September 4, 2024 • 49 mins
Welcome to The Business of Endurance podcast! In today's episode, we have the privilege of hosting Ben Rosario, a powerhouse in the running industry. From his beginnings as an elite athlete to his transformative role as the Executive Director of Hoka Northern Arizona Elite, Ben has a wealth of experience to share. We delve into his inspiring career journey, uncovering insights on fitness, life, business, and health. Ben reveals secrets from his book "Run Like a Pro, Even if You’re Slow," offering practical tips on training, pacing, recovery, and nutrition. We also explore the innovative coaching methods he uses and the unique culture that drives the success of the Hoka NAZ Elite team, and both the importance and challenges that athlete shoe sponsorship poses. Whether you're an aspiring runner, a seasoned athlete, an entrepreneur or someone looking to elevate their endurance game, this episode is packed with invaluable advice and motivation to help you reach new heights.
Highlights:
- An Inspiring Coaching Story
- Training Strategies with Matt Fitzgerald
- Business of Running Teams
- Culture and Coaching Philosophy
- Technology in Running
- Staying Healthy Forever
Links:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I think the problem was that World Athletics wasn't
in front of it.
I don't blame Nike for that.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast.
In today's episode, we have theprivilege of hosting Ben
Rosario, a powerhouse in therunning industry.
From his beginnings as an eliteathlete to his transformative
role as the executive directorof the Hoka Northern Arizona
Elite running team, Ben has awealth of experience to share.
(00:41):
We delve into his inspiringcareer and journey, uncovering
his insights on fitness, life,business and health.
Ben reveals secrets from hisbook Run Like a Pro Even If
You're Slow, which we actuallytouched on when we interviewed
Matt Fitzgerald.
Ben was the person that coachedMatt Fitzgerald to run like a
(01:01):
pro, even if he was slow, and tocreate a PB in the Chicago
Marathon at the age of 47, Ithink it was so.
In this episode, we're alsogoing to explore the innovative
coaching methods he uses and theunique culture that drives the
success of the Hoka NAZ Eliteteam, and both the importance
(01:22):
and the challenges that comewith athlete shoe sponsorship
deals.
You know we'll touch on theconcept of shoe dog and how it
relates to athletes today, whichI found to be a fascinating
conversation.
So, whether you're an aspiringrunner, a seasoned athlete, an
entrepreneur or someone lookingto elevate their endurance game,
(01:42):
this episode is packed full ofinvaluable advice and motivation
to help you reach new heights.
So I know you are going to lovethis conversation with the
incredible Ben Rosario.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So on this episode, ben delves in a little bit more
deeply around practicalsolutions and strategies that
his team has in terms of sleeprecovery, fueling and nutrition.
And if you'd like to be able tofind out a little bit more,
stick around to the end becauseI am going to share with you
(02:19):
something.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
So, ben, welcome to the Business of Endurance
podcast, really looking forwardto chatting to you, and I really
love to start these episodeswith an inspiring story.
I'm going to open the floor foryou and say where do you think
your most inspiring story aroundrunning comes from?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I have told this story before and written about
it.
I was sitting in the back of myrunning store, so I owned
running stores from 2006 to 2012in St Louis, missouri, and so
that was for me.
That was 26 years old to 32years old, and I did that
venture after having run acouple of years, for the
(03:06):
Hanson's Brooks Distance Projectteam is in Michigan, and when I
was in Michigan I had, ofcourse, worked at the shops and
run for the team, but I had alsodone some volunteer coaching at
the middle school level.
I enjoyed it, moved on and didother things, went back to St
Louis and started the stores.
I was sitting in the back of thestore one evening doing some
(03:26):
work on the computer and thephone rang.
It was a young man and heintroduced himself and he said
hi, coach, this is Kevin Liu.
I don't know if you remember me.
You coached me in middle schoolin Michigan in 2003.
I just wanted to look you upand call you and tell you thanks
, because you really got me intorunning.
(03:46):
I'm a senior now, one of thetop runners on my team, and you
had a huge impact on my life.
I just wanted to tell you thatthat was the coolest phone call
I ever received and it was veryinspiring to me and told me that
no matter what I'm doing,whether I'm owning stores or
whatever business venture Ishould always be coaching.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Amazing were whatever business venture I should
always be coaching, Amazing.
It's amazing to get thefeedback as a coach as to how
you've helped inspire somebodyand created their journey for
them To flip that on its head.
Who's the person in your lifethat inspired you the most?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Same thing Kevin was saying.
I think about my high schoolcoach, jim Linares, who I've
actually gone on to write a bookwith about high school cross
country.
But yeah, jim, I met him thefirst day of high school cross
country practice, of course.
Actually, I met him the firstday of practice.
He was my guide.
He had that way about him, thatway of speaking, that way of
commanding 100 boys at the sametime and making you feel special
(04:39):
.
We formed this relationshipover those four years.
That was really special andcontinued through my college
years and to this day he'ssomeone I really respect and I'm
inspired by him still.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It's interesting to me as a Brit listening to this,
because in the US you have a farmore comprehensive approach to
running through school andcollege, don't you?
So I'm just reading Runningwith the Buffaloes, which is
fantastic.
I can't relate it to myupbringing in school.
I'm intrigued to find out moreabout the way British runners
(05:09):
come about as well.
But how does that differ in theUS?
And also, given how muchemphasis goes into that running
world, why doesn't it translateto the US massively dominating
the running field when we'rewatching the Olympics and of
course, they're still doing well, but it doesn't seem
disproportionately better thanTeam GB, for example.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I think you're talking about two different
things when you're talking aboutthe comprehensive nature of
system in the US at the highschool and college level.
I agree part of thatcomprehensive nature is that
it's teaching life lessons andit's giving you this incredible
experience and you're makingfriends and you're learning
about what you're making friendsand you're learning about what
it takes to succeed and you'relearning how to deal with
failure alongside your mates.
(05:50):
Those things are invaluable.
There's a lot more people nottalented enough to make it to
the top level than the few whoare.
The great thing about the USsystem is it's actually very
process-oriented, notoutcome-oriented, because if
you're coaching at some highschool in Missouri or Ohio or
Georgia or wherever it may be,your job is not really to create
(06:10):
the next Olympian.
It's to give these kids awonderful experience.
And at most colleges it's thesame thing, only at the very
highest level of the NCAA thatyour job involves trying to
prepare people for the nextlevel and potentially making it
to the Olympic Games.
Now the second part of yourquestion why are we not
dominating?
Well, it's a big world.
(06:31):
Running is global.
It's not like swimming.
The US gets credit for whatthey do in swimming, but only a
few countries that really put alot of effort into swimming.
So in running, no country isgoing to dominate.
No country is going to dominatebecause it's a global game,
from North America, southAmerica, all of Europe.
I think the US is doing quitewell to get first and third in
the 1500 meters at the OlympicGames.
(06:52):
I think shows that.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, I suppose US athletes have so many more
opportunities like swimming,triathlon, that sort of stuff,
whereas if you grow up in Kenya,ethiopia, botswana, it's
running or running and theemphasis goes into that, so you
are always up against it, aswell as whether it's growing up
at altitude, whether it's beinginspired more by the runners
(07:15):
around you, whether it'sdifferent running.
I suppose it's challengingcompeting against athletes that
have grown up in Kenya andEthiopia, competing against
athletes that have grown up inKenya and Ethiopia.
When you think about that, howmuch of we obviously see
phenomenal success from theKenyan athletes?
How much of that do you thinkis genetics?
(07:35):
How much of that isenvironmental?
Why do we see so much success?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I always reference the book by David Epstein Sports
Gene.
It's an important read, I think.
If you're discussing this topicon any serious level and
haven't read that book, I thinkyou're lacking in potential
knowledge.
There's some level of geneticsinvolved and I think it's
important to recognize thatacross all sorts of sports.
There's a reason that certainpockets of Eastern Europe tend
(08:02):
to be very good at weightliftingor certain body types tend to
be good at the high jump.
There is genetics involved, ofcourse, and I think altitude is
part of that of course, and Ithink the culture is part of it
as well.
At the end of the day, there's alot of variables contributing,
but, like any country, not allKenyans are great at running.
They laugh when that stereotypeis put out there.
(08:25):
Look, I've been to Nairobi.
I didn't see a lot of runnersthere.
It's a pretty concentrated areathat the best runners come from
in Kenya.
It's just one of those things,but I think there's a lot that
goes into it.
Even among those that did growup in the Rift Valley, it's not
like they're all world-classrunners.
A lot of them are, yes, but alot of them aren't.
I don't know.
It's not unlike soccer inEngland right, everybody plays,
(08:46):
but only the select few make itto the very top, and I think
it's the same way in Kenya.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I think, as you say, that's a massive topic, isn't it
?
In terms of genes and potentialand fulfilling.
Moving into your area ofcoaching, we were interviewing
not so long ago Matt Fitzgerald,and we understand from that
conversation and also throughyour book that he spent time
(09:11):
with you and it's always nice tofind out a little bit about
some of the key strategies thatyou worked with with Matt to be
able to improve his performanceand his personal best.
What kind of things did youwork with alongside Matt when he
was spending time with you andyour team?
Is there anything that you cansuggest that maybe amateur
runners can try and implementthemselves?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Sure, I treated him like I treat everybody that I
work with.
At the time I was coachingNorthern Arizona Elite, he asked
to come out and join us and bequote unquote pro for a short
period of time, or live like apro anyway.
And in his theory hishypothesis was if he did
everything right like the pros,he could improve and set a
(09:51):
personal best.
When we sat down it was verymuch like I would sit down with
the pros.
I looked at his traininghistory, his racing history, his
injury history, what he hadbeen doing leading up to where
we were and I met him there.
I think the biggest mistake heand the biggest mistake that
many amateurs make is they set agoal time that tends to be
(10:12):
fairly arbitrary and then theylook up some sort of chart and
they try to immediately begindoing workouts based on that
goal pace.
I told him straight away that'snot what we were going to do.
We were going to train where hewas and build gradually.
Let fitness at the end of thetraining cycle tell us the goal
for the race, not the other wayaround.
Above all, it was the numberone thing I did from a coaching
(10:34):
perspective.
He stayed true to his goal oftrying to live like a pro.
He slept well, he ate well, hedid all the ancillary things
that you need to do to keepyourself healthy, so a lot of
the credit goes to him.
I stayed committed to trainingat the proper paces and that
allowed us to give him morevolume.
There's a snowball that rolls inthe wrong direction when you
(10:54):
make that mistake.
One of the things that happensis you're not able to get as
much work as you probably should, particularly with the marathon
, because if you're doing, let'ssay, mile repeats and you have
this pace that you're trying tohit because some chart tells you
, based on your goal time, butyou can only do five of them, I
would rather see you do 10 ofthem at the correct pace.
(11:14):
The marathon's a long way.
So he was doing workouts thathad more volume to them than he
had ever done before.
Things that seemed crazy onpeople 15 by 1K but if you're
doing it at the right pace, it'snot that crazy of a workout,
and so I think that's what hewould tell you that he learned.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I was thinking.
You know it's reallyinteresting, isn't it, how
people athletes often try andfit themselves into a plan
rather than actually listeningto their body.
