The Things No One Teaches You About Becoming a Partner with Chris Hamer and Megan Walsh - Aria Group
January 21, 2025 • 52 mins
Chris Hamer and Megan Walsh from Aria Group share their career origin stories and the team culture at Aria Group. They discuss the path to becoming a partner or shareholder and address common misconceptions about bringing in new shareholders. The episode delves into strategic planning, partner responsibilities, and the role of structure and consultants in business growth. Chris and Megan explore growth strategies, company culture, and the alignment of performance reviews with core values. They emphasize the importance of core values in hiring and HR processes and how these values guide strategic business decisions.
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(00:00):
You guys hiring?
And, she got me an interview, and I and Istarted here.
And and there was a huge contrast in workinghere versus my previous employer.
Like, I felt like they cared that I was here,and they were, you know, investing in my
success, and I was having more responsibility.
And, so echoing everything Megan just said, Ithink we have a really strong, you know,
(00:23):
culture of employee development.
And, you know, also, you know, we we care aboutour people.
And, and we want them to have a career here ifthat's what they wanna do, you know, from start
to finish.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
(00:43):
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forat.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
(01:03):
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
(01:24):
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IP cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to building scale dot net slash health.
Today's guests are 2 principals at ARIA Group,a leading architectural firm specializing in
(01:48):
hospitality design, Chris Hamer and MeganWalsh.
Chris is the president of the firm andspecializes in hospitality design, focusing on
restaurants, hotels, entertainment venues.
Some key projects include Topolobamo, renownedChicago restaurant by Shepherd Bayless, as well
as Tortazzo, a fast casual eatery, also by RickBayless.
Multiple Dave and Buster's throughout the USand Nordstrom Restaurants and Ebar.
(02:12):
Megan Walsh is the chief business developmentofficer at Aria.
She is an expert in fostering strong clientrelationships and collaborative project
leadership and focuses on delivering dynamicand functional spaces for the hospitality
sector.
Some of her projects include Verdot, a Mexicanrestaurant in Austin, Matter Bio Wellness Club,
Bar SoTadno, a speakeasy style mezcal bar inChicago, and Perry's Steakhouse and Grill.
(02:37):
RE Group recent accolades include interiordesign's best of year awards in 24 recognized
for excellence in design, architects newspaperAN awards honorable mention for the Loom
project, and building design and construction'stop a 175 architecture firms in 23 ranked a 104
nationally.
And with all that said, welcome to the show.
(02:57):
Thanks, Justin.
My ears are burning.
I don't know about you, Megan.
Thanks so much, Justin.
I'm getting better at intros.
Like, it's only we're we're about a 125episodes in.
I'm getting I'm getting better at it, where I Ican cut things down.
But when you do a ton of awesome stuff, it'snot always easy to just, like, cut it cut it at
certain spots.
So I I hope I did it justice, but, would loveto hear from you 2 both, of your origin
(03:22):
stories, how you got into the the space, andthen as well as why Aria is so awesome.
Sure.
So for me, my origin story is, you know, when Iwas a kid, my dad had a business.
He founded Hamer Guitars in the 19 seventies,and his job was selling guitars to rock stars.
And I was fully on board with that when I was akid.
(03:42):
I was ready to travel the world and then meetall the cool people.
And then through a, through a dispute with hispartners, he ended up, leaving the business.
And I needed a new job.
So we moved to Oak Park, Illinois where ourfirm actually is located in the and my dad took
me to the Frank Lloyd Wright home and studio.
And seeing that, I was like, this seems prettycool.
(04:03):
After that, we kinda traveled around and didsummer vacations around architecture, and I
fell in love and decided to go to school forit.
That's one beautiful I played music, all mylife.
My dream job is to be a lead singer in a rockband.
So, like, I'm all in
on your shaking out of the song.
Yeah.
I totally I I play drums.
(04:23):
So if you play guitar, hopefully, maybe, thiswill totally work out for us.
Okay.
Great.
What about you, Megan?
Mine's not quite as glamorous as Chris.
I did.
So as a kid, I was always really creative.
So always drawing, painting, doing somethingcreative, not a Lincoln Log or Lego fan.
(04:43):
I was more of a fan of being able to build indifferent directions, like, not stuck in a box,
essentially.
Not stuck with linear.
So Tinkertoys was my building choice of myselection.
And my really close friend from growing up, hermom was an interior designer.
And so I started getting interested in theindustry through interior design and through
(05:07):
through seeing what she did.
So at first, I wanted to be an interiordesigner, and then I kind of kept flipping back
and forth, between architecture and interiors.
And ultimately, now I get to do both.
So I'm very excited that I get to have thatcreative outlet on both sides of the design and
architecture side of of the industry.
(05:27):
I went to school for architecture at Wash U inSt.
Louis.
And ironically, whenever I was at school, wedid a a class trip up to Chicago and visited
Unity Temple, which is actually right behindour office.
So I didn't know that I was gonna end upspending so much of my career in Oak Park.
It was so kind of ironic.
I started in the residential side of the worldside right out of school.
(05:51):
But one of my good friends was working at ARIAand was like, you really should come here.
It's really fun.
I was really interested in the hospitalitydesign side, of the industry and how creative
you get to be.
And so that's what pulled me over to Aria.
And I've been here for a total of 17 years witha a gap of 5 years in there, because we moved
(06:14):
to California for a while for my husband's job.
But I really loved the management style ofARIA.
Came back to ARIA whenever we moved back toChicago.
That boomerang effect.
That's that usually means that there's a goodculture.
So let let's start there.
What why go back to to the same firm?
What what drew you say, hey.
I I need to be back here.
(06:35):
It's super important.
Yeah.
You know, the biggest thing is is the people.
And, you know, our team is really down to earthand and a close knit group overall.
So I would say that's one part.
And connected to people too is we're very it'svery, like, team focused mindset, both
(06:55):
internally and then externally, how we workwith contractors and and engineers always, and
clients, you know, always putting the teamfocused on our work.
So I would say that's the one of the othercomponents.
And then a third component is how we reallyempower our more junior team members within our
office too, and really, you know, are workingon building them up, you know, helping them in
(07:22):
grow in their career.
So I think, you know, especially as a younger,team member, that really that style of
management and that style of helping you growwithin the firm, it was really, really
interesting to me.
So one of the you know, all those thingsdefinitely came together to bring me back.
Yep.
For me, you know, I after school, I went towork for, you know, sort of medium sized
(07:46):
Chicago firm that, you know, is prettyrecognizable name in the city.
And I worked on the same project for 3 years,and when that project wrapped up, they were
kinda like, see you later.
Dotcom bust era.
And, so a friend of mine went to work for Aria,and and I said, hey.
Are you guys hiring?
And, she got me an interview, and I and Istarted here, and and there was a huge contrast
(08:08):
in working here versus my previous employer.
Like, I felt like they cared that I was here,and they were, you know, investing in my
success, and I was having more responsibility.
And, so echoing everything Megan just said, Ithink we have a really strong, you know,
culture of employee development.
And, you know, also, you know, we we care aboutour people, and, and we want them to have a
(08:32):
career here if that's what they wanna do, youknow, from start to finish.
So both the reason why both of you are on theshow is we're gonna we're gonna explore
something that we haven't talked about on theshow.
It isn't talked about in school, inarchitecture school.
It's not talked about in engineering schoolyet.
It's such a big piece of essentially what it isto be part of an architectural firm and that's
(08:54):
becoming a partner or becoming a, really ashareholder, right.
And the path towards that.
So can you talk a little bit about what yourpath looked like?
Did you even, at the time when you had joinedARIA, did you even consider that that was an
option?
And if so, why go after it?
(09:14):
Yeah.
I mean, for me starting, you know, as a 24 yearold kid, it wasn't really something that was on
my radar, but it was something over time thatthat, you know, I became aware of and just sort
of seemed like the next logical step in mycareer.
So started talking to the founders about it,saying that I was interested in it.
(09:36):
And we have some we have one objectivecriteria, and that's time spent at the firm.
We look for someone to be here 10 years beforebeing eligible for ownership.
And then there's a bunch of subjective criteriain terms of client satisfaction and project
success and leadership and things like that.
So but, you know, something we talked about andwhen it was offered, like, I had no idea what I
(10:01):
was getting into.
And, you know, I think we kinda we kindalearned on on our way.
Megan, I'll let you tell your story now.
Yeah.
I think I don't think I necessarily focused onit when I first joined the firm, but definitely
kinda similar to Chris.
Like, over time, realizing, you know, okay.
What would be the progression of my career inthe future here?
And so talking to the principal that led ourteam about the potential there, and I think
(10:26):
I've always been interested in either, like,helping to lead a firm or, like, owning my own
firm.
Just that interested in the, like,entrepreneurial side of of the industry.
So, and being able to kind of craft the path ofa firm too, is really interesting.
You know, you each kind of took a differentpath, around how to get there, but from the
(10:50):
founder's position, why would they, why wouldthey decide that they want to cut a piece of
their own pie?
Right.
Because that's really what happens and allowfor, you know, someone else to come in, and be
part of really shareholder, partially, equityowner.
Why would they want to do that?
(11:11):
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's two reasons really.
One is, you know, they, at some point have totransition and having additional shareholders
as a vehicle for transitioning the business.
And the other is that the whole is greater,than, you know, with adding more people, you
know, that that's the you you make a commitmentto a shareholder that, you know, we believe in
(11:36):
you and the business is going to be greaterwith you in it.
So, you know, you you grow the pie, so tospeak.
And then, you know, even though your pie sliceof the pie may be slightly smaller, if the pie
grows, there's more pie forever.
K.
Yeah.
And I think also, you know, just in general,the founders that really, you know, focused on,
you know, continuing the the future of thebusiness too.
(11:58):
And and really one of the things that makes ussuccessful is our, like, longevity, with, like,
client relationships too.
So I think, you know, continuing thatrelationship with clients and continuing to
help our clients grow, you know, that's likewhat makes us successful in general too.
So they've been really good about, you know,continuing to, like, pass on the, the, like,
(12:23):
leadership of and, you know, connection withthose clients to the rest of us as principals
and, and, you know, throughout our team.
And so I think that is also just the future ofthe company and and kind of that positive of
how to help us succeed in the future is hasbeen really important too.
So what, you know, becoming an owner, becominga shareholder, you know, partner, that sounds
(12:46):
amazing.
Like, the the sound of that sounds likerainbows and unicorns, and this is gonna be the
greatest thing ever.
But, like, what's what's the other side ofthat?
