August 22, 2023 • 42 mins
Have you ever felt drained, overworked, and yet still unappreciated by your clients?
That's where Chanel Robe found herself, not once, but twice. Now, she passionately advocates for balancing client needs with personal boundaries.
In our conversation, Chanel shares her own journey from burnout to brilliance, illustrating why setting healthy boundaries in business and life with grace is so critical.
Boundaries that honor not just the client, but also the business and your personal needs.
She shares her three-pronged approach to setting graceful boundaries, and shares how setting boundaries in contractual and retainer relationships can nurture a healthy client-business relationship.
We navigate through the complexities of difficult conversations, exploring how understanding and empathy can deflect conflict.
Guest bio:
Chanel Robe is the owner of The Robe Way & an authority on achieving customer success with less work. She helps business owners run profitable, impactful businesses and maintain client relationships without sacrificing their personal boundaries or quality of life. As a 2x burnout survivor and former people-pleaser, she is a speaker, author & passionate advocate for serving others while honoring yourself. On a regular day, you’ll find her traveling, belting out random songs, smiling contagiously, or lifting others up.
Connect with Chanel: https://en.gravatar.com/chanelrobie
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And if you’re ready to dive even deeper, grab a copy of my book Bite-Sized Blasphemy and ignite your inner fire to do life and business your way.
The Business Blasphemy Podcast is sponsored by Corporate Rehab® Strategic Consulting.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Business Blast for Me podcast,
where we question the sacredtruths of the online business
space and the reverence withwhich they're held.
I'm your host, Sarah Kahn,speaker, strategic consultant
and BS busting badass.
Join me each week as wechallenge the norms, trends and
overall bullshit status quo ofentrepreneurship to uncover what
it really takes to build thebusiness that you want to build
(00:23):
in a way that honors you, yourlife and your vision for what's
possible, and maybe piss off afew gurus along the way.
So if you're ready to commitBusiness Blast for Me, let's do
it.
Hello, hello, blast femurs.
How are you?
I hope you're having awonderful week.
I am very excited to have thisconversation with Chanel.
(00:45):
She is my guest today and we'regoing to be talking about
something that a lot of people,a lot a lot of people, struggle
with, and that is boundaries.
Hi, Chanel.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Hi, I'm so excited to be here.
I'm so excited to have you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
This is going to be a good conversation.
So Chanel and I have beenconnected for a while and we had
a conversation maybe a week orso ago.
We had a coffee chat.
It was really, really fun, itwas very casual and we started
to talk about boundaries and theway she talked about how she
sets boundaries in business.
I was like you need to come onthe podcast, because this is a
conversation a lot of peopleneed to be privy to, and so
(01:23):
that's what we're going to startwith today, and then we'll just
see where it goes, because, youknow, this show is usually just
we fly by the seat of our pantsand sometimes it's just a giant
chaos, monkey.
So let me introduce her formallyto Chanel Robes, the owner of
the robe way and an authority onachieving customer success with
less work.
She helps business owners runprofitable, impactful businesses
(01:44):
and maintain clientrelationships without
sacrificing their personalboundaries or quality of life.
So so important as a two timeburnout survivor, I'm going to
high fiver there because samegirl, same and former people
pleaser.
She is a speaker, author andpassionate advocate for serving
others while honoring yourself.
Now I'm going to pause here fora second before I finish her
(02:06):
bio, because this part, when Iread it, brought me so much joy
says on a regular day, you'llfind her traveling, belting out
random songs, smilingcontagiously and lifting others
up.
Chanel, I am so pleased to haveyou here.
How are you, my friend?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And I'm smiling like all 32 to show you know here,
and I'm good as I am listeningto my bio being read I'm like
damn, that girl sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I sounds pretty cool.
Yeah, you're a good friend tohave.
Yeah, awesome.
Okay, the way I start everyguest conversation is I want you
to tell me a little bit aboutyour journey, how you ended up
here and why this is like yourhill.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
My hill or my house, stop right.
Yeah, let me tell you I wasalways a big advocate for
boundaries.
I would talk to my friends awhole lot about it.
It's just like oh you know, youneed to set those boundaries
and ensure that you're makingspace for yourself.
But I was somewhat of ahypocrite because I was talking
(03:14):
about all of that but I wasn'tdoing it myself, or I thought I
was doing it but I wasn't doingcrap.
And what happened is I remembermy probably within a year and a
half into my first corporate job.
I was so busy trying to serveclients as a consultant and
trying to get the best and goabove and beyond and being all
(03:36):
of those long meetings and justwork these long hours that I
burnt out.
I got to the point where I wasliterally in a client project
far away from home and my anemia.
It got so bad that my anemiastarted acting up to the point
where my body could not regulatetemperature properly.
But I kept going because guesswhat?
We got work to do.
(03:57):
We have people to please, let'sdo this right.
Even though there was familystuff happening back at home, I
still stayed because I felt myclients needed me and I remember
I went off on vacation shortlyafter that.
I was so exhausted I slept forlike a week, right, just slept,
and so that was my first burnout.
I didn't think I would learnfrom that.
(04:19):
I did learn a couple of lessons, right, but I learned lessons
that made me better at gettingclient success, so we can get
the client success of work withless work, we can set the
expectations and so forth andkeep things going.
I learned that lesson learnedto manage people better and all
that stuff but I did not learnthe important lesson for me,
(04:40):
which was that, girl, you're apeople please off, and it's not
a problem about setting theboundaries, but having the
courage to maintain them andfeel like you're able to do that
with a level of grace.
And so a couple years agoprobably like three or four
years after that, I find myselfonce again struggling with
health issues, having feelinglike I don't have time for
(05:03):
relationships and friendshipsand family, and just feeling so
exhausted and busy.
And everybody would ask me howare you?
And the first thing that comesto mind is like oh my God, I am
exhausted, I'm tired, right?
That's the first thing thatcomes to mind, and somebody
asked me and it did not clickfor me until I got to the point
where my health became a concernand I thought, lord, what am I
(05:25):
going to do?
Like I find myself back in thesame boat again?
And he said to me leavecorporate.
And I left, and it was in that,leaving all the business behind.
We're working those long lawsto the point where you're not
sleeping properly because you'regetting up in the middle of the
night a couple of times, checkyour phone.
And I said stuff and all thatstuff.
In leaving I finally got thespace to actually start to see
(05:50):
me and to see the toxic problemsthat I had, the toxic habits
right, the toxic behaviorsaround how I dealt with people
and how I felt I had to bendbackwards for people at the
expense of myself.
And so, in healing from thosehabits and healing from those
behaviors and getting to theroot of that, out of that sprang
(06:13):
even more passion for helpingother businesses.
I'm not a, I don't considermyself a coach, I don't know
anything with mindset.
I'm literally the one who isgoing to practically help you
structure how you serve yourclients so that you're able to
set those boundaries andmaintain them in a way that is
graceful.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It's full of grace yeah and that's, that was, I
think, the thing that thatreally made me kind of go.
We need to talk about thisbecause you said setting
graceful boundaries right, whichI've never heard it put that
way before.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, and so that's what I, that's what I do and
that's how I, kind of like,ended up here, did my healing,
and I realized, oh crap, this is.
This is the thing that I'mgoing to show from every host up
, or show from every hilltop.
You need to serve others.
Yes, beautiful, you want tomake an impact.
Beautiful, right, you want toserve a whole lot of people.
(07:05):
Fabulous, I love your heart forthat, but do not do it at the
expense of yourself.
Serve others now.
You will serve others.
Honor your boundaries, serveothers, have that space for an
excellent quality of life.
And so that's the hill I'll dieon.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
I know from from having had acorporate career myself.
One of the big challenges isthat you are really programmed
like it is.
It is really drilled into youthat the work comes first.
The job comes first, right.
And so I know, for mepersonally I mean I've talked
about this on the podcast beforeI tend to punish myself with
(07:41):
work and reward myself with work, right.
So it's, it's because it's theonly thing I can control, so
it's the thing that I know.
If things are getting out ofhand in other areas of my life,
my work I can control, and soyou dive into it, right.
And that's when your boundariesbecome blurred.
And then there's the wholepeople pleasing aspect.
And then there's the aspect of,well, the economy.
Right now I can't.
I can't lose clients, so I needto make sure that I fulfill
(08:03):
their needs and I make themhappy.
And it's funny I am this is alittle bit of a detour, but I so
I have struggled with allergiesmost of my life and I have this
one really weird allergy thatno one has been able to figure
out and it's it's like we don'tknow what the trigger is.
We don't know.
I've had all the testing done,it's all come back inconclusive,
(08:26):
but generally what happens ismy eyes will swell up and the
skin around my eyes will get itlooks like contact dermatitis.
It's.
It's not technically that, Ialways thought it was makeup,
and so sometimes I will stopbuying certain brands of makeup
and I've gone through this wholething over the years of these
brands don't work.
These ones do, but sometimesthe makeup I've been using for
years will suddenly trigger anallergic reaction.
