's the way that I encourage our team to
look at it.
And we invest in our team to go to conferences.
We invest in our team to, you know, audiobooksand read books and podcasts.
And, obviously, with the founder involved inthis kind of world, it sets the tone for, like,
that's what it looks like.
That's what success looks like, and I wanna bepart of that.
(40:39):
So I think that it's, it's definitely somethingthat you'd never wanna miss out on.
No.
That's, I I was gonna ask about, you know,obviously, you learn and you've learned, and we
we talked about, like, how do I just get asgood as possible as fast as possible?
So passing that concepts down to the team isinstrumental.
Right?
Like, how how do they get better?
Well, they need to level up too just like youhave at going to conferences.
(41:03):
Think about the Astros.
You know, when you when you're the guy that thebuck stops with you, like, you guys are at your
organization, you know, you like, I don't whathappens when I have a problem?
Like, I don't know.
I just have to figure it out.
Like so, like, I want to have that same kind ofapproach from the people that I surround myself
with.
I don't know.
Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not you're not ababy bird.
(41:25):
I'm not feeding you.
Like, you have to just go and kind of fly onyour own.
You gotta, you know, you gotta spread yourwings and go.
So the the information's all out there.
There's nothing new under the sun.
And if you're willing to put in a little bit ofeffort and a little bit of legwork and put the
time in, you'll figure it out.
And I think that, like, start sooner thanlater, and I I got obsessed with this stuff
(41:45):
very early in my career and just read andattended anything I could get my hands on.
Like, if somebody said, hey.
There's this thing.
I think it'll be good.
You should come.
I'm like, I'm there.
And that's a lot easier to do in your twentiesthan your forties when you have 4 kids.
I mean
so
you might as well get on it early and just getto work.
Yeah.
It's a lot it's a lot less distracting when youdon't have kids to be able to focus.
(42:07):
It's a lot harder to do that.
Give up the after work barstool for after worknetworking about it.
They still have beer there.
That's right.
Two birds, one stone.
Let's talk about, technology a little bit.
What so, it's a commercial painting company.
What what are you investing in?
What does technology look like on your side?
So I think the most the coolest thing thatwe're up working on right now is our our drone
technology.
(42:28):
So we've we've we've purchased some drones, atrailer, a truck, and stuff to go along and
support our goal of being kind of acomprehensive maintenance vendor.
So these drones are actually heavy lift dronesthat allow us to power wash, paint to some
degree.
I would say that paint cleaning is really theirbread and butter.
They are able to paint.
I can you you can find use cases on ourwebsite.
(42:50):
In fact, on last Friday, we painted a churchsteeple with a drone.
We use it to wash and maintain buildings, and Ithink that it's a really neat technology that
is kind of the that will be the future of somein some circumstances.
I don't think it ever eliminates.
So it's it's not right for every use case, butit is right in a lot of use cases, and it can
(43:11):
significantly reduce costs of scaffolding.
It can significantly increase the safety of theproject so you don't have people hanging over
the side of the building to wash windows.
You can wash them with a drone and the guys onthe ground flying it.
So the worst thing that happens is the dronegets hurt rather than a person getting hurt.
So there is some safety, there's some fatiguethings, you know.
(43:32):
You don't have a guy, you know, with his arm upand down all day with a washer.
So, you know, you have some of those chronic orlong term illnesses, carpal tunnel, and things
that can be avoided.
So I think that that's something that we'rereally excited about, kinda moving the industry
forward and, looking at that that's probablythe biggest one that we have right now.
Moving the industry forward usually is not thecheapest endeavor.
(43:55):
It's, certainly and that's any industry at anypoint in time.
Construction certainly lives in that in thatrealm.
What what I guess, why make that decision?
And then what really, what is it like?
You know, Do I buy a drone?
Do I go to Target?
I buy a drone, and hopefully it works.
Like, what does that what does that really looklike?
We'll do this, and then we'll go back to Will'sopportunity cost discussion because I'm still
(44:18):
weighing the verdict is still out.
But, no.
I I think, you know, as far as there are somemanufacturers.
I mean, there's 4 or 5 manufacturers of theheavy lift drones for different reasons and
different specialties, you know, primarilyfocused around the power washing.
The particular drone we have is the only onecurrently that was equipped with the painting
setup.
I don't think it's that challenging to equipprobably other drones with the painting setup,
(44:41):
but we've found that painting with the drone isreally challenging because of the downdraft
from the blades.
So those things that carry that weight up therehave pretty substantial blades on it.
And so when wind encounters paint, what doesthe paint swirls everywhere, gets on
everything?
So there needs some challenges.
Yeah.
But as far as kind of a investment perspective,I mean, you know, we have 2 drones, a trailer
(45:05):
truck, and then the training that goes into it.
And we're probably into it for about a quarter$1,000,000.
I mean, it's an expensive endeavor, and thenthere's constant, like you know, we're learning
as we go.
So we we're doing demos, and we're testingstuff, and we're like, okay.
We'll be able to do this.
And then, like, that's not working how wethought it was gonna work.
And, like, we priced it like this.
We gotta do it for that price, and all of asudden, it's gonna take 3 x as long.
(45:27):
So I think that there's a there's a there's athere's a very kinda long I mean, we've had our
first drone arrived in February or March.
So, I mean, it's not like we just jumped onthis.
And I think we're just almost a year instarting to kinda figure it out, have the
pilots, the testing, all that stuff, and reallyhaving it dialed where, you know, we brought on
(45:47):
a full time development business developmentperson, and we're out there really trying to
get after the work.
And I think when we look at it, I look at it asjust one tool in the tool belt, but it's kind
of the new shiny tool.
So it also helps with PR.
Like, you have the new shiny tool.
You know?
So people see you, and I think when we thecompanies that we work value innovation.
(46:09):
Right?
They look at companies and they go, we wanna bewith innovative partners.
And when we do things like this, our customersbecome more loyal because they're like, this is
the type of organization we wanna be partneredwith.
And I I think that that for me has a value thatcan far exceed the cash investment in that long
term loyalty of clients.
No.
That's a good, way to put it.
(46:30):
What what else are you trying to work ontechnology wise?
Obviously, the drones is the sexiest thing.
What are the things just, you know, make surethe doughnuts keep getting made?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think we're looking at you know, one of thethings that the international flair of the
association brought to us is the Australiancompany Higgins, who I I can't say enough good
things about.
(46:50):
Jared's been a great guy to me and kindasomebody that I look up to.
He expanded a family business, and we kindahave some similar characteristics and get along
really well.
And, you know, he introduced us to this conceptthat they've been deploying in in Australia for
the last handful of years about aroundcomprehensive maintenance.
So they really look at kind of transforming thelook like when you think about your house or
(47:13):
your bedroom or your office or your warehouse,you know, it's like you you kinda think about
painting it when it needs to be paint.
Oh, it kinda starts to look like shit.
That's time to paint it.
Like, that's kind of your like, it's it's areactionary, You know?
Or, like, we rebranded, and we got it.
Now we're blue instead of red.
Let's paint our building because we're not redanymore.
You know?
That's kind of the, you know, the kind ofreactionary way that people have looked at
(47:36):
painting for a number of years.
Brought to us like a third of their revenueand, you know, I think they're a 9 figure
company.
A third of their revenue every year is done inmaintenance contracts.
So they come out and they make sure that thebuildings are protected.
They make sure that they're aestheticallypleasing and there is an e there's an ESV
component to it because they stock the paint.
(47:57):
So the paints get rather than leaving halfgallons of paint all over the country, they
keep it at a warehouse and they reuse thatpaint in the maintenance piece.
They extend the life of the paint job, reducingthe overall cost of the useless materials over
a 20 year window on the building.
So there's a lot of things there that are veryexciting, and we're working on kind of kind of
bringing that over stateside.
(48:18):
There's a lot of companies that are dabbling init, and we're hoping to kinda make that a norm
in the industry.
And then if I can keep going and combine withthat is kind of the idea of we're we've taken
the industry association and built a way tolook at the exterior facade of a building and
give it a rating.