Not, like, not everything's all that it'scracked up to be not to say that's like a bad
decision but like where where maybe themisconceptions like what are what are
misconceptions that maybe you had or you thinkpeople have when they decide hey I'm gonna you
(13:08):
know sign this partnership agreement
Well, yeah.
I mean, for me, it was, this sounds great.
Where do I sign?
And then we went to a we went to a celebratorydinner.
And, on the way home, I was getting a ride fromthe founder of the firm.
And he said, oh, by the way, you know, we'rewe're a subchapter s corporation.
I'm like, what what's that?
(13:28):
I don't know what that is.
And, so that means that we pay the taxes forthe company.
And I'm like, that doesn't make any sense.
And but, you know, by the way, you know, we'llwork with our accountant and and, you know, all
of this was just, like, you know, stepping intoit with but via, you know, almost like shotgun
blast to the face.
Like, I I went home and Googled, like, what'swhat's an s corp?
(13:50):
And what is what is pass through tax?
And what
does all this mean?
So, I mean, it's been a huge huge learningcurve.
I think that's something we've we've tried toaddress with subsequent, you know, generations
of owners just like, hey.
We just want you to here's here's what thismeans.
Here's how everything's structured.
I mean, I think just the the business aspectwas just, was a surprise for sure.
(14:16):
Yeah.
I think I was the ben you know, because I was,like, 2 shareholders later, than Chris, I
believe.
So I had the benefit of more kind ofpreparation, more explanation, but it's still,
you know, it's still surprising, you know, onceyou get to, like, the tax component of what
you're working with, like, things that youdon't have an experience before, you know,
(14:38):
seeing, you know, all sides of the business,you know, seeing having that opened up, and
especially coming into this role without abusiness minor or anything.
You know, I think that's that is, you know,quite shocking, you know, so much to learn, but
at the same time, also really exciting.
Like, you get to that you get to, you know,touch and experience all different sides of the
(15:02):
business.
You know, you're not interacting with all ofit.
You're usually focused on one side of thebusiness, but, you know, very interesting, so
much to learn and, and grow at throughout yourcareer.
Well, so there's a lot to unpack here.
Right?
Because essentially sounds great.
It has definitely a lot of, a lot of benefits,however, the experience and for anyone out
(15:27):
there, right, that's considering to become apartner, probably needs to be a little educated
on what that really means.
So, you know, how would you, and even, evenbefore becoming a shareholder, you know, like
talk about, let's say difference betweenpartner and shareholder, right?
(15:48):
Is there a difference?
At what point can you become a shareholder?
And what does we'll call it moving up theladder?
What does that really mean?
And additionally, what do you wish you hadknown before taking that leap?
Yeah.
I mean, taking the last question first, Ithink, you know, the firm, the firm can have
(16:08):
good years and the firm can have bad years.
Right.
And, COVID was a huge shock to us.
We we designed restaurants and entertainmentfacilities, and that was not a popular business
to be in in 2020 and most of 2021.
Thankfully, it did come roaring breath.
But, you know, in the down years, you know, youyou know, you're kinda first in line to get to
(16:29):
take the hit, and that's that's how it shouldbe.
And then, you know, as far as as far as movingup, I mean, I think, you know, I I wish I could
say we could have the all we had all theanswers there.
I mean, I think that's something we're we'retrying to figure out, you know, for for us, for
our firm right now, we had an immediate needfor a leadership transition because our
founders were looking to retire.
(16:51):
That was a that was a 2 year process justtrying to plan and figure out who's going to be
in what position, and, you know, we useconsulting to help multiple consultants to help
us with that.
And I think the next challenge starts now andhow we're going to transition, you know, the
next tranche of the company for, you know, forour partners who are are looking to retire in
(17:13):
the next 10 years.
So, you know, becoming a shareholder makes youhave responsibilities that is very different
from not being a shareholder.
It's a very different set of responsibilities.
It's not necessarily, and it's not really partof the job description, Right?
(17:33):
Yet the responsibilities are there.
Can you talk a little bit about what that is?
The unwritten stuff, right?
Stuff that's not in the job description.
Sure.
I mean, I think one is a responsibility to growthe firm that that falls more heavily on
shareholders than it does for the rest of the,you know, rest of the rank and file.
(17:54):
Another would be, you know, there's there'sdefinitely a leadership component.
You know, we look at our our shareholders asthe, you know, the the leaders and future
leaders of the firm.
So, you know, that's something we, you know,talk to our people about.
And, you know, a lot of of our shareholders areare leading teams, either larger teams or or
just, you know, multiple project teams.
(18:16):
And they are, you know, they hold key clientrelationships like Megan mentioned.
Megan, anything to add on your end?
Yeah.
I mean, I think another big part that, youknow, we've been focusing on more in the last
few years is strategic planning.
And, you know, learning more about that, eachof us have stepped to, like, focus on a
(18:37):
specific area of strategic planning.
Client strategy is is is what I focus on.
You know, others focusing on, like, financialand growth, operations, people, strategies.
So, you know, that's learning more aboutstrategic planning and and how to plan for not
just the next year, but for, like, 5 years, 10years, you know, and working together to, like,
(19:01):
craft that plan.
You know, on top of the day to day of alleverything else that you're working on.
So which has been, you know, really fun, butalso it was challenging.
It's hard, you know, architecture and designis, is a very, you know, you know, fast, very
busy business.
You know, we're working really hard.
We've got a lot going on.
(19:21):
So making progress on, you know, the strategicplanning has been something that, you know,
sometimes we struggle with.
It's, you know, how can we move things forwardand and still get everything else done, keep
client our clients happy, keep our teams happy.
So, you know, I think that has been, you know,a learning curve and, you know, I think we're
getting better at it, but excited for us to,you know, continue to grow in that.
(19:44):
And, just real quick, we do ask ourshareholders to kinda slot into one of those
Mhmm.
Or sometimes multiple, but one of thosestrategic areas of the business to help Megan
on on marketing or someone else on operations.
Is that, you mentioned, using, consultants, fordifferent aspects.
Is this a piece where you use consultants?
(20:05):
So, like, at Spot, right, we we're on the US.
Right?
So we have an employer comes in.
Literally, I'll be I'll be in Chicago inJanuary for our annual session, that 2nd week
or 1st week of January.
Like, we're on a 90 day schedule of, like, hey.
We are going to every 90 days, we're gonna gettogether as a leadership team and work on the
business.
Right?
Not in the business, on the business.
(20:26):
So is there a structure that you're using, orare you using a consultant, or are you just,
building it as
you go, as they say?
Yeah.
So 2 years ago, we did bring in a consultant tohelp with strategic planning, and we, the you
know, we put together a strategic plan bookdocument that we've referenced over the last
couple years.
(20:47):
Kinda fell by the wayside for a year.
We we all got together this year to refresh it.
So we had, 2 days of meetings.
And, yeah, we're we're looking to push itforward that way organically this year.
You know, you mentioned EOS.
I'm intrigued by that.
You know, a number of businesses in my Vistagegroup run off that, and they have nothing but
(21:07):
good things to say.
So that that could be something that's in thefuture.
Okay.
Well, Dan shout out to Dan Zawacki.
He's our influencer.
He's he's awesome.
I'll make sure that I let him know.
We we mentioned him during the episode.
But, we can't speak highly enough about EOS.
It's you know?
And I think it's it's about having structure.
Right?
It's about having some form of structure.
Uh-huh.
Like, we've not used, like, scaling up or thegreat game of business, similar concepts.
(21:31):
But, like, the idea is if you have a structure,it's a lot easier to push to the things you
want.
Right?
And that's just in life.
Yeah.
I know, Chris, earlier you said that maybe, itwas too early, to talk about philosophy.
Right?
But, like, that's true.
It's in life.
If you are more structured, you have morefreedom, and you get more things that you want.
And I think that structure that the, you know,the consultant we worked with on the first one,
(21:54):
like, really helped us kind of reframe how wedo it for, like, future years.
So Chris was our fearless leader for thisyear's strategic planning.
But yeah, we have at other times we havebrought in other consultants to, like, moderate
on it and help us think outside the box too.
Cause that, you know, making sure that we don'tjust focus on the same things.
(22:14):
We're thinking big picture about the building,the business is really important.
Have you gone to school or taken classes onwe'll call it on strategy?
This is the stuff that's not necessarily,talked about in your normal 4, technically most
RKs are 5 years in the 5 year course, right.
(22:35):
In college or whatnot.
Is this talked about at all or where can theylearn this?
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's, you know, I don't knowif there's any specific book that has helped me
in terms of research, but I think it's, it'ssomething that I would tell my younger self.
I wish I had gotten a business, you know, minoror something, at least, especially, you know,
(22:56):
so many architecture firms are smallbusinesses, you know, so there's so many people
leading a business once, you know, they getinto the work world.
And so that would definitely be something thatI would wish I had done.
And in the meantime, we're, we're like leaninglearning from the consultants instead and and
reading what we can on that topic and andeverything about business in general, I would
(23:19):
say.
Yeah.
For for me, I I joined Vistage in January, andjust it's been a huge learning experience for
me.
Just learning from other business owners onhow, you know, the challenges they're facing,
their strategies, and, you know, seeing theirsuccess has just been incredible.
And I've recommended it to him.
Yeah.
And for me, another thing that has helped isjust podcasts in general.
(23:42):
So podcasts like yours and and others aboutbusiness and all facets business, I think is
really helpful, especially because a podcast ismore current, similar to, like, Chris'
experience at Vistage.
Whereas, like, if you're reading a book, Imean, that is probably a year ago that that was
written.
So especially with, you know, just the businessworld changing so quickly and economy changing
(24:05):
so quickly, having more current informationfrom a podcast or, you know, a magazine article
is is really helpful too.
That's a good point.
Growing your business in 2018 was verydifferent than growing your business in 2020.
Right?
Like, the those some of those, concepts wouldhave just totally been that's not gonna work at
(24:25):
all.
Right?
And and, obviously, that's a very dramaticexample because of COVID.
But that doesn't change the fact that we areevolving in the business world.
Yeah.
And I mean, that even impacts us from, like, adesign and architecture standpoint too.
Like, just the consumer is changing so muchtoo.
So, you know, businesses are becoming morecomplex and more savvy.
(24:47):
So, you know, all sides of it are impacted, youknow, with, with focusing on something more
current versus, you know, a few years ago.
So strategy, obviously learning about itimportant, staying current, super important.
Last piece on the, on the strategy part beforewe move on to a little bit of a related topic.
(25:08):
What about strategy?
And if you could talk about it, maybe even, youknow, in personal experience, what is it about
strategy that's so important yet?
Isn't really learned about, you know, let's sayin school, but you're learning through really
the school of hard knocks.