(08:48):
And I was talking to a friend ofmine today who's a holistic
healer, and she made theconnection, one that I have not
made in 47 years on this earth,and she said it sounds like
something that is triggered bystress, or you know, there's
something going on in your bodythat is being triggered by
stress, is causing this.
(09:09):
And I sat back and I went well,shit, because because I have I
have been super stressed for thelast few months.
I've not had an allergicreaction for months and now,
suddenly, this pops up.
And that's when I started to.
I sat down this morning and Iwas like you know, it's timely
that we're having thisconversation, because one of the
biggest contributors to mystress over the last few months
(09:30):
is a very clear lack ofboundaries with my clients and
with other people in my life,not just clients.
I'm not going to just blamethem, or you know, but that's so
.
This is why I think this islike you know, hey, this is
divine intervention, but we'rehaving the conversation that we
need to have, and the reason I'mtelling this story is because
we think of stress as beingsomething that leads to
(09:52):
exhaustion or burnout, you knowonly, but it doesn't there's.
There's a host of physicalelements that you can have,
emotional elements that you canhave as a result of stress, that
we don't actually think aboutthe connection.
So when you say serving othersin a way that honors your
boundaries and quality of life,like what does that mean to you?
Why is it so important forparticularly entrepreneurs to
(10:16):
understand what that means?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I feel like we are made for so much more.
I feel like there are so manyelements to our lives that we
are called to stored.
And when we put all of ourenergy into just storing the
business because the business isthe area that bring in the
money and the business is wherewe're supposed to make an impact
we miss an opportunity to haveso much impact and explore a
(10:41):
potential outside of thebusiness.
And so for me, for example, twoyears ago, three years ago, two
to three years ago, my timeruns fast, really fast.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
It's like a flat circle yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
It looks like it's a school.
They're like well, what yearare we kind of in now?
I remember there was a pointwhen I was so busy working with
clients and so forth, and I keptsaying oh I am, I want your
things, I want to do your things, I desire to do, but I am so
busy I don't have the time to doit.
I wanted to have betterrelationships with my family and
(11:15):
friends and so forth.
I didn't have the time to do itbecause guess what?
I'm sorry, it's not my time.
The business is, it's not mytime.
There's supposed to be done.
I wanted I've been saying Iwanted to write a book for
forever.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Oh, I'm feeling called out now.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
And let me tell you, my book is now about, it's now
published and it will beavailable for sale in like the
next week and a half.
Ooh, exciting, okay.
Yes, girl, and that's because Istarted to serve others and
honor me right, honor thedesires and our needs, right.
And you'll be so surprised thatwhen you start to set those
(11:54):
boundaries with your plans andyou start to actually meet that
space of your life, it actuallyopens up space and time for you
to do so much more and to be somuch more in other areas of your
life.
I like to call it the exceedingabundance.
So we have living lifeexceedingly abundantly, above
anything that we could ever hopefor, even begin to imagine.
(12:14):
Right, and the only way thathappens is when we start to
store one particular area of ourlife.
So let me know.
And then we start storing theother areas.
So stewardship issue I like tothink of it.
People pleasing problems withboundaries is our people.
Time is a stewardship problem.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Stewardship, right, yeah, okay, okay.
So can you then break down, Iguess, the process or the steps,
or like what is?
How do you set back, like itlikes, let's get practical?
How do you then set boundariesthat honor your clients, that
honor your business, that honoryou, so that you can, you know,
move into that area ofspaciousness?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I look at it in three areas.
See, I do it.
I can't even call it.
I'm holding up four fingers andsaying three, but there's three
areas that I normally encouragemy clients to focus on.
I call it the right clients, Ithink, the right fit plans.
Who are the clients who arebest equipped to get the results
of the service that you offerright?
(13:12):
What do they have?
The skills and abilities thatthey need to strive?
Do they have the resource?
Do they bring the resourcerelevant resources to the table
that they need to thrive?
Are you actually consideringwhat you need to be given them
in order for them to thriveright, and are these people
actually going to be people wholight you up?
It's not just about saying thatthis person have a credit card
and have the pain points thatyou help them with.
(13:33):
They have to be at the rightstage and bring the right things
to the table in order for youto help them in a way that is
easy for you and easy for them.
So that's the first pillow.
What a novel concept.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I mean, it sounds like you said that.
I mean that's a whole otherconversation, right?
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
This is like wow, it's nothing my mind a lot of
what the second area that I talkabout is the right path to
results, and what do I mean bythat?
A lot of times we think once wehave the resources and once we
have certain activities, we canthrow everything at our clients
and it will magically just workitself out right.
(14:16):
But the thing is we forget thatwe're dealing with human beings,
persons who, on a regular basis, don't like change, and if
you're offering a service,you're kind of like helping them
change from point A to move, totransform to point B, right.
And so in thinking about that,even as you're structuring the
activities and the resourcesthat is actually going to help
(14:38):
your clients to get from point Ato point B, you actually have
to pause to think about thehuman element in it.
Like, how do I ensure thatthings flow when there are
places that there are gaps of interms of knowledge, in terms of
resources, that are actuallygoing to trip people up or make
them confused and cause them toget into analysis process mode
and not want to do anything?
(14:59):
Because I feel like a lot oftimes, business owners will be
like, oh, my clients reallydon't want to do the work, and
it's not that they really don'twant to, it's just that they're
not.
You haven't equipped them to doit.
You haven't equipped themupfront.
And so, because you haven'tdone that proactive work about
creating a simple path toresults that is easy to follow
(15:19):
and easy to get through and easyto support your clients with,
you end up in a reactive mode ofbending over backhorses and
having to go above and beyondwhen shit hits the fan right.
And so it's thinking about thoseactivities, thinking about the
feasible time that you actuallyneed to get things done, and
being able to come in Onceyou've gotten that out.
(15:39):
You're able to communicate thatupfront, to be like, hey,
here's the journey that I'mgoing to take you on at a higher
level, here are the milestonesthat we're going to be working
through, here's what I expectfrom you and here's what you can
expect from me.
And then you have somethingthat you're able to match
against as you're going through.
You have something that you'reable to hold people accountable
to in a way that's easy for themand easy for you.
(16:00):
And that's number two the rightpath to results.
I love it.
And what's number three theright support.
Now there's a typical thing.
I hear a lot in the online spacewhere it's like, oh, we want to
create this safe space and thatmy clients should come to me
with questions whenever theyhave questions.
(16:20):
And I feel like I get it, but Idon't agree with it.
And here's why Sure, yourclients are adults and they'll
have questions and they shouldbe able to come to you when they
have questions.
But you're the expert, you'rethe one who is able to spot when
things are going wrong waybefore they will see it.
(16:41):
They'll probably see when shithits the front and they're like,
oh my God, no, we'reinteracting, we're trying to get
this done, and so when I talkabout the right support, I talk
about giving that timely supportto clients where you're
monitoring how they're going asthey're going along that path to
results.
You're monitoring how they'regoing about it, you're seeing
the risk, you're seeing theissues way before they come up
(17:02):
and you're handling them in aproactive mode so that your
clients are able to continuegoing along with as little issue
as possible and you are able toavoid the firefighting of
things when it becomes a file.
And so that's what I talk aboutwhen I talk about the right
support is giving your clientsthe support they need when they
need it, versus when they wantit.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Oh yeah, that is a point that I think is going to
stick for a lot of peoplebecause, without getting too on
a soapbox, a lot of coaches,particularly they don't
understand really the breadthand depth of support that a
client particularly needs, andit's very much a reactive kind
of.
(17:45):
This is the process that I know,and so this is what we're going
to go through, whether or notthe client actually needs that.
So, okay, two questions then.
What do you suggest people dowhen clients are pushing back on
those boundaries?
Or you know, because I thinkwe've all, like most of us maybe
, have experienced when we setboundaries with a client or we
(18:09):
say something that we know isthe better because we're experts
, like you said is the betteroption for them or the better
next step for them, and theyflat out refuse to honor that.
I mean, when it comes to theirbusiness, obviously they are in
charge, they get to make thedecisions they want to make.
But, like, how do you balancethat sort of the autonomy that a
client has to do, the thingsthey want to do with?
(18:31):
They've hired you to help themachieve a particular thing, but
they're making that reallydifficult for you, I think, when
we set the boundaries, theright boundaries.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I like to think about it, because boundaries actually
helps you from a contractualperspective too, because now
you're able to say that here'swhat you can expect from me,
here's what I can expect fromyou, and it prepares you to have
those difficult conversationsof hey, here's what I'm
recommending.
Here are the effects of you nottaking that path and then
(19:03):
leaving them to make thatdecision.
That allows you as well, evenfrom a contractual perspective,
to be able to say no, okay, I'vedone my due diligence around
this and I've advised you as towhat needs to be done, and
you've chosen to take analternate path, knowingly,
knowing the effects of what willhappen when you go down that
(19:25):
path, and therefore, because ofthat, those are the consequences
.
