From Paris Grit To An LA Vision: What Happens When Sport Becomes A Community Engine With Ruth Daniels

Episode Transcript
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Ruth Daniels (00:07):
But if we can get that bit right and create that
foundation to then show that thesport is much more accessible
than some people believe, then Ithink we can get more people
who genuinely think that it's anoption as a sport and that we
break down those barriers aroundwell, you don't need to have an
expensive bike, you don't needto have an expensive bunch of
kit that sits around.
There's a real big movementaround secondhand clothing and

(00:31):
secondhand kit andsustainability, but also how we
can invest and make sure themore diverse communities are
able to access the sport and seeit.

Charlie Reading (00:42):
Today's guest is Ruth Daniels, CEO of British
Trathlon and Tramathlon England,a leader who has stepped into
the sport's top job with abackground that's anything but
typical.
From a successful legal careerto steering the global fashion
brand super dry, Ruth brings arare mix of commercial acumen,
fresh thinking, and values-ledleadership into the world of

(01:05):
endurance sport that we love.
In this conversation, Ruthshares what it was like to
become a British transformthrough the Paris Olympics.
And how she's already coming tomake LA even bigger and better.
We talk about the future ofmulti-sport events like the

(01:26):
Burley multi-sport weekend, howto solve the open water and
water quality challenges, andthe culture and values she wants
to embed across the sport.
And as a triathlete herself,Ruth reflects on her own
sporting highlights and thelessons they've taught her.
So this episode is amasterclass in leadership,

(01:46):
resilience, and why sportmatters more than ever.
So, dive right into thebrilliant episode with British
Trathlon CEO Ruth Daniels.
So could I ask you a quickfavor before we dive into

(02:16):
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Let's dive in.
So, Ruth, welcome to theBusiness of Endurance podcast.

(02:58):
Really looking forward tochatting to you about all things
business and all thingstriathlon.
Favourite two subjects.
So let's dive right in at thedeep end because that's exactly
what you had to do with yourrole at British Triathlon,
didn't you?
You joined as the CEO in anOlympic year, which must have
been like a baptism of fire.

(03:19):
So kind of talk us through whatwas that experience like both
professionally and personally,kind of joining British
Triathlon, right, you know, justin the lead up to Paris.

Thanks very much, Charlie.
Good to good to meet you andClaire.
Thank you for inviting me onthe uh on the podcast.
Um it was indeed a baptism offire.
I look back on last year and Ithink I had an out-of-body
experience, if I'm honest,because I was just swept along
in everything that was in train.
One thing was certain was theOlympics and the Paralympic

(03:50):
Games were going to happen.
And so I needed to get on alearning curve as quickly as I
as I could.
I think one of my challengeswas, as well as coming into the
sport in an Olympic year and aParalympic year, was the fact
that I came from outside ofsport.
So it really was totally new.
And my experience of theOlympics was very much as a
spectator and going along to2012 and shouting at everybody

(04:13):
and cheering them on then.
So, and I think for me it was,you know, I joined and it was
really one of those things youhad to get up to speed as
quickly as possible to justunderstand who was doing what in
the team.
Um, clearly, the performanceteam had really clear, you know,
kind of objectives that was todeliver those performances on

(04:35):
the world stage.
And so there was an element ofhaving to work into a very
trusted relationship veryquickly with Mike, who's the
performance director in thatteam, because that really wasn't
my area of expertise.
Also, to understand enough ofwhat was going on around the
athletes and the support andeverything that was needed
there.
But I think for me, it was alsoto understand how what it meant

(04:57):
for the rest of theorganization and also how we
would then leverage that and howwe could leverage that for the
sport as a whole, which is whatwe're there as a governing body
to do.
I think, you know, I mean, itwas incredible and it's amazing
what you can do when you have afocused goal.
I think we've always been,we've all been in those

(05:18):
high-pressure situations,doesn't matter what industry you
work in where you literallyhave to deliver something.
And it's amazing how everybodywill pull together where they've
got a really clear, alignedgoal to get behind.
And I must say, I was superimpressed with how the
organization responded to mejoining, having that leadership
transition, I think must havebeen really challenging for

