June 10, 2025 • 59 mins
Mark Davenport discusses his career journey in architecture, from intern to managing partner at SPS+ Architects. He covers the firm's leadership structure, managing transitions, and role fit challenges. The conversation delves into business operations, including EOS integration for efficiency and the firm's evolving focus and expansion. Mark outlines future growth through studio specializations and examines how contract types are impacting the industry. He highlights using culture index for team dynamics, strategic planning, and process automation. Emphasizing growth strategies and technology's role in scaling, the episode concludes with ERP implementation lessons and time management advice.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So I knew I wanted to kind of have a smallerownership.
And then once we started growing, it's like,okay, we're either going to have 12 partners
because we're four or five times the size thatwe ever were, or we're going have to change the
structure.
And so that's one of the things that we'vedone.
So now we have, we have an executive team, wehave an extended leadership team to try to help
(00:23):
manage the firm.
And it's a little bit different, but it stillis in a hands on way, because that's one thing
we didn't want to lose is partner involvementand really that kind of, that hands on
involvement.
Because I'm an architect and I still like beingan architect and I want to do that.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering and construction
(00:45):
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(01:05):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:28):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Today's guest is Mark Davenport.
He's the partner in charge at SPS plusArchitects, where he's been shaping learning
(01:52):
environments and communities for over twentyfive years.
Starting as an intern in 1999, Mark'sdedication and leadership have helped guide the
firm's growth while staying true to its corevalues.
We better the ball.
We listen.
We do what we say.
I'm gonna ask a lot of questions about those,Mark, so have that teed up for yourself.
They have partnered with over a 100 schooldistricts.
(02:12):
They'll bring safe, flexible, and inspiring Kthrough 12 educational spaces throughout
Arizona.
Mark is a registered architect and leadaccredited professional known for building
strong client relationships and advocating forsolutions that meet the needs of both students
and staff.
He leads projects with a focus oncollaboration, continual learning, and
innovation, ensuring every space supports longterm educational success.
(02:33):
And with all that said, Mark, welcome to theshow.
Justin, you're hired.
You could be my pitchman any day.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Like I said before we started, I'm allpersonality.
I just I just hit it hard, and then that thatworks out for me.
Look, I just got a job, Will.
That was pretty awesome.
There you go.
You can dual role here.
Exactly.
So, before you go into how you got an industryand everything, tell us about your core values.
(02:56):
I, I listed them all off.
Specifically the one, we better the ball.
What is, what, what does that mean?
So that's kind of like a sports analogy in whenit's like, let's, let's take what we have, or
maybe one of the clients that we've beenworking with and let's make it a little bit
better than what they had last time.
And sometimes it's a matter of, we don't wantto do exactly what they've been doing.
(03:16):
We want to try to push the envelope a littlebit and we definitely don't need to shoot for
perfection because then you never get done withanything either.
So let's
like,
let's find someplace in the middle and then seehow we can push that.
And we've done that with several differentclients in our history.
Like for example, you know, we'd like to dothis next generation learning environment
whenever we can.
(03:38):
And in some cases it's like, let's just makesure we have windows in every classroom.
That's a good start.
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes tons of sense.
So tell us how you got in the industry.
How did you become an architect?
So why did you become an architect?
Then tell us about SBS Plus.
For sure.
Yeah.
So, well, for, for the younger generation, theymight not, may not know the Brady bunch, but I
(03:59):
just thought Brady was like the coolest guyever.
I'm like, I'm going to do that.
But my mom still has a document that shows backin the grade where I said I was going be an
architect, but I'm sure lots of kids said theywere going to be an architect or a doctor a
fireman or a policeman.
But for me it was that.
And so I just got into mechanical drafting whenI was in high school and it was my wrestling
(04:23):
coach that was actually the drafting teacher.
So I was like, okay, I'll try this.
And I kind of liked it.
And so I just tried it at ASU and most of myfriends and family, like, what are you doing?
You're not an artistic guy, but, but I'vealways been a problem solver and it just kind
of kept on going.
I didn't even know what kind of architecture Iwanted to do.
(04:43):
And so I was placed as an intern as my, in myjunior summer, I went and studied abroad for
six weeks in Spain and Italy, came back, did myinternship.
I was just fortunate enough to be placed with afirm with great people that were doing great
projects and they were able to, you know, wewere small enough then that I worked side by
(05:04):
side with the owners and got great mentorshipand it was like, this is the best.
And it just kept on going.
Twenty six years later, I'm here.
Awesome.
So how do you go from intern to managingpartner?
That seems like, you know, you've lived theAmerican dream now.
Like you've done the thing.
Like tell us how what's the secret sauce tothat?
Don't sleep.
No sleeping?
(05:25):
Okay.
Check.
Don't sleep.
Work harder than everybody else.
You know, I don't know, man.
I think it really is it's a combination of ofof timing, of of having some luck.
Really, it is a lot of hard work and and quitelike, like just fortunate to have like found a
niche that really that, that I can like, amjust in sync with and designing schools.
(05:50):
And it's just, it was just like, I just reallyam lucky to good people, cool types of
projects.
And it just kind of worked out and lots of hardwork too.
It always the plan to become a managingpartner?
I knew that I was going to own whateverbusiness I was in.
I've always had leadership roles from a childgrowing up.
And so, and once I kind of decided architecturewas going to be my thing, that's like, yep,
(06:14):
I'll own my own firm.
I just don't know when or how or what thatlooks like, but I just knew it was going to
happen.
I was keeping it loose.
You had, you had a vision and didn't knowexactly how, but you got there.
So that's what matters.
Yeah.
And I was fortunate too, with my, with thefolks that I worked with back then, they always
said, Hey, if you want to be a partner in thisfirm, you can, and here's a, here's a path for
(06:37):
you.
Right?
And so that's actually something that I'velearned about myself that I think that
everybody else thinks that they have thatopportunity with my firm.
And I haven't done a good job of being thatsame mentor and leader to some of my other
younger up and coming professionals.
And this is something that's really come tolight within the last couple of years.
And so like shame on me, I better do a betterjob of that to make sure that my up and coming
(07:02):
team members here know that they have that sameopportunity here.
I love the candidacy.
One of our core values is being candid.
And so when you say that, you're, you're veryopen to say, hey, like I'm not perfect, right?
Like that's
Oh, I am not.
But knowing, right, which then leads to anotherone of our core values, which is continuous
improvement, which is, Hey, I know I'm notperfect, but yet I'm going to strive to try to
(07:25):
get at least 80% of the way there.
Better the ball, right?
That's better the ball.
There you go.
That all makes sense then.
So then what does leadership then look like?
So obviously you're the managing partner here.
Do you, do you have a full team?
Are they partners with you?
What does that look like?
Yeah, so I have one other business partner.
And so we're actually in a different model thanwhere we've been as traditionally, as a firm.
(07:48):
Our firm has always been relatively small,partner driven.
There's always been three to five partners.
At one point when I was brought in, there waseight of us.
And so for me, it was kind like growing up.
I had five brothers and sisters.
I'm like, there's no way I'm going to have
that many kids.
This is crazy.
And the same thing with the partnership.
I'm like, this is way too many people to beable to make some decisions.
(08:09):
Cause I, so I knew I wanted to kind of have asmaller ownership.
And then once we started growing, it's like,okay, we're either going to have 12 partners
cause we're four or five times the size that weever were, or we're going to have to change the
structure.
And so that's one of the things that we'vedone.
So now we have, we have an executive team, wehave an extended leadership team to try to help
(08:32):
manage the firm.
It's a little bit different, but it still is ina hands on way.
Cause that's one thing we didn't want to loseis partner involvement and really that kind of
that hands on involvement.
Cause I'm an architect and I still like beingan architect and I wanna do that.
So what is the breakdown between the executiveteam and the extended leadership team?
(08:54):
What's the differentiation and how is thatstructured throughout the firm?
Yeah, so a lot of this stuff is, and I'm stillfiguring some of this stuff out because again,
I'm an architect, I'm not a business owner.
I am an entrepreneur, but so we've got COO, Ihave a CMO on my executive team, my business
partner, Richard Begay is on our executive teamtoo.
(09:15):
And I had a CFO, but realized, okay, I don'tthink I need a full CFO.
So we have a controller that's in there nowtoo.
So there's the five of us on our executiveteam.
And then one of the things I realized as wecreated this executive team was, boy, I only
have my partner that's an architect in here andwe're an architecture firm.
So we need to have a little bit moreperspective on what, where the firm is going.
(09:38):
And so my extended leadership team is made upof the three studio directors that we have in
our office.
So a change that we made a few years ago was tocreate our office.
It was one big office trying to manage all thiswork.
And it was really hard.
And so we broke it up into almost like threesmaller offices.
So the head of each one of those small offices,each studio is in there on the executive, the
(10:03):
extended leadership team.
We have our director of constructionadministration and what's important about,
about him, John, is that he's involved with somany of our projects and he gets to see them
through construction.
So he's in front of our clients a lot more thaneven our architects during the design process.
(10:23):
So we have them we've got one of our businessdevelopment folks that that's in there because
they're out there too.
So we want to have a good pulse on what'shappening in the studio plus what's happening
in when our projects are under constructionplus while we're in our pursuits.
And then we have our HR manager that's in theretoo.
So and then recently we also added our BIMmanager because that's huge for our efficiency
(10:49):
and our production.
And he's a guy that knows where we need toreally kind of help make change.
So it's a really dynamic team of people thatcan really have some say into the direction of
the firm.
So I titled our executive team, the BOTS, whichis the business operations team.
Okay.
So we have bot and SET.
(11:10):
And so SET is our strategic execution team.
So it's almost like our executive team reportsto our extended leadership team because it's
like our strategic execution team, which arethe people boots on the ground, they can tell
us here's our struggles.
And now our executive team's job is to, whatcan we do to to either relieve these pressures
(11:33):
or put some things in place to help them dotheir jobs better?
So, okay.
A lot of pressures happen because of people.
Look, everything would be easy if peopleweren't part of the business.
Right?
Right.
Which means sometimes you have great fitpeople, and sometimes you have not so great fit
(11:53):
people.
Right?
And as much as you wanna plan, I heard thisphrase recently, I think people plan and God
laughs, I think is the term.
So we can plan all we want, but eventually someplans don't work out as well.
How do you manage that?
How do you know who to keep, who to hire, andpromote into leadership?
(12:17):
Boy, Will, you've really kind of tapped intosomething here for us.
Oh.
So we, we use the business operating systemcalled EOS, Entrepreneurial Operating System.
And one of their big things is they have anaccountability chart and work really hard on
right person, right seat.
And so we do a good job, think of hiring theright person.
(12:37):
And so that's kind of the cultural fit.
And so we make sure that we have the rightperson.
And if we, and if we, we work to find the rightseat and make sure that we have everybody in
their highest and best use.
And so when it comes to promoting people andtransitioning into other roles, we've done a
terrible job at it, like really bad.
(13:00):
And so, you know, when I said we created thesestudios and put some studio directors in place,
one of the things that we're going throughright now is, you know, I put one of my guys
there because he's one of the guy that says,whatever we're doing, give me the marching
orders and I'm gonna do it for you.
I'm gonna be that best guy.
Awesome.
The other guy, one of our, he's been herealmost as long as I have.
(13:23):
And so he knows all the history of our firm,but he can't juggle.
Right?
So have these people in these roles for abouteighteen months and then they kind of figure
out along the way, man, this is reallystressful.
And you know, for me, Mark, it was like, I hada good mentor by my side and said, here, go
figure it out.
And I could bounce things off of him.
(13:44):
And that's how I learned.
It's like everybody else can learn that waytoo, right?
No.
And so, so we're actually right now, I spentsome time these last, this of the year to find
out, let's really define what the studiodirector role is.
And then let's find out what does a trainingprogram really need to be to put somebody in
(14:04):
that place?
And so I've been developing that.
And so really now this month, we're going toroll out almost like an open call.
Who wants to be a studio director?
Cause two of the guys say, I want to get out ofthat role because they're not in the right
seat.
And so we want them to put them in a betterseat where they can be at their highest and
best use.
(14:25):
So we're kind of doing an open call.
And then I built what is like a trainingplatform for here are the things that you need
to be able to do and do well.
Like just by starting to write that out, it wasa pretty big move for us.
And so, so we did that and so I feel prettyconfident about that.
