March 4, 2025 • 54 mins
Otis Odell joins the conversation to discuss his career and transition to HED, highlighting the merging of roles in business and architecture. He emphasizes the importance of core values and team performance, strategic planning, and organizational restructuring in AEC businesses. Otis explores adapting to virtual work, fostering a remote work culture, and maintaining connectivity. He provides market insights, including the launch of a Denver office and expanding project scopes. The discussion covers evolving business development strategies, sector-focused development, and resource sharing. Otis reflects on the future and offers advice, concluding with closing remarks and contact information.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I feel prepared for it, and it's because youhave a foundation which is based in trust,
honesty, transparency, and authenticity.
And those values guided me in my own practice,and they guide me today.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
(00:23):
company scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(00:43):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:06):
business are people, process and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/health.
Today's guest is Otis O'Dell.
(01:27):
Otis is a national leader in multifamilyhousing development with over thirty years of
experience shaping communities across thecountry.
As a business leader at HED, he drives nationalstrategy portfolio development, overseeing
projects from luxury high rises to affordablehousing.
His expertise goes beyond construction.
He navigates complex development markets,pioneers innovative designs, and is a strong
(01:51):
advocate for modular, sustainable, andaffordable housing.
Otis serves as a board member on the Council onOpen Building and is a frequent speaker at real
estate and development events, includingBizNow.
His projects have been featured in Love ThatDesign and The Architects newspaper,
reinforcing his reputation as both an expertand a visionary in the field.
(02:11):
HED is one of the top 200 design firms in TheUS, delivering integrated architecture and
engineering solutions across housing,healthcare, education, and much, much more.
With all that said, Otis, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
I'm glad to be here today.
Yeah.
We're excited.
It was fun meeting you and learning not onlyyour story at HED, but also running your own
(02:34):
firm prior to that.
So tell us a little bit about your own story,how you got into architecture, and then how you
started your firm and then HED as well.
Alright.
Well, you know, that may take the wholepodcast, so we'll jump in and see where it
goes.
Here we go.
Let's not start at six years old.
Let's go a little bit further down the line.
Well, I will say that in tenth grade, I knew itwas gonna be architecture.
(02:55):
So I never looked back and I I was, reallydetermined to to get there and got licensed in
my early twenties, actually, mid twenties, Iguess.
So I was working for a well established largefirm in Denver on a partner track, and I said,
no.
I gotta give this a try.
So I quit a secure job and went to my basementand started Odell Architects, and that was
(03:20):
04/24/1995.
I remember that day well.
I did have a sixteen year run, and, at mylargest, I was about 17 people.
After sixteen years, it was between, after02/2008, '2 thousand '10 when things just went
(03:43):
to heck with multifamily, which is where mostof my focus has always been and was at the
time.
I was down to seven or eight people, and I soldthat firm to, one of my senior project
managers.
She rebranded and took over.
She's still in business with seven people,maybe four, five, six, seven people.
(04:05):
I moved off to California.
That's where I connected with HED.
And I quickly became, an associate principaland then a principal.
And then as HED made a move from more of alocation based or a market based firm to a
sector based firm, I assumed the role ofleading the housing and mixed use practice
(04:30):
across the country for h.
We have multiple locations, nine offices, about450 architects and engineers.
Okay.
So one thing that comes to mind, prior to HED,so you're at your firm 95 starting up here.
Obviously, people are coming on board overthose, next sixteen years.
(04:52):
When did you start realizing that you weredoing less architecture?
Like, you know, like, at a certain point, youhit, oh, I have to just be the business
component of this, not necessarily the designcomponent.
Not that you completely give it all up, but,when did you start realizing, like, these
skills of architecture are I'm using those alot less than I was when I was just designing
(05:12):
stuff by myself.
Well, that's a great question.
It didn't take long, actually, you know, thatyou had to address the business side of
everything.
I did have a business plan when I started.
And when I started, it was just me.
Within a year, I had office space andemployees.
And as soon as you get employees, you thinkdifferently because you're feeding other
(05:38):
families and other, you know, paying othermortgages essentially.
So within a really relatively short amount oftime, certainly less than five years, three to
five years, there was a realization that I hadto stop every month for a couple of days and
make sure invoices got out.
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I had to sell business.
I had to be out and about and buildrelationships so that business would continue
to come in.
Of course, we had to do very good work and bevery knowledgeable.
So watching out for all of that.
And you're right.
(06:19):
I still had a hand in the architecture side ofit and worked to support my teams, worked to
support the project managers, got involved withall the internal team meetings, and helped
guide the projects and found the balance
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between working on the business side of thingsand working on specific projects.
So, you've got people, right?
And as the business grows, there's a pointwhere those skills even have to grow.
You just have to start being a manager, as atransition.
So talk about what translates from when youwere a business owner to
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a lot, a lot translates because my officialtitle today at H E D is national business
leader for the housing and mixed use sector.
So I am paying attention to projectperformance, the financial performance of the
work, just like I had to do and learned to doin my own company.
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And you'd learn to do it in your own companymaybe out of fear because you hear everybody's,
you know, talking in your ear.
Otis, did you know that ninety percent of allbusinesses fail in the first five years?
And you're like, I that won't be me.
And luckily, I I did make it for sixteen years.
So much of what I had to pay attention to as abusiness owner is very similar at a different
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scale to what I have to pay attention to today.
So I am watching project performance.
And of course, it's not all me.
I've got some really great team members who Isupervise.
One of them is an operations leader.
And then we have other sector leaders that arearound the country who are all focused on the
housing and mixed use center sector.
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So I don't wanna take all the credit.
I do have to do a lot of strategy aroundbusiness development.
And instead of focusing on a single market, I'mfocusing on the country.
I love the national platform, and I will saythat the work I did in building business and
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strategizing and building relationships in myown firm is applicable to what I'm doing today.
It's at a different level.
Of course, it's a different time and we connectdifferently.
And when you're national, you are connecting inwhatever way you can, including virtually.
I will say that I'm a believer in face to facecommunication and face to face contact.
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Here's an example.
I have a very strong client, good clientrelationship, and part of our business strategy
this year was to reach out to existing clientsor past clients where we had done successful
work.
Now I did that in my own business as well.
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So we executed on that strategy last week.
I went to Georgia, and one of our clients gaveme a half a day with their entire development
team.
This is a very big, national client.
And I knew what I wanted to get out of thatmeeting, and I left there with exactly what I
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wanted to get out of it, which is additionalopportunities.
And the question they asked me is, how many canyou handle per year?
That's exactly what you wanna hear at a meetinglike that.
So, you know, back to the question that youasked, so much of what I experienced and really
had to work with in my own business is veryrelevant to my role as business leader.
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And I'm talking about marketing, businessdevelopment, project oversight.
I do still serve as principal in charge onspecific projects, which keeps me in the
architecture world, which I love.
That was something that I, of course, broughtfrom my previous experience.
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I could not separate myself from projectsbecause when you're a small company at 16
people, you are the business.
You are you are the company.
And clients, as much as you say to them, here'sthe team.
Here's the project manager.
Here's the project architect.
They wanna talk to you.
(10:53):
They wanna talk to me.
Right?
So that's not always the case in today's worldwhere we have, you know, dozens of clients
actually and multiple opportunities.
Not everybody has to talk to me or feels likethey have to talk to me.
However, what's similar again is when there's aproblem, then they want to talk to you.
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And so and that's, you know, under the title ofsort of project management support is what I've
always called it, where whether it's my ownbusiness so many years ago or in today's world,
if there's a challenge and it could be, youknow, in today's world, it could be another
principal in the firm.
It could be another sector leader who is justnot comfortable in tough situations with a
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client, and I'm brought in.
And I don't mind it.
I feel prepared for it, and it's because youhave a foundation which is based in trust,
honesty, transparency, and authenticity.
And those values guided me in my own practice,and they guide me today.
(12:03):
How important are those values as you'relooking at others on your team?
Right?
So, you know, we certainly believe core valuesare are crucially important to finding the
right people.
Right?
Like, you you need to have the right people.
And then, obviously, if they can do the rightthings, then they're in the right seat.
But how how does that what does that look like?
How how does the team get built, and how muchdoes core values come into play?
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Core values are really critical, and they'rereally important as you recruit.
People wanna be a part of something reallygood.
So and I will say that adding people to ourteam, recruiting, interviewing, it can be very
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challenging to get the feel for somebody in aone hour interview.
And you really do want to find ways to get ademonstration that there's honesty, there's
trust, there's sincerity, and authenticity.
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I think it's really important.
And we want to learn about people because oneof our core values at HED is be you with us.
We want you to be who you are and be a part ofour team contribute.
We'll contribute back.
And it's the synergy that you want.
There's nothing better.
And this has been something I believe for myentire career.
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If you can align someone with the work theywanna do and the work they really are
passionate about, then it's a win win.
They're more likely to do a really solid jobfor you because they're doing what they wanna
do.
So I think that notion of being you with us isis really important.