So now we're able to quantify those savings byimproving or or or extending the degradation
(48:42):
schedule so it takes longer for these buildingsto atrophy, if you will, or to age over time
because you're staying on top of it at afraction of the price of what a repaint would
cost.
Utilizing the condition index combined with thedrones, and can then you start now the picture
is starting to become a little bit clearer toyou, hopefully, of kind of where the direction
in the future of what we're trying to bring tothe industry is.
(49:04):
No.
That's cool.
That's super forefront.
I love, obviously, we love always love the useof technology, but we love anytime that there's
innovation we see in the space.
It's just always needed and always welcome.
I would argue that there's even pricinginnovation happening and changing.
I think, I think the construction industry gotjealous about what the SaaS industry and
(49:25):
getting reoccurring revenues.
So maintenance is the way is the way to goabout doing that and still providing value,
which, coincidentally, increases EV.
It certainly can't hurt the the the valuationof the business to have recurring revenue,
let's say.
It may have some influence in driving yeah.
Because the technology industry really the SaaSindustry really got us.
(49:47):
I mean, used to be able to buy Microsoft anduse it for 10 years, and now I gotta pay for it
every month for life for life.
That's right.
That's right.
So you gotta gotta change, businesses gottachange to accommodate for that.
Death death $40 a subscriber at a time.
Yep.
That's
my 1,000 paper cuts.
Yep.
So as much as we'd love to talk for hours onend, you know, we always like to ask one last
(50:15):
question to all of our to all of our guests.
So, Aaron, if you were to go back 20 years,what advice would you give yourself?
What would you tell yourself?
You know what?
I always think about that question.
You know?
And, like, the easy answer is, like, I probablyshould have started my, retirement savings.
That's kind of an easy bullshit answer.
You know, I think that really the really whatit has to I wish that 20 years ago, you could
(50:41):
see the fruits of your labor and, like, whatyou were doing, and you'd be more encouraged to
do it.
I think, like, we're we're especially at thispoint in life, we we we very want the reward
immediately.
We know we're we're immediate gratificationculture with phones and that sort of stuff.
And I think I I kinda knew where I was going,and now, like, now that I'm really kind of
(51:02):
hitting my stride in my mid forties, but Ithink about, like, I'm 20 something years into
this journey of personal development.
Like, this wasn't, you know, you get kids thatcome in and they're like, I wanna do your job.
I'm like, well, forget about the next decade ofyour life because that's what it's gonna take
to do it.
You know, Jump on it early and do it in mytwenties, and I was persistent with it, but I
still think I could have done better.
Right?
I could have, you know, taken a couple nightsand gone to bed a little bit earlier, skipped a
(51:26):
couple parties that you went to in yourtwenties that really didn't benefit you.
But at the same time, that's part of life, andnavigating the social hierarchy is an important
piece of entrepreneurship and being being alight person and being able to have that
network of people.
So I I don't necessarily say I'd take thatback.
But I think having the if I could see what thefuture would hold and see that, like, the
(51:48):
persistence and the consistency pays off andthose times where you're kinda like,
everything's not going right and it's notpaying off.
And now it's kinda like, it's easy in hindsightto be like, oh yeah, I did all that stuff that
got me here.
But at the time you're kind of like up and downwith it.
So that's what I would say.
I appreciate the insight.
Good outlook, looking backwards.
(52:10):
So thank you for that.
Of course.
Yes.
So we will throw all, the social links and theshow notes and all that fun stuff.
But if somebody wanted to get a hold of you,what would be the best way for them to do that?
I think LinkedIn is probably the easiest way tofind me.
You know, I'm Aaron Moore, a a r o n m o o r e.
So so I'm pretty available on LinkedIn, andobviously, my email is always open,
aaron@ppdpainting.com.
(52:31):
So you can always contact me there, and I'mhappy.
I'm pretty on email a lot.
So that's an easy way to get ahold of me andhappy to help and provide any insight.
I feel like I've gotten a lot out of thisworld, so I should probably, you know, giving
it back and giving my 2¢.
I can't say that I'm always right.
That's for sure.
I I screw up more than I get right, but I'mpretty persistent.
(52:52):
So that's what I would say is just keep keepgrinding, and you get it wrong, just do it
again.
No.
For sure.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell ourlisteners before we say our goodbyes?
No.
I just really appreciate you guys having me on,and I I think this is a really cool podcast,
and I think what you guys are doing is great.
And, I like that we we didn't know each otherprior to I think one of the one of the gals in
(53:12):
my office set this up, and then we got on thephone yesterday, and it was like, oh, wait.
We know the same people.
Oh, yeah.
This entrepreneurial community is pretty small.
Yep.
We know some of the same people.
How do we not bump into each other?
Yep.
Connect the dots in about 5 minutes.
So if this is, you know, I think if you you'rea listener and you're listening to this, you
know, like, this is who I am and you hear theseconversations, it's like, just keep going for
(53:34):
it and, put yourself out there and get involvedin the communities and invest in yourself, and
then it'll all come together eventually.
Yeah.
No.
Absolutely.
Couldn't couldn't agree more.
So, thank you everybody for listening.
Meanwhile, had a blast.
It looks like Aaron had a good time sharing hisjourney with us, and, until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
(53:55):
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(54:17):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net
/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
Scale.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that for me, that entrepreneurial taxcame in the form of litigation.
Right?
That's what I would say is a expensive lessonlearned.
Have you ever wondered how architecture,engineering, and construction companies scale
their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
(00:23):
company?
Well, then you are in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forat.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
(00:47):
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
(01:11):
Just go to building scale dot net slash help.
Today's guest is Aaron Morrath, the founder andpresident of PPD painting.
A company celebrated for its excellence andrapid growth in the commercial painting
industry.
PPD has been named in the ink 5000 fastestgrowing companies list 6 times, received Inks
(01:32):
Higher Power Award, and earned 5 APC MagazineTop Job Awards showcasing a steadfast
commitment to quality and innovation.
Beyond his company, Aaron is a cofounder of theCommercial Painting Industry Association,
fostering global connections among industryleaders through events and peer groups.
He's also a frequent contributor to industrypublications, including Inc Magazine, American
(01:54):
Paint Contractor, Inpaint, Commercial PaintingMagazine, and Coatings Pro.
And additionally, Aaron is the cohost of theCommercial Painting Podcast where he shares
insights and experiences from his career.
Aaron's passion for service extends to hiscommunity.
As president of the Samuel Bell MemorialFoundation, he raises funds for underprivileged
youth and advocates for bicycle safety, amission inspired by a loss of a dear friend in
(02:19):
a cycling accent.
And with all that said, Aaron, welcome to theshow.
Full bio.
Thanks, Justin.
Glad to be here.
Don't mess around.
I when I went through all of it, I was like,wow, this is all great.
Why what am I gonna cut out of this?
This is all all good stuff.
So I said these fun things, but tell us, how doyou get in the industry?
How did this all start, this crazy idea ofentrepreneurship in, commercial painting?
(02:41):
Yeah.
For sure.
I was thinking about it a little bit last nightbefore we had the call.
And, I mean, I really think that, you know,you're kind of people like this are born this
way, right?
Like who would, you know, who would wanna takeon all that stuff?
You just have to kind of be born with that sortof compulsion to do these things.
So, you know, how it started for me, I was Iwanted to back up a little bit because I we
(03:03):
talked about it yesterday.
I went right into painting and I was thinking,you know, when I was a kid, my parents would
always say, this is our son, Aaron.
He's gonna be a politician or a preacher.
You know?
And I think like an entrepreneur is not too farfrom that.
Right?
You're always trying to influence people andmake friends and smile in, and, you know,
that's kinda how it works, shaking hands,kissing babies.
So, you know, that was kind of my that was kindof my background.
And when people would ask me what I wanna bewhen I grow up, I said a millionaire by 30.
(03:26):
You know, that was as a kid.
Because so I didn't really have a there wasn'treally a, like, an affinity for a certain I
didn't wanna be a fireman or I didn't wanna bea painter.
I just I wanted to be, I wanted to be abusinessman.
It's kind of that's where it all started, and II fell into the painting industry, after I got
out of college.
I have a degree in finance, and, buddy of minehad a painting company and said, you know, hey.
