October 27, 2025 • 29 mins
Had an AHA or Insight? Share it:
Why are healthcare costs skyrocketing for small businesses—while coverage keeps getting worse? 🤯 Benefits are important incentives for businesses to provide to their employees. And then you find out how your “advisor” really gets paid.
In this episode of the Business Growth Architect Show: Founders of the Future, I sit down with Donovan Pyle, a former benefits broker who was fired for calling out the lack of fiduciary duty to their insurance clients. He uncovered how brokers profit from rising costs instead of saving clients money and that’s when he had to do something about it.
Donovan exposes the truth and explains how a founder and small business owner can get a lot more coverage for a lot less. This conversation dives deep into ethics, courage, and what it really takes to build systems that serve people—not profits.
If you’ve been taken advantage of by consistently rising premiums and bad coverage this one will hit close to home.
👉 Learn more about Donovan’s work: https://donovanpyle.com/
🎧 Watch now and discover how one decision can change an entire industry.
➡️ Subscribe for more conversations with visionary thinkers challenging the systems we’ve outgrown.
💬 Share this episode with a leader who’s ready to do what’s right, even when it’s hard.
Other Resources Mentioned: Website | LinkedIn | YouTube
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Donovan Pyle (00:00):
I was fired from the last job that I had. I
(00:04):
thought my job was to act in afiduciary capacity. Turns out
that that could get you in alittle bit of trouble. Brokers
make more money when theemployer's health care costs go
up, not down. It would haveviolated my integrity and belief
systems at a very deep level,when I was told You're being too
(00:27):
hard on this health insurer.
They pay us our largest bonuseach year, that's when the light
bulb went off. I shattered myankle. Emily's pregnant with our
first child. There is no plan Beither. We're going to fix it in
an orderly fashion or we'regoing to have even bigger
political problems than we havetoday.
BEATE CHELETTE (00:49):
Today's guest, Donovan Pyle, was fired from his
job. Donovan, what the heck didyou do?
Donovan Pyle (01:00):
Wow, this was quite the opening. That is true.
I was fired from the last jobthat I had, and I was working
for a national employee benefitsbrokerage firm with which
probably a lot of people don'teven know what that is. But yes,
I was basically fired foradvocating on behalf of our
customers. I thought my job wasto act in a fiduciary capacity
(01:22):
to them and serve them in thatway. Turns out that that could
get you in a little bit oftrouble because of the financial
incentives that are completelymisaligned with businesses. So I
just didn't understand a job,and that's a problem.
BEATE CHELETTE (01:36):
So I want to dive into this, and thank you
for letting me ask you thisreally super provocative
question at the very beginning,because, but you are not a guy
who shies away from controversy,so I figured you're the perfect
guest for doing something likethis. Take me through what I
think it is and what it reallyis in your industry, sure.
Donovan Pyle (01:57):
So just to level set for the audience here, so
businesses in the United Statescover 164 million Americans with
health care benefits. And here'sthe thing, 81% of businesses
rely on benefits brokers to helpthem get the most value for
(02:17):
their money. In other words,we're going to spend all this
money on health care andbenefits, and since, let's face
it, most CFOs and finance teamshave little to no training or
expertise in health carefinancing or procurement. And HR
professionals often have literalor no training in this area as
well. They rely on the financialrecommendations of brokers to
(02:43):
help them get the most value fortheir money. That is what the
expectation is with thatrelationship. However, I think a
lot of business owners,executives CFOs, have forgotten
or never knew the history of theindustry. The benefits.
(03:03):
Brokerage industry was notdeveloped to help you maximize
the return on your investmentand get the most value. It was
developed to simply sellinsurance products for insurers.
That's what it was developed todo, and that is the dominant way
that it gets that the brokerageindustry gets compensated some
(03:24):
80 years later.
BEATE CHELETTE (03:26):
So here you are.
So you are all enthusiastic. Youwant to help people. You get
hired by this company. You doyour job, you make good money.
And then what exactly did youdiscover? Where you went? Hell
no,
Donovan Pyle (03:44):
yeah. So basically, because the brokerage
industry was developed to sellproducts for insurers. For
health insurers, they get paidby health insurers to sell their
products. They're their numberone distribution partners are
brokers. And so the disconnectis that basically, because
(04:05):
brokers work, in many cases on acommission basis, and they also
get paid bonuses from insurersfor reaching certain sales
targets at the end of the day,brokers make more money when the
employer's health care costs goup, not down. There's the old
Charlie Munger quote reallyapplies here. "Show me an
(04:28):
incentive and I'll show you anoutcome." And it's no wonder
that health healthcare is hasbecome, for many businesses, a
top three expense and also thefastest growing financial risk
on their P & L in many cases,and it's all about incentives.