Right.
What is so important about it and what it, whathave you learned so far from?
(25:33):
Yeah.
I think, you know, our firm's story was, youknow, in 2021, we brought on some consulting to
help us with the transition, and part of thatstrategic plan at, strategic planning meeting
was about benchmarking our firm's performanceto the industry.
So it was, you know, eye opening to see wherewe were doing well and where we were falling
(25:57):
short.
It triggered a thought process in all of us tosee, okay, what changes can we make immediately
to move the needle in the direction we need togo?
And then it's been a process over the last 2years to see if that's worked or not.
And I'm happy to say it has.
I mean, we're the firm's growing and andeverything that we saw in the business that was
(26:18):
lagging behind is moving towards, you know,where where we wanted it to go.
So and, you know, it also gives you a lens totalk to your employees about.
You know, we we like to have an an all firmmeeting at least once a year where we tell
everyone what's going on, what the plan is,what everyone's working on.
And, you know, so we we get to share thatstrategy.
(26:40):
All all the thought that's gone into ways toimprove the business, we get to share that with
our people.
They get on board and good things result fromthat.
What did that secession planning look like?
Or what did what did the strategy look like forfor you guys?
Yeah.
So specifically for us, we saw, you know, theone thing in particular was our utilization
(27:02):
rate was really high.
They consultants said this should be a giantred flag for you guys.
This is the check engine light blinking that,you know, you're it's it's working, but it'll
be a lot easier for you if you actually reduceyour utilization rate.
I mean, it's like, how does that make sense?
But it does make sense.
We we were overbilling the projects, and wewere and they were suffering accordingly.
(27:26):
And we were shortchanging the business and, youknow, not spending the time we needed to on,
you know, improving things internal.
Yeah.
We were focusing a little bit more on ourbusiness as, like, a small business in a way
and focusing less on, like, the big the actualbusiness.
You know, we're a team of a 130 people now.
(27:47):
You know, but when it was formed, you know, in,1989, you know, there had there had been no
plan in terms of growing really big.
So it just has grown over the years, you know,and really grown through our clients' growth
overall.
So it's it's interesting now to, like, reallystart to focus more on things like marketing,
(28:10):
finance, the, like, HR people component morethan we were trying to align more, like, a a
medium sized large firm that we are.
What I guess, for listeners, what's the what isthe size?
Like, how many people are you what does thatlook
Yeah.
So, a little over a a 130, built out of,architects, designers, and then our, you know,
(28:35):
corporate staff too, finding designers too.
So, you know, a a fully mixed team for fulllike, for a full service firm like ours.
No.
It's a very good size firm.
You're, you're probably point something percentof size when it comes to architecture firms
because generally, a lot of them, to yourpoint, are small businesses.
(28:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And especially because everyone's located herein Oak Park too, outside of Chicago.
And so that's unique too.
A lot of times when a firm gets to our size,they normally have multiple offices.
So that's another unique thing as well.
That I assume that's strategically.
Right?
You wanna stay in one location?
You don't wanna open other other arms or otheroffices, or is this, a peek into the future?
(29:20):
I think it's a peek into the future.
You know, we're we're kinda busting at theseams in Oak Park, So something's gotta give if
we continue to grow.
I think, you know, we have a very strongculture in our team, you know, of of Yeah.
Collaboration and and all being in one placereally helps that.
And we've able to grow a national footprint,you know, despite only having one office
(29:42):
location.
But I think we're, you know, we're we're aboutto outgrow our our environment.
So there may be some changes coming there.
Got it.
Well, I I have I
think COVID post COVID too, you know, werealized, like, we can work virtually more
easily, you know, both with our clients and andwith our team too.
(30:02):
So that it wouldn't necessarily inhibit us fromstill collaborating, you know, remotely.
For sure.
I have no, obviously, eyes of the strategicside.
But Arizona is a great place for a secondoffice, just so you're aware.
We have heard that.
We will consider it.
Yeah.
It's lovely, so I highly recommend it.
So, Megan, for you, so we're talking aboutstrategy a little bit.
(30:27):
As a principal that oversees BD and marketing,what does that look like for the future?
You know, in in general, the biggest way we'vegrown over the past has really been through
referrals since we are such a good teamcollaborator, referrals through our clients,
through the GCs that we work with, and, youknow, other partners.
You know, the GCs that we work with especiallyhave a since we are so team focused, we have a
(30:54):
different view on on collaborating with thecontractor.
You know, oftentimes in the past, you know,architects and contractors have have bedded
heads more so, and we really see it as, like,let's work together.
Like, let's figure out the problem together.
We're not gonna play the blame game.
So in general, I think that has had a bigimpact overall, in our growth.
(31:17):
We since the business has grown throughreferrals, like, we didn't wrestle necessarily
think about it as referral marketing, but itis, like, the best kind of marketing.
So it's wonderful that whenever you're doinggreat work, whenever you're great to work with,
that that's how you grow.
So we wanna, of course, continue that, but wealso have really made a, large focus on meeting
(31:40):
more people, like expanding our network, goingto like more conferences to both learn from
what's going on in the industry, but also tolike meet, meet more people and build
relationships.
So, you know, I think because we are a verypeople focused team that has been a large focus
of from a marketing standpoint.
Another thing is also kind of building ourbrand presence in the industry too.
(32:06):
We just launched a brand new website, soexcited to have that project completed.
And then just are continuing to, like, buildour social media presence, and want to, in this
next year, continue to build other sections ofour marketing.
Direct mail, really engaging our team in inbuilding relationships too and building you
(32:28):
know, continuing to network more.
So it's an exciting time and and a lot to dofrom a marketing standpoint.
Yeah.
I I think just to touch on a little more on thestrategy picture.
I think we've we've kinda realized we're we'rea large firm sustained by a ton of small
projects.
So how can we get into hospitality adjacent orentertainment adjacent industries or verticals
(32:54):
to grow our business further.
So we one of our biggest time clients isTopgolf.
That's led to some sports projects.
Can we amp up the sports aspect of ourbusiness?
You know, I think, we've worked in hotel spacefor a while, but it's not a huge part of our
portfolio.
How can we amp that up?
So I think that's what we're we're looking atin the next 5 years to as a as the best avenue
(33:14):
for growing our business.
No.
That that makes a lot of sense.
Obviously, we were doing one thing really wellfor a long time, and then you start expanding
what those other things that you can do reallywell.
It makes sense when you have a client that youdo great work for, and then they say, you did
great work.
Let me give you more work.
Right?
That that's easy.
But how do you go about getting the 1st job?
(33:36):
Like, how do you go about finding the nextgreat chef or the, you know, the next sporting
event?
How do you how do you build the Bears or WhiteSox stadium or, you know, design the stadium
when that comes around?
Right?
Like, how do you get to that place to then beable to have reoccurring, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, I think part of it is is by providinggreat quality and and, you know, great overall
(34:01):
designing great projects and also having a highlevel of client service.
You know, then your clients also become thebest marketers for you talking about how you're
doing great work and how you're great to workwith.
So I think that that's definitely important.
And also marketing that marketing that greatwork too, and getting that out into industry.
(34:23):
Topgolf has been, you know, a major marketingcomponent, and may connected us to a lot of
people overall, you know, seeing the great workthat that team is doing and seeing the great
work that that client is doing has really,really brought us into more sides of of the
entertainment industry, which has really beenhelpful for our growth.
(34:43):
But in general, in I think our team justcontinuing to do a great job is is one of the
most important things.
Well, next time you're having a company party,hopefully not January, make sure I'm invited to
the Topgolf event.
I'm I'm very
It's better in January than you think it wouldbe.
Really?
Well, there you go.
Plenty warm.
It's a lot of heaters.
Yeah.
One thing that we haven't talked about, it'sdecision making sort of partnership, you know,
(35:09):
whether or not you have equity, does it play aneffect into making decisions within the company
or something that we know that happens within,architectural engineering firms is committees.
So So I'll talk a little bit about decisionmaking, whether or not you use committees, how
and why you use committees.
(35:30):
Sure.
We have committees for various aspects of thebusiness, and that is tends to be, you know,
more open to any employee wants to So we we doa newsletter quarterly, and that's managed by
Megan, but run by, our marketing department andvarious employees in the firm.
(35:51):
There's also a wellness committee that putstogether events.
There's a social committee that also putstogether events centered on, you know, our
holiday party.
And we're having our annual Yankee swap thisafternoon.
So they're responsible for putting thattogether.
Yeah.
That's fine.
Ton of fun.
So it's a long standing tradition.
At a high level, I mean, I think we areorganized into our strategic initiatives around
(36:14):
people, operations, finance, and BD and them.
That I think, you know, we we set the strategytogether.
I think we like to make decisions based aroundconsensus as much as possible.
So I think that fosters, you know, aninclusive, collaborative and
when it comes to decision making, withcommittees, you know, cause it is a way to be,
(36:37):
to be more collaborative.
What, is there a reason why a committee would,let's say, make a decision, but then get over,
overwritten or kind of vetoed by a partner?
If so, why or why not?
I don't think it happens very often.
If if it if it were to happen, I think eitherthe decision seems to be more would result in
(37:04):
inefficiency now or put up a roadblock togetting getting the work done and out the door,
or it's just cost that's not in the budget.
Yeah.
I think also too, if, you know, if it might notalign with, like, the bigger strategic goals of
that year too, or it might be a great idea,might be something we definitely wanna do at
(37:26):
some point, but the timing just may not beright.
Like, we need to push another strategy forwardfirst before we get to that strategy.
So I think that and also making sure that we'rethinking about all parts of it.
I think that's where, like, the collaborationacross strategies is helpful too, that we're
considering, you know, just marketing, butwe're also considering, like, the financial
(37:50):
side and the growth side of the company.
So making sure you're because everything is sointerconnected.
And, and that really is something that like,oh, I think even getting into this, as we
started became principals, we weren'tnecessarily thinking about how interconnected
everything is.
And it's something that, you know, we can needto continue to be better at is to kind of see
(38:12):
how the we can connect those dots and informeach other's decisions more effectively.
What about at the leadership level?
Like, so, obviously, you have shareholders, 6of them, I believe, currently and a board.
So, like, how do decisions get made at thatlevel, not necessarily at a community level?
Yeah.
So we have, 6 principals.
(38:33):
And then overall, I think 18 shareholders.
Right, Chris?
Yeah.
So, I mean, in general, you know, in ourprincipal meetings, weekly, typically, day to
day decisions, It's more of, like, consensusthan anything.
So, I mean, major decisions, we would vote onthose together.