Right, and so when I even talkabout setting boundaries with
grace, you're able to do thatwith a clear conscience, because
you're not now going having toget into that place where, oh my
God, I'm going to have to bendover backwards to fix this, I'm
going to have to bend overbackwards to try and convince
(19:45):
you to go down the road that Iknow is going to hurt you, Kind
of like when you tell a childdon't touch the fire and the
child won't touch the fire.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
It's like, yeah, you get burned right.
Having a child, who would dothat?
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And I was a child who would do that and it was like
you learn that lesson.
But then I think some of thetimes, when you love people the
way that overgivers do, you tryto take responsibility for their
actions, you try to takeresponsibility for everything
that they do.
When I think there is suchpower in being able to say to
somebody here's the facts,here's what I'm seeing, here are
(20:26):
the consequences of what willhappen if you go down that path,
based on my expertise, and youleave them to be able to make
the decision from there.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Okay, so this, I like this, and here's my follow-up
to that.
Let's say they choose the paththat is not the best path for
them.
You know that this is going toeither be detrimental or a
disaster or whatever, but theyopt to go down that path despite
you setting those boundaries.
What is your recourse then?
Are you now like we'recanceling our relationship, I'm
(20:57):
no longer working with you, orthe client realizes yeah, I did
actually make a mistake.
Can you now fix it?
How do you then navigate thatas somebody who is trying to set
good boundaries?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I love this and I'm going to share with you a
situation I dealt with recently.
We're doing some work for aclient, right, and we agreed on
the scope of what needed to bedone.
We agreed within the timelinesto get some stuff done and we
had everything.
Because I really am very, veryset when it comes to setting the
scope of stuff and everything,because I want to protect my
(21:29):
energy, I want to protect myspace and all of that, and I
want to ensure that I am able togive the best to my clients too
.
Halfway through the engagement,my client decides hey, I know,
we said that this is what wewanted to do.
I don't want to do that anymore.
I want to expand, take it awhole bit further.
And I paused and I said well,here's the reality of this
(21:50):
situation, here's the facts,these were the expectations we
set up front.
This is the scope of whateverwe needed to do.
If you're choosing to go downthat path, here's going to be
the effects as it relates to meand you, and I'm going to need
to send you a touch-in request,because it's going to mean more
time for me, it's going to meanmore money for you and that's
(22:11):
the funny thing is, I've workedas a consultant for more than 10
years and I feel open as a manand I'm quite young.
When you're able to state theeffects from the perspective and
I like to think of it from amoney perspective, a scope
perspective and a qualityperspective a lot of people will
tend to maybe.
I shouldn't be doing this.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
When you make money, the bottom line they're like
maybe not yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, money, time and quality.
Those are like the threefactors around a lot of work.
When you're able to hit thosethree points with a lot of plans
, they'll drop really quick torealize that here, road, and I'm
going down mean not be the best, right.
Which is why I always, when Italk about even setting the
boundaries, because when you setthose boundaries up front,
(22:58):
you're setting the timepiecequite clearly, you're setting
the money piece is prettycrystal clear, right, and then
you're able to calculate.
So you said, okay, you want togo down that course.
That's going to change things up.
Here's what that's going tolook like for you, right, and
that gets them back in line.
And now, place that feels goodfor you, then, a place that
feels give them the reality thatthey need in a way that doesn't
(23:21):
feel like you need to fightthem or strong arm them and then
go, let them go, screw crap up,and then you won't have to fix
it afterwards because it's stillyour time, still your energy.
Hold on.
I'm making a note.
Okay, I'm so curious about thatnote.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
No, you actually just between you and me.
You actually just reminded me,like what was coming up for me
there was when you are.
I mean, I guess it's easier todo that and maybe I'm wrong.
Please feel free to tell me I'mwrong I feel like it's easier
to do that when you are workingon a project basis with somebody
.
So you know, you have a veryclear scope, you have a very
clear definition of the workthat you're going to do and how
(23:58):
long it's going to take and howmuch you're going to charge.
How do you do this?
When you are in a retainerrelationship, let's say so.
It's ongoing work, it's not abucket of hours, but it's like.
This is.
You know, this is how much Iget every month and this is the
general scope of the work I do90% of the time.
That scope evolves over time.
You know you get morecomfortable with the business,
(24:20):
but so, like, how do you suggest?
Having that conversation, havingthat conversation For looking
at that situation.
Yeah, so I guess, like, how doyou retroactively set boundaries
if you've been in arelationship for a while and
you're like you know it startedout great and now shit's getting
a little bit muddy?
Like how do we go back and nowreset those boundaries in a way
that honors both of you?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
No, even in a retainer situation.
I had two thoughts as Ilistened to you.
If, in a retainer situation,you're still allocated a certain
amount to hours to get stuffdone right, it's not like they
have access to you all aroundthe clock and even in that
bucket of time that you have toget things done for them.
When it's on a monthly basis oron a weekly basis, etc.
(25:04):
There's still key things thatyou need to do.
That has repeat effects onother things that you need to do
.
Yeah, and so if somebody isgoing to your client is going to
go down the road of saying that, hey, I know we agreed on this
thing that we've been workingfor for three months and we're
almost on the tail end of it andI want to change my mind.
You can now have thatcomposition to say, but hey, I
(25:27):
don't recommend you doing thatbecause of X, y and Z and also
looking again at the time, thequality and the cost perspective
.
Here's going to be the repeateffects on all the other things
that we have in the pipeline,because it's still one I use,
still a one team, and so eventhen, in terms of having that
composition, from thatstandpoint, it's not a
project-based thing.
It's the reality of the thingthat I do these 10 things for
(25:49):
you on a monthly basis, and ifyou go screw up, if you
basically go change up on howwe're doing one at the last
minute, it's going to affect theother nine.
That's the reality of it, andit may cost you some money,
because now we're going to bepushing things out, we're going
to.
It may affect the quality ofstuff, because guess what, if
we're working with a certainvendor or a certain group of
(26:11):
people on this thing, they maynot want to come back, and so
it's going to have to be doneinternally because it's going to
cost you extra money, right?
And so it's still possible tolook at these situations in a
recurring basis with these threethings quality, time and money
Boundaries are a weird thing.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
They really are.
You know, we all like to thinkthat we have really clear
boundaries, but especially whenyou're in a long-term
relationship with a client, itcan get really challenging
because you obviously develop arelationship with that client
and then things can get a littlebit, you know, like, oh, I
don't know how to bring this up,or I don't know how to bring
that up.
Now.
You brought up, before westarted recording, three types
of business owners and how theyset boundaries.
(26:49):
I want to talk about thisbecause this was really, really
fabulous, so share with us thosethree types of business owners.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
That's the first category that I call.
Well, we all use this onlinespace.
The boss bitch even though itcan be a guy.
It can be a guy too, and I liketo think of it.
Not that I'd say a guy is abitch, but you get what I mean.
This is a type of entrepreneurwho's like I'm all about my
boundaries and how they benefitme and my clients.
(27:19):
Just get in line where theypossibly, where they can, even
if it's not going to meet theclients' needs any at all.
I like to think of those, thesetype of entrepreneurs, as the
ones who are.
You really don't care, you loveyour clients, but you love you
way, way, way more, and so theclients just was left.
All right.
Yeah, these are my boundariesand y'all is.
(27:39):
Either y'all getting in linewith them or y'all leave.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, so they're setting their boundaries with.
They're setting theirboundaries with like a barbed
wire, basically, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Oh, prickly, that's it, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
I just had this visual of like a barbed wire
fence, of like either you likeit or lump it right.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, you like it or you lump it.
I'm going to leave it that.
So that's number one.
Number two is the.
I like to think of them.
Those are the overgivers.
These are people who lovepeople more than themselves.
These are my favorite type ofpeople to work with, because
they love their clients.
They just need to learn how tolove them Now.
These are the people who willbend over backwards, who will go
(28:22):
above and beyond, who willliterally do some magic to make
things happen for their clients,because they love people so
much and they valuerelationships so much.
Right, yeah, now, I personallydon't like any of these extremes
.
I think of the prickly one, asthey somebody who probably have
(28:42):
some work they need to do,because it's just like you know,
somebody broke all of theirboundaries, and now you know
what I'm going to be the villainall the time, and it's my
boundaries are.
So what?
Right, yeah, I'm protectingthat.
And then the other side is justlike you know, I love people so
much, and because I love peopleso much, I want people to love
(29:03):
me too, and I will do anythingto make it happen.
I don't want to do that, but Ilove to get my people to where I
love to get my plans to is amore healthy form of this, where
they are literally working withclients in a way that honors
them and honors their clients.
They're working with clients ina way that think about their
(29:24):
needs and their clients' needsand they're actually put a solid
foundation for serving peoplein a way that honors both sides
right, and I strongly believethat's possible.
I've helped a lot of clients doit.
I have personally done it formyself too, not just with
clients, but even in terms ofpersonal relationships and all
(29:45):
of that.
I believe that it's possible inevery single year of our lives,
where we're able to servepeople in a way that honors them
and without dishonoring us.
And I love seeing when ithappens.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I bet, I bet.
