From Banking to Bike Innovation: Alex's Journey with Ku Cycles

Welcome to this episode of The Business of Endurance podcast! Today, we're thrilled to have Alex Bok, the visionary founder of Kú Cycle, with us. Alex's journey from a successful banking career to revolutionising the triathlon bike industry is nothing short of inspiring. In this episode, you'll discover how Alex’s insights from Formula 1 engineering and his passion for triathlon led to groundbreaking innovations in bike design. Learn about the importance of marginal gains, the impact of aerodynamics on performance, and how Kú Cycle's unique business model is disrupting the industry. Alex will share stories from his collaboration with top athletes, including his work with the legendary Brett Sutton and the rising star Rico Bogen. Whether you're an athlete, entrepreneur, or cycling enthusiast, this episode is packed with valuable lessons on fitness, business, and personal growth. Don't miss out on Alex’s practical advice and inspirational journey!

Highlights:

• Transition from Banking to Bike Boutique
• Innovative Concepts in Bike Retail
• Founding and Philosophy of Kú Cycle
• Technical Innovations in Kú Cycles
• Challenges and Evolution in Bike Design
• Team BB and Professional Triathlon Insights
• NextGen Project and Future Goals
• The Evolution of Aerodynamics in Cycling
• Balancing Innovation and Production in Bike Manufacturing
• The Role of AI in Modern Cycling
• Funding and Business Strategy for Kú Cycle
• Ku’s Marmite Effect: Love It or Hate It
• Tony Robbins' Influence on Personal and Business Growth
• The Power of Books and Compounding in Business
• Understanding CDA and Its Impact on Performance
• Future Goals and Innovations for Kú Cycle

Links:
Click here for additional helpful content mentioned in this episode.
Connect with Alex Bok on Instagram & LinkedIn & Web.

Explore The Limitless Life Workshop
We are living in a time of abundance, where entrepreneurs have more opportunities than ever before. With the rise of AI, colossal advancements in technology and the scope to reach millions of people in seconds, it has never been a more exciting or easily accessible time for your business to thrive. But are you riding that wave of exhilaration, or are you crashing and burning in a downhill spiral?

Please Subscribe to Business of Endurance on Apple Podcasts, leave a comment, and give us a 5-Star review.

Launch Your Own Podcast:
ShoRunner is the leading podcast production and strategic content company for brands, organisations, institutions, individuals, and entrepreneurs. Our team sets you up with the right strategy, equipment, training, guidance and content to ensure you sound amazing while speaking to your niche audience and networking with your perfect clients. Get in touch with Jason on LinkedIn.

This episode was sponsored by The Trusted Team and 4th Discipline

Episode Transcript

Claire (00:04):
I'm Charlie Redding and I'm Claire Fudge.

Charlie (00:06):
Welcome to the Business of Endurance.

Alex (00:12):
You do get quite a group of people who say, oh, you're a
new brand, you must sponsor me,give me a bike and I will
promote your brand.

Charlie (00:23):
Welcome to the first episode of season eight of the
Business of Endurance podcast.
Wow, eight seasons, well over ahundred amazing athletes,
coaches, entrepreneursinterviewed so far and we've got
an incredible season eightlined up for you.
And today I'm thrilled to startoff with an incredible

(00:43):
interview with a guy called AlexBock, the visionary founder of
Coup Cycle.
So Alex's journey from asuccessful banking career to
revolutionizing the triathlonbike industry is nothing short
of inspiring.
In this episode, you'lldiscover how Coup's insights
from the world of Formula Oneengineering and their passion
for triathlon led to agroundbreaking innovation in

(01:05):
bike design.
You can learn about theimportance of marginal gains,
not just in sport but also inbusiness, the impact of
aerodynamics on performance, andhow coup cycles unique business
model is disrupting theindustry and revolutionizing the
way that bikes are delivered toathletes.
Alex will share stories fromhis collaboration with top

(01:28):
athletes, including his workwith the legendary Brett Sutton
and the rising star that is RicoBogan.
So, whether you're an athlete,an entrepreneur or a cycling
enthusiast, this episode ispacked full of valuable lessons
on fitness, business andpersonal growth.
So check out the incredibleadvice and the inspirational

(01:49):
story and the wisdom of AlexBock of QCycles and Alex is
going to touch on and delve intowhy marginal gain, both in the
product and in business, are soimportant, and if you stick
around to the end, I've got agift for you that'll help make
sure that you generate marginalgains in your business.

(02:17):
Alex, welcome to the Business ofEndurance podcast.
I'm really looking forward tochatting to you and,
particularly as I know today wecan get into some sort of the
areas that I love to talk about,things like marginal gains and
innovation in a sector.
So I'm really looking forwardto chatting to you.
But I really want to go back toyour roots a little bit, and
you started your career ininternational banking and then

(02:38):
you've come through to the bikeboutique and now, of
course-Cycle.
So tell us a bit about how youwent from the world of banking
to the world of Q-Cycle.
Tell us about your roots inthis sport.
Hi, charlie.

Alex (02:52):
Hi, claire, great to be with you guys today.
So I started my career 12 yearsin banking, three banks in
particular, and of that most ofit in Asia, and then sometime
also in consultancy.
Triathlon though since 1999,was my sport of choice and also
my passion.
So I've always done it like tokeep my sanity besides 80 hour

(03:14):
working weeks, to see how youalso keep your lifestyle up.
And after I moved to Asia in1999 with my wife, she actually
went full heads into Buddhismmeditation.
So that's the first part whereyou have somebody talking to you
and you start to sometimesquestion the corporate world or
how to balance it.
Then I went through a lot ofpersonal developments with

(03:35):
people like Tony Robbins, deepakChopra, but also a good book
which is from Stephen Covey, theSeven Habits of Highly
Effective People, where he, likerule rule number one says
keeping the end in mind.
So suddenly I started to looklike so what if I'm 65?
And I look back, I started tounderstand Charlie, or started
to see, maybe, that thecorporate world would not keep
my interest or passion for thenext 30 years.

(03:57):
What really started to inspireme was human performance and
then, I think, pushing theboundaries through triathlon,
but also in the bike retailindustry.
So that's like in a short story, how I take a drastic move
which my dad didn't agree withfor 12 months, leaving the
comfort of the corporate worldand actually go really into the
bike retail and triathlonindustry.

Charlie (04:19):
So how did you leave the world of banking and what
did you do next and how did youget to where you are now?

