Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (00:28):
In this episode, I reflect back on key
points my guests have sharedabout their career changes, and
shed light on patterns I'venoticed and how you can use this
collective knowledge andexperience practically in your
own change journey, whether youwant a career change or bigger
lifestyle changes.
(00:48):
The first point I wanted to talkabout is turning points.
And the moment you realise youwant to change.
And I share some clips fromguests on when they realised
they wanted to do somethingdifferent with their life.
First up, I have a clip from myinterview with Phil Evangelou
who left a high-pressure legalrole in a startup in London to
(01:11):
pursue a portfolio career withmore freedom to work remotely
and focus on his passionprojects such as setting up a
charity called Kupendo Kidsdonating toys to poor children
in Africa.
Here he discusses the time herealised when he wanted to
change.
Phil Evangelou (01:27):
so I think I got to the stage where, yeah, I put
my own interests below my job'sinterests.
And then, eventually, you know,you get to a point where you
feel a little bit disconnectedfrom the real world.
because you're so focused onachieving these career goals and
these goals of the businessyou're working for, that you
(01:49):
start to forget about yourpersonal goals and your own
personal development.
So, yeah, that's, that's, that'swhat I was feeling towards the
end of my four years stint.
in that I pressure your job.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (02:06):
In this next clip, I asked Dai Manuel, who
spent 17 years building an 8figure national fitness business
across Canada, about the momentshe realised he wanted to change:
Dai Manuel (02:17):
I learned a lot, but after 17 years, Matt, I knew it
was time for change, you know,and just because my gut told me
that.
I had this feeling.
I was not feeling satisfied.
I was not excited to go intowork anymore.
I wasn't even excited to havethose type of conversations with
my teams, with my suppliers.
(02:38):
I just, everything becameharder.
And you know, if I back it up acouple years, probably closer,
you know, a couple of yearsbefore getting to the 17 year
Mark, more like 18 monthsactually might I had gone
through a period of time where Ihad my Jerry McGuire moment.
You remember at the beginningwhere he stays up all night,
writing in his manifesto, writeabout how he wants to change the
(03:02):
industry and everything that hesees, and he sees this, this
paradigm shift needed.
Right.
And, uh, I had the same sort ofexperience, uh, you know, I got
to a point where I was feelingquite burnt out.
So, um, My partner and I agreed.
I'd take a break for a fewweeks.
And I flew from Vancouver toToronto to see family and just
really decompress and just notthinking about work.
(03:24):
And, uh, of course, when you trynot to think about work, you
start thinking about a lot ofother things that, that you may
be interested in.
And so I sat down and I wrote amanifesto.
My personal manifesto, uh, whichincorporate a lot of things.
I wanted to aspire for my ownpersonal life, but also where I
envisioned our company going andwhere I thought there may be
opportunities and, and thingsthat would get me excited, you
(03:48):
know, to get me re-engaged toget me wanting to recommit to
this business, you know, to thiscareer path.
Long and short of the story, mypartner never read it, then read
it.
You know, we never really had adiscussion around it.
It was a, it was sort of just ablip.
(04:10):
And I saw it at that point.
I felt really, I don't know,disconnected and just
disappointed.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (04:18):
You see, a lot of times, when things aren't
feeling good or working out howyou hoped in your career or
business, there is amisalignment between your
personal goals and your careergoals.
When you don't correct thatimbalance, or realise that your
career and personal goals are ontwo different paths that might
never cross, or perhaps younever will have the time or
(04:39):
flexibility to work on your ownprojects, that is where internal
conflict, and feeling bad,frustrated, empty and other
negative emotions kick in.
Without realising this andbecoming consciously aware of
it, you might channel this intobehvaiours to block out these
feelings, such as working more,or other unhealthy behaviours
(05:04):
that can lead to addiction suchas excessive alcholic, drugs,
video games, porn,over-exercise, etc.
So take a moment now, andreflect.
What are the personal goals youwant to achieve in your life?
(05:27):
Perhaps this next clip of SebTerry's realisation of what he
actually wanted in life helps toclarify and make sense of the
success he has had sincepursuing 100 goals to achieve in
life to make him happier andsmile: How did you decide Seb to
make such a big change to startcreating a list of a hundred
(05:48):
things to do before you die?
That will make you smile and behappy then to travel around the
world to make this list cometrue.
I mean.
You know, wasn't that really outof your comfort zone.
And where did, where did thatdecision come from after
drifting for so long in life
Seb Terry (06:05):
No, it was a, this is the crazy thing.
It was such a large contrast tothe way I'd been living, but it
was easiest decision I evermade.
And it was purely because in amoment of complete raw
authenticity, if you will, Ijust realized I wasn't happy.
And I just thought about it andit dawned on me ever so clearly,
like, like, you know, not to tryand make this sound dramatic,
(06:26):
but at the same time, it kind ofis.
I just realized for me, at leastall I wanted was to be happy.
That is it.
That was it.
And so, yeah, I just madedecisions that would allow that
to happen.
And so it was easy.
I mean, it sounds drastic.
I pulled myself out of a verynormal way of living like left
Australia.
I said goodbye to friends andfamily.
(06:48):
I.
I walked away from a businessthat had made no money at that
point, but went on to make moneyfor other people.
I mean just life is so it shouldbe simple.
If we had all boil down thething that we just truly, truly
one, and I dare say that beinghappy is ultimately what we all
want.
We just want to feel good if weknew how to feel good.
(07:08):
And we knew what the steps wereto get to that point, we will
all do it.
And it's easy.
It just is.
And so I, yeah, I dunno.
I want to be able to say, well,no, I'm special and I've worked
out a formula on how to behappy.
No, I didn't.
I just realized certain things Ithought I could do to make
myself smile more and I pursuedthem and.
The offshoot of that is ofcourse that it's had a big
(07:30):
ripple effect, but, you know, inthe, in the first instance it
was, it was just that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (07:35):
What things do you want to do in life that
would make you smile more?
How can you prioritise your timeto do these things?
In how many ways can youincorporate some of these things
into your career path?
How can you incorporate some ofthese things into your
lifestyle?
What do you need to change fromwhere you are now in life to do
(07:59):
more of these things you havelisted that would make you smile
more?
Remember, some things are out ofyour control of course.
Going travelling might make yousmile, yet if you are in a
lockdown like many countries areat the moment including the UK,
travel is pretty difficult,right?
(08:19):
So whenever you want to dosomething but you are not able
to do that thing that is out ofyour control, ask yourself the
question, for what purpose do Iwant to do this?
E.g.
For what purpose do I want totravel?
My answer to that question is toconnect with people, learn about
(08:40):
different cultures, seebeautiful scenery, be in nature,
etc.
Knowing this structure, if I amin a lockdown in my own country
right now, in how many ways canI fulfill these purposes of
connecting with people, learningabout different cultures well I
could maybe start an online meetup on Zoom with people from
(09:04):
around the world that is alanguage or culture exchange, or
join an existing one.
Perhaps you could do an onlinecourse in nature photography, so
when your lockdown is lifted,you can appreciate nature in a
new way.
The possibilities are endless toserve a purpose.
(09:29):
Sometimes, you might havestarted out in a company or
business, and had a certain setof values that were being met.
Over time, perhaps years or evendecades in a career or role,
your organisation's values havechanged, the people around you
have changed, and certainly youhave changed and so have what's
(09:51):
important to you now.
Maybe even the externalenvironment and events have made
the environment you now work instressful, toxic and unenjoyable
it's not the place orenvironment you originally
signed up for, This is certainlythe case in a clip I'm going to
share with you now of MaxVishnev what led you to to walk
(10:15):
away from wall street.
Right, right.
Great question.
I had this nice job.
I was dressed in businesscasual, I had a good salary,
benefits.
So I did that for several yearsand then got transferred to a
fancy trading desk in TimesSquare, which for me was, you
know, first time in my life Iworked in a skyscraper in the
middle of of it all right.
(10:35):
And the, the madness that'stimes square.
And I was sitting with these hotshot traders and so I was like
the operations manager on a bigtrading desk and it traded a lot
of confusing products thateventually led to the housing
crash and the, the globalfinancial crisis.
I was making a lot of money atthe time and I thought, man,
this is cool.
(10:55):
But then I also saw what happensonce the bubble burst, right?
The environment got really toxicand really negative very
quickly.
There were rounds of layoffs,there were the rumor mill was
turning about who's going to getlaid off, how the bonuses are
basically gone and what bank isgoing to fail next.
So this was 2000 so you know,Lehman brothers collapsed fall
of 2008 there was a dominoeffect.
(11:17):
The rest of the 2008 washorrific.
My company at the time, MorganStanley, we barely survived as
an independent bank.
We were going to go down to,there's some last minute
basically rescue efforts.
So we made it, but then I waslike, man, I got to get out of
here.
And the seeds were planted.
Like basically that fall withthe collapse of Lehman brothers.
I was so stressed out at work,my stress level just spiked and
(11:39):
I, you know, it was reallyaffecting my quality of life and
I was like, I don't want to behere.
You know, at the time I was 28and I was like, I gotta get
outta here.
You know, what's, what am Idoing here?
What's the primary driver?
Money, right.
And the status symbol of workingon a trading desk at Morgan
Stanley.
But at the end of the day, isthis something I want to keep
(12:00):
doing?
And the answer was no.
So what is the environment likeyou are working in now?
How has your day-to-day workchanged since you started and
when you were enjoying work?
How have the people changed?
In a good way or bad way?
(12:20):
Are the reasons you got into thejob or career no longer
attractive for you or importante.g.
the promise of lots of money andfancy offices might now not be
so alluring once you've had thisalready, particularly when
you've got used to it.
The shiny new objects might notbe so shiny anymore.
(12:41):
Sometimes your own circumstanceschange.
You might have had kids andstarting a family can certainly
over time change your prioritiesand what you are looking for in
your life and career, oftenmeaning more balance and perhaps
flexibility in work is craved.
Patrck Ryder shares in this cliphis situation of being in a
(13:04):
senior global role for manyyears, connected 24/7 to his
company, and the effect it hadon his physical health, his
mental health and the knock-oneffect it had on his
relationship with his wife andkids:
Patrick Ryder (13:16):
if we just look at the section of nearly eight
years when I was doing themobile tech work, when I was
based in London, And at the timewith my wife and a new baby, as
well as a slightly olderdaughter, And I was commuting,
on a daily basis from sorry toLondon, which at the time was
very difficult because of trainstrikes and various other
(13:37):
issues.
So it was something like threeand a half hours a day,
commuting With trains beingcanceled all the time.
You never knew what was comingone day to the next, not a
particularly sympathetic managerin London.
that person was based muchcloser to the office and
therefore I ended up having tochange my working hours.
(13:58):
but the stress continued andobviously on top of all that,
you know, not getting home so8:00 PM every night having left
at 6:00 AM, and then childcareand kids and all the rest of it.
So, That kind of was alleviatedwe're moving to Hong Kong, which
is, a very much morestraightforward set up, the
pressure's remained very similarif not more.
(14:21):
it was at that point after ayear in Hong Kong, this is 2017,
2018.
It became clear to me and mywife and those around me that
this was not the right thing forme anymore.
after 22 years of that,corporate life, there was having
detrimental effects on me as aperson and therefore my family
(14:45):
or my relationships, my qualityof life.
The list goes on the upsideswere fading and the downsides
were very, very negative anddamaging.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (14:56):
what were the kind of hardest points
about.
Corporate life what were thetoughest things where you
thought, wow, I can do this
Patrick Ryder (15:04):
anymore.
I think there's probably threeareas, you know, physical,
mental, and emotional.
I'm sure that resonates withlots of people.
So, but for me, it's welldocumented what the impact of
stress can be in from acorporate.
Day to day for me physically, Iknew something was badly wrong
(15:25):
when I ended up losing somethinglike 15 kilos in eight weeks
without actually changing mydiet at all.
And without exercising a greatdeal.
So I was still eating burgers, Alot of Asian, Chinese food,
obviously.
but losing 15 kilos is a hugeamount of weight in a very short
space of time.
(15:46):
So that was one indicator.