Okay, so we've talked about howto set boundaries and the good
kind of boundaries that youshould be setting, but it's kind
of one of those situationswhere, like I know the mechanics
of it and I'm still struggling,like, what kind of advice would
you give someone who is maybestruggling from a mindset
perspective or a confidenceperspective?
Like I know how to set goodboundaries and I know what I
(30:20):
should be saying and what, butthe execution is a challenge,
because they don't have theconfidence to talk to their
clients in that way.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
I want to share a story.
When I was just starting to getinto that place, just landed in
the online space, and a friendhired me.
You know that make it a littlebit more difficult.
Yeah, a friend hired me andprobably we had a contract in
place when we needed to be done,etc.
And then a couple months downthe line, friends started having
(30:52):
some financial difficulties andthe conversation around
compensation needed to be had,and I remember I sat on it for
like probably no, there wassomething in my contract that
actually talked about thestipulations around that.
I knew how it needed to behandled, but guess what?
It was my friend.
(31:13):
I love my friend and I wantedthe best for my friend.
I wanted to continue helping myfriend as best as I possibly
could.
And I remember I sat on it forlike a week like, oh my God, I
need to have this conversation.
But I want to have it becauseI'm thinking my friend may not
be my friend anymore after Ihave this conversation.
(31:33):
I don't even know how to goabout having the conversation
first, because I was I wasrecently just also people
pleasing and everything and Isat down with my friend and I
explained this to her.
I said to her I know this iswhat we agreed.
I realized that this is wherewe are at right now.
But here are the terms of thereality of what we're in here,
(31:56):
the terms of our contract.
And the terms of the contractbasically says I give you 30
days to settle your balance orthen we stop working together.
And that was probably the easypart.
I realized that was the easypart because my friend was like,
yeah, she understands, etcetera, and then she'll get
things worked out.
Now it's so happened thatthings did not work out the way
(32:19):
that she expected within the 30days.
And I remember on day 30, wewere supposed to have a meeting,
right, and I remember I wasjust like my friend messaged me
to say hey, can we change thetime for a meeting?
And I said to her remember,based on our contract and the
(32:39):
conversation we had here, is wewon't be able to work together
until the balance is settled.
And my friend heard me and saidnothing a couple of days after,
and this is why, if I have everbelieved even more in the need
to set boundaries with Grace, Ifelt a way about her not
(33:02):
responding, but I knew I haddone what needed to be done in a
way that honored me and honoredmy needs and honored her.
A couple of days later, I gotan email from my friend.
Well, I got two emails, onewith the payment and the other
with my friend, literallythanking me for honoring her
(33:23):
enough to have that difficultconversation and honoring her
enough to hold the boundaryaround that, because it made her
have a couple of realizationsabout how she was running
business and how she was doingthings Right.
And I cried.
I cried Right, yeah, and that'sthe thing is.
We think setting boundaries isjust for us, but it's also for
(33:48):
persons.
There are things that peopleneed to learn about themselves
that they will never learn untilsomebody have the courage to
hold that boundary with them.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
That is such an interesting take because there's
been a lot of talk recentlyonline around boundaries.
For a number of reasons, I'mnot going to get into them
because I'm not interested.
You know celebrities and textmessages and you can take from
that what you will.
But there's been conversationsand I heard even this morning
one of the therapists onInstagram talking about how
(34:18):
boundaries are solely for you toset, so that you, like you are.
I can't even remember how theyput it, but it was.
It was clear that boundaries areabout your needs and not in not
imposing them on other people.
Now, I understand that youdon't impose your boundaries and
other people, but when you saythat boundaries need to honor
(34:40):
both the person that you'resetting the boundary with and
yourself, that feels betterbecause you can set boundaries
for yourself as much as you want.
If the other person isn'twilling to honor them, that's
fine.
That's their decision to do so,and I'm not being as eloquent
about this as I want to be, butI sometimes feel like if they're
not honoring them, it'sprobably also because there's
(35:02):
something about the way you'resetting the boundary that is
rubbing against them the wrongway.
Would you agree with?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
that, yeah, okay, I definitely, definitely agree,
because the thing is it's arelationship, no matter if it's
a personal one or it's abusiness one.
Whenever you enter into anagreement with a client, it's a
mutual agreement that, hey,these are the things that you're
doing, to be doing here, thethings that you can expect from
me.
And I think a lot of peoplemiss that, especially in the
(35:29):
online space, I see it a lotwhere it's almost like the
business owner is pretty clearon what they need to do and the
client is like literallycontinuously caught.
Surprise, like it's a birthdayparty where you're jumping out
of a cave and surprise is whatthey need to be done.
And then the business ownerwill be like you know what
you're doing, the work, you'redisengaged and all that stuff,
(35:51):
when the truth of the matter is,you literally just caught me
with my pants.
You continuously put me in aposition where I'm always with
my pants down and then you'reexpecting me to be my best,
right.
And so when we talk about goingback to what you were saying
about this, on settingboundaries in a way that honors
your clients and honors you,it's about being able to set
those expectations right Off togo Right, I believe that on
(36:15):
board, that season aroundcontracts and on onboarding is
so critical, right yeah, mybackground is in project
management, is in programmanagement and data analytics
and all that stuff, and one ofthe most, the one of the key
things to make a project very,very successful was a kickoff
meeting when everybody cametogether and every expectations
(36:38):
were clear, as in all, these arethe things that we're going to
be doing here at the time andthe timelines that we're going
to be doing it.
Here's a budget that we'reworking with, et cetera.
So everybody was on the samepage, right yeah, and that's
something that's missing a lotwith business owners.
You start working and you knowwhat you're doing and the client
just gets surprised along theway like your birthday, yeah,
jump up, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Absolutely.
I love this.
I think that you know that'ssomething that we tend to miss a
lot of in our society and ourculture these days.
It's such a me centric society.
You know, everything is aboutme and I must be comfortable and
my needs must be met andeverybody else can like it or
lump it, and I feel like it'ssuch a it's such a departure
(37:21):
from the way we really shouldwant to do business and want to
have relationships, because whenyou are constantly stuck in
that me centric view, it's allabout me first.
Like, yes, honor yourselfAbsolutely.
I'm not the.
I'm not going to sit here andsay you need to people, please,
or anything like that.
Like, absolutely, honoryourself, but remember that it's
a human.
On the other side of it too,right, and nobody I mean okay, I
(37:45):
won't say nobody, becausenothing is around 100%.
But very rarely do humans setout too intentionally cross your
boundaries to intentionallycause you harm, to intentionally
make you feel however you arefeeling about a certain
situation.
Very, very rarely in life doesthat happen intentionally.
And so if we can start comingto these conversations with an
(38:09):
understanding that that personis a human, they are trying to
get through this just like youare yes, right, then maybe we
can deflect some of the conflictthat seems to be cropping up in
business situations and whatnot.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
I definitely 100% agree with you.
I co-signed that, co-signingyeah, with everything on it,
because you are definitely right.
We need to understand that nomoney is an island and, at the
end of the day, is two peopleworking together, whether it's
(38:47):
you are working directly withyour client or your client is
working directly with your team.
So people working together andone of the things that I know,
for example, my client's love ismaintaining relationships,
because guess what?
The money is also in therelationship.
It's not just a one-off thing ofworking with a client.
These are clients who, if theylove you and everything works
(39:08):
out well and it's a goodexperience for them they are the
same ones who want to work withyou again.
They are the same ones who wantto sing your name abroad
because, guess what?
This is somebody who isreliable.
This is somebody who honors meas a human being and who honors
themselves as a human being.
We have come together to makesuch an experience around that,
(39:32):
so I definitely definitely agreewith you around that.
Definitely, I have.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I have often said sales is the byproduct of
genuine connection, and whenyou're able to do that, then
that's when the money starts toflow.
So I'm glad that we got on thesame page about that.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
I know it's not about customers' success from a money
perspective often.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
No, but it's all tied together.
Let's be honest.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, it all yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Amazing.
This has been such a greatconversation.
Where can people find you,chanel, if they want to get in
touch?
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Before people can find me.
You asked an interestingquestion earlier about how to.
Yes, like you're already in therelationship, things are going
haywire, yeah.
Like what can you re?
I like to call this the pivot.
You can reset your boundariesat any point.
You can set new expectations atany point, especially long
(40:29):
standing relationships.
Right, the Sucat and man andWoman relationship.
We are the same person.
If we've been with our partnerfor a while, we're the same
person we were when we startedwith them.
Expectations change and it'sokay to adjust.
Right.
It's same with long standingbusiness relationship.
Expectations will change.
The scope of what you're doingwith change is okay to take a
(40:50):
pause, assess where you are atand then reestablish boundaries
from there.
You do yourself a disservicewhen you don't.
You do your plans of disservicewhen you don't.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I love it.
You're allowed to change yourmind.
You're allowed to change yourmind.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
You are, you are, so that's.
Oh, you asked me, where canpeople find me?
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yes, where can they find you?
Because they need to yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Two main ways to find me.
You can find me on FacebookChanel thinking Coco Chanel.
I'm Chanel number one, neverChanel number five, chanel
number six.
Yeah, I like that.
