Beyond The Finish Line: How Chrissie Wellington Turned Imperfection Into Her Perfect Race

Episode Transcript
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Chrissy Wellington (00:07):
If all you ever think of yourself as is
Chrissy Wellington full-timeworld champion, then that's
suffocating but also limiting.
And so I think having thatpurpose helped me effectively
better transition.

Charlie Reading (00:22):
Today's guest is someone whose story should
stop you in your tracks.
Chrissy Wellington OBE is morethan just a four-time Iron Man
world champion.
She is an icon of endurance,resilience, and reinvention.
Undefeated across 13 Iron Manraces, Chrissy didn't even turn
professional until the age of30, which is quite astonishing,

(00:45):
making her one of the sport'smost extraordinary late
bloomers.
But in her journey frominternational development in
DePa to redefining the limits ofhuman endurance in Kona, it's
just anything but ordinary.
And it's why I wanted to getChrissy on the podcast right
from the day that we launchedit.
But finally we've managed tomake it happen.

(01:05):
So in this episode, she opensup about racing through pain,
about overcoming an eatingdisorder, finding purpose beyond
podiums, and why intuition,values, and imperfection have
been her greatest teachers.
If you're looking for realinsight in fitness, health,
work-life balance, or using yourplatform for good, Chrissy

(01:28):
brings it all.
So stay tuned for one of themost inspiring conversations
we've ever had on the businessof endurance and dive into this
amazing conversation withChrissy Wellington.
Do you know what?
When we look at the back end ofthis podcast, then we see
something really interesting.
We see that 57% of the peoplethat regularly listen to it

(01:50):
haven't hit the subscribebutton.
So could I ask you a quickfavor before we dive into
today's episode?
If you're enjoying Claire and Ibringing you amazing guests,
not asking you for patronagefees and not jamming the podcast
full of adverts, then the bestway you can help us continue to

(02:11):
do that and to make it evenbetter is to hit that subscribe
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And here's my promise to youwhen you subscribe, we'll make
it our mission, along with theteam that supports us, to
continue to improve this podcastevery week.
So thank you so much for yoursupport and for being a part of

(02:31):
the business of endurancecommunity.
Let's dive in.
So, Chrissy, welcome to theBusiness of Endurance podcast.
I've been looking forward tointerviewing you on the Business
of Endurance podcast rightsince the day we kicked this
thing off.
So it's fantastic to have youhere.
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
And I'd like to start, I alwayslike to start these episodes

(02:53):
with a story.
And for you, the story I'd loveto hear you kind of explain and
tell is that story of how youdescribed your last Kona.
Because your last Kona win, youobviously came into it after a
severe bike crash, but youdescribed it as your perfect
race because you overcameimperfections perfectly, which I

(03:15):
absolutely love.
So can you can you take us backto that race in Kona?
What happened leading up to it?
How did you find the strength?
What kind of journey did you goon throughout that day, both
mentally and physically?
And you know, what does thatmean to you?

Yeah, thanks for opening with that question,
Charlie.
I I think it touches on areally important aspect of
performance and and that'sresilience.
And that's what I guess I'mtrying to explain through, you
know, through my words of itbeing the perfect race, but
overcoming imperfectionsperfectly.
And it certainly wasn't theperfect race.

(03:49):
It wasn't the race Inecessarily would have scripted,
but it was the most beautiful,uplifting, and gratifying of
experiences and and reflectingback, I wouldn't have changed it
for the world.
So at that point, I was reallyfortunate to be three-time world
champion.
I'd missed the worldchampionships the year prior.

(04:11):
I'd been second in the lead upand made that really difficult
decision in collaboration withmy team not to race.
However, 2011 had had startedreally well, as is often the
case when you have adisappointment, you know, you
take time to wallow and then andthen you brush yourself off and
come back, you know, faster andstronger.

(04:32):
And I certainly was reallyfortunate to have to have done
that.
So I had a great race atChallenge Roth.
I was really happy with thelead up to the world
championships.
And then two weeks before therace itself, I was on a training
ride at a small group ride inBoulder in Colorado, where I was
training at the time.

(04:52):
And unbeknownst to me, I had akind of deflated rear tyre and
came off the bike and crashedand kind of severe, quite severe
road rash.
So kind of the superficial, butthen subsequently becomes quite
a deep injury and torn muscles,things like that.
So it wasn't really smallpreparation physically, and

(05:13):
certainly wasn'tpsychologically, and in those
circumstances, you you know, youwallow, but then you have to
face that adversity withpositivity.
So you have to you have toreframe, you have to be agile,
you have to react to thesituation as stands, you have to
break that that process downinto small, manageable steps and

(05:34):
focus on what you can controlyour mindset, your actions, your
environment to be conducive tooptimal performance under the
circumstances.
We traveled to Kona later thanplanned.
I knew that I wanted to startthe race, but really never
envisaged the outcome thatmaterialized.

So, how did that day materialise?
What describe us what happenedthroughout that day?

I mean, the lead up, like I said, is that
process of of micro steps,especially when you're you've
experienced a setback, you can'tlet yourself think too far
ahead.
So I was just taking each hour,each day, each hour as as it
came.
And so very much focusing onwhat I could control, like I

(06:18):
said.
So you can control yourmindset, you can have a really
positive reframing, you havethat power of recollection of
times when you've overcomeadversity in the past.
You can control your actions,your training, you know, the
plans, the preparations that youhave.
So I just very much focused onwhat I could control, of course,

(06:40):
leaning into my incrediblesupport team, which were really
the wind under my under mywings.
And so I went through eachstage of the process of as best
I could, you know, eatingbreakfast at the time that I
usually do, eating what Inormally normally ate, you know,
adapting somewhat my strategyto reflect the physical

(07:04):
situation I was in, like my swimstroke, I had to change
slightly.
But to all intents andpurposes, I approached the race
as I as I would have done anyother race.
However, there was a tremendouspsychological battle inside my
mind that really wasn't there inraces, races prior.

(07:26):
So I think that's where thetrue test was.
Yes, the physical test was madeeven more difficult, but it's
difficult anyway.
But it's that psychologicaltest, that that's that
self-doubt and that, you know,that fear of of pain and and and
discomfort.
So again, even in the raceitself, that process of

(07:47):
chunking, I talk about it a lot,I've talked about it a lot
already on this podcast.
We've only been going about 10minutes, but that process of
chunking, of breaking a kind ofmonumental endeavor down into
manageable steps is so importantbecause an Iron Man is
inconceivable.
It's inconceivable when you'rea professional athlete, a
professional athlete that's, youknow, maybe 80% physically

(08:11):
capable.
So it's that breaking a processdown into manageable steps that
I think got me through.

