Breaking Free: From Lawyer to Endurance Entrepreneur with Simon Dent

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
I've always been very aware of my limitations.
I think the successes I've hadwith business, knowing my
shortcomings which are plenty,but surrounding myself with
people who know a lot more thanme I refer to as standing on the
shoulder of giants.
And so any business I build,I'll make sure I'm not the
smartest in the room I I don'twant to be, in fact I want to be
the least smartest in the room.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
What does it take to break free from the corporate
grind, build multiple businesseswith zero industry experience
and push your body to theabsolute limit in some of the
toughest endurance races on theplanet?
Well, today's guest, simon Dent, has done it all From working
as a solicitor in the city topromoting celebrity-packed

(00:47):
nightclubs, to building some ofthe most successful marketing
and publishing agencies in sport.
Simon's journey is anything butconventional.
He's also completed theMarathon des Sables, one of the
toughest races on earth, and isnow on a mission to reduce
plastic waste in the sportsindustry.
What a CV.

(01:08):
So in this episode, simon sharesthe mindset shifts needed to
leave a secure job, howendurance sport shapes elite
entrepreneurs and why mostfootballers go bankrupt, and how
to avoid the same financialtraps.
If you want lessons inresilience, reinvention and
making your passion yourbusiness, this is the one that

(01:30):
you can't afford to miss.
So let's dive into thisinterview with the awesome Simon
Dent.
Do you know what?
When we look at the back end ofthis podcast, then we see
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We see that 57% of the peoplethat regularly listen to it
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(01:53):
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(02:15):
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So thank you so much for yoursupport and for being a part of
the Business of Endurancecommunity.
Let's dive in.
So, simon, welcome to theBusiness of Endurance podcast.

(02:35):
I'm really looking forward tochatting to you, and I reckon I
don't know that I've evercreated as diverse range of
questions for any guest as Ihave for you today.
So we'll see where that leadsus.
But you started your career inthe world of law, and it's a
really interesting story how youbattled to become a big city
lawyer but then decided thatthat wasn't your chosen path.

(02:59):
So how did you become a lawyerin the city and what was it
about you that allowed you toget there?

Speaker 1 (03:05):
but also what was it about what you found when you
got there after all of thatstruggle that it wasn't right
for you yeah, good question anda big one to start with, but
they're actually really a sortof foundation piece for me
because I, you know, even thoughthat was well, I'm 48 now, so
that was 97.
I graduated 2002, I qualifiedas a lawyer and it was like

(03:26):
quite a long time ago, but I'mconstantly reminded of lessons
from then that helped me.
Now, I think, like a lot ofpeople, I ended up at uni doing
law because it was seen to be agood degree.
I loved it, I love studying law, and then when I got to London
to do what was then the LPC, afew little warning signs that I
didn't enjoy so much.

(03:47):
There was less of the sort ofwhy and sort of philosophy
around the law and the criminallaw and all that stuff.
And it suddenly came aboutclients in billable time, and
that's when the flag startedbeing raised, really.
But I was already on theconveyor belt by then.
And then it took me a long timeto get a training contract,
which is obviously part of theprocess.
And it's actually bizarre youthink about this yesterday that

(04:10):
over two years I received 250rejection letters, which I've
got all of them still, and Ithink, without being aware of at
the time.
That rejection was served mevery well for later in life.
But I finally got a trainingcontract, I qualified and then,
yeah, as you sort of highlighted, a couple of years into it sort

(04:31):
of things started heading south, and I think that was.
There's probably a few reasonsfor it.
I was a sort of you know youngman living in London burning the
camera at both ends, but Ithink where I really tripped up
was that I, I had to workincredibly hard at school and
uni just to sort of get to par.
I was never a sort of in thetop set.

(04:51):
I wasn't from an academicbackground.
I, you know, my foundation ofeducation, I think it's probably
fair to say was pretty poor.
I was in and this is no faultto my parents at all but my dad
was in the army.
So I, I spent my formative yearsarmy schools in Germany, hong
Kong, which just weren't great,and then the boarding school I
was sent to because we were away, so much wasn't great, and so

(05:12):
it's sort of, you know, I don'tthink I had a really good
foundational education and sofrom ages sort of 12 upwards I
worked really, really hard.
So, you know, school holidays,honestly, and even uni holidays
I would do eight hours a day atmy desk just understanding
things, catching up.
So I think what probablyhappened is that I cheated the

(05:33):
system a bit in that I worked sohard that when I actually got
to qualification and becoming alawyer I was quite fatigued.
And I was suddenly, you know,in this fancy law firm in a city
surrounded by your Oxbridge,your Durham's, your Exeter's,
who had swum through, drunkthemselves through university,

(05:54):
and there I was sort of head inhands already and they were just
starting.
And I think that's really wherethe problem started.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
And at what point did it become too much?
At what point did you go enough, and what was it that created
that tipping point?

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, it was happening over a period of time
and I started to experiencefeelings, emotions which are
very familiar to me today andprobably familiar to a lot of
people today, because we talkabout them more and understand
them more.
But back then I actually wentto my GP and explained feelings
that I now know are anxiety anddepression.

(06:28):
But I was told that it was aniron deficiency.
So I was then put on irontablets and so for three months
I was starting to get clinicallydepressed and was being given
iron supplements to counter it,and I was still going to work, I
wasn't taking time off, Iwasn't being given time off and
it was getting worse and worse.
And, yeah, one morning Ibasically just broke down and I

(06:52):
just found myself in a bit of aheap in my front room in a very
bad way and was immediatelyadmitted to a private hospital,
and that's where the processstarted.
It was an amazing place calledthe Capio Nightingale Hospital
in Marylebone and I was admittedwith, basically, yeah, clinical
depression, anxiety.

(07:12):
I wasn't sectioned, I waspretty close to it, but they
said I could need to go on asix-month intense program
whereby I would do one-on-onesessions in the morning and then
group therapy in the afternoons.
So you know.
Suddenly being plucked out ofthe city am I, you know, living
in a one-bedroom flat to thenbeing admitted to a psychiatric
hospital, which is an amazinghospital.

(07:33):
But yeah, life changed prettyquickly.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
I actually, from a background of working in mental
health actually as well, I canunderstand how, or start to
understand how difficult thatmust be from that kind of
fast-paced lifestyle into thismental health hospital, actually
reading and researching aroundyou.
Then you went into this careerin terms of nightclubs,
entertainment promoting.

(07:56):
So how did you get from thatplace of where you were really
struggling from a mental healthperspective?
What was the big change?
So what happened after thatevent and how did you then slip
into kind of another world ofendurance actually, because I
would say nightclubs there's,there's definitely an endurance
there.
So, yeah, how did that happen?

Speaker 1 (08:15):
yeah, it was interesting because again, I
sort of whilst at the Caprio 90girl, I turned to the books and
so I treated it almost like acourse or an MBA or a mini MBA
and I studied the mind.
I studied I was doing cognitivebehavioral therapy and I
immersed myself in it and Istarted to understand things I'd
never even, you know, beenaware of before how the mind

(08:37):
works and and literally, I thinkI was five months into the six
month program and I walked outmy flat window and I should
remember it so, so well that Isaw colors again and I hadn't
seen, been seeing colors formonths and it was such a strange
thing even sounds strange totalk about it now but my world
was gray for probably 12 monthsand I walked out and I was just

(09:01):
overwhelmed with all the colorsI could see in London and I
still yeah, it's hilarious.
Actually, I ended up walkingfrom Sheppard's Bush to Marriott
at Burnworth, hostel Wars whichI'd never done before and up
Oxford Street.
For some reason I walked intothe old Top man on Oxford Circus
and bought a pair of redtrousers.
I'd never owned a pair of redtrousers, but they're the most
overwhelming, exciting, funthing because I could see red

(09:24):
again, so.
But there's an overwhelmingexciting, fun thing because I
could see red again.
So, anyway, that's a bit ofsidetrack, but so I almost was I
wouldn't say I'd cracked it butsuddenly I understood what was
happening.
I developed these copingmechanisms and ways that I could
now tackle these negativethoughts that were coming to my
head and so, yeah, off the backof that, things got exciting.
You know, things got.
I was always incrediblysociable.

