June 11, 2021 • 39 mins
On this week’s episode, I have Nishith Shah, founder of Thought Labs, co-founder of the Global NLP Conference India and someone I’ve worked with in training people how to become aware of their own mind’s source code and the structure of our human experience, taking people beyond their comfort zones at retreats in the Swiss Alps and the Indian Himalayas. This conversation is all about dealing with unexpected events in life, like the very present latest Covid strain in June 2021 and lockdowns in India where Nishith is based. And also his own career journey which didn’t go as he expected it would. There is a lot of principles around ways of thinking in this conversation about career change and life change and I hope you gain as much wisdom around how to think as I did from this.
Resources:
- Connect with Nishith Shah here via his LinkedIn profile
- Check out Nishith’s training company Thought Labs here for more information about his amazing retreats in Goa, Switzerland, the Himalayas and more here
- Global NLP Online Summit India - purchase recordings of this year’s insightful presentations, including from previous Burn From Within guests Jamie Smart and Vimala Seshadri and as well as register for next year’s event
- Join Matt and Nishith on Clubhouse with my upcoming discussion around how to make decisions without regrets here
Books:
- Building the Bridge As You Walk On It: A Guide for Leading Change by Robert E. Quinn – an amazing book on building a business or career by stepping into the unknown. In the process of stepping out of your comfort zone and following what lights you up in life, you bring out more of your true potential and become more congruent with your life as a result.
- To find out more about designing multiple 5-year life plans (called Odyssey Plans), check out the Designing Your Life book by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans from Stanford University here and their on-demand video workshop course is here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (00:31):
On this week's episode, I have mishit
Shaw founder of thought labs andco-founder of the global NLP
conference, India.
And someone I've worked with intraining people, how to become
aware of their own minds sourcecode.
And the structure of our humanexperience.
Taking people beyond theircomfort zones at retreats in the
(00:52):
Swiss outs and the IndianHimalayas and elsewhere around
the world.
This conversation is all aboutdealing with unexpected events
in life.
Like the very present COVIDstrain in June, 2021 and
lockdowns in India whereinitiate is based.
And also in his own career,which didn't go as he expected,
it would.
(01:13):
There is a lot of principlesaround ways of thinking in this
conversation about career changeand life change.
And I hope you gain as muchwisdom around how to think as I
did from this.
The full show notes and videosof other interviews are
available@burnfromwithin.comfull session interviews.
So listen all the way through.
(01:34):
And enjoy I'm really excited to.
Share your story and some of thekind of structure around your
thinking today and in particularright now you're in India and,
there is a, obviously a globalpandemic, but it's particularly
the Indian strain of theviruses.
Everyone's been seeing it aroundthe world on the news, and it's
(01:54):
particularly tough in India inthe communities there.
Before we get into like in, intodepth about your life what, how
have you found this experience?
Living in India?
Yourself and, the people thatyou know, and I guess what
lessons have you learned in yourown life, from this experience
that you might be able to takefrom this going out of the
(02:16):
country?
Nishith Shah (02:16):
Yeah, it's been difficult for short.
Specifically because I didn'tknow this happened because I was
on a, in the mountains on anexpedition.
And so I was up, and we didn'thave network with the beads,
then it was challenging.
But when I did go to themountains in India, there was
nothing.
We had 3000 cases a day and thiswas a big country with this
(02:36):
population.
They don't need was nothing.
And when I came back after threeweeks and fished on the phone,
the first thing that I saw lostthat, that to the powers that
don't do 400,000 in just theamount of the weeks.
And then I began to make morehappen.
How did it all of a sudden meanit almost been like hell break,
broken, loose.
And my expedience in themountain was that I was looking
(02:59):
forward to coming back becausewe had really difficult time in
the market because of snowstorm.
And I was really looking forwardto coming back home and duty,
just, getting a massage and thengoing to the spa and all of
that.
But I'm new to the game back inthe lockdown and everything was
shut.
And so I started, like I wasmoving from one challenge to
(03:21):
another challenge, but maybehaving a pretty built, it was
like just moving from one toanother.
And.
That was particularlychallenging because one, I
didn't see it coming and Iwasn't expecting it.
And it's just something thathappened.
And the biggest lesson that Icouldn't learn from this was
acceptance.
That was just mentioning nothingI would do all day.
(03:44):
Initially I did feel frustratedbecause I couldn't help people.
I couldn't do it.
Got it.
Going a bit sad, even looking atthe news and who shouldn't be
here.
Of course.
Every now and then I would healthat someone's off the way in
someone's come onsite.
And he just and I couldn't doanything to as possible door and
it was just frustrating.
(04:04):
The most important thing thatcame out of this was just
acceptance that all I can extentthis and.
What are some of the things thatare in my control that I can be
attention to and focus on that.
So we started doing some supportsessions for people, and so on
the paying attention to my thethings that I can control and
(04:25):
things that I can pay attentionto.
And that accept that this iswhat it is.
Then we can just do the best toshift it and change it.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (04:32):
Great lessons to be learned and your
master trainer of NLP and veryaware of the structure of your
experience and what's going onand to attuned to recognizing
that pattern of acceptance in,in this moment right now during
COVID in India A number of yearsago, before you even started
learning NLP you got offered aplace at NASA the space agency
(04:57):
and unfortunately due to somepersonal challenges, you weren't
able to.
Take up that career.
And as you talk about acceptancenow and with this kind of
clarity of thought and beingaware of structure of your
experience through, throughneuro-linguistic programming
back then, you didn't have thatawareness, that definitely not
that training.
(05:17):
How did you deal with.
I guess that career that wasoffered you almost been being
taken away.
And how did you respond?
And I guess a follow-up to thatis if you were in that same
situation now, what would you dodifferent?
Nishith Shah (05:31):
So in that moment as possible, just to give the
context of this internship inNagasaki provoke, the project
that I've worked on and yeah.
That was one of the biggestterror giant for me to live my
mind at that point due to eitherbecome astronauts on tribute to
the space exploration.
That's what gives to what Iread.
We want to become astronaut.
And I generally bless you thatand look towards that and just
(05:55):
couldn't get that at that point.
I definitely didn't know thestructure of acceptance at that
point was angry.
And I was frustrated becauseit's something I could have
done.
It's something that wants thatfor me to do it and I couldn't
do it.
And that was really difficultand frustrating So I didn't
super closely with engineering,but it took me a couple of years
(06:18):
to really deal with it.
Good that by that time I lostinterest in engineering.
Cause in my mind, like thebooklets to do engineering loss
to become an astronaut.
And if I can't be an astronaut,then what's the book was of
doing engineering anymore.
And so my interest inengineering was completely lost
and and yeah, took, we do theyear barely focus on that.
(06:41):
Really can get ordered.
If I, if you ask me, what wouldI do now?
Going back to the samesituation.
I think it's learning thisacceptance that we need to be
heads to really accept it and tobe able to focus on, because the
thing that I've learned in lifeis that there's just not one
vision.
That'd be habitus humans.
(07:03):
If you dig deep, then I'm surethat all of us have one to
position my differentexperiences and things that
you're passionate about.
That's something I didn't knowthen, but I know now the cost,
as much as I ended up beingastronaut, it wasn't anything in
the more, and it was only thingin the world at that time.
But right.
It wasn't that I learned that Icould build a new vision.
(07:26):
I could follow something else,then I'm interested in something
else that I'm passionate about.
And again, at that time, I loveand share what that was.
But as I explored and I continueexploring, and I was lucky
because I kind of John step onthis youth organization and they
used to work with professionalconcentration.
And I found my new calling inour form when new passion and.
(07:50):
If I were to go back to thatsituation, now I'll remember
this, that there's just morethan one thing in life.
There can be multiple thingsthat I can focus on.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (08:00):
Yeah, I very much resonate with that.
I did some training in the lastfew months with Stanford
university professors calleddesigning your life is around
design thinking.
And one of the concepts theytalk about in life design and
career design is what's calledOdyssey planning and it's a
simple exercise.
I can share it in the shownotes, but it basically.
(08:21):
You project your life over thenext five years and plan what
you want to do for the next fiveyears.
And you write down, you want todo this year to open a
restaurant and year three orgrow it.
And, you'll become the nextsubway, but tastier and that
kind of stuff.
And But then you do that entireexercise for one set five years,
but then you do it again for anew five years and then you do
(08:44):
it one more time and what itdoes is it opens up choice that
sometimes life.
Gets in the way.