(04:48):
So now
BEATE CHELETTE (04:49):
here you are. It almost sounds to me like you
were at a moral crossroads here,right? So now you are okay. I
have the choice here. Isn't thislike the Tom Cruise movie, The
Firm? Or something like that,where you're where you realize
that if you do it the way theylay it out for you, you make
more money, but if you do it theway they lay it out for you,
(05:11):
then you're violating thefiduciary duty. Take me through
that moment. Take me throughthat trigger moment, that that
defining moment where you said Icannot do this,
Donovan Pyle (05:23):
yeah, so I mean, it's it's more than that. I
couldn't fulfill my obligationas a fiduciary, which is the way
I want it to work, but it wouldhave created, resulted in a
moral injury, right? It wouldhave violated my integrity and
belief systems at a very deeplevel. If the brokerage industry
was, frankly, transparent abouttheir business model and who
(05:45):
they actually serve, I wouldhave no bone to pick with them
whatsoever, and I wouldn't havegone and worked for a national
brokerage firm. But becausethey're not transparent about
it, they, in many cases, hidethese backdoor revenue streams
paid by insurers and pharmacybenefit managers. From my
perspective, they're committingfraud. When I was told during my
(06:08):
termination that, hey, you'rebeing too hard on this health
insurer, and by the way, theypay us our largest bonus each
year. We don't like what you'redoing, that's when the light
bulb went off for me. And Isaid, You know what, I've been
reading and talking to peoplewho have been really developing
a different revenue model sothat they can serve employers in
(06:31):
a fiduciary capacity and givethem unbiased advice they can
financially align their revenuemodel their compensation to
align with the employer'sobjectives. I said, You know
what? I want to move in thatdirection too. And honestly, the
company that fired me, they letme keep a new customer that I
just brought on, like two weeksbefore that, and they let me
(06:54):
keep that one client because theCEO of that 150 life business
happened to be my uncle, and sothere was a couple motivations
for for starting a fiduciarybased management consulting firm
in 2018 and so one of one ofthem was that I really wanted to
(07:15):
challenge the brokerage industryand show employers, Hey, here's
a different way of gettingunbiased advice that will help
you achieve your objectives. Andthen two, I needed to, really
need it to save face with withmy uncle and help them in the
years following my termination,I built them a bespoke health
plan, which saved their or theircompany over $3,000 per employee
(07:40):
that year and got them waybetter benefits. They parlayed
that and actually exited at anice multiple the year after. So
it worked out really well forthem, and it was a great case
study right out of the gate. Butyeah, it was a very it was an
extremely challenging time, andthere were some personal things
going on, yeah,
BEATE CHELETTE (07:59):
well, let's talk about that, because you make it
sound like it was just a moraldilemma. It was not just a moral
dilemma you had. You had a wholelot of other stuff going on. Don
when we talked about in the showthat the intersection of
spirituality and strategy reallymeans that when you walk away
from doing the wrong thing, whenyou're stepping into doing the
right thing, it's not exactlylike people handing you bonuses
(08:21):
and roses and take good care ofyou, but they are taking but you
are often in a completebreakdown before you get the
breakthrough, before you getthrough the break breakout. And
I want to stay on that. So whatwas going on in your life?
Because you had, and I'm goingto say this very clear, you had
a bunch of Oh shit, moments inthat, in that, in that scenario,
Donovan Pyle (08:44):
yeah, for sure. So let me just back up a little bit
more before I joined thebrokerage side of the business.
Benefits brokers were actuallymy customers. I work for a
multinational insurance company,great company, and benefits
brokers were our customers. Wesold our products through
benefits brokers who sold themto employers. I'd be going to
(09:05):
these open enrollment meetingswith the broker, and too often,
the executives were gettingpissed off, the employees were
pissed off, and these openenrollment meetings were so sad,
because the employer's healthcare costs were going up. They
were watering down the coverage.
They were shifting costs to theemployees, yada yada yada.
People were mad. I live inOrlando, Florida, where we're
(09:27):
very lucky to have a pioneer inthis area by the name of Harris
Rosen, who bootstrapped Rosenhotels in 1974 and in 1991
developed what would becomerosencare, he actually pioneered
his own ways of financing andprocuring healthcare for his
employees at his hotels. Sincethen, over the next 30 years, he
(09:52):
saved his company over a half abillion dollars on healthcare,
not. Not only that, but he didit by providing a superior plan
to his employees, and so much sothat his turnover rates were a
fraction of what his competitorsare in the hospitality industry.
(10:12):
And he's able to he was able todo all kinds of great
philanthropic work, and in ourcommunities, he's actually more
he unfortunately passed lastyear during the writing of my
book. But he's more well knownfor his philanthropic work than
anything else, and so you justthink about the legacy that he
Harris Rosen left because hestarted, he figured out how to
(10:33):
stop wasting and overpaying forhealthcare for his employees. So
fast forward. I was veryinspired by his work, and I kept
on wondering, why don't morebrokers at least recommend some
of the strategies and solutionsthat Mr. Rosen had pioneered 30
years prior to that? And I verynaively thought, Geez, if I just
(10:53):
moved to the brokerage side ofthe business, I can probably
scale these innovativesolutions. I can probably help
some people, and I might evenmake some money doing it. And as
I learned, that's not thebusiness that the brokerage
industry is in whatsoever. Andso that's a problem. But going
back to your question, what wasgoing on in my personal life? So
basically, when you work for anational brokerage firm, they'll
(11:16):
many of them will give you twooptions. You can work on 100%
commission basis, because you'retaking on a lot more risk. Are
you just eating what you kill?
There's a lot more potentialupside, right? Or you can work
with a base salary and get muchless upside based on your sales.
I said, You know what? I've beenplanning this move for several
(11:36):
years. I've saved some moneyaway. I'm going to work on 100%
commission basis. So I basicallydidn't make any money. Make any
money for about six months whileI was while I was building a
book of business. It's a verylong sales cycle thing. It's
things take a long time to getgoing. But I had fallen in love
with my wife and and we had justpurchased our dream home that
(11:58):
was one of the oldest houses inour community and and we did you
BEATE CHELETTE (12:03):
just say fixer upper?
Donovan Pyle (12:05):
Oh yes, yes, yes, I did. I did. And we were fixing
it up. Not only that, we had,like, we had basically demoed,
like, half the house, like,completely gutted it. We were
doing most of the workourselves. We were working 16
hours a day for a long time, andso I basically taken on a lot of
risk throughout this year tohelp get us where we want to be.
(12:28):
When I got fired, I was like,Well, my goodness, look at, look
at what's going on here. I wasjust starting to make money from
the sales I had made. The housewas in complete shambles. And
then I did this is, I mean, thisis just ridiculous. Two weeks
after that, I, like, severelyshattered my ankle working out
in the house, so now I'm in thehospital. And a few weeks after
(12:50):
that, we find out that Emily'spregnant with our first child.
So you talk about a pressurecooker. This was an enormous
amount of stress. And I say allthat with the context that,
listen, I'm a white guy that wasborn in America in the 20th
century. I got no problems,right? But yes, this was an
insane amount of stress. And sothe only option, really was just
(13:11):
an enormous amount of focus ongetting this business off the
ground, making sure that myfirst client was successful, and
in taking care of my family,there's nothing like a lot of
stress to really get you, getyou motivated and get in gear.
So
BEATE CHELETTE (13:27):
that's that, I think, that they call that when
there is no plan B, there
Donovan Pyle (13:31):
is no plan B, well, yeah, well, yeah, you make
your own plan B, right? I mean,you got to figure it out. And,
you know, I had a leader in myBoy Scout troop when I was a kid
and when I went off to college,he said, listen, when plan A
doesn't work, go to plan B, whenthat doesn't work, go to plan C,
and on and on and on. And he wasright. I mean, if you think
about it, life, life can bedifficult, so you got to just be
(13:54):
persistent and tenacious in thatway.
