April 8, 2025 • 45 mins
Jennifer Bookspan joins the discussion to explore the candidate experience in corporate America, emphasizing hiring the right person and role alignment. The conversation delves into the book "Who Not How" and the challenges of rapid company growth, identifying candidate stages, and being honest about growth trajectories. Jennifer highlights the importance of core values and true company culture representation, along with recruiting improvements and the impact of effective onboarding. The episode also covers signs for employment change, succession planning, and transitioning identity for business owners. Addressing labor shortages and AI's impact in the AEC industry, the discussion concludes with talent development and employee assessment methods.
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(00:00):
One is the recruiting process in general incorporate America, in any company for the
(00:08):
candidate.
The candidate experience is pretty shitty.
I'm just gonna be straight with you.
I hear about it.
I don't care if you're a CEO.
I don't care if you're a staff accountant.
People call me all the time to vent becausethey went through three interviews.
They invested ten hours of time.
They went through the six week process.
(00:28):
And then guess what?
They just got ghosted.
Like Yeah.
Dropped off.
Have
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Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of BuildingScale, specifically the Building Connections
series where I get to hang out and talk withpeople I meet in my everyday life here in
Phoenix.
Amazing leaders, owners of businesses, all thatfun jazz, and, Jennifer Bookspan is definitely
(02:00):
one of those.
When I asked, you know, I always ask who youare.
Give me a little intro so I can really give alot a lot more meat on the bone in these intros
that I give them.
Company builder, talent innovator, peopleleader, and recruitment strategist is how she
described herself, which I love because as thechief storyteller at Spot Migration, I get a
(02:22):
lot of, like, I'm the basic title of thing.
Right?
But not Jen.
She's like, no.
No.
No.
No.
I'm I'm a company builder, a talent innovator,people leader, and recruitment strategist.
She really kinda sends it home with the storyis what I like to think.
And she's been doing, recruiting for overtwenty years.
So she's fiercely committed to finding the bestpeople and putting them in the right seats,
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which as a new US company here at Spot, we loveright people, right seats inherently.
I met Jen through, Keymakers, a networkingorganization here in Phoenix, and it was kind
of this fun conversation we had at a aballgame, a Diamondbacks game, and then I've
had multiple conversations since then.
And it's always good to see her when I do,which is not nearly enough.
(03:06):
But nonetheless, I got I got her to hop on thepodcast and and tell us a little bit about what
she sees, some trends that are happening in theindustry, how you find great people, when to
know when to move on to the next stage, or, youknow, even when you're talking about the,
succession planning and what that looks likefor leaders.
So, it was just really great conversation, and,I'm sure you're gonna enjoy it as well.
(03:28):
So with all that said, here's me and Jen.
Jen, I love people so much, unbelievably muchthat I need to ask about the who instead of the
role.
Like, why hire the who is essentially, I guess,the question I have.
Yeah.
So that is a really good question.
I love what we're talking about today
because this is
right in my, I think it's important foreveryone.
(03:49):
So I think a lot of people spend a lot of timethinking about what they need to get done with
their work, whether it's they're running acompany, they're a leader, they're running a
team, and they do a lot of thinking about what,what, what, what needs to get done, what needs
to be built, what, what hasn't beenaccomplished.
And I don't think people spend enough time onwho instead of what.
(04:12):
And the book I am referencing is Who Not How.
And it's a really short book.
It's by Dan Campbell.
I highly recommend it for anyone in that kindof a capacity because you should be thinking
about who you are, what you bring to the table,but who can accomplish things for you to make
you more, your organization more powerful, yourcompany more powerful, instead of thinking that
(04:35):
you do it all because you can't and you'll endup in a, as a one arm paper clip.
You won't be able to accomplish So Who Not Howby Dan Campbell.
And I think that thinking about that is, isreally what gets you into thinking about
recruiting, which is what I do.
Yeah.
We, so we grew a bunch, last year.
So we are COO, effectively that's the seat shesits in, is doing our recruiting.
(04:59):
She is pulling her hair out a bunch is theeasiest way to put it.
A little bit to our fault for growing so fast.
You know, this is the issue of like, wants togrow fast.
And then once you actually start growing fast,you just start realizing all the problems, not
just even the hiring aspect of it, which isHerculean as it is, but then like, oh yeah,
there's like 58 processes that you thought youhad that are just totally broken now because
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you're growing too fast.
So, very much in that mindset.
So I definitely gonna check out the book andcertainly give to Kosh to say, Hey, something
to, you know, feel as we continue to growbecause in my heart of why stop, you know, even
though Kosha's losing her mind a little bit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyways, one thing that I always think ofwhen I think about hiring and, it kind of comes
into this, you know, how do you build thatteam?
(05:44):
Like how do you get a team and how do you knowthe who's that you're looking for maybe is the
first question that should be asked.
Yeah, that's a really good point.
I love that you guys are hiring.
It's very exciting.
And what I would just say is there's a fewsimple things, not simple, but simple, not
easy.
Simple, but
not easy.
(06:04):
Simple, but not easy.
Right.
I think it's really important that you know andreally work on who you are looking like, what
the role is and really get serious about thatand be clear about what you need versus what
you want.
Because if you get sometimes if things get tooout of hand, you're never gonna find that
person.
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It's like a purple unicorn.
So I think it's important to be clear on that.
And then alignment, alignment, alignment.
Can I say that word again?
Alignment.
Aligned with your team on what it is you'relooking for, because that is probably the
number one issue I see with companies and teamsis the, you know, the CFO is off wanting to
hire or a director of sales wants to go hiresomeone, but they're not aligned as a group or
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the CEO has a vision.
But if you don't get your team on the bus, thenit's a waste of time and money.
The person that you bring on, you can just seedown the road where it's going to go.
So even though it's work, please alignment, getalignment on what you're looking for.
And then I think that one of the things I thinkabout, especially with a startup or a growing
company, but it could be for any company isthink about not only what you need today, but
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what you're going to need.
What's that role going to be in six months or ayear?
Because sometimes the role today is is fairlytactical, but it might get really, it might
just become much more complex and you may wantto be thinking about hiring for where it's
going to be in six months or someone who has acapacity versus just thinking about, well,
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this, this is what the job is today.
And so that's hard, but I think it's importantto think through.
That goes through the challenge of not overhiring as in the amount of people, but over
hiring for a position like, especially whenyou're smaller and you start saying like, I
need somebody really to oversee finances, or Ineed somebody to really oversee sales, or
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whatever it is that the thing that you'reyou're trying to offload because you're doing
everything or, you know, a small chunk of youare doing everything.
What's that balance though?
Because like, hey, like, technically, we needthese things today and maybe in the next six
months.
But like, I also need you're down the roadhere.
I'm gonna need them to be a lot more strategic.
Right?
So like, one, how do you sell that concept tosomebody that that is going to have those
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qualifications instead of trying to grow themand, and, you know, really groom them into the,
the thing you're trying to get out of them?
How do you get them to buy in to like, Hey, I'mgoing to come do this.
I know the first, you know, six months to ayear might be a little beneath me or a little
lower than what I like to do, but the upside isthe future.
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Very good question.
Part of it has to do with if the person youwanna be honest, of course, because that's what
you're getting.
But if people have experiences with startups orexperiences where there was a, where they were
involved with a massive growth situation, thinkit's ideal because they know where this goes or
where it could go in a period of time.
So I think getting some clarity on that.
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And I think someone who maybe doesn't have allthe experience that you are going to need in
six months, but has the capacity that wants totake it on.
So there's a couple of different ways you canlook at it, but clearly, you do not want to be
dishonest about where it's going.
And so I've seen it happen.
I've seen mistakes happen where you you makethe easy decision to hire someone that can do
(09:23):
the job today.
But in six months, that person's way over theirhead And you have have to manage the situation
and get someone else and it's not good.
So it's like a balance.
But so I would just say, I think not to be on atoo much of a tangent, but part of what I look
for in people is like what stage of a companyare they really like?
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Do they shine?
Like where do they fit?
Because some people are really good at theearly stage.
Some people are really good at that middle likescale stage.
Some people are really good at servicing, finetuning, doing more that's already well
established.
And I think know who you are, know where youbelong and think about people and where they,
where they might be, because not everyone'sgoing to be good for every company forever.
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Yeah.
That's, be honest with yourself too, right?
Like, where is your company at?
Like everybody wants to grow, but like, are youactually hitting growth?
Like, are you doing the thing that you, youbelieve you want to be?
And lots of times, I see this a ton where I'llgo to conferences, you know, industry
conferences and things like that.
And everybody in the room claims that they wantto grow, but then I'll see them again the next
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year.
And it'll be like, yep, still doing the samething I was doing last year and not, not, not
actually growing in comparison to like somepeople you're like, oh man, like, you've made
unbelievable strides in a year.
Like, it's like, holy crap.
So being honest with yourself is probablyreally important.
We believe in core values very, very deeply atSpot.
And hiring, promoting, firing, all thesedifferent things kind of go through our core
(10:51):
values, you know, essentially glass of of likelooking through the the looking glass.
Where where do you see core values in playhere?
Obviously, you have to find the right personfor that role.
Right?
There's a component there.
The right seat is what we call it in The US,but like finding the right person, like just,
you're the right human being for us.
And sometimes that means you're not the righthuman being for us right now because we, the
(11:16):
skill set that you have, we don't quite need,or we've passed skill set?
That is really good.
I think that is a big point.
And I love that your core values are very muchlike leading out through, through who you are
because when I think about hiring and if I'm acompany and I don't care if I'm a one person
company or 10,000 person company, I need to bewho I am and I need to represent that.
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And that means to me, like lean into, hey, ifyou are, you guys aren't the top payers in the
world, but you have a great, like you're,you're, you have a real development culture and
people really have a lot of advancementopportunity if they do well, or you don't have
a lot of bureaucracy, sell what you are, notwhat you hope to be or that you think people
(12:02):
are going to want to hear.
