May 20, 2025 • 51 mins
Darlene Cadman joins Justin Neagle to discuss Integrated Project Delivery (IPD) in the AEC industry. They explore IPD contracts, focusing on collaboration, risk, and reward sharing, and emphasize target value design and team selection in lean construction. Darlene shares insights on lean practices, including respect for people and understanding flow, as well as pull planning, visual planning, and collaboration. The episode highlights the importance of leadership, accountability, and structured planning in both work and personal life. It concludes with Darlene's contact information and productivity hacks.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We had two schools under one contract.
(00:02):
It was about 50,000,000.
And in the end, our group, our contract, wesaved $2,000,000 on top of our profit pool.
So we split $50.50 with the owner.
The team got an extra million dollars to usefor other things, and the owner got a million
dollars to use for other things.
(00:22):
It's pretty amazing.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of buildingscale, specifically the building connection
series where I get to talk to awesome peoplethat I meet in my day to day life to talk about
business, talk about connections, talk aboutall kinds of ideas that kind of put the
spectrum across the board, and my guest todayis no exception to that.
(00:45):
So much so when we had lunch a couple weeksago, she'd said, hey.
We should just record these, conversationsbecause they're always so good.
Even if we didn't release them, as a podcast,we should just record them because they're full
chock full of stuff, and I couldn't agree more.
So, today's guest is Darlene Cadman.
She is got 25 of experience in the constructionspace, an architect by trade, but is currently
(01:11):
a consultant for lean construction activities.
She began her career focused on k 12 schools.
So when you think of elementary, high school,all that fun stuff, she was doing that,
managing large multi disciplinary things acrosskinda a whole bunch of different complex
projects.
She led a firm in 2014, group '2 architecturethrough Alberta's first integrated project
(01:35):
delivery, IPD, which is a big part of theconversation today, which is why I mentioned
it.
She currently is the founder of WEF StrategiesLP, and specializes in the concept of
implementing IPD in a contract as well as leanconcepts in a in a construction business.
So this is a lot of fun for me is is the simpleway to to put it.
(01:55):
So I hope you have as good of a time as I did.
And with that said, here's the conversation weinteract.
It is it's like we're kindred, souls somehow,you know.
I think we are.
And it's it just I don't know.
I have a ton of fun.
(02:15):
I'm always smiling after all our interactions.
And I always learn a construction space,architecture, how things are done, just in
general, what you've seen.
And I'm hoping that the listeners of the showcan get the value that I get.
It won't feel the same, but they're going toget the value that I get when we interact.
Well, get a lot of value out of you too,Justin, because whenever I talk to you, you're
(02:38):
the only other person I know who has moreproductivity ideas than I do about how to get
your work done.
So I super appreciate all the time that wespend together.
Cause you're like, hey, what about that thing?
Let's come back to that.
You also keep me on track, which I enjoy.
Well, anytime I can be helpful.
I actually have a new, journal for productivityright in front of me.
So yeah, look at that.
Look at that.
And I have this from talking to you last time,which is productivity timer.
(03:00):
Reminder, use the productivity timer.
Oh yeah.
That's awesome.
So one thing that I had, I had this feeling orvision, before we met that like the
construction space can just be better.
Like it can, it can operate more efficiently.
It can, have more collaborative contributionfurther on the front end, more, more of that
(03:21):
than the somewhat of a hierarchy that you seefrom developer to GC to sub, to sub sub, like
all the way down.
And then I met you and then you startedexplaining what, IPD was.
And I was like, wait, what?
There's a thing that exists already that's likein my brain that I have no idea about?
So I'd love for you to talk a little bit aboutthat and and and what you've seen work as well
(03:44):
as maybe how you see it work here in The Statesas well.
Well, for sure.
Thanks.
So, know, I've been in this industry now fortwenty five years and when I started, I started
as an architect, well, an intern which takesone hundred years to become an architect.
We did a lot of design bid build, which is hardbid as a lot of people know.
(04:07):
Not too much design build and I almost neversaw construction management.
And so for years and years, I did a lot of workfor and I was in Canada, a lot of school
projects that were design bid build.
And so I really got to understand how thatparticular system works, which as we all know,
it's the race to the lowest bid and the lowestbid And, you know, I've seen all sorts of
(04:32):
things happen, you know, the contractors thatput in their bid and they forgot to add in the
steel decking into their total.
So they're out by a million dollars on a schoolproject.
Or, you know, this contractor, it's actuallythey went out of business so they're not gonna
be there.
Now we've seen it all.
And then being on-site and and all the, youknow, this happening.
(04:53):
Yeah.
A lot of lot of going back and forth and tryingto hold hold the line on various things and
just not being more combative thancollaborative.
Right?
And it's it's the way that that world isbecause of the race to the bottom and it's not
set up to be it's just not set up to be supersuccessful and to have good camaraderie and to
(05:14):
develop relationships, not good ones anyways.
So, know, I was meandering along my careerpath.
It is meandering.
And about fifteen years in, my former boss,Craig Weber from Group two Architecture, he's
like, hey, we've got this project coming up andwe're gonna do it IPD.
And I'm like, what?
What is IPD?
He's like, integrated project delivery.
(05:36):
And he explained integrated project delivery iswhere the owner, the architect, and the
contractor are in the same contract together ata minimum, so they call that a tri party.
And oftentimes it's a poly party or a multiparty agreement that includes the rest of the
design team like your engineers, otherarchitects, if you have landscape architect,
interior designer, and it can also include alsothe contracting parties or the, as they're
(06:00):
typically called subcontractors, we like tocall them trade partners.
Yes.
They are involved as well.
And what you're looking for in an IPD contractis about 75 to 85% of the value of the project,
people who contribute to the value likemechanical systems, structural systems being in
the contract to work collaboratively together.
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So these guys all sign the contract together,they work together, and they're contracted to
do lean practices, which is an interestingthing because not very many contracts have lean
practices in them.
Although the DBIA does have some contracts thattalk about lean practices.
And then they're also sharing risk reward.
We hear lots about contracts that have penaltyclauses like if you're not done by this date,
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we're taking money away or we're fining you orwhatever it is.
But this is a risk reward contract.
So in these contracts, everybody's profit is atrisk.
So everybody jumps in the pool, they're gettingpaid for their hours, but what they're being
paid for is time and overhead only no profit.
And your profit is in a risk pool and that riskpool is your carrot, right?
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It's the thing that you're trying to achieve.
If your project budget is $100,000,000 and yougo to $101,000,000 that extra $1,000,000 comes
out of your profit pool.
And so you are incentivized not only to keepthe project on budget, but through lean
practices, drive the costs down so that you canincrease your profit pool because that stack of
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money, which is your direct costs andeverything plus your profit, the line of how
much the profit is moves based on where yourcosts are in construction.
So it is fantastic way of working together andeverybody's incentivized because who doesn't
want to make a profit?
I mean, theoretically architects really do wantto make a profit.
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So, it's a really different way of workingtogether.
And at the time when my, boss said to me, hey,you're gonna do this project and it's IPD, I
was like, no, I'm not.
No, no.
I don't know what I'm doing.
You know, you get in a after being in theindustry for fifteen years at that point, I was
comfortable with what I was doing and nobodygrows from a place of comfort.
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We all know that.
So there was some rapid growth that had tooccur and painful growth that had to occur.
But in the end, that first project which wastwo schools and these schools were delivered
for Red Deer Catholic School District.
They are government funded and they had aspecific dollar value, but they also had a very
(08:39):
specific area allocation.
In Canada it's meters squared not feet squared.
So it's meters squared that we had to build fora certain dollar value.
Now although you can build it for less, youcannot change the meterage.
So the scope, the actual scope of the physicalconstruction of the amount of space, that's not
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on the table.
So you have to work together to figure out howto get this project at or below market cost
through innovative practices, lean design, leandelivery.
It was an interesting challenge.
But we had two schools under one contract.
It was about 50,000,000.
And in the end, our group, our contract, wesaved $2,000,000 on top of
(09:23):
our
profit pool.
So we split $50.50 with the owner.
The team got an extra million dollars to usefor other things, and the owner got a million
dollars to use for other things.
It's pretty amazing.
That's super awesome.
We talk about collaboration, like that's that'sreal collaboration.
Like, the industry is collaborative.
It has to be.
(09:44):
It doesn't work.
Like, you can't build something, and notcollaborate.
Architect, GC, trade partners.
Like, it has to happen.
Right?
Yep.
But this, you know, puts money where your mouthis, essentially, saying like, no.
No.
No.
We're gonna be really, really, really good atcollaboration because it's it's imperative for
us to make a profit.
Exactly.
(10:04):
And also the type of contract that you havewhere everybody's in the pool together, so to
speak, and they are clauses in the contract.
We use the Hanson Bridge a lot.
There's another one in Canada under theCanadian Construction Association called the
CCDC thirty.
Mhmm.
It's okay as a contract as well.
A lot of the contractors in the East Of Canadause it.
In the West, as usual, there's an East Westdivide.
(10:27):
But in the West, they mostly use, the HansenBrigitte contract.
And Hansen Brigitte is a law firm out ofCalifornia actually, who started doing the
contracts there on I call it one of the OGprojects which is Temecula Valley was a
healthcare project in California.
And so they've been doing their contracts for awhile and in those contracts though not only do
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you have the risk reward and you're all inthere together.
More interestingly as well is that youindemnify each other.
You're choosing not to go after each other.
You're choosing to work together, which isamazing.
Indemnify meaning what?
Like, what what does that mean?
The collaboration part makes sense, but what isthis other piece?
Well, the indemnification part is importantbecause it means that you're choosing not to
(11:13):
sue each other.
So you're entering into this contract with anagreement.
Generally good idea when you're trying topartner up with people.
Which is I know it sounds hilarious.
Like, it sounds so strange.
Like, I'm choosing not to sue you, but thinkabout how much how much our society is
litigious, especially in construction.construction.
I mean, there are very few I mean, are very fewin this industry that haven't experienced some
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sort of litigious or litigation of some sort oranother.
So, to enter into a contract where you'reagreeing not to sue the other parties is kind
of a big deal.
I don't, I don't how many people have chosen togo into a contract like that, but it is, it's
an interesting choice.
So not only are you in risk reward, you'rechoosing not to, sue each other and you have to
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work together in order to bring this budget orthe cost of the construction into alignment
with the contract.
I mean, it's not easy to do.
There's a whole process called target valuedesign that you do within lean construction
that kind of go hand in hand with it.
And that target value design is what you haveto work with, such as the architects and the
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designers pulling together this lovely designthat is an edifice unto themselves.
It's also the trade partners working with youto say, hey, you know, maybe if we did it this
way, we could reduce labor, we could have abetter install, some of these details might be
a little better.
So we actually work together to hear both sidesof the story as we're progressing, which I find
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fascinating.
Alright.
So how does one find the the team of ofplayers?
Right?
So it's sounds like, to your point, there'sthere's a lot of litigation that occurs in
construction, and there certainly can.
So I have to imagine going into a contract withsomebody like this, you would want to have a
pretty good understanding of them and whatyou're gonna get out of them.