BEATE CHELETTE (13:57):
I really want our audience just to go through
this here for a second so you'rediscovering that there's really
something going on in anindustry where making money and
meeting a bottom line has becomemore important than doing what
the integrity or what the spiritof the business was, which is to
help people to remain healthy,to help employers to give good
(14:18):
incentives so that theiremployees are taken care of and
now it's just an expense. Yousaid something to me that really
stuck with me. You said there'sa difference between buying
health care and buying healthinsurance. What's the
difference?
Donovan Pyle (14:35):
So lots of businesses and executives are
under the assumption that,listen, we buy the insurance and
we rely on the insurance companyto manage our healthcare supply
chain. Let me explain. We relyon the insurance company to
negotiate the discounts, whichequals a price on how much we're
(14:57):
paying for hospitalizations,surgeries. Is labs, imaging and
drugs, they delegate themanagement of that healthcare
supply chain to health insurersand brokers. If the financial
incentives were aligned, thatwould all be good and fine and
but the reality is that the waythat the regulatory environment
(15:18):
is structured and the way thatthe market conditions are
structured right now, healthinsurers actually make more
money when the underlying costsof hospitalization, surgeries,
labs and imaging and drugs goup, not down. Did
BEATE CHELETTE (15:35):
you just say they make a commission? Yeah,
the more I so if I get sick,let's say I go with my shattered
ankle from my renovation intothe hospital. If they sold me a
shitty insurance and my copayments and my plan costs me a
lot of money. Are you sayingthat they're getting an
(15:55):
incentive for that? Yeah.
Donovan Pyle (15:56):
So, yeah. So basically, it's essentially a
cost plus price fixing scheme.
Under federal law in the UnitedStates, insurers have to spend
85 cents on every premium dollaron claims, and if they don't
spend that money, they got togive the remainder back to the
employer. And so Beate thatthey're publicly traded
companies, and they've saturatedthe marketplace. They're not
(16:19):
looking to reduce the revenueslash premiums for the employer.
They want their the more theircost basis goes up, the higher
their share value goes up. Soit's a very interesting
regulatory environment in whichthey work. But just to back up a
second, you know, one of thechapters that I have in my book
(16:41):
is on the history of thisindustry. And I think people
will find this reallyfascinating that, you know,
health insurance was actuallydeveloped not to help patients
necessarily mitigate risk. Itwas really developed to help
hospitals during the 1930sduring the Great Depression, to
(17:02):
stabilize their revenues. Yeah,prior to 1929 there was no such
thing as health insurance, andso I detailed they went to the
hospital. They couldn't affordit back in the 1900s if you ever
watched the great I think it'san HBO special called the Nick
about a hospital in lowerManhattan in the year 1900 they
couldn't really cure people,right? I mean, they're saying
(17:25):
was, their mantra was to keeppeople comfortable, etc, to keep
people comfortable always, tocure seldom. I mean, it was
something along those lines,just acknowledging that, like,
listen, we're really not capableof doing a whole of helping a
lot of these people. We can keepthem comfortable, but we're not
going to cure most of thesepeople. We just don't know how.
But as you know, medicaladvancements came to the fore,
(17:46):
and they started able to curepeople, and they started they
had to train doctors andsterilize hospitals and all
these different things. They hadto increase their prices, and
many, many of their patientscouldn't afford to pay for it.
So Baylor University Hospital inDallas, Texas, said, You know
what? We have an idea. What ifwe got patients we partnered
with a large employer in ourarea and had them pre pay for
(18:09):
our services. What would thatlook like? And so they struck a
deal with Dallas, the Dallasteachers union, and said, Listen
for 50 cents per employee permonth, your teachers can come to
our nice, clean hospital anddeliver their babies. And that
became the first Blue Crossplan, and they they rebranded it
as Blue Cross in 1934 here's thekicker, though, here's the
(18:34):
thing, exact hospital executivesacross the country saw the
success of this program and howit's how it's helped help
stabilize hospital revenues. Andthey said, Geez, how can we
develop our own Blue Cross plansin our own region so that we can
stabilize our revenues? And sothey actually put up the seed
(18:55):
money to found health insurers.
They created health insurers asa distribution vehicle for their
hospital services.
BEATE CHELETTE (19:05):
It's just fascinating. You know what it
reminds me of? I was doing anaudit of my life insurance, you
know, maybe like 10 years ago,and I realized that the
insurance, there's the cashvalue, and there's the death
benefit, and I realized that ifI continued to pay I the amount
that they wanted me to Iliterally had absolutely no
(19:27):
benefit, because my deathbenefit would not go up, and
neither would you mean my cashvalue may have gone up an
insignificant amount of money.
And so I asked them, and I said,Well, are you saying that if I
pay $500 a year versus $160 amonth. I'm still getting the
exact same coverage. And theysaid, Yes. I said, then why? Why
(19:52):
would I be paying more money toyou? I. If I don't get any
benefit. So it's almost likeyou're saying that there is a
knowledge in here that ispurposely withheld because it
makes the spreadsheet looksbetter. So what are we doing
(20:16):
instead? So now the businessowner is listening to this and
goes, I'm not liking the waythis sounds. What do you
recommend they
Donovan Pyle (20:27):
do? So basically, there are six steps for
healthcare transformation atyour organization, and let's
keep in mind of what the youknow. Why do you want to take
these steps? Well, in thecurrent state of things, the
average business overpays forhealthcare by $4,000 per
employee per year, and that's apretty conservative estimate.
(20:51):
Okay, so it's $4,000 that shouldbe sitting on your P and L for
every employee that you have atyour firm is going towards
health insurance, and it's beingwasted. I want executives
listening to to think about whatyou could do if you had even
just another $1,000 per employeeper year in profits for your
organization. What could you dowith that? You know, investing
(21:14):
in R and D, sales and marketing,on and on and on all these it
creates all of theseopportunities, which is
fantastic. But as far as thetransformation, how do you
unlock that trapped capital? Thefirst step is to get unbiased
advice. If you're not gettingunbiased advice on how to
maximize the return on yourbenefits investment, you have
(21:37):
absolutely no chance ofreclaiming that lost profit
because the people you'rerelying on financially benefit
from that waste. Okay? They'renot going to show you how to do
these things. The bet thebrokerage industry was designed
to sell products, not give youfinancial advice. Financial
advice is a service, right? It'sa very different business than
(22:01):
selling insurance products, andso they're just not tool to do
that. So where do you findunbiased advice? How do you get
it? There are two ways. Numberone, you can do what you know.
