February 19, 2021 • 53 mins
On this episode, I interview Fiona Reith, the UK's first Designing Your Life certified coach and a phenomenal career change coach I know from training together.
After noticing how practical her approach was to life and coaching her career change clients, I asked what her secret was and what Designing Your Life meant. She recommended I read a book for career and life change called Designing Your Life by Dave Evans and Bill Burnett who are both professors at Stanford University that teach Design Thinking. This was and is an absolute game-changer for me and I’m now training with the authors Bill and Dave directly in becoming a certified Designing Your Life coach in April this year.
This conversation gives you a glimpse of why design thinking is so useful, practical and why we both love it so much!
In this episode, we discuss:
- The importance of prototyping your next career
- Using design thinking methodology for life and career design
- How to prototype through conversations and experiences
- My experience in prototyping interviews for becoming an employed podcast producer
- Scales of prototyping and your spectrum of possibilities
- Knowing when you have done enough prototyping to make a career decision
- Reframing problems with design thinking
- Networking to access the hidden job market
- What’s the one thing that’s made Fiona Reith burn from within?
Books:
- Designing Your Life: How to Build a Well-Lived, Joyful Life by Bill Burnnett & Dave Evans - this book in my opinion is a total game changer when it comes to career and life design and change. Get it now. I’m serious!
- Designing Your Work Life: How to Thrive and Change and Find Happiness at Work by Bill Burnnett & Dave Evans - this book is about making improvements in your existing career to become incrementally more fulfilled and happier, without necessarily doing anything drastic like a career change. Full of practical exercises.
Video Course:
- Designing Your Life video workshop online - this is a live class you can follow on-demand taught alongside other students with the authors of the book to help you really understand and go through the exercises of the book in groups. Definitely worth it.
Resources:
- Fiona Reith’s coaching website and Linked profile - Fiona is a phenomenal career coach so go have a conversation with her to discuss if she is right for you (if you enjoyed her awesome insights in this episode, she might be a good fit to help you in your career or out of it into a new fulfilling path
- A directory of certified Designing Your Life coaches from around the world - Fiona is the first DYL coach from the UK and Matt will also be on this list in April!
- Bill Burnett’s 5 steps to designing the life you want Tedx Talk and Dave Evan’s separate Designing Your Life Ted Talk
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (00:28):
On this week's episode, I have Fiona
Reith.
A phenomenal career changecoach.
I know from a certificationtraining we completed last year
together.
Called firework.
Now every time I met Fionaduring the course and subsequent
catch-ups.
I was just so impressed.
By how she thought about things,how she sold her own problems
(00:50):
and her clients' challenges.
She shed so many useful ideasand so much practical advice
that I asked her, where did allthis come from?
And she recommended a book forcareer and life change called
designing your life by DaveEvans and bill Burnett.
Who are both professors atStanford university that teach
(01:12):
design thinking.
This was ad is an absolute gamechanger for me.
And I'm now training with theauthor's bill and Dave.
Directly and becoming acertified designing your life
coach in April this year.
This conversation gives you aglimpse of why this way of
thinking is so useful.
(01:34):
Practical and why we both loveit so much.
In this episode, we discuss theimportance of prototyping your
next career.
Using design thinkingmethodology for life and career
design.
How to prototype throughconversations and experiences.
(01:55):
My experience in prototypinginterviews for becoming an
employee podcast producer.
Scales of prototyping and yourspectrum of possibilities.
Knowing when you've done enoughprototyping to make a career
decision.
Reframing problems with designthinking.
Networking to access the hiddenjob market.
(02:18):
And what's the one thing that'smade Fiona Reith burn from
within.
The full show notes and videosof other interviews.
Are available.
At burn from within.com forwardslash interviews.
So listen all the way through.
And enjoy.
you told me a little bit aboutsome work you've been doing with
a couple of guys from Stamforduniversity.
(02:40):
Dave Evans, and bill Burnett whowrote the book designing your
life.
Which I've read and I've readtheir subsequent book and now
devoured all of their materialand really jumped into this
world and love it.
And one of the things in thebook that, that really resonates
with me and also Strategies formy coaching clients.
(03:01):
And also just people looking forwork in general are looking for
what to do next in life is aconcept called prototyping.
Tell me a little bit about firstof all design thinking and how
significant the concept ofprototyping from it is both for
your life and your clients.
Fiona Reith (03:19):
Yeah that's a great question.
Thank you.
Design thinking or humancentered design, I think was
initially called, was, is a sortof concept from designers in
California.
Stanford university and ideal abig sort of design agency.
An innovation hub in SanFrancisco many years ago, but
(03:40):
the guys that you mentioned,bill and Dave took that concept
and turned it into a class thatcould be taught at Stanford,
really for graduates who werefloundering a little bit to
think okay, I've done all thesestudies, but what does that mean
for the real world?
What am I going to do next?
So is they designed a class thatyou could take at Stanford and
(04:00):
it became really popular.
And as they were doing, it endedup that alumni wanted to come
back and do it.
And then they realized thatthere was a market for this and
they wrote a book.
And it's really the same conceptthat designers use to design
products.
And maybe for those of usoutside the design world, we
maybe think that the way thatdesigners make products is that
they make something smart orthey make something cool or they
(04:21):
make something pretty.
And then we buy it.
But that's not really theprocess or it's certainly not
what human centered design is.
Human centered design is about.
What's the problem.
If you think about that from acareer point of view, it's quite
easy to answer that question.
Usually what's your careerproblem.
We'll maybe come back to those,some examples of those and then
(04:43):
get some awareness and someempathy about what's really
going on with that problem.
We all see the jokes about,somebody designing a solution
that doesn't really fit theproblem because it doesn't work
very well.
So you have to get a little bitof empathy and understanding of
the person and the situation.
Then come up with lots and lotsof ideas for you for moving
(05:04):
forward instead of in yourcareer.
I often do you hear people andthey've got one idea and you
think okay, how many jobs arethat in that, or is that really
accessible for you?
Come up with lots and lots ofideas, and this is where
prototyping comes in.
How do you decide which ideas totake forward?
You experiment, you test themout.
And that's what prototyping is.
(05:26):
It's essentially a careerexperiment, a really safe, low
key career experiment that givesyou a little bit more data
experience, evidence, emotionsabout your choice before you
make it.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (05:40):
That really makes sense to me.
And I think back to when I was16 and I was working lot of
people in the UK, they do workexperience.
A lot of people do it for aweek.
And that's a taster intobasically into the general world
of work.
It might be a taster into.
16 year olds, future career, whoknows?
(06:01):
Yeah.
Fiona Reith (06:01):
That's a brilliant example of a prototype
experiment and the thing is, sowhen we're young, we do them,
right?
So we do these work expedienceswe do these internships and they
do teach us things about theworld of work and things about
ourselves.
And the thing is we stoppeddoing them almost immediately.
We get into a job.
(06:23):
And then we run out of options.
So yeah, I think workexperiences is a brilliant
example that are two type ofprototype experiences in the
book and that we use in theprogram.
One of them is called prototypeconversations, or you might call
them informational interviews orcareer conversations.
There's not interviews.
So the word interviews like alittle bit misleading, but
(06:45):
opposed to take theconversation.
And then the other type is aprototype experience and you
would classify work expedienceas a prototype experience.
Prototype conversations are theconversations that we have with
people to find out more aboutthe thing that they do, that you
might be interested in doing islistening to their career story.
It's something that Clients shyaway from, but I would see, and
(07:09):
I think that's why we're talkingabout it today.
You and I think it's probablythe knob of the process is
probably the thing that makesthe difference.
Why is that?
Because we make our decisions,not just based on facts, career
decisions can't really be madeon cause and effect or pros and
(07:29):
cons.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (07:30):
Theory
Fiona Reith (07:31):
essentially Maybe.
Yes.
I know I went for, the kind ofclassic theoretical career
advice at times in my career andit didn't really move me
forward.
That's why I love this processso much because I've had the
theoretical advice as to what itlooks like.
I might be good at doing basedon my personality, based on my
(07:51):
education.
But this process is aboutfeeling your way forward felt
experience.
And if that sounds a bit fluffyto some people, you and I both
know that in positive psychologyand the book is written really
based on really strong evidenceof positive psychology, how
humans make decisions.
And we make decisions based onour gut instinct on our evidence
(08:15):
on experience.
You don't take a job withouttalking to somebody.
And it trying to work out ifit's gonna work for you.
So why would you change careerwithout talking to quite a lot
of people in the area thatyou're thinking of moving into
and getting a cross section ofkind of emotional data to see
whether it's the right thing foryou.
(08:36):
And then as you've discovered alittle bit more than maybe
designing a small experiment orprototype experience, when you
get more chance to try that out,
Matt Garrow-Fisher (08:46):
With informational interviews, that's
a one type of prototyping.
How did they work?
How do you set them up?
And w what is it like inpractice and what would be the
end result from an informationalinterview?
Fiona Reith (09:01):
Yeah, that's a really great question because I
do think the idea almost scarespeople a little bit.
But what you're looking for isto learn their story.
You want to talk to a crosssection of people.
And again, referring back to thebook the authors would see, pick
a good number of people.
If you think that you want towork in.
(09:22):
Is there any area of tech or acertain area of marketing, you
really want to pick five or sixpeople that work in that area.
So that, here's the thing thatscares people because I don't
know those people.
No, because that's not yourworld yet.
So you're going to have to, andthat's actually good because
talking to the people around youthere's a lot written on this.
And in, in career theory, isn'tthere about weak ties are better
(09:46):
than close ties.
People who knew you really well,they just know what you know,
and they know what you do.
And that's how they see you.
People who knew you a little bitless well are going to be more
open to you, changing and haveaccess to different pieces of
information.
So within your wider group offriends, I bet you know,
somebody who works in tech or Ibet, somebody who works in
(10:08):
marketing, do you think yourfriend would introduce you to
the person who works in thisother field?
So you could have a careerconversation with them?
Yes.
That's the first step.
I think that could work.
So usually through referral youget introduced to somebody and
you only ask for half an hour oftheir time, and you're really
looking to understand how theygot where they are to do.
(10:29):
So people like talking aboutthemselves, people like telling
their stories, it helps themwith their own self-reflection.
And so a 30 minute interview isprobably enough, but you do need
it.
The biggest mistake people makeis to not do enough of them
because you do need to really dofive or six.
And then you will realize, isthere something in that
conversation that resonated withme?
Something I would like doing,because you're asking them, what
(10:51):
do you do every day?
What do you like about your job?
How did you get there?
And what's next for you andindustry?
What's next for you?
Who else might I speak to?
Who works in this industry andthat sort of conversation.
If you just use your owncuriosity and don't try and
script it too much, be yourself,find out what it is you want to
find out about what it's like towork there.
(11:12):
A really obvious one, oftenclients come to me, you maybe
get this too.
And they've worked at a reallysmall company, or they've worked
at a really big company and theywant a complete change, but they
want to stay in a really smallcompany or stay in a really big
company because that's all theyknow.
Because they think that theywon't like working in a small
company or big company, whereverthe opposite is, but the point
(11:33):
is they've never spoken toanybody who works in the
opposite, so they don't actuallyknow whether they would like it.
They just think that they don'tlike it.
And that is what bill Burnettand Dave Evans would say that
the difference really betweensimulation and surrogation.