(03:48):
I'll give you half of this thing to come be mypartner, and, you know, away went the
entrepreneurial journey.
If I knew what I know now, I probably wouldhave hoped you as an electrician instead of a
painter.
I think it's more lucrative, but this is whereI wound up and so I'm making the most of it.
Well, as an entrepreneur, you can always startan electric company, just so you know.
That's yeah.
I need another business.
(04:08):
Like, I need another all of my
Yeah.
You're not doing enough based on what I said.
You need I need another business.
And it is missing one thing.
I also own a campground out in Montana that Irun too.
Well, but of course.
There's always a a side hustle, you know,that's happening that we don't necessarily talk
about.
Yeah.
So, explain this this crazy idea, theentrepreneurial way.
(04:30):
When we talked initially, you said, I'munemployable in corporate America.
You said that directly, which I love.
So what does that mean?
Like, what is what does that mean as as ourlisteners think about them being entrepreneurs,
and, like, what does that look like for you?
You know, when I think about corporate America,I think about celebrating mediocrity.
You know, that's what I would say is, like,like, if you don't make any waves, if you don't
(04:52):
cause any problems, if you just do your job, bequiet, show up on time, leave maybe a half hour
after it on time, you know, you get rewarded inthe in corporate America.
And I don't think that the entrepreneur seesthings like that.
We we we see things a little bit outside thebox and, like, how do we break all the rules,
tear this thing down, and make double when wewalk away from it in a week?
(05:13):
You know?
So that's not exactly celebrated.
And after a couple of corporate stints of notworking out, I think I realized that, like and
I was a proven performer, so I couldn't quiteunderstand, like, how could you let go the
highest performing guy on the team?
And it was like, because you make too muchnoise performing, like, and and that's just not
for me.
So that's when I kind of realized I'm probablynot the most employable guy just because I'm
(05:36):
not gonna follow the rules and I'm not gonnaI'm just gonna do what it takes to get the job
done and do it at the highest level possible.
So I look for the situations where thoserewards and when you're an entrepreneur, if you
crush it, you reap the rewards.
That's how it works.
All that noise is probably from the idea thatyou were gonna be a preacher or politician.
So they're generally you know, a lot of noisecome from them too.
(05:59):
So, you know, you must have learned something.
I mean okay.
First off, finance to something in theconstruction world, that's not always a leap
that you hear.
Right?
Talking about numbers and then paintingcompany.
So there had to be some sort of draw there.
And on top of it, not everything can be bad.
Was there anything that you drew from to helpgrow the company?
(06:23):
Yeah.
So I think one of the really things fromcorporate America and the corporate jobs that I
had that I drew was, you know, theprofessionalized training.
Right?
Like, so when you look at sales systems or,like, how to sell, they have a definitive
system of, like, here's our professional salessystem or here's our Sandler training or here's
you know, so and and I don't think that youhave to like, I don't believe that those all
(06:44):
have to be followed in a singular manner, butyou pull pieces from each of those and over
time, you develop your sales kind of swaggerand how that works.
So I would say that, like, that gave mecertainly a great foundation for, like, how am
I going to look at sales in a more analyticalmanner than just, like, I'm going out and
selling and making friends.
If you can make there's a lot of people thatare really good at making friends but really
(07:07):
bad at closing sales.
So I think that, you know, for me, it reallygave me the framework to close deals, not just
get in front of deals, but to close deals.
And so I think that that was helpful in thecorporate America side.
So how does that translate to I mean, you'vegot a team, I believe, salespeople at this
(07:27):
point.
How does that train translate then to yoursales team?
You know, what learning lessons have you kindalearned between your experience as well as
making your way?
Well, I think that that is one of the thingsthat's the biggest challenge with scale.
Right?
Is you know, and I think I I mentioned to youwhen we were doing the for prior to this that,
(07:47):
you know, we've kinda built this team ofunicorns.
We have all great people, we have greatsalespeople, but it's probably not the most
scalable model because at some point, we haveto look and break down, like, what are the
skills that make these people unicorns, andthen how do we find those people in a
repeatable manner?
And so that's kind of where we are in ourcompany today is really looking at and breaking
(08:09):
down and building out that sales playbook,which, you know, I wish I could tell you this
is the result of it.
But, you know, we're entrepreneurs, and we'removing through day as we go.
So the truth of the matter is I'm midwaythrough that process.
And so, hopefully, you have me back in a yearor 2, and I can report back good news about it.
But I think that identifying that that isprobably a blind spot in our organization over
(08:31):
time to be able to say, okay.
We're gonna address this issue if we're gonnascale this business is was probably that
foundation was laid by working for the bigcompanies that understand they have scaled
their businesses, and they do do that, and theybring everybody in.
And the 1st day, you're sitting in a salestraining.
You're not going out and selling.
It doesn't matter if you're selling, you know,web ads or if you're selling, you know, high
(08:55):
dollar ticket items.
You still have this basis that you get to thatyou start from in corporate America, and we
need to do that as an organization internallyfor PPD.
So you said, you know, that it's hard to scaleunicorns, but wouldn't unicorns be rock stars?
So aren't they able to sell a lot within anorganization?
(09:17):
So is it the is the problem that there isn'tenough unicorns out there?
Or talk a little bit more about that.
Yeah.
Well, I would say that the thing is that theunicorn isn't in this scenario or what how I'm
referring to it, they don't all have a singularskill set.
Right?
So you go, alright.
Will has this skill set that makes him kill itat sales here.
(09:40):
Justin has these awesome relationships withthis other world that makes him kill it right
here.
And that, you know, and so on and so forth.
So you don't have, like, okay.
We're all kind of have this unified USP thatwe're going out to the marketplace with, and
we're going after this set customer, this bluechip, or this, you know, ideal customer profile
(10:00):
and with a united front.
And that's what I mean by, like, the unicornsis we're kind of a little fragmented and, you
know, maybe you kill it in one area and theykill it in another area.
But are those the areas that we even wanna befocused on?
And I think we have to start there.
It's, totally to the point of just because youcan sell a thing doesn't necessarily mean
that's the thing we should be selling rightnow.
Right?
Like, hey.
(10:21):
Like, if you don't have an office in, I don'tknow, Alaska, for instance, and you say, hey.
Like, we're not gonna do Alaska deals right nowbecause, it doesn't matter that you found 1, or
maybe it does, right, depending on the size ofit and all those different things.
But as an example of, like, there are thingsjust because you can sell an idea to somebody
that's willing to give you money doesn't alwaysmean that you should do it right now if there's
(10:42):
no other processes in place or, like,delivering the outcome that, you know, there's
a certain quality that you're trying todeliver.
And if it's, like, in a remote area that you'relike, I don't know.
I have no idea how the hell we're gonna dothis.
It becomes like, well, that wasn't the bestdeal to sell.
But, Justin, I like selling ice to Eskimos.
Yeah.
Seriously.
So, Aaron, so these different skill sets,you're kind of putting this process together.
(11:06):
Outside of identifying unicorns, what have beensort of the major points or to get to the point
of this is now scalable?
What what do you what would you describe then Iam now able to scale?
And it's okay that you're in the process.
I think you've probably you've been around theblock.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I have a pretty straightforward answerfor that.
I mean, you know, it it was kind of anaccidental thing.
(11:28):
As with most things, it's like trial and error.
So we got a customer of ours went toCincinnati.
We were a Chicago based company.
They went to Cincinnati and said, hey.
We're buying a portfolio of buildings.
Are you interested in looking at it?
So I went down.
I looked at it.
It was a good job.
And I and he said, okay.
Well, this was at fall at the time.
And he said, well, it doesn't it's not gonnahappen till spring.
(11:49):
It was an exterior paint job, so we couldn't doit in the winter.
And he's like, so if you want it, it's yours.
We have the price.
It's approved.
We can use a local contractor down there, butwe really, like, trust you.
So we like the work that you do.
So what we did is I turned on my marketingmachine starting in, like, October that year
and said, if we can drum up leads and I wentback and forth every other week myself just
(12:13):
trying to sell work or send an estimator downand just try to kinda feel out the market.