And what happened from a racing point of
view, describe for those peoplethat don't know what played out
that day, how did it allactually sort of work through?

I had a pretty diabolical swim.
The swim wasn't my strengthanyway, but you know, it was it
was one of my worst, if not theworst, swims I've ever had in an
Iron Man.
But my mindset was at least Igot out of the swim.
So I got through it.
Onto the bike.
You know, experience tells meit's a long day and you can
afford and should be incrediblypatient.

(08:48):
So whilst typically I'm quitean impatient person, when I'm
racing, I am prepared to playthat that long game.
So I didn't ride to power, so Iwas a very intuitive, still am
a very intuitive athlete.
So I had a strong sense of thepace that I could sustain over

(09:09):
the 180 kilometers and and verymuch rode to that.
I, as with all races, had highsand lows.
That's inevitable in Iron Manracing.
And so there were periods whereit was pretty uncomfortable,
you know, urinating on the bikeand having it trickle down your

(09:30):
legs and going into your cuts.
You know, probably not the mostpleasant of experiences.
But yeah, physically,psychologically, the race was a
roller coaster.
My biggest worry was, I think,was the run because of, you
know, the the load and the fearthat I just wouldn't be able to

(09:50):
sustain that level of of orendure that level of of
discomfort.
But I think I I kind of lentback into the experiences that
I've had previously, kind ofusing all the tools and the
strategies in your toolbox thatenable you to endure.
So there's very much a focus onon the process, but there's

(10:13):
also an ability to throw yourmind from the action you're
undertaking and put it somewherealtogether more pleasant.
And I've always had thatability to do that to both be
very present in the execution,but also to enable my mind to be
somewhere a little bit lesspainful.

(10:33):
And I I've never really beenable to articulate that.
And now saying it, I stilldon't feel that it makes much
sense.
But that process has alwaysbeen useful for me.
Having my team around me,having songs in my head that I
identify with landmarks on onthe race course.
So all of these different toolsand strategies that I used.

(10:54):
And slowly, I think I came offthe bike in sixth place.
So I'd moved up from I think 20something position to sixth off
the bike.
And so then I I I knew that ifyou know, if I could kind of
sustain the pace I was running,that there was a chance I could

(11:15):
be off on the podium.
And I always say thatconfidence is built in the
trenches of experience.
So that marathon was was anexperience, and my confidence
grew in the trenches of that.
So as the marathon progressedand I started to move up and

(11:36):
overtake people, I started togrow in in confidence.
As I neared the end and andwent into the lead, it was a
real battle.
That battle within myself, butthat battle with my competitors
that I'd always craved.
And I've never felt soannihilated as I did crossing

(11:57):
crossing the finish line thatday.
And that's why it was myperfect race.
Because I answered everyquestion that I'd ever asked of
myself.
I overcame every imperfectionas perfectly as I possibly
could.
And I think I proved to myselfthat I was worthy of being
called a champion.

Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it and it reminds me alittle bit of listening to you
talk about that.
Reminds me of when Mark Allendescribes his final win in Kona
and he was like, you know, 13minutes behind off the bike, and
he's like, but the one thing Ido have is the mental strategies
and strength.
I might not be as young as theperson I'm chasing down, but I I
I can I can I can I know I'vegot mental strategies that can

(12:39):
get me there.
And I know you say it's reallydifficult to sort of
contextualize what that is, butif I were to put you on the spot
and say, look, you know, you'reyou're coaching a younger
athlete now and you're trying toget them to that mental
resilience more quickly, whatwould be the the one advice, one
piece of advice you would givethem to try and kind of go
through that journey morequickly?

It needs to be done on the training ground.
It's too late in a race torealise that you haven't
utilized training to developyourself both psychologically
and physically.
So training is as much abouttraining the mind as it is
training your physiology, yourbody.

(13:20):
And so I think athletes of allcalibers at all levels should be
investing in developing thatpsychological strength.
And that means learning to testyour limits and step outside
your comfort zone in a safemanaged way in training, because
it's only then that you havethe confidence.

(13:42):
Like I said, that confidence isbuilt, or not innately
confident, but that confidencecan grow when you've tested
yourself in training, thatyou've shown you can do more
than you ever think possible.
And you put yourself insituations where the outcome is
uncertain.
That might mean you fail, butyou grow through that.

(14:04):
It might mean you succeed andyou grow through that too.
So I think growth is in thattesting of one's limits.
And that psychologicalstrength, I think, is
multifaceted.
So we need adversity tolerance.
So we need to know and be ableto overcome adversity.
So that means testing yourselfphysically, pushing your limits,

(14:27):
you know, above what you thinkis possible.
But then there's also,especially in Iron Man racing,
there's solitude tolerance,which is really important.
You have to be able to be inyour own head for an extended
period of time.
And so all athletes, whilstthere's definite value in
training with others, there'salso incredible value of
training on by yourself becauseyou learn the art of solitude

(14:50):
tolerance.
And I think often amateurathletes understandably spend a
lot of time training with otherpeople, which is beautiful.
But in a race, you haven't gotthat camaraderie, you haven't
got that shared motivation andsupport.
So you've got to be able to bein your own head for extended
periods of time, be withoutmusic, be without stimulation.

(15:11):
So solitude tolerance, thetraining of to endure that
border is really, reallyimportant.
And so that that again is partof training.
Motivation, incrediblyimportant.
You've got to know what yourintrinsic and extrinsic
motivators are.
There'll be those that arewithin those that are external
and knowing what they are andholding those close are again

(15:34):
really important.
But all of that reflection, allof that processing has to be
done as part of training.
And that's that's so beautiful.
That's what's amazing about oursport.
It's as much psychological asit is physical, and that's why
it amazes me that people placeso much value on their training

(15:55):
log, their swim bike run, maybestrength and conditioning, and
that is it.
But it all unravels if thatdoesn't encompass that that
psychological strength, becausethat's such an important pillar.

