The Art of Talent Acquisition in Construction with JP Jaramillo - Nox Group

JP Jaramillo discusses his extensive experience in talent acquisition and recruitment, beginning with an introduction to Building Scale and his role at Nox Group. The conversation covers leadership's influence on recruitment, evolving technology, and the sales aspect of recruiting. JP delves into compensation strategies, growth opportunities, and balancing internal equity. He highlights the costs of turnover, recruitment metrics, and onboarding challenges. The episode emphasizes setting realistic expectations for long-term commitment, simplifying recruitment, and identifying and retaining top candidates. JP shares insights on leveraging technology, the importance of personality profiling, and offers reflections on his 20-year career in the industry.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Couple that with all the technology, which wetalked about previously, the applicant tracking
system, all the tech, and now you just havepeople who show up and they're inspired to go
make an impact and improve people's situationsand give them the opportunity to be better and
provide for their family.
So we do that a lot, man.

(00:20):
I mean, as we talked about, we hired just overfourteen, fifteen hundred people last year.
So and that that's not gonna it it willcontinue to do that.
So it's cool.
It's it's been a fun ride.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?

(00:41):
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forret.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.

(01:04):
This is
building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AAC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
business are people, process, and technology.

(01:25):
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/health.
Today's guest is JP Jaramillo, the VP of talentacquisition at Knox Group.

(01:46):
JP is a Phoenix native who discovered hispassion for people at just the age of 13,
working in his family's Mexican restaurant inMaryvale community.
After high school, he jumped into b to b techsales, but he found his true calling in
construction recruiting in February.
And over the past nineteen years, JP hasclimbed from entry level recruiter to vice
president, helping build high performing teamsfor contractors doing 500,000,000 to

(02:10):
2,000,000,000 in annual revenue.
Today, JP brings that people first mindset toKnox Group, a powerhouse construction
enterprise operating in Arizona, New Mexico,Texas, and soon Nevada.
With a workforce of over 1,400 skilled craftprofessionals, Knox Group self performs across
electrical, heavy civil, prefab, and BDC,serving sectors like semiconductors, mission

(02:31):
critical, and water slash wastewater.
And when he's off the clock, JP, he's a family,faith, community guy, and a proud husband, dad,
basketball coach who still finds time to hitthe golf course when he can.
And with all that said, JP, welcome to theshow.
Man, thank you.
Glad to be here, man.
I'm super pumped.
Great intro, by the way.

(02:52):
Yeah.
I I like to take all the credit for the intro,but it's really you gave me a bunch of stuff or
your marketing team gave me a bunch of stuff,and then I, you know, just not not shameful
about it, utilize AI a little bit, and bingobingo, look at that.
We're sounding great.
But with that said, and with that great intro,tell us tell us the real story.
You tell us about how you got into the industryand tell us about Knox Group.

(03:14):
Yeah, man.
I mean, as my as you as you mentioned, I grewup as a native to Arizona.
My my family, my dad's family actually cameover from Mexico, started the Mexican food rest
Mexican food restaurant game here in Arizona.
So I grew up bussing tables, running thecashier booth, working my way up to server.

(03:36):
All through high school, that's all I did, man.
I made money and and got bad grades.
So I make the perfect talent acquisitionprofessional, I guess you could say.
That's the recipe to find them?
Maybe that's the secret sauce when you'relooking for other recruiters.
You're like, hey.
Were you in the industry, the survey industry,and did you get bad grades?
That that's Yeah.

(03:56):
Yeah.
No high GPAs here.
We leave that for the HR folks.
Well, yeah, man.
It was fun.
Went worked all through high school andgraduated, as you mentioned, got into b to b
sales.
I did try the blue collar work for about a yearpulling cable out in one of the local chip
manufacturers, and I just decided after a yearthat wasn't for me.

(04:17):
And I hit the phones and what?
Three or four years later, I found recruiting,got into recruiting and man, nineteen years and
the rest is history.
I've recruited across the country for IT tostart.
And then I got into construction, owned my ownbusiness for a few years until the market
crashed in 'eight and then, found my way overto Sunt, Sunt Construction.

(04:40):
And that's really where I'd say I built mycorporate career for about nine years, built a
lot of great relationships.
And that's how I got here with Greg Ayers andJustin Martin calling me back, almost three
years ago, asking if I wanted to come over hereand go build rocket ships and do some exciting
stuff.
So here we are, man.

(05:00):
I'm almost, coming upon my three yearanniversary, and we've completely, I mean,
completely revamped all things talent, whichhas been super cool.
I have to find things to do so you know I'mdoing something wrong.
I tell my boss all the time.
I I need some work because the team's kickingass and, you know, they're they're in a great

(05:21):
spot.
So I'm I'm obviously super proud.
Yeah.
I we actually when I was in Chicago last weekwith with Will, we talked a lot about, like,
the whole job of a leadership position is tryto, like, make it where you're not required
anymore.
Right?
Like, how do I work myself out of a job in thebest way possible?
Because if I can just make everything runsmooth, it looks like that, oh, that's a bad

(05:44):
idea.
But in in reality, that's that's leadership.
Right?
Yeah.
That's it, man.
I who there was a quote recently.
I don't share it much, but I think it was anElon quote or where he said, like, 90% of the
work is done by so and so.
I don't know.
It it basically was saying middle and seniorleadership don't do shit.
I don't agree with that fully, but, yeah, let'snot share that quote very a lot.

(06:07):
Yeah.
Let's not tell Justin about that growth.
That could be that could be bad.
Yeah.
So how did how did they pull you away and andand bring you over to Knocks three years ago?
What what what did they what did they sell youon?
Because they were they were recruiting you.
Right?
Like, how did they get get you over?
Yeah.
I think it was just the vision, man.
Much and what's funny is I reflect back in02/2012, Dan Hag was the new, CPO for Suns.

(06:34):
He had come from Mortenson after twenty years,and we had lunch.
And Dan had cast a similar vision.
We're doing 480,000,000 in revenue.
We wanna grow to 200,000,000,000.
We wanna get the ESOP to x evaluation orvaluation, and we want you to come and
spearhead the growth.

(06:55):
And so I did that at Sun.
I mean, we took that recruiting team from me toa college recruiting program that nets a
hundred interns to now I think they have 10recruiters with three managers across the
country.
And so, you know, I had kind of gotten a pointthere at SUN where I was I was happy.
I had built something great.

(07:16):
I had influence.
I was on senior management council, but there'sjust something about me.
I like to build and I think I just was donebuilding.
The team was in place.
They were kicking ass and I just I don't wantto say I was bored.
I just like to live on the edge And that's whatI do.
Right?
Even in my spare time, I'm a basketball coach.

(07:37):
I love and go I love going to taking 10 kidsand taking them from rec to competitive club
and the journey of of building thatrelationship, building their skills or
basketball IQ.
And it's no different on the talent acquisitionside.
And so when Justin and Greg said, here's whatwe wanna do.
We wanna go from a hundred and 80,000,000 to abillion.