Cause you're going to show up like Justin, justthink about this like dating.
Like you're going to be who you you're going toshow up tomorrow as who you are.
You can pretend for a while, but that Justin'sgoing to show up.
And so I just feel like companies need to ownwho they are and be who they are when they're,
and represent themselves really clearly whenthey're interviewing, when they're attracting
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candidates, because it's just, you're going todeter the people that are not jiving.
They're not on your vibe.
Like they don't not.
It's just going be a natural thing.
And it's much more likely that you're going toland and you're going have people that get it,
understand where you are, can be flexible withwhere your situation is, and they're going to
be excited about it.
So that's all the way through the recruitingprocess, how you represent yourselves,
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onboarding, which I can talk about too, buthopefully that helps.
I think that's a big deal.
Think of it as dating.
That's what helps.
So I, other than my wife, I've not dated in avery long time, but I understand the concept of
it makes sense of sense because I frequentlythink about this, this happened to me, where I
was writing emails and I I'm very energetic.
(13:08):
I'm very exclamation points in my emails.
This is just who I am.
Like, it and I remember asking Kasha again,man, Kasha is on my mind apparently today.
I remember asking her, I'm saying like, hey.
Like, do you think this is coming off, like,cheesy or, like, too salesy or, like, this
whole thing?
And I remember her asking me, she's like, well,do you feel that way?
Like, is that how you feel?
Like, is that are you really excited?
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I'm like, yeah.
I'm just that's just me.
I don't know how else it's me.
And she's like, well, then just do that.
Because at the end of the day, getting somebodyin your ecosphere or, you know, in your
connections, your network, They're, they'reeventually gonna know that like, oh, Justin's
super like bubbly and loud and exciting.
And like, that is you.
And if they don't like that, they're eventuallygonna find that out either way.
(13:52):
So why not just in the beginning of arelationship, let them be aware that like,
yeah, this is what I am.
This is who I am.
This is what you're getting.
So yeah, that that makes sense to say.
Yeah.
100%.
And obviously let's have a caveat.
We all need to evolve.
There's some, you know, people are doing somebad behaviors.
We don't want that.
But I also feel like you have to lean into whoyou are naturally.
(14:15):
So I think that that is, that is probably thetheme for me right now is helping people lean
into who they are and companies lean into whothey are.
And it, it just is, it really sets you up forsuccess as well.
And I wanted to mention, so we talked about alittle bit of like figuring out what you want
and what you need and the recruiting process.
And there's just two little things that I feellike could be game changers if I'm a company.
(14:40):
One is the recruiting process in general incorporate America, in any company for the
candidate.
The candidate experience is pretty shitty.
I'm just gonna be straight with you.
I hear about it.
I don't care if you're a CEO.
I don't care if you're a staff accountant.
People call me all the time to vent becausethey went through three interviews.
(15:03):
They invested ten hours of time.
They went through the six week process and thenguess what?
They just got ghosted.
Like dropped off.
And it happens way more than you ever want toknow.
And I don't think people understand it untilthey've experienced it personally.
It's a very difficult thing.
I feel like people just communicate, justcommunicate, just let people go.
(15:26):
If they're not going to be, you know, betransparent as best you can communicate when
people are not, they will love you for itbecause they're going to remember you're going
to stand out compared to most every othercompany that has the shittiest of shitty ways
of communicating to candidates.
So just FYI on that.
And then the other thing I wanted to mention,which is kind of boring people.
It's something that's overlooked a lot isonboarding.
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And the reason I say that you spend all thistime, you get out, you get this person, right?
Their first day, it's like you're spending allthis time wooing them.
Marry them and then you kind of drop them andsay, here you go.
And it is like, seriously, I think twenty threepercent of people leave within the first year.
(16:10):
And part of it has to do with onboarding andsixty nine percent of people, if they have a
positive experience will stay for three yearsor more.
So The
obvious question is what does good onboardinglook like then?
Certainly, when we think of it's spot, likecandid is one of our core values.
(16:31):
So maybe sometimes we, you know, we gotta reelthat in to a degree because being too candid
sometimes can be too detrimental, but that'sthe life we live.
So we always wanna give people feedback andlike say, this is good, bad, why you got hired,
why there's an issue, all those differentthings.
But onboarding, that's a thing that I'd love tohear more about.
I don't want someone to think that you have toplan a twelve week mapped out process where,
(16:56):
you know, that training.
I'm thinking more like have a plan.
Who do they need to meet?
What systems they need to learn?
How who's gonna teach it to them?
As your leader, are you gonna do weekly checkins or daily like maybe the first week, daily
check ins, and then have a plan.
Take them to lunch.
Make sure they have connections or connectionpoints that first week or two.
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Who are their key partners?
Coach them, like give them, to me it's likeinvestment.
It's like, you know, you've just made this hugeinvestment, invest in them because the success
rate is super high.
And it doesn't mean, like I said, I'm notexpecting this itinerary that is super complex
and every minute is, is dialed down.
I just think you have to have a plan because itshows you care.
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And then they're gonna feel that they havesomething to go by.
And what I would, I would do the reverse ofthat is when I am, when I've placed someone,
you know, when I give them, what advice I givethem when they go to work and I don't care what
level it is.
You are going to feel dumb for at least sixmonths.
Lean into it because you're just gonna feeldumb because you don't know where the bathroom
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is.
You don't know the systems.
You don't know the people.
I think you forget what that's like if youhaven't been a new hire in a long time.
So help them, give them resources so that theyfeel good and that you care.
So I probably went on that for too long, but Ican't stress it enough because I think people
just overlook that as a part that is reallyimportant.
(18:23):
I think, first impressions, right?
Like we, we talk about this, in sales all thetime.
Like what is the fir or when you get a newclient, like that first impression, like when
we onboard a new client, it's like, that is ahuge crucial moment in our relationship for the
next however long they're with us.
Three years, five years, like, that is such ahuge differentiation.
(18:46):
So it makes sense internally too.
Right?
It's like somebody that you have, you know, inthe in the talent acquisition aspect, you sold
them onto your company to come on in and joinyour team.
Now you have to deliver an experience to towhatever degree that is.
But one, it has to also be true.
You know, you talked about, like, the wooingand then dropping off.
Like, it has to be still true to what you soldthem.
(19:09):
But then also like, think about just having aplan.
Like, hey, like, it's not just, oh, we need anew person to, you know, run payroll or
whatever.
And it's like, sure, we'll hire them.
And then they'll just try to figure things out.
It's like, that's a recipe for disaster.
Yeah.
I just had a leader talk to me yesterday whowas sold really hard on a company, went to work
(19:29):
for them.
After a month said, Jen, this was like a baitand switch.
Like what they told me and what was, was sodifferent.
So it's easy to sell.
It's easy to talk, but actions are whatmatters.
And you know what?
We're evaluating candidates all the time whenwe're in a process like, are they on time?
Are they prepared?
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Do they ask the right questions?
Do they have the experience?
Like we are always assessing candidates, butcandidates are also assessing companies.
And I think that it's like how you have to lookat yourself.
And it doesn't mean we're perfect.
No one's perfect.
Everyone messes up sometimes, but have a planand or have someone help you with a plan if
you're not the best at planning.
So
(20:10):
No, for sure.
What, what about the other way?
Like when does, when do you know when it's timeto make a change?
Like when, when is, maybe some signs, someindicators that says like, Hey, like you've
been here for a while and you feel the way youfeel and like this is a good maybe chance to
explore other opportunities.
That's a really good question.
And I think that it's hard because I watchpeople either stay too long or stay not long
(20:35):
enough.
And it isn't perfect.
I would just say if you are thinking aboutleaving, like, you know, sometimes leaving or
doing something different comes through yourmind and a human's mind, you know, here and
there at a bad moment, whatever.
If you're thinking about it every day, it'sprobably a sign.
Like, you're thinking about and you're, youknow, you're it comes to your mind every day,
(20:55):
that might be a like, maybe it's time for me.
And I'm talking about, like, if you wanna judgejob change.
I I think is that what you're saying?
Like Yeah.
For sure.
What about what about, when we're talking abouthigh level, partner, CEO, owner of a place?
Like, sure.
They are obviously anchored very differentlythan a general employee to the the business,
but what about them?
Like, how do they know?
(21:16):
Hey.
Maybe this isn't the thing for
Well, that is a whole not so let's talk aboutthat.
First of all, when do you think you shouldstart planning?
Like, Justin, when do you think you shouldstart planning for a transition or a
succession?
Like, when when?
I think, I think the answer answer is likesooner than you think is probably, is probably
somewhere in that ballpark.
(21:36):
What I know is five years is not long enough,like maybe ten years out before you think that,
Hey, you know, I think I want to retire.
I want do something else or whatever that kindof looks like in that transition.
It's got, it's a long time.
That's, that's what I would know.
But you can tell me.
Yeah.
I think it's never too early.
People say average is somewhere between fiveand ten years for succession.
(21:58):
I think it's probably ten, especially if you'rean owner and you need to be thinking about
that, but at least five.
And also just short term contingency plan.
Like what if you were hit by a bus tomorrow?
What is the plan?
Like, do you have a plan in your company?
Because that is something you should havemapped out if you don't today.
Like the really important kind of a seriousthing, important.
(22:20):
And then I would just say, Justin, we are, it'shard, but time, I hate to sound like a broken
record, but time is shorter than you think.
Ten years can go by pretty quickly.
Maybe it doesn't feel like that when you're 25,but at 53, which as I am right now, where I am
right now, I feel like, wow, ten years canglide by.
(22:40):
And I think that if we don't plan what we want,then we don't get it.
And so I think as an owner, as an executive,I'm thinking about, you know, anyone in that
capacity or, or, you know, where you are, youshould be thinking about like, where do you
want to spend your time?