Claire Fudge (16:07):
I think it's really interesting what you I
mean, absolutely, in terms ofspending time on your own in
that solitude, we've a number ofguests that we've we've
interviewed have you know goneinto quite a bit of depth in
that area, and I think it's it'sreally interesting.
Whilst you were speaking there,I was thinking of the
generation that are coming upthat may have spent some
solitude in COVID times on theirown.
But what do you think from theyounger generation, maybe, of

(16:29):
athletes coming into the sportwho maybe, I mean, what you
know, what are your thoughts?
Do you think the youngergeneration are more concerned
with making mistakes and puttingthemselves out there in terms
of learning from mistakes?
And also that solitude of beingon their own because there is
so much social media now, isn'tthere, and connected to people
the whole time.
I don't know what your thoughtsare on that in terms of the

(16:51):
next generation maybe comingthrough.

I think there are two parts to that.
There's a risk aversion, Ithink, whether that's
generational.
I certainly think that hand inhand with the growth of social
media and the fact thateveryone, regardless of who they
are, has a public profile and apublic persona, means that your
head is permanently above theparapet.

(17:15):
So I think that no longer canyou make a mistake and be
incognito or anonymous.
So I think people feel veryexposed and very visible due to
the fact that they're livingtheir lives in a public space.
So I think that means thatyou're less likely to want to

(17:38):
take risks and be much moresecure in your comfort zone
because of that, that fear ofjudgment from others.
And then obviously linked tothat, but but separate, that
interconnectedness, whilstbeautiful, is a double-edged
sword, isn't it?
As you've quite rightly said, Ithink there's a tendency

(18:00):
towards wanting a silver bullet,wanting a quick win, wanting an
easy fix, and also needing tobe constantly stimulated in in
every in every sense.
So whether that's through musicor visually through videos or
through connection with otherpeople, all of those different

(18:21):
types of stimulation, I thinkwe're increasingly conditioned
to need.
And my hope, including as aparent, is that we try to carve
out space for ourselves tolisten to what we need and want,
listen to our intuition, listento our gut instinct, and be
comfortable, you know, in ourown company.

(18:43):
I think that's that'stremendously important.
But also as a parent,encouraging our daughter to test
herself and to be celebratoryof her trying, failing, making
mistakes.
And if we if we think about theexample, the phenomenal example
of Lucy Charles, Lucy CharlesBarclay coming back from the

(19:06):
disappointment of Kono, itdemonstrates that resilience
that comes from failure anddisappointment and adversity.
And that's a really great, verytopical contemporary example,
but one that we can all leaninto, I think, that shows that
you've got to put yourself outthere.
You might not always get whatyou want, you might not always

(19:29):
achieve your goal, but that's aspringboard to success.

Absolutely.
And I think you know, you youand you know, many other
athletes sharing these storiesof not just resilience, but
putting yourself out there andbe willing to fail to succeed
almost as well.
I just want to jump back toKona.
And I was wondering, like, outof your wins in Kona, which do
you think was the most memorablewin?

(19:54):
And why?

Every race I've made memories, phenomenal
memories.
And each one is so special tome for different reasons.
I think I bookended my careerwith two phenomenal
performances, not in terms of ofthe titles, but in terms of
what I learned and what whatthey gifted me.
You know, the first one giftedme an awareness that I could

(20:19):
achieve so much more than Icould ever have imagined.
It gave me a platform thatmeant so much and really changed
changed my life forever.
And the last race, too, enabledme to divide limits of of what
was possible and almostcompleted me.
But the three races in between,and I say three because the one

(20:42):
that I didn't race is alsoimportant for different reasons.
But 2008 was incrediblyimportant.
It was an opportunity wheremyself and Rebecca Keat were
able to demonstratesportsmanship in in a way that I
think just encapsulates allthat's beautiful about the
sport.
I had a flat tire, long storyvery short, but I had a flat

(21:05):
tire.
A fellow racer gave me a CO2cartridge.
Using that, I was able to getback on the road and was able to
reclaim the lead and win winthe race.
So for me, that that's anincredibly special moment, not
just for myself and and Rebecca,but also for for the sport and
encapsulating all that's sobeautiful.

(21:27):
The making of memories is well,I did the sport, and and each
one of those races is is soincredibly special.

I was going to ask you about that moment with
with Rebecca Keaton handing youthe CO2 cartridge because it's
an amazing moment.
How do you think thatexperience shaped your view to
rivalry within sport?
I mean, I love the triathloncommunity because it's it is
such an amazing community.
But how did how did that momentshape your approach to the

(21:57):
sport and your competitors?

I think rivalry is is manufactured
somewhat by by the media.
I think competitiveness isinnate in competitive sport.
I think that goes withoutsaying.
So we are competitors, but weare also many of us friends.
You know, the Latin root ofcompetitor is strive together,
and I believe that's what we do.

(22:20):
We strive together and weelevate each other.
And I was a better athletebecause of them.
But I think different athleteswould have approached
competitiveness in in differentways.
And it's Rebecca's selflessnessthat really struck a chord with
me and should strike a chordwith with others listening to

(22:40):
this story.
The fact that she was awarethat in giving me the CO2
cartridge, that that could be,you know, the stick that I used
to beat her and everyone elsewith.
And she was willing to do that.
And and that's that'sabsolutely incredible.
And and like I said, and andyou've said, it epitomizes the
sport where we're competitors,but you also want to win with

(23:05):
integrity.
Want to you want yourcompetitors to be able to be
performing at their very best.
So yeah, I I'm still indebtedto Rebecca, but I also think
that it it tells a bigger storythan just she and I and and
speaks to the camaraderie thatexists in our sport.

What do you I think that the camaraderie is
just amazing still, I think, inthe in the triathlon community.
With regards to your the waythat you trained, the way that
you competed, when you know, welooked from the outside in, you
really were pushing to the, youknow, to the limits, pushing to
the edge.

(23:44):
What did that look like for youin your training, your, you
know, your racing competing, butalso in life as well, in terms
of pushing those limits, pushingthe edge?

I don't know whether I was pushing the
envelope any any more or anyless than than anyone else.
I wasn't hampered by anypreconceived knowledge or ideas,
so I came into the sport verygreen and so was very much open

(24:17):
to experimentation andexploration of those limits.
Would I say I was a masochist?
I like to push myself.
I like to hurt in a in amanaged way, want as all
athletes do, want to know thatwe've fulfilled our potential.
But that has to be donestrategically and deliberately.