(05:40):
everybody, especially withsomeone coming in with a very
different perspective.
And what we managed to mobilizein a very short space of time
was, I think, quite incredible.
And I still look back and kindof go, How did how do we pull
that off and how do we deliverit?
But it was absolutelyfantastic.
And I think while I was out inParis and for the Olympics and

(06:01):
the Paralympics, justunderstanding the opportunity
that it creates on theinternational stage for the
relationship building, thenetworking that you know sits
across our sports.
There's not that manyopportunities that you get
together with everybody from allthe federations around the
world.
Obviously, I was totally newinto it.
I was lucky that the thencurrent chair or the then chair

(06:25):
Bill James was incrediblysupportive of setting me up for
success in that as well, and UKsport as well in that in that
process.
So just quite incredible.
I think for me, you know, weevery everyone will know there
was lots of will it will theswim happen, will it won't
happen, and all that kind ofthing, you know, getting up at
three o'clock every morning tofind out whether the whether the

(06:47):
event that was going to happenand what format.
And then again, you know, wehad to pivot really quickly
because they cancelled thewomen's event and they moved it
and they condensed the both theraces on the same day.
And trying to figure out whatyou do with partners that you've
taken out to the event, youknow, they're there to go and
watch the their Olympicexperience, and then all of a
sudden they can't do it.

(07:07):
So, how you work with otherproviders to then give them an
experience that they're going toremember, and how we were
trying to scrabble around andmake sure that all the families
had tickets to be able to go andwatch their kids participating
because, you know, so lots andlots of challenges.
And I spent the for thewatching the the women's in the

(07:28):
men's races, I was hosting theambassador, the British
ambassador.
And I mean, if I look back onmy previous life, that again was
a totally novel experience forme.
Mina, she was absolutelyincredible.
I still have a video of usscreaming down the camera when
Alex won and when Beth cameacross the line as well.
And we hosted an event at theBritish Embassy, and again, what

(07:51):
an incredible experience tohave been able to do that and
for me to stand up.
And I just thought, oh, this islittle old me from the middle
of England standing up heretalking to all these people
about triathlon.

So incredible.
Amazing.
Was it was there a standoutmoment?
Was there a particularhighlight that will kind of stay
with you for forever?

I think there are just several.
I think that moment at the atthe embassy when I'm standing
there with you know the Duchessof Edinburgh and the and the
ambassador and trying to figureout how I actually introduced
them and standing there.
The I mean, look, the racingwas incredible.
And of course, you know, thethe women's race was was

(08:33):
brilliant, and Beth getting abronze was was amazing.
We all know that Alex's momentcrossing the line was just
incredible.
I mean, I was I was in tearsthe whole time.
I think I probably spent mostof the Olympics in tears,
actually.
It was a very emotionalexperience.
But that true kind of grit ofgetting over the line and

(08:54):
getting that gold medal was wassort of standout.
And there's been obviously lotsof lots of playouts of that.
And but the Paralympics for me,you know, it showcases so many
incredible individuals and whatthey are capable of doing.
And we, you know, we have thesecond most successful Olympic,

(09:14):
Paralympic, Paralympic team, andthose moments of Dave Ellis
with Luke Pollard crossing theline when they'd had such an
awful mechanical in in Tokyo,incredible.
And yeah, so as I say, lots ofamazing moments.
And yeah, just feel veryprivileged, very, very
privileged to have been able toexperience it in the way that I

(09:36):
was and to be in a sport thatdelivered so many amazing
moments for everybody as well.

Brilliant.
And looking back, is thereanything that you would have
done differently, whether it'ssort of during the Olympics or
in that sort of short lead up tothe Olympics, you know, knowing
what you know now, is thereanything you do do differently?