And we found that, hey.
We have something here.
We we were able to walk into that market with 3quarters of $1,000,000 in work backlog start
for the summer, and then we just went for it.
And I think that we definitely had some hiccupsalong the way and staffing challenges and who
(12:33):
do we put there, and, you know, we had someturnover, and there there was some challenges
to it.
And then all of a sudden, it, like, clicked.
We got the right person.
We got the right stuff.
We got the right staff in place, and it was,like, 2 years in, and all of a sudden, it was
like, boom.
That worked.
And we're like, okay.
Now we can replicate.
I think we could do that again.
You know?
Like, once it you forget we have very shortmemories.
Right?
(12:53):
So you forget about, like, the 2 years of pain.
When you get that one day that it all worksright, it's kinda like golf.
You know, you pretty much suck, but you makethat one good shot and you're like, I like
golf.
But then you hack the next 3 into the woods,and then you then it lets you have one good
shot into the green, and you're like, I'mpretty good at this game.
I could be good at this.
You know?
So we forget about that stuff.
And I think that that's kind of how that piecewent.
(13:16):
And so we try to put some parameters around it,and we've opened a couple offices since, and
we've learned some stuff there.
And when those go right, it'll probably be thesame memory curve.
It'll be like, oh, that was easy, and youforget about the 2 years of shit you went
through.
What was the strategy to open the otheroffices?
Obviously, Cincinnati won.
You had a client that said, hey.
I gotta put out a bunch of work for you to do.
(13:37):
That seems like the best, you know, scenario.
But what about some of the other offices?
Yeah.
So, really, I think Montana was because I movedout here.
Right?
So I live in Montana full time.
I travel back and forth to Chicago and Cincyfor work.
And so after 6 years of being here and meetingthe people and not doing any business and
people knowing who I was, it was kinda like,well, I have this network here.
(13:59):
Why would I not utilize it?
Now I would say that I broke kind of a cardinalrule.
Right?
It doesn't fit our market.
It doesn't fit who we are.
It's not really the market that we are used toserving.
So it's been it's been a challenge.
Right?
Because I think, like, when we now we'relooking at it as, okay.
We want a market that's no more than 2 hoursfrom our furthest office.
(14:22):
Right?
So, you know, when when Indy, Columbus, thosefit in that parameter.
Right?
They're close to Chicago.
They're close to Cincinnati.
They have representative populations similar toCincinnati where we had success, where we moved
out here, and there's a population of a 100000total people.
Like, we have tourism, but it's a totallydifferent market.
So I think one of the things lessons learnedthere now while we're not abandoning Montana
(14:45):
and we're having a lot of success here, but Ithink a part of that is that I actually live
here, and I'm kind of the driving force behindit.
And but looking at okay.
What are the things that made it successful?
I think that those tier 2 markets, I think we'dstruggle in one of the tier one.
Like, Chicago is a very difficult market ifyou're not from there.
You don't see a lot of out of state paintingcompanies opening in Chicago.
(15:07):
You see a ton of out of state paintingcompanies opening in Nashville.
Right?
So, like, a tier 2 market with a little lesssaturation and a little less competition can
really make a big difference when you come inwith the backbone of a larger company.
So I think mapping that out and looking at whatis our actual target, Do those clients exist
(15:27):
there?
How many square foot of industrial real estateis there in that city?
Does it make so how many what's the hotpopulation?
And we can look at the market and say thismakes sense.
And then is it accessible from one of our otheroffices?
So if something goes wrong, we can bail it outquickly.
So those are some of the things that we'relooking at in this kind of scale and expansion.
Quick.
You've mentioned tier 1, tier 2 market.
(15:48):
How do you define that?
And is there a tier 3?
There are certainly all t there there's manytiers.
Right?
I mean, I just look at tier 1, I think, is, youknow, cities over a few 1000000 people.
Right?
So, you know, your New York, your Dallas, yourAtlanta, your Chicago, your LA, your Seattle,
those are kind of what I would consider tier 1.
(16:10):
I also think that many of the tier 1 citieshave a strong union component, in the trades.
That makes a difference for scale and makes adifference for market entering a market.
Our tier 2 markets are gonna be metros in themillion ish range.
Right?
So for us.
Now I'm not saying that this isn't like, youcan't Google that and find.
(16:31):
That's just what I'm referring to when I referto them.
Makes sense.
You also mentioned a a marketing machine.
When since I mean, you're popping up inCincinnati.
What does that mean?
What does I mean, I everybody wants a marketingmachine.
And if you can just call on it whenever youneed it, that that sounds very, very scalable.
Easier said than done.
But Of course.
(16:51):
It's not a magic machine.
But, I mean, you know, it's sourcing andutilizing email marketing to get to our target
clients.
So looking at who's our you know, we're arepaying contractor primarily.
So we we look for opportunities in repaying andmaintenance.
So who are our clients?
Our clients are, you know, owners of realestate portfolios, multifamily property
(17:12):
managers, facility managers.
Those are kind of like the titles that we'relooking for.
So we start to go through, like, a platformlike ZoomInfo, extract data, start emailing.
So those emailing sequences are prettysuccessful for us, and so that's one of the
things that we turn on early.
And then getting a small physical locationwhere we have an address, and we could put
(17:33):
together a Google map pack and doing thosethings to give us a local presence and then
building a landing page onto our site to saywe're we're working here now, doing an
announcement to our client base via our emailnewsletter.
So it's kind of a multifaceted approach to,like, letting people know.
And then, you know, even though the client maybe Chicago client that gets, hey, we opened an
(17:54):
indie, many of those clients, you know what Imean?
Prologis has buildings all over the world.
Now you're doing indie.
Let me introduce you to somebody.
You know, with with our bank accounts, 5th 3rdor some of those types of accounts where you
would have Bank of America, you know, they havelocate dispersed footprints, so now you can
pick up another region.
So those are kind of the things that I meanwith our marketing.
I would call it a machine, but I wouldn't saythat it's like, it's a it's just an automated
(18:16):
approach.
It's kind of a multifaceted in differentdivisions.
No.
That makes sense.
And what do you have a process like, hey.
In the 1st 90 days, 100 days of opening anoffice that you have a like, a game plan now
that you've done it a couple times?
Yeah.
So that's a good question because we actuallyjust I just finished it.
(18:38):
You know, you guys are on the podcast, but thisis what I'm working on.
So it's on my desk right here.
So we did put together, like, a 90 day playbookwhere we outlined, you know, here's what we
want our the first hire in that market to do tobe successful.
And it comes along with some KPIs, someindicators for us to see, like, okay.
Are you making the calls?
(18:59):
Are you doing the messaging?
Are you having the touches?
Are you reaching out to new clients?
And then it also shows, like, what are thegoals of that?
So is it to get 10 estimates this week?
Is it to get 2 estimates this week?
Is it to close one deal?
So, you know, an example on that, you know, Ican because I have it right here.
I can tell you, you know, it's about listbuilding, but, you know, we have it week by
(19:19):
week.
So here's week 4.
Keep making 20 qualified calls per day,continue handwritten notes, follow-up with
potential customers from week 3, focus onclosing deals, aiming to reach a total of 5 by
the end of the month, review your progress, andidentify areas for improvement.
So, like, that would be his week 4 or her week4.
So, like, building that out, and then it's verydefined.
So they can just check kind of, okay.
(19:40):
I've done this this week.
And then when we have feedback calls, you know,a, take some of the own stuff of me or a
trainer because I'm only so one person with alimited amount of time.
So I can't be if you wanna have 3 people goingthrough this process, I don't have the time to
hold their hand every single day.
So this allows them to work autonomously.
(20:01):
Like, I think one of the guys I don't know.
You guys might know Nick from Mick's Pizza, buthe kinda coined the term he coined the term
what did he say?
Trust and track versus command and control.
Right?
So, like, if we can give them the program andtrust them to follow it and then just track,
are they doing the things that are listed inthe program, then there's really no it takes
the emotion out of it.
(20:22):
It takes all of it.
It just makes life easy.
So that's really our goal.
I love how you talked.
So trust and track versus command and control.