I like that approach.
I've heard you talk about goalsversus focus, or had a
conversation about goals versusfocus, and I wonder if that's
what you're talking about tryingto fit into a goal rather than
focusing on the bigger picture.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
The goal should be to get as fit as you can.
The time goal or place goalshould only come about two weeks
before the race.
How can you set a goal, atangible time goal, three months
, four months out from a race?
You have no idea how fit you'regoing to be.
You have no idea what's goingto happen.
You have no idea if you'regoing to get dinged up along the
way.
You have no idea if you'regoing to get sick.
You have no idea what theweather is going to be on race
(12:14):
day.
There's so many things that youcan't possibly know four months
out.
So why set your time goal thatearly?
I think your goal should be toget as fit as you possibly can
and then let that fitness guideyou.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
So many people want to do their first marathon.
It's like, right, I want to besub four, or I've done a few
marathons, I want to be subthree or whatever it is, and I
get having that sort of goal,but also I get having the
process goal of getting as fitas possible, because the outcome
you can't control.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
I'm volunteering with a high school team this fall
just for fun.
We had a goal setting chat andthe boys and girls got separated
and both teams, when they camein and we asked them their goals
, they right away said we wantto win the state meet.
And that's fine and that's agood goal, but there's a lot you
got to do.
Saying it in August means verylittle.
It's what you do.
It's those process orientedgoals.
(13:03):
Get you there.
Through HOKA, I coached a groupof 15 media members and social
media influencers this pastspring for the Big Sur Marathon
and it was the same kind ofconversation I had with each of
them in December.
The race is at the end of Apriland I said right away I really
am not going to promise youanything in terms of an outcome.
I'm just going to write yourtraining, talk to you every week
(13:24):
about your training andcommunicate with you and make
changes as necessary and then,when we get close, we'll set
that time goal.
It worked really well and therewere people who had never run a
step in their life that endedup running under five hours or
under four hours, even for themarathon.
There were others who didn'tthink four hours was possible
and ran four hours on the nose.
(13:46):
What if he had set his goal thisguy I'm thinking of at 420?
That would have been limitinghimself.
Sometimes these goals limitourselves.
Sometimes they are unrealisticand they set us up for failure
and don't allow us to get as fitas we could.
The idea is that these outcomegoals are only a piece of the
puzzle.
Not a bad idea to have them.
Sometimes they get you out ofbed in the morning and that's
good.
But they need to be realistic,flexible, based on how the
(14:08):
training ends up going.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
But I think it's a really important point If you,
even if you want your outcomegoal to be a sub four marathon,
if you're currently running at afour 20 pace, you've got to
train based on the four 20 pace,not the four, because otherwise
you're doing when you'resupposed to be doing zone two,
you're doing zone three and ittotally blows out later on and
you're more likely to getinjured or you can't do the
number of reps and I thinkthat's a mistake.
(14:31):
It sounds really obvious nowthat you've said it and yet I
couldn't see that being possiblewith my current training
program because of the way it'sdesigned.
But I could see that being avery easy mistake I've probably
made earlier on in my career,for sure.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
You're constantly grinding, tired and you feel
stuck in place, stuck in neutralIf you want to get to four
hours, but you're at 420 fitness, doing your workouts based on
that 420 pace.
The workout feel good, right,and you're getting better and
you're recovering.
And then the body tells youit's ready to do some workouts
at 415 pace and then you do themand it's intoxicating and a
(15:05):
great feeling getting betterover the course of the segment.
That's an awesome feeling.
I remember when I ran at theHansons we had this guy, trent
Briney, my roommate.
We were getting ready for the2004 Olympic trials marathon.
Trent, to that point in hiscareer, hadn't done anything
particularly special, neitherhad I.
He was in my group with acouple other guys.
We were the second group, right, the first group was trying to
(15:26):
make the Olympic team.
They were really good aboutthree or four guys in that group
.
This is 2004.
So they were doing theirworkouts at 212 pace, basically,
and we were doing ours at about218 pace and Trent kept getting
fitter and the workouts at 218rhythm were so easy.
So, honestly, with only aboutthree weeks to go, they put him
in with the 212 group and hestarted hitting those workouts
(15:46):
and then in the race he ran 212and got fourth place and I just
think had he been in that groupthe whole time they would have
wore him down.
But because he started offwhere he was able to get to this
higher level.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, I think that's a great lesson for people when
they're starting out.
I want to talk about the sideof business within running.
You obviously run your own shop.
Was it one shop or a chain ofshops?
We ended up having threelocations.
Now you run North Arizona Eliterunning team.
I don't really understand thedynamics of how a running team
works as a business.
So what are the similaritiesand differences between running
(16:21):
a series of shops versus arunning team?
From a business point of view.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think there definitely aresimilarities and differences.
From a structure standpoint,one of the big differences is we
operate this team as anonprofit organization, so we're
able to do that in the USbecause of the Amateur Athletic
Act of 1978.
The sport isn't amateur anymore, but if you are training
Olympians or would-be Olympians,you can operate it as a
(16:48):
nonprofit, and that allowed usat the beginning to apply for
grants that we couldn't havegotten if we were a for-profit
business.
For example, we were awardedgrants from USA Track and Field
Running USA and the RoadrunnersClub of America.
Grants helped get us off theground.
We needed corporate sponsorshipto survive and thrive.
We got that in 2015 from HOKA.
(17:08):
Hoka pays us a lump sum.
From that funding we're able topay staff, rent out our space
here in Flagstaff, we're able topay for travel and pay for
massages and chiropractic workand pay the athletes base
compensation and bonuses.
Top level athletes in the USare valuable to shoe companies
because the US is a huge market.
(17:29):
If you're doing well in the US,you're raising brand awareness
for that shoe company, and sothat's different than the
running store, where we'rerelying on funding from this
company.
As someone who likes control.
I had a little more controlover my own destiny with my
stores because it was afor-profit business and if we
worked as hard as we could,reached as many people as we
(17:50):
could and sold as many shoes aswe could, we were going to do
well.
I felt we had more control inthat sense, but the similarities
were doing the same thing.
Right With the stores, we weretrying to create a community.
We had group runs and we hadraces, races and we had events
that we would host at the store.
We created this sort of socialcommunity around running and
(18:10):
that led to shoe sales.
With the team, we're trying tocreate a fan base through social
media, events and youthprograms.
Both revolve around reachingout to people and creating this
community, this group, thistribe around whatever the entity
is the store back in the dayand then now with the team.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I'm a massive fan of the book Shoe Dog and the Nike
film.
That is, the Jordan film.
How much do you think thatjourney with sponsoring athletes
like Michael Jordan hasinfluenced the way your business
is run?
Speaker 3 (18:43):
It's proof of concept From the moment they signed
Steve Prefontaine.
They proved that athletes towear your brand and promote your
brand and be a brand ambassadorfor you was going to create ROI
.
It was true in the 1970s andit's true today.
You see it at the Olympic Gamesand age of social media,
(19:05):
influencers, et cetera.
There's nothing like performingon the biggest stage on live
television at the highest levelof sport.
Whether it's Cole Hawkerwinning gold medal or LeBron
James winning the NBA title orCaitlin Clark winning the NCAA
title, we understand there'stremendous value in those
(19:27):
moments and the money companiesspend on athletes is worth it.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
It's really interesting to see how that
sponsorship plays out as well.
So, thinking within the worldof business and sport, I wanted
to ask you about the culturewithin your Northern Arizona
elite team.
I've heard you talk aboutculture a couple of times with
different people.
I just wondered if you couldtell us a little bit about what
your culture is like within yourteam and why that really helps
(19:56):
with the success of your team.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Yeah, culture can be overused sometimes as a term and
it can be used incorrectly attimes.
I think culture is notsomething that you write down on
a piece of paper on day one.
Culture is created organicallyover time and in the case of a
sports team, it's created by theathletes.
Really more than anything,Coaches have a role, but
(20:20):
athletes our culture has beendifferent at different times
depending on who the leaders ofthe team have been and what
we're preparing for and just theoverall vibe of the team.
Right now we have 20 athletes abig number.
The culture is one of supportand admiration because we have
an eclectic group.
We have young people out ofcollege doing amazing things on
(20:41):
the track, but we have veteranathletes that have been in the
sport for 15 years, that aremarathoners, and those two don't
have a tremendous amount incommon on the surface, but they
do have a tremendous amount ofadmiration for one another and
they do support one another,even though they may not have
quite the understanding, thedeep understanding, of what it
(21:02):
is that they're going throughindividually.
And when you've got a mom withthree kids, four kids and a
23-year-old guy straight out ofcollege, they don't have a
tremendous amount in commonthey're quick to congratulate
one another after a performance.
They're quick to offer theirempathy after a difficult race.
It's a lot of mutual respectright now, which I think is good
(21:22):
.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So you've just heard ben offer some really powerful
insights on how we can runbetter.
But if you stay till the end ofthis episode, we're going to
get deep and start talking abouthow our cultural leaders can
help motivate us and help usachieve more.
We go deep on one particularleader, so stick around to the
(21:50):
end of the episode, because Benhas got so much more to offer
than just running advice.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And it's really interesting around culture.
As you say, it's often a termthat's overused and it's just
names or something up on thewall that you read.
So I love that flexibility idea.
But what is it that you havedone from a coaching perspective
, in terms of your influence asa coach that has created all
these different cultures, asyou've got different athletes
coming in and out to help themcreate that really supportive
(22:19):
environment?
What do you feel that you do orare doing to create that
environment?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
I founded the team in 2014 with my wife and she
served as our director of opsand I served as the head coach
and everything else for manyyears.
It became overwhelming.
And then, over the last twoyears, I've been focusing on
executive director positions soworking with our sponsors and
trying to improve our branding,et cetera and we have a head
(22:45):
coach now, jack Mulaney, whoreally is in charge of the
coaching.
But, to answer your question,from the perspective of the
eight years that I did serve ashead coach, this is what I
believe.
It doesn't make me right, itdoesn't make me wrong, it's just
.
This is what I believe.
I believe in structure.
The coach needs to believe inthe athletes and the athletes
need to believe in the coach andthey each need to play their
roles.
(23:05):
I tried to create that belief.
I was very confident in myselfand I think that helped the
athletes believe in me and, inturn, then I believed in them
and I think that helped thembelieve in themselves.
If they were someone whostruggled with that, some
already had it right and we justhad a lot of belief in the
program.
Let's believe in the program,let's believe in what we're
doing.
Let's believe in each other.
I always felt that led toconfidence on the starting line
(23:29):
and in the hardest parts of therace.
When you have total belief, youare less likely to have those
negative thoughts during races.
So I was very much aboutcreating total and comprehensive
belief.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
You mentioned nutrition my background as a
performance nutritionist anddietitian.
I'm keen to ask about nutritionIn your book.
When Coaching, what are some ofyour principles in terms of
nutrition, supporting training,supporting health?
Is there anything our listenerstoday could pick up from the
principles you used with yourathletes?
Passion?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I came from a different era where if the
furnace was hot, you could putanything in it from McDonald's
to a couple of beers.
We were different.
I mean things have changed.
I was impressed with theathletes on how seriously they
took their nutrition.