I'd have probably joined a year earlier, and that
would have been that would havebeen helpful.
Um I think for me the planningis is is really critical.
And I feel very lucky to havebeen through that cycle because
I already now have one eye on LAand what we need to be doing in
the broader organization sense.
So the performance team operatein the four-year cycle because

(10:15):
that's how they get funded.
So there's always the build-up.
The rest of the organisationdon't necessarily work in work
in work in that way becauseobviously we're across lots of
different aspects of the sport,and it's not just about the
Olympics.
I think how we engage thecommunity around triathlon in
the lead up to the Olympics.
I think I would love us to bedoing much more around that

(10:38):
going forward.
Um, you know, we are Team GB,which means we're across
England, Scotland, and Wales.
And it's really important thatwe bring everybody into that
build-up.
We managed to do asummer-inspired campaign and we
made available lots ofactivities for free, which
actually was really good.
And we saw a huge uptick ofpeople being able to participate

(10:58):
in the sport at a grassrootslevel.
I want to make sure we're doingmuch more of that going
forward, and also that the sportis much more visible.
So we have our moment as asport because we're an Olympic
sport on the world stage everyfour years because of the way
broadcast works, because of thedomination of certain sports
like football and football.

(11:20):
Um, and obviously there'sthere's other sports as well.
But you know, triathlon doesnot get the visibility that a
lot of other sports do.
So for me, it's making surethat we try and build that
visibility before games and alsoafter the games in a way that
that make that makes bettersense.
And profiling the athletes,telling their stories in a more

(11:40):
comprehensive way, I think isreally important.
I love what is going on aroundthe rugby, the Women's Rugby
World Cup and the interest thathas been created, the social
media, the profiling of theathletes and everything as well.
And what that does is itcreates a real movement around
the sport.
And I think for me, how wetranslate that into triathlon, I

(12:04):
think is really key.
And then I think the otheraspect of it as well, you know,
financial sustainability isreally important for us as an
organization.
We have some fantastic partnersthat I think we could do
probably an even better job ofleveraging those partners,
giving the partnersopportunities around the games.
Obviously, there's restrictionsfrom a branding perspective,

(12:24):
but I think also how we leveragethat to also engage with new
partners going forward as well.

Claire Fudge (12:30):
Obviously, you you're talking there about LA,
and that's like the well, youknow, performance is already
planning, isn't it, for um forLA?
But with all of those thingsthat you were mentioning in
terms of partnerships, and youknow, I love this idea of you
know really getting the athletesout and actually people getting
to know them in terms of youknow those profiles.
I assume some of that is goingto be part of your plan and is

(12:51):
in the plan for LA.
But what in particular are youplanning to do with triathlon
for LA to make it even betterthan Paris?
And you know, how how do yousee, I guess, bringing triathlon
further forward, you know, withall of those goals that you've
talked about?

Ready for ready for LA.
Well, I keep on sort ofrepeating what I ultimately, my
vision of triathlon is that it'sin everyone's living room and
it's how media organizationstalk about their brands.
And because I've worked inmedia organizations, it's
basically how do we take thesport to being more mainstream
so that it's got morevisibility.
So when I say it's ineveryone's living room, I mean

(13:30):
that people are either watchingit, they're talking about it,
they're doing it, they'revolunteering in it, or they're
working in it.
And that I really genuinelybelieve that that's possible.
And for me, if you break downthe sport, it's swim, it's bike,
it's run, those are the threefundamental skills that children
need to be learning whenthey're younger.

(13:51):
And, you know, I would say as acountry, we've probably not
done so well on that foundation,in particular on the swimming
side of things.
But if we can get that bitright and create that foundation
to then show that the sport ismuch more accessible than than I
think some people believe.
And there's definitely a bunchof work that's being done that
is definitely doing that, then Ithink we can get more people

(14:15):
who genuinely think that thatit's an option as a sport and
that we break down thosebarriers around, well, you don't
need to have an expensive bike,you don't need to have an
expensive bunch of kit that sitsaround.
You know, there's a real bigmovement around secondhand
clothing and and so secondhandkit and sustainability, but also
how we can invest and make surethat more diverse communities

(14:40):
are able to access the sport andsee it.
You know, if you can't see it,you don't believe it and you
won't and you won't do it.
So there's all of those thingsthat we need to do.
I also think at the moment as asport and also from endurance
in general, there's some reallygreat activity that's happening
around the sport.
We've got commercial partnerslike the PTO, like Super Try,

(15:02):
and also more broadly in theendurance world.
I mean, look at the explosionin running that's happening,
that we can absolutely leverageand work together.
I've, you know, I'm incrediblycollaborative and I've been
having lots of greatconversations with Sam and
Michael at PTO and Super Try.
And I think if we work togetherand raise that conversation and

(15:22):
visibility, then I really thinkas as Alistair Brownie said to
Alex on his last lap, anythingis possible.