(24:42):
So it's not just a process ofkind of self-flagellation where
you're annihilating yourselfduring every session.
It's much more sophisticated,I'm sure you know, than that.
So it's a combination ofsessions, but when I go hard, I
I I go I go hard.
But when I need to go easy, Igo hard at being easy.

(25:04):
Does that make sense?
You have to, as a as anathlete, be purposeful in your
training and know when to goeasy and know when to go hard.
And both are incredibly,incredibly important.
When I was racing, I think wewere blessed in not having the
public profile necessarily thatpeople do today.

(25:26):
So so I wasn't aware of otherpeople's training, and other
people weren't necessarily awareof mine aside from the people
that I trained with.
However, I do know that I was avery low volume athlete
relative to many of the athletesthat I that I trained with.
So I would do perhaps 30 hoursof training a week, and every

(25:53):
single session was purposeful.
So there was no junk in there.
But for me, training was 24-7.
It's not just about swim, bike,and run, it's your strength
work, your mobility work, it'sphysio, it's massage, it's your
nutrition, it's your rest,recovery, sleep, etc., etc.
So you need to invest in all ofthose.

(26:17):
And I think I expect I had highstandards for myself, and I was
very much focused on thatholistic approach to training as
much, you know.
So focusing on all the otherpillars as much as I did.

Brilliant.
And I think I wonder whetherthat's a a segue into my next
topic.
I'm not sure that the the sortof masochism side of it, I
wonder is whether that's relatedto where I'm going next, which
is in your first book, which bythe way is an absolutely
brilliant book.
I read it right at the start ofmy triathlon journey, and it
was it was like hugely, hugelyimpactful for me.

(26:51):
But I remember reading in thatthat you had an eating disorder
as as a as a youngster, andactually, I think you still had
it as you came into triathlon,if my memory serves me
correctly.
And it's a topic that's veryclose to my heart, but it's also
a a topic that Claire helps alot of people with in her
nutritional world.
And so I wonder how didendurance sport help you because

(27:16):
uh my understanding of eatingdistortion is it often it can
lead to an exercise addiction inalmost instead of or in
addition to.
So, how did endurance sporthelp you deal with that, do you
think?

Yeah, just maybe to just give some give
some context to to those thataren't aware of my story.
Yeah, as a young person in myteenage years, as a young adult
too, I had an eating disorder,anorexia and bulimia.
I just really had a verydisordered approach to food.
For me, the the body wasaesthetic.

(27:49):
I judged myself very criticallyrelative to others.
At that time, sport was notreally part of my life, and the
control that I wanted to exertover myself and and my body, I
did through restricting what Iate.
And it was when I was doing myMA that I, inspired by a friend,

(28:13):
started running.
And there was the realization,slow realization, both through
educating myself and speaking toothers, that if I was going to
enjoy running most importantly,or fulfill my potential at
running secondary, I needed tofuel both for health and for

(28:34):
performance.
And so that coupled with theimpact that I knew it was having
on those I loved the most,enabled me to have a much
healthier approach to food.
But as you quite rightly said,it came at a time when the the
amount of sport that I was doingat that time running was was

(28:57):
increasing.
And so I think you're quiteright in saying that the kind of
psychological attributes that Ihad that manifested an eating
disorder were then channeled,exhibited through sport.
But reframing, sport did giveme the channel through which to
address a very disorderedapproach to food.

(29:19):
It enabled me to have a betterrelationship with food, to see
it as something positive.
That's continued to this day,but the relationship hasn't
always been an easy one.
It ebbs and flows depending onthe context.
It's something that I stillfind challenging and have

(29:40):
developed strategies to dealwith.
At times, I don't want to well,suffered from red S, so
relative energy deficiency insport, basically where you're
not eating enough or thenutritional or food with the
nutritional value necessary tosustain the activities that.
That you're doing and tosustain normal bodily function

(30:03):
sometimes.
So that manifested for me indisturbed sleep, hormonal
dysfunction, amenorrhea, inother words, irregular or no
periods.
So it had a multitude of shortand longer term impacts.
And so I think the thedisordered eating behaviour is a

(30:26):
manifestation of my desire forcontrol.
Like I said, it's somethingthat I have to I have to still
deal with.
And I'm 48 now, but also beinga parent for me has been a
revelation.
Like it's just enabled me tohave a much better, much

(30:47):
healthier relationship with mybody, with food, particularly
due to the kind of role modelingaspect of parenting.
So it's it's a journey, it'sbeen a journey.
And I think it's important thatathletes like me are honest.
And there's a lot of shame andembarrassment attached to
talking about this type ofthing.

(31:09):
But I unless we do, I don'tthink others in similar
situations will have theconfidence to reach out for help
and that support and that helpis out there.

Well, you know, I I I thank you for being as
honest as you know, that'sthat's a very honest and uh and
heartfelt answer.
And you know, I I thank you forsharing that.
Is there any advice that you ifthere's a lot young person
listening to this that I meanwe've you know we've talked
about Red S quite a lot on thepodcast, is there any advice
that you would give a youngperson that's strove struggling
either with an eating disorderor sort of self-esteem or body

(31:43):
image issues?
You know, what what advicewould you give them?

First and foremost, speak to someone.
Very important.
Speak to someone you trust.
There's a wealth of resourcesout there now.
Project Red S is a phenomenalsite that I would signpost
people to.
So definitely speak to someoneyou trust, access the resources
that are available, not just youas the person with Red S, but

(32:09):
also encourage those that arearound you to access those
resources to seek support ifnecessary in challenging the
underlying perception ofyourself as inadequate and your
body as inadequate.
Because I think that's a lot ofwhere it stems from, that that

(32:32):
feeling of of inadequacy.
And what I've come to realizeis my body is so much more than
its aesthetic appearance, youknow, it's it's the external,
but it's also the internal.
And it's enabled me to do someabsolutely phenomenal things.
And if we think back to what Isaid about, you know, the

(32:56):
perfection and imperfection, Ithink the same can apply to our
bodies.
Like our bodies might not beperfect, but they're absolute,
but they're absolutely perfectin every way.
And so I think it's trying toreframe the perspective of
ourself so that it's a lot morepositive, but often that's hard
to do alone.
So again, it it's reaching outto support in enabling you to

(33:20):
understand the the causes andthose and look at the root of
those underlying perceptions.
But I think it's also importantto say that Red S is not always
a deliberate act linked todisordered eating.
Sometimes it's a lack ofawareness about when we need to
eat, how much we need to eat,what the nutritional density

(33:42):
needs to be.
So it's it's not always linkedto disordered eating.
And that's important to say.
I think some athletes they theystart training and they simply
do not know what they need toeat and and when.
And that creates adisequilibrium between their
intake and their energyexpenditure.
And so I think an awarenessabout that is important too.