(09:45):
I'd always had a good network.
I had a very good friend whohad set up a nightclub
promotions business and, yeah,he asked me to join him in that
and so I had an incredible, yeah, as you've said, one of many
pivots I've had in my life, butorganizing.
There was sort of 20 of us thatwe used to organize probably
around 17 parties a week atLondon's High and Nightclub.
So I did that for a few yearsand that again was another sort

(10:09):
of foundation that thenpropelled me forward into a
career of sport and business.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
That kind of leads me on to and I know there's
multiple business steps thatwe're going to come back to.
But how did you go from that tothe world of endurance sport?
Because what you've justdescribed to me and I'm reading
jog on by bella mackie at themoment, and it's actually it's
the first book I've ever read orlistened to that has has

(10:34):
described the world ofdepression and anxiety in
similar words to what you'vejust used in, like no color and
suddenly the, the colour cameback and it's really interesting
.
So the reason I find it reallyinteresting is my eldest
daughter has been strugglingwith her mental health and it's
the first thing I've ever readwhere I've gone.
She's talking like my daughterwas talking and it's fascinating

(10:56):
.
So and Bella finds the world ofrunning helps her a lot Was it
linked to mental health that gotyou into running?
Or what got you into endurancesports?
And where did that endurancesport journey take you?
For those that don't know muchabout you?

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, wow, okay and yeah.
So, as you said, there were afew more sort of pivots along
the way and it was in Price 2014.
I hadn't really run before mean, I've obviously run, I've, you
know, played five a side footwith my mates and but never done
an organized running event.
And I was what?
38 at the time and a charityplace came up for london

(11:39):
marathon and, for whatever everreason, I said yes.
Now, at the time I wasn't in aparticularly bad spot with my
mental health.
As I said, I'd sort of.
Obviously there were waves andpeaks and troughs, like we all
have, but I had a bit of atoolkit by then to sort of help
when things were happening orcertain warning signs were

(12:00):
happening.
So I got into.
Yeah, london Marathon was myfirst event in 2014.
I think I did it in four hours30.
I've got some brilliant photosof me doing it.
I think that the finish linethere's a post box ran past me,
which is what I thought was aglorious finish line photo.
Now I see if what it really was, but that was fun.
And then, off the back of that,I then then entered again 2015,

(12:23):
got a charity place and that,for me, really started I was
probably, I was still drinkingquite a bit, I was a bit
overweight, but for me, you know, something happened and I'm
sure you guys are aware.
London Marathon is a veryspecial day and the sort of the
mixture of, I think, probablythe goal setting and the,

(12:43):
therefore the training towardssomething, again really reminded
me of my, I think my way I usedto sort of, you know, study for
exams and then there'd be amoment at the end of it and that
sort of being a verygoal-orientated person.
I was like, hold on a second,this is quite interesting.
And then, yeah, off the back ofthat, did a couple of halves.
It wasn't until 2018 that I didmy first ultra, which was Race

(13:06):
to the King, which I'm sure youboth know, and then that was
that.
I mean, off the back of theRace to the King, I'd actually
set up a creative agency calledDark Courses a year before,
which we subsequently went on tohave lots of success with.
But again, that was when I wasbuilding a business.
I was in pretty stressed, butactually I found ultra running,

(13:27):
as you highlighted earlier, areally nice form of therapy and
again, I think, taking thingsfrom the sort of the toolkit I
developed post capi united, geta hospital and marrying it.
What with what I was gettingfrom ultra running.
I found it quite a potent mixand that was that.
That was the start of my sortof ultra journey and that sort

(13:49):
of has pretty much snowballedsince then.
Really, I'd probably say thehighlights being Marathon de
Sable in 22.
Sorry, in 2023.
My first 100-miler in 22.
I DNF'd the Dragons back lastyear.
I finished the event as ahatchling.
I didn't quite get to finish itwith a dragon, but I still
completed down to Cardiff.
But yeah, it's been quite asort of.

(14:10):
I've immersed myself in it now,really.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
So retrospectively looking back.
What made the Dragons back thehighlight and what do you now
know?
What do you now see, from amental health point of view,
that running does for you?

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, I think it's really important to hire as well
for me In the success I've hadin businesses the limited
success, obviously, with lots offailures as well.
I think it's.
I've always been very aware ofmy limitations.
As I said earlier, my journeystarted with someone who worked
really hard but wasn'tparticularly clever.
I think the successes I've hadwith business, knowing my

(14:49):
shortcomings, which are plenty,but surrounding myself with
people who know a lot more thanme, I refer to as standing on
the shoulder of giants, and soany business I build, I'll make
sure I'm not the smartest in theroom.
I don't want to be.
In fact I want to be the leastsmartest in the room, and I
think what I sort of stumbledinto with running was that and I
hope I don't defend any of yourlisteners, but I regard it as a

(15:10):
bit of a talent in the sportand I've sort of when I got into
running I suppose I wasgenetically blessed I had a
slight frame.
I mean, I was carrying a youknow a few stone more than I
should have been, but my framelent itself quite well to it and
also, I think, because I'd cometo running quite late in life,
age 38.
There were no historicalniggles or sort of knees or

(15:32):
ankles or there was no sort ofinjuries that I was carrying
which I hear a lot about now.
My contemporaries who have beenrunning for 30 years, they're
all sort of just always injured.
I mean touch wood.
I really never injured somemassive touching wood there.
But yeah, going back to themental health part, I just found
that it was for me such an easymechanism that I could.

(15:53):
I know we always talk about andeveryone talks about digital
distraction and how we're alwayson our phones and we don't have
any thinking time and we'realways getting inputs.
We moved down to Sussex in aboutfive years ago this year and on
my morning runs I admit to youthat you know pretty much every

(16:13):
day but I can go for a run herenot see a person, any signs of
human life at all.
I'll certainly see no traffic,traffic lights, digital outdoor
displays, marketing, advertisingboards.
So it's complete me time.
It's no phone time, there's noinput.

(16:34):
So obviously I occasionally usethe podcast but music.
But I'm very lucky that I cango on a run with no
interruptions for four hours andregularly access what everyone
refers to as flow state and Ithink in London up until 2020, I
never really accessed flowstate because obviously there
are so many inputs even when Irun, whether it's traffic lights

(16:54):
, beeping horns, you knowwhatever it was people.
Now I can go out here and justjust lose myself and I think
that, as a form of therapy, oreven just medicine, has been
just game changing for me.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
I think it's interesting what you say,
actually, when you're in thisspace and we've talked to so
many, so many amazing guests onthis podcast that talk about
this kind of headspace and thissilence and actually coming from
somewhere.
That's, you know, in yourmultiple different businesses
that you have that are very sortof full on to be able to have
that space, multiple differentbusinesses that you have that
are very sort of full on to beable to have that space.

(17:27):
I think is is really importantand and on that theme, what do
you think you've?
You've got your, your agency.
What is it?
Wild, wild horses, no, a darkdark, dark horses.
That's actually been sold, soI've stepped away from dark
horses okay, so when, when youthinking, thinking about
business and also about sport,what do you think, thinking from
an endurance perspective, whatdo you think that the world of

(17:50):
endurance so for you, thatreally that ultra side of
running has given you in termsof business, and also vice versa
?
So what does business do youthink sort of give to your ultra
running endurance?

Speaker 1 (18:04):
That's something I think about a lot and I think
there are there's a number ofpoints.
I think the.
I think goal setting, as Itouched on earlier, is really
important.
I think both you know obviouslysetting out on any training for
any event, it's all abouthaving that goal you're working
towards.
And obviously in business,whether that's daily, weekly,

(18:24):
annual, you know goals for thebusiness are really important.
I think the ability to embracefailure again, that was
something that I think I reallygot from my those formative
years I told you about with the250 rejection letters from law
firms.
That's when that sort of musclewas really sharpened.
And I've not lost, and I thinkI'm.

(18:45):
I'm very lucky that I can walkfrom failure to failure and I
think you know when you'recurled up in a fetal position
you're flat in london crying andhaving to call an ambulance
because you don't have happenedto you after that.
You're kind of okay with mostfailures, if not all failures,
and I wouldn't sound bulletproof, but there's not much people

(19:08):
can do to me now.
Having experienced that in lifeand I think again for business,
in all the business I've beeninvolved with what to some
people are catastrophic eventsthat you know suddenly people
find very distressing, I'm quiteblessed as a leader that I can
brush them off quite quickly andwe can move on as a group.
I think positivity, as you know, like for all.