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We also stress performance.
We do want high performing people.
We like to collaborate.
We like complexity in the work because we arecritical thinkers.
So we start to talk about that as we build theteam.
And we also recognize how important it is tomaintain the team we have.
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And retention of team members becomes reallyimportant.
And that's again where the core values come toplay because as long as a person feels like
they're contributing and they have a verytransparent working relationship, it's again
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based in honesty and high quality output, highperformance output, man, you wanna hang on to
those people.
How do you
measure performance?
Well, we're pretty connected with our teamsregularly.
Where I'm principal in charge, every projectpretty much has a weekly internal team meeting,
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and assignments are given or discussed.
It is a two way street always.
Where are you on this task?
How have you progressed?
And we keep track of our performance along theway.
So everybody's putting their time in.
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Everybody's getting closer to the finish line.
We measure it regularly.
We do work plans, and then we monitor thosework plans, and we put together tools and
systems that allow us to measure ourperformance.
We look at our multipliers at least twice permonth.
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We have our goals set, and there's rigor to usreally looking at overall project performance
and then really drilling down to make sure thatindividual performance is following through.
So just being supportive along the way, it'snot where we're out there to punish somebody if
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they're not performing or if we see a weakness.
We're empathetic.
We're reaching out and saying, is everythingokay?
Did you have too much work this week?
You didn't get some of this stuff done.
Is something else going on that we need to talkabout or talk through?
How can we support you?
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It's that kind of interaction that buildsstrong teams and lets you really have a view
into the inner workings of a team.
Strong teams build strong projects.
That's just how it is.
And we really put a lot of emphasis into, thestrength of our team.
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So we've been able to build the team over thelast, I would say, four or five years.
It has gotten better and better and better.
Again, people want to be part of somethinggreat.
So, when we talk about the quality of the work,the quality of the work, the quality of the
work, it's so important for our team members tohear that because they wanna do great things.
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They don't, you know, they don't want to be apart of something that's half baked.
They wanna be a part of something that'sawesome.
No.
That that's, you know, we think about peopleall the time.
Obviously, one of the pillars of scale as wesay, people process technology, and how people
are such a difference maker.
And especially as you said, the last fouryears, you just keep incrementally getting
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better and better with your people.
You're inherently gonna produce better stuff,right, or better projects.
One thing you had said is, you know, you have,you know, your your roadmap or your plan for
the year or, you know, your strategy thatyou're going for.
How does that work, you know, your one practicewithin a larger organization?
So, like, how does that work structure work of,like, hey.
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Like, the company wants to go here, x, whereverthat is.
Like, then do you build it off that?
Or do you come together and say, like, we thinkwe can produce this much this year and then
throw it in the pile for the big big companyside?
So what what does that look like in strategyand planning for your practice?
So it's a little bit of both.
The firm always works against a, and Ishouldn't say against, with a strategic plan.
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Mhmm.
A new strategic plan was rolled out last year.
It drives pretty much all that we're doing.
And then we, as a sector, do our own businessplanning at the end of every year.
So we have a sector based business plan thatreally ties back to the strategic plan and the
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strategic plan goals.
We take the business plan that we've developed.
Of course, it's reviewed at the corporatelevel, and I'm I'm I'm right next to the CEO,
the co CEOs of the company.
So direct report there.
So I'm very much connected with them, and wehave biweekly meetings to just check-in and see
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how things are going.
And then we have biweekly meetings with theleaders of the sector.
So the sector leaders from across the countryand the business and development leaders all
meet every other week, and the business plan isessentially our agenda.
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How are we doing against what we said we weregonna do?
How can we get better?
What's in the way?
What roadblocks do, we need to remove so thatwe can have a really strong chance of meeting
the goals that we've set.
And again, those are tied back to the strategicplan that guides the movement of the company
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forward.
So, we talked about this a little bit, in thepre interview, which is where you're at didn't
start that long ago.
And you also said something which I found veryinteresting, which was that they had made a
transition from sort of being geography basedto being sector based.
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Very interesting transition.
Why, why do that?
That came out of some consulting as we wereputting our strategic plan together.
The company was putting its strategic plantogether.
I think at the beginning of developing thecurrent strategic plan, it's only been a little
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over two years where we were focused on ourlocations, and that was sort of the unit of the
structure that we worked within.
We stayed kind of local or certainly regionalto that office location, focused on the work at
that location, etcetera.
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And then what you find is that people inDetroit versus people in Los Angeles versus
people in Dallas versus people in SanFrancisco, they aren't necessarily doing things
the same way.
So when you're a company and 450 I mean, wecompete with companies that are 1,200, three
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thousand, and 5,000.
When you get that big, you need consistency inhow you come across and the processes that you
use.
So what makes the most sense I guess I wouldadd our goal is really to be a national company
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and to connect with and work with nationalclients.
So if we're working with client a who's inCalifornia and we learn that that same client's
doing business in Denver or in Chicago, wewanna understand that and be able to respond to
that.
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So what we do now in a sector based structureand as we've done a little bit of a brand
refresh just in the last few months, we nowhave taken all of our locations off of the
letterhead.
So we used to be focused still on when we do aproposal and it was being done sort of out of
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the Los Angeles office, we'd pull the LosAngeles letterhead.
It would have all the, places that we areoffice, and then it would be highlighting the
office location.
We took that off of the letterhead and nowunderneath the the brand is all the services
that we offer instead.
Right?
So what we do now, and I think it really makesso much sense and works really well.
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We put together the best team, and that couldbe a person from Sacramento and a person from
Detroit and a person from Boston and a personfrom somewhere else.
And we align the strength of that team with theassignment.
And it doesn't have to be all team members fromone location, and it it strengthens our
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offering.
It strengthens the services because we are, ina way, customizing the team and aligning it
with the specific task where maybe it's arenovation and we've got these people who do
renovations and we put that best team together.
Maybe it's a project that has, you know, aninternal parking structure and housing wrapped
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around it.
We can pick the team that's got that experienceand put that together.
Of course you want to have boots on the groundsomewhere near the project location, so you can
service it when it gets under construction.
So we take that into account as well.
It just works really well and it reinforcesthis idea that we have systems, we have
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processes and we all are in the same boat andwe use them the same.
So that now I got somebody in Detroit workingwith somebody in Dallas, and they're like,
yeah, this is how we do it.
That makes all kinds of sense.
And by the way, we're always open.
If we hear somebody saying, hey, we thinkthere's a better way.
Of course, we wanna listen to that.
So so that's really why we did it.
(24:35):
And I will say that you asked or you'vementioned that it hadn't been that long and
it's true.
So we all went through the COVID thingtogether.
We all pivoted to a virtual environment reallyquickly.
And we were set up.
We have really strong technology people, whichis a blessing.
And as we were given the demand to stay home,we were able to connect and continue our
(25:03):
meetings and continue our projects in a veryshort amount of time.
Within a week or two, we were just rocking andexcuse me, rocking and rolling.
So as we emerge from the COVID era, it reallyprepared us for this kind of structure where we
can connect with people very easily no matterwhere they are.
(25:26):
And as I mentioned before, I still like to goand see.
I'm leaving tomorrow to go to Los Angeles whereI was in that office for so many years, and I'm
reconnecting and connecting with clients thereface to face.
And so we were able to do that very quicklyand, it's worked.
And for the most part, all of our team hasreally embraced embraced the structure.
(25:49):
You mentioned, how face to face interactionimportant for relationships.
When you have more of a sector and notnecessarily location team, right, how do you
make sure that you're keeping that, you know,that feeling of face to face if somebody's in
Detroit, in Boston, in LA, in Denver, andsomewhere else where it's like, you are working
together, you are collaborating, and,obviously, you work virtually through COVID as
(26:12):
you mentioned.
But how do you really, really instill thatrelationship in the team?
I do think it's important to travel, and I do.
As the sector leader, I go to our otheroffices.
I connect peep with people one on one, makesure they're aware when we have a special event
(26:35):
like a business plan or some other document.
Many times, I will travel around and present itin person Mhmm.
And take questions and get everybody on boardwith what the document is saying and try to
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keep that culture as best I can.
And then we do have something in our sector,and most of the sectors have something like
this, but we call ourselves Housers.
And we have a monthly Housers forum where, youknow, anything goes pretty much.
Any kind of topic, it can be a project thatsomebody's working on.
(27:18):
It can be somebody else's project that we sawthat we really like, and we wanna talk about
it.
It can be I'm experiencing this in theconstruction phase of this project, and I wanna
share it with you so you can watch out for itnext time when you get there.
So that's still a virtual experience, but it'san important one that helps maintain culture
(27:41):
and and connectivity.
And you're doing this remotely.
Right?
That so you're connecting you're connectingremotely.
You're not okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Monthly, we have a Housers Forum, and it's ait's a virtual connection.
We're we're connecting remotely at that point.
So we we mix face to face interaction withvirtual interaction.
(28:02):
As I mentioned, I'm going to Los Angelestomorrow.