People like Mark Cuban have beenadvocating for across the
country with CEOs, and he'ssaying, Listen, you need to
bring benefits expertise inhouse. So if you're a company
(22:24):
that has more than a few 1000employees, you absolutely want
to start strengthening yourbenefits team in house. This way
you're definitely gettingunbiased advice. They work for
you, right? They're on yourpayroll, okay? But there's a
whole bunch of companies outthere that don't have that scale
where bringing resources inhouse will necessarily make
(22:44):
sense. So what do thosebusinesses do? So for those
businesses, what you want to dois you want to find and partner
with a fiduciary basedmanagement consulting firm that
actually specializes inhealthcare, financing and
procurements, right? They willprotect your blind spots. They
(23:06):
serve in their contract with youas a fiduciary to you, and they
specialize in this area thatyour in house teams don't
understand, don't know where theland mines are, and they will
protect you. So for a list ofthem, you can go to there's an
organization in Boston calledthe validation Institute, full
(23:29):
disclosure on I'm a senioradvisor there, but they have a
list of fiduciary basedmanagement consulting firms, and
I would invite you to take alook at them.
BEATE CHELETTE (23:37):
I like this a lot, and can I, but people can
just get out of their contractsright? Contracts usually are
done for the entire year, sothey'll have to do this ahead of
time and then wait until thecontracts are expiring in order
for them to
Donovan Pyle (23:52):
do this. Okay, can I level set there? I've got
that. I'm
BEATE CHELETTE (23:55):
asking these educate. I think this is so
freaking shocking to say thatI'm going to an insurance
company and I'm going to subjectmatter expert, because it's not
my subject matter expertise, butall the time, they're only
incentivized to line their ownpocketbooks and not really watch
out for me. Sort of watch outfor me. Ish,
Donovan Pyle (24:17):
ish. There's a layer of apathy. Okay? And
listen, I want to be perfectlyclear, America needs benefits
professionals now more thanever. Okay, and there are
thousands and thousands ofbenefits professionals across
the country who tirelessly workto help their customers. The
(24:40):
challenge, though, is that theyare stuck in a legacy system
that does not reward them fordoing so. Okay, so think about
this, the more effective you areat your job, right? The less
money you're going to make. Whowants to do that? Nobody. Nobody
wants to do that. So what? I'mtrying to do with my work here,
(25:02):
as far as the industry goes, isto shine a light on and say,
Listen, here is a path forwardto evolve so that you can
actually be rewarded for doingthe right things and helping
your customers and giving themwhat they need. Don't get
penalized for helping yourcustomers. Nobody wants to work
(25:24):
in that environment, especiallywith the younger generation.
They don't want that. They wanta mission. They are mission
driven people. If we look deepdown inside, we want a purpose
and we want a mission. So I justwant to put that caveat out
there. It
BEATE CHELETTE (25:35):
sounds like what you're saying is, if you came to
me and I have, let's say, 2030employees, and you're telling me
that you're saving me onaverage, 20, 30,000 $40,000 a
year on, and I'm getting betterbenefits. And when they have
babies and they're being bettertaken care of, why would I not
(25:55):
want to pay you an incentive forthat 100%
Donovan Pyle (25:59):
I mean, if any marketing company. If there are
any marketing companieslistening, and
BEATE CHELETTE (26:03):
you want to hello and you want to work on a
Hello, are you here? Yes. Areyou listening?
Donovan Pyle (26:09):
I will give you my email address, and let's
schedule a meeting right now. Ifyou want to work on a
performance basis, let's do it.
Let's go. I'm all ears. Andyeah, I mean, it's just That's
how powerful incentives are so,yes, I mean, but so here's the
thing I want to I want to goback to your previous comments
about the timing of when you canswitch benefits firms, when you
can switch from a broker to amanagement consulting firm.
(26:33):
Here's an analogy that kind ofdescribes the role, and that is
that you know your broker oryour management consulting firm.
They are your navigator on theship. They're the one pointing
the ship in a particulardirection and hopefully getting
you to where you want to go asan organization. They are not
the ship themselves. The shipthemselves is the health
(26:57):
insurance products, thepolicies, yada yada yada
underneath that, okay, so youcan change your navigator almost
any time without changing yourship. Okay. The only exception
to that rule that I would say isthat you don't want to change
your navigators right beforeyour renewal date, because, you
know, it's kind of there iscertainly an implementation
(27:19):
process. And to mix metaphors,you don't want to start
remodeling your kitchen theweekend before Thanksgiving.
Probably not a good idea, butyou don't. What you don't want
to do is wait till you know youget this 30% renewal increase
and then say, oh geez, we shouldprobably start looking for a
second opinion. That's going tobe a tough, tough time to tackle
that
BEATE CHELETTE (27:40):
problem. Thank you for that. And so for
somebody who now goes, I reallycannot do this by myself, why
don't I talk to Donovan? Wheredo we send them? Donovan? What
help do you have for
Donovan Pyle (27:49):
us? Sure, so you can go to fixinghealthcare.com
and we're building out a bunchof resources there. And, yeah,
just reach out and grab anexecutive summary of my book,
which is coming out tomid-November, and happy to have
a conversation.
BEATE CHELETTE (28:05):
And I really appreciate you coming on the
show and sharing some of thisinformation. Thanks so much.
Yeah, I'll be, you know, I thinkthis really good information.
This information does need to beout there, and I'll be more than
happy to help you in any way Ican, because this is, this is
not right. What's being done,
Donovan Pyle (28:22):
agreed, it's not only not right, it's not
sustainable either. So eitherwe're going to fix it through in
an orderly fashion, or we'regoing to have, you know, even
bigger political problems thanwe have today, 100%
BEATE CHELETTE (28:33):
thank you so much for being on the show, and
that is it for us for today.