And so we got like a zero to three monthtraining, a zero to six month and a zero to
(14:49):
twelve month training program because justbecause we've got some, we might have some
people that have the overall qualities to runit.
They may not have the experience.
So, okay, let's build this program over twelvemonths and see when that, when that might
happen.
And there's, there's checkpoints along the wayto do that too.
So, so I'm pretty excited about that andgetting the right people in those places.
(15:12):
Kudos to your two studio directors that didn'tlet a title or ego get in the way of saying
like, Hey, this isn't the right seat for me.
Right?
Like, feel like that's, that's hard.
That's a difficult thing for people, you know,cause you, and you get put in a place and you
want to obviously do right and do good.
And you know, intentions are all high.
But if it's a seat that's just like, you'reonly at 70% capacity of what you could produce
(15:36):
if you were in a different seat, just simplybecause it's your magic, right?
Like, it's like, oh, if you get into that magicseat, the sky's the limit.
There's no, there's no stopping you.
So kudos to them for saying, Hey, like, I thinkthat there's a better seat for us.
Yeah.
And my COO is really amazing.
I hired him over two years ago now.
And my number one job was, Hey, I want youlisten to our architects and our designers and
(15:59):
to find out where their challenges are and likeconnect with them as people.
And at that, from there, we will learn how toplan better and be more efficient and things
like that.
And so fortunately he's built up a really goodtrust with our team so they can come to him and
say, I don't think I'm doing the best for myteam and have that conversation.
And so that's one of the, our best things thatwe have about our firm.
(16:23):
We have a culture of people that care andpeople that want to help each other.
And like, and that's what I hear from mostpeople after I've hired them.
They're like, this place is different thanothers.
Yeah.
You guys have crazy deadlines and all the otherthings like most other architecture firms, but
you care about each other and you try to dowhat's right for your team.
(16:44):
Love that.
So, you know, the care factor is superimportant when it comes to RPRS, right, so
you've got the right person, which in myopinion is harder to find than necessarily the
right seat.
How does a conversation like that come up?
(17:04):
Was it self where they came up to you or cameup to COO?
Or did you have to confront them and they go,yeah, actually?
It's like it's a combination of things.
Right?
So it's like, sometimes there's just thingsthat aren't working.
Right?
So in in one case it was six months ago thatone of the studios, invoicing was half of what
(17:27):
it should have been.
I'm like, what's going on here guys?
Or just, you know, one of the major roles of astudio director is communicating with the
client and the team.
And when I hear a lot from clients or teammatesthat are like, Hey, I'm just not quite sure
what's going on.
It's like, well, studio director is busyworking versus communicating.
Like that's the number one job.
(17:48):
We're there telling, we're telling people whatwe're doing, telling people what we're not
doing and setting the expectations and managethem.
So, you know, we actually recently had one withanother person that was in the director role
and it wasn't working.
And so have the conversation, it's like, Hey, Ithink this is going to be a better place for
you because you're the right person, but Ithink this is going to be a better thing.
(18:13):
And in that case, I'm not sure what got in theway.
And she was like, You know what?
I think I'm going to go try my chancessomeplace else.
And so unfortunately that happens sometimestoo.
And in this case that I'm talking about, thatcould have been because there was a few
transition when you're moving to the or theseat and they're like, you know, I don't think
(18:34):
I wanna go through this transition again.
So it could be that something that's tied tothat too.
But but, yeah, who knows?
It's a combination of things.
Those are tough conversations to have.
Do you I guess, what's the best word?
Do you hedge on those?
Right?
If if it's a key person, a key position,especially in leadership, right, do you hedge
(18:56):
or or do you have more of a hopeful strategyaround when you have that conversation?
You know, I typically have more of a hopefulconversation because one, you know, I and I
start them with, hey, do you think that this isworking?
Right?
Because it because if I don't think it'sworking, it's it's highly likely that the other
(19:17):
person, it's not working for them too.
Right?
And so if they're in a stressed out situationand I know that that that it's not working, so
I'm in a stressed out, let's figure out what'sgonna what do we need to do?
And in some cases, it's not with each otheranymore.
And in some cases like, can I, can I go helpyou find something else?
Because at the end of the day, I want people tobe happy in what they're doing.
(19:38):
And if they don't feel like they can do thathere, I can either help show them how they can
have that here or it is time to just part ways.
And in some cases, you know, my hope for thesethings drag on the situation longer than it
should.
And and like and that's probably one of myfaults that I gotta try to figure out, but
(20:00):
like, I've got a thing that like, nope, thisperson's a good person and we can make it work.
Okay.
Well, I definitely appreciate that insight.
I think that's tough.
And, you know, there's a you know, where doloyalties lie versus, you know, I wanna give
the person a chance versus, I guess, wherethey're just they're only doing 70% of where we
(20:24):
need them to be a 100%, you know, essentiallybe in their magic if or their zone of genius.
Are metrics the only way to recognize that?
You know, we're not the best with metricseither.
So I mean, in some
Love your candidacy, Mark.
I love the fact that you're like, I'm not gonnabullshit you.
Like, we're like, there are areas forimprovement.
(20:44):
I mean, I wish we had some good ones that I canbe like, yes, that's a good one.
But they're just not that great.
And so in some cases like, and I know thisisn't good for scaling up my business is like
me having a pulse on things.
And I, as we scale up, I just can't have apulse on everything.
So right now it's my time.
And so that's, that's the only way for me toreally kind of have it.
(21:06):
At the end of the day, like for example, we'rehaving a transition with our business
development team right now.
And it's like, yeah, we're not converting someof the work, but I know that the relationships
are there.
I don't know why it's not happening.
And some of my, my own faults were like, yeah,but that guy and he probably had this.
(21:29):
And so I, I can give maybe too much grace insome cases versus, versus really trying to hold
accountable to to some deliverables.
And, know, well, I like the guy.
So, yeah, we'll give him a break.
And then two years later, it's like, shit.
We're still not getting anywhere.
You know?
I, I feel like it's always a balance because Ido think KPIs are important.
(21:51):
I inherently believe that, but I also thinklike, did you set people up for success?
Right?
Like that's the other question.
Right?
So it's like, it's like, well, they're nothitting what I want them to hit.
So that's a problem.
But at the same time, have I given them all thetools necessary to then hit that number,
whatever it is, if it's a design number, ifit's a business development number, what have
you.
It is a balance, I think, that, because I thinkthe best business does have a human piece to
(22:17):
it, where it's like, you're a human being,they're a human being.
Like there has to be understanding to thosethings.
And it is a balance.
So I would give yourself more credit than maybeyou're giving.
You obviously have grown.
Like you have, you obviously have been able todo scaling.
Like, you have you've been doing these things.
You've broken up a multi tier, executive andthen leadership team or the bot and set, as I
(22:38):
love.
And so it's you are setting things up indifferent ways.
So, you know, give yourself a pat on the back,not all, doom and gloom.
Yeah, no, you're right.
And I appreciate that too.
And one of the, one of the, my biggestrealizations this year was just for me to try
to kind of document what some of thoseexpectations are.
Cause I talk a lot, right?
(22:59):
And I can talk about it, but it's like, but Ialso talk fast.
So it's like, let's try to get them documentedso that we can at least have it there and I can
refer back to it.
It's like, oh yeah, I didn't say that.
And so that's probably one of my, the thingsthat I'm working on the most this year is
trying to document some of these things just sothat, that the path is a little bit clearer for
(23:21):
somebody.
Cause you tell somebody something, they'regoing retain so much of it.
So it's like, if they can at least go back now,will they go back?
That's a whole nother question, but at leastthey could.
And it's there and I can like, hey, refer tothis please and then we'll talk again.
Sounds like an AI idea.
Have someone someone next to you on yourshoulder, so to speak, that can listen to
everything that you're saying, haveinstantaneous recovery, memory recovery, and
(23:44):
then can
what did he say again?
You know, someone else asks.
Well, you know what?
My best friend has been these past couplemonths is just chat GPT.
It's like, okay, I'm saying it, I'm just gonnaturn on the microphone and then let it
transcribe it for me.
And I can be like, let's put this into anoutline form.
It's like the best thing ever for me to be ableto start documenting it.
(24:07):
That is can you give an can you give a moreconcrete example of how you're how you're using
it?
Without obviously really revealing too much,but hopefully, it's not something super
secretive.
Well, just like this, like the studio directorthing, you know, like, I started spouting off
at our quarterly planning meeting.
It's like, these are the most important thingsthat a studio director needs to do.
(24:28):
All right, let's just put that in chat GPT.
Hey, can you build me a little outline aroundthis?
Okay.
And then the ball starts rolling, right?
And they're like, okay, yeah.
Oh yeah, I gotta remember to put this part in,this part in.
So the biggest thing for me now is let's makesure I dedicate some time to do that work.
Cause it's so easy to get caught up in thewhirlwind of like, I got these emails and I got
(24:50):
these things, but what's the, the, the, I'm a,I'm a big Stephen Covey guy and the seven
habits.
And so it's like, what's that quadrant two workthat you got to do?
Yeah, there you go.
Perfect.
I love it.
So it's like, I just never dedicate enough timeto that quadrant two stuff.
And it just, it's setting us back from reallycontinuing to scale and and helping my team.
(25:13):
And I and that's just what I I just that's myfocus of of 2025.
It's awesome.
Alright.
So process, right?
So process is important.
EOS would tell you processes everything.
As as you mentioned, you're an EOS company.
What are processes that you're currently tryingto build or that you have built more recently?
So, I mean, that's the biggest one.
(25:35):
Other one actually that's pretty huge for meand to kind of getting out of like a lot of the
day to day stuff is our fee proposals.
Cause I've got so much up here and all thenuances, like if I were to build a decision
matrix of an if then what now, you know, itwould be as big as this wall back here.
(25:57):
Right?
So it's like, no, that's not going to makesense.
So I'm trying to build that over this nextquarter is building out, okay, what does this
framework look like?
And I'm building it off of a sample project.
And then we can start to list some of thethings that could happen, because again, you
can't really do that in a way that will be easyto kind of go back to and refer to, but I'm
(26:22):
gonna start with kind of this outline form withsome examples, and then we can start to build
on it with a few other kind of example typeprojects.
Trying to create,
so trying to create your framework of decisionmaking, so that someone else can follow it, And
frameworks are the best because you have someloo you should have some loose, you know,
(26:43):
abilities within that framework.
So it's not necessarily left or right.
It's some somewhere maybe in the middle, butthe major pieces.
Right?
This is a hard no.
This is a hard yes.
This is gonna cost way more if it's done thisway.
Right?
This is gonna cost a lot less if it goes thisway.
Having those frameworks and then writing itout, super helpful because then it helps get
(27:05):
everyone on the same page that doesn'tnecessarily understand your process or hasn't
done this for thirty five years.
So do you do you try to make it perfect theround?
No.
No.
No.
No.
I always say version one.
This is version one, guys.
So version one.
At what point do you feel like it's good enoughthat you can publish it sort of out in the open
(27:26):
where you feel comfortable enough that anyoneelse following it, this should do.
Right?
There might still be some mistakes in it.
I understand.
But at what point do you say, yep, this is goodenough to start following?
You know, that's a good question, Will.
And I'm trying to be better at that because I'mgood with, like, releasing my chicken scratch.
Right guys?
This is good.
Right?
Go.
(27:46):
And so I remember our version of ourcompensation matrix, and it was so complicated
and it was so like precise that it caused somuch like issues within my office.
And I'm like, my gosh, we're just trying toprovide a guideline.
And I kept on saying, this is just a guideline.
So I'm like, okay, I have to keep saying this.
(28:09):
The matrix needs to show this.
Right?
So after two years, I'm like, I need to dothis.
And so I kind of reworked it and I'm like, Idon't feel good about it.
So, so I've been a lot more hesitant on justpushing things out the time.
And so I really worked hard on simplifying it,making it something that can that is legible.
(28:30):
And then and then what I do, novel concept isshare it with my leadership team and get some
feedback.
Oh,
yeah.
Buying in buy in from leadership teamdefinitely helps, especially if they're the
ones that ultimately are gonna have to eitherteach it or sort of distribute it amongst their
studios.
That totally makes sense.
(28:51):
Well, that was like the thing.
It's like I was telling these the guys, hey,here's what you do, but none of them could
kinda distribute the information downstream.