So simulation is when you lookat somebody and you look at the
(11:54):
peak of their life, the outsidebits of their life that you
think, I don't know.
I've got friends, who's ajournalist or I was talking to a
client the other day about,about this and you look at that
and you think would, I wouldlike to do that, or I wouldn't
like to do that.
And you're basing it on justwhat you can see.
But if you have a conversationwith them, you'll get more
information about what's theday.
What skills do they use?
(12:15):
What's the environment?
Like how much do they get paid?
Lots of people stop themselvesfrom doing career change because
they believe that the pay scalewill be different from what
they're currently on, but theydon't know.
So one way to find thatinformation is through one of
these experimental careerconversations.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (12:33):
I completely resonate with that.
I've done these informationalinterviews myself, I have a
portfolio career.
I do, freelance copywriting andsales.
And I, I love podcasts.
I love doing this podcast and Ithought, Oh, you know what,
maybe I could do.
Maybe I could get into thepodcasting world and actually be
paid like professionally as afreelance podcast host or
(12:54):
getting into that kind of areaand going, and actually speaking
to podcasts, hosts, podcast,producers like recognized ones
that, that I thought I'd madeit.
Some of the people I spoke to.
Set, they love their job and itwas interesting and got to speak
with amazing people.
And I, when I asked some of themwhat are the cons?
(13:16):
And yeah.
Some of them said, actually itreally barely pays the bills.
Like when you're paid, whenyou're not running as your own
business, but you're paid as apodcast host or producer.
And that kind of, that shiftedmy perspective.
And I was so excited about thatas a potential career.
And now I think.
Okay.
That's interesting.
That's changed my feeling.
(13:37):
Yeah.
New data.
Exactly.
Really.
And I think the point of jumpingin so many people just jump into
a career and they're not sure,but they just go for it.
It's like all their friends say,what are you try this.
And then maybe they apply, theymight get in and then they
spend, they might spend fiveyears or 10 years in a career
that they absolutely hate.
(13:59):
Because I hadn't tested it.
And one example of that, we havea guest on the show a few weeks
ago, a dentist, Tom Youngs, hespent, Almost 10 years training
to be a dentist.
As soon as he got into thedentists practice that he wanted
a really respected privatepractice.
He was he had a moment of justbeing in the room and realizing
(14:21):
he was going to be doing thisfor the next 30 years.
And he thought, what the hell amI doing?
And very shortly after he quit.
And had that horrible, painfultransition out.
So I, the importance of this isnot to be understated and the
power of information interviewsis, it can save years of
heartache in your life
Fiona Reith (14:40):
People come to you and they think, Oh, it's gonna,
this is going to take a longtime because they just want to
quick fix.
And you're like, yes.
But the reason you're in thissituation is because you've not
done this sort of priorresearch.
So let's just slow it down.
A tiny little bit thing.
What do you think you want to donext?
Let's speak to five or sixpeople who do that.
(15:01):
What also happens.
So it's not an interview.
You mustn't be asking aboutopenings or jobs because that
shifts the focus of theconversation.
They maybe don't have a job.
And then you feel that they feellike that spoke word and they
won't take your call.
Or, you feel that you're havingto impress them.
There's there should be none ofthat.
(15:21):
You need to be yourself and beled by your curiosity.
So it's not an interview, butwhat happens once you do a bunch
of these is you get connections.
Serendipity happens.
Yeah.
People come up with opera offersand opportunities that you would
never have had the vantage pointto see because you weren't
talking to people.
(15:41):
So the biggest mistake I thinkthat people make is to not talk.
Now, people don't talk becausethey feel vulnerable and they
feel shy.
So what we do before they dothis piece is we make sure
they're really straight on theirstory.
Why am I interested in this?
What's my motivation here.
What am I going to do with this?
This information that you giveme.
And and that's a really simpleformula and people get really
(16:02):
quite confident, but you'reright, that the pitfalls of not
doing this, you make a choicethat you dislike.
And as you see, you hear peopleseeing it is two months or two
years, once you start insomething, you're not going to
get out easily because as humanswe think there's a sort of sunk
cost.
I can't leave now.
What will people think.
The other thing that happens ispeople get really stuck because
(16:23):
in their head, there are lotsand lots of scenarios.
I could do this.
I might do that.
So I have a friend who's alwaysthought about being a teacher.
Is that nostalgic or is itactually something she could do?
It's really easy to find out.
I certainly have worked ineducation so I can introduce her
to a lot of teachers.
And she actually knows lots oflectures, herself, so many
(16:46):
teaching at a different MInstitute type of institution.
Have those conversations.
Also spend some time with youngpeople, see how that goes for
you.
That would be the next type ofof prototype is actually where
you have the, you actually havethe experience you actually go
and try something really small,that would you would imagine,
(17:06):
would be what your life might belike if you were doing this all
the time.
So example, I was working withsomebody who fancied really good
at yoga, finds him maybe being ayoga instructor, but had never
led a group to do anything.
Asked her yoga teacher to lether, at the beginning, just be
at the front of the class andthen to maybe demonstrate a move
(17:28):
and then maybe take a bit of theclass that would be a prototype
experience because all the timethat person's good.
I love this, or I hate this andthis isn't for me.
Maybe I'll go and write booksabout yoga because I don't want
still love yoga, but I don'tlike demonstrating it.
To other people, there's almostthis assumption that we can all
do everything and we'll allenjoy doing everything.
(17:50):
And actually that's not true.
That's so personal about what'smeaningful to us and what
matters to us and what makes us,and gives us joy at work and
flue and enjoyment at work.
Yeah,
Matt Garrow-Fisher (18:03):
I love that example.
Like that's really dipping yourtoe into a profession, leading
one yoga class and you'refamiliar with the teacher and
it's just seeing how teaching isfor you, for example.
So what are the kinds of thingsscales, from the other side of
prototyping, not informationinterviews, but actually the
experience is getting the actualexperiences.
(18:23):
What are the kind of scales thatpeople can take in order to test
things out, experientially Yeah.
Yeah.
From, from teaching a yoga classto does it go to just getting a
full-time job?
What is that really
Fiona Reith (18:38):
great question?
Because it takes me back to thecourse that we did together, the
spectrum of possibilities tool,which is really good way to see
to somebody.
Okay.
At the top end, you're planningto come out off.
I don't know the art world.
To go into the tech world or,being in quality management to
be in marketing.
Okay.
So that's quite a big jump.
(18:59):
So we'll put that at the topend, you're doing this new thing
that you want to do.
What are all the little thingsall the way down and chunk it
right down to what's thesmallest way that you could get
involved in that new world.
Often with clients.
You are looking at maybe doingan into remove you're maybe
looking at doing a move whereyou move from the company that
you work for, where you're thespecialist in something else
(19:21):
where you change sector.
So you're closer to the thingthat's interesting to you rather
than just doing it.
But yeah.
In terms of experiences,obviously we mentioned the
obvious things like interning.
Once you're in the page, all ofthat might be shadowing.
It might be offering to do aproject.
It might be doing some pro bonowork.
We certainly both done that tolearn how to coach you end up
(19:42):
doing pro bono coaching to getyour experience, but once you've
got your experience, You knowwhat it feels like to be a coach
and you go from there.
Other examples are things likevolunteering.
Volunteering is probably myfavorite.
I think it's the thing that if Ilook back on my own career, I
have never a volunteeringexpedience has never gone
(20:05):
without some thing coming out ofit.
It's just, you get so much fromdoing it, but you access a world
temporarily very few commitmentsthat you wouldn't normally have
access to, but you bring yourskills and your energy and you
give something.
And in return you meet a newbunch of people and you often
get new opportunities.
And I think people don't realizevolunteering and talk about
(20:26):
scale can go all the way from,being the marshal at the park
run.
Up to, sitting on a voluntaryboard and an almost everything
in between
Matt Garrow-Fisher (20:35):
following up on that point about
volunteering, I had a one of myguests, Luke Mickelson, he
worked in sales and he startedbuilding beds for kids, for his
local community.
It was volunteering to do that.
And because, and he justrealized he got so much
enjoyment from doing that.
Spare time.
And w I think he led his boyscout group to help him out.
And then his community startedhelping him out.
(20:57):
Then it got bigger and bigger,and it got to this kind of huge
organization that then thenational, and he had to make a
decision of, should I just dothis charity or should I quit my
six-figure sales job?
And.
He realized that actually that'swhat he wanted to do.
And he, in a way it was atransition of prototyping and it
(21:18):
gradually got bigger and biggeruntil he just knew that was the
decision he had to make.
Fiona Reith (21:22):
I think that's the point.
I'm really good point that youmake designing your life is once
you've got into the rhythm ofit.
You actually, for me, I lookedback and I thought, look,
there's all the times when I diddesign my life, I made
intentional decisions based onwhat mattered to me on really
strong evidence.
And they worked out and thereare other decisions that didn't
work highly that becauseprobably I didn't think of it.
(21:43):
So then as you go forward, it'sit.
The whole idea is that it'sbuilding your way forward.
It's not necessarily thesolution to two.
It could be, you could come toit in crisis.
But it would actually become away of doing things and that's
definitely what it is for me.
And then I think it's aboutpeople can then they they might
take an interim job.
So if I think about, clientsthat I've been working with, we
(22:06):
might decide that taking aninterim job whilst they retreat
or vice, they volunteer for thelonger term goal, because you've
got to, you've got to build upexperience, particularly if
you're making a complete careershift.
It's that actual, really the,not one of the nubs of career
coaching and people come to youand they really want to do some
(22:26):
things very different, and theybelieve they have the
transferable skills, but theyhaven't tested out in any way.
And therefore testing it outalso.
Adds evidence to your portfolio.
So instead of saying, I think Icould transfer it into this.
You can say, I can show you thatI can transfer it into this
because I interned, theyshadowed, I volunteered,
(22:50):
whatever it was you did.
It can go right up to that scaleof taking a secondment or a, or
an interim job, or, even takingtime out to travel or to layer
and can be part of theprototyping.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (23:06):
What I find quite interesting as well is the
kind of whole concept ofactually when you're
prototyping, when you're doingthese interviews or when you're
doing volunteering or interningyou are building relationships
and, from the informationalinterview stage you're
networking.
And although.
And the informational interviewis the purpose is not to have an
(23:27):
interview and not to ask for ajob actually.
By building those relationships,you are potentially able to
access a hidden job market wheresomeone can contact you in the
future and say, Hey, I rememberthat conversation where you're
interested in this career.
What, we actually have a.
An opening now it's notadvertised, I really liked your
(23:48):
our conversation.
And what would you say to maybeapplying for the job?
How have you found this accessto a hidden job market later on
after this networking for youand for your clients?
Fiona Reith (24:00):
That definitely happens, but it's definitely
happened to me.
My story was that I was in salesfor many years and I always knew
that there was somethingmissing.
And then I have to, I had mykids, I went into education, but
it's really interesting becausethe volunteering that I did both
as a student and when Ialongside my educational job,
they both led to other jobsbecause people know that you've
(24:23):
done this before.
I just had a call today fromsomebody seeing, I know you've
done this.
Do you want to think about doingit again?
So I think, that sort of pieceabout networking.
And it's really funny because Iwas thinking about a lot of my
clients.
Quite often, clients come to meand.
They keep coming, even afterthey've had the offer and the
(24:45):
job.