And what's your, do you have a next chapterthat you want to live?
(23:01):
And if that's the case, our average lifespan is80 years old.
Granted, we're all gonna live to be a hundred,right?
So we've got more time.
But if that is the case, like I'm just gonnaput myself in that, in those shoes.
I'm 53.
So if my life span is to 80, guess what?
I am in the August of my life.
(23:22):
So I am over the halfway mark of my life.
You're probably in June, like the June, lateJune, right?
halfway through.
That's almost, almost completely halfwaythrough.
So I don't think we have a hard time as humansreally facing that.
And so I just would say sooner than later andbe on the offense, not the defense, because
(23:46):
otherwise life's gonna just hit you withsomething and it might be a health thing or it
might be something else.
And then all of a sudden you don't have controland you're not managing the narrative.
And I think the other thing is just havedifferent identities.
I think that there's a lot of identity for allof us connected with work and being a
professional, and that's really important andawesome and do it.
(24:07):
You know, everyone's different, but think aboutwhat other identities you want because there
are more to life as well.
So hopefully that helps.
Also a difficult, transition, of identitycrisis.
So and I think we've talked about this beforewhere, you know, your kids leave.
Right?
Like, know, you have kids.
They eventually go off to do their thing whereyou were their complete caregiver.
(24:29):
You know, as they get older, they're they'rebetter, but like you're still the, you know,
pay all the bills, do all the things, you know,give them a house, all this stuff.
And eventually they're just gone.
Right?
It's not like they are, you know, gone fromyour life completely, but it's like for the
first eighteen years, you spend eighteen yearswith them.
And then like the rest of their lives, youspend maybe a year with them, which is crazy.
Like, that's a that's a unbelievable thing Ithink about, and my son's only five.
(24:53):
So that transition from like, I'm the everydaycaregiver, you know, every, you know, you know,
parent compared to now I'm just, you know,waiting for grandkids.
Like, it's it's a it's a different game then.
Right?
Like, maybe not too quickly after 18, but,like, eventually, you can come back around and
be like, oh, I get to do the the grandpa orgrandma thing, which is cool, but that identity
(25:16):
does change.
It it it's really hard.
And for somebody say somebody that wasn'tworking and was just being a fully, you know,
parent full time parent, like that's theiralmost whole identity.
And like to have that evaporate one day is likescary.
Same thing with business owners, right?
You have a business and then you sold thatbusiness after thirty, forty years.
(25:38):
What, who are you now is the question.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a really good point.
Number one on the parenting thing, we spend allof our time planning to have children if we, if
you do decide to have or stepchildren or, orwhat adopt.
And that, but we know one really plans for whenthey leave, which they will, especially if
you're doing, you know, what you should,they're gonna And so I think that you should
(25:59):
have a plan because it'll make it better forthem and you.
And I think there's an opportunity for all ofus to have multiple chapters over our lives to
do all these things.
And so yes, going back to the identity of anowner in a business or an executive, I know I
have friends with a very, very successfulexecutive coach and she gets brought in when a
company is gonna get acquired by anotherorganization.
(26:21):
And she can tell whether they're really gonna,the owner's really gonna give it up and do the
deal or not by how they act and if howconnected to their identity the business is,
because in the end it can be so much money andthey don't, they can't let go.
It's like a part of who they are.
And so I think it's just awareness.
I would just say self awareness, selfawareness, like be aware of who you are, what
(26:44):
you want.
Maybe you want to work until you drop dead.
I don't know.
That's okay.
But make sure if that's not what you want,spend some time planning.
I think of it like Michael Jordan, and you canrelate to this as a, as a fellow, as a Chicago
native.
He went out on top.
Like, am I wrong?
That guy went out on top.
(27:04):
He went out on top, but then came back and thenwent out on top again and then came back again.
But, yes, I completely agree.
He's the greatest of all time.
There's no question.
He he managed his narrative.
Like, he managed that narrative.
And I my dream for myself and and for anyoneout there is like, manage your narrative.
Like, manage go out when when you're good in agood place and you managed how you wanted to do
(27:28):
it.
Don't let it happen to you.
Don't let stuff just happen to you.
So no, kind of that's kind of hard, hard, hardconversation, but
Hard conversations are the ones we need to havemore of in my opinion.
I think about when I worked at a law firm andseeing attorneys work into their eighties.
And I thought to myself, I'm like, that'scrazy.
(27:48):
Like, would you do that now?
Hey, like, if your, you know, core purpose inlife is, you know, to be an attorney, the
greatest attorney and all those, however youwant to phrase that.
Sure.
But like, there's, there's something to be saidabout the other aspects of life.
And especially once you get into certainly intoyour eighties, where you've, I call it rolling
(28:08):
the credits, right?
Like you're, you're, you're already post creditright now.
You're waiting for maybe another scene, butthat that's it.
So I've seen it on both hands where some peopleare like, no, I want to close-up early.
Like I want, you know, I want to be done by thetime I'm 53.
Right.
And like, that's now I'm going to go off and domy own thing or whatever that looks like.
So yeah, I guess it's something personal, butto the point of succession, like what should
(28:32):
that start looking like in that five to tenyear plan?
Like what should owners, executives startlooking at in that time?
So I am not gonna, I'm not gonna pretend to bean expert in this category.
I can only give you my thoughts.
So just know that because I, but I would, Iwould definitely talk to a professional who
works with owners like this.
I'm sure there are people out there who do, butI would just say, listen, you gotta have, have
(28:56):
you identified who could be your successor orare you developing more than one person in your
company?
What is your plan as a company get to get sold?
At that point, you should be talking to like,what are your options?
And think about that ahead.
So that's, that's what I would say is like planahead and hey, if you're, if you're doing great
and you want to keep going great, but at leastyou have a plan if something changes on a dime.
(29:19):
Then I think you could, you should assess it.
You should keep assessing it and forcingyourself to look at it every year, every two
years, because things could change very, veryrapidly.
Was trying to think there was a story that Ihad. Like
a Like
a business plan where it's like you, you make aplan whenever you do your strategic planning,
and then in the next quarter, you go back andyou look at it, alright, hey, where are we at
(29:39):
with the plan?
And like, sometimes it's like, we found a wholedifferent service line, so the plan is
completely different now.
Or, you know, you find out like, oh, we're justnot we're not doing the plan.
We are not on track.
So we need to get back on track.
So I concur with that.
I think business life is very much, you justhave to actually systematize it, right?
You have to think what's the structure I'mlooking for to get to the thing I want to go to
(30:02):
and then check-in.
Hey, am I am I on, you know, track or am I noton track?
And if I'm not, why is that the case?
And let's fix that.
Or is the trajectory where we wanted to go notthe north star anymore?
Right?
Like that, that always comes to that.
Right.
Right.
And, and get people in your, your, I would callit like your board of directors, like your,
(30:23):
your trust little, you know, board of directorsor community of trust to be honest with you and
tell you what's up if you don't want to hear iteven about where you are and what might be
going on and what you might be hanging ontothat you shouldn't.
And then I think you should.
It's not an urgent thing.
It doesn't feel urgent.
So people put it off, but then it's reallyimportant.
(30:46):
And so then if you don't, then it's soimportant that you, to me, it's like legacy,
what do you want for your legacy?
Which people should be thinking about.
Like, it's not too early to think about that aswell.
So.
No.
I love I love that.
I I feel like there's two camps.
Think about legacy for people that youshouldn't think about it at all.
And for me, I'm like, well, if you're trying tocreate a thing in any aspect of life, you have
(31:10):
to think it.
Like that's to me is like, that's the only way.
During COVID, it was 2020, November of '20 '20,I just looked this up the other day.
I wrote my eulogy, right?
Like, so I wrote this eulogy of like, Hey, whenI cash out at 80, I think I said 80 or 81 or
something, I have X amount of time until thatpoint.
Here's what I'd like somebody to say about mewhen I'm gone.
It'd be really great if I achieved all thesethings in life, but that's the way I start
(31:33):
looking at like my legacy of like, Hey, if Igot to here, that would be an amazing legacy
for me.
Now I just have to work it backwards and saylike, okay, well, if I wanna do start a
nonprofit and I have not done that yet, well,time's ticking.
Right?
Like, and now it doesn't mean you have to doeverything all at once, but you have to start
setting the blocks in place to eventually havethat beautiful legacy at the end of days.
(31:56):
I you're so wise.
I was thinking about this because I've hadexperiences like recently.
So I have a grandfather who lived to be 99 and
worked until he was 90 That's good for you,Jen.
You're well on your way to a hundred.
Well, he worked until he was 92.
He was in a different job.
Alright.
But
(32:16):
he he loved going to the office every day.
So that was really awesome.
And still, you know, all the way up, verysmart.
And then I my mom, I lost.
She was 72.
And she worked all the way.
And she kept saying, well, I'm gonna work untilI'm 70.
I'm gonna work until I'm 70.
And cause she wanted to get more money forsocial security.
And so she spent all this time working.
(32:36):
And then she had a disease and didn't make it.
So I kind of feel like we don't know.
Like in the end, we don't know what our path isgoing to be.
So I think we have to live it as best we can.
Don't waste time on like, make sure you'refocused in doing the things you wanna do.
And that means working too and doing the kindof work that you love.
(32:58):
And if you're not happy, you have agency tomake a change.
You always have agency to make a change.
And I wanna make sure I stress that because Ithink people get stuck in this victim sometimes
like I can't leave.
And I feel like, no, you can with a plan.
Preach, Jen.
Preach.
That's what I'm talking about.
Very sorry to hear about your mom.
That I can only imagine being a very rough timejust in in life, which I've certainly not
(33:24):
experienced yet.
But assuming I outlive my mom, that's that's apart of the life cycle, which is unfortunate
for us.