I'm like, what's going on?
I'm like, it's because none of them are owningit.
Not because they didn't have any authorship init.
Right?
And so it's like, okay.
So it's like, you know, painfully, that's howwe've learned some of our most most of our best
(29:11):
lessons is is the hard way and all the the thescars that we have to prove from it, you know?
But but we have some really good stuff as aresult of it.
Well, I love hearing about the progress as wellas the candor on that is a work in progress.
You know, when we talked before, I wannabecause I think this heavily affects process.
(29:37):
What was the breakdown in your firm's work andhas that changed since you've become managing
partner?
So we've always been a K-twelve firm.
I'd say back in the day we were a majority of,it was probably 80% school work and now it's
probably 60%.
(29:57):
And I would say 80% of our work kind of back inthe day was in rural communities and 20% was in
the metropolitan area.
So we've switched that to probably be 80% inthe Metropolitan Phoenix area and 20% rule
because I don't ever want to lose that becauseI don't know.
There's just there's something about working inour rural communities.
(30:20):
They appreciate the work that you do versus,sometimes in the valley, it's like, okay, what
have you done for me lately?
Somebody else is calling me.
I'm going to try them out.
So it's like, okay, sometimes it feels like acommodity commodity.
And I just know that we provide a betterservice than our competitors.
And it's like, well, you guys are reallymissing out and you should appreciate this good
(30:43):
stuff that we're doing too.
Right?
So, so that's probably some of the biggershifts.
And think another thing that, that when Istarted versus where we are today is we were
really a service based firm.
And so you weren't going to jump on our websiteand see any sort of award winning work.
And so it's like, we are architects, we do wantto design cool things.
(31:07):
And so we kind of went a little bit too much onthe design side and some of our clients were
like, Hey, what about this balanced approachthing?
And so I think that's where we are today, wherewe have a really good mix of, of some high
design, but, but also with that serviceapproach.
And one of the things that I talk to ourclients about a lot is it's like, you don't
(31:29):
have the budget to do cool shit everywhere, butlet's find out where, where that really money
should be spent on your project, whether it'sthe entry or whether it's the common space and
let's put it there and then let's still workwithin the budget and the schedule that you
have.
The trick is to always make the band roomreally cool as a former marching band kid.
(31:50):
What's the breakdown of the different studios?
Do have three separate studios or, you know,three separate studios?
What's that breakdown?
So one is in Tucson, so that was a pretty easy,easy break in.
And so they, they handled most of the SouthernArizona work, but, but also other projects
across the valley.
I try not to put them on too many things inFlagstaff, but, it does happen that way
(32:11):
sometimes.
And so I would say in the Tucson office, alsohave a, have a, probably a heavier focus on
higher education.
And then also some of the multifamily work thatwe do and maybe a little bit more commercial.
And then the two studios that we have here arepretty evenly split.
One is the main focus is K-twelve with a littlebit of sprinkling of other things.
(32:35):
And then the other studio is probably afiftyfifty like healthcare, and commercial, and
then K-twelve.
K-twelve is still kind of the big push.
Everybody's got to kind of do that K-twelvepiece.
Think that's part of how we deliver our servicealso is really how we work with our K-twelve
(32:56):
clients, which is really an over service.
Hey, we're going to over communicate.
We're going to do everything you need until youtell us to pull back.
And some of our commercial clients see how thatis.
And we can't charge the same because, know,it's a heavier intensity of an involvement on
our K-twelve.
So some of our commercial clients don't want topay for it.
(33:18):
Right?
So we figure out what that balance is, but alot of our commercial clients just aren't used
to that type of like hands on involvement.
So they really like it.
That's so what's the vision?
Obviously you you're K-twelve that's, that'sthe bread and butter that that's not going
anywhere, but you have these three studios isthe idea to eventually break them off more
(33:40):
regionally or is it more, no, like we are goingto push for that medical space.
So we're going to have a studio that is reallymore dedicated to that or commercial, whatever
that breakdown is.
Is there a vision that you have for where thesestudios go in the next three to five years?
You know, I haven't thought of it in thatfashion.
I mean, I still like thinking of them as littleoffices and in each little office will have
(34:04):
their different specialties that they do.
I know my competitors, they do have like ahealthcare studio and the different market
sectors and it probably makes sense.
Right.
But also, I mean, I kind of keep thinking abouthow it was for me when I was growing up and I
like doing lots of different things.
And when I talk to our staff, they don't wantto just do one type of an architectural
(34:27):
project.
So I think having that flexibility, even thoughit does hurt our efficiency in some ways, I
think it just provides for a better career forthe people that we have.
Yeah.
And balancing that efficiency with keepingpeople around, right?
Like there's an inherent value that comes withthat different, you know, just essentially a
different school of thought.
(34:48):
Yeah.
Didn't think about it like that, but yeah, it'sa good idea.
That's why
I do it.
That's why you hired me, Mark.
So let's talk a little bit.
Are you still doing any architecture workyourself?
I am, but but not as much.
And like the the amount that I'm doing, like,for example, like we have, we got a project at,
(35:09):
at one of our schools and my K-twelve architectguy he's doing his thing.
And so I talk with him about, you know, beforethe meeting, Hey, what are our expectations?
What do we want to try to accomplish with thismeeting?
And then here are constraints of the project.
Let's try not to go outside of these things topromise something that we can't deliver because
then walking that back is really, really hard.
(35:30):
And then after the meeting, okay, here's whatwe have.
And then I'll look at progress and then we'llkind of have a little design charrette and I'm
like, let's kind of do this with the building.
Or, you know, there was a curved component ofthe building, but they had a pretty tight
budget.
It's like, you know what, we're going to bespending a lot more money on the cool curvy
thing versus let's make this rectangular andlet's, we can get a little bit more square
(35:55):
footage in there for the same kind of a costwhen you're looking at it.
And so, you know, my architect was like, butthey really like this curve.
I'm like, let's bring them the option next timeto see if they want this smaller building
that's got these curves in it or a rectangularbuilding that's got a little bit more space and
flexibility.
And, you know, I'm not the biggest fan ofcurved buildings because you can't put
(36:16):
furniture in there.
Okay, neat.
What are you going to put in the corner?
There is no corner.
Okay.
So, you know, so we did bring that to them andof course they went with the simpler shaped
building so they could have more space.
And so it's things like that.
And then it's like, it was an athletic facilityand it's like, Hey, did we get a training room
(36:37):
in there?
Because you got to have the training room.
So just helping make sure that nothing kind ofslips through the cracks and we're thinking
about all of the potential aspects.
And it's like, the training room example, well,didn't ask for a training room.
Yeah, but they may not have known to ask for atraining room.
So that's our job is to, while we're puttingthings on paper, flush out all of those ideas
(36:59):
because they'll come up with that idea underconstruction, and then we have to figure out
how to go fit it in there.
Like, we have to do that on the drawing boardsearly on.
It's a lot cheaper than when you already haveconstruction material on the on-site.
Cheaper for to do to build it.
It's cheaper for us to design it.
Right?
Everything.
Fresh, you know, clean slate versus, I'm nowtrying to do an addition or a rework.
(37:22):
Yep.
Yep.
So this is something that we've talked aboutwith a few firms.
Wanted to get your perspective on sort of yourexperience with the different type of
contracts, the different sort of contracttypes, and where you're seeing the industry
going.
Like, with the construction kind of contract?
Or
(37:42):
Yeah.
So the fee structure based on a percentage,based on construction costs, straight time
materials, you know, stuff like that.
Yeah.
A lot of the stuff that we do, I really try todo it based off of a cost of construction.
Because at the end of the day, that's what'sgoing to help inflation for me.
Like, I don't care what my hourly rate is.
If we're keeping up with the cost ofconstruction, it's going to keep our firm
(38:03):
fluctuating with whatever the times are likethat.
So, in some cases it's like, and we do that alot in our K-twelve world and the multifamily
world, it's a cost per door.
So it's like, okay, and we scale that basedoff, we got this interesting matrix that says
if it's a smaller project with smaller doors,that's going to be a higher cost per door.
(38:25):
Then we look at the complexities and howevermany amenities they're going to have.
So that goes into our matrix.
But then in that case, it's like, okay, everycouple of years, we're going have to increase
that cost per door because it's, there's noother way to adjust for inflation and the same
thing with an hourly rate.
And at the end of the day, whenever you'redoing like a time and material or an hourly
rate, guess at how long it's going to take.
(38:49):
Excuse me.
It's really hard to guess how long you thinkit's going to take.
So I always try to go back to the cost ofconstruction as one way to check to see is my
fee going to be right.
And then, and so at the end of the day, we canbuild our fee however the client wants to see
it, but I'm going to use some of my time testedthings to, to be able to feel good about it.
(39:13):
And the other one is we're typically a certainpercentage of the total fee, like the, the, the
engineer component of our fee, of our total feeis going be anywhere between 3040%.
And so I'll, I'll, I've got two or threedifferent ways to kind of back check my number
to make sure it's going to go okay.
And then, and then, hey client, Mr.
(39:34):
Client, whatever you want to use, we'll signthat contract.
The final authority on, checking numbers?
I am right now, which is why I said earlier on,it's like, that's, that's my big thing to, to
try to document.
So I can really kind of hand that off.
And I've, I've, I've been, I've been trying todo it in which is essentially in a, hey, here,
(39:57):
here's how we do it this time and workingdirectly with the people that are building
these fee proposals and like, boy, it's been acouple of years now.
They're not, it's just not coming nature tothem, but you know, they're, they've got 10
other things that they're working on and it'snot their biggest thing.
And in some cases it's like, do they remember,hey, this is how Mark built it?
(40:17):
Probably no.
Mark just said to do this, so this is whatwe're doing.
Right?
So, so that's my bigger thing.
And I also had a, you know, I had my accountingteam that was driving these fee proposal
meetings and it's like, yes, I I know.
Hey.
Hey.
Where were you two years ago, Will?
That that's like that's like never the
(40:40):
other it's like the other learning lesson.
Never have lawyers negotiate business deals.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So, and so the and they don't really know howto do it either.
So it's like, okay, so we we switch theresponsibility to to the architects, but then I
have to have somebody that is continuing tostay on top of my architects because one of the
(41:01):
good things about my production staff and myarchitects is they are a projects first team.
So it's like, we're going to work on ourprojects and deliver a good set of drawings and
good designs Everything else will happen later.
Like billing, oh, later.
The next project, oh, later.
I don't want to do that.
So now it's like, now we have to have anaccountability system to make sure that they do
(41:25):
follow-up and track on these things to helpmake sure they get done.
A proposal doesn't sit there for three weeksbecause we're waiting on something.
It's like,
ugh, no.
So Losing momentum sucks, especially if it'sdetailed work that needs to go, go into it.
I understand.
Details are important because that's wheremargin is.
Yeah, for sure.
(41:45):
And so we use culture index.
It's one of our, there's many different thingsto utilize.
And so most of my architects are a high Dperson, which is like, they need a lot of data
to be able to kind of move forward and make adecision.
In many cases, when you're putting the peopletogether, you don't have much and you have to
make some guesses at things and you say, here'sthe guess that I'm taking.
(42:09):
I'm going to put this down on paper.
And then we know the basis of what the proposalis.
My high detail guys and gals, that does notwork with them.
I am a low D guy, like let's say this is theeven line.
I'm way over, I'm off the screen when it comesto how much detail I need.
And most of my architects are like right heretowards this side over here.
So it's like, so many times I can frustratethem because I'm like, we don't need much.
(42:33):
Let's go, go, go.
And they're like, we need so much more.
That's very funny.
Her COO, high detail as you could imagine as aCOO would be.
So I remember many times having conversationswith her and thinking in my brain, like, why
the hell do you want the like, why do you needme to give you more?
I like, I already know the decision.
(42:53):
I know the path we need to go.
Come on.
Like, let's let's go.
Like, let's do this thing.
But then we took took one of the tests.
It wasn't that one, but it was another one.
And it literally was like so obvious.
It's like, oh, yeah.
I'm a four and you're an eight.
So like, the the distance about details that wehave in between each other is enormous.
I'm a two, by the way.
(43:14):
I've
take I've taken Culture Index.
I've actually taken it multiple times overyears, completely forgetting about it, and then
doing it again,
and I get the exact
damn result.
Exactly the same every time.