Thank you, and thank youeverybody for listening. If you
like this show, please sharethis episode with somebody who
needs to hear what we talkedabout today, and I see you again
next time. And goodbye. That'sit for this episode of the
Business Growth Architect Show,Founders of the Future. If
you're done playing small andready to build the future on
(28:54):
your terms, subscribe, share andhelp us reach more Trailblazers
like you. And if you're seriousabout creating, growing and
scaling a business that'saligned with who you are,
schedule your uncovery sessionat uncoverysession.com lead with
vision. Move with purpose.
Create your future.
I was fired from the last job that I had. I
(00:04):
thought my job was to act in afiduciary capacity. Turns out
that that could get you in alittle bit of trouble. Brokers
make more money when theemployer's health care costs go
up, not down. It would haveviolated my integrity and belief
systems at a very deep level,when I was told You're being too
(00:27):
hard on this health insurer.
They pay us our largest bonuseach year, that's when the light
bulb went off. I shattered myankle. Emily's pregnant with our
first child. There is no plan Beither. We're going to fix it in
an orderly fashion or we'regoing to have even bigger
political problems than we havetoday.
BEATE CHELETTE (00:49):
Today's guest, Donovan Pyle, was fired from his
job. Donovan, what the heck didyou do?
Donovan Pyle (01:00):
Wow, this was quite the opening. That is true.
I was fired from the last jobthat I had, and I was working
for a national employee benefitsbrokerage firm with which
probably a lot of people don'teven know what that is. But yes,
I was basically fired foradvocating on behalf of our
customers. I thought my job wasto act in a fiduciary capacity
(01:22):
to them and serve them in thatway. Turns out that that could
get you in a little bit oftrouble because of the financial
incentives that are completelymisaligned with businesses. So I
just didn't understand a job,and that's a problem.
BEATE CHELETTE (01:36):
So I want to dive into this, and thank you
for letting me ask you thisreally super provocative
question at the very beginning,because, but you are not a guy
who shies away from controversy,so I figured you're the perfect
guest for doing something likethis. Take me through what I
think it is and what it reallyis in your industry, sure.
Donovan Pyle (01:57):
So just to level set for the audience here, so
businesses in the United Statescover 164 million Americans with
health care benefits. And here'sthe thing, 81% of businesses
rely on benefits brokers to helpthem get the most value for
(02:17):
their money. In other words,we're going to spend all this
money on health care andbenefits, and since, let's face
it, most CFOs and finance teamshave little to no training or
expertise in health carefinancing or procurement. And HR
professionals often have literalor no training in this area as
well. They rely on the financialrecommendations of brokers to
(02:43):
help them get the most value fortheir money. That is what the
expectation is with thatrelationship. However, I think a
lot of business owners,executives CFOs, have forgotten
or never knew the history of theindustry. The benefits.
(03:03):
Brokerage industry was notdeveloped to help you maximize
the return on your investmentand get the most value. It was
developed to simply sellinsurance products for insurers.
That's what it was developed todo, and that is the dominant way
that it gets that the brokerageindustry gets compensated some
(03:24):
80 years later.
BEATE CHELETTE (03:26):
So here you are.
So you are all enthusiastic. Youwant to help people. You get
hired by this company. You doyour job, you make good money.
And then what exactly did youdiscover? Where you went? Hell
no,
Donovan Pyle (03:44):
yeah. So basically, because the brokerage
industry was developed to sellproducts for insurers. For
health insurers, they get paidby health insurers to sell their
products. They're their numberone distribution partners are
brokers. And so the disconnectis that basically, because
(04:05):
brokers work, in many cases on acommission basis, and they also
get paid bonuses from insurersfor reaching certain sales
targets at the end of the day,brokers make more money when the
employer's health care costs goup, not down. There's the old
Charlie Munger quote reallyapplies here. "Show me an
(04:28):
incentive and I'll show you anoutcome." And it's no wonder
that health healthcare is hasbecome, for many businesses, a
top three expense and also thefastest growing financial risk
on their P & L in many cases,and it's all about incentives.
(04:48):
So now
BEATE CHELETTE (04:49):
here you are. It almost sounds to me like you
were at a moral crossroads here,right? So now you are okay. I
have the choice here. Isn't thislike the Tom Cruise movie, The
Firm? Or something like that,where you're where you realize
that if you do it the way theylay it out for you, you make
more money, but if you do it theway they lay it out for you,
(05:11):
then you're violating thefiduciary duty. Take me through
that moment. Take me throughthat trigger moment, that that
defining moment where you said Icannot do this,
Donovan Pyle (05:23):
yeah, so I mean, it's it's more than that. I
couldn't fulfill my obligationas a fiduciary, which is the way
I want it to work, but it wouldhave created, resulted in a
moral injury, right? It wouldhave violated my integrity and
belief systems at a very deeplevel. If the brokerage industry
was, frankly, transparent abouttheir business model and who
(05:45):
they actually serve, I wouldhave no bone to pick with them
whatsoever, and I wouldn't havegone and worked for a national
brokerage firm. But becausethey're not transparent about
it, they, in many cases, hidethese backdoor revenue streams
paid by insurers and pharmacybenefit managers. From my
perspective, they're committingfraud. When I was told during my
(06:08):
termination that, hey, you'rebeing too hard on this health
insurer, and by the way, theypay us our largest bonus each
year. We don't like what you'redoing, that's when the light
bulb went off for me. And Isaid, You know what, I've been
reading and talking to peoplewho have been really developing
a different revenue model sothat they can serve employers in
(06:31):
a fiduciary capacity and givethem unbiased advice they can
financially align their revenuemodel their compensation to
align with the employer'sobjectives. I said, You know
what? I want to move in thatdirection too. And honestly, the
company that fired me, they letme keep a new customer that I
just brought on, like two weeksbefore that, and they let me
(06:54):
keep that one client because theCEO of that 150 life business
happened to be my uncle, and sothere was a couple motivations
for for starting a fiduciarybased management consulting firm
in 2018 and so one of one ofthem was that I really wanted to
(07:15):
challenge the brokerage industryand show employers, Hey, here's
a different way of gettingunbiased advice that will help
you achieve your objectives. Andthen two, I needed to, really
need it to save face with withmy uncle and help them in the
years following my termination,I built them a bespoke health
plan, which saved their or theircompany over $3,000 per employee
(07:40):
that year and got them waybetter benefits. They parlayed
that and actually exited at anice multiple the year after. So
it worked out really well forthem, and it was a great case
study right out of the gate. Butyeah, it was a very it was an
extremely challenging time, andthere were some personal things
going on, yeah,
BEATE CHELETTE (07:59):
well, let's talk about that, because you make it
sound like it was just a moraldilemma. It was not just a moral
dilemma you had. You had a wholelot of other stuff going on. Don
when we talked about in the showthat the intersection of
spirituality and strategy reallymeans that when you walk away
from doing the wrong thing, whenyou're stepping into doing the
right thing, it's not exactlylike people handing you bonuses
(08:21):
and roses and take good care ofyou, but they are taking but you
are often in a completebreakdown before you get the
breakthrough, before you getthrough the break breakout. And
I want to stay on that. So whatwas going on in your life?