I would be, remiss if I didn't ask about,specifically if you have any in the AEC space,
all my building scale friends and and all allof our clientele and all that stuff.
Love to tell me how labor shortage is massivein the, the construction space specifically.
(33:48):
And it's really hard to find people.
In fact, I hear that more often than not acrossindustries now.
It's like, it's just super hard to find people,which I mean, I guess our birth rates are
somewhat down, but I feel like I can't have hadquite the quick turn that that would be.
So what are you seeing as an expert?
Yeah.
When I look at our generations, actually, it'snot I think the Gen X generation is smaller,
(34:10):
but if you look at millennials, gen Z, and thenthe gen alpha that's coming, it's around the
same.
It's I think it's around 72,000,000.
So they're not, it's not that different.
What I think is going on, there's a couplethings We don't have as The United States, we
don't really have an apprenticeship culture,which is a really a bummer.
We used to, but I think that there are some,there's some great talent that you kind of get
(34:37):
pushed on us in a certain direction ineducation.
And there's probably some great talent,especially in the construction and the trades,
etcetera, that really could be developed.
So I, my answer is go start early.
If you can get interns, early in terms of evenhigh school with people and see what you can do
(34:59):
there because you might be able to get somedevelopment, get some great candidates in that
category, if you can do it.
Number two would be think differently or thinkabout if possible, like some of your positions,
I know you need a certain education and acertain background and I get that.
But where you can maybe earlier stage or withdifferent roles, can you look at different
industries?
(35:19):
So that could be relatable.
Like one of the trends I'm seeing is inconstruction, people looking at manufacturing
people and people that have really awesomemanufacturing best practices because there's so
much efficiency and operational efficiency inmanufacturing that could be incredibly valuable
when we're trying, when your costs are up, yourmaterials are up, your labor is up.
(35:42):
So that leads into prefab facilities andbuilding out modular homes or modular pieces in
in a plant setting.
So I think there's a really interesting meldthat's going on between those two categories,
which I think is awesome.
And there's big problems to solve for an AEC.
(36:03):
I think there's huge problems to solve, whichmeans opportunities.
So Well, yeah.
I exciting.
No.
I I completely agree.
I see the shortage of labor where you'retalking about like, hey.
Like, for a superintendent or, you know,somebody that's on the job, even a journeyman,
tradesman, like those are, you can't just, youknow, wave the wand and now you have a ton of
them, right?
Like there's not, there's just not that manybecause we, we have a deficit on the backlog of
(36:26):
them.
Now, sure.
We're doing programs that are getting,hopefully getting more, kids, and, and women
specifically.
I know a bunch of organizations that are tryingto, Hey, women in the trades kind of
organizations.
Like, that's great.
That's awesome for future.
But like today we're like stuck in this thing,which then I started thinking to your point,
like, well, then you're probably to have tochange the process.
Like you can't change the amount of peoplebecause they just, they're currently not
(36:48):
available.
Like it's just, you can't manufacture peopleovernight, at least not the ones with the
experience.
So that you started saying like, well, modularor prefab things that are done on a
manufacturing floor in comparison to on the jobsite changes the whole game because now you
don't need to have that super skilled labor onthe floor that you wouldn't necessarily on a
job site.
And you're able to do things at scale becausenow it's, oh, we can put X amount of these
(37:13):
modular bathrooms or whatever it is togetherand then push them out.
So no, I think that you're totally spot on thator AI and robotics.
One of those is going to catch up fast enough.
And then that's going to be, or probably ablend of both.
And that's going to be part of our solutions.
Actually, that's a good question.
People are always worried about AI in theirjobs.
Like that seems like a thing I hear all thetime too.
(37:34):
What's your thoughts on that?
Are people's jobs gone now because we havereally smart computers?
No, I think what you've probably heard thisbefore.
I think it's more that your role may change andit may get better.
So I feel like it's, it's, there's still, italways creates more opportunities.
It's just the job may be different or actuallymore enticing for people.
(37:56):
So be thinking about jobs in a different waycould be really appealing.
And in the end, we've got big The problems wehave to solve, we have a deficit of supply.
Like, I don't know, it's a really wide rangebetween 9,000,000 units residential affordable
housing we are We are just in a deficit with,that's a big problem.
(38:17):
We have zoning issues.
That's a big problem.
We have labor shortage.
We have materials.
So we've got like not enough supply.
And then how are we gonna produce for the rightamount of money?
So I think, hey, all of you people out there,whoever's gonna solve these problems, they're
gonna do really well and be really, reallysuccessful.
And the one thing I was gonna say about talentthat I think is really important, talent is
(38:40):
evenly distributed across gender, across race,across socioeconomic status.
Like there is talent everywhere, but it's partof like finding the people and getting them
developed.
So I think we have to think differently.
An example I would give is that I had a womanwho is an HR executive in organizational
(39:04):
development.
We figured out that she was actually anexecutive, like more of a CEO type and through
some testing and development and she ultimatelyis COO today.
But without like she had the skills, she hadthe talent, but she just needed the skills.
Like she needed to get there.
So I think there are people in yourorganization who might be amazing.
(39:25):
You just don't know it.
They're quietly there.
They haven't been developed.
So I think there's untapped potential and youcan do some work on testing and evaluating and
assessing people to help develop them as welland find out what they might be good at.
Well, how do how does one go No.
I love that.
No.
Speak the truth.
So that's that's all good.
(39:45):
How do how do you test it?
Like, because I'm so people y, that's the wordI'm gonna use, people y.
Since I'm so people y, it's more of like, forme, I'm always like, I'm gonna talk to people
and then I'm gonna get a good vibe upon how I,you know, our experience I have with them.
And then I'll say like, oh, you would be greatto be our account executive in comparison to,
(40:06):
an engineer, right?
Like you, you are just more socially skilled.
Like, I mean, that's essentially an engineer'sgenerally not the most, social butterflies by
any means.
But Hey, like if I find one that is, it's like,oh, there's probably something else that you
could do that one, you'll probably like morebecause it's more natural to you.
But then two, you would be like a rock star at,which would then be amazing for us.
(40:27):
So like, I understand it that way as in thepeople y way, but is there more of actual
process or test or system that somebody coulduse, to identify those things?
Yes.
So that is a really good point.
I, yes, you know, you do talk to people, youinterview people, you figure out what they're
good at.
That's all good.
But there are some elements that help you finddeeper level data and that could be
(40:51):
assessments.
And for example, there's a couple ofassessments, although there's 25 I could
probably name, but I recently got certified inColby, is Love Colby.
They yeah.
So they are focused on how the conative part ofthe brain, which is basically how we do things.
And what's cool about that is it's it's a nonbiased test.
(41:14):
So it's not about what you think or feel.
It's about how.
And there's some ways that you can We can getinto this at some point, but it's just like
figuring out what the job is and then how theperson is a fit.
There's also predictive index, which is alsoreally awesome.
So I feel like if you're in an org, those typesof things like getting involved with someone
who can really help you understand people'sstrengths, do some analysis on the team and
(41:39):
where you are, it can be super powerful inthinking about who you hire next, but also
thinking about who you already have on yourteam that could be good in a different role
that you're not even thinking about yet.
So I think it's just an opportunity to getreally creative and think of it as an
opportunity versus I know it's a problem, butit can also be a really awesome opportunity for
people if you, if you, if you create the rightsituation for it.
(42:03):
That goes back to the right seat count content,right?
It's just like, you're the right person, butyou're currently not in the best seat for it.
Maybe it's not like the wrong seat, but it'slike, we're at like, you know, 70% production
from you just because it's not the right seat.
But, man, if I move you over to this otherseat, now we're at, like, a % production or
what whatever number.
The increase in production is is so muchhigher.
(42:24):
So that makes perfect sense to me.
Yeah.
Let me give you a little example that might beSure.
Tangible.
So I just met with a woman in the last twoweeks.
She has been struggling with her job.
I think she feels really depleted, and we didsome testing.
So we did the Kolbe A, and I did a readout forher.
We talked about it.
And what we figured out was it wasn't about thejob, but we figured out her environment was
(42:48):
exhausting her because it was a lot of change,like constant change, constant client change,
and a lot of ambiguity.
And what we figured out from her profile isthat she actually does better with a more like
knowing those variables and then she thrives.
And so we so we kinda unhooked it and wefigured it out.
(43:08):
Like if she was on a client for like a longterm client, she would be, it would be like in
her perfect natural zone of thriving.
And so that's the kind of stuff where if that'sa little thing, but it could be huge in terms
of like having your employees perform in theirin their best self and create less turnover or
(43:31):
less frustration for people.
So it's really cool.
It's such great stuff and I love it.
So I'm in I guess I'm in this really creatingawareness for people stage.
Self awareness.
I love that.
We need more of that.
So keep doing the thing you're doing.
This has been a ton of fun.
I'm gonna throw all your social and all thatfun stuff in the show notes.
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
(43:54):
Yeah.
Jen@booksfansearch.com.
Or you can find me on LinkedIn.
Yeah.
Awesome.
And then would you like to tell people forsure.
Would you like to tell the people anything elsebefore, we say our goodbyes?
I think we're good.
Hey.
I I'm just excited.
And if you you guys need help or you need tounlock something or figure something out, I'm
happy to to help.
(44:14):
It's it's a it's an honor to be here.
Justin, thank you for the time, and I lovetalking about this stuff.
So thank you for giving me some time with this.
No.
Absolutely.
This was a ton of fun.
Love these episodes because it's just I don'tknow.
It's just really, really relaxing fun and justit's good just knowledge just knowledge gained
(44:34):
for me, you know, selfishly, totally selfishlyfor me.
But then, for anybody listening, I just I lovepushing out content that's gonna be, usable
and, like, people that are actually gonna get,like, benefit and value and impact from it.
So, this has been great.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Yep.
Alright, listeners.