(24:19):
I felt fortunate that we hadathletes that I didn't need to
step in.
I was learning from them.
They did a wonderful jobcooking healthy meals, being
cognizant of getting thenutrients they needed.
I just am amazed about howdifferent things are 20 years
after I was on the Hanson's team.
If I told them anything, it'sthat you know what to do.
(24:42):
Food is fuel and you have tohave fuel to perform at a high
level.
So I don't want any thought ofsacrificing and eliminating
things from your diet.
I think the healthier way tolook at it is to get excited
about what you're putting in.
When we get caught up in whatwe're not.
Oh, I don't drink soda.
(25:03):
That's a bad path to go down.
I love granola, I lovestrawberries, I love quinoa, I
love all the healthy foods.
I think I heard Stephanie Bruceon our team say she eats 90%
healthy, 10% naughty, and that'sfine.
She'll have a glass of wine andshe'll have a cup of ice cream
for dessert.
Most of the time she's eatingsuper good and putting good
(25:25):
things in her tank.
So that's my philosophy, but Iunderstand there's more to it.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
I love that philosophy.
I think you know to balancewhat you're doing and having a
healthy attitude towards fuelingyour body is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I thought it was interesting.
I was listening to anotherpodcast where you and Matt
Fitzgerald were both interviewed.
Matt came into his trainingcamp with you going.
I've read books on food.
I've got this bit sorted.
Training camp with you going.
I've read books on food, I'vegot this bit sorted.
Even he was learning, but itwas from the athlete that he was
rooming with.
That's fascinating.
I think that's a greatprinciple.
Now, as much as Claire likes toask about food, I like to ask
(25:58):
about technology and products.
I couldn't help but befascinated.
I was listening to you talkabout the challenge that you had
when because it was fairly wellknown that hoka were not
releasing as good a shoe as nikewhen we were first getting the
vapor flies and the air fliesand all of all of those coming
out.
They're your sponsor, aren'tthey?
(26:18):
How was that as a business timefor you, where your athletes
are racing with inferiorproducts to other athletes?
But also, where do you thinkthe line we're always looking
for, sort of the marginal gains?
How can you get this better,that better, this better?
Where do you think the lineshould be drawn around shoes?
They can keep getting betterand better and better and better
(26:39):
, but you then see the problemsthat you had versus regulating
it to everyone running in thesame shoe.
Tell me about that.
That's a lot of questions inone.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
First off, I should say you are not wrong.
There was a time when Hoka wasbehind in racing shoes.
We did not feel behind intraining shoes.
We felt like we hadunbelievable training shoes as
good or better than anybody elseFrom 2019 to 2022, when we were
behind in racing shoes, and itreally came to bear in 2020 and
(27:10):
2021.
In 2019, we were definitelybehind Nike, but I don't think
any other brands had caught upto Nike either.
The first moment it becameobvious was the 2020 Olympic
Trials Marathon in the US, wherewe went first, sixth and eighth
on the women's side.
We had a great day on thewomen's side, but we were
fortunate that only one Nikesponsored eighth on the women's
(27:30):
side.
We had a great day on thewomen's side, but we were
fortunate that only oneNike-sponsored athlete on the
women's side that year was ingood form and that was Sally
Kipiego, and she got third.
It didn't affect the women'srace much because other brands
weren't there either.
On the men's side, nike broughttheir new Alpha Flies to
Atlanta and allowed any runnerto wear them if they wanted, and
on the men's side, even if youwere sponsored by another brand,
(27:53):
a lot of the other brands lettheir athletes wear those Nike
shoes, and so our top athlete,scott Fauble, was 12th place,
but he was the second guy not inthose Nike shoes, and the times
those athletes ran on thatcourse blew my mind.
That's when I realized we'reway behind here.
And I'm not saying that Scottwould have made the team.
(28:13):
He also had gotten sick fiveweeks out, but he wouldn't have
been 12th.
I'll tell you that I think whatwe did as a team was healthy
and, I think, was the rightthing to do.
I don't know.
We just moved forward.
We didn't talk about it, wedidn't let it bother us.
We didn't let it bother us, wedidn't complain about it.
We just moved forward.
But as time went on, again, Ithink we've been way fortunate
in 2020, because there wasn'tmuch racing after those trials,
(28:34):
because those trials happened inFebruary and then the world
shut down in March and there waslimited racing in 2020.
Myself, josh Cox and MattHelbig put together a race
called the Marathon Project inDecember 2020.
And Chandler, arizona, was apro-only race for 50 men, 50
women, and in that race, our mengot fourth and fifth or fourth
(28:56):
and sixth, something like that,and they ran 209, but they got
beat by a couple of guys whomore power to them.
I just didn't think they shouldhave gotten beaten by and, of
course, they were wearing theshoes.
So that was another momentwhere it's like man.
And then, when you went into2021, we had tangible moments
where we had a guy run the sametime.
He ran the year before on thesame course against the same
(29:17):
field and in 2019, he had beensecond, I would say by the fall
of 21,.
It was out in the open causingproblems, to their credit.
Hoka realized that, changedcourse and by 2022, by the
spring of 22, we had a reallygood super shoe and boom, we've
been fine ever since.
It was a tough period.
(29:38):
I think the problem was thatWorld Athletics wasn't in front
of it.
I don't blame Nike for that.
Some people do because theyfelt it was underhanded of them
to come up with this technologyand not share it.
But it's not their job.
It's the governing body's jobto police it and set regulations
.
All sports that have technologyinvolved have regulations for
(29:58):
that technology, and theregulations need to stay in
front of the technology.
What we can't have is anotherperiod of time where one brand,
whoever it may be, comes up withsome technology that's far
greater than everybody else andcreates an unfair advantage.
I don't think anybody is askingfor anything but a fair playing
field.
I never wanted Hoka to make uschoose that we're better than
(30:20):
everybody.
I just wanted to be the same,so athletes could decide results
on the field of play, which ishow it should be Moving forward.
I expect technology to continueto improve.
I just want the regulations tobe such that no one can have
that sort of unfair advantageagain.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
On the same plane as technology.
Is there anything that you feelis going to be an absolute
changer in terms of technologyin the running world?
We've got a lot of new AI andwearables.
Is there any data you think issuper useful or something that's
coming to the forefront that'sreally going to help in terms of
from a coaching perspective,but also from a performance
(30:57):
perspective?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
I'm a bit old school, but I don't see anything right
now besides the shoe tech.
The shoe tech was justrecalibrating everything what
times mean, how quickly we canrecover from things, how much
volume we can do in one sessionor in one day.
We're learning all those thingsin real time here.
The watches are fancy, but Idon't see the watches, nor do I
(31:22):
even see lactate thresholdtesting as being a huge part of
what you're seeing.
I think it's the technology andthe intuition of coaches and
athletes to understand how touse it.
It's a boring answer, but myanswer is no See anything that's
a game changer besidestechnology our own human brains
and figuring out how to use thattechnology.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I think it's the interpretation, isn't it?
Having that data, and then whatdo you do with it as well?
What do you think about mentalresilience and mental strength
perspective?
That's not something that youcan wear AI for or certainly
sort of collect data on.
So what have you taught yourathletes over the years, or you
know what's your kind ofthoughts on helping athletes
with mental resilience?
Speaker 3 (32:04):
What's my thought about mental resilience?
It's huge.
The mental side of the sport is.
It can't be overstated howimportant it is.
And I think sometimes coachesare tasked with being something
they're not.
I mean, in a few cases maybethey are, maybe they do have a
psychology degree, but in mostcases they don't.
We're expected to be a sportspsychologist, but I think we get
(32:26):
in trouble when we try to besomething we're not.
We need to be as a motivator.
I think we need to help instillbelief, confidence strategy,
all those things.
But I think when it comes totrue mental health issues, defer
to true mental healthspecialists, and I do think that
mental health specialists havebecome a big part of
professional sport and, likeanything, it's a matter of the
(32:49):
individual athlete and the teamaround them figuring out what's
best for that athlete and ifit's seeing a mental performance
professional, do that.
If that isn't part of what theyneed, then don't do it, and I
wish there was a universalapproach for everyone.
I think we have to figure outwhat's best for each athlete.
(33:15):
At its core in the coach-athleterelationship, there needs to be
belief.
I saw our coach, jack Mullaney,and our athlete, adrian Wilskut
, have total belief in oneanother over the last six months
as Adrian prepared for theOlympic Games and the 10,000
meters.
It was a beautiful thing towatch Anytime Adrian was doing a
workout.
Jack didn't have any doubt inAdrian when he went to the line.
There's total belief, the coachbelieving the athlete believing
in the coach, the athletebelieving in themselves, the
(33:36):
coach believing in themselvesway to 500 to go and finished
10th place and ran a PR and anational record on the biggest
stage.
I think it was a healthy mentalrelationship Adrian had with
his running and training andracing over the last six months.
(33:58):
I do think the coach-athleterelationship was a big part of
that.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
That's one of those things that we're seeing while
the Olympics is going on inParis, and we're seeing these
kind of unbelievableachievements, but also the
interaction between them andtheir coach as well.
Is there a moment in thisOlympics that has just captured
your energy, excitement, justthe moment that stands out for
you?
So far in what's been anincredible Olympics?
(34:23):
It was the men's 1500 meters.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
If you go back to 2021 in Tokyo, jakob Egerbritsen
wins the gold medal in the 1500meters, one of the premier
events in the Olympic games, andthat sort of confirmed what I
think a lot of the insidersalready knew that, and so that's
when you saw people reallydigging into his training and
the training of the Ingebrigtsenbrothers, and that's when you
saw people all over the worldtrying double thresholds,
(34:48):
increasing the volume of theirsessions, using lactate testing
to determine the pace of theirworkouts.
I think all that has been good.
It's helped increaseperformance.
But when you look at the fourguys who went top four there
Hocker, kerr, ingerbritzen andNegus they took different paths,
even though Ingerbritzen, Ithink, in many ways forced
people to think differently.
Cole Hocker, who won the race,doesn't train at altitude, but
(35:11):
he won the gold medals.
He stuck with his college coach, which not everybody does in
the US.
Meanwhile, yara Negus left hiscollege coach and went to a pro
coach and a pro team in Boulder,colorado, at altitude.
Jakob Ingerbrigtsen obviouslywe know what he does and he left
his coach as well his dadthat's another story for another
day.
Kerr, because he was bronze inthat race in 2021, he probably
(35:35):
had the best Hocker, who wassixth.
They were closest toIngerbrigtsen at that time.
They knew what to do to beathim.
That's why they ended upbeating him.
They had the least amount ofwork to do in terms of how they
were training and how they werepreparing.
They just knew they had to getstronger.
They had to get stronger andyou saw that.
You saw Curse at the worldrecord indoors in the two-miler
(35:55):
this year.
You saw Hocker break 13 minutesin the 5,000.
Because they knew even backthen that they were fast enough
to beat this guy, but theyweren't strong enough.
They did what they needed to do.
The bottom line is those guyswho ran the best did what was
best for them.
They doubled down on theirstrengths, stuck with their
system and their path.
They didn't make U-turns,didn't go crazy trying to be
(36:17):
somebody they weren't or trysome new theory.