So no, I mean, there's there's so much to do,
it sounds like, in terms of youknow, trying to get all of that
that visibility.
And I can totally understand,you know, from a partnership
perspective, really trying tokind of you know raise that.
You talked about water qualityactually right at the very
beginning.
And I think we've all got astory to tell about water
quality in some shape or form.
But what are the questions onpeople's lips in terms of, you

(15:51):
know, is that already beingtalked about in LA?
I know it must be somethingthat's talked about, you know,
every time these athletes aretraveling, you know, water
quality is something they, Iguess, deal with.
But yeah, what are thequestions, what are the big
questions for for LA thatthey're that you're looking at?

Yeah, I think LA it's it's more around air
quality than than water quality.
So, you know, the pollutionthat's that sits around LA is is
kind of a big issue.
And with the water, it's it'sthe sea swim.
So the you know, the challengesaround the the waves and the
and and the current and andthings like that are probably

(16:29):
you know more prevalent actuallythan the than than the water
quality.
So always like to deal withdifferent things and have those
to deal with.
It would be boring if therewasn't something to be having to
figure out how you deal withit.
And interestingly, in Paris, sothere was lots of conversations
around the water quality, andwe know the huge investment that

(16:50):
Paris made in trying to improvethat.
And there are people who areswimming in the Seine this year,
so you know, I I thinkbrilliant that that they've done
that.
But actually, the the biggerissue that came up around the
Olympics was the the current andthe because of the rainfall and
the issues that that thencreated as well.
So, you know, you just gottayou just gotta work with it.

(17:11):
Some bits you can control andsome bits you can't.

And and water quality is something that's very
close to my heart because AIspend a lot of time down in
Cornwall.
Actually, our our house down inCornwall is in the same place
as surfers against sewage arebased, but there is regular
sewage let out into this intothe sea there, which obviously
is a problem if you've got a seaswim.
But I'm also going to swim LakeWindermere on Saturday, and I
am looking at the water qualitygoing, I'm not quite sure

(17:37):
whether this is a sensible thingto do or not.
So, what's British triathlon'sapproach to water quality as a
whole and working with othercompanies like surfers against
sewage or other other ones?
Is there any is there any rolefor British triathlon there?

Abs absolutely.
And I think this is down to therole of governing bodies now.
One one of the pieces for me iswe're there to represent our
members and the sport, andactually, our sport is so
dependent on the environment inwhich everybody participates.
So we need to have a voice inthat.
And when I think it was in Maylast year, we were one of the

(18:12):
founding governing bodies in theClean Water Sport Alliance, and
we've had huge success inreally raising the conversation
around water, water quality.
We've engaged with watercompanies to effectively lobby
and to try and createaccountability about that.
We've been, you know, in thecorridors of Westminster again,

(18:33):
influencing the regulations andlegislation that's sort of been
coming out around that as well.
We in permitting, we requirethat event organisers test the
water at certain times before anevent.
And it's you know, it's it'sincredibly important.
And I think that accountabilityaround the water companies is
incredibly important.

(18:54):
And if we can get them toactually engage and be positive,
and some of them are more, youknow, more willing to engage
than than others, you know,opening up reservoirs, for
example, I think is is a realsort of potential opportunity
for the sport to create anotheravenue for somewhere to swim.
But surface against sewage,they're very much the kind of

(19:14):
slightly more activist voicethat sits within there.
But we, you know, we're allkind of collaborating together
to make sure that those bluewater spaces in the future are
fit for purpose and that we canall go and go and swim in them.