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If it's design or if it's a specialty trade orwhatever it is, you probably wanna make sure
that this isn't just somebody I found onGoogle.
It'd be my guess.
This is true.
This is true.
So, there's actually a really long onboardinginterview proposal process.
We call it a waterfall system.
And so, the proposal process often starts withthe owner saying, okay, I'm going out for
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architect and contractor because the tri partyis always the root of of the beginnings.
And they either choose to go with the architectfirst or the contractor often do them at the
same time.
Usually, choose one or the other, and it'swhomever you're comfortable with.
Some people have a good relationship with theirarchitects or a better relationship with their
contractors, but one or the other.
And then so the owner chooses one of those, andthen they bring on each party.
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So if you choose your architect first, now it'sthe owner and the architect choosing the
general contractor.
And then you add them to it.
So now it's the owner, the architect, and thegeneral contractor, and they start choosing the
engineers.
And then you bring the engineers all on boardand all of that team, including the engineers,
then chooses the trade partners.
So, we do a whole proposal end of things, whichis a fairly rigorous proposal.
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You have to explain your lean methodology.
You have to explain your understanding oftarget value design and delivery.
You have to do a RACI.
I don't know if you guys know these Yep.
The matrix of who's involved in theresponsibility matrix.
So, we do all of those things, but the mostintriguing or interesting part to me is the
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interview process.
So, once we have shortlisted to, you know,three, four proponents, then they have to
interview.
And this is no normal interview.
This isn't show up, do a PowerPointpresentation, and tell me how amazing you are
because you know what, anybody can do that.
And in fact, unfortunately, I had one proponentfairly recently who used AI to answer all the
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questions that we gave them and then read themto us as their response in the interview, which
was torture.
So what we do is we have sometimes we give outthe questions ahead of time.
Sometimes we don't.
We usually have about seven or eight questions.
We give them about ninety minutes, but we diveright into what we call an exercise.
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And it usually takes about twenty minutes,sometimes a half an hour depending on how much
time we want.
And it's a collaborative game, usually.
My favorite one is called toxic waste.
We get we get these people in the room.
They're usually allowed to bring four or fivepeople depending, and we do a toxic waste
exercise.
So we put a thing up and it says here's therules of the game.
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There is a circle over here and a circle overthere, and inside this circle is a bucket and
it has a bunch of tennis balls in it and thetennis balls represent toxic waste.
The bucket is the thing that contains the toxicwaste and the circle is the safe zone.
The only time the bucket of toxic waste cantouch the ground is when it's in the safe zone.
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And you can't touch the bucket.
You can't get your face over the bucket becausethe toxic waste will kill you.
You can't touch the bucket in any way.
By the way, here's some tools.
And then they have a whole bunch of bungeecords, a hook, and some clothes pegs.
Here's your tools.
You have to get the bucket of toxic waste fromthis safe zone to this safe zone over here and
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then you have to dump the tennis balls whichrepresent the toxic waste into the bucket in
the other safe zone.
And you have to do it without dying, and youhave twenty minutes.
In this twenty minutes, you have five minutesor so to plan if you like, and then you start
the exercise.
And you're not allowed to kill somebody off asa noble cause.
Like, I'll sacrifice myself to dunk them in thebucket.
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You can't do that.
But if you stick your face over it, you're deadand now you can no longer participate in the
exercise.
Or if you touch it with your hand, now youcan't use your hand in the exercise, so you're
one handed.
Good reminder for safety training.
So okay.
Right?
So they have to figure out how they're gonnause the tools, which inevitably means that they
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use a bungee cords to make this thing that goesover it and they have the hook and they lower
it and they hook the bucket and take it over.
Inevitably, most of them figure it out.
Sometimes they don't.
There's the odd limb that gets taken off.
Sometimes somebody puts their head over thebucket and dies, but most of the time they have
like probably an eighty five percent successrate.
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But the really interesting thing is what we'retrying to do is get them to problem solve in a
confined amount of time so that we can see whothey really are.
Because anybody can say, I'm collaborative, Iwork well with others, all my projects are
collaborative, you know, we've workedcollaboratively for years and we have it all
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figured out.
But you put somebody in a room where they'retrying to get, you know, a project worth
several million dollars to their firm, and yougive them twenty minutes to do an exercise with
a bunch of people, and then you count it down.
You're like, oh, you only have five minutesleft.
And they start to get nervous and they start tolike and sometimes you will see dictatorships,
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you know, like, no, I said you're gonna dothis.
You're gonna do it this way.
Sometimes you see servant leadership where theleader in the room is like, Well, what do you
think we should do?
Well, do we want to consider this?
What do you guys think?
So, you see how people actually act underpressure, and this is how we sort of whittle it
down to who's really going to get selected.
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Whether or not they get the toxic waste dumpedinto the other bucket is irrelevant.
It's how they get there and how they behave onthe way.
It's really interesting.
So that's awesome.
I love all of that.
That, that to me is the ultimate, interviewexperience, right?
Like how do you actually perform in a task thatone can be very dangerous, right?
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Toxic ways, right?
Very dangerous, but also like there's not ablueprint that you're following.
So you have to be creative and you have a timeset and you have to work as team.
Right?
So, like, that's like the ultimate, interviewprocess in in my opinion.
Yeah.
I wanna do this now.
I need to start interviewing people just simplyso I can do this because this sounds like
amazing.
(19:12):
Totally.
Especially if you have people that are gonnawork in teams.
You wanna see how they actually work.
No.
Totally.
Also, you'd mentioned lean being a a corecomponent here.
So as I'm thinking through, certainly on theconstruction side, there's not a ton, it's not
the majority certainly that are using leanpractices, certainly to the extent that can be
(19:33):
revolutionary in regards to efficiency.
Is there that an issue of like, man, likethere's just a small pool of companies that can
really fit into this bucket just simply becauselean hasn't, it hasn't had its tentacles
everywhere yet, which I think overarchinglywill occur because it just makes sense.
But today you have lots of constructioncompanies that are not thinking in a lean
manner.
(19:54):
This is true.
So one of the things that we do is when IPDfirst came out, nobody had done it before,
right?
So we're all newbies.
And what that teaches us is that anybody canlearn how to do it.
That's the reality, right?
So if you have a willingness and you have adrive and you have a certain amount of
intelligence, you can figure it out.
(20:15):
It's not hard to do.
So the reality is, is if you're interviewingpeople who may not have started any lean
practices in their own work, in their own firm,in their own companies, it doesn't mean that
they can't learn it.
And if you're willing to join on a team and putyour profit at risk, you're going to learn
quickly and you're going to learn well.
So it's a willingness really that matters.
(20:37):
What I do see though in the industry isregardless of whether it's IPD or design build
or Centimeters or God forbid even DB, peopleare starting to use Lean in their practices.
Contractors are starting to use it more andmore in any contract model because there is a
certain amount that you can do.
And I'm also seeing some, architecture andengineering firms like our consultant partners
(21:02):
are starting to look at it.
Not as much though.
They're a little, they're a little more behindon that, but you can see the ones who use it
often if they're like in The U.
S.
They use it a lot on healthcare projects.
So if you're an architect and you're inhealthcare, especially on the West Coast where
they use a lot of, I think in The States theyusually call it IFOA, Integrated Form of
(21:22):
Agreement, or straight up IPD, you find thoseconsultants have used these contracts enough
and have had to do lean practices enough thatthey're now starting to integrate it into their
everyday practices in their firm.
It's such a benefit.
So the reality is you don't have to have it toget these jobs, but you will learn it quickly
while you're in it.
Yes.
(21:43):
Sometimes the best teacher is the fire underyour ass.
It is.
Absolutely.
Right?
The mother of invention, right?
Exactly.
So what about lean?
Let's just talk about lean just as ingenerality.
Where, like, where have you seen a company takeon lean practices and where have you seen the
benefits, across the board?
(22:03):
Well, let's start with like where it is in IPDprojects.
So in IPD projects, you're contractually askedto be lean to use target value design.
And so what is that?
So first of all, you want everybody in the roomworking together because we all know there's a
benefit to not being siloed in our work.
(22:24):
You know, do your work, throw it over the wall,and wait for a response.
My favorite thing.
No.
Thank So if you have the right people in theroom at the right time, you have the ability to
have conversations that are just different.
But you noticed earlier I talked about, wedon't call subcontractors subcontractors.
We don't Trade partners.
Call them trade partners.
We also call them, consultant partners orsomething to that effect.
(22:48):
So what it really is, lean, and I'm part of theLCI Lean Construction Institute Lean is really
about respect for people.
And our industry is not well known for beingrespectful to one another for lots of reasons.
And if you've ever worked in the constructionindustry, you've had somebody say, well, that's
not how it was when I came through it.
(23:09):
There's a certain amount of, I was abused,therefore I'm gonna abuse you sort of mentality
that sometimes comes to the front.
And I mean, it's not just in construction.
It's also in engineering and architecturefirms.
Like, I didn't get any sleep when I was anintern.
Why should you?
So it really starts with respect for people andthat ideas can come from anywhere.
(23:32):
So I have been on projects where some of ourbest ideas about the design came from an
electrical trade partner who said, hey, what ifwe did this?
And we're all like, that is a great idea.
Let's try that.
So if you start with respect for people,meaning everybody's here, they're doing their
best, and they're coming from where they are.
(23:53):
Sometimes people have a bad day.
Sometimes people have a lot of work on theirplate, but they're always trying their best,
right?
We're all coming to the table with goodintentions.
So if you start with respect for people and youlook in the room and you try to have a certain
amount of understanding that everybody's comingto the table to try, that's a good place to
(24:15):
start.
And then around that, have the other tenets oflean or the other ideas, which are to eliminate
waste and to maximize value.
You're looking for flow, right?
Flow over productivity.
Have you heard of scheduling?
Scheduling.
You know you're talking about I'm going to behere on this date to do these things or this is
(24:37):
the flow or this is a process of theactivities.
But people don't talk often about the flow ofit, meaning are there stops and start, or does
it continue to flow through the process?
There's a natural tendency to talk aboutscheduling, but not a natural tendency to work
work on flow, which is a different thing.
Interesting.
(24:57):
It is an interesting thing.
And of course, I'm all nervous on the podcastand I can't remember the other two principles
off the top of my head.
Ah, it's fine.
Let's dive into flow.
So scheduling, I think anybody listeningunderstands scheduling, assuming you're in the
AEC space, but what's the difference with flow?
Like what's the breakdown?
How deep does that get?
What does that look like?
(25:18):
Well, flow, is really about people talk aboutproductivity.
They talk about scheduling and there's a toolthat was, that is out there called pull
planning.
Have you heard of pull planning at this point?
No.
Please enlighten me.
You haven't?
Well, people do what we call push planning.
(25:38):
Mhmm.
And it is a great example would be a contractorgets a project and they have been asked while
they're bidding the project to develop aschedule.
And so they've developed a schedule and maybethey've given a certain amount of detail
depending on how detailed their schedule is.
It might say, hey, you know what?