Alex (04:25):
It was a drastic move as a senior vice president at the
largest bank in Singapore, themanagement team of the consumer
banking division.
So in 12 years I ended up in aposition where, financially
working, wise and mentally,you're being challenged and you
have a lot of fun and you'redriving teams.
I had invested in a bike shopin Singapore.

(04:46):
After six to 12 months theycame back hey, can you top up
and invest a bit more?
And then I said, hang on, let'slook at what are you doing with
your store.
How are you creating a valueand how do you make customers
excited?
You start to quickly seethere's space for improvements
and things to change.
I resigned and the next day Ijoined the shop.
It was called the Bike Boutique.

(05:07):
We rebranded it and relocatedit to the central business
district in Singapore.
The innovation, as a sort ofDutch bike lover, was how do we
get people out of cars with anincreasing BMI index in Asia
over the last 20 years, wheneverMcDonald's, burger King and
Kentucky Fried Chicken landedits franchises in those Asian

(05:29):
countries where healthy food andlifestyles turned into Western
food and lifestyles?
And then so we created theservice called Bike Lodging that
allowed people to bike to work,park their bike, have a shower,
have a locker, order breakfast,and so I was actually starting
to serve my old colleaguesbankers, lawyers and insurance
people and at that time we werea bit lucky that CNN was doing

(05:52):
documentaries about livingcities and Singapore is a good
example of busy, crowded, buttrying to find out lifestyles to
make it livable for people.
We were captured in thatdocumentary and, if I fast
forward, I've ended up buildinga retail franchise with six,
seven stores from Australia,asia, europe and the US Slowly

(06:14):
moved to the distributionbusiness for Cervelo.
So I was the distributor forCervelo in 10 countries in Asia,
worked with W2C or IMN on eventapparel.
Countries in Asia work with W2Cor IMN on event apparel
merchandise and expos.
Move towards production andproduct development with John
Kopp from Kopp Cycling in the USand on the side Team TBB, the

(06:34):
professional driving team, andat the end Charlie Clara was
like OK, this is all great.
I've now tried to promoteservices, a healthy lifestyle.
I've been selling products ofother people's companies.
How great would it be to have aproduct of our own.
But I'm not smart andintelligent enough to really go

(06:54):
through that innovation.
And that's where my businesspartner, richard McKay, comes
into the picture.
We teamed up in 2019 andnurtured this baby called Coup
Cycling for the last four yearsFantastic.

Claire (07:06):
Talking about Ku Cycles, I love your story behind where
you've come from and alwayslooking for that human
performance element.
And with Ku Cycles, tell us alittle bit about that real
innovation around the Ku bikeand the aerodynamics.
Where did these key innovationscome from?
How did you get into this worldof triathlon with these bikes?

Alex (07:28):
I would say richard is really critical in that part.
He, after 12 years in formulaone, seven years with ferrari as
one of the lead engineers, teambenneton he had been on the
forefront of motorsports andlearned how carbon composites,
aerodynamics and engines all, ashe says, glued together were

(07:51):
really leading to innovation andto world championships and
athlete performance.
So if you're part of sevenworld championships with Michael
Schumacher, build cars for him,people like Jos Verstappen, the
dad of Max Verstappen andyou're part of 91 Grand Prix and
in that sort of non-stop,performance driven environment,

(08:11):
yeah, you learn a lot.
And so he looked at bikes andthe bike industry from a
completely different perspective.
Very much like a Formula Onecar.
And how does the wind hit thefront of the car?
How do you then move andcontrol the airflow of wind
underneath, around and on top ofa car?
And how do you actually pushthe wind at the end, how do you

(08:33):
create a lift off the car?
So I think for Koo, his initialpart was really, I think the
most important thing is thefront of the bike, where we call
the fork Airstream technologycomplete different way of
thinking about how you tell thewind what to do in and around
the bike.
Then, when we came together infirst talk I had a background of

(08:54):
having developed a complete newchannel in the bike industry,
which is the bike fittersenabled us to go into a build to
order model, and once you gointo build to order, you can
also create a bit of excitementand inspiration by personalizing
frames.
So that's sort of, in short,how this came about and for
those people that haven't seen aq cycle.

Charlie (09:13):
I suspect that most of our listeners have, but there'll
be definitely people who outthere maybe not even triathletes
that haven't described tosomebody who hasn't seen one
what makes them look and feeldifferent.

Alex (09:25):
Well, I guess most people, if we say the Arc de Triomphe
in Paris and we've just seen theOlympics, charlie and the Arc
de Triomphe, I think if youstand in front of it like gives
that sort of feel of the fourthat we have.
It's a very wide, much higherthan we used to, and the four
legs are much more wider, and sowhat that really does is it

(09:47):
reduces the blockage of wind onthe front of the bike.
If we take current bikes or allthe other bikes, then you
haven't hit you, so we have awheel and we have a fork that is
closely around the wheel.
The reason that historically isthere because we had brake
calipers before.
We had disc brakes and thesebrake calipers had to be

(10:09):
attached to something whichbecame the fork and the head
tube.
And so once Richard looked atbikes and said what has
dramatically changed in the lastfive years in biking, it was
the introduction of disc brakes.
And then he asked has any otherchange been affected as a
result of this disc brake?
And to his astonishment he saidactually nothing really changed

(10:30):
to the bikes or frame designsafter the introduction of the
disc brake, but the brakecaliper was removed, and if you
remove the brake caliper, youcan actually rethink the fork.
So for somebody that hasn't seenit, an arctic tree with a much
wider fork, much higher.
That allows the wind not to beblocked by the head tube.
But the wind then actuallyblows through the fork and once

(10:52):
you do that you reduce theblockage.
But now you can also manipulateand improve the downstream
airflow along the bikes and thewind actually bounces through
the legs of the rider.
That was never been done insuch a dramatic way.
And then, while you control theairflow passing the bike, you

(11:12):
can also control it where itleaves the bike.
And that's, that's maybe thebest way to describe in words
how the bike looks likebrilliant.

Charlie (11:21):
Thank you, and bike innovation has had a sort of a
stop start approach, hasn't it?
What has stopped innovation ofbikes in the past and, as a
result of your innovations, whatresults have you seen to
suggest that this new approachis working?

Alex (11:37):
That's a great question.
Historically the bike industryhas organized so the big brands,
trek, specialized, canyon,canyon and all those cervello.
They really focused on thegrand tours, because the grand
tours that created the mostmedia, the most attention, so
most product development will gointo the grand tours tour de
france, giro.