Because you had, and I'm goingto say this very clear, you had
a bunch of Oh shit, moments inthat, in that, in that scenario,
Donovan Pyle (08:44):
yeah, for sure. So let me just back up a little bit
more before I joined thebrokerage side of the business.
Benefits brokers were actuallymy customers. I work for a
multinational insurance company,great company, and benefits
brokers were our customers. Wesold our products through
benefits brokers who sold themto employers. I'd be going to
(09:05):
these open enrollment meetingswith the broker, and too often,
the executives were gettingpissed off, the employees were
pissed off, and these openenrollment meetings were so sad,
because the employer's healthcare costs were going up. They
were watering down the coverage.
They were shifting costs to theemployees, yada yada yada.
People were mad. I live inOrlando, Florida, where we're
(09:27):
very lucky to have a pioneer inthis area by the name of Harris
Rosen, who bootstrapped Rosenhotels in 1974 and in 1991
developed what would becomerosencare, he actually pioneered
his own ways of financing andprocuring healthcare for his
employees at his hotels. Sincethen, over the next 30 years, he
(09:52):
saved his company over a half abillion dollars on healthcare,
not. Not only that, but he didit by providing a superior plan
to his employees, and so much sothat his turnover rates were a
fraction of what his competitorsare in the hospitality industry.
(10:12):
And he's able to he was able todo all kinds of great
philanthropic work, and in ourcommunities, he's actually more
he unfortunately passed lastyear during the writing of my
book. But he's more well knownfor his philanthropic work than
anything else, and so you justthink about the legacy that he
Harris Rosen left because hestarted, he figured out how to
(10:33):
stop wasting and overpaying forhealthcare for his employees. So
fast forward. I was veryinspired by his work, and I kept
on wondering, why don't morebrokers at least recommend some
of the strategies and solutionsthat Mr. Rosen had pioneered 30
years prior to that? And I verynaively thought, Geez, if I just
(10:53):
moved to the brokerage side ofthe business, I can probably
scale these innovativesolutions. I can probably help
some people, and I might evenmake some money doing it. And as
I learned, that's not thebusiness that the brokerage
industry is in whatsoever. Andso that's a problem. But going
back to your question, what wasgoing on in my personal life? So
basically, when you work for anational brokerage firm, they'll
(11:16):
many of them will give you twooptions. You can work on 100%
commission basis, because you'retaking on a lot more risk. Are
you just eating what you kill?
There's a lot more potentialupside, right? Or you can work
with a base salary and get muchless upside based on your sales.
I said, You know what? I've beenplanning this move for several
(11:36):
years. I've saved some moneyaway. I'm going to work on 100%
commission basis. So I basicallydidn't make any money. Make any
money for about six months whileI was while I was building a
book of business. It's a verylong sales cycle thing. It's
things take a long time to getgoing. But I had fallen in love
with my wife and and we had justpurchased our dream home that
(11:58):
was one of the oldest houses inour community and and we did you
BEATE CHELETTE (12:03):
just say fixer upper?
Donovan Pyle (12:05):
Oh yes, yes, yes, I did. I did. And we were fixing
it up. Not only that, we had,like, we had basically demoed,
like, half the house, like,completely gutted it. We were
doing most of the workourselves. We were working 16
hours a day for a long time, andso I basically taken on a lot of
risk throughout this year tohelp get us where we want to be.
(12:28):
When I got fired, I was like,Well, my goodness, look at, look
at what's going on here. I wasjust starting to make money from
the sales I had made. The housewas in complete shambles. And
then I did this is, I mean, thisis just ridiculous. Two weeks
after that, I, like, severelyshattered my ankle working out
in the house, so now I'm in thehospital. And a few weeks after
(12:50):
that, we find out that Emily'spregnant with our first child.
So you talk about a pressurecooker. This was an enormous
amount of stress. And I say allthat with the context that,
listen, I'm a white guy that wasborn in America in the 20th
century. I got no problems,right? But yes, this was an
insane amount of stress. And sothe only option, really was just
(13:11):
an enormous amount of focus ongetting this business off the
ground, making sure that myfirst client was successful, and
in taking care of my family,there's nothing like a lot of
stress to really get you, getyou motivated and get in gear.
So
BEATE CHELETTE (13:27):
that's that, I think, that they call that when
there is no plan B, there
Donovan Pyle (13:31):
is no plan B, well, yeah, well, yeah, you make
your own plan B, right? I mean,you got to figure it out. And,
you know, I had a leader in myBoy Scout troop when I was a kid
and when I went off to college,he said, listen, when plan A
doesn't work, go to plan B, whenthat doesn't work, go to plan C,
and on and on and on. And he wasright. I mean, if you think
about it, life, life can bedifficult, so you got to just be
(13:54):
persistent and tenacious in thatway.
BEATE CHELETTE (13:57):
I really want our audience just to go through
this here for a second so you'rediscovering that there's really
something going on in anindustry where making money and
meeting a bottom line has becomemore important than doing what
the integrity or what the spiritof the business was, which is to
help people to remain healthy,to help employers to give good
(14:18):
incentives so that theiremployees are taken care of and
now it's just an expense. Yousaid something to me that really
stuck with me. You said there'sa difference between buying
health care and buying healthinsurance. What's the
difference?