I will be connecting with team members that Ihaven't seen in a while.
In addition to connecting with clients, I'll berun ragged because people will wanna, you know,
go have coffee, and I I wanna do that.
I want to be able to connect individually withteam members.
And, of course, you have to realize, you know,we have houses in a lot of locations.
(28:25):
We're probably focused more with our housingsector in Los Angeles and Chicago.
So going to those locations frequently willhelp maintain continuity and connectedness and
cultural vibe that I think is important.
It's not to say we don't have houses in otherother locations.
(28:46):
We do.
And we work hard to try and make sure thatwe're connected, certainly, virtually, but also
face to face whenever we when
Next time you're in Chicago, you'll have to go,face to face with Will as he is in Chicago.
I will do that, Will.
I think I told you my daughter is in Chicagotoo, and one of our CEOs is in Chicago.
One of our CEOs is in Los Angeles.
(29:08):
So I, I do enjoy going to Chicago.
And by the way, Chicago is a very activemarket.
Mhmm.
Oh, yeah.
There's always development going here.
Yeah.
And, you know, as tough as housing has been inthe last couple of years, there is, significant
activity, in the Chicago and Detroit marketsand the Dallas market.
Those are two areas that we're really focusedon Detroit and well, three, I would say we call
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it the three Ds in our, in our businessplanning and that's Denver, Detroit and Dallas.
See big opportunities there as we try to comeout of what's been a challenging couple of
years for housing sales.
For sure.
So how you're in Denver now, but you weren'tbefore because there wasn't a Denver office.
(29:53):
So how did that happen?
How did you did you just say, hey.
I'm gonna twist some arms and I'm gonna getback to Denver because that's where I wanna be,
or how how did this work?
There's a little bit of that going on.
I was in LA, and I really there's a lot ofgreat things about Los Angeles, and I really
enjoyed working there and building a team thereand met great people.
(30:14):
And so we went through COVID and after COVID oreven, you know, toward the tail end of COVID.
But during COVID, many of our team members weremoving and going to satellite locations and
connecting remotely and all of that.
And circumstances, my wife and I decided it wastime for us to go back to Denver.
(30:36):
So we, got the blessing of I got the blessingof, of my partners, the partners in the firm.
And there was an underlying interest in Denver.
Given that we have, you know, a big presence inCalifornia, we have a strong presence in
Chicago, Detroit.
There was a gap in the middle of the country,and there was a lot of interest in Denver.
(30:57):
So it was four years ago actually that I movedback tail end of COVID, and I reconnected with
some people.
And there was, a firm that two of my closecolleagues had started about twenty five years
ago.
So when I left the security of a big firm andopened up my own office, 04/20/1895.
(31:21):
About a year later, two of my close friends andcolleagues also left and started their own
firm.
And I reconnected with them, and they weren'tquite sure about their succession planning.
They had a small group, of people.
They were around 12 to 15 people usually overthat twenty five year period.
(31:44):
And we talked and talked and talked and met afew times, And then I made the introduction to
them and are at the time CEO who is now, ex CEOthat stays very active in acquisitions and
mergers for the firm.
He's done an outstanding job of that.
(32:06):
He's presented across the country on bestpractices for acquiring firms and merging with
firms.
And he's been brilliant at that.
And I made the introduction and most of thetime, this takes a couple of years.
You really wanna dig in, make sure it's theright culture, make sure it's the right fit,
make sure they're practicing, make sure theyeverybody understands what they're in for, so
(32:30):
to speak, and the change.
And it took a lot less time here because of therelationship that I had with these two folks
that I knew so well from my previous work.
So I think we got through it in about a year.
And June 1, twenty four merged and became HED.
And that was the start of the HED office.
(32:52):
And interestingly enough, these guys are not inhousing.
They are in K-twelve practice, which is one ofthe sectors where we practice and have a very
good reputation, yet didn't really get big workthat they wanted to do because they stayed
kinda small.
What we did before we finalized the merger waswe teamed up on a project together, a k 12
(33:19):
project, and went in as a as a team Mhmm.
And won that project.
And so now the Denver client base isunderstanding, and they are so used.
This is happening a lot in today's world, themerger and acquisition piece.
Mhmm.
And as they started to talk to their clientsabout the fact that there was a merge merger
(33:45):
pending, their clients responded essentially,oh, well, we've been waiting for that because
all everybody else has done it already.
What what took you so long sort of a thing.
So it was, a pretty smooth transition.
Not to say that there are challenges in doingthat, but it has worked out pretty well.
(34:07):
And now, you know, they're able to do morerobust work, and I am working to grow Denver
and the housing side.
And a lot of our sectors, by the way, are veryinterest.
This is our newest office now.
There, you know, there's still always stuff inthe works, but right now, this is our our
newest location.
And there's a lot of activity, that is relevantto our other sectors.
(34:31):
So we think there's gonna be some momentum.
Denver is kind of a hub for aerospace, and wehave a science in advanced manufacturing.
And so I'm trying to help facilitate meetingsand business development people that we've got
that were are working in multiple sectors.
So we're growing Denver.
We we are already up to 16 or so from 12 and,expect it to keep going.
(34:56):
And, I will say that it's interesting.
I stepped away for twelve years and I cameback.
And at first, when I came back, I was stillreally buried in other locations.
So I was traveling quite a bit to serviceclients and stay connected with projects that
were in other locations.
(35:17):
And as I worked to reconnect to Denver, it'samazing how different the landscape is after
twelve years.
Different development teams, differentcontractors.
And, of course, we went through COVID, so thatshook things up a little bit.
Mhmm.
It just was a very different landscape and ithas taken longer than I thought it was going to
actually to reconnect.
And part of it's because I'm traveling andtrying to build Detroit and tried to build
(35:40):
Dallas, and let's just throw Denver in therebecause we have an office there now.
So it's it's a it's a lot.
It's a lot of work and our we have rigorousgoals and we're determined to go after it and
build those markets.
Can I ask how much in terms of businessdevelopment, how much have things changed?
(36:01):
Right.
The whole remote app perspective versus inperson.
When you look at pre COVID versus now, how muchhas business development changed for you, if at
all?
It's different.
You really need to be able to effectively sellthis idea that you can service a project by
(36:23):
putting the best team together, and that bestteam may not all be in the same location.
I think that's a difference.
And, again, this has to do with how we evolvedfrom, again, a location based practice to a
sector based practice.
I think that has changed the approach and thestrategy to marketing and business development.
(36:48):
What's nice about it is that it has broadenedour client base.
It has broadened our targets, and we can nowtake a more unified approach to going after
those targets.
So, again, we're we're meeting regularly everytwo weeks as I said, and we will have clients
(37:11):
that are doing work in Dallas, that are doingwork in Southern California, that are doing
work in Chicago.
And we share the stories so that when we go outto develop business with that client, we are
able to talk about the fact that we did workwith you in Los Angeles and reach out to this
(37:35):
individual, and they will tell you about us andtell you about working with us.
That's part of our national strategy as youknow or as I've said.
So that's different where I think we are.
We, you know, we pursued clients that workednationally before.
(38:00):
However, we were working in a focused effort ona particular location.
And I think it strengthens our stories when wecan talk about the fact that we're connected
with this person in Dallas and our our the teamin Southern California says, well, yeah, I know
(38:20):
him and I'd talk with him, you know, from timeto time and I get it.
And and and we can share a positive experiencethere.
That word travels and it helps our businessdevelopment efforts.
So there's a couple of examples of how it'sit's different and how we approach it
(38:43):
differently as we come out of the COVID era andwork again in a more sector based format.
Do you use, other than the partners, andperhaps other architects, do you use BD
representatives?
Like, do you use people that are specific roleis like, hey.
Just go develop some business.
(39:03):
Yeah.
We have specific BD people.
They are strategy and business developmentleaders, and they are in all of our markets,
and they are assigned specific sectors.
So in the Denver market, we hired a man who isconnected to workplace, housing, and science,
(39:31):
and that's where his focus is.
So I get about a third of his time and workhard to get as much as I can.
So so he helped me develop business in thismarket.
We have people in all location.
We have an outstanding they're all great,actually.
We have a really strong business developer inthe Detroit market.
(39:52):
We have a really strong business developer inthe Dallas market, and they are shared among
sectors, but that's all they do.
And then the sector leader role in our companyis really defined as a seller doer.
So they are helping to sell, but they're alsovery much involved in projects.
(40:14):
So the business developer, depending on theirlevel of experience and their capabilities,
their job is really to get people to the frontdoor.
Bring people to the front door, and then thesector leader can close the deal.
And we've got outstanding of examples of thathappening.
(40:36):
Most recently probably is in our SouthernCalifornia where we have San Diego and Los
Angeles.
We have a business developer in San Diego whogot sort of a lead from a civil engineer about
a big project.
They were already working with an architect, soit was kind of a long shot.
She brings this company to the front door, asector leader, and a good project architect
(41:02):
went to meet with them independently.