So the act of opening upprototyping, networking,
whatever you want to call it,connecting with other human
beings, telling your careerstory, being a little bit more
open about what it is you'reactually looking for.
Means that people know whatyou're looking for, what you're
looking for.
So when it comes up, you grabit.
(25:06):
Other people know what you'relooking for.
And so they're thinking of you.
So I have a number of clientswho are working with me and I
think.
The opportunities have come upand they've grabbed those and
we're still working togetherbecause they're not done
designing their life.
And I think the thing would be,we talking very much,about
prototyping today but, designingyour life can become a kind of
ongoing way of thinking aboutyour life and you can use it in
(25:29):
other aspects of your life toimprove your health, to improve
your relationships to decide,whether to move or to stay or to
scale up or retired early.
People, once they've had thatexperience I think the, they
want to keep thinking like that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (25:47):
One question that I have about prototyping is
how do you know when you've doneenough prototyping, but that you
can just make that decisionthat, Hey, this actually now I
think about it, maybe this isthe right career for me, and
I'll give you an example from myown life.
And this is early on.
I did some work experience.
I think it was when I was atschool at high school.
(26:09):
Doing, I think it was, I wasworking for Cisco doing some
kind of it CA computer typework.
And then I was like, I didn'tknow what to do.
University.
I ended up, I said, okay, I didthis work experience for a few
weeks in the computer industry.
I'm going to do a computingdegree at Imperial college.
And maybe I'm gonna, I'm gonnado a career in computing.
(26:32):
Turns out that I really did notlike computing at all.
And I tried to imagine myselfdoing that as a career, into my
undergraduate degree.
And I just hated it.
And I ended up dropping out ofthat university.
And so that's an example ofmaybe not prototyping enough to
know that potential career couldbe for you.
(26:53):
And it was a co it was a costlymistake for me.
I had to change universities.
Wasted.
We're not wasted, but I had ayear in a course that and a
university that I probablyshouldn't have done.
What can people, how can peopleknow that they've done enough
testing and practice?
Fiona Reith (27:08):
Yeah, that's a really great question.
And what you said is reallycommon in the, the book opens up
with people talking about that,studying the wrong thing.
Our system is very much set upon, study a subject.
Instead of study yourself.
So the answer to your questionis in two parts, one the prior
parts of designing your life isyou have to know yourself really
well.
(27:28):
You have to know what's missing.
You have to know what brings youenergy.
You have to know what it is thatyou like doing every day and
where your strengths are.
And yeah.
Yeah.
There's a piece of work to dothere and that we don't often do
before we make a decision.
And I think, yeah, it's quitefunny.
Cause I've got a story about,how much is too much.
(27:49):
I have some clients who I've gotclients in the crease of sectors
who may be journalists orresearchers and they do too many
interviews because they'refascinated by the story.
And then, and I have to bringthem back to.
Yeah.
W what about for you?
What does that mean for you?
Yeah, there's that questioningof oneself, which is what does
(28:10):
it mean for me?
What's that tool to me, I wouldlike more of that, or I wouldn't
like more of that.
What does it mean for me?
And I think that's probablywhere the coaching, I think
benefit comes in.
And when they run the course atStanford, everybody's doing it.
And, while you remember your unidays, there's lots of people
around and everybody wants tochat and you can do it in big
(28:31):
radical collaboration groups.
There's always somebody in thesame situation to talk to, but
yeah.
Once you're into your career.
There isn't really anybody totalk to you and maybe, and your
partner and your friends are alittle bit fed up, hearing you
talk about your career.
And so that's where the coach, Ithink element and or the
collaboration, if you can get asmall group together and to help
(28:53):
you a support group together, ora mentor or somebody else to
bounce your thinking off, andthen you get that support, the
accountability, the reframing.
And just helping you considerwhat it is you took out of those
conversations and experiences.
In my experience, theconversations tend to bring up,
(29:15):
recurring themes and then wedesign an experience.
Or two that he backs that up andthen momentum really takes over.
At that point.
At that point, there's waving atme over their shoulder.
I'm off, I'm going to try this.
And then after that I have aroadmap I'm going to try this
and that all the time I'm goingto be working at that or
improving this.
(29:36):
And once people get that sort ofconfidence in themselves, say
openness to the world and a bitof momentum it tends to move on.
I've done this with the boatand.
I've done this for two years.
I trained two years ago and weare going to do the course,
which is really exciting.
And I've done over two dozenpeople, so like a person a month
for the last two years.
And the, describe it as organicintuitive transformational.
(30:02):
So yeah, I think you do needoutside support.
Otherwise you would get lost inyour own thoughts and you might
interview too much or, just get.
And what do they call it?
Paralysis analysis paralysis.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (30:16):
Yeah, I think, the more information you
collect about yourself andfinding out about careers that
you're, that you might beinterested in, there's a level
that you need to unpack.
She can, you can do some of thatwith journaling, but actually
talking through ideas with.
With a coach, like someonethat's actually trained in being
(30:37):
able to listen, being able toand getting to know you over a
number of weeks or months toactually make suggestions based
on the relationship you have andhighlighting your blind spots.
As you landholders information
Fiona Reith (30:51):
yeah, there's another, they want a second book
and the bill and Dave talk aboutbest theoretical option and your
best doable option.
And so that clients don't fallback into the trap of in theory,
this time's perfect on paper.
This is I've designed my life.
That's the really important bitabout design thinking.
(31:15):
That's why I love it.
You have to take action.
The action can be tiny.
It can be to talk some more orto think some more or to try
something, but you have to takeaction and move forward.
Just thinking in theory, thatwould really be really good for
me.
Isn't enough and it's reallytraining people to see how do I
(31:35):
get more of that into my lifeeasily in a way that suits my
life or my personality and notThey're trying to be some kind
of unattainable person.
But just be you moving towardsthat goal.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (31:48):
Yeah.
And I think that's why I lovethis, the method of design
thinking, because it is a wayto, first of all, identify
problems.
Reframe problems in a way thatyou can actually take action on
that took, let's talk a littlebit about, how, some people
might be stuck in a problem fora long time, but actually there
(32:09):
are methods in order to createmovement with design thinking
like reframing Can you talk alittle bit about that and how
people can actually use that toget unstuck?
Fiona Reith (32:21):
Yeah, I think it was you were leading up to that
before and that whole thingabout.
It's asking yourself goodquestions.
That really is the key to, to,to all of this, but it is quite
difficult to reframe things byyourself.
What do you mean by reframe isto look at them from a different
perspective.
You've just explained reallyeloquently how you now have a
(32:41):
different perspective onsuccessful podcasters.
And it's getting perspective orvantage points for yourself that
are different from the one thatyou have.
There are lots and lots ofexamples eat new.
And this would overlaps withcoaching.
So in the book, they talk aboutdysfunctional beliefs, which is
a little bit harsh.
(33:02):
And, but, and we talk aboutlimiting beliefs in coaching all
the time.
People like me don't do that.
Really what's that about?
So it's about really saying whatis it you're stuck on?
And often we come back to designthinking is it's the idea that
people have this one idea aboutthemselves rather than a broader
(33:22):
idea of all the ways that theycould get involved.
So if people come to me and theywant to do something, that's
really quite, Unique.
The example I always think aboutis I think I'm gonna be talking
to you about this one, just likethe Edinburgh book festival.
Everybody wants to work for theEdinburgh book festival.
The team's tiny.
I actually know someone thatworks on the team.
It's a really small, tight teamand people work there for a very
(33:44):
long time.
And what you want to do withsomebody is really design
thinking is brilliant.
You zoom out and you think whatare all the other things that
would feel like that.
And they could be as diverse asactually, what is it you really
like about it?
If you really dig into what youdo you really like about it?
It's this aspect of her, of it'sthat well, where else won't we
(34:07):
find that and it's going throughand just seeing.
Going back to your point, butthe problem is their perspective
is that's the only thing thatthey really want to do.
They don't like the hate whatthey do now.
And the only thing that's goingto make them happier is to have
that job.
They don't know.
They just think that is a selflimiting belief.
That's what bill and Dave wouldcall an anchor problem.
(34:29):
You've decided that the solutionto your problem.
Is one thing and one thingalone.
And so you can unpick thatreally by zooming right out and
working out, how do you get moreof what it is you imagine that
should be in your actual lifenow?
And so that, that's the kind ofway that we do it on the design
(34:52):
thinking.
The other type of problem thatthey talk about is a gravity
problem.
So that's the thing where peoplethe gravity problem we have
right now is I wish there was noCOVID right.
Okay.
But there's nothing we can doabout that.
That's it.
So we have to design it.
The classic one, I wish thiscompany was more
entrepreneurial.
I wish this local authority wasmore entrepreneurial to work
for.
No, you're in the wrong place.
(35:14):
If the culture is notentrepreneurial, if you've got a
gravity problem, you need totake your entrepreneurial.
And mindset somewhere else wherea, where else might that be?
So it's trying to give adifferent perspective.
And cause we all can get veryone, particularly once you're in
a job or in a sector, in aprofession you're busy.
(35:35):
And so your world becomes quitenarrow and it's broadening out
again before you use the zoomingout and then obviously then you
have to make some decisions tomove forward.
But certainly zooming out beforeyou zoom in.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (35:46):
Yeah, and you can apply this kind of
thinking, not just for careerchange, but actually if you're
unhappy in your job.
And if, for example you feellike your boss is not listening
to you or doesn't, take youropinions into account and so
designing how would you dealwith something like that?
Like a work issue that you wantto overcome it, would that be a
(36:11):
an anchor problem or gravityproblem?
Could you reframe those kinds ofissues?
Fiona Reith (36:17):
Yeah, I think reframing is the way to go
there.
As bill and Dave wrote a secondbook called designing your work
life because actually whathappens with designing your
life?
You don't, people don'tnecessarily rip everything up
and change.
They just, what they learnedthrough that process, that
people just do more of what theylove and that's where things get
better and easier for them.
And they recognize that youdon't always have the kind of
(36:38):
choice to leave.
And I've worked with peopleparticularly in.
And vocations like teaching ormedicine where they really is
their true purpose.
It's just that factors aroundthem are not working for them.
So they aren't prepared toleave.
They have to find a way toreframe or to move sideways, to
(37:00):
look at a different way to.
And whether they decide to, theysay reframe and re-enlist, so
think again about why you dothis, really focus on your
values and why you do it anotherway is to assist slightly.
If you have a little bit ofcontrol over the type of work
that you do more of the stuffthat energizes you and see if
there's a way to delegate the,some of the things that don't,
(37:22):
you might be able to get on aproject or a condiment.
I think a lot of that, again,it's just about.
As you say, it's just aboutperspective and coming from an
outside perspective as well.
What about all these otherthings?
Because staying where you are,you could just see where you
are, but you're really not happywhere you are.
What are the other things thatyou can do?
And I've had really greatsuccess with as I say, both
(37:44):
education and medicine wherepeople it's very stressful work,
but they've really passionateabout it.
And when they dialogue the stuffthat really matters to them,
Some of the things that havebeen burning them out or causing
them difficulty feed a littlebit, it's being really
(38:04):
intentional about what you focuson and why it's so quite
nuanced.
And it is it's quite personal,but it's definitely doable.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (38:12):
Yeah.
I think, especially when peopleare thinking about changing
their careers it might be thatthey just, they have a feeling
that they just hate thisindustry or they hate their boss
or they work, but actuallydefining what the actual
specific problem is of why theydon't like their job often that
can unlock.