(19:32):
I mean again, I'm quite lucky.
In fact, I'm regularly mockedfor being too positive, but
that's quite handy in businessand in running, especially in
ultra running, I think I'malways that annoying guy who's
asking how your day is when I'mrunning alongside you and, yeah,
I probably do upset a fewpeople with that toxic
positivity I think they call it,and then there's lots of others
.
But I think again and somethingthat actually I'd love to

(19:55):
highlight now, which is a real,it's been a real lesson for you
this year.
So in business, I've always, asI said earlier, surrounded
myself with experts and whetherthat's meant diluting 100% of a
business I own down to 15%.
I'm always aware that it'sbetter to have those smarter
people around you and that issomething I'll do in every

(20:17):
business that I find I own.
But interestingly enough, Isort of hadn't realized in
running I'd never done that and,as I said, I had a bit of a
spectacular fail last year withthe Dragons back.
It was the second race I'veever DNF'd, but on day two I
basically missed the cutoff, thetime cutoff.

(20:38):
I mean I'd never finishedanyway, but I'd trained so hard
and I sort of realizedafterwards that I'd never had a
coach in running and it was abit of a lot.
I was actually a bitembarrassed.
I suddenly thought, shit, I goon about this in life about
obviously always educateyourself, surround yourself with
experts standing on theshoulders of giants.

(20:58):
I don't have a coach.
So my big challenge for thisyear is I'm running 1,000
kilometers from Brisbane toSydney and so I'm very excited
to say that I've now got a coach, and my coach is the guy that
holds the fastest known timefrom Brisbane to Sydney.
So I found him in the deepest,darkest corner of the internet.
He runs Manly Running Club inSydney and, yeah, already only

(21:23):
six weeks in, I'm like holy shit.
Obviously my running's gotbetter because I've got an
expert telling me and it'sexciting actually, because I was
sort of thinking how I've gotaway with it anyway for the last
seven years of running ormaking all on myself and he's
even been through my Strava andhe actually said to me he was
like he just couldn't believethat I went into dragon's bat.

(21:46):
He was like you were sofatigued like I could tell from
your strava you were.
No one knew that you were amess.
And then he also said in in2022 I did a sub-3 marathon.
He was like how on earth you dothat?
Because I looked your stravafor like the months he'd
captured.
It's a complete mess.
So my point there so somethingI haven't learned is absolutely

(22:06):
surround yourself with experts,whether that's in business, or
get yourself a running coach,because, my god, they make a
difference that's brilliant andI love.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
I love the fact that you've got so far with your
ultra running without thesupport of a coach, and I was
going to.
I was going to ask you for aspecific sort of well, but I
will.
No, I will still ask you.
So you've sort of answered it,but is there a specific thing
that that running coach forsomebody that's thinking, do I
get a running coach, do I not?
Is there a specific thing thathe has changed or told you to do

(22:36):
or to stop doing that has madethat improvement so far?

Speaker 1 (22:41):
absolutely and in the world of ultras I ended up in
this sort of school of thought,or certainly the literature and
the content I was following wasalways about time on feet and
whether that was for, as I said,you know, hundred milers
marathon to solve, dragons back,whatever it was, and there was
always in the back of my headtime on feet.
And so the way that manifestedmyself for me most weeks was

(23:06):
three hour run on Tuesday, threehour on Thursday and then a
sort of five hour on Sunday, andI was just smashing that out
and and I'm I'm horriblyconsistent, so that I was doing
that for years and in between Iwas trying to be a present
father, business owner, husband,just you know, and actually

(23:29):
it's a bit of a mess, whereasI'm now, as I said, well, I'm 20
weeks out from running athousand kilometers and the
coach I'm running every day now,but this morning was a 45
minute run, tomorrow is 35minutes of strides, the longest
run I've got this week is twohours and he's like yeah, no,
worries, like wick, you're gonnarun 44 miles a day and you will

(23:52):
improve and get faster as eachday goes and you'll sprint into
sydney and the most you're evergoing to run is two and a half
hours, which just blow my mind.
I I'm just sort of you know,I've, I and know I feel better.
My wife loves it because I'm athome a lot more.
It's a win-win everywherereally.
But I'm sort of like I justfollowed the wrong thing for

(24:14):
years and so yeah, in answer toyour question, I'm running a lot
less to run a lot further.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Interesting.
Are you missing the long runson a Sunday?

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, I wish for my life's in.
Oh, so much we'll do at home.
Now I should take a paper andsit at the end of the drive for
two hours.
No, no, I don't mean that I domiss the downs.
Actually I kind of.
Yeah, I do miss the downs a lotbecause I because you know, on
my sunday five hours I could goand see some amazing things and
whereas now I'm sort of I'veeven actually bought a treadmill
for home.
So, yeah, it's, it's, it'sfaster, quicker, but I, I do

(24:50):
miss the, the long stuff.
But, to be brutally honest, I'dget it.
You know, it's like you comeback from a five-hour run on
sunday.
I'm no use to anyone, you know,I'm literally, whereas now I
can come, you know, the 45minute run, and your endorphins
and dopamine are pinging aroundand I'm actually quite a useful
human.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, I completely get it, because I did exactly
the same thing.
I was doing long, long runs andthen now I've got a much
smarter training plan.
I'm missing all of those, but Idid quite like going exploring
with just an ultra pack on andending up in places that I'd
never seen before.
So, yeah, it's really difficult, just on this, sticking with
this topic.

(25:28):
Going back to business, how doyou make sure you recruit people
that are better than you inparticular areas?
Do you have a process that youthink these are the types of
people this is the culture Iwant to recruit around, or do I
use any technology to help youidentify the right people?

(25:48):
You know how do you do that?

Speaker 1 (25:50):
yeah, good question.
I'm.
I've just started the role as achairman of a really excited
business called affirmative andwe're a creative agency and we
describe ourselves as being atthe cutting edge of culture.
We were we rooted in musicproduction, but we're actually
launching a 360 creativebusiness now.
As the chairman, my main roleis recruitment, so I'm currently
six or eight briefs out at themoment looking at people and

(26:12):
it's really it's really hard.
It's really hard to find reallygood people.
I think the last time I wasrecruiting was seven years ago
at the helm of dark horses, andthat's a very different time.
To recruit there, I see, a loteasier because the rules of
engagement were a lot clearer.
I'm actually meeting people nowand seeing people now.
One of the first questions andfair enough is is this you know,

(26:36):
hybrid work from home, like allthese questions, I've just like
wow, chat, chibi, chibi.
What does that mean?
And it's interesting becauseit's interesting, because I'm
always about building businessesthat have a real culture, and
what I mean by that is having acentralised mission that the
team get behind, having a strongidentity.
I believe you recruit onpersonality and if that person's

(27:00):
right, I believe you can end upteaching the job.
I mean I'm in no position tojudge anyone on the CV.
When I've gone from lawyer tonightclub sports agent, to
publishing company owner,advertising agency owner, now
production business owner and afew other things in between.
None of those things were on myCV before someone gave me the

(27:21):
opportunity.
So I think, with the rightattitude, I think that's a
massive thing.
Massive thing I mean I've gotactually.
Can I say this?
Yeah, I can say this.
We're going through interviewprocess at the moment and there
are a couple of people who wereearmuffs the role and we set a
little task, a littlepresentation task, as the final
stage and it was to be done onzoom, and one of the candidates

(27:43):
insisted on coming to the officeand doing it in person and she
wasn't very well and the momentshe just messaged to say I want
to do this in person she's onlyyoung, I'm not very well, but
I'm going to come in and do thisand the others were just happy
to do it on zoom, I kind of werelike well, that's really

(28:04):
interesting, like that for me isa really interesting attitude
to have and so well, let's seewhat happens.
But that sort of thing I thinkis as I said so, attitude first,
and then I believe there is anelement of being able to teach
people a job on the go.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
I think what you were saying about opportunity there
as well, how it just made methink actually, because,
researching a little bit about,I mean, like I say, these
multiple businesses that you'vehad and the history behind that,
I think I'm right in sayingthat you didn't necessarily have
a background or experience insome of those businesses that
you went into, coming from thatlaw background, but people

(28:38):
obviously gave you thisopportunity.
What was it that made you kindof say yes to those
opportunities?
Or were you creating thoseopportunities?
You were there at the righttime, and did you ever kind of
suffer from feeling thatactually you didn't have the
right experience to be in theright place, like is that where
you started to surround yourselfwith these experts?

