October 7, 2025 • 61 mins
Matt Chitwood shares his journey in the AEC industry and Pivium's challenges. He discusses their recent warehouse move, leadership changes, and balancing tradition with innovation. Matt shares insights on family dynamics, accountability in delegation, and hiring practices in family businesses. He explores leadership, managing personality traits, and the importance of an effective board, including lessons from tough advice. The episode also covers navigating technology challenges, risk assessments, and engaging with the local business community. Matt also underscores the value of networking.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So I I I I knew I wanted a board from earlyyears, and I made many, many attempts on doing
(00:09):
it my own.
And then I brought in an organization to helpme, and that was in started that in 2015, and
we're the board is still running today.
So you built a where did the idea of the boardactually come from?
That was from your was that actually from thementor, or or was that idea before that?
(00:30):
Have
you ever wondered how successful architecture,engineering, and construction companies scale
their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
(00:52):
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
(01:16):
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(01:37):
Today's guest is Mac Chitwood, the secondgeneration principal of Pivium.
Pivium is a nationwide full service design andintegrator for integration firm creating human
centered audio visual experiences since 1991.
Their philosophy, design eats technology forbreakfast.
Design should always confers with technologyenhancing the human experience.
(01:59):
Vivium partners with architects and facilityowners to design, implement, and manage AV
solutions that truly serve the people using thespace.
Matt is carrying forward the legacy from hisfather while also driving innovation for the
next generation.
He brings unique perspective on how AV anddesign can transform environments across
industries from hospitality to health care tocommercial spaces.
(02:22):
And with all that said, Matt, welcome to theshow.
Hey.
Yeah.
Good to be here, guys.
Really good to be here.
Yeah.
So, tell us a little bit more more about howyou got into the business, how that all, you
know, you know, maybe you were groomed from ayoung child with dad and saying like, you're
always gonna be in the AV business.
And that's that's it.
And then tell us about, Phippium.
(02:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, it was none of the sorts.
It really wasn't.
This wasn't on my bingo card.
This wasn't on my dad's bingo card.
It wasn't on my mom's.
You know, like like a like a lot of people inthe AV industry, I I fell into it.
Most people don't don't talk in first gradeabout wanting to grow up and be in the AV
business.
Most people don't go to college to study AVbecause there's very few places you can.
(03:09):
Most people start somewhere else and then justsort of fall into it.
Our industry too is made up of a lot of formermusicians, which I'm not.
I wish wish I was, but the industry was builtby these musicians in the eighties that just
realized they had some technical skills toconnect some equipment, a lot of those people
(03:29):
are going away.
But no, I I started out right out of right outof college into the low voltage space.
Okay.
I worked for an essentially, an integrationfirm that that put student ID card systems into
college campuses.
So I traveled to colleges colleges anduniversities every week from Sunday to Friday
(03:52):
installing these systems, learn the low voltagetrade, learn how to wire, learn about topology,
basics of electricity, all that kinda all thatkinda stuff, and learned to trade pretty good.
And then, man, my my dad had been running thislittle tiny business for a number of years,
(04:14):
and, I was kind of at a crossroads in my careerwhere I needed to make a a choice.
I had a young daughter at the time, and, if Iwas going to I felt like at least from my
perspective, if I was gonna advance within thatbusiness with this in this company, it's called
Blackboard, I would need to move back east toheadquarters, and I didn't wanna do that.
(04:40):
At the same time, my dad was had this little inessentially an integration business designing
and installing television systems intohospitals and dialysis facilities.
And it had it had gotten some legs.
It had grown a little bit bigger thanessentially wanted.
(05:02):
It was this little sort of side bedroombusiness to bridge between his career and
retirement.
And, he was looking at selling it, I was like,well, why don't we take a shot at doing
something together?
I've got some ideas.
You got this little thing started.
Let's see what we can do together.
And so I jumped in.
(05:23):
That's, that that's that's actually uniquebecause you were that wasn't the plan.
Right?
Like, this was, you know, as you said, likeYeah.
It wasn't on the bingo card.
Right?
Then, hey, you got dad, you're an entrepreneur.
You got this going already.
I have this background in low voltage.
Let's see what magic we can create.
So what what did that then look like?
(05:43):
So you you say, hey.
Let's go do this.
Are you you come, come back home is is whathowever you wanna phrase that.
Kinda.
Yeah.
What what did that look like?
How how did working with dad go in thebeginning stages?
You know, it was, I mean, this thing was thisthis business was tiny.
I'm talking like most of the operation was outof the spare bedroom of their home.
(06:07):
Mhmm.
And essentially, it was my mom and my dad andmy sister, my sister's kind of boyfriend,
friend, guy, who still works for me, by theway.
And then he had brought a guy in to kind ofmanage their warehouse.
So he got a little tiny warehouse space over atSeventh Avenue in Deer Valley.
(06:28):
Okay.
So they could store TVs because at the time,like, the the majority of what they were
selling was twenty twenty seven inch CRTtelevision.
So these things were in big boxes.
They weighed 65, 70 pounds.
Yeah.
UPS driver hated pulling up to the back of thatwarehouse because we'd be sent, you know, 20 of
those things out at the time.
(06:48):
They took up a lot of space.
They're heavy.
Oh, yeah.
So, you know, it was it was really, reallybasic.
So, we had this spare bedroom of the home andthis warehouse.
So I showed up and I think I probably workedfor about six months, nine months, maybe a year
out of that little warehouse.
We had a front area that was like concretefloor, very, very basic.
(07:14):
There was one computer in the business thatessentially ran QuickBooks and some word
processing and Excel which, you know, which wedid all of our purchase orders, like all like
really, really basic stuff.
I jumped in.
I'm like, okay.
We've got a we've got a we've got we everybodyneeds a computer.
(07:34):
This is back in 02/2005, you know.
So, you know, we've come a long way in twentyin twenty years just generally speaking in in
business and and computing.
Everybody needs a computer.
Here are some things we gotta do.
We gotta build we gotta standardize ourprocesses, standardize how we're doing things.
(07:57):
Not everybody has to have all their hands ineverything all the time.
Let's let's sort of specialize some of ourroles, like, these kinds of things that just
kinda one foot in in front of the other.
And you know, it was generally speaking, my mydad and and my mom.
She was she was really the the supporting cast.
(08:21):
It was my dad's was my dad's thing.
He really gave me autonomy to do what I wantedto do in the business.
I think he saw the potential.
He saw he saw some potential in me.
I had I had recently come out of graduateschool, so maybe I I don't know.
Maybe I knew something I had I had put intointo the real world, test myself at least, and
(08:45):
he gave me a little bit of rope.
And he did a really good job of that too.
And I can share a little bit more about thatdown the road.
But this was like his thing.
Like, he was the entrepreneur.
He's the guy who had been selling TVs.
He had most of his professional career wasselling televisions for RCA.
Okay.
Old old brand.
(09:05):
Oh, yeah.
And he, you know, he was this was his thing.
So, like, everything that I changed in thebusiness was something that at the time, a year
before, three or four years before, was theright thing for him to do when it was this this
little two, three man operation.
(09:27):
Mhmm.
But he gave me that that ability to do that andhe did a pretty good job of kind of staying
distant as I made some changes.
And then he, you know, his plan, his hisultimate plan because, you know, I was right on
the doorstep of him selling the business andand getting the heck out of there.
(09:48):
I mean, he ultimately wanted to go play moregolf.
And so one of the things that he did early onwas he just I mean, this is after maybe six,
nine months I had been around.
We had worked together and I knew how thingskinda operated.
As he said, okay.
Now I'm gonna take a day a day off every week.
(10:11):
And it's gonna be the same day for the mostpart.
And then that'll give you a day where I'm notaround.
And you can do the things you wanna do.
Keep on doing things you wanna do.
That will that will just give you sort of likegradually taking off the training wheels.
Yeah.
Oh, this is super smart.
I I am so in love with that concept of likejust stepping out for and but you know the day.
(10:35):
So whether shit is hitting the fan or thingsare all smooth.
Right?
But it gives you a day in the week where youjust know that any decision that's being made,
it's on you.
That is so smart.
It
was pretty it was pretty wise.
It really was.
And then, you know, year two, two days.
(10:59):
And then year three, and then gradually hethat's effectively how he worked himself out of
the out of the operation.
Yeah.
That's suit that's smart.
Obviously, the transition to you.
Right?
That makes tons of sense.
Hey.
That's probably just smart for an owner ingeneral that wants to be able to be out of the
(11:20):
business and just be an owner.
Right?
Like, even if, he wanted to say, hey, I justwanna still be an owner.
I want you to run it.
And, you know, I'll give you x amount x of theyear, whatever that setup becomes.
Like, that's just a genius idea by him, butjust in total for any owner that like, hey,
remove yourself from the business so then youcan focus on other stuff.
(11:41):
Either going fishing or starting anotherbusiness because many entrepreneurs feel like
the need to do something else with their time,but that makes tons of sense.
Yeah.
Isn't that the truth?
It really is.
I've I've actually told a lot of a lot ofbusiness owners that thing because it's the
hardest thing to do.
When you're the when you're the guy, it's it'shard to peel yourself away.
(12:03):
And and that's hard.
I I think that's probably one of the reasonswhy a a lot of businesses do fail a
generational transition is is you've got theone that started it all that had some really,
really good ideas originally, but hasn'tessentially been able to change them much in in
a lot of cases over time.
(12:23):
And then you've got somebody new stepping in,whether it's within the family or outside the
family.
And then yet you still got this other personbreathing down your neck all day long about
what you should do and how you should be doingit.
So, yeah, I think it was a great idea.
Yeah.
Super smart.
So, like, how yeah.
(12:44):
How you how do you get people to, makedecisions?
Or how do you get people to, deal with the theissues that come up?
Well, you gotta give them the opportunity to doit.
And, you know, a day a week is just a simple,you know, simple I say simple.
Simple in in, structure to say, like, I'm notgonna I'm gonna make you, you know, deal with
(13:05):
whatever happens that day compared to these arethe issues I wanna try to send down to you kind
of a thing.
So yeah, that's awesome.
Do
you remember any of the early decisions thatyou made like, okay, now it's on me and did you
ever doubt yourself when it was just like oneday a week or when did it start feeling more
(13:28):
like, oh, I don't have as much of a safety net,right?
When you're making decisions?
Did you ever have those type of feelings?
And if so, you recall, any stories around that?
One of the first big decisions that heessentially gave me the the the final decision
on was relocating our our business property.
(13:51):
So we had that that small little warehouse,which is right around the corner and then, we
had talked about like moving it, moving theentire operation into a into a building and so
we went out and and we looked, I was, I wasliving in a different area of town at at the
time and so I was looking at at buying abuilding in that area of town.
(14:15):
I was looking in a a bunch of different areasand and when we when when I finally settled on
ultimately where we're located here now, thatwas pretty big because I thought, okay, this is
this is putting kind of a stake in the ground.