The steel's going to arrive in December.
(25:59):
We're going to be erecting the skill for twomonths and it's going to be topped out at this
date.
And so they get their schedule together andthen they have their whole team together and
then they hand them the schedule.
And they're like, here you go.
And they're like, you're gonna be here inDecember and you're gonna be leaving at the
January and it's all gonna work out just fine.
But there's no discussion about, well, what isthe condition of the site that needs to be in
(26:23):
place for you to start the erection of steelon-site?
Like, and how long is it really gonna take youfor this much?
There's an assumption that the contractor hasprobably made like, oh, I've done this kind of
a building before, this many million, this manysquare feet, so it'll probably be about eight
weeks.
You know, if that's that's what they're lookingat.
So there's a lot of assumptions made in a pushschedule and a schedule that's been handed to
(26:46):
you.
But the most important thing is that there's nodiscussions.
There's no collaboration.
There's no back and forth.
And in pull planning, really what it is, is youstart from the end.
So you start with the end in mind.
What's the last thing you do?
And then that person says, in order for me tofinish this task, I need to have this.
So they're pulling or placing a request to theperson before them for a condition of their
(27:10):
work or a condition of satisfaction in someways that the work be like this in order for me
to do my piece.
So another example might be, I call it twosiding.
So the second side of drywall sometimes you putup the studs, put up one side of drywall,
you've got all your rough ins, but you can'ttwo sided until certain things are done.
Which is the rough ins are in and they've beeninspected and I know they're inspected and now
(27:34):
I can do the two side, right?
So, you know, if you're putting a sticky on thepull plan that says I'm going to finish two
siding on this date, but what I need from youis confirmation that the rough ins have been
inspected.
And so, you're making sure that the contractorknows that the inspection needs to be done by
that date in order for you to do your thing.
So it's called pull planning because there's adiscussion of what is happening previously.
(27:59):
You're pulling that information and on top ofthat, that discussion allows people to really
understand what you need.
Like have you ever been on a construction sitewhere somebody's like, well no I need backing
before I can put this in.
There's supposed to be backing here.
Why isn't there any backing?
Did nobody look at the drawings?
So the confusion question about what thecondition needs to be before you can do your
(28:22):
work is cleared up in a conversation and pullplanning.
So when you pull plan, you're starting from theend, you're working to the beginning, you do it
in chunks, you don't do it all at once, youmight do it a phase at a time, and you're
pulling that those pieces of information tomake sure that all those conditions are met
along the way.
And it's a very different way of working and itcreates better flow.
There's all sorts of intricacies in pullplanning about how many people are on-site,
(28:46):
like what are your resources, how many daysdoes it take, And ideally once you finish, for
example, just a phase pull plan or that phasecould be a small piece of the construction like
Area A, so you're finishing Area A in thistime, you'll be able to do what they call
weekly work plans and PPC as if we don't haveenough acronyms in our industry.
(29:07):
So
Acronyms, that's what makes the world go round.
Especially in our industry.
Right?
Pool planning has sort of five levels.
The first level or the highest level ismilestones.
What are the big chunks?
You know, we're gonna finish the design, go infor permits, start construction, top out all
the things, right?
Or finishing your site work.
There's there's various milestones.
(29:28):
Then you work on the phases and you you pullplan those individual phases.
And in construction, the phases might be brokendown, as I mentioned, into areas of the
building.
And then from there, you'd be able to pull outa six week look ahead.
So you'll be able to see, hey, in our pullplan, which is a bunch of stickies on the wall,
here's the work that's being done for the nextsix weeks.
And you look for any big ticket items, longlead items, whatever it might be.
(29:53):
Oh, I've got to get on somebody's butt aboutgetting the inspection ready for this date,
whatever it might be.
But then you get down to the weekly work plans,WWP for short.
And the weekly work plans you do in a stand uphuddle and you'll be like, hey, this is the
work that's going be done for the next week.
Do you have enough resources?
What are the constraints?
Meaning, what is preventing you from gettingthe work done this week?
(30:15):
You know, I'm waiting for these lights to bedelivered, or we don't have that inspection
complete, or if it rains this week, I'mscrewed.
You know, whatever it might be.
So what are the constraints to your work onwaiting for an RFI to come back?
It could be a number of things.
So you have a constraint log, you have the workyou're doing, and so it's a team's job to try
and clear up that constraint log to make surethat the work can get done.
(30:37):
And the weekly work plan is granular enoughthat you can be on-site, see what's on the
weekly work plan, and look out the window andknow that you're on schedule instead of
wondering if you're on schedule.
Sure.
Because if your weekly work plans are being metand completed, you're on schedule because the
next one flows into the next one.
(30:57):
But if you have the old school push plan, whichis in somebody's computer because it's never
printed out and you can never find it when youneed it, you can show up on-site and think
everything is going along smoothly because youdon't know what's not happening.
But in a poll plan, you know exactly where youare, you can see it, and you can track it.
At the end of the week, they do the PPC becauseyou need more acronyms, and that's plan percent
(31:19):
complete.
And so at the end of the week, they're like,hey, We had these 25 activities.
Oh my gosh.
I don't wanna do that kind of math.
We had these 10 activities.
Yeah.
We got six of them done.
60%.
Sixty %.
Is that a good PPC?
No.
No.
It's not bad, but it's not great.
(31:39):
What if they said we got 10 out of 10 done?
We got a %.
Is that a good PPC?
Probably not.
Because then we're probably playing doubledecker here because that probably means that
we've undershot what we could achieve is myguess.
Maybe you could have got ahead of the schedule.
Maybe you you were sandbagging.
Right?
Yeah.
That's like an actual thing.
Were you sandbagging the schedule?
(32:00):
We should have got more done then.
Yeah.
So if you can get ahead of the schedule,sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not
because the steel can't get ready any faster orwhatever it might But yeah, you might have been
sandbagging.
So a good PPC is somewhere around 805%.
Yep.
Sometimes 75% somewhere in there.
So you track your PPC, you track your variancestoo, like, oh, I actually didn't get this done
(32:22):
because it really did rain this week.
And it gives you a really good understanding ofwhat's working well in the project, what's not
working well, and it creates flow.
Because one thing flows into the next thingflows into the next thing.
And there's not people waiting around, thingsnot happening.
The worst thing for any contractor is to have aday on-site where nothing's happening because
we're all waiting on x y z.
(32:44):
You don't even know what it is, but thenthere's nothing worse than showing up to a site
and there's nothing happening.
Yep.
So that's a little bit about flow and poleplanning, which is a big part of IPD projects,
but not just in construction.
We do the same in design.
I feel like that concept, I try to run my life,business and life this way of like saying like,
(33:05):
all right, here's the quarter.
I want to get to these three goals or thesethree things.
And then I, okay, if I want to get there, whatdo I need to do backwards?
You know, what needs to be achieved in the lastmonth?
What needs to be achieved in the second month?
And then what needs to be achieved in the firstmonth?
And then break that down into weeks and sayinglike, well, if I want to if I want to release a
(33:25):
six articles this quarter, then I need to makesure that I'm putting one out every other week
ish.
And like, am I on track for that?
Have I done a brainstorm, which would berequired to then write something the week
prior?
Exactly.
So for me, makes perfect sense upon how Ithink, like how my brain thinks in business but
(33:46):
as well as in life.
The normal or the traditional way is theopposite of like saying, we're going to start
from, hey, we're here and we're gonna build abuilding.
In comparison to saying, well, if you wanted tobuild a building that had, whatever or to give
the keys to the owner of this new building,what would have to happen right before that,
right before that, right before that.
(34:07):
So that's really cool.
Exactly.
And one of the things about that that's reallyinteresting is that these deadlines,
especially, you know, bigger projects.
To me, I I did schools for a lot of years too.
So to me, a big project is between 50 and ahundred million.
To some people, a big project is a billion.
Depends what big is to you.
Depends on scale.
Interesting.
Yes.
(34:28):
So for me though, you think about some of thesebigger projects, it's like, okay, we're gonna
be moving in in 2028.
And when you're in design, the owner and thearchitect and the consultant team, twenty
twenty eight seems like a long ways away.
Right?
Mhmm.
But to the contractor on a Centimeters jobwho's in the room there to talk about
constructability, they're like, hello, it's notthat far, right?
(34:51):
And they're talking about it, but sometimessometimes it takes it to be visual for the team
to see that schedule and understand the impactsof what they're doing visually to be able to
hold themselves accountable to a schedule.
Because that's the other piece, is that notonly is pool planning important in terms of the
conversations that you're having, but it'simportant that it be visual.
(35:11):
It should be in your face all the time.
And it creates accountability because who theheck wants to sit down in front of the owner,
the contractor, and the architect, and you'relike, oh, I had these 10 tasks to do this week,
but only did three.
What kind of accountability is that?
And I find in our industry, it's actually, it'skind of the biggest thing that I think we have
(35:31):
a challenge on in our industry is that we aretaking on so much work and our resources are
heavily loaded for lots of reasons.
That accountability is one of the things thatslips, I think, the most.
I think that people can work harder onrespecting one another and even collaborating,
but it's that piece of accountability and thatlevel of accountability that really just takes
(35:53):
you that much farther.
And so in poll planning with weekly work plansand PPC, your accountability is held because
it's right there.
It's visual.
It's explicit and it's understood.
If you consistently don't have enough resourcesto get the job done, instead of saying, you
suck because you're not getting this done, in arespect for people sort of environment, you're
(36:14):
like, what can we do to help you out here?
Like, do you need more time?
Should we hire another team to assist withcertain aspects?
Is there something that we can do as a team tosupport you in getting this done because we're
all in it together?
That's the IPD way of looking at how to improveand assist with accountability.
Isn't that cool?
That's super cool.
(36:35):
And I think that's, that kind of speaks tocertainly how I see in leaders that I talk to,
how they see leadership.
If it's a CEO or CFO or CRO, whoever it is, alot of people have the misconception that that
means you're the head of that thing, whichsure, you are technically the head of that
thing, but your job, like your sole job is justto get other people to be in the best position
(36:57):
for them to win and achieve success forwhatever you're asking them to do.
Like, that is it.
Like, how do I make your life and job easier soyou can achieve what I'm asking you to do big
picture?
And it's not me getting into the like, oh, Ineed to go sell this thing or, oh, I need to
get my hands dirty and do that.
It's like, no, no, as leaders, it's like, howdo I just make your life easier?
(37:18):
Like, how can I do that?
Because then you're going to be able to do waymore and be, and be way more productive and
have the efficiencies that are there.
It's my job as a leader to identify those andthen root out those inefficiencies to then make
life better for you.
And I think that that's missed so often.
And it sounds like IPD is is that.
Yeah.
(37:38):
IPD really allows that.
And that's one of the things that I think isalso a benefit if you're using any sort of lean
principles, either in your constructioncompany, your consulting firm, whatever it is.
Because, in the same example, like the CFO,they're not pushing a schedule, they're pulling
a schedule.
And sometimes there are people that don't havethe skills and don't understand how to break
(38:02):
down a big job into little pieces.