But, Chris, do you wanna speak about it alittle bit more?
(38:55):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the the board is responsiblefor overall strategy and and approving that,
you know, the direction of the firm overall.
I think I think we are kinda set up on a EOSlight model.
And as Meaghan mentioned, we have we haveweekly leadership meetings where we go down
what's big picture stuff first, and then we godrill down into each of the strategic
(39:19):
initiatives, check-in, document the new news,document the decisions.
And as much as possible, I think we're we'retrying to make decisions as a group.
And, you know, I think when when that doesn'twork out, you know, some somebody's gotta
occasionally make an unpopular decision, andthat's usually me.
So, it doesn't happen very often, though.
(39:40):
I think we do a good job of talking things outand and coming to consensus.
So Well, if you wanna talk EOS, the booksbehind me, the ones that are in orange, you can
kind of tell we're big proponents of EOS.
We can talk hours and hours upon that.
Not that we can do that right now, but justwanted to put that out there.
Unpopular decisions.
I wanna just, I just wanna ask about that realquick.
(40:04):
Why would it be unpopular?
And if you can share even a decision or 2 as towhy you had to make those decisions that were
unpopular, Why make the why make thoseunpopular decisions?
Well, I think, you know, we we use ourstrategic plan as a guide.
And if something doesn't fit that, you know,sometimes we just we gotta say no.
(40:25):
I mean and it's sometimes it's like, I'm tryingto think of I can't think of any examples right
now of an unpopular decision I had to make.
Maybe Meghan can.
But
I actually can't
at the moment.
So few and far between then?
Yeah.
I think
so.
Yeah.
I think and then another component of it is,you know, just even how do we share that
(40:48):
decision?
Like, what's you know, sharing the reasoning,like, being as clear and transparent as
possible is really important, both with ourshareholder team, as well as, you know, the
full office.
So I think no matter what, like, it's it'sstill a business.
It's like, we need to make money.
Like, we're not here to just, you know, createonly.
So we need to make sure and especially as we'relearning in our roles that, us focusing on like
(41:14):
the finances even more, especially at thebeginning has been really important both to
prove to the board that we can do that, butalso we're learning, and we wanna make sure
that we continue to grow the company and anddon't make a misstep in any way.
Actually, I can talk quickly about a a apersonal failure, and that was definitely an
(41:35):
unpopular decision.
That wasn't communicated well that I thinkwe've owned up to.
So we were doing we we have annual performancereviews, and we were tying salary increases to
those performance reviews.
And they were happening at more or less aroundthe employee's anniversary date every year.
So we had salary updates every billing period.
(41:59):
We have a 130 people.
There's there's it's and it's it was completechaos on the project planning side because
everybody's billable rates were updatingmultiples you know, many times throughout the
year.
It was really difficult for our projectmanagers to stay on top of the plans.
So we had to we did we made the decision toseparate out salary reviews from performance
(42:23):
reviews.
We were gonna do performance reviews throughoutthe year, salary reviews at one time throughout
the year, and we looked at this year as atransition year.
So we let everyone know, on a quarterly basisthat we were going to do salary reviews until
we got to the end of the year, and then nextyear, all salary reviews happen at once.
And I did a very bad job of communicating thatto the staff.
(42:45):
And I think, you know, there were definitelysome people out there who felt that there were
nefarious reasons for why we were doing this.
So, you know, we got the feedback that it wasunpopular.
I owned up.
Hey.
I need to do a better job, communicating thisto the staff.
And, yeah, I'd I received some subsequentfeedback that everyone appreciated, you know,
(43:06):
us owning up to a mistake and an area where wefell short.
And I think that, you know, being vulnerable,you know, can can buy you a lot of goodwill
when you kinda step on your own toes.
That kinda leads into the the concept ofculture and, like, how do you keep it going?
Right?
You both came, Aria, because friends told youabout it, which is always a good sign.
(43:27):
That means good things are happening, but thatthey care.
Like, they, like, they showed you that theycared.
So, like, how are you intentionally making surethat that's still top of mind now that you're
leading the
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's just communication, youknow, at every you know, we just had a holiday
party.
And the part of the reason for the venue wasit's an important historical project for the
(43:53):
firm.
We're celebrating the founders as they exit thecompany.
And my my way of celebrating that to the staffwas to talk about how times that I made
mistakes with with each of the 3 of them that,you know, they ultimately forgave.
So it's it's about building a culture wherepeople feel okay making mistake.
(44:15):
We don't want people hiding it.
You know, the our our thing with our clientsand our people is that we're we're gonna own
up, and we're gonna take responsibility.
I think so that's just an example of of how wetry to do that and how we try to communicate,
you know, our culture.
Is that Yeah.
And I oh, go ahead.
Go ahead.
No.
Go ahead.
I think, you know, also just empowering ourteam, supporting them in their growth.
(44:39):
Like, I think that also goes a lot a long wayas well as creating, like, team environments
where everyone's collaborating together, youknow, and has is able to build that team
camaraderie.
And in general, I think hiring practices areimportant too, just like hiring, you know,
(45:00):
continuing to hire more people that are alignedwith our culture, our values.
And in general, I think, you know, it helpswhen we do get friend recommendation
recommendations.
That definitely goes a long way.
But, you know, we have a team of really down toearth, you know, hardworking, and creative.
(45:22):
And I think, you know, just good people.
And I think that goes so such a long way.
And then if we get to work with, you know, goodclients too and good, you know, good partners,
that continues to snowball in a good way andcontinues to, like, move our culture forward.
Good people attract good people in all kinds ofways internally to the firm as well as
(45:45):
externally.
Clients or big fans of yours.
Right?
Exactly.
So you mentioned core values.
Is that something that is documented, somewherethat says, hey.
These are our core values.
It's not just a feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We that was part of the strategic planning aswell is to, like, focus on our core values, our
creating our mission statement, and our vision.
(46:07):
And so something that took a long time, youknow, when you have a lot of people, like,
working on it together.
But overall, I see it as something like,although that we created this, this could also
continue to evolve too and and grow as as wegrow.
So definitely exciting to think about how canwe bring now that we have those established,
(46:28):
how can we bring those into other parts of ourcompany and and, like, other parts of our
process?
And, you know, make sure that that's moreintentional as well.
Yeah.
I, like hiring.
Right?
Like, this is, like, for us.
Right?
It's just like we always are hiring on onvalues.
Obviously, there needs to be a technical skill.
You can't hire me as an architect even though Ithink I'd built some cool stuff.
(46:50):
I'm just throwing it out there.
But that would be a horrible decision.
Right?
Even if I met all the core values, but it issuch a huge portion of that.
So is that now intertwined into not only therecruiting process, but also hiring and then
continued instilling.
Right?
Like, you have to, you know, they say you haveto keep telling people the same thing over and
over again.
They say 7 times for anybody to hear anything.
(47:11):
If you don't like, if I don't tell you that I'mcandid and spot migration were candid, I don't
say candid 4 more times, you'll never rememberthat we're candid Yeah.
3 more times.
Yeah.
So is that built into the process now?
I think it is somewhat, but I think it'ssomething that, like, we'll continue to
integrate more.
You know, I know, Diane, one of the theprincipal that leads the people strategies is,
(47:34):
like, working on adjusting, continuing toevolve, like, our job descriptions.
And we're we just started to partner with 155,with a com so a company that'll help us with
our HR process too.
And I think that'll also continue to inintegrate more ways that that we can u utilize
it too.
Chris, any other add in to that?
(47:56):
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think we were strategic withour values and, you know, our mission statement
to align across the the strategic areas of ourbusiness.
So, I mean, just really quickly, you know, ourcore values are are deliver, you know, from the
big picture to the tiny details we go above andbeyond.
I don't have this memorized.
You shouldn't until I'm reading it.
(48:17):
You know, to initiative, challenge yourself,and innovate to step out of your comfort zone.
Community, we try we strive to enrich ourcommunity and the environment through our work
and collaborate.
Teamwork and inclusivity are ingrained in ourprocess.
And I
think I think there's you know, that that workswith our employees just as well as it works
with our, you know, our clients and our BDpitch.
(48:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That sounds like you're also defining who youlike to work with.
It's a reflection of not just internal, butalso externally.
So kind of represents all the way around andaround.
I feel more values then.
Right?
Because if it's just, some aspirational thingsthat sound great if we had people like this,
that doesn't actually work.
So, when it's when it's more true to who youare and then also externally true to those that
(49:03):
you're trying to attract, like, it just works.
Justin, I think it's time for our lastquestion.
What do you think?
I think so.
And we have 2, so we'll get double the doublethe advice.
Yeah.
Alright.
Alrighty.
Megan, we'll start with you.
If you could go back 20 years, what advicewould you give yourself?
I think well, I mentioned part of myrecommendation earlier, which would be getting
(49:24):
a business minor.
But I think another just kinda more generalone, I would, you know, tell myself to slow
down a bit and making sure to, like, enjoy the,like, process of growing within my career and
and connecting with my team, connecting withclients, you know, something that I'm a hard
(49:46):
worker in general.
And so I feel like and I love to take on asmuch as I can, you know, focusing on not taking
on everything and also focusing on it moreengaging more.
And you don't always have to worry aboutgetting everything on your to do list done.
You know, making sure that, you know, thosetimes that you're in the office, you're
(50:08):
definitely connecting with people and andreally focusing on, like, the connection with
your team.
And so still something, I'm a work in progresson, but I think that's that would be one thing.
Yeah.
That's great.
Chris, I wanna hear you.
For me, it's I think I would tell myself thesame thing I'm telling myself right now, which
(50:28):
is, you know, the world is is awash inopportunity.
And, you know, and the people who are going toput themselves in the businesses that are going
to put themselves out there and be bold enoughto grab that opportunity and take the risks are
the ones that are going to succeed.
So that's what I'm working on now, and that'swhat I wish I told myself 20 years ago.
(50:51):
Yep.
K.
Awesome.
That's great.
Great perspective.
Yeah.
This is great.
I'm gonna put all the, social stuff in the shownotes.
That's not a problem.
But for our listeners, if somebody wanna get ahold of you, what's the best way for them to
do that?
I would say check out the new website thatMeghan was instrumental in putting together.
There's a say hello button.
Click that say hello.
(51:12):
We're both happy to talk.
If anyone has any questions or, you know, orgoing through the same struggles we are, let's
connect.
And I think that, also LinkedIn too, also agreat option then, especially because then you
get a chance to see someone's face wheneverthey reach out too and and hopefully remember
them that way.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
This
(51:32):
has been great.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell thepeople before we say our goodbyes?
I'm good, Megan.