And there's things that are outof your control that happened,
and you do have alternativesand, there are many paths to
fulfillment, happiness, joypassion purpose and you can plan
for it as well.
If you really are consciouslyaware of what you want and what
(09:04):
you want to contribute to theworld, and then you can do that.
And so with With choice and thiskind of realization of choice,
you realizing that was a passionthat you had it's an
interesting, and you have anunusual career path compared to
a lot of people that, go tocollege, Then they go into their
nine to five.
Often corporate roles and dothat career you chose a, what
(09:27):
seemed like it seems like apassion in NLP.
How did you decide for that tobe your career and, did it
suddenly become a passion or wasit through practice?
Like how did you know that, thatwas your passion and why did you
go after it as a career?
Cause it's quite, I would saythat's a risk is an unusual not
safe choice.
Nishith Shah (09:46):
Yeah, I think the biggest city, then I ran doctor
and it'd be POS wave.
It goes up the expedience withNASA because I was so angry and
frustrated.
And and I think the frustrationcame from the fact that, most
people just dream about it and Ihad it and I couldn't get it.
And I couldn't get away with it.
I couldn't really begin all theway to get her with it.
(10:08):
And then like always with someof these things that happen,
someone came to me and say, Hey,you know what?
You should go and do NRB.
And that would really help you.
And so I went and did my an OBequals your environment.
And it didn't really make a lotof sense and it didn't really
help me.
It was quite a profoundexperience that I had.
(10:29):
A lot of things didn't makesense in the bus time that I did
it took me a while to get usedto it, but I did know that there
was something in this and morethan that, I really like the
idea of exploring humanpotential.
I think that's part of thestructure of the way I create
vision.
Most of my goals and likebecoming an astronaut is.
Pushing human would ensure goingto places that are as humanity
(10:52):
we haven't gone before.
And that was how I had createdmy vision currently, because I
couldn't become and big, thenext best thing is to find
evidence.
And I think that also comes fromthe place of the daily pushing
my my limits and humanpotential.
And so I think the general, myvision creation is.
Under the underlying don't haveit.
(11:13):
Is that, how can I do any Bush?
My human Mike would ensure them,how can I really, one of my
comfort zone and and I thinkdoing an, it would be gave me
that expedience.
And, but it also gave me thestructured.
It gives me the step by stepprocess of me hoping others do
the same.
And I think that was reallyexciting for me.
That was really fascinating tobe able to do that.
(11:34):
But other than that, all ofthose to really explore that
their mind and the limits.
And I I also do allow use that.
As humans that I teach, I put ahuman stool to then do more
towards experiences rather thanthings because when I wanted to
become astronaut it wasn't justto be astronauts, but that
(11:55):
experience that I would get toreally look at the planet from a
different view, that wasexpedient, that I was grateful
same that I want to findEverest.
My experience is to be able tosee the load and be in that
adventure.
And I experience that thrill andthat's what I'm looking for.
And it's the same sort ofexperience that I got from
working with people thatthrilled to be able to see
(12:17):
someone really reach themaximum.
And so I started being attentionto the experience.
What's the thought of experienceI want to have in life.
And I knew that engineering andscience was that because.
That's not, I wasn't interestedin that anymore.
And so that's why I decided todrop out in the fourth year of
my college.
I didn't do any benchengineering after and started
(12:41):
focusing more on human behaviorand LPN.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (12:44):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
You became aware of anexperience that you liked and
you basically said, I want tosee more of this.
I this is something that, thatlights me up.
This is something that inspiresme, energizes me, all of that
kind of stuff.
What would you say to peoplethat are trying to find an
experience?
(13:05):
The, that does light them up.
Like how do you think they couldfind that
Nishith Shah (13:09):
in life my fundamental belief is that
people already have this to thecontext of binding presupposes
that they don't have it.
And I think I've believed thatthey already have it.
And so to me level it just,they're just disconnected with
these experiences of, it's not amental illness.
So the, of the question then Iwould ask, is there, how do we
(13:30):
really bring that to awarenessthat they already have for me?
I think looking at some of themoments and the school
components is that we have thosedefining moments, that the
moment that really make you feelalive clearly you've got.
Deputy kind of charges you up.
And these are the moments whereyou know that, you can't you
can't sleep, you wake up in themorning, get out of the bed.
(13:53):
And this is the thing that youwant to do the posting and not
really the janitors and peopleget caught up in their tasks.
But it's not about the dots.
It's not about what you'redoing, or it's not about the
things that you do, but when youdo this task, what's the
experience that you have.
What are the emotions thatyou're feeling.
And you wouldn't know thatbecause that's why you were
doing those tasks.
Once you realize that, okay.
(14:15):
When I've been alive, these arethe emotions that I feel.
These are the experiences that Ihave and the things that strikes
me that you're passionate about,then that's when you can start
being more attention to them.
What are some of the, thenthings that you can do, what
career that you can burn thatgives you those experiences.
(14:35):
And it just something that wouldbe one thing.
Cause that's something, anotherthing that people tend to get
caught up that when I do this,I'll get this expedient.
And that's the only thing thatwill give me this experience.
And I start to like video likethat.
There are choices and there areso many ways that you can build
a career to have that experiencemore than life.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (14:52):
I love that.
Absolutely love that.
And there's various people thathave talked about looking at
defining moments reading, startwith why and find your why by
Simon Sinek.
He, in order to find yourpurpose in what, what you're
here on this earth for your whystatement, he calls it.
Looking back to moments in yourlife that are both that
significant, and that could bepositive or that could be
(15:14):
negative, you know it, but it'ssomething that means something
to you that draws emotion andsparks life from you.
Looking at those moments andactually, what are the lessons
from that?
And that's actually part of thebeauty of learning NLP is being
able to explore those kind ofmoments and actually get a
(15:34):
structure that that can betranslated into other contexts
in your future career and howyou make decisions in the
future.
And it's really great that youactually started talking about
defining moments.
I, now I know just before westarted recording, you said you
had a conversation with anothergreat NLP master G Natalie about
(15:55):
defining moments.
Can you talk a little bit about,and I love talking about
structure and how people can usestructure to help them in their
lives and careers.
But I also really enjoysometimes diving into the
content and the context aroundit to share other people's
stories.
So people really get theseTechniques and principles
unconsciously.
(16:15):
Tell me a little bit about someof your defining moments,
whether that's what you'vealready shared with your
conversation with Jean or evenoutside.
Nishith Shah (16:25):
I think one of the biggest defining moment is what
we just spoke about in Don Shaw,realizing.
Just going through the challengeitself, there was so much
counting for me.
I seemed to think that if Ididn't have that challenge, then
I would be in a completelydifferent place.
But one of, one of the thingsthat Jean and I also explored
was this idea that a lot ofdefining moments come from
(16:48):
saying yes to stepping intounknown.
So you have this sense ofvision.
But then say yes to steppinginto unknown and then
opportunities are in genes,thought to is automatically
emerge.
And I think one of those, one ofthose moment, definitely for me
most to stop thinking about.
(17:10):
So when I started doing NLP, Ireally enjoyed it.
And I was the lucky one becauseI felt I'm doing the thing that
I really want to do, and I wantto be able to do in my life.
And yet it felt incongruent.
It felt like there's something,there was something missing and
lots of things that I do.
And I suppose that as I spendmore and more time doing
(17:31):
training or spending a lot oftime in the hotel who said in
the session and that's thatseverely not the kind I ended
imagine I would like to spend mytime.
And I do really love spendingtime in the nature and in the
mountains.
And that's what I want you tospend more time.
And that's where one of mydefining moments also came
(17:52):
because I suddenly went blank.
You know what?
I always had this amazingexperience.
When I go on finding anexpedition.
And learned so much and what ifI could replicate the same
experience for people?
And when I first heard about itwas like, it was one of the
craziest idea.
I don't even know how it's goingto look or what's going to work.
(18:14):
I even thought that, I mightjust be going crazy by thinking
about something that, you know,what if I could do be in No,
one's done this before.
No one ever thought about thisbefore, and I just want that I
was going to with him.
But that is what we spoke about.
And I still that's the life Iwanted to live.
And that's how I wanted to spendmore of my time.
(18:34):
That's where I barely congruent.
And And that's what I barelyconfluent and I.
I started doing an, a B, and asbeing the Hemanez.
And the first time I did that,it was such an exception and
expedience, and that was a womanto have a revelation that, I can
almost call up my passionstogether to move towards the
life that I want to build.
(18:54):
And mountaineering is one thing,and then it'll be is another
thing.