(11:58):
So then we have these roadbikes, either arrow roads or
bikes that we use for climbing,and then we have this really
strange discipline called thetime trial, which is one or two
time trials in each grand tour.
So that's where funding went.
So what happened was that firstthe UCI saw a lot of wild
designs happening until 1995 forthese time trial specific bikes

(12:22):
and they they said, wait, hangon, this is getting too
dangerous.
Smaller front wheels, biggerrear wheels, massive chain rings
.
And so the UCI in 1996introduced the Lugano Charter
and that reduced and put rulesto how you have to design bikes.
So within that constraint thebike industry then said we have
a time trial bike here, we haveno dollars left, no investments

(12:45):
left for triathlon bikes, butwe'll take the time trial bike,
put a longer stem on it, andthat should be okay for a
triathlete, where the timetrialist, after 40 kilometers,
being completely cropped up inan aerodynamic position, gets a
massage and a drink, thetriathlete still has to run a
marathon.
And so you start to see thatthat these time trial

(13:06):
derivatives that we calltriathlon bikes were not the
same.
So another part is thattriathlon bikes were really sold
like underwear small, medium,large and high performance bikes
and if you really want tooptimize performance, we feel
there should be no bike.
You go for a bike fit as muchas you go to an optician to get

(13:28):
your eyes measured or to atailor to find out what are your
body measurements.
If you want to make a suit, andso we said the bike fit should
be done first, stop using asmall, medium and a large prey
and try to then go to a fitterand make the bike get used to
the body, but instead to say,build the bike underneath the

(13:48):
body.
So that's, in short, whathampered innovation and how we
feel that some things really hadto change, and that's really
what we tried.
That was the problem that wesaw and that we've tried to
address awesome.

Claire (14:00):
I love the idea and for me, who does have a Coo cycle,
which I absolutely love, it's agame changer to actually have a
bike that's built around you andyour geometry, rather than the
other way around.
So, yeah, likening it to buyingunderwear, I think, is a very
good way to describe it.
Now, obviously, with thedifferent design that Coo has,

(14:22):
people are looking at thatdesign, but they're also
wondering where does the namecome from, and the logo as well.
So could you tell us a littlebit about what Koo means or
where that name originated from?

Alex (14:32):
Yeah, when you start a new brand and you're trying to
create a high performance brand,it's not easy to keep it unique
.
Richard and I locked ourselvesin on a floating boat on a lake
in the north of the Netherlandsto think about the vision, the
values, really what we want todeliver to the customer, and
ultimately we said, if you wakeus up in the middle of the
morning, it's about optimizingthe performance.

(14:54):
A name that goes with that camefrom Old Celtic Irish and the
coup there means a greyhound, sothe fastest dog in the world.
There means a greyhound, so thefastest dog in the world, and
that runs at 72 kilometers anhour, and we thought that's a
great inspiration to see howfast we can get these to perform
.
So the greyhound enhanced thelogo, like from the greyhound,

(15:15):
but a slightly optimized andless doggy version, but a more
futuristic version.

Charlie (15:20):
I love that, because I didn't know where that had come
from at all and I hadn't madethe link to the Greyhound, so
that's fantastic.
What stats can you throw at usthat will explain why you think
what you've built is amarket-leading performance bike?

Alex (15:34):
Generally, the bike industry goes long on making
clips and this is the fastestbike in the industry.
We really try to stay away fromthat because, a it depends on
the environment, it depends onthe athlete, it depends on the
body size.
So you will not find on ourwebsite where it says we're the
fastest bike in the world.
What we do promise andguarantee at this is that, no

(15:58):
matter what bike brand or bikemodel athletes come from, we
guarantee them a performanceimprovement of 15 to 25 watts.
That's A by the technology wecall it new technology, the
front of the bike, but B alsothe bike fit, the build to order
model and spending a lot moretime than we believe most of our

(16:20):
competitors on aero testing.
So optimizing the position, thehelm, the shoes, the apparel of
the athlete and the way then,ultimately, to make a claim.
Instead of staying away fromclaims, we say if we can not
find an athlete, 15 watts ormore, they return us the bike

(16:40):
and we return them their money.
And then suddenly, as a smallbrand, hey, you're reducing the
risk for the consumer to say hey, you're new, how sure are you?
That's a performance guarantee.
And two, you better make surethat you can deliver, otherwise
you're going to have a lot of,you're going to have a lot of
products returned and you haveto repay all these people.
And then you sit there withbikes that have been built to

(17:02):
one customer and within that, wehave currently a few hundred
bikes in the market in 40countries and we're quite proud
to say that not one bike hasbeen returned.
So far, so good, but it meansthat we have to keep pushing
ourselves every moment where wecan to improve the performance.

Claire (17:19):
I think that's fantastic .
You're setting out to increaseeverybody by 15 to 20 watts and
obviously doing it by not havingany returns as well.
You gave us a little bit of ataste there about Team BB and
Brett Sutton, and I just wantedto dive in here.
Tell us a little bit about TeamBB and I think I might know now
where the name came from.
But tell us, and what did youlearn, particularly from working

(17:42):
with Brett Sutton?
How did that team come about?
And also what did you learnfrom working with with Brett
Sutton?
How did that team come about?
And also what did you learnfrom working with the athletes
Chrissie Wellington as anexample.

Alex (17:51):
Yes, the Bike Boutique was the retail franchise that we
were developing.
In order to promote the retailconcept and into converting it
into a franchise and to drive aninterest, I thought I want
athletes that have the brand ontheir chest.
And then a road team is verycomplex.
A mountain bike team I was notso familiar enough with mountain

(18:15):
biking, but Triathlon I did.
Somebody knew that I was tryingto start a with mountain biking
, but triathlon I did.
Somebody knew that I was tryingto start a professional team,
called me, said Alex, we knowyou, you like big dreams and if
you want to start a professionaltriathlon team, you don't want
to take 10 years to get it tothe top.
So nope, that's right.
Then you have to talk to thisguy, brett Sutton.
I did.
He came obviously with anincredible coaching credential.