(29:00):
So tell me a little bit aboutthat.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
And again I go back to those formative years of
reaching rock bottom after alegal profession and actually
realizing that life's too short.
And actually, you know, Iregard that period of my life as
the best thing that could havepossibly happened to me, because
off the back of it I no longerthere was no such thing as fear

(29:23):
of failure, that I had.
No fear at all I also had.
I wasn't worried about riskbecause I knew that, whatever
happened, I was never going tobe in that position again.
So it sort of gave me I don'twant to sound dramatic, but a
bit of a superpower in thatpeople are always saying oh,
you're always pivoting, you knowthat, you know you never stay

(29:44):
in your lane and you know you'realways taking risks.
And I'm sort of yeah, it's notreally something to give me
credit for, because it feels sonatural to me, and so I think
that obviously there's aresponsibility if I have I've
got a family and I've gotchildren and I have employees.

(30:04):
So I'm not sort of like somecrazy loon running around just
taking massive risks everywhere,but I do think that I'm
open-minded to taking chances.
And again, if you don't mind mejust touching on Save Our Souls
, which is the brand I'velaunched this year.
I mean, that was born out of anidea that came running and you

(30:26):
know, three months later I wasin you know rural China, at
factories and designing aproduct which I had no right to
design with the factory, andhere we are now selling it.
So you kind of like I just yeah, I guess it's what you'd
probably say is, yeah, fear offailure.
Really, I'm not really thatscared by anything really.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
Can I ask you a question?
Are you?
This is not a reflection on howyou're acting, it's something
I'm curious about.
Do you think you're dyslexic?

Speaker 1 (30:58):
I'm not dyslexic, I'm definitely, I'm definitely, I'm
definitely on the spectrum, I'mdefinitely.
I would say I could definitelybe diagnosed with autism Again.
But I think that's somethingI've weaponized and, yeah, I
kind of.
It's a brilliant book.
Here we go, and it is a what isa good psychopath and why it'll

(31:19):
help you to think like one.
I mean, this book is by AndyMcN mcnabb, who you, I'm sure
you remember, is oh yeah, that'sit, and I read this and it's
I'll just read it back andmcnabb is diagnosed as a
psychopath, but he's a goodpsychopath.
I'm like a bad psychopath.
He's aiming to dial up or downqualities such as ruthlessness,

(31:40):
fearlessness, decisiveness,consciousness and empathy to get
the very best out of himselfand others.
And I feel like I read thatbook and was like, wow, I'm not
going to see it from therooftops.
I'm a good psychopath, but Ithink I probably am.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
It's fascinating because I think the reason I ask
about dyslexia was Possibly Imight be dyslexic yeah, I don't
know, could be that as well.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Possibly I might be dyslexic?

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, I don't know, could be that as well.
Well, I think so.
The reason I asked was becausepeople that are dyslexic usually
have an advantage running theirown businesses, because in
school everyone's taught well tolearn this thing.
You go from A to B down thisstraight path, but somebody that
struggles, that is dyslexic,typically has to go zigzagging
all over the place.

(32:23):
But they work out how to getthere of their own right and
that's, and that's why it's anadvantage in business, because
the entrepreneur no, and likeyou said, with the goal setting,
it's about setting the cleargoal and it's about going.
I don't know how I'm gettingthere, but I know I'm going to
work it out along the way andthat's why it sort of rang true
with me.
I think the other thing, thatbeing on the spectrum is a

(32:45):
really interesting point.
There's a book called Driven by, I think, douglas Brackman, and
he describes it instead of ADHD, he describes it as the driven
gene, which is just fascinating.
But I think that the psychopaththing is We'll come back to
that.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
I'll go with Driven, just on that.
I think there's something elsewhich I think could be related
to these sort of again, I don'tknow the exact medical term
which is the best, but forwhatever reason again, I don't
know how and where this camefrom I'm incredibly consistent
and it's not hard for me to beconsistent.

(33:22):
I don't, again, I'm, you know,I'm in no way an elite athlete
at all, but why, and I I can dois turn up every single day and
it's sometimes strange, I listento I was actually listening to
a khalina jaune podcastyesterday and I've listened to
loads and one of the questionsis always you know, how do you?
You know, is it easy for you toget up every day, even in the
winter?

(33:42):
And they all say no, sorry,it's, it's not easy and that,
and I find it really easy, likeI, I do find it easy.
I don't, I don't, I don't want amedal for it and I don't.
You know, I don't judge otherpeople that don't find it easy,
but I'm really lucky and I thinkthat if, whatever you do, you
just can keep turning up.

(34:02):
And again, I joke with matesthat I sort of I have a very
positive outlook, as I saidearlier and I've got a short
memory, and so when you've got apositive outlook and a short
memory and you're consistent,like you can do anything like
really, because you sort of youjust keep going and I kind of do
, but yeah, I appreciate that,I'm just lucky to have that,

(34:23):
that's nothing.
I, that's not a skill.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
I think that it's the I think I'm right in quoting
Robin Sharma that says it's notthe big things you do
occasionally that make thedifference.
It's the little things that youdo often, and it is that ability
to just show up and do it dayafter day and day.
You know, and in the world offinance, which was my historical

(34:48):
business, we always talkedabout it with compound growth
it's just getting the growthyear on year on year that makes
makes the difference and thatkind of segues into your world
as a football agent.
Because I heard you quotesomething which I remember
hearing years ago and I thinkthe statistic I heard you quote
was that 70 of footballers gobankrupt.
Yeah, and I mean that'sfrightening when we understand

(35:09):
how much money the majority ofthem get paid.
As, when you were acting as afootball agent, what was your
experience about how thosepeople were educated about
finance?
And also, how do you think youknow I was always passionate
about why are schools notteaching finance?
We all have a mortgage, we allhave a credit card, we all have
a whatever, but we don't gettaught it at school.

(35:31):
So talk to me a bit about thatfrom a football agent point of
view, but also from an educationpoint of view.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, and that's a really interesting subject and I
think, yeah, so that was a sortof 2010 to 2014.
I was, you know, so that was asort of 2010 to 2014.
I was looking after some quitewell-known footballers you know
this claim and none of those youknow were experiencing
bankruptcy issues.
But I think that and, funnyenough, at the moment I'm

(35:58):
consulting, actually, thefascinating organisation based
in the Cayman Islands who arelooking to help with this issue.
So it's time you mentioned thisand it still is a problem.
I think there are a number offactors thrown into this sort of
pot as to why this is the case,but it's also worth stressing
it's also the case in the NBAand in the NFL in America.
So this isn't just a soccer UKproblem.
This is an elite sportsmanissue and I think that I'd

(36:22):
probably say three main factorsstand out for me.
Firstly is that the backgroundthat these professionals come
from is often low-incomehouseholds from less privileged
backgrounds.
So I think that that's a factorthat they, from a young age,
aren't experienced to money orany sort of positive, good money

(36:47):
habits.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
I think that's a huge factor, which I guess, is why
you wouldn't see it as much inrugby as you would in football,
because the background is allgold and it's, yeah, I think
that's a big factor.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
I think, secondly, any child that is earmarked to
become a professional.
They are whipped out ofeducation age 13, 14, pretty
much and so, you know, miss outon what a lot of people would
have.
I mean, obviously not on mostpeople, I doubt most people in
this country go to university,but even their GCSEs it's never
the priority, it's just aboutthe tick box, because you're

(37:19):
going to be a pro footballer.
So that's a big thing.
And then, unfortunately,probably one of the biggest
factors is the once they do makeit, the lack of advice was a
combination of lack of goodadvice, but then also people
surrounding these peopleactively trying to extract money
off them, and so these fourfactors are pretty much the

(37:40):
reason.
And also it's it's such a smallearning window.
I mean, the average elitesoccer player in this country
will be on what we would, youknow, describe was the big money
for probably four years, fiveyears max.
So if you think you're I, youknow I.
I imagine that my earning, my,my life income, will be spread
over probably 50 years.

(38:02):
Maybe a bit more of work, hardwork, whereas you think a
footballer it's over five yearsand they took themselves out of
education so they knew nothingelse.
They've got no infrastructurearound them, dare I say.
It's hardly surprising thatthat is a statistic.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
And going back to the schooling piece, do you think
that schools do a good job ofeducating our children for
today's society?