How can I bring that togetherand make it one and create that
oneness within me.
So that I can continue to movetowards the life that I want to
be.
And that, that will step in andbe one of the biggest defining
momentum to be able to stop thatand then lift that.
And I've been doing thatconsistently and it's been such
a great experience.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (19:14):
Yeah.
The book that comes to mind whenyou talk about that, and I think
this is some, a book that Jeanrecommended to read was a bit, I
think it's called build thebridge as you walk on it.
Is that correct?
Cause you will I can't rememberthe author's name, but that
concept of.
Going into the unknown.
And but that's really taking upthe challenge because a lot of
(19:36):
the time in life that that givesyou those defining moments and
you remembered them and the, andit sparks emotions and it
challenges you in it.
You talked earlier about,exploring human potential and,
going into those momentsactually draws out like more of
the human potential that, thatyou never knew existed.
And there's definitely momentsin my life where I've.
(19:58):
Either I've been thrown into it,into the deep end, so to speak
and had to build a bridge orI've chosen to as well.
And and definitely I, when Ithink about defining moments is
always those moments where I'vebeen challenged or I've set
myself a challenge that I didn'tthink I could do.
And the, my, my reserves ofpotentiality somehow come up.
(20:21):
Every time.
And and it's so interesting, youtalking about.
Combining your passions to buildthis bridge of a business, to
build this career that you'redoing.
And there's so many people thatprobably listening that might
not necessarily be happy withtheir career, or they might be
happy with certain elements ofit.
And perhaps they want to combinethose elements with other
(20:44):
skills, maybe other careersthey've had maybe.
Maybe passions may be interestsmaybe just new areas that they
wanted to explore in their life.
As a potential career, how doyou get the courage, first of
all to try out these new things,like these different things that
other people haven't done beforerunning retreats in the
(21:05):
Himalayan mountains which no oneelse was actually doing.
Certainly not in kind ofpersonal development and LP
world.
Like how do you get the courageand bravery to do that?
And like if someone else wasthinking to do a similar thing,
where could they start.
Nishith Shah (21:20):
Just do it.
But of course that's easier saidthan done.
So I guess if by victory, lookat my experience.
When I started, I didn'tgenerally sat down thinking that
this is my fault, and this isthe only thing that I was going
to do.
And this is my video.
My first log, that was a treatwas then let me see, let me
(21:42):
build it.
Let me see what happens.
And then I, they could, I thinkit from them and I only paid
attention to that.
I didn't really pay attention tothinking about it as as the
career or the ring or the botor.
It's like that very famous quotefrom Peter dreams, that you
build it and they will come tothat, that I wanted to just
(22:03):
buried it and do my part.
But they speed and it's designedto build from a design might've
lead betas of event site and putit out there and see if they
come.
And if they don't it's okay.
I know that, it doesn't work,but if they don't, I know that I
learn from it and do somethingelse.
But I just wanted to put it outthere and I think that's how so
(22:23):
that's how I see in domesomething more or less that I
stopped devil.
I have no strings attached toit.
I didn't have to, I didn't putany financial pressure or
anything.
I just wanted to go that.
Okay.
That's just not that there andsee what happened.
And more often than not from myexperience, it has happened.
It's just the metaphor thatcomes to mind is skydiving.
(22:44):
When you skydive you'reliterally jumping out of an
airplane, but you know that theparachute will open and it's
like just taking a jump into itand trusting that the parachute
will open and more often thannot, it does open.
And I guess that's how I startedwith Monash.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (23:03):
Yeah.
There's this element ofprototyping, obviously, do it,
just do it.
But there's also an element of,okay, you don't have to, give up
your entire life to go for this.
You can do, th there isn't anywe can test this out and you can
learn from, and you can startsmall and you can.
Yeah.
So in the case of Careers, forexample, it might be that you're
thinking about a career in thecharity sector.
(23:26):
And so you work in a charityshop while you're at the
weekends one day a week whileyou're working or your job
weekdays and.
See that experience, test itout, see if it lights you up.
And that really goes back to theprinciples of NLP.
One of the models in NLP is it'stote, test operate, test exit.
(23:49):
It's all about testing.
It's about finding out how yourexperiences, when you jump into
these things that you think youhave a hypothesis for are going
to be exciting, passionate,something of your dreams,
something you wanted to try out.
So this idea of just jumping in,I think even at a small scale
and testing things out andlearning from it is so important
(24:12):
not just for your career, butfor your life or whatever you
want to do.
And then going back to the, whatyou said earlier Being aware of
how you experienced that newthing that you're testing out.
And there might be a, oh gosh, Ishouldn't have done that.
In which case you've learnedfrom it, but it also might be a
defining moment which couldpivot your entire life.
So interesting that, sharingthat structure with me in terms
(24:35):
of in congruence and I guessanother way to describe it is
internal misalignment of whatyou're doing in your life.
And you can see it with peoplewho are and this includes me as
well.
Many times in my life who are.
Unconsciously, you can seethey're a little bit, maybe
(24:56):
slouched over, or you could justsee in their facial expressions
when they're talking about acertain thing or project or job
or a person or whatever, butthat they're saying one thing,
but.
Unconsciously, they don't meanit.
And all they're doing something,but they don't necessarily, it's
not in their heart.
It's not something that alignswith them, with their values,
(25:18):
with what they mightunconsciously consider that
their purpose of meaning inlife.
In terms of income group.
What are some things that peoplecan do now if they feel that in
congruent in their job, in theirlife are there certain steps
that they can take right now tostart finding a path to
congruence and really fittinghappier?
Nishith Shah (25:40):
Yeah.
Coming from an IRB, that thefirst question that I would ask
to people is that what is itthat they want to do?
Because I think it's, you'rereally important.
And it's what we said thatsaying yes to the unknown,
committing to the unknown.
It's this into the structure.
It's really important that firstto say yes to congruence and
(26:02):
move towards.
Move towards congruence.
And again, to start reallythinking about a lot of the
elements that we spoke aboutstart with being as some of the
defining moments of your ownlife.
And then that gives you a senseof what are the kinds of
experiences that you want tohave one and mode in life, and
did this expedience as usuallyrelates to emotions that you
(26:23):
want even more than.
So I want to view moreadventures and I want to feed
them all happy around a peoplewho's putting on a few pretty.
And so what have some of thoseemotions that you want to
expedience motor mode in life?
Also, maybe it's important topay attention to what are some
of the emotions that you wannamove away from?
So much invites and that's animportant aspect to pay
(26:44):
attention to the cost.
Often when people are stuck in avideo art that they don't enjoy
the expedience of emotion thatthey do in fact.
And so to know that these arethe emotions to step away from,
I don't want to, I don't want tofeel a bowl of M did.
I don't want to, I don't.
I know that I don't want to.
Be part of something that's verytask oriented.
That kind of gives me all ofthem.
(27:06):
So knowing do want to walk awayfrom this all the time.
But once I think once youactually heard about this, then
you can start looking at, okay,what are some of the things that
you can do that you can that cangive you more and more
expedience or lines that youwant to have?
What are some of the critique onspike?
You said it could be chattedeven it could be smart step on
(27:27):
glean, going to a charity andworking for our day.
If it's if it's building yourown programs and retreats, then
designing the smallest thingthat you can possibly do and
putting it out there toanything, but they didn't
experiences that you want tohave.
What is the thing that you cando that could give you the life
that you want to live.
And within that, what's thesmallest step that netted that
(27:50):
is easy for you to dig, but it'salso rewarding because that
experience is important.
And if that doesn't come, thenyou won't be motivated.
And that's saying, taking thataction and moving towards that
and then doing that more andmore I also, in fact, would
suggest one more, a littledifferent set up a thought
experiment, because once yourecognize the experience that
(28:12):
you want to have, right.
Even if you're not able to dotake a step in dumps with jeans
into cardio, that's it for now,even if you're not able to do
that immediately, or the thingthat you're going to do is at
least.
Being a pension to buy or six or10 things that you can do that
(28:32):
gives you that experience on aday-to-day basis.
So what do I mean by that?
For example, let's say if I wantto experience more and more
freedom or modern wateradventure in life, artistic, one
freedom in life.
I know that if I build thisprogram, that will give me
freedom, but if I'm not able tobuild this program right now,
What I can do is pay attentionto what are the five things in
(28:52):
my day-to-day life that I can dothat gives me expedience of
freedom and it could be as smallthing as just reading a book
that I really enjoy.
And that gives me experience offreedom It could be it could be
doing something that I reallyenjoy, like maybe writing or
half an hour or bringing a videogame.