(18:36):
We got together and reallytalked about what could this
team do and we came together in2006.
He brought in a couple of worldchampions.
We sat together and I said ifwe can create a vision and
mission, values and what we wantto achieve and write that on
one page and both agree on it,then I think we have a focus on

(18:56):
what this team could achieve andwe actually set it out as the
team.
It never said we need to createworld champions.
It actually says we want toprovide hope and opportunity
through sports.
And so the secondary part tothat was can we create a
development process to help andguide ace group athletes, how to
get to the top, become aprofessional athlete and a

(19:18):
winning professional athlete?
And so the way we actually, Ithink, have done that and that's
really what I learned fromBrett Sutton His coaching
experience obviously was heavilytapped.
He did all the coaching, I didmore the management and the
funding of the team and sponsorsand I would say, in working
with Brett, creating theenvironment or ecosystem where

(19:39):
success is inevitable.
I think that's his biggest win.
He creates systems, processes,a way of thinking where you pick
and stick to things that youwork, you adjust where you you
can, but also there's no magicbullet.
It's how it works.
It.
I think it's the level ofthinking of human performance

(19:59):
and to also understand that itis the body, as much as the mind
, as much as technology, thatyou all need to put in place.
And the team produced, in sevenyears, five world champions, 66
half Ironman champions, so Iguess we didn't do too shabby at
the end of it.
Brad continued and is still onthe forefront of coaching.

(20:20):
I think every Olympics sinceStratham was been has been
included in the as an Olympicsport.
He's won medals, including justa couple weeks ago in Paris.
Great respect for that.
And he keeps producing morechampions.

Charlie (20:33):
For now, we have tried to create our own program, sql
Cycle, and see how much we canreplicate from what we learned
in the past Brilliant, and Ithink you're referring to the
NextGen project, aren't you,which Rico Bogan, a recent guest
of ours, has benefited from,and we did speak to him about it
.

Alex (20:51):
But tell us what you're trying to do with the NextGen
project and how you think thatwill shape the future of coup
and also triathlon sometimesthese programs start because
you're getting questions andthen, as a young little company
and a baby, you get questionsthat you feel like cost that

(21:11):
would be really great.
So we had a lot of athletesyou're a new brand.
You do get quite a group ofpeople who say, oh, you're a new
brand, you must sponsor me,give me a bike and I will
promote your brand.
And then you're like, you cando that a few times.
Who do you give a bike to?
So, instead of giving bikes ormaking a scientific guess of

(21:31):
which athlete to support, ourfirst decision was when our
investors said, oh, don't weneed a world champion on the
bike to promote it?
I said, yeah, that's good.
Why, and who is that?
That will be Jan Frodeno.
Why don't you get Jan Frodenoto ride our bike?
I said, first of all, that'sgoing to cost us a quarter
million to get Jan reallyexcited.
Secondly, I don't really thinkbuying world champions is the

(21:53):
way to build a brand.
Ace group, at least these days,are educated and smart enough
to know that, yes, professionalathletes get a bike and they
need to live.
And so, rather than that, Ithought why not we create,
develop a program that run, thatbuilds champions rather than
buys champions.
And so then we said let's notstay away from professional

(22:15):
athletes, first work with agegroup athletes.
So we created in the uk.
That was the.
So then we said let's not stayaway from professional athletes,
first work with age groupathletes.
So we created in the uk.
That was the first country.
We said let's pick three boysand three girls that are really
good age group athletes.
They buy into the program, soit's not a free bike, they buy
into the program and once theybuy into the program, we give
them so much value.
Most of all, they get a freebike fit.

(22:35):
We build the bike for them.
They're invited to an aero campin the netherlands.
They know they will go homewith what's found.
They get a race bonus.
So it's a whole programultimately focused on how do we
take you from where you are nowas an ace broker to the top and
that means your age group inkona, in nice or wherever the

(22:56):
70.3 World Championship is held.
We achieved that within ninemonths with Marlene de Boer in
the Dutch Next Gen program,where we won the 2021 Ironman
World Championship with her.
She had a 22 minutes advantageover the second girl and she won
overall.
So that was like, ok, this isgreat girl.

(23:18):
And she won overall.
So that was like, okay, this isgreat.
Then in 22, I started talkingto rico, who came out and says,
hey, your bike looks verytechnology advanced.
Nobody got a free bike, but theydid get what we promised.
And then in the last 12 monthswe said, okay, now we have a
rico bogus.
And then suddenly, in 23, wayahead of schedule, he wins the
70.3 Ironman World Championship.
And now we thought, ok, out ofthis pool we then select the

(23:42):
best performance and guide theminto a professional career.
And so it's like a pyramid.
It looks a little bit like TeamTBB, but it doesn't have one
coach.
Every athlete can keep his owncoach.
So people like to select theirown shoes, their own nutrition,

(24:02):
but it is a program that does,in a way, also provide hope and
opportunity for age groupathletes to become professional
athletes and then winningprofessional athletes, and we
have quite a few of those in themeantime.

Claire (24:08):
It's fantastic to hear about a different approach as
well in terms of nurturing andmaking your own athletes, and I
think in the world ofsponsorship right now we've
heard lots of stories fromdifferent athletes about how
difficult that is, and I reallylike that approach of working
with an athlete rather than justgiving them something as well.

(24:34):
So Alex was talking there aboutthe ecosystem that coup cycle is
creating for the next genproject of age group and
up-and-coming athletes, but alsocreating that part of a family
within the atmosphere thatthey're creating for people
buying bikes, athletes buyingbikes.
And if you want to also diveinto an ecosystem, I'm giving

(24:59):
you the opportunity to sign upfor a free webinar all about
optimizing your performance,increasing your vitality and
energy and improving your health.
So if you'd like to sign up forthat free webinar and become
part of an ecosystem aroundnutrition and performance, and
if you click in the link below,you'll have access to our

(25:20):
waitlist.
You talked about Richard in thedevelopment of the coup cycles
and you mentioned a little bitabout his background in Formula
One, and I just wondered if youcould tell us a little bit about
what did Richard bring, hislessons of working within
Formula One, because Iunderstand he's got such a rich

(25:42):
history behind his experience.
How did he bring what he knewfrom Formula One into the
development and the design ofthe coup cycle as it is today?

Alex (25:53):
I would say that's probably three areas.
One I think we all know thatformula one it is about an
engine and it's the combinationof the engine and the
aerodynamics that make a hugedifference.
So we don't have engines, wehumans are the engine.
So that's the part that wecan't influence, that's the
athlete themselves.

(26:13):
But first of all, I think,thinking of how to optimize
aerodynamics, telling the windwhat to do and, as he would say,
alex, I believe much less thatwe need to try and hide the bike
from the wind.
Oh, we need to tell the windwhere to go and what to do.
So that's the first part.
The second part is in formula.