Until next time.
Peace out.
(44:56):
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(45:18):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
One is the recruiting process in general incorporate America, in any company for the
(00:08):
candidate.
The candidate experience is pretty shitty.
I'm just gonna be straight with you.
I hear about it.
I don't care if you're a CEO.
I don't care if you're a staff accountant.
People call me all the time to vent becausethey went through three interviews.
They invested ten hours of time.
They went through the six week process.
(00:28):
And then guess what?
They just got ghosted.
Like Yeah.
Dropped off.
Have
you ever wondered how successful architecture,engineering, and construction companies scale
their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
(00:49):
Hi.
I'm Will Forret.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
(01:11):
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us see where we can help
maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
(01:34):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of BuildingScale, specifically the Building Connections
series where I get to hang out and talk withpeople I meet in my everyday life here in
Phoenix.
Amazing leaders, owners of businesses, all thatfun jazz, and, Jennifer Bookspan is definitely
(02:00):
one of those.
When I asked, you know, I always ask who youare.
Give me a little intro so I can really give alot a lot more meat on the bone in these intros
that I give them.
Company builder, talent innovator, peopleleader, and recruitment strategist is how she
described herself, which I love because as thechief storyteller at Spot Migration, I get a
(02:22):
lot of, like, I'm the basic title of thing.
Right?
But not Jen.
She's like, no.
No.
No.
No.
I'm I'm a company builder, a talent innovator,people leader, and recruitment strategist.
She really kinda sends it home with the storyis what I like to think.
And she's been doing, recruiting for overtwenty years.
So she's fiercely committed to finding the bestpeople and putting them in the right seats,
(02:45):
which as a new US company here at Spot, we loveright people, right seats inherently.
I met Jen through, Keymakers, a networkingorganization here in Phoenix, and it was kind
of this fun conversation we had at a aballgame, a Diamondbacks game, and then I've
had multiple conversations since then.
And it's always good to see her when I do,which is not nearly enough.
(03:06):
But nonetheless, I got I got her to hop on thepodcast and and tell us a little bit about what
she sees, some trends that are happening in theindustry, how you find great people, when to
know when to move on to the next stage, or, youknow, even when you're talking about the,
succession planning and what that looks likefor leaders.
So, it was just really great conversation, and,I'm sure you're gonna enjoy it as well.
(03:28):
So with all that said, here's me and Jen.
Jen, I love people so much, unbelievably muchthat I need to ask about the who instead of the
role.
Like, why hire the who is essentially, I guess,the question I have.
Yeah.
So that is a really good question.
I love what we're talking about today
because this is
right in my, I think it's important foreveryone.
(03:49):
So I think a lot of people spend a lot of timethinking about what they need to get done with
their work, whether it's they're running acompany, they're a leader, they're running a
team, and they do a lot of thinking about what,what, what, what needs to get done, what needs
to be built, what, what hasn't beenaccomplished.
And I don't think people spend enough time onwho instead of what.
(04:12):
And the book I am referencing is Who Not How.
And it's a really short book.
It's by Dan Campbell.
I highly recommend it for anyone in that kindof a capacity because you should be thinking
about who you are, what you bring to the table,but who can accomplish things for you to make
you more, your organization more powerful, yourcompany more powerful, instead of thinking that
(04:35):
you do it all because you can't and you'll endup in a, as a one arm paper clip.
You won't be able to accomplish So Who Not Howby Dan Campbell.
And I think that thinking about that is, isreally what gets you into thinking about
recruiting, which is what I do.
Yeah.
We, so we grew a bunch, last year.
So we are COO, effectively that's the seat shesits in, is doing our recruiting.
(04:59):
She is pulling her hair out a bunch is theeasiest way to put it.
A little bit to our fault for growing so fast.
You know, this is the issue of like, wants togrow fast.
And then once you actually start growing fast,you just start realizing all the problems, not
just even the hiring aspect of it, which isHerculean as it is, but then like, oh yeah,
there's like 58 processes that you thought youhad that are just totally broken now because
(05:21):
you're growing too fast.
So, very much in that mindset.
So I definitely gonna check out the book andcertainly give to Kosh to say, Hey, something
to, you know, feel as we continue to growbecause in my heart of why stop, you know, even
though Kosha's losing her mind a little bit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyways, one thing that I always think ofwhen I think about hiring and, it kind of comes
into this, you know, how do you build thatteam?
(05:44):
Like how do you get a team and how do you knowthe who's that you're looking for maybe is the
first question that should be asked.
Yeah, that's a really good point.
I love that you guys are hiring.
It's very exciting.
And what I would just say is there's a fewsimple things, not simple, but simple, not
easy.
Simple, but
not easy.
(06:04):
Simple, but not easy.
Right.
I think it's really important that you know andreally work on who you are looking like, what
the role is and really get serious about thatand be clear about what you need versus what
you want.
Because if you get sometimes if things get tooout of hand, you're never gonna find that
person.
(06:24):
It's like a purple unicorn.
So I think it's important to be clear on that.
And then alignment, alignment, alignment.
Can I say that word again?
Alignment.
Aligned with your team on what it is you'relooking for, because that is probably the
number one issue I see with companies and teamsis the, you know, the CFO is off wanting to
hire or a director of sales wants to go hiresomeone, but they're not aligned as a group or
(06:46):
the CEO has a vision.
But if you don't get your team on the bus, thenit's a waste of time and money.
The person that you bring on, you can just seedown the road where it's going to go.
So even though it's work, please alignment, getalignment on what you're looking for.
And then I think that one of the things I thinkabout, especially with a startup or a growing
company, but it could be for any company isthink about not only what you need today, but
(07:11):
what you're going to need.
What's that role going to be in six months or ayear?
Because sometimes the role today is is fairlytactical, but it might get really, it might
just become much more complex and you may wantto be thinking about hiring for where it's
going to be in six months or someone who has acapacity versus just thinking about, well,
(07:32):
this, this is what the job is today.
And so that's hard, but I think it's importantto think through.
That goes through the challenge of not overhiring as in the amount of people, but over
hiring for a position like, especially whenyou're smaller and you start saying like, I
need somebody really to oversee finances, or Ineed somebody to really oversee sales, or
(07:52):
whatever it is that the thing that you'reyou're trying to offload because you're doing
everything or, you know, a small chunk of youare doing everything.
What's that balance though?
Because like, hey, like, technically, we needthese things today and maybe in the next six
months.
But like, I also need you're down the roadhere.
I'm gonna need them to be a lot more strategic.
Right?
So like, one, how do you sell that concept tosomebody that that is going to have those
(08:16):
qualifications instead of trying to grow themand, and, you know, really groom them into the,
the thing you're trying to get out of them?
How do you get them to buy in to like, Hey, I'mgoing to come do this.
I know the first, you know, six months to ayear might be a little beneath me or a little
lower than what I like to do, but the upside isthe future.
(08:37):
Very good question.
Part of it has to do with if the person youwanna be honest, of course, because that's what
you're getting.
But if people have experiences with startups orexperiences where there was a, where they were
involved with a massive growth situation, thinkit's ideal because they know where this goes or
where it could go in a period of time.
So I think getting some clarity on that.
(08:58):
And I think someone who maybe doesn't have allthe experience that you are going to need in
six months, but has the capacity that wants totake it on.
So there's a couple of different ways you canlook at it, but clearly, you do not want to be
dishonest about where it's going.
And so I've seen it happen.
I've seen mistakes happen where you you makethe easy decision to hire someone that can do
(09:23):
the job today.
But in six months, that person's way over theirhead And you have have to manage the situation
and get someone else and it's not good.
So it's like a balance.
But so I would just say, I think not to be on atoo much of a tangent, but part of what I look
for in people is like what stage of a companyare they really like?
(09:43):
Do they shine?
Like where do they fit?
Because some people are really good at theearly stage.
Some people are really good at that middle likescale stage.
Some people are really good at servicing, finetuning, doing more that's already well
established.
And I think know who you are, know where youbelong and think about people and where they,
where they might be, because not everyone'sgoing to be good for every company forever.
(10:06):
Yeah.
That's, be honest with yourself too, right?
Like, where is your company at?
Like everybody wants to grow, but like, are youactually hitting growth?
Like, are you doing the thing that you, youbelieve you want to be?
And lots of times, I see this a ton where I'llgo to conferences, you know, industry
conferences and things like that.
And everybody in the room claims that they wantto grow, but then I'll see them again the next
(10:29):
year.
And it'll be like, yep, still doing the samething I was doing last year and not, not, not
actually growing in comparison to like somepeople you're like, oh man, like, you've made
unbelievable strides in a year.
Like, it's like, holy crap.
So being honest with yourself is probablyreally important.
We believe in core values very, very deeply atSpot.
And hiring, promoting, firing, all thesedifferent things kind of go through our core
(10:51):
values, you know, essentially glass of of likelooking through the the looking glass.
Where where do you see core values in playhere?
Obviously, you have to find the right personfor that role.
Right?
There's a component there.
The right seat is what we call it in The US,but like finding the right person, like just,
you're the right human being for us.
And sometimes that means you're not the righthuman being for us right now because we, the
(11:16):
skill set that you have, we don't quite need,or we've passed skill set?
That is really good.
I think that is a big point.
And I love that your core values are very muchlike leading out through, through who you are
because when I think about hiring and if I'm acompany and I don't care if I'm a one person
company or 10,000 person company, I need to bewho I am and I need to represent that.
(11:40):
And that means to me, like lean into, hey, ifyou are, you guys aren't the top payers in the
world, but you have a great, like you're,you're, you have a real development culture and
people really have a lot of advancementopportunity if they do well, or you don't have
a lot of bureaucracy, sell what you are, notwhat you hope to be or that you think people
(12:02):
are going to want to hear.
Cause you're going to show up like Justin, justthink about this like dating.