They made little tweaks to whothey were and it ended up
creating an incredible race.
And that was my big takeaway.
That was that there's more thanone way to do it, but you have
to be calculated.
All of those guys had acalculated approach with their
coach to be ready for that race.
They knew it was going to bethat kind of race.
Those were the guys that didwell, knew what kind of race it
(36:40):
was going to be, whatIngebrigtsen was going to do,
and they prepared accordingly.
That was my big takeaway.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
It was an amazing race and actually, actually,
this brings us back full circleto where we started this
conversation, which was, youknow how we with the goal
setting and controlling thecontrollables, because josh kerr
was very outspoken before thatrace about he was wanting gold,
he was only happy with gold.
Yet after finishing with silverhe was chuffed.
He said look, I've just run anational record.
(37:06):
If you'd offer me that, that'sall I can control.
I did what I could do.
I'm happy with Silver.
So I think it was an incrediblerace and fascinating to hear
more in depth Now.
Within this podcast, we alwayslike to ask for some books that
you found really helpful or findyourself recommending to other
people, other athletes perhaps.
I know you mentioned the SportsGene and Shoe Dog.
(37:27):
Are there any other books,other than your own, of course,
that you find yourselfrecommending regularly to others
?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
It's tough because I am a big reader so I don't.
When I was coaching the teamand the team was a bit smaller,
I used to often, around theholidays, buy everybody a book.
My favorite book is theautobiography of Malcolm X,
because it's just an incrediblestory and an interesting read.
Yeah, but here's someone whogrew up in the poorest, toughest
conditions you could possiblyimagine, made mistakes, ended up
(37:59):
in prison and yet was able tocompletely change his life and
inspire thousands, constantlyevolving his take on the world.
His take on the world the dayhe died was quite different than
it was even two years prior.
It's one of the most Americanstories of all time because he
truly made it from conditions wecould only imagine.
(38:20):
I love that book and I loverecommending it.
He's an underrated Americanfigure and so a lot of people
don't know the story and I feelpeople will find it quite
inspirational.
Nothing to do with sport orrunning, but I just feel they'll
find the story quiteinteresting and quite
inspirational.
As far as books about sport go,geez, it's just so tough because
there's so many differentcategories.
I do love recommending Shoe Dogif you like the business of
(38:42):
sport.
I also like recommending a bookcalled Players by Matt
Futterman, incredible book aboutthe business of sport and
agents and brand sponsorships.
He goes through each sport andhow it found professionalism,
from golf and tennis to runningto, of course, the major sports.
It's awesome.
(39:02):
It's an incredible read Forcoaching.
I love the John McDonnellautobiography.
The training is a bitantiquated but the coaching
style is interesting.
I like Sir Alex Ferguson's bookLeading.
I love books about historicalfigures because we can learn
from leaders' walks of lifepoliticians, businessmen and
women, of course, athletes.
(39:22):
The Ted Turner autobiography isreally fascinating.
There's a lot of sport becausehe was a world-class sailor.
I like recommending books fromdifferent walks of life.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Brilliant, excellent recommendations, most of which
aren't on my reading list orhaven't read.
That will be expanding rapidlyagain.
Thank you very much.
We also get the previous guestto the podcast to ask the next
guest a question without themknowing who that is going to be,
and our previous guest wasanother recommendation, an
introduction from MattFitzgerald actually.
So it was Andrea Burke, meHenkel, the Olympic gold
(39:53):
medalist, and I think Claire'sgot her question.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Andrea asks what are you doing to stay healthy
forever?
Speaker 3 (40:00):
that's good timing for that question.
When I was coaching, I letmyself get unhealthy.
You're so committed to theseathletes and the pressure of
having their hopes and dreams onyour shoulders suffocating.
I didn't sleep well, Ididn'tating.
I didn't sleep well, I didn'teat well, I didn't exercise and
gain weight.
You wake up in your 40s 30pounds, overweight, out of shape
(40:21):
, not eating well, and Irealized you can't keep living
like this.
People don't make it to their80s they die.
I realized I needed to get myact together and currently I
would say one of the reasons Ivolunteered at the local high
school was to be around youngpeople.
Again, being around youngpeople keeps you young.
It also forces me to run everyday because I run with the team.
I haven't necessarily tried tomake a huge effort to eat better
(40:44):
, but when you're running more,it's almost like you crave
better food, and so I feel likeof recent I'm talking, like this
summer I've been eating better.
I think it's a combination ofsurrounding yourself with
youthful, vibrant peopleexercising every day and eating
well.
So it's nothing revolutionary,but that's what I'm trying to do
.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
You become the average of the five people you
hang out with most.
Ultimately, the energy isgiving you youth again by
hanging out with younger people.
Same concept, same concept.
Brilliant Ben, it's beenfascinating, really enjoyed
chatting to you.
Thank you so much.
I wish you every success forthe team going forward, for Team
USA in the Olympics, just aslong as they're not just behind
(41:23):
Team GB.
But no, it's been reallyinteresting, particularly to get
understanding, a betterunderstanding of the world of
business behind the running team.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
We're recording this outro aweek after the Ben Rosario
(41:45):
interview, which was afascinating interview.
But I want to start off bysaying, since we recorded this,
it didn't feel like Team USA wasreally doing that much better
than Team GB relative to thepopulation size, given the
amazing collegiate runningenvironment that they create,
and then, since we recorded that, they seem to have won almost
every track and field medal outthere and made me look like a
(42:07):
fool.
So Team USA absolutely rocked onthe track and field.
It's been incredible.
But also since that time timewe had the conversation about
ingebert not doing his thing inthe 1500, but he did do his
thing in the 5000 meters andabsolutely incredible.
But what did you make of theinterview with ben?
Speaker 1 (42:25):
yeah, it was a fantastic interview.
Some of the insights that hebuilt on actually a bit further
than some of the otherinterviews we've had in terms of
, I think for the whole, notsetting a time for a race but
running at a certain pace thatyou're running at right now and
then getting ready and trainingto that event and then saying,
okay, what am I capable ofachieving, as much as you can
(42:48):
push yourself and the egg whatyou're going to do from a finish
time.
Actually, I think the importantpart that was you could do
better.
I liked that insight and theway he thinks about goals in a
slightly different way.
What did you think from a goalperspective?
Because you're the goals person.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I agree, I think that was really interesting, but I
think it was what I really.
What got me thinking was, it'seasy to say, to set like an
arbitrary goal of I want to do afour-hour marathon or an 11
hour Ironman or 10 hour orwhatever it is, but it's
actually it's just thisarbitrary stake in the ground,
isn't it?
And, like you say, you could dosignificantly better than that.
But the mistake people make isthey go well, I want to do a
(43:22):
four hour marathon.
Therefore, I'm going to run thetraining based on a four hour
marathon time, even though mycurrent time is 420.
So actually much better to dothe training 420 time.
I thought that was reallyinteresting and then actually
you adapt from that trainingbetter and you're more likely to
(43:43):
do your four-hour marathon andless likely to get injured.
So I thought that wasinteresting.
The other part I foundfascinating was the influence of
athletes winning, in particular, shoes and how much it's worth
to companies like Hoka tosponsor teams to put all the
revenue into the team really tocreate those athletes.
What did you make of the wholerunning shoe conversation?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I think it's a side I'd never really thought of, to
be honest, in terms of the waythat he described about all
shoes need to be on a levelplaying ground and actually that
shoe could help you becomefaster.
Every brand needs to have thaton a level playing ground.
So I thought that was reallyinteresting.
So many athletes we've spokento and I think particularly post
(44:20):
COVID more than anything,finding sponsorship appears to
be really difficult now in termsof getting funding.
But the way that he describedthe team that he has and the way
that he's got that funding,that business behind that team,
I thought was fascinating.
What did you think from abusiness perspective?
I thought it was a really didyou think from a business?
Speaker 2 (44:35):
perspective.
I thought it was a reallyinteresting business model, the
non-profit business.
It's entirely, almost entirelyfunded by Hoka and to see that
is investment that's Hokaconsidered to be valuable
investment, that is.
I find it fascinating.
But then when you see I don'tknow if you've seen air the film
(44:55):
about michael jordan, it's onlythe final part of shoe dog,
where they take on michaeljordan the book and there's some
stats in there that I just blewme away.
And when they're striking thisdeal with michael jordan, they
say something along the lines ofokay, we'll give him the deal
that we want.
It's way more than we.
We've never given any athleteanything like this.
And it was something like 25 ofthe sale of the shoes and his
(45:18):
name escapes me, but I thinkit's bill knight.
I think that's right.
That's running.
Nike says what's the worst thatcan happen the most we've ever
sold of a shoe is, let's say, 1million or like 250 000 pairs.
And then a stat comes up in thefirst year they sold something
like 5 million and they're stillpaying Michael Jordan something
(45:41):
like a billion dollars a year.
That's probably slightly morein shared revenue off the back
of this deal, but it's equallymade Nike three times that it's
incredible and you see it andyou go, well, okay, okay, now I
get why hokum see the value indoing things like that.
It is incredible.
So, yeah, I thought it wasreally interesting.
I thought interestingunderstanding how a running team
(46:02):
was funded.
I thought it was interestinghow he took his professional
approach to coaching matt, whowe had on the podcast before.
Great episode with lots oftakeaways and inspiration in
terms of keeping it simple,focusing on training, the the
right way, eating the right way,getting the right amount of
sleep For everyone.
That's listening.
Another awesome episode and, inthe meantime, until the next
(46:23):
one, keep on training.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
So I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that
there were going to be somepractical tips in this episode,
shared by Ben, around realpractical solutions and
strategies that his team havearound their nutrition and their
sleep and their recovery.
And if you'd like a few morepractical tips and you're
struggling with an overwhelm ofinformation out there on social
(46:47):
media, drop us a call.
There's a free call link.
If you look in the show notesbelow and click on the link, you
can book a free discovery callwith me and we can discuss some
real practical solutions to someof your challenges.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto
the Business of Endurancepodcast.
We don't ask for you to pay forus.
We don't ask for patronage.
All we ask for is that yousubscribe to the podcast,
ideally on Apple.
Give us a five star ratingbecause it shows us you care and
, if you've got time, leave us acomment.
One word is fine, somethinglike inspiring or amazing or
(47:25):
something like that, but wereally do appreciate it and it
will help us to continue todeliver amazing guests on what
we hope you find to be anamazing podcast.
Thanks very much.
Jeff and Chloe from Big MooseCharity, we featured in episode
one of season seven, made such agreat impact on the both of us,
(47:48):
we decided to make them ourcharity sponsor for season seven
, and it really touched me inthe sense that I lost my
brother-in-law to suicide inWales and these guys are working
their socks off to help preventsituations like that.
Claire, why did Geoff and Chloereally make an impact on you?
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Coming from a background in clinical nutrition
and working in mental health.
To me also it hit a spot interms of the charity and how
they are building therapy tohelp support people with mental
health.
To me also it hit a spot interms of the charity and how
they are building therapy tohelp support people with mental
health difficulties, and they'vesaved over 50 lives now and
already met their first targetof a million and their new
target, 15 million, that they'retrying to get to.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a
huge target they've setthemselves, but they're speeding
up help that people indesperately in need get, and
this help is needed more thanever and I know how problematic
mental health issues are intoday's world.