They've got very well prepared because of allthe intelligence that the business developer
was able to bring to the table, and they wentthere and sold that deal, and we won that work.
And they were, again, they were working with adifferent group, and they saw the value in
working with our group instead.
(41:23):
And it's been it's just a great story.
I I love that story.
I hold that story up to all of our businessdevelopers, Bring them to the front door, and
then the sector leaders will help you close thedeal.
And I like them to stay involved.
Some of them are very capable.
Some of them, meaning strategy and businessdevelopment leaders, to get through the
(41:47):
proposals and to, again, share the intelligencebecause they're out there.
They're out there talking to these people, andthey learn a lot about them as they're out
there.
And so they bring them back to, the the thebusiness or I'm sorry, the the sector leaders.
And the sector leaders are really subjectmatter experts in what they do.
(42:12):
So they can then get in front of them one wayor the other virtually or in person and really
close the deal.
It's great.
That we've seen similarly being more sectorfocused than location focused.
It's not that we throw location out, you know,out the door here, but being focused on
(42:34):
specific sectors helps one add value to thosepossible prospects.
When you know what's happening, you have a goodpulse on what's happening, and they need other
things that you don't offer, you you haveprobably a laundry list of things that you can
offer them that are just not direct.
Hey.
Let's do your architecture.
It could be like, oh, you need a specialtycontractor that you know that's in that
(42:54):
location that specifically does house orspecifically does k through 12.
Right?
So I can totally see the transition the twoyears ago transitioning into this, how that can
be very powerful for you and your businessdevelopment across the board.
Yeah.
Really true.
Very effective.
I I'm so pleased with the structure.
I I feel that it's a great hedge.
(43:16):
We've talked a little bit about this wheresince we're in nine sectors and housing's been
weak the last year or two as I as I've noted acouple of times out.
If you're if you're twisting the your ownknife, that's on you.
No.
That's a good point.
Right?
What am I gonna I'm not gonna go crawl in ahole and cry about it.
(43:37):
I'm gonna go out there and try and get it getit
That's right.
Take care of it.
Right?
However so a couple of our sectors have beenreally busy and very, very strong.
And the beauty of that is that while we havehad weaker sales in the short term, We've been
able to have some of our team members join thatother sector for a short amount of time to
(44:02):
support them instead of having to lay peopleoff.
And that's really positive and really helps theattitude of our team to, you know, not be
preoccupied with, oh my gosh, I don't see,housing work.
What's gonna happen to me.
As long as they're willing to jump into ahigher education project or a data center
(44:25):
project or a K 12 project, maybe for sixmonths, maybe for three months, maybe for one
month.
We have that kind of flexibility and it reallyhelps with retention and then, and we're very
deliberate about it.
So if we say we're going to offer a team memberup, first of all, we'll have a talk with that
team member.
(44:45):
Hey, this is what's happening.
You cool.
And they're like, yeah, I'm cool with that.
And so we, we get that set up And then with theother sector leaders, we're like, okay, this is
a two month gig.
Right?
I gotta have this person back in two monthsbecause we're projecting these three or four
opportunities.
And at least one of those is going to comethrough and I'm going to need this person back
(45:08):
on my team.
And we hold, you know, everybody accountable towhat we discuss and what we agree upon.
So that works great.
So, sharing people between business units,which is amazing idea.
Core values I think is some of the piece ofcohesiveness, especially if you've never met
the person.
Now you're flipping to a different businessbusiness unit, even if it's for one, two, three
(45:30):
months.
How do you make sure there's obviously nuanceand cohesion, right?
You kind of even mentioned doing differentthings because it's just the different cities
that you're, that you're coming from.
Look, I refer Chicago,
Four letter words as part of
my vocabulary, but that might not be so muchmaybe, from Dallas or some other part of the
(45:53):
country.
How do you help with that cohesion?
Wow.
That's a good question.
You know, part of that just has to be aperson's attitude and how flexible are they.
I think we can help prepare for a culture shockbetween Los Angeles and Dallas, for example.
(46:19):
And and there is a lot of communication withother sector leaders that might be in different
locations.
And even frankly, if you're in the same sectorand in a different location, you're you're
dealing with nuance to differences and culturalnorms that you have to adapt to.
(46:43):
Now does that is that good for a person?
Does that strengthen a person's overallcharacter or overall abilities?
Probably in some cases, maybe not so much inothers.
So we'll wanna check-in.
Hey.
How's it going in that sector?
Or how's it going working with the Dallas teamor how's it going?
And addressing it and addressing it all theway.
(47:05):
You know, we we have a culture ofcollaboration, which is really important.
So we don't, you know, ten years, I've I'vebeen working at HED, and I just don't see a lot
of black cape, you know, ego drivenpersonalities.
People and they're probably out there.
(47:27):
I mean, I don't know every last person.
I just think we have a culture of collaborationand empathy.
So when we have come from differentbackgrounds, different cultural norms, again,
I'll say, we can accept.
(47:48):
We may not agree, but we can accept and workwithin that ecosystem.
K.
And, you know, it's not perfect.
Sometimes there'll be a a bump in the road orthere'll be something that happens, and and
we're quick to address it quick to address itand talk talk it through and see if it doesn't
(48:08):
work.
We gotta make a change, then okay.
Or if we can make it work, that's even better.
I'm sorry.
I'll cut you off.
Well
No.
It's okay.
Why doesn't it work?
You know, in the instances why it doesn't work.
I guess I would say that perhaps it is based ona lack of flexibility for a person or a team or
(48:30):
a certain way of working together as a team.
That's what I would say.
Or, you know, and and so some places, like,let's say, I mean, Housers for the most part
are really passionate about the work they do.
You know, our whole thing is positive impact.
Our whole mission is around positive impact topeople, clients, communities that we work in.
(48:57):
I don't know what greater impact you could havethan creating home for someone.
On our affordable housing practice, some of ourtenants, some of the tenants that occupy our
buildings, their previous home was the street.
How could you have a more positive impact?
And if you've got a team member who's all aboutthat, providing homes for people or experiences
(49:26):
for people, because hospitality is also part ofour sector, Experiences, place making, things
that really impact people who use the spaces weoccupy.
And with all due respect, we have a very robustpractice in mission critical doing data
centers.
And the same philosophies apply.
(49:49):
If I take somebody out of the housing sectorwho is engaged in what I just talked about,
changing people's lives that way, and thenthey're going to a data center project.
They're still having that ability to impact,but it's much different.
(50:09):
And some might say you know, they would call meand say, Otis, when can I come back into the
housing sector?
And, again, every sector that we have and everyproject that we do is important, and we bring
the same attitude and the same energy to it, wejust have to deal with some of the nuances as
(50:35):
you identified, Will.
I mean, it's it's just something that you haveto put energy into and work with people.
So it is a conscious effort then for sure.
Yeah.
I think it's gotta be a conscious effort.
I'd love to talk more about this, but Justin, Ithink it's time for our last question.
(50:56):
Yes.
Absolutely.
Otis, if you could go back twenty years, whatadvice would you give?
Myself?
Yeah.
Yourself.
You go back twenty years.
You get to give yourself advice.
What would that be?
You know, I reflect on my life and my career,and there's always things that you might do
(51:18):
differently.
I have to say, I am really blessed.
I am happy.
I have had tragedy in my life.
I've had huge successes, and that is what lifeis about.
I would say, what advice would I give myself?
(51:42):
Don't ever stop growing.
Don't ever stop looking at different ways, atbetter ways.
Explore constantly.
I feel kinda like I do that.
I just feel that that's the best advice I couldoffer to myself.
Oh, it's powerful for sure.
(52:03):
The continuous improvement and curiosity pushus a long way as a society, just as in general
as in human beings.
So I love that.
You can't stop.
You can't stop growing.
You can't stop wanting to make a difference.
You can't don't stop innovating.
And when you get to be at my stage in yourcareer, there's one thing you always are
saying.
(52:24):
Keep the old man out.
Keep the old man out.
We got no place for the old man.
We have to get up and move and exercise andgive it all we got every day.
Awesome.
This has been a ton of fun.
If somebody wanted to get a hold of you, whatwould be the best way for them to do that?
(52:48):
Hed.design.
Go to hed.design.
You'll find all of our team members.
You could look up business leaders.
You'll find me, my email, my phone number.
Call me, reach out.
I'd love to talk to you about anything,architecture and design and housing.
(53:08):
Yes.
As a houser.
And is there anything else you'd like to tellthe people before we say our goodbyes?
I hope that you found some benefit in listeningto this talk and that you are committed to
doing high quality housing work and helping thecommunities where you're working.
Well said.
This has been a ton of fun, listeners.
(53:29):
I hope you had a good time.
I'm gonna throw all the show all the links andall that stuff, in our show notes, so look
there for that.
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
Thank you, guys.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
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Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(53:55):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(54:18):
And until next
time.
Keep building scale.