Solutions where they actuallylove their job.
(38:34):
And it might be that they havebetter communication with their
boss.
I remember, I think in the bookit said someone was, they
weren't getting any appreciationfrom their boss.
I can't remember the exact casestudy, but.
They re they, they just weren'tgetting any kind of good
feedback and they thought, Ijust want to quit.
I can't stand this.
And they actually asked theirboss am I doing anything wrong?
(38:57):
Am I doing anything wrong?
And that boss shared that whatactually It's not, you it's me.
I've been going through somepersonal problems.
Like I've got some issues withmy marriage and I've actually
been taking it out on you.
And actually I really liked yourwork and I want you to take more
ownership of it.
And it was that it's these kindsof stories that there are ways
around just chucking in yourcareer or your job.
(39:20):
A lot of it's to do withcommunication and a lot of it's
to do with identifyingspecifically what the problem is
and what actions can you take tomove forward with that problem.
And it might be that it might bethe boss says.
No, I just don't like you, inwhich case, maybe then you've
validated your hypothesis andmaybe it is time to move on but
(39:41):
it's this way of thinking thatit can lead into many different
routes, like moving across todifferent functions from
accountancy to marketing.
For example, if you're lookingto.
Go into more creative side orcon as you said, like delegating
tasks to other people to, sothat you do more things that
energize you and that totallychanges your whole experience in
(40:02):
your day.
so obviously you're coachingpeople on design thinking.
How has designed thinking helpedyour own life in terms of how
you approach life now, aftercoming across it.
Fiona Reith (40:15):
Yeah.
It was, that's why I'm sopassionate about it because I
think I was looking for it.
And I I had huge benefits to mein my life.
So I, I think I said before Iworked in sales, I thought I
wanted to do something for me.
More meaningful when thechildren came along, I worked in
education and it was super,rewarding work.
(40:35):
So I'd shifted there.
And then, but then I fell intothe trap of doing the same thing
as I'd done in sales andclimbing the ladder and not
paying so much attention to myown needs.
And I was lucky enough to beworking with a coach.
And we were such a, I guess wewere quitting my motivation.
(40:56):
And then I have this book.
I had two copies of the bookcause I bought two copies, one
for me and one for my husband.
And that's what happens whenpeople discover it, don't let it
become a bit of unrealistic andstart buying the book can
sending it to people.
And I, yeah, I worked throughthe book and for me, I take a
bit of I think I would say bothtimes I've pivoted in my career.
I think burnout inhales issueswhere we're underlying.
(41:21):
And I did.
I've got my copy of the bookhere.
I got it out before we talked.
And I've got my, literally mynotes written and say, as to the
scores, I gave myself as alittle dashboard that you do at
the front and you have to scoreyourself.
Don't they're still on health,love, play and work.
And it was pretty devastating.
(41:41):
And this is the first chapter ofthe book.
And health was really low playwas non-negotiable.
It was negligible and work waskilling me, but I was full of
love for my family, which isquite similar to, I think, and
the example that they give inthe book.
And I decided to put as muchemphasis on my health as I put
on other things and see whathappened.
(42:02):
And that was through reading thebook.
And I started to do the kind ofmicro improvements of my health
and everything else fell intoplace after that.
I think for me reading the book,I then decided to do the course
and I went to California and Imet bill and Dave and the
community of coaches who are allusing this in their practice.
(42:24):
And that was a sort of lifechanging thing for me.
So I sat in that room and Ithought, Oh, I'm going to have
to change my life.
And I, I literally swollen withthe boot call and I did, I came
back to my husband and said, I'mgoing to leave my job.
I'm going to start coachingfull-time.
And he's hang on and say, andthey don't advise you do, he
didn't know that it was coming.
So I left a little bit andeventually finished the work
(42:47):
that I was doing and set up myown coaching practice.
So what I'd been doing before, Ido still do innovation and
education.
But I do like you have aportfolio career, so I do a few
different things and I diddesigned all of that.
Through reading the book andbeing and having a coach, as
well or not that the coach was,we knew about the book, but it
(43:11):
was helping us both with thatprocess.
And then I've taken that kind ofstep further we've Sold up,
downsized changed our lifestyle.
So all to do with the thingsthat matter most health family,
meaningful work.
And so yeah, it for me, it's, Iliterally it changed my life.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (43:30):
Wow.
What a great answer.
I wasn't expecting all of that.
Literally did change your life.
And yeah.
That's what I love about aboutthis way of thinking about it.
Design thinking designing yourlife mentality is that it
doesn't just apply to work.
It doesn't just apply to yourcareer.
It actually, you can use the,this, these principles and
these, this structured thinkingto solve all.
(43:53):
Problems in your life.
So you move forward in smallways, in actionable ways that
that are doable.
And actually, if you continue todo that, you can make
improvements in many differentareas of your life.
And that is that's freeing andthat's liberating.
And
Fiona Reith (44:09):
that's different from sitting stuck thinking I'd
really like to do that big thingover there and never do it.
The reframe is what about doinglots of little things?
That might not take you to,that.
They might take you somewhereelse, but if what's guiding you
and I think that's what the bookat the basis of it, they really
don't.
They decry this idea of worklife balance.
(44:31):
They talk about coherence.
And the fact that your work inlife need to be coherent.
So there are times in your lifelike you did.
And like I did where you have toget out, get a job and earn some
money and get some experience.
And that's the right thing to dowith that stage of your life.
But then there are these pivotpoints, which seem to come quite
naturally in an adult's life,that kind of group in certain
(44:52):
ways where you have to, yourlife stage changes and you need
something else.
And this gives you a really Iwould say it's easy because I've
done it, but it wasn'tnecessarily easy going through
it, but it reduces your feed andyour risk.
It breaks it down into smallbite size chunks.
And it's always coming backabout what really matters to you
and gives you some confidenceand some momentum.
(45:14):
And it's informed by what'sactually happening in the real
world, rather than getting stuckin these sort of swirling
thoughts of what, whatever, whatFinTech and a different path.
What if I, what five was like,then what if I could be better
at this?
Would it change anything andsooner?
I think it really is an amazingbook.
(45:34):
And And, process and, that's whyI'm really glad that you invited
me on talk about it.
And not just that, that, you'veactually read the book and taken
your own sort of steps forward.
And I think, one of the nextthings is certainly the I'm
really keen to do and alwayshave been, is to bring this
philosophy or way of thinkingabout careers.
That's more human centered.
(45:57):
To more people, particularly inthe UK who may not have hair.
Do you know?
Because if you're not adesigner, you're not necessarily
of haired of this.
And even if you are a designer,you've, I've worked with
designers and they think it'sbrilliant because they've tried
to consult on themselves.
The process that they use forwork, that doesn't work, they
need outside inputs.
(46:17):
They need those careerconversations, the experiences,
the support group of mentorcoach or your, or your own
designing your life team.
Yeah, it's I'm really excited.
Friends and I are also workingon a mighty community for later
in the year to help more people.
To use this philosophy really todesign their careers.
(46:40):
I love
Matt Garrow-Fisher (46:40):
it.
I love it.
Before I asked my last question,Fiona how can people get in
touch with you?
Who do you normally work with?
And how can you help them?
Fiona Reith (46:51):
Okay.
I have a website, if you fonareithcoaching.co.uk I'm on
LinkedIn, really active onLinkedIn.
Also there's the designing yourlife website, which is great,
and it profiles all the coaches.
So there's not just me.
There's lots of coaches nowacross the world.
And literally you could workwith any of those coaches,
whichever one.
(47:11):
And had the right chemistry foryou.
So there's the designing yourlife website is definitely worth
the loop because there's somedownloadable free resources on
there as well.
Upcoming events, people canlearn more about the process for
me.
I tend to work with.
People tend to come to me at twosuch of critical life stages and
kind of late twenties, earlythirties, late forties.
(47:34):
And those are the two stageswhere they've either maybe go
into something that they realizeisn't working, or they've been
doing something for a long timeand they know that for the next
phase of their career, theywould really like a redesign.
And so those are my kind of twotypes of clients.
My clients come from.
All different sectors.
As I see, I have worked withdesigners, but I've also worked
(47:55):
with teachers and people inmedicine and education.
Lots of people in tech becausethey just get it because they
use design thinking processesall the time, but equally people
in finance.
So it doesn't really matter.
It's more about your mindset andjust taking a slightly more
human centered creative.
Probably because the theoreticalapproach hasn't worked for you
(48:17):
like you and I were both seeing,we've both fallen fatal of.
Reading the book and thinkingthe book's going to give you the
answer or speaking to acounselor and thinking, they're
going to tell you what to do.
And this gives you a kind of atool set to to sort it out for
yourself.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (48:35):
I love it.
I love it.
Fiona, my last question, I seeyou as someone that's burning
from within you're living with.
With passion.
You certainly have purpose interms of the work that you do.
And you have balance you, youhave a portfolio career.
You've raised a lovely familyand have a lovely husband as
well.
(48:56):
What's the one thing that's madethe biggest difference for you
to live with passion, purpose,and balance and burn from
within.
Fiona Reith (49:03):
Wow.
That's your biggie.
I should have practice my answerto this one.
I just came off a call with aschool I'm working with and
we're looking at this.
Because I think my real passionsare things like, that sort of
confluence of creativity andinnovation, but also skills for
work.
Cause I really think thateverybody should enjoy.
What they do every day and andthe everybody's got the
(49:25):
potential, everybody's got asuper strength.
And so I just, I've alwaysbelieved that I've always had
that confidence in that.
So I think the thing that's madethe biggest difference for me,
And it was something, one of mycoaches, a couple of coachings,
probably the thing, actually, ifyou think about it, because if I
think about my coaches that I'vehad, and I've been really lucky
(49:47):
and I, you said it about, makinga wrong decision.
I don't think there is a wrongdecision.
Young people come to me and sayone word, a moment.
There isn't a wrong decision.
You always learn everything youdo and everything builds and
everything.
Some of the things I've donethat know inform what, I'm going
to do in future.
There's no such thing as a wrongdecision, but coaching really I
was really lucky in my corporatecareer to experience really high
(50:09):
quality coaching.
And that probably inspired me.
And then the questions of peoplesaying to me what are you doing
now?
Why are you doing it?
And my coach who taught me tocoach and is there my supervisor
saying people see what you do ifyou want to.
But they don't see who you are.
So I was really focused ondoing, achieving succeeding,
(50:32):
outward success, if I'm honest,because that's just what I
thought.
I'd absorbed that idea and hesaw something different and I
shifted from being, very it'sfunny.
I wrote these things down beforewe, we did come on and it was
about, it was all about budgetsand projects and yeah.
Things going quicker and fasterand higher.
(50:53):
And he saw that actually thosesame skills, the listening
skills, the supporting skills,the belief in other people were
actually the things I should beleading with.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (51:02):
I love it.
Getting that outside perspectiveyou don't necessarily know it
yourself, but they though thoseare the things that really shine
in you and that's superimportant to do it.
And I've benefited from thatmyself from coaches, from going
on retreats lots of differentexercises and continue to do so
awesome.
I love that one.
Thank you so much, Fiona, for anamazing interview.
(51:26):
Everyone that the show noteswe'll have all the links to
contact Fiona, the designingyour life book and website for
you to check all of that out.
And thank you once again for anamazing conversation.