You know, we're taking a lot of or investing alot of money in a in a in a in a condo, a shell
(14:40):
essentially.
It was it was brand new and we had to build itout and figure that all out and I had never
done that before And I thought, well, I I'm notsure, like, how much space do we need for the
office versus the warehouse?
How many like, all those kinds of things werepretty big decisions for me at the time.
(15:01):
So that was one thing that that essentially wasprobably one of those decisions early on I I
made on my own.
After that, we I started making some personneldecisions that that he let me make.
We needed some bring some additional people into add to the to the operation, and that was,
(15:27):
you know, oddly enough.
That that was a place where he he gave me theautonomy and I made the choices and then, he
always let me know after that.
I was spending a little too much on on payroll.
Uh-huh.
And in fact, you know, he just he passed away ayear ago and and even till the till the till
(15:47):
the later you know, the later days, he wouldstill ask me about my, you know, how much what
tell me about your payroll.
I think you're still probably spending toomuch.
He that was just always the thing.
I think he just was always very, very sensitivearound that.
Probably came from something that some otherexperience that he had within probably RCA when
(16:10):
when he was a division manager that he was justreally, really sensitive about.
That was always one of those one of thosethings.
K.
Very interesting.
Yep.
How was it, so you obviously, you're buildingnew processes where you come in and you say,
hey.
Like, we should do things differently.
How how do you balance that, you know, honoringwhat essentially what what has worked?
(16:32):
Right?
Like, what has gotten to this point to theneither changing that and saying, like, you
know, what got us here won't get us there.
But then also, like, let's not lose the thesoul of the business, essentially.
You know, how how is how is it balancing those,like, changing of processes?
And then, obviously, for anybody that's in thebusiness and as you, you know, as you grow,
(16:55):
it's like, well, now it affects more peoplethan just mom, dad, sister, the the friend.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, there's probably more I mean, lookingback and thinking about it, I I probably as
much as I would I'd like to think I wassensitive about my approach in which I was
(17:19):
communicating what we're doing, how we're doingit, why we were doing it.
I was probably more of a bulldog than I wouldhave liked to have been.
But then again, when you're making changes likethat that need to be done and you have a pretty
old school mentality about how things are done,why we do them, you know, lot of lot of
(17:47):
handwritten paperwork on yellow ledgers, like alot of that type of accounting and record
keeping and things like that.
And, man, like, you know, sometimes it's like,we're just not doing that anymore and I I I
don't know what to tell you except for likepeople aren't doing that anymore like and we're
(18:09):
behind the times.
Yeah.
Kind of thing and you know, I had to be carefuldepending on the role.
If it was if it was my mom, like my mom or mysister, you know, I had to be more sensitive
around those roles, the the family rolesbecause at the end of the day, they're still my
family.
The the team, as we started to build the teamgradually, I think understood that a little bit
(18:35):
more, and they were probably more interested ingoing, yeah, let's let's make the change.
Let's do this.
Let's, you know, let's make let'soperationalize these things.
Let's get into some software.
Let's do all those kinds of things.
So it's a little bit of kinda consensusbuilding with the group, but maybe helping, you
(18:56):
know, using my, you know you know, in a sense,it's a it's an it's an age thing.
You know?
Like, some of my younger crew here to encouragesome of these that have been around a little
longer than a little bit more set in their waysand how things have always been done to kinda
just push that along.
Yeah.
That's actually super interesting.
(19:17):
An age component.
You know, you you do business at a certaintime, and then there are certain ideas that
work at that time.
But as as, you know, as you've gone through thebusiness, now you are older than you were when
that was happening.
How do you keep on top of making sure that youdon't fall into that same this is how we do it
(19:37):
trap?
And this is how we've always done it trap.
Yeah.
This is how we've always done it.
That's why we do it this way.
Yeah.
Isn't that the truth?
Yeah.
You know, man, I I I a lot of that comes downto I I really think the name of the game for me
and and, like, I I would I would highlyencourage other business owners or people that
(20:01):
are in management to think about this.
I think the name of the game there isdelegation and how you delegate things to the
those that are working for you or around you orwith you depending on the makeup.
It could be within a it could be within a team.
It could be within a company structure.
Whatever it is, I think it's all aboutdelegation because when you're delegating
(20:25):
something to somebody, you're entrusting themto make the the best decision.
And if you've got the right people that are onthe team, you got the A players that you trust
with what they're doing, then you've gottathink that they've got the best interest of the
business in mind.
(20:45):
And and and if they don't and, you know, youyou figure that out over time, then you have to
you have to make a switch.
But I I have to delegate those those things andthose changes and the ability to evaluate how
we're doing business to them and theneffectively turn my head and and trust to them
(21:06):
that they're doing it, making those changes.
And and I I I have seen myself get a little bitback too close to the bubble and go and I and I
feel myself in the weeds and I've got my strongopinions about things and I got I I gotta I
just gotta go.
I gotta turn my head.
I gotta, you know, essentially step out for myfor a day, you know, to to come you know,
(21:31):
compared to what my my dad did and stay awayand let that let that happen.
Oh, that's actually a really good thought thatconnecting it up full circle of saying Yeah.
I have now delegated.
I have done the same, even though I'm not I'mnot leaving the business, but I am Sure.
I've done the same, so now I need to take thisstep out.
(21:52):
Yeah.
I just last night, was at an event, for Stateforty eight, and the president of Four Peaks
Brewing was there.
And he was talking about this specifically ofsaying, like, you have to be okay with somebody
else making a decision even if it's not the youknow, in his case, it's not the product or, you
know, pitch to the beer of of what, you know,he he would go for, because you have to let
(22:16):
that happen.
Otherwise, you'll never get to do the nextthing and the next thing.
And as you think about, you know, growing abusiness, you you have to focus on that, not on
the day to day, oh, you know, what what didthat install look like?
Or, you know, why did we go after thisparticular company?
It's like, you gotta think of it, biggerpicture.
(22:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely definitely do.
And you know what?
Sometimes sometimes things are done.
I and, you know, I I've got a little head shakeor I gotta, you know, bite my tongue or
whatever, and that that's okay.
That's alright.
Yeah.
You know, I guess when we're talking aboutdelegation, do you have sort of a rule set or a
(23:01):
litmus test that you use to sort of becausethere are some decisions, like, you know, you
can give to an employee, but they could theycould change the direction of where the company
is going.
Right?
And typically, that would be in a leadershipposition.
Right?
So there is sort of that, we'll call itaccountability authority balance, right?
(23:24):
If you're giving someone the authority to makethat decision, there's also the keeping them
accountable to whatever that decision is.
How do you do that?
Like, how do you Yeah.
How do you do that?
Yeah.
You know, it's a it's a process.
And by by process, I mean, I've got I've gotstructure in the play in place with my
(23:49):
leadership, who I'm talking to constantly on aon a weekly basis.
We're reviewing the things that have happenedin the in the past week, the things that are
happening in the week to come.
We're looking at measurements.
We're looking at metrics.
There are things that we're just constantlychecking on.
(24:10):
The small litmus tests, if you will.
And, you know, it's I I think it's just a youkind of over time with your with your people,
kind of like a kinda like a team that's like alike a like a sports team to make that
(24:34):
comparison that knows that when they go on thatfield, they've gotta trust the person that's
gonna catch the ball, run the play, do whateverit is they're doing.
But there's also behind that, and it lags alittle bit, that gel that comes together when
(24:58):
you feel and you even though you've alwaystrusted that person, now you you you're you're
so well connected that you almost know whatthey're going to do before they do it kind of
thing And I think that's an important place toget to with those that you're entrusting to
make decisions for you.
(25:20):
And it doesn't come right out of the gate.
It takes some time to build that.
But so that you can then, you know, then youknow when you're in a conversation and
something doesn't seem right or you feel likemaybe you need to ask a question a different
way.
(25:40):
You know, you have the ability to do thatbecause you know that person so well.
So it's not a you know, it's it's a little bitof structure and it's a little bit of of art in
a sense to really, really know the people thatyou've trusted with you making your leadership
decisions.
(26:02):
That is a good way to kind of break that down.
You know, do you have any do have any storiesaround someone that you've entrusted with, you
felt like you've gelled, but they surprised youwith the decision?
(26:23):
Good or bad.
Right?
Listen.
Good or bad.
Yeah.
That surprises can be go either way.
I should I should have said that it can goeither way.
Yes.
Yes.
It could be a, oh, I would not have thought todo that, but wow, did that work.
Yeah.
(26:43):
You know, a a big one's not coming to mind.
There's a I I've I've gotten to with the withthe woman that runs my organization right now
is my president.
Mhmm.
Over the years, I've I've figured out that whenwe're hiring people, we see things from a
(27:07):
completely different perspective.
And and so I we are her and I are both involvedanytime we hire somebody.
Although sometimes and occasionally, it dependson on where the the individual's coming from.
Sometimes it comes from me.
(27:27):
I I've gotten to know somebody in in theindustry or whatever.
Sometimes it's comes from a recruiter orwhatever and kinda feeds up in my direction.
But we always her and I both spend time withthe candidate, and we ask things from a
different perspective, and then we we gettogether and talk through these kind of
(27:49):
different perspectives.
And so that's just one way that we've kind oflooked at things a little bit differently.
It doesn't completely answer the the question.
I'm trying to think of if there's beensomething like that that's that's been
significant in the business that there has tohave been.
(28:09):
Nothing's jumping out of me at the moment,though.
Okay.
Okay.
That's fine.
Yeah.
And and maybe that's maybe that is a good sign.
Right?
That when you gelled enough, you justunderstand the decision making tree or
framework that they're that they're goingthrough and that it's similar to what you would
have gone through.
Right?
(28:30):
Sure.
Which is which can be really positive results.
Right?
You're replicating a portion of yourself, youknow, in the business, or at least you
understand that everyone's on the same page.
Yeah.
So
then did that come from your dad as well wherehe replicated, you know, essentially, you are a
(28:54):
replica of a portion of him, not necessarilyjust in DNA.
I'm talking about, like, the actual thinkingprocess.
A a little bit.
And it's it's more personality.
K.
And it's more of those things I've I've I'vecome to recognize over the years.
He was always a shoot first and then thinkabout it after the fact kind of approach to
(29:23):
things.
Okay.
Just in general.
I mean, like, all kinds of things.
We we we we had some sort of some kind ofreflection around that after after he passed
away because he just he would just do somethingand then go, oh, well, I forgot about this.
I didn't think about this.
And but he'd always figured out because he washe just kinda had that kinda way about him.
(29:45):
I my approach to decisions is start thinkingabout it, analyze it, put it over to the side
for a little bit, come back to it in a fewweeks, think it through a little bit more,
maybe bounce it off a person, analyze it somemore, like I and that's that's something I've
(30:05):
had to work on over the years is is beingbetter about being quicker about making
decisions.
So we had two different approaches there in ourperspectives, which definitely definitely gave
us our fair share of little conflicts in the inthe early in the early years.