(07:57):
We will get there, but obviously, we needpeople and we need a talent acquisition team
that can help with that growth.
And so, man, I I got excited.
And Justin's a man after my own heart.
He's a he's a visionary.
He's very eclectic.
He's he comes from nothing, very similar to me.
I mean, grew up on food stamps in inner cityMaryville and, you know, just the ability to

(08:23):
connect with the front lines all the way up tothe c suite, you know, there's power in that.
And he and I share that in common.
And, you know, and then Greg, of course, Greg'sone of the best BD guys in the world.
I mean, he's just a monster.
He has this ability to just build relationshipsand go get work.
And so I knew that wasn't gonna be an issue.
It was just gonna be trying to find all thepeople that we needed to accomplish that just

(08:47):
like at Sun.
Yeah.
They they hooked me and obviously the role andthe opportunity to be a vice president and, you
know, that I just couldn't pass it up, ofcourse.
So here I am.
We got through the war.
I call it the second civil war.
You know, I'd never come into an environmentwhere I had to take an existing team and, you

(09:11):
know, unfortunately, some people out, and therewas a lot of them.
And that was real tough for me.
I'd never been through that.
So good good opportunity for me to grow, andand it allowed the right people to come onto
the boat.
And so we did that and we've trained and we'vedeveloped and man, it's been really cool.
Couple that with all the technology, which wetalked about previously, the applicant tracking

(09:35):
system, all the tech, And now you just havepeople who show up and they're inspired to go
make an impact and improve people's situationsand give them the opportunity to be better and
provide for their families.
So we do that a lot, man.
I mean, as we talked about, we hired just overfourteen, fifteen hundred people last year.

(09:57):
So and that that's not gonna it it willcontinue to do that.
So it's cool.
It's, it's been a fun ride.
Okay.
So hold on.
I I just wanna pause there for a second.
You said 1,400 people last year.
How many people are, like, in the organization,the conglomerate of organizations?
That you manage?

(10:17):
We're sitting between 16 to 1,800.
So, you know, we talked we talked about one ofthe challenges with turnover.
Right?
And I actually pulled the numbers, from ourPower BI dashboard.
Was pretty interesting, which we know is anindustry problem.
But last year, we had 61% turnover, which wasmajority craft.

(10:37):
So about 715 craft left either voluntary,involuntary, and the project closed up, and we
didn't have a spot within the next week.
It could be a variety of reasons, of course.
And, the craft world alone we had hired lastyear, 855.
Now that's just hourly electrical worker andjourneymen, so that doesn't include your

(11:00):
foreman, your field superintendents, all yourprofessional staff, which makes up for the
other 500.
But, you know, it's it's it's a challenge whenyou're seeing 700 people leave and you're you
know, you have to fill a thousand or morecraft.
And that's the world we live in, unfortunately.

(11:21):
And obviously, we're all as an industry tryingto figure out how do we make that pain a little
less.
But, yeah, it's getting better.
Let's let's talk a little bit.
The Epica tracking system.
Right?
ATS.
So not everyone knows what an ATS is.
Can you explain what and why you would get anATS and maybe even at a size?

(11:44):
Right?
When does it make sense?
What are the indicators that you would maybeneed need an ATS?
Yeah.
I mean, applicant tracking system is thelifeblood of where all of your candidates, you
know, it's the beginning of your workflow, yourrecruiting workflow.
So for example, we have about 30,000 candidatesin our applicant tracking system that came
about through referrals, through ourrecruitment advertising plan, which includes

(12:09):
indeed sponsored ads, LinkedIn, you name it.
Right?
So the goal of an applicant tracking system isto get candidates into your system to then sift
through, sort, tag, and then go after the onesthat you wanna go after.
And obviously, it compounds because as you getapplicants, then you get their references.

(12:30):
There's a bunch of different ways to sourcecandidates.
But from the craft perspective, I would say theIndeeds of the world definitely produced or
produced the largest amount of activecandidates.
And when you do that across the country, itjust state after state after state.
You end up with a lot of money invested, butyou end up with a database of people where now

(12:54):
we can start to email market to, we can do textcampaigns to.
And in our business, we have to ramp incrediblyfast.
If we're gonna go build a mission criticalfacility and we need 400 craft within ninety
days, if you don't have 30,000 candidates toreach out to, what are you gonna do?

(13:14):
You're you're you're in trouble, right?
Which which is why we see a lot of companies inour industry leverage temp agencies or
supplement their staffing, which isn't a badstrategy, but it's also going to cost you 50 to
60% markup and the quality of talent comparedto what my team screens for and what they've
been coached to do.

(13:35):
There's no comparison.
And I have that conversation with owners ofagencies all the time.
They just shake my hand and go, JP, you'reright.
You know, call us when if you ever need us.
So, yeah, your applicant tracking system, I Istill find a lot of companies that don't have
one, and I I don't know how they do it.
I mean, spreadsheets and their HR, I don'tknow.

(13:57):
Feels it feels a lot like a a sales teamwithout a CRM.
Yeah.
It's just like, you're gonna throw it in Excel?
Like, that's the that's the game plan that thatseems insane.
And I I understand that, like, oh, well, CRMcost x amount of dollars.
The efficiency, that is increased is insane.
Like, you you I couldn't imagine runningthrough a marketing list or prospect list in

(14:21):
just an Excel doc.
Like, that to me at this stage would be like,we're we are never gonna grow the way we want
to because we are so far behindtechnologically.
Yeah.
And a lot of companies use the big, like,Taleos and the Workdays.
And what's funny is those are great ERPsystems, right, like for HR and for for

(14:42):
internal employee management, but they're awfulfor actual true talent acquisition teams.
And I've seen that firsthand even at Sun.
We went from ISUM to Taleo, and Taleo was socumbersome.
You'd never really used it to its true capacitybecause the work flows within it were horrible.
You have to as a you gotta remember talentacquisition teams are typically they're they're

(15:07):
high drive, wanna move quick with the littlestamount of detail.
They operate in the gray.
So how do we keep the workflow consistent forquality, but also give them the ability to not
have to spend a shit ton of time, you know,putting a candidate through the process?
You know, that's that's the key difference witha true TA leader is like, okay.

(15:31):
How do I understand my team?
And then give them the tools to help them bemore efficient, not slow them down, which the
other side is, right, which I partner with HR,they wanna do checks and balances and slow and
steady and consistent equality.
So you have to find the balance of how do wework together efficiently or else it turns into

(15:52):
a nightmare because then you're just cussingeach other out and they hate you and you hate
them.
So
Yeah.
HR loves to be cussed out too, I hear.
That's my understanding.
They enjoy the the conflict.
Speaking of HR, when when does it make sense?
Because essentially, I and I know people thatare in TA that say, no.
I'm not in HR.
Like, there's not it's not the case at all.

(16:13):
However, when you are smaller, TA is under HRto whatever degree until a certain point.
When does that break happen?
Like, when does it like, no, we just need itsown department.
The goals are so drastically different and thiscan't just sit underneath the HR umbrella.
I think it depends on the expected outcome,right?
If you have 10 hires a year you need to make,an HR can supplement with a couple agency

(16:39):
partners and all they're doing is coordinatinginterviews and, you know, things of that sort,
then you can get away with it.
In fact, I just had lunch with a local hundredmillion dollar GC that I actually used to work
with the owner back in o six, and they've neverbuilt out a TA team.
So their HR director, who I met with, she'swearing five hats.