That's my name.
My name is so unique Chanel androbe.
On Facebook.
Or you can drop me an email atChanel, which is my first name
(41:40):
at the robewaycom.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Wonderful.
There you go, get out, connectwith her.
She's amazing.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This has been such a greatconversation.
And remember you can havesuccess without the BS.
That's it for this week.
Thanks for listening to thebusiness blasphemy podcast.
We'll be back next week with anew episode, but in the meantime
(42:03):
, help us this throughout bysubscribing and, if you're
feeling extra sassy rating thispodcast, and don't forget to
share the podcast with others.
Head over to business blasphemypodcastcom to connect with us
and learn more.
Thanks for listening andremember you can have success
without the BS.
Welcome to the Business Blast for Me podcast,
where we question the sacredtruths of the online business
space and the reverence withwhich they're held.
I'm your host, Sarah Kahn,speaker, strategic consultant
and BS busting badass.
Join me each week as wechallenge the norms, trends and
overall bullshit status quo ofentrepreneurship to uncover what
it really takes to build thebusiness that you want to build
(00:23):
in a way that honors you, yourlife and your vision for what's
possible, and maybe piss off afew gurus along the way.
So if you're ready to commitBusiness Blast for Me, let's do
it.
Hello, hello, blast femurs.
How are you?
I hope you're having awonderful week.
I am very excited to have thisconversation with Chanel.
(00:45):
She is my guest today and we'regoing to be talking about
something that a lot of people,a lot a lot of people, struggle
with, and that is boundaries.
Hi, Chanel.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Hi, I'm so excited to be here.
I'm so excited to have you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
This is going to be a good conversation.
So Chanel and I have beenconnected for a while and we had
a conversation maybe a week orso ago.
We had a coffee chat.
It was really, really fun, itwas very casual and we started
to talk about boundaries and theway she talked about how she
sets boundaries in business.
I was like you need to come onthe podcast, because this is a
conversation a lot of peopleneed to be privy to, and so
(01:23):
that's what we're going to startwith today, and then we'll just
see where it goes, because, youknow, this show is usually just
we fly by the seat of our pantsand sometimes it's just a giant
chaos, monkey.
So let me introduce her formallyto Chanel Robes, the owner of
the robe way and an authority onachieving customer success with
less work.
She helps business owners runprofitable, impactful businesses
(01:44):
and maintain clientrelationships without
sacrificing their personalboundaries or quality of life.
So so important as a two timeburnout survivor, I'm going to
high fiver there because samegirl, same and former people
pleaser.
She is a speaker, author andpassionate advocate for serving
others while honoring yourself.
Now I'm going to pause here fora second before I finish her
(02:06):
bio, because this part, when Iread it, brought me so much joy
says on a regular day, you'llfind her traveling, belting out
random songs, smilingcontagiously and lifting others
up.
Chanel, I am so pleased to haveyou here.
How are you, my friend?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And I'm smiling like all 32 to show you know here,
and I'm good as I am listeningto my bio being read I'm like
damn, that girl sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I sounds pretty cool.
Yeah, you're a good friend tohave.
Yeah, awesome.
Okay, the way I start everyguest conversation is I want you
to tell me a little bit aboutyour journey, how you ended up
here and why this is like yourhill.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
My hill or my house, stop right.
Yeah, let me tell you I wasalways a big advocate for
boundaries.
I would talk to my friends awhole lot about it.
It's just like oh you know, youneed to set those boundaries
and ensure that you're makingspace for yourself.
But I was somewhat of ahypocrite because I was talking
(03:14):
about all of that but I wasn'tdoing it myself, or I thought I
was doing it but I wasn't doingcrap.
And what happened is I remembermy probably within a year and a
half into my first corporate job.
I was so busy trying to serveclients as a consultant and
trying to get the best and goabove and beyond and being all
(03:36):
of those long meetings and justwork these long hours that I
burnt out.
I got to the point where I wasliterally in a client project
far away from home and my anemia.
It got so bad that my anemiastarted acting up to the point
where my body could not regulatetemperature properly.
But I kept going because guesswhat?
We got work to do.
(03:57):
We have people to please, let'sdo this right.
Even though there was familystuff happening back at home, I
still stayed because I felt myclients needed me and I remember
I went off on vacation shortlyafter that.
I was so exhausted I slept forlike a week, right, just slept,
and so that was my first burnout.
I didn't think I would learnfrom that.
(04:19):
I did learn a couple of lessons, right, but I learned lessons
that made me better at gettingclient success, so we can get
the client success of work withless work, we can set the
expectations and so forth andkeep things going.
I learned that lesson learnedto manage people better and all
that stuff but I did not learnthe important lesson for me,
(04:40):
which was that, girl, you're apeople please off, and it's not
a problem about setting theboundaries, but having the
courage to maintain them andfeel like you're able to do that
with a level of grace.
And so a couple years agoprobably like three or four
years after that, I find myselfonce again struggling with
health issues, having feelinglike I don't have time for
(05:03):
relationships and friendshipsand family, and just feeling so
exhausted and busy.
And everybody would ask me howare you?
And the first thing that comesto mind is like oh my God, I am
exhausted, I'm tired, right?
That's the first thing thatcomes to mind, and somebody
asked me and it did not clickfor me until I got to the point
where my health became a concernand I thought, lord, what am I
(05:25):
going to do?
Like I find myself back in thesame boat again?
And he said to me leavecorporate.
And I left, and it was in that,leaving all the business behind.
We're working those long lawsto the point where you're not
sleeping properly because you'regetting up in the middle of the
night a couple of times, checkyour phone.
And I said stuff and all thatstuff.
In leaving I finally got thespace to actually start to see
(05:50):
me and to see the toxic problemsthat I had, the toxic habits
right, the toxic behaviorsaround how I dealt with people
and how I felt I had to bendbackwards for people at the
expense of myself.
And so, in healing from thosehabits and healing from those
behaviors and getting to theroot of that, out of that sprang
(06:13):
even more passion for helpingother businesses.
I'm not a, I don't considermyself a coach, I don't know
anything with mindset.
I'm literally the one who isgoing to practically help you
structure how you serve yourclients so that you're able to
set those boundaries andmaintain them in a way that is
graceful.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It's full of grace yeah and that's, that was, I
think, the thing that thatreally made me kind of go.
We need to talk about thisbecause you said setting
graceful boundaries right, whichI've never heard it put that
way before.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, and so that's what I, that's what I do and
that's how I, kind of like,ended up here, did my healing,
and I realized, oh crap, this is.
This is the thing that I'mgoing to show from every host up
, or show from every hilltop.
You need to serve others.
Yes, beautiful, you want tomake an impact.
Beautiful, right, you want toserve a whole lot of people.
(07:05):
Fabulous, I love your heart forthat, but do not do it at the
expense of yourself.
Serve others now.
You will serve others.
Honor your boundaries, serveothers, have that space for an
excellent quality of life.
And so that's the hill I'll dieon.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
I know from from having had acorporate career myself.
One of the big challenges isthat you are really programmed
like it is.
It is really drilled into youthat the work comes first.
The job comes first, right.
And so I know, for mepersonally I mean I've talked
about this on the podcast beforeI tend to punish myself with
(07:41):
work and reward myself with work, right.
So it's, it's because it's theonly thing I can control, so
it's the thing that I know.
If things are getting out ofhand in other areas of my life,
my work I can control, and soyou dive into it, right.
And that's when your boundariesbecome blurred.
And then there's the wholepeople pleasing aspect.
And then there's the aspect of,well, the economy.
Right now I can't.
I can't lose clients, so I needto make sure that I fulfill
(08:03):
their needs and I make themhappy.
And it's funny I am this is alittle bit of a detour, but I so
I have struggled with allergiesmost of my life and I have this
one really weird allergy thatno one has been able to figure
out and it's it's like we don'tknow what the trigger is.
We don't know.
I've had all the testing done,it's all come back inconclusive,
(08:26):
but generally what happens ismy eyes will swell up and the
skin around my eyes will get itlooks like contact dermatitis.
It's.
It's not technically that, Ialways thought it was makeup,
and so sometimes I will stopbuying certain brands of makeup
and I've gone through this wholething over the years of these
brands don't work.
These ones do, but sometimesthe makeup I've been using for
years will suddenly trigger anallergic reaction.
(08:48):
And I was talking to a friend ofmine today who's a holistic
healer, and she made theconnection, one that I have not
made in 47 years on this earth,and she said it sounds like
something that is triggered bystress, or you know, there's
something going on in your bodythat is being triggered by
stress, is causing this.
(09:09):
And I sat back and I went well,shit, because because I have I
have been super stressed for thelast few months.
I've not had an allergicreaction for months and now,
suddenly, this pops up.
And that's when I started to.
I sat down this morning and Iwas like you know, it's timely
that we're having thisconversation, because one of the
biggest contributors to mystress over the last few months
(09:30):
is a very clear lack ofboundaries with my clients and
with other people in my life,not just clients.
I'm not going to just blamethem, or you know, but that's so
.