And that can give you a freedom.
But the more you have itexpedience a freedom that easier
(29:14):
to get you to the video projectin video, because I think what
happens in at one level, themore it's like you get the base
of the blood the more youexperience that freedom, then it
becomes an acceptable to nothave that freedom.
And once it becomes unacceptableto not have that freedom, then
you would want to Like you woulddo you are Ashley that you want
(29:37):
to have in life?
Matt Garrow-Fisher (29:38):
yeah, that's really interesting concept of if
you have a vision for what anactivity or maybe a job or
project that that you spend yourtime doing that that leads you
to freedom, which might be oneof your highest values.
Yeah, of course you can startplanning for that and it might
be a big project but there are,there's a massive scale in terms
(29:58):
of what you can do in order toexperience that emotion of
feeling free from, reading abook all the way to, traveling
the road on a motorbike with amotorbike gang or something
illegal one.
Yes.
And but there's also thisconcept of in my mind of,
(30:18):
you're, you are already free andyou already, all of these
emotions Literally neurochemicalthings that happening in your
body and the thoughts that youput to those emotions are your
thoughts.
And they can dissolve.
If you just let go of thoseemotions and I re I was reading
a book recently letting go by.
David R.
(30:38):
Hawkins and he talks aboutfocusing, basically being
present with whatever emotionthat you have.
And and just being aware of it,whether that's a painful one or.
Or a positive one, like joy, forexample, but just being aware of
it and not being so attached toit, but just being aware of it
and and actually that helps tolet go of having to to, to
(31:01):
either resist emotions or keepgoing towards them.
And I guess I'm having aconflict because a lot of NLP is
about changing your states andand finding a desired state.
And some people would arguethat.
Actually letting go of yourstates and your emotions is is
(31:21):
also another path to, toenlightenment you could call it
or fulfillment.
What would you say to, to thatconcept of letting go of
emotions rather thanconstructing experiences to have
emotions.
Nishith Shah (31:33):
I believe I said it, it's not an either or I
think we can add I think thereare places where.
I would do to consciously thinkabout expedience that I want to
have and the emotions that Iwant to fear.
And then there are places when Iknow that I get too attached to
certain emotions and evenpositive emotions.
Like I get attached to them andI get too attached to it.
(31:55):
And it's important for me to letgo and just be present with
where I am and rather than payattention to those emotions.
So I think it's and just to pickit out and when do I need.
To pay attention to what makes alot of makes a lot of sense,
because I think emotion step inItaly, give me a direction in
terms of the kind of life that Iwant to live.
(32:16):
Kind of go to hear it.
I want to read it.
But at the same time, the momentI get attached to them then
based sometimes starts coming ina way because I'm just shaping
them.
And I think it also comes fromthe fundamental principle of
that.
Email way, like you mentionedjust that, we emotions, I'm not
something hooked up and it's notsomething that we have to chase.
(32:38):
Like we spoke about finding,it's not something we have to
find or get, do we already arethere, we just have to connect
with it.
So in a way, operating from theplace that I'm already, that
person who I want to be allowsme to get the sense of the kind
of life that I'm going to liveand expedience I want to have,
and also do pay attention to theevent.
When do I need to let go?
Because the moment I then go tonice, have a sense of my book,
(33:00):
danger and expanded so much morebecause there's no, or from
again, it's just, that's what weeven defined it as an amended,
Because there's no blockchain onme or anything, I'm just, I am.
And there's no end to thatstatement.
I just am.
That's definitely, it's such anexpansive space to be yet.
Yeah.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (33:18):
One thing that Springs to mind when you
talk about that either lettinggo of emotions or actually
moving towards them throughexperience and having actually
it's about having a balance inmy life.
It really does.
That really does make sense.
It there's something that drivesme to plan an experience that I
know will create an emotion inme and other people.
And that is a real drive toactually take, give me more
(33:40):
motivation and Behave and takeall the steps to achieve that.
And then on the other side, onthe other side, it can if you're
not careful lead to things likeaddictions or just repetitive
behaviors where it could go outof balance, if you're chasing
those emotions too much, one,one example that Springs to mind
when we were in Switzerlandtogether and we we were doing
(34:01):
retreat there.
And there was a pub, I think itwas in lauter brown burner and
the lovely mountain town there.
And it was the pub was famousfor having lots of based on
base, yeah, they walked by, theyflew in these wingsuits every
day and, talking to these peoplein the pub, it was really
interesting how much.
They were chasing that thatfeeling of exhilaration of the
(34:24):
rush of adrenaline and, that iswhat made them feel alive.
And actually, I'm sure there'smany defining moments in their
life when they are flyingthrough the air, over a hundred
miles an hour, I think.
And rushing through nature.
But then when you listen to it,when we both listened to their
stories, there was elements ofso much sacrifice, people,
selling their house and,spending literally hundreds and
(34:46):
hundreds of thousands of dollarsand the relationships they'd
given up and knowing so manythings.
Friends that died such adangerous sport, that they were
really chasing that emotion.
And and so you're totally right.
I think, obviously people dothat in other darker areas like
alcohol addiction and that kindof stuff, but you really hit the
nail on the head.
(35:06):
It's really about having thatbalance and that.
Awareness of when to let go,when you have control to attach
and let go of the experiencesthat you see, can, I think
that's a really fundamentalconcept to, to share with
listeners just to be aware ofthat as well.
Initiate before I ask my lastquestion where can people find
(35:27):
you and connect with you and howcan they go on your retreats and
learn an RP from you?
Like I have,
Nishith Shah (35:33):
I think the easiest way to connect with me
is I think Instagram is the bestplace.
You can find me as Shaw that issuch a edge underscore mission.
ideas.
That's the easiest way toconnect with me.
I've been spending a lot of timeon um, health.
Isn't the end.
That's a great business.
and if you connect with people,you can even have great
(35:53):
conversations.
Same.
You can find me as Nisha Shawyou search quota to find me a
decent, I think the easiest way,but if you want to connect
professionally so you can findthem on LinkedIn, just search
permission, shine, and there'llbe a new team.
My profile.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (36:05):
Perfect.
My last question there.
Shit.
I definitely see you as someonethat lives with passion,
purpose, and balance in yourlife.
I call that.
To band from within to live yourpassion, perhaps in balance And
having done various retreatswith new trainings with you,
traveled around the world withyou and got to know you over
many years.
What do you think is a onething, mishit Charlottes you
(36:26):
think has enabled you to burnfrom within
Nishith Shah (36:27):
So I think one thing, if I were to just say one
specific thing it's grounded inthe experiences that I want to
have more than life.
And what's helped me is it'sit's making it unacceptable to
not have this experience as forme to start out on any.
Any other life that doesn't havethis experiences, if not
(36:48):
acceptable for me.
And I think that's one of thebiggest things that I literally
get less than this, the moment Igo into that addiction.
Okay.
I'm trying to, I'm getting thelive divide that I don't want to
live.
And I think the biggest thingthat's driving me is early on
this strong vision.
That I have to really create onenest on this planet and that
(37:08):
vision drives these experiencesand these experiences allows me
to have that fire within me.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (37:14):
Yeah.
And very powerful vision as wellthat you have and you have
brought so many people togetherfrom around the world, running
things like the global NLPconference, doing your retreats
all over the world.
Running masterclasses with somany different, interesting.
Thought leaders and teachers ofour time.
And keep pursuing that visionthat you have and living it.
(37:37):
It's not just the vision you areactually living it now.
And very interesting abouthaving no tolerance to dropping
that standard of whenever youfeel you're going off a path and
being in congruent with actuallywho you want to be.
You, you feel it and you takeaction and you stop it.
And that is.
That is something that I thinkwe all would strive for and can
(37:58):
do as well.
That's something that I am nowreflecting on how I can
incorporate more of thatstructure into my life.
Initiate.
Thank you so much.
It's been a really fascinatinginterview.
We've talked about a lot ofdifferent things and gone deep
in, in a lot of different areas,which I love.
So thank you very much.
Nishith Shah (38:13):
Thank you so much for having me here and as all of
this congregation that has suchamazing profound assessments,
I've loved having thisconversation with you.
Thank you for having me.
Listen.
Thanks.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (38:24):
Wow.
We talked about a lot ofdifferent things in that
interview.
Yep.
There were some common threadsthat connected the structure of
initiatives thinking process.
Acceptance for the unexpected ingiving up his future career at
NASA and in the current COVIDspread in India.