I think that got me seriouslyworried.
pure mental stress I've foundthat impossible to turn off, the
global nature of the business, Iwas running meant that, when
Asia closes America opens andyou're somewhere in the middle
And the nature of the connectedbusiness Wells nowadays means
(16:08):
that you need to be seen to beavailable 24 seven response
times and measured.
There are metrics in place.
There are deals that need doingSo it's kind of the fair and
greed.
Perspective in its worst form,not greed from my parts, but
greed from my company's part andthe business world in general is
(16:28):
part it's about making money.
Otherwise they'd be charities.
but certainly you end up in astate of high anxiety.
that you are either missingstuff or that you failed at
staff or that the perception ofyou is that you're not putting
your weights and things likethat.
So that manifested itselfcertainly physically for me.
(16:48):
the second thing was, mentally.
the mental impact was verynegative.
it turned me into a veryintroverted person, and was the
total wrong kind of focus.
the third part of things, myrelationship, those all
suffered.
as a result of that is I wasn'tthe family guide that I should
have been, that I wanted to be,that, I could have been.
(17:12):
and I think if you put all thosethree things together over time
and you keep grinding it out,then something's going to break.
And I felt that it.
Treaty dead within me.
And the impact on my marriagealso was starting to be
extremely detrimental as well.
Even though my wife is a verysort of a senior executive with
(17:34):
a lot of responsibility andpressure.
I just simply wasn't getting anykind of fulfillment out of
business success and everythingelse was suffering as a result
of that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (17:46):
Sometimes external events out of our
control happen which affect usand shake us up so much that we
start to question what is reallyimportant in life.
Prime examples of these externalevents are a death of a loved
one or a painful breakup, thelatter being the case for Kim
Orlesky, which prompted her toreevaluate her life and
(18:09):
successful sales career atAmerican Express in Canada and a
moment of realisation in theshower triggered a series of
decisions that changed her lifedramatically in the space of
just 6 weeks:
Kim Orlesky (18:23):
at the time I was doing really well with my career
as American express.
it was a lovely work from homeposition and I just got to a
point where, I just wasn't surethat this was where I wanted to
live my life.
I was inspired after a breakupbecause I was like, Aw, man.
I'm like, what else am I goingto do with my life?
And I'm like, this is reallywhat I thought I was going to
(18:45):
do.
And I was in the shower the nextday after this terrible breakup.
And I asked myself, I'm like,what do I want to do?
And it was like, almost likethis voice came inside my head.
It was like, just go travel.
And I thought, I'm like, whynot?
I'm not married.
I have kids.
I would leave a career and, thiswonderful house and everything
that I bought, but who cares.
(19:06):
a career as a career and you canfind more of them and a house is
a house and you can find more ofthat.
And, there's only so many daysin our lives where we can
actually go out and travel.
And so I made the decision andall of a sudden everything went,
moved incredibly fast.
Like lightning speed for themoment I made that decision to
the moment.
Yeah, I was, I had the housesold and it was on my first leg
(19:28):
of my trip was maybe six weeks.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (19:31):
Holli Massey, a highly-successful TV
and advertising producer fromMelbourne, Australia, on paper
had it all.
But something didn't feel quiteright and she started a quest to
explore what was the reason forthat feeling that kept bugging
her:
Holli (19:49):
this career of just working with loads of different
companies, loads of differentcreative people, directors and
producers.
And, yeah.
Keeps me off on this kind ofworking in advertising, which
was fantastic because.
I made a fair bit of money outof it, and it's really well
paid.
but I suppose during that timethat I was doing it, there was
(20:12):
always something that justdidn't feel right.
And I used to say to myself, youknow, you've got a good job.
You earn good money and workingwith amazing people.
Like what's your problem, youknow, stop winging, like, you
know, you're lucky, you know,all this kind of stuff.
So I sort of went into that sortof power play within my mind
(20:36):
quite a lot.
yeah.
And I got to travel, you know,so I got to sometimes because I
made enough money, I'd go ontravel for a year or something.
So I'd have a year traveling.
And, and so it was the perks ofeverything, you know, but.
It was just something that justdidn't feel right.
And it took me a little while tokind of put my finger on was,
and I think really ethically, Ijust felt, I always felt really
(21:02):
connected to the people feltreally connected to who I was
working with.
I loved the conversations and Iloved everything that was
creative about it.
But yeah, when someone would askme what I did for a job, I found
it really difficult to tell themthat I.
Produced TV commercials.
I felt like it was.
(21:22):
Adding to the problems of theworld.
I was kind of, you know, the,the consumerism and the, the
imbalance in, in life and thatsort of paradigm of fear based
paradigm that we live in.
I just, for whatever reason, Ijust really kind of carried that
(21:43):
with me and it felt really,didn't, it just didn't suit who
I was.
So.
I went on this sort of quest, Isuppose, to try and balance that
out and, found a project inKenya, in the developing world,
in developing countries.
I wanted to con did some travelthrough those developing
countries to find some projectsthat I could support through the
(22:05):
film industry.
And, and then that kicked me offinto kind of where I am now.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (22:11):
I played this next clip on a previous
episode called Big Decision NoRegrets, and want to play it
again from Vimala Seshadri,about feeling empty and
unfulfilled even when on thesurface everyone else sees you
are financially successful, havegreat hobbies, travel, etc, just
like Holli shared too.
(22:32):
Vimala's approach to finding outwhy she was feeling so empty and
unfulfilled was to sit withherself in silence for 5 whole
days:
Vimala Seshadri (22:41):
So, at that point in my life, I was, working
in a very, very, senior level.
Job.
And I was only 28 and I reallyenjoy the job.
I was traveling.
I was going first class.
I had, financially I wasextremely secure.
But I would come home every dayand feel like, okay, what's
(23:04):
next?
And that has been happening fora few months.
And I'm scared a lot of pressurefor me from my parents to
consider marriage.
And it just did not seem rightfor me.
And I didn't know why.
And I was in there like justlimbo phase.
And I came back.
(23:24):
I remember very clearly I cameback from horseback riding and.
Just said, why am I doing this?
And I started crying and it ledto three days of just nonstop.
I just need to know why I'm onthis earth.
And that deep sense of purposeand I needed to know.
And so I actually stepped out ofmy world and went into prayer
(23:50):
and just, just sat with myselfin the woods of Michigan and
just sat there and decided I wasgoing to figure this out.
I had a lot of supports aroundme, but I was silent for five
days.
And just when within, and theonly thing that I can, you can
think about that only thing thatreally came up visually and even
(24:10):
auditorily at that point waswork with kids.
Hmm, and I wasn't working withkids at all.
So it was a big surprise for me.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (24:16):
Right.
So, I mean, what was obviously,but you burst into tears, you,
you were upset about somethingand that is what prompted you to
reflect from a thing.
What do you think, was it abouteither your life or your career
that made you so upset?
Was there certain aspects that,you know, just weren't one
(24:38):
sitting with you?
Well, what was it in particular?
Vimala Seshadri (24:41):
I think, I just felt like I felt empty.
I was, I was like a robot.
I was just going to work doingmy thing, doing it.
Well, it wasn't about not beingsuccessful at the time I was
doing it well, but it wasn'tfulfilling.
So I fulfilled it with, youknow, going shopping, you know,
horseback riding.
And I was, going out withfriends, but, you know, The next
(25:04):
step.
Everybody told me it was, well,once you get married, then this
will all just kind of resolveitself.
And I'm like, I don't want to, Idon't know if that was right for
me, it didn't feel right for meat the time, but that real sense
of what, you know, what's the,what's the big deal is I find if
I do this work or if I don't dothis work, it's really not gonna
make an impact in the world.
(25:26):
And I think that's when I reallykind of felt miserable that I
could actually live on thisplanet and die and never really
make a difference or neverreally know if this is, this is
what I'm supposed to do for therest of my life.
Really know it in my heart.
(25:48):
there was a book, I think, thedeath of Ivan Ilitch, and at the
end of the book, he says, hegoes.
What if, you know, I didn't dowhat I was supposed to do while
I was here.
And that those kinds of thoughtskept coming to me again and
again, saying, is this, this,this all life is.
And everyone around me seemshappy in going to work.
(26:10):
You know, having that, thatlife, it just, something just
didn't sit right with me.
Right.
And yeah.
Right before I had this job, Iwas working in the university
where I had students and I hadpatients.
And I think that was verypurposeful for me.
Right.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (26:26):
Sometimes looking back on your career or
life and remembering when youwere most happy, when work or
certain activities you did werefulfilling and meant something
to you, can be incredible cluesto figuring out how to
renavigate your life or careerto be incorporating more of
these elements into your lifenow.
Sitting in silence for five dayscould be one way of uncovering
(26:49):
what a persistent negativefeeling is trying to tell you a
message from your unconscious todo something different.
Holli found her insights tochange and actually quit her job
after an ayahuasca ceremony andon returning to film an
advertisement for a global brandin the slums of India, her inner
conflicts were brought past herthreshold and she left her job
(27:13):
after finishing that project, asshe had the realisation that her
work brought an ethicalmisalignment that she was no
longer prepared to put up with
Holli (27:24):
I drove down to this ceremony on Friday.
I got back on the Monday andduring the ceremony, it was
just, yeah, quite a, I was verynervous about it cause I'd heard
all different things.
and during the ceremony, it wasprobably one of the most
nurturing experiences of mylife.
But the most, the biggest kindof slap in the face I probably
(27:47):
had ever had in my life as well.
I found out what my issue was.
I wouldn't know what the veryclear intention and, came out
with a very, went in with acertain perspective on life and
came out with.
Obviously the same person it'slike Dave, but I saw everything
(28:10):
very differently.
so I, yeah, I kind of, I got on,I came home, I got on a plane
the next day and I flew toIndia.
And after that experience, andobviously it takes you into a
whole other realm.
I mean, it's like, you're not inthis world.
And I went to India and we wentout to the location of where we
(28:35):
were filming, which was a slumin Mumbai.
And it was that moment.
I still remember it walking,getting out of the car, just
coming out of this Iowascaexperience with this whole kind
of new perception of going okay.
I know what my problem is.
I'm not listening to myself.
I'm not loving myself.
I'm not honoring who I am as aperson and walking into the slum
(29:00):
and, standing there just seeingall these amazing, beautiful
people.
and that was my moment where Iwas like, I can't do this.
I can't, I just can't do this.
I can't be this person anymore.
I want to work with thesepeople.
I want to work for the bettergood of these people.
(29:20):
I don't want to walk in herewith a brand and molting me and
be in dollar brand in this slumto sell what it was we were
selling now.
I don't directly sell thatstuff, but I.
You know, it's not like theclients, my responsibility or
anything like that, but just thevery act of me being there and
(29:43):
being a part of that team and,you know, producing that
commercial, just, it just mademe go that's it.
That's it.
I can't do this.
And that was my moment.
So it got through job and, itwas great.
And, I came back to Melbourneand, We, my business partner and
(30:04):
I have, weren't seeing eye toeye really very much.
Maybe that it's something to dowith it.
I don't know.
I mean, we'd worked a hell.
We'd worked a lot that year.
It was just, we went, you know,we're at burnout mode really,
and just can't do this anymore.
So yeah.
I left.
(30:26):
I left.
And then eight weeks later, myhusband and my kids and I were
on a plane and we came toIreland and a whole lot has
changed.
So every month, every week,every week, every month, every
year, has just been a buildingblock of getting Being who I am
and being real with what I do.
(30:48):
And.
never, ever, ever looking back.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (30:55):
it's this concept of identity that has
always fascinated me.
In fact, much of the work I'vebeen involved in in neuro
linguisitc programming and othercoaching methodologies centres
around what makes up one'sidentity.
A helpful framework I've foundto explore this and other key
steps on a ladder in career andlife change and correcting
(31:16):
internal misalignments and innerconflicts is called'The
Neurological Levels of Change',a model refined by NLP developer
Robert Dilts.
I may explore the usefulness ofthis model in career change in a
future episode, but in themeantime, I will include links
in the show notes that listenerscan use to start to understand
(31:38):
and use this concept.
The premise is that we have 6different levels we are
operating on at any one time.