(30:29):
But that was that that definitely was one ofthose things that was probably the hardest
thing for us.
But the the thing about my personality now thatI'm kind of recognizing that I I don't know if
it's one of those sort of DNA things or what,but I have I have, the patience of an ant.
And and if I'm, like, if I'm I I get I getfrustrated about things, and I'll be and then I
(30:56):
it's kinda like I get backed into a corner.
And, over the years, we've done lots ofpersonality testing.
I kinda recognize it, like, under pressure.
I get very, very not not necessarilyaggressive, but I'm very very quick to jump on
the things.
That's good in some sense, but I've got to bereally really careful about that too because
(31:18):
then I I can really I can easily say somethingthat I regret or I'm you know, I make a
decision that I regret.
So I gotta I gotta know when that's coming andbe very, very careful about how I how I use
that superpower.
Yeah.
It it sounds like, you're dead fit the, say,more traditional entrepreneurial role where
(31:40):
it's like, you know, jump off the cliff andbuild the plane on the way down, where you were
like, no, no, no, no, We're gonna design theplane.
I'm gonna I'm gonna put it through engineering.
I'm gonna then, you know, have some consultantscome in, and then I'm gonna get it actually
built, and then we are gonna take off comparedto, like, just jump and go, which is that
interesting for the the the patience partbecause, like, well, if you don't
(32:04):
have a
lot of patience, how can you do all thesethings?
Right?
Yep.
But that's human the beauty of humans and howwe how we are.
How do you how does that how do you deal withthat in regards to leadership, though?
Because, like, inherently, as a leader, you'reyou are trying to be calm and cool and
collective because, like, hey.
I have to make sure everybody is is doing thedoing the right thing, but then also is in a an
(32:28):
environment that's calm and clean and all that.
So how do you, manage that thing that you knowabout yourself?
Right?
Knowing is a huge component to this.
But then also not, you know, letting it show somuch to everybody else on the team.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's it really comes down tosituational awareness and just just knowing my
(32:51):
knowing myself and feeling when I'm gettinginto a and I like, like, what what I'll do is
if I if I sense that I'm getting to a pointwhere I'm frustrated about something and I
wanna say something, I'll I'll I'll vent tosomebody that I know I can I can vent to and
just
Mhmm?
Vent.
If it's in personal or maybe it's something ina kind of a virtual environment.
(33:14):
I'll send a message and just sort of kind oflike just kinda dissipates a little bit of the
little bit of the frustration.
Okay.
And and also too, we've we've we've done we'vedone, you know, some some personality testing
within the organization.
So we all know each other's strengths and howeach other is wired.
(33:36):
And so, you know, that's another thing too.
It's just just always being sensitive to whowe're communicating with and how they're gonna
receive something, because it's not necessarilygonna be received how I would receive it.
So that's the that's the kind of perspective.
You know, we did a lot we did a lot of work,early on with with DISC.
(33:56):
And so we're all very, very keenly aware of howeach of us is wired.
And and so, at the end of the day, it's justbeing, you know, being aware of that.
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
You'd mentioned having a place to vent.
One big unique about you, or the business isyou have a board.
(34:17):
Is that a place, to vent or is that not that'snot the right place to to have that happen?
Oh, no.
Yeah.
No.
It it definitely is.
Yeah.
I've I've I've vented to the board over theyears.
I I I vent to I vent to them one on oneoccasionally about very, very various things.
Uh-huh.
There's some things I've been venting to themfor a little while about.
(34:40):
And then we have a conversation about that andwhy I've been venting with them for a little
while or a long while, depending on the on thesitch on the on the the thing.
But, yeah, the board has been a a wonderful,backstop.
You know, that whole idea, you know, a mentorof mine from some time ago used to talk about
(35:06):
jet jet airplanes not having rearview mirrors.
And so you can't see necessarily, like, thestuff that's around you when you're when you're
trucking along and you're you got your headdown.
And so, my original intent was just to build anadvisory board around my business to help me
see my blind spots.
Mhmm.
Because, I knew I was gonna have them.
(35:27):
I knew I wasn't gonna know everything, and I'dmuch rather take the advice of somebody that's
been through something and done something andjust do it my own, and and it's a more
expensive mistake.
And so I I I I knew I wanted a board from earlyyears, and I made many, many attempts on doing
(35:49):
it my own, and then I brought in anorganization to help me, and that was in when
we started out in 2015, and we're the board isstill running today.
So you built a where did the idea of the boardactually come from?
That was from your was that actually from thementor, or or was that idea before that?
(36:10):
Wasn't.
You know, years ago, one of one of ourmanufacturing partners in Dayton, Ohio, a
company called PDI Communication Systems, theywere just trying to make sure that their sales
channel, the company selling their productswere were strong, they were thinking about
building their businesses because there are alot of small businesses like mine that
(36:32):
entrepreneurs that, you know, that they dotheir thing and then they do it.
And then next thing you know, they wake up andthey're seven years old and they're going, what
am I doing?
I never thought about transitioning my businessor, you know, building structure and all those
kinds of things.
And so there's an organization in in NorthernOhio called Aileron, just up the road from from
(36:54):
PEI.
And they paid for me to go out to course calledthe course for presidents.
Essentially, it's it's thinking about, youknow, getting out of your business and thinking
about building your business.
And it gets you out to this really, reallybeautiful facility for several days, and they
bring in some some great, really, really smartpeople to help people that are leading their
(37:17):
businesses.
And it gave me some ideas.
And along the way, they talked about theconcept of an of an advisory board.
And so that kind of planted the seed.
I was thinking about that a bit.
Then I went back a little while later, I don'tknow six months or a year later and I went to
another course there called how to build aboard.
(37:40):
This organization Alerom was founded by a guynamed Clay Mattiel, was the founder of Eames
Pet Food.
And he had some really, really great advicearound and and some really great statistics
around companies that have boards versus thatdon't and the failure rate of businesses that
(38:00):
have boards that that don't.
And that that struck really, really hard, tome, and it was it was in the the early years of
the of the of the transition of the biz of theownership transition of the business.
And I thought, man, I gotta I gotta do this.
And so, I made a couple attempts at my on myown, and then I I found a a great organization
(38:26):
called Board Developer that helped me actuallydo it, that helped me go out and find awesome
candidates, manage the board, and do all thatkind of stuff, and it's been been a wonderful
ride.
Since you went through a course, and this isvery unique.
So building a board, what is it that someonethat's looking to even potentially build a
(38:50):
board or thinking about this, what should theybe thinking about when building a board?
How does one go about it?
Right?
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about those experiences inbuilding a board.
You know, what I'm gonna start out with one ofthe things that I've this is very, common that
(39:10):
I would I would highly I would highly suggestthat owners and leaders are careful about is
not bringing in somebody that's too close tothe business.
That's a friend or a manufacturer or somebodylike that.
(39:33):
You need some really, really good objectiveadvice.
So that's kind of a filter to run everythingthrough.
And then I would assess strengths of the theowner or the leadership team or whoever is is
going down this this path.
Where do where do your experiences lie?
(39:55):
What have you done in the past?
For me, I've never been a numbers person.
I I just not one of those things that camenaturally to me in undergrad and grad school.
I had to work really, really hard in accountingand finance and econ.
It just it was always always a grind.
And so I know I knew I needed somebody that hada numbers mentality.
(40:19):
I I I I wanted somebody that ideally came froman accounting background or a financial
leadership position, so I knew I needed that.
I also knew that kind of, you know, sort ofthinking about my business.
Okay.
Who are the who are the people that are outthere that are have something that I need that
(40:45):
I don't necessarily have in part of my team?
And in our world of of design, and integration,architecture's a big thing.
One of my one of my passions early in my eraand even in, from the earliest in high school,
I I I secretly wanted to be an architect.
(41:07):
In fact, I I applied to a couple schools fortheir architecture program, ASU and Clemson
being two of them, along with where I ended upgoing, which was Indiana.
And I and I, like, I knew that if I got intoIndiana, I was gonna go there anyway.
It's a it was kind of a family thing.
It was part of my DNA.
(41:27):
It was just it was easy.
But so I didn't go the architecture route, butI really, really I've always been intrigued by
architecture, and it's really, really criticalto our business.
And so I knew I needed I wanted an architect onthe on the board.
And early on too, although I'd done a whole lotof, work in the low voltage space as a
(41:48):
contractor, very little of my work had everbeen with, like, construction projects in in
process.
And so I knew that I needed some somebody tohelp advise me on the the the whole process of
building the built environment.
And so I wanted a I wanted a contractor on myboard.
(42:11):
And then, also too, early on, when I built theboard, our business was a 100% in health care.
And so I wanted somewhere from the health carespace.
And I looked at lots of different differentkinds of roles.
I ended up with a with a physician, a physicianwho was also in a leadership role with a large
healthcare organization locally.
(42:32):
So from from my standpoint, like, those werethings that were just, like, things about my
business that I knew that I bring anything tothe table in those areas.
And so therefore, I wanted somebody that wasgoing to have some level of subject matter
expertise to just help me through those things.
(42:55):
I had to bring in a early on, an operationsperson from an from an airline on too that was
wonderful because he had a really, really goodoperations mindset.
So as we were building the team in the earlyyears and and part of the building of the team
was also, like, we had some roles early on,some some people that had crept into the
(43:19):
business before we were really, reallydiscerning about how we were hiring people.
And so some of this was transition, like, youknow, getting some people off the team and
bringing some people in to to fill those seats.
And so that operational advice was really,really helpful early on.
So it was just the like, kind of an assessmentof, like, leadership strengths and weaknesses,
(43:44):
and then also kind of the things that we neededin in the business too and and some people that
could really advise us in those areas.
Were there any instances that you can think ofwhere going either tough situations or where
(44:05):
when you went to the board, they essentiallygave you an answer that was tough to hear.
But you, you know, after you had your pityparty, if you will, you you went with you went
with with that decision.
Gosh.
Oh my gosh.
(44:26):
And it, like, makes the hair on the back of myneck stand up.
Like, I I will never ever forget there's twothings.
I'll never forget my first meeting ever.
I walked in there, and I had spent I had spenttime with these people.
We had had meals together and all thatthroughout the process of kinda courting these
(44:49):
board members and things like that.
We they knew lots about the business and me andeverything and what what I was looking to do,
but I came in with my agenda and then I justgot like absolutely picked apart.
Absolutely picked apart.
Now granted, you know, this this is an advisoryboard and I and and the way my board is
(45:09):
structured, I don't pay my board members.
Some some do.
I just decided that's that's not how I'm gonnaoperate my board.
And and you know and they they can't fire mebut I I always knew that I would treat their
advice as if they could fire me.
And, you know, that's the kind of relationshipI wanted.
(45:31):
I wanted that.
And I made that very, very clear to them too.
Like, I want your most objective, hard,constructive criticism that you can possibly
give me.
And that meeting, went in with all my greatideas about things I wanted to do with the
business, and they essentially told me, that'sgreat.
(45:52):
We're gonna put that over here for two or threeyears down the road.