Focusing on what you can controlin your career in life.
(38:46):
Gives you power to feel personalprogress in a way to contribute.
There are many parts in life wecan be happy.
And so if your initial dreamdoesn't work out by pondering
the structure underneath whatyou wanted from that initial
life path, you can generatealternative career or life plans
(39:07):
that serve fulfilling those samecore values, desired feelings
and purpose.
Check out the show notes forways to find out more about NLP
neuro-linguistic program.
And designing your lifethinking.
And if you enjoyed this talk.
Go and leave a review on ratethis podcast.com/burn from
(39:27):
within that's rate.
This podcast.com forward slashburn from within.
Stay updated with more inspiringinterviews by hitting the
subscribe or follow button.
Now, when your player.
And until next time live withpassion purpose and balance and
burn from
On this week's episode, I have mishit
Shaw founder of thought labs andco-founder of the global NLP
conference, India.
And someone I've worked with intraining people, how to become
aware of their own minds sourcecode.
And the structure of our humanexperience.
Taking people beyond theircomfort zones at retreats in the
(00:52):
Swiss outs and the IndianHimalayas and elsewhere around
the world.
This conversation is all aboutdealing with unexpected events
in life.
Like the very present COVIDstrain in June, 2021 and
lockdowns in India whereinitiate is based.
And also in his own career,which didn't go as he expected,
it would.
(01:13):
There is a lot of principlesaround ways of thinking in this
conversation about career changeand life change.
And I hope you gain as muchwisdom around how to think as I
did from this.
The full show notes and videosof other interviews are
available@burnfromwithin.comfull session interviews.
So listen all the way through.
(01:34):
And enjoy I'm really excited to.
Share your story and some of thekind of structure around your
thinking today and in particularright now you're in India and,
there is a, obviously a globalpandemic, but it's particularly
the Indian strain of theviruses.
Everyone's been seeing it aroundthe world on the news, and it's
(01:54):
particularly tough in India inthe communities there.
Before we get into like in, intodepth about your life what, how
have you found this experience?
Living in India?
Yourself and, the people thatyou know, and I guess what
lessons have you learned in yourown life, from this experience
that you might be able to takefrom this going out of the
(02:16):
country?
Nishith Shah (02:16):
Yeah, it's been difficult for short.
Specifically because I didn'tknow this happened because I was
on a, in the mountains on anexpedition.
And so I was up, and we didn'thave network with the beads,
then it was challenging.
But when I did go to themountains in India, there was
nothing.
We had 3000 cases a day and thiswas a big country with this
(02:36):
population.
They don't need was nothing.
And when I came back after threeweeks and fished on the phone,
the first thing that I saw lostthat, that to the powers that
don't do 400,000 in just theamount of the weeks.
And then I began to make morehappen.
How did it all of a sudden meanit almost been like hell break,
broken, loose.
And my expedience in themountain was that I was looking
(02:59):
forward to coming back becausewe had really difficult time in
the market because of snowstorm.
And I was really looking forwardto coming back home and duty,
just, getting a massage and thengoing to the spa and all of
that.
But I'm new to the game back inthe lockdown and everything was
shut.
And so I started, like I wasmoving from one challenge to
(03:21):
another challenge, but maybehaving a pretty built, it was
like just moving from one toanother.
And.
That was particularlychallenging because one, I
didn't see it coming and Iwasn't expecting it.
And it's just something thathappened.
And the biggest lesson that Icouldn't learn from this was
acceptance.
That was just mentioning nothingI would do all day.
(03:44):
Initially I did feel frustratedbecause I couldn't help people.
I couldn't do it.
Got it.
Going a bit sad, even looking atthe news and who shouldn't be
here.
Of course.
Every now and then I would healthat someone's off the way in
someone's come onsite.
And he just and I couldn't doanything to as possible door and
it was just frustrating.
(04:04):
The most important thing thatcame out of this was just
acceptance that all I can extentthis and.
What are some of the things thatare in my control that I can be
attention to and focus on that.
So we started doing some supportsessions for people, and so on
the paying attention to my thethings that I can control and
(04:25):
things that I can pay attentionto.
And that accept that this iswhat it is.
Then we can just do the best toshift it and change it.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (04:32):
Great lessons to be learned and your
master trainer of NLP and veryaware of the structure of your
experience and what's going onand to attuned to recognizing
that pattern of acceptance in,in this moment right now during
COVID in India A number of yearsago, before you even started
learning NLP you got offered aplace at NASA the space agency
(04:57):
and unfortunately due to somepersonal challenges, you weren't
able to.
Take up that career.
And as you talk about acceptancenow and with this kind of
clarity of thought and beingaware of structure of your
experience through, throughneuro-linguistic programming
back then, you didn't have thatawareness, that definitely not
that training.
(05:17):
How did you deal with.
I guess that career that wasoffered you almost been being
taken away.
And how did you respond?
And I guess a follow-up to thatis if you were in that same
situation now, what would you dodifferent?
Nishith Shah (05:31):
So in that moment as possible, just to give the
context of this internship inNagasaki provoke, the project
that I've worked on and yeah.
That was one of the biggestterror giant for me to live my
mind at that point due to eitherbecome astronauts on tribute to
the space exploration.
That's what gives to what Iread.
We want to become astronaut.
And I generally bless you thatand look towards that and just
(05:55):
couldn't get that at that point.
I definitely didn't know thestructure of acceptance at that
point was angry.
And I was frustrated becauseit's something I could have
done.
It's something that wants thatfor me to do it and I couldn't
do it.
And that was really difficultand frustrating So I didn't
super closely with engineering,but it took me a couple of years
(06:18):
to really deal with it.
Good that by that time I lostinterest in engineering.
Cause in my mind, like thebooklets to do engineering loss
to become an astronaut.
And if I can't be an astronaut,then what's the book was of
doing engineering anymore.
And so my interest inengineering was completely lost
and and yeah, took, we do theyear barely focus on that.
(06:41):
Really can get ordered.
If I, if you ask me, what wouldI do now?
Going back to the samesituation.
I think it's learning thisacceptance that we need to be
heads to really accept it and tobe able to focus on, because the
thing that I've learned in lifeis that there's just not one
vision.
That'd be habitus humans.
(07:03):
If you dig deep, then I'm surethat all of us have one to
position my differentexperiences and things that
you're passionate about.
That's something I didn't knowthen, but I know now the cost,
as much as I ended up beingastronaut, it wasn't anything in
the more, and it was only thingin the world at that time.
But right.
It wasn't that I learned that Icould build a new vision.
(07:26):
I could follow something else,then I'm interested in something
else that I'm passionate about.
And again, at that time, I loveand share what that was.
But as I explored and I continueexploring, and I was lucky
because I kind of John step onthis youth organization and they
used to work with professionalconcentration.
And I found my new calling inour form when new passion and.
(07:50):
If I were to go back to thatsituation, now I'll remember
this, that there's just morethan one thing in life.
There can be multiple thingsthat I can focus on.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (08:00):
Yeah, I very much resonate with that.
I did some training in the lastfew months with Stanford
university professors calleddesigning your life is around
design thinking.
And one of the concepts theytalk about in life design and
career design is what's calledOdyssey planning and it's a
simple exercise.
I can share it in the shownotes, but it basically.
(08:21):
You project your life over thenext five years and plan what
you want to do for the next fiveyears.
And you write down, you want todo this year to open a
restaurant and year three orgrow it.
And, you'll become the nextsubway, but tastier and that
kind of stuff.
And But then you do that entireexercise for one set five years,
but then you do it again for anew five years and then you do
(08:44):
it one more time and what itdoes is it opens up choice that
sometimes life.
Gets in the way.
And there's things that are outof your control that happened,
and you do have alternativesand, there are many paths to
fulfillment, happiness, joypassion purpose and you can plan
for it as well.
If you really are consciouslyaware of what you want and what
(09:04):
you want to contribute to theworld, and then you can do that.
And so with With choice and thiskind of realization of choice,
you realizing that was a passionthat you had it's an
interesting, and you have anunusual career path compared to
a lot of people that, go tocollege, Then they go into their
nine to five.
Often corporate roles and dothat career you chose a, what
(09:27):
seemed like it seems like apassion in NLP.
How did you decide for that tobe your career and, did it
suddenly become a passion or wasit through practice?
Like how did you know that, thatwas your passion and why did you
go after it as a career?
Cause it's quite, I would saythat's a risk is an unusual not
safe choice.