When we have a misalignment atone of these levels, it is often
when we make a change at thelevel above that inner conflicts
can be sometimes instantlyresolved.
(32:00):
The levels start at environment,then behaviour, then skills or
capabilities, then values, thenidentity and the highest level
is purpose.
So earlier in the episode Ispoke about when there is a
conflict at the environmentlevel such as a national
lockdown, this restricts beingable to do a love of travel
(32:22):
which is also a conflict at thevalues level if someone values
adventure.
Recognising the purpose oftravel, to connect with people,
be in nature, etc, we canexamine each level below purpose
and assess what changes we canmake here to make improvements
to how we feel inside, even whenthere are things going out at
(32:46):
the environment level that areout of our control.
Often with careers, when someonewants a career change, there is
a conflict at their identitylevel, and often this is
realised much later on in beingunhappy for a while, as was the
case for Malia Griggs who tookover a year off work due to
(33:07):
extreme burnout, and during thistime off made these extremely
valuable realisations forherself and I hope also, you the
listener (33:17):
you raised quite an interesting point about, you,
you're not your job, you're notyour job.
I speak to quite a few peoplewho, particularly when they're
in transition in between jobs,some people that they feel lost
when they're not in a job.
And, I spoke to a friend who's.
He was sitting at home, he wason gardening leave, in
transition.
(33:37):
And he just didn't know what todo.
He's I don't know what to dowith gardening leave is when you
wait, when you're in between twojobs and your period in between
and in Europe at school.
Malia Griggs (33:51):
yeah.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (33:54):
And, people, don't, some people don't know
who they are, like when they'renot in a job.
it's like an identity issue.
What, how, who were you when youwere in that job and who are you
now?
Malia Griggs (34:06):
Yeah, I thought of myself as there being like a
work Malia and then just homeMalia.
And what I, especially when Iwas promoted, I remember
thinking I can't command a teamwhere everyone.
I look younger than everyone,I'm tech, I'm actually older,
but so I went out and I rememberI bought clothing that I felt
made me look more like a boss.
(34:28):
and I came to work and some ofmy coworkers made fun of me for
a while, but then they got usedto it.
I had, I bought a pair of heelsthat I put under my desk and I
bought just like fancierclothing than the flannel shirts
I was wearing to work with my,just my jeans.
and that kind of helped me.
Take on this mindset, to put onthat costume.
But then I think that costumeextended beyond just being a
(34:51):
costume to a degree.
so I felt like I was actingaway.
I mean, there are elements of myhumor that were there and, I
like injecting humor and, intomy candor work, but, I just, I
felt like the goop, the Greeley,the true, the truly goofy
essence of myself was gone.
the things that I don't knowthat made me creative were gone.
(35:15):
I used to love it writing and Ido love writing, but I used to
really love writing and thenphotography and, painting and
drawing and acting.
And I was into improv, for abit.
And I wanted to do stand up andall of these things, I felt like
I didn't have time to do becauseI was, my job was just.
Taking up so much of my energy,the time that, a lot of nights I
(35:36):
had to be home, if there was adebate or any sort of political
event or for is the Oscars orwhich, again, this is part of,
par for course, but then whenyou add on the insanity of
having mass shootings all thetime, it's just becomes, and
then the impeachment, it's justa lot, it's a lot for any
journalist and it's a lot forsomeone who's covering social
(35:57):
media.
And then on top of that socialmedia is more than it sounds.
yeah, they're the, I think theessential parts of me were the
things that I loved when I was alittle younger and then couldn't
didn't have any space for it.
so I guess, yeah.
Now I have more time.
I have lots of time for that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (36:18):
It's often when we revisit what makes us
happy, purposeful, passionatefrom earlier in our lives that
we start to uncover a sense ofwho we really are The only way
to really know who we really arethough and prove the theory is
to test things out.
And it's this testing thatPatrick Ryder did when he took a
(36:38):
year off all work to figurethings out.
He volunteered in teaching andfollowing his curiosity, got
feedback from family, friends,people in the industry he was
testing getting into for himteachers which proved an
invaluable use of time inproving it was the right new
path for him:
Patrick Ryder (36:59):
Happiness is very hard to measure, but is much
more visible to me anyway.
that's a positive purpose.
helping people to progress andgrow.
And I keep using that wordprogression, but it is super
important.
that's kind of how thatmanifested itself.
and it was blatantly clear thatI needed to do something totally
different.
(37:20):
So I knew that I'd always likedteaching and coaching.
and my son was at a preschool inHong Kong.
My daughter was a, the Britishinternational school in Hong
Kong and I decided to go and dosome volunteering.
so at least I'd be doingsomething constructive.
Whilst I figured out whateverthe plan was going to be for me.
and so I started volunteeringboth with the three year olds
(37:42):
and the eight, nine, 10 yearolds, and absolutely loved it
and, really got into it andended up doing everything from
pirate dress up days to sensoryplay days being covered in
lasagna.
Taking three year olds out inthe mountains in Hong Kong and
how to build stuff with rocks toteaching my set those aside, the
(38:04):
older class about photographyand stuff like that, which I
really love.
And just organizing schoolfairs, I'm much more good for
the soul stuff than justchurning out metrics and sales
reports on Salesforce.
like man, you know, I can beout.
Building a skate, ramble,something, you know, listening
(38:25):
to a mix or reading a book oranything, you know?
So I thought began tocrystallize the idea of teaching
in my mind.
And that's really where I guessthe testing stage came in and by
testing, I mean, putting thisidea, allowing myself to be
vulnerable and opening up andsaying to select friends, family
(38:47):
members, look, This is where Iam.
This is the idea I have.
What do you think?
And getting their feedback andreally doing a lot of active
listening to that feedback.
my mother-in-law has been aheadmistress at a primary school
in Botswana for 30 odd years.
A lot of our family friends aremy teachers.
(39:07):
For my primary school andsecondary school still, and a
lot of friends are actuallyteachers teaching assistants in
the education system.
And the feedback from them wasresoundingly.
You know, we think you'd make agreat teacher.
We can see that you've got theright kind of skills and nature
and you're that type of personso that, you know, I didn't need
(39:28):
the validation, but it was niceto get it.
you need a sounding board So asa litmus test, that crystallized
it for me.
And it was at that point that Istarted to put together one of
the most important kind ofthing, ethos aspects that I live
by, which my wife kind of taughtme as well as various other
people.
I've met along the way, which isto have a plan
Matt Garrow-Fisher (39:50):
natasha Stanley emphasises this point
about following your curiosity,and not just making a list of
things you are interested in,but actually jumping into trying
things out, testing out newactivities, business ideas,
career paths throughconversations, mini shift
projects perhaps at the weekendor when you have time off, and
(40:15):
getting a sense of if it isreally for you.
Natasha Stanley (40:15):
why can't I just find my thing and master it
and do it really well.
And what I discovered wasactually.
If I, Elizabeth Gilbert talksabout following your curiosity.
And if I just do that, if I gowith the things that are
interesting, me, immerse myselfin it, up to the point that I
need to and want to, and findways to share that with people
(40:40):
that's.
Really, it's not just enough forme.
It fills me up.
I don't get bored.
I don't reach the point where,I'm doing the machine repeating
itself kind of thing.
And some people love that.
Some people love the detail,keeping the machine running, all
of that kind of jazz for me.
It's just like that shiny.
I'm going to go and dive intothat.
(41:01):
Who wants to come with me?
And along the way, if I keepasking myself, like, why is this
important?
What do people need in relationto this thing that interests me?
There is always an opportunityto make a living from it one way
or another.
everything that I do.
Right now does fall under thatkind of umbrella conversation
(41:22):
around helping people do thingsthey never thought were
possible.
I see it every day in my workwith career shifters, people
just look what just happened.
Look what I just did saying welack or yoga.
the first time somebody flies onsomeone else's feet that look on
their face is what I live for.
with this is for you.
I teach people the art andscience of meaningful human
(41:44):
connection.
I have people walking out ofworkshops thing.
Like I never thought that Icould go that deep with somebody
that quickly and not feel scaredor vulnerable or uncomfortable,
falls under that umbrella.
But the more that I go through,so the more I realize.
That kind of happens byaccident.
If I just trust the stuff thatI'm interested in and I manage
(42:06):
eyes by when I look backwards,Steve jobs in his commencement
speech talks about, you can onlyjoin the dots, looking
backwards.
When I look backwards, I seethat theme, but I'm not like I'm
going to go out and help peopledo things that they never
thought were possible.
It's really just me trusting mygut saying, Hey, that looks
cool.
Who wants to come with me?
(42:27):
And that's not the case foreverybody.
some people have a verydifferent approach, a different
mindset, different set of needsthan I do, but there's something
about, we work with an ideacalled the fulfillment sweet
spot.
Which is like a Venn diagram ofthree cars questions.
And we believe that yourfulfilling work lies at the
(42:49):
intersection of those trends,the questions.
So the first one is, whatenergizes me.
So not what am I passionateabout?
Not what's my purpose.
Not even what do I love, butwhat energizes me?
Yeah, wake up in the morning andyou're like, Oh God, I just, I
can't today.
And then there's something thatyou do.
(43:10):
And no matter how tired youwere, when you started, you come
out buzzing and it might be goodthing that you're doing, it
might be the people that you'rearound.
It might be the environment.
Yeah.
And it's the whole picture, butfinding some what energizes you
finding something that you'regood at or that you could get
good at?
(43:30):
and then what will the world payfor?
So for me, I start with the,what energizes me part, cause
I've been in jobs where I wasgood at it and I got paid for it
and I just wanted to stick afork in my eye every morning.
So I start with what energizesme.
I'm like, Oh, this feels buzzy.
I'm going to follow that.
I do a little bit of it.
Oh, I could get good at this,or, Oh, I actually am quite good
(43:52):
at this.
And then, okay.
So what's the problem I cansolve using this.
What will the world pay for?
and that's the way round thatI've found gets results most
quickly.
But the key of all of that is tostart doing it as quickly as
possible.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (44:09):
We examined some really practical ways of
discovering what energises youand what drains your energy, in
taking certain psychometricassessments, particularly ones
backed by lots of science anddata such as Strengths Profile
which I took and discussed witha great coach who took me
through my assessment, ThereseToohey:
Therese Toohey (44:30):
The thing I really love about it is, you
might've mentioned fourdifferent concepts, which kind
of show how much you're becomingenergized versus how much you're
being drained of energy.
So there's realized strengths,unrealized, strengths, which are
things that.
Gave you energy.
They give you energy points.
If you were, and then learnbehaviors and weaknesses or
things that you might Excel atand your boss might say, wow,
(44:54):
you're one of the topperformers.
It does, but it doesn't lightyou up inside.
It actually takes energy awayfrom you and an every day eats
away to the point that you don'twant to do it.
or you want to do it less thanthat.
and that is not a ground for.
moving towards success andgrowth.
it's actually quite theopposite, even though, there's
an illusion of you being veryskilled and a top performer.
(45:15):
I had an example of that When Iwas working in the public
service straight like properly.
I was part of the team that wasdoing the state of the service
report, which is a hugecompendium of where they're up
to in terms of all sorts ofthings.
Writing is not one of mystrengths.
I can write, I've done itmasters.
I know how to deal with it.
I can do it.
I'm reasonably good at it, butit just doesn't give me energy.
So I did the job, I got it done.
(45:37):
They really loved the work thatI did.
And they said to me, the yearturned over to the next year and
they came back to the list.
Listen, you did such a good joblast year.
We want you to do this again.
I just wanted to call up in thefetal position under the desk.
I could do it, but he justdidn't light me up.
And I was diminishing the more Ihad to do his own.
Really wasn't doing the thingsthat I loved, which I could be
more engaged with and moreproductive because I got energy
(45:59):
from them because they mattered.
So yeah, completely one Oh oneexample of you've got a
strength, but no energy from it.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (46:08):
the other big concept that I wanted to
touch on in this episode inparticular and develop further
is the issue of your sense ofidentity in your career and
changing careers.
I explored this further withworld-reknowned coach Jamie
Smart, who also explain thatrealising that none of what
(46:28):
going on in your job, career orworld outside is not causing you
stress or other negativeemotions, but that all of that
is created within you it's aninternal experience.