Here are all the other things you need to startworking on.
Oh.
I it was a it was a tough pill to swallow.
It was everything I asked for, but it was atough tough pill to swallow.
A lot of them structurally, financially, likethings we needed to do, like, there's a lot of
(46:15):
that.
But man, that was that was brutal.
You were probably thinking, what did I getmyself into?
This is
Oh, man.
It was it was gnarly.
It really, really was.
I still every once in a while, we'll we'llwe'll kinda revisit that because I still have
two two of my original board members, and we'lltalk about those early days.
(46:38):
Man, it was tough.
And I still like the the second part of that isfor the first couple years, I would I would
leave those meetings absolutely, like, totallyexpended, like, completely wasted, just
depleted.
I would I would literally go outside.
(46:59):
We had there's a few of them we had in a at arestaurant in Old Town Scottsdale, and I go out
and just sit on this bench and just, like, justunwind and just try to write down as many
things as I possibly could.
Mean, took a lot of notes in the meeting, butjust write down as many things I could about,
like, just things that were on my mind becauseI wanted them to I didn't want them to kinda,
(47:20):
like, dissipate from my brain and my, like,kinda unwinding of the day.
Oh, it was it was crazy.
I and I still I mean, I still after ourmeetings now, I still feel similarly, but those
early years, man, man, it was it was brutal.
(47:43):
It sounds like there were a lot of operationalrelated things that they were picking you up
apart about rather than whatever your whateveryour new ideas.
Obviously, there was the people side, theprocess side, they probably were picking apart.
Anything on the technology side as well thatthey were picking apart?
(48:04):
Or was that was was that where your ideas were?
Yeah.
Like, by technology, you mean, like, ininternal systems?
Internal systems or yeah.
Broadly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We talked about a lot of that because early on,we knew and and we actually went through we
(48:24):
went through a period where we yeah.
When I started the board, we were using bothQuickBooks, so our accounting, you know, hardly
call call it an ERP, and and Salesforce as ourCRM, and they were we had some, you know, some
(48:45):
middleware that linked the two so that, youknow, we could share data between them.
And for whatever reason, the way that interfaceworked, I don't remember like, I remember this
occasion vividly.
I I just knew that the person at the QuickBookscustomer support out of Tucson said to me the
(49:08):
way that the interface hits the database, itdoes something, and it and it does something to
your file that essentially makes it a really,really good candidate for corruption.
And in 2017, I think, our database gotcorrupted, and and our QuickBooks effectively
(49:28):
came to a grinding halt.
Oh, jeez.
That
was painful, and we were down for a few days.
We brought it back up.
We had to start a brand new data file, and thenwe were living out of two data files.
So, you know, up until this date, out of thisdata file and so on and so forth, and and they
(49:52):
said, okay.
Like, the way you can prevent this in thefuture is by doing this maintenance on a
regular basis.
So we did that maintenance for a few years.
A few.
That sounds
so painful.
Yeah.
I'll get that.
That sounds unbelievably painful.
(50:15):
Yeah.
We went through an accounting system crash.
And and so at the time, we were talking aboutand we knew that we were eventually gonna grow
out of out of QuickBooks.
We needed something, you know, because we'reeffectively you know, we're in design and
construction.
So we we needed something that we were gonna beable to to to tailor to our our needs.
And so we had a lot a lot a lot of conversationabout when that would be and how to do that and
(50:42):
how to how to budget the dollars for that.
And, unfortunately, we never gotten to it untilit was too late again.
Mhmm.
Which came a few years ago couple years ago.
But that's maybe for another story for anothertime.
Because we did have another database corruptionissue that forced us into a adoption of a new
(51:08):
accounting platform and that's when weswitched.
So maybe learning lesson for those that are outthere.
What are the for anyone that's wants to learnfrom this, what would what would be the advice
that you would give them for either how toprevent the problem or how to, quote unquote,
(51:29):
see the problem before it actually becomes thebecomes, like, a legitimate issue, like, a
business stopping issue.
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of like one of those businesscontinuity things assessments.
Like, what are the things that would disruptyour business, interrupt your continuity for,
you know, a day at a minute, you know, ideallya day.
(51:53):
But sometimes, you know, these things areseveral days.
You know?
And, you know, that goes into that goes intobackups and maintenance and those sorts of
things.
Like, do as much as you can and back that stuffup religiously because that's your lifeblood.
And that's gonna help you with an IT issue, andthat's gonna, you know, potentially help you
(52:18):
down the road if you have some sort ofcybersecurity.
Yeah.
So
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
We do we do those all the time.
So technology risk assessments.
So there's a few different types.
Right?
So cybersecurity is a risk assessment.
The same way that you would like if you hadsomeone that was doing your books, you would
still have a third party that would be auditingthose books.
Usually, it's a CPA that's auditing.
Let's say you're in internal accounting.
(52:40):
You know, cyber cyber risk assessments, right?
Internal external.
Yeah.
Those are those are also common.
And then the business continuity riskassessment, right?
IT, those are all all different pieces tohaving risk around your technology.
So that's, so doing risk assessments, and forsmall business owners, sometimes the concept of
(53:02):
risk management is not in their vocabulary.
I know.
That is something that larger companies that islike something that's talked about daily and
weekly Yeah.
Versus small business.
I mean, you you see the you see the the badside of it all the time probably because
Oh, yeah.
You go on, what do I do?
(53:23):
Yep.
Or the ignorance of it of not realizing thathow much risk they are putting on themselves.
And it's not an if it's a when type ofsituation.
You are now in the place of, you know, you'rehoping your way through, you're going to get to
whatever that next leap is, and you're notgonna get there.
Yeah, right.
(53:44):
We see it all the time, yeah.
Right.
So, and I'd say for most for most companies,those risk assessments is extraordinarily eye
opening because it's it's a total Pandora'sbox.
But I think the way to leverage riskassessments is this becomes your roadmap of the
actual problems you need to be solving, right?
(54:05):
Like, are your high level risks.
These needs to be budgeted for attack.
And these are, you know, lower risk.
Deal with those down the road or not deal withthem, right?
Defer them.
Yeah, yeah.
So, Justin, I think it's time for our lastquestion.
Else?
(54:25):
Yeah.
I think it's time for our last question.
So on that note Alright.
Take it away.
Alright.
Well, we like to ask everybody this question atthe end of our episodes.
So, Matt, if you go back twenty years, 02/2005,quite the year for you, what advice would you
give yourself in 2005 if you go back in time?
(54:48):
Oh, man.
Going back in time.
You know, if I were to you know, one of thethings that I think, you know, was really,
really important about our business that wasimportant about our business at the time.
(55:10):
Like, when we started out, when I started out,we were a national integration supporter for
the healthcare space.
And
almost all of our clients were nationalhealthcare clients.
We had a big rehab client.
We had a few regional acute care IDNs like, youknow, hospital chains, you know, kind of thing.
(55:37):
We had a large dialysis customer, and ourperspective was always nationally.
And and therefore but we were a business thatoperated out of Phoenix, Arizona.
We had some lot of clients locally here in inPhoenix.
But I didn't spend a lot of time in the localbusiness community building relationships and
(56:01):
getting to know the who's who.
I've I had a really, really, really, reallygood, strong social, personal network.
I I lived here.
I moved here in 1995, so I've been here for awhile.
And I had, yeah, a lot of really, really goodrelationships there, but I had never really
(56:23):
plugged myself into the local businesscommunity.
And quite honestly, didn't really start doingthat until we renamed and repositioned the
company in 2019.
And and I I regret that.
I regret not getting more of a head start onthat.
(56:44):
So if I were to talk to my twenty year agoself, my 30 year old self, I would I would
highly suggest getting really, really pluggedinto the local business community.
You know, effectively digging digging the wellbefore being thirsty.
(57:04):
You know?
Because I really look at you know, now our ourbusiness, although we have clients in all
across the country, much of it is really,really based locally here in Arizona.
And and I and I and I wish I had more of a headstart on that.
That's that's really great advice.
One, tactical.
(57:26):
Like, I think just tacticality, great advice.
But then also two, big it's very big picture.
It it is, you know, build or dig the wellbefore you're thirsty is a great, analogy
there.
Yeah.
You know, you know, those things, you know, Idon't I don't don't care whether they're your
clients are all you know, even if my clientswere all outside the state of Arizona, still
(57:50):
those connections are really, really, reallycritical.
You need people in your court.
You need people that you can just grab a cup ofcoffee or beer and and bounce ideas off to off
with.
You need you need to know who your effectivelywho your competitors are.
You know?
You need to know them Yeah.
Personally too.
You know?
(58:11):
These things are really, really critical to thesuccess of a of a small business.
And, yeah, got a late start.
I feel like I've made a lot of ground over thelast several years and continue to do so, but,
you know, live and learn.
Alright.
No.
That's, good advice.
This has been a ton of fun.
If somebody wanted to get ahold of you, what'sthe best way for them to do that?
(58:34):
Oh, man.
They could, they could hit me up on onLinkedIn.
I think I'm I'm, Matt Chitwood LinkedIn slashMatt Chitwood.
There are a few others out there, by the way.
One of which my wife went to high school with,which is kinda funny.
That is very funny.
Same name as as me.
(58:54):
And I met him, and he's in our industry, by theway.
Wow.
That's crazy.
He literally is in our industry.
He's worked for a number of differentmanufacturers.
I met him a few years ago at a at an industryevent.
One of the moral stories.
But, yeah, LinkedIn.
You can hit us at our website, pivium.com,pivium.com.
(59:19):
I can be reached at matt.chipwood@PIVIUM.com.
Two t's in Matt, one t in chipwood.
It is Chipwood With A C and not Shipwood withan s.
Mhmm.
Before.
That's funny.
Yeah.
Lots of ways you can touch with me.
Yeah.
I'd love to talk to
yes.
(59:39):
Build the community as you were Right.
Just saying.
Yeah.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell thepeople before we say goodbye?
No.
No.
I just think, it's been good good to get toknow both of you.
It's been a lot of been a lot of fun.
I feel like I'm heading into this, I don'twanna say golden years because I have no
intention of of getting out of this businessanytime soon, but I feel like I'm heading into
(01:00:01):
this period in our business where we're hittinga really good stride.
I feel really good about a lot of things thatwe're doing, and I love what you guys are doing
locally with the in the, you know, the AACspace.
Yep.
Really awesome.
There's there's companies that are that arelike mine.
I meet people all the time that small shops,some smaller than than mine, some that are
(01:00:27):
small that are bigger than mine.
And I think everybody needs the the continuousreinforcement of people that are gonna pour
into them and advise them, connect them withpeople, and, be a good sounding board for just
business in general.
Because I tell you what, man, you know, wedon't need to be doing this stuff alone.
Yeah.
It's not for the faint of heart.
(01:00:48):
For sure.
You guys get that.
No.
We are definitively, better together.
You, build great things by doing it with othersfor sure.
So Yeah.