Yeah, I mean, I I couldn't I couldn't agree
more because I think it's it'ssuch an important subject.
And in a in a day and age whereit should be getting better and
better, it seems to be gettingworse and worse, which is really
sad.
Now, I was lucky enough to bumpinto you and chat to you at the
Burley Multisport weekend,which is run by, you know, it's
one of my local races run bypaysetters.

(19:49):
And and that's a very differentformat that weekend because
there's everything from you knowaquabike to duathlon to swim
safaris to running, and it'slike a whole weekend.
There's stuff going on all overthe place.
In fact, at one stage, we wereactually going to do this
podcast live at BurleyMultisport, and then it the
logistics became a nightmare.

(20:10):
But what did you learn fromseeing an event in that format
with all of this other stuffgoing on?
And and do you think that has aplace in you know the triathlon
world in the future?

Absolutely.
I thought it was brilliant.
I love what Paul's doing thereat Pace Setter events, and I
guess he's sort of a bit of anew event organizer, so he's
prepared to innovate and trysomething a little bit
different.
It's a stunning venue as astarting point.
I think from memory we werelucky the weather was pretty
good as well.
But for me, bringing thatyou've got you've got your

(20:42):
purest triathletes who whoreally that's that's what
they've done for a long time, oror they love that part of the
sport.
But I think if we really wantto truly appeal to a broader,
you know, a broader church ofpeople and also bring people
into the sports and keep peopleinto the sport, I think having
this broader offer is reallyimportant.

(21:03):
Ultimately, it's about havingfun and it's about having that
experience that you kind of goaway and you go, oh my god, that
was absolutely brilliant.
I loved it, I'm gonna do itagain, or I'm going to bring my
friends to do it, or my family,or you've brought people with
you to watch you and they'vegone, this looks great, this
looks really good fun, or Ididn't think I could do it, but
actually I could go and do thatbit over there, and then maybe I

(21:26):
could do that bit over there.
So I think it's reallyimportant.
And, you know, the example thatI used with my nephew with the,
you know, the London event.
So someone who's who's beengoing, oh, I can't swim, or I'm
not very good, you know.
And then as soon as he sees theevent and he's participated in
it, his little competitiveelement nature comes out and
he's like, right, I'm gonna getsome swimming lessons and I'm

(21:47):
gonna do this next year.
And, you know, says, I'm gonnado the T100, I'm not just gonna
do a sprint distance as astarting point.
So I think how you bring peoplein is important, and also how
you keep people in.
So we know we've got an agingpopulation.
We know as people get older,you start having a few aches and
pains with your knees and yourhips and all that kind of thing.

(22:07):
But if people love being partof the community, what you don't
want is for them to say, Oh, Ican't do it anymore because I
can't run.
You've got an aqua bike,amazing.
Or if you've got somethinggoing on around an event, then
they can participate.
And so I think I think I thinkit's really, really important.
And for me, one of myobservations, I did my first

(22:28):
triathlon about 10 years ago.
And when I came back into thesport last year on the other
side, I was like, nothing reallyfeels like it's changed very
much on the event side.
And because I, you know, I'm abig festival goer, I'm a big
music fan, but also I've workedwithin an industry where that
entertainment piece is reallyimportant, just felt like a

(22:51):
world of Tarathlon was a littlebit behind the curve and has got
so much opportunity to reallybuild out that more experiential
kind of fun piece, festivaltype experience that you know,
that it's it's not just onething.
I think it's it's a multiplenumber of things without
detracting from the fact that,you know, Trathon sits at its

(23:15):
core.

I I love the idea of festivals.
I think there's quite a few,you know, the ultra-running
crowd and groups that have thesefestival weekends, aren't
there?
I think I've uh tended uhtended a few and spoken at a few
in the past, and they they'rejust such good fun.
Yeah.
Um, so I can really see howthis this kind of idea is going
to get lots of different peoplefrom different areas.
And also, I know we we spokeabout it briefly when when we

(23:36):
met, actually, but getting morewomen back into sport, you know,
this idea of having a weekendwhere maybe, you know, if mum's
got children, she can actuallygo and race, you know, whilst
there's other things for forpeople to do.
So I just I think it'sfantastic.
Obviously, now you're workingwith British triathlon.
Is this part of the bigger planin terms of you mentioned quite
a few things at the beginningof, you know, ways to get people

(23:59):
back into sport again?
Would you say this is one ofyour big goals?
You know, what are the big fivegoals for the federation?