And once you realise that, itcan be immensely freeing to
focus your energises and changeyour attitude for new levels of
(46:51):
happiness.
Why do you think then that,people that have changing
career?
they're not happy in that job orin that business.
Why do you think they.
Struggle to find a role or anidentity that makes them happy
to see them and is who they arein a sense.
Jamie Smart (47:14):
Well, I, I dunno.
I mean, some people do somepeople don't, but I think there
are a bunch of reasons.
one reason is a lot of timeswhen someone's got a job that
they're good at, for instance,they've got a bunch of track
record with it and they're goodat it.
And so they get kudos for it andthey get paid for it and all
that sort of stuff.
And then they got this thingthat they're inspired to do, and
(47:35):
they got to start from scratchwith that and be not very good
at that's what I had to do whenI decided I was going to be a
coach and a trainer.
I had to be really sure.
I wasn't very good at it when Istarted out.
Whereas my job, I was good at.
I got well paid for when I firststarted coaching, I could hardly
get paid anything.
Cause I wasn't very good at it.
I had to develop my skills andmasters.
So there's that like people likestuff that they're good at and
(47:59):
that they're familiar with andthat they already know how to
do.
But I think, the word you usethe identity people often
they've got a lot of identity ina certain role, that sort of
thing.
and the idea, and I rememberreading, I don't know how true
it is, but, Reading that somemassive percentage of guys guys
die within two years of retiringfrom their job.
(48:22):
Cause all this stuff aboutidentity and purpose and that
sort of thing is wrapped up init.
And I'm like, man, I had therenever want to retire or I know
what I want to make sure I don'thave too much identity
associated with that stuff.
But I think, a lot of timespeople associate or work role
with who they are and what theirvalue to society is.
(48:42):
But also just the thing offamiliar, I've worked with lots
and lots of people around.
A career change.
And a lot of times it's fear ofmaking a mistake, fear of
criticism, fear of not beinggood enough, all that sort of
stuff.
And you don't want one of thebig ones is math.
Fear that they're not going tobe okay if things go wrong, like
(49:04):
you, you and I both know massivenumbers of businesses fail
within the first year ofstarting and massive numbers
fail within the first fiveyears.
So we know that if you want togo and do your own thing, that's
a relatively high risk venture.
And if you want to start a newjob, a new in a new industry or
(49:25):
a new type of career, while thathas a certain amount of risks
associated.
People, people don't like,having to let go of their
perceptions of security.
Cause a lot of people believetheir security comes from their
job or their role or theirperception in the eyes of
others, that kind of thing.
So that's my best guess at it.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (49:47):
so how then would you be confident in making
it as in a big life decision,like career change?
Cause you're
Jamie Smart (49:56):
saying.
certainly when I work withpeople around where we start is
helping people get clear on twothings.
One we've already talked about,which is who they really are.
And the other is where theirexperience comes from.
I give you an example, we'rerecording this in the middle of
(50:17):
lockdown and COVID 2020 and.
Lots of people.
If you'd asked them in a, Idon't know, November or December
of last year, he said, what,how's 2020 looking to you.
They would have said, Oh yeah,I've got a real sense of
certainty and confidence aboutwhat 2020 holds and that sort of
(50:41):
thing.
And then if you'd ask them fourmonths later, they'd be, I feel
very insecure and veryuncertain.
We're actually closer to realitynow than we were four months
ago.
what we have now is the end ofan illusion.
We have the illusion back inlate twenties, 19 when they were
certain that things were goingto go a certain way in 2020,
(51:01):
it's an illusion.
It was never going to be thecase.
This was already in the cards.
so we're actually closer toreality.
if one of the things that.
No, we can all do with gettingbetter at is becoming
connoisseurs of reality ratherthan our own illusions.
Remember, when I, back when Iwas still, I was when I was
(51:22):
still contracting, actually, sothis is like 1999.
And so as day rate contractor ona contract in this company and
the HR, because I was involvedin a mission critical project,
they decided it would make moresense if they could get me in as
an employee.
(51:42):
And they, so they offered me apackage, very attractive
package, director level, salary,car, all this sort of stuff.
I said, no things.
I'm, I prefer to stick withthings as they are for, to have
a contract and the freedom and,income that's associated with
that.
And the HR director, he wasshocked.
He said, well, what about jobs?
(52:02):
Security?
I said, well, there's no suchthing as job security, you know,
as well as I do, you've you'vemade people redundant as part of
your role.
They thought they had jobsecurity, but they didn't.
There's no such thing as jobsecurity.
That's an illusion, it's anillusion.
And he got really flustered.
He said, what would happen if weall thought that way?
(52:24):
It's wow, I don't know.
it's the truth.
It's the truth that the feelingof security.
Can only an always come fromwithin that's the only place
that has ever come from everyfeeling of security you've ever
experienced has being generatedfrom within your psychological
(52:44):
and spiritual properties.
Every feeling of peace andwellbeing has been generated the
same way, every experience oflove and peace and connection.
Came from within same, withevery experience of, anxiety and
worry and all that stuff, too.
It comes from the inside outit's created from within, it
(53:05):
seems like it's coming fromthere.
The stress seems like it'scoming from, the email or the
traffic or whatever it might be.
but it's being generated fromwithin a hundred percent of the
time.
No exceptions.
And so that's worth no.
And if you're wanting to embarkon a new venture, because it
(53:26):
turns out there's a lot ofthings, but you don't need to
concern yourself with once yourealize that, and that frees you
to focus on the things that itis worth concerning yourself
with a w and that it is worthpaying attention to.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (53:41):
My recent guest Jeremy Lipkowitz reflected
on this very point to discusshow our reality is created from
within in this clip and givespractical ways we can start to
change our attitude and realitythrough mindfulness and
meditation:
Jeremy Lipkowitz (54:00):
one of the reasons that those silent
retreats are so powerful is youjust see how powerful the mind
is in terms of creating yourreality.
you can literally be doingnothing, but sitting in a room
having a cup of tea and you caneither be in a state of complete
hell because of what's going onin your mind or complete bliss,
based on how you're relating toyour experience.
(54:23):
And it's all in your mind.
it's so much of the drama thatwe experience is created by
ourselves, created by havingexpectations about where we
should be, or shouldn't be, or,all these things.
It's so great to be, to have thetime to go on a retreat like
that, but you're right.
That most people don't have thespace.
(54:43):
most people don't have the timeand the space to go on a retreat
like that.
There's still so much you can doto start to become aware of
these things.
So developing a consistentmeditation practice,
particularly, I'm a huge fan ofmindfulness, which is this
there's very bare open.
Awareness of what's happening.
There's no goal to mindfulness.
(55:04):
It's really about observingwhat's happening, particularly
inside your experience.
So what's going on in your body.
What's going on in your mind.
And this observation, you startto see what's happening in your
life.
You start to see the way youmight be talking to yourself the
way you might be beatingyourself up, high performers.
(55:24):
So many of us are.
Really vicious, inner critics,right?
We're so nasty toward ourselves.
when you start to see that, yousee how violent you are to
yourself, you just naturallystart to do less of it, but it
requires seeing it first.
So that's one thing is, having aconsistent, meditation practice
(55:46):
or reflection practice, orself-awareness practice of some
sort.
The other big thing that I liketo offer it to the people that I
work with or in some of theworkshops I do is connecting
with people that you reallyadmire from that sense of how
they're living their life.
And for me, this was reallyimportant early on is seeing
(56:08):
people that were living reallygood lives.
They were really fulfilled fromwithin, and you could see it on
their face, the way that theylive.
It wasn't about how successfulthey were.
They had this kind of innerradiance to them and reading
about those people.
for me, I think of, people likethe Dalai Lama or, tick, not Han
(56:31):
or, whoever you want to think ofpeople that have that inner glow
is really powerful because thenyou start to.
your vision of reality starts tocrumble.
if you keep thinking, Oh, I'llonly be happy if I can be a
millionaire and have enoughmoney to retire and go sit on a
beach and drink a margarita andyou see those people and that
(56:53):
they're miserable.
And then you see someone whodoesn't own anything except for
a pair of robes and a beggingbowl.
And they're filled withhappiness and contentment.
You start to realize Oh, okay.
Maybe I'm not doing thingsright.
Maybe I'm focused on the wrongthings here.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (57:09):
This concept of comparing your identity when
you are unhappy in your life andcareer to when you are burning
from within, living life withpassion, purpose and balance is
my final point I wanted tohighlight in this episode.
We go back to episode 1 whereSeb Terry unpacks his valuable
thoughts on this and the effectthis has had on the results in
his life (57:32):
When you compare yourself to when you were
struggling and drifting in life.
What was the biggest differencebetween you as a person, your
identity and your purpose, tohow you are now
Seb Terry (57:49):
I think I've just learned to be me.
I just think we're told to be somany different things from a
very young age, by our parents,by culture, by society, by
business, by peer pressure,generational trends and all
those things.
And it's, uh, it's very easy andit's forgivable as well.
It's to see people as I was justgoing.
(58:11):
Okay, cool.
And you sort of subscribe to allthe things and that you don't
allow that to influence you andyou end up being a product of
society.
But I think in that, the risk isthat you completely lose
yourself.
And that's what I had.
I didn't even found myself.
So I was just drifting.
I wasn't doing a thing.
When I allowed myselfpermission, which is a really
important word you give.
A lot of people ask"How are youable to do what you do?
(58:32):
Is it because you're wealthy?
Or is it cause you're lucky orbrave or like", no, no, no, no,
no.
I just gave myself permission.
To be happy.
And I chose to pursue thatanyway.
retrospectively I've justlearned that the 100 Things list
was simply a vehicle for me to.
Get to know who I was better.
And I dare say the secret toliving a happy life in my
(58:55):
opinion, a life where on yourfinal day on earth, you can look
back and go.
I wouldn't change a thing is ifyou were able to a) figure out
who you are, which in itself isa journey and it's always
changing by the way.
And b) just learn to be thatperson.
Just unapologetically, be thatin every aspect, whether it's
business, whether it's personal,whether you're living in the
(59:17):
city, whether you're living inan ashram in India, you know, I
I'm really fortunate.
I could speak to a lot of peopleas you have done, you know,
doing, doing this series andthis book and it's, um, Yeah.
I just keep finding thecommonality between the people
who sleep well at night, thepeople who were deemed
themselves successful in, youknow, in the way that they would
be it financial or personal orwhatever, they're all just being
(59:38):
themselves.
And I think I know who I am atthis stage of my life, at least,
and I didn't at the beginning.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (59:46):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of
reflections from key themesaround career and life change
from my previous guests aroundrealising when other people knew
they needed to change careers orlifestyles, through to
discussing different ways tofind out what those empty,
negative persistent feelingsmean including meditation,
(01:00:08):
ayahuasca ceremonies andsomething I didn't cover but has
been brough up by many guestswhich is journalling out your
thoughts, and also speaking toother people including friends
or coaches.
We also discussed the concept ofidentity conflicts during career
changes, how to start to resolvethese inner conflicts, following
your curiosity and testingthings out to explore new paths
(01:00:31):
through to making decisions thatlead to happiness rather than
other previous objectives suchas making more money or getting
a promotion.
Discovering who you really areis a long process, psychometric
tests, self reflection andcoaching are ways to start to
uncover this key question.
And in future episodes we willexplore more ways on how to live
(01:00:56):
a life true to yourself, one ofthe top 5 regrets of the dying
uncovered by Bronnie Ware.
As always, please connect withme on LinkedIn or Facebook and
share your reflections on thisMatt Garrow-Fisher I'm the only
one in the world.
You can also check out my12-week career fulfillment
(01:01:25):
program onburnfromwithin.com/fulfillingcareer
where I take you through a setof exercises, tools and
techniques while reallylistening to you so you can
uncover who you really are, yourvalues, your strengths and
explore potentially new careerand life paths with my support.
(01:01:49):
Don't forget to subscribe tothis podcast, tell friends who
would benefit from this.
And Until next time, live withpassion, purpose and balance,
and Burn From Within.