This listeners, this has been a ton of fun.
Me and Will had a blast.
Matt shared a ton of amazing nuggets in in myopinion.
And until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
(01:01:08):
Ciao.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more please share thisepisode with a friend, colleague, or on social
media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(01:01:33):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
So I I I I knew I wanted a board from earlyyears, and I made many, many attempts on doing
(00:09):
it my own.
And then I brought in an organization to helpme, and that was in started that in 2015, and
we're the board is still running today.
So you built a where did the idea of the boardactually come from?
That was from your was that actually from thementor, or or was that idea before that?
(00:30):
Have
you ever wondered how successful architecture,engineering, and construction companies scale
their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
(00:52):
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
(01:16):
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(01:37):
Today's guest is Mac Chitwood, the secondgeneration principal of Pivium.
Pivium is a nationwide full service design andintegrator for integration firm creating human
centered audio visual experiences since 1991.
Their philosophy, design eats technology forbreakfast.
Design should always confers with technologyenhancing the human experience.
(01:59):
Vivium partners with architects and facilityowners to design, implement, and manage AV
solutions that truly serve the people using thespace.
Matt is carrying forward the legacy from hisfather while also driving innovation for the
next generation.
He brings unique perspective on how AV anddesign can transform environments across
industries from hospitality to health care tocommercial spaces.
(02:22):
And with all that said, Matt, welcome to theshow.
Hey.
Yeah.
Good to be here, guys.
Really good to be here.
Yeah.
So, tell us a little bit more more about howyou got into the business, how that all, you
know, you know, maybe you were groomed from ayoung child with dad and saying like, you're
always gonna be in the AV business.
And that's that's it.
And then tell us about, Phippium.
(02:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, it was none of the sorts.
It really wasn't.
This wasn't on my bingo card.
This wasn't on my dad's bingo card.
It wasn't on my mom's.
You know, like like a like a lot of people inthe AV industry, I I fell into it.
Most people don't don't talk in first gradeabout wanting to grow up and be in the AV
business.
Most people don't go to college to study AVbecause there's very few places you can.
(03:09):
Most people start somewhere else and then justsort of fall into it.
Our industry too is made up of a lot of formermusicians, which I'm not.
I wish wish I was, but the industry was builtby these musicians in the eighties that just
realized they had some technical skills toconnect some equipment, a lot of those people
(03:29):
are going away.
But no, I I started out right out of right outof college into the low voltage space.
Okay.
I worked for an essentially, an integrationfirm that that put student ID card systems into
college campuses.
So I traveled to colleges colleges anduniversities every week from Sunday to Friday
(03:52):
installing these systems, learn the low voltagetrade, learn how to wire, learn about topology,
basics of electricity, all that kinda all thatkinda stuff, and learned to trade pretty good.
And then, man, my my dad had been running thislittle tiny business for a number of years,
(04:14):
and, I was kind of at a crossroads in my careerwhere I needed to make a a choice.
I had a young daughter at the time, and, if Iwas going to I felt like at least from my
perspective, if I was gonna advance within thatbusiness with this in this company, it's called
Blackboard, I would need to move back east toheadquarters, and I didn't wanna do that.
(04:40):
At the same time, my dad was had this little inessentially an integration business designing
and installing television systems intohospitals and dialysis facilities.
And it had it had gotten some legs.
It had grown a little bit bigger thanessentially wanted.
(05:02):
It was this little sort of side bedroombusiness to bridge between his career and
retirement.
And, he was looking at selling it, I was like,well, why don't we take a shot at doing
something together?
I've got some ideas.
You got this little thing started.
Let's see what we can do together.
And so I jumped in.
(05:23):
That's, that that's that's actually uniquebecause you were that wasn't the plan.
Right?
Like, this was, you know, as you said, likeYeah.
It wasn't on the bingo card.
Right?
Then, hey, you got dad, you're an entrepreneur.
You got this going already.
I have this background in low voltage.
Let's see what magic we can create.
So what what did that then look like?
(05:43):
So you you say, hey.
Let's go do this.
Are you you come, come back home is is whathowever you wanna phrase that.
Kinda.
Yeah.
What what did that look like?
How how did working with dad go in thebeginning stages?
You know, it was, I mean, this thing was thisthis business was tiny.
I'm talking like most of the operation was outof the spare bedroom of their home.
(06:07):
Mhmm.
And essentially, it was my mom and my dad andmy sister, my sister's kind of boyfriend,
friend, guy, who still works for me, by theway.
And then he had brought a guy in to kind ofmanage their warehouse.
So he got a little tiny warehouse space over atSeventh Avenue in Deer Valley.
(06:28):
Okay.
So they could store TVs because at the time,like, the the majority of what they were
selling was twenty twenty seven inch CRTtelevision.
So these things were in big boxes.
They weighed 65, 70 pounds.
Yeah.
UPS driver hated pulling up to the back of thatwarehouse because we'd be sent, you know, 20 of
those things out at the time.
(06:48):
They took up a lot of space.
They're heavy.
Oh, yeah.
So, you know, it was it was really, reallybasic.
So, we had this spare bedroom of the home andthis warehouse.
So I showed up and I think I probably workedfor about six months, nine months, maybe a year
out of that little warehouse.
We had a front area that was like concretefloor, very, very basic.
(07:14):
There was one computer in the business thatessentially ran QuickBooks and some word
processing and Excel which, you know, which wedid all of our purchase orders, like all like
really, really basic stuff.
I jumped in.
I'm like, okay.
We've got a we've got a we've got we everybodyneeds a computer.
(07:34):
This is back in 02/2005, you know.
So, you know, we've come a long way in twentyin twenty years just generally speaking in in
business and and computing.
Everybody needs a computer.
Here are some things we gotta do.
We gotta build we gotta standardize ourprocesses, standardize how we're doing things.
(07:57):
Not everybody has to have all their hands ineverything all the time.
Let's let's sort of specialize some of ourroles, like, these kinds of things that just
kinda one foot in in front of the other.
And you know, it was generally speaking, my mydad and and my mom.
She was she was really the the supporting cast.
(08:21):
It was my dad's was my dad's thing.
He really gave me autonomy to do what I wantedto do in the business.
I think he saw the potential.
He saw he saw some potential in me.
I had I had recently come out of graduateschool, so maybe I I don't know.
Maybe I knew something I had I had put intointo the real world, test myself at least, and
(08:45):
he gave me a little bit of rope.
And he did a really good job of that too.
And I can share a little bit more about thatdown the road.
But this was like his thing.
Like, he was the entrepreneur.
He's the guy who had been selling TVs.
He had most of his professional career wasselling televisions for RCA.
Okay.
Old old brand.
(09:05):
Oh, yeah.
And he, you know, he was this was his thing.
So, like, everything that I changed in thebusiness was something that at the time, a year
before, three or four years before, was theright thing for him to do when it was this this
little two, three man operation.
(09:27):
Mhmm.
But he gave me that that ability to do that andhe did a pretty good job of kind of staying
distant as I made some changes.
And then he, you know, his plan, his hisultimate plan because, you know, I was right on
the doorstep of him selling the business andand getting the heck out of there.
(09:48):
I mean, he ultimately wanted to go play moregolf.
And so one of the things that he did early onwas he just I mean, this is after maybe six,
nine months I had been around.
We had worked together and I knew how thingskinda operated.
As he said, okay.
Now I'm gonna take a day a day off every week.
(10:11):
And it's gonna be the same day for the mostpart.
And then that'll give you a day where I'm notaround.
And you can do the things you wanna do.
Keep on doing things you wanna do.
That will that will just give you sort of likegradually taking off the training wheels.
Yeah.
Oh, this is super smart.
I I am so in love with that concept of likejust stepping out for and but you know the day.
(10:35):
So whether shit is hitting the fan or thingsare all smooth.
Right?
But it gives you a day in the week where youjust know that any decision that's being made,
it's on you.
That is so smart.
It
was pretty it was pretty wise.
It really was.
And then, you know, year two, two days.
(10:59):
And then year three, and then gradually hethat's effectively how he worked himself out of
the out of the operation.
Yeah.
That's suit that's smart.
Obviously, the transition to you.
Right?
That makes tons of sense.
Hey.
That's probably just smart for an owner ingeneral that wants to be able to be out of the
(11:20):
business and just be an owner.
Right?
Like, even if, he wanted to say, hey, I justwanna still be an owner.
I want you to run it.
And, you know, I'll give you x amount x of theyear, whatever that setup becomes.
Like, that's just a genius idea by him, butjust in total for any owner that like, hey,
remove yourself from the business so then youcan focus on other stuff.
(11:41):
Either going fishing or starting anotherbusiness because many entrepreneurs feel like
the need to do something else with their time,but that makes tons of sense.
Yeah.
Isn't that the truth?
It really is.
I've I've actually told a lot of a lot ofbusiness owners that thing because it's the
hardest thing to do.
When you're the when you're the guy, it's it'shard to peel yourself away.
(12:03):
And and that's hard.
I I think that's probably one of the reasonswhy a a lot of businesses do fail a
generational transition is is you've got theone that started it all that had some really,
really good ideas originally, but hasn'tessentially been able to change them much in in
a lot of cases over time.
(12:23):
And then you've got somebody new stepping in,whether it's within the family or outside the
family.
And then yet you still got this other personbreathing down your neck all day long about
what you should do and how you should be doingit.
So, yeah, I think it was a great idea.
Yeah.
Super smart.
So, like, how yeah.
(12:44):
How you how do you get people to, makedecisions?
Or how do you get people to, deal with the theissues that come up?
Well, you gotta give them the opportunity to doit.
And, you know, a day a week is just a simple,you know, simple I say simple.
Simple in in, structure to say, like, I'm notgonna I'm gonna make you, you know, deal with
(13:05):
whatever happens that day compared to these arethe issues I wanna try to send down to you kind
of a thing.
So yeah, that's awesome.
Do
you remember any of the early decisions thatyou made like, okay, now it's on me and did you
ever doubt yourself when it was just like oneday a week or when did it start feeling more
(13:28):
like, oh, I don't have as much of a safety net,right?
When you're making decisions?
Did you ever have those type of feelings?
And if so, you recall, any stories around that?
One of the first big decisions that heessentially gave me the the the final decision
on was relocating our our business property.
(13:51):
So we had that that small little warehouse,which is right around the corner and then, we
had talked about like moving it, moving theentire operation into a into a building and so
we went out and and we looked, I was, I wasliving in a different area of town at at the
time and so I was looking at at buying abuilding in that area of town.
(14:15):
I was looking in a a bunch of different areasand and when we when when I finally settled on
ultimately where we're located here now, thatwas pretty big because I thought, okay, this is
this is putting kind of a stake in the ground.
You know, we're taking a lot of or investing alot of money in a in a in a in a condo, a shell
(14:40):
essentially.
It was it was brand new and we had to build itout and figure that all out and I had never
done that before And I thought, well, I I'm notsure, like, how much space do we need for the
office versus the warehouse?