So if you're asking, how can I help you to getthis done?
Like this seems like a really big task.
We've got to get this big report out orwhatever it is.
How can we break it down and work it into bitesized pieces?
How can we help you to plan that work?
Another piece of pull planning that sort ofdives into software architecture, and a lot of
(38:22):
software companies use it is Scrum.
Have you heard of Scrum?
Okay.
So pull planning and scrum go hand in handbecause you think about if you've got all this
work planned out, you've got a six week lookahead.
There's your backlog.
Right?
And if you've got a backlog, then here's yourbacklog of work.
And then you decide what am I sprinting on thisweek based on my backlog and making sure that,
(38:43):
you know, you can feed off of it instead ofjust doing 10 tasks.
Maybe I can do 12, and you can try not tosandbag that work for the week and pull
something out of your backlog so you can do alittle more.
So that scrum planning really helps you, andyou can use that in consult consulting world
and in construction.
You can use it anywhere.
And it applies it doesn't matter what contractyou're using or what project you're doing.
(39:06):
You can use pull planning and scrum in all ofit.
Got it.
Where, where do you think the missing link isfor trade partners when it comes to, you know,
because, because historically, especially witha low bid contract, they find that the
specialty trades or a trade partner findsthemselves at the mercy.
(39:27):
There's a lot of the feeling, you know, tothese things.
How do you how how do they break through tofind themselves in more of these types of
contracts?
Like, you know, in comparison to the I'm stuck,you know, maybe they see a different reality as
you see and I see that we can be doingconstruction a lot different, but I don't
necessarily have the power because I'm not oneof your top three partners in this thing.
(39:52):
Even though it could become that, but that thattri partnership of the owner, GC, and and
design team kinda hold a lot more of the powerin that scenario.
So couple of things.
There was a lot in that question.
Couple of things.
So you don't have to be in an IPD contract todo lean.
Sure.
(40:12):
And so in America I'm Canadian, so I alwayscall it America.
In America, IPD and IFOA is mostly being doneright now in health care projects and data
centers, in pharmaceutical manufacturing, thosetypes of projects.
So if you are a trade partner, contractor,consultant and you're doing what I did, which
(40:35):
was schools, you're not seeing in The US a lotof IPD projects.
In Canada, IPD is being done on a lot ofpublicly funded projects.
Schools, municipalities, federal work,Department of Defense work, like all of it.
So so if you are a trade partner, a contractor,a consultant, and you're interested in doing
(40:56):
your work better regardless of the contractbecause maybe you're not working in these
particular niche areas and you want to workbetter or do things in a lean way, you have to
quit firefighting.
You have to learn how to plan your work.
My favorite book right now is How Big ThingsGet Done, and it is about projects don't end
(41:18):
badly, they start badly.
And most I say most, it sounds like an overexaggerated it sounds like I'm exaggerating,
but I find that most people in their jobs, intheir in in the industry are firefighting.
They're not they're planning certain aspects oftheir work like, oh, we know that these
projects are coming out this year, so we'regonna go after them.
(41:40):
We're gonna do proposals for these.
Okay, great.
But once you get the job, are you planning yourwork?
I know people in our industry there was aperson I used to work with and I was like, hey,
you know, how do you plan your work for theweek?
He's like, what do you mean?
I'm like, well, how do you know what you've gotto get done?
He's like, well, I've got all these schedules.
There's that word again.
(42:00):
And I'm like, yeah, but how do you plan yourwork for the week?
He's like, well, when I get into the office, Iopen my email and I see what's going on.
And I'm like, what?
Wait a minute.
What do you mean you open your email?
He's like, well, pull out my email and I seewhat's going on.
Like, what are the RFIs?
Do I have any change orders?
Are there any contracting questions out there?
Does the owner need to some information?
(42:21):
I'm like, okay.
So you see what's urgent.
Right?
And like, you do that every day?
Yep.
And how long does that take you?
Well, sometimes it takes all day to get throughthat email.
Sometimes it only takes a few hours.
Sometimes it's a few minutes.
I'm like, okay.
So when do you plan your work that has to bedone that week in order to advance the project
to meet the schedule?
(42:41):
Well, when I have time.
Do you see where I'm going with it?
Oh, yeah.
I I see it totally.
Yeah.
I think people don't structure life, not notjust business, but, like, they don't structure
they don't put enough structure in because theyalways I think there's, like, this feeling
that, like, a structure takes your freedom awayor structure makes things too rigorous.
And it's like, no.
No.
No.
Like, structure creates freedom.
(43:01):
Structure makes things easier.
Structure makes efficiencies happen and makesure that you're not sitting out an email or
emails for an entire day instead of, like,getting your punch list done for whatever it is
that needs to occur that week.
So that's that's where I see it.
I see a a lack of structure for many, many,many people.
(43:22):
So what's your take on people essentially nothaving structure, in life, but as as well as
business?
Work structuring is just so huge in what we dobecause if you leave the important task to when
I have time or for people like me who maybehave ADD and try to procrastinate a lot, you're
never really gonna get it done.
Right?
(43:42):
So if you can't structure your work, you can'tbe successful.
And work structuring and pull planning, and Ilook at so much of the lean activities and
things that you do, and they're really aboutplanning.
One of my favorite analogies is like, don'tjust paint a wall.
Right?
You don't just show up with a bucket of paintand start rolling it on.
You've got to, like, take all the cover platesoff.
You've got to, you know, clean all theimperfections.
(44:04):
You got to fill the holes.
You got to tape it off.
It's like plan, plan, plan, plan some more,then paint the wall.
Right?
And you're gonna have better success.
You can paint the wall without doing all thatother planning, but it's gonna suck.
So work structuring is really a big part ofwhat makes people leaner and planning that work
longer term.
The other thing about that I find interestingabout consultants is in work planning, do you
(44:28):
have a consistent plan for how you do the work,whether you're a consultant or a contractor?
So, you survey five different people in a firmor a construction team, whether they're the
partner, the superintendent, an internarchitect, from one end to the other, do they
have the same description of the process ornot?
Because if they don't, then there's not enoughclarity in the process.
(44:51):
Because like you said, if you have good workstructuring and good clarity, it frees you.
It is freeing.
Because you're not spinning your wheelswondering what to do next.
You're not missing information.
You're not having to go back and go, oh, Iforgot to do this thing because it's clear.
So you're more free with work structuring thanyou are without it.
(45:13):
And it just makes sense when you think about itthat way.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
I I find that a lot of people say we haveprocess.
We have we have processes.
But then when you dig into it, it's like, well,you might have processes, but if I ask five
random people, they all think it's somethingdifferent.
So then therefore your process is brokenbecause you don't have everybody following the
(45:33):
same process.
Like it just, it, it, it, it in fact makes itlike you don't have a process, even if you do
have a documented written down thing, itdoesn't matter because it's not actually being
lived.
And that's the real core component of, ofprocess that needs to happen.
People actually need to follow the process.
It's kind of like that joke from Seinfeld withthe reservation of the car.
(45:56):
It's like, I have a reservation of cars.
He's like, we don't have any more cars.
He's like, but I have a reservation.
It's like, I I see that.
He's like, yeah.
But you didn't you I don't think you know whata reservation is.
That's the whole point of the reservation is tohold the car.
And if you've not held the car, what's thepoint of a reservation?
So the same thing with process.
If I have a process but nobody follows it,what's the point of having a process?
(46:18):
Exactly.
Or have you communicated the process?
Somebody doesn't know what it is.
Right?
Yep.
Not everybody you might have a process that oneor two people are following, but if the whole
firm's not following it, it's no good.
Correct.
%.
I find I talk about this a lot.
The three S's of success are structure arestrength, structure, and strategy.
And if you don't have one of those, you'rejust, again, you can be successful, but it
(46:41):
makes it so much harder and so much moredifficult.
And you're never going to achieve the level ofsuccess that you could is if you had all three
of those parts and structure is so crucial tothat.
So, yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Totally true.
So this has been a ton of fun.
I've had lots and lots of fun as I normally dowith you.
(47:02):
But before we say goodbyes, what what would youlike to tell the people before we say goodbye?
Oh, what would I like to tell the people beforeI leave?
One is it doesn't matter what kind of work youcan do you are doing, whether you're doing
whether you're a contractor or a consultant orwhatever doing any different contract model,
(47:24):
you can do lean.
And lean is so versatile.
A lot of people use it in their home.
Trying to get the kids out the door to get toschool.
I know people that have used the lean processto pull plan that morning to make sure that
they have the most successful day ever.
And it works.
Lean works for everyone, anywhere if you canapply it.
(47:45):
And what are your three s's?
Strength, structure, and strategy.
I'm pretty sure that that works with in thesame way with lean hand in hand.
So what I would say is if you're interested atall in lean, start to look up LCI Lean
Construction Institute.
There's a great blog out there, the LeanConstruction Blog.
That'll help you in the construction industry.
And if you're just trying to use it in yourdaily life, there's this other guy who is
(48:08):
amazing and very unusual, Paul Akers and thetwo second lean.
Look him up.
It's very interesting.
It'll focus anywhere, and it will change yourlife.
Okay.
And if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
Go to my website, weftstrategies.com, andthat's weft,weft.
Like weaving.
(48:29):
So weftstrategies.com.
They can email me there or they can email me ifyou put a link on this, they can email me
directly.
That's easy.
Yeah.
For sure.
I will drop it in the show notes for you.
No problem there.
And I don't know what this is more justcompletely random of a question.
Okay.
Which is, you know, a little bit sometimes yougotta that's that's what we gotta take things.
(48:51):
I like it.
So you mentioned productivity hacks.
What is your most recent productivity hack thatyou found that could maybe help somebody?
My favorite, productivity hack is Trello.
I use a Trello board.
Some people use like Monday as another exampleand I think, it starts with an
a Asana.
Asana.
Yes.
(49:11):
That's the other one.
And I make myself essentially a Kanban board,which is I have a backlog.
I have a to do, doing, and done.
And, some people can use it in a more in ascrum way of a sprint and how you're getting
the workflow through.
But I try to like, when I'm on phone calls ortalking to people, there's all sorts of to dos
that sort of cascade out of out of my work.
And usually I have like 8,000,000 sticky noteson my desk of all these things, or I write them
(49:35):
into a list.
But now I put them into my Trello board.
They become part of my backlog, and they worktheir way from left to right.
And my to do and doing column, you know, that'swhere I'm spending most of my time.
And then I even have repeat things likeinvoicing.
So, I put it in my to do column the week I needto do it, and then it goes back into my backlog
until next time.
So create a Trello board or an Asana or aMonday board to track your activities and
(49:59):
actually structure your work.
It helps.
I love it.
I couldn't agree more.
I use Asana.
I also use a journal.
Yeah.
No.
Love both of those options.
Well, this has been a ton of fun.
I'm gonna put all like I said, I'm gonna putall your connection stuff in the show notes
there for our listeners.
And until next time, adios.
(50:20):
Thank you, Justin.
Have a great day.
Bye for now.
So that's it.
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There you go.
There we go.