(17:02):
Oh, boy.
At a hundred million?
Oh, man.
It doesn't work.
And she knows that and she's asking me for myadvice.
Right?
Because I know the CEO and I'm like, you'rescrewed, like, unfortunately.
You know?
Because then it becomes a business decisionbecause you have to invest in the overhead to

(17:24):
go find, to build a TA team and all the systemsand tools If you want your outcome to be, I
gotta go find 1,500 craft a year.
You're gonna pay for it one way or the other,whether you go supplement with temp agencies
and vendors, or you find a leader who can builda team internally and then, you know, that
knows the outcomes.

(17:44):
Like, I know the outcomes of my team annually.
I know a good craft recruiter will net mebetween five fifty and six hundred and fifty
hires a year.
I know it.
And we break that down down to the weeklyactivity.
It's a proven recipe.
So, like, if I were to go to another companyand they go, well, JP, what should I do?
I'd go, well, what's your anticipated hires?

(18:06):
And then let's break it down based on, right,recruiter activity and what's expected of them.
But, you know, you see that a lot where a lotof TA leaders don't understand that.
They they just think we come in, we manage, weprovide a good experience, we hire some people,
and, yeah, you might get away with that.
But not when you wanna go from 200,000,000 to abillion and scale nationally.

(18:30):
Shit doesn't work.
It just I've seen it.
And then they just try to steal my people, andmy people just tell me.
And I'm like, well, it's because they can'tbuild a team.
Like, and and I get it.
Right?
If you can't build one, you go and you paymoney to get to get the people that know how to
do what you need to wanna do.
But yeah.
I mean, I I run into that issue a lot whereit's like, when do I expand?

(18:51):
When do I hire TA?
And it's like, well, it depends on your growthgoals.
And then you gotta go find the leader that'sgonna fit for your culture and that actually
knows how to build a true TA team, that iswired for what we do.
Like my my team, if you talk to any of them,you'd be like, they're wired for TA.

(19:12):
Like, they love it.
They live it.
They breathe it.
They're yeah.
Let me let me pause there for a second.
Because you said something before, and and Ithink it's it's actually important to
understand because you said the process, therecruiting process.
Mhmm.
Okay?
Talk about what is the recruiting process.
And then once we're done with that, you know,then talk about the recruiters, which are

(19:39):
really, in my opinion, salespeople for people.
Recruiting is pretty easy.
It's it's your sourcing.
You have to go source or find the candidates.
Now I'm speaking eye level.
You have to do a rec intake.
You have to go get the requirements.
We gotta go through all that.
We gotta get the job posted, all that stuff.
But really, as a recruiter, once I have allthat, I have to be able to source.

(20:00):
So what am I going to do to source candidates?
There's reactive ways and there's proactiveways to source candidates.
We want to take advantage of all those, postinga job, headhunting, networking.
We were golfing with a senior estimator at thecompetition yesterday, right?
I took them golfing.
We're building relationships.
And so there's all these things we're doing tosource candidates and keep them warm, help them

(20:24):
understand who we are, learn who they are.
After that, it's screening, right?
We're screening candidates.
We need to be able to effectively technicallyscreen for someone's ability, hopefully at the
highest level possible.
That's not always the case, but that's expectedof my team and they have the resources to do
it.

(20:45):
They know how to ask a journeyman electricianall things electrical to the point where if
they come in and hit our boards and they test,what my recruiter screened for and how they
test, those numbers align.
And we've been seeing that the last ninetydays.
They're ninety, ninety five percent on pointbecause their ability to ask the right

(21:05):
questions and also understand industry standardworks, what electricians do day to day on our
job sites.
So screening is huge because your ability toscreen when you submit a candidate to a hiring
manager tells you everything you need to know.
Because if your hiring manager is saying, no,I'm not interested, you're not sourcing

(21:28):
effectively and you're not screeningeffectively.
So now I know as a leader where my issue is.
If every candidate getting submitted is gettinginterviewed, we're doing the sourcing and the
screening right.
Now from the screening part, after that's doneand we submit it to the hiring manager, the
hiring manager, now we have to provide a goodinterview experience and talent should lead the

(21:52):
way.
Meaning, I'm attending all my candidates'interviews with operations, with HR, and I'm
handholding that candidate and that experiencethe entire way to make sure it's a quality one
and make sure that the people interviewing arehitting on what they should be hitting on,
which is fine tuning technical ability, whichis culture, which is a hierarchy of values.

(22:18):
Do their values align with ours?
And then obviously offer negotiations andclosing the deal.
So it's not super complicated, but within eachof those buckets, there's a lot to to coach and
develop and learn.
Right?
That's like to say, like, it's not complicated,certainly isn't easy to do.
Like, let I mean, like, it's this isn't likebut this this is fine.

(22:40):
I can just pull anybody to be a recruiter at ahigh level.
And even if they were a recruiter, one onething that we've seen, and maybe you can speak
to this, like, know, we we go outside to say,hey.
Like, we need help finding candidates.
Right?
And it's like, okay.
Cool.
But depending on what they specialize in, like,they're more general for us, we find that's
really hard for them to understand to get a alevel two or three engineer.

(23:03):
Like, it's just very difficult because theskill set that that engineer has, they just
don't have the right questions.
And, like, even when we provide, like, ideasand questions for them, it just what we find
is, like, the the quality is dirtier.
It's just a dirtier set of of quality comparedto when we find somebody that's like, oh, we
specialize in IT and cybersecurity.

(23:24):
Like, that's where we specialize.
We get such a higher level and value ofcandidate that comes in the door for us.
Yes.
And that's the key.
First, it's the ability to understand yourindustry and technically screen somebody.
Now the biggest challenge we have in talent,it's like you said, it's a sales game.

(23:46):
You have to equip your talent acquisition teamwith something to sell.
I mean, you do.
Like, we're only as powerful as what we cansell, and then following through with the
commitments we make in what we're selling.
And so then you get into comp and benefits,which we talk about all the time.
So the the senior estimator I had golf withyesterday, he he's with a company that has an

(24:08):
ESOP that contributes 23% every year.
He has a healthy base salary, great bonusstructure, he's been there eight years, he's
got a team under him, what am I selling, how amI going to improve his situation or offer any
sort of transformation, which is what mostpeople want.
It's it's it's the benefits of comp.

(24:32):
Right?
Benefits.
And then, of course, growth.
And a lot of people will take pay cuts to cometo an opportune where where they can grow.
More times than not, though, if they're anindividual contributor, it's not always the
case.
But why can't we offer them both?
And that's the hardest part as a growingcompany is figuring out the balance of internal
equity versus the paychecks we're gonna have togo cut.

(24:56):
It's just like a sports franchise.
At some point, the company that figures thatout the best, both short and long term, they
win the game.
And SUNCT is a prime example of that.
I mean, they went from 500,000,000 to over4,000,000,000 in twelve years, and it's because
they figured out a way to offer people shortand long term incentive.