Like you're going to be who you you're going toshow up tomorrow as who you are.
You can pretend for a while, but that Justin'sgoing to show up.
And so I just feel like companies need to ownwho they are and be who they are when they're,
and represent themselves really clearly whenthey're interviewing, when they're attracting
(12:23):
candidates, because it's just, you're going todeter the people that are not jiving.
They're not on your vibe.
Like they don't not.
It's just going be a natural thing.
And it's much more likely that you're going toland and you're going have people that get it,
understand where you are, can be flexible withwhere your situation is, and they're going to
be excited about it.
So that's all the way through the recruitingprocess, how you represent yourselves,
(12:47):
onboarding, which I can talk about too, buthopefully that helps.
I think that's a big deal.
Think of it as dating.
That's what helps.
So I, other than my wife, I've not dated in avery long time, but I understand the concept of
it makes sense of sense because I frequentlythink about this, this happened to me, where I
was writing emails and I I'm very energetic.
(13:08):
I'm very exclamation points in my emails.
This is just who I am.
Like, it and I remember asking Kasha again,man, Kasha is on my mind apparently today.
I remember asking her, I'm saying like, hey.
Like, do you think this is coming off, like,cheesy or, like, too salesy or, like, this
whole thing?
And I remember her asking me, she's like, well,do you feel that way?
Like, is that how you feel?
Like, is that are you really excited?
(13:28):
I'm like, yeah.
I'm just that's just me.
I don't know how else it's me.
And she's like, well, then just do that.
Because at the end of the day, getting somebodyin your ecosphere or, you know, in your
connections, your network, They're, they'reeventually gonna know that like, oh, Justin's
super like bubbly and loud and exciting.
And like, that is you.
And if they don't like that, they're eventuallygonna find that out either way.
(13:52):
So why not just in the beginning of arelationship, let them be aware that like,
yeah, this is what I am.
This is who I am.
This is what you're getting.
So yeah, that that makes sense to say.
Yeah.
100%.
And obviously let's have a caveat.
We all need to evolve.
There's some, you know, people are doing somebad behaviors.
We don't want that.
But I also feel like you have to lean into whoyou are naturally.
(14:15):
So I think that that is, that is probably thetheme for me right now is helping people lean
into who they are and companies lean into whothey are.
And it, it just is, it really sets you up forsuccess as well.
And I wanted to mention, so we talked about alittle bit of like figuring out what you want
and what you need and the recruiting process.
And there's just two little things that I feellike could be game changers if I'm a company.
(14:40):
One is the recruiting process in general incorporate America, in any company for the
candidate.
The candidate experience is pretty shitty.
I'm just gonna be straight with you.
I hear about it.
I don't care if you're a CEO.
I don't care if you're a staff accountant.
People call me all the time to vent becausethey went through three interviews.
(15:03):
They invested ten hours of time.
They went through the six week process and thenguess what?
They just got ghosted.
Like dropped off.
And it happens way more than you ever want toknow.
And I don't think people understand it untilthey've experienced it personally.
It's a very difficult thing.
I feel like people just communicate, justcommunicate, just let people go.
(15:26):
If they're not going to be, you know, betransparent as best you can communicate when
people are not, they will love you for itbecause they're going to remember you're going
to stand out compared to most every othercompany that has the shittiest of shitty ways
of communicating to candidates.
So just FYI on that.
And then the other thing I wanted to mention,which is kind of boring people.
It's something that's overlooked a lot isonboarding.
(15:48):
And the reason I say that you spend all thistime, you get out, you get this person, right?
Their first day, it's like you're spending allthis time wooing them.
Marry them and then you kind of drop them andsay, here you go.
And it is like, seriously, I think twenty threepercent of people leave within the first year.
(16:10):
And part of it has to do with onboarding andsixty nine percent of people, if they have a
positive experience will stay for three yearsor more.
So The
obvious question is what does good onboardinglook like then?
Certainly, when we think of it's spot, likecandid is one of our core values.
(16:31):
So maybe sometimes we, you know, we gotta reelthat in to a degree because being too candid
sometimes can be too detrimental, but that'sthe life we live.
So we always wanna give people feedback andlike say, this is good, bad, why you got hired,
why there's an issue, all those differentthings.
But onboarding, that's a thing that I'd love tohear more about.
I don't want someone to think that you have toplan a twelve week mapped out process where,
(16:56):
you know, that training.
I'm thinking more like have a plan.
Who do they need to meet?
What systems they need to learn?
How who's gonna teach it to them?
As your leader, are you gonna do weekly checkins or daily like maybe the first week, daily
check ins, and then have a plan.
Take them to lunch.
Make sure they have connections or connectionpoints that first week or two.
(17:18):
Who are their key partners?
Coach them, like give them, to me it's likeinvestment.
It's like, you know, you've just made this hugeinvestment, invest in them because the success
rate is super high.
And it doesn't mean, like I said, I'm notexpecting this itinerary that is super complex
and every minute is, is dialed down.
I just think you have to have a plan because itshows you care.
(17:40):
And then they're gonna feel that they havesomething to go by.
And what I would, I would do the reverse ofthat is when I am, when I've placed someone,
you know, when I give them, what advice I givethem when they go to work and I don't care what
level it is.
You are going to feel dumb for at least sixmonths.
Lean into it because you're just gonna feeldumb because you don't know where the bathroom
(18:01):
is.
You don't know the systems.
You don't know the people.
I think you forget what that's like if youhaven't been a new hire in a long time.
So help them, give them resources so that theyfeel good and that you care.
So I probably went on that for too long, but Ican't stress it enough because I think people
just overlook that as a part that is reallyimportant.
(18:23):
I think, first impressions, right?
Like we, we talk about this, in sales all thetime.
Like what is the fir or when you get a newclient, like that first impression, like when
we onboard a new client, it's like, that is ahuge crucial moment in our relationship for the
next however long they're with us.
Three years, five years, like, that is such ahuge differentiation.
(18:46):
So it makes sense internally too.
Right?
It's like somebody that you have, you know, inthe in the talent acquisition aspect, you sold
them onto your company to come on in and joinyour team.
Now you have to deliver an experience to towhatever degree that is.
But one, it has to also be true.
You know, you talked about, like, the wooingand then dropping off.
Like, it has to be still true to what you soldthem.
(19:09):
But then also like, think about just having aplan.
Like, hey, like, it's not just, oh, we need anew person to, you know, run payroll or
whatever.
And it's like, sure, we'll hire them.
And then they'll just try to figure things out.
It's like, that's a recipe for disaster.
Yeah.
I just had a leader talk to me yesterday whowas sold really hard on a company, went to work
(19:29):
for them.
After a month said, Jen, this was like a baitand switch.
Like what they told me and what was, was sodifferent.
So it's easy to sell.
It's easy to talk, but actions are whatmatters.
And you know what?
We're evaluating candidates all the time whenwe're in a process like, are they on time?
Are they prepared?
(19:50):
Do they ask the right questions?
Do they have the experience?
Like we are always assessing candidates, butcandidates are also assessing companies.
And I think that it's like how you have to lookat yourself.
And it doesn't mean we're perfect.
No one's perfect.
Everyone messes up sometimes, but have a planand or have someone help you with a plan if
you're not the best at planning.
So
(20:10):
No, for sure.
What, what about the other way?
Like when does, when do you know when it's timeto make a change?
Like when, when is, maybe some signs, someindicators that says like, Hey, like you've
been here for a while and you feel the way youfeel and like this is a good maybe chance to
explore other opportunities.
That's a really good question.
And I think that it's hard because I watchpeople either stay too long or stay not long
(20:35):
enough.
And it isn't perfect.
I would just say if you are thinking aboutleaving, like, you know, sometimes leaving or
doing something different comes through yourmind and a human's mind, you know, here and
there at a bad moment, whatever.
If you're thinking about it every day, it'sprobably a sign.
Like, you're thinking about and you're, youknow, you're it comes to your mind every day,
(20:55):
that might be a like, maybe it's time for me.
And I'm talking about, like, if you wanna judgejob change.
I I think is that what you're saying?
Like Yeah.
For sure.
What about what about, when we're talking abouthigh level, partner, CEO, owner of a place?
Like, sure.
They are obviously anchored very differentlythan a general employee to the the business,
but what about them?
Like, how do they know?
(21:16):
Hey.
Maybe this isn't the thing for
Well, that is a whole not so let's talk aboutthat.
First of all, when do you think you shouldstart planning?
Like, Justin, when do you think you shouldstart planning for a transition or a
succession?
Like, when when?
I think, I think the answer answer is likesooner than you think is probably, is probably
somewhere in that ballpark.
(21:36):
What I know is five years is not long enough,like maybe ten years out before you think that,
Hey, you know, I think I want to retire.
I want do something else or whatever that kindof looks like in that transition.
It's got, it's a long time.
That's, that's what I would know.
But you can tell me.
Yeah.
I think it's never too early.
People say average is somewhere between fiveand ten years for succession.
(21:58):
I think it's probably ten, especially if you'rean owner and you need to be thinking about
that, but at least five.
And also just short term contingency plan.
Like what if you were hit by a bus tomorrow?
What is the plan?
Like, do you have a plan in your company?
Because that is something you should havemapped out if you don't today.
Like the really important kind of a seriousthing, important.
(22:20):
And then I would just say, Justin, we are, it'shard, but time, I hate to sound like a broken
record, but time is shorter than you think.
Ten years can go by pretty quickly.
Maybe it doesn't feel like that when you're 25,but at 53, which as I am right now, where I am
right now, I feel like, wow, ten years canglide by.
(22:40):
And I think that if we don't plan what we want,then we don't get it.
And so I think as an owner, as an executive,I'm thinking about, you know, anyone in that
capacity or, or, you know, where you are, youshould be thinking about like, where do you
want to spend your time?