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(50:43):
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(51:06):
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
We had two schools under one contract.
(00:02):
It was about 50,000,000.
And in the end, our group, our contract, wesaved $2,000,000 on top of our profit pool.
So we split $50.50 with the owner.
The team got an extra million dollars to usefor other things, and the owner got a million
dollars to use for other things.
(00:22):
It's pretty amazing.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of buildingscale, specifically the building connection
series where I get to talk to awesome peoplethat I meet in my day to day life to talk about
business, talk about connections, talk aboutall kinds of ideas that kind of put the
spectrum across the board, and my guest todayis no exception to that.
(00:45):
So much so when we had lunch a couple weeksago, she'd said, hey.
We should just record these, conversationsbecause they're always so good.
Even if we didn't release them, as a podcast,we should just record them because they're full
chock full of stuff, and I couldn't agree more.
So, today's guest is Darlene Cadman.
She is got 25 of experience in the constructionspace, an architect by trade, but is currently
(01:11):
a consultant for lean construction activities.
She began her career focused on k 12 schools.
So when you think of elementary, high school,all that fun stuff, she was doing that,
managing large multi disciplinary things acrosskinda a whole bunch of different complex
projects.
She led a firm in 2014, group '2 architecturethrough Alberta's first integrated project
(01:35):
delivery, IPD, which is a big part of theconversation today, which is why I mentioned
it.
She currently is the founder of WEF StrategiesLP, and specializes in the concept of
implementing IPD in a contract as well as leanconcepts in a in a construction business.
So this is a lot of fun for me is is the simpleway to to put it.
(01:55):
So I hope you have as good of a time as I did.
And with that said, here's the conversation weinteract.
It is it's like we're kindred, souls somehow,you know.
I think we are.
And it's it just I don't know.
I have a ton of fun.
(02:15):
I'm always smiling after all our interactions.
And I always learn a construction space,architecture, how things are done, just in
general, what you've seen.
And I'm hoping that the listeners of the showcan get the value that I get.
It won't feel the same, but they're going toget the value that I get when we interact.
Well, get a lot of value out of you too,Justin, because whenever I talk to you, you're
(02:38):
the only other person I know who has moreproductivity ideas than I do about how to get
your work done.
So I super appreciate all the time that wespend together.
Cause you're like, hey, what about that thing?
Let's come back to that.
You also keep me on track, which I enjoy.
Well, anytime I can be helpful.
I actually have a new, journal for productivityright in front of me.
So yeah, look at that.
Look at that.
And I have this from talking to you last time,which is productivity timer.
(03:00):
Reminder, use the productivity timer.
Oh yeah.
That's awesome.
So one thing that I had, I had this feeling orvision, before we met that like the
construction space can just be better.
Like it can, it can operate more efficiently.
It can, have more collaborative contributionfurther on the front end, more, more of that
(03:21):
than the somewhat of a hierarchy that you seefrom developer to GC to sub, to sub sub, like
all the way down.
And then I met you and then you startedexplaining what, IPD was.
And I was like, wait, what?
There's a thing that exists already that's likein my brain that I have no idea about?
So I'd love for you to talk a little bit aboutthat and and and what you've seen work as well
(03:44):
as maybe how you see it work here in The Statesas well.
Well, for sure.
Thanks.
So, know, I've been in this industry now fortwenty five years and when I started, I started
as an architect, well, an intern which takesone hundred years to become an architect.
We did a lot of design bid build, which is hardbid as a lot of people know.
(04:07):
Not too much design build and I almost neversaw construction management.
And so for years and years, I did a lot of workfor and I was in Canada, a lot of school
projects that were design bid build.
And so I really got to understand how thatparticular system works, which as we all know,
it's the race to the lowest bid and the lowestbid And, you know, I've seen all sorts of
(04:32):
things happen, you know, the contractors thatput in their bid and they forgot to add in the
steel decking into their total.
So they're out by a million dollars on a schoolproject.
Or, you know, this contractor, it's actuallythey went out of business so they're not gonna
be there.
Now we've seen it all.
And then being on-site and and all the, youknow, this happening.
(04:53):
Yeah.
A lot of lot of going back and forth and tryingto hold hold the line on various things and
just not being more combative thancollaborative.
Right?
And it's it's the way that that world isbecause of the race to the bottom and it's not
set up to be it's just not set up to be supersuccessful and to have good camaraderie and to
(05:14):
develop relationships, not good ones anyways.
So, know, I was meandering along my careerpath.
It is meandering.
And about fifteen years in, my former boss,Craig Weber from Group two Architecture, he's
like, hey, we've got this project coming up andwe're gonna do it IPD.
And I'm like, what?
What is IPD?
He's like, integrated project delivery.
(05:36):
And he explained integrated project delivery iswhere the owner, the architect, and the
contractor are in the same contract together ata minimum, so they call that a tri party.
And oftentimes it's a poly party or a multiparty agreement that includes the rest of the
design team like your engineers, otherarchitects, if you have landscape architect,
interior designer, and it can also include alsothe contracting parties or the, as they're
(06:00):
typically called subcontractors, we like tocall them trade partners.
Yes.
They are involved as well.
And what you're looking for in an IPD contractis about 75 to 85% of the value of the project,
people who contribute to the value likemechanical systems, structural systems being in
the contract to work collaboratively together.
(06:22):
So these guys all sign the contract together,they work together, and they're contracted to
do lean practices, which is an interestingthing because not very many contracts have lean
practices in them.
Although the DBIA does have some contracts thattalk about lean practices.
And then they're also sharing risk reward.
We hear lots about contracts that have penaltyclauses like if you're not done by this date,
(06:47):
we're taking money away or we're fining you orwhatever it is.
But this is a risk reward contract.
So in these contracts, everybody's profit is atrisk.
So everybody jumps in the pool, they're gettingpaid for their hours, but what they're being
paid for is time and overhead only no profit.
And your profit is in a risk pool and that riskpool is your carrot, right?
(07:12):
It's the thing that you're trying to achieve.
If your project budget is $100,000,000 and yougo to $101,000,000 that extra $1,000,000 comes
out of your profit pool.
And so you are incentivized not only to keepthe project on budget, but through lean
practices, drive the costs down so that you canincrease your profit pool because that stack of
(07:35):
money, which is your direct costs andeverything plus your profit, the line of how
much the profit is moves based on where yourcosts are in construction.
So it is fantastic way of working together andeverybody's incentivized because who doesn't
want to make a profit?
I mean, theoretically architects really do wantto make a profit.
(07:58):
So, it's a really different way of workingtogether.
And at the time when my, boss said to me, hey,you're gonna do this project and it's IPD, I
was like, no, I'm not.
No, no.
I don't know what I'm doing.
You know, you get in a after being in theindustry for fifteen years at that point, I was
comfortable with what I was doing and nobodygrows from a place of comfort.
(08:19):
We all know that.
So there was some rapid growth that had tooccur and painful growth that had to occur.
But in the end, that first project which wastwo schools and these schools were delivered
for Red Deer Catholic School District.
They are government funded and they had aspecific dollar value, but they also had a very
(08:39):
specific area allocation.
In Canada it's meters squared not feet squared.
So it's meters squared that we had to build fora certain dollar value.
Now although you can build it for less, youcannot change the meterage.
So the scope, the actual scope of the physicalconstruction of the amount of space, that's not
(08:59):
on the table.
So you have to work together to figure out howto get this project at or below market cost
through innovative practices, lean design, leandelivery.
It was an interesting challenge.
But we had two schools under one contract.
It was about 50,000,000.
And in the end, our group, our contract, wesaved $2,000,000 on top of
(09:23):
our
profit pool.
So we split $50.50 with the owner.
The team got an extra million dollars to usefor other things, and the owner got a million
dollars to use for other things.
It's pretty amazing.
That's super awesome.
We talk about collaboration, like that's that'sreal collaboration.
Like, the industry is collaborative.
It has to be.
(09:44):
It doesn't work.
Like, you can't build something, and notcollaborate.
Architect, GC, trade partners.
Like, it has to happen.
Right?
Yep.
But this, you know, puts money where your mouthis, essentially, saying like, no.
No.
No.
We're gonna be really, really, really good atcollaboration because it's it's imperative for
us to make a profit.
Exactly.
(10:04):
And also the type of contract that you havewhere everybody's in the pool together, so to
speak, and they are clauses in the contract.
We use the Hanson Bridge a lot.
There's another one in Canada under theCanadian Construction Association called the
CCDC thirty.
Mhmm.
It's okay as a contract as well.
A lot of the contractors in the East Of Canadause it.
In the West, as usual, there's an East Westdivide.
(10:27):
But in the West, they mostly use, the HansenBrigitte contract.
And Hansen Brigitte is a law firm out ofCalifornia actually, who started doing the
contracts there on I call it one of the OGprojects which is Temecula Valley was a
healthcare project in California.
And so they've been doing their contracts for awhile and in those contracts though not only do
(10:51):
you have the risk reward and you're all inthere together.
More interestingly as well is that youindemnify each other.
You're choosing not to go after each other.
You're choosing to work together, which isamazing.
Indemnify meaning what?
Like, what what does that mean?
The collaboration part makes sense, but what isthis other piece?
Well, the indemnification part is importantbecause it means that you're choosing not to
(11:13):
sue each other.
So you're entering into this contract with anagreement.
Generally good idea when you're trying topartner up with people.
Which is I know it sounds hilarious.
Like, it sounds so strange.
Like, I'm choosing not to sue you, but thinkabout how much how much our society is
litigious, especially in construction.construction.
I mean, there are very few I mean, are very fewin this industry that haven't experienced some
(11:36):
sort of litigious or litigation of some sort oranother.
So, to enter into a contract where you'reagreeing not to sue the other parties is kind
of a big deal.
I don't, I don't how many people have chosen togo into a contract like that, but it is, it's
an interesting choice.
So not only are you in risk reward, you'rechoosing not to, sue each other and you have to
(11:59):
work together in order to bring this budget orthe cost of the construction into alignment
with the contract.
I mean, it's not easy to do.
There's a whole process called target valuedesign that you do within lean construction
that kind of go hand in hand with it.
And that target value design is what you haveto work with, such as the architects and the
(12:20):
designers pulling together this lovely designthat is an edifice unto themselves.
It's also the trade partners working with youto say, hey, you know, maybe if we did it this
way, we could reduce labor, we could have abetter install, some of these details might be
a little better.
So we actually work together to hear both sidesof the story as we're progressing, which I find
(12:41):
fascinating.
Alright.
So how does one find the the team of ofplayers?
Right?
So it's sounds like, to your point, there'sthere's a lot of litigation that occurs in
construction, and there certainly can.
So I have to imagine going into a contract withsomebody like this, you would want to have a
pretty good understanding of them and whatyou're gonna get out of them.
(13:02):
If it's design or if it's a specialty trade orwhatever it is, you probably wanna make sure
that this isn't just somebody I found onGoogle.
It'd be my guess.
This is true.
This is true.
So, there's actually a really long onboardinginterview proposal process.
We call it a waterfall system.