So if you think you can helpBig Moose Charity and they're
particularly looking forcorporate partners to help them
(48:52):
raise that 15 million.
If you think you can help themor link them into a company that
can help them the best million,if you think you can help them
or link them into a company thatcan help them, the best place
to go to is bigmoosecharityco oryou can find them on Instagram
as bigmoosecharity, or you caneven email Jeff at
jeffatbigmooseco.
I think the problem was that World Athletics wasn't
in front of it.
I don't blame Nike for that.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast.
In today's episode, we have theprivilege of hosting Ben
Rosario, a powerhouse in therunning industry.
From his beginnings as an eliteathlete to his transformative
role as the executive directorof the Hoka Northern Arizona
Elite running team, Ben has awealth of experience to share.
(00:41):
We delve into his inspiringcareer and journey, uncovering
his insights on fitness, life,business and health.
Ben reveals secrets from hisbook Run Like a Pro Even If
You're Slow, which we actuallytouched on when we interviewed
Matt Fitzgerald.
Ben was the person that coachedMatt Fitzgerald to run like a
(01:01):
pro, even if he was slow, and tocreate a PB in the Chicago
Marathon at the age of 47, Ithink it was so.
In this episode, we're alsogoing to explore the innovative
coaching methods he uses and theunique culture that drives the
success of the Hoka NAZ Eliteteam, and both the importance
(01:22):
and the challenges that comewith athlete shoe sponsorship
deals.
You know we'll touch on theconcept of shoe dog and how it
relates to athletes today, whichI found to be a fascinating
conversation.
So, whether you're an aspiringrunner, a seasoned athlete, an
entrepreneur or someone lookingto elevate their endurance game,
(01:42):
this episode is packed full ofinvaluable advice and motivation
to help you reach new heights.
So I know you are going to lovethis conversation with the
incredible Ben Rosario.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So on this episode, ben delves in a little bit more
deeply around practicalsolutions and strategies that
his team has in terms of sleeprecovery, fueling and nutrition.
And if you'd like to be able tofind out a little bit more,
stick around to the end becauseI am going to share with you
(02:19):
something.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
So, ben, welcome to the Business of Endurance
podcast, really looking forwardto chatting to you, and I really
love to start these episodeswith an inspiring story.
I'm going to open the floor foryou and say where do you think
your most inspiring story aroundrunning comes from?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I have told this story before and written about
it.
I was sitting in the back of myrunning store, so I owned
running stores from 2006 to 2012in St Louis, missouri, and so
that was for me.
That was 26 years old to 32years old, and I did that
venture after having run acouple of years, for the
(03:06):
Hanson's Brooks Distance Projectteam is in Michigan, and when I
was in Michigan I had, ofcourse, worked at the shops and
run for the team, but I had alsodone some volunteer coaching at
the middle school level.
I enjoyed it, moved on and didother things, went back to St
Louis and started the stores.
I was sitting in the back of thestore one evening doing some
(03:26):
work on the computer and thephone rang.
It was a young man and heintroduced himself and he said
hi, coach, this is Kevin Liu.
I don't know if you remember me.
You coached me in middle schoolin Michigan in 2003.
I just wanted to look you upand call you and tell you thanks
, because you really got me intorunning.
(03:46):
I'm a senior now, one of thetop runners on my team, and you
had a huge impact on my life.
I just wanted to tell you thatthat was the coolest phone call
I ever received and it was veryinspiring to me and told me that
no matter what I'm doing,whether I'm owning stores or
whatever business venture Ishould always be coaching.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Amazing were whatever business venture I should
always be coaching, Amazing.
It's amazing to get thefeedback as a coach as to how
you've helped inspire somebodyand created their journey for
them To flip that on its head.
Who's the person in your lifethat inspired you the most?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Same thing Kevin was saying.
I think about my high schoolcoach, jim Linares, who I've
actually gone on to write a bookwith about high school cross
country.
But yeah, jim, I met him thefirst day of high school cross
country practice, of course.
Actually, I met him the firstday of practice.
He was my guide.
He had that way about him, thatway of speaking, that way of
commanding 100 boys at the sametime and making you feel special
(04:39):
.
We formed this relationshipover those four years.
That was really special andcontinued through my college
years and to this day he'ssomeone I really respect and I'm
inspired by him still.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It's interesting to me as a Brit listening to this,
because in the US you have a farmore comprehensive approach to
running through school andcollege, don't you?
So I'm just reading Runningwith the Buffaloes, which is
fantastic.
I can't relate it to myupbringing in school.
I'm intrigued to find out moreabout the way British runners
(05:09):
come about as well.
But how does that differ in theUS?
And also, given how muchemphasis goes into that running
world, why doesn't it translateto the US massively dominating
the running field when we'rewatching the Olympics and of
course, they're still doing well, but it doesn't seem
disproportionately better thanTeam GB, for example.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
I think you're talking about two different
things when you're talking aboutthe comprehensive nature of
system in the US at the highschool and college level.
I agree part of thatcomprehensive nature is that
it's teaching life lessons andit's giving you this incredible
experience and you're makingfriends and you're learning
about what you're making friendsand you're learning about what
it takes to succeed and you'relearning how to deal with
failure alongside your mates.
(05:50):
Those things are invaluable.
There's a lot more people nottalented enough to make it to
the top level than the few whoare.
The great thing about the USsystem is it's actually very
process-oriented, notoutcome-oriented, because if
you're coaching at some highschool in Missouri or Ohio or
Georgia or wherever it may be,your job is not really to create
(06:10):
the next Olympian.
It's to give these kids awonderful experience.
And at most colleges it's thesame thing, only at the very
highest level of the NCAA thatyour job involves trying to
prepare people for the nextlevel and potentially making it
to the Olympic Games.
Now the second part of yourquestion why are we not
dominating?
Well, it's a big world.
(06:31):
Running is global.
It's not like swimming.
The US gets credit for whatthey do in swimming, but only a
few countries that really put alot of effort into swimming.
So in running, no country isgoing to dominate.
No country is going to dominatebecause it's a global game,
from North America, southAmerica, all of Europe.
I think the US is doing quitewell to get first and third in
the 1500 meters at the OlympicGames.
(06:52):
I think shows that.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, I suppose US athletes have so many more
opportunities like swimming,triathlon, that sort of stuff,
whereas if you grow up in Kenya,ethiopia, botswana, it's
running or running and theemphasis goes into that, so you
are always up against it, aswell as whether it's growing up
at altitude, whether it's beinginspired more by the runners
(07:15):
around you, whether it'sdifferent running.
I suppose it's challengingcompeting against athletes that
have grown up in Kenya andEthiopia, competing against
athletes that have grown up inKenya and Ethiopia.
When you think about that, howmuch of we obviously see
phenomenal success from theKenyan athletes?
How much of that do you thinkis genetics?
(07:35):
How much of that isenvironmental?
Why do we see so much success?
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I always reference the book by David Epstein Sports
Gene.
It's an important read, I think.
If you're discussing this topicon any serious level and
haven't read that book, I thinkyou're lacking in potential
knowledge.
There's some level of geneticsinvolved and I think it's
important to recognize thatacross all sorts of sports.
There's a reason that certainpockets of Eastern Europe tend
(08:02):
to be very good at weightliftingor certain body types tend to
be good at the high jump.
There is genetics involved, ofcourse, and I think altitude is
part of that of course, and Ithink the culture is part of it
as well.
At the end of the day, there's alot of variables contributing,
but, like any country, not allKenyans are great at running.
They laugh when that stereotypeis put out there.
(08:25):
Look, I've been to Nairobi.
I didn't see a lot of runnersthere.
It's a pretty concentrated areathat the best runners come from
in Kenya.
It's just one of those things,but I think there's a lot that
goes into it.
Even among those that did growup in the Rift Valley, it's not
like they're all world-classrunners.
A lot of them are, yes, but alot of them aren't.
I don't know.
It's not unlike soccer inEngland right, everybody plays,
(08:46):
but only the select few make itto the very top, and I think
it's the same way in Kenya.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I think, as you say, that's a massive topic, isn't it
?
In terms of genes and potentialand fulfilling.
Moving into your area ofcoaching, we were interviewing
not so long ago Matt Fitzgerald,and we understand from that
conversation and also throughyour book that he spent time
(09:11):
with you and it's always nice tofind out a little bit about
some of the key strategies thatyou worked with with Matt to be
able to improve his performanceand his personal best.
What kind of things did youwork with alongside Matt when he
was spending time with you andyour team?
Is there anything that you cansuggest that maybe amateur
runners can try and implementthemselves?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Sure, I treated him like I treat everybody that I
work with.
At the time I was coachingNorthern Arizona Elite, he asked
to come out and join us and bequote unquote pro for a short
period of time, or live like apro anyway.
And in his theory hishypothesis was if he did
everything right like the pros,he could improve and set a
(09:51):
personal best.
When we sat down it was verymuch like I would sit down with
the pros.
I looked at his traininghistory, his racing history, his
injury history, what he hadbeen doing leading up to where
we were and I met him there.
I think the biggest mistake heand the biggest mistake that
many amateurs make is they set agoal time that tends to be
(10:12):
fairly arbitrary and then theylook up some sort of chart and
they try to immediately begindoing workouts based on that
goal pace.
I told him straight away that'snot what we were going to do.
We were going to train where hewas and build gradually.
Let fitness at the end of thetraining cycle tell us the goal
for the race, not the other wayaround.
Above all, it was the numberone thing I did from a coaching
(10:34):
perspective.
He stayed true to his goal oftrying to live like a pro.
He slept well, he ate well, hedid all the ancillary things
that you need to do to keepyourself healthy, so a lot of
the credit goes to him.
I stayed committed to trainingat the proper paces and that
allowed us to give him morevolume.
There's a snowball that rolls inthe wrong direction when you
(10:54):
make that mistake.
One of the things that happensis you're not able to get as
much work as you probably should, particularly with the marathon
, because if you're doing, let'ssay, mile repeats and you have
this pace that you're trying tohit because some chart tells you
, based on your goal time, butyou can only do five of them, I
would rather see you do 10 ofthem at the correct pace.
(11:14):
The marathon's a long way.
So he was doing workouts thathad more volume to them than he
had ever done before.
Things that seemed crazy onpeople 15 by 1K but if you're
doing it at the right pace, it'snot that crazy of a workout,
and so I think that's what hewould tell you that he learned.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I was thinking.
You know it's reallyinteresting, isn't it, how
people athletes often try andfit themselves into a plan
rather than actually listeningto their body.
I like that approach.
I've heard you talk about goalsversus focus, or had a
conversation about goals versusfocus, and I wonder if that's
what you're talking about tryingto fit into a goal rather than
focusing on the bigger picture.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
The goal should be to get as fit as you can.
The time goal or place goalshould only come about two weeks
before the race.
How can you set a goal, atangible time goal, three months
, four months out from a race?
You have no idea how fit you'regoing to be.
You have no idea what's goingto happen.
You have no idea if you'regoing to get dinged up along the
way.