In this episode, I reflect back on key
points my guests have sharedabout their career changes, and
shed light on patterns I'venoticed and how you can use this
collective knowledge andexperience practically in your
own change journey, whether youwant a career change or bigger
lifestyle changes.
(00:48):
The first point I wanted to talkabout is turning points.
And the moment you realise youwant to change.
And I share some clips fromguests on when they realised
they wanted to do somethingdifferent with their life.
First up, I have a clip from myinterview with Phil Evangelou
who left a high-pressure legalrole in a startup in London to
(01:11):
pursue a portfolio career withmore freedom to work remotely
and focus on his passionprojects such as setting up a
charity called Kupendo Kidsdonating toys to poor children
in Africa.
Here he discusses the time herealised when he wanted to
change.
Phil Evangelou (01:27):
so I think I got to the stage where, yeah, I put
my own interests below my job'sinterests.
And then, eventually, you know,you get to a point where you
feel a little bit disconnectedfrom the real world.
because you're so focused onachieving these career goals and
these goals of the businessyou're working for, that you
(01:49):
start to forget about yourpersonal goals and your own
personal development.
So, yeah, that's, that's, that'swhat I was feeling towards the
end of my four years stint.
in that I pressure your job.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (02:06):
In this next clip, I asked Dai Manuel, who
spent 17 years building an 8figure national fitness business
across Canada, about the momentshe realised he wanted to change:
Dai Manuel (02:17):
I learned a lot, but after 17 years, Matt, I knew it
was time for change, you know,and just because my gut told me
that.
I had this feeling.
I was not feeling satisfied.
I was not excited to go intowork anymore.
I wasn't even excited to havethose type of conversations with
my teams, with my suppliers.
(02:38):
I just, everything becameharder.
And you know, if I back it up acouple years, probably closer,
you know, a couple of yearsbefore getting to the 17 year
Mark, more like 18 monthsactually might I had gone
through a period of time where Ihad my Jerry McGuire moment.
You remember at the beginningwhere he stays up all night,
writing in his manifesto, writeabout how he wants to change the
(03:02):
industry and everything that hesees, and he sees this, this
paradigm shift needed.
Right.
And, uh, I had the same sort ofexperience, uh, you know, I got
to a point where I was feelingquite burnt out.
So, um, My partner and I agreed.
I'd take a break for a fewweeks.
And I flew from Vancouver toToronto to see family and just
really decompress and just notthinking about work.
(03:24):
And, uh, of course, when you trynot to think about work, you
start thinking about a lot ofother things that, that you may
be interested in.
And so I sat down and I wrote amanifesto.
My personal manifesto, uh, whichincorporate a lot of things.
I wanted to aspire for my ownpersonal life, but also where I
envisioned our company going andwhere I thought there may be
opportunities and, and thingsthat would get me excited, you
(03:48):
know, to get me re-engaged toget me wanting to recommit to
this business, you know, to thiscareer path.
Long and short of the story, mypartner never read it, then read
it.
You know, we never really had adiscussion around it.
It was a, it was sort of just ablip.
(04:10):
And I saw it at that point.
I felt really, I don't know,disconnected and just
disappointed.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (04:18):
You see, a lot of times, when things aren't
feeling good or working out howyou hoped in your career or
business, there is amisalignment between your
personal goals and your careergoals.
When you don't correct thatimbalance, or realise that your
career and personal goals are ontwo different paths that might
never cross, or perhaps younever will have the time or
(04:39):
flexibility to work on your ownprojects, that is where internal
conflict, and feeling bad,frustrated, empty and other
negative emotions kick in.
Without realising this andbecoming consciously aware of
it, you might channel this intobehvaiours to block out these
feelings, such as working more,or other unhealthy behaviours
(05:04):
that can lead to addiction suchas excessive alcholic, drugs,
video games, porn,over-exercise, etc.
So take a moment now, andreflect.
What are the personal goals youwant to achieve in your life?
(05:27):
Perhaps this next clip of SebTerry's realisation of what he
actually wanted in life helps toclarify and make sense of the
success he has had sincepursuing 100 goals to achieve in
life to make him happier andsmile: How did you decide Seb to
make such a big change to startcreating a list of a hundred
(05:48):
things to do before you die?
That will make you smile and behappy then to travel around the
world to make this list cometrue.
I mean.
You know, wasn't that really outof your comfort zone.
And where did, where did thatdecision come from after
drifting for so long in life
Seb Terry (06:05):
No, it was a, this is the crazy thing.
It was such a large contrast tothe way I'd been living, but it
was easiest decision I evermade.
And it was purely because in amoment of complete raw
authenticity, if you will, Ijust realized I wasn't happy.
And I just thought about it andit dawned on me ever so clearly,
like, like, you know, not to tryand make this sound dramatic,
(06:26):
but at the same time, it kind ofis.
I just realized for me, at leastall I wanted was to be happy.
That is it.
That was it.
And so, yeah, I just madedecisions that would allow that
to happen.
And so it was easy.
I mean, it sounds drastic.
I pulled myself out of a verynormal way of living like left
Australia.
I said goodbye to friends andfamily.
(06:48):
I.
I walked away from a businessthat had made no money at that
point, but went on to make moneyfor other people.
I mean just life is so it shouldbe simple.
If we had all boil down thething that we just truly, truly
one, and I dare say that beinghappy is ultimately what we all
want.
We just want to feel good if weknew how to feel good.
(07:08):
And we knew what the steps wereto get to that point, we will
all do it.
And it's easy.
It just is.
And so I, yeah, I dunno.
I want to be able to say, well,no, I'm special and I've worked
out a formula on how to behappy.
No, I didn't.
I just realized certain things Ithought I could do to make
myself smile more and I pursuedthem and.
The offshoot of that is ofcourse that it's had a big
(07:30):
ripple effect, but, you know, inthe, in the first instance it
was, it was just that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (07:35):
What things do you want to do in life that
would make you smile more?
How can you prioritise your timeto do these things?
In how many ways can youincorporate some of these things
into your career path?
How can you incorporate some ofthese things into your
lifestyle?
What do you need to change fromwhere you are now in life to do
(07:59):
more of these things you havelisted that would make you smile
more?
Remember, some things are out ofyour control of course.
Going travelling might make yousmile, yet if you are in a
lockdown like many countries areat the moment including the UK,
travel is pretty difficult,right?
(08:19):
So whenever you want to dosomething but you are not able
to do that thing that is out ofyour control, ask yourself the
question, for what purpose do Iwant to do this?
E.g.
For what purpose do I want totravel?
My answer to that question is toconnect with people, learn about
(08:40):
different cultures, seebeautiful scenery, be in nature,
etc.
Knowing this structure, if I amin a lockdown in my own country
right now, in how many ways canI fulfill these purposes of
connecting with people, learningabout different cultures well I
could maybe start an online meetup on Zoom with people from
(09:04):
around the world that is alanguage or culture exchange, or
join an existing one.
Perhaps you could do an onlinecourse in nature photography, so
when your lockdown is lifted,you can appreciate nature in a
new way.
The possibilities are endless toserve a purpose.
(09:29):
Sometimes, you might havestarted out in a company or
business, and had a certain setof values that were being met.
Over time, perhaps years or evendecades in a career or role,
your organisation's values havechanged, the people around you
have changed, and certainly youhave changed and so have what's
(09:51):
important to you now.
Maybe even the externalenvironment and events have made
the environment you now work instressful, toxic and unenjoyable
it's not the place orenvironment you originally
signed up for, This is certainlythe case in a clip I'm going to
share with you now of MaxVishnev what led you to to walk
(10:15):
away from wall street.
Right, right.
Great question.
I had this nice job.
I was dressed in businesscasual, I had a good salary,
benefits.
So I did that for several yearsand then got transferred to a
fancy trading desk in TimesSquare, which for me was, you
know, first time in my life Iworked in a skyscraper in the
middle of of it all right.
(10:35):
And the, the madness that'stimes square.
And I was sitting with these hotshot traders and so I was like
the operations manager on a bigtrading desk and it traded a lot
of confusing products thateventually led to the housing
crash and the, the globalfinancial crisis.
I was making a lot of money atthe time and I thought, man,
this is cool.
(10:55):
But then I also saw what happensonce the bubble burst, right?
The environment got really toxicand really negative very
quickly.
There were rounds of layoffs,there were the rumor mill was
turning about who's going to getlaid off, how the bonuses are
basically gone and what bank isgoing to fail next.
So this was 2000 so you know,Lehman brothers collapsed fall
of 2008 there was a dominoeffect.
(11:17):
The rest of the 2008 washorrific.
My company at the time, MorganStanley, we barely survived as
an independent bank.
We were going to go down to,there's some last minute
basically rescue efforts.
So we made it, but then I waslike, man, I got to get out of
here.
And the seeds were planted.
Like basically that fall withthe collapse of Lehman brothers.
I was so stressed out at work,my stress level just spiked and
(11:39):
I, you know, it was reallyaffecting my quality of life and
I was like, I don't want to behere.
You know, at the time I was 28and I was like, I gotta get
outta here.
You know, what's, what am Idoing here?
What's the primary driver?
Money, right.
And the status symbol of workingon a trading desk at Morgan
Stanley.
But at the end of the day, isthis something I want to keep
(12:00):
doing?
And the answer was no.
So what is the environment likeyou are working in now?
How has your day-to-day workchanged since you started and
when you were enjoying work?
How have the people changed?
In a good way or bad way?
(12:20):
Are the reasons you got into thejob or career no longer
attractive for you or importante.g.
the promise of lots of money andfancy offices might now not be
so alluring once you've had thisalready, particularly when
you've got used to it.
The shiny new objects might notbe so shiny anymore.
(12:41):
Sometimes your own circumstanceschange.
You might have had kids andstarting a family can certainly
over time change your prioritiesand what you are looking for in
your life and career, oftenmeaning more balance and perhaps
flexibility in work is craved.
Patrck Ryder shares in this cliphis situation of being in a
(13:04):
senior global role for manyyears, connected 24/7 to his
company, and the effect it hadon his physical health, his
mental health and the knock-oneffect it had on his
relationship with his wife andkids:
Patrick Ryder (13:16):
if we just look at the section of nearly eight
years when I was doing themobile tech work, when I was
based in London, And at the timewith my wife and a new baby, as
well as a slightly olderdaughter, And I was commuting,
on a daily basis from sorry toLondon, which at the time was
very difficult because of trainstrikes and various other
(13:37):
issues.
So it was something like threeand a half hours a day,
commuting With trains beingcanceled all the time.
You never knew what was comingone day to the next, not a
particularly sympathetic managerin London.
that person was based muchcloser to the office and
therefore I ended up having tochange my working hours.
(13:58):
but the stress continued andobviously on top of all that,
you know, not getting home so8:00 PM every night having left
at 6:00 AM, and then childcareand kids and all the rest of it.
So, That kind of was alleviatedwe're moving to Hong Kong, which
is, a very much morestraightforward set up, the
pressure's remained very similarif not more.
(14:21):
it was at that point after ayear in Hong Kong, this is 2017,
2018.
It became clear to me and mywife and those around me that
this was not the right thing forme anymore.
after 22 years of that,corporate life, there was having
detrimental effects on me as aperson and therefore my family
(14:45):
or my relationships, my qualityof life.
The list goes on the upsideswere fading and the downsides
were very, very negative anddamaging.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (14:56):
what were the kind of hardest points
about.
Corporate life what were thetoughest things where you
thought, wow, I can do this
Patrick Ryder (15:04):
anymore.
I think there's probably threeareas, you know, physical,
mental, and emotional.
I'm sure that resonates withlots of people.
So, but for me, it's welldocumented what the impact of
stress can be in from acorporate.
Day to day for me physically, Iknew something was badly wrong
(15:25):
when I ended up losing somethinglike 15 kilos in eight weeks
without actually changing mydiet at all.
And without exercising a greatdeal.
So I was still eating burgers, Alot of Asian, Chinese food,
obviously.
but losing 15 kilos is a hugeamount of weight in a very short
space of time.
(15:46):
So that was one indicator.