And thank you for being so open and honest, as
Charlie said to, you know, justlistening to your your kind of
journey from where you were towhere you are now and and
managing things still.
So working with eatingdisorders and disordered eating
reds in in sports, what do yousee as, you know, when you were
competing in sport, what did yousee as one of the biggest

(34:24):
mistakes, maybe that maybeparticularly the girls that you
were around a lot, but the men,the males and females making
when it came to nutrition.
So did you see a lot ofdisordered eating, or was there
just a lot of underfueling thekind of eating less makes you
faster?
You know, lighter is faster,lighter is better.
Like what did you see?

I didn't see as much of that in in
triathlon.
It's a very different sport toa sport like running, where I
think you hear that messaging alot more.
I certainly knew that lighterwas not faster, especially when
it came to swimming, because mystrength and my buoyancy changed
in the water.
I think two mistakes.

(35:04):
I'll I'll speak to myself.
I don't want to speak to othersor or be more general in my
comments.
I'll I'll speak to myself.
So the first is the lack ofawareness about the amount of
carbohydrates that I needed tobe ingesting.
And I think science haschanged, and there's an
awareness now that we need to betaking on board a lot more

(35:27):
carbohydrates in training andracing than we may have thought
10, 15 years ago.
So when I was I was racing, Iwould ingest about 60 grams of
carbs an hour.
Now athletes are definitelyexpecting to ingest, you know,
80, 90 grams.

(35:48):
Depending, obviously, there'sso many different variables.
So again, we can't generalize,but for me, I if I was racing
now, I would probably look toincrease that to you'll know
better than Claire, but youknow, 80, 80, 90 grams.
And and that's that'strainable, and that needs to be
done in training so that it'stolerable on racing.

(36:09):
So I think number one, I was Iwasn't ingesting enough
carbohydrates.
And secondly, I think is thephilosophy is that short-term
approach.
It's almost sacrificing healthat the altar of performance.
So as an athlete, I had ashort-term approach.
And so I wasn't looking farenough down the road sometimes,

(36:35):
of the implications of myactions, not just for
performance, but for long-termhealth.
Something I'm incrediblyconscious of now as you know, as
I'm nearing 50.
So, what are the implicationsof my lifestyle 20 years ago for

(36:55):
hormonal health, for bonedensity, for body mass, you
know, all brain health, all ofthose things.
They're just so important.
But I think when you're in youryour 20s, you're not thinking
about brain health.
And you might not even bethinking about conception and
fertility and things like that.
So I think shifting that,shifting the approach from short

(37:17):
term to factoring in that thatlonger term, the longer term
impact of our actions is isreally, really important.

And I I think definitely, you know, helping
people understand, you know,from a nutrition perspective,
actually what their body needs.
And like you say, actually theeducation about it's not just
the here and now, it's actuallywhat happens, you know, later on
in life as well.
So it's it's really good tohear you talking about that,
that, you know, that wholespectrum.
I've heard you talk, you know,before and and written about

(37:46):
purpose.
And you've said or mentionedbefore that that your purpose is
to drive a positive change.
Since you've stepped away fromyour life in professional sport,
how how has purpose changed foryou?
And and how has it changed inthe work that you do today, such
as park runs and and the otherthings that you're doing?

I don't think my purpose has changed.
I think that's the point ofpurpose, but I think you have
different goals attached tothat, under underpinning that.
So I've always been driven bythat purpose to kind of empower,
energize, energize, and elevateothers.
And I've just been reallyfortunate to have had many

(38:28):
different channels through whichto live that purpose, whether
it's through sport, whether it'sthrough international
development, whether it'sthrough parenting, or whether
it's through my careersubsequent to sport, including
at Park Run.
So I think the the anchor orthe North Star or the compass
has not changed.
I think that the channelthrough which I can achieve that

(38:52):
has.
But certainly on retiring fromprofessional sport, you question
your purpose.
You question so much, youquestion your identity and your
goal and your structure.
And it's a verydiscombobulating time.
And I think holding tight tothat ambition or that life
mission is really, reallyimportant.

(39:14):
So knowing who you are, whatyou're about, what excites you,
what your contribution is beyondthe world of sport, beyond the
moniker of world champion isreally, really important.
Because if all you ever thinkof yourself as is Chrissy
Wellington, full-time worldchampion, then that's
suffocating but also limiting.

(39:35):
And so I think having thatpurpose helped me effectively
better transition to a lifeoutside of sport.

Brilliant.
And I think for from what wecan see, you you have achieved
that in what you're doing andthe message you're sharing, and
you know, being nominated forfemale sports person of the
century and and all of this sortof amazing stuff.
Uh so I think I think you'veachieved it.
One of the things I've heardyou talk about on this on this
subject on another podcast thatI was listening to as part of my

(40:06):
research was how you've have orsometimes should have used your
own values to make decisions.
So talk to me a little bitabout how you've reflected back
on decisions that maybe youdidn't make in line with your
values.
And maybe you give us anexample of one time that it
didn't, you didn't make adecision based on your own

(40:27):
values, and another time whereyou did, and that that that
proved to be more successful.

I believe really strongly in the power of
intuition and gut instinct.
So I think we have anincredible compass inside us
that tells us what's right orwrong.
Sometimes we drown it out andwe don't listen to it.
And I think some of themistakes that I've made in my
life are when I haven't listenedto that internal compass or

(40:54):
haven't done something that's,like you said, aligned with my
values.
There have been several.
The I guess one I'll lean intois connected to my
autobiography.
So when I was when we werepublishing my autobiography, the
publisher wanted someone towrite a forward, someone high
profile, because obviously thatwould help with book sales.