Nishith Shah (09:46):
Yeah, I think the biggest city, then I ran doctor
and it'd be POS wave.
It goes up the expedience withNASA because I was so angry and
frustrated.
And and I think the frustrationcame from the fact that, most
people just dream about it and Ihad it and I couldn't get it.
And I couldn't get away with it.
I couldn't really begin all theway to get her with it.
(10:08):
And then like always with someof these things that happen,
someone came to me and say, Hey,you know what?
You should go and do NRB.
And that would really help you.
And so I went and did my an OBequals your environment.
And it didn't really make a lotof sense and it didn't really
help me.
It was quite a profoundexperience that I had.
(10:29):
A lot of things didn't makesense in the bus time that I did
it took me a while to get usedto it, but I did know that there
was something in this and morethan that, I really like the
idea of exploring humanpotential.
I think that's part of thestructure of the way I create
vision.
Most of my goals and likebecoming an astronaut is.
Pushing human would ensure goingto places that are as humanity
(10:52):
we haven't gone before.
And that was how I had createdmy vision currently, because I
couldn't become and big, thenext best thing is to find
evidence.
And I think that also comes fromthe place of the daily pushing
my my limits and humanpotential.
And so I think the general, myvision creation is.
Under the underlying don't haveit.
(11:13):
Is that, how can I do any Bush?
My human Mike would ensure them,how can I really, one of my
comfort zone and and I thinkdoing an, it would be gave me
that expedience.
And, but it also gave me thestructured.
It gives me the step by stepprocess of me hoping others do
the same.
And I think that was reallyexciting for me.
That was really fascinating tobe able to do that.
(11:34):
But other than that, all ofthose to really explore that
their mind and the limits.
And I I also do allow use that.
As humans that I teach, I put ahuman stool to then do more
towards experiences rather thanthings because when I wanted to
become astronaut it wasn't justto be astronauts, but that
(11:55):
experience that I would get toreally look at the planet from a
different view, that wasexpedient, that I was grateful
same that I want to findEverest.
My experience is to be able tosee the load and be in that
adventure.
And I experience that thrill andthat's what I'm looking for.
And it's the same sort ofexperience that I got from
working with people thatthrilled to be able to see
(12:17):
someone really reach themaximum.
And so I started being attentionto the experience.
What's the thought of experienceI want to have in life.
And I knew that engineering andscience was that because.
That's not, I wasn't interestedin that anymore.
And so that's why I decided todrop out in the fourth year of
my college.
I didn't do any benchengineering after and started
(12:41):
focusing more on human behaviorand LPN.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (12:44):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
You became aware of anexperience that you liked and
you basically said, I want tosee more of this.
I this is something that, thatlights me up.
This is something that inspiresme, energizes me, all of that
kind of stuff.
What would you say to peoplethat are trying to find an
experience?
(13:05):
The, that does light them up.
Like how do you think they couldfind that
Nishith Shah (13:09):
in life my fundamental belief is that
people already have this to thecontext of binding presupposes
that they don't have it.
And I think I've believed thatthey already have it.
And so to me level it just,they're just disconnected with
these experiences of, it's not amental illness.
So the, of the question then Iwould ask, is there, how do we
(13:30):
really bring that to awarenessthat they already have for me?
I think looking at some of themoments and the school
components is that we have thosedefining moments, that the
moment that really make you feelalive clearly you've got.
Deputy kind of charges you up.
And these are the moments whereyou know that, you can't you
can't sleep, you wake up in themorning, get out of the bed.
(13:53):
And this is the thing that youwant to do the posting and not
really the janitors and peopleget caught up in their tasks.
But it's not about the dots.
It's not about what you'redoing, or it's not about the
things that you do, but when youdo this task, what's the
experience that you have.
What are the emotions thatyou're feeling.
And you wouldn't know thatbecause that's why you were
doing those tasks.
Once you realize that, okay.
(14:15):
When I've been alive, these arethe emotions that I feel.
These are the experiences that Ihave and the things that strikes
me that you're passionate about,then that's when you can start
being more attention to them.
What are some of the, thenthings that you can do, what
career that you can burn thatgives you those experiences.
(14:35):
And it just something that wouldbe one thing.
Cause that's something, anotherthing that people tend to get
caught up that when I do this,I'll get this expedient.
And that's the only thing thatwill give me this experience.
And I start to like video likethat.
There are choices and there areso many ways that you can build
a career to have that experiencemore than life.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (14:52):
I love that.
Absolutely love that.
And there's various people thathave talked about looking at
defining moments reading, startwith why and find your why by
Simon Sinek.
He, in order to find yourpurpose in what, what you're
here on this earth for your whystatement, he calls it.
Looking back to moments in yourlife that are both that
significant, and that could bepositive or that could be
(15:14):
negative, you know it, but it'ssomething that means something
to you that draws emotion andsparks life from you.
Looking at those moments andactually, what are the lessons
from that?
And that's actually part of thebeauty of learning NLP is being
able to explore those kind ofmoments and actually get a
(15:34):
structure that that can betranslated into other contexts
in your future career and howyou make decisions in the
future.
And it's really great that youactually started talking about
defining moments.
I, now I know just before westarted recording, you said you
had a conversation with anothergreat NLP master G Natalie about
(15:55):
defining moments.
Can you talk a little bit about,and I love talking about
structure and how people can usestructure to help them in their
lives and careers.
But I also really enjoysometimes diving into the
content and the context aroundit to share other people's
stories.
So people really get theseTechniques and principles
unconsciously.
(16:15):
Tell me a little bit about someof your defining moments,
whether that's what you'vealready shared with your
conversation with Jean or evenoutside.
Nishith Shah (16:25):
I think one of the biggest defining moment is what
we just spoke about in Don Shaw,realizing.
Just going through the challengeitself, there was so much
counting for me.
I seemed to think that if Ididn't have that challenge, then
I would be in a completelydifferent place.
But one of, one of the thingsthat Jean and I also explored
was this idea that a lot ofdefining moments come from
(16:48):
saying yes to stepping intounknown.
So you have this sense ofvision.
But then say yes to steppinginto unknown and then
opportunities are in genes,thought to is automatically
emerge.
And I think one of those, one ofthose moment, definitely for me
most to stop thinking about.
(17:10):
So when I started doing NLP, Ireally enjoyed it.
And I was the lucky one becauseI felt I'm doing the thing that
I really want to do, and I wantto be able to do in my life.
And yet it felt incongruent.
It felt like there's something,there was something missing and
lots of things that I do.
And I suppose that as I spendmore and more time doing
(17:31):
training or spending a lot oftime in the hotel who said in
the session and that's thatseverely not the kind I ended
imagine I would like to spend mytime.
And I do really love spendingtime in the nature and in the
mountains.
And that's what I want you tospend more time.
And that's where one of mydefining moments also came
(17:52):
because I suddenly went blank.
You know what?
I always had this amazingexperience.
When I go on finding anexpedition.
And learned so much and what ifI could replicate the same
experience for people?
And when I first heard about itwas like, it was one of the
craziest idea.
I don't even know how it's goingto look or what's going to work.
(18:14):
I even thought that, I mightjust be going crazy by thinking
about something that, you know,what if I could do be in No,
one's done this before.
No one ever thought about thisbefore, and I just want that I
was going to with him.
But that is what we spoke about.
And I still that's the life Iwanted to live.
And that's how I wanted to spendmore of my time.
(18:34):
That's where I barely congruent.
And And that's what I barelyconfluent and I.
I started doing an, a B, and asbeing the Hemanez.
And the first time I did that,it was such an exception and
expedience, and that was a womanto have a revelation that, I can
almost call up my passionstogether to move towards the
life that I want to build.
(18:54):
And mountaineering is one thing,and then it'll be is another
thing.
How can I bring that togetherand make it one and create that
oneness within me.
So that I can continue to movetowards the life that I want to
be.
And that, that will step in andbe one of the biggest defining
momentum to be able to stop thatand then lift that.
And I've been doing thatconsistently and it's been such
a great experience.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (19:14):
Yeah.
The book that comes to mind whenyou talk about that, and I think
this is some, a book that Jeanrecommended to read was a bit, I
think it's called build thebridge as you walk on it.
Is that correct?
Cause you will I can't rememberthe author's name, but that
concept of.
Going into the unknown.
And but that's really taking upthe challenge because a lot of
(19:36):
the time in life that that givesyou those defining moments and
you remembered them and the, andit sparks emotions and it
challenges you in it.
You talked earlier about,exploring human potential and,
going into those momentsactually draws out like more of
the human potential that, thatyou never knew existed.