And so, the proposal process often starts withthe owner saying, okay, I'm going out for
(13:26):
architect and contractor because the tri partyis always the root of of the beginnings.
And they either choose to go with the architectfirst or the contractor often do them at the
same time.
Usually, choose one or the other, and it'swhomever you're comfortable with.
Some people have a good relationship with theirarchitects or a better relationship with their
contractors, but one or the other.
And then so the owner chooses one of those, andthen they bring on each party.
(13:50):
So if you choose your architect first, now it'sthe owner and the architect choosing the
general contractor.
And then you add them to it.
So now it's the owner, the architect, and thegeneral contractor, and they start choosing the
engineers.
And then you bring the engineers all on boardand all of that team, including the engineers,
then chooses the trade partners.
So, we do a whole proposal end of things, whichis a fairly rigorous proposal.
(14:14):
You have to explain your lean methodology.
You have to explain your understanding oftarget value design and delivery.
You have to do a RACI.
I don't know if you guys know these Yep.
The matrix of who's involved in theresponsibility matrix.
So, we do all of those things, but the mostintriguing or interesting part to me is the
(14:35):
interview process.
So, once we have shortlisted to, you know,three, four proponents, then they have to
interview.
And this is no normal interview.
This isn't show up, do a PowerPointpresentation, and tell me how amazing you are
because you know what, anybody can do that.
And in fact, unfortunately, I had one proponentfairly recently who used AI to answer all the
(14:59):
questions that we gave them and then read themto us as their response in the interview, which
was torture.
So what we do is we have sometimes we give outthe questions ahead of time.
Sometimes we don't.
We usually have about seven or eight questions.
We give them about ninety minutes, but we diveright into what we call an exercise.
(15:19):
And it usually takes about twenty minutes,sometimes a half an hour depending on how much
time we want.
And it's a collaborative game, usually.
My favorite one is called toxic waste.
We get we get these people in the room.
They're usually allowed to bring four or fivepeople depending, and we do a toxic waste
exercise.
So we put a thing up and it says here's therules of the game.
(15:40):
There is a circle over here and a circle overthere, and inside this circle is a bucket and
it has a bunch of tennis balls in it and thetennis balls represent toxic waste.
The bucket is the thing that contains the toxicwaste and the circle is the safe zone.
The only time the bucket of toxic waste cantouch the ground is when it's in the safe zone.
(16:01):
And you can't touch the bucket.
You can't get your face over the bucket becausethe toxic waste will kill you.
You can't touch the bucket in any way.
By the way, here's some tools.
And then they have a whole bunch of bungeecords, a hook, and some clothes pegs.
Here's your tools.
You have to get the bucket of toxic waste fromthis safe zone to this safe zone over here and
(16:23):
then you have to dump the tennis balls whichrepresent the toxic waste into the bucket in
the other safe zone.
And you have to do it without dying, and youhave twenty minutes.
In this twenty minutes, you have five minutesor so to plan if you like, and then you start
the exercise.
And you're not allowed to kill somebody off asa noble cause.
Like, I'll sacrifice myself to dunk them in thebucket.
(16:44):
You can't do that.
But if you stick your face over it, you're deadand now you can no longer participate in the
exercise.
Or if you touch it with your hand, now youcan't use your hand in the exercise, so you're
one handed.
Good reminder for safety training.
So okay.
Right?
So they have to figure out how they're gonnause the tools, which inevitably means that they
(17:05):
use a bungee cords to make this thing that goesover it and they have the hook and they lower
it and they hook the bucket and take it over.
Inevitably, most of them figure it out.
Sometimes they don't.
There's the odd limb that gets taken off.
Sometimes somebody puts their head over thebucket and dies, but most of the time they have
like probably an eighty five percent successrate.
(17:26):
But the really interesting thing is what we'retrying to do is get them to problem solve in a
confined amount of time so that we can see whothey really are.
Because anybody can say, I'm collaborative, Iwork well with others, all my projects are
collaborative, you know, we've workedcollaboratively for years and we have it all
(17:47):
figured out.
But you put somebody in a room where they'retrying to get, you know, a project worth
several million dollars to their firm, and yougive them twenty minutes to do an exercise with
a bunch of people, and then you count it down.
You're like, oh, you only have five minutesleft.
And they start to get nervous and they start tolike and sometimes you will see dictatorships,
(18:08):
you know, like, no, I said you're gonna dothis.
You're gonna do it this way.
Sometimes you see servant leadership where theleader in the room is like, Well, what do you
think we should do?
Well, do we want to consider this?
What do you guys think?
So, you see how people actually act underpressure, and this is how we sort of whittle it
down to who's really going to get selected.
(18:28):
Whether or not they get the toxic waste dumpedinto the other bucket is irrelevant.
It's how they get there and how they behave onthe way.
It's really interesting.
So that's awesome.
I love all of that.
That, that to me is the ultimate, interviewexperience, right?
Like how do you actually perform in a task thatone can be very dangerous, right?
(18:51):
Toxic ways, right?
Very dangerous, but also like there's not ablueprint that you're following.
So you have to be creative and you have a timeset and you have to work as team.
Right?
So, like, that's like the ultimate, interviewprocess in in my opinion.
Yeah.
I wanna do this now.
I need to start interviewing people just simplyso I can do this because this sounds like
amazing.
(19:12):
Totally.
Especially if you have people that are gonnawork in teams.
You wanna see how they actually work.
No.
Totally.
Also, you'd mentioned lean being a a corecomponent here.
So as I'm thinking through, certainly on theconstruction side, there's not a ton, it's not
the majority certainly that are using leanpractices, certainly to the extent that can be
(19:33):
revolutionary in regards to efficiency.
Is there that an issue of like, man, likethere's just a small pool of companies that can
really fit into this bucket just simply becauselean hasn't, it hasn't had its tentacles
everywhere yet, which I think overarchinglywill occur because it just makes sense.
But today you have lots of constructioncompanies that are not thinking in a lean
manner.
(19:54):
This is true.
So one of the things that we do is when IPDfirst came out, nobody had done it before,
right?
So we're all newbies.
And what that teaches us is that anybody canlearn how to do it.
That's the reality, right?
So if you have a willingness and you have adrive and you have a certain amount of
intelligence, you can figure it out.
(20:15):
It's not hard to do.
So the reality is, is if you're interviewingpeople who may not have started any lean
practices in their own work, in their own firm,in their own companies, it doesn't mean that
they can't learn it.
And if you're willing to join on a team and putyour profit at risk, you're going to learn
quickly and you're going to learn well.
So it's a willingness really that matters.
(20:37):
What I do see though in the industry isregardless of whether it's IPD or design build
or Centimeters or God forbid even DB, peopleare starting to use Lean in their practices.
Contractors are starting to use it more andmore in any contract model because there is a
certain amount that you can do.
And I'm also seeing some, architecture andengineering firms like our consultant partners
(21:02):
are starting to look at it.
Not as much though.
They're a little, they're a little more behindon that, but you can see the ones who use it
often if they're like in The U.
S.
They use it a lot on healthcare projects.
So if you're an architect and you're inhealthcare, especially on the West Coast where
they use a lot of, I think in The States theyusually call it IFOA, Integrated Form of
(21:22):
Agreement, or straight up IPD, you find thoseconsultants have used these contracts enough
and have had to do lean practices enough thatthey're now starting to integrate it into their
everyday practices in their firm.
It's such a benefit.
So the reality is you don't have to have it toget these jobs, but you will learn it quickly
while you're in it.
Yes.
(21:43):
Sometimes the best teacher is the fire underyour ass.
It is.
Absolutely.
Right?
The mother of invention, right?
Exactly.
So what about lean?
Let's just talk about lean just as ingenerality.
Where, like, where have you seen a company takeon lean practices and where have you seen the
benefits, across the board?
(22:03):
Well, let's start with like where it is in IPDprojects.
So in IPD projects, you're contractually askedto be lean to use target value design.
And so what is that?
So first of all, you want everybody in the roomworking together because we all know there's a
benefit to not being siloed in our work.
(22:24):
You know, do your work, throw it over the wall,and wait for a response.
My favorite thing.
No.
Thank So if you have the right people in theroom at the right time, you have the ability to
have conversations that are just different.
But you noticed earlier I talked about, wedon't call subcontractors subcontractors.
We don't Trade partners.
Call them trade partners.
We also call them, consultant partners orsomething to that effect.
(22:48):
So what it really is, lean, and I'm part of theLCI Lean Construction Institute Lean is really
about respect for people.
And our industry is not well known for beingrespectful to one another for lots of reasons.
And if you've ever worked in the constructionindustry, you've had somebody say, well, that's
not how it was when I came through it.
(23:09):
There's a certain amount of, I was abused,therefore I'm gonna abuse you sort of mentality
that sometimes comes to the front.
And I mean, it's not just in construction.
It's also in engineering and architecturefirms.
Like, I didn't get any sleep when I was anintern.
Why should you?
So it really starts with respect for people andthat ideas can come from anywhere.
(23:32):
So I have been on projects where some of ourbest ideas about the design came from an
electrical trade partner who said, hey, what ifwe did this?
And we're all like, that is a great idea.
Let's try that.
So if you start with respect for people,meaning everybody's here, they're doing their
best, and they're coming from where they are.
(23:53):
Sometimes people have a bad day.
Sometimes people have a lot of work on theirplate, but they're always trying their best,
right?
We're all coming to the table with goodintentions.
So if you start with respect for people and youlook in the room and you try to have a certain
amount of understanding that everybody's comingto the table to try, that's a good place to
(24:15):
start.
And then around that, have the other tenets oflean or the other ideas, which are to eliminate
waste and to maximize value.
You're looking for flow, right?
Flow over productivity.
Have you heard of scheduling?
Scheduling.
You know you're talking about I'm going to behere on this date to do these things or this is
(24:37):
the flow or this is a process of theactivities.
But people don't talk often about the flow ofit, meaning are there stops and start, or does
it continue to flow through the process?
There's a natural tendency to talk aboutscheduling, but not a natural tendency to work
work on flow, which is a different thing.
Interesting.
(24:57):
It is an interesting thing.
And of course, I'm all nervous on the podcastand I can't remember the other two principles
off the top of my head.
Ah, it's fine.
Let's dive into flow.
So scheduling, I think anybody listeningunderstands scheduling, assuming you're in the
AEC space, but what's the difference with flow?
Like what's the breakdown?
How deep does that get?
What does that look like?
(25:18):
Well, flow, is really about people talk aboutproductivity.
They talk about scheduling and there's a toolthat was, that is out there called pull
planning.
Have you heard of pull planning at this point?
No.
Please enlighten me.
You haven't?
Well, people do what we call push planning.
(25:38):
Mhmm.
And it is a great example would be a contractorgets a project and they have been asked while
they're bidding the project to develop aschedule.
And so they've developed a schedule and maybethey've given a certain amount of detail
depending on how detailed their schedule is.
It might say, hey, you know what?
The steel's going to arrive in December.
(25:59):
We're going to be erecting the skill for twomonths and it's going to be topped out at this
date.