Yeah.
No.
Thanks so much for having us on here.
Great talking to you and getting to learn moreabout your company too.
Yeah.
Great.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Listeners, this has been exceptional.
2fer for you today, which is always fun.
And until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
(51:53):
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Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(52:13):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
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Just go to building scale dotnet/help.
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Keep building scale.
Scale.
You guys hiring?
And, she got me an interview, and I and Istarted here.
And and there was a huge contrast in workinghere versus my previous employer.
Like, I felt like they cared that I was here,and they were, you know, investing in my
success, and I was having more responsibility.
And, so echoing everything Megan just said, Ithink we have a really strong, you know,
(00:23):
culture of employee development.
And, you know, also, you know, we we care aboutour people.
And, and we want them to have a career here ifthat's what they wanna do, you know, from start
to finish.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
(00:43):
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forat.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
(01:03):
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
(01:24):
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IP cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to building scale dot net slash health.
Today's guests are 2 principals at ARIA Group,a leading architectural firm specializing in
(01:48):
hospitality design, Chris Hamer and MeganWalsh.
Chris is the president of the firm andspecializes in hospitality design, focusing on
restaurants, hotels, entertainment venues.
Some key projects include Topolobamo, renownedChicago restaurant by Shepherd Bayless, as well
as Tortazzo, a fast casual eatery, also by RickBayless.
Multiple Dave and Buster's throughout the USand Nordstrom Restaurants and Ebar.
(02:12):
Megan Walsh is the chief business developmentofficer at Aria.
She is an expert in fostering strong clientrelationships and collaborative project
leadership and focuses on delivering dynamicand functional spaces for the hospitality
sector.
Some of her projects include Verdot, a Mexicanrestaurant in Austin, Matter Bio Wellness Club,
Bar SoTadno, a speakeasy style mezcal bar inChicago, and Perry's Steakhouse and Grill.
(02:37):
RE Group recent accolades include interiordesign's best of year awards in 24 recognized
for excellence in design, architects newspaperAN awards honorable mention for the Loom
project, and building design and construction'stop a 175 architecture firms in 23 ranked a 104
nationally.
And with all that said, welcome to the show.
(02:57):
Thanks, Justin.
My ears are burning.
I don't know about you, Megan.
Thanks so much, Justin.
I'm getting better at intros.
Like, it's only we're we're about a 125episodes in.
I'm getting I'm getting better at it, where I Ican cut things down.
But when you do a ton of awesome stuff, it'snot always easy to just, like, cut it cut it at
certain spots.
So I I hope I did it justice, but, would loveto hear from you 2 both, of your origin
(03:22):
stories, how you got into the the space, andthen as well as why Aria is so awesome.
Sure.
So for me, my origin story is, you know, when Iwas a kid, my dad had a business.
He founded Hamer Guitars in the 19 seventies,and his job was selling guitars to rock stars.
And I was fully on board with that when I was akid.
(03:42):
I was ready to travel the world and then meetall the cool people.
And then through a, through a dispute with hispartners, he ended up, leaving the business.
And I needed a new job.
So we moved to Oak Park, Illinois where ourfirm actually is located in the and my dad took
me to the Frank Lloyd Wright home and studio.
And seeing that, I was like, this seems prettycool.
(04:03):
After that, we kinda traveled around and didsummer vacations around architecture, and I
fell in love and decided to go to school forit.
That's one beautiful I played music, all mylife.
My dream job is to be a lead singer in a rockband.
So, like, I'm all in
on your shaking out of the song.
Yeah.
I totally I I play drums.
(04:23):
So if you play guitar, hopefully, maybe, thiswill totally work out for us.
Okay.
Great.
What about you, Megan?
Mine's not quite as glamorous as Chris.
I did.
So as a kid, I was always really creative.
So always drawing, painting, doing somethingcreative, not a Lincoln Log or Lego fan.
(04:43):
I was more of a fan of being able to build indifferent directions, like, not stuck in a box,
essentially.
Not stuck with linear.
So Tinkertoys was my building choice of myselection.
And my really close friend from growing up, hermom was an interior designer.
And so I started getting interested in theindustry through interior design and through
(05:07):
through seeing what she did.
So at first, I wanted to be an interiordesigner, and then I kind of kept flipping back
and forth, between architecture and interiors.
And ultimately, now I get to do both.
So I'm very excited that I get to have thatcreative outlet on both sides of the design and
architecture side of of the industry.
(05:27):
I went to school for architecture at Wash U inSt.
Louis.
And ironically, whenever I was at school, wedid a a class trip up to Chicago and visited
Unity Temple, which is actually right behindour office.
So I didn't know that I was gonna end upspending so much of my career in Oak Park.
It was so kind of ironic.
I started in the residential side of the worldside right out of school.
(05:51):
But one of my good friends was working at ARIAand was like, you really should come here.
It's really fun.
I was really interested in the hospitalitydesign side, of the industry and how creative
you get to be.
And so that's what pulled me over to Aria.
And I've been here for a total of 17 years witha a gap of 5 years in there, because we moved
(06:14):
to California for a while for my husband's job.
But I really loved the management style ofARIA.
Came back to ARIA whenever we moved back toChicago.
That boomerang effect.
That's that usually means that there's a goodculture.
So let let's start there.
What why go back to to the same firm?
What what drew you say, hey.
I I need to be back here.
(06:35):
It's super important.
Yeah.
You know, the biggest thing is is the people.
And, you know, our team is really down to earthand and a close knit group overall.
So I would say that's one part.
And connected to people too is we're very it'svery, like, team focused mindset, both
(06:55):
internally and then externally, how we workwith contractors and and engineers always, and
clients, you know, always putting the teamfocused on our work.
So I would say that's the one of the othercomponents.
And then a third component is how we reallyempower our more junior team members within our
office too, and really, you know, are workingon building them up, you know, helping them in
(07:22):
grow in their career.
So I think, you know, especially as a younger,team member, that really that style of
management and that style of helping you growwithin the firm, it was really, really
interesting to me.
So one of the you know, all those thingsdefinitely came together to bring me back.
Yep.
For me, you know, I after school, I went towork for, you know, sort of medium sized
(07:46):
Chicago firm that, you know, is prettyrecognizable name in the city.
And I worked on the same project for 3 years,and when that project wrapped up, they were
kinda like, see you later.
Dotcom bust era.
And, so a friend of mine went to work for Aria,and and I said, hey.
Are you guys hiring?
And, she got me an interview, and I and Istarted here, and and there was a huge contrast
(08:08):
in working here versus my previous employer.
Like, I felt like they cared that I was here,and they were, you know, investing in my
success, and I was having more responsibility.
And, so echoing everything Megan just said, Ithink we have a really strong, you know,
culture of employee development.
And, you know, also, you know, we we care aboutour people, and, and we want them to have a
(08:32):
career here if that's what they wanna do, youknow, from start to finish.
So both the reason why both of you are on theshow is we're gonna we're gonna explore
something that we haven't talked about on theshow.
It isn't talked about in school, inarchitecture school.
It's not talked about in engineering schoolyet.
It's such a big piece of essentially what it isto be part of an architectural firm and that's
(08:54):
becoming a partner or becoming a, really ashareholder, right.
And the path towards that.
So can you talk a little bit about what yourpath looked like?
Did you even, at the time when you had joinedARIA, did you even consider that that was an
option?
And if so, why go after it?
(09:14):
Yeah.
I mean, for me starting, you know, as a 24 yearold kid, it wasn't really something that was on
my radar, but it was something over time thatthat, you know, I became aware of and just sort
of seemed like the next logical step in mycareer.
So started talking to the founders about it,saying that I was interested in it.
(09:36):
And we have some we have one objectivecriteria, and that's time spent at the firm.
We look for someone to be here 10 years beforebeing eligible for ownership.
And then there's a bunch of subjective criteriain terms of client satisfaction and project
success and leadership and things like that.
So but, you know, something we talked about andwhen it was offered, like, I had no idea what I
(10:01):
was getting into.
And, you know, I think we kinda we kindalearned on on our way.
Megan, I'll let you tell your story now.
Yeah.
I think I don't think I necessarily focused onit when I first joined the firm, but definitely
kinda similar to Chris.
Like, over time, realizing, you know, okay.
What would be the progression of my career inthe future here?
And so talking to the principal that led ourteam about the potential there, and I think
(10:26):
I've always been interested in either, like,helping to lead a firm or, like, owning my own
firm.
Just that interested in the, like,entrepreneurial side of of the industry.
So, and being able to kind of craft the path ofa firm too, is really interesting.
You know, you each kind of took a differentpath, around how to get there, but from the
(10:50):
founder's position, why would they, why wouldthey decide that they want to cut a piece of
their own pie?
Right.
Because that's really what happens and allowfor, you know, someone else to come in, and be
part of really shareholder, partially, equityowner.
Why would they want to do that?
(11:11):
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's two reasons really.
One is, you know, they, at some point have totransition and having additional shareholders
as a vehicle for transitioning the business.
And the other is that the whole is greater,than, you know, with adding more people, you
know, that that's the you you make a commitmentto a shareholder that, you know, we believe in
(11:36):
you and the business is going to be greaterwith you in it.
So, you know, you you grow the pie, so tospeak.
And then, you know, even though your pie sliceof the pie may be slightly smaller, if the pie
grows, there's more pie forever.
K.
Yeah.
And I think also, you know, just in general,the founders that really, you know, focused on,
you know, continuing the the future of thebusiness too.
(11:58):
And and really one of the things that makes ussuccessful is our, like, longevity, with, like,
client relationships too.
So I think, you know, continuing thatrelationship with clients and continuing to
help our clients grow, you know, that's likewhat makes us successful in general too.
So they've been really good about, you know,continuing to, like, pass on the, the, like,
(12:23):
leadership of and, you know, connection withthose clients to the rest of us as principals
and, and, you know, throughout our team.
And so I think that is also just the future ofthe company and and kind of that positive of
how to help us succeed in the future is hasbeen really important too.
So what, you know, becoming an owner, becominga shareholder, you know, partner, that sounds
(12:46):
amazing.
Like, the the sound of that sounds likerainbows and unicorns, and this is gonna be the
greatest thing ever.
But, like, what's what's the other side ofthat?
Not, like, not everything's all that it'scracked up to be not to say that's like a bad
decision but like where where maybe themisconceptions like what are what are
misconceptions that maybe you had or you thinkpeople have when they decide hey I'm gonna you
(13:08):
know sign this partnership agreement
Well, yeah.
I mean, for me, it was, this sounds great.
Where do I sign?
And then we went to a we went to a celebratorydinner.