Part of really what's being talked about thereis accountability, holding someone accountable,
which is arguably one of the hardest things todo with people in a business is to understand
(20:44):
that aspect.
Right?
The employee is going, okay, what do I need todo?
And if there's a misalignment in expectationsor if there's a misalignment between what the
company is and what the employee thinks, thenusually there's a failure somewhere.
Right?
So and you're just one person.
So how do you make sure what what has been, youknow, tried, proven way around holding someone
(21:11):
accountable versus where you had to learn fromthose mistakes?
The answer to that is actually very simple.
It's really about the set expectations.
Right?
So, like, if you don't define the expectationsand you don't have the things that are clear to
track, then it makes that you could trust them,but if they don't know what they're supposed to
be doing, like you said, well, what am Isupposed to do?
Well, if you lay it out so that a child couldunderstand it, then there's really no it's not
(21:36):
hard to track.
And if you can put a KPI around it, like make20 calls a day, I can say, Justin, how many
calls did you make today?
And they're like, I'm not sure.
Okay.
Well, that isn't the answer that we're lookingat.
That's not 20.
So tomorrow, you're going to write down andyou're going to report back to me who you
called.
Like, I trusted you to make the calls.
I asked you to make the calls.
(21:57):
You didn't have the answer.
Now you're gonna have to we're gonna addanother layer.
You're gonna build a spreadsheet, and everytime you make a call, you're gonna put it in
there, and I'm gonna check it.
Because I trusted you at first, and now youdidn't do the work.
So now we have to put in another layer.
And so I think that that's a easy way to keepit from falling off.
And, like, now Justin shouldn't be mad at me.
I'm not we had an agreement.
You were gonna make 20 calls.
(22:18):
Did you or didn't?
I don't think there's any reason.
Like, there's not it's not a personal attack.
I could still like you, Justin.
I'm just upset because you're not following theprotocol and you're not having success.
And the other side of that coin is if I callJustin and I say, did you make 20 calls?
And he goes, no, but I closed a $2,000,000deal.
I don't care how many calls Justin made.
That's right.
Sales cures all
Results results talks.
(22:40):
Sales cures all ales.
Okay.
So I like to use the term entrepreneurial tax,and you kinda talked about it earlier.
But I want you know, what other places whentalking about the entrepreneurial tax, do you
have to learn from a scaling perspective?
And if you remember from our conversationbefore, there was one topic I wanna go over.
(23:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that for me, that entrepreneurial taxcame in the form of litigation.
Right?
That's what I would say is a expensive lessonlearned.
You know, you can be right and still lose, Ithink is one of the things, and that that
that's one of the things that I learned thehard way is that, like, no one cares if you're
right.
You know, there's either some deals some fightsyou can win, some fights you can't, and I
(23:26):
learned that even with clients.
You know?
And I try to tell my guys, you know, you'll getguys that are like you know, the clients may be
in the wrong, but you can prove that you'reright, but then they can never give you
business again.
So I did you win?
I don't know if you actually won.
And the same thing goes for litigation andattorneys and those sort of things is, you
know, I had a situation where, you know, wedon't feel that we were right.
(23:50):
We were set up on a job where they had nointention to pay, and it was a lot of money.
And, you know, when it came time to pay, we hadhad a conversation during the job where I was
suspicious of this individual.
They seemed to be acting in a very suspiciousmanner.
I had a gut feeling about it, and I had aconversation looking them in the eye saying,
like, are you going to pay me for this work, oris this a setup?
(24:11):
And they looked me in the eye and said, I'mnot.
So it was a personal vendetta almost at thatpoint, and I still ended up writing the check.
Like, I paid the attorneys.
I had to pay them off, and it wasn't because weweren't right.
It was just because it didn't matter.
It was big bad corporation against little momand pop, poor as me, and it wasn't that wasn't
the case, but that's how it was portrayed in acourt that was very not friendly to business.
(24:36):
So and an and a judge that was unprepared.
So it cost a lot of money.
It cost a lot of time, and I still wrote thecheck.
And I look back on that and think, you know,one of the one of my mentors said to me, big
boys write big checks sometimes, Aaron.
And that, you know, always resonated to me tothink, like, you know, sometimes even though
you're right, the opportunity cost of youremotional and just like, a that type of stuff
(25:02):
can just suck the life out of you.
And if you put that much energy into somethingproductive, right, I would have made 10 x the
money I needed to write that check if I neverput my energy into that and put it into
something that could have gone to making moremoney.
So I'd say, like, when we talk aboutentrepreneurial tax, that's what comes to mind
with me is those sorts of decisions that youjust have to learn over time and remove emotion
(25:23):
sometimes from some of these decisions.
Very much a ego, component there.
Right?
Like, I'm right in the prince the principle ofthe matter, and that's gonna then cost me more
than I would like in the long run.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So how
does someone decide where to draw the linebetween right and we'll call it the,
(25:47):
entrepreneurial tax of and just letting it go.
Because there's an emotional component, andyou're saying try not to be emotional.
I get it.
Well, I think you
have to look further
down the road.
To me, look further down the road.
Like, what is this how does this decisiondecision affect me down the road?
Right?
So, like, you cannot not pay us and not getsued.
(26:08):
We will sue you even though it doesn't makesense sometimes because we can't set a
precedent so you don't have to pay us.
So, like, when I look at that, I go, alright.
Yeah.
It doesn't make sense in this particular casethat for $10,000, we're gonna spend $5,000
suing this person.
That doesn't make sense.
But when I look at the what would happen if Ihad a reputation of you don't have to pay him,
(26:30):
That would probably hurt my business all theway down the road.
So that's a scenario where you look at it andyou go, okay.
Maybe that does make sense because we can'tallow this to be who we're gonna be for the
future.
So I think sometimes those decisions can bemade.
If there's a one off cut your losses, move on,it's not gonna affect your business moving
forward, then it probably isn't worth it.
(26:50):
But if it's gonna be something that like, adecision today is gonna affect you for the next
20, well, then you have to think about, is itreally about this decision, or is it about the
bigger picture?
And when you look at something like, you know,paying your bills, accounts receivable, that's
something about the whole picture, not justabout this one isolated incident.
Can you talk about because you said youmentioned something, opportunity costs.
(27:14):
Right?
So what are those opportunity costs?
Right?
And and going through the process for someonethat's never gone through the process or maybe
debating going through this process, they thinkthat they've thought it through.
What are the some of the opportunity costs thatare not necessarily written down?
Well, I mean, the in general, obviously, Ithink you understand opportunity costs.
Like, what I'm what I'm doing right now versuswhat I could be potentially doing.
(27:37):
Right?
So, you know, those opportunity costs, itdepends on sometimes it can be time.
I find that the one that is biggest for me isjust mental capacity.
Right?
Like, how much you know, we have a certainnumber of thoughts per day, whatever.
10,000 thoughts can go through your so how muchof my if we say, I don't know the exact number,
Tom Walter could tell you.
(27:57):
But if you you'd have a certain number ofthoughts that go through your head every single
day.
You have so if you're going to just take, say,the number's 10,000, and 35100 of these
thoughts are gonna be consumed by this negativething, The opportunity cost is, like, you could
be putting those 35100 you know, 30% of yourthoughts could be going to, how do I make more
(28:18):
money?
How do I make this business better?
How do I do better?
How do I spend better time with my wife andkids?
And, like, all the positive things that you canhave in life.
Or you can waste a third of those thoughts ondown this rabbit hole.
And what would be the outcome if I focus thosethoughts on these more positive things?
That's where I think it really changes thegame, and that's what you have to contemplate
(28:40):
when you're going.
Alright.
Am I gonna go down this, or am I not gonna godown this?
Because if it takes away from those things, youcan't get those thoughts back.
You can't get that time back.
You've lost that time and those thoughts, andthat's where why I refer to it as kind of an
opportunity cost.
Putting it.
It's not just it's not just time.
It's the energies.
The decision fatigue is what I like to call it.
For sure.
(29:00):
Too many too many things, too many paths.
That actually brings up how do you obviously,tons of decisions happen in a business every
day, when you think strategically, over time.
How do you identify the most important things?