I think that got me seriouslyworried.
pure mental stress I've foundthat impossible to turn off, the
global nature of the business, Iwas running meant that, when
Asia closes America opens andyou're somewhere in the middle
And the nature of the connectedbusiness Wells nowadays means
(16:08):
that you need to be seen to beavailable 24 seven response
times and measured.
There are metrics in place.
There are deals that need doingSo it's kind of the fair and
greed.
Perspective in its worst form,not greed from my parts, but
greed from my company's part andthe business world in general is
(16:28):
part it's about making money.
Otherwise they'd be charities.
but certainly you end up in astate of high anxiety.
that you are either missingstuff or that you failed at
staff or that the perception ofyou is that you're not putting
your weights and things likethat.
So that manifested itselfcertainly physically for me.
(16:48):
the second thing was, mentally.
the mental impact was verynegative.
it turned me into a veryintroverted person, and was the
total wrong kind of focus.
the third part of things, myrelationship, those all
suffered.
as a result of that is I wasn'tthe family guide that I should
have been, that I wanted to be,that, I could have been.
(17:12):
and I think if you put all thosethree things together over time
and you keep grinding it out,then something's going to break.
And I felt that it.
Treaty dead within me.
And the impact on my marriagealso was starting to be
extremely detrimental as well.
Even though my wife is a verysort of a senior executive with
(17:34):
a lot of responsibility andpressure.
I just simply wasn't getting anykind of fulfillment out of
business success and everythingelse was suffering as a result
of that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (17:46):
Sometimes external events out of our
control happen which affect usand shake us up so much that we
start to question what is reallyimportant in life.
Prime examples of these externalevents are a death of a loved
one or a painful breakup, thelatter being the case for Kim
Orlesky, which prompted her toreevaluate her life and
(18:09):
successful sales career atAmerican Express in Canada and a
moment of realisation in theshower triggered a series of
decisions that changed her lifedramatically in the space of
just 6 weeks:
Kim Orlesky (18:23):
at the time I was doing really well with my career
as American express.
it was a lovely work from homeposition and I just got to a
point where, I just wasn't surethat this was where I wanted to
live my life.
I was inspired after a breakupbecause I was like, Aw, man.
I'm like, what else am I goingto do with my life?
And I'm like, this is reallywhat I thought I was going to
(18:45):
do.
And I was in the shower the nextday after this terrible breakup.
And I asked myself, I'm like,what do I want to do?
And it was like, almost likethis voice came inside my head.
It was like, just go travel.
And I thought, I'm like, whynot?
I'm not married.
I have kids.
I would leave a career and, thiswonderful house and everything
that I bought, but who cares.
(19:06):
a career as a career and you canfind more of them and a house is
a house and you can find more ofthat.
And, there's only so many daysin our lives where we can
actually go out and travel.
And so I made the decision andall of a sudden everything went,
moved incredibly fast.
Like lightning speed for themoment I made that decision to
the moment.
Yeah, I was, I had the housesold and it was on my first leg
(19:28):
of my trip was maybe six weeks.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (19:31):
Holli Massey, a highly-successful TV
and advertising producer fromMelbourne, Australia, on paper
had it all.
But something didn't feel quiteright and she started a quest to
explore what was the reason forthat feeling that kept bugging
her:
Holli (19:49):
this career of just working with loads of different
companies, loads of differentcreative people, directors and
producers.
And, yeah.
Keeps me off on this kind ofworking in advertising, which
was fantastic because.
I made a fair bit of money outof it, and it's really well
paid.
but I suppose during that timethat I was doing it, there was
(20:12):
always something that justdidn't feel right.
And I used to say to myself, youknow, you've got a good job.
You earn good money and workingwith amazing people.
Like what's your problem, youknow, stop winging, like, you
know, you're lucky, you know,all this kind of stuff.
So I sort of went into that sortof power play within my mind
(20:36):
quite a lot.
yeah.
And I got to travel, you know,so I got to sometimes because I
made enough money, I'd go ontravel for a year or something.
So I'd have a year traveling.
And, and so it was the perks ofeverything, you know, but.
It was just something that justdidn't feel right.
And it took me a little while tokind of put my finger on was,
and I think really ethically, Ijust felt, I always felt really
(21:02):
connected to the people feltreally connected to who I was
working with.
I loved the conversations and Iloved everything that was
creative about it.
But yeah, when someone would askme what I did for a job, I found
it really difficult to tell themthat I.
Produced TV commercials.
I felt like it was.
(21:22):
Adding to the problems of theworld.
I was kind of, you know, the,the consumerism and the, the
imbalance in, in life and thatsort of paradigm of fear based
paradigm that we live in.
I just, for whatever reason, Ijust really kind of carried that
(21:43):
with me and it felt really,didn't, it just didn't suit who
I was.
So.
I went on this sort of quest, Isuppose, to try and balance that
out and, found a project inKenya, in the developing world,
in developing countries.
I wanted to con did some travelthrough those developing
countries to find some projectsthat I could support through the
(22:05):
film industry.
And, and then that kicked me offinto kind of where I am now.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (22:11):
I played this next clip on a previous
episode called Big Decision NoRegrets, and want to play it
again from Vimala Seshadri,about feeling empty and
unfulfilled even when on thesurface everyone else sees you
are financially successful, havegreat hobbies, travel, etc, just
like Holli shared too.
(22:32):
Vimala's approach to finding outwhy she was feeling so empty and
unfulfilled was to sit withherself in silence for 5 whole
days:
Vimala Seshadri (22:41):
So, at that point in my life, I was, working
in a very, very, senior level.
Job.
And I was only 28 and I reallyenjoy the job.
I was traveling.
I was going first class.
I had, financially I wasextremely secure.
But I would come home every dayand feel like, okay, what's
(23:04):
next?
And that has been happening fora few months.
And I'm scared a lot of pressurefor me from my parents to
consider marriage.
And it just did not seem rightfor me.
And I didn't know why.
And I was in there like justlimbo phase.
And I came back.
(23:24):
I remember very clearly I cameback from horseback riding and.
Just said, why am I doing this?
And I started crying and it ledto three days of just nonstop.
I just need to know why I'm onthis earth.
And that deep sense of purposeand I needed to know.
And so I actually stepped out ofmy world and went into prayer
(23:50):
and just, just sat with myselfin the woods of Michigan and
just sat there and decided I wasgoing to figure this out.
I had a lot of supports aroundme, but I was silent for five
days.
And just when within, and theonly thing that I can, you can
think about that only thing thatreally came up visually and even
(24:10):
auditorily at that point waswork with kids.
Hmm, and I wasn't working withkids at all.
So it was a big surprise for me.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (24:16):
Right.
So, I mean, what was obviously,but you burst into tears, you,
you were upset about somethingand that is what prompted you to
reflect from a thing.
What do you think, was it abouteither your life or your career
that made you so upset?
Was there certain aspects that,you know, just weren't one
(24:38):
sitting with you?
Well, what was it in particular?
Vimala Seshadri (24:41):
I think, I just felt like I felt empty.
I was, I was like a robot.
I was just going to work doingmy thing, doing it.
Well, it wasn't about not beingsuccessful at the time I was
doing it well, but it wasn'tfulfilling.
So I fulfilled it with, youknow, going shopping, you know,
horseback riding.
And I was, going out withfriends, but, you know, The next
(25:04):
step.
Everybody told me it was, well,once you get married, then this
will all just kind of resolveitself.
And I'm like, I don't want to, Idon't know if that was right for
me, it didn't feel right for meat the time, but that real sense
of what, you know, what's the,what's the big deal is I find if
I do this work or if I don't dothis work, it's really not gonna
make an impact in the world.
(25:26):
And I think that's when I reallykind of felt miserable that I
could actually live on thisplanet and die and never really
make a difference or neverreally know if this is, this is
what I'm supposed to do for therest of my life.
Really know it in my heart.
(25:48):
there was a book, I think, thedeath of Ivan Ilitch, and at the
end of the book, he says, hegoes.
What if, you know, I didn't dowhat I was supposed to do while
I was here.
And that those kinds of thoughtskept coming to me again and
again, saying, is this, this,this all life is.
And everyone around me seemshappy in going to work.
(26:10):
You know, having that, thatlife, it just, something just
didn't sit right with me.
Right.
And yeah.
Right before I had this job, Iwas working in the university
where I had students and I hadpatients.
And I think that was verypurposeful for me.
Right.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (26:26):
Sometimes looking back on your career or
life and remembering when youwere most happy, when work or
certain activities you did werefulfilling and meant something
to you, can be incredible cluesto figuring out how to
renavigate your life or careerto be incorporating more of
these elements into your lifenow.
Sitting in silence for five dayscould be one way of uncovering
(26:49):
what a persistent negativefeeling is trying to tell you a
message from your unconscious todo something different.
Holli found her insights tochange and actually quit her job
after an ayahuasca ceremony andon returning to film an
advertisement for a global brandin the slums of India, her inner
conflicts were brought past herthreshold and she left her job
(27:13):
after finishing that project, asshe had the realisation that her
work brought an ethicalmisalignment that she was no
longer prepared to put up with
Holli (27:24):
I drove down to this ceremony on Friday.
I got back on the Monday andduring the ceremony, it was
just, yeah, quite a, I was verynervous about it cause I'd heard
all different things.
and during the ceremony, it wasprobably one of the most
nurturing experiences of mylife.
But the most, the biggest kindof slap in the face I probably
(27:47):
had ever had in my life as well.
I found out what my issue was.
I wouldn't know what the veryclear intention and, came out
with a very, went in with acertain perspective on life and
came out with.
Obviously the same person it'slike Dave, but I saw everything
(28:10):
very differently.
so I, yeah, I kind of, I got on,I came home, I got on a plane
the next day and I flew toIndia.
And after that experience, andobviously it takes you into a
whole other realm.
I mean, it's like, you're not inthis world.
And I went to India and we wentout to the location of where we
(28:35):
were filming, which was a slumin Mumbai.
And it was that moment.
I still remember it walking,getting out of the car, just
coming out of this Iowascaexperience with this whole kind
of new perception of going okay.
I know what my problem is.
I'm not listening to myself.
I'm not loving myself.
I'm not honoring who I am as aperson and walking into the slum
(29:00):
and, standing there just seeingall these amazing, beautiful
people.
and that was my moment where Iwas like, I can't do this.
I can't, I just can't do this.
I can't be this person anymore.
I want to work with thesepeople.
I want to work for the bettergood of these people.
(29:20):
I don't want to walk in herewith a brand and molting me and
be in dollar brand in this slumto sell what it was we were
selling now.
I don't directly sell thatstuff, but I.
You know, it's not like theclients, my responsibility or
anything like that, but just thevery act of me being there and
(29:43):
being a part of that team and,you know, producing that
commercial, just, it just mademe go that's it.
That's it.
I can't do this.
And that was my moment.
So it got through job and, itwas great.
And, I came back to Melbourneand, We, my business partner and
(30:04):
I have, weren't seeing eye toeye really very much.
Maybe that it's something to dowith it.
I don't know.
I mean, we'd worked a hell.
We'd worked a lot that year.
It was just, we went, you know,we're at burnout mode really,
and just can't do this anymore.
So yeah.
I left.
(30:26):
I left.
And then eight weeks later, myhusband and my kids and I were
on a plane and we came toIreland and a whole lot has
changed.
So every month, every week,every week, every month, every
year, has just been a buildingblock of getting Being who I am
and being real with what I do.
(30:48):
And.
never, ever, ever looking back.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (30:55):
it's this concept of identity that has
always fascinated me.
In fact, much of the work I'vebeen involved in in neuro
linguisitc programming and othercoaching methodologies centres
around what makes up one'sidentity.
A helpful framework I've foundto explore this and other key
steps on a ladder in career andlife change and correcting
(31:16):
internal misalignments and innerconflicts is called'The
Neurological Levels of Change',a model refined by NLP developer
Robert Dilts.
I may explore the usefulness ofthis model in career change in a
future episode, but in themeantime, I will include links
in the show notes that listenerscan use to start to understand
(31:38):
and use this concept.
The premise is that we have 6different levels we are
operating on at any one time.