I feel prepared for it, and it's because youhave a foundation which is based in trust,
honesty, transparency, and authenticity.
And those values guided me in my own practice,and they guide me today.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
(00:23):
company scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(00:43):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:06):
business are people, process and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/health.
Today's guest is Otis O'Dell.
(01:27):
Otis is a national leader in multifamilyhousing development with over thirty years of
experience shaping communities across thecountry.
As a business leader at HED, he drives nationalstrategy portfolio development, overseeing
projects from luxury high rises to affordablehousing.
His expertise goes beyond construction.
He navigates complex development markets,pioneers innovative designs, and is a strong
(01:51):
advocate for modular, sustainable, andaffordable housing.
Otis serves as a board member on the Council onOpen Building and is a frequent speaker at real
estate and development events, includingBizNow.
His projects have been featured in Love ThatDesign and The Architects newspaper,
reinforcing his reputation as both an expertand a visionary in the field.
(02:11):
HED is one of the top 200 design firms in TheUS, delivering integrated architecture and
engineering solutions across housing,healthcare, education, and much, much more.
With all that said, Otis, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
I'm glad to be here today.
Yeah.
We're excited.
It was fun meeting you and learning not onlyyour story at HED, but also running your own
(02:34):
firm prior to that.
So tell us a little bit about your own story,how you got into architecture, and then how you
started your firm and then HED as well.
Alright.
Well, you know, that may take the wholepodcast, so we'll jump in and see where it
goes.
Here we go.
Let's not start at six years old.
Let's go a little bit further down the line.
Well, I will say that in tenth grade, I knew itwas gonna be architecture.
(02:55):
So I never looked back and I I was, reallydetermined to to get there and got licensed in
my early twenties, actually, mid twenties, Iguess.
So I was working for a well established largefirm in Denver on a partner track, and I said,
no.
I gotta give this a try.
So I quit a secure job and went to my basementand started Odell Architects, and that was
(03:20):
04/24/1995.
I remember that day well.
I did have a sixteen year run, and, at mylargest, I was about 17 people.
After sixteen years, it was between, after02/2008, '2 thousand '10 when things just went
(03:43):
to heck with multifamily, which is where mostof my focus has always been and was at the
time.
I was down to seven or eight people, and I soldthat firm to, one of my senior project
managers.
She rebranded and took over.
She's still in business with seven people,maybe four, five, six, seven people.
(04:05):
I moved off to California.
That's where I connected with HED.
And I quickly became, an associate principaland then a principal.
And then as HED made a move from more of alocation based or a market based firm to a
sector based firm, I assumed the role ofleading the housing and mixed use practice
(04:30):
across the country for h.
We have multiple locations, nine offices, about450 architects and engineers.
Okay.
So one thing that comes to mind, prior to HED,so you're at your firm 95 starting up here.
Obviously, people are coming on board overthose, next sixteen years.
(04:52):
When did you start realizing that you weredoing less architecture?
Like, you know, like, at a certain point, youhit, oh, I have to just be the business
component of this, not necessarily the designcomponent.
Not that you completely give it all up, but,when did you start realizing, like, these
skills of architecture are I'm using those alot less than I was when I was just designing
(05:12):
stuff by myself.
Well, that's a great question.
It didn't take long, actually, you know, thatyou had to address the business side of
everything.
I did have a business plan when I started.
And when I started, it was just me.
Within a year, I had office space andemployees.
And as soon as you get employees, you thinkdifferently because you're feeding other
(05:38):
families and other, you know, paying othermortgages essentially.
So within a really relatively short amount oftime, certainly less than five years, three to
five years, there was a realization that I hadto stop every month for a couple of days and
make sure invoices got out.
(05:59):
I had to sell business.
I had to be out and about and buildrelationships so that business would continue
to come in.
Of course, we had to do very good work and bevery knowledgeable.
So watching out for all of that.
And you're right.
(06:19):
I still had a hand in the architecture side ofit and worked to support my teams, worked to
support the project managers, got involved withall the internal team meetings, and helped
guide the projects and found the balance
(06:40):
between working on the business side of thingsand working on specific projects.
So, you've got people, right?
And as the business grows, there's a pointwhere those skills even have to grow.
You just have to start being a manager, as atransition.
So talk about what translates from when youwere a business owner to
(07:05):
a lot, a lot translates because my officialtitle today at H E D is national business
leader for the housing and mixed use sector.
So I am paying attention to projectperformance, the financial performance of the
work, just like I had to do and learned to doin my own company.
(07:27):
And you'd learn to do it in your own companymaybe out of fear because you hear everybody's,
you know, talking in your ear.
Otis, did you know that ninety percent of allbusinesses fail in the first five years?
And you're like, I that won't be me.
And luckily, I I did make it for sixteen years.
So much of what I had to pay attention to as abusiness owner is very similar at a different
(07:55):
scale to what I have to pay attention to today.
So I am watching project performance.
And of course, it's not all me.
I've got some really great team members who Isupervise.
One of them is an operations leader.
And then we have other sector leaders that arearound the country who are all focused on the
housing and mixed use center sector.
(08:15):
So I don't wanna take all the credit.
I do have to do a lot of strategy aroundbusiness development.
And instead of focusing on a single market, I'mfocusing on the country.
I love the national platform, and I will saythat the work I did in building business and
(08:36):
strategizing and building relationships in myown firm is applicable to what I'm doing today.
It's at a different level.
Of course, it's a different time and we connectdifferently.
And when you're national, you are connecting inwhatever way you can, including virtually.
I will say that I'm a believer in face to facecommunication and face to face contact.
(09:01):
Here's an example.
I have a very strong client, good clientrelationship, and part of our business strategy
this year was to reach out to existing clientsor past clients where we had done successful
work.
Now I did that in my own business as well.
(09:22):
So we executed on that strategy last week.
I went to Georgia, and one of our clients gaveme a half a day with their entire development
team.
This is a very big, national client.
And I knew what I wanted to get out of thatmeeting, and I left there with exactly what I
(09:44):
wanted to get out of it, which is additionalopportunities.
And the question they asked me is, how many canyou handle per year?
That's exactly what you wanna hear at a meetinglike that.
So, you know, back to the question that youasked, so much of what I experienced and really
had to work with in my own business is veryrelevant to my role as business leader.
(10:10):
And I'm talking about marketing, businessdevelopment, project oversight.
I do still serve as principal in charge onspecific projects, which keeps me in the
architecture world, which I love.
That was something that I, of course, broughtfrom my previous experience.
(10:32):
I could not separate myself from projectsbecause when you're a small company at 16
people, you are the business.
You are you are the company.
And clients, as much as you say to them, here'sthe team.
Here's the project manager.
Here's the project architect.
They wanna talk to you.
(10:53):
They wanna talk to me.
Right?
So that's not always the case in today's worldwhere we have, you know, dozens of clients
actually and multiple opportunities.
Not everybody has to talk to me or feels likethey have to talk to me.
However, what's similar again is when there's aproblem, then they want to talk to you.
(11:17):
And so and that's, you know, under the title ofsort of project management support is what I've
always called it, where whether it's my ownbusiness so many years ago or in today's world,
if there's a challenge and it could be, youknow, in today's world, it could be another
principal in the firm.
It could be another sector leader who is justnot comfortable in tough situations with a
(11:43):
client, and I'm brought in.
And I don't mind it.
I feel prepared for it, and it's because youhave a foundation which is based in trust,
honesty, transparency, and authenticity.
And those values guided me in my own practice,and they guide me today.
(12:03):
How important are those values as you'relooking at others on your team?
Right?
So, you know, we certainly believe core valuesare are crucially important to finding the
right people.
Right?
Like, you you need to have the right people.
And then, obviously, if they can do the rightthings, then they're in the right seat.
But how how does that what does that look like?
How how does the team get built, and how muchdoes core values come into play?
(12:25):
Core values are really critical, and they'rereally important as you recruit.
People wanna be a part of something reallygood.
So and I will say that adding people to ourteam, recruiting, interviewing, it can be very
(12:45):
challenging to get the feel for somebody in aone hour interview.
And you really do want to find ways to get ademonstration that there's honesty, there's
trust, there's sincerity, and authenticity.
(13:06):
I think it's really important.
And we want to learn about people because oneof our core values at HED is be you with us.
We want you to be who you are and be a part ofour team contribute.
We'll contribute back.
And it's the synergy that you want.
There's nothing better.
And this has been something I believe for myentire career.
(13:32):
If you can align someone with the work theywanna do and the work they really are
passionate about, then it's a win win.
They're more likely to do a really solid jobfor you because they're doing what they wanna
do.
So I think that notion of being you with us isis really important.
(13:54):
We also stress performance.
We do want high performing people.
We like to collaborate.
We like complexity in the work because we arecritical thinkers.
So we start to talk about that as we build theteam.
And we also recognize how important it is tomaintain the team we have.
(14:18):
And retention of team members becomes reallyimportant.