Like, where what's the process of saying, like,I can only do so much stuff.
I need to do this over this.
That's a hard question to answer because a lotof times I find myself doing stuff I probably
(29:23):
should have done something else.
Right?
So, like, we try to I mean, I try to look atthe things that I have on my to do list and
take the crappiest one and do it first.
Alright.
And, like,
if I can get that out of the way, the hardestthing I have to do all day, if I can do that at
8:30 in the morning, then I feel like my daygets easier from there.
So if I have a hard phone call to make or Ihave something that I really am not looking
forward to doing, I just try to do that.
(29:45):
And I think that's one of the things where Idon't know if you guys have gotten into, like,
the cold plunge stuff, but that's one of thethings, like, you know, I go to the gym, I go
home, I sauna, I cold plunge, and then I go tothe office.
So, like, I do not like the cold plunge.
I do not wanna do it.
Like, I I look at that thing, and I thinkabout, like, Goggins talking to his running
shoes.
Like, I don't wanna do it.
(30:05):
But I'm like, I have to just do this becausethis is how I'm gonna get my brain.
And I don't know the I don't know about theinflammation and losing weight.
It hasn't really worked for me.
But I could tell you the brain piece of, like,doing the thing that you really despise doing
leaves me in a good mental place to head to theoffice.
So that's one thing I would say, and then justtrying to prioritize your tasks.
(30:25):
You know, I use a may I type calendar that setsup to due dates, and I prioritize high, medium,
low, and then it puts the stuff in front of methat I've marked as high in slots that I have
time to do it in.
And I try to organize myself that way.
I sometimes I get it done good and sometimesnot so good.
No.
But you're at least thinking about the conceptof the well, medium, you know, high, medium,
(30:46):
low.
Like, there are certain things that are morevaluable to do.
Obviously, getting out the thing that you hateto do or the biggest pain in the ass in the
morning has advantages throughout the rest ofthe day, so makes sense.
You know, something that we talked aboutbefore, I think this is a good way a place to
talk about it, is all these learning lessonsthat you've had.
You've been an EO, and you've also looked atother organizations, Fistage, YPO, etcetera.
(31:09):
So you decided to go your own path and createyour own association.
Why did you go down that path?
And, you know, what's the difference incomparison to things like EO Entrepreneurs
Organization?
Yeah.
Thanks, Will.
Thanks for that question because I I like toshare this what I'm up to with the association.
So we started the commercial painting industryassociation just to kind of bridge the gap.
(31:32):
So in our industry, we had a couple tradeassociations, and I was I was heavily involved
with because I was I came up as kind of a, youknow, pot and brush, you know, owner operator
painting company.
That's how I built this.
I mean, I started it with a paintbrush and abuddy.
So, you know, we and it was very instrumentalin my development, and I got to a certain point
where, like, we I ran out.
Like, I felt like I was just giving, and Ithere was no one there for me to get from.
(31:56):
And then, you know, we looked at there'sanother association in our industry that caters
to industrial contractors that paint likebridges, water towers, tanks.
And, you know, we saw this hole in the middleof resources for commercial painting
contractors.
And when I talk about commercial paintingcontractors, I talk about, you know,
architectural applications.
So you're thinking like wall paint, ceilingpaint, trim paint, interior, exterior, not like
(32:18):
industrial applications to non single familyresidents.
So that could be offices, churches, retailcenters, whatever.
That's that's my definition of commercialpainting just so so that we're on the same
page.
And I had utilized my experience with EO andthe and the forum experience, and I've been in
some other masterminds or peer groups.
(32:38):
You know, they have a lot of terms that theyuse for it.
But I had been in some of those, and I thought,you know, while EO is amazing and it gives you
access to, like, tons of blind spot coverageand feedback because you have all these
entrepreneurs, you have to be a founder to bepart of it.
So everyone has kind of the same, at somepoint, had that same seizure.
Like, I'm gonna go do this by myself.
And you have this conversation, but, you know,I might have a guy that's selling a a tech
(33:04):
platform.
I'm a painting contractor.
I've got a I got a tech guy.
I've got an IT guy.
I've got a marketing guy, and I got a guy thatsells wrenches, you know, or, you know, a
manufacturing guy.
And so there is I think all business kind oftopics do boil down to they they crossover.
They're very they very crossover betweenindustry.
(33:26):
But utilizing that same model in a industryspecific has its advantages too because we can
compare things like financials.
Right?
Like, where are your where is your gross profitas a percentage of your revenue?
Right?
So we can look at that, and we should be we'rein the same industry.
We should all be kind of close there.
So we can find and so there's some stuff thatwe can uncover.
(33:47):
So that was kind of the model behind it, andwe're up to 10 peer groups.
We have members from Australia, Germany, UK,US, Canada.
So, you know, it's really been a fun thing, andwe've we we have live events twice a year, and
we've done some off specialty events.
We toured the biggest painting company inAustralia.
We toured the biggest company in Germany for acouple weeks over the course of a couple years.
(34:10):
So it's been quite the ride, and I'm reallyenjoying it.
I get it.
Selfishly, I get a ton from it because I'm in apeer group, and I get to, you know, glean the
advice from people that are much wiser than Iam.
So can you talk a little bit about specificsaround value?
You gave me a story yesterday on what happened,and I thought it was super interesting.
(34:30):
Like, what's the difference between because ifyou really boil it down, if you take away the
product or the service, then all businessproblems are about the same.
Do you agree?
Yeah.
So then the industry specific stuff, which Ifound kind of fascinating, you gave kind of top
level, but I think you helped someone.
Talk to us a little bit about give a veryspecific version of that.
(34:50):
Yeah.
I mean, it kinda came back to like, I was Ibriefly talked about comparing financials.
Right?
So, you know, in one of our early meetings, wewere just talking about in roundabout ways, we
were comparing.
We we were still kinda getting to know eachother, so we were comparing financials on a
percentage basis.
So not numbers.
Like, I do this many millions, and this manymillions goes to this and whatever.
(35:12):
It was more about on a percentage basis, let'sjust pull our percent and say, this is our
overhead.
This is our, you know, our labor, ourmaterials, our subcontract, our marketing.
This is what we're spending on those things.
And and and one of the individuals in our groupwas about 15 points higher on material spend
than everybody else, and it was like, thatsounds strange.
(35:35):
And so we kinda came up with either someone wasstealing the pain out of the back of his
warehouse, his guys were way over applying it,or he was paying too much.
You know?
So we were able to dial down to that granularone line item.
But when you figure that, you know, paint in asa as a number in a business in in our business
generally around 15% of your overall revenue,you know, if you can shave 15 or 20% off of
(36:00):
that number, it's a big savings, you know, on a10, 15, $20,000,000 company.
Huge savings.
Yeah.
So that was an example where, you know, he wentback and, like, dug in and, like, realized
that, like, he wasn't getting aggressivepricing from the vendors.
Pushed back on the vendors and came back andwas like but he was still using getting pricing
from when he was a half a $1,000,000 company,and now the guy's a $12,000,000 business.
(36:23):
He should have gotten better pricing based onthe volume that he was buying, but he didn't
never really pushed.
And then when he saw all of our pricing, it waslike, oh, I can push on this.
And so, I mean, he paid for, you know, 20 yearsof peer group membership in one conversation.
Oh, it's amazing.
So that that shows you kind of the power ofbeing a peer group.
(36:43):
Right?
It's not family.
It's not friends.
It's forum.
Having having that mentality and being able toshare, because that sharing can come back
around.
Obviously, I'm gonna guess that you're innoncompetitive.
You might be in the same space, but you'renoncompetitive to each other, whether it's
geographically or otherwise.
Is that
That's correct.
Right?
I mean, we we have a similar process ofvetting, and we try to be regional and
(37:06):
noncompete.
It's gotten harder as we get bigger and biggerand bigger companies.
So we have companies that have nationalfootprints.
I think we just have to tread a little lightlyaround those.
And I think really at the end of the day, itcomes up to the group of, you know, is this
somebody that you can share with?
We do obviously keep employees of the samecompany or, you know, we have we we have peer
(37:26):
groups for, like, what key man or whatever youyou know, we call them leadership development
peer groups.