Fiona Reith (51:39):
Thank you.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (51:41):
I loved how Fiona's life completely
transformed.
As a result of discoveringdesign thinking, she changed
careers and went full time intocoaching downsized our house.
Transformed her health andchanged her lifestyle.
In such a positive way.
I totally encourage all of you.
Burned from within is listeningto this to go check out the
(52:03):
book.
Designing your life by billBurnett and Dave Evans.
They also have another bookcalled designing your work life,
which is not so much aboutcareer change, but how to make
changes within your career orjob to feel happier and more
fulfilled.
Both are full of practicalexercises that have been tried
and tested on.
(52:24):
Thousands of people around theworld, as you would expect from
Stanford university professors,all the details of these
resources are in this episode,show notes.
So make sure you check them out.
If you enjoy this episode.
Go right ahead and leave areview for this podcast.
By going to rate thispodcast.com forward slash burn
(52:45):
from within that's rate, thispodcast.com forward slash burn
from within and stay updatedwith more inspiring interviews
by hitting the subscribe buttonnow on your player for this
podcast.
Until next time.
Live with passion, purpose, andbalance and burn from within.
On this week's episode, I have Fiona
Reith.
A phenomenal career changecoach.
I know from a certificationtraining we completed last year
together.
Called firework.
Now every time I met Fionaduring the course and subsequent
catch-ups.
I was just so impressed.
By how she thought about things,how she sold her own problems
(00:50):
and her clients' challenges.
She shed so many useful ideasand so much practical advice
that I asked her, where did allthis come from?
And she recommended a book forcareer and life change called
designing your life by DaveEvans and bill Burnett.
Who are both professors atStanford university that teach
(01:12):
design thinking.
This was ad is an absolute gamechanger for me.
And I'm now training with theauthor's bill and Dave.
Directly and becoming acertified designing your life
coach in April this year.
This conversation gives you aglimpse of why this way of
thinking is so useful.
(01:34):
Practical and why we both loveit so much.
In this episode, we discuss theimportance of prototyping your
next career.
Using design thinkingmethodology for life and career
design.
How to prototype throughconversations and experiences.
(01:55):
My experience in prototypinginterviews for becoming an
employee podcast producer.
Scales of prototyping and yourspectrum of possibilities.
Knowing when you've done enoughprototyping to make a career
decision.
Reframing problems with designthinking.
Networking to access the hiddenjob market.
(02:18):
And what's the one thing that'smade Fiona Reith burn from
within.
The full show notes and videosof other interviews.
Are available.
At burn from within.com forwardslash interviews.
So listen all the way through.
And enjoy.
you told me a little bit aboutsome work you've been doing with
a couple of guys from Stamforduniversity.
(02:40):
Dave Evans, and bill Burnett whowrote the book designing your
life.
Which I've read and I've readtheir subsequent book and now
devoured all of their materialand really jumped into this
world and love it.
And one of the things in thebook that, that really resonates
with me and also Strategies formy coaching clients.
(03:01):
And also just people looking forwork in general are looking for
what to do next in life is aconcept called prototyping.
Tell me a little bit about firstof all design thinking and how
significant the concept ofprototyping from it is both for
your life and your clients.
Fiona Reith (03:19):
Yeah that's a great question.
Thank you.
Design thinking or humancentered design, I think was
initially called, was, is a sortof concept from designers in
California.
Stanford university and ideal abig sort of design agency.
An innovation hub in SanFrancisco many years ago, but
(03:40):
the guys that you mentioned,bill and Dave took that concept
and turned it into a class thatcould be taught at Stanford,
really for graduates who werefloundering a little bit to
think okay, I've done all thesestudies, but what does that mean
for the real world?
What am I going to do next?
So is they designed a class thatyou could take at Stanford and
(04:00):
it became really popular.
And as they were doing, it endedup that alumni wanted to come
back and do it.
And then they realized thatthere was a market for this and
they wrote a book.
And it's really the same conceptthat designers use to design
products.
And maybe for those of usoutside the design world, we
maybe think that the way thatdesigners make products is that
they make something smart orthey make something cool or they
(04:21):
make something pretty.
And then we buy it.
But that's not really theprocess or it's certainly not
what human centered design is.
Human centered design is about.
What's the problem.
If you think about that from acareer point of view, it's quite
easy to answer that question.
Usually what's your careerproblem.
We'll maybe come back to those,some examples of those and then
(04:43):
get some awareness and someempathy about what's really
going on with that problem.
We all see the jokes about,somebody designing a solution
that doesn't really fit theproblem because it doesn't work
very well.
So you have to get a little bitof empathy and understanding of
the person and the situation.
Then come up with lots and lotsof ideas for you for moving
(05:04):
forward instead of in yourcareer.
I often do you hear people andthey've got one idea and you
think okay, how many jobs arethat in that, or is that really
accessible for you?
Come up with lots and lots ofideas, and this is where
prototyping comes in.
How do you decide which ideas totake forward?
You experiment, you test themout.
And that's what prototyping is.
(05:26):
It's essentially a careerexperiment, a really safe, low
key career experiment that givesyou a little bit more data
experience, evidence, emotionsabout your choice before you
make it.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (05:40):
That really makes sense to me.
And I think back to when I was16 and I was working lot of
people in the UK, they do workexperience.
A lot of people do it for aweek.
And that's a taster intobasically into the general world
of work.
It might be a taster into.
16 year olds, future career, whoknows?
(06:01):
Yeah.
Fiona Reith (06:01):
That's a brilliant example of a prototype
experiment and the thing is, sowhen we're young, we do them,
right?
So we do these work expedienceswe do these internships and they
do teach us things about theworld of work and things about
ourselves.
And the thing is we stoppeddoing them almost immediately.
We get into a job.
(06:23):
And then we run out of options.
So yeah, I think workexperiences is a brilliant
example that are two type ofprototype experiences in the
book and that we use in theprogram.
One of them is called prototypeconversations, or you might call
them informational interviews orcareer conversations.
There's not interviews.
So the word interviews like alittle bit misleading, but
(06:45):
opposed to take theconversation.
And then the other type is aprototype experience and you
would classify work expedienceas a prototype experience.
Prototype conversations are theconversations that we have with
people to find out more aboutthe thing that they do, that you
might be interested in doing islistening to their career story.
It's something that Clients shyaway from, but I would see, and
(07:09):
I think that's why we're talkingabout it today.
You and I think it's probablythe knob of the process is
probably the thing that makesthe difference.
Why is that?
Because we make our decisions,not just based on facts, career
decisions can't really be madeon cause and effect or pros and
(07:29):
cons.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (07:30):
Theory
Fiona Reith (07:31):
essentially Maybe.
Yes.
I know I went for, the kind ofclassic theoretical career
advice at times in my career andit didn't really move me
forward.
That's why I love this processso much because I've had the
theoretical advice as to what itlooks like.
I might be good at doing basedon my personality, based on my
(07:51):
education.
But this process is aboutfeeling your way forward felt
experience.
And if that sounds a bit fluffyto some people, you and I both
know that in positive psychologyand the book is written really
based on really strong evidenceof positive psychology, how
humans make decisions.
And we make decisions based onour gut instinct on our evidence
(08:15):
on experience.
You don't take a job withouttalking to somebody.
And it trying to work out ifit's gonna work for you.
So why would you change careerwithout talking to quite a lot
of people in the area thatyou're thinking of moving into
and getting a cross section ofkind of emotional data to see
whether it's the right thing foryou.
(08:36):
And then as you've discovered alittle bit more than maybe
designing a small experiment orprototype experience, when you
get more chance to try that out,
Matt Garrow-Fisher (08:46):
With informational interviews, that's
a one type of prototyping.
How did they work?
How do you set them up?
And w what is it like inpractice and what would be the
end result from an informationalinterview?
Fiona Reith (09:01):
Yeah, that's a really great question because I
do think the idea almost scarespeople a little bit.
But what you're looking for isto learn their story.
You want to talk to a crosssection of people.
And again, referring back to thebook the authors would see, pick
a good number of people.
If you think that you want towork in.
(09:22):
Is there any area of tech or acertain area of marketing, you
really want to pick five or sixpeople that work in that area.
So that, here's the thing thatscares people because I don't
know those people.
No, because that's not yourworld yet.
So you're going to have to, andthat's actually good because
talking to the people around youthere's a lot written on this.
And in, in career theory, isn'tthere about weak ties are better
(09:46):
than close ties.
People who knew you really well,they just know what you know,
and they know what you do.
And that's how they see you.
People who knew you a little bitless well are going to be more
open to you, changing and haveaccess to different pieces of
information.
So within your wider group offriends, I bet you know,
somebody who works in tech or Ibet, somebody who works in
(10:08):
marketing, do you think yourfriend would introduce you to
the person who works in thisother field?
So you could have a careerconversation with them?
Yes.
That's the first step.
I think that could work.
So usually through referral youget introduced to somebody and
you only ask for half an hour oftheir time, and you're really
looking to understand how theygot where they are to do.
(10:29):
So people like talking aboutthemselves, people like telling
their stories, it helps themwith their own self-reflection.
And so a 30 minute interview isprobably enough, but you do need
it.
The biggest mistake people makeis to not do enough of them
because you do need to really dofive or six.
And then you will realize, isthere something in that
conversation that resonated withme?
Something I would like doing,because you're asking them, what
(10:51):
do you do every day?
What do you like about your job?
How did you get there?
And what's next for you andindustry?
What's next for you?
Who else might I speak to?
Who works in this industry andthat sort of conversation.
If you just use your owncuriosity and don't try and
script it too much, be yourself,find out what it is you want to
find out about what it's like towork there.
(11:12):
A really obvious one, oftenclients come to me, you maybe
get this too.
And they've worked at a reallysmall company, or they've worked
at a really big company and theywant a complete change, but they
want to stay in a really smallcompany or stay in a really big
company because that's all theyknow.
Because they think that theywon't like working in a small
company or big company, whereverthe opposite is, but the point
(11:33):
is they've never spoken toanybody who works in the
opposite, so they don't actuallyknow whether they would like it.
They just think that they don'tlike it.
And that is what bill Burnettand Dave Evans would say that
the difference really betweensimulation and surrogation.
So simulation is when you lookat somebody and you look at the
(11:54):
peak of their life, the outsidebits of their life that you
think, I don't know.
I've got friends, who's ajournalist or I was talking to a
client the other day about,about this and you look at that
and you think would, I wouldlike to do that, or I wouldn't
like to do that.
And you're basing it on justwhat you can see.
But if you have a conversationwith them, you'll get more
information about what's theday.
What skills do they use?
(12:15):
What's the environment?
Like how much do they get paid?
Lots of people stop themselvesfrom doing career change because
they believe that the pay scalewill be different from what
they're currently on, but theydon't know.
So one way to find thatinformation is through one of
these experimental careerconversations.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (12:33):
I completely resonate with that.
I've done these informationalinterviews myself, I have a
portfolio career.
I do, freelance copywriting andsales.
And I, I love podcasts.
I love doing this podcast and Ithought, Oh, you know what,
maybe I could do.
Maybe I could get into thepodcasting world and actually be
paid like professionally as afreelance podcast host or
(12:54):
getting into that kind of areaand going, and actually speaking
to podcasts, hosts, podcast,producers like recognized ones
that, that I thought I'd madeit.
Some of the people I spoke to.