And what's your, do you have a next chapterthat you want to live?
(23:01):
And if that's the case, our average lifespan is80 years old.
Granted, we're all gonna live to be a hundred,right?
So we've got more time.
But if that is the case, like I'm just gonnaput myself in that, in those shoes.
I'm 53.
So if my life span is to 80, guess what?
I am in the August of my life.
(23:22):
So I am over the halfway mark of my life.
You're probably in June, like the June, lateJune, right?
halfway through.
That's almost, almost completely halfwaythrough.
So I don't think we have a hard time as humansreally facing that.
And so I just would say sooner than later andbe on the offense, not the defense, because
(23:46):
otherwise life's gonna just hit you withsomething and it might be a health thing or it
might be something else.
And then all of a sudden you don't have controland you're not managing the narrative.
And I think the other thing is just havedifferent identities.
I think that there's a lot of identity for allof us connected with work and being a
professional, and that's really important andawesome and do it.
(24:07):
You know, everyone's different, but think aboutwhat other identities you want because there
are more to life as well.
So hopefully that helps.
Also a difficult, transition, of identitycrisis.
So and I think we've talked about this beforewhere, you know, your kids leave.
Right?
Like, know, you have kids.
They eventually go off to do their thing whereyou were their complete caregiver.
(24:29):
You know, as they get older, they're they'rebetter, but like you're still the, you know,
pay all the bills, do all the things, you know,give them a house, all this stuff.
And eventually they're just gone.
Right?
It's not like they are, you know, gone fromyour life completely, but it's like for the
first eighteen years, you spend eighteen yearswith them.
And then like the rest of their lives, youspend maybe a year with them, which is crazy.
Like, that's a that's a unbelievable thing Ithink about, and my son's only five.
(24:53):
So that transition from like, I'm the everydaycaregiver, you know, every, you know, you know,
parent compared to now I'm just, you know,waiting for grandkids.
Like, it's it's a it's a different game then.
Right?
Like, maybe not too quickly after 18, but,like, eventually, you can come back around and
be like, oh, I get to do the the grandpa orgrandma thing, which is cool, but that identity
(25:16):
does change.
It it it's really hard.
And for somebody say somebody that wasn'tworking and was just being a fully, you know,
parent full time parent, like that's theiralmost whole identity.
And like to have that evaporate one day is likescary.
Same thing with business owners, right?
You have a business and then you sold thatbusiness after thirty, forty years.
(25:38):
What, who are you now is the question.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a really good point.
Number one on the parenting thing, we spend allof our time planning to have children if we, if
you do decide to have or stepchildren or, orwhat adopt.
And that, but we know one really plans for whenthey leave, which they will, especially if
you're doing, you know, what you should,they're gonna And so I think that you should
(25:59):
have a plan because it'll make it better forthem and you.
And I think there's an opportunity for all ofus to have multiple chapters over our lives to
do all these things.
And so yes, going back to the identity of anowner in a business or an executive, I know I
have friends with a very, very successfulexecutive coach and she gets brought in when a
company is gonna get acquired by anotherorganization.
(26:21):
And she can tell whether they're really gonna,the owner's really gonna give it up and do the
deal or not by how they act and if howconnected to their identity the business is,
because in the end it can be so much money andthey don't, they can't let go.
It's like a part of who they are.
And so I think it's just awareness.
I would just say self awareness, selfawareness, like be aware of who you are, what
(26:44):
you want.
Maybe you want to work until you drop dead.
I don't know.
That's okay.
But make sure if that's not what you want,spend some time planning.
I think of it like Michael Jordan, and you canrelate to this as a, as a fellow, as a Chicago
native.
He went out on top.
Like, am I wrong?
That guy went out on top.
(27:04):
He went out on top, but then came back and thenwent out on top again and then came back again.
But, yes, I completely agree.
He's the greatest of all time.
There's no question.
He he managed his narrative.
Like, he managed that narrative.
And I my dream for myself and and for anyoneout there is like, manage your narrative.
Like, manage go out when when you're good in agood place and you managed how you wanted to do
(27:28):
it.
Don't let it happen to you.
Don't let stuff just happen to you.
So no, kind of that's kind of hard, hard, hardconversation, but
Hard conversations are the ones we need to havemore of in my opinion.
I think about when I worked at a law firm andseeing attorneys work into their eighties.
And I thought to myself, I'm like, that'scrazy.
(27:48):
Like, would you do that now?
Hey, like, if your, you know, core purpose inlife is, you know, to be an attorney, the
greatest attorney and all those, however youwant to phrase that.
Sure.
But like, there's, there's something to be saidabout the other aspects of life.
And especially once you get into certainly intoyour eighties, where you've, I call it rolling
(28:08):
the credits, right?
Like you're, you're, you're already post creditright now.
You're waiting for maybe another scene, butthat that's it.
So I've seen it on both hands where some peopleare like, no, I want to close-up early.
Like I want, you know, I want to be done by thetime I'm 53.
Right.
And like, that's now I'm going to go off and domy own thing or whatever that looks like.
So yeah, I guess it's something personal, butto the point of succession, like what should
(28:32):
that start looking like in that five to tenyear plan?
Like what should owners, executives startlooking at in that time?
So I am not gonna, I'm not gonna pretend to bean expert in this category.
I can only give you my thoughts.
So just know that because I, but I would, Iwould definitely talk to a professional who
works with owners like this.
I'm sure there are people out there who do, butI would just say, listen, you gotta have, have
(28:56):
you identified who could be your successor orare you developing more than one person in your
company?
What is your plan as a company get to get sold?
At that point, you should be talking to like,what are your options?
And think about that ahead.
So that's, that's what I would say is like planahead and hey, if you're, if you're doing great
and you want to keep going great, but at leastyou have a plan if something changes on a dime.
(29:19):
Then I think you could, you should assess it.
You should keep assessing it and forcingyourself to look at it every year, every two
years, because things could change very, veryrapidly.
Was trying to think there was a story that Ihad. Like
a Like
a business plan where it's like you, you make aplan whenever you do your strategic planning,
and then in the next quarter, you go back andyou look at it, alright, hey, where are we at
(29:39):
with the plan?
And like, sometimes it's like, we found a wholedifferent service line, so the plan is
completely different now.
Or, you know, you find out like, oh, we're justnot we're not doing the plan.
We are not on track.
So we need to get back on track.
So I concur with that.
I think business life is very much, you justhave to actually systematize it, right?
You have to think what's the structure I'mlooking for to get to the thing I want to go to
(30:02):
and then check-in.
Hey, am I am I on, you know, track or am I noton track?
And if I'm not, why is that the case?
And let's fix that.
Or is the trajectory where we wanted to go notthe north star anymore?
Right?
Like that, that always comes to that.
Right.
Right.
And, and get people in your, your, I would callit like your board of directors, like your,
(30:23):
your trust little, you know, board of directorsor community of trust to be honest with you and
tell you what's up if you don't want to hear iteven about where you are and what might be
going on and what you might be hanging ontothat you shouldn't.
And then I think you should.
It's not an urgent thing.
It doesn't feel urgent.
So people put it off, but then it's reallyimportant.
(30:46):
And so then if you don't, then it's soimportant that you, to me, it's like legacy,
what do you want for your legacy?
Which people should be thinking about.
Like, it's not too early to think about that aswell.
So.
No.
I love I love that.
I I feel like there's two camps.
Think about legacy for people that youshouldn't think about it at all.
And for me, I'm like, well, if you're trying tocreate a thing in any aspect of life, you have
(31:10):
to think it.
Like that's to me is like, that's the only way.
During COVID, it was 2020, November of '20 '20,I just looked this up the other day.
I wrote my eulogy, right?
Like, so I wrote this eulogy of like, Hey, whenI cash out at 80, I think I said 80 or 81 or
something, I have X amount of time until thatpoint.
Here's what I'd like somebody to say about mewhen I'm gone.
It'd be really great if I achieved all thesethings in life, but that's the way I start
(31:33):
looking at like my legacy of like, Hey, if Igot to here, that would be an amazing legacy
for me.
Now I just have to work it backwards and saylike, okay, well, if I wanna do start a
nonprofit and I have not done that yet, well,time's ticking.
Right?
Like, and now it doesn't mean you have to doeverything all at once, but you have to start
setting the blocks in place to eventually havethat beautiful legacy at the end of days.
(31:56):
I you're so wise.
I was thinking about this because I've hadexperiences like recently.
So I have a grandfather who lived to be 99 and
worked until he was 90 That's good for you,Jen.
You're well on your way to a hundred.
Well, he worked until he was 92.
He was in a different job.
Alright.
But
(32:16):
he he loved going to the office every day.
So that was really awesome.
And still, you know, all the way up, verysmart.
And then I my mom, I lost.
She was 72.
And she worked all the way.
And she kept saying, well, I'm gonna work untilI'm 70.
I'm gonna work until I'm 70.
And cause she wanted to get more money forsocial security.
And so she spent all this time working.
(32:36):
And then she had a disease and didn't make it.
So I kind of feel like we don't know.
Like in the end, we don't know what our path isgoing to be.
So I think we have to live it as best we can.
Don't waste time on like, make sure you'refocused in doing the things you wanna do.
And that means working too and doing the kindof work that you love.
(32:58):
And if you're not happy, you have agency tomake a change.
You always have agency to make a change.
And I wanna make sure I stress that because Ithink people get stuck in this victim sometimes
like I can't leave.
And I feel like, no, you can with a plan.
Preach, Jen.
Preach.
That's what I'm talking about.
Very sorry to hear about your mom.
That I can only imagine being a very rough timejust in in life, which I've certainly not
(33:24):
experienced yet.
But assuming I outlive my mom, that's that's apart of the life cycle, which is unfortunate
for us.
I would be, remiss if I didn't ask about,specifically if you have any in the AEC space,
all my building scale friends and and all allof our clientele and all that stuff.