And that's again where the core values come toplay because as long as a person feels like
they're contributing and they have a verytransparent working relationship, it's again
(14:38):
based in honesty and high quality output, highperformance output, man, you wanna hang on to
those people.
How do you
measure performance?
Well, we're pretty connected with our teamsregularly.
Where I'm principal in charge, every projectpretty much has a weekly internal team meeting,
(15:03):
and assignments are given or discussed.
It is a two way street always.
Where are you on this task?
How have you progressed?
And we keep track of our performance along theway.
So everybody's putting their time in.
(15:23):
Everybody's getting closer to the finish line.
We measure it regularly.
We do work plans, and then we monitor thosework plans, and we put together tools and
systems that allow us to measure ourperformance.
We look at our multipliers at least twice permonth.
(15:45):
We have our goals set, and there's rigor to usreally looking at overall project performance
and then really drilling down to make sure thatindividual performance is following through.
So just being supportive along the way, it'snot where we're out there to punish somebody if
(16:14):
they're not performing or if we see a weakness.
We're empathetic.
We're reaching out and saying, is everythingokay?
Did you have too much work this week?
You didn't get some of this stuff done.
Is something else going on that we need to talkabout or talk through?
How can we support you?
(16:34):
It's that kind of interaction that buildsstrong teams and lets you really have a view
into the inner workings of a team.
Strong teams build strong projects.
That's just how it is.
And we really put a lot of emphasis into, thestrength of our team.
(16:56):
So we've been able to build the team over thelast, I would say, four or five years.
It has gotten better and better and better.
Again, people want to be part of somethinggreat.
So, when we talk about the quality of the work,the quality of the work, the quality of the
work, it's so important for our team members tohear that because they wanna do great things.
(17:19):
They don't, you know, they don't want to be apart of something that's half baked.
They wanna be a part of something that'sawesome.
No.
That that's, you know, we think about peopleall the time.
Obviously, one of the pillars of scale as wesay, people process technology, and how people
are such a difference maker.
And especially as you said, the last fouryears, you just keep incrementally getting
(17:41):
better and better with your people.
You're inherently gonna produce better stuff,right, or better projects.
One thing you had said is, you know, you have,you know, your your roadmap or your plan for
the year or, you know, your strategy thatyou're going for.
How does that work, you know, your one practicewithin a larger organization?
So, like, how does that work structure work of,like, hey.
(18:01):
Like, the company wants to go here, x, whereverthat is.
Like, then do you build it off that?
Or do you come together and say, like, we thinkwe can produce this much this year and then
throw it in the pile for the big big companyside?
So what what does that look like in strategyand planning for your practice?
So it's a little bit of both.
The firm always works against a, and Ishouldn't say against, with a strategic plan.
(18:25):
Mhmm.
A new strategic plan was rolled out last year.
It drives pretty much all that we're doing.
And then we, as a sector, do our own businessplanning at the end of every year.
So we have a sector based business plan thatreally ties back to the strategic plan and the
(18:49):
strategic plan goals.
We take the business plan that we've developed.
Of course, it's reviewed at the corporatelevel, and I'm I'm I'm right next to the CEO,
the co CEOs of the company.
So direct report there.
So I'm very much connected with them, and wehave biweekly meetings to just check-in and see
(19:12):
how things are going.
And then we have biweekly meetings with theleaders of the sector.
So the sector leaders from across the countryand the business and development leaders all
meet every other week, and the business plan isessentially our agenda.
(19:34):
How are we doing against what we said we weregonna do?
How can we get better?
What's in the way?
What roadblocks do, we need to remove so thatwe can have a really strong chance of meeting
the goals that we've set.
And again, those are tied back to the strategicplan that guides the movement of the company
(19:56):
forward.
So, we talked about this a little bit, in thepre interview, which is where you're at didn't
start that long ago.
And you also said something which I found veryinteresting, which was that they had made a
transition from sort of being geography basedto being sector based.
(20:18):
Very interesting transition.
Why, why do that?
That came out of some consulting as we wereputting our strategic plan together.
The company was putting its strategic plantogether.
I think at the beginning of developing thecurrent strategic plan, it's only been a little
(20:42):
over two years where we were focused on ourlocations, and that was sort of the unit of the
structure that we worked within.
We stayed kind of local or certainly regionalto that office location, focused on the work at
that location, etcetera.
(21:05):
And then what you find is that people inDetroit versus people in Los Angeles versus
people in Dallas versus people in SanFrancisco, they aren't necessarily doing things
the same way.
So when you're a company and 450 I mean, wecompete with companies that are 1,200, three
(21:28):
thousand, and 5,000.
When you get that big, you need consistency inhow you come across and the processes that you
use.
So what makes the most sense I guess I wouldadd our goal is really to be a national company
(21:50):
and to connect with and work with nationalclients.
So if we're working with client a who's inCalifornia and we learn that that same client's
doing business in Denver or in Chicago, wewanna understand that and be able to respond to
that.
(22:10):
So what we do now in a sector based structureand as we've done a little bit of a brand
refresh just in the last few months, we nowhave taken all of our locations off of the
letterhead.
So we used to be focused still on when we do aproposal and it was being done sort of out of
(22:32):
the Los Angeles office, we'd pull the LosAngeles letterhead.
It would have all the, places that we areoffice, and then it would be highlighting the
office location.
We took that off of the letterhead and nowunderneath the the brand is all the services
that we offer instead.
Right?
So what we do now, and I think it really makesso much sense and works really well.
(22:59):
We put together the best team, and that couldbe a person from Sacramento and a person from
Detroit and a person from Boston and a personfrom somewhere else.
And we align the strength of that team with theassignment.
And it doesn't have to be all team members fromone location, and it it strengthens our
(23:27):
offering.
It strengthens the services because we are, ina way, customizing the team and aligning it
with the specific task where maybe it's arenovation and we've got these people who do
renovations and we put that best team together.
Maybe it's a project that has, you know, aninternal parking structure and housing wrapped
(23:51):
around it.
We can pick the team that's got that experienceand put that together.
Of course you want to have boots on the groundsomewhere near the project location, so you can
service it when it gets under construction.
So we take that into account as well.
It just works really well and it reinforcesthis idea that we have systems, we have
(24:14):
processes and we all are in the same boat andwe use them the same.
So that now I got somebody in Detroit workingwith somebody in Dallas, and they're like,
yeah, this is how we do it.
That makes all kinds of sense.
And by the way, we're always open.
If we hear somebody saying, hey, we thinkthere's a better way.
Of course, we wanna listen to that.
So so that's really why we did it.
(24:35):
And I will say that you asked or you'vementioned that it hadn't been that long and
it's true.
So we all went through the COVID thingtogether.
We all pivoted to a virtual environment reallyquickly.
And we were set up.
We have really strong technology people, whichis a blessing.
And as we were given the demand to stay home,we were able to connect and continue our
(25:03):
meetings and continue our projects in a veryshort amount of time.
Within a week or two, we were just rocking andexcuse me, rocking and rolling.
So as we emerge from the COVID era, it reallyprepared us for this kind of structure where we
can connect with people very easily no matterwhere they are.
(25:26):
And as I mentioned before, I still like to goand see.
I'm leaving tomorrow to go to Los Angeles whereI was in that office for so many years, and I'm
reconnecting and connecting with clients thereface to face.
And so we were able to do that very quicklyand, it's worked.
And for the most part, all of our team hasreally embraced embraced the structure.
(25:49):
You mentioned, how face to face interactionimportant for relationships.
When you have more of a sector and notnecessarily location team, right, how do you
make sure that you're keeping that, you know,that feeling of face to face if somebody's in
Detroit, in Boston, in LA, in Denver, andsomewhere else where it's like, you are working
together, you are collaborating, and,obviously, you work virtually through COVID as
(26:12):
you mentioned.
But how do you really, really instill thatrelationship in the team?
I do think it's important to travel, and I do.
As the sector leader, I go to our otheroffices.
I connect peep with people one on one, makesure they're aware when we have a special event
(26:35):
like a business plan or some other document.
Many times, I will travel around and present itin person Mhmm.
And take questions and get everybody on boardwith what the document is saying and try to
(26:56):
keep that culture as best I can.
And then we do have something in our sector,and most of the sectors have something like
this, but we call ourselves Housers.
And we have a monthly Housers forum where, youknow, anything goes pretty much.
Any kind of topic, it can be a project thatsomebody's working on.
(27:18):
It can be somebody else's project that we sawthat we really like, and we wanna talk about
it.
It can be I'm experiencing this in theconstruction phase of this project, and I wanna
share it with you so you can watch out for itnext time when you get there.
So that's still a virtual experience, but it'san important one that helps maintain culture
(27:41):
and and connectivity.
And you're doing this remotely.
Right?
That so you're connecting you're connectingremotely.
You're not okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Monthly, we have a Housers Forum, and it's ait's a virtual connection.
We're we're connecting remotely at that point.
So we we mix face to face interaction withvirtual interaction.