It's really interesting.
We're literally just at thebeginning of a renewed strategy
planning process.
So if I say that now, then I'mkind of preempting what I think
the outcome of it will be.
But I think at a high level,given what we're here to do, of
course, we're here to grow thesport.
And that's about having morepeople doing the sport, but it's

(24:29):
also having a really healthyevents infrastructure that sits
around the sport, and also thatthere are, you know, volunteers,
technical officials, and thatalso the commercial business
that sits around the sport isalso thriving, you know, rather
than just hanging on, you know,that there's real, there's real
growth that that sits aroundthere.

(24:49):
Um for me, relevance andresonance are hugely important.
And sport is it's a verycompetitive landscape now.
And how people consume sport,how people do things in their
daily lives is very, verydifferent.
So for me, making sure that weare absolutely relevant to

(25:10):
people, that they understand oursport, and we're not just doing
the same thing that we used todo.
The, you know, the guys who'vedone the sport for 40 and 50
years, brilliant.
We still want them to be doingit, but we want that teenager
who's sitting there lookingacross at gravel bike racing or
skateboarding, going, oh, thatlooks a little bit cooler, maybe

(25:30):
I'll give that a go.
We want to have people going,oh, that looks cool because the
athlete's cool or because theexperience is cool or because it
looks fun.
So I think that is really,really important.
I also think as anorganization, you know, we're
here to be custodians of thesport, and that's not about just
sitting and letting it tickalong.
For me, that's about reallythinking about how you protect

(25:53):
it, how you grow it.
And that's about also thefinancial sustainability.
We are probably 50% governmentfunded across UK sport and sport
England, which is fantastic.
And we're really grateful tothem and the lottery, you know,
the lottery funds for the moneythat we that we get.
But really, we need to be lessdependent on that government

(26:16):
funding so that we have morerevenue coming in.
I'm never going to say no togovernment funding, but that as
a percentage of the overallrevenue stream, it's smaller
because that means it'sunrestricted and we can choose
how we want to invest it backinto the sport, which which is
really important, so that we aretruly focusing in on the sport

(26:37):
rather than sometimes what mightbe, you know, a kind of a
requirement of funding and stufflike that.
So yeah, and and then I'vetouched on it already, but that
bringing it more mainstream,there are still some perceptions
that need to be broken down.
And I think when everybodycomes into a triathlon event, or
whenever everyone has a go atit, or they come and watch it,

(26:59):
they leave with such a positiveexperience.
And it's just how do you spreadthat love?
How do you spread that thatkind of feeling and in and
enjoyment?
And so the role of media, andthere's so many different media
platforms now, how we engagewith those, how we storytell
around the sport is really,really important.

(27:21):
It's it's a pretty complexlandscape for someone who is
outside the sport.
You know, you've got all thesedifferent distances, you've got
World Triathlon series, you'vegot Cups, you've got Conti Cups,
you've got PTO, you've got IronMan.
Trying to build a story aroundthat is quite difficult.
So I think how we articulatethat so that people understand

(27:44):
how they can engage with it isimportant.
And then I think the five thefinal part of it, which is a bit
of a general box, is you know,there are a number of things,
and when we get on to yourquestion about books, there's a
book that I I kind of read awhile ago.
And I think organizations havea place to kind of help with
some of the challenges thatsociety faces.
And that's not to detract fromwhat we're here to do as an

(28:07):
organization, which is to, youknow, be custodians of the
sport, but with the challengesaround health, with the
fractions that we're seeingaround society and communities,
I really do believe that sporthas a role to help, you know, be
part of the solution to all ofthat.

(28:28):
So I think for me, figuring outwhat our role is in that going
forward, I think is reallyexciting.
And I think I go back to theit's swim, it's bike, it's run,
and then you wrap that in with acommunity.
So you have your threefundamental skills, you've got
your community's socialengagement and wellness that

(28:49):
sits around it.
And, you know, the the hubwithin a community that sits
around triathlon, I think couldbe a really powerful thing.