Like down to down to the point.
I was like, this is scary accurate.
So I come out as a philosopher.
(43:35):
That says anything to you.
Oh, yes.
You do know.
You do know.
I'm a rainmaker.
Okay.
So we're in the same we're very similarcategories.
So the low D, high high A.
Yep.
And I forget what the other I forget what theother what the other ones are.
Well, highly autonomous, highly social, canmultitask really easily and do not need very
(43:56):
much detail before making any sort ofdecisions.
Okay.
Dangerous type.
Dangerous type.
All gas, no brake.
Uh-huh.
So hence hence my, like, yeah, I'll issue thisthing to my entire company, and then they all
go haywire with, like, what is this?
It's just a guideline, not for my ID people.
(44:16):
Yeah.
My I've been told that I like to create chaos.
And so our COO has to tame chaos, and everyonelooks over at me when so I'm not allowed to be
in operations.
I got fired from operations, and that's why I'mCEO.
So firing firing yourself from the day to dayduties, I'd say that's a good way of putting
(44:39):
it.
You know, once the fees once the sort ofcurrent process fee proposal is done, what's
the next big thing?
Oh boy, that's a good one.
I think at that point, I will start to work onsome, some regional growth plans for us because
we do have those opportunities out there andit's, and it's been, it's been on that horizon,
(45:01):
but it's like, there's still a lot of work thatwe're not winning here.
And I want to tackle that.
And so so I think we can one, we can start totake on a little bit more of that.
And I, and you know, the studio director thingis, is happening better also for us.
I think that's kind of happening at the sametime.
And so, and I think that's going to help myteam because I, cause I'm also in the day to
(45:24):
day, a little bit of making sure that our cashflow is still there and our, our revenue is
still there and our billings are still there.
So I think I'm hoping that getting the rightpeople in there and planning our workflow
better is going to help automate that a littlebit.
So automating some more of those things arecritical, critical because I have the capacity
(45:45):
to jump into any other growth other than whatwe're in right now.
And so I think that's probably where my nextbig thing is because a big thing that that's
becoming harder and harder is my competition'sgetting better and better.
And so I definitely don't want to fall to thewayside of I'm going take the scraps because
(46:07):
these guys keep kicking my ass, you know?
And so that's another thing that we're kind ofworking on at the same time to maintain our
competition and that might mean to grow more sothat we have a better resume, more kind of R
and D capacity to show that we're experts inthe fields that we're in.
(46:28):
And it seems like that's kind of where ourmarketplace is going.
So, so as I do that, then we can start to lookat what, what additional growth means.
And I think it is now in a regional type of away.
Well, allows you to have more of that time onthe business, right?
When you
talk about in the OS where it's like, are youworking in the business or on the business?
And like doing all the things you justmentioned is like, well, are all on the
(46:51):
business.
That's not the, I need to deliver this projectby this timeline, or I need to go through this
change order or whatever is happening on theday to day.
That's the, Hey, like how do we make sure thatwe're competing at a high level with our
competition?
Does that require us to grow to get that R andD support or how much time of the bot or set
(47:12):
can, put towards on the business compared to inthe business roles that they obviously have to
take care of as well.
So it's interesting.
Grow to grow essentially, right?
Like that's the idea.
Like I need to grow.
I need to hit this next thing or, or we call itlike early hire, like hire a role that's
earlier than I maybe need it, but it'll growinto that and it'll speed up the growth for the
(47:34):
company.
You know, what's funny about that.
I was talking with a business consultant aboutthat and he's like, so I bet you're a very
conventional business owner.
I'm like, Oh, I don't know.
Like I do a lot more risky things than myformer partners do.
Like my former partners would count the coffeegrinds before they'd order more coffee.
(47:54):
Right?
I'm like, Order as many cake cups as you want.
We're going to be great.
So I'm like, oh yeah, I'm such like a risky guyhere and we go with the seat of our pants.
So this business consultant was telling me,he's like, well, I bet you hire when you can
foresee a need or you're not hiring to grow,you're hiring because you have a busy workload
and you care about cashflow and care aboutpaying people bonuses at the end of the year?
(48:18):
And I'm like, well, yeah.
He goes, yeah, it's a pretty conventionalbusiness owner.
I'm like, okay, so I guess I'm not a very riskyguy willing to risk at all for growth.
But one of our strategies is when people ask meabout what our growth plan is, it's like, want
to, we want to work on the types of projectsthat we want to work on and work with the
people that we want to work with.
(48:38):
And so that's probably not the best growthstrategy at the end of the day, but it's, it's
one that we have.
And it's one I think on why we can keep goodpeople too.
Cause we're not going to make them work onthings or with people that are just crappy.
Who wants to do that?
Not me.
You know what?
Says a lot about strategy.
That is definitely a strategy.
(48:59):
It is.
And that works.
Like, We call that niching, or niching forthose that wanna be politically correct, in
terms of grammar.
But niching is a great way to help go, well,this doesn't work for us as a client.
And this all you know, it's a good way to sayno.
(49:19):
And a good, you know, so where do can you sayyes and succeed?
Right?
Which is awesome.
Right?
So it gives you leverage, in what you're doing.
There is a scale to that.
Speaking of scale, how do you leveragetechnology, you know, to help you build scale
in your business?
(49:41):
That's another thing that we're we're embarkingon right now too.
We're, you know, we've learned over the overthe years that we can't bring on a technologi a
tech a technology tool to help with anythingunless we have our processes mapped.
Like,
I know it's like, let's bring this in and it'sgoing to fix everything.
(50:01):
No, it's not.
And so, so we, right now we have an accountingsoftware called Azure and we've got a different
CRM called Uninet.
We've got a different operations softwarecalled Wrike and they all kind of work.
And so we're embarking now on a six monthjourney to kind of go to an ERP within the AEC
(50:21):
space.
It's like, you know, you try not to get buyinto, oh, it does all these things.
And it's like, if it does all these things,then it doesn't do one thing great.
Right.
It's like it has to do our accounting systemlike the best because we, what, when we have
now is just garbage.
And then secondly, it has to help us plan andlike the minimalist way of planning out a
(50:44):
project.
And then like we have to have a way to put someleads in and be able to follow-up on them.
And so it's like, okay, we're going to kind ofthrow all our eggs in one basket.
So it's kind of scary.
So a novel thing that we did this time was wehad a little test kitchen of different people
throughout our office that can kind of go inand play with this software and see, give our
analysis, here's where things aren't workingfor us.
(51:05):
Here's where we think we need to go.
And we tested out several different things overthe last nine months.
It's like, okay, I think it's time to pull thetrigger on this.
So there's a heavy financial commitment to itand, and just really shit the pucker factor of
like, I hope this works.
Well, I mean, did you create communities?
(51:29):
Sorry.
Go ahead.
Did you create any type of, like, communities?
You know, essentially, you said test pilot.
So probably had someone in the biz dev side,someone on the finance side, someone, in the
operations side that all had to test thesedifferent components of whatever ERP or
software that you're looking to.
Do you do it as individual individuals?
Or did you do it as more than individuals?
(51:51):
Yeah, more than individuals, like on the, onthe operations side, we had a studio director,
a project manager, and then a job captain.
So they could kind of see all sides of it andlike how they're going to work within it.
And then a couple of accounting people and thenactually more than a couple of accounting
people, because it started off with just beingin the accounting software.
(52:12):
And what, three years ago, four years ago, wewere just so done with our accounting software
and I would just turn it over to my CFO to gofind something new.
And she did, and we started implementing it.
And two years later, it was never implementedbecause it was just going to be so dang
complicated.
Spent a lot of money, time and effort and justpulling the plug on it, throwing it out.
(52:35):
Nope, not going to happen, which is hard.
And, you know, and we started a new, this isour CRM that we have now, still not fully
utilized kind of expenses, still a little bitclunky, went through the trend.
Nope.
Toss that away too.
We're going to throw all in because we didfinally get some buy in from the people that
(52:56):
are going to be working on it and that like,yes, this is going to do what are the pros and
cons from what we have now?
Because it is expensive too, right?
And so, yeah, so it's some of that learningprocess of trying to figure it out with not
just one person, which is what I had done inthe past too.
So let's get a group of people that can jump inand have some say, not just, yes, this is going
(53:19):
to work or not, Give me some pros and cons onon on on it or going not going with it.
Well, you definitely brought about some goodlearning lessons.
Something that I think we could if you were tojust one learning lesson, because, you know,
it's sunk cost fallacy, what's a learninglesson that you would take, you know, in terms
(53:41):
of you already talked about, you know,involving more people, but you had one person
before.
Right?
That that was the CFO that was and then tooktwo years, and then you you decided not to
implement.
So what's a learning lesson from that?
I I mean, like we said, I think having a acommunity or or committee of people to vet it.
(54:03):
And, you know, I'm not a micromanager at allbecause my D is very low.
Remember that's off the screen there.
And so it just, that's just not my style.
So, so one, I try to be hands off, but I'verealized too that like, I still got to have my
hands in there a little bit to be able to knowthat we're vetting it, how we're vetting it,
(54:24):
and that, and that it is going to be the rightsolution and that we've tested it out enough
and really getting the, really getting the buyin because I've been trying to preach certain
things for so long and it just doesn't stick.
So whenever we can get buy in and have it besomebody else's thing, like, can't remember
the, way it was managing people from whatmatters.
(54:47):
I read it on my, my annual retreat this year.
And one of the things that they talked aboutwas don't give somebody their standard
operating procedures, or don't tell somebodywhat their job job is.
Have them tell you, have them write it down.
So then they've got the buy in and then youguys can build it together.
And if you continue to do that, that person andthat role will own that for for as long as they
(55:13):
have it.
So it's like, yeah, it sounds like a little bitmore work, but but, boy, there's no other
better way to create that buy in.
Yeah.
The results the results are so drasticallydifferent when you get buy in.
Justin?
Yeah.
I was gonna say my my thing is like, boy, if Icould start this all over again, if I had all
this stuff when I started, that'd be great.
But man, it would not be as much fun.
(55:34):
Right?
Well, that actually leads right into our lastquestion very beautifully, which is if you
could go back twenty years, Mark, what advicewould you give yourself?
Yeah.
Well, you know, the one of the things that Idid the this past I'm in a men's group called
Junto, right?
And one of the things that we really spent sometime on is where do you want to be spending
(55:58):
your time?
What, where do you think you're going to be inyour highest and best use?
And so for me, like I was able to put it intothree buckets, right?
I like being an architect.
And so I want to make sure I spend time andfocus time on that.
I like driving our business growth and I likemeeting new people and being a part of that
business development team.
(56:19):
So growing our business, so like SPS plus is aproject that I like working on.
I like building projects and I like peopleprojects.
And so finding out where you want to spend yourtime and then being really diligent about
spending your time in those areas and notgetting caught up in the whirlwind because
there's so many distractions every single daythat how can you be diligent to spend your time
(56:41):
in those areas to be purposeful, and do thethings that you want to do.
And that's where I think you have the biggestresults, the greatest happiness and things like
that.
It's the place where people are blind to,right?
Everybody has goals and has aspirations and allthese things, but it's the, what are you saying
no to, because you only have so much time to dothese, these things or these goals, these, you
(57:05):
know, buckets.
Right?
You can only I get so much of it.
So there's a lot of asks that happen every dayfor everybody that if you stay true to your
buckets and say like, does it belong in one?
If not, I gotta say no to.
And a difficult thing to do, but if mastered, Icompletely agree with you.
You're you're living your best life.
Yep.
Totally.
Awesome.
(57:26):
This has been tons of fun.
A lot a lot of excitement, lots of nuggets.
I loved I love the candor across the board.
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,Mark, what's the best way for them to do that?
Well, my you can jump on our website and findme, but I'm a I'm only a text away.
Am I allowed to give my phone number out?
Because like Yeah.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
602522190.
(57:48):
I've had it since I was 18 years old.
And so I've had it forever, but really like Ilove talking to people.
People ask for architectural advice.
I can pay it, nope, because sometimes if it'sjust a two minute conversation, I'm happy to
share with you the knowledge that I havebecause people have done it with, for me, my
entire career and I wanna continue to pay thatforward.
(58:10):
I love that.
I will throw that as well as the website inyour show, so all in the show notes.
And is there anything else you'd like to tellthe people before we say goodbye?