(26:35):
They have these fantasticbudgets to work with in each
team, whether that's now underthe cap, 500 million a year, it
used to be.
Some teams would use to have700, 800 million.
So from that sport he alwayssaid, alex, I've never, ever had
somebody question me whether Ihad budgets to improve a product
, a component or process.

(26:57):
As long as things were comingout making the machine and the
person faster, we could doanything.
How can we make it faster?
What can we still improve?
What processes can wecompletely rethink?
I think that's very importantand I think Formula One is about
that Every week a thousandpeople in Milton Keynes in the

(27:18):
UK are thinking about how tooptimize things for that car
Third B, I think, aerosciencedata.
There's no point saying your caris faster.
Let the numbers tell the truestory and only then you can
really make improvements.
And if those improvements don'tlead to race wins or to real

(27:39):
race results, then yeah, thenyou got a lot of talk but no
action, and I think we can allstart to see how that thinking
is infiltrating not only Trampon, but even if we look at the
Tour de France, the thinking ofaerodynamics is now also
starting to hit the mainstreambike industry much more than
before.

Charlie (27:57):
You must be constantly coming up with new ideas, and
we'll come on to sort ofmarginal gains in a minute, but
at some point you've got to stopand go.
This is the bike.
We make this bike and you muststill come up with new ideas.
But how do you balance thatconstant desire to make it even
better?
And also, what's the biggestchallenge you're currently
working on for the next version?

Alex (28:17):
the cool thing, charlie, is this when you build to order,
you're already moving away froman entire industry model
because they have a yearly model.
And so they design, theydevelop, they build, they test,
they introduce.
Then they produce 10,000 piecesof a model, push it in a
container, send it to threeparts of the world and say guys,
go sell this stuff.

(28:37):
We don't have that, we don'thave stock.
So, from a development point ofview, once you've gone through
your cycle, yes, in 2019,.
When Richard knocked on thedoor, he said Alex, this is my
idea.
And I first laughed at him andI said Richard, I really think
the world has enough bikecompanies.
I would take your technology,take it to Canyon, take it to

(28:58):
Trek, try to license it and thensit back and see if it works.
And he was like I disagree,this is so drastic, this is so
innovative.
I don't think they will reallyunderstand or get it.
I don't know if people arewilling to make it.
So then I asked him about whatit was, and it was indeed so
innovative.
So we went through one cycle.
He had already performedcomputational fluid dynamics, he

(29:20):
had his design ready, he didfinite analysis, and so I asked
him.
I said how do you know it'sfaster in software?
We've tested it completelyagainst what I believe is the
gold standard in triathlon.
We both said that's thecervello p5.
Yes, I have been a distributorfor cervello for six years, sold
thousands of cervellos in Asia,so I knew that was one of the

(29:41):
best engineered bikes at thattime.
And he said my current CDA andCFD models show that we can be
three to six percent faster thanthat model.
And I was like Richard, becareful, that's 15 years of
engineering.
How do you think you can matchor break that?
He said I'm confident I'll showit.
So we then went through a fullcycle.

(30:02):
But now we make little upgrades.
So we get feedback and from aperformance improvement or from
a user performance level or froma service point of view, we can
make little changes 3D printedgrips instead of barbed tape,
implementing a new cockpit onthe bike.
Behind me, working with otherpartners that have improved

(30:23):
things, rico will suddenly comewith a new cockpit under his arm
into the velodrome and says Ithink this thing is faster and
we are pulling our hair along.
My friend, how do you want usto integrate that cockpit onto
our bike?
But because we always are opento re-question and to try new
things, and then let the numberstell the true story, as what we

(30:43):
just discussed about Formula 1.
It works and the cycles aresmall and an improvement that we
accept today.
Richard.
It implements within six toeight weeks.
We can change the molds of ourframes in less than six weeks,
and then we don't have stock, sothat improvement then sits in
every new bike that we deliver.
So we always say, let's say,when Claire bought her TF1 from

(31:06):
us, we say Claire, that's thefastest TF1 we have right now in
the market.
In three to six months, thatthing can be a little bit
improved and so we never willintroduce the 2025 model of the
TF1.
There's one TF1 and itconstantly gets improved, and
that's also how we work on ournext model.

Charlie (31:25):
How do you see AI helping you in this approach in
the future?

Alex (31:29):
That's a really interesting field, and
especially on error testing, oninterpreting the data, on
modeling, and there's lots ofdevelopments happening.
A few examples Silverstonethere's lots of developments
happening.
Few examples Silverstone windtunnels, taking wind aerotesting
to a complete new level.
Outdoor testing withaerosensors, again often driven

(31:55):
by Formula One, where you putdevices on your bike and you
actually measure 5,000 to 10,000data points per second rolling
resistance, wind yaw power, yourpower speed, gps locations
where you get a light source ofwhat would be the wind drag of
you and the bike together as asystem moving through wind.
We're playing with all theseareas and ai.

(32:17):
I think predictive modeling,learning from that data, is a
big thing as a small company,not easy in our ecosystem, with
technology partners, withfactories.
I like playfully call itinnovation through co-creation,
because we do not have a formulaone budget of four or five
hundred million a year.
We need to work and team upwith athletes, coaches, coaches,

(32:41):
media technology partners andtry in a very open way to say
guys, we're here, how can wehelp each other and how can we
actually get the benefits oftechnology?
Sharing is caring, where youactually open up your knowledge,
and AI will play a veryimportant role in that as well,
charlie.

Claire (32:59):
AI is certainly one area , so I was expecting a question
to come on AI, but I think it'sreally interesting about working
with that as well.
Charlie, ai is certainly onearea, so I was expecting a
question to come on AI.
I think it's really interestingabout working with AI as well.
And, alex, you talked a littlebit there about the big budget
that's there in Formula One.
That isn't necessarily thereand you touched on it a little
bit, but tell us a little bitabout how, with Koo Cycle, from
a business perspective, how didyou, or how are you, raising

(33:20):
capital for Coup Cycle, becauseyou're entering, or have entered
, this market of a verycompetitive market, as you said,
of making another bike.
So could you tell us a littlebit about how that has worked
for you?