And there's definitely momentsin my life where I've.
(19:58):
Either I've been thrown into it,into the deep end, so to speak
and had to build a bridge orI've chosen to as well.
And and definitely I, when Ithink about defining moments is
always those moments where I'vebeen challenged or I've set
myself a challenge that I didn'tthink I could do.
And the, my, my reserves ofpotentiality somehow come up.
(20:21):
Every time.
And and it's so interesting, youtalking about.
Combining your passions to buildthis bridge of a business, to
build this career that you'redoing.
And there's so many people thatprobably listening that might
not necessarily be happy withtheir career, or they might be
happy with certain elements ofit.
And perhaps they want to combinethose elements with other
(20:44):
skills, maybe other careersthey've had maybe.
Maybe passions may be interestsmaybe just new areas that they
wanted to explore in their life.
As a potential career, how doyou get the courage, first of
all to try out these new things,like these different things that
other people haven't done beforerunning retreats in the
(21:05):
Himalayan mountains which no oneelse was actually doing.
Certainly not in kind ofpersonal development and LP
world.
Like how do you get the courageand bravery to do that?
And like if someone else wasthinking to do a similar thing,
where could they start.
Nishith Shah (21:20):
Just do it.
But of course that's easier saidthan done.
So I guess if by victory, lookat my experience.
When I started, I didn'tgenerally sat down thinking that
this is my fault, and this isthe only thing that I was going
to do.
And this is my video.
My first log, that was a treatwas then let me see, let me
(21:42):
build it.
Let me see what happens.
And then I, they could, I thinkit from them and I only paid
attention to that.
I didn't really pay attention tothinking about it as as the
career or the ring or the botor.
It's like that very famous quotefrom Peter dreams, that you
build it and they will come tothat, that I wanted to just
(22:03):
buried it and do my part.
But they speed and it's designedto build from a design might've
lead betas of event site and putit out there and see if they
come.
And if they don't it's okay.
I know that, it doesn't work,but if they don't, I know that I
learn from it and do somethingelse.
But I just wanted to put it outthere and I think that's how so
(22:23):
that's how I see in domesomething more or less that I
stopped devil.
I have no strings attached toit.
I didn't have to, I didn't putany financial pressure or
anything.
I just wanted to go that.
Okay.
That's just not that there andsee what happened.
And more often than not from myexperience, it has happened.
It's just the metaphor thatcomes to mind is skydiving.
(22:44):
When you skydive you'reliterally jumping out of an
airplane, but you know that theparachute will open and it's
like just taking a jump into itand trusting that the parachute
will open and more often thannot, it does open.
And I guess that's how I startedwith Monash.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (23:03):
Yeah.
There's this element ofprototyping, obviously, do it,
just do it.
But there's also an element of,okay, you don't have to, give up
your entire life to go for this.
You can do, th there isn't anywe can test this out and you can
learn from, and you can startsmall and you can.
Yeah.
So in the case of Careers, forexample, it might be that you're
thinking about a career in thecharity sector.
(23:26):
And so you work in a charityshop while you're at the
weekends one day a week whileyou're working or your job
weekdays and.
See that experience, test itout, see if it lights you up.
And that really goes back to theprinciples of NLP.
One of the models in NLP is it'stote, test operate, test exit.
(23:49):
It's all about testing.
It's about finding out how yourexperiences, when you jump into
these things that you think youhave a hypothesis for are going
to be exciting, passionate,something of your dreams,
something you wanted to try out.
So this idea of just jumping in,I think even at a small scale
and testing things out andlearning from it is so important
(24:12):
not just for your career, butfor your life or whatever you
want to do.
And then going back to the, whatyou said earlier Being aware of
how you experienced that newthing that you're testing out.
And there might be a, oh gosh, Ishouldn't have done that.
In which case you've learnedfrom it, but it also might be a
defining moment which couldpivot your entire life.
So interesting that, sharingthat structure with me in terms
(24:35):
of in congruence and I guessanother way to describe it is
internal misalignment of whatyou're doing in your life.
And you can see it with peoplewho are and this includes me as
well.
Many times in my life who are.
Unconsciously, you can seethey're a little bit, maybe
(24:56):
slouched over, or you could justsee in their facial expressions
when they're talking about acertain thing or project or job
or a person or whatever, butthat they're saying one thing,
but.
Unconsciously, they don't meanit.
And all they're doing something,but they don't necessarily, it's
not in their heart.
It's not something that alignswith them, with their values,
(25:18):
with what they mightunconsciously consider that
their purpose of meaning inlife.
In terms of income group.
What are some things that peoplecan do now if they feel that in
congruent in their job, in theirlife are there certain steps
that they can take right now tostart finding a path to
congruence and really fittinghappier?
Nishith Shah (25:40):
Yeah.
Coming from an IRB, that thefirst question that I would ask
to people is that what is itthat they want to do?
Because I think it's, you'rereally important.
And it's what we said thatsaying yes to the unknown,
committing to the unknown.
It's this into the structure.
It's really important that firstto say yes to congruence and
(26:02):
move towards.
Move towards congruence.
And again, to start reallythinking about a lot of the
elements that we spoke aboutstart with being as some of the
defining moments of your ownlife.
And then that gives you a senseof what are the kinds of
experiences that you want tohave one and mode in life, and
did this expedience as usuallyrelates to emotions that you
(26:23):
want even more than.
So I want to view moreadventures and I want to feed
them all happy around a peoplewho's putting on a few pretty.
And so what have some of thoseemotions that you want to
expedience motor mode in life?
Also, maybe it's important topay attention to what are some
of the emotions that you wannamove away from?
So much invites and that's animportant aspect to pay
(26:44):
attention to the cost.
Often when people are stuck in avideo art that they don't enjoy
the expedience of emotion thatthey do in fact.
And so to know that these arethe emotions to step away from,
I don't want to, I don't want tofeel a bowl of M did.
I don't want to, I don't.
I know that I don't want to.
Be part of something that's verytask oriented.
That kind of gives me all ofthem.
(27:06):
So knowing do want to walk awayfrom this all the time.
But once I think once youactually heard about this, then
you can start looking at, okay,what are some of the things that
you can do that you can that cangive you more and more
expedience or lines that youwant to have?
What are some of the critique onspike?
You said it could be chattedeven it could be smart step on
(27:27):
glean, going to a charity andworking for our day.
If it's if it's building yourown programs and retreats, then
designing the smallest thingthat you can possibly do and
putting it out there toanything, but they didn't
experiences that you want tohave.
What is the thing that you cando that could give you the life
that you want to live.
And within that, what's thesmallest step that netted that
(27:50):
is easy for you to dig, but it'salso rewarding because that
experience is important.
And if that doesn't come, thenyou won't be motivated.
And that's saying, taking thataction and moving towards that
and then doing that more andmore I also, in fact, would
suggest one more, a littledifferent set up a thought
experiment, because once yourecognize the experience that
(28:12):
you want to have, right.
Even if you're not able to dotake a step in dumps with jeans
into cardio, that's it for now,even if you're not able to do
that immediately, or the thingthat you're going to do is at
least.
Being a pension to buy or six or10 things that you can do that
(28:32):
gives you that experience on aday-to-day basis.
So what do I mean by that?
For example, let's say if I wantto experience more and more
freedom or modern wateradventure in life, artistic, one
freedom in life.
I know that if I build thisprogram, that will give me
freedom, but if I'm not able tobuild this program right now,
What I can do is pay attentionto what are the five things in
(28:52):
my day-to-day life that I can dothat gives me expedience of
freedom and it could be as smallthing as just reading a book
that I really enjoy.
And that gives me experience offreedom It could be it could be
doing something that I reallyenjoy, like maybe writing or
half an hour or bringing a videogame.
And that can give you a freedom.
But the more you have itexpedience a freedom that easier
(29:14):
to get you to the video projectin video, because I think what
happens in at one level, themore it's like you get the base
of the blood the more youexperience that freedom, then it
becomes an acceptable to nothave that freedom.
And once it becomes unacceptableto not have that freedom, then
you would want to Like you woulddo you are Ashley that you want
(29:37):
to have in life?
Matt Garrow-Fisher (29:38):
yeah, that's really interesting concept of if
you have a vision for what anactivity or maybe a job or
project that that you spend yourtime doing that that leads you
to freedom, which might be oneof your highest values.