This is why I think this islike you know, hey, this is
divine intervention, but we'rehaving the conversation that we
need to have, and the reason I'mtelling this story is because
we think of stress as beingsomething that leads to
(09:52):
exhaustion or burnout, you knowonly, but it doesn't there's.
There's a host of physicalelements that you can have,
emotional elements that you canhave as a result of stress, that
we don't actually think aboutthe connection.
So when you say serving othersin a way that honors your
boundaries and quality of life,like what does that mean to you?
Why is it so important forparticularly entrepreneurs to
(10:16):
understand what that means?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I feel like we are made for so much more.
I feel like there are so manyelements to our lives that we
are called to stored.
And when we put all of ourenergy into just storing the
business because the business isthe area that bring in the
money and the business is wherewe're supposed to make an impact
we miss an opportunity to haveso much impact and explore a
(10:41):
potential outside of thebusiness.
And so for me, for example, twoyears ago, three years ago, two
to three years ago, my timeruns fast, really fast.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
It's like a flat circle yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
It looks like it's a school.
They're like well, what yearare we kind of in now?
I remember there was a pointwhen I was so busy working with
clients and so forth, and I keptsaying oh I am, I want your
things, I want to do your things, I desire to do, but I am so
busy I don't have the time to doit.
I wanted to have betterrelationships with my family and
(11:15):
friends and so forth.
I didn't have the time to do itbecause guess what?
I'm sorry, it's not my time.
The business is, it's not mytime.
There's supposed to be done.
I wanted I've been saying Iwanted to write a book for
forever.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Oh, I'm feeling called out now.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
And let me tell you, my book is now about, it's now
published and it will beavailable for sale in like the
next week and a half.
Ooh, exciting, okay.
Yes, girl, and that's because Istarted to serve others and
honor me right, honor thedesires and our needs, right.
And you'll be so surprised thatwhen you start to set those
(11:54):
boundaries with your plans andyou start to actually meet that
space of your life, it actuallyopens up space and time for you
to do so much more and to be somuch more in other areas of your
life.
I like to call it the exceedingabundance.
So we have living lifeexceedingly abundantly, above
anything that we could ever hopefor, even begin to imagine.
(12:14):
Right, and the only way thathappens is when we start to
store one particular area of ourlife.
So let me know.
And then we start storing theother areas.
So stewardship issue I like tothink of it.
People pleasing problems withboundaries is our people.
Time is a stewardship problem.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Stewardship, right, yeah, okay, okay.
So can you then break down, Iguess, the process or the steps,
or like what is?
How do you set back, like itlikes, let's get practical?
How do you then set boundariesthat honor your clients, that
honor your business, that honoryou, so that you can, you know,
move into that area ofspaciousness?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I look at it in three areas.
See, I do it.
I can't even call it.
I'm holding up four fingers andsaying three, but there's three
areas that I normally encouragemy clients to focus on.
I call it the right clients, Ithink, the right fit plans.
Who are the clients who arebest equipped to get the results
of the service that you offerright?
(13:12):
What do they have?
The skills and abilities thatthey need to strive?
Do they have the resource?
Do they bring the resourcerelevant resources to the table
that they need to thrive?
Are you actually consideringwhat you need to be given them
in order for them to thriveright, and are these people
actually going to be people wholight you up?
It's not just about saying thatthis person have a credit card
and have the pain points thatyou help them with.
(13:33):
They have to be at the rightstage and bring the right things
to the table in order for youto help them in a way that is
easy for you and easy for them.
So that's the first pillow.
What a novel concept.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I mean, it sounds like you said that.
I mean that's a whole otherconversation, right?
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
This is like wow, it's nothing my mind a lot of
what the second area that I talkabout is the right path to
results, and what do I mean bythat?
A lot of times we think once wehave the resources and once we
have certain activities, we canthrow everything at our clients
and it will magically just workitself out right.
(14:16):
But the thing is we forget thatwe're dealing with human beings,
persons who, on a regular basis, don't like change, and if
you're offering a service,you're kind of like helping them
change from point A to move, totransform to point B, right.
And so in thinking about that,even as you're structuring the
activities and the resourcesthat is actually going to help
(14:38):
your clients to get from point Ato point B, you actually have
to pause to think about thehuman element in it.
Like, how do I ensure thatthings flow when there are
places that there are gaps of interms of knowledge, in terms of
resources, that are actuallygoing to trip people up or make
them confused and cause them toget into analysis process mode
and not want to do anything?
(14:59):
Because I feel like a lot oftimes, business owners will be
like, oh, my clients reallydon't want to do the work, and
it's not that they really don'twant to, it's just that they're
not.
You haven't equipped them to doit.
You haven't equipped themupfront.
And so, because you haven'tdone that proactive work about
creating a simple path toresults that is easy to follow
(15:19):
and easy to get through and easyto support your clients with,
you end up in a reactive mode ofbending over backhorses and
having to go above and beyondwhen shit hits the fan right.
And so it's thinking about thoseactivities, thinking about the
feasible time that you actuallyneed to get things done, and
being able to come in Onceyou've gotten that out.
(15:39):
You're able to communicate thatupfront, to be like, hey,
here's the journey that I'mgoing to take you on at a higher
level, here are the milestonesthat we're going to be working
through, here's what I expectfrom you and here's what you can
expect from me.
And then you have somethingthat you're able to match
against as you're going through.
You have something that you'reable to hold people accountable
to in a way that's easy for themand easy for you.
(16:00):
And that's number two the rightpath to results.
I love it.
And what's number three theright support.
Now there's a typical thing.
I hear a lot in the online spacewhere it's like, oh, we want to
create this safe space and thatmy clients should come to me
with questions whenever theyhave questions.
(16:20):
And I feel like I get it, but Idon't agree with it.
And here's why Sure, yourclients are adults and they'll
have questions and they shouldbe able to come to you when they
have questions.
But you're the expert, you'rethe one who is able to spot when
things are going wrong waybefore they will see it.
(16:41):
They'll probably see when shithits the front and they're like,
oh my God, no, we'reinteracting, we're trying to get
this done, and so when I talkabout the right support, I talk
about giving that timely supportto clients where you're
monitoring how they're going asthey're going along that path to
results.
You're monitoring how they'regoing about it, you're seeing
the risk, you're seeing theissues way before they come up
(17:02):
and you're handling them in aproactive mode so that your
clients are able to continuegoing along with as little issue
as possible and you are able toavoid the firefighting of
things when it becomes a file.
And so that's what I talk aboutwhen I talk about the right
support is giving your clientsthe support they need when they
need it, versus when they wantit.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Oh yeah, that is a point that I think is going to
stick for a lot of peoplebecause, without getting too on
a soapbox, a lot of coaches,particularly they don't
understand really the breadthand depth of support that a
client particularly needs, andit's very much a reactive kind
of.
(17:45):
This is the process that I know,and so this is what we're going
to go through, whether or notthe client actually needs that.
So, okay, two questions then.
What do you suggest people dowhen clients are pushing back on
those boundaries?
Or you know, because I thinkwe've all, like most of us maybe
, have experienced when we setboundaries with a client or we
(18:09):
say something that we know isthe better because we're experts
, like you said is the betteroption for them or the better
next step for them, and theyflat out refuse to honor that.
I mean, when it comes to theirbusiness, obviously they are in
charge, they get to make thedecisions they want to make.
But, like, how do you balancethat sort of the autonomy that a
client has to do, the thingsthey want to do with?
(18:31):
They've hired you to help themachieve a particular thing, but
they're making that reallydifficult for you, I think, when
we set the boundaries, theright boundaries.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I like to think about it, because boundaries actually
helps you from a contractualperspective too, because now
you're able to say that here'swhat you can expect from me,
here's what I can expect fromyou, and it prepares you to have
those difficult conversationsof hey, here's what I'm
recommending.
Here are the effects of you nottaking that path and then
(19:03):
leaving them to make thatdecision.
That allows you as well, evenfrom a contractual perspective,
to be able to say no, okay, I'vedone my due diligence around
this and I've advised you as towhat needs to be done, and
you've chosen to take analternate path, knowingly,
knowing the effects of what willhappen when you go down that
(19:25):
path, and therefore, because ofthat, those are the consequences
.
Right, and so when I even talkabout setting boundaries with
grace, you're able to do thatwith a clear conscience, because
you're not now going having toget into that place where, oh my
God, I'm going to have to bendover backwards to fix this, I'm
going to have to bend overbackwards to try and convince
(19:45):
you to go down the road that Iknow is going to hurt you, Kind
of like when you tell a childdon't touch the fire and the
child won't touch the fire.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
It's like, yeah, you get burned right.
Having a child, who would dothat?
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And I was a child who would do that and it was like
you learn that lesson.
But then I think some of thetimes, when you love people the
way that overgivers do, you tryto take responsibility for their
actions, you try to takeresponsibility for everything
that they do.
When I think there is suchpower in being able to say to
somebody here's the facts,here's what I'm seeing, here are
(20:26):
the consequences of what willhappen if you go down that path,
based on my expertise, and youleave them to be able to make
the decision from there.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Okay, so this, I like this, and here's my follow-up
to that.