(25:20):
And part of that's with the ESOP and the growthof the ESOP.
And, you know, there's other factors of it.
But so if you're a privately owned company thatoffers base plus 10% bonus and a four zero one
k match that is 25¢ on the dollar, well, you'recompeting with people that may offer more than

(25:41):
that.
So how do you compete with that?
That's is is that and and, again, like, you'reyou're handcuffed to what you're allowed.
You can't just start, hey.
Let me give you whatever.
Right?
Let me give you insane let me just promise youthe moon.
And then, like, when you get in, that's noteven cult you're nowhere.
You're not even out of out of the stratosphere.
Right?

(26:01):
So how do you how do you work with that?
But, like, I feel like there's gotta be more ofthe the story.
Like, know, pitching the the idea and the storyand the vision and and maybe working with, you
know, Justin Martin, maybe that brings someweight to this.
And and I don't know.
Maybe a craftsperson, what's the value of,like, the vision long term?
Because a lot of them are this company, thatcompany moving around a bunch.

(26:22):
How how do you how you paint that picture tosay, hey.
Like, this is the greatest place in all of theValley or in all the Southwest to work?
Well, I mean, you just you really, growthcreates opportunity.
We know that.
But when everybody's growing, everybody hasopportunity.
You know?
You're not we're not the only one growing, soeverybody is chasing the same work and has the

(26:44):
same problems and cannot find high qualitystaff.
So you have to have something to differentiateyou.
And I don't think enough time is spent on thecomp and benefit strategy within organizations.
I just I don't think enough time is spent thereand really figuring out, like, okay.
So if we offer all of our project engineerstrucks, what's the pro?

(27:07):
What's the con?
What's the impact to the business?
Can we get our customers to pay for it?
Yada yada yada.
But I don't think most companies sit and go,man, how do we increase our how do we, like,
navigate this strategy of compensating ourpeople and also going and getting new people
without pissing everybody else off?

(27:30):
And maybe they do.
I don't know.
I'm not a part of those meetings, but I just Idon't think it's the case.
I think it's all an exercise.
And my experience has been, if you wanna like,I we I get calls from Greg.
Right?
He's like, hey.
We're going into Reno.
You know?
I need to know, like, what what's the pay?
What's the comp?
I go, Greg, the comp is gonna be how much thefirst senior project manager we call months.

(27:56):
That's the comp.
Like, there's no, like, oh, well, we're gonnapay from $1.20 to $1.50.
Well, when I go to NorCal and there's a guymaking 200 and he can go run our work, what
he's out.
What are you gonna do?
Oh, well, we'll pay it.
Okay.
So, like, you I mean, it's sometimes it's justlike the market is dictated by the people in

(28:18):
the market and what they're currently making,but more importantly, what it's going to take
for them to leave their current situation andcome to us.
Like, I see that all the time.
You submit a candidate.
They're at one fifty, and, oh, he's at onefifty.
Yeah.
He's at one fifty, but he's been there sixyears, and he's not leaving for one fifty.

(28:40):
Oh.
He'll leave for more.
Yeah.
It's you're you got a good situation at thatdollar amount to get you to go.
You have to have a bigger carrot.
Right?
Like, there's just no you know, especially ifyou're going to them.
You're that reaches to them in comparison tothem coming to you.
Right?
Because it's like, oh, well, you're if you'recoming to me, there's certainly some intention
of you're not absolutely happy.

(29:01):
Right?
For whatever reason.
It could be tons of things, but, like, you'renot absolutely happy because if you were, you
wouldn't be calling me.
Right.
A %.
But that's the hardest part about what we do,especially if your TA team's good because we
can get in front of good talent and sell themon the growth.

(29:21):
The hardest part is during the process ofinterviewing with people and then getting to
the offer negotiation stage and having to goand do this whole circus show, you know, over
fifteen, twenty thousand dollars.
And maybe I'm just stupid, and I don't I Ithink that I think that's pennies, and maybe

(29:41):
it's not.
But I've seen it hundreds and hundreds andhundreds, if not thousands of times over my
career.
And if you don't get that right, you're gonnakeep struggling to go and find project
managers, superintendents, like it's gonna be adogfight.
So.
And then you have the churn.
Right?
Because then so even if you do get them in, thechurn rate will probably be higher because you

(30:06):
haven't, like, oversatisfied them.
Right?
Like, because that's essentially the game.
And then what are you doing?
Now you're back recruiting again.
And now you're like so and then training andall the all everything all the costs that come
with it so that when you chalk up $10, you'relike, we would have saved money if you would
have just gave them $10 more.
Would have saved them money.
I mean and I think that's where this richrecruiting strategy and tactics as an

(30:29):
enterprise, right, at the executive level.
I think if we don't spend enough time on thatand if you really wanna win and be a national
multibillion dollar corporation that makes alot of money, you're not gonna do it without
great people, and great people cost money.
And guess what?
The old Dave Ramsey quote, Thoroughbreds don'trun with donkeys.

(30:54):
You wanna hire Thoroughbreds.
That's great.
You you don't see donkeys running the KentuckyDerby.
So, you know, it's like, how is this asurprise?
Why are you surprised?
I mean, I just so that's that's the stuff westruggle with, and it it can frustrate a good
recruiter because, you know, they go and theywine and dine a killer candidate, and then it's

(31:18):
like, oh, well, we can't they're, you know,they're making way more money than our current
PM.
Well, yeah, your current PM's working sixteenhours a day.
Like, you think they're that's gonna be that'sgonna last?
No.
And it's an industry.
It's an industry problem.
I see it across the industry.
And I mean, there's just such a shortage of ofpeople that it's not gonna go away anytime

(31:41):
soon.
So you have to be able to compensate people fortheir time.
That's my opinion.
Their time and their energy is worth something.
And we do it for the craft.
If they work seventy hours, they make a lot ofmoney.
But our PMs are on salary.
They don't.
Right?

(32:02):
It's it's lots of opportunity is what I'mgetting at, and it fascinates me because I'm a
data junkie and a guru, and I love to see,like, you know, just how can we get better at
selling and giving our team things to sell.
Because if you have things to sell, you don'tneed a recruiting department.
You may to move them through the process, butif you're so good, people are coming to you

(32:24):
because they're like, sign me up, please.
Like, then you don't need 10 recruiters.
Maybe you need two.
You know, since since data and technology letlet let's go into this.
I'm I'm a little bit of a math geek as well.
So tell us a little bit about a little bit ofthe math.
Right?
In terms of, like, what metrics are you usingto understand, let's say, how to get to filling

(32:49):
a job, job requirements, and how manyrecruiters do you need.
Right?
Kind of the back thinking to end up at anumber.
Right?
Because there's a lot of math that kindahappens on the back end in order to be able to
fulfill, hey, I've got a job for 300, fourhundred people or what or whatever it is.
Right?
Especially in ninety days.