How many like, all those kinds of things werepretty big decisions for me at the time.
(15:01):
So that was one thing that that essentially wasprobably one of those decisions early on I I
made on my own.
After that, we I started making some personneldecisions that that he let me make.
We needed some bring some additional people into add to the to the operation, and that was,
(15:27):
you know, oddly enough.
That that was a place where he he gave me theautonomy and I made the choices and then, he
always let me know after that.
I was spending a little too much on on payroll.
Uh-huh.
And in fact, you know, he just he passed away ayear ago and and even till the till the till
(15:47):
the later you know, the later days, he wouldstill ask me about my, you know, how much what
tell me about your payroll.
I think you're still probably spending toomuch.
He that was just always the thing.
I think he just was always very, very sensitivearound that.
Probably came from something that some otherexperience that he had within probably RCA when
(16:10):
when he was a division manager that he was justreally, really sensitive about.
That was always one of those one of thosethings.
K.
Very interesting.
Yep.
How was it, so you obviously, you're buildingnew processes where you come in and you say,
hey.
Like, we should do things differently.
How how do you balance that, you know, honoringwhat essentially what what has worked?
(16:32):
Right?
Like, what has gotten to this point to theneither changing that and saying, like, you
know, what got us here won't get us there.
But then also, like, let's not lose the thesoul of the business, essentially.
You know, how how is how is it balancing those,like, changing of processes?
And then, obviously, for anybody that's in thebusiness and as you, you know, as you grow,
(16:55):
it's like, well, now it affects more peoplethan just mom, dad, sister, the the friend.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, there's probably more I mean, lookingback and thinking about it, I I probably as
much as I would I'd like to think I wassensitive about my approach in which I was
(17:19):
communicating what we're doing, how we're doingit, why we were doing it.
I was probably more of a bulldog than I wouldhave liked to have been.
But then again, when you're making changes likethat that need to be done and you have a pretty
old school mentality about how things are done,why we do them, you know, lot of lot of
(17:47):
handwritten paperwork on yellow ledgers, like alot of that type of accounting and record
keeping and things like that.
And, man, like, you know, sometimes it's like,we're just not doing that anymore and I I I
don't know what to tell you except for likepeople aren't doing that anymore like and we're
(18:09):
behind the times.
Yeah.
Kind of thing and you know, I had to be carefuldepending on the role.
If it was if it was my mom, like my mom or mysister, you know, I had to be more sensitive
around those roles, the the family rolesbecause at the end of the day, they're still my
family.
The the team, as we started to build the teamgradually, I think understood that a little bit
(18:35):
more, and they were probably more interested ingoing, yeah, let's let's make the change.
Let's do this.
Let's, you know, let's make let'soperationalize these things.
Let's get into some software.
Let's do all those kinds of things.
So it's a little bit of kinda consensusbuilding with the group, but maybe helping, you
(18:56):
know, using my, you know you know, in a sense,it's a it's an it's an age thing.
You know?
Like, some of my younger crew here to encouragesome of these that have been around a little
longer than a little bit more set in their waysand how things have always been done to kinda
just push that along.
Yeah.
That's actually super interesting.
(19:17):
An age component.
You know, you you do business at a certaintime, and then there are certain ideas that
work at that time.
But as as, you know, as you've gone through thebusiness, now you are older than you were when
that was happening.
How do you keep on top of making sure that youdon't fall into that same this is how we do it
(19:37):
trap?
And this is how we've always done it trap.
Yeah.
This is how we've always done it.
That's why we do it this way.
Yeah.
Isn't that the truth?
Yeah.
You know, man, I I I a lot of that comes downto I I really think the name of the game for me
and and, like, I I would I would highlyencourage other business owners or people that
(20:01):
are in management to think about this.
I think the name of the game there isdelegation and how you delegate things to the
those that are working for you or around you orwith you depending on the makeup.
It could be within a it could be within a team.
It could be within a company structure.
Whatever it is, I think it's all aboutdelegation because when you're delegating
(20:25):
something to somebody, you're entrusting themto make the the best decision.
And if you've got the right people that are onthe team, you got the A players that you trust
with what they're doing, then you've gottathink that they've got the best interest of the
business in mind.
(20:45):
And and and if they don't and, you know, youyou figure that out over time, then you have to
you have to make a switch.
But I I have to delegate those those things andthose changes and the ability to evaluate how
we're doing business to them and theneffectively turn my head and and trust to them
(21:06):
that they're doing it, making those changes.
And and I I I have seen myself get a little bitback too close to the bubble and go and I and I
feel myself in the weeds and I've got my strongopinions about things and I got I I gotta I
just gotta go.
I gotta turn my head.
I gotta, you know, essentially step out for myfor a day, you know, to to come you know,
(21:31):
compared to what my my dad did and stay awayand let that let that happen.
Oh, that's actually a really good thought thatconnecting it up full circle of saying Yeah.
I have now delegated.
I have done the same, even though I'm not I'mnot leaving the business, but I am Sure.
I've done the same, so now I need to take thisstep out.
(21:52):
Yeah.
I just last night, was at an event, for Stateforty eight, and the president of Four Peaks
Brewing was there.
And he was talking about this specifically ofsaying, like, you have to be okay with somebody
else making a decision even if it's not the youknow, in his case, it's not the product or, you
know, pitch to the beer of of what, you know,he he would go for, because you have to let
(22:16):
that happen.
Otherwise, you'll never get to do the nextthing and the next thing.
And as you think about, you know, growing abusiness, you you have to focus on that, not on
the day to day, oh, you know, what what didthat install look like?
Or, you know, why did we go after thisparticular company?
It's like, you gotta think of it, biggerpicture.
(22:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Definitely definitely do.
And you know what?
Sometimes sometimes things are done.
I and, you know, I I've got a little head shakeor I gotta, you know, bite my tongue or
whatever, and that that's okay.
That's alright.
Yeah.
You know, I guess when we're talking aboutdelegation, do you have sort of a rule set or a
(23:01):
litmus test that you use to sort of becausethere are some decisions, like, you know, you
can give to an employee, but they could theycould change the direction of where the company
is going.
Right?
And typically, that would be in a leadershipposition.
Right?
So there is sort of that, we'll call itaccountability authority balance, right?
(23:24):
If you're giving someone the authority to makethat decision, there's also the keeping them
accountable to whatever that decision is.
How do you do that?
Like, how do you Yeah.
How do you do that?
Yeah.
You know, it's a it's a process.
And by by process, I mean, I've got I've gotstructure in the play in place with my
(23:49):
leadership, who I'm talking to constantly on aon a weekly basis.
We're reviewing the things that have happenedin the in the past week, the things that are
happening in the week to come.
We're looking at measurements.
We're looking at metrics.
There are things that we're just constantlychecking on.
(24:10):
The small litmus tests, if you will.
And, you know, it's I I think it's just a youkind of over time with your with your people,
kind of like a kinda like a team that's like alike a like a sports team to make that
(24:34):
comparison that knows that when they go on thatfield, they've gotta trust the person that's
gonna catch the ball, run the play, do whateverit is they're doing.
But there's also behind that, and it lags alittle bit, that gel that comes together when
(24:58):
you feel and you even though you've alwaystrusted that person, now you you you're you're
so well connected that you almost know whatthey're going to do before they do it kind of
thing And I think that's an important place toget to with those that you're entrusting to
make decisions for you.
(25:20):
And it doesn't come right out of the gate.
It takes some time to build that.
But so that you can then, you know, then youknow when you're in a conversation and
something doesn't seem right or you feel likemaybe you need to ask a question a different
way.
(25:40):
You know, you have the ability to do thatbecause you know that person so well.
So it's not a you know, it's it's a little bitof structure and it's a little bit of of art in
a sense to really, really know the people thatyou've trusted with you making your leadership
decisions.
(26:02):
That is a good way to kind of break that down.
You know, do you have any do have any storiesaround someone that you've entrusted with, you
felt like you've gelled, but they surprised youwith the decision?
(26:23):
Good or bad.
Right?
Listen.
Good or bad.
Yeah.
That surprises can be go either way.
I should I should have said that it can goeither way.
Yes.
Yes.
It could be a, oh, I would not have thought todo that, but wow, did that work.
Yeah.
(26:43):
You know, a a big one's not coming to mind.
There's a I I've I've gotten to with the withthe woman that runs my organization right now
is my president.
Mhmm.
Over the years, I've I've figured out that whenwe're hiring people, we see things from a
(27:07):
completely different perspective.
And and so I we are her and I are both involvedanytime we hire somebody.
Although sometimes and occasionally, it dependson on where the the individual's coming from.
Sometimes it comes from me.
(27:27):
I I've gotten to know somebody in in theindustry or whatever.
Sometimes it's comes from a recruiter orwhatever and kinda feeds up in my direction.
But we always her and I both spend time withthe candidate, and we ask things from a
different perspective, and then we we gettogether and talk through these kind of
(27:49):
different perspectives.
And so that's just one way that we've kind oflooked at things a little bit differently.
It doesn't completely answer the the question.
I'm trying to think of if there's beensomething like that that's that's been
significant in the business that there has tohave been.
(28:09):
Nothing's jumping out of me at the moment,though.
Okay.
Okay.
That's fine.
Yeah.
And and maybe that's maybe that is a good sign.
Right?
That when you gelled enough, you justunderstand the decision making tree or
framework that they're that they're goingthrough and that it's similar to what you would
have gone through.
Right?
(28:30):
Sure.
Which is which can be really positive results.
Right?
You're replicating a portion of yourself, youknow, in the business, or at least you
understand that everyone's on the same page.
Yeah.
So
then did that come from your dad as well wherehe replicated, you know, essentially, you are a
(28:54):
replica of a portion of him, not necessarilyjust in DNA.
I'm talking about, like, the actual thinkingprocess.
A a little bit.
And it's it's more personality.
K.
And it's more of those things I've I've I'vecome to recognize over the years.
He was always a shoot first and then thinkabout it after the fact kind of approach to
(29:23):
things.
Okay.
Just in general.
I mean, like, all kinds of things.
We we we we had some sort of some kind ofreflection around that after after he passed
away because he just he would just do somethingand then go, oh, well, I forgot about this.
I didn't think about this.
And but he'd always figured out because he washe just kinda had that kinda way about him.
(29:45):
I my approach to decisions is start thinkingabout it, analyze it, put it over to the side
for a little bit, come back to it in a fewweeks, think it through a little bit more,
maybe bounce it off a person, analyze it somemore, like I and that's that's something I've
(30:05):
had to work on over the years is is beingbetter about being quicker about making
decisions.
So we had two different approaches there in ourperspectives, which definitely definitely gave
us our fair share of little conflicts in the inthe early in the early years.
(30:29):
But that was that that definitely was one ofthose things that was probably the hardest
thing for us.
But the the thing about my personality now thatI'm kind of recognizing that I I don't know if
it's one of those sort of DNA things or what,but I have I have, the patience of an ant.