I think the the funding that you talked about is
is well, it's really crucial,but it's really interesting
about how you know that might, Iguess, evolve in terms of where
triathlon's going as well.
Um, so I guess I've got twoquestions with regards to
funding.
One you've dipped into actuallyjust there, but also at the
beginning, around trying to getdifferent people, different

(29:17):
backgrounds back in or intotriathlon from a funding
perspective?
How do you see that, both frompeople who may think you know
the barrier to coming intotriathlon is because of the
expense of a bike or travel orwhatever it might be?
How are British triathlon kindof looking at that in terms of
different communities kind ofcoming into sport from a

(29:37):
financial aspect?
Um, but then also from afinancial aspect, where do you
see kind of those otherpartnerships kind of coming in
to help British triathlon aswell?
Like what would be yourultimate partnership, I guess,
if I'm going to ask you thatquestion.

Okay.
So a couple of kind of thoughtprocesses there.
So I think there are a numberof communities that we we work
with.
There's, you know, I think onevery high profile one is Women
in Try.
Bianca is the chair of that andhas done incredible work in
terms of reaching out todifferent communities to bring

(30:12):
women from diverse backgroundsinto the sport and quite
incredible what she's achieved.
And then Nanu from Badu, who'salso done some incredible work
as well.
And there are some people outin the different communities who
are really, really well placedto do that.
So our role on that is tofacilitate, also to look at how
we can help with funding.

(30:33):
So we funded some coaches, forexample, to help women in try
and Badu to have some womenparticipating at London T100
actually this year.
So we're kind of still verymuch figuring that out, but
that's sport development.
You know, that's that's how wetry and get more people in.
We've also got some reallyexciting work going on at the
moment with David RossEducational Trust.

(30:55):
So David Ross, um, as you sureyou know, an incredibly
successful entrepreneur, but whopretty much loves triathlon,
but also has built theseincredible foundations.
And what what he would like tosee is that the that you don't
have to come from private schoolto become an Olympian, that you
know, those schools can createthe right environments and for

(31:16):
those.
We've been doing some reallyexciting work with some of the
academies to build sort of liketriathlon academies in in those
environments, still very much atthe early stages, but I think
we're really excited to seewhere where that might where
that might go.
And also, you know, in England,Scotland and Wales, you know,
eat each of each of those sortof parts of British triathlon

(31:37):
are all reaching out to localcommunities.
And in in England, SportEngland funds us for what they
call priority places, which isworking out, which is reaching
out to different communitiesthat ordinarily wouldn't be
getting supported forparticipating in sport and
everything.
It's really important thoughthat what we do actually
ultimately leads to people whoare able to participate in the

(32:00):
in the sport as as well.
And I think to your secondquestion around what would my,
you know, my ideal partner looklike, I think it's an amazing
opportunity for an organizationto get involved on social impact
work in terms of making thesport more accessible to younger

(32:20):
people and to and to help reachout to communities that might
not be able to do that.
You know, the supermarkets, thethe banks, everyone who's got
those national footprints, forthem to be able to reach out
into their local communities andto help support around health
and wellness, but also gettingmore kids active.

(32:42):
You know, the we know thefigures around kids acting in
activity are just appalling.
And I think everybody has arole to play in how in how you
get kids more active with theirfamilies as well.
So, yeah, any brands who wantto get involved, give me a
shout.

That sounds like a good pitch if ever I
heard one.
But what a brilliantopportunity because you know,
you're absolutely right.
You know, it's such a, youknow, we see it in different
areas of sport, but it's such alike this is a such a fantastic
way for young people to find acommunity as well as fitness and
experience so much.
So I can see it being a greatopportunity.

You know, there's there's obviously quite a lot
of, you know, the family unitlooks very different now.
And there are lots of differentways that I think kids and
families need to get supported.
And the previous structures andenvironments that maybe used to
provide that, they just don'tdo that anymore, you know,
including schools.
You know, the amount of sportthat kids are able to do in the

(33:46):
state sector is prettyappalling.
So, how we can try and helpwiden that is I think really
important.
It's incumbent on all of us whoare working in sport.
I think we all have a role toplay in that.