(28:02):
As I mentioned, I'm going to Los Angelestomorrow.
I will be connecting with team members that Ihaven't seen in a while.
In addition to connecting with clients, I'll berun ragged because people will wanna, you know,
go have coffee, and I I wanna do that.
I want to be able to connect individually withteam members.
And, of course, you have to realize, you know,we have houses in a lot of locations.
(28:25):
We're probably focused more with our housingsector in Los Angeles and Chicago.
So going to those locations frequently willhelp maintain continuity and connectedness and
cultural vibe that I think is important.
It's not to say we don't have houses in otherother locations.
(28:46):
We do.
And we work hard to try and make sure thatwe're connected, certainly, virtually, but also
face to face whenever we when
Next time you're in Chicago, you'll have to go,face to face with Will as he is in Chicago.
I will do that, Will.
I think I told you my daughter is in Chicagotoo, and one of our CEOs is in Chicago.
One of our CEOs is in Los Angeles.
(29:08):
So I, I do enjoy going to Chicago.
And by the way, Chicago is a very activemarket.
Mhmm.
Oh, yeah.
There's always development going here.
Yeah.
And, you know, as tough as housing has been inthe last couple of years, there is, significant
activity, in the Chicago and Detroit marketsand the Dallas market.
Those are two areas that we're really focusedon Detroit and well, three, I would say we call
(29:33):
it the three Ds in our, in our businessplanning and that's Denver, Detroit and Dallas.
See big opportunities there as we try to comeout of what's been a challenging couple of
years for housing sales.
For sure.
So how you're in Denver now, but you weren'tbefore because there wasn't a Denver office.
(29:53):
So how did that happen?
How did you did you just say, hey.
I'm gonna twist some arms and I'm gonna getback to Denver because that's where I wanna be,
or how how did this work?
There's a little bit of that going on.
I was in LA, and I really there's a lot ofgreat things about Los Angeles, and I really
enjoyed working there and building a team thereand met great people.
(30:14):
And so we went through COVID and after COVID oreven, you know, toward the tail end of COVID.
But during COVID, many of our team members weremoving and going to satellite locations and
connecting remotely and all of that.
And circumstances, my wife and I decided it wastime for us to go back to Denver.
(30:36):
So we, got the blessing of I got the blessingof, of my partners, the partners in the firm.
And there was an underlying interest in Denver.
Given that we have, you know, a big presence inCalifornia, we have a strong presence in
Chicago, Detroit.
There was a gap in the middle of the country,and there was a lot of interest in Denver.
(30:57):
So it was four years ago actually that I movedback tail end of COVID, and I reconnected with
some people.
And there was, a firm that two of my closecolleagues had started about twenty five years
ago.
So when I left the security of a big firm andopened up my own office, 04/20/1895.
(31:21):
About a year later, two of my close friends andcolleagues also left and started their own
firm.
And I reconnected with them, and they weren'tquite sure about their succession planning.
They had a small group, of people.
They were around 12 to 15 people usually overthat twenty five year period.
(31:44):
And we talked and talked and talked and met afew times, And then I made the introduction to
them and are at the time CEO who is now, ex CEOthat stays very active in acquisitions and
mergers for the firm.
He's done an outstanding job of that.
(32:06):
He's presented across the country on bestpractices for acquiring firms and merging with
firms.
And he's been brilliant at that.
And I made the introduction and most of thetime, this takes a couple of years.
You really wanna dig in, make sure it's theright culture, make sure it's the right fit,
make sure they're practicing, make sure theyeverybody understands what they're in for, so
(32:30):
to speak, and the change.
And it took a lot less time here because of therelationship that I had with these two folks
that I knew so well from my previous work.
So I think we got through it in about a year.
And June 1, twenty four merged and became HED.
And that was the start of the HED office.
(32:52):
And interestingly enough, these guys are not inhousing.
They are in K-twelve practice, which is one ofthe sectors where we practice and have a very
good reputation, yet didn't really get big workthat they wanted to do because they stayed
kinda small.
What we did before we finalized the merger waswe teamed up on a project together, a k 12
(33:19):
project, and went in as a as a team Mhmm.
And won that project.
And so now the Denver client base isunderstanding, and they are so used.
This is happening a lot in today's world, themerger and acquisition piece.
Mhmm.
And as they started to talk to their clientsabout the fact that there was a merge merger
(33:45):
pending, their clients responded essentially,oh, well, we've been waiting for that because
all everybody else has done it already.
What what took you so long sort of a thing.
So it was, a pretty smooth transition.
Not to say that there are challenges in doingthat, but it has worked out pretty well.
(34:07):
And now, you know, they're able to do morerobust work, and I am working to grow Denver
and the housing side.
And a lot of our sectors, by the way, are veryinterest.
This is our newest office now.
There, you know, there's still always stuff inthe works, but right now, this is our our
newest location.
And there's a lot of activity, that is relevantto our other sectors.
(34:31):
So we think there's gonna be some momentum.
Denver is kind of a hub for aerospace, and wehave a science in advanced manufacturing.
And so I'm trying to help facilitate meetingsand business development people that we've got
that were are working in multiple sectors.
So we're growing Denver.
We we are already up to 16 or so from 12 and,expect it to keep going.
(34:56):
And, I will say that it's interesting.
I stepped away for twelve years and I cameback.
And at first, when I came back, I was stillreally buried in other locations.
So I was traveling quite a bit to serviceclients and stay connected with projects that
were in other locations.
(35:17):
And as I worked to reconnect to Denver, it'samazing how different the landscape is after
twelve years.
Different development teams, differentcontractors.
And, of course, we went through COVID, so thatshook things up a little bit.
Mhmm.
It just was a very different landscape and ithas taken longer than I thought it was going to
actually to reconnect.
And part of it's because I'm traveling andtrying to build Detroit and tried to build
(35:40):
Dallas, and let's just throw Denver in therebecause we have an office there now.
So it's it's a it's a lot.
It's a lot of work and our we have rigorousgoals and we're determined to go after it and
build those markets.
Can I ask how much in terms of businessdevelopment, how much have things changed?
(36:01):
Right.
The whole remote app perspective versus inperson.
When you look at pre COVID versus now, how muchhas business development changed for you, if at
all?
It's different.
You really need to be able to effectively sellthis idea that you can service a project by
(36:23):
putting the best team together, and that bestteam may not all be in the same location.
I think that's a difference.
And, again, this has to do with how we evolvedfrom, again, a location based practice to a
sector based practice.
I think that has changed the approach and thestrategy to marketing and business development.
(36:48):
What's nice about it is that it has broadenedour client base.
It has broadened our targets, and we can nowtake a more unified approach to going after
those targets.
So, again, we're we're meeting regularly everytwo weeks as I said, and we will have clients
(37:11):
that are doing work in Dallas, that are doingwork in Southern California, that are doing
work in Chicago.
And we share the stories so that when we go outto develop business with that client, we are
able to talk about the fact that we did workwith you in Los Angeles and reach out to this
(37:35):
individual, and they will tell you about us andtell you about working with us.
That's part of our national strategy as youknow or as I've said.
So that's different where I think we are.
We, you know, we pursued clients that workednationally before.
(38:00):
However, we were working in a focused effort ona particular location.
And I think it strengthens our stories when wecan talk about the fact that we're connected
with this person in Dallas and our our the teamin Southern California says, well, yeah, I know
(38:20):
him and I'd talk with him, you know, from timeto time and I get it.
And and and we can share a positive experiencethere.
That word travels and it helps our businessdevelopment efforts.
So there's a couple of examples of how it'sit's different and how we approach it
(38:43):
differently as we come out of the COVID era andwork again in a more sector based format.
Do you use, other than the partners, andperhaps other architects, do you use BD
representatives?
Like, do you use people that are specific roleis like, hey.
Just go develop some business.
(39:03):
Yeah.
We have specific BD people.
They are strategy and business developmentleaders, and they are in all of our markets,
and they are assigned specific sectors.
So in the Denver market, we hired a man who isconnected to workplace, housing, and science,
(39:31):
and that's where his focus is.
So I get about a third of his time and workhard to get as much as I can.
So so he helped me develop business in thismarket.
We have people in all location.
We have an outstanding they're all great,actually.
We have a really strong business developer inthe Detroit market.
(39:52):
We have a really strong business developer inthe Dallas market, and they are shared among
sectors, but that's all they do.
And then the sector leader role in our companyis really defined as a seller doer.
So they are helping to sell, but they're alsovery much involved in projects.
(40:14):
So the business developer, depending on theirlevel of experience and their capabilities,
their job is really to get people to the frontdoor.
Bring people to the front door, and then thesector leader can close the deal.
And we've got outstanding of examples of thathappening.
(40:36):
Most recently probably is in our SouthernCalifornia where we have San Diego and Los
Angeles.
We have a business developer in San Diego whogot sort of a lead from a civil engineer about
a big project.
They were already working with an architect, soit was kind of a long shot.