Speaker 1 (38:28):
oh, don't get me started on schools, if I'm not
careful I'll sound like andrewtoates, but I, yeah, no, I think
the two biggest things well,arguably the biggest things in
life the person decides tosettle down with whether that's
a man or woman and have childrenwith, and also how you provide
for your loved ones.
And I think at school we talknothing about personal

(38:50):
relationships, we talk nothingabout empathy, we talk nothing
about the opposite sex or eventhe same sex in relationships
and we talk nothing about how tolook after a human.
Like how on earth do we spend16 years of education and we're
not shown how to bring up achild?
Like it blows my mind thatthat's the most important thing

(39:12):
any of us ever do.
So that pisses me off.
But then also going back to thefinancial health, absolutely
like there is and again I'm notgoing to go all conspiracy
theory on you all, but I find itstrange that there's not a
module at compulsory schoolingthat is about how to look after
money, what money is, what to dowith money.

(39:34):
And yeah, I don't want to goconspiracy theory, but it does
sort of suit the system that 70%of this country come out of
education and don't really knowwhat to do with money, because I
think that certainly suits thegovernment.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, I think back to my education actually, and
there isn't anything you'retaught about money, and
certainly not you know that'sshowing my age now but certainly
not about looking afteryourself at all.
You talk about looking after ahuman.
It's crazy when you think of it.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
It really is, isn't it?
And it's so like crazy when,when you think of it, it really
is, isn't it?
And it's so like I, forwhatever reason.
I I again, I'm a bit, that's abit of a bookworm, but I'm, I'm
still like a four out of tenpartner, dad, dad, because I'm
just learning on the job andhaving to just read and educate
myself, I just I, you know, forwhatever reason, I kind of
didn't really understand whatany of it was and I thought you

(40:25):
know, miraculously.
So when you're in your 20s, yousuddenly become an adult and
this, you're blessed with thismoment of all this knowledge.
And like I don't get it.
I mean thankfully, I well, Isay thankfully I didn't get
married till 38 and and eventhen I was like still a bit
behind, well, massively behindthe curve.
But if I got married in my 20sit would have been an absolute

(40:45):
disaster.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
They say the male brain doesn't mature until age
40.
So it's probably about right.
Actually, I'll get behind that.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
So, talking about charities and schooling,
education, you were telling us alittle bit before we started
this conversation today about areally exciting charity event
that you're about to do that'srelated to education, so tell us
a little bit more about it.
You dipped in a little bitabout your running coach there,
so what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Well, firstly, it's not say about to do, it's 20
weeks away About.
I just had a little bluffthrough my chest when we had a
band.
Yeah, so 19th of July this yearI'm running from Brisbane to
Sydney.
I'm running for an organisation, charity, called Delalio Rugby
Works, which was an organisationset up by the ex-Ingland rugby
captain, lawrence Delalio, andit is an organisation that helps

(41:36):
children that have beenexcluded from mainstream
education learn life skills, andso we are one of the official
partners of the British IrishLions Tour of Australia.
So it's really exciting.
So, yeah, I am very much on thejourney of fundraising.
We have a JustGiving page.
So please, please, please, putthat in the show notes.
But yeah, myself and anAustralian friend of mine are

(41:59):
going to be running 44 miles aday for 14 days down the East
Coast to Australia.
So yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I've going to be running 44
miles a day for 14 days down theEast Coast to Australia.
So yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I've managed to find a coach
who holds the fastest known timefor that distance, that journey
.
So fingers crossed, I mean I'min the best hands possible.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
It sounds absolutely awesome and what an amazing
place to do that as well.
Big question, because youtalked a little bit about it
before what are you going to doto look after your feet, because
I know that's a big area ofyours in terms of saving our
souls?

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's a good question and Ithink, just yeah, we're jumping
around, but that you know, saveOur Souls as a brand, we
describe ourselves as being asort of foot care brand for the
everyday athlete.
So it's by no means for eliteathletes, but the sort of
insight I got, which reallystarted when I moved down to
Sussex, was I went from roadrunning to trail running and I

(42:54):
started getting really mangledfeet just being out on the
trails all day, every day, inboth summer and winter, and it
really got me thinking aboutfeet.
And then I did the marathonwhich, as your listeners will
know, it is an absolute footcare frenzy.
I mean, we had 24 full-timefoot doctors following us around
the sahara, and so thatexperience again showed me, wow,

(43:18):
okay, feet are really important.
And so, yeah, save ourselves isborn out of those experiences,
really, and with our flagshipand launch product is the
Atacama, which is a shoe drive.
So again, going back to mystory here, I developed very bad
chill blains on my feet neverhad that in London running and
after a lot of investigationwith various podiatrists and

(43:38):
croppetists, we discovered thatevery morning I was putting on
damp shoes to go out running inand the damp shoes were causing
chafing and immediately makingmy feet cold and was causing
chill blame.
So the atacama shoe dryer wasborn and and yeah, we, we had it
built last year.
Really exciting, it's the firstof many products we'll be
launching to sort of health withfoot care.

(43:58):
But yeah, the atacama will drymost running shoes in 20 minutes
.
We'll put a discount code, ifyou want, in the show notes so
your listeners can sort of tuckin.
But it's been amazing.
We've been going sort of onsale now for seven weeks and
yeah, it's been a huge success.
But back to your question.
It's important to stress thatthe shoe dryer isn't just for

(44:20):
wet shoes caused by rain orwater.
One of the biggest problems infoot health is obviously foot
fungal issues caused by sweat,and I'm hoping the East Coast of
Australia will be more sweatthan rain, because that's sort
of how I envisage it, though itcould be raining the whole way,
which would be a disaster.
So yeah, very much, we willhave an Atacama, a portable

(44:41):
Atacama, with us and we will bedrying our shoes every evening
from the sweat.
So when we put them on in themorning we'll be good to go
Brilliant.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
And I think from listening to you talk about this
product which I woulddefinitely put the discount code
in the show notes, we'd love todo that it's about making the
shoes also last longer.
Yeah, so talk to me about the,you know, 200 miles per pair of
shoes principle, um, but alsothrow in.
I'd just like to kind ofcounteract that because

(45:09):
obviously, in a world wherewe've got some runners really
preaching, you know, come on,use the shoes for longer than
that, which I think is a greatthing, if we're trying to reduce
the amount of plastic in theworld, how are you trying to do
that with a plastic?

Speaker 1 (45:22):
yeah product yeah, so firstly, with the business
primary, the brand primary isabout foot health, but obviously
, as you've highlighted, aby-product is the longevity of
your footwear.
And yeah, as you mentioned,this train is now being sold
which tell you how many milesyou get from them, which blows
my mind, so might beprescriptive as to how much
money you spend with a brand,which is crazy.

(45:45):
And I think Kylian Jornet, whoI mentioned earlier, has
launched his own trainer brandand he proudly said at the UTMB
last year the trainers he worehe'd been wearing for two and a
half years and he is likerunning 200 miles a week in them
.
So it's absolute nonsense, tobe honest.
But yeah, what we're doing withthe atacama as well is that

(46:06):
we're we're fully aware that ifyou look after your trainers,
they last longer.
So whether that's from dryingthem from sweat or rain, but
also once a week, just just washthem, just, you know, get the
mud off them, put them inatacama for 20 minutes, dry them
out and they're good to go.
So absolutely will make themlast longer.
Obviously as well, a lot ofpeople now will wash their shoes

(46:28):
but stuff them down theradiators, but now that heat
from the radiator isn't greatfor the glue on the shoes so
they do degrade quickly.
So we're confident we'rehelping your shoes last longer.
The point you made aboutplastics it was something that
was really at the forefront ofour minds.
So when we were speaking topotential manufacturers, we met
them in Turkey, india, china.
What I learned pretty quicklyis if you're making an

(46:49):
electrical drying product, youcan't make it 100% from recycled
plastic.
So we ended up our manufactureris using it's about 80%
recyclable.
But the commitment we've madeis twofold.
Firstly, we're confident thisproduct will last for life.
I mean it's got a three-yearwarranty.
But, as I said, we were testingprototypes last year and we are