So, you know, kinda number twos where we havethose peer groups as well.
So we keep employees separated.
We try to keep them regionally diverse so that,you know, you don't have everybody from the
Pacific Northwest.
You wanna have somebody from the Southwest andthe Northwest and the East and the Central.
And so we do try to do that.
(37:48):
And, yes, we certainly do our best.
I can't say that we never compete with oneanother, but we do our best to try to mitigate
that as best
we can.
So how important you know, you talked a littlebit about I'm gonna jump a little bit.
You talked a little bit about marketing before,like conferences, you know, where you get
information from and maybe where you dobusiness.
(38:09):
How important are where you get thatinformation from to grow as a company, to grow
as leadership?
How important is that outside, we'll sayconsulting, the outside information?
And where do you where you go to get moreinformation outside of just the industry
information?
So it I mean, it's a it's a input output thing.
Right?
Like, I think that you get out what you put in.
(38:32):
Right?
So, like, if you want to, you know, if youwanna be in shape and you wanna be healthy,
then you eat the foods that you want to helpyou perform and give you the energy to do
things.
If you don't care about that stuff, you go toMcDonald's every day.
You know, and garbage in, garbage out.
So for me, I think, like, surrounding yourselfwith the peep you know, you wanna put yourself
in a room with the people you wanna be like.
(38:53):
Right?
So, like, I've been I joke around with myfriends, my personal friends, not work friends,
and say, like, I've been getting invites totables I don't belong at.
I made a career out of getting invites totables I don't belong at.
So, like, you know, I think you've you you youget in this entrepreneurial community, start
meeting people, you're making friends, andthen, you know, you sit at tables that maybe
you don't necessarily belong at today.
(39:14):
And that's the thing that I think was ahighlight in my mind is being invited to a
couple tables where I was like, dude, I'mbehind by multiple zeros here.
Like, I don't belong at this table at all.
And then the guy is going, yet.
Yet, dude, you're 28 years old.
You don't belong here.
We're all 50.
You know how far ahead you are than what wewere when we were 28?
You know?
(39:35):
And now I'm approaching 50.
And I'm thinking, yeah.
That's true.
And and now I'm the guy that people are wantingto have a podcast and have on and talk, and I'm
having these conversations and people lookingto me.
And so I think that, like, the only way you getthere is by putting yourself out there and
sitting at those tables.
And most of what I'm saying here is notoriginal thought.
This is stuff that I've combined fromexperiences of sitting at those tables over
(39:58):
dinner and hearing somebody else say it.
I'm like, big boys write big checks.
I got that.
Check.
I'm gonna remember that one.
You know?
Like, I didn't
coin that term.
Somebody said that to me, and I'm like, okay.
I'm gonna take that with me.
So, I mean, how could you this this littlepuzzle of life, the only way you could do it is
to grab little pieces along the way and hopethat you wind up with a pretty cool puzzle at
(40:18):
the end, you know, pretty cool picture at theend.
And so that's the way that I look at it, andthat's the way that I encourage our team to
look at it.
And we invest in our team to go to conferences.
We invest in our team to, you know, audiobooksand read books and podcasts.
And, obviously, with the founder involved inthis kind of world, it sets the tone for, like,
that's what it looks like.
That's what success looks like, and I wanna bepart of that.
(40:39):
So I think that it's, it's definitely somethingthat you'd never wanna miss out on.
No.
That's, I I was gonna ask about, you know,obviously, you learn and you've learned, and we
we talked about, like, how do I just get asgood as possible as fast as possible?
So passing that concepts down to the team isinstrumental.
Right?
Like, how how do they get better?
Well, they need to level up too just like youhave at going to conferences.
(41:03):
Think about the Astros.
You know, when you when you're the guy that thebuck stops with you, like, you guys are at your
organization, you know, you like, I don't whathappens when I have a problem?
Like, I don't know.
I just have to figure it out.
Like so, like, I want to have that same kind ofapproach from the people that I surround myself
with.
I don't know.
Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not you're not ababy bird.
(41:25):
I'm not feeding you.
Like, you have to just go and kind of fly onyour own.
You gotta, you know, you gotta spread yourwings and go.
So the the information's all out there.
There's nothing new under the sun.
And if you're willing to put in a little bit ofeffort and a little bit of legwork and put the
time in, you'll figure it out.
And I think that, like, start sooner thanlater, and I I got obsessed with this stuff
(41:45):
very early in my career and just read andattended anything I could get my hands on.
Like, if somebody said, hey.
There's this thing.
I think it'll be good.
You should come.
I'm like, I'm there.
And that's a lot easier to do in your twentiesthan your forties when you have 4 kids.
I mean
so
you might as well get on it early and just getto work.
Yeah.
It's a lot it's a lot less distracting when youdon't have kids to be able to focus.
(42:07):
It's a lot harder to do that.
Give up the after work barstool for after worknetworking about it.
They still have beer there.
That's right.
Two birds, one stone.
Let's talk about, technology a little bit.
What so, it's a commercial painting company.
What what are you investing in?
What does technology look like on your side?
So I think the most the coolest thing thatwe're up working on right now is our our drone
technology.
(42:28):
So we've we've we've purchased some drones, atrailer, a truck, and stuff to go along and
support our goal of being kind of acomprehensive maintenance vendor.
So these drones are actually heavy lift dronesthat allow us to power wash, paint to some
degree.
I would say that paint cleaning is really theirbread and butter.
They are able to paint.
I can you you can find use cases on ourwebsite.
(42:50):
In fact, on last Friday, we painted a churchsteeple with a drone.
We use it to wash and maintain buildings, and Ithink that it's a really neat technology that
is kind of the that will be the future of somein some circumstances.
I don't think it ever eliminates.
So it's it's not right for every use case, butit is right in a lot of use cases, and it can
(43:11):
significantly reduce costs of scaffolding.
It can significantly increase the safety of theproject so you don't have people hanging over
the side of the building to wash windows.
You can wash them with a drone and the guys onthe ground flying it.
So the worst thing that happens is the dronegets hurt rather than a person getting hurt.
So there is some safety, there's some fatiguethings, you know.
(43:32):
You don't have a guy, you know, with his arm upand down all day with a washer.
So, you know, you have some of those chronic orlong term illnesses, carpal tunnel, and things
that can be avoided.
So I think that that's something that we'rereally excited about, kinda moving the industry
forward and, looking at that that's probablythe biggest one that we have right now.
Moving the industry forward usually is not thecheapest endeavor.
(43:55):
It's, certainly and that's any industry at anypoint in time.
Construction certainly lives in that in thatrealm.
What what I guess, why make that decision?
And then what really, what is it like?
You know, Do I buy a drone?
Do I go to Target?
I buy a drone, and hopefully it works.
Like, what does that what does that really looklike?
We'll do this, and then we'll go back to Will'sopportunity cost discussion because I'm still
(44:18):
weighing the verdict is still out.
But, no.
I I think, you know, as far as there are somemanufacturers.
I mean, there's 4 or 5 manufacturers of theheavy lift drones for different reasons and
different specialties, you know, primarilyfocused around the power washing.
The particular drone we have is the only onecurrently that was equipped with the painting
setup.
I don't think it's that challenging to equipprobably other drones with the painting setup,
(44:41):
but we've found that painting with the drone isreally challenging because of the downdraft
from the blades.
So those things that carry that weight up therehave pretty substantial blades on it.
And so when wind encounters paint, what doesthe paint swirls everywhere, gets on
everything?
So there needs some challenges.
Yeah.
But as far as kind of a investment perspective,I mean, you know, we have 2 drones, a trailer
(45:05):
truck, and then the training that goes into it.
And we're probably into it for about a quarter$1,000,000.
I mean, it's an expensive endeavor, and thenthere's constant, like you know, we're learning
as we go.
So we we're doing demos, and we're testingstuff, and we're like, okay.
We'll be able to do this.
And then, like, that's not working how wethought it was gonna work.
And, like, we priced it like this.
We gotta do it for that price, and all of asudden, it's gonna take 3 x as long.
(45:27):
So I think that there's a there's a there's athere's a very kinda long I mean, we've had our
first drone arrived in February or March.