(33:10):
Let's just take your example.
I think you said 400 people in ninety days, Ithink is what you said.
Yeah.
I mean, so yeah.
So if you can get so on the craft level, weknow or I know a good recruiter can do 15 to 20
offers a week.
If they're if they're hitting 30 to 35 phonescreens a week and we have the right

(33:30):
recruitment advertising plan, and we have thecandidates in place and the referrals coming
in, let's say that's their target, right?
Then we have to figure out if that's if we'regonna go on that ramp, what else do we have?
So if our projection for the year is 14 to1,600 hires, then I gotta work backwards and I

(33:52):
gotta go from a production perspective if ateam of four, right, can do 40 to 70 offers a
week, right, times 52.
You know what we can we know what we can forthe most part, you're gonna have weeks where
you get six offers.
You're gonna have weeks, but if we average itout, that's where we come up with, okay, this

(34:15):
is the team we need to be able to make thatmany offers.
You're gonna have people reject offers.
You're gonna have people no call, no show.
There's so many other variables.
Now, you go to the professional side, my ruleof thumb is a professional recruiter should
never be managing more than 10 reps at a time.

(34:35):
Okay?
10 openings, 10 reps across the country.
Now I've seen people like, I've got a buddy ata $10,000,000 general contractor, and they're
managing 30 wrecks apiece.
It's just not sustainable.
You're not gonna find quality people if you'refocusing on so what we do, what I've always
done is I have I split it up by the businesses.

(34:58):
I have one person overseeing Knox Innovationsin all of our support groups, and she's much
more wired, almost a little bit like an HRperson.
She's a little bit more steady.
She has some drive, but those roles, typically,we get referrals or we get applicants coming to
us.
So she's in the right place for her personalityand she delivers results.

(35:22):
Now, my other two senior level recruiters whoare just go getters, one supports RMCI, one
supports Corbyn's, and as there's, you know, asthings pick up or slow down on either, they
kind of work together to fulfill the needs ofthose, which usually sits between five to 10
roles.
And when I say roles, usually core operations,your FEP, EPM, and superintendent are your core

(35:47):
roles.
So they're only really working four differentfour to five different positions, but there
might be two to five openings for eachposition.
Does that make sense?
Yep.
Yep.
So it's got 10 different position titles.
So if I can keep them in the core ops, and thenyou're always gonna have preconstruction, you

(36:08):
might have a anomaly like a VP or scheduling.
But if I can keep them to no more than 10actual position, like titled roles, hopefully
we set them around five, they can consistentlyproduce around 50 to a hundred roles a year.
Fill fill them.

(36:28):
Now here's the tricky part again.
It depends on your company's ability to giveyou something to sell.
At Sunnt, as a senior recruiter, I was fillinga 20 professional roles by myself across the
country or
Wow.
Jay, I was an animal.
I was working sometimes till seven or 08:00 atnight because I loved what I did, and I had

(36:50):
something to sell.
And I'm not saying we don't here.
However, we're also a subcontractor, so theamount of people we can recruit from
drastically decreases because we're a sub.
How many billion dollar electricalsubcontractors are there?
Five?
So there's not I mean, there's probably a listof a hundred across the country electrical

(37:13):
contract, construction subs that we can recruitfrom.
So not all wrecks, not all environments arecreated equal, and that's where you really
gotta figure out that formula so that you cango and and figure out who you need on the team
and what they need to produce.
Because if my senior guys find 40 good VPEPMsupers a year and I got two of them and they're

(37:36):
doing 80 to a hundred together, that's prettygood because that's hard.
It's a lot harder than going to work forMcCarthy or Son.
Like, it just is.
I mean, they're selling ESOP.
They're selling, you know, national work,multiple offices.
Like, it's it's a more it's more convenient.
It just is.

(37:56):
And that's no knock on them because I used tosell it.
So, you know, then you you figure a hundredmillion dollar GC that's doing tenant
improvement work.
Margins are four to 5%.
They probably don't have a lot of net income.
They can't invest in the overhead necessary togo and help take them to 500,000,000.
What are you gonna do?

(38:18):
You can't afford a TA team.
Interesting.
You have your HR manager wearing five hats.
What about what about the process once,somebody does accept an offer and they come on
board?
Right?
Because, like, obviously, you gotta find greatpeople.
You gotta identify them, find them, build thepicture, sell them on the idea, get them to

(38:40):
sign the contract, then they come in, andthey're onboarded in some way or another.
Like, does TA have anything to do with that, oris it like, we've handed this off, and we're
gonna hope for the best because, you know, atthe end of the day, if the churn happens
especially earlier, it's like, my god, this isthe worst.
That's gotta be the worst feeling ever.
This guy just started thirty days ago.
Come on.
Yeah.

(39:01):
Yeah.
I mean, no.
We don't we stay in contact with them becausewe built the relationship, but that's where it
gets passed off to ops and HR, right, andlearning development.
But that's why it's so important during theinterview process.
And I will sit in interviews, and it'simportant for you to challenge your
interviewers and operations teams to tell thecandidate what the reality is and don't

(39:24):
bullshit them.
I mean, because, you know, like, if you'regonna tell my candidate that we grow and
develop our PMs, okay, well, give me examplesof where you've grown and developed PMs because
the worst thing you can do is talk a big talkand then they show up and it's a shit show.
Mhmm.
Or not even a shit show.
Maybe you don't provide the the resources thatyou said you were going to.

(39:48):
It just nobody wins.
And so that's a big, big lift for me and myteam this year is how do we help coordinate the
interview experience so that the truth comesout and that there's sincere, authentic
conversation, and they're leveraging wherethey've done what they're saying they're going

(40:08):
to do, whether it's growth and development,whether it's opportunity to become a VP,
whatever the case may be.
And and I think that's where we struggle isyou're so busy selling that you're not being
you're not connecting with individuals asindividuals and humans and forgetting and
you're forgetting that they're a they're ahuman being.

(40:31):
You know?
They only have so much energy.
They have families.
They have kids to go pick up from school.
They've got baseball games and soccer games andbirthday parties, and maybe they wanna go to
church on Sundays.
So if you're they're gonna be working a sevenday schedule, just be open and honest with them
so they can make the best decision forthemselves.
Yeah.
No.
That that makes sense.

(40:52):
Right?
The the transition.
Right?
Because it's like, you see this in any, youknow, sales role where it's like, hey.
Like, we're gonna we're gonna try to sell youthe the dream, the moon, but that transition of
expectations to whatever the service is andyour guys if it's electrical or if it's the GC
work that y'all do, like, that has to becorrect.

(41:13):
They have to be right on both sides.
Right?
Like like, it has to be the same story becauseif one side is off, good or bad on either side,
it's like, oh, man.
Like, you're just doing a disservice to anybodyyou're about.
It is.
And and, you know, candidates, the biggest liftfor me and what I've seen is empowering your
candidates to be on the offense during theinterview.

(41:35):
And what I mean by that is, like, how do wehelp our candidates?
We're not giving them the answers, but empowerthem to ask the quality questions that align
with their values and what they want to know.
Because a lot of times you go into an interviewand boom, operations and HR, they're on the
offense.
They're like boom, boom, boom, boom.
And when do we ever give our candidates to askquest you know, the opportunity to ask, well,

(42:00):
okay.
So I answered your questions.
What are you doing to improve, you know, yourproject manager's work schedules?
Like, what are they working right now?
Are they working fourteen to sixteen hours aday?
Are they working eight to ten?
Like, and what are you doing to make an impactin the industry so that your people have more
time and energy?
Like, nobody asked that.