Alex (33:33):
Yeah, that's obviously.
When Richard approached me andI once I understood after the
first phone call how massivelydifferent his approach was, I
knew that you need seriousfunding to get this off the
ground, to even find factoriesto be willing to produce
something.
Since 1891, bikes have hadforks that have a steerage and

(33:57):
Richard Designs showed that toget that really for working, he
cut off the steerage.
So you you know there'stechnology risk.
That means you need funding.
In our first round we we reallyworked and we're very fortunate
to have a, an angel investorwho had done serial investments
and said I really believe inwhat you guys are doing.
That is different.

(34:18):
I believe in the business modeland the vision.
Yes, we had a first roundinvestor that said I will back
this up and make sure you guyscan develop, produce the bike
and launch it in the market.
So we're there, we've done thatand we are definitely now
catching and slowly growing thesales.
It's not easy.
If you look at car companies,introducing a new model costs

(34:40):
about $1 billion.
Companies introducing a newmodel cost about 1 billion
dollars.
Introducing a new motorbike ismuch less than that, but still
it's serious money.
Introducing a new bike cost youanywhere from two to three,
four million.
So that's, that was the firstround.
We are currently going through asecond round.
We see that through triathlonand the tf1 we're gaining

(35:01):
traction the athletes, theperformances, but also where our
customers really say, hey, thishas really taken my performance
to a whole new level.
That means, yeah, on googlereviews you get really positive
reviews that help, but then youget to okay, we want to take
this technology and introduce asecond model in a different

(35:21):
segment, and so we are currentlyactually going through a second
round of financing and we'renot just looking for money also,
but industry expertise and yeah, if there are listeners that
say, hey, that soundsinteresting, then I'm just one
phone call or one whatsappmessage away what I find
fascinating about this bike isit looks very different and I

(35:42):
would describe it as the Marmiteeffect.

Charlie (35:44):
There's a lot of people that either love it or hate it,
and it was funny, actually,when I was listening to a
podcast doing my research forRico Bogan, there was a couple
of guys I can't remember whichpodcast it was but before the
episode started they were sayingthat basically, we're going to
pick a really ugly bike and it'sgoing to be one of it's either
going to be Q or one of theothers he listed three and we're

(36:05):
going to race in on that bike.
And then they went straightinto the Rico Bogan interview
and I'm like, hang on.
So on the one hand they'retaking the Mickey out of the
look and the next time they'reinterviewing the athletes that's
just won the worldchampionships on that very bike.
So tell me a little bit aboutthe marmite effect and is

(36:25):
creating a really polarizedfeedback where the people love
or hate, a really positive thing, or is it a?

Alex (36:30):
negative.
So we launched the bike rightafter covid was over.
Actually, we first launchedwhen covid just started, so we
thought, okay, let's wait alittle bit.
When we launched in the germanmarket third largest market in
the world when we tried to worktogether with the local Toronto
magazine, they posted it onlineand, as you alluded to, charlie,

(36:51):
it was very horrendous.
This thing is ugly.
We saw pictures of pukingtigers coming by and people very
quickly agreed on that.
This thing was probably theugliest thing they ever saw.
The editor, who's quite wellknown in aerodynamics, called us
.
He said guys, this is amazing.
This is like the same signalsand feedback that we received

(37:13):
when we saw the p5 and the p5xbeing introduced, looking so
different.
You guys are really ontosomething and we were laughing
already.
So the answer to your questionis we thought it was great.
We knew that initially we wouldget pushback.
That was fine, as long as itlooked different.
That was not the objective.
The objective was does it makeat least faster?

(37:33):
And then suddenly, when peoplestart to actually improve
performance and when people getreally faster and you start to
produce your first Ironmanchampions, half Ironman
champions, age group championsand first world champions, then
suddenly ugly, quite quicklyturns into fast, and then,
before you know it, it becomesactually quite pretty.

Charlie (37:52):
I think it creates conversation, doesn't it?
And, if nothing else, thatthere's a saying that no news is
bad news, and so it bringspeople to the fore, and then you
have to explain why it lookslike that, and that obviously
plays exactly into your hands.
Now I can't let the TonyRobbins mention slip.
What involvement have you hadwith Tony Robbins?
Was it reading his books, wasit attending one of his courses

(38:15):
or events, and how did it impactyour life, both in business and
outside?

Alex (38:21):
somewhere in 2001 when I lived in singapore.
We lived across the indoorstadium in singapore and my wife
just signed us up for course,called upw, unleash the power
within, and I think I see younodding.
For the first time in your lifeyou're walking a 12 meter long
fire walk over 1200 degreesburning co.
I had always loved pushing themind.

(38:42):
I'm very interested in personaldevelopment and, yeah, just
what we're doing with bikes, butdoing it with your own mind,
whether that's learningdifferent religions, learning
about meditation.
So we signed up for another six, seven courses, went to his
resorts and, as he says himself,I'm not your guru and I've
never made him my guru, but thetools and the innovation and the

(39:04):
thinking and the people heworked with, what Brett Sutton
is in triathlon or I would callhim like the Vince Lombardi of
triathlon, I think Tony Robbinsis in personal development and
it changed my life dramaticallybecame the tools for me to be
daring enough to leave a verysafe corporate environment to
say, hey, hang on, I can startsomething for myself, no matter

(39:27):
the challenges.
I think the control overemotions when adversity kicks in
, whether you're in the middleof a triathlon and you're in the
marathon.
All of us know that there arethese dark monsters that come
into your head when the paincomes in and your oxygen goes
out and the lactate kicks in.
How do you talk with thesedwarves in your head?
I think that is learning how tocontrol emotions, how to focus,

(39:49):
create a vision, how to useyour body and how to use all the
tools you can find in apsychological or NLP environment
to talk to yourself and tomotivate people and I think
that's how innovation andsuccess is created.
So big believer but also in thebalancing between mind
development, physicaldevelopment.

(40:10):
It's fascinating to have allthese tools and to learn about
them.

Charlie (40:14):
I think that's really interesting.
I think that you're right.
We often need tools or push orsomething to help us make a big
change that we know is the rightthing to do but ultimately is
difficult.
And I think, having done UPWtwice and walked on fire, and it
is incredible and it gives youthe strength to make the right

(40:34):
decisions and ultimately that'schanged your life and you've got
a very different life as aresult of it.
So that's incredible.
And it leads me onto a questionwe ask everyone on this podcast
, which is books.
I'm a big believer that bookshave helped me massively both
Tony Robbins' books, lots ofothers.
What books have you found thathave helped you most on your
journey and what books do youfind yourself recommending to

(40:55):
others?