No, this
has been super fun, and Justin, we'llappreciate the time that you've given me here
today.
And if you need any sort of architecture help,come and find us because we're the best out
there.
Love it.
Love it.
Love it.
(58:30):
Love it.
This has been a blast to your listeners.
So until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(58:52):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(59:14):
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
So I knew I wanted to kind of have a smallerownership.
And then once we started growing, it's like,okay, we're either going to have 12 partners
because we're four or five times the size thatwe ever were, or we're going have to change the
structure.
And so that's one of the things that we'vedone.
So now we have, we have an executive team, wehave an extended leadership team to try to help
(00:23):
manage the firm.
And it's a little bit different, but it stillis in a hands on way, because that's one thing
we didn't want to lose is partner involvementand really that kind of, that hands on
involvement.
Because I'm an architect and I still like beingan architect and I want to do that.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering and construction
(00:45):
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(01:05):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:28):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Today's guest is Mark Davenport.
He's the partner in charge at SPS plusArchitects, where he's been shaping learning
(01:52):
environments and communities for over twentyfive years.
Starting as an intern in 1999, Mark'sdedication and leadership have helped guide the
firm's growth while staying true to its corevalues.
We better the ball.
We listen.
We do what we say.
I'm gonna ask a lot of questions about those,Mark, so have that teed up for yourself.
They have partnered with over a 100 schooldistricts.
(02:12):
They'll bring safe, flexible, and inspiring Kthrough 12 educational spaces throughout
Arizona.
Mark is a registered architect and leadaccredited professional known for building
strong client relationships and advocating forsolutions that meet the needs of both students
and staff.
He leads projects with a focus oncollaboration, continual learning, and
innovation, ensuring every space supports longterm educational success.
(02:33):
And with all that said, Mark, welcome to theshow.
Justin, you're hired.
You could be my pitchman any day.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Like I said before we started, I'm allpersonality.
I just I just hit it hard, and then that thatworks out for me.
Look, I just got a job, Will.
That was pretty awesome.
There you go.
You can dual role here.
Exactly.
So, before you go into how you got an industryand everything, tell us about your core values.
(02:56):
I, I listed them all off.
Specifically the one, we better the ball.
What is, what, what does that mean?
So that's kind of like a sports analogy in whenit's like, let's, let's take what we have, or
maybe one of the clients that we've beenworking with and let's make it a little bit
better than what they had last time.
And sometimes it's a matter of, we don't wantto do exactly what they've been doing.
(03:16):
We want to try to push the envelope a littlebit and we definitely don't need to shoot for
perfection because then you never get done withanything either.
So let's
like,
let's find someplace in the middle and then seehow we can push that.
And we've done that with several differentclients in our history.
Like for example, you know, we'd like to dothis next generation learning environment
whenever we can.
(03:38):
And in some cases it's like, let's just makesure we have windows in every classroom.
That's a good start.
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes tons of sense.
So tell us how you got in the industry.
How did you become an architect?
So why did you become an architect?
Then tell us about SBS Plus.
For sure.
Yeah.
So, well, for, for the younger generation, theymight not, may not know the Brady bunch, but I
(03:59):
just thought Brady was like the coolest guyever.
I'm like, I'm going to do that.
But my mom still has a document that shows backin the grade where I said I was going be an
architect, but I'm sure lots of kids said theywere going to be an architect or a doctor a
fireman or a policeman.
But for me it was that.
And so I just got into mechanical drafting whenI was in high school and it was my wrestling
(04:23):
coach that was actually the drafting teacher.
So I was like, okay, I'll try this.
And I kind of liked it.
And so I just tried it at ASU and most of myfriends and family, like, what are you doing?
You're not an artistic guy, but, but I'vealways been a problem solver and it just kind
of kept on going.
I didn't even know what kind of architecture Iwanted to do.
(04:43):
And so I was placed as an intern as my, in myjunior summer, I went and studied abroad for
six weeks in Spain and Italy, came back, did myinternship.
I was just fortunate enough to be placed with afirm with great people that were doing great
projects and they were able to, you know, wewere small enough then that I worked side by
(05:04):
side with the owners and got great mentorshipand it was like, this is the best.
And it just kept on going.
Twenty six years later, I'm here.
Awesome.
So how do you go from intern to managingpartner?
That seems like, you know, you've lived theAmerican dream now.
Like you've done the thing.
Like tell us how what's the secret sauce tothat?
Don't sleep.
No sleeping?
(05:25):
Okay.
Check.
Don't sleep.
Work harder than everybody else.
You know, I don't know, man.
I think it really is it's a combination of ofof timing, of of having some luck.
Really, it is a lot of hard work and and quitelike, like just fortunate to have like found a
niche that really that, that I can like, amjust in sync with and designing schools.
(05:50):
And it's just, it was just like, I just reallyam lucky to good people, cool types of
projects.
And it just kind of worked out and lots of hardwork too.
It always the plan to become a managingpartner?
I knew that I was going to own whateverbusiness I was in.
I've always had leadership roles from a childgrowing up.
And so, and once I kind of decided architecturewas going to be my thing, that's like, yep,
(06:14):
I'll own my own firm.
I just don't know when or how or what thatlooks like, but I just knew it was going to
happen.
I was keeping it loose.
You had, you had a vision and didn't knowexactly how, but you got there.
So that's what matters.
Yeah.
And I was fortunate too, with my, with thefolks that I worked with back then, they always
said, Hey, if you want to be a partner in thisfirm, you can, and here's a, here's a path for
(06:37):
you.
Right?
And so that's actually something that I'velearned about myself that I think that
everybody else thinks that they have thatopportunity with my firm.
And I haven't done a good job of being thatsame mentor and leader to some of my other
younger up and coming professionals.
And this is something that's really come tolight within the last couple of years.
And so like shame on me, I better do a betterjob of that to make sure that my up and coming
(07:02):
team members here know that they have that sameopportunity here.
I love the candidacy.
One of our core values is being candid.
And so when you say that, you're, you're veryopen to say, hey, like I'm not perfect, right?
Like that's
Oh, I am not.
But knowing, right, which then leads to anotherone of our core values, which is continuous
improvement, which is, Hey, I know I'm notperfect, but yet I'm going to strive to try to
(07:25):
get at least 80% of the way there.
Better the ball, right?
That's better the ball.
There you go.
That all makes sense then.
So then what does leadership then look like?
So obviously you're the managing partner here.
Do you, do you have a full team?
Are they partners with you?
What does that look like?
Yeah, so I have one other business partner.
And so we're actually in a different model thanwhere we've been as traditionally, as a firm.
(07:48):
Our firm has always been relatively small,partner driven.
There's always been three to five partners.
At one point when I was brought in, there waseight of us.
And so for me, it was kind like growing up.
I had five brothers and sisters.
I'm like, there's no way I'm going to have
that many kids.
This is crazy.
And the same thing with the partnership.
I'm like, this is way too many people to beable to make some decisions.
(08:09):
Cause I, so I knew I wanted to kind of have asmaller ownership.
And then once we started growing, it's like,okay, we're either going to have 12 partners
cause we're four or five times the size that weever were, or we're going to have to change the
structure.
And so that's one of the things that we'vedone.
So now we have, we have an executive team, wehave an extended leadership team to try to help
(08:32):
manage the firm.
It's a little bit different, but it still is ina hands on way.
Cause that's one thing we didn't want to loseis partner involvement and really that kind of
that hands on involvement.
Cause I'm an architect and I still like beingan architect and I wanna do that.
So what is the breakdown between the executiveteam and the extended leadership team?
(08:54):
What's the differentiation and how is thatstructured throughout the firm?
Yeah, so a lot of this stuff is, and I'm stillfiguring some of this stuff out because again,
I'm an architect, I'm not a business owner.
I am an entrepreneur, but so we've got COO, Ihave a CMO on my executive team, my business
partner, Richard Begay is on our executive teamtoo.
(09:15):
And I had a CFO, but realized, okay, I don'tthink I need a full CFO.
So we have a controller that's in there nowtoo.
So there's the five of us on our executiveteam.
And then one of the things I realized as wecreated this executive team was, boy, I only
have my partner that's an architect in here andwe're an architecture firm.
So we need to have a little bit moreperspective on what, where the firm is going.
(09:38):
And so my extended leadership team is made upof the three studio directors that we have in
our office.
So a change that we made a few years ago was tocreate our office.
It was one big office trying to manage all thiswork.
And it was really hard.
And so we broke it up into almost like threesmaller offices.
So the head of each one of those small offices,each studio is in there on the executive, the
(10:03):
extended leadership team.
We have our director of constructionadministration and what's important about,
about him, John, is that he's involved with somany of our projects and he gets to see them
through construction.
So he's in front of our clients a lot more thaneven our architects during the design process.
(10:23):
So we have them we've got one of our businessdevelopment folks that that's in there because
they're out there too.
So we want to have a good pulse on what'shappening in the studio plus what's happening
in when our projects are under constructionplus while we're in our pursuits.
And then we have our HR manager that's in theretoo.
So and then recently we also added our BIMmanager because that's huge for our efficiency
(10:49):
and our production.
And he's a guy that knows where we need toreally kind of help make change.
So it's a really dynamic team of people thatcan really have some say into the direction of
the firm.
So I titled our executive team, the BOTS, whichis the business operations team.
Okay.
So we have bot and SET.
(11:10):
And so SET is our strategic execution team.
So it's almost like our executive team reportsto our extended leadership team because it's
like our strategic execution team, which arethe people boots on the ground, they can tell
us here's our struggles.
And now our executive team's job is to, whatcan we do to to either relieve these pressures
(11:33):
or put some things in place to help them dotheir jobs better?
So, okay.
A lot of pressures happen because of people.
Look, everything would be easy if peopleweren't part of the business.
Right?
Right.
Which means sometimes you have great fitpeople, and sometimes you have not so great fit
(11:53):
people.
Right?
And as much as you wanna plan, I heard thisphrase recently, I think people plan and God
laughs, I think is the term.
So we can plan all we want, but eventually someplans don't work out as well.
How do you manage that?
How do you know who to keep, who to hire, andpromote into leadership?
(12:17):
Boy, Will, you've really kind of tapped intosomething here for us.
Oh.
So we, we use the business operating systemcalled EOS, Entrepreneurial Operating System.
And one of their big things is they have anaccountability chart and work really hard on
right person, right seat.
And so we do a good job, think of hiring theright person.
(12:37):
And so that's kind of the cultural fit.
And so we make sure that we have the rightperson.
And if we, and if we, we work to find the rightseat and make sure that we have everybody in
their highest and best use.
And so when it comes to promoting people andtransitioning into other roles, we've done a
terrible job at it, like really bad.
(13:00):
And so, you know, when I said we created thesestudios and put some studio directors in place,
one of the things that we're going throughright now is, you know, I put one of my guys
there because he's one of the guy that says,whatever we're doing, give me the marching
orders and I'm gonna do it for you.
I'm gonna be that best guy.
Awesome.
The other guy, one of our, he's been herealmost as long as I have.
(13:23):
And so he knows all the history of our firm,but he can't juggle.
Right?
So have these people in these roles for abouteighteen months and then they kind of figure
out along the way, man, this is reallystressful.
And you know, for me, Mark, it was like, I hada good mentor by my side and said, here, go
figure it out.
And I could bounce things off of him.
(13:44):
And that's how I learned.
It's like everybody else can learn that waytoo, right?
No.
And so, so we're actually right now, I spentsome time these last, this of the year to find
out, let's really define what the studiodirector role is.
And then let's find out what does a trainingprogram really need to be to put somebody in
(14:04):
that place?
And so I've been developing that.
And so really now this month, we're going toroll out almost like an open call.
Who wants to be a studio director?
Cause two of the guys say, I want to get out ofthat role because they're not in the right
seat.
And so we want them to put them in a betterseat where they can be at their highest and
best use.
(14:25):
So we're kind of doing an open call.
And then I built what is like a trainingplatform for here are the things that you need
to be able to do and do well.
Like just by starting to write that out, it wasa pretty big move for us.
And so, so we did that and so I feel prettyconfident about that.
And so we got like a zero to three monthtraining, a zero to six month and a zero to
(14:49):
twelve month training program because justbecause we've got some, we might have some
people that have the overall qualities to runit.
They may not have the experience.
So, okay, let's build this program over twelvemonths and see when that, when that might
happen.