When we have a misalignment atone of these levels, it is often
when we make a change at thelevel above that inner conflicts
can be sometimes instantlyresolved.
(32:00):
The levels start at environment,then behaviour, then skills or
capabilities, then values, thenidentity and the highest level
is purpose.
So earlier in the episode Ispoke about when there is a
conflict at the environmentlevel such as a national
lockdown, this restricts beingable to do a love of travel
(32:22):
which is also a conflict at thevalues level if someone values
adventure.
Recognising the purpose oftravel, to connect with people,
be in nature, etc, we canexamine each level below purpose
and assess what changes we canmake here to make improvements
to how we feel inside, even whenthere are things going out at
(32:46):
the environment level that areout of our control.
Often with careers, when someonewants a career change, there is
a conflict at their identitylevel, and often this is
realised much later on in beingunhappy for a while, as was the
case for Malia Griggs who tookover a year off work due to
(33:07):
extreme burnout, and during thistime off made these extremely
valuable realisations forherself and I hope also, you the
listener (33:17):
you raised quite an interesting point about, you,
you're not your job, you're notyour job.
I speak to quite a few peoplewho, particularly when they're
in transition in between jobs,some people that they feel lost
when they're not in a job.
And, I spoke to a friend who's.
He was sitting at home, he wason gardening leave, in
transition.
(33:37):
And he just didn't know what todo.
He's I don't know what to dowith gardening leave is when you
wait, when you're in between twojobs and your period in between
and in Europe at school.
Malia Griggs (33:51):
yeah.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (33:54):
And, people, don't, some people don't know
who they are, like when they'renot in a job.
it's like an identity issue.
What, how, who were you when youwere in that job and who are you
now?
Malia Griggs (34:06):
Yeah, I thought of myself as there being like a
work Malia and then just homeMalia.
And what I, especially when Iwas promoted, I remember
thinking I can't command a teamwhere everyone.
I look younger than everyone,I'm tech, I'm actually older,
but so I went out and I rememberI bought clothing that I felt
made me look more like a boss.
(34:28):
and I came to work and some ofmy coworkers made fun of me for
a while, but then they got usedto it.
I had, I bought a pair of heelsthat I put under my desk and I
bought just like fancierclothing than the flannel shirts
I was wearing to work with my,just my jeans.
and that kind of helped me.
Take on this mindset, to put onthat costume.
But then I think that costumeextended beyond just being a
(34:51):
costume to a degree.
so I felt like I was actingaway.
I mean, there are elements of myhumor that were there and, I
like injecting humor and, intomy candor work, but, I just, I
felt like the goop, the Greeley,the true, the truly goofy
essence of myself was gone.
the things that I don't knowthat made me creative were gone.
(35:15):
I used to love it writing and Ido love writing, but I used to
really love writing and thenphotography and, painting and
drawing and acting.
And I was into improv, for abit.
And I wanted to do stand up andall of these things, I felt like
I didn't have time to do becauseI was, my job was just.
Taking up so much of my energy,the time that, a lot of nights I
(35:36):
had to be home, if there was adebate or any sort of political
event or for is the Oscars orwhich, again, this is part of,
par for course, but then whenyou add on the insanity of
having mass shootings all thetime, it's just becomes, and
then the impeachment, it's justa lot, it's a lot for any
journalist and it's a lot forsomeone who's covering social
(35:57):
media.
And then on top of that socialmedia is more than it sounds.
yeah, they're the, I think theessential parts of me were the
things that I loved when I was alittle younger and then couldn't
didn't have any space for it.
so I guess, yeah.
Now I have more time.
I have lots of time for that.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (36:18):
It's often when we revisit what makes us
happy, purposeful, passionatefrom earlier in our lives that
we start to uncover a sense ofwho we really are The only way
to really know who we really arethough and prove the theory is
to test things out.
And it's this testing thatPatrick Ryder did when he took a
(36:38):
year off all work to figurethings out.
He volunteered in teaching andfollowing his curiosity, got
feedback from family, friends,people in the industry he was
testing getting into for himteachers which proved an
invaluable use of time inproving it was the right new
path for him:
Patrick Ryder (36:59):
Happiness is very hard to measure, but is much
more visible to me anyway.
that's a positive purpose.
helping people to progress andgrow.
And I keep using that wordprogression, but it is super
important.
that's kind of how thatmanifested itself.
and it was blatantly clear thatI needed to do something totally
different.
(37:20):
So I knew that I'd always likedteaching and coaching.
and my son was at a preschool inHong Kong.
My daughter was a, the Britishinternational school in Hong
Kong and I decided to go and dosome volunteering.
so at least I'd be doingsomething constructive.
Whilst I figured out whateverthe plan was going to be for me.
and so I started volunteeringboth with the three year olds
(37:42):
and the eight, nine, 10 yearolds, and absolutely loved it
and, really got into it andended up doing everything from
pirate dress up days to sensoryplay days being covered in
lasagna.
Taking three year olds out inthe mountains in Hong Kong and
how to build stuff with rocks toteaching my set those aside, the
(38:04):
older class about photographyand stuff like that, which I
really love.
And just organizing schoolfairs, I'm much more good for
the soul stuff than justchurning out metrics and sales
reports on Salesforce.
like man, you know, I can beout.
Building a skate, ramble,something, you know, listening
(38:25):
to a mix or reading a book oranything, you know?
So I thought began tocrystallize the idea of teaching
in my mind.
And that's really where I guessthe testing stage came in and by
testing, I mean, putting thisidea, allowing myself to be
vulnerable and opening up andsaying to select friends, family
(38:47):
members, look, This is where Iam.
This is the idea I have.
What do you think?
And getting their feedback andreally doing a lot of active
listening to that feedback.
my mother-in-law has been aheadmistress at a primary school
in Botswana for 30 odd years.
A lot of our family friends aremy teachers.
(39:07):
For my primary school andsecondary school still, and a
lot of friends are actuallyteachers teaching assistants in
the education system.
And the feedback from them wasresoundingly.
You know, we think you'd make agreat teacher.
We can see that you've got theright kind of skills and nature
and you're that type of personso that, you know, I didn't need
(39:28):
the validation, but it was niceto get it.
you need a sounding board So asa litmus test, that crystallized
it for me.
And it was at that point that Istarted to put together one of
the most important kind ofthing, ethos aspects that I live
by, which my wife kind of taughtme as well as various other
people.
I've met along the way, which isto have a plan
Matt Garrow-Fisher (39:50):
natasha Stanley emphasises this point
about following your curiosity,and not just making a list of
things you are interested in,but actually jumping into trying
things out, testing out newactivities, business ideas,
career paths throughconversations, mini shift
projects perhaps at the weekendor when you have time off, and
(40:15):
getting a sense of if it isreally for you.
Natasha Stanley (40:15):
why can't I just find my thing and master it
and do it really well.
And what I discovered wasactually.
If I, Elizabeth Gilbert talksabout following your curiosity.
And if I just do that, if I gowith the things that are
interesting, me, immerse myselfin it, up to the point that I
need to and want to, and findways to share that with people
(40:40):
that's.
Really, it's not just enough forme.
It fills me up.
I don't get bored.
I don't reach the point where,I'm doing the machine repeating
itself kind of thing.
And some people love that.
Some people love the detail,keeping the machine running, all
of that kind of jazz for me.
It's just like that shiny.
I'm going to go and dive intothat.
(41:01):
Who wants to come with me?
And along the way, if I keepasking myself, like, why is this
important?
What do people need in relationto this thing that interests me?
There is always an opportunityto make a living from it one way
or another.
everything that I do.
Right now does fall under thatkind of umbrella conversation
(41:22):
around helping people do thingsthey never thought were
possible.
I see it every day in my workwith career shifters, people
just look what just happened.
Look what I just did saying welack or yoga.
the first time somebody flies onsomeone else's feet that look on
their face is what I live for.
with this is for you.
I teach people the art andscience of meaningful human
(41:44):
connection.
I have people walking out ofworkshops thing.
Like I never thought that Icould go that deep with somebody
that quickly and not feel scaredor vulnerable or uncomfortable,
falls under that umbrella.
But the more that I go through,so the more I realize.
That kind of happens byaccident.
If I just trust the stuff thatI'm interested in and I manage
(42:06):
eyes by when I look backwards,Steve jobs in his commencement
speech talks about, you can onlyjoin the dots, looking
backwards.
When I look backwards, I seethat theme, but I'm not like I'm
going to go out and help peopledo things that they never
thought were possible.
It's really just me trusting mygut saying, Hey, that looks
cool.
Who wants to come with me?
(42:27):
And that's not the case foreverybody.
some people have a verydifferent approach, a different
mindset, different set of needsthan I do, but there's something
about, we work with an ideacalled the fulfillment sweet
spot.
Which is like a Venn diagram ofthree cars questions.
And we believe that yourfulfilling work lies at the
(42:49):
intersection of those trends,the questions.
So the first one is, whatenergizes me.
So not what am I passionateabout?
Not what's my purpose.
Not even what do I love, butwhat energizes me?
Yeah, wake up in the morning andyou're like, Oh God, I just, I
can't today.
And then there's something thatyou do.
(43:10):
And no matter how tired youwere, when you started, you come
out buzzing and it might be goodthing that you're doing, it
might be the people that you'rearound.
It might be the environment.
Yeah.
And it's the whole picture, butfinding some what energizes you
finding something that you'regood at or that you could get
good at?
(43:30):
and then what will the world payfor?
So for me, I start with the,what energizes me part, cause
I've been in jobs where I wasgood at it and I got paid for it
and I just wanted to stick afork in my eye every morning.
So I start with what energizesme.
I'm like, Oh, this feels buzzy.
I'm going to follow that.
I do a little bit of it.
Oh, I could get good at this,or, Oh, I actually am quite good
(43:52):
at this.
And then, okay.
So what's the problem I cansolve using this.
What will the world pay for?
and that's the way round thatI've found gets results most
quickly.
But the key of all of that is tostart doing it as quickly as
possible.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (44:09):
We examined some really practical ways of
discovering what energises youand what drains your energy, in
taking certain psychometricassessments, particularly ones
backed by lots of science anddata such as Strengths Profile
which I took and discussed witha great coach who took me
through my assessment, ThereseToohey:
Therese Toohey (44:30):
The thing I really love about it is, you
might've mentioned fourdifferent concepts, which kind
of show how much you're becomingenergized versus how much you're
being drained of energy.
So there's realized strengths,unrealized, strengths, which are
things that.
Gave you energy.
They give you energy points.
If you were, and then learnbehaviors and weaknesses or
things that you might Excel atand your boss might say, wow,
(44:54):
you're one of the topperformers.
It does, but it doesn't lightyou up inside.
It actually takes energy awayfrom you and an every day eats
away to the point that you don'twant to do it.
or you want to do it less thanthat.
and that is not a ground for.
moving towards success andgrowth.
it's actually quite theopposite, even though, there's
an illusion of you being veryskilled and a top performer.
(45:15):
I had an example of that When Iwas working in the public
service straight like properly.
I was part of the team that wasdoing the state of the service
report, which is a hugecompendium of where they're up
to in terms of all sorts ofthings.
Writing is not one of mystrengths.
I can write, I've done itmasters.
I know how to deal with it.
I can do it.
I'm reasonably good at it, butit just doesn't give me energy.
So I did the job, I got it done.
(45:37):
They really loved the work thatI did.
And they said to me, the yearturned over to the next year and
they came back to the list.
Listen, you did such a good joblast year.
We want you to do this again.
I just wanted to call up in thefetal position under the desk.
I could do it, but he justdidn't light me up.
And I was diminishing the more Ihad to do his own.
Really wasn't doing the thingsthat I loved, which I could be
more engaged with and moreproductive because I got energy
(45:59):
from them because they mattered.
So yeah, completely one Oh oneexample of you've got a
strength, but no energy from it.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (46:08):
the other big concept that I wanted to
touch on in this episode inparticular and develop further
is the issue of your sense ofidentity in your career and
changing careers.
I explored this further withworld-reknowned coach Jamie
Smart, who also explain thatrealising that none of what
(46:28):
going on in your job, career orworld outside is not causing you
stress or other negativeemotions, but that all of that
is created within you it's aninternal experience.