Donovan Pyle (14:35):
So lots of businesses and executives are
under the assumption that,listen, we buy the insurance and
we rely on the insurance companyto manage our healthcare supply
chain. Let me explain. We relyon the insurance company to
negotiate the discounts, whichequals a price on how much we're
(14:57):
paying for hospitalizations,surgeries. Is labs, imaging and
drugs, they delegate themanagement of that healthcare
supply chain to health insurersand brokers. If the financial
incentives were aligned, thatwould all be good and fine and
but the reality is that the waythat the regulatory environment
(15:18):
is structured and the way thatthe market conditions are
structured right now, healthinsurers actually make more
money when the underlying costsof hospitalization, surgeries,
labs and imaging and drugs goup, not down. Did
BEATE CHELETTE (15:35):
you just say they make a commission? Yeah,
the more I so if I get sick,let's say I go with my shattered
ankle from my renovation intothe hospital. If they sold me a
shitty insurance and my copayments and my plan costs me a
lot of money. Are you sayingthat they're getting an
(15:55):
incentive for that? Yeah.
Donovan Pyle (15:56):
So, yeah. So basically, it's essentially a
cost plus price fixing scheme.
Under federal law in the UnitedStates, insurers have to spend
85 cents on every premium dollaron claims, and if they don't
spend that money, they got togive the remainder back to the
employer. And so Beate thatthey're publicly traded
companies, and they've saturatedthe marketplace. They're not
(16:19):
looking to reduce the revenueslash premiums for the employer.
They want their the more theircost basis goes up, the higher
their share value goes up. Soit's a very interesting
regulatory environment in whichthey work. But just to back up a
second, you know, one of thechapters that I have in my book
(16:41):
is on the history of thisindustry. And I think people
will find this reallyfascinating that, you know,
health insurance was actuallydeveloped not to help patients
necessarily mitigate risk. Itwas really developed to help
hospitals during the 1930sduring the Great Depression, to
(17:02):
stabilize their revenues. Yeah,prior to 1929 there was no such
thing as health insurance, andso I detailed they went to the
hospital. They couldn't affordit back in the 1900s if you ever
watched the great I think it'san HBO special called the Nick
about a hospital in lowerManhattan in the year 1900 they
couldn't really cure people,right? I mean, they're saying
(17:25):
was, their mantra was to keeppeople comfortable, etc, to keep
people comfortable always, tocure seldom. I mean, it was
something along those lines,just acknowledging that, like,
listen, we're really not capableof doing a whole of helping a
lot of these people. We can keepthem comfortable, but we're not
going to cure most of thesepeople. We just don't know how.
But as you know, medicaladvancements came to the fore,
(17:46):
and they started able to curepeople, and they started they
had to train doctors andsterilize hospitals and all
these different things. They hadto increase their prices, and
many, many of their patientscouldn't afford to pay for it.
So Baylor University Hospital inDallas, Texas, said, You know
what? We have an idea. What ifwe got patients we partnered
with a large employer in ourarea and had them pre pay for
(18:09):
our services. What would thatlook like? And so they struck a
deal with Dallas, the Dallasteachers union, and said, Listen
for 50 cents per employee permonth, your teachers can come to
our nice, clean hospital anddeliver their babies. And that
became the first Blue Crossplan, and they they rebranded it
as Blue Cross in 1934 here's thekicker, though, here's the
(18:34):
thing, exact hospital executivesacross the country saw the
success of this program and howit's how it's helped help
stabilize hospital revenues. Andthey said, Geez, how can we
develop our own Blue Cross plansin our own region so that we can
stabilize our revenues? And sothey actually put up the seed
(18:55):
money to found health insurers.
They created health insurers asa distribution vehicle for their
hospital services.
BEATE CHELETTE (19:05):
It's just fascinating. You know what it
reminds me of? I was doing anaudit of my life insurance, you
know, maybe like 10 years ago,and I realized that the
insurance, there's the cashvalue, and there's the death
benefit, and I realized that ifI continued to pay I the amount
that they wanted me to Iliterally had absolutely no
(19:27):
benefit, because my deathbenefit would not go up, and
neither would you mean my cashvalue may have gone up an
insignificant amount of money.
And so I asked them, and I said,Well, are you saying that if I
pay $500 a year versus $160 amonth. I'm still getting the
exact same coverage. And theysaid, Yes. I said, then why? Why
(19:52):
would I be paying more money toyou? I. If I don't get any
benefit. So it's almost likeyou're saying that there is a
knowledge in here that ispurposely withheld because it
makes the spreadsheet looksbetter. So what are we doing
(20:16):
instead? So now the businessowner is listening to this and
goes, I'm not liking the waythis sounds. What do you
recommend they
Donovan Pyle (20:27):
do? So basically, there are six steps for
healthcare transformation atyour organization, and let's
keep in mind of what the youknow. Why do you want to take
these steps? Well, in thecurrent state of things, the
average business overpays forhealthcare by $4,000 per
employee per year, and that's apretty conservative estimate.
(20:51):
Okay, so it's $4,000 that shouldbe sitting on your P and L for
every employee that you have atyour firm is going towards
health insurance, and it's beingwasted. I want executives
listening to to think about whatyou could do if you had even
just another $1,000 per employeeper year in profits for your
organization. What could you dowith that? You know, investing
(21:14):
in R and D, sales and marketing,on and on and on all these it
creates all of theseopportunities, which is
fantastic. But as far as thetransformation, how do you
unlock that trapped capital? Thefirst step is to get unbiased
advice. If you're not gettingunbiased advice on how to
maximize the return on yourbenefits investment, you have
(21:37):
absolutely no chance ofreclaiming that lost profit
because the people you'rerelying on financially benefit
from that waste. Okay? They'renot going to show you how to do
these things. The bet thebrokerage industry was designed
to sell products, not give youfinancial advice. Financial
advice is a service, right? It'sa very different business than
(22:01):
selling insurance products, andso they're just not tool to do
that. So where do you findunbiased advice? How do you get
it? There are two ways. Numberone, you can do what you know.