You have no idea if you'regoing to get sick.
You have no idea what theweather is going to be on race
(12:14):
day.
There's so many things that youcan't possibly know four months
out.
So why set your time goal thatearly?
I think your goal should be toget as fit as you possibly can
and then let that fitness guideyou.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
So many people want to do their first marathon.
It's like, right, I want to besub four, or I've done a few
marathons, I want to be subthree or whatever it is, and I
get having that sort of goal,but also I get having the
process goal of getting as fitas possible, because the outcome
you can't control.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
I'm volunteering with a high school team this fall
just for fun.
We had a goal setting chat andthe boys and girls got separated
and both teams, when they camein and we asked them their goals
, they right away said we wantto win the state meet.
And that's fine and that's agood goal, but there's a lot you
got to do.
Saying it in August means verylittle.
It's what you do.
It's those process orientedgoals.
(13:03):
Get you there.
Through HOKA, I coached a groupof 15 media members and social
media influencers this pastspring for the Big Sur Marathon
and it was the same kind ofconversation I had with each of
them in December.
The race is at the end of Apriland I said right away I really
am not going to promise youanything in terms of an outcome.
I'm just going to write yourtraining, talk to you every week
(13:24):
about your training andcommunicate with you and make
changes as necessary and then,when we get close, we'll set
that time goal.
It worked really well and therewere people who had never run a
step in their life that endedup running under five hours or
under four hours, even for themarathon.
There were others who didn'tthink four hours was possible
and ran four hours on the nose.
(13:46):
What if he had set his goal thisguy I'm thinking of at 420?
That would have been limitinghimself.
Sometimes these goals limitourselves.
Sometimes they are unrealisticand they set us up for failure
and don't allow us to get as fitas we could.
The idea is that these outcomegoals are only a piece of the
puzzle.
Not a bad idea to have them.
Sometimes they get you out ofbed in the morning and that's
good.
But they need to be realistic,flexible, based on how the
(14:08):
training ends up going.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
But I think it's a really important point If you,
even if you want your outcomegoal to be a sub four marathon,
if you're currently running at afour 20 pace, you've got to
train based on the four 20 pace,not the four, because otherwise
you're doing when you'resupposed to be doing zone two,
you're doing zone three and ittotally blows out later on and
you're more likely to getinjured or you can't do the
number of reps and I thinkthat's a mistake.
(14:31):
It sounds really obvious nowthat you've said it and yet I
couldn't see that being possiblewith my current training
program because of the way it'sdesigned.
But I could see that being avery easy mistake I've probably
made earlier on in my career,for sure.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
You're constantly grinding, tired and you feel
stuck in place, stuck in neutralIf you want to get to four
hours, but you're at 420 fitness, doing your workouts based on
that 420 pace.
The workout feel good, right,and you're getting better and
you're recovering.
And then the body tells youit's ready to do some workouts
at 415 pace and then you do themand it's intoxicating and a
(15:05):
great feeling getting betterover the course of the segment.
That's an awesome feeling.
I remember when I ran at theHansons we had this guy, trent
Briney, my roommate.
We were getting ready for the2004 Olympic trials marathon.
Trent, to that point in hiscareer, hadn't done anything
particularly special, neitherhad I.
He was in my group with acouple other guys.
We were the second group, right, the first group was trying to
(15:26):
make the Olympic team.
They were really good aboutthree or four guys in that group
.
This is 2004.
So they were doing theirworkouts at 212 pace, basically,
and we were doing ours at about218 pace and Trent kept getting
fitter and the workouts at 218rhythm were so easy.
So, honestly, with only aboutthree weeks to go, they put him
in with the 212 group and hestarted hitting those workouts
(15:46):
and then in the race he ran 212and got fourth place and I just
think had he been in that groupthe whole time they would have
wore him down.
But because he started offwhere he was able to get to this
higher level.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, I think that's a great lesson for people when
they're starting out.
I want to talk about the sideof business within running.
You obviously run your own shop.
Was it one shop or a chain ofshops?
We ended up having threelocations.
Now you run North Arizona Eliterunning team.
I don't really understand thedynamics of how a running team
works as a business.
So what are the similaritiesand differences between running
(16:21):
a series of shops versus arunning team?
From a business point of view.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think there definitely aresimilarities and differences.
From a structure standpoint,one of the big differences is we
operate this team as anonprofit organization, so we're
able to do that in the USbecause of the Amateur Athletic
Act of 1978.
The sport isn't amateur anymore, but if you are training
Olympians or would-be Olympians,you can operate it as a
(16:48):
nonprofit, and that allowed usat the beginning to apply for
grants that we couldn't havegotten if we were a for-profit
business.
For example, we were awardedgrants from USA Track and Field
Running USA and the RoadrunnersClub of America.
Grants helped get us off theground.
We needed corporate sponsorshipto survive and thrive.
We got that in 2015 from HOKA.
(17:08):
Hoka pays us a lump sum.
From that funding we're able topay staff, rent out our space
here in Flagstaff, we're able topay for travel and pay for
massages and chiropractic workand pay the athletes base
compensation and bonuses.
Top level athletes in the USare valuable to shoe companies
because the US is a huge market.
(17:29):
If you're doing well in the US,you're raising brand awareness
for that shoe company, and sothat's different than the
running store, where we'rerelying on funding from this
company.
As someone who likes control.
I had a little more controlover my own destiny with my
stores because it was afor-profit business and if we
worked as hard as we could,reached as many people as we
(17:50):
could and sold as many shoes aswe could, we were going to do
well.
I felt we had more control inthat sense, but the similarities
were doing the same thing.
Right With the stores, we weretrying to create a community.
We had group runs and we hadraces, races and we had events
that we would host at the store.
We created this sort of socialcommunity around running and
(18:10):
that led to shoe sales.
With the team, we're trying tocreate a fan base through social
media, events and youthprograms.
Both revolve around reachingout to people and creating this
community, this group, thistribe around whatever the entity
is the store back in the dayand then now with the team.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I'm a massive fan of the book Shoe Dog and the Nike
film.
That is, the Jordan film.
How much do you think thatjourney with sponsoring athletes
like Michael Jordan hasinfluenced the way your business
is run?
Speaker 3 (18:43):
It's proof of concept From the moment they signed
Steve Prefontaine.
They proved that athletes towear your brand and promote your
brand and be a brand ambassadorfor you was going to create ROI
.
It was true in the 1970s andit's true today.
You see it at the Olympic Gamesand age of social media,
(19:05):
influencers, et cetera.
There's nothing like performingon the biggest stage on live
television at the highest levelof sport.
Whether it's Cole Hawkerwinning gold medal or LeBron
James winning the NBA title orCaitlin Clark winning the NCAA
title, we understand there'stremendous value in those
(19:27):
moments and the money companiesspend on athletes is worth it.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
It's really interesting to see how that
sponsorship plays out as well.
So, thinking within the worldof business and sport, I wanted
to ask you about the culturewithin your Northern Arizona
elite team.
I've heard you talk aboutculture a couple of times with
different people.
I just wondered if you couldtell us a little bit about what
your culture is like within yourteam and why that really helps
(19:56):
with the success of your team.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Yeah, culture can be overused sometimes as a term and
it can be used incorrectly attimes.
I think culture is notsomething that you write down on
a piece of paper on day one.
Culture is created organicallyover time and in the case of a
sports team, it's created by theathletes.
Really more than anything,Coaches have a role, but
(20:20):
athletes our culture has beendifferent at different times
depending on who the leaders ofthe team have been and what
we're preparing for and just theoverall vibe of the team.
Right now we have 20 athletes abig number.
The culture is one of supportand admiration because we have
an eclectic group.
We have young people out ofcollege doing amazing things on
(20:41):
the track, but we have veteranathletes that have been in the
sport for 15 years, that aremarathoners, and those two don't
have a tremendous amount incommon on the surface, but they
do have a tremendous amount ofadmiration for one another and
they do support one another,even though they may not have
quite the understanding, thedeep understanding, of what it
(21:02):
is that they're going throughindividually.
And when you've got a mom withthree kids, four kids and a
23-year-old guy straight out ofcollege, they don't have a
tremendous amount in commonthey're quick to congratulate
one another after a performance.
They're quick to offer theirempathy after a difficult race.
It's a lot of mutual respectright now, which I think is good
(21:22):
.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So you've just heard ben offer some really powerful
insights on how we can runbetter.
But if you stay till the end ofthis episode, we're going to
get deep and start talking abouthow our cultural leaders can
help motivate us and help usachieve more.
We go deep on one particularleader, so stick around to the
(21:50):
end of the episode, because Benhas got so much more to offer
than just running advice.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And it's really interesting around culture.
As you say, it's often a termthat's overused and it's just
names or something up on thewall that you read.
So I love that flexibility idea.
But what is it that you havedone from a coaching perspective
, in terms of your influence asa coach that has created all
these different cultures, asyou've got different athletes
coming in and out to help themcreate that really supportive
(22:19):
environment?
What do you feel that you do orare doing to create that
environment?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
I founded the team in 2014 with my wife and she
served as our director of opsand I served as the head coach
and everything else for manyyears.
It became overwhelming.
And then, over the last twoyears, I've been focusing on
executive director positions soworking with our sponsors and
trying to improve our branding,et cetera and we have a head
(22:45):
coach now, jack Mulaney, whoreally is in charge of the
coaching.
But, to answer your question,from the perspective of the
eight years that I did serve ashead coach, this is what I
believe.
It doesn't make me right, itdoesn't make me wrong, it's just
.
This is what I believe.
I believe in structure.
The coach needs to believe inthe athletes and the athletes
need to believe in the coach andthey each need to play their
roles.
(23:05):
I tried to create that belief.
I was very confident in myselfand I think that helped the
athletes believe in me and, inturn, then I believed in them
and I think that helped thembelieve in themselves.
If they were someone whostruggled with that, some
already had it right and we justhad a lot of belief in the
program.
Let's believe in the program,let's believe in what we're
doing.
Let's believe in each other.
I always felt that led toconfidence on the starting line
(23:29):
and in the hardest parts of therace.
When you have total belief, youare less likely to have those
negative thoughts during races.
So I was very much aboutcreating total and comprehensive
belief.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
You mentioned nutrition my background as a
performance nutritionist anddietitian.
I'm keen to ask about nutritionIn your book.
When Coaching, what are some ofyour principles in terms of
nutrition, supporting training,supporting health?
Is there anything our listenerstoday could pick up from the
principles you used with yourathletes?
Passion?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I came from a different era where if the
furnace was hot, you could putanything in it from McDonald's
to a couple of beers.
We were different.
I mean things have changed.
I was impressed with theathletes on how seriously they
took their nutrition.
(24:19):
I felt fortunate that we hadathletes that I didn't need to
step in.
I was learning from them.
They did a wonderful jobcooking healthy meals, being
cognizant of getting thenutrients they needed.
I just am amazed about howdifferent things are 20 years
after I was on the Hanson's team.
If I told them anything, it'sthat you know what to do.
(24:42):
Food is fuel and you have tohave fuel to perform at a high
level.
So I don't want any thought ofsacrificing and eliminating
things from your diet.
I think the healthier way tolook at it is to get excited
about what you're putting in.