(47:10):
very confident any Atacama youbuy will last forever.
It will never end up inlandfill.
So that's a commitment.
But secondly, we've partneredwith an organization called
4Ocean, who are a brilliantorganization based in the States
and they remove plastic.
They remove plastic from theocean.
So it's huge organization andthe commitment we've made there
is that for every atacama soldwe're donating a pound to 4ocean

(47:34):
and so they are then removingthe equivalent plastic from the
ocean.
So at the moment, from theacamasole we're on about 30 pounds
of plastic we've removed fromthe ocean and our commitment is
by 2026 we'll go plastic neutral, which means at the end of the
year, for the total weight ofAtacama sold, we'll have removed

(47:57):
the equivalent weight ofplastic from the ocean.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
So we feel that's a really nice commitment to make,
even though we are on weight ofa plastic product I think that's
absolutely fantastic, not onlythe product, then, the way you
describe it in terms of helpingwith foot care, but also the
sustainability side of things.
I think more and more athletesnow certainly the younger
generations are looking at howcan we make things more

(48:19):
sustainable?
So and and actually you know,feeding that back into the full
ocean and collecting plastic, Imean it's just such a massive,
massive problem.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Yeah, we're satisfied and I think you know we're very
passionate about it and I thinkit's it'll be interesting to
see.
I mean, obviously, you know weare a startup and you know we
don't have big media budgets, sowe can't really, you know we're
not going to be upsetting anyof the major trainer brands, I
don't think.
But I think what we do hope isthat we can create a bit of a
movement that just gets peopleto sort of change their
behaviours a bit.

(48:51):
I mean, as I said, everyone'sgot a story about, you know, wet
trainers stinking out the houseon the radiator and the airing
cupboard, on the boiler and onthe AGA, whatever, like they're
everywhere, and that is soingrained behavior.
And I think we're starting tosee now that we've got some
great content going out on ourinstagram and on our youtube etc
.
And sort of.

(49:11):
We are getting people now justmessaging oh, you know, does
this work with the footballboots as well?
And does this work the skiboots?
And can I put my wet gloves onit?
Because I haven't.
And the answer is pretty muchyes to all of that and I think
it's really nice to see actuallypeople realising that it's like
anything.
Isn't it Like when somethingcomes along, that's new people

(49:32):
are a bit like, but seven, eightweeks in, we're starting to see
more and more sales and peopleare starting to understand what
we're doing.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
Yeah, and a product, obviously, that's going to be
like multi-use as well.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
I was just thinking of a, you know, a glove drying
thing, for I mean, funny enough,we were in the running show the
nec a couple of weeks ago andwe couldn't believe and
obviously it's the biggest sportwe couldn't believe how many
people asked just is it gonnakind of dry my son's football
boots?
We're sort of like, oh, he'spivot to football, we're not
gonna pick this football, but weyes, it can dry york into wood

(50:03):
amazing yeah so you, you talkedabout marathon de saab there and
something on both charlie andours bucket list.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
I haven't, but I know .
But actually I worked with asports podiatrist who spent a
lot of time out at those races,um, and some of the stories and
pictures are unreal.
So tell us a little bit abouthow do you look after your feet
when you're out there, but whatare the biggest problems?
So, if you look over the courseof the days of you running, do

(50:31):
you start off and actually gokind of getting away with it and
then it just gets worse andworse?
So what happens over the courseof those days?
What do you have to be reallyaware of?

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Yeah, I mean.
So I think it's the foot prepstarts weeks or months in
advance.
So I sort of you're very aware,by the amount of content and
books you can read aboutmarathon star, that it's a big
factor is about taking everyfeat, and so I started my foot
prep in advance by usingsomething called for dog's paws

(51:03):
and so and this is a littlesecret and you can buy it at the
vets and yeah, it's basicallyto to sort of toughen up your
dog's paws.
So my house, you can imagine,my wife's, you know, when I was
doing this every night gettingto bed, but yeah, I did that,
and so that was quite odd, andCan we just clarify what was
that called?
I can't remember the name, butit's basically for dog's paws.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
I have a vision of you tapping around on the floor.
Look what the dog does.
Now that sound.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Grey hair and good paws.
No, but that was my sort ofpre-event routine.
And then when you get out there, it is all about keeping sand
or debris out of your shoes.
Now, obviously, you havegaiters which cover your your
shoe and the idea is to keep outthe dust, the sand and the
stones, but I think thecombination of the heat, so it

(51:56):
was obviously getting 50 degreesthe sweat.
That therefore means your footswell.
So you're advised to go a sizeup with your footwear.
But what that means is for thefirst half day of day one you've
got this massive shoe on yourfoot is an idiot, so that in
itself is causing problems.
So then by the end of the daythey've swollen and then at
night, when it's really cold,your feet shrink again and you

(52:18):
put them back on.
Your feet's too big, and sothere's a lot of that happening.
But one of the keys I mean onthe day one I lost three
toenails, and that was day one Ihad good, I might, might feel
in good shape and I was.
There's some really goodtutorials online.
I had to take my feet.
I'd never take my feet beenrunning before, even doing
ultras, never take my feet, butI always take my feet now and

(52:40):
that basically what that wouldentail is, each morning and bear
in mind, you're doing this inthe desert and so you're sort of
trying to.
There's no running water orshowers, so you're you're trying
each morning, you have to takeoff all the bloody bandages and
bloody toe toenails.
Water is a premium, so you'retrying to clean your feet
without any running water.
Then you've got to re-tape them, which, when it's windy, sandy,

(53:03):
yeah, and so you're kind ofdoing that every morning, which
takes about 20 minutes, and then, as each day goes by, your feet
are getting worse and worse.
And you know, it sort ofculminated for me on the long
day which is a our year we did.
It was a 90k day, took me 22hours that day, but by when I
got in, so I left we'd serve a 6am.

(53:24):
I got in 4 am the next day andboth my trainers were red, just
covered in blood, and but you'reso messed up and mashed up you
don't really realize and yousort of you know they're sore,
but yeah, it was carnage.
And, as I said, they have abrilliant group of roving medics

(53:45):
called Doc Trotters who are,it's unbelievable.
I mean Google Doc TrottersMarathon and some of the images.
It's like it's a basically it'sa field hospital really, and
the incentive to finish each dayquickly is that you'll be close
to the front of the queue,because what would usually
happen is that if you're not atthe front of the queue, you'd
get in after however long you'vebeen out for in the desert, and

(54:07):
then you have to queue for anhour or two hours to see a
doctor.
It's very good that was theincentive to get back early, but
they were great and they wouldfor really bad feet.
You'd go and see them, but mostof the time you just sort them
yourselves.
So this, this, race.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
This race continually bounces from being almost the
top of my bucket list to beingalmost the bottom of my bucket
list, and it's stories like this.
I remember that one of the veryfirst guests I had on the
podcast was a guy called luketaberski and I remember him
showing me a photograph of hisfeet after mds.
It is, yeah, I wish I'd neverseen it.
To be honest, it it isfrightening.

(54:43):
But and actually you describingthat, I think I've become a
little bit blase.
I've heard quite a few peopletalk about mds on this podcast
and obviously most of that isit's a pivot point for them in
their endurance journey.
It's the thing that startstheir endurance journey quite
often.
But also I think I became alittle bit blase about how it
wasn't as difficult.

(55:04):
You know it's not the toughestrace on earth, etc.
Yeah, and yet you describingthat 22 hour day with bloodied
feet, yeah, suddenly has merethinking again.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
It's really interesting though, because,
again, I, it's like anythingthough, isn't it?
And outlook I sort of.
I my wife tells me that when Igot to the hotel after finishing
I was weeping, saying I'm neverrunning again and all this and
sort of whatever.
A month later I was like no, Iwasn't, that's rubbish.
Yeah, I kind of.