Yeah, of course you can startplanning for that and it might
be a big project but there are,there's a massive scale in terms
(29:58):
of what you can do in order toexperience that emotion of
feeling free from, reading abook all the way to, traveling
the road on a motorbike with amotorbike gang or something
illegal one.
Yes.
And but there's also thisconcept of in my mind of,
(30:18):
you're, you are already free andyou already, all of these
emotions Literally neurochemicalthings that happening in your
body and the thoughts that youput to those emotions are your
thoughts.
And they can dissolve.
If you just let go of thoseemotions and I re I was reading
a book recently letting go by.
David R.
(30:38):
Hawkins and he talks aboutfocusing, basically being
present with whatever emotionthat you have.
And and just being aware of it,whether that's a painful one or.
Or a positive one, like joy, forexample, but just being aware of
it and not being so attached toit, but just being aware of it
and and actually that helps tolet go of having to to, to
(31:01):
either resist emotions or keepgoing towards them.
And I guess I'm having aconflict because a lot of NLP is
about changing your states andand finding a desired state.
And some people would arguethat.
Actually letting go of yourstates and your emotions is is
(31:21):
also another path to, toenlightenment you could call it
or fulfillment.
What would you say to, to thatconcept of letting go of
emotions rather thanconstructing experiences to have
emotions.
Nishith Shah (31:33):
I believe I said it, it's not an either or I
think we can add I think thereare places where.
I would do to consciously thinkabout expedience that I want to
have and the emotions that Iwant to fear.
And then there are places when Iknow that I get too attached to
certain emotions and evenpositive emotions.
Like I get attached to them andI get too attached to it.
(31:55):
And it's important for me to letgo and just be present with
where I am and rather than payattention to those emotions.
So I think it's and just to pickit out and when do I need.
To pay attention to what makes alot of makes a lot of sense,
because I think emotion step inItaly, give me a direction in
terms of the kind of life that Iwant to live.
(32:16):
Kind of go to hear it.
I want to read it.
But at the same time, the momentI get attached to them then
based sometimes starts coming ina way because I'm just shaping
them.
And I think it also comes fromthe fundamental principle of
that.
Email way, like you mentionedjust that, we emotions, I'm not
something hooked up and it's notsomething that we have to chase.
(32:38):
Like we spoke about finding,it's not something we have to
find or get, do we already arethere, we just have to connect
with it.
So in a way, operating from theplace that I'm already, that
person who I want to be allowsme to get the sense of the kind
of life that I'm going to liveand expedience I want to have,
and also do pay attention to theevent.
When do I need to let go?
Because the moment I then go tonice, have a sense of my book,
(33:00):
danger and expanded so much morebecause there's no, or from
again, it's just, that's what weeven defined it as an amended,
Because there's no blockchain onme or anything, I'm just, I am.
And there's no end to thatstatement.
I just am.
That's definitely, it's such anexpansive space to be yet.
Yeah.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (33:18):
One thing that Springs to mind when you
talk about that either lettinggo of emotions or actually
moving towards them throughexperience and having actually
it's about having a balance inmy life.
It really does.
That really does make sense.
It there's something that drivesme to plan an experience that I
know will create an emotion inme and other people.
And that is a real drive toactually take, give me more
(33:40):
motivation and Behave and takeall the steps to achieve that.
And then on the other side, onthe other side, it can if you're
not careful lead to things likeaddictions or just repetitive
behaviors where it could go outof balance, if you're chasing
those emotions too much, one,one example that Springs to mind
when we were in Switzerlandtogether and we we were doing
(34:01):
retreat there.
And there was a pub, I think itwas in lauter brown burner and
the lovely mountain town there.
And it was the pub was famousfor having lots of based on
base, yeah, they walked by, theyflew in these wingsuits every
day and, talking to these peoplein the pub, it was really
interesting how much.
They were chasing that thatfeeling of exhilaration of the
(34:24):
rush of adrenaline and, that iswhat made them feel alive.
And actually, I'm sure there'smany defining moments in their
life when they are flyingthrough the air, over a hundred
miles an hour, I think.
And rushing through nature.
But then when you listen to it,when we both listened to their
stories, there was elements ofso much sacrifice, people,
selling their house and,spending literally hundreds and
(34:46):
hundreds of thousands of dollarsand the relationships they'd
given up and knowing so manythings.
Friends that died such adangerous sport, that they were
really chasing that emotion.
And and so you're totally right.
I think, obviously people dothat in other darker areas like
alcohol addiction and that kindof stuff, but you really hit the
nail on the head.
(35:06):
It's really about having thatbalance and that.
Awareness of when to let go,when you have control to attach
and let go of the experiencesthat you see, can, I think
that's a really fundamentalconcept to, to share with
listeners just to be aware ofthat as well.
Initiate before I ask my lastquestion where can people find
(35:27):
you and connect with you and howcan they go on your retreats and
learn an RP from you?
Like I have,
Nishith Shah (35:33):
I think the easiest way to connect with me
is I think Instagram is the bestplace.
You can find me as Shaw that issuch a edge underscore mission.
ideas.
That's the easiest way toconnect with me.
I've been spending a lot of timeon um, health.
Isn't the end.
That's a great business.
and if you connect with people,you can even have great
(35:53):
conversations.
Same.
You can find me as Nisha Shawyou search quota to find me a
decent, I think the easiest way,but if you want to connect
professionally so you can findthem on LinkedIn, just search
permission, shine, and there'llbe a new team.
My profile.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (36:05):
Perfect.
My last question there.
Shit.
I definitely see you as someonethat lives with passion,
purpose, and balance in yourlife.
I call that.
To band from within to live yourpassion, perhaps in balance And
having done various retreatswith new trainings with you,
traveled around the world withyou and got to know you over
many years.
What do you think is a onething, mishit Charlottes you
(36:26):
think has enabled you to burnfrom within
Nishith Shah (36:27):
So I think one thing, if I were to just say one
specific thing it's grounded inthe experiences that I want to
have more than life.
And what's helped me is it'sit's making it unacceptable to
not have this experience as forme to start out on any.
Any other life that doesn't havethis experiences, if not
(36:48):
acceptable for me.
And I think that's one of thebiggest things that I literally
get less than this, the moment Igo into that addiction.
Okay.
I'm trying to, I'm getting thelive divide that I don't want to
live.
And I think the biggest thingthat's driving me is early on
this strong vision.
That I have to really create onenest on this planet and that
(37:08):
vision drives these experiencesand these experiences allows me
to have that fire within me.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (37:14):
Yeah.
And very powerful vision as wellthat you have and you have
brought so many people togetherfrom around the world, running
things like the global NLPconference, doing your retreats
all over the world.
Running masterclasses with somany different, interesting.
Thought leaders and teachers ofour time.
And keep pursuing that visionthat you have and living it.
(37:37):
It's not just the vision you areactually living it now.
And very interesting abouthaving no tolerance to dropping
that standard of whenever youfeel you're going off a path and
being in congruent with actuallywho you want to be.
You, you feel it and you takeaction and you stop it.
And that is.
That is something that I thinkwe all would strive for and can
(37:58):
do as well.
That's something that I am nowreflecting on how I can
incorporate more of thatstructure into my life.
Initiate.
Thank you so much.
It's been a really fascinatinginterview.
We've talked about a lot ofdifferent things and gone deep
in, in a lot of different areas,which I love.
So thank you very much.
Nishith Shah (38:13):
Thank you so much for having me here and as all of
this congregation that has suchamazing profound assessments,
I've loved having thisconversation with you.
Thank you for having me.
Listen.
Thanks.
Matt Garrow-Fisher (38:24):
Wow.
We talked about a lot ofdifferent things in that
interview.
Yep.
There were some common threadsthat connected the structure of
initiatives thinking process.
Acceptance for the unexpected ingiving up his future career at
NASA and in the current COVIDspread in India.
Focusing on what you can controlin your career in life.
(38:46):
Gives you power to feel personalprogress in a way to contribute.
There are many parts in life wecan be happy.
And so if your initial dreamdoesn't work out by pondering
the structure underneath whatyou wanted from that initial
life path, you can generatealternative career or life plans
(39:07):
that serve fulfilling those samecore values, desired feelings
and purpose.
Check out the show notes forways to find out more about NLP
neuro-linguistic program.
And designing your lifethinking.
And if you enjoyed this talk.
Go and leave a review on ratethis podcast.com/burn from
(39:27):
within that's rate.
This podcast.com forward slashburn from within.
Stay updated with more inspiringinterviews by hitting the
subscribe or follow button.
Now, when your player.
And until next time live withpassion purpose and balance and
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