When we get caught up in whatwe're not.
Oh, I don't drink soda.
(25:03):
That's a bad path to go down.
I love granola, I lovestrawberries, I love quinoa, I
love all the healthy foods.
I think I heard Stephanie Bruceon our team say she eats 90%
healthy, 10% naughty, and that'sfine.
She'll have a glass of wine andshe'll have a cup of ice cream
for dessert.
Most of the time she's eatingsuper good and putting good
(25:25):
things in her tank.
So that's my philosophy, but Iunderstand there's more to it.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
I love that philosophy.
I think you know to balancewhat you're doing and having a
healthy attitude towards fuelingyour body is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I thought it was interesting.
I was listening to anotherpodcast where you and Matt
Fitzgerald were both interviewed.
Matt came into his trainingcamp with you going.
I've read books on food.
I've got this bit sorted.
Training camp with you going.
I've read books on food, I'vegot this bit sorted.
Even he was learning, but itwas from the athlete that he was
rooming with.
That's fascinating.
I think that's a greatprinciple.
Now, as much as Claire likes toask about food, I like to ask
(25:58):
about technology and products.
I couldn't help but befascinated.
I was listening to you talkabout the challenge that you had
when because it was fairly wellknown that hoka were not
releasing as good a shoe as nikewhen we were first getting the
vapor flies and the air fliesand all of all of those coming
out.
They're your sponsor, aren'tthey?
(26:18):
How was that as a business timefor you, where your athletes
are racing with inferiorproducts to other athletes?
But also, where do you thinkthe line we're always looking
for, sort of the marginal gains?
How can you get this better,that better, this better?
Where do you think the lineshould be drawn around shoes?
They can keep getting betterand better and better and better
(26:39):
, but you then see the problemsthat you had versus regulating
it to everyone running in thesame shoe.
Tell me about that.
That's a lot of questions inone.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
First off, I should say you are not wrong.
There was a time when Hoka wasbehind in racing shoes.
We did not feel behind intraining shoes.
We felt like we hadunbelievable training shoes as
good or better than anybody elseFrom 2019 to 2022, when we were
behind in racing shoes, and itreally came to bear in 2020 and
(27:10):
2021.
In 2019, we were definitelybehind Nike, but I don't think
any other brands had caught upto Nike either.
The first moment it becameobvious was the 2020 Olympic
Trials Marathon in the US, wherewe went first, sixth and eighth
on the women's side.
We had a great day on thewomen's side, but we were
fortunate that only one Nikesponsored eighth on the women's
(27:30):
side.
We had a great day on thewomen's side, but we were
fortunate that only oneNike-sponsored athlete on the
women's side that year was ingood form and that was Sally
Kipiego, and she got third.
It didn't affect the women'srace much because other brands
weren't there either.
On the men's side, nike broughttheir new Alpha Flies to
Atlanta and allowed any runnerto wear them if they wanted, and
on the men's side, even if youwere sponsored by another brand,
(27:53):
a lot of the other brands lettheir athletes wear those Nike
shoes, and so our top athlete,scott Fauble, was 12th place,
but he was the second guy not inthose Nike shoes, and the times
those athletes ran on thatcourse blew my mind.
That's when I realized we'reway behind here.
And I'm not saying that Scottwould have made the team.
(28:13):
He also had gotten sick fiveweeks out, but he wouldn't have
been 12th.
I'll tell you that I think whatwe did as a team was healthy
and, I think, was the rightthing to do.
I don't know.
We just moved forward.
We didn't talk about it, wedidn't let it bother us.
We didn't let it bother us, wedidn't complain about it.
We just moved forward.
But as time went on, again, Ithink we've been way fortunate
in 2020, because there wasn'tmuch racing after those trials,
(28:34):
because those trials happened inFebruary and then the world
shut down in March and there waslimited racing in 2020.
Myself, josh Cox and MattHelbig put together a race
called the Marathon Project inDecember 2020.
And Chandler, arizona, was apro-only race for 50 men, 50
women, and in that race, our mengot fourth and fifth or fourth
(28:56):
and sixth, something like that,and they ran 209, but they got
beat by a couple of guys whomore power to them.
I just didn't think they shouldhave gotten beaten by and, of
course, they were wearing theshoes.
So that was another momentwhere it's like man.
And then, when you went into2021, we had tangible moments
where we had a guy run the sametime.
He ran the year before on thesame course against the same
(29:17):
field and in 2019, he had beensecond, I would say by the fall
of 21,.
It was out in the open causingproblems, to their credit.
Hoka realized that, changedcourse and by 2022, by the
spring of 22, we had a reallygood super shoe and boom, we've
been fine ever since.
It was a tough period.
(29:38):
I think the problem was thatWorld Athletics wasn't in front
of it.
I don't blame Nike for that.
Some people do because theyfelt it was underhanded of them
to come up with this technologyand not share it.
But it's not their job.
It's the governing body's jobto police it and set regulations
.
All sports that have technologyinvolved have regulations for
(29:58):
that technology, and theregulations need to stay in
front of the technology.
What we can't have is anotherperiod of time where one brand,
whoever it may be, comes up withsome technology that's far
greater than everybody else andcreates an unfair advantage.
I don't think anybody is askingfor anything but a fair playing
field.
I never wanted Hoka to make uschoose that we're better than
(30:20):
everybody.
I just wanted to be the same,so athletes could decide results
on the field of play, which ishow it should be Moving forward.
I expect technology to continueto improve.
I just want the regulations tobe such that no one can have
that sort of unfair advantageagain.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
On the same plane as technology.
Is there anything that you feelis going to be an absolute
changer in terms of technologyin the running world?
We've got a lot of new AI andwearables.
Is there any data you think issuper useful or something that's
coming to the forefront that'sreally going to help in terms of
from a coaching perspective,but also from a performance
(30:57):
perspective?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
I'm a bit old school, but I don't see anything right
now besides the shoe tech.
The shoe tech was justrecalibrating everything what
times mean, how quickly we canrecover from things, how much
volume we can do in one sessionor in one day.
We're learning all those thingsin real time here.
The watches are fancy, but Idon't see the watches, nor do I
(31:22):
even see lactate thresholdtesting as being a huge part of
what you're seeing.
I think it's the technology andthe intuition of coaches and
athletes to understand how touse it.
It's a boring answer, but myanswer is no See anything that's
a game changer besidestechnology our own human brains
and figuring out how to use thattechnology.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I think it's the interpretation, isn't it?
Having that data, and then whatdo you do with it as well?
What do you think about mentalresilience and mental strength
perspective?
That's not something that youcan wear AI for or certainly
sort of collect data on.
So what have you taught yourathletes over the years, or you
know what's your kind ofthoughts on helping athletes
with mental resilience?
Speaker 3 (32:04):
What's my thought about mental resilience?
It's huge.
The mental side of the sport is.
It can't be overstated howimportant it is.
And I think sometimes coachesare tasked with being something
they're not.
I mean, in a few cases maybethey are, maybe they do have a
psychology degree, but in mostcases they don't.
We're expected to be a sportspsychologist, but I think we get
(32:26):
in trouble when we try to besomething we're not.
We need to be as a motivator.
I think we need to help instillbelief, confidence strategy,
all those things.
But I think when it comes totrue mental health issues, defer
to true mental healthspecialists, and I do think that
mental health specialists havebecome a big part of
professional sport and, likeanything, it's a matter of the
(32:49):
individual athlete and the teamaround them figuring out what's
best for that athlete and ifit's seeing a mental performance
professional, do that.
If that isn't part of what theyneed, then don't do it, and I
wish there was a universalapproach for everyone.
I think we have to figure outwhat's best for each athlete.
(33:15):
At its core in the coach-athleterelationship, there needs to be
belief.
I saw our coach, jack Mullaney,and our athlete, adrian Wilskut
, have total belief in oneanother over the last six months
as Adrian prepared for theOlympic Games and the 10,000
meters.
It was a beautiful thing towatch Anytime Adrian was doing a
workout.
Jack didn't have any doubt inAdrian when he went to the line.
There's total belief, the coachbelieving the athlete believing
in the coach, the athletebelieving in themselves, the
(33:36):
coach believing in themselvesway to 500 to go and finished
10th place and ran a PR and anational record on the biggest
stage.
I think it was a healthy mentalrelationship Adrian had with
his running and training andracing over the last six months.
(33:58):
I do think the coach-athleterelationship was a big part of
that.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
That's one of those things that we're seeing while
the Olympics is going on inParis, and we're seeing these
kind of unbelievableachievements, but also the
interaction between them andtheir coach as well.
Is there a moment in thisOlympics that has just captured
your energy, excitement, justthe moment that stands out for
you?
So far in what's been anincredible Olympics?
(34:23):
It was the men's 1500 meters.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
If you go back to 2021 in Tokyo, jakob Egerbritsen
wins the gold medal in the 1500meters, one of the premier
events in the Olympic games, andthat sort of confirmed what I
think a lot of the insidersalready knew that, and so that's
when you saw people reallydigging into his training and
the training of the Ingebrigtsenbrothers, and that's when you
saw people all over the worldtrying double thresholds,
(34:48):
increasing the volume of theirsessions, using lactate testing
to determine the pace of theirworkouts.
I think all that has been good.
It's helped increaseperformance.
But when you look at the fourguys who went top four there
Hocker, kerr, ingerbritzen andNegus they took different paths,
even though Ingerbritzen, Ithink, in many ways forced
people to think differently.
Cole Hocker, who won the race,doesn't train at altitude, but
(35:11):
he won the gold medals.
He stuck with his college coach, which not everybody does in
the US.
Meanwhile, yara Negus left hiscollege coach and went to a pro
coach and a pro team in Boulder,colorado, at altitude.
Jakob Ingerbrigtsen obviouslywe know what he does and he left
his coach as well his dadthat's another story for another
day.
Kerr, because he was bronze inthat race in 2021, he probably
(35:35):
had the best Hocker, who wassixth.
They were closest toIngerbrigtsen at that time.
They knew what to do to beathim.
That's why they ended upbeating him.
They had the least amount ofwork to do in terms of how they
were training and how they werepreparing.
They just knew they had to getstronger.
They had to get stronger andyou saw that.
You saw Curse at the worldrecord indoors in the two-miler
(35:55):
this year.
You saw Hocker break 13 minutesin the 5,000.
Because they knew even backthen that they were fast enough
to beat this guy, but theyweren't strong enough.
They did what they needed to do.
The bottom line is those guyswho ran the best did what was
best for them.
They doubled down on theirstrengths, stuck with their
system and their path.
They didn't make U-turns,didn't go crazy trying to be
(36:17):
somebody they weren't or trysome new theory.
They made little tweaks to whothey were and it ended up
creating an incredible race.
And that was my big takeaway.
That was that there's more thanone way to do it, but you have
to be calculated.
All of those guys had acalculated approach with their
coach to be ready for that race.
They knew it was going to bethat kind of race.
Those were the guys that didwell, knew what kind of race it
(36:40):
was going to be, whatIngebrigtsen was going to do,
and they prepared accordingly.