(55:34):
It is obviously really reallyhard, but I think that the
amazing thing about mds is therelationship reform form.
So tent 137, which was my tent,two of us did Dragon's Back,
three of us did Dragon's Back.
Actually, we see each otherthree times a year.
We do ultras together.
Now we're in touch with eachother.
We have a Christmas dinner, Ithink, probably because of the

(55:59):
terrain.
I mean Dragon's Back was amazingand really really hard, but it
was in Wales because of theterrain.
And I mean dragon's back wasamazing and really really hard,
but it was in wales.
So it was I love wales, but itwasn't as exotic, emotive and
whereas when you're in thesahara and you're just
surrounded by this epic scenerybeautiful sunsets, beautiful
sunrises, so you know magicalmoroccan mystery, the sort of

(56:22):
the food, all of it, it's sortof that you just kind of the
people you share that experiencewith.
I mean I'll go.
Oh yeah, I absolutely saydefinitely the best week of my
life, obviously apart frommarriages and children and all
that sort of stuff, but it wasjust.
It was incredible, it hadeverything and I probably can
say that because I finished itlike, obviously we had a
particularly brutal year becausewe had this heat wave, but I'd

(56:44):
absolutely do it.
And also, I think, going backto what we were discussing at
the beginning, it's like thereal test case for everything
you learn.
I felt that on the start linethere it was everything that had
gone before for me in my ultrarunning, even though's sort of
only, you know, not a long ultrarunning career, but that's five

(57:06):
, six years.
But I fear it's a brilliantplace to sort of bring it all
together.
And, yeah, anyone that is intoultras it's a bit pricey, but I
think, yeah, it's the one to dobrilliant, brilliant.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
I'm sold and back.
It's back on the top of my listagain.
Now, one of the questions weask at the end of of this
podcast and I mean we've alreadytalked about a few books
already but is what books haveyou found that helped you most
on your journey, or you findyourself recommending to others?
So what books really stand outon your journey?
Because I can see you've gotplenty in the backdrop.
Yeah, for those that are funnyenough listening.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
these are my.
These are sort of not my runningbooks, actually my running
books all upstairs, but I thinkthere's a, there's a, there's a
and I'm gonna be terrible andforget the authors, but I think
there's a brilliant book calleddo hard things, which and I
should know the author and Idon't, but absolutely a game
change for me I think thatthere's a brilliant book on and

(58:03):
we discussed it earlier with abusiness context, and again, I
will have to I can't name it,but it is all about compounding,
and I will have to by someonehardy, something like the
compound effect, no compoundeffect, the compound effect,
absolutely.
And it's really interestingbecause, again, that book is
about business.
But I was reading that justthinking all the time about

(58:27):
endurance, events and running.
So I think that, yeah, darrenhardy, the compound effect, and
yeah, I think that those two forme have been brilliant.
And then, obviously, the go-toanyone, the sort of gateway book
for runners I would always sayborn to run, because for me as a
, as a sort of a guide as towhat can be done and what can be

(58:49):
achieved, and manifestation ofrunning culture and community, I
think that that's an incrediblework.
So, those three absolutelybrilliant, thank you.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
And, and to add that, the good psychopath as well,
which is definitely also on mylist.
So yeah, because I suspect I'mgoing to resonate with that,
given what you described.
And then the last thing that wedo is we get the last guest to
ask the next guest a question,without knowing who that is, and
our last guest was thelegendary Iron man announcer,

(59:19):
paul Kay, and I think Claire hasgot Paul's question for you.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Yeah, so this is a good one.
So Paul asks what situationhave you been in where someone
said something quite critical toyou, or maybe in jest, but it
made you change your behaviour?
Like there and then and for thefuture, oh, good question, it's
growing.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Just Do you know what ?
Something does spring to mind,actually, which is quite
interesting and it's quiterandom, but I guess the answer
to this has to be quite random.
I'm good mates with GreatBritain English rugby league
legend, jamie Peacock, and Jamieand I we run lots of ultras
together.
Unfortunately, he's just had topull out of the Australian
event to get.
Unfortunately, you just had topull out of the australian event

(01:00:05):
, but you know, we're greatrunning buddies and I remember
ages ago with I probably thatthat's the stage I mentioned
quite a while ago when I wasprobably a bit tubby and
drinking too much and probablyeating too much and just being a
sort of, you know, strugglingto really get into running, the
formative years of it.
And I never forget and I, I itwasn't in jest at all, but we

(01:00:25):
were having a meal and Iremember that I I always used to
have a bit of an issue ofportion control and whether that
was going into a restaurant and, you know, nailing all the
bread before the starter comes,or even at home cooking for one,
or even just then cleaning upall the food off my family's
plate that I haven't eaten.
And jamie said something to mewhich is brilliant and I still

(01:00:48):
think about most neil's times,which will probably disturb him
a lot, but he always said hesaid to me, just eat 70 of
what's on your plate.
And I did that and I still dothat.
And lo and behold, since hesaid that I've probably lost
three stone, and in the bestshape of my life, and it was the
most simple, obvious bit ofjest stroke criticism.

(01:01:09):
But it was something that hesaid, he did and someone had
told him once and now it's suchan easy way to manage your food
intake is if you just leave 30percent of what you're on your.
Just leave it there on yourplate.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Claire, as a nutritionist, I've got to ask
what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Yeah, well, I think there's a number of things I was
thinking about at that point,actually, but it's a really good
answer and interesting inrelation to food, because
sometimes that puts people in atotally different place and they
go don't tell me what to do.
Actually, the fact it maybe wasplaying on your mind
potentially was the fact youwere able to maybe, to maybe

(01:01:46):
change that as well.
A portion is really difficult,isn't it?
Because people have what I calllike portion distortion, right,
they're not sure what is normalanymore and suddenly big plates
become normal and if you likefood, you you tend to eat it so,
and you were.
You were talking before aboutthis.
You know being quite regimented, you're good at like being able
to keep to something that youdecide you're going to do.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
So probably now that 70 is is your routine but it's
very visual as well and it'ssort of really that I think is
that is the, is the thing that'sreally interesting.
You can and you also get the,the sort of win at the end of
each meal you just like cool,and then that that definitely
does something as well yeah, Iuse visualization quite a bit on

(01:02:28):
a plate with athletes and withprofessionals.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
So using the visualization of quarters,
halves of protein, carbohydrateand that's, it's super, super
easy and essentially it doesrelate back to the science and
the evidence so yeah, does it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Does it?
Do your head in throwing away30% of the food?
Or have you got a dog?
That's very happy.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Yeah, my dog loves it .
He's the size of my dog.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Put on three stone, as he's lost it and do you just
leave your veg and just focus onthe meat and the potatoes?

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
I did put loads on my plate.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
Got a bigger plate now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
I think progress for me would be to only eat 100% of
the food that's on my plate.
Excellent, simon, this has beenreally interesting.
We've covered some amazingground and we've not even
covered all the differentbusinesses that you've done and
really looking forward tofollowing your progress and
raising money for an amazingcause, which we'll try and help
you do.
When you go down to the LionsTour, normally I do a little

(01:03:24):
outro after this, telling peoplewhere to find, but you've got
so much stuff going on.
I'm going to ask you to do thejob for me.
Where is the best place forlisteners to find out more about
the different things thatyou've talked about today?
And obviously we'll put thelinks in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Yeah, I would just go to probably Instagram, which is
well.
Unsurprisingly, my handle is atUltra Entrepreneur and, yeah,
most things on a link tree linkat the top of that.
But yeah, I kind of I probablyuse Instagram the most.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Brilliant, simon, it's been absolutely fantastic.
Really love talking to you.
I could see we're on a similarsort of wavelength here I think
all three of us.
And yeah, best of luck, andcontinue the amazing work,
brilliant.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
Thanks, very much talk.
So what did you make of thatconversation with simon dent?
Well, we it went in manydirections didn't it?
There was so much to talk aboutand I think, to be honest, we
probably covered maybe 50 ofeverything that he's done and
all the stories that he has totell.
But one of the biggest things,I think, that straight away that
I kind of came away with isthis it's not failure at all,

(01:04:30):
but was it 150 letters that hehad?

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
220.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
220 letters.
Don't know why I got 150.
Which, you know, 220 letters ofessentially rejection, when he
was looking at his law careerand how that maybe has helped
set him up for actually justdoing things and that not having
necessarily that fear offailure, and that came out a
number of times.

(01:04:53):
You know across what he wassaying to us.
What did you?
What did you get?
What was your biggest biggesttakeaway point from from that
conversation?
Well, I.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
I think there's a few big ones, but I actually want
to focus in on what you've justsaid there, because I heard
Arianna Huffington say recentlythat failure is not the opposite
of success.
Failure is the stepping stonetowards success, and I think
that he is a classic example ofthat being the case.