People like Mark Cuban have beenadvocating for across the
country with CEOs, and he'ssaying, Listen, you need to
bring benefits expertise inhouse. So if you're a company
(22:24):
that has more than a few 1000employees, you absolutely want
to start strengthening yourbenefits team in house. This way
you're definitely gettingunbiased advice. They work for
you, right? They're on yourpayroll, okay? But there's a
whole bunch of companies outthere that don't have that scale
where bringing resources inhouse will necessarily make
(22:44):
sense. So what do thosebusinesses do? So for those
businesses, what you want to dois you want to find and partner
with a fiduciary basedmanagement consulting firm that
actually specializes inhealthcare, financing and
procurements, right? They willprotect your blind spots. They
(23:06):
serve in their contract with youas a fiduciary to you, and they
specialize in this area thatyour in house teams don't
understand, don't know where theland mines are, and they will
protect you. So for a list ofthem, you can go to there's an
organization in Boston calledthe validation Institute, full
(23:29):
disclosure on I'm a senioradvisor there, but they have a
list of fiduciary basedmanagement consulting firms, and
I would invite you to take alook at them.
BEATE CHELETTE (23:37):
I like this a lot, and can I, but people can
just get out of their contractsright? Contracts usually are
done for the entire year, sothey'll have to do this ahead of
time and then wait until thecontracts are expiring in order
for them to
Donovan Pyle (23:52):
do this. Okay, can I level set there? I've got
that. I'm
BEATE CHELETTE (23:55):
asking these educate. I think this is so
freaking shocking to say thatI'm going to an insurance
company and I'm going to subjectmatter expert, because it's not
my subject matter expertise, butall the time, they're only
incentivized to line their ownpocketbooks and not really watch
out for me. Sort of watch outfor me. Ish,
Donovan Pyle (24:17):
ish. There's a layer of apathy. Okay? And
listen, I want to be perfectlyclear, America needs benefits
professionals now more thanever. Okay, and there are
thousands and thousands ofbenefits professionals across
the country who tirelessly workto help their customers. The
(24:40):
challenge, though, is that theyare stuck in a legacy system
that does not reward them fordoing so. Okay, so think about
this, the more effective you areat your job, right? The less
money you're going to make. Whowants to do that? Nobody. Nobody
wants to do that. So what? I'mtrying to do with my work here,
(25:02):
as far as the industry goes, isto shine a light on and say,
Listen, here is a path forwardto evolve so that you can
actually be rewarded for doingthe right things and helping
your customers and giving themwhat they need. Don't get
penalized for helping yourcustomers. Nobody wants to work
(25:24):
in that environment, especiallywith the younger generation.
They don't want that. They wanta mission. They are mission
driven people. If we look deepdown inside, we want a purpose
and we want a mission. So I justwant to put that caveat out
there. It
BEATE CHELETTE (25:35):
sounds like what you're saying is, if you came to
me and I have, let's say, 2030employees, and you're telling me
that you're saving me onaverage, 20, 30,000 $40,000 a
year on, and I'm getting betterbenefits. And when they have
babies and they're being bettertaken care of, why would I not
(25:55):
want to pay you an incentive forthat 100%
Donovan Pyle (25:59):
I mean, if any marketing company. If there are
any marketing companieslistening, and
BEATE CHELETTE (26:03):
you want to hello and you want to work on a
Hello, are you here? Yes. Areyou listening?
Donovan Pyle (26:09):
I will give you my email address, and let's
schedule a meeting right now. Ifyou want to work on a
performance basis, let's do it.
Let's go. I'm all ears. Andyeah, I mean, it's just That's
how powerful incentives are so,yes, I mean, but so here's the
thing I want to I want to goback to your previous comments
about the timing of when you canswitch benefits firms, when you
can switch from a broker to amanagement consulting firm.
(26:33):
Here's an analogy that kind ofdescribes the role, and that is
that you know your broker oryour management consulting firm.
They are your navigator on theship. They're the one pointing
the ship in a particulardirection and hopefully getting
you to where you want to go asan organization. They are not
the ship themselves. The shipthemselves is the health
(26:57):
insurance products, thepolicies, yada yada yada
underneath that, okay, so youcan change your navigator almost
any time without changing yourship. Okay. The only exception
to that rule that I would say isthat you don't want to change
your navigators right beforeyour renewal date, because, you
know, it's kind of there iscertainly an implementation
(27:19):
process. And to mix metaphors,you don't want to start
remodeling your kitchen theweekend before Thanksgiving.
Probably not a good idea, butyou don't. What you don't want
to do is wait till you know youget this 30% renewal increase
and then say, oh geez, we shouldprobably start looking for a
second opinion. That's going tobe a tough, tough time to tackle
that
BEATE CHELETTE (27:40):
problem. Thank you for that. And so for
somebody who now goes, I reallycannot do this by myself, why
don't I talk to Donovan? Wheredo we send them? Donovan? What
help do you have for
Donovan Pyle (27:49):
us? Sure, so you can go to fixinghealthcare.com
and we're building out a bunchof resources there. And, yeah,
just reach out and grab anexecutive summary of my book,
which is coming out tomid-November, and happy to have
a conversation.
BEATE CHELETTE (28:05):
And I really appreciate you coming on the
show and sharing some of thisinformation. Thanks so much.
Yeah, I'll be, you know, I thinkthis really good information.
This information does need to beout there, and I'll be more than
happy to help you in any way Ican, because this is, this is
not right. What's being done,
Donovan Pyle (28:22):
agreed, it's not only not right, it's not
sustainable either. So eitherwe're going to fix it through in
an orderly fashion, or we'regoing to have, you know, even
bigger political problems thanwe have today, 100%
BEATE CHELETTE (28:33):
thank you so much for being on the show, and
that is it for us for today.
Thank you, and thank youeverybody for listening. If you
like this show, please sharethis episode with somebody who
needs to hear what we talkedabout today, and I see you again
next time. And goodbye. That'sit for this episode of the
Business Growth Architect Show,Founders of the Future. If
you're done playing small andready to build the future on
(28:54):
your terms, subscribe, share andhelp us reach more Trailblazers
like you. And if you're seriousabout creating, growing and
scaling a business that'saligned with who you are,
schedule your uncovery sessionat uncoverysession.com lead with
vision. Move with purpose.
Create your future.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.