(41:17):
I was put in touch with LanceArmstrong, who had dabbled in in
triathlon.
And in communicating with himdirectly, he was open to writing
the forward to my book.
Now, at that time, nothing hadbeen proven with regards to his
use of performance enhancingdrugs through his cycling

(41:40):
career, throughout his cyclingcareer.
However, you'd be naive tothink that he'd performed clean.
And I certainly knew that therewere red, many red flags and
there were question marks in mymind about his integrity.
Um, I didn't listen to myintuition, I didn't listen to my

(42:01):
gut instinct, and I was swayedby the needs of the publisher
and the desire to have ahigh-profile person writing the
forward that I accepted hisoffer and we published the book.
And then, as everyone knows,subsequently it was proven that
he'd taken performance-enhancingdrugs.

(42:22):
And I felt that that broughtinto question a lack of
credibility on my part byassociation, that people would
then call into question myintegrity because I had been
associated with him.
And in hindsight, it was it wasa mistake.
I should have listened to myintuition and I and I didn't.

(42:44):
And it was, it was, it was alesson to me.
But you know, you can't changewhat's happened.
But I know that going forward,I need to take accountability,
to be responsible for thosedecisions and make them my
decision.

Is there an example of of the flip side of
this where you have used yourintuition and your values to
make a decision that now thatyou look back on you go, that
was absolutely the rightdecision because of my
intuition?

Um becoming a professional athlete, moving
to, you know, moving to Nepal,you know, even like micro
decisions that that you make,you know, each and every day are
guided by gut instinct aboutthis is right or this is wrong.
And so yeah, I think I've Imean, even as even in sport, I

(43:32):
was a very intuitive athlete.
I listened to myself.
I had a very deep understandingof of myself and and my body.
So that so I didn't necessarilylean into technology to tell me
what I already intuitivelyknew.
Sometimes it's you know, it'sit's great to kind of
cross-check, but yeah, as anathlete, I was very, very

(43:54):
intuitive.

I know Nepal was a was a big life moment for
you.
Why, why was it such a pivotalmoment?

Because I stepped outside of my comfort
zone.
I was exposed to abject, abjectpoverty and deprivation
juxtaposed against phenomenalbeauty, beauty of landscape,
beauty of people, beauty ofcommunity.
And it enabled me to exploreand and develop physical and

(44:24):
psychological strengths that Inever knew that I had, you know,
in some of the kind of bikerides and things that that we
went on.
But just as importantly, itshowed me that power of
collaboration, true developmentreally means that coming
together of a group of diversepeople, that culture of

(44:45):
meritocracy where no ideas areoff the table, where the
Westerner needs to listen andrespond to the needs and wants
of the local community ratherthan imposing a solution and
then together co-creating thatsolution to a problem that
they've identified.
So it made me think about a lotmore deeply about community,

(45:08):
about collaboration and aboutdevelopment as a practice.

I was thinking how that might have also your
experience now challenging,challenged, channelled into the
community of things like Parkrunas an example, but but also
your that relationship that youhave and trust that you have in
a coach as well, being able tolisten, understand, be part of a
group.
You you've trained under two ofthe most, I guess, iconic

(45:34):
coaches.
What do you think that each ofthem brought to your your own
development into your sport?
And how did that kind of Iguess shape your evolution in in
your sport as an athlete?

Yeah, I've been really fortunate through my
life to have many coaches fromthe swimming coaches as a as a
youngster, Frank Horwell, whowas my running coach, phenomenal
man in Battersea and in London.
And then, like you said, thetwo coaches I had as a
professional athlete, I had awonderful support team, and and
my coaches were a reallyimportant part of that.

(46:07):
However, like you said, thatthe two coaches I had, Brett
Sutton and Dave Scott, were twovery, very different people,
different personalities,different coaching styles,
different philosophies.
And to contextualize it, I cameto Brett as a a new
professional athlete, very newto the sport, very naive, and

(46:30):
stayed with him for two yearsand then went to Dave for the
last two years of of my career.
Brett is a very was, is a veryauthoritarian character, very
top-down, very imposing,dogmatic, trolling.
So he took control of everyaspect of of training and and

(46:51):
made sure that my team was asnarrow as it possibly could be.
In retrospect, he was quitedivisive.
You know, he used to encouragefriction between athletes very
deliberately.
It wasn't a very consultativeapproach and it was not

(47:11):
incredibly it wasn't empowering.
I succeeded under him.
However, in my mind, it wasn'tsustainable and it and it wasn't
healthy.
And that's why after two yearsI knew that I needed to sever
the relationship and moved toBoulder, Colorado, and was
coached, like I said, by Dave,who had an altogether different

(47:34):
style.
It was very reciprocal, quiteconsultative.
We were friends first andforemost.
He was expansive in hisapproach to team.
So I had a different strengthand conditioning coach.
I had input from anutritionist.
I was able to have many of myown sponsors, whereas Brett had
challenged my decisions in thatarea.

(47:57):
So it was it was altogether avery, very different
relationship.
I mean, I've had an email fromDave two days ago.
So he and I are still veryclose friends.
We might not always agree onevery aspect of training, but it
was it was a relationshipgrounded in trust and in respect
and in support.

(48:19):
And feel really fortunate tohave been coached by him.
And yeah, I think it alsodemonstrates that there are many
different coaching styles.
And again, it's aboutunderstanding yourself, your
goals, your approach, yourneeds, and then matching those
to that of the coach.
And then if it if it doesn'twork, either immediately or over

(48:41):
time, then not being prepared,then not being afraid to to
sever that relationship and andand to evolve and step away.
I think that's that's reallyimportant as well.

Brilliant.
I I I think it's um I thinkit's fascinating, isn't it?
Because I I remember readingyour interpretation of of the
Brett Sutton coaching.
And there's still things that Ikind of stick in my brain, like
one of the guys I swim withalways has a bottle of water on
the side of the pool, and all Ithink of is Brett saying, You
can't swim in a race, you can'tdrink in a race, can you?

No, but that that's exactly what he said.
I don't know if you read thatin my autobiography, or someone
else has said that.

Yeah, yeah, no, it was yours.

The first day I arrived, we were training
out in Thailand.
I arrived, typical Brett, Iarrived in the middle of the
night and I got a taxi fromPaquet Airport to where we were
staying.
No one had been told that I wasarriving, not least the person
I was sharing a room with.
So I turn up, I I sleep on thefloor in the room, and then wake

(49:41):
up in the morning.
She has an argument with Brettbecause she obviously didn't
know that I was coming.
We all go to the pool, and thenthe first thing I hear is, you
don't need to drink, you don'tdrink in a race, and this water
bottle getting launched overover this wall, and I'm just

(50:02):
shell-shocked, you know, andthis is me as a as a as a new
athlete coming into thisenvironment.
I'm glad you said it, it's myyour interpretation because it
is, and other people will havedifferent perspectives, and I
respect that.
So this is very much myinterpretation and my
recollection and my experience.