And, on the way home, I was getting a ride fromthe founder of the firm.
And he said, oh, by the way, you know, we'rewe're a subchapter s corporation.
I'm like, what what's that?
(13:28):
I don't know what that is.
And, so that means that we pay the taxes forthe company.
And I'm like, that doesn't make any sense.
And but, you know, by the way, you know, we'llwork with our accountant and and, you know, all
of this was just, like, you know, stepping intoit with but via, you know, almost like shotgun
blast to the face.
Like, I I went home and Googled, like, what'swhat's an s corp?
(13:50):
And what is what is pass through tax?
And what
does all this mean?
So, I mean, it's been a huge huge learningcurve.
I think that's something we've we've tried toaddress with subsequent, you know, generations
of owners just like, hey.
We just want you to here's here's what thismeans.
Here's how everything's structured.
I mean, I think just the the business aspectwas just, was a surprise for sure.
(14:16):
Yeah.
I think I was the ben you know, because I was,like, 2 shareholders later, than Chris, I
believe.
So I had the benefit of more kind ofpreparation, more explanation, but it's still,
you know, it's still surprising, you know, onceyou get to, like, the tax component of what
you're working with, like, things that youdon't have an experience before, you know,
(14:38):
seeing, you know, all sides of the business,you know, seeing having that opened up, and
especially coming into this role without abusiness minor or anything.
You know, I think that's that is, you know,quite shocking, you know, so much to learn, but
at the same time, also really exciting.
Like, you get to that you get to, you know,touch and experience all different sides of the
(15:02):
business.
You know, you're not interacting with all ofit.
You're usually focused on one side of thebusiness, but, you know, very interesting, so
much to learn and, and grow at throughout yourcareer.
Well, so there's a lot to unpack here.
Right?
Because essentially sounds great.
It has definitely a lot of, a lot of benefits,however, the experience and for anyone out
(15:27):
there, right, that's considering to become apartner, probably needs to be a little educated
on what that really means.
So, you know, how would you, and even, evenbefore becoming a shareholder, you know, like
talk about, let's say difference betweenpartner and shareholder, right?
(15:48):
Is there a difference?
At what point can you become a shareholder?
And what does we'll call it moving up theladder?
What does that really mean?
And additionally, what do you wish you hadknown before taking that leap?
Yeah.
I mean, taking the last question first, Ithink, you know, the firm, the firm can have
(16:08):
good years and the firm can have bad years.
Right.
And, COVID was a huge shock to us.
We we designed restaurants and entertainmentfacilities, and that was not a popular business
to be in in 2020 and most of 2021.
Thankfully, it did come roaring breath.
But, you know, in the down years, you know, youyou know, you're kinda first in line to get to
(16:29):
take the hit, and that's that's how it shouldbe.
And then, you know, as far as as far as movingup, I mean, I think, you know, I I wish I could
say we could have the all we had all theanswers there.
I mean, I think that's something we're we'retrying to figure out, you know, for for us, for
our firm right now, we had an immediate needfor a leadership transition because our
founders were looking to retire.
(16:51):
That was a that was a 2 year process justtrying to plan and figure out who's going to be
in what position, and, you know, we useconsulting to help multiple consultants to help
us with that.
And I think the next challenge starts now andhow we're going to transition, you know, the
next tranche of the company for, you know, forour partners who are are looking to retire in
(17:13):
the next 10 years.
So, you know, becoming a shareholder makes youhave responsibilities that is very different
from not being a shareholder.
It's a very different set of responsibilities.
It's not necessarily, and it's not really partof the job description, Right?
(17:33):
Yet the responsibilities are there.
Can you talk a little bit about what that is?
The unwritten stuff, right?
Stuff that's not in the job description.
Sure.
I mean, I think one is a responsibility to growthe firm that that falls more heavily on
shareholders than it does for the rest of the,you know, rest of the rank and file.
(17:54):
Another would be, you know, there's there'sdefinitely a leadership component.
You know, we look at our our shareholders asthe, you know, the the leaders and future
leaders of the firm.
So, you know, that's something we, you know,talk to our people about.
And, you know, a lot of of our shareholders areare leading teams, either larger teams or or
just, you know, multiple project teams.
(18:16):
And they are, you know, they hold key clientrelationships like Megan mentioned.
Megan, anything to add on your end?
Yeah.
I mean, I think another big part that, youknow, we've been focusing on more in the last
few years is strategic planning.
And, you know, learning more about that, eachof us have stepped to, like, focus on a
(18:37):
specific area of strategic planning.
Client strategy is is is what I focus on.
You know, others focusing on, like, financialand growth, operations, people, strategies.
So, you know, that's learning more aboutstrategic planning and and how to plan for not
just the next year, but for, like, 5 years, 10years, you know, and working together to, like,
(19:01):
craft that plan.
You know, on top of the day to day of alleverything else that you're working on.
So which has been, you know, really fun, butalso it was challenging.
It's hard, you know, architecture and designis, is a very, you know, you know, fast, very
busy business.
You know, we're working really hard.
We've got a lot going on.
(19:21):
So making progress on, you know, the strategicplanning has been something that, you know,
sometimes we struggle with.
It's, you know, how can we move things forwardand and still get everything else done, keep
client our clients happy, keep our teams happy.
So, you know, I think that has been, you know,a learning curve and, you know, I think we're
getting better at it, but excited for us to,you know, continue to grow in that.
(19:44):
And, just real quick, we do ask ourshareholders to kinda slot into one of those
Mhmm.
Or sometimes multiple, but one of thosestrategic areas of the business to help Megan
on on marketing or someone else on operations.
Is that, you mentioned, using, consultants, fordifferent aspects.
Is this a piece where you use consultants?
(20:05):
So, like, at Spot, right, we we're on the US.
Right?
So we have an employer comes in.
Literally, I'll be I'll be in Chicago inJanuary for our annual session, that 2nd week
or 1st week of January.
Like, we're on a 90 day schedule of, like, hey.
We are going to every 90 days, we're gonna gettogether as a leadership team and work on the
business.
Right?
Not in the business, on the business.
(20:26):
So is there a structure that you're using, orare you using a consultant, or are you just,
building it as
you go, as they say?
Yeah.
So 2 years ago, we did bring in a consultant tohelp with strategic planning, and we, the you
know, we put together a strategic plan bookdocument that we've referenced over the last
couple years.
(20:47):
Kinda fell by the wayside for a year.
We we all got together this year to refresh it.
So we had, 2 days of meetings.
And, yeah, we're we're looking to push itforward that way organically this year.
You know, you mentioned EOS.
I'm intrigued by that.
You know, a number of businesses in my Vistagegroup run off that, and they have nothing but
(21:07):
good things to say.
So that that could be something that's in thefuture.
Okay.
Well, Dan shout out to Dan Zawacki.
He's our influencer.
He's he's awesome.
I'll make sure that I let him know.
We we mentioned him during the episode.
But, we can't speak highly enough about EOS.
It's you know?
And I think it's it's about having structure.
Right?
It's about having some form of structure.
Uh-huh.
Like, we've not used, like, scaling up or thegreat game of business, similar concepts.
(21:31):
But, like, the idea is if you have a structure,it's a lot easier to push to the things you
want.
Right?
And that's just in life.
Yeah.
I know, Chris, earlier you said that maybe, itwas too early, to talk about philosophy.
Right?
But, like, that's true.
It's in life.
If you are more structured, you have morefreedom, and you get more things that you want.
And I think that structure that the, you know,the consultant we worked with on the first one,
(21:54):
like, really helped us kind of reframe how wedo it for, like, future years.
So Chris was our fearless leader for thisyear's strategic planning.
But yeah, we have at other times we havebrought in other consultants to, like, moderate
on it and help us think outside the box too.
Cause that, you know, making sure that we don'tjust focus on the same things.
(22:14):
We're thinking big picture about the building,the business is really important.
Have you gone to school or taken classes onwe'll call it on strategy?
This is the stuff that's not necessarily,talked about in your normal 4, technically most
RKs are 5 years in the 5 year course, right.
(22:35):
In college or whatnot.
Is this talked about at all or where can theylearn this?
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's, you know, I don't knowif there's any specific book that has helped me
in terms of research, but I think it's, it'ssomething that I would tell my younger self.
I wish I had gotten a business, you know, minoror something, at least, especially, you know,
(22:56):
so many architecture firms are smallbusinesses, you know, so there's so many people
leading a business once, you know, they getinto the work world.
And so that would definitely be something thatI would wish I had done.
And in the meantime, we're, we're like leaninglearning from the consultants instead and and
reading what we can on that topic and andeverything about business in general, I would
(23:19):
say.
Yeah.
For for me, I I joined Vistage in January, andjust it's been a huge learning experience for
me.
Just learning from other business owners onhow, you know, the challenges they're facing,
their strategies, and, you know, seeing theirsuccess has just been incredible.
And I've recommended it to him.
Yeah.
And for me, another thing that has helped isjust podcasts in general.
(23:42):
So podcasts like yours and and others aboutbusiness and all facets business, I think is
really helpful, especially because a podcast ismore current, similar to, like, Chris'
experience at Vistage.
Whereas, like, if you're reading a book, Imean, that is probably a year ago that that was
written.
So especially with, you know, just the businessworld changing so quickly and economy changing
(24:05):
so quickly, having more current informationfrom a podcast or, you know, a magazine article
is is really helpful too.
That's a good point.
Growing your business in 2018 was verydifferent than growing your business in 2020.
Right?
Like, the those some of those, concepts wouldhave just totally been that's not gonna work at
(24:25):
all.
Right?
And and, obviously, that's a very dramaticexample because of COVID.
But that doesn't change the fact that we areevolving in the business world.
Yeah.
And I mean, that even impacts us from, like, adesign and architecture standpoint too.
Like, just the consumer is changing so muchtoo.
So, you know, businesses are becoming morecomplex and more savvy.
(24:47):
So, you know, all sides of it are impacted, youknow, with, with focusing on something more
current versus, you know, a few years ago.
So strategy, obviously learning about itimportant, staying current, super important.
Last piece on the, on the strategy part beforewe move on to a little bit of a related topic.
(25:08):
What about strategy?
And if you could talk about it, maybe even, youknow, in personal experience, what is it about
strategy that's so important yet?
Isn't really learned about, you know, let's sayin school, but you're learning through really
the school of hard knocks.
Right.
What is so important about it and what it, whathave you learned so far from?
(25:33):
Yeah.
I think, you know, our firm's story was, youknow, in 2021, we brought on some consulting to
help us with the transition, and part of thatstrategic plan at, strategic planning meeting
was about benchmarking our firm's performanceto the industry.