And so they get their schedule together andthen they have their whole team together and
then they hand them the schedule.
And they're like, here you go.
And they're like, you're gonna be here inDecember and you're gonna be leaving at the
January and it's all gonna work out just fine.
But there's no discussion about, well, what isthe condition of the site that needs to be in
(26:23):
place for you to start the erection of steelon-site?
Like, and how long is it really gonna take youfor this much?
There's an assumption that the contractor hasprobably made like, oh, I've done this kind of
a building before, this many million, this manysquare feet, so it'll probably be about eight
weeks.
You know, if that's that's what they're lookingat.
So there's a lot of assumptions made in a pushschedule and a schedule that's been handed to
(26:46):
you.
But the most important thing is that there's nodiscussions.
There's no collaboration.
There's no back and forth.
And in pull planning, really what it is, is youstart from the end.
So you start with the end in mind.
What's the last thing you do?
And then that person says, in order for me tofinish this task, I need to have this.
So they're pulling or placing a request to theperson before them for a condition of their
(27:10):
work or a condition of satisfaction in someways that the work be like this in order for me
to do my piece.
So another example might be, I call it twosiding.
So the second side of drywall sometimes you putup the studs, put up one side of drywall,
you've got all your rough ins, but you can'ttwo sided until certain things are done.
Which is the rough ins are in and they've beeninspected and I know they're inspected and now
(27:34):
I can do the two side, right?
So, you know, if you're putting a sticky on thepull plan that says I'm going to finish two
siding on this date, but what I need from youis confirmation that the rough ins have been
inspected.
And so, you're making sure that the contractorknows that the inspection needs to be done by
that date in order for you to do your thing.
So it's called pull planning because there's adiscussion of what is happening previously.
(27:59):
You're pulling that information and on top ofthat, that discussion allows people to really
understand what you need.
Like have you ever been on a construction sitewhere somebody's like, well no I need backing
before I can put this in.
There's supposed to be backing here.
Why isn't there any backing?
Did nobody look at the drawings?
So the confusion question about what thecondition needs to be before you can do your
(28:22):
work is cleared up in a conversation and pullplanning.
So when you pull plan, you're starting from theend, you're working to the beginning, you do it
in chunks, you don't do it all at once, youmight do it a phase at a time, and you're
pulling that those pieces of information tomake sure that all those conditions are met
along the way.
And it's a very different way of working and itcreates better flow.
There's all sorts of intricacies in pullplanning about how many people are on-site,
(28:46):
like what are your resources, how many daysdoes it take, And ideally once you finish, for
example, just a phase pull plan or that phasecould be a small piece of the construction like
Area A, so you're finishing Area A in thistime, you'll be able to do what they call
weekly work plans and PPC as if we don't haveenough acronyms in our industry.
(29:07):
So
Acronyms, that's what makes the world go round.
Especially in our industry.
Right?
Pool planning has sort of five levels.
The first level or the highest level ismilestones.
What are the big chunks?
You know, we're gonna finish the design, go infor permits, start construction, top out all
the things, right?
Or finishing your site work.
There's there's various milestones.
(29:28):
Then you work on the phases and you you pullplan those individual phases.
And in construction, the phases might be brokendown, as I mentioned, into areas of the
building.
And then from there, you'd be able to pull outa six week look ahead.
So you'll be able to see, hey, in our pullplan, which is a bunch of stickies on the wall,
here's the work that's being done for the nextsix weeks.
And you look for any big ticket items, longlead items, whatever it might be.
(29:53):
Oh, I've got to get on somebody's butt aboutgetting the inspection ready for this date,
whatever it might be.
But then you get down to the weekly work plans,WWP for short.
And the weekly work plans you do in a stand uphuddle and you'll be like, hey, this is the
work that's going be done for the next week.
Do you have enough resources?
What are the constraints?
Meaning, what is preventing you from gettingthe work done this week?
(30:15):
You know, I'm waiting for these lights to bedelivered, or we don't have that inspection
complete, or if it rains this week, I'mscrewed.
You know, whatever it might be.
So what are the constraints to your work onwaiting for an RFI to come back?
It could be a number of things.
So you have a constraint log, you have the workyou're doing, and so it's a team's job to try
and clear up that constraint log to make surethat the work can get done.
(30:37):
And the weekly work plan is granular enoughthat you can be on-site, see what's on the
weekly work plan, and look out the window andknow that you're on schedule instead of
wondering if you're on schedule.
Sure.
Because if your weekly work plans are being metand completed, you're on schedule because the
next one flows into the next one.
(30:57):
But if you have the old school push plan, whichis in somebody's computer because it's never
printed out and you can never find it when youneed it, you can show up on-site and think
everything is going along smoothly because youdon't know what's not happening.
But in a poll plan, you know exactly where youare, you can see it, and you can track it.
At the end of the week, they do the PPC becauseyou need more acronyms, and that's plan percent
(31:19):
complete.
And so at the end of the week, they're like,hey, We had these 25 activities.
Oh my gosh.
I don't wanna do that kind of math.
We had these 10 activities.
Yeah.
We got six of them done.
60%.
Sixty %.
Is that a good PPC?
No.
No.
It's not bad, but it's not great.
(31:39):
What if they said we got 10 out of 10 done?
We got a %.
Is that a good PPC?
Probably not.
Because then we're probably playing doubledecker here because that probably means that
we've undershot what we could achieve is myguess.
Maybe you could have got ahead of the schedule.
Maybe you you were sandbagging.
Right?
Yeah.
That's like an actual thing.
Were you sandbagging the schedule?
(32:00):
We should have got more done then.
Yeah.
So if you can get ahead of the schedule,sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not
because the steel can't get ready any faster orwhatever it might But yeah, you might have been
sandbagging.
So a good PPC is somewhere around 805%.
Yep.
Sometimes 75% somewhere in there.
So you track your PPC, you track your variancestoo, like, oh, I actually didn't get this done
(32:22):
because it really did rain this week.
And it gives you a really good understanding ofwhat's working well in the project, what's not
working well, and it creates flow.
Because one thing flows into the next thingflows into the next thing.
And there's not people waiting around, thingsnot happening.
The worst thing for any contractor is to have aday on-site where nothing's happening because
we're all waiting on x y z.
(32:44):
You don't even know what it is, but thenthere's nothing worse than showing up to a site
and there's nothing happening.
Yep.
So that's a little bit about flow and poleplanning, which is a big part of IPD projects,
but not just in construction.
We do the same in design.
I feel like that concept, I try to run my life,business and life this way of like saying like,
(33:05):
all right, here's the quarter.
I want to get to these three goals or thesethree things.
And then I, okay, if I want to get there, whatdo I need to do backwards?
You know, what needs to be achieved in the lastmonth?
What needs to be achieved in the second month?
And then what needs to be achieved in the firstmonth?
And then break that down into weeks and sayinglike, well, if I want to if I want to release a
(33:25):
six articles this quarter, then I need to makesure that I'm putting one out every other week
ish.
And like, am I on track for that?
Have I done a brainstorm, which would berequired to then write something the week
prior?
Exactly.
So for me, makes perfect sense upon how Ithink, like how my brain thinks in business but
(33:46):
as well as in life.
The normal or the traditional way is theopposite of like saying, we're going to start
from, hey, we're here and we're gonna build abuilding.
In comparison to saying, well, if you wanted tobuild a building that had, whatever or to give
the keys to the owner of this new building,what would have to happen right before that,
right before that, right before that.
(34:07):
So that's really cool.
Exactly.
And one of the things about that that's reallyinteresting is that these deadlines,
especially, you know, bigger projects.
To me, I I did schools for a lot of years too.
So to me, a big project is between 50 and ahundred million.
To some people, a big project is a billion.
Depends what big is to you.
Depends on scale.
Interesting.
Yes.
(34:28):
So for me though, you think about some of thesebigger projects, it's like, okay, we're gonna
be moving in in 2028.
And when you're in design, the owner and thearchitect and the consultant team, twenty
twenty eight seems like a long ways away.
Right?
Mhmm.
But to the contractor on a Centimeters jobwho's in the room there to talk about
constructability, they're like, hello, it's notthat far, right?
(34:51):
And they're talking about it, but sometimessometimes it takes it to be visual for the team
to see that schedule and understand the impactsof what they're doing visually to be able to
hold themselves accountable to a schedule.
Because that's the other piece, is that notonly is pool planning important in terms of the
conversations that you're having, but it'simportant that it be visual.
(35:11):
It should be in your face all the time.
And it creates accountability because who theheck wants to sit down in front of the owner,
the contractor, and the architect, and you'relike, oh, I had these 10 tasks to do this week,
but only did three.
What kind of accountability is that?
And I find in our industry, it's actually, it'skind of the biggest thing that I think we have
(35:31):
a challenge on in our industry is that we aretaking on so much work and our resources are
heavily loaded for lots of reasons.
That accountability is one of the things thatslips, I think, the most.
I think that people can work harder onrespecting one another and even collaborating,
but it's that piece of accountability and thatlevel of accountability that really just takes
(35:53):
you that much farther.
And so in poll planning with weekly work plansand PPC, your accountability is held because
it's right there.
It's visual.
It's explicit and it's understood.
If you consistently don't have enough resourcesto get the job done, instead of saying, you
suck because you're not getting this done, in arespect for people sort of environment, you're
(36:14):
like, what can we do to help you out here?
Like, do you need more time?
Should we hire another team to assist withcertain aspects?
Is there something that we can do as a team tosupport you in getting this done because we're
all in it together?
That's the IPD way of looking at how to improveand assist with accountability.
Isn't that cool?
That's super cool.
(36:35):
And I think that's, that kind of speaks tocertainly how I see in leaders that I talk to,
how they see leadership.
If it's a CEO or CFO or CRO, whoever it is, alot of people have the misconception that that
means you're the head of that thing, whichsure, you are technically the head of that
thing, but your job, like your sole job is justto get other people to be in the best position
(36:57):
for them to win and achieve success forwhatever you're asking them to do.
Like, that is it.
Like, how do I make your life and job easier soyou can achieve what I'm asking you to do big
picture?
And it's not me getting into the like, oh, Ineed to go sell this thing or, oh, I need to
get my hands dirty and do that.
It's like, no, no, as leaders, it's like, howdo I just make your life easier?
(37:18):
Like, how can I do that?
Because then you're going to be able to do waymore and be, and be way more productive and
have the efficiencies that are there.
It's my job as a leader to identify those andthen root out those inefficiencies to then make
life better for you.
And I think that that's missed so often.
And it sounds like IPD is is that.
Yeah.
(37:38):
IPD really allows that.
And that's one of the things that I think isalso a benefit if you're using any sort of lean
principles, either in your constructioncompany, your consulting firm, whatever it is.
Because, in the same example, like the CFO,they're not pushing a schedule, they're pulling
a schedule.
And sometimes there are people that don't havethe skills and don't understand how to break
(38:02):
down a big job into little pieces.
So if you're asking, how can I help you to getthis done?
Like this seems like a really big task.