Love to tell me how labor shortage is massivein the, the construction space specifically.
(33:48):
And it's really hard to find people.
In fact, I hear that more often than not acrossindustries now.
It's like, it's just super hard to find people,which I mean, I guess our birth rates are
somewhat down, but I feel like I can't have hadquite the quick turn that that would be.
So what are you seeing as an expert?
Yeah.
When I look at our generations, actually, it'snot I think the Gen X generation is smaller,
(34:10):
but if you look at millennials, gen Z, and thenthe gen alpha that's coming, it's around the
same.
It's I think it's around 72,000,000.
So they're not, it's not that different.
What I think is going on, there's a couplethings We don't have as The United States, we
don't really have an apprenticeship culture,which is a really a bummer.
We used to, but I think that there are some,there's some great talent that you kind of get
(34:37):
pushed on us in a certain direction ineducation.
And there's probably some great talent,especially in the construction and the trades,
etcetera, that really could be developed.
So I, my answer is go start early.
If you can get interns, early in terms of evenhigh school with people and see what you can do
(34:59):
there because you might be able to get somedevelopment, get some great candidates in that
category, if you can do it.
Number two would be think differently or thinkabout if possible, like some of your positions,
I know you need a certain education and acertain background and I get that.
But where you can maybe earlier stage or withdifferent roles, can you look at different
industries?
(35:19):
So that could be relatable.
Like one of the trends I'm seeing is inconstruction, people looking at manufacturing
people and people that have really awesomemanufacturing best practices because there's so
much efficiency and operational efficiency inmanufacturing that could be incredibly valuable
when we're trying, when your costs are up, yourmaterials are up, your labor is up.
(35:42):
So that leads into prefab facilities andbuilding out modular homes or modular pieces in
in a plant setting.
So I think there's a really interesting meldthat's going on between those two categories,
which I think is awesome.
And there's big problems to solve for an AEC.
(36:03):
I think there's huge problems to solve, whichmeans opportunities.
So Well, yeah.
I exciting.
No.
I I completely agree.
I see the shortage of labor where you'retalking about like, hey.
Like, for a superintendent or, you know,somebody that's on the job, even a journeyman,
tradesman, like those are, you can't just, youknow, wave the wand and now you have a ton of
them, right?
Like there's not, there's just not that manybecause we, we have a deficit on the backlog of
(36:26):
them.
Now, sure.
We're doing programs that are getting,hopefully getting more, kids, and, and women
specifically.
I know a bunch of organizations that are tryingto, Hey, women in the trades kind of
organizations.
Like, that's great.
That's awesome for future.
But like today we're like stuck in this thing,which then I started thinking to your point,
like, well, then you're probably to have tochange the process.
Like you can't change the amount of peoplebecause they just, they're currently not
(36:48):
available.
Like it's just, you can't manufacture peopleovernight, at least not the ones with the
experience.
So that you started saying like, well, modularor prefab things that are done on a
manufacturing floor in comparison to on the jobsite changes the whole game because now you
don't need to have that super skilled labor onthe floor that you wouldn't necessarily on a
job site.
And you're able to do things at scale becausenow it's, oh, we can put X amount of these
(37:13):
modular bathrooms or whatever it is togetherand then push them out.
So no, I think that you're totally spot on thator AI and robotics.
One of those is going to catch up fast enough.
And then that's going to be, or probably ablend of both.
And that's going to be part of our solutions.
Actually, that's a good question.
People are always worried about AI in theirjobs.
Like that seems like a thing I hear all thetime too.
(37:34):
What's your thoughts on that?
Are people's jobs gone now because we havereally smart computers?
No, I think what you've probably heard thisbefore.
I think it's more that your role may change andit may get better.
So I feel like it's, it's, there's still, italways creates more opportunities.
It's just the job may be different or actuallymore enticing for people.
(37:56):
So be thinking about jobs in a different waycould be really appealing.
And in the end, we've got big The problems wehave to solve, we have a deficit of supply.
Like, I don't know, it's a really wide rangebetween 9,000,000 units residential affordable
housing we are We are just in a deficit with,that's a big problem.
(38:17):
We have zoning issues.
That's a big problem.
We have labor shortage.
We have materials.
So we've got like not enough supply.
And then how are we gonna produce for the rightamount of money?
So I think, hey, all of you people out there,whoever's gonna solve these problems, they're
gonna do really well and be really, reallysuccessful.
And the one thing I was gonna say about talentthat I think is really important, talent is
(38:40):
evenly distributed across gender, across race,across socioeconomic status.
Like there is talent everywhere, but it's partof like finding the people and getting them
developed.
So I think we have to think differently.
An example I would give is that I had a womanwho is an HR executive in organizational
(39:04):
development.
We figured out that she was actually anexecutive, like more of a CEO type and through
some testing and development and she ultimatelyis COO today.
But without like she had the skills, she hadthe talent, but she just needed the skills.
Like she needed to get there.
So I think there are people in yourorganization who might be amazing.
(39:25):
You just don't know it.
They're quietly there.
They haven't been developed.
So I think there's untapped potential and youcan do some work on testing and evaluating and
assessing people to help develop them as welland find out what they might be good at.
Well, how do how does one go No.
I love that.
No.
Speak the truth.
So that's that's all good.
(39:45):
How do how do you test it?
Like, because I'm so people y, that's the wordI'm gonna use, people y.
Since I'm so people y, it's more of like, forme, I'm always like, I'm gonna talk to people
and then I'm gonna get a good vibe upon how I,you know, our experience I have with them.
And then I'll say like, oh, you would be greatto be our account executive in comparison to,
(40:06):
an engineer, right?
Like you, you are just more socially skilled.
Like, I mean, that's essentially an engineer'sgenerally not the most, social butterflies by
any means.
But Hey, like if I find one that is, it's like,oh, there's probably something else that you
could do that one, you'll probably like morebecause it's more natural to you.
But then two, you would be like a rock star at,which would then be amazing for us.
(40:27):
So like, I understand it that way as in thepeople y way, but is there more of actual
process or test or system that somebody coulduse, to identify those things?
Yes.
So that is a really good point.
I, yes, you know, you do talk to people, youinterview people, you figure out what they're
good at.
That's all good.
But there are some elements that help you finddeeper level data and that could be
(40:51):
assessments.
And for example, there's a couple ofassessments, although there's 25 I could
probably name, but I recently got certified inColby, is Love Colby.
They yeah.
So they are focused on how the conative part ofthe brain, which is basically how we do things.
And what's cool about that is it's it's a nonbiased test.
(41:14):
So it's not about what you think or feel.
It's about how.
And there's some ways that you can We can getinto this at some point, but it's just like
figuring out what the job is and then how theperson is a fit.
There's also predictive index, which is alsoreally awesome.
So I feel like if you're in an org, those typesof things like getting involved with someone
who can really help you understand people'sstrengths, do some analysis on the team and
(41:39):
where you are, it can be super powerful inthinking about who you hire next, but also
thinking about who you already have on yourteam that could be good in a different role
that you're not even thinking about yet.
So I think it's just an opportunity to getreally creative and think of it as an
opportunity versus I know it's a problem, butit can also be a really awesome opportunity for
people if you, if you, if you create the rightsituation for it.
(42:03):
That goes back to the right seat count content,right?
It's just like, you're the right person, butyou're currently not in the best seat for it.
Maybe it's not like the wrong seat, but it'slike, we're at like, you know, 70% production
from you just because it's not the right seat.
But, man, if I move you over to this otherseat, now we're at, like, a % production or
what whatever number.
The increase in production is is so muchhigher.
(42:24):
So that makes perfect sense to me.
Yeah.
Let me give you a little example that might beSure.
Tangible.
So I just met with a woman in the last twoweeks.
She has been struggling with her job.
I think she feels really depleted, and we didsome testing.
So we did the Kolbe A, and I did a readout forher.
We talked about it.
And what we figured out was it wasn't about thejob, but we figured out her environment was
(42:48):
exhausting her because it was a lot of change,like constant change, constant client change,
and a lot of ambiguity.
And what we figured out from her profile isthat she actually does better with a more like
knowing those variables and then she thrives.
And so we so we kinda unhooked it and wefigured it out.
(43:08):
Like if she was on a client for like a longterm client, she would be, it would be like in
her perfect natural zone of thriving.
And so that's the kind of stuff where if that'sa little thing, but it could be huge in terms
of like having your employees perform in theirin their best self and create less turnover or
(43:31):
less frustration for people.
So it's really cool.
It's such great stuff and I love it.
So I'm in I guess I'm in this really creatingawareness for people stage.
Self awareness.
I love that.
We need more of that.
So keep doing the thing you're doing.
This has been a ton of fun.
I'm gonna throw all your social and all thatfun stuff in the show notes.
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
(43:54):
Yeah.
Jen@booksfansearch.com.
Or you can find me on LinkedIn.
Yeah.
Awesome.
And then would you like to tell people forsure.
Would you like to tell the people anything elsebefore, we say our goodbyes?
I think we're good.
Hey.
I I'm just excited.
And if you you guys need help or you need tounlock something or figure something out, I'm
happy to to help.
(44:14):
It's it's a it's an honor to be here.
Justin, thank you for the time, and I lovetalking about this stuff.
So thank you for giving me some time with this.
No.
Absolutely.
This was a ton of fun.
Love these episodes because it's just I don'tknow.
It's just really, really relaxing fun and justit's good just knowledge just knowledge gained
(44:34):
for me, you know, selfishly, totally selfishlyfor me.
But then, for anybody listening, I just I lovepushing out content that's gonna be, usable
and, like, people that are actually gonna get,like, benefit and value and impact from it.
So, this has been great.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Yep.
Alright, listeners.
Until next time.
Peace out.
(44:56):
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(45:18):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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