Set, they love their job and itwas interesting and got to speak
with amazing people.
And I, when I asked some of themwhat are the cons?
(13:16):
And yeah.
Some of them said, actually itreally barely pays the bills.
Like when you're paid, whenyou're not running as your own
business, but you're paid as apodcast host or producer.
And that kind of, that shiftedmy perspective.
And I was so excited about thatas a potential career.
And now I think.
Okay.
That's interesting.
That's changed my feeling.
(13:37):
Yeah.
New data.
Exactly.
Really.
And I think the point of jumpingin so many people just jump into
a career and they're not sure,but they just go for it.
It's like all their friends say,what are you try this.
And then maybe they apply, theymight get in and then they
spend, they might spend fiveyears or 10 years in a career
that they absolutely hate.
(13:59):
Because I hadn't tested it.
And one example of that, we havea guest on the show a few weeks
ago, a dentist, Tom Youngs, hespent, Almost 10 years training
to be a dentist.
As soon as he got into thedentists practice that he wanted
a really respected privatepractice.
He was he had a moment of justbeing in the room and realizing
(14:21):
he was going to be doing thisfor the next 30 years.
And he thought, what the hell amI doing?
And very shortly after he quit.
And had that horrible, painfultransition out.
So I, the importance of this isnot to be understated and the
power of information interviewsis, it can save years of
heartache in your life
Fiona Reith (14:40):
People come to you and they think, Oh, it's gonna,
this is going to take a longtime because they just want to
quick fix.
And you're like, yes.
But the reason you're in thissituation is because you've not
done this sort of priorresearch.
So let's just slow it down.
A tiny little bit thing.
What do you think you want to donext?
Let's speak to five or sixpeople who do that.
(15:01):
What also happens.
So it's not an interview.
You mustn't be asking aboutopenings or jobs because that
shifts the focus of theconversation.
They maybe don't have a job.
And then you feel that they feellike that spoke word and they
won't take your call.
Or, you feel that you're havingto impress them.
There's there should be none ofthat.
(15:21):
You need to be yourself and beled by your curiosity.
So it's not an interview, butwhat happens once you do a bunch
of these is you get connections.
Serendipity happens.
Yeah.
People come up with opera offersand opportunities that you would
never have had the vantage pointto see because you weren't
talking to people.
(15:41):
So the biggest mistake I thinkthat people make is to not talk.
Now, people don't talk becausethey feel vulnerable and they
feel shy.
So what we do before they dothis piece is we make sure
they're really straight on theirstory.
Why am I interested in this?
What's my motivation here.
What am I going to do with this?
This information that you giveme.
And and that's a really simpleformula and people get really
(16:02):
quite confident, but you'reright, that the pitfalls of not
doing this, you make a choicethat you dislike.
And as you see, you hear peopleseeing it is two months or two
years, once you start insomething, you're not going to
get out easily because as humanswe think there's a sort of sunk
cost.
I can't leave now.
What will people think.
The other thing that happens ispeople get really stuck because
(16:23):
in their head, there are lotsand lots of scenarios.
I could do this.
I might do that.
So I have a friend who's alwaysthought about being a teacher.
Is that nostalgic or is itactually something she could do?
It's really easy to find out.
I certainly have worked ineducation so I can introduce her
to a lot of teachers.
And she actually knows lots oflectures, herself, so many
(16:46):
teaching at a different MInstitute type of institution.
Have those conversations.
Also spend some time with youngpeople, see how that goes for
you.
That would be the next type ofof prototype is actually where
you have the, you actually havethe experience you actually go
and try something really small,that would you would imagine,
(17:06):
would be what your life might belike if you were doing this all
the time.
So example, I was working withsomebody who fancied really good
at yoga, finds him maybe being ayoga instructor, but had never
led a group to do anything.
Asked her yoga teacher to lether, at the beginning, just be
at the front of the class andthen to maybe demonstrate a move
(17:28):
and then maybe take a bit of theclass that would be a prototype
experience because all the timethat person's good.
I love this, or I hate this andthis isn't for me.
Maybe I'll go and write booksabout yoga because I don't want
still love yoga, but I don'tlike demonstrating it.
To other people, there's almostthis assumption that we can all
do everything and we'll allenjoy doing everything.
(17:50):
And actually that's not true.
That's so personal about what'smeaningful to us and what
matters to us and what makes us,and gives us joy at work and
flue and enjoyment at work.
Yeah,
Matt Garrow-Fisher (18:03):
I love that example.
Like that's really dipping yourtoe into a profession, leading
one yoga class and you'refamiliar with the teacher and
it's just seeing how teaching isfor you, for example.
So what are the kinds of thingsscales, from the other side of
prototyping, not informationinterviews, but actually the
experience is getting the actualexperiences.
(18:23):
What are the kind of scales thatpeople can take in order to test
things out, experientially Yeah.
Yeah.
From, from teaching a yoga classto does it go to just getting a
full-time job?
What is that really
Fiona Reith (18:38):
great question?
Because it takes me back to thecourse that we did together, the
spectrum of possibilities tool,which is really good way to see
to somebody.
Okay.
At the top end, you're planningto come out off.
I don't know the art world.
To go into the tech world or,being in quality management to
be in marketing.
Okay.
So that's quite a big jump.
(18:59):
So we'll put that at the topend, you're doing this new thing
that you want to do.
What are all the little thingsall the way down and chunk it
right down to what's thesmallest way that you could get
involved in that new world.
Often with clients.
You are looking at maybe doingan into remove you're maybe
looking at doing a move whereyou move from the company that
you work for, where you're thespecialist in something else
(19:21):
where you change sector.
So you're closer to the thingthat's interesting to you rather
than just doing it.
But yeah.
In terms of experiences,obviously we mentioned the
obvious things like interning.
Once you're in the page, all ofthat might be shadowing.
It might be offering to do aproject.
It might be doing some pro bonowork.
We certainly both done that tolearn how to coach you end up
(19:42):
doing pro bono coaching to getyour experience, but once you've
got your experience, You knowwhat it feels like to be a coach
and you go from there.
Other examples are things likevolunteering.
Volunteering is probably myfavorite.
I think it's the thing that if Ilook back on my own career, I
have never a volunteeringexpedience has never gone
(20:05):
without some thing coming out ofit.
It's just, you get so much fromdoing it, but you access a world
temporarily very few commitmentsthat you wouldn't normally have
access to, but you bring yourskills and your energy and you
give something.
And in return you meet a newbunch of people and you often
get new opportunities.
And I think people don't realizevolunteering and talk about
(20:26):
scale can go all the way from,being the marshal at the park
run.
Up to, sitting on a voluntaryboard and an almost everything
in between
Matt Garrow-Fisher (20:35):
following up on that point about
volunteering, I had a one of myguests, Luke Mickelson, he
worked in sales and he startedbuilding beds for kids, for his
local community.
It was volunteering to do that.
And because, and he justrealized he got so much
enjoyment from doing that.
Spare time.
And w I think he led his boyscout group to help him out.
And then his community startedhelping him out.
(20:57):
Then it got bigger and bigger,and it got to this kind of huge
organization that then thenational, and he had to make a
decision of, should I just dothis charity or should I quit my
six-figure sales job?
And.
He realized that actually that'swhat he wanted to do.
And he, in a way it was atransition of prototyping and it
(21:18):
gradually got bigger and biggeruntil he just knew that was the
decision he had to make.
Fiona Reith (21:22):
I think that's the point.
I'm really good point that youmake designing your life is once
you've got into the rhythm ofit.
You actually, for me, I lookedback and I thought, look,
there's all the times when I diddesign my life, I made
intentional decisions based onwhat mattered to me on really
strong evidence.
And they worked out and thereare other decisions that didn't
work highly that becauseprobably I didn't think of it.
(21:43):
So then as you go forward, it'sit.
The whole idea is that it'sbuilding your way forward.
It's not necessarily thesolution to two.
It could be, you could come toit in crisis.
But it would actually become away of doing things and that's
definitely what it is for me.
And then I think it's aboutpeople can then they they might
take an interim job.
So if I think about, clientsthat I've been working with, we
(22:06):
might decide that taking aninterim job whilst they retreat
or vice, they volunteer for thelonger term goal, because you've
got to, you've got to build upexperience, particularly if
you're making a complete careershift.
It's that actual, really the,not one of the nubs of career
coaching and people come to youand they really want to do some
(22:26):
things very different, and theybelieve they have the
transferable skills, but theyhaven't tested out in any way.
And therefore testing it outalso.
Adds evidence to your portfolio.
So instead of saying, I think Icould transfer it into this.
You can say, I can show you thatI can transfer it into this
because I interned, theyshadowed, I volunteered,
(22:50):
whatever it was you did.
It can go right up to that scaleof taking a secondment or a, or
an interim job, or, even takingtime out to travel or to layer
and can be part of theprototyping.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (23:06):
What I find quite interesting as well is the
kind of whole concept ofactually when you're
prototyping, when you're doingthese interviews or when you're
doing volunteering or interningyou are building relationships
and, from the informationalinterview stage you're
networking.
And although.
And the informational interviewis the purpose is not to have an
(23:27):
interview and not to ask for ajob actually.
By building those relationships,you are potentially able to
access a hidden job market wheresomeone can contact you in the
future and say, Hey, I rememberthat conversation where you're
interested in this career.
What, we actually have a.
An opening now it's notadvertised, I really liked your
(23:48):
our conversation.
And what would you say to maybeapplying for the job?
How have you found this accessto a hidden job market later on
after this networking for youand for your clients?
Fiona Reith (24:00):
That definitely happens, but it's definitely
happened to me.
My story was that I was in salesfor many years and I always knew
that there was somethingmissing.
And then I have to, I had mykids, I went into education, but
it's really interesting becausethe volunteering that I did both
as a student and when Ialongside my educational job,
they both led to other jobsbecause people know that you've
(24:23):
done this before.
I just had a call today fromsomebody seeing, I know you've
done this.
Do you want to think about doingit again?
So I think, that sort of pieceabout networking.
And it's really funny because Iwas thinking about a lot of my
clients.
Quite often, clients come to meand.
They keep coming, even afterthey've had the offer and the
(24:45):
job.
So the act of opening upprototyping, networking,
whatever you want to call it,connecting with other human
beings, telling your careerstory, being a little bit more
open about what it is you'reactually looking for.
Means that people know whatyou're looking for, what you're
looking for.
So when it comes up, you grabit.
(25:06):
Other people know what you'relooking for.
And so they're thinking of you.
So I have a number of clientswho are working with me and I
think.
The opportunities have come upand they've grabbed those and
we're still working togetherbecause they're not done
designing their life.
And I think the thing would be,we talking very much,about
prototyping today but, designingyour life can become a kind of
ongoing way of thinking aboutyour life and you can use it in
(25:29):
other aspects of your life toimprove your health, to improve
your relationships to decide,whether to move or to stay or to
scale up or retired early.
People, once they've had thatexperience I think the, they
want to keep thinking like that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (25:47):
One question that I have about prototyping is
how do you know when you've doneenough prototyping, but that you
can just make that decisionthat, Hey, this actually now I
think about it, maybe this isthe right career for me, and
I'll give you an example from myown life.
And this is early on.
I did some work experience.
I think it was when I was atschool at high school.
(26:09):
Doing, I think it was, I wasworking for Cisco doing some
kind of it CA computer typework.