(42:21):
Why?
It's the most one of the most importantquestions you could ask.
Well, what support are you going to give mefrom a performance review and management's
perspective?
You're asking me to do one on ones with 10project engineers and do quarterly one on ones
and quarterly performance reviews.
Well, what training and development do you havefor me as a new PM to understand your culture

(42:44):
and how what your expectations are for me?
Nobody says that.
They just show up, and then they get 10notifications.
You have ten one on ones due.
And it's not just us.
It's the industry.
Right?
So I just feel like the biggest passion of mineis the interview experience to where we're
connecting genuinely and we're just being realwith each other so that there's no surprises.

(43:09):
It's like here's who we are, and if you joinus, here's our commitment to you, But you know
what?
It might not be the first ninety days, rosy,but I promise you this.
Right?
So if we could just have more of those genuineconversations during the interview experience
and and allow our candidates to be on theoffense as well, I think it would just produce

(43:29):
such a better experience.
And to your point, if they accept the offer, abetter first ninety day experience, six months,
and beyond.
Right?
Yeah.
Totally.
So this we could take this in so many differentways.
I wanna start oh boy.
I think I wanna start with the actualcandidates.
Right?
So you've identified, you know, there there'ssome potential candidates.

(43:51):
Like, do you go through like a weed out processfirst?
Would you consider that there's like a weed outprocess?
And then after that, do you test tactical?
Or do you test culture first?
Like, what's is there an order is there otherthings?
Yeah.
On the professional side, it's not reallyweeding out because we're we're reaching out to
thousands of humans and hoping that one saysthey're open to a casual conversation.

(44:15):
And so you could talk to five project managersacross the country currently sitting at ABC
Electrical, and the hard part is you'rebuilding influence, rapport, selling them on us
while trying to figure out if technicallythey're an apples to apples fit for what we're
looking for in a PM.

(44:35):
So it's this balancing act.
Once we identify, okay, they're doing$40,000,000 projects, Their craft workforce is
similar.
They're doing the similar processes that we dofrom monthly forecasting to WIPS, yada yada
yada.
Great.
Then we get them in front of our hiringmanagers and it moves forward.

(44:56):
I think you can identify culture, but culturereally in the beginning is just, are you nice?
Are you helpful?
Are you treating me like a human?
And like, you know, it's not complicated.
Now once you get in front of HR and theexecutive, sure, they wanna go through your
ability to lead, to develop.

(45:16):
Right?
Like, what do you value?
Do you value any of that?
And if you don't and you just wanna go buildwork and you're really good at it, well, then
let's just be open and honest.
And if it's not an expectation of the role,then we'll move forward.
But, you know, the whole culture stuff to me isjust like, where have you won?
What do you like to do?

(45:37):
Right?
What are you good at?
What motivates you?
What doesn't motivate you?
And what do you value?
Because what you're gonna do, what you value.
That's that's just how the world works.
Right?
I mean, so it's not complicated.
I think we make it more complicated.
You know, there's this whole culture interview.
Are they a nice person?

(45:58):
Are they good at coaching, developing?
Are they responsible?
Are they reliable?
Do people like them?
Like, shit, man.
Like, that's not the hard part.
The hardest part is, are they going to be ableto manage the expectations we're gonna put on
them, and are they gonna be motivated anddriven by them?
Right?

(46:18):
And then can we compensate them and reward themfor what the gifts and talents they're bringing
to the table both short and long term?
And fuck, man.
It's not, like, outside of that.
It's like we make it so complicated.
I love your simplification of this, whichespecially in the construction space is like,
we don't have people.
We can't find people.
Like, it's very you know, it's it's screamingfrom the rooftops about how horrible it is and

(46:41):
how difficult it is.
And you're you're telling us, like, it's notthat difficult.
Like, it you know, we we're trying toovercomplicate this shit.
That's because, Ryan, it it all rises well, allthings being equal, again, it comes down to the
head coach.
And then we have to have leaders in any thecompany with the best leaders is gonna win
because the leaders that know how to motivate,to put basically give people the opportunity to

(47:08):
take action and potentially make, you know,potentially fail and learn from those mistakes,
the leaders that are able to motivate andconnect with their people and understand their
values and what they're good at and delegate towhere they can go shine, they're gonna win.
Their teams are gonna win, and I'm a live I'mliving proof of that.
Right?

(47:28):
And I'm not putting myself on a pedestal.
That's why I'm in TA because I get the rightwhat motivates and drives people within our
space, and then we give them an environment totake action, learn from their mistakes, right,
mitigate the big ones, and then life brings youthe experience you need.

(47:48):
It's no different on a construction site.
Project managers build work.
They manage budgets.
So they gotta be pretty sharp with that.
Make sure we don't lose our ass.
Hopefully, we're making money.
And then lead and develop people, man, and showup and actually enjoy what you're doing.
I think the hardest part is just finding peoplethat are apples to apples comparison.
We can't go find someone that's building$5,000,000 electrical scopes.

(48:13):
They're not gonna survive when we give them an$80,000,000 or a contract.
Right?
It's just
a huge huge difference.
The companies with the best leaders are goingto win.
Love that.
I don't know if that was your your brainthinking of that in the moment, but that was
poetry to my ears.
I mean, it's just and again, it goes back to mycoaching career, right?

(48:34):
I just got this basketball team, third andfourth graders, this season, and I've coached
at the YMCA for fifteen years.
I won Arizona Coach of the Year out of all theYMCA coaches a few years ago.
Congratulations, that's awesome.
Yeah.
It was awesome, man.
And it's like and and it's true.
Like, when people see JP Hotamil on the coachesroster, they just go, here we go again.

(48:57):
Because I already did it.
I took my kids through high school, won tons ofchampionships, went to Suns Arena because of
the my ability to coach, motivate, lead,develop, and connect genuinely with these kids.
The amount of times we go out for chickenfingers or I've taken kids with not with that
don't have dads under my wing, that I've cut acheck because their mom couldn't pay the SRP

(49:23):
bill.
Like, that's being a leader.
Like, that's being a leader.
It's not just filling out a one on one formevery quarter going, oh, they did RFIs great.
Like, that's part of it.
You know?
Like, my kids need to know how to run a threetwo zone.
They need to know how to run a box offense.
They need to know how to do this and that, andthat shit comes.

(49:46):
But if your leaders don't know how to connectwith their people genuinely and have the
ability, the capacity, and the energy to do it,then what are you doing as an executive staff
to make it so?
Because if you don't make it so, you're nevergoing to win that game.
You're not.
You're not.
So That's great.