(50:23):
But there were things thathappened that were, you know,
not up for debate.
And and yeah, it it was anapproach that worked for a while
but wasn't.

Yeah, I mean, it it's interesting.
I mean, it obviously got you tobeing world champion, which is
amazing, but interesting to hearthat you say that it wasn't
sustainable.
Now, as we come to the end ofthis interview, we always ask
our guests or talk to our guestsabout books.
Um, now you've you've writtentwo amazing books from from a
triathlon point of view, butyou've also written two
brilliant books from from forthe next generation, which I

(50:59):
love.
I think that's I think that'sfantastic, and we're and we're
gonna run out of time to talkabout them much.
But I would love to know whatbooks or if not books, other
sort of resources.
I have a feeling I know whatyour answer to this question is
gonna be, but we'll see where itgoes.
What books or other resourceshave helped you on your journey
or do you find yourselfrecommending to other people?

The first is a poem gave to me, and it's a
poem called If by RajardKipling.
Slightly misogynist becauseit's about you know a son
becoming a man, and it's asapplicable to, you know, a girl
becoming a woman, or that aside,to me, just it encapsulates
what it means to live your verybest life, a life where you

(51:42):
fulfil your potential, but alife in service to others.
And that's a poem Brett gaveme, along with a book called Art
of War.
But the poem I and the bookactually, but I have I still
have both, but the poem I carryaround everywhere, and I used to
write it on my water bottlesbefore a race, and it was quite
meditative, and and that becamelike you know, a routine for me

(52:06):
before, you know, before everyrace.
And I used to give one of thosewater bottles to a child if I
could find one before the beforethe race starts.
So that was that poem's reallyum to me.
So I think if I were to pickone, it would be that.

Brilliant, brilliant.
I had a feeling that that mightbe the one.
It's a brilliant, brilliantrecommendation.
And then finally, we always getthe last guest to ask the next
guest a question without knowingthat it was going to be.
And our last guest was RyanSands, the ultrarunner.
So I think Claire has Ryan'squestion for you.
And this is gonna be aninteresting question, I think.

But these conversations are meant to be
fun, aren't they?
Yeah, it's not a test, wepromise you.
Okay, so Ryan asked, if you hadto write your own obituary,
what would you want it to sayand why?
Can I plunder the words of myfather?

Of course.
Uh when he dropped me off on myfirst day at university, he
said, Chrissy, seize everyopportunity and make a mark on
the world for all the rightreasons.
So it would be she seized everyopportunity and she made a mark
on the world for all the rightreasons.

Absolutely brilliant.
Brilliant.
And I thought I don't thinkthere's any doubt that that is
uh absolutely true.

So deep sense of relief now that I've
I've had this.
Great question, isn't it?
And and I think it is importantto to reflect on what you want
your your impact to have been,your impact on the world and the
impact on on those around you.
And and I do think about that alot.
And it is what it is thatcompass for me to make sure that

(53:41):
that we talked about I'm makingthe best decisions I possibly
can.

Brilliant.
Chrissy, it I want to say ahuge thank you for for not just
coming on the podcast, for yourhonesty, for your inspiration,
for that right right from thestart of my triathlon journey,
it's been a it's been a hugething for me.
So thank you so much for comingon.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
And yeah, we wish wish youevery success with whatever
comes next.

Thank you so much.
Thanks for taking me downthere.
I always love reflecting onwhat has been, but also thinking
about what is still to come.
Thank you.

Thank you.
So, what did you make of theinterview with Chrissy?

Amazing.
I mean, we have been wantingChrissy to come on the podcast
for such a long time, beeninviting behind the scenes, have
you for a long time.
It was amazing.
And do you know it was amazingbecause we have so many
different guests, and she was aguest who is a little bit of a
throwback to the past.
And it's so great to hear herstory told in her own in her own

(54:41):
way again.
So it was fascinating.
It was a fascinating journeyfrom kind of where she was when
she was racing through to kindof where she is now.
And I think extreme, like wewere saying, you know, at the
end of end of that thatinterview, like she's so
authentic.

Yeah, I I agree.
I think she was her honesty wasbrilliant.
I mean, she actually saidafterwards she shared some stuff
that I don't know that she'sever really shared.
And I thought it was brilliant.
And there was so much wisdom inthere.
I wrote like so many notes.
You know, within the first fewminutes, we were talking about
controlling the controllablesand chunking it down, and you're
like, there's so many brilliantlessons here, regardless of

(55:16):
triathlon.
You know, that those thingsjust in itself are just so
brilliant.
And stepping outside yourcomfort zone, and we sort of
came back to that a few times.
Just so much brilliant stuff inthere.
What what what did you takefrom the the conversation?

You know, I think I mean she talked obviously a
lot about resilience, didn'tshe?
Because where where we startedin that conversation was around
her uh 2000, was it 2000?
I can't even remember whichwhich race it was that she won't
be.

Her final, her final conversation.

Final her final race.
And I think that what reallycame across is her how she got
through not only her racing buther training.
And she she taught, which someof the again, you know, we've
heard guests talk about, isbeing able to come
compartmentalize like what she'sdoing at that moment, whether
it's the pain of getting throughthe training pain or the racing

(56:03):
pain, or in this instance,actually real, you know, real
pain before the race evenstarted, and being able to sit
it somewhere else.
That is a skill to be able todo that.
And it also came back aroundwhen we were talking about, you
know, what does an athlete needto learn?
It's not just about thetraining, of course they need
nutrition, of course they do.
But it's not just about thetraining, you know, it's about

(56:24):
learning to be with yourself,learning about the silence,
which you know I'm a big fan of,like actually train with other
people, but learn to like bewith yourself and train
yourself.
And I think that's a reallyinteresting concept for that
younger generation coming up.
Like, do they have the capacityto be able to do it now, or
would they have to really learnto be able to do that?