Alex (40:55):
Yeah, I think, unleash the Power Within.
Even though it's now 50 yearsold, I think that's a big one
for me personally, I mentionedearlier on that really impacted
my life.
I think it's still relevant.
The seven habits of highlyeffective people.
But I think also not so muchbooks but the the power of now
from a gentleman called eckharttolle, how to sometimes just

(41:17):
stand still and forget about thepast and forget about the
future and live in the now andto calm down the mind and find
peace within because otherwisewe keep running.
So another area for me onwealth and investments, or
templeton learning, the power ofcompounding.
I thought those are books indifferent areas that have
impacted my life.

Charlie (41:36):
Yeah, in a great way interesting that you mentioned
the power of compounding.
How do you take what youlearned from that book and have
applied it in your business?

Alex (41:45):
Investing and taking a strategic view and creating a
buy and hold or pick and stickstrategy.
Most people overestimate whatresults can be achieved in 12
months, but completelyunderestimate, when you stick to
a certain plan and execute,what can be achieved in three to

(42:06):
five years.
And I think the power ofcompounding in terms of money is
a clear example.
I wish, looking back when I was25 or 23, that I had known then
, because I was a bit of a latestudent in this field, that if
your salary and you take ahundred bucks whether it's US or
whatever and you put that inthe S&P 500, if that's what you

(42:26):
believe in and you do that for20 years, you will be a
millionaire by 55 purely by thepower of compounding and, I
think, taking that into ourbusiness.
To take Richard's story when heexplained it, questioning him
and to really understand thatthe technology that he did was
innovative, it was viable andthe numbers were telling the

(42:48):
true story we are currently onthat three to five year path to
prove that this technology willchange bikes and how bikes will
look like in the futuredramatically.
But if we would think that wecould achieve great results in
12 months, we'll be kiddingourselves.
Just as the power of compoundingdoesn't give you the biggest
buck for the benefit within 12months, it's the pick and stick

(43:11):
and hold to your strategy.
And that even goes back to acoach like Brett Sutton who
takes sometimes athletes orother coaches.
Look at them and think, oh,they don't look very athletic,
athletic, oh, they don't reallylook like champions, and then
takes a five-year approach andjust trains them, gives them
motivation, gives thempsychological support.
And then the swiss girl thatjust won silver in paris I had

(43:35):
heard stories where people sawher six, seven years ago and
nobody would give for her toever win an olympic gold medal
bre, brett Sutton takes thatpick and stick strategy.
So I think, across differentfields, the power of compounding
is a phenomenal thinking methodand simple calculation where,
if you apply that in differentareas of your life, I think pick
and stick is a good concept.

(43:56):
As to thinking that everythingwill change just overnight with
a stroke of luck or a magicstick, it reminds me of a saying
that I think.

Charlie (44:04):
I can't remember where I first heard it, maybe Robin
Sharma.
But it's not the big things youdo occasionally that make the
biggest impact.
It's the little things that youdo often, isn't it Because of
the compounding that takeseffect?

Alex (44:14):
I love a quote from Mike Tyson, who said discipline is
doing the things you don't wantto do, but do it like you love
it.
And I think discipline is soimportant Business, personal
life, relationships, wealthmanagement or your health.

Charlie (44:29):
Brilliant.
I completely agree, and we alsohave a tradition on the podcast
where we get the last guest toask the next guest a question
without knowing who that isgoing to be.
Our last guest was DeanKarnasas, so I think Claire's
got Dean's question.

Claire (44:41):
If you could be world-class at anything but
building bikes and a bikebusiness, what would it be?

Alex (44:48):
I think I might have missed my sort of calling or
maybe I didn't have upbringingwhere sports was seen as really
important, partly because,coming from a Jewish background
my dad and coming out of theSecond World War, survival was
at that time the most importantthing, and so he was very
business focused, so sports wasnot on top of his mind.

(45:10):
So sometimes I feel I live someof my old dreams through the
athletes.
By working with Rico, I thinkthere's a part in me that still
yeah, if you could have, wouldhave, should have that you would
have more athletic sports andtop performance in both.
Brett Sutton often made funnycomments about it.
He said Alex, I have so manypeople here on the tracker in

(45:31):
the pool and some of them werebillionaires.
They would give all that moneyaway if they could be that world
champion and have thatrecognition and that feeling of
success on the finish line.
And so money or success orachieving something yeah, I
would say being a world-classathlete and have that feeling to
cross the finish line with yourarms in the air where you've

(45:52):
done something incredible, Ithink that will be phenomenal
experience.
We continuing to push theforefront of triathlon bikes.
We will have introduced a aeroroad bike that can both be used
in short course triathlon, thatis UCI Neagle and that has the
same amount of innovation on thefront of the bike and takes
more Formula One technology intothe bike.

(46:14):
That will really help Olympicathletes and short course
athletes, and that we have aroad model the peloton will
really make use and thatprobably we have a third model
introduced.
So overall we're trying to makea real impact on the bike
industry by creating acompletely different way
introducing these products intothe market.

(46:36):
So quite lofty goals and I hopewe can achieve them sounds
really.

Charlie (46:40):
When do you expect the aero road bike to be launched?

Alex (46:44):
We're looking at second half of 2025.
And Richard has worked for thelast six months.
The whole concept is there.
Those people that were involvedbrought a tier to our eye.
It's very innovative.
It's a complete new way ofthinking again about
aerodynamics around a road bike,but now within UCI rules.
Then we're also really activenow looking for that second

(47:05):
round of financing to actuallyfinance the second model,
because again it's expensive totest develop.
Introduce into the market acomplete new technology again,
amazing.

Charlie (47:16):
Alex, this has been an absolutely fascinating
conversation.
We've ended up down alleywaysthat I didn't expect to Love
talking about anything like TonyRobbins, eckhart Tolle, seven
Habits just some brilliantnuggets of wisdom in there.
Also, congratulations oncreating an incredible product,
an incredible bike, but alsoreinventing the process around
it.
I think it's absolutelyfascinating and I love the way

(47:39):
that you're shaping each bikefor each athlete.
I think it's phenomenal.
I'm looking forward to seeingthat road bike hitting the roads
next and the Peloton next yearas well.
Thank you very much.

Alex (47:48):
Thank you, and I wish you guys lots of success as well
with the business of endurance.

Charlie (47:59):
If you want to find out more about Alex and, in
particular, q Cycles, the bestplaces to find them are at their
website, on their YouTubechannel and on Instagram.
Just to be clear, q is spelledK-U and their website is
q-cyclecom.
But you'll also find that theirchannel on YouTube gives you a

(48:21):
whole load of information, notjust about their bikes, but also
about the next gen program thatAlex talked about.
So what did you make of theinterview with Alex?