And there's, there's checkpoints along the wayto do that too.
So, so I'm pretty excited about that andgetting the right people in those places.
(15:12):
Kudos to your two studio directors that didn'tlet a title or ego get in the way of saying
like, Hey, this isn't the right seat for me.
Right?
Like, feel like that's, that's hard.
That's a difficult thing for people, you know,cause you, and you get put in a place and you
want to obviously do right and do good.
And you know, intentions are all high.
But if it's a seat that's just like, you'reonly at 70% capacity of what you could produce
(15:36):
if you were in a different seat, just simplybecause it's your magic, right?
Like, it's like, oh, if you get into that magicseat, the sky's the limit.
There's no, there's no stopping you.
So kudos to them for saying, Hey, like, I thinkthat there's a better seat for us.
Yeah.
And my COO is really amazing.
I hired him over two years ago now.
And my number one job was, Hey, I want youlisten to our architects and our designers and
(15:59):
to find out where their challenges are and likeconnect with them as people.
And at that, from there, we will learn how toplan better and be more efficient and things
like that.
And so fortunately he's built up a really goodtrust with our team so they can come to him and
say, I don't think I'm doing the best for myteam and have that conversation.
And so that's one of the, our best things thatwe have about our firm.
(16:23):
We have a culture of people that care andpeople that want to help each other.
And like, and that's what I hear from mostpeople after I've hired them.
They're like, this place is different thanothers.
Yeah.
You guys have crazy deadlines and all the otherthings like most other architecture firms, but
you care about each other and you try to dowhat's right for your team.
(16:44):
Love that.
So, you know, the care factor is superimportant when it comes to RPRS, right, so
you've got the right person, which in myopinion is harder to find than necessarily the
right seat.
How does a conversation like that come up?
(17:04):
Was it self where they came up to you or cameup to COO?
Or did you have to confront them and they go,yeah, actually?
It's like it's a combination of things.
Right?
So it's like, sometimes there's just thingsthat aren't working.
Right?
So in in one case it was six months ago thatone of the studios, invoicing was half of what
(17:27):
it should have been.
I'm like, what's going on here guys?
Or just, you know, one of the major roles of astudio director is communicating with the
client and the team.
And when I hear a lot from clients or teammatesthat are like, Hey, I'm just not quite sure
what's going on.
It's like, well, studio director is busyworking versus communicating.
Like that's the number one job.
(17:48):
We're there telling, we're telling people whatwe're doing, telling people what we're not
doing and setting the expectations and managethem.
So, you know, we actually recently had one withanother person that was in the director role
and it wasn't working.
And so have the conversation, it's like, Hey, Ithink this is going to be a better place for
you because you're the right person, but Ithink this is going to be a better thing.
(18:13):
And in that case, I'm not sure what got in theway.
And she was like, You know what?
I think I'm going to go try my chancessomeplace else.
And so unfortunately that happens sometimestoo.
And in this case that I'm talking about, thatcould have been because there was a few
transition when you're moving to the or theseat and they're like, you know, I don't think
(18:34):
I wanna go through this transition again.
So it could be that something that's tied tothat too.
But but, yeah, who knows?
It's a combination of things.
Those are tough conversations to have.
Do you I guess, what's the best word?
Do you hedge on those?
Right?
If if it's a key person, a key position,especially in leadership, right, do you hedge
(18:56):
or or do you have more of a hopeful strategyaround when you have that conversation?
You know, I typically have more of a hopefulconversation because one, you know, I and I
start them with, hey, do you think that this isworking?
Right?
Because it because if I don't think it'sworking, it's it's highly likely that the other
(19:17):
person, it's not working for them too.
Right?
And so if they're in a stressed out situationand I know that that that it's not working, so
I'm in a stressed out, let's figure out what'sgonna what do we need to do?
And in some cases, it's not with each otheranymore.
And in some cases like, can I, can I go helpyou find something else?
Because at the end of the day, I want people tobe happy in what they're doing.
(19:38):
And if they don't feel like they can do thathere, I can either help show them how they can
have that here or it is time to just part ways.
And in some cases, you know, my hope for thesethings drag on the situation longer than it
should.
And and like and that's probably one of myfaults that I gotta try to figure out, but
(20:00):
like, I've got a thing that like, nope, thisperson's a good person and we can make it work.
Okay.
Well, I definitely appreciate that insight.
I think that's tough.
And, you know, there's a you know, where doloyalties lie versus, you know, I wanna give
the person a chance versus, I guess, wherethey're just they're only doing 70% of where we
(20:24):
need them to be a 100%, you know, essentiallybe in their magic if or their zone of genius.
Are metrics the only way to recognize that?
You know, we're not the best with metricseither.
So I mean, in some
Love your candidacy, Mark.
I love the fact that you're like, I'm not gonnabullshit you.
Like, we're like, there are areas forimprovement.
(20:44):
I mean, I wish we had some good ones that I canbe like, yes, that's a good one.
But they're just not that great.
And so in some cases like, and I know thisisn't good for scaling up my business is like
me having a pulse on things.
And I, as we scale up, I just can't have apulse on everything.
So right now it's my time.
And so that's, that's the only way for me toreally kind of have it.
(21:06):
At the end of the day, like for example, we'rehaving a transition with our business
development team right now.
And it's like, yeah, we're not converting someof the work, but I know that the relationships
are there.
I don't know why it's not happening.
And some of my, my own faults were like, yeah,but that guy and he probably had this.
(21:29):
And so I, I can give maybe too much grace insome cases versus, versus really trying to hold
accountable to to some deliverables.
And, know, well, I like the guy.
So, yeah, we'll give him a break.
And then two years later, it's like, shit.
We're still not getting anywhere.
You know?
I, I feel like it's always a balance because Ido think KPIs are important.
(21:51):
I inherently believe that, but I also thinklike, did you set people up for success?
Right?
Like that's the other question.
Right?
So it's like, it's like, well, they're nothitting what I want them to hit.
So that's a problem.
But at the same time, have I given them all thetools necessary to then hit that number,
whatever it is, if it's a design number, ifit's a business development number, what have
you.
It is a balance, I think, that, because I thinkthe best business does have a human piece to
(22:17):
it, where it's like, you're a human being,they're a human being.
Like there has to be understanding to thosethings.
And it is a balance.
So I would give yourself more credit than maybeyou're giving.
You obviously have grown.
Like you have, you obviously have been able todo scaling.
Like, you have you've been doing these things.
You've broken up a multi tier, executive andthen leadership team or the bot and set, as I
(22:38):
love.
And so it's you are setting things up indifferent ways.
So, you know, give yourself a pat on the back,not all, doom and gloom.
Yeah, no, you're right.
And I appreciate that too.
And one of the, one of the, my biggestrealizations this year was just for me to try
to kind of document what some of thoseexpectations are.
Cause I talk a lot, right?
(22:59):
And I can talk about it, but it's like, but Ialso talk fast.
So it's like, let's try to get them documentedso that we can at least have it there and I can
refer back to it.
It's like, oh yeah, I didn't say that.
And so that's probably one of my, the thingsthat I'm working on the most this year is
trying to document some of these things just sothat, that the path is a little bit clearer for
(23:21):
somebody.
Cause you tell somebody something, they'regoing retain so much of it.
So it's like, if they can at least go back now,will they go back?
That's a whole nother question, but at leastthey could.
And it's there and I can like, hey, refer tothis please and then we'll talk again.
Sounds like an AI idea.
Have someone someone next to you on yourshoulder, so to speak, that can listen to
everything that you're saying, haveinstantaneous recovery, memory recovery, and
(23:44):
then can
what did he say again?
You know, someone else asks.
Well, you know what?
My best friend has been these past couplemonths is just chat GPT.
It's like, okay, I'm saying it, I'm just gonnaturn on the microphone and then let it
transcribe it for me.
And I can be like, let's put this into anoutline form.
It's like the best thing ever for me to be ableto start documenting it.
(24:07):
That is can you give an can you give a moreconcrete example of how you're how you're using
it?
Without obviously really revealing too much,but hopefully, it's not something super
secretive.
Well, just like this, like the studio directorthing, you know, like, I started spouting off
at our quarterly planning meeting.
It's like, these are the most important thingsthat a studio director needs to do.
(24:28):
All right, let's just put that in chat GPT.
Hey, can you build me a little outline aroundthis?
Okay.
And then the ball starts rolling, right?
And they're like, okay, yeah.
Oh yeah, I gotta remember to put this part in,this part in.
So the biggest thing for me now is let's makesure I dedicate some time to do that work.
Cause it's so easy to get caught up in thewhirlwind of like, I got these emails and I got
(24:50):
these things, but what's the, the, the, I'm a,I'm a big Stephen Covey guy and the seven
habits.
And so it's like, what's that quadrant two workthat you got to do?
Yeah, there you go.
Perfect.
I love it.
So it's like, I just never dedicate enough timeto that quadrant two stuff.
And it just, it's setting us back from reallycontinuing to scale and and helping my team.
(25:13):
And I and that's just what I I just that's myfocus of of 2025.
It's awesome.
Alright.
So process, right?
So process is important.
EOS would tell you processes everything.
As as you mentioned, you're an EOS company.
What are processes that you're currently tryingto build or that you have built more recently?
So, I mean, that's the biggest one.
(25:35):
Other one actually that's pretty huge for meand to kind of getting out of like a lot of the
day to day stuff is our fee proposals.
Cause I've got so much up here and all thenuances, like if I were to build a decision
matrix of an if then what now, you know, itwould be as big as this wall back here.
(25:57):
Right?
So it's like, no, that's not going to makesense.
So I'm trying to build that over this nextquarter is building out, okay, what does this
framework look like?
And I'm building it off of a sample project.
And then we can start to list some of thethings that could happen, because again, you
can't really do that in a way that will be easyto kind of go back to and refer to, but I'm
(26:22):
gonna start with kind of this outline form withsome examples, and then we can start to build
on it with a few other kind of example typeprojects.
Trying to create,
so trying to create your framework of decisionmaking, so that someone else can follow it, And
frameworks are the best because you have someloo you should have some loose, you know,
(26:43):
abilities within that framework.
So it's not necessarily left or right.
It's some somewhere maybe in the middle, butthe major pieces.
Right?
This is a hard no.
This is a hard yes.
This is gonna cost way more if it's done thisway.
Right?
This is gonna cost a lot less if it goes thisway.
Having those frameworks and then writing itout, super helpful because then it helps get
(27:05):
everyone on the same page that doesn'tnecessarily understand your process or hasn't
done this for thirty five years.
So do you do you try to make it perfect theround?
No.
No.
No.
No.
I always say version one.
This is version one, guys.
So version one.
At what point do you feel like it's good enoughthat you can publish it sort of out in the open
(27:26):
where you feel comfortable enough that anyoneelse following it, this should do.
Right?
There might still be some mistakes in it.
I understand.
But at what point do you say, yep, this is goodenough to start following?
You know, that's a good question, Will.
And I'm trying to be better at that because I'mgood with, like, releasing my chicken scratch.
Right guys?
This is good.
Right?
Go.
(27:46):
And so I remember our version of ourcompensation matrix, and it was so complicated
and it was so like precise that it caused somuch like issues within my office.
And I'm like, my gosh, we're just trying toprovide a guideline.
And I kept on saying, this is just a guideline.
So I'm like, okay, I have to keep saying this.
(28:09):
The matrix needs to show this.
Right?
So after two years, I'm like, I need to dothis.
And so I kind of reworked it and I'm like, Idon't feel good about it.
So, so I've been a lot more hesitant on justpushing things out the time.
And so I really worked hard on simplifying it,making it something that can that is legible.
(28:30):
And then and then what I do, novel concept isshare it with my leadership team and get some
feedback.
Oh,
yeah.
Buying in buy in from leadership teamdefinitely helps, especially if they're the
ones that ultimately are gonna have to eitherteach it or sort of distribute it amongst their
studios.
That totally makes sense.
(28:51):
Well, that was like the thing.
It's like I was telling these the guys, hey,here's what you do, but none of them could
kinda distribute the information downstream.
I'm like, what's going on?
I'm like, it's because none of them are owningit.
Not because they didn't have any authorship init.
Right?
And so it's like, okay.
So it's like, you know, painfully, that's howwe've learned some of our most most of our best
(29:11):
lessons is is the hard way and all the the thescars that we have to prove from it, you know?