Let's say they choose the paththat is not the best path for
them.
You know that this is going toeither be detrimental or a
disaster or whatever, but theyopt to go down that path despite
you setting those boundaries.
What is your recourse then?
Are you now like we'recanceling our relationship, I'm
(20:57):
no longer working with you, orthe client realizes yeah, I did
actually make a mistake.
Can you now fix it?
How do you then navigate thatas somebody who is trying to set
good boundaries?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I love this and I'm going to share with you a
situation I dealt with recently.
We're doing some work for aclient, right, and we agreed on
the scope of what needed to bedone.
We agreed within the timelinesto get some stuff done and we
had everything.
Because I really am very, veryset when it comes to setting the
scope of stuff and everything,because I want to protect my
(21:29):
energy, I want to protect myspace and all of that, and I
want to ensure that I am able togive the best to my clients too
.
Halfway through the engagement,my client decides hey, I know,
we said that this is what wewanted to do.
I don't want to do that anymore.
I want to expand, take it awhole bit further.
And I paused and I said well,here's the reality of this
(21:50):
situation, here's the facts,these were the expectations we
set up front.
This is the scope of whateverwe needed to do.
If you're choosing to go downthat path, here's going to be
the effects as it relates to meand you, and I'm going to need
to send you a touch-in request,because it's going to mean more
time for me, it's going to meanmore money for you and that's
(22:11):
the funny thing is, I've workedas a consultant for more than 10
years and I feel open as a manand I'm quite young.
When you're able to state theeffects from the perspective and
I like to think of it from amoney perspective, a scope
perspective and a qualityperspective a lot of people will
tend to maybe.
I shouldn't be doing this.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
When you make money, the bottom line they're like
maybe not yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, money, time and quality.
Those are like the threefactors around a lot of work.
When you're able to hit thosethree points with a lot of plans
, they'll drop really quick torealize that here, road, and I'm
going down mean not be the best, right.
Which is why I always, when Italk about even setting the
boundaries, because when you setthose boundaries up front,
(22:58):
you're setting the timepiecequite clearly, you're setting
the money piece is prettycrystal clear, right, and then
you're able to calculate.
So you said, okay, you want togo down that course.
That's going to change things up.
Here's what that's going tolook like for you, right, and
that gets them back in line.
And now, place that feels goodfor you, then, a place that
feels give them the reality thatthey need in a way that doesn't
(23:21):
feel like you need to fightthem or strong arm them and then
go, let them go, screw crap up,and then you won't have to fix
it afterwards because it's stillyour time, still your energy.
Hold on.
I'm making a note.
Okay, I'm so curious about thatnote.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
No, you actually just between you and me.
You actually just reminded me,like what was coming up for me
there was when you are.
I mean, I guess it's easier todo that and maybe I'm wrong.
Please feel free to tell me I'mwrong I feel like it's easier
to do that when you are workingon a project basis with somebody
.
So you know, you have a veryclear scope, you have a very
clear definition of the workthat you're going to do and how
(23:58):
long it's going to take and howmuch you're going to charge.
How do you do this?
When you are in a retainerrelationship, let's say so.
It's ongoing work, it's not abucket of hours, but it's like.
This is.
You know, this is how much Iget every month and this is the
general scope of the work I do90% of the time.
That scope evolves over time.
You know you get morecomfortable with the business,
(24:20):
but so, like, how do you suggest?
Having that conversation, havingthat conversation For looking
at that situation.
Yeah, so I guess, like, how doyou retroactively set boundaries
if you've been in arelationship for a while and
you're like you know it startedout great and now shit's getting
a little bit muddy?
Like how do we go back and nowreset those boundaries in a way
that honors both of you?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
No, even in a retainer situation.
I had two thoughts as Ilistened to you.
If, in a retainer situation,you're still allocated a certain
amount to hours to get stuffdone right, it's not like they
have access to you all aroundthe clock and even in that
bucket of time that you have toget things done for them.
When it's on a monthly basis oron a weekly basis, etc.
(25:04):
There's still key things thatyou need to do.
That has repeat effects onother things that you need to do
.
Yeah, and so if somebody isgoing to your client is going to
go down the road of saying that, hey, I know we agreed on this
thing that we've been workingfor for three months and we're
almost on the tail end of it andI want to change my mind.
You can now have thatcomposition to say, but hey, I
(25:27):
don't recommend you doing thatbecause of X, y and Z and also
looking again at the time, thequality and the cost perspective
.
Here's going to be the repeateffects on all the other things
that we have in the pipeline,because it's still one I use,
still a one team, and so eventhen, in terms of having that
composition, from thatstandpoint, it's not a
project-based thing.
It's the reality of the thingthat I do these 10 things for
(25:49):
you on a monthly basis, and ifyou go screw up, if you
basically go change up on howwe're doing one at the last
minute, it's going to affect theother nine.
That's the reality of it, andit may cost you some money,
because now we're going to bepushing things out, we're going
to.
It may affect the quality ofstuff, because guess what, if
we're working with a certainvendor or a certain group of
(26:11):
people on this thing, they maynot want to come back, and so
it's going to have to be doneinternally because it's going to
cost you extra money, right?
And so it's still possible tolook at these situations in a
recurring basis with these threethings quality, time and money
Boundaries are a weird thing.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
They really are.
You know, we all like to thinkthat we have really clear
boundaries, but especially whenyou're in a long-term
relationship with a client, itcan get really challenging
because you obviously develop arelationship with that client
and then things can get a littlebit, you know, like, oh, I
don't know how to bring this up,or I don't know how to bring
that up.
Now.
You brought up, before westarted recording, three types
of business owners and how theyset boundaries.
(26:49):
I want to talk about thisbecause this was really, really
fabulous, so share with us thosethree types of business owners.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
That's the first category that I call.
Well, we all use this onlinespace.
The boss bitch even though itcan be a guy.
It can be a guy too, and I liketo think of it.
Not that I'd say a guy is abitch, but you get what I mean.
This is a type of entrepreneurwho's like I'm all about my
boundaries and how they benefitme and my clients.
(27:19):
Just get in line where theypossibly, where they can, even
if it's not going to meet theclients' needs any at all.
I like to think of those, thesetype of entrepreneurs, as the
ones who are.
You really don't care, you loveyour clients, but you love you
way, way, way more, and so theclients just was left.
All right.
Yeah, these are my boundariesand y'all is.
(27:39):
Either y'all getting in linewith them or y'all leave.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, so they're setting their boundaries with.
They're setting theirboundaries with like a barbed
wire, basically, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Oh, prickly, that's it, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
I just had this visual of like a barbed wire
fence, of like either you likeit or lump it right.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, you like it or you lump it.
I'm going to leave it that.
So that's number one.
Number two is the.
I like to think of them.
Those are the overgivers.
These are people who lovepeople more than themselves.
These are my favorite type ofpeople to work with, because
they love their clients.
They just need to learn how tolove them Now.
These are the people who willbend over backwards, who will go
(28:22):
above and beyond, who willliterally do some magic to make
things happen for their clients,because they love people so
much and they valuerelationships so much.
Right, yeah, now, I personallydon't like any of these extremes
.
I think of the prickly one, asthey somebody who probably have
(28:42):
some work they need to do,because it's just like you know,
somebody broke all of theirboundaries, and now you know
what I'm going to be the villainall the time, and it's my
boundaries are.
So what?
Right, yeah, I'm protectingthat.
And then the other side is justlike you know, I love people so
much, and because I love peopleso much, I want people to love
(29:03):
me too, and I will do anythingto make it happen.
I don't want to do that, but Ilove to get my people to where I
love to get my plans to is amore healthy form of this, where
they are literally working withclients in a way that honors
them and honors their clients.
They're working with clients ina way that think about their
(29:24):
needs and their clients' needsand they're actually put a solid
foundation for serving peoplein a way that honors both sides
right, and I strongly believethat's possible.
I've helped a lot of clients doit.
I have personally done it formyself too, not just with
clients, but even in terms ofpersonal relationships and all
(29:45):
of that.
I believe that it's possible inevery single year of our lives,
where we're able to servepeople in a way that honors them
and without dishonoring us.
And I love seeing when ithappens.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I bet, I bet.
Okay, so we've talked about howto set boundaries and the good
kind of boundaries that youshould be setting, but it's kind
of one of those situationswhere, like I know the mechanics
of it and I'm still struggling,like, what kind of advice would
you give someone who is maybestruggling from a mindset
perspective or a confidenceperspective?
Like I know how to set goodboundaries and I know what I
(30:20):
should be saying and what, butthe execution is a challenge,
because they don't have theconfidence to talk to their
clients in that way.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
I want to share a story.
When I was just starting to getinto that place, just landed in
the online space, and a friendhired me.
You know that make it a littlebit more difficult.
Yeah, a friend hired me andprobably we had a contract in
place when we needed to be done,etc.
And then a couple months downthe line, friends started having
(30:52):
some financial difficulties andthe conversation around
compensation needed to be had,and I remember I sat on it for
like probably no, there wassomething in my contract that
actually talked about thestipulations around that.