That was my big takeaway.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
It was an amazing race and actually, actually,
this brings us back full circleto where we started this
conversation, which was, youknow how we with the goal
setting and controlling thecontrollables, because josh kerr
was very outspoken before thatrace about he was wanting gold,
he was only happy with gold.
Yet after finishing with silverhe was chuffed.
He said look, I've just run anational record.
(37:06):
If you'd offer me that, that'sall I can control.
I did what I could do.
I'm happy with Silver.
So I think it was an incrediblerace and fascinating to hear
more in depth Now.
Within this podcast, we alwayslike to ask for some books that
you found really helpful or findyourself recommending to other
people, other athletes perhaps.
I know you mentioned the SportsGene and Shoe Dog.
(37:27):
Are there any other books,other than your own, of course,
that you find yourselfrecommending regularly to others
?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
It's tough because I am a big reader so I don't.
When I was coaching the teamand the team was a bit smaller,
I used to often, around theholidays, buy everybody a book.
My favorite book is theautobiography of Malcolm X,
because it's just an incrediblestory and an interesting read.
Yeah, but here's someone whogrew up in the poorest, toughest
conditions you could possiblyimagine, made mistakes, ended up
(37:59):
in prison and yet was able tocompletely change his life and
inspire thousands, constantlyevolving his take on the world.
His take on the world the dayhe died was quite different than
it was even two years prior.
It's one of the most Americanstories of all time because he
truly made it from conditions wecould only imagine.
(38:20):
I love that book and I loverecommending it.
He's an underrated Americanfigure and so a lot of people
don't know the story and I feelpeople will find it quite
inspirational.
Nothing to do with sport orrunning, but I just feel they'll
find the story quiteinteresting and quite
inspirational.
As far as books about sport go,geez, it's just so tough because
there's so many differentcategories.
I do love recommending Shoe Dogif you like the business of
(38:42):
sport.
I also like recommending a bookcalled Players by Matt
Futterman, incredible book aboutthe business of sport and
agents and brand sponsorships.
He goes through each sport andhow it found professionalism,
from golf and tennis to runningto, of course, the major sports.
It's awesome.
(39:02):
It's an incredible read Forcoaching.
I love the John McDonnellautobiography.
The training is a bitantiquated but the coaching
style is interesting.
I like Sir Alex Ferguson's bookLeading.
I love books about historicalfigures because we can learn
from leaders' walks of lifepoliticians, businessmen and
women, of course, athletes.
(39:22):
The Ted Turner autobiography isreally fascinating.
There's a lot of sport becausehe was a world-class sailor.
I like recommending books fromdifferent walks of life.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Brilliant, excellent recommendations, most of which
aren't on my reading list orhaven't read.
That will be expanding rapidlyagain.
Thank you very much.
We also get the previous guestto the podcast to ask the next
guest a question without themknowing who that is going to be,
and our previous guest wasanother recommendation, an
introduction from MattFitzgerald actually.
So it was Andrea Burke, meHenkel, the Olympic gold
(39:53):
medalist, and I think Claire'sgot her question.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Andrea asks what are you doing to stay healthy
forever?
Speaker 3 (40:00):
that's good timing for that question.
When I was coaching, I letmyself get unhealthy.
You're so committed to theseathletes and the pressure of
having their hopes and dreams onyour shoulders suffocating.
I didn't sleep well, Ididn'tating.
I didn't sleep well, I didn'teat well, I didn't exercise and
gain weight.
You wake up in your 40s 30pounds, overweight, out of shape
(40:21):
, not eating well, and Irealized you can't keep living
like this.
People don't make it to their80s they die.
I realized I needed to get myact together and currently I
would say one of the reasons Ivolunteered at the local high
school was to be around youngpeople.
Again, being around youngpeople keeps you young.
It also forces me to run everyday because I run with the team.
I haven't necessarily tried tomake a huge effort to eat better
(40:44):
, but when you're running more,it's almost like you crave
better food, and so I feel likeof recent I'm talking, like this
summer I've been eating better.
I think it's a combination ofsurrounding yourself with
youthful, vibrant peopleexercising every day and eating
well.
So it's nothing revolutionary,but that's what I'm trying to do
.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
You become the average of the five people you
hang out with most.
Ultimately, the energy isgiving you youth again by
hanging out with younger people.
Same concept, same concept.
Brilliant Ben, it's beenfascinating, really enjoyed
chatting to you.
Thank you so much.
I wish you every success forthe team going forward, for Team
USA in the Olympics, just aslong as they're not just behind
(41:23):
Team GB.
But no, it's been reallyinteresting, particularly to get
understanding, a betterunderstanding of the world of
business behind the running team.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
We're recording this outro aweek after the Ben Rosario
(41:45):
interview, which was afascinating interview.
But I want to start off bysaying, since we recorded this,
it didn't feel like Team USA wasreally doing that much better
than Team GB relative to thepopulation size, given the
amazing collegiate runningenvironment that they create,
and then, since we recorded that, they seem to have won almost
every track and field medal outthere and made me look like a
(42:07):
fool.
So Team USA absolutely rocked onthe track and field.
It's been incredible.
But also since that time timewe had the conversation about
ingebert not doing his thing inthe 1500, but he did do his
thing in the 5000 meters andabsolutely incredible.
But what did you make of theinterview with ben?
Speaker 1 (42:25):
yeah, it was a fantastic interview.
Some of the insights that hebuilt on actually a bit further
than some of the otherinterviews we've had in terms of
, I think for the whole, notsetting a time for a race but
running at a certain pace thatyou're running at right now and
then getting ready and trainingto that event and then saying,
okay, what am I capable ofachieving, as much as you can
(42:48):
push yourself and the egg whatyou're going to do from a finish
time.
Actually, I think the importantpart that was you could do
better.
I liked that insight and theway he thinks about goals in a
slightly different way.
What did you think from a goalperspective?
Because you're the goals person.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I agree, I think that was really interesting, but I
think it was what I really.
What got me thinking was, it'seasy to say, to set like an
arbitrary goal of I want to do afour-hour marathon or an 11
hour Ironman or 10 hour orwhatever it is, but it's
actually it's just thisarbitrary stake in the ground,
isn't it?
And, like you say, you could dosignificantly better than that.
But the mistake people make isthey go well, I want to do a
(43:22):
four hour marathon.
Therefore, I'm going to run thetraining based on a four hour
marathon time, even though mycurrent time is 420.
So actually much better to dothe training 420 time.
I thought that was reallyinteresting and then actually
you adapt from that trainingbetter and you're more likely to
(43:43):
do your four-hour marathon andless likely to get injured.
So I thought that wasinteresting.
The other part I foundfascinating was the influence of
athletes winning, in particular, shoes and how much it's worth
to companies like Hoka tosponsor teams to put all the
revenue into the team really tocreate those athletes.
What did you make of the wholerunning shoe conversation?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I think it's a side I'd never really thought of, to
be honest, in terms of the waythat he described about all
shoes need to be on a levelplaying ground and actually that
shoe could help you becomefaster.
Every brand needs to have thaton a level playing ground.
So I thought that was reallyinteresting.
So many athletes we've spokento and I think particularly post
(44:20):
COVID more than anything,finding sponsorship appears to
be really difficult now in termsof getting funding.
But the way that he describedthe team that he has and the way
that he's got that funding,that business behind that team,
I thought was fascinating.
What did you think from abusiness perspective?
I thought it was a really didyou think from a business?
Speaker 2 (44:35):
perspective.
I thought it was a reallyinteresting business model, the
non-profit business.
It's entirely, almost entirelyfunded by Hoka and to see that
is investment that's Hokaconsidered to be valuable
investment, that is.
I find it fascinating.
But then when you see I don'tknow if you've seen air the film
(44:55):
about michael jordan, it's onlythe final part of shoe dog,
where they take on michaeljordan the book and there's some
stats in there that I just blewme away.
And when they're striking thisdeal with michael jordan, they
say something along the lines ofokay, we'll give him the deal
that we want.
It's way more than we.
We've never given any athleteanything like this.
And it was something like 25 ofthe sale of the shoes and his
(45:18):
name escapes me, but I thinkit's bill knight.
I think that's right.
That's running.
Nike says what's the worst thatcan happen the most we've ever
sold of a shoe is, let's say, 1million or like 250 000 pairs.
And then a stat comes up in thefirst year they sold something
like 5 million and they're stillpaying Michael Jordan something
(45:41):
like a billion dollars a year.
That's probably slightly morein shared revenue off the back
of this deal, but it's equallymade Nike three times that it's
incredible and you see it andyou go, well, okay, okay, now I
get why hokum see the value indoing things like that.
It is incredible.
So, yeah, I thought it wasreally interesting.
I thought interestingunderstanding how a running team
(46:02):
was funded.
I thought it was interestinghow he took his professional
approach to coaching matt, whowe had on the podcast before.
Great episode with lots oftakeaways and inspiration in
terms of keeping it simple,focusing on training, the the
right way, eating the right way,getting the right amount of
sleep For everyone.
That's listening.
Another awesome episode and, inthe meantime, until the next
(46:23):
one, keep on training.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
So I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that
there were going to be somepractical tips in this episode,
shared by Ben, around realpractical solutions and
strategies that his team havearound their nutrition and their
sleep and their recovery.
And if you'd like a few morepractical tips and you're
struggling with an overwhelm ofinformation out there on social
(46:47):
media, drop us a call.
There's a free call link.
If you look in the show notesbelow and click on the link, you
can book a free discovery callwith me and we can discuss some
real practical solutions to someof your challenges.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto
the Business of Endurancepodcast.
We don't ask for you to pay forus.
We don't ask for patronage.
All we ask for is that yousubscribe to the podcast,
ideally on Apple.
Give us a five star ratingbecause it shows us you care and
, if you've got time, leave us acomment.
One word is fine, somethinglike inspiring or amazing or
(47:25):
something like that, but wereally do appreciate it and it
will help us to continue todeliver amazing guests on what
we hope you find to be anamazing podcast.
Thanks very much.
Jeff and Chloe from Big MooseCharity, we featured in episode
one of season seven, made such agreat impact on the both of us,
(47:48):
we decided to make them ourcharity sponsor for season seven
, and it really touched me inthe sense that I lost my
brother-in-law to suicide inWales and these guys are working
their socks off to help preventsituations like that.
Claire, why did Geoff and Chloereally make an impact on you?
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Coming from a background in clinical nutrition
and working in mental health.
To me also it hit a spot interms of the charity and how
they are building therapy tohelp support people with mental
health.
To me also it hit a spot interms of the charity and how
they are building therapy tohelp support people with mental
health difficulties, and they'vesaved over 50 lives now and
already met their first targetof a million and their new
target, 15 million, that they'retrying to get to.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a
huge target they've setthemselves, but they're speeding
up help that people indesperately in need get, and
this help is needed more thanever and I know how problematic
mental health issues are intoday's world.
So if you think you can helpBig Moose Charity and they're
particularly looking forcorporate partners to help them
(48:52):
raise that 15 million.
If you think you can help themor link them into a company that
can help them the best million,if you think you can help them
or link them into a company thatcan help them, the best place
to go to is bigmoosecharityco oryou can find them on Instagram
as bigmoosecharity, or you caneven email Jeff at
jeffatbigmooseco.
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