And and if I'm, like, if I'm I I get I getfrustrated about things, and I'll be and then I
(30:56):
it's kinda like I get backed into a corner.
And, over the years, we've done lots ofpersonality testing.
I kinda recognize it, like, under pressure.
I get very, very not not necessarilyaggressive, but I'm very very quick to jump on
the things.
That's good in some sense, but I've got to bereally really careful about that too because
(31:18):
then I I can really I can easily say somethingthat I regret or I'm you know, I make a
decision that I regret.
So I gotta I gotta know when that's coming andbe very, very careful about how I how I use
that superpower.
Yeah.
It it sounds like, you're dead fit the, say,more traditional entrepreneurial role where
(31:40):
it's like, you know, jump off the cliff andbuild the plane on the way down, where you were
like, no, no, no, no, We're gonna design theplane.
I'm gonna I'm gonna put it through engineering.
I'm gonna then, you know, have some consultantscome in, and then I'm gonna get it actually
built, and then we are gonna take off comparedto, like, just jump and go, which is that
interesting for the the the patience partbecause, like, well, if you don't
(32:04):
have a
lot of patience, how can you do all thesethings?
Right?
Yep.
But that's human the beauty of humans and howwe how we are.
How do you how does that how do you deal withthat in regards to leadership, though?
Because, like, inherently, as a leader, you'reyou are trying to be calm and cool and
collective because, like, hey.
I have to make sure everybody is is doing thedoing the right thing, but then also is in a an
(32:28):
environment that's calm and clean and all that.
So how do you, manage that thing that you knowabout yourself?
Right?
Knowing is a huge component to this.
But then also not, you know, letting it show somuch to everybody else on the team.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's it really comes down tosituational awareness and just just knowing my
(32:51):
knowing myself and feeling when I'm gettinginto a and I like, like, what what I'll do is
if I if I sense that I'm getting to a pointwhere I'm frustrated about something and I
wanna say something, I'll I'll I'll vent tosomebody that I know I can I can vent to and
just
Mhmm?
Vent.
If it's in personal or maybe it's something ina kind of a virtual environment.
(33:14):
I'll send a message and just sort of kind oflike just kinda dissipates a little bit of the
little bit of the frustration.
Okay.
And and also too, we've we've we've done we'vedone, you know, some some personality testing
within the organization.
So we all know each other's strengths and howeach other is wired.
(33:36):
And so, you know, that's another thing too.
It's just just always being sensitive to whowe're communicating with and how they're gonna
receive something, because it's not necessarilygonna be received how I would receive it.
So that's the that's the kind of perspective.
You know, we did a lot we did a lot of work,early on with with DISC.
(33:56):
And so we're all very, very keenly aware of howeach of us is wired.
And and so, at the end of the day, it's justbeing, you know, being aware of that.
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
You'd mentioned having a place to vent.
One big unique about you, or the business isyou have a board.
(34:17):
Is that a place, to vent or is that not that'snot the right place to to have that happen?
Oh, no.
Yeah.
No.
It it definitely is.
Yeah.
I've I've I've vented to the board over theyears.
I I I vent to I vent to them one on oneoccasionally about very, very various things.
Uh-huh.
There's some things I've been venting to themfor a little while about.
(34:40):
And then we have a conversation about that andwhy I've been venting with them for a little
while or a long while, depending on the on thesitch on the on the the thing.
But, yeah, the board has been a a wonderful,backstop.
You know, that whole idea, you know, a mentorof mine from some time ago used to talk about
(35:06):
jet jet airplanes not having rearview mirrors.
And so you can't see necessarily, like, thestuff that's around you when you're when you're
trucking along and you're you got your headdown.
And so, my original intent was just to build anadvisory board around my business to help me
see my blind spots.
Mhmm.
Because, I knew I was gonna have them.
(35:27):
I knew I wasn't gonna know everything, and I'dmuch rather take the advice of somebody that's
been through something and done something andjust do it my own, and and it's a more
expensive mistake.
And so I I I I knew I wanted a board from earlyyears, and I made many, many attempts on doing
(35:49):
it my own, and then I brought in anorganization to help me, and that was in when
we started out in 2015, and we're the board isstill running today.
So you built a where did the idea of the boardactually come from?
That was from your was that actually from thementor, or or was that idea before that?
(36:10):
Wasn't.
You know, years ago, one of one of ourmanufacturing partners in Dayton, Ohio, a
company called PDI Communication Systems, theywere just trying to make sure that their sales
channel, the company selling their productswere were strong, they were thinking about
building their businesses because there are alot of small businesses like mine that
(36:32):
entrepreneurs that, you know, that they dotheir thing and then they do it.
And then next thing you know, they wake up andthey're seven years old and they're going, what
am I doing?
I never thought about transitioning my businessor, you know, building structure and all those
kinds of things.
And so there's an organization in in NorthernOhio called Aileron, just up the road from from
(36:54):
PEI.
And they paid for me to go out to course calledthe course for presidents.
Essentially, it's it's thinking about, youknow, getting out of your business and thinking
about building your business.
And it gets you out to this really, reallybeautiful facility for several days, and they
bring in some some great, really, really smartpeople to help people that are leading their
(37:17):
businesses.
And it gave me some ideas.
And along the way, they talked about theconcept of an of an advisory board.
And so that kind of planted the seed.
I was thinking about that a bit.
Then I went back a little while later, I don'tknow six months or a year later and I went to
another course there called how to build aboard.
(37:40):
This organization Alerom was founded by a guynamed Clay Mattiel, was the founder of Eames
Pet Food.
And he had some really, really great advicearound and and some really great statistics
around companies that have boards versus thatdon't and the failure rate of businesses that
(38:00):
have boards that that don't.
And that that struck really, really hard, tome, and it was it was in the the early years of
the of the of the transition of the biz of theownership transition of the business.
And I thought, man, I gotta I gotta do this.
And so, I made a couple attempts at my on myown, and then I I found a a great organization
(38:26):
called Board Developer that helped me actuallydo it, that helped me go out and find awesome
candidates, manage the board, and do all thatkind of stuff, and it's been been a wonderful
ride.
Since you went through a course, and this isvery unique.
So building a board, what is it that someonethat's looking to even potentially build a
(38:50):
board or thinking about this, what should theybe thinking about when building a board?
How does one go about it?
Right?
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about those experiences inbuilding a board.
You know, what I'm gonna start out with one ofthe things that I've this is very, common that
(39:10):
I would I would highly I would highly suggestthat owners and leaders are careful about is
not bringing in somebody that's too close tothe business.
That's a friend or a manufacturer or somebodylike that.
(39:33):
You need some really, really good objectiveadvice.
So that's kind of a filter to run everythingthrough.
And then I would assess strengths of the theowner or the leadership team or whoever is is
going down this this path.
Where do where do your experiences lie?
(39:55):
What have you done in the past?
For me, I've never been a numbers person.
I I just not one of those things that camenaturally to me in undergrad and grad school.
I had to work really, really hard in accountingand finance and econ.
It just it was always always a grind.
And so I know I knew I needed somebody that hada numbers mentality.
(40:19):
I I I I wanted somebody that ideally came froman accounting background or a financial
leadership position, so I knew I needed that.
I also knew that kind of, you know, sort ofthinking about my business.
Okay.
Who are the who are the people that are outthere that are have something that I need that
(40:45):
I don't necessarily have in part of my team?
And in our world of of design, and integration,architecture's a big thing.
One of my one of my passions early in my eraand even in, from the earliest in high school,
I I I secretly wanted to be an architect.
(41:07):
In fact, I I applied to a couple schools fortheir architecture program, ASU and Clemson
being two of them, along with where I ended upgoing, which was Indiana.
And I and I, like, I knew that if I got intoIndiana, I was gonna go there anyway.
It's a it was kind of a family thing.
It was part of my DNA.
(41:27):
It was just it was easy.
But so I didn't go the architecture route, butI really, really I've always been intrigued by
architecture, and it's really, really criticalto our business.
And so I knew I needed I wanted an architect onthe on the board.
And early on too, although I'd done a whole lotof, work in the low voltage space as a
(41:48):
contractor, very little of my work had everbeen with, like, construction projects in in
process.
And so I knew that I needed some somebody tohelp advise me on the the the whole process of
building the built environment.
And so I wanted a I wanted a contractor on myboard.
(42:11):
And then, also too, early on, when I built theboard, our business was a 100% in health care.
And so I wanted somewhere from the health carespace.
And I looked at lots of different differentkinds of roles.
I ended up with a with a physician, a physicianwho was also in a leadership role with a large
healthcare organization locally.
(42:32):
So from from my standpoint, like, those werethings that were just, like, things about my
business that I knew that I bring anything tothe table in those areas.
And so therefore, I wanted somebody that wasgoing to have some level of subject matter
expertise to just help me through those things.
(42:55):
I had to bring in a early on, an operationsperson from an from an airline on too that was
wonderful because he had a really, really goodoperations mindset.
So as we were building the team in the earlyyears and and part of the building of the team
was also, like, we had some roles early on,some some people that had crept into the
(43:19):
business before we were really, reallydiscerning about how we were hiring people.
And so some of this was transition, like, youknow, getting some people off the team and
bringing some people in to to fill those seats.
And so that operational advice was really,really helpful early on.
So it was just the like, kind of an assessmentof, like, leadership strengths and weaknesses,
(43:44):
and then also kind of the things that we neededin in the business too and and some people that
could really advise us in those areas.
Were there any instances that you can think ofwhere going either tough situations or where
(44:05):
when you went to the board, they essentiallygave you an answer that was tough to hear.
But you, you know, after you had your pityparty, if you will, you you went with you went
with with that decision.
Gosh.
Oh my gosh.
(44:26):
And it, like, makes the hair on the back of myneck stand up.
Like, I I will never ever forget there's twothings.
I'll never forget my first meeting ever.
I walked in there, and I had spent I had spenttime with these people.
We had had meals together and all thatthroughout the process of kinda courting these
(44:49):
board members and things like that.
We they knew lots about the business and me andeverything and what what I was looking to do,
but I came in with my agenda and then I justgot like absolutely picked apart.
Absolutely picked apart.
Now granted, you know, this this is an advisoryboard and I and and the way my board is
(45:09):
structured, I don't pay my board members.
Some some do.
I just decided that's that's not how I'm gonnaoperate my board.
And and you know and they they can't fire mebut I I always knew that I would treat their
advice as if they could fire me.
And, you know, that's the kind of relationshipI wanted.
(45:31):
I wanted that.
And I made that very, very clear to them too.
Like, I want your most objective, hard,constructive criticism that you can possibly
give me.
And that meeting, went in with all my greatideas about things I wanted to do with the
business, and they essentially told me, that'sgreat.
(45:52):
We're gonna put that over here for two or threeyears down the road.
Here are all the other things you need to startworking on.
Oh.
I it was a it was a tough pill to swallow.
It was everything I asked for, but it was atough tough pill to swallow.
A lot of them structurally, financially, likethings we needed to do, like, there's a lot of
(46:15):
that.