But but we have some really good stuff as aresult of it.
Well, I love hearing about the progress as wellas the candor on that is a work in progress.
You know, when we talked before, I wannabecause I think this heavily affects process.
(29:37):
What was the breakdown in your firm's work andhas that changed since you've become managing
partner?
So we've always been a K-twelve firm.
I'd say back in the day we were a majority of,it was probably 80% school work and now it's
probably 60%.
(29:57):
And I would say 80% of our work kind of back inthe day was in rural communities and 20% was in
the metropolitan area.
So we've switched that to probably be 80% inthe Metropolitan Phoenix area and 20% rule
because I don't ever want to lose that becauseI don't know.
There's just there's something about working inour rural communities.
(30:20):
They appreciate the work that you do versus,sometimes in the valley, it's like, okay, what
have you done for me lately?
Somebody else is calling me.
I'm going to try them out.
So it's like, okay, sometimes it feels like acommodity commodity.
And I just know that we provide a betterservice than our competitors.
And it's like, well, you guys are reallymissing out and you should appreciate this good
(30:43):
stuff that we're doing too.
Right?
So, so that's probably some of the biggershifts.
And think another thing that, that when Istarted versus where we are today is we were
really a service based firm.
And so you weren't going to jump on our websiteand see any sort of award winning work.
And so it's like, we are architects, we do wantto design cool things.
(31:07):
And so we kind of went a little bit too much onthe design side and some of our clients were
like, Hey, what about this balanced approachthing?
And so I think that's where we are today, wherewe have a really good mix of, of some high
design, but, but also with that serviceapproach.
And one of the things that I talk to ourclients about a lot is it's like, you don't
(31:29):
have the budget to do cool shit everywhere, butlet's find out where, where that really money
should be spent on your project, whether it'sthe entry or whether it's the common space and
let's put it there and then let's still workwithin the budget and the schedule that you
have.
The trick is to always make the band roomreally cool as a former marching band kid.
(31:50):
What's the breakdown of the different studios?
Do have three separate studios or, you know,three separate studios?
What's that breakdown?
So one is in Tucson, so that was a pretty easy,easy break in.
And so they, they handled most of the SouthernArizona work, but, but also other projects
across the valley.
I try not to put them on too many things inFlagstaff, but, it does happen that way
(32:11):
sometimes.
And so I would say in the Tucson office, alsohave a, have a, probably a heavier focus on
higher education.
And then also some of the multifamily work thatwe do and maybe a little bit more commercial.
And then the two studios that we have here arepretty evenly split.
One is the main focus is K-twelve with a littlebit of sprinkling of other things.
(32:35):
And then the other studio is probably afiftyfifty like healthcare, and commercial, and
then K-twelve.
K-twelve is still kind of the big push.
Everybody's got to kind of do that K-twelvepiece.
Think that's part of how we deliver our servicealso is really how we work with our K-twelve
(32:56):
clients, which is really an over service.
Hey, we're going to over communicate.
We're going to do everything you need until youtell us to pull back.
And some of our commercial clients see how thatis.
And we can't charge the same because, know,it's a heavier intensity of an involvement on
our K-twelve.
So some of our commercial clients don't want topay for it.
(33:18):
Right?
So we figure out what that balance is, but alot of our commercial clients just aren't used
to that type of like hands on involvement.
So they really like it.
That's so what's the vision?
Obviously you you're K-twelve that's, that'sthe bread and butter that that's not going
anywhere, but you have these three studios isthe idea to eventually break them off more
(33:40):
regionally or is it more, no, like we are goingto push for that medical space.
So we're going to have a studio that is reallymore dedicated to that or commercial, whatever
that breakdown is.
Is there a vision that you have for where thesestudios go in the next three to five years?
You know, I haven't thought of it in thatfashion.
I mean, I still like thinking of them as littleoffices and in each little office will have
(34:04):
their different specialties that they do.
I know my competitors, they do have like ahealthcare studio and the different market
sectors and it probably makes sense.
Right.
But also, I mean, I kind of keep thinking abouthow it was for me when I was growing up and I
like doing lots of different things.
And when I talk to our staff, they don't wantto just do one type of an architectural
(34:27):
project.
So I think having that flexibility, even thoughit does hurt our efficiency in some ways, I
think it just provides for a better career forthe people that we have.
Yeah.
And balancing that efficiency with keepingpeople around, right?
Like there's an inherent value that comes withthat different, you know, just essentially a
different school of thought.
(34:48):
Yeah.
Didn't think about it like that, but yeah, it'sa good idea.
That's why
I do it.
That's why you hired me, Mark.
So let's talk a little bit.
Are you still doing any architecture workyourself?
I am, but but not as much.
And like the the amount that I'm doing, like,for example, like we have, we got a project at,
(35:09):
at one of our schools and my K-twelve architectguy he's doing his thing.
And so I talk with him about, you know, beforethe meeting, Hey, what are our expectations?
What do we want to try to accomplish with thismeeting?
And then here are constraints of the project.
Let's try not to go outside of these things topromise something that we can't deliver because
then walking that back is really, really hard.
(35:30):
And then after the meeting, okay, here's whatwe have.
And then I'll look at progress and then we'llkind of have a little design charrette and I'm
like, let's kind of do this with the building.
Or, you know, there was a curved component ofthe building, but they had a pretty tight
budget.
It's like, you know what, we're going to bespending a lot more money on the cool curvy
thing versus let's make this rectangular andlet's, we can get a little bit more square
(35:55):
footage in there for the same kind of a costwhen you're looking at it.
And so, you know, my architect was like, butthey really like this curve.
I'm like, let's bring them the option next timeto see if they want this smaller building
that's got these curves in it or a rectangularbuilding that's got a little bit more space and
flexibility.
And, you know, I'm not the biggest fan ofcurved buildings because you can't put
(36:16):
furniture in there.
Okay, neat.
What are you going to put in the corner?
There is no corner.
Okay.
So, you know, so we did bring that to them andof course they went with the simpler shaped
building so they could have more space.
And so it's things like that.
And then it's like, it was an athletic facilityand it's like, Hey, did we get a training room
(36:37):
in there?
Because you got to have the training room.
So just helping make sure that nothing kind ofslips through the cracks and we're thinking
about all of the potential aspects.
And it's like, the training room example, well,didn't ask for a training room.
Yeah, but they may not have known to ask for atraining room.
So that's our job is to, while we're puttingthings on paper, flush out all of those ideas
(36:59):
because they'll come up with that idea underconstruction, and then we have to figure out
how to go fit it in there.
Like, we have to do that on the drawing boardsearly on.
It's a lot cheaper than when you already haveconstruction material on the on-site.
Cheaper for to do to build it.
It's cheaper for us to design it.
Right?
Everything.
Fresh, you know, clean slate versus, I'm nowtrying to do an addition or a rework.
(37:22):
Yep.
Yep.
So this is something that we've talked aboutwith a few firms.
Wanted to get your perspective on sort of yourexperience with the different type of
contracts, the different sort of contracttypes, and where you're seeing the industry
going.
Like, with the construction kind of contract?
Or
(37:42):
Yeah.
So the fee structure based on a percentage,based on construction costs, straight time
materials, you know, stuff like that.
Yeah.
A lot of the stuff that we do, I really try todo it based off of a cost of construction.
Because at the end of the day, that's what'sgoing to help inflation for me.
Like, I don't care what my hourly rate is.
If we're keeping up with the cost ofconstruction, it's going to keep our firm
(38:03):
fluctuating with whatever the times are likethat.
So, in some cases it's like, and we do that alot in our K-twelve world and the multifamily
world, it's a cost per door.
So it's like, okay, and we scale that basedoff, we got this interesting matrix that says
if it's a smaller project with smaller doors,that's going to be a higher cost per door.
(38:25):
Then we look at the complexities and howevermany amenities they're going to have.
So that goes into our matrix.
But then in that case, it's like, okay, everycouple of years, we're going have to increase
that cost per door because it's, there's noother way to adjust for inflation and the same
thing with an hourly rate.
And at the end of the day, whenever you'redoing like a time and material or an hourly
rate, guess at how long it's going to take.
(38:49):
Excuse me.
It's really hard to guess how long you thinkit's going to take.
So I always try to go back to the cost ofconstruction as one way to check to see is my
fee going to be right.
And then, and so at the end of the day, we canbuild our fee however the client wants to see
it, but I'm going to use some of my time testedthings to, to be able to feel good about it.
(39:13):
And the other one is we're typically a certainpercentage of the total fee, like the, the, the
engineer component of our fee, of our total feeis going be anywhere between 3040%.
And so I'll, I'll, I've got two or threedifferent ways to kind of back check my number
to make sure it's going to go okay.
And then, and then, hey client, Mr.
(39:34):
Client, whatever you want to use, we'll signthat contract.
The final authority on, checking numbers?
I am right now, which is why I said earlier on,it's like, that's, that's my big thing to, to
try to document.
So I can really kind of hand that off.
And I've, I've, I've been, I've been trying todo it in which is essentially in a, hey, here,
(39:57):
here's how we do it this time and workingdirectly with the people that are building
these fee proposals and like, boy, it's been acouple of years now.
They're not, it's just not coming nature tothem, but you know, they're, they've got 10
other things that they're working on and it'snot their biggest thing.
And in some cases it's like, do they remember,hey, this is how Mark built it?
(40:17):
Probably no.
Mark just said to do this, so this is whatwe're doing.
Right?
So, so that's my bigger thing.
And I also had a, you know, I had my accountingteam that was driving these fee proposal
meetings and it's like, yes, I I know.
Hey.
Hey.
Where were you two years ago, Will?
That that's like that's like never the
(40:40):
other it's like the other learning lesson.
Never have lawyers negotiate business deals.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So, and so the and they don't really know howto do it either.
So it's like, okay, so we we switch theresponsibility to to the architects, but then I
have to have somebody that is continuing tostay on top of my architects because one of the
(41:01):
good things about my production staff and myarchitects is they are a projects first team.
So it's like, we're going to work on ourprojects and deliver a good set of drawings and
good designs Everything else will happen later.
Like billing, oh, later.
The next project, oh, later.
I don't want to do that.
So now it's like, now we have to have anaccountability system to make sure that they do
(41:25):
follow-up and track on these things to helpmake sure they get done.
A proposal doesn't sit there for three weeksbecause we're waiting on something.
It's like,
ugh, no.
So Losing momentum sucks, especially if it'sdetailed work that needs to go, go into it.
I understand.
Details are important because that's wheremargin is.
Yeah, for sure.
(41:45):
And so we use culture index.
It's one of our, there's many different thingsto utilize.
And so most of my architects are a high Dperson, which is like, they need a lot of data
to be able to kind of move forward and make adecision.
In many cases, when you're putting the peopletogether, you don't have much and you have to
make some guesses at things and you say, here'sthe guess that I'm taking.
(42:09):
I'm going to put this down on paper.
And then we know the basis of what the proposalis.
My high detail guys and gals, that does notwork with them.
I am a low D guy, like let's say this is theeven line.
I'm way over, I'm off the screen when it comesto how much detail I need.
And most of my architects are like right heretowards this side over here.
So it's like, so many times I can frustratethem because I'm like, we don't need much.
(42:33):
Let's go, go, go.
And they're like, we need so much more.
That's very funny.
Her COO, high detail as you could imagine as aCOO would be.
So I remember many times having conversationswith her and thinking in my brain, like, why
the hell do you want the like, why do you needme to give you more?
I like, I already know the decision.
(42:53):
I know the path we need to go.
Come on.
Like, let's let's go.
Like, let's do this thing.
But then we took took one of the tests.
It wasn't that one, but it was another one.
And it literally was like so obvious.
It's like, oh, yeah.
I'm a four and you're an eight.
So like, the the distance about details that wehave in between each other is enormous.
I'm a two, by the way.
(43:14):
I've
take I've taken Culture Index.
I've actually taken it multiple times overyears, completely forgetting about it, and then
doing it again,
and I get the exact
damn result.
Exactly the same every time.
Like down to down to the point.
I was like, this is scary accurate.
So I come out as a philosopher.
(43:35):
That says anything to you.
Oh, yes.
You do know.
You do know.
I'm a rainmaker.
Okay.
So we're in the same we're very similarcategories.
So the low D, high high A.