And then I was like, I didn'tknow what to do.
University.
I ended up, I said, okay, I didthis work experience for a few
weeks in the computer industry.
I'm going to do a computingdegree at Imperial college.
And maybe I'm gonna, I'm gonnado a career in computing.
(26:32):
Turns out that I really did notlike computing at all.
And I tried to imagine myselfdoing that as a career, into my
undergraduate degree.
And I just hated it.
And I ended up dropping out ofthat university.
And so that's an example ofmaybe not prototyping enough to
know that potential career couldbe for you.
(26:53):
And it was a co it was a costlymistake for me.
I had to change universities.
Wasted.
We're not wasted, but I had ayear in a course that and a
university that I probablyshouldn't have done.
What can people, how can peopleknow that they've done enough
testing and practice?
Fiona Reith (27:08):
Yeah, that's a really great question.
And what you said is reallycommon in the, the book opens up
with people talking about that,studying the wrong thing.
Our system is very much set upon, study a subject.
Instead of study yourself.
So the answer to your questionis in two parts, one the prior
parts of designing your life isyou have to know yourself really
well.
(27:28):
You have to know what's missing.
You have to know what brings youenergy.
You have to know what it is thatyou like doing every day and
where your strengths are.
And yeah.
Yeah.
There's a piece of work to dothere and that we don't often do
before we make a decision.
And I think, yeah, it's quitefunny.
Cause I've got a story about,how much is too much.
(27:49):
I have some clients who I've gotclients in the crease of sectors
who may be journalists orresearchers and they do too many
interviews because they'refascinated by the story.
And then, and I have to bringthem back to.
Yeah.
W what about for you?
What does that mean for you?
Yeah, there's that questioningof oneself, which is what does
(28:10):
it mean for me?
What's that tool to me, I wouldlike more of that, or I wouldn't
like more of that.
What does it mean for me?
And I think that's probablywhere the coaching, I think
benefit comes in.
And when they run the course atStanford, everybody's doing it.
And, while you remember your unidays, there's lots of people
around and everybody wants tochat and you can do it in big
(28:31):
radical collaboration groups.
There's always somebody in thesame situation to talk to, but
yeah.
Once you're into your career.
There isn't really anybody totalk to you and maybe, and your
partner and your friends are alittle bit fed up, hearing you
talk about your career.
And so that's where the coach, Ithink element and or the
collaboration, if you can get asmall group together and to help
(28:53):
you a support group together, ora mentor or somebody else to
bounce your thinking off, andthen you get that support, the
accountability, the reframing.
And just helping you considerwhat it is you took out of those
conversations and experiences.
In my experience, theconversations tend to bring up,
(29:15):
recurring themes and then wedesign an experience.
Or two that he backs that up andthen momentum really takes over.
At that point.
At that point, there's waving atme over their shoulder.
I'm off, I'm going to try this.
And then after that I have aroadmap I'm going to try this
and that all the time I'm goingto be working at that or
improving this.
(29:36):
And once people get that sort ofconfidence in themselves, say
openness to the world and a bitof momentum it tends to move on.
I've done this with the boatand.
I've done this for two years.
I trained two years ago and weare going to do the course,
which is really exciting.
And I've done over two dozenpeople, so like a person a month
for the last two years.
And the, describe it as organicintuitive transformational.
(30:02):
So yeah, I think you do needoutside support.
Otherwise you would get lost inyour own thoughts and you might
interview too much or, just get.
And what do they call it?
Paralysis analysis paralysis.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (30:16):
Yeah, I think, the more information you
collect about yourself andfinding out about careers that
you're, that you might beinterested in, there's a level
that you need to unpack.
She can, you can do some of thatwith journaling, but actually
talking through ideas with.
With a coach, like someonethat's actually trained in being
(30:37):
able to listen, being able toand getting to know you over a
number of weeks or months toactually make suggestions based
on the relationship you have andhighlighting your blind spots.
As you landholders information
Fiona Reith (30:51):
yeah, there's another, they want a second book
and the bill and Dave talk aboutbest theoretical option and your
best doable option.
And so that clients don't fallback into the trap of in theory,
this time's perfect on paper.
This is I've designed my life.
That's the really important bitabout design thinking.
(31:15):
That's why I love it.
You have to take action.
The action can be tiny.
It can be to talk some more orto think some more or to try
something, but you have to takeaction and move forward.
Just thinking in theory, thatwould really be really good for
me.
Isn't enough and it's reallytraining people to see how do I
(31:35):
get more of that into my lifeeasily in a way that suits my
life or my personality and notThey're trying to be some kind
of unattainable person.
But just be you moving towardsthat goal.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (31:48):
Yeah.
And I think that's why I lovethis, the method of design
thinking, because it is a wayto, first of all, identify
problems.
Reframe problems in a way thatyou can actually take action on
that took, let's talk a littlebit about, how, some people
might be stuck in a problem fora long time, but actually there
(32:09):
are methods in order to createmovement with design thinking
like reframing Can you talk alittle bit about that and how
people can actually use that toget unstuck?
Fiona Reith (32:21):
Yeah, I think it was you were leading up to that
before and that whole thingabout.
It's asking yourself goodquestions.
That really is the key to, to,to all of this, but it is quite
difficult to reframe things byyourself.
What do you mean by reframe isto look at them from a different
perspective.
You've just explained reallyeloquently how you now have a
(32:41):
different perspective onsuccessful podcasters.
And it's getting perspective orvantage points for yourself that
are different from the one thatyou have.
There are lots and lots ofexamples eat new.
And this would overlaps withcoaching.
So in the book, they talk aboutdysfunctional beliefs, which is
a little bit harsh.
(33:02):
And, but, and we talk aboutlimiting beliefs in coaching all
the time.
People like me don't do that.
Really what's that about?
So it's about really saying whatis it you're stuck on?
And often we come back to designthinking is it's the idea that
people have this one idea aboutthemselves rather than a broader
(33:22):
idea of all the ways that theycould get involved.
So if people come to me and theywant to do something, that's
really quite, Unique.
The example I always think aboutis I think I'm gonna be talking
to you about this one, just likethe Edinburgh book festival.
Everybody wants to work for theEdinburgh book festival.
The team's tiny.
I actually know someone thatworks on the team.
It's a really small, tight teamand people work there for a very
(33:44):
long time.
And what you want to do withsomebody is really design
thinking is brilliant.
You zoom out and you think whatare all the other things that
would feel like that.
And they could be as diverse asactually, what is it you really
like about it?
If you really dig into what youdo you really like about it?
It's this aspect of her, of it'sthat well, where else won't we
(34:07):
find that and it's going throughand just seeing.
Going back to your point, butthe problem is their perspective
is that's the only thing thatthey really want to do.
They don't like the hate whatthey do now.
And the only thing that's goingto make them happier is to have
that job.
They don't know.
They just think that is a selflimiting belief.
That's what bill and Dave wouldcall an anchor problem.
(34:29):
You've decided that the solutionto your problem.
Is one thing and one thingalone.
And so you can unpick thatreally by zooming right out and
working out, how do you get moreof what it is you imagine that
should be in your actual lifenow?
And so that, that's the kind ofway that we do it on the design
(34:52):
thinking.
The other type of problem thatthey talk about is a gravity
problem.
So that's the thing where peoplethe gravity problem we have
right now is I wish there was noCOVID right.
Okay.
But there's nothing we can doabout that.
That's it.
So we have to design it.
The classic one, I wish thiscompany was more
entrepreneurial.
I wish this local authority wasmore entrepreneurial to work
for.
No, you're in the wrong place.
(35:14):
If the culture is notentrepreneurial, if you've got a
gravity problem, you need totake your entrepreneurial.
And mindset somewhere else wherea, where else might that be?
So it's trying to give adifferent perspective.
And cause we all can get veryone, particularly once you're in
a job or in a sector, in aprofession you're busy.
(35:35):
And so your world becomes quitenarrow and it's broadening out
again before you use the zoomingout and then obviously then you
have to make some decisions tomove forward.
But certainly zooming out beforeyou zoom in.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (35:46):
Yeah, and you can apply this kind of
thinking, not just for careerchange, but actually if you're
unhappy in your job.
And if, for example you feellike your boss is not listening
to you or doesn't, take youropinions into account and so
designing how would you dealwith something like that?
Like a work issue that you wantto overcome it, would that be a
(36:11):
an anchor problem or gravityproblem?
Could you reframe those kinds ofissues?
Fiona Reith (36:17):
Yeah, I think reframing is the way to go
there.
As bill and Dave wrote a secondbook called designing your work
life because actually whathappens with designing your
life?
You don't, people don'tnecessarily rip everything up
and change.
They just, what they learnedthrough that process, that
people just do more of what theylove and that's where things get
better and easier for them.
And they recognize that youdon't always have the kind of
(36:38):
choice to leave.
And I've worked with peopleparticularly in.
And vocations like teaching ormedicine where they really is
their true purpose.
It's just that factors aroundthem are not working for them.
So they aren't prepared toleave.
They have to find a way toreframe or to move sideways, to
(37:00):
look at a different way to.
And whether they decide to, theysay reframe and re-enlist, so
think again about why you dothis, really focus on your
values and why you do it anotherway is to assist slightly.
If you have a little bit ofcontrol over the type of work
that you do more of the stuffthat energizes you and see if
there's a way to delegate the,some of the things that don't,
(37:22):
you might be able to get on aproject or a condiment.
I think a lot of that, again,it's just about.
As you say, it's just aboutperspective and coming from an
outside perspective as well.
What about all these otherthings?
Because staying where you are,you could just see where you
are, but you're really not happywhere you are.
What are the other things thatyou can do?
And I've had really greatsuccess with as I say, both
(37:44):
education and medicine wherepeople it's very stressful work,
but they've really passionateabout it.
And when they dialogue the stuffthat really matters to them,
Some of the things that havebeen burning them out or causing
them difficulty feed a littlebit, it's being really
(38:04):
intentional about what you focuson and why it's so quite
nuanced.
And it is it's quite personal,but it's definitely doable.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (38:12):
Yeah.
I think, especially when peopleare thinking about changing
their careers it might be thatthey just, they have a feeling
that they just hate thisindustry or they hate their boss
or they work, but actuallydefining what the actual
specific problem is of why theydon't like their job often that
can unlock.
Solutions where they actuallylove their job.
(38:34):
And it might be that they havebetter communication with their
boss.
I remember, I think in the bookit said someone was, they
weren't getting any appreciationfrom their boss.
I can't remember the exact casestudy, but.
They re they, they just weren'tgetting any kind of good
feedback and they thought, Ijust want to quit.
I can't stand this.
And they actually asked theirboss am I doing anything wrong?
(38:57):
Am I doing anything wrong?
And that boss shared that whatactually It's not, you it's me.
I've been going through somepersonal problems.
Like I've got some issues withmy marriage and I've actually
been taking it out on you.
And actually I really liked yourwork and I want you to take more
ownership of it.
And it was that it's these kindsof stories that there are ways
around just chucking in yourcareer or your job.
(39:20):
A lot of it's to do withcommunication and a lot of it's
to do with identifyingspecifically what the problem is
and what actions can you take tomove forward with that problem.
And it might be that it might bethe boss says.
No, I just don't like you, inwhich case, maybe then you've
validated your hypothesis andmaybe it is time to move on but
(39:41):
it's this way of thinking thatit can lead into many different
routes, like moving across todifferent functions from
accountancy to marketing.