I knew how it needed to behandled, but guess what?
It was my friend.
(31:13):
I love my friend and I wantedthe best for my friend.
I wanted to continue helping myfriend as best as I possibly
could.
And I remember I sat on it forlike a week like, oh my God, I
need to have this conversation.
But I want to have it becauseI'm thinking my friend may not
be my friend anymore after Ihave this conversation.
(31:33):
I don't even know how to goabout having the conversation
first, because I was I wasrecently just also people
pleasing and everything and Isat down with my friend and I
explained this to her.
I said to her I know this iswhat we agreed.
I realized that this is wherewe are at right now.
But here are the terms of thereality of what we're in here,
(31:56):
the terms of our contract.
And the terms of the contractbasically says I give you 30
days to settle your balance orthen we stop working together.
And that was probably the easypart.
I realized that was the easypart because my friend was like,
yeah, she understands, etcetera, and then she'll get
things worked out.
Now it's so happened thatthings did not work out the way
(32:19):
that she expected within the 30days.
And I remember on day 30, wewere supposed to have a meeting,
right, and I remember I wasjust like my friend messaged me
to say hey, can we change thetime for a meeting?
And I said to her remember,based on our contract and the
(32:39):
conversation we had here, is wewon't be able to work together
until the balance is settled.
And my friend heard me and saidnothing a couple of days after,
and this is why, if I have everbelieved even more in the need
to set boundaries with Grace, Ifelt a way about her not
(33:02):
responding, but I knew I haddone what needed to be done in a
way that honored me and honoredmy needs and honored her.
A couple of days later, I gotan email from my friend.
Well, I got two emails, onewith the payment and the other
with my friend, literallythanking me for honoring her
(33:23):
enough to have that difficultconversation and honoring her
enough to hold the boundaryaround that, because it made her
have a couple of realizationsabout how she was running
business and how she was doingthings Right.
And I cried.
I cried Right, yeah, and that'sthe thing is.
We think setting boundaries isjust for us, but it's also for
(33:48):
persons.
There are things that peopleneed to learn about themselves
that they will never learn untilsomebody have the courage to
hold that boundary with them.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
That is such an interesting take because there's
been a lot of talk recentlyonline around boundaries.
For a number of reasons, I'mnot going to get into them
because I'm not interested.
You know celebrities and textmessages and you can take from
that what you will.
But there's been conversationsand I heard even this morning
one of the therapists onInstagram talking about how
(34:18):
boundaries are solely for you toset, so that you, like you are.
I can't even remember how theyput it, but it was.
It was clear that boundaries areabout your needs and not in not
imposing them on other people.
Now, I understand that youdon't impose your boundaries and
other people, but when you saythat boundaries need to honor
(34:40):
both the person that you'resetting the boundary with and
yourself, that feels betterbecause you can set boundaries
for yourself as much as you want.
If the other person isn'twilling to honor them, that's
fine.
That's their decision to do so,and I'm not being as eloquent
about this as I want to be, butI sometimes feel like if they're
not honoring them, it'sprobably also because there's
(35:02):
something about the way you'resetting the boundary that is
rubbing against them the wrongway.
Would you agree with?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
that, yeah, okay, I definitely, definitely agree,
because the thing is it's arelationship, no matter if it's
a personal one or it's abusiness one.
Whenever you enter into anagreement with a client, it's a
mutual agreement that, hey,these are the things that you're
doing, to be doing here, thethings that you can expect from
me.
And I think a lot of peoplemiss that, especially in the
(35:29):
online space, I see it a lotwhere it's almost like the
business owner is pretty clearon what they need to do and the
client is like literallycontinuously caught.
Surprise, like it's a birthdayparty where you're jumping out
of a cave and surprise is whatthey need to be done.
And then the business ownerwill be like you know what
you're doing, the work, you'redisengaged and all that stuff,
(35:51):
when the truth of the matter is,you literally just caught me
with my pants.
You continuously put me in aposition where I'm always with
my pants down and then you'reexpecting me to be my best,
right.
And so when we talk about goingback to what you were saying
about this, on settingboundaries in a way that honors
your clients and honors you,it's about being able to set
those expectations right Off togo Right, I believe that on
(36:15):
board, that season aroundcontracts and on onboarding is
so critical, right yeah, mybackground is in project
management, is in programmanagement and data analytics
and all that stuff, and one ofthe most, the one of the key
things to make a project very,very successful was a kickoff
meeting when everybody cametogether and every expectations
(36:38):
were clear, as in all, these arethe things that we're going to
be doing here at the time andthe timelines that we're going
to be doing it.
Here's a budget that we'reworking with, et cetera.
So everybody was on the samepage, right yeah, and that's
something that's missing a lotwith business owners.
You start working and you knowwhat you're doing and the client
just gets surprised along theway like your birthday, yeah,
jump up, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Absolutely.
I love this.
I think that you know that'ssomething that we tend to miss a
lot of in our society and ourculture these days.
It's such a me centric society.
You know, everything is aboutme and I must be comfortable and
my needs must be met andeverybody else can like it or
lump it, and I feel like it'ssuch a it's such a departure
(37:21):
from the way we really shouldwant to do business and want to
have relationships, because whenyou are constantly stuck in
that me centric view, it's allabout me first.
Like, yes, honor yourselfAbsolutely.
I'm not the.
I'm not going to sit here andsay you need to people, please,
or anything like that.
Like, absolutely, honoryourself, but remember that it's
a human.
On the other side of it too,right, and nobody I mean okay, I
(37:45):
won't say nobody, becausenothing is around 100%.
But very rarely do humans setout too intentionally cross your
boundaries to intentionallycause you harm, to intentionally
make you feel however you arefeeling about a certain
situation.
Very, very rarely in life doesthat happen intentionally.
And so if we can start comingto these conversations with an
(38:09):
understanding that that personis a human, they are trying to
get through this just like youare yes, right, then maybe we
can deflect some of the conflictthat seems to be cropping up in
business situations and whatnot.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
I definitely 100% agree with you.
I co-signed that, co-signingyeah, with everything on it,
because you are definitely right.
We need to understand that nomoney is an island and, at the
end of the day, is two peopleworking together, whether it's
(38:47):
you are working directly withyour client or your client is
working directly with your team.
So people working together andone of the things that I know,
for example, my client's love ismaintaining relationships,
because guess what?
The money is also in therelationship.
It's not just a one-off thing ofworking with a client.
These are clients who, if theylove you and everything works
(39:08):
out well and it's a goodexperience for them they are the
same ones who want to work withyou again.
They are the same ones who wantto sing your name abroad
because, guess what?
This is somebody who isreliable.
This is somebody who honors meas a human being and who honors
themselves as a human being.
We have come together to makesuch an experience around that,
(39:32):
so I definitely definitely agreewith you around that.
Definitely, I have.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I have often said sales is the byproduct of
genuine connection, and whenyou're able to do that, then
that's when the money starts toflow.
So I'm glad that we got on thesame page about that.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
I know it's not about customers' success from a money
perspective often.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
No, but it's all tied together.
Let's be honest.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, it all yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Amazing.
This has been such a greatconversation.
Where can people find you,chanel, if they want to get in
touch?
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Before people can find me.
You asked an interestingquestion earlier about how to.
Yes, like you're already in therelationship, things are going
haywire, yeah.
Like what can you re?
I like to call this the pivot.
You can reset your boundariesat any point.
You can set new expectations atany point, especially long
(40:29):
standing relationships.
Right, the Sucat and man andWoman relationship.
We are the same person.
If we've been with our partnerfor a while, we're the same
person we were when we startedwith them.
Expectations change and it'sokay to adjust.
Right.
It's same with long standingbusiness relationship.
Expectations will change.
The scope of what you're doingwith change is okay to take a
(40:50):
pause, assess where you are atand then reestablish boundaries
from there.
You do yourself a disservicewhen you don't.
You do your plans of disservicewhen you don't.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I love it.
You're allowed to change yourmind.
You're allowed to change yourmind.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
You are, you are, so that's.
Oh, you asked me, where canpeople find me?
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yes, where can they find you?
Because they need to yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Two main ways to find me.
You can find me on FacebookChanel thinking Coco Chanel.
I'm Chanel number one, neverChanel number five, chanel
number six.
Yeah, I like that.
That's my name.
My name is so unique Chanel androbe.
On Facebook.
Or you can drop me an email atChanel, which is my first name
(41:40):
at the robewaycom.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Wonderful.
There you go, get out, connectwith her.
She's amazing.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This has been such a greatconversation.
And remember you can havesuccess without the BS.
That's it for this week.
Thanks for listening to thebusiness blasphemy podcast.
We'll be back next week with anew episode, but in the meantime
(42:03):
, help us this throughout bysubscribing and, if you're
feeling extra sassy rating thispodcast, and don't forget to
share the podcast with others.
Head over to business blasphemypodcastcom to connect with us
and learn more.
Thanks for listening andremember you can have success
without the BS.
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