We've got to get this big report out orwhatever it is.
How can we break it down and work it into bitesized pieces?
How can we help you to plan that work?
Another piece of pull planning that sort ofdives into software architecture, and a lot of
(38:22):
software companies use it is Scrum.
Have you heard of Scrum?
Okay.
So pull planning and scrum go hand in handbecause you think about if you've got all this
work planned out, you've got a six week lookahead.
There's your backlog.
Right?
And if you've got a backlog, then here's yourbacklog of work.
And then you decide what am I sprinting on thisweek based on my backlog and making sure that,
(38:43):
you know, you can feed off of it instead ofjust doing 10 tasks.
Maybe I can do 12, and you can try not tosandbag that work for the week and pull
something out of your backlog so you can do alittle more.
So that scrum planning really helps you, andyou can use that in consult consulting world
and in construction.
You can use it anywhere.
And it applies it doesn't matter what contractyou're using or what project you're doing.
(39:06):
You can use pull planning and scrum in all ofit.
Got it.
Where, where do you think the missing link isfor trade partners when it comes to, you know,
because, because historically, especially witha low bid contract, they find that the
specialty trades or a trade partner findsthemselves at the mercy.
(39:27):
There's a lot of the feeling, you know, tothese things.
How do you how how do they break through tofind themselves in more of these types of
contracts?
Like, you know, in comparison to the I'm stuck,you know, maybe they see a different reality as
you see and I see that we can be doingconstruction a lot different, but I don't
necessarily have the power because I'm not oneof your top three partners in this thing.
(39:52):
Even though it could become that, but that thattri partnership of the owner, GC, and and
design team kinda hold a lot more of the powerin that scenario.
So couple of things.
There was a lot in that question.
Couple of things.
So you don't have to be in an IPD contract todo lean.
Sure.
(40:12):
And so in America I'm Canadian, so I alwayscall it America.
In America, IPD and IFOA is mostly being doneright now in health care projects and data
centers, in pharmaceutical manufacturing, thosetypes of projects.
So if you are a trade partner, contractor,consultant and you're doing what I did, which
(40:35):
was schools, you're not seeing in The US a lotof IPD projects.
In Canada, IPD is being done on a lot ofpublicly funded projects.
Schools, municipalities, federal work,Department of Defense work, like all of it.
So so if you are a trade partner, a contractor,a consultant, and you're interested in doing
(40:56):
your work better regardless of the contractbecause maybe you're not working in these
particular niche areas and you want to workbetter or do things in a lean way, you have to
quit firefighting.
You have to learn how to plan your work.
My favorite book right now is How Big ThingsGet Done, and it is about projects don't end
(41:18):
badly, they start badly.
And most I say most, it sounds like an overexaggerated it sounds like I'm exaggerating,
but I find that most people in their jobs, intheir in in the industry are firefighting.
They're not they're planning certain aspects oftheir work like, oh, we know that these
projects are coming out this year, so we'regonna go after them.
(41:40):
We're gonna do proposals for these.
Okay, great.
But once you get the job, are you planning yourwork?
I know people in our industry there was aperson I used to work with and I was like, hey,
you know, how do you plan your work for theweek?
He's like, what do you mean?
I'm like, well, how do you know what you've gotto get done?
He's like, well, I've got all these schedules.
There's that word again.
(42:00):
And I'm like, yeah, but how do you plan yourwork for the week?
He's like, well, when I get into the office, Iopen my email and I see what's going on.
And I'm like, what?
Wait a minute.
What do you mean you open your email?
He's like, well, pull out my email and I seewhat's going on.
Like, what are the RFIs?
Do I have any change orders?
Are there any contracting questions out there?
Does the owner need to some information?
(42:21):
I'm like, okay.
So you see what's urgent.
Right?
And like, you do that every day?
Yep.
And how long does that take you?
Well, sometimes it takes all day to get throughthat email.
Sometimes it only takes a few hours.
Sometimes it's a few minutes.
I'm like, okay.
So when do you plan your work that has to bedone that week in order to advance the project
to meet the schedule?
(42:41):
Well, when I have time.
Do you see where I'm going with it?
Oh, yeah.
I I see it totally.
Yeah.
I think people don't structure life, not notjust business, but, like, they don't structure
they don't put enough structure in because theyalways I think there's, like, this feeling
that, like, a structure takes your freedom awayor structure makes things too rigorous.
And it's like, no.
No.
No.
Like, structure creates freedom.
(43:01):
Structure makes things easier.
Structure makes efficiencies happen and makesure that you're not sitting out an email or
emails for an entire day instead of, like,getting your punch list done for whatever it is
that needs to occur that week.
So that's that's where I see it.
I see a a lack of structure for many, many,many people.
(43:22):
So what's your take on people essentially nothaving structure, in life, but as as well as
business?
Work structuring is just so huge in what we dobecause if you leave the important task to when
I have time or for people like me who maybehave ADD and try to procrastinate a lot, you're
never really gonna get it done.
Right?
(43:42):
So if you can't structure your work, you can'tbe successful.
And work structuring and pull planning, and Ilook at so much of the lean activities and
things that you do, and they're really aboutplanning.
One of my favorite analogies is like, don'tjust paint a wall.
Right?
You don't just show up with a bucket of paintand start rolling it on.
You've got to, like, take all the cover platesoff.
You've got to, you know, clean all theimperfections.
(44:04):
You got to fill the holes.
You got to tape it off.
It's like plan, plan, plan, plan some more,then paint the wall.
Right?
And you're gonna have better success.
You can paint the wall without doing all thatother planning, but it's gonna suck.
So work structuring is really a big part ofwhat makes people leaner and planning that work
longer term.
The other thing about that I find interestingabout consultants is in work planning, do you
(44:28):
have a consistent plan for how you do the work,whether you're a consultant or a contractor?
So, you survey five different people in a firmor a construction team, whether they're the
partner, the superintendent, an internarchitect, from one end to the other, do they
have the same description of the process ornot?
Because if they don't, then there's not enoughclarity in the process.
(44:51):
Because like you said, if you have good workstructuring and good clarity, it frees you.
It is freeing.
Because you're not spinning your wheelswondering what to do next.
You're not missing information.
You're not having to go back and go, oh, Iforgot to do this thing because it's clear.
So you're more free with work structuring thanyou are without it.
(45:13):
And it just makes sense when you think about itthat way.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
I I find that a lot of people say we haveprocess.
We have we have processes.
But then when you dig into it, it's like, well,you might have processes, but if I ask five
random people, they all think it's somethingdifferent.
So then therefore your process is brokenbecause you don't have everybody following the
(45:33):
same process.
Like it just, it, it, it, it in fact makes itlike you don't have a process, even if you do
have a documented written down thing, itdoesn't matter because it's not actually being
lived.
And that's the real core component of, ofprocess that needs to happen.
People actually need to follow the process.
It's kind of like that joke from Seinfeld withthe reservation of the car.
(45:56):
It's like, I have a reservation of cars.
He's like, we don't have any more cars.
He's like, but I have a reservation.
It's like, I I see that.
He's like, yeah.
But you didn't you I don't think you know whata reservation is.
That's the whole point of the reservation is tohold the car.
And if you've not held the car, what's thepoint of a reservation?
So the same thing with process.
If I have a process but nobody follows it,what's the point of having a process?
(46:18):
Exactly.
Or have you communicated the process?
Somebody doesn't know what it is.
Right?
Yep.
Not everybody you might have a process that oneor two people are following, but if the whole
firm's not following it, it's no good.
Correct.
%.
I find I talk about this a lot.
The three S's of success are structure arestrength, structure, and strategy.
And if you don't have one of those, you'rejust, again, you can be successful, but it
(46:41):
makes it so much harder and so much moredifficult.
And you're never going to achieve the level ofsuccess that you could is if you had all three
of those parts and structure is so crucial tothat.
So, yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Totally true.
So this has been a ton of fun.
I've had lots and lots of fun as I normally dowith you.
(47:02):
But before we say goodbyes, what what would youlike to tell the people before we say goodbye?
Oh, what would I like to tell the people beforeI leave?
One is it doesn't matter what kind of work youcan do you are doing, whether you're doing
whether you're a contractor or a consultant orwhatever doing any different contract model,
(47:24):
you can do lean.
And lean is so versatile.
A lot of people use it in their home.
Trying to get the kids out the door to get toschool.
I know people that have used the lean processto pull plan that morning to make sure that
they have the most successful day ever.
And it works.
Lean works for everyone, anywhere if you canapply it.
(47:45):
And what are your three s's?
Strength, structure, and strategy.
I'm pretty sure that that works with in thesame way with lean hand in hand.
So what I would say is if you're interested atall in lean, start to look up LCI Lean
Construction Institute.
There's a great blog out there, the LeanConstruction Blog.
That'll help you in the construction industry.
And if you're just trying to use it in yourdaily life, there's this other guy who is
(48:08):
amazing and very unusual, Paul Akers and thetwo second lean.
Look him up.
It's very interesting.
It'll focus anywhere, and it will change yourlife.
Okay.
And if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
Go to my website, weftstrategies.com, andthat's weft,weft.
Like weaving.
(48:29):
So weftstrategies.com.
They can email me there or they can email me ifyou put a link on this, they can email me
directly.
That's easy.
Yeah.
For sure.
I will drop it in the show notes for you.
No problem there.
And I don't know what this is more justcompletely random of a question.
Okay.
Which is, you know, a little bit sometimes yougotta that's that's what we gotta take things.
(48:51):
I like it.
So you mentioned productivity hacks.
What is your most recent productivity hack thatyou found that could maybe help somebody?
My favorite, productivity hack is Trello.
I use a Trello board.
Some people use like Monday as another exampleand I think, it starts with an
a Asana.
Asana.
Yes.
(49:11):
That's the other one.
And I make myself essentially a Kanban board,which is I have a backlog.
I have a to do, doing, and done.
And, some people can use it in a more in ascrum way of a sprint and how you're getting
the workflow through.
But I try to like, when I'm on phone calls ortalking to people, there's all sorts of to dos
that sort of cascade out of out of my work.
And usually I have like 8,000,000 sticky noteson my desk of all these things, or I write them
(49:35):
into a list.
But now I put them into my Trello board.
They become part of my backlog, and they worktheir way from left to right.
And my to do and doing column, you know, that'swhere I'm spending most of my time.
And then I even have repeat things likeinvoicing.
So, I put it in my to do column the week I needto do it, and then it goes back into my backlog
until next time.
So create a Trello board or an Asana or aMonday board to track your activities and
(49:59):
actually structure your work.
It helps.
I love it.
I couldn't agree more.
I use Asana.
I also use a journal.
Yeah.
No.
Love both of those options.
Well, this has been a ton of fun.
I'm gonna put all like I said, I'm gonna putall your connection stuff in the show notes
there for our listeners.
And until next time, adios.
(50:20):
Thank you, Justin.
Have a great day.
Bye for now.
So that's it.
That's this where'd you go?
There you go.
There we go.
Thanks for listening to building scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(50:43):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(51:06):
And until next time.
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