Like, like she described racing without power
and racing purely on feel, youknow, that that again is a great
lesson to learn.
And I think, yeah, I thinkyou're right.
I think there's there's there'sso much in that.
And and I loved the way shedescribed that growth is through
testing your limits.
You only really know, you know,only really get growth when
you're sort of pushing to theabsolute limits, to the edges of

(57:05):
the boxes as you described,which I think I think that's
brilliant, you know, and andpushing essentially to the point
of failure.
You only know how far you cango when you get to the point of
failure, don't you?

And that's the course where you where you learn
as well.
Yeah, you know, and she waswilling to put herself in that
position and look where it gother, you know, actually being
willing to put herself outthere.

And we didn't get a chance to ask her.
Um, I'd hoped she, but we weran out of time before she'd had
to go and do the school run.
Like, if you think about Konathis year for the ladies, you
know, you had Lucy pushing tothe absolute limit, and you had
Taylor pushing to the absolutelimit.
And it's actually a really fineline between pushing to the
limit and not having then thethe enough in the tank to get to

(57:49):
the finish line, and also, butthen you know, not pushing to
the limit and not having achance of winning the race in
the first place.
So it's a really fine line toget get that right.
And Chrissy was obviously amaster at doing that.

And that is professional sport, you know,
working in professional sport,you know, I always talk about
you're walking a tightropebetween falling off the edge of
not being at your peak andfalling off your edge with
pushing yourself too hard.
And that is the game ofprofessional sport, isn't it?
Is that that ultimate line?
And I can imagine, I haven'tread her children's books, but
I'd I'd actually love to fromfrom just the the you know the

(58:24):
detail about it, what's writtenabout them.
I can imagine that in thosebooks.
Have you read them?

No, I haven't actually.
Uh because they they came outwhen my girls were probably too
old for me to be introducingthem to that.

They look like such lovely books built on, you
know, talking about resilienceand obviously in a in a
childlike way.
So I'm gonna I'm actually gonnaget them.
I think they'd be amazing toread.
Like some yeah, teachingchildren how to do that.

I I th I think I think that's right.
I think I should do the sameactually.
And I think I think what was Ithought was amazing was how
honest and authentic she waswhen she was talking about
eating disorders.
Because I think she I mean, Ihave to admit, I I because she
talks about it in a book, but itonly really is a thing in the
lead up to her becoming aprofessional triathlete and how

(59:11):
honest she was about how it'salways still a challenge going
going through.
I mean, what would you youobviously you talk to lots of
people currently battling an eateating disorder?
What what did you take on onthat part of the conversation?

I think that you know, her honesty around this is
her being able to talk about itis also the acceptance of what
it is and how she's able tomanage it.
And I think that's you knowwhat she said at the end of
actually peaks and troughs, shedidn't use those words, but you
know, sometimes it's worse thanothers, and even now she still
experiences it.
And it's about her being ableto manage that.
So I I think she was veryhonest in actually is this good

(59:47):
for the sport for me to betalking about it?
And actually, I think it's afantastic thing because for
other athletes to be able to seethat she has been able to
manage an eating disorder andput herself in a position.
Where she's been well enough tonot only race but be able to
compete and win at a really highlevel and be able to, you know,

(01:00:08):
have a family.
And talking now about actuallyit's really important about the
longevity of not only yoursport, but the longevity in
terms of your, you know, yourlifespan, your bone health, your
brain health.
So I I think she really haskind of put herself out there
to, you know, maybe this is hernext area of helping people
change and helping peoplesucceed as well.

Charlie Reading (01:00:28):
Yeah, I mean, I th I think it's it's obviously
still way more of a problem insport than than I think I
realize realised.
I think, you know, I know we'vetalked about Red F on on the
podcast a number of times, bothin female athletes and in male
athletes.
And I, you know, I see the helpthat Bromin's getting, for
example, with her cycling andhow they're trying to keep her

(01:00:50):
away from ever having thatproblem.
Is it it must be a what morewide?
I know when we were chatting toChrissy briefly after we
stopped recording, there waspeople that have been contacting
her about this subject.
How big a problem is it insport, do you think?

Claire Fudge (01:01:03):
I think this is one of those classic questions
of is it that we we're moreaware of it now, which is good,
and we see it more and thereforewe're picking up on it more,
not only as professionals beingable to see it, but many coaches
now are very aware of reds,probably more than an eating
disorder, but certainly moreaware of reds.
And also parents have a littlebit more understanding of it.

(01:01:25):
They might not understandeverything, but they do have
more of an understanding.
And I think we are seeing itmore, but I think it's always
been there.
It's always been there, butit's it's probably never been
talked about in the way thatit's talked about now.
I think also the the you know,competitive mindset of an
athlete is a very similarmindset to people who often end
up having an eating disorder aswell.

(01:01:46):
So they're very like aligned interms of like often
perfectionistic or competitive,wanting to maybe sort of prove
themselves or do their best, thecontrol nature, like this all
is wrapped up in what often anathlete is is like, and
certainly an endurance athleteactually.

And and and the reason I mentioned the segue
from the previous topic topic isis there an element of wanting
to suffer actually?
Like, is that a thing as well?

Claire Fudge (01:02:12):
I don't I don't think so.
I think wanting to win, wantingto prove oneself, the control
that it's possible.
I think that more than thesuffering, although for some
people with an eating disorder,it's self-harm essentially.
It's going through puttingthemselves in in that place
where they're actually harmingthemselves through restricting
their eating.
So I I guess for some people ityeah, it sits in that.

But it's interesting how it certainly her
seeing fueling for her sportseemed to be a significant part
of her learning to manage it,even if it's not, you know, even
if it's never going to go away.
But I mean, there was just somuch like there's so much wisdom
in in her talk.
I love I I thought she wasgonna say Rogard Kipling's If as

(01:02:55):
her resource, only because I'veheard her talk about it quite a
few times, and it is it is anamazing poem.
And I love the way shedescribes it about just sort of
you living your best life,basically.
And I think that was reallycool.
And and also how she how sheanswered Ryan's question.
I thought that was that wasbeautiful in terms of the words
of her her dad.
So yeah, a crack a lot like abrilliant episode or last

(01:03:16):
interview of the season, but ofcourse, we'll have our catch-up,
our season catch-up to finishoff season 10.
So, yeah, just like I said atthe very start, it's one of the
people I was approaching rightat the start of the podcast
journey.
So absolutely brilliant to gether on, and she easily lived up
to the expectations and exceededthem as well.

(01:03:37):
So, a really, really coolinterview.
And for everyone at home, keepon training.

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