So it was, you know, eye opening to see wherewe were doing well and where we were falling
(25:57):
short.
It triggered a thought process in all of us tosee, okay, what changes can we make immediately
to move the needle in the direction we need togo?
And then it's been a process over the last 2years to see if that's worked or not.
And I'm happy to say it has.
I mean, we're the firm's growing and andeverything that we saw in the business that was
(26:18):
lagging behind is moving towards, you know,where where we wanted it to go.
So and, you know, it also gives you a lens totalk to your employees about.
You know, we we like to have an an all firmmeeting at least once a year where we tell
everyone what's going on, what the plan is,what everyone's working on.
And, you know, so we we get to share thatstrategy.
(26:40):
All all the thought that's gone into ways toimprove the business, we get to share that with
our people.
They get on board and good things result fromthat.
What did that secession planning look like?
Or what did what did the strategy look like forfor you guys?
Yeah.
So specifically for us, we saw, you know, theone thing in particular was our utilization
(27:02):
rate was really high.
They consultants said this should be a giantred flag for you guys.
This is the check engine light blinking that,you know, you're it's it's working, but it'll
be a lot easier for you if you actually reduceyour utilization rate.
I mean, it's like, how does that make sense?
But it does make sense.
We we were overbilling the projects, and wewere and they were suffering accordingly.
(27:26):
And we were shortchanging the business and, youknow, not spending the time we needed to on,
you know, improving things internal.
Yeah.
We were focusing a little bit more on ourbusiness as, like, a small business in a way
and focusing less on, like, the big the actualbusiness.
You know, we're a team of a 130 people now.
(27:47):
You know, but when it was formed, you know, in,1989, you know, there had there had been no
plan in terms of growing really big.
So it just has grown over the years, you know,and really grown through our clients' growth
overall.
So it's it's interesting now to, like, reallystart to focus more on things like marketing,
(28:10):
finance, the, like, HR people component morethan we were trying to align more, like, a a
medium sized large firm that we are.
What I guess, for listeners, what's the what isthe size?
Like, how many people are you what does thatlook
Yeah.
So, a little over a a 130, built out of,architects, designers, and then our, you know,
(28:35):
corporate staff too, finding designers too.
So, you know, a a fully mixed team for fulllike, for a full service firm like ours.
No.
It's a very good size firm.
You're, you're probably point something percentof size when it comes to architecture firms
because generally, a lot of them, to yourpoint, are small businesses.
(28:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And especially because everyone's located herein Oak Park too, outside of Chicago.
And so that's unique too.
A lot of times when a firm gets to our size,they normally have multiple offices.
So that's another unique thing as well.
That I assume that's strategically.
Right?
You wanna stay in one location?
You don't wanna open other other arms or otheroffices, or is this, a peek into the future?
(29:20):
I think it's a peek into the future.
You know, we're we're kinda busting at theseams in Oak Park, So something's gotta give if
we continue to grow.
I think, you know, we have a very strongculture in our team, you know, of of Yeah.
Collaboration and and all being in one placereally helps that.
And we've able to grow a national footprint,you know, despite only having one office
(29:42):
location.
But I think we're, you know, we're we're aboutto outgrow our our environment.
So there may be some changes coming there.
Got it.
Well, I I have I
think COVID post COVID too, you know, werealized, like, we can work virtually more
easily, you know, both with our clients and andwith our team too.
(30:02):
So that it wouldn't necessarily inhibit us fromstill collaborating, you know, remotely.
For sure.
I have no, obviously, eyes of the strategicside.
But Arizona is a great place for a secondoffice, just so you're aware.
We have heard that.
We will consider it.
Yeah.
It's lovely, so I highly recommend it.
So, Megan, for you, so we're talking aboutstrategy a little bit.
(30:27):
As a principal that oversees BD and marketing,what does that look like for the future?
You know, in in general, the biggest way we'vegrown over the past has really been through
referrals since we are such a good teamcollaborator, referrals through our clients,
through the GCs that we work with, and, youknow, other partners.
You know, the GCs that we work with especiallyhave a since we are so team focused, we have a
(30:54):
different view on on collaborating with thecontractor.
You know, oftentimes in the past, you know,architects and contractors have have bedded
heads more so, and we really see it as, like,let's work together.
Like, let's figure out the problem together.
We're not gonna play the blame game.
So in general, I think that has had a bigimpact overall, in our growth.
(31:17):
We since the business has grown throughreferrals, like, we didn't wrestle necessarily
think about it as referral marketing, but itis, like, the best kind of marketing.
So it's wonderful that whenever you're doinggreat work, whenever you're great to work with,
that that's how you grow.
So we wanna, of course, continue that, but wealso have really made a, large focus on meeting
(31:40):
more people, like expanding our network, goingto like more conferences to both learn from
what's going on in the industry, but also tolike meet, meet more people and build
relationships.
So, you know, I think because we are a verypeople focused team that has been a large focus
of from a marketing standpoint.
Another thing is also kind of building ourbrand presence in the industry too.
(32:06):
We just launched a brand new website, soexcited to have that project completed.
And then just are continuing to, like, buildour social media presence, and want to, in this
next year, continue to build other sections ofour marketing.
Direct mail, really engaging our team in inbuilding relationships too and building you
(32:28):
know, continuing to network more.
So it's an exciting time and and a lot to dofrom a marketing standpoint.
Yeah.
I I think just to touch on a little more on thestrategy picture.
I think we've we've kinda realized we're we'rea large firm sustained by a ton of small
projects.
So how can we get into hospitality adjacent orentertainment adjacent industries or verticals
(32:54):
to grow our business further.
So we one of our biggest time clients isTopgolf.
That's led to some sports projects.
Can we amp up the sports aspect of ourbusiness?
You know, I think, we've worked in hotel spacefor a while, but it's not a huge part of our
portfolio.
How can we amp that up?
So I think that's what we're we're looking atin the next 5 years to as a as the best avenue
(33:14):
for growing our business.
No.
That that makes a lot of sense.
Obviously, we were doing one thing really wellfor a long time, and then you start expanding
what those other things that you can do reallywell.
It makes sense when you have a client that youdo great work for, and then they say, you did
great work.
Let me give you more work.
Right?
That that's easy.
But how do you go about getting the 1st job?
(33:36):
Like, how do you go about finding the nextgreat chef or the, you know, the next sporting
event?
How do you how do you build the Bears or WhiteSox stadium or, you know, design the stadium
when that comes around?
Right?
Like, how do you get to that place to then beable to have reoccurring, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, I think part of it is is by providinggreat quality and and, you know, great overall
(34:01):
designing great projects and also having a highlevel of client service.
You know, then your clients also become thebest marketers for you talking about how you're
doing great work and how you're great to workwith.
So I think that that's definitely important.
And also marketing that marketing that greatwork too, and getting that out into industry.
(34:23):
Topgolf has been, you know, a major marketingcomponent, and may connected us to a lot of
people overall, you know, seeing the great workthat that team is doing and seeing the great
work that that client is doing has really,really brought us into more sides of of the
entertainment industry, which has really beenhelpful for our growth.
(34:43):
But in general, in I think our team justcontinuing to do a great job is is one of the
most important things.
Well, next time you're having a company party,hopefully not January, make sure I'm invited to
the Topgolf event.
I'm I'm very
It's better in January than you think it wouldbe.
Really?
Well, there you go.
Plenty warm.
It's a lot of heaters.
Yeah.
One thing that we haven't talked about, it'sdecision making sort of partnership, you know,
(35:09):
whether or not you have equity, does it play aneffect into making decisions within the company
or something that we know that happens within,architectural engineering firms is committees.
So So I'll talk a little bit about decisionmaking, whether or not you use committees, how
and why you use committees.
(35:30):
Sure.
We have committees for various aspects of thebusiness, and that is tends to be, you know,
more open to any employee wants to So we we doa newsletter quarterly, and that's managed by
Megan, but run by, our marketing department andvarious employees in the firm.
(35:51):
There's also a wellness committee that putstogether events.
There's a social committee that also putstogether events centered on, you know, our
holiday party.
And we're having our annual Yankee swap thisafternoon.
So they're responsible for putting thattogether.
Yeah.
That's fine.
Ton of fun.
So it's a long standing tradition.
At a high level, I mean, I think we areorganized into our strategic initiatives around
(36:14):
people, operations, finance, and BD and them.
That I think, you know, we we set the strategytogether.
I think we like to make decisions based aroundconsensus as much as possible.
So I think that fosters, you know, aninclusive, collaborative and
when it comes to decision making, withcommittees, you know, cause it is a way to be,
(36:37):
to be more collaborative.
What, is there a reason why a committee would,let's say, make a decision, but then get over,
overwritten or kind of vetoed by a partner?
If so, why or why not?
I don't think it happens very often.
If if it if it were to happen, I think eitherthe decision seems to be more would result in
(37:04):
inefficiency now or put up a roadblock togetting getting the work done and out the door,
or it's just cost that's not in the budget.
Yeah.
I think also too, if, you know, if it might notalign with, like, the bigger strategic goals of
that year too, or it might be a great idea,might be something we definitely wanna do at
(37:26):
some point, but the timing just may not beright.
Like, we need to push another strategy forwardfirst before we get to that strategy.
So I think that and also making sure that we'rethinking about all parts of it.
I think that's where, like, the collaborationacross strategies is helpful too, that we're
considering, you know, just marketing, butwe're also considering, like, the financial
(37:50):
side and the growth side of the company.
So making sure you're because everything is sointerconnected.
And, and that really is something that like,oh, I think even getting into this, as we
started became principals, we weren'tnecessarily thinking about how interconnected
everything is.
And it's something that, you know, we can needto continue to be better at is to kind of see
(38:12):
how the we can connect those dots and informeach other's decisions more effectively.
What about at the leadership level?
Like, so, obviously, you have shareholders, 6of them, I believe, currently and a board.
So, like, how do decisions get made at thatlevel, not necessarily at a community level?
Yeah.
So we have, 6 principals.
(38:33):
And then overall, I think 18 shareholders.
Right, Chris?
Yeah.
So, I mean, in general, you know, in ourprincipal meetings, weekly, typically, day to
day decisions, It's more of, like, consensusthan anything.
So, I mean, major decisions, we would vote onthose together.
But, Chris, do you wanna speak about it alittle bit more?
(38:55):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the the board is responsiblefor overall strategy and and approving that,
you know, the direction of the firm overall.
I think I think we are kinda set up on a EOSlight model.