She brings this company to the front door, asector leader, and a good project architect
(41:02):
went to meet with them independently.
They've got very well prepared because of allthe intelligence that the business developer
was able to bring to the table, and they wentthere and sold that deal, and we won that work.
And they were, again, they were working with adifferent group, and they saw the value in
working with our group instead.
(41:23):
And it's been it's just a great story.
I I love that story.
I hold that story up to all of our businessdevelopers, Bring them to the front door, and
then the sector leaders will help you close thedeal.
And I like them to stay involved.
Some of them are very capable.
Some of them, meaning strategy and businessdevelopment leaders, to get through the
(41:47):
proposals and to, again, share the intelligencebecause they're out there.
They're out there talking to these people, andthey learn a lot about them as they're out
there.
And so they bring them back to, the the thebusiness or I'm sorry, the the sector leaders.
And the sector leaders are really subjectmatter experts in what they do.
(42:12):
So they can then get in front of them one wayor the other virtually or in person and really
close the deal.
It's great.
That we've seen similarly being more sectorfocused than location focused.
It's not that we throw location out, you know,out the door here, but being focused on
(42:34):
specific sectors helps one add value to thosepossible prospects.
When you know what's happening, you have a goodpulse on what's happening, and they need other
things that you don't offer, you you haveprobably a laundry list of things that you can
offer them that are just not direct.
Hey.
Let's do your architecture.
It could be like, oh, you need a specialtycontractor that you know that's in that
(42:54):
location that specifically does house orspecifically does k through 12.
Right?
So I can totally see the transition the twoyears ago transitioning into this, how that can
be very powerful for you and your businessdevelopment across the board.
Yeah.
Really true.
Very effective.
I I'm so pleased with the structure.
I I feel that it's a great hedge.
(43:16):
We've talked a little bit about this wheresince we're in nine sectors and housing's been
weak the last year or two as I as I've noted acouple of times out.
If you're if you're twisting the your ownknife, that's on you.
No.
That's a good point.
Right?
What am I gonna I'm not gonna go crawl in ahole and cry about it.
(43:37):
I'm gonna go out there and try and get it getit
That's right.
Take care of it.
Right?
However so a couple of our sectors have beenreally busy and very, very strong.
And the beauty of that is that while we havehad weaker sales in the short term, We've been
able to have some of our team members join thatother sector for a short amount of time to
(44:02):
support them instead of having to lay peopleoff.
And that's really positive and really helps theattitude of our team to, you know, not be
preoccupied with, oh my gosh, I don't see,housing work.
What's gonna happen to me.
As long as they're willing to jump into ahigher education project or a data center
(44:25):
project or a K 12 project, maybe for sixmonths, maybe for three months, maybe for one
month.
We have that kind of flexibility and it reallyhelps with retention and then, and we're very
deliberate about it.
So if we say we're going to offer a team memberup, first of all, we'll have a talk with that
team member.
(44:45):
Hey, this is what's happening.
You cool.
And they're like, yeah, I'm cool with that.
And so we, we get that set up And then with theother sector leaders, we're like, okay, this is
a two month gig.
Right?
I gotta have this person back in two monthsbecause we're projecting these three or four
opportunities.
And at least one of those is going to comethrough and I'm going to need this person back
(45:08):
on my team.
And we hold, you know, everybody accountable towhat we discuss and what we agree upon.
So that works great.
So, sharing people between business units,which is amazing idea.
Core values I think is some of the piece ofcohesiveness, especially if you've never met
the person.
Now you're flipping to a different businessbusiness unit, even if it's for one, two, three
(45:30):
months.
How do you make sure there's obviously nuanceand cohesion, right?
You kind of even mentioned doing differentthings because it's just the different cities
that you're, that you're coming from.
Look, I refer Chicago,
Four letter words as part of
my vocabulary, but that might not be so muchmaybe, from Dallas or some other part of the
(45:53):
country.
How do you help with that cohesion?
Wow.
That's a good question.
You know, part of that just has to be aperson's attitude and how flexible are they.
I think we can help prepare for a culture shockbetween Los Angeles and Dallas, for example.
(46:19):
And and there is a lot of communication withother sector leaders that might be in different
locations.
And even frankly, if you're in the same sectorand in a different location, you're you're
dealing with nuance to differences and culturalnorms that you have to adapt to.
(46:43):
Now does that is that good for a person?
Does that strengthen a person's overallcharacter or overall abilities?
Probably in some cases, maybe not so much inothers.
So we'll wanna check-in.
Hey.
How's it going in that sector?
Or how's it going working with the Dallas teamor how's it going?
And addressing it and addressing it all theway.
(47:05):
You know, we we have a culture ofcollaboration, which is really important.
So we don't, you know, ten years, I've I'vebeen working at HED, and I just don't see a lot
of black cape, you know, ego drivenpersonalities.
People and they're probably out there.
(47:27):
I mean, I don't know every last person.
I just think we have a culture of collaborationand empathy.
So when we have come from differentbackgrounds, different cultural norms, again,
I'll say, we can accept.
(47:48):
We may not agree, but we can accept and workwithin that ecosystem.
K.
And, you know, it's not perfect.
Sometimes there'll be a a bump in the road orthere'll be something that happens, and and
we're quick to address it quick to address itand talk talk it through and see if it doesn't
(48:08):
work.
We gotta make a change, then okay.
Or if we can make it work, that's even better.
I'm sorry.
I'll cut you off.
Well
No.
It's okay.
Why doesn't it work?
You know, in the instances why it doesn't work.
I guess I would say that perhaps it is based ona lack of flexibility for a person or a team or
(48:30):
a certain way of working together as a team.
That's what I would say.
Or, you know, and and so some places, like,let's say, I mean, Housers for the most part
are really passionate about the work they do.
You know, our whole thing is positive impact.
Our whole mission is around positive impact topeople, clients, communities that we work in.
(48:57):
I don't know what greater impact you could havethan creating home for someone.
On our affordable housing practice, some of ourtenants, some of the tenants that occupy our
buildings, their previous home was the street.
How could you have a more positive impact?
And if you've got a team member who's all aboutthat, providing homes for people or experiences
(49:26):
for people, because hospitality is also part ofour sector, Experiences, place making, things
that really impact people who use the spaces weoccupy.
And with all due respect, we have a very robustpractice in mission critical doing data
centers.
And the same philosophies apply.
(49:49):
If I take somebody out of the housing sectorwho is engaged in what I just talked about,
changing people's lives that way, and thenthey're going to a data center project.
They're still having that ability to impact,but it's much different.
(50:09):
And some might say you know, they would call meand say, Otis, when can I come back into the
housing sector?
And, again, every sector that we have and everyproject that we do is important, and we bring
the same attitude and the same energy to it, wejust have to deal with some of the nuances as
(50:35):
you identified, Will.
I mean, it's it's just something that you haveto put energy into and work with people.
So it is a conscious effort then for sure.
Yeah.
I think it's gotta be a conscious effort.
I'd love to talk more about this, but Justin, Ithink it's time for our last question.
(50:56):
Yes.
Absolutely.
Otis, if you could go back twenty years, whatadvice would you give?
Myself?
Yeah.
Yourself.
You go back twenty years.
You get to give yourself advice.
What would that be?
You know, I reflect on my life and my career,and there's always things that you might do
(51:18):
differently.
I have to say, I am really blessed.
I am happy.
I have had tragedy in my life.
I've had huge successes, and that is what lifeis about.
I would say, what advice would I give myself?
(51:42):
Don't ever stop growing.
Don't ever stop looking at different ways, atbetter ways.
Explore constantly.
I feel kinda like I do that.
I just feel that that's the best advice I couldoffer to myself.
Oh, it's powerful for sure.
(52:03):
The continuous improvement and curiosity pushus a long way as a society, just as in general
as in human beings.
So I love that.
You can't stop.
You can't stop growing.
You can't stop wanting to make a difference.
You can't don't stop innovating.
And when you get to be at my stage in yourcareer, there's one thing you always are
saying.
(52:24):
Keep the old man out.
Keep the old man out.
We got no place for the old man.
We have to get up and move and exercise andgive it all we got every day.
Awesome.
This has been a ton of fun.
If somebody wanted to get a hold of you, whatwould be the best way for them to do that?
(52:48):
Hed.design.
Go to hed.design.
You'll find all of our team members.
You could look up business leaders.
You'll find me, my email, my phone number.
Call me, reach out.
I'd love to talk to you about anything,architecture and design and housing.
(53:08):
Yes.
As a houser.
And is there anything else you'd like to tellthe people before we say our goodbyes?
I hope that you found some benefit in listeningto this talk and that you are committed to
doing high quality housing work and helping thecommunities where you're working.
Well said.
This has been a ton of fun, listeners.
(53:29):
I hope you had a good time.
I'm gonna throw all the show all the links andall that stuff, in our show notes, so look
there for that.
And until next time, adios.
Adios.
Thank you, guys.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(53:55):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(54:18):
And until next
time.
Keep building scale.
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