Claire (48:31):
I loved it.
You know, having met the Coupfamily, got a Coup bike for me,
listening to the story of whereAlex came from in terms of his
background, but the realinnovation behind the bike.
So, although I ride the bike,actually listening to more about
where it came from and actuallywhere it's heading is
fascinating and I think we'rejust at the beginning actually

(48:53):
of possibly where that brand andthat bike can go.

Charlie (48:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
And if that bike ends up in thePeloton, suddenly it's a game
changer, isn't it?
Suddenly, that gets everyone'sattention.
Triathlon is small end of thewedge compared to the rest of
the cycling market, isn't it?
So that would be phenomenal.
I thought it was reallyinteresting.
Actually, when he talked aboutthe risk reversal, which I know
I've talked about in businesscoaching, that was brilliant in
the sense that anytime anyonebrings out anything new,

(49:18):
everyone's oh yeah, but I'mreally scared about, am I going
to trust them?
It's the same with tesla.
When tesla started, when theybrought out the model s, they
gave an eight year guarantee onthe battery, because the one
thing everyone was like how longwas the battery gonna last his?
Was you get this number ofwatts back or would you take the
bike back?
I thought that was really goodI think.

Claire (49:36):
Actually I was thinking about the way that you coach and
, having sat in on some of yourcoaching sessions, a bit about
that reducing risk.
You know, let's face it, whenyou're spending a large amount
of money on something that's newand looks really different, I
think that is fantastic and it'sobviously working for them,
because they don't have anyreturns of bikes.

Charlie (49:52):
So, yeah, I thought that was extremely interesting
and I think there's a secondpsychological piece around that
once somebody gets it the ideaof giving it back, even for
their money back you've got tobe really unhappy because it's
now their bike.
What we didn't touch on was thefact that you can put your
visual stamp on it as well as itbeing made for you.
So you've obviously got yourcorporate colors on there and

(50:14):
you can make these things lookreally cool, whether you love it
or not.
But you can make it your uniquebike, which, again, is really
powerful, but also with thatguarantee, because it would be
nervous, wouldn't it?
You'd be nervous going.
Well, I'm going to spend allthis money on a bike that I
can't return because it's uniqueto me.
So really interesting.
What else did you take from theconversation?

Claire (50:33):
I was interested by your question around ai and you
didn't surprise me.
When you asked an ai question,I I wasn't expecting it, but
then I wasn't surprised by it.
I think the AI piece is reallyinteresting, isn't it?
It comes into everyconversation that we have in
terms of where does it go next?
What are you measuring, whatare the metrics?
Who's looking at it?
So that I thought was reallyinteresting.
I also really love his answerto one of the questions around

(50:55):
business this idea of I think hereferred to it quite a bit of
pick and stick.
Actually you were asking aboutthe design as a bike and
actually once you've got adesign, then you've made it,
then you've made that design andI think, in terms of business,
actually sticking with astrategy and being true to that
and making these small tweaksthe whole time is really

(51:15):
interesting.
We didn't actually askspecifically about marginal
gains, but he certainly answeredit in terms of how they're
constantly innovating, like yousaid.

Charlie (51:22):
It's actually one of the questions I've got lined up
and answered.
It for us is it's those littleincrements that make the biggest
difference, it's not those bigsteps, and so I thought it was
brilliant how they're constantlylooking for that.
What I loved was how theirbusiness model allows them to
roll out each one of thoselittle gains time and again.
So if I go order a ku biketoday, I get the benefit of the

(51:43):
things that they thought of amonth ago that weren't on bikes
that were made a year ago,whereas, like he says, you go
buy a savello, it's an amazingbike, but ultimately at some
point they've got to makeliterally thousands of that bike
and they're now set in stone.
So I thought that was reallyinteresting, and it's very much
a business model that allowsconstant innovation, in the same

(52:06):
way that, to go back to tesla,the software updates mean that
the car keeps getting better andbetter.

Claire (52:11):
That's what they're rolling out, which is really
fascinating so it's an approachthat I use with my clients in
nutrition.
It's people want this hugechange, but actually it's all
about the tiny little thingsthat you're doing consistently
that make this huge differenceand make this ongoing tweaks and
changes to what you're doingthe whole time.
And one little nugget ofinformation.

(52:31):
I'm a bit of a history nerd.
I think he quoted that the bike, or the design of the bike,
hasn't been changed in terms ofthe front steering tube.
Is that what he called it?
I can't remember Since 1891 andI was like that's amazing.
So I did have to write it downbecause that's phenomenal, that
nobody's sort of doing it Iagree.

Charlie (52:48):
And the other gem that I thought was brilliant was
we've talked to a few peopleover 100 plus episodes about
when they've pivoted in theirlife, but the important role at
going to a tony robbins workshopgave him the confidence to
pivot and make that change andcreate something.
He could still be a banker inSingapore, but he's not.
He's created some phenomenalsuccess and some amazing

(53:11):
products on the back of beinginspired to do so.
So, yeah, a brilliant episode.
Loads to take away from thatfrom a business point of view,
also from a innovation intriathlon and cycling point of
view.
So, yeah, absolutely fantastic.
So for all the listeners, inthe meantime, keep on training.
Right at the start I mentioned Ihad a gift for you if you
wanted to generate marginalgains in your business.

(53:34):
So I have a workshop calledThree Steps to Entrepreneurial
Happiness and one of the threesteps within that workshop is
called the Game of of gains andit will show you how you can
create constant innovation,constant marginal gains in your
business.
So if you go towwwthetrustedteam and go find
our virtual workshop calledthree steps to entrepreneurial

(53:58):
happiness, which is completelyfree of charge, it's a full
three hour workshop and we'llshow you how you can generate
marginal gains in your business,not just today, but for
eternity.
If you want us to keep gettingamazing guests onto the Business
of Endurance podcast, we don'task for you to pay for us.
We don't ask for patronage.
All we ask for is that yousubscribe to the podcast,

(54:21):
ideally on Apple.
Give us a five-star ratingbecause it shows us you care and
, if you've got time, leave us acomment.
One word is fine, somethinglike inspiring or amazing or
something like that, but wereally do appreciate it and it
will help us to continue todeliver amazing guests on what
we hope you find to be anamazing podcast.

(54:42):
Thanks very much.