And as Meaghan mentioned, we have we haveweekly leadership meetings where we go down
what's big picture stuff first, and then we godrill down into each of the strategic
(39:19):
initiatives, check-in, document the new news,document the decisions.
And as much as possible, I think we're we'retrying to make decisions as a group.
And, you know, I think when when that doesn'twork out, you know, some somebody's gotta
occasionally make an unpopular decision, andthat's usually me.
So, it doesn't happen very often, though.
(39:40):
I think we do a good job of talking things outand and coming to consensus.
So Well, if you wanna talk EOS, the booksbehind me, the ones that are in orange, you can
kind of tell we're big proponents of EOS.
We can talk hours and hours upon that.
Not that we can do that right now, but justwanted to put that out there.
Unpopular decisions.
I wanna just, I just wanna ask about that realquick.
(40:04):
Why would it be unpopular?
And if you can share even a decision or 2 as towhy you had to make those decisions that were
unpopular, Why make the why make thoseunpopular decisions?
Well, I think, you know, we we use ourstrategic plan as a guide.
And if something doesn't fit that, you know,sometimes we just we gotta say no.
(40:25):
I mean and it's sometimes it's like, I'm tryingto think of I can't think of any examples right
now of an unpopular decision I had to make.
Maybe Meghan can.
But
I actually can't
at the moment.
So few and far between then?
Yeah.
I think
so.
Yeah.
I think and then another component of it is,you know, just even how do we share that
(40:48):
decision?
Like, what's you know, sharing the reasoning,like, being as clear and transparent as
possible is really important, both with ourshareholder team, as well as, you know, the
full office.
So I think no matter what, like, it's it'sstill a business.
It's like, we need to make money.
Like, we're not here to just, you know, createonly.
So we need to make sure and especially as we'relearning in our roles that, us focusing on like
(41:14):
the finances even more, especially at thebeginning has been really important both to
prove to the board that we can do that, butalso we're learning, and we wanna make sure
that we continue to grow the company and anddon't make a misstep in any way.
Actually, I can talk quickly about a a apersonal failure, and that was definitely an
(41:35):
unpopular decision.
That wasn't communicated well that I thinkwe've owned up to.
So we were doing we we have annual performancereviews, and we were tying salary increases to
those performance reviews.
And they were happening at more or less aroundthe employee's anniversary date every year.
So we had salary updates every billing period.
(41:59):
We have a 130 people.
There's there's it's and it's it was completechaos on the project planning side because
everybody's billable rates were updatingmultiples you know, many times throughout the
year.
It was really difficult for our projectmanagers to stay on top of the plans.
So we had to we did we made the decision toseparate out salary reviews from performance
(42:23):
reviews.
We were gonna do performance reviews throughoutthe year, salary reviews at one time throughout
the year, and we looked at this year as atransition year.
So we let everyone know, on a quarterly basisthat we were going to do salary reviews until
we got to the end of the year, and then nextyear, all salary reviews happen at once.
And I did a very bad job of communicating thatto the staff.
(42:45):
And I think, you know, there were definitelysome people out there who felt that there were
nefarious reasons for why we were doing this.
So, you know, we got the feedback that it wasunpopular.
I owned up.
Hey.
I need to do a better job, communicating thisto the staff.
And, yeah, I'd I received some subsequentfeedback that everyone appreciated, you know,
(43:06):
us owning up to a mistake and an area where wefell short.
And I think that, you know, being vulnerable,you know, can can buy you a lot of goodwill
when you kinda step on your own toes.
That kinda leads into the the concept ofculture and, like, how do you keep it going?
Right?
You both came, Aria, because friends told youabout it, which is always a good sign.
(43:27):
That means good things are happening, but thatthey care.
Like, they, like, they showed you that theycared.
So, like, how are you intentionally making surethat that's still top of mind now that you're
leading the
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's just communication, youknow, at every you know, we just had a holiday
party.
And the part of the reason for the venue wasit's an important historical project for the
(43:53):
firm.
We're celebrating the founders as they exit thecompany.
And my my way of celebrating that to the staffwas to talk about how times that I made
mistakes with with each of the 3 of them that,you know, they ultimately forgave.
So it's it's about building a culture wherepeople feel okay making mistake.
(44:15):
We don't want people hiding it.
You know, the our our thing with our clientsand our people is that we're we're gonna own
up, and we're gonna take responsibility.
I think so that's just an example of of how wetry to do that and how we try to communicate,
you know, our culture.
Is that Yeah.
And I oh, go ahead.
Go ahead.
No.
Go ahead.
I think, you know, also just empowering ourteam, supporting them in their growth.
(44:39):
Like, I think that also goes a lot a long wayas well as creating, like, team environments
where everyone's collaborating together, youknow, and has is able to build that team
camaraderie.
And in general, I think hiring practices areimportant too, just like hiring, you know,
(45:00):
continuing to hire more people that are alignedwith our culture, our values.
And in general, I think, you know, it helpswhen we do get friend recommendation
recommendations.
That definitely goes a long way.
But, you know, we have a team of really down toearth, you know, hardworking, and creative.
(45:22):
And I think, you know, just good people.
And I think that goes so such a long way.
And then if we get to work with, you know, goodclients too and good, you know, good partners,
that continues to snowball in a good way andcontinues to, like, move our culture forward.
Good people attract good people in all kinds ofways internally to the firm as well as
(45:45):
externally.
Clients or big fans of yours.
Right?
Exactly.
So you mentioned core values.
Is that something that is documented, somewherethat says, hey.
These are our core values.
It's not just a feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We that was part of the strategic planning aswell is to, like, focus on our core values, our
creating our mission statement, and our vision.
(46:07):
And so something that took a long time, youknow, when you have a lot of people, like,
working on it together.
But overall, I see it as something like,although that we created this, this could also
continue to evolve too and and grow as as wegrow.
So definitely exciting to think about how canwe bring now that we have those established,
(46:28):
how can we bring those into other parts of ourcompany and and, like, other parts of our
process?
And, you know, make sure that that's moreintentional as well.
Yeah.
I, like hiring.
Right?
Like, this is, like, for us.
Right?
It's just like we always are hiring on onvalues.
Obviously, there needs to be a technical skill.
You can't hire me as an architect even though Ithink I'd built some cool stuff.
(46:50):
I'm just throwing it out there.
But that would be a horrible decision.
Right?
Even if I met all the core values, but it issuch a huge portion of that.
So is that now intertwined into not only therecruiting process, but also hiring and then
continued instilling.
Right?
Like, you have to, you know, they say you haveto keep telling people the same thing over and
over again.
They say 7 times for anybody to hear anything.
(47:11):
If you don't like, if I don't tell you that I'mcandid and spot migration were candid, I don't
say candid 4 more times, you'll never rememberthat we're candid Yeah.
3 more times.
Yeah.
So is that built into the process now?
I think it is somewhat, but I think it'ssomething that, like, we'll continue to
integrate more.
You know, I know, Diane, one of the theprincipal that leads the people strategies is,
(47:34):
like, working on adjusting, continuing toevolve, like, our job descriptions.
And we're we just started to partner with 155,with a com so a company that'll help us with
our HR process too.
And I think that'll also continue to inintegrate more ways that that we can u utilize
it too.
Chris, any other add in to that?
(47:56):
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think we were strategic withour values and, you know, our mission statement
to align across the the strategic areas of ourbusiness.
So, I mean, just really quickly, you know, ourcore values are are deliver, you know, from the
big picture to the tiny details we go above andbeyond.
I don't have this memorized.
You shouldn't until I'm reading it.
(48:17):
You know, to initiative, challenge yourself,and innovate to step out of your comfort zone.
Community, we try we strive to enrich ourcommunity and the environment through our work
and collaborate.
Teamwork and inclusivity are ingrained in ourprocess.
And I
think I think there's you know, that that workswith our employees just as well as it works
with our, you know, our clients and our BDpitch.
(48:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That sounds like you're also defining who youlike to work with.
It's a reflection of not just internal, butalso externally.
So kind of represents all the way around andaround.
I feel more values then.
Right?
Because if it's just, some aspirational thingsthat sound great if we had people like this,
that doesn't actually work.
So, when it's when it's more true to who youare and then also externally true to those that
(49:03):
you're trying to attract, like, it just works.
Justin, I think it's time for our lastquestion.
What do you think?
I think so.
And we have 2, so we'll get double the doublethe advice.
Yeah.
Alright.
Alrighty.
Megan, we'll start with you.
If you could go back 20 years, what advicewould you give yourself?
I think well, I mentioned part of myrecommendation earlier, which would be getting
(49:24):
a business minor.
But I think another just kinda more generalone, I would, you know, tell myself to slow
down a bit and making sure to, like, enjoy the,like, process of growing within my career and
and connecting with my team, connecting withclients, you know, something that I'm a hard
(49:46):
worker in general.
And so I feel like and I love to take on asmuch as I can, you know, focusing on not taking
on everything and also focusing on it moreengaging more.
And you don't always have to worry aboutgetting everything on your to do list done.
You know, making sure that, you know, thosetimes that you're in the office, you're
(50:08):
definitely connecting with people and andreally focusing on, like, the connection with
your team.
And so still something, I'm a work in progresson, but I think that's that would be one thing.
Yeah.
That's great.
Chris, I wanna hear you.
For me, it's I think I would tell myself thesame thing I'm telling myself right now, which
(50:28):
is, you know, the world is is awash inopportunity.
And, you know, and the people who are going toput themselves in the businesses that are going
to put themselves out there and be bold enoughto grab that opportunity and take the risks are
the ones that are going to succeed.
So that's what I'm working on now, and that'swhat I wish I told myself 20 years ago.
(50:51):
Yep.
K.
Awesome.
That's great.
Great perspective.
Yeah.
This is great.
I'm gonna put all the, social stuff in the shownotes.
That's not a problem.
But for our listeners, if somebody wanna get ahold of you, what's the best way for them to
do that?
I would say check out the new website thatMeghan was instrumental in putting together.
There's a say hello button.
Click that say hello.
(51:12):
We're both happy to talk.
If anyone has any questions or, you know, orgoing through the same struggles we are, let's
connect.
And I think that, also LinkedIn too, also agreat option then, especially because then you
get a chance to see someone's face wheneverthey reach out too and and hopefully remember
them that way.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
This
(51:32):
has been great.
Is there anything else you'd like to tell thepeople before we say our goodbyes?
I'm good, Megan.
Yeah.
No.
Thanks so much for having us on here.
Great talking to you and getting to learn moreabout your company too.
Yeah.
Great.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Listeners, this has been exceptional.
2fer for you today, which is always fun.
And until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
(51:53):
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(52:13):
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