Yep.
And I forget what the other I forget what theother what the other ones are.
Well, highly autonomous, highly social, canmultitask really easily and do not need very
(43:56):
much detail before making any sort ofdecisions.
Okay.
Dangerous type.
Dangerous type.
All gas, no brake.
Uh-huh.
So hence hence my, like, yeah, I'll issue thisthing to my entire company, and then they all
go haywire with, like, what is this?
It's just a guideline, not for my ID people.
(44:16):
Yeah.
My I've been told that I like to create chaos.
And so our COO has to tame chaos, and everyonelooks over at me when so I'm not allowed to be
in operations.
I got fired from operations, and that's why I'mCEO.
So firing firing yourself from the day to dayduties, I'd say that's a good way of putting
(44:39):
it.
You know, once the fees once the sort ofcurrent process fee proposal is done, what's
the next big thing?
Oh boy, that's a good one.
I think at that point, I will start to work onsome, some regional growth plans for us because
we do have those opportunities out there andit's, and it's been, it's been on that horizon,
(45:01):
but it's like, there's still a lot of work thatwe're not winning here.
And I want to tackle that.
And so so I think we can one, we can start totake on a little bit more of that.
And I, and you know, the studio director thingis, is happening better also for us.
I think that's kind of happening at the sametime.
And so, and I think that's going to help myteam because I, cause I'm also in the day to
(45:24):
day, a little bit of making sure that our cashflow is still there and our, our revenue is
still there and our billings are still there.
So I think I'm hoping that getting the rightpeople in there and planning our workflow
better is going to help automate that a littlebit.
So automating some more of those things arecritical, critical because I have the capacity
(45:45):
to jump into any other growth other than whatwe're in right now.
And so I think that's probably where my nextbig thing is because a big thing that that's
becoming harder and harder is my competition'sgetting better and better.
And so I definitely don't want to fall to thewayside of I'm going take the scraps because
(46:07):
these guys keep kicking my ass, you know?
And so that's another thing that we're kind ofworking on at the same time to maintain our
competition and that might mean to grow more sothat we have a better resume, more kind of R
and D capacity to show that we're experts inthe fields that we're in.
(46:28):
And it seems like that's kind of where ourmarketplace is going.
So, so as I do that, then we can start to lookat what, what additional growth means.
And I think it is now in a regional type of away.
Well, allows you to have more of that time onthe business, right?
When you
talk about in the OS where it's like, are youworking in the business or on the business?
And like doing all the things you justmentioned is like, well, are all on the
(46:51):
business.
That's not the, I need to deliver this projectby this timeline, or I need to go through this
change order or whatever is happening on theday to day.
That's the, Hey, like how do we make sure thatwe're competing at a high level with our
competition?
Does that require us to grow to get that R andD support or how much time of the bot or set
(47:12):
can, put towards on the business compared to inthe business roles that they obviously have to
take care of as well.
So it's interesting.
Grow to grow essentially, right?
Like that's the idea.
Like I need to grow.
I need to hit this next thing or, or we call itlike early hire, like hire a role that's
earlier than I maybe need it, but it'll growinto that and it'll speed up the growth for the
(47:34):
company.
You know, what's funny about that.
I was talking with a business consultant aboutthat and he's like, so I bet you're a very
conventional business owner.
I'm like, Oh, I don't know.
Like I do a lot more risky things than myformer partners do.
Like my former partners would count the coffeegrinds before they'd order more coffee.
(47:54):
Right?
I'm like, Order as many cake cups as you want.
We're going to be great.
So I'm like, oh yeah, I'm such like a risky guyhere and we go with the seat of our pants.
So this business consultant was telling me,he's like, well, I bet you hire when you can
foresee a need or you're not hiring to grow,you're hiring because you have a busy workload
and you care about cashflow and care aboutpaying people bonuses at the end of the year?
(48:18):
And I'm like, well, yeah.
He goes, yeah, it's a pretty conventionalbusiness owner.
I'm like, okay, so I guess I'm not a very riskyguy willing to risk at all for growth.
But one of our strategies is when people ask meabout what our growth plan is, it's like, want
to, we want to work on the types of projectsthat we want to work on and work with the
people that we want to work with.
(48:38):
And so that's probably not the best growthstrategy at the end of the day, but it's, it's
one that we have.
And it's one I think on why we can keep goodpeople too.
Cause we're not going to make them work onthings or with people that are just crappy.
Who wants to do that?
Not me.
You know what?
Says a lot about strategy.
That is definitely a strategy.
(48:59):
It is.
And that works.
Like, We call that niching, or niching forthose that wanna be politically correct, in
terms of grammar.
But niching is a great way to help go, well,this doesn't work for us as a client.
And this all you know, it's a good way to sayno.
(49:19):
And a good, you know, so where do can you sayyes and succeed?
Right?
Which is awesome.
Right?
So it gives you leverage, in what you're doing.
There is a scale to that.
Speaking of scale, how do you leveragetechnology, you know, to help you build scale
in your business?
(49:41):
That's another thing that we're we're embarkingon right now too.
We're, you know, we've learned over the overthe years that we can't bring on a technologi a
tech a technology tool to help with anythingunless we have our processes mapped.
Like,
I know it's like, let's bring this in and it'sgoing to fix everything.
(50:01):
No, it's not.
And so, so we, right now we have an accountingsoftware called Azure and we've got a different
CRM called Uninet.
We've got a different operations softwarecalled Wrike and they all kind of work.
And so we're embarking now on a six monthjourney to kind of go to an ERP within the AEC
(50:21):
space.
It's like, you know, you try not to get buyinto, oh, it does all these things.
And it's like, if it does all these things,then it doesn't do one thing great.
Right.
It's like it has to do our accounting systemlike the best because we, what, when we have
now is just garbage.
And then secondly, it has to help us plan andlike the minimalist way of planning out a
(50:44):
project.
And then like we have to have a way to put someleads in and be able to follow-up on them.
And so it's like, okay, we're going to kind ofthrow all our eggs in one basket.
So it's kind of scary.
So a novel thing that we did this time was wehad a little test kitchen of different people
throughout our office that can kind of go inand play with this software and see, give our
analysis, here's where things aren't workingfor us.
(51:05):
Here's where we think we need to go.
And we tested out several different things overthe last nine months.
It's like, okay, I think it's time to pull thetrigger on this.
So there's a heavy financial commitment to itand, and just really shit the pucker factor of
like, I hope this works.
Well, I mean, did you create communities?
(51:29):
Sorry.
Go ahead.
Did you create any type of, like, communities?
You know, essentially, you said test pilot.
So probably had someone in the biz dev side,someone on the finance side, someone, in the
operations side that all had to test thesedifferent components of whatever ERP or
software that you're looking to.
Do you do it as individual individuals?
Or did you do it as more than individuals?
(51:51):
Yeah, more than individuals, like on the, onthe operations side, we had a studio director,
a project manager, and then a job captain.
So they could kind of see all sides of it andlike how they're going to work within it.
And then a couple of accounting people and thenactually more than a couple of accounting
people, because it started off with just beingin the accounting software.
(52:12):
And what, three years ago, four years ago, wewere just so done with our accounting software
and I would just turn it over to my CFO to gofind something new.
And she did, and we started implementing it.
And two years later, it was never implementedbecause it was just going to be so dang
complicated.
Spent a lot of money, time and effort and justpulling the plug on it, throwing it out.
(52:35):
Nope, not going to happen, which is hard.
And, you know, and we started a new, this isour CRM that we have now, still not fully
utilized kind of expenses, still a little bitclunky, went through the trend.
Nope.
Toss that away too.
We're going to throw all in because we didfinally get some buy in from the people that
(52:56):
are going to be working on it and that like,yes, this is going to do what are the pros and
cons from what we have now?
Because it is expensive too, right?
And so, yeah, so it's some of that learningprocess of trying to figure it out with not
just one person, which is what I had done inthe past too.
So let's get a group of people that can jump inand have some say, not just, yes, this is going
(53:19):
to work or not, Give me some pros and cons onon on on it or going not going with it.
Well, you definitely brought about some goodlearning lessons.
Something that I think we could if you were tojust one learning lesson, because, you know,
it's sunk cost fallacy, what's a learninglesson that you would take, you know, in terms
(53:41):
of you already talked about, you know,involving more people, but you had one person
before.
Right?
That that was the CFO that was and then tooktwo years, and then you you decided not to
implement.
So what's a learning lesson from that?
I I mean, like we said, I think having a acommunity or or committee of people to vet it.
(54:03):
And, you know, I'm not a micromanager at allbecause my D is very low.
Remember that's off the screen there.
And so it just, that's just not my style.
So, so one, I try to be hands off, but I'verealized too that like, I still got to have my
hands in there a little bit to be able to knowthat we're vetting it, how we're vetting it,
(54:24):
and that, and that it is going to be the rightsolution and that we've tested it out enough
and really getting the, really getting the buyin because I've been trying to preach certain
things for so long and it just doesn't stick.
So whenever we can get buy in and have it besomebody else's thing, like, can't remember
the, way it was managing people from whatmatters.
(54:47):
I read it on my, my annual retreat this year.
And one of the things that they talked aboutwas don't give somebody their standard
operating procedures, or don't tell somebodywhat their job job is.
Have them tell you, have them write it down.
So then they've got the buy in and then youguys can build it together.
And if you continue to do that, that person andthat role will own that for for as long as they
(55:13):
have it.
So it's like, yeah, it sounds like a little bitmore work, but but, boy, there's no other
better way to create that buy in.
Yeah.
The results the results are so drasticallydifferent when you get buy in.
Justin?
Yeah.
I was gonna say my my thing is like, boy, if Icould start this all over again, if I had all
this stuff when I started, that'd be great.
But man, it would not be as much fun.
(55:34):
Right?
Well, that actually leads right into our lastquestion very beautifully, which is if you
could go back twenty years, Mark, what advicewould you give yourself?
Yeah.
Well, you know, the one of the things that Idid the this past I'm in a men's group called
Junto, right?
And one of the things that we really spent sometime on is where do you want to be spending
(55:58):
your time?
What, where do you think you're going to be inyour highest and best use?
And so for me, like I was able to put it intothree buckets, right?
I like being an architect.
And so I want to make sure I spend time andfocus time on that.
I like driving our business growth and I likemeeting new people and being a part of that
business development team.
(56:19):
So growing our business, so like SPS plus is aproject that I like working on.
I like building projects and I like peopleprojects.
And so finding out where you want to spend yourtime and then being really diligent about
spending your time in those areas and notgetting caught up in the whirlwind because
there's so many distractions every single daythat how can you be diligent to spend your time
(56:41):
in those areas to be purposeful, and do thethings that you want to do.
And that's where I think you have the biggestresults, the greatest happiness and things like
that.
It's the place where people are blind to,right?
Everybody has goals and has aspirations and allthese things, but it's the, what are you saying
no to, because you only have so much time to dothese, these things or these goals, these, you
(57:05):
know, buckets.
Right?
You can only I get so much of it.
So there's a lot of asks that happen every dayfor everybody that if you stay true to your
buckets and say like, does it belong in one?
If not, I gotta say no to.
And a difficult thing to do, but if mastered, Icompletely agree with you.
You're you're living your best life.
Yep.
Totally.
Awesome.
(57:26):
This has been tons of fun.
A lot a lot of excitement, lots of nuggets.
I loved I love the candor across the board.
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,Mark, what's the best way for them to do that?
Well, my you can jump on our website and findme, but I'm a I'm only a text away.
Am I allowed to give my phone number out?
Because like Yeah.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
602522190.
(57:48):
I've had it since I was 18 years old.
And so I've had it forever, but really like Ilove talking to people.
People ask for architectural advice.
I can pay it, nope, because sometimes if it'sjust a two minute conversation, I'm happy to
share with you the knowledge that I havebecause people have done it with, for me, my
entire career and I wanna continue to pay thatforward.
(58:10):
I love that.
I will throw that as well as the website inyour show, so all in the show notes.
And is there anything else you'd like to tellthe people before we say goodbye?
No, this
has been super fun, and Justin, we'llappreciate the time that you've given me here
today.
And if you need any sort of architecture help,come and find us because we're the best out
there.
Love it.
Love it.
Love it.
(58:30):
Love it.
This has been a blast to your listeners.
So until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(58:52):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(59:14):
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.