But man, that was that was brutal.
You were probably thinking, what did I getmyself into?
This is
Oh, man.
It was it was gnarly.
It really, really was.
I still every once in a while, we'll we'llwe'll kinda revisit that because I still have
two two of my original board members, and we'lltalk about those early days.
(46:38):
Man, it was tough.
And I still like the the second part of that isfor the first couple years, I would I would
leave those meetings absolutely, like, totallyexpended, like, completely wasted, just
depleted.
I would I would literally go outside.
(46:59):
We had there's a few of them we had in a at arestaurant in Old Town Scottsdale, and I go out
and just sit on this bench and just, like, justunwind and just try to write down as many
things as I possibly could.
Mean, took a lot of notes in the meeting, butjust write down as many things I could about,
like, just things that were on my mind becauseI wanted them to I didn't want them to kinda,
(47:20):
like, dissipate from my brain and my, like,kinda unwinding of the day.
Oh, it was it was crazy.
I and I still I mean, I still after ourmeetings now, I still feel similarly, but those
early years, man, man, it was it was brutal.
(47:43):
It sounds like there were a lot of operationalrelated things that they were picking you up
apart about rather than whatever your whateveryour new ideas.
Obviously, there was the people side, theprocess side, they probably were picking apart.
Anything on the technology side as well thatthey were picking apart?
(48:04):
Or was that was was that where your ideas were?
Yeah.
Like, by technology, you mean, like, ininternal systems?
Internal systems or yeah.
Broadly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We talked about a lot of that because early on,we knew and and we actually went through we
(48:24):
went through a period where we yeah.
When I started the board, we were using bothQuickBooks, so our accounting, you know, hardly
call call it an ERP, and and Salesforce as ourCRM, and they were we had some, you know, some
(48:45):
middleware that linked the two so that, youknow, we could share data between them.
And for whatever reason, the way that interfaceworked, I don't remember like, I remember this
occasion vividly.
I I just knew that the person at the QuickBookscustomer support out of Tucson said to me the
(49:08):
way that the interface hits the database, itdoes something, and it and it does something to
your file that essentially makes it a really,really good candidate for corruption.
And in 2017, I think, our database gotcorrupted, and and our QuickBooks effectively
(49:28):
came to a grinding halt.
Oh, jeez.
That
was painful, and we were down for a few days.
We brought it back up.
We had to start a brand new data file, and thenwe were living out of two data files.
So, you know, up until this date, out of thisdata file and so on and so forth, and and they
(49:52):
said, okay.
Like, the way you can prevent this in thefuture is by doing this maintenance on a
regular basis.
So we did that maintenance for a few years.
A few.
That sounds
so painful.
Yeah.
I'll get that.
That sounds unbelievably painful.
(50:15):
Yeah.
We went through an accounting system crash.
And and so at the time, we were talking aboutand we knew that we were eventually gonna grow
out of out of QuickBooks.
We needed something, you know, because we'reeffectively you know, we're in design and
construction.
So we we needed something that we were gonna beable to to to tailor to our our needs.
And so we had a lot a lot a lot of conversationabout when that would be and how to do that and
(50:42):
how to how to budget the dollars for that.
And, unfortunately, we never gotten to it untilit was too late again.
Mhmm.
Which came a few years ago couple years ago.
But that's maybe for another story for anothertime.
Because we did have another database corruptionissue that forced us into a adoption of a new
(51:08):
accounting platform and that's when weswitched.
So maybe learning lesson for those that are outthere.
What are the for anyone that's wants to learnfrom this, what would what would be the advice
that you would give them for either how toprevent the problem or how to, quote unquote,
(51:29):
see the problem before it actually becomes thebecomes, like, a legitimate issue, like, a
business stopping issue.
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of like one of those businesscontinuity things assessments.
Like, what are the things that would disruptyour business, interrupt your continuity for,
you know, a day at a minute, you know, ideallya day.
(51:53):
But sometimes, you know, these things areseveral days.
You know?
And, you know, that goes into that goes intobackups and maintenance and those sorts of
things.
Like, do as much as you can and back that stuffup religiously because that's your lifeblood.
And that's gonna help you with an IT issue, andthat's gonna, you know, potentially help you
(52:18):
down the road if you have some sort ofcybersecurity.
Yeah.
So
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
We do we do those all the time.
So technology risk assessments.
So there's a few different types.
Right?
So cybersecurity is a risk assessment.
The same way that you would like if you hadsomeone that was doing your books, you would
still have a third party that would be auditingthose books.
Usually, it's a CPA that's auditing.
Let's say you're in internal accounting.
(52:40):
You know, cyber cyber risk assessments, right?
Internal external.
Yeah.
Those are those are also common.
And then the business continuity riskassessment, right?
IT, those are all all different pieces tohaving risk around your technology.
So that's, so doing risk assessments, and forsmall business owners, sometimes the concept of
(53:02):
risk management is not in their vocabulary.
I know.
That is something that larger companies that islike something that's talked about daily and
weekly Yeah.
Versus small business.
I mean, you you see the you see the the badside of it all the time probably because
Oh, yeah.
You go on, what do I do?
(53:23):
Yep.
Or the ignorance of it of not realizing thathow much risk they are putting on themselves.
And it's not an if it's a when type ofsituation.
You are now in the place of, you know, you'rehoping your way through, you're going to get to
whatever that next leap is, and you're notgonna get there.
Yeah, right.
(53:44):
We see it all the time, yeah.
Right.
So, and I'd say for most for most companies,those risk assessments is extraordinarily eye
opening because it's it's a total Pandora'sbox.
But I think the way to leverage riskassessments is this becomes your roadmap of the
actual problems you need to be solving, right?
(54:05):
Like, are your high level risks.
These needs to be budgeted for attack.
And these are, you know, lower risk.
Deal with those down the road or not deal withthem, right?
Defer them.
Yeah, yeah.
So, Justin, I think it's time for our lastquestion.
Else?
(54:25):
Yeah.
I think it's time for our last question.
So on that note Alright.
Take it away.
Alright.
Well, we like to ask everybody this question atthe end of our episodes.
So, Matt, if you go back twenty years, 02/2005,quite the year for you, what advice would you
give yourself in 2005 if you go back in time?
(54:48):
Oh, man.
Going back in time.
You know, if I were to you know, one of thethings that I think, you know, was really,
really important about our business that wasimportant about our business at the time.
(55:10):
Like, when we started out, when I started out,we were a national integration supporter for
the healthcare space.
And
almost all of our clients were nationalhealthcare clients.
We had a big rehab client.
We had a few regional acute care IDNs like, youknow, hospital chains, you know, kind of thing.
(55:37):
We had a large dialysis customer, and ourperspective was always nationally.
And and therefore but we were a business thatoperated out of Phoenix, Arizona.
We had some lot of clients locally here in inPhoenix.
But I didn't spend a lot of time in the localbusiness community building relationships and
(56:01):
getting to know the who's who.
I've I had a really, really, really, reallygood, strong social, personal network.
I I lived here.
I moved here in 1995, so I've been here for awhile.
And I had, yeah, a lot of really, really goodrelationships there, but I had never really
(56:23):
plugged myself into the local businesscommunity.
And quite honestly, didn't really start doingthat until we renamed and repositioned the
company in 2019.
And and I I regret that.
I regret not getting more of a head start onthat.
(56:44):
So if I were to talk to my twenty year agoself, my 30 year old self, I would I would
highly suggest getting really, really pluggedinto the local business community.
You know, effectively digging digging the wellbefore being thirsty.
(57:04):
You know?
Because I really look at you know, now our ourbusiness, although we have clients in all
across the country, much of it is really,really based locally here in Arizona.
And and I and I and I wish I had more of a headstart on that.
That's that's really great advice.
One, tactical.
(57:26):
Like, I think just tacticality, great advice.
But then also two, big it's very big picture.
It it is, you know, build or dig the wellbefore you're thirsty is a great, analogy
there.
Yeah.
You know, you know, those things, you know, Idon't I don't don't care whether they're your
clients are all you know, even if my clientswere all outside the state of Arizona, still
(57:50):
those connections are really, really, reallycritical.
You need people in your court.
You need people that you can just grab a cup ofcoffee or beer and and bounce ideas off to off
with.
You need you need to know who your effectivelywho your competitors are.
You know?
You need to know them Yeah.
Personally too.
You know?
(58:11):
These things are really, really critical to thesuccess of a of a small business.
And, yeah, got a late start.
I feel like I've made a lot of ground over thelast several years and continue to do so, but,
you know, live and learn.
Alright.
No.
That's, good advice.
This has been a ton of fun.
If somebody wanted to get ahold of you, what'sthe best way for them to do that?
(58:34):
Oh, man.
They could, they could hit me up on onLinkedIn.
I think I'm I'm, Matt Chitwood LinkedIn slashMatt Chitwood.
There are a few others out there, by the way.
One of which my wife went to high school with,which is kinda funny.
That is very funny.
Same name as as me.
(58:54):
And I met him, and he's in our industry, by theway.
Wow.
That's crazy.
He literally is in our industry.
He's worked for a number of differentmanufacturers.
I met him a few years ago at a at an industryevent.
One of the moral stories.
But, yeah, LinkedIn.
You can hit us at our website, pivium.com,pivium.com.
(59:19):
I can be reached at matt.chipwood@PIVIUM.com.
Two t's in Matt, one t in chipwood.
It is Chipwood With A C and not Shipwood withan s.
Mhmm.
Before.
That's funny.
Yeah.
Lots of ways you can touch with me.
Yeah.
I'd love to talk to
yes.
(59:39):
Build the community as you were Right.
Just saying.
Yeah.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell thepeople before we say goodbye?
No.
No.
I just think, it's been good good to get toknow both of you.
It's been a lot of been a lot of fun.
I feel like I'm heading into this, I don'twanna say golden years because I have no
intention of of getting out of this businessanytime soon, but I feel like I'm heading into
(01:00:01):
this period in our business where we're hittinga really good stride.
I feel really good about a lot of things thatwe're doing, and I love what you guys are doing
locally with the in the, you know, the AACspace.
Yep.
Really awesome.
There's there's companies that are that arelike mine.
I meet people all the time that small shops,some smaller than than mine, some that are
(01:00:27):
small that are bigger than mine.
And I think everybody needs the the continuousreinforcement of people that are gonna pour
into them and advise them, connect them withpeople, and, be a good sounding board for just
business in general.
Because I tell you what, man, you know, wedon't need to be doing this stuff alone.
Yeah.
It's not for the faint of heart.
(01:00:48):
For sure.
You guys get that.
No.
We are definitively, better together.
You, build great things by doing it with othersfor sure.
So Yeah.
This listeners, this has been a ton of fun.
Me and Will had a blast.
Matt shared a ton of amazing nuggets in in myopinion.
And until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
(01:01:08):
Ciao.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more please share thisepisode with a friend, colleague, or on social
media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(01:01:33):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com