For example, if you're lookingto.
Go into more creative side orcon as you said, like delegating
tasks to other people to, sothat you do more things that
energize you and that totallychanges your whole experience in
(40:02):
your day.
so obviously you're coachingpeople on design thinking.
How has designed thinking helpedyour own life in terms of how
you approach life now, aftercoming across it.
Fiona Reith (40:15):
Yeah.
It was, that's why I'm sopassionate about it because I
think I was looking for it.
And I I had huge benefits to mein my life.
So I, I think I said before Iworked in sales, I thought I
wanted to do something for me.
More meaningful when thechildren came along, I worked in
education and it was super,rewarding work.
(40:35):
So I'd shifted there.
And then, but then I fell intothe trap of doing the same thing
as I'd done in sales andclimbing the ladder and not
paying so much attention to myown needs.
And I was lucky enough to beworking with a coach.
And we were such a, I guess wewere quitting my motivation.
(40:56):
And then I have this book.
I had two copies of the bookcause I bought two copies, one
for me and one for my husband.
And that's what happens whenpeople discover it, don't let it
become a bit of unrealistic andstart buying the book can
sending it to people.
And I, yeah, I worked throughthe book and for me, I take a
bit of I think I would say bothtimes I've pivoted in my career.
I think burnout inhales issueswhere we're underlying.
(41:21):
And I did.
I've got my copy of the bookhere.
I got it out before we talked.
And I've got my, literally mynotes written and say, as to the
scores, I gave myself as alittle dashboard that you do at
the front and you have to scoreyourself.
Don't they're still on health,love, play and work.
And it was pretty devastating.
(41:41):
And this is the first chapter ofthe book.
And health was really low playwas non-negotiable.
It was negligible and work waskilling me, but I was full of
love for my family, which isquite similar to, I think, and
the example that they give inthe book.
And I decided to put as muchemphasis on my health as I put
on other things and see whathappened.
(42:02):
And that was through reading thebook.
And I started to do the kind ofmicro improvements of my health
and everything else fell intoplace after that.
I think for me reading the book,I then decided to do the course
and I went to California and Imet bill and Dave and the
community of coaches who are allusing this in their practice.
(42:24):
And that was a sort of lifechanging thing for me.
So I sat in that room and Ithought, Oh, I'm going to have
to change my life.
And I, I literally swollen withthe boot call and I did, I came
back to my husband and said, I'mgoing to leave my job.
I'm going to start coachingfull-time.
And he's hang on and say, andthey don't advise you do, he
didn't know that it was coming.
So I left a little bit andeventually finished the work
(42:47):
that I was doing and set up myown coaching practice.
So what I'd been doing before, Ido still do innovation and
education.
But I do like you have aportfolio career, so I do a few
different things and I diddesigned all of that.
Through reading the book andbeing and having a coach, as
well or not that the coach was,we knew about the book, but it
(43:11):
was helping us both with thatprocess.
And then I've taken that kind ofstep further we've Sold up,
downsized changed our lifestyle.
So all to do with the thingsthat matter most health family,
meaningful work.
And so yeah, it for me, it's, Iliterally it changed my life.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (43:30):
Wow.
What a great answer.
I wasn't expecting all of that.
Literally did change your life.
And yeah.
That's what I love about aboutthis way of thinking about it.
Design thinking designing yourlife mentality is that it
doesn't just apply to work.
It doesn't just apply to yourcareer.
It actually, you can use the,this, these principles and
these, this structured thinkingto solve all.
(43:53):
Problems in your life.
So you move forward in smallways, in actionable ways that
that are doable.
And actually, if you continue todo that, you can make
improvements in many differentareas of your life.
And that is that's freeing andthat's liberating.
And
Fiona Reith (44:09):
that's different from sitting stuck thinking I'd
really like to do that big thingover there and never do it.
The reframe is what about doinglots of little things?
That might not take you to,that.
They might take you somewhereelse, but if what's guiding you
and I think that's what the bookat the basis of it, they really
don't.
They decry this idea of worklife balance.
(44:31):
They talk about coherence.
And the fact that your work inlife need to be coherent.
So there are times in your lifelike you did.
And like I did where you have toget out, get a job and earn some
money and get some experience.
And that's the right thing to dowith that stage of your life.
But then there are these pivotpoints, which seem to come quite
naturally in an adult's life,that kind of group in certain
(44:52):
ways where you have to, yourlife stage changes and you need
something else.
And this gives you a really Iwould say it's easy because I've
done it, but it wasn'tnecessarily easy going through
it, but it reduces your feed andyour risk.
It breaks it down into smallbite size chunks.
And it's always coming backabout what really matters to you
and gives you some confidenceand some momentum.
(45:14):
And it's informed by what'sactually happening in the real
world, rather than getting stuckin these sort of swirling
thoughts of what, whatever, whatFinTech and a different path.
What if I, what five was like,then what if I could be better
at this?
Would it change anything andsooner?
I think it really is an amazingbook.
(45:34):
And And, process and, that's whyI'm really glad that you invited
me on talk about it.
And not just that, that, you'veactually read the book and taken
your own sort of steps forward.
And I think, one of the nextthings is certainly the I'm
really keen to do and alwayshave been, is to bring this
philosophy or way of thinkingabout careers.
That's more human centered.
(45:57):
To more people, particularly inthe UK who may not have hair.
Do you know?
Because if you're not adesigner, you're not necessarily
of haired of this.
And even if you are a designer,you've, I've worked with
designers and they think it'sbrilliant because they've tried
to consult on themselves.
The process that they use forwork, that doesn't work, they
need outside inputs.
(46:17):
They need those careerconversations, the experiences,
the support group of mentorcoach or your, or your own
designing your life team.
Yeah, it's I'm really excited.
Friends and I are also workingon a mighty community for later
in the year to help more people.
To use this philosophy really todesign their careers.
(46:40):
I love
Matt Garrow-Fisher (46:40):
it.
I love it.
Before I asked my last question,Fiona how can people get in
touch with you?
Who do you normally work with?
And how can you help them?
Fiona Reith (46:51):
Okay.
I have a website, if you fonareithcoaching.co.uk I'm on
LinkedIn, really active onLinkedIn.
Also there's the designing yourlife website, which is great,
and it profiles all the coaches.
So there's not just me.
There's lots of coaches nowacross the world.
And literally you could workwith any of those coaches,
whichever one.
(47:11):
And had the right chemistry foryou.
So there's the designing yourlife website is definitely worth
the loop because there's somedownloadable free resources on
there as well.
Upcoming events, people canlearn more about the process for
me.
I tend to work with.
People tend to come to me at twosuch of critical life stages and
kind of late twenties, earlythirties, late forties.
(47:34):
And those are the two stageswhere they've either maybe go
into something that they realizeisn't working, or they've been
doing something for a long timeand they know that for the next
phase of their career, theywould really like a redesign.
And so those are my kind of twotypes of clients.
My clients come from.
All different sectors.
As I see, I have worked withdesigners, but I've also worked
(47:55):
with teachers and people inmedicine and education.
Lots of people in tech becausethey just get it because they
use design thinking processesall the time, but equally people
in finance.
So it doesn't really matter.
It's more about your mindset andjust taking a slightly more
human centered creative.
Probably because the theoreticalapproach hasn't worked for you
(48:17):
like you and I were both seeing,we've both fallen fatal of.
Reading the book and thinkingthe book's going to give you the
answer or speaking to acounselor and thinking, they're
going to tell you what to do.
And this gives you a kind of atool set to to sort it out for
yourself.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (48:35):
I love it.
I love it.
Fiona, my last question, I seeyou as someone that's burning
from within you're living with.
With passion.
You certainly have purpose interms of the work that you do.
And you have balance you, youhave a portfolio career.
You've raised a lovely familyand have a lovely husband as
well.
(48:56):
What's the one thing that's madethe biggest difference for you
to live with passion, purpose,and balance and burn from
within.
Fiona Reith (49:03):
Wow.
That's your biggie.
I should have practice my answerto this one.
I just came off a call with aschool I'm working with and
we're looking at this.
Because I think my real passionsare things like, that sort of
confluence of creativity andinnovation, but also skills for
work.
Cause I really think thateverybody should enjoy.
What they do every day and andthe everybody's got the
(49:25):
potential, everybody's got asuper strength.
And so I just, I've alwaysbelieved that I've always had
that confidence in that.
So I think the thing that's madethe biggest difference for me,
And it was something, one of mycoaches, a couple of coachings,
probably the thing, actually, ifyou think about it, because if I
think about my coaches that I'vehad, and I've been really lucky
(49:47):
and I, you said it about, makinga wrong decision.
I don't think there is a wrongdecision.
Young people come to me and sayone word, a moment.
There isn't a wrong decision.
You always learn everything youdo and everything builds and
everything.
Some of the things I've donethat know inform what, I'm going
to do in future.
There's no such thing as a wrongdecision, but coaching really I
was really lucky in my corporatecareer to experience really high
(50:09):
quality coaching.
And that probably inspired me.
And then the questions of peoplesaying to me what are you doing
now?
Why are you doing it?
And my coach who taught me tocoach and is there my supervisor
saying people see what you do ifyou want to.
But they don't see who you are.
So I was really focused ondoing, achieving succeeding,
(50:32):
outward success, if I'm honest,because that's just what I
thought.
I'd absorbed that idea and hesaw something different and I
shifted from being, very it'sfunny.
I wrote these things down beforewe, we did come on and it was
about, it was all about budgetsand projects and yeah.
Things going quicker and fasterand higher.
(50:53):
And he saw that actually thosesame skills, the listening
skills, the supporting skills,the belief in other people were
actually the things I should beleading with.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (51:02):
I love it.
Getting that outside perspectiveyou don't necessarily know it
yourself, but they though thoseare the things that really shine
in you and that's superimportant to do it.
And I've benefited from thatmyself from coaches, from going
on retreats lots of differentexercises and continue to do so
awesome.
I love that one.
Thank you so much, Fiona, for anamazing interview.
(51:26):
Everyone that the show noteswe'll have all the links to
contact Fiona, the designingyour life book and website for
you to check all of that out.
And thank you once again for anamazing conversation.
Fiona Reith (51:39):
Thank you.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (51:41):
I loved how Fiona's life completely
transformed.
As a result of discoveringdesign thinking, she changed
careers and went full time intocoaching downsized our house.
Transformed her health andchanged her lifestyle.
In such a positive way.
I totally encourage all of you.
Burned from within is listeningto this to go check out the
(52:03):
book.
Designing your life by billBurnett and Dave Evans.
They also have another bookcalled designing your work life,
which is not so much aboutcareer change, but how to make
changes within your career orjob to feel happier and more
fulfilled.
Both are full of practicalexercises that have been tried
and tested on.
(52:24):
Thousands of people around theworld, as you would expect from
Stanford university professors,all the details of these
resources are in this episode,show notes.
So make sure you check them out.
If you enjoy this episode.
Go right ahead and leave areview for this podcast.
By going to rate thispodcast.com forward slash burn
(52:45):
from within that's rate, thispodcast.com forward slash burn
from within and stay updatedwith more inspiring interviews
by hitting the subscribe buttonnow on your player for this
podcast.
Until next time.
Live with passion, purpose, andbalance and burn from within.
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