So, I mean, it's not like we just jumped onthis.
And I think we're just almost a year instarting to kinda figure it out, have the
pilots, the testing, all that stuff, and reallyhaving it dialed where, you know, we brought on
(45:47):
a full time development business developmentperson, and we're out there really trying to
get after the work.
And I think when we look at it, I look at it asjust one tool in the tool belt, but it's kind
of the new shiny tool.
So it also helps with PR.
Like, you have the new shiny tool.
You know?
So people see you, and I think when we thecompanies that we work value innovation.
(46:09):
Right?
They look at companies and they go, we wanna bewith innovative partners.
And when we do things like this, our customersbecome more loyal because they're like, this is
the type of organization we wanna be partneredwith.
And I I think that that for me has a value thatcan far exceed the cash investment in that long
term loyalty of clients.
No.
That's a good, way to put it.
(46:30):
What what else are you trying to work ontechnology wise?
Obviously, the drones is the sexiest thing.
What are the things just, you know, make surethe doughnuts keep getting made?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think we're looking at you know, one of thethings that the international flair of the
association brought to us is the Australiancompany Higgins, who I I can't say enough good
things about.
(46:50):
Jared's been a great guy to me and kindasomebody that I look up to.
He expanded a family business, and we kindahave some similar characteristics and get along
really well.
And, you know, he introduced us to this conceptthat they've been deploying in in Australia for
the last handful of years about aroundcomprehensive maintenance.
So they really look at kind of transforming thelook like when you think about your house or
(47:13):
your bedroom or your office or your warehouse,you know, it's like you you kinda think about
painting it when it needs to be paint.
Oh, it kinda starts to look like shit.
That's time to paint it.
Like, that's kind of your like, it's it's areactionary, You know?
Or, like, we rebranded, and we got it.
Now we're blue instead of red.
Let's paint our building because we're not redanymore.
You know?
That's kind of the, you know, the kind ofreactionary way that people have looked at
(47:36):
painting for a number of years.
Brought to us like a third of their revenueand, you know, I think they're a 9 figure
company.
A third of their revenue every year is done inmaintenance contracts.
So they come out and they make sure that thebuildings are protected.
They make sure that they're aestheticallypleasing and there is an e there's an ESV
component to it because they stock the paint.
(47:57):
So the paints get rather than leaving halfgallons of paint all over the country, they
keep it at a warehouse and they reuse thatpaint in the maintenance piece.
They extend the life of the paint job, reducingthe overall cost of the useless materials over
a 20 year window on the building.
So there's a lot of things there that are veryexciting, and we're working on kind of kind of
bringing that over stateside.
(48:18):
There's a lot of companies that are dabbling init, and we're hoping to kinda make that a norm
in the industry.
And then if I can keep going and combine withthat is kind of the idea of we're we've taken
the industry association and built a way tolook at the exterior facade of a building and
give it a rating.
So now we're able to quantify those savings byimproving or or or extending the degradation
(48:42):
schedule so it takes longer for these buildingsto atrophy, if you will, or to age over time
because you're staying on top of it at afraction of the price of what a repaint would
cost.
Utilizing the condition index combined with thedrones, and can then you start now the picture
is starting to become a little bit clearer toyou, hopefully, of kind of where the direction
in the future of what we're trying to bring tothe industry is.
(49:04):
No.
That's cool.
That's super forefront.
I love, obviously, we love always love the useof technology, but we love anytime that there's
innovation we see in the space.
It's just always needed and always welcome.
I would argue that there's even pricinginnovation happening and changing.
I think, I think the construction industry gotjealous about what the SaaS industry and
(49:25):
getting reoccurring revenues.
So maintenance is the way is the way to goabout doing that and still providing value,
which, coincidentally, increases EV.
It certainly can't hurt the the the valuationof the business to have recurring revenue,
let's say.
It may have some influence in driving yeah.
Because the technology industry really the SaaSindustry really got us.
(49:47):
I mean, used to be able to buy Microsoft anduse it for 10 years, and now I gotta pay for it
every month for life for life.
That's right.
That's right.
So you gotta gotta change, businesses gottachange to accommodate for that.
Death death $40 a subscriber at a time.
Yep.
That's
my 1,000 paper cuts.
Yep.
So as much as we'd love to talk for hours onend, you know, we always like to ask one last
(50:15):
question to all of our to all of our guests.
So, Aaron, if you were to go back 20 years,what advice would you give yourself?
What would you tell yourself?
You know what?
I always think about that question.
You know?
And, like, the easy answer is, like, I probablyshould have started my, retirement savings.
That's kind of an easy bullshit answer.
You know, I think that really the really whatit has to I wish that 20 years ago, you could
(50:41):
see the fruits of your labor and, like, whatyou were doing, and you'd be more encouraged to
do it.
I think, like, we're we're especially at thispoint in life, we we we very want the reward
immediately.
We know we're we're immediate gratificationculture with phones and that sort of stuff.
And I think I I kinda knew where I was going,and now, like, now that I'm really kind of
(51:02):
hitting my stride in my mid forties, but Ithink about, like, I'm 20 something years into
this journey of personal development.
Like, this wasn't, you know, you get kids thatcome in and they're like, I wanna do your job.
I'm like, well, forget about the next decade ofyour life because that's what it's gonna take
to do it.
You know, Jump on it early and do it in mytwenties, and I was persistent with it, but I
still think I could have done better.
Right?
I could have, you know, taken a couple nightsand gone to bed a little bit earlier, skipped a
(51:26):
couple parties that you went to in yourtwenties that really didn't benefit you.
But at the same time, that's part of life, andnavigating the social hierarchy is an important
piece of entrepreneurship and being being alight person and being able to have that
network of people.
So I I don't necessarily say I'd take thatback.
But I think having the if I could see what thefuture would hold and see that, like, the
(51:48):
persistence and the consistency pays off andthose times where you're kinda like,
everything's not going right and it's notpaying off.
And now it's kinda like, it's easy in hindsightto be like, oh yeah, I did all that stuff that
got me here.
But at the time you're kind of like up and downwith it.
So that's what I would say.
I appreciate the insight.
Good outlook, looking backwards.
(52:10):
So thank you for that.
Of course.
Yes.
So we will throw all, the social links and theshow notes and all that fun stuff.
But if somebody wanted to get a hold of you,what would be the best way for them to do that?
I think LinkedIn is probably the easiest way tofind me.
You know, I'm Aaron Moore, a a r o n m o o r e.
So so I'm pretty available on LinkedIn, andobviously, my email is always open,
aaron@ppdpainting.com.
(52:31):
So you can always contact me there, and I'mhappy.
I'm pretty on email a lot.
So that's an easy way to get ahold of me andhappy to help and provide any insight.
I feel like I've gotten a lot out of thisworld, so I should probably, you know, giving
it back and giving my 2¢.
I can't say that I'm always right.
That's for sure.
I I screw up more than I get right, but I'mpretty persistent.
(52:52):
So that's what I would say is just keep keepgrinding, and you get it wrong, just do it
again.
No.
For sure.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell ourlisteners before we say our goodbyes?
No.
I just really appreciate you guys having me on,and I I think this is a really cool podcast,
and I think what you guys are doing is great.
And, I like that we we didn't know each otherprior to I think one of the one of the gals in
(53:12):
my office set this up, and then we got on thephone yesterday, and it was like, oh, wait.
We know the same people.
Oh, yeah.
This entrepreneurial community is pretty small.
Yep.
We know some of the same people.
How do we not bump into each other?
Yep.
Connect the dots in about 5 minutes.
So if this is, you know, I think if you you'rea listener and you're listening to this, you
know, like, this is who I am and you hear theseconversations, it's like, just keep going for
(53:34):
it and, put yourself out there and get involvedin the communities and invest in yourself, and
then it'll all come together eventually.
Yeah.
No.
Absolutely.
Couldn't couldn't agree more.
So, thank you everybody for listening.
Meanwhile, had a blast.
It looks like Aaron had a good time sharing hisjourney with us, and, until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
(53:55):
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(54:17):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net
/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
Scale.
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