(50:06):
What are some litmus tests for identifyinggreat candidates?
I'm sure got some.
Well, I mean, technically, it's pretty selfexplanatory.
Right?
The ones that are building the big work and thework that all of us want.
Right?
Big mission critical facilities, semiconductorfacilities, big industrial work, and the ones
that have a proven track record for doing a lotof things we just discussed.
But, really, project management is just aboutmaking money and mitigating risk, making sure

(50:32):
your team's motivated and driven.
They're doing it safely with quality, and theyactually have a passion for what they're doing.
Like, it's not super complicated.
You can get into the nuts and bolts of whatdoes a project manager do and this and that and
this and that, but, you know, it's the softskills like, can they collaborate with others?
You know?
Can they show up on a job site and instead ofcompeting with others, can they complete

(50:57):
others?
That's a big John C.
Maxwell thing that I learned a long time ago.
How do I show up and complete my completeothers, not compete with them?
You know?
And it's those it's those little intangiblesthat make people successful.
We can teach them how to go build a $10,000,000job or an $80,000,000 job.
It's the same shit.

(51:18):
It's just more quantities.
Instead of 250 busways, it's 10 busways.
So, like, it's all scalable from a technicalperspective.
Right?
But that's why we have to focus on the otherthings.
And as an executive team, look at our peopleand go, again, how do I give them the energy
and capacity or time back by surrounding themwith good talent while also investing and

(51:43):
pouring into them?
And that's the secret sauce.
And it takes money.
It takes buy in.
It takes energy.
But you also have to have an executive team whowalks the walk and talks the talk.
And if you don't, you're just gonna end up witha bunch of mini mes who are very similar.
And if you're okay with that and you're makingmoney as a company, I guess, then okay, if

(52:06):
that's your culture.
I think you just have to figure out, like, whatdo you want your culture and and and who you
are?
What do you wanna be about?
You know, that's Justin's whole thing.
Be about it.
Well, what are we being about?
And then let's communicate that message, andlet's make sure our leadership is being about
it.
And any growing company, I'm sure, is goingthrough those growth pains like we are where

(52:28):
you're trying to figure that out.
You've got four different companies, fourdifferent brands, bunch of different leaders,
and, of course, we all want to win and make animpact, but, you know, is it trickling down to
the front lines, to our PMs, to our PXs so thatthey can then go and pour into the next
generation?

(52:49):
And easier said than done when you're growingfrom 80,000,000 to 500 to a billion, you're
just flying so fast, you end up being reactive.
But I think that's why sometimes it's okay toslow down and make sure that we're focusing on
those areas in addition to just getting workand building it, which yeah.

(53:09):
Easier said than done, but those are myobservations anyways after nineteen years in
the industry.
And, I mean, it's it's not easy, but it can bedone.
I'm living proof of that.
I've done it time and time again, and,definitely the fruit's worth bearing.
I appreciate the insight.
I wanna switch switch gears.

(53:31):
We talked a bit about people, a lot aboutpeople.
Yep.
We took talked a little bit about process.
Technology.
Right?
We talked a little we talked about the ATS.
What other technologies do you use that helpsupport what you're doing?
It's not so much the name brand, so much as thethe stuff that you're doing, right, that's sort
of supporting all those efforts.
Can you talk a little bit about that?

(53:53):
Yeah.
So to keep it super simple, going back togiving my my recruiters time back, the biggest
the biggest thing we've implemented was likemany companies, the AI interview taking notes.
And we use BrightHire for that.
And what's cool about BrightHire for us is itintegrates with Greenhouse.
So if I go have a phone screen with thecandidate, whether it's Teams or a phone call,

(54:18):
that gets captured and put in the candidate'sprofile in Greenhouse.
So when I go to that candidate five years fromnow and I click on the candidate, I can watch
that conversation with my recruiter and thatcandidate and also all the notes are taken for
it.
Even better, when we get to the offer stage andI send that candidate's offer to Greg Ayers for

(54:40):
approval, he can go in if he has any questionsand look at the notes and watch the interview
if he wants.
So it helps create transparency for, you know,who we're hiring and why we're hiring them.
And then it also gives the recruiter time backbecause they're not sitting there having to
take notes, and they can truly connect and gothrough their screening process.

(55:01):
That's been a big game changer, especially forthe craft who are doing 30 to 35 screens a
week.
It's a lot.
Everything's captured.
It's in the ATS, and I mean, it's all rightthere.
You can see how people talk on teams.
You can see how they present.
You can see how acquisitive they are, so on andso forth.

(55:21):
You know, the other thing is basic stuff likeCalendly, right?
We, a lot of times, will go through a rec andthey'll send out a request and that's been
super helpful because with Craft theirschedules are crazy.
So they just send out a text message to thosecandidates saying, hey, thank you for applying.
I can't wait to connect with you.
Can you choose a time on my calendar for us toconnect?

(55:43):
So simple.
I know a lot of people use it, but that's beenanother game changer instead of trying to get
ahold of the candidate, hey, or texting thecandidate.
Right?
And I'd say 70% of my recruiter screens arefilled up through that way.
And I most of my recruiters are booked a monthout with phone screens.
Oh, okay.

(56:03):
That's
Like, no joke.
I could look at Candice, for example.
I know right now her entire month is is bookedMonday through Friday with phone screens.
It's nuts.
Wow.
That's like executive level, time managementright there.
Yeah.
So that's been super helpful.
Grayscale's great.
We use Grayscale, which integrates withGreenhouse for texting.

(56:25):
Right?
If we're gonna do a big ramp, we'll send out awe we tag all of our licensed journeymen in
Greenhouse so we can run a report of licensedjourneymen, and we can send a text through
Grayscale that says, hey.
We're gonna be ramping in San Antonio.
We've got this mission critical facility.
It's running two years.
We're paying up to 39 an hour plus per diem.

(56:46):
Would you be interested in a conversation?
Here's my Calendly link.
Really hope to talk to you.
Boom.
They could blast that to a thousand craft inand around Texas and start to fill up their
calendar, or they'll respond and all theresponses go in the greenhouse, which is cool.
So you can see the correspondents.
You can track metrics and who responded, whatthe response rate was.

(57:08):
That's been that's been super helpful.
Again, it's just how do we get the old schoolway is this.
Right?
How do we get more reach and touch andpersonalize it as much as we can?
I'm still a big fan of the phone, and I'm stilla fan of leaving voicemails.
But the reality is is, like, if you canleverage the tech, leverage it, it gets your

(57:29):
brand out there more and more and makes iteasier to to schedule conversations.
So I'd say those are the three biggest thatwe've implemented in the last two years that
have been a game changer for us.
K.
One other piece, because we talked about it.
How important is sort of personality tests,personality profiling, culture fit testing.

(57:54):
What's your opinion on those?
I think it's a great tool.
I think too many times we use it as a decisionmaker and, like, for the predictive index,
which we use, they tell you don't.
Hey.
Don't use this as the answer.
This is just a helpful tool to use.
Well, I see it all the time.

(58:15):
Right?
Like, I'll I'll use our foreman, for example.
So our foreman will oversee a crew of 10electricians.
And we have certain individuals here where iftheir a is not way over to the right and it's
to the left, they will not talk to that person.
Real quick.
Explain because not everyone knows whatpredictive index is.

(58:35):
I do, but what does a mean?
So predictive index basically measures whatmotivates and drives you, your workplace
preferences.
So if I put you in this environment, how willyou respond?
Will you be motivated by that, or will you notbe motivated by it?
So if you put me, JP, I'm low detail.