And once you realise that, itcan be immensely freeing to
focus your energises and changeyour attitude for new levels of
(46:51):
happiness.
Why do you think then that,people that have changing
career?
they're not happy in that job orin that business.
Why do you think they.
Struggle to find a role or anidentity that makes them happy
to see them and is who they arein a sense.
Jamie Smart (47:14):
Well, I, I dunno.
I mean, some people do somepeople don't, but I think there
are a bunch of reasons.
one reason is a lot of timeswhen someone's got a job that
they're good at, for instance,they've got a bunch of track
record with it and they're goodat it.
And so they get kudos for it andthey get paid for it and all
that sort of stuff.
And then they got this thingthat they're inspired to do, and
(47:35):
they got to start from scratchwith that and be not very good
at that's what I had to do whenI decided I was going to be a
coach and a trainer.
I had to be really sure.
I wasn't very good at it when Istarted out.
Whereas my job, I was good at.
I got well paid for when I firststarted coaching, I could hardly
get paid anything.
Cause I wasn't very good at it.
I had to develop my skills andmasters.
So there's that like people likestuff that they're good at and
(47:59):
that they're familiar with andthat they already know how to
do.
But I think, the word you usethe identity people often
they've got a lot of identity ina certain role, that sort of
thing.
and the idea, and I rememberreading, I don't know how true
it is, but, Reading that somemassive percentage of guys guys
die within two years of retiringfrom their job.
(48:22):
Cause all this stuff aboutidentity and purpose and that
sort of thing is wrapped up init.
And I'm like, man, I had therenever want to retire or I know
what I want to make sure I don'thave too much identity
associated with that stuff.
But I think, a lot of timespeople associate or work role
with who they are and what theirvalue to society is.
(48:42):
But also just the thing offamiliar, I've worked with lots
and lots of people around.
A career change.
And a lot of times it's fear ofmaking a mistake, fear of
criticism, fear of not beinggood enough, all that sort of
stuff.
And you don't want one of thebig ones is math.
Fear that they're not going tobe okay if things go wrong, like
(49:04):
you, you and I both know massivenumbers of businesses fail
within the first year ofstarting and massive numbers
fail within the first fiveyears.
So we know that if you want togo and do your own thing, that's
a relatively high risk venture.
And if you want to start a newjob, a new in a new industry or
(49:25):
a new type of career, while thathas a certain amount of risks
associated.
People, people don't like,having to let go of their
perceptions of security.
Cause a lot of people believetheir security comes from their
job or their role or theirperception in the eyes of
others, that kind of thing.
So that's my best guess at it.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (49:47):
so how then would you be confident in making
it as in a big life decision,like career change?
Cause you're
Jamie Smart (49:56):
saying.
certainly when I work withpeople around where we start is
helping people get clear on twothings.
One we've already talked about,which is who they really are.
And the other is where theirexperience comes from.
I give you an example, we'rerecording this in the middle of
(50:17):
lockdown and COVID 2020 and.
Lots of people.
If you'd asked them in a, Idon't know, November or December
of last year, he said, what,how's 2020 looking to you.
They would have said, Oh yeah,I've got a real sense of
certainty and confidence aboutwhat 2020 holds and that sort of
(50:41):
thing.
And then if you'd ask them fourmonths later, they'd be, I feel
very insecure and veryuncertain.
We're actually closer to realitynow than we were four months
ago.
what we have now is the end ofan illusion.
We have the illusion back inlate twenties, 19 when they were
certain that things were goingto go a certain way in 2020,
(51:01):
it's an illusion.
It was never going to be thecase.
This was already in the cards.
so we're actually closer toreality.
if one of the things that.
No, we can all do with gettingbetter at is becoming
connoisseurs of reality ratherthan our own illusions.
Remember, when I, back when Iwas still, I was when I was
(51:22):
still contracting, actually, sothis is like 1999.
And so as day rate contractor ona contract in this company and
the HR, because I was involvedin a mission critical project,
they decided it would make moresense if they could get me in as
an employee.
(51:42):
And they, so they offered me apackage, very attractive
package, director level, salary,car, all this sort of stuff.
I said, no things.
I'm, I prefer to stick withthings as they are for, to have
a contract and the freedom and,income that's associated with
that.
And the HR director, he wasshocked.
He said, well, what about jobs?
(52:02):
Security?
I said, well, there's no suchthing as job security, you know,
as well as I do, you've you'vemade people redundant as part of
your role.
They thought they had jobsecurity, but they didn't.
There's no such thing as jobsecurity.
That's an illusion, it's anillusion.
And he got really flustered.
He said, what would happen if weall thought that way?
(52:24):
It's wow, I don't know.
it's the truth.
It's the truth that the feelingof security.
Can only an always come fromwithin that's the only place
that has ever come from everyfeeling of security you've ever
experienced has being generatedfrom within your psychological
(52:44):
and spiritual properties.
Every feeling of peace andwellbeing has been generated the
same way, every experience oflove and peace and connection.
Came from within same, withevery experience of, anxiety and
worry and all that stuff, too.
It comes from the inside outit's created from within, it
(53:05):
seems like it's coming fromthere.
The stress seems like it'scoming from, the email or the
traffic or whatever it might be.
but it's being generated fromwithin a hundred percent of the
time.
No exceptions.
And so that's worth no.
And if you're wanting to embarkon a new venture, because it
(53:26):
turns out there's a lot ofthings, but you don't need to
concern yourself with once yourealize that, and that frees you
to focus on the things that itis worth concerning yourself
with a w and that it is worthpaying attention to.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (53:41):
My recent guest Jeremy Lipkowitz reflected
on this very point to discusshow our reality is created from
within in this clip and givespractical ways we can start to
change our attitude and realitythrough mindfulness and
meditation:
Jeremy Lipkowitz (54:00):
one of the reasons that those silent
retreats are so powerful is youjust see how powerful the mind
is in terms of creating yourreality.
you can literally be doingnothing, but sitting in a room
having a cup of tea and you caneither be in a state of complete
hell because of what's going onin your mind or complete bliss,
based on how you're relating toyour experience.
(54:23):
And it's all in your mind.
it's so much of the drama thatwe experience is created by
ourselves, created by havingexpectations about where we
should be, or shouldn't be, or,all these things.
It's so great to be, to have thetime to go on a retreat like
that, but you're right.
That most people don't have thespace.
(54:43):
most people don't have the timeand the space to go on a retreat
like that.
There's still so much you can doto start to become aware of
these things.
So developing a consistentmeditation practice,
particularly, I'm a huge fan ofmindfulness, which is this
there's very bare open.
Awareness of what's happening.
There's no goal to mindfulness.
(55:04):
It's really about observingwhat's happening, particularly
inside your experience.
So what's going on in your body.
What's going on in your mind.
And this observation, you startto see what's happening in your
life.
You start to see the way youmight be talking to yourself the
way you might be beatingyourself up, high performers.
(55:24):
So many of us are.
Really vicious, inner critics,right?
We're so nasty toward ourselves.
when you start to see that, yousee how violent you are to
yourself, you just naturallystart to do less of it, but it
requires seeing it first.
So that's one thing is, having aconsistent, meditation practice
(55:46):
or reflection practice, orself-awareness practice of some
sort.
The other big thing that I liketo offer it to the people that I
work with or in some of theworkshops I do is connecting
with people that you reallyadmire from that sense of how
they're living their life.
And for me, this was reallyimportant early on is seeing
(56:08):
people that were living reallygood lives.
They were really fulfilled fromwithin, and you could see it on
their face, the way that theylive.
It wasn't about how successfulthey were.
They had this kind of innerradiance to them and reading
about those people.
for me, I think of, people likethe Dalai Lama or, tick, not Han
(56:31):
or, whoever you want to think ofpeople that have that inner glow
is really powerful because thenyou start to.
your vision of reality starts tocrumble.
if you keep thinking, Oh, I'llonly be happy if I can be a
millionaire and have enoughmoney to retire and go sit on a
beach and drink a margarita andyou see those people and that
(56:53):
they're miserable.
And then you see someone whodoesn't own anything except for
a pair of robes and a beggingbowl.
And they're filled withhappiness and contentment.
You start to realize Oh, okay.
Maybe I'm not doing thingsright.
Maybe I'm focused on the wrongthings here.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (57:09):
This concept of comparing your identity when
you are unhappy in your life andcareer to when you are burning
from within, living life withpassion, purpose and balance is
my final point I wanted tohighlight in this episode.
We go back to episode 1 whereSeb Terry unpacks his valuable
thoughts on this and the effectthis has had on the results in
his life (57:32):
When you compare yourself to when you were
struggling and drifting in life.
What was the biggest differencebetween you as a person, your
identity and your purpose, tohow you are now
Seb Terry (57:49):
I think I've just learned to be me.
I just think we're told to be somany different things from a
very young age, by our parents,by culture, by society, by
business, by peer pressure,generational trends and all
those things.
And it's, uh, it's very easy andit's forgivable as well.
It's to see people as I was justgoing.
(58:11):
Okay, cool.
And you sort of subscribe to allthe things and that you don't
allow that to influence you andyou end up being a product of
society.
But I think in that, the risk isthat you completely lose
yourself.
And that's what I had.
I didn't even found myself.
So I was just drifting.
I wasn't doing a thing.
When I allowed myselfpermission, which is a really
important word you give.
A lot of people ask"How are youable to do what you do?
(58:32):
Is it because you're wealthy?
Or is it cause you're lucky orbrave or like", no, no, no, no,
no.
I just gave myself permission.
To be happy.
And I chose to pursue thatanyway.
retrospectively I've justlearned that the 100 Things list
was simply a vehicle for me to.
Get to know who I was better.
And I dare say the secret toliving a happy life in my
(58:55):
opinion, a life where on yourfinal day on earth, you can look
back and go.
I wouldn't change a thing is ifyou were able to a) figure out
who you are, which in itself isa journey and it's always
changing by the way.
And b) just learn to be thatperson.
Just unapologetically, be thatin every aspect, whether it's
business, whether it's personal,whether you're living in the
(59:17):
city, whether you're living inan ashram in India, you know, I
I'm really fortunate.
I could speak to a lot of peopleas you have done, you know,
doing, doing this series andthis book and it's, um, Yeah.
I just keep finding thecommonality between the people
who sleep well at night, thepeople who were deemed
themselves successful in, youknow, in the way that they would
be it financial or personal orwhatever, they're all just being
(59:38):
themselves.
And I think I know who I am atthis stage of my life, at least,
and I didn't at the beginning.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (59:46):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of
reflections from key themesaround career and life change
from my previous guests aroundrealising when other people knew
they needed to change careers orlifestyles, through to
discussing different ways tofind out what those empty,
negative persistent feelingsmean including meditation,
(01:00:08):
ayahuasca ceremonies andsomething I didn't cover but has
been brough up by many guestswhich is journalling out your
thoughts, and also speaking toother people including friends
or coaches.
We also discussed the concept ofidentity conflicts during career
changes, how to start to resolvethese inner conflicts, following
your curiosity and testingthings out to explore new paths
(01:00:31):
through to making decisions thatlead to happiness rather than
other previous objectives suchas making more money or getting
a promotion.
Discovering who you really areis a long process, psychometric
tests, self reflection andcoaching are ways to start to
uncover this key question.
And in future episodes we willexplore more ways on how to live
(01:00:56):
a life true to yourself, one ofthe top 5 regrets of the dying
uncovered by Bronnie Ware.
As always, please connect withme on LinkedIn or Facebook and
share your reflections on thisMatt Garrow-Fisher I'm the only
one in the world.
You can also check out my12-week career fulfillment
(01:01:25):
program onburnfromwithin.com/fulfillingcareer
where I take you through a setof exercises, tools and
techniques while reallylistening to you so you can
uncover who you really are, yourvalues, your strengths and
explore potentially new careerand life paths with my support.
(01:01:49):
Don't forget to subscribe tothis podcast, tell friends who
would benefit from this.
And Until next time, live withpassion, purpose and balance,
and Burn From Within.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.