(01:05:23):
I mean, I think that's right.
I think he didn't see failureas, oh, I can't do that, I can't
do it yet, but I'm movingtowards learning how to do that,
or being able to do that.
I think there was a lot oftakeaways.
I think it was I really likedstarting the conversation with
actually like he really learnedthe mental health problem that

(01:05:45):
he had at a time where it wasn'treally being discussed by most
people.
Let's be honest, he got thosetools that allowed him to and
succeed much quicker and muchearlier, because I think he
applied that growth mindset tothe mental well-being piece,
didn't he?
So I thought that wasfascinating, how he basically
threw himself into right.
Well, I need to learn how tobeat this particular problem and

(01:06:08):
, and as far as I could see, ithadn't troubled him since but I
also was going to use it as thislearning opportunity.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
Actually, what can I learn in this time?
Because, let's face it, youwould.
You would never ordinarily.
What can I learn in this time?
Because, let's face it, youwould never ordinarily, in kind
of your working career,necessarily have that space of
time, and maybe in a place whereyou had I mean, he obviously
had loads of other challenges atthat time but where you didn't
have lots of other things goingon around you.
You were away from everythingelse.
So it's really interesting.

(01:06:38):
I thought that he used that aslearning as well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
Yeah, I completely agree.
And then I thought another bigtakeaway for me was how he was
very much of the opinion like ofhenry ford, who was recruit
people that are better than youbecause you then stand on their
shoulders.
You know you stand on theshoulders of giants.
I think that's brilliant.
There's a lot of businessesthat, or business owners that

(01:07:02):
don't want to recruit peoplethat are better than them
because they're worried thatthey'll show them up, whereas
actually the best, bestbusinesses are where business
owners recruit people that arebetter than them in in areas
that they don't have strengthsin.
And I thought it wasinteresting.
The sign was very open.
I mean, we didn't even talk.
We didn't talk much about hismarketing business, his
marketing agency.
We didn't talk at all about hispublishing agency.

(01:07:24):
And when I've heard him speak,by his own admission, he says
like I was not an expert ineither of those subjects, but I
found people that were and I waskind of driving the business.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
Yeah, I loved what he said about you know surrounding
yourself with experts, though Ithink that is so true.
You know, when we apply thatactually into the world of sport
or business, actually beingaround people who are maybe in a
different position to you orbetter than you at this point in
time actually really helps todrive your own growth as well,

(01:07:59):
and I think, certainly from asporting, but also from a
business perspective, that is sohelpful to be around that group
of people well, they say youbecome the average of the five
people you hang out with, don'tthey?

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
so the more you can hone that five people to be an
average you want to be, asopposed to you know, we've we
all know of situations wherewe're hanging out with people
that actually are not taking ouraverage in the wrong direction.
So if you spend more time withthe people that are taking our
average in the right direction,that's really powerful.
But it also reminds me of whatSabrina Pace Humphries talked

(01:08:32):
about when we interviewed herages and ages ago about Fab Five
and having the person that'sbeen there before, the person
that's on the same journey, theperson that is your sort of
truth teller, the person that'syour cheerleader and the tribe
or community.
You know, if you get those fivegroups of people right for each

(01:08:54):
of your different kind of keyareas, then that's really
powerful.
Another thing I loved what he'ddone in terms of the business of
Save Our Souls was I don't knowif you're aware, but tom's
shoes.
I think I can't rememberwhether I mentioned it in the
episode or or after he wasspeaking, but tom's shoes give
away a pair of shoes to to anafrican child every time anyone

(01:09:15):
buys a pair of tom's shoes and Ithought what they were doing
with their plastic offset orsave Our Souls was really
brilliant and I think that makesjust businesses more talkable.
People will remember that stuff.
They'll tell more people aboutit.
So you know we talk inmarketing about making your
business more talkable.
That is a great example of that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
I think there's just so I know I mentioned this, but,
like, if you think about, youknow, know the generations now
coming into the, the workplace,people want to be more
sustainable and so I just Ithink that's also from kind of
that ethos behind sustainability, even if you're using a plastic
product, which they I can'tremember what the percentage you

(01:09:57):
said he got it down to in termsof about 20.
I think it's at 20.
Yeah, no, I, I absolutely agreewith it because it's it is a
nice story behind it that you're, that you're offsetting for
sure, and actually we had areally good conversation about
horrendous feats in marathon desable as well, didn't we?
Off the back of that?

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
yes, so has it put you off or are you super keen to
go?

Speaker 3 (01:10:19):
no, I am absolutely super keen to go actually, but
but I think you know, likeeverything learning, you can't
hold back like throwing yourselfin and doing something like the
marathon to scott.
Disability, you know, push youa little bit, but actually
having knowledge and againhaving people that can, can
support you and help you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
And actually he gave some really good, good advice
there about taping feet andthings and yeah, and we, we,
when we asked him the questionfrom Paul K, we ended up down I
only eat 70% of the food on myplate principle.
I obviously asked you at thetime what you thought, but now,
without him here, what do youthink about?
Because the the thing thatstood out to me was it was just

(01:10:59):
a simple rule.
It's like that's my rule, Istick to it.
And it was just a simple rule.
It was like that's my rule, Istick to it, and it's actually
the simple rules that kind ofoften work the best.
What are your thoughts aroundwhat he said and the simple rule
concept?

Speaker 3 (01:11:11):
Yeah, I think simple, absolutely 100%, I think when
it comes to nutrition, peopleovercomplicate.
So you can overcomplicatesomething, but actually knowing
the science that sits behind itand simplifying it is actually
where people can put things intoplace.
So, actually having theknowledge, then simplifying.
But actually I I use somethingslightly different to that.

(01:11:32):
So I'll actually use a platemodel where you, depending on
the amount of training you'redoing, you use different
percentages, obviously notcalculating, but a fraction of
the plate, so half, threequarters, a third, and actually
that does equate, like,especially if you're working
carbohydrates, to more or lesswhat you need and it doesn't
have to be down the line.
So I do really like that idea.

(01:11:54):
I guess with that would youstill eat 70%, but wouldn't eat
any more, even if you're stillhungry and did lots of training,
and would you then eat 70% andessentially be slightly
overeating if you didn't do asmuch training.
But I like the concept, but Iit got me thinking after the
call.
Actually, you know, do you justthen just use a slightly
smaller plate or a slightlybigger plate?

(01:12:14):
Do you just then say, well, I'monly eating 70%, so I'll fill
my plate less?
Well, maybe it doesn't have thesame, the same effect.
But yeah, I liked, I like theidea.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
I don't like the idea .
I'm just thinking back to beingcycling in Lanzarote a couple
of weeks ago, thinking we werehaving three course breakfast,
lunch and dinner.
So so if it was 70%, I meanlike yeah, I also hate the
concept of wasting food.
Now I'm not sure that he wassaying he was wasting food.
Was he just filling the plate70% as opposed to?

(01:12:46):
But the idea of throwing away30% of food, that just I'm too
type-listed to think about it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
I think and that's where using this idea of almost
like dialing up and dialing downby using a percentage on a
plate is is a much is a betterway to do it if you're training,
because otherwise you youyou're going to be over fueling
or under fueling, um, definitelywhen it comes to to
carbohydrates.
So I think the concept behindit is good, but for me it would

(01:13:13):
be changing the dial of how muchon the plate depending on what
you're doing, and that's stillsuper simple and if you're
sitting here going yes, I needto do more of this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
Have you got any sort of free downloads or any tools
that you have available thatthey can?
They can download yeah,absolutely so.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
We are just uploading a few things to the website, so
I'll be sure to put somethingon around carbohydrates and
plate planning.
Um so, absolutely so.
Watch this space as our newwebsite's launched.
There will be something there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
And just because people just remind people that
are listening in the car whatthe website is that they can get
out from.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
So it's forthdisciplinecom, so forth, as
in the number, thdisciplinecom,and you can download that.
So within the next week itshould be there for you to
download.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
But we obviously put that on the show notes.
Well, another fantasticinterview, really insightful,
and I'm going to be lookingforward to following his.
But I'm going to get one ofthose Well, definitely, with the
discount code.
One of the shoe dryers I thinkthat sounds like money well
spent if it makes your shoeslast longer.
Shoe boots, gloves yeah,definitely, definitely sold on

(01:14:24):
that.
So for everyone listening athome keep on training.

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

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Breaking Free: From Lawyer to Endurance Entrepreneur with Simon Dent

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