(58:56):
I'm over here on the left quadrant.
If you put me as a paralegal, I'm gonna hate mylife.
I might be able to do it, but you're never I'mnever gonna be your best employee.
I think all paralegals hate their life in in mypersonal experience.
But yeah.
No.
To your point, absolutely.
No details.
That's not great for legal.
So high a is just high drive.
Right?

(59:16):
So you wanna be in charge.
You wanna take control.
If I put you into an environment where it'sgoing a million miles an hour, you're gonna be
okay because you're gonna be like, alright.
I got this.
Let's go.
Whereas low a might be you're morecollaborative.
You want someone to work with.
They say, hey.
Here's what we're gonna do, or I need you totell me what to do, which more times than not,

(59:39):
it's true.
I've seen it in my own career.
It's pretty it's pretty accurate.
However, if someone is working for a competitorand they've been there five years and they have
low a, why wouldn't you talk to them?
I have a proven track record, but yet the toolhas told me everything I need to know.
No one has told me everything.

(01:00:00):
Nope.
You're not gonna make it.
I know because the last 10 people I fired hadlow a.
I'm just like, dude.
So we use it.
We recommend using it to just to, again, helphelp create more quality questions around the
concern.
Our job is to alleviate concerns.
If there's a low a, well, then we just talk tothem about their experience and when they've

(01:00:23):
had to go into scenarios or project orsituations and take control and take charge and
how they approached it and what the outcomewas, what they learned from it.
And then, like, if they have the experience andwe move on.
But, yeah, I would say it's pretty it's prettyaccurate with what motivates and drives you and
I've seen it.
Right?
Like one of the recruiters I mentioned, she'sshe's not a typical recruiter profile.

(01:00:47):
However, with the right reps supporting theright hiring managers with very similar
temperaments that aren't in a big hurry, thataren't hard charging a construction
personalities, she's been successful.
So it just goes to show, like, it just dependson now if I put her on operations with some of

(01:01:08):
my my, you know, hard charging, she would justhate her life.
But we don't do that, and we have the abilityto do that.
You know?
It it does give some good insights, and I thinkit should be something that's used even for
development, you know, or promotions or evenwith your own boss.

(01:01:28):
Like, took two years for my boss to understandme, almost three.
And she she said that herself.
She's like, JP, I I did it.
You were so different than me because she's thetypical high a, super steady Eddie, high
detail, let's sleep on it.
And I'm like, you know?
Yeah.
Like like, when I first meet you, I know rightaway whether we're gonna be best friends or I

(01:01:53):
never wanna talk to you again.
Like, that's my personality.
And I'm the same way.
What do you wanna know So that we just get thisshit out of the way and on.
Whereas that personality is more like, woah, weneed six months of interaction before I can
figure out if I like you.
And nothing wrong with that.
Right?
But it's good when you're gonna have peopleworking together, especially reporting to you

(01:02:15):
to go, okay.
I know I can't do this for JP.
Like, he can't be the guy managing our ATS.
No.
We need to find someone to do that.
But if you want to join JP to go speak in frontof 10,000 people and connect with them and
pitch our enterprise and organization and maybenot even like have to study or prepare, that's
our dude.

(01:02:36):
Like, right?
So just knowing your people and what motivatesand inspires them and what tasks to delegate
them or not, that's where the test comes insuper, super handy.
That that reminds me, Will.
One of the first interviews we did was a leadernamed Scott Maloney.
He's a president or leader of a architecturefirm in Ohio, I believe.

(01:02:57):
Don't don't, hold me to that.
Absolutely.
But, he he said even on his episode, he says,yeah, it only takes about sixty percent of the
data for me to make a decision.
Like, I just have to be 60% of the way there,and then I make a decision.
I don't have like, I don't need all thedetails.
Like, that's not how even, like, big thingswhere you'd be like, oh my god.
That's such a huge it's like, nah.
If I'm 60% of the way there, we're good.

(01:03:18):
Let's go.
Let's move.
And that's a little bit of that vibe Yeah.
Which I love.
This has been a ton of fun.
I I've had a blast.
You you're you're a wealth of knowledge, JP.
Like, un unbelievably.
I'm super happy that our listeners will be ableto hear that.
So one of the questions we love to askeverybody that comes on the show is if you

(01:03:38):
could go back twenty years, so that's 02/2005,you know, starting to get that twenty year
anniversary in the recruiting space, what wouldyou tell yourself?
What advice would you give a young JP?
Man, just I'd say just to remind myself that,it's about the journey.

(01:03:59):
Right?
Enjoy the day to day journey of fulfilling yourpurpose on this earth and being grateful that I
have I had a career and I have a career whereI'm able to do that.
Like, that's what I would tell myself becauseso many times I was so focused on the title or
the destination or, man, when I make 6 figuresor, man, when I do this.

(01:04:24):
And it's like, I don't worry about that stuff,granted I have the title and all that, but I
tell my team, just focus on the journey andlearning and serving and giving and challenging
yourself to be a better version of yourself sothat you can freely give to others because the
more you impact the lives of others, you win.

(01:04:48):
You win, man.
Because all that money and the title and theLamborghini and all that other stuff, it means
nothing if you've if you if you haven't helpedothers.
It doesn't mean anything.
Right?
It's those it's those late night texts, youknow, I get from kids I've coached or past, you
know, colleagues or peers or, you know, thatare like, man, JP, like, just got promoted to

(01:05:11):
manager, or I get a high school kids.
It's like, coach, we won our firstchampionship.
And, hey, my mom says hi.
You know, that's what it's about, man.
So that's what I tell young JP.
That's great advice.
I love every part of that being purpose driven,making sure you're you're trying to get 1%
better every day.
Those are all I'm excited for us to talk moreabout this while you, drive me around in your

(01:05:34):
Lamborghini, so that'll be cool.
I'm gonna throw all your social in the shownotes and all that kind of stuff.
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
Man, just connect with me on LinkedIn, and Icheck that quite often.
I'll shoot you an info or I'll shoot you a DMand share my mobile.
I'm a pretty accessible guy.
So, yeah, that's probably the best route.

(01:05:57):
Cool.
Cool.
Cool.
And then is there anything else you'd to tellthe people before we say our goodbyes?
I think, well, you know what?
I just saw this the other day, and I I wouldjust encourage you know, the biggest thing I've
been telling myself is no matter what thesituation, where you're at in your career is,
you know, it's, if the why is powerful enough,the how is easy.

(01:06:18):
And if the why is powerful enough, the how iseasy.
And I think you guys have seen from thisconversation, I tend to maybe make it seem a
little bit too easy.
And I guess from and and it's not.
It's just that, man, if the why is powerfulenough, man, we'll make it all work.
The the dream will come true, and that's Ithink that's the biggest message I've been
sharing with myself personally every singleday.

(01:06:41):
You're you're full of good you're full of goodnuggets.
It's it's wild.
I got I got all these notes written down here.
It's ridiculous.
This has been a blast.
Listeners, I hope you had just as good of atime as me and Will did, and and JP looks like
he's he's smiling so that he had at leastsomewhat of a fun time with us today.
And until next time.

(01:07:02):
Adios.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to building scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.

(01:07:28):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.