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree.
Now, where we met at thatdinner at the RAC Club months
and months ago, we also met JohnDutton, CEO of British Cycling,
who we've also had on thepodcast.
And we spent quite a lot oftime talking to him about what's
the culture and values thathe's sort of brought into
British cycling.
So I wanted to ask you aboutthat because kind of federations

(34:18):
thrive on shared values andculture.
So, what do you see as theculture and values of British
triathlon or where do you seethat going and under your tenor?

Great question.
And I I listened to John'spodcast.
He's always great on a podcast,isn't he?
And I also remember I think Ihad a really awful cough at that
dinner as well.
So there we go.
I I'm if in nothing butconsistence.
For me, it's it's reallyinteresting.
I've worked in lots and lots ofdifferent environments, and I
think culture is a really hardthing to kind of put your put

(34:50):
your arms around sometimes.
It's that intangible piece thatyou kind of go, I really loved
working there because this ishow I felt, and or I really
didn't like it there because ofthe behaviours and and
everything.
For me, having that reallyclear purpose as an organization
is absolutely the foundation ofwhat we what we need.
We're actually doing some workaround that at the at the

(35:12):
moment.
And it's just kind of just kindof going back and going, you
know, what are you all here for?
What are we all here to do?
Because connecting to thatpurpose is really important to
be able to build around that.
For me, of course, I want youknow, Bridge Triath wants to be
a place that people love to comeinto work and they, you know,

(35:32):
they've got good, good kind ofcolleagues and everything.
But for me, about the culturewill drive what we're able to
achieve as an organization.
And there's a lot of work, youknow, words around high
performing teams in the world ofsport as you as you would, you
know, envisage.
And but I think that can be notnecessarily consistent across
all the different organizations.

(35:54):
High performing might be in onepart of the organization, might
be in a in a different part ofthe organization, but aligning
everyone behind a really clearpurpose, but also having that
pace and resilience and agilityand preparedness to sort of test
and learn, not to be a littlebri a little bit brave in terms

(36:16):
of what you're doing and to movethe organization forward, I
think is really important and tocreate the right framework that
people feel that they can dothat, that they're not, you
know, that it's it's not a badthing if they make a mistake or
if they don't get somethingright, that it can be open and
transparent, and that everyoneis is able to be themselves at

(36:38):
work and with their colleagues.
Clearly, building a trustedenvironment is really, really
important.
And and that that doesn'thappen overnight.
And when you are leading anorganization through change,
which is definitely what I havebeen doing, I think you you can

(36:59):
see how people react throughthat change curve.
But you know, you've got yourgroup of people who are rushing
off and going, This is amazing,this is what I've been waiting
for.
I can't wait to get engagedwith technology, or I can't wait
to look at that really greatidea that we've gotten over
there.
And then you've got otherpeople like, oh, it's a little
bit scary, and oh, I'm out of mycomfort zone, and oh, I'm not

(37:21):
quite sure what this means to meand where it's going to take
take me.
So I think how you bring peopleon that journey is really
important.
Some people will embrace it,other people won't.
And that is all part of thenatural evolution of an
organization.
But it's bringing people withyou that I think is really
important.
And that curiosity and sort ofentrepreneurial spirit.

(37:44):
And I know you're going to askme about my kind of world
outside of sport and how that'smaybe in informed some of my
sort of thinking.
But I think I personally I'vealways had this real fear of
becoming pedestrian and just,you know, becoming a little bit
boring and you know, not sort ofnot being interested in doing

(38:05):
anything and having a sort of areal hunger to drive something
forward.
And I think that's reallyimportant when you are trying to
drive an organization forward.
And I think if you look atbrands that have waned, you
know, have been successful andit's waned and ebbed and
everything like that, it'salmost like you get to a stage
and you go, oh, I've done itnow, but you can never take your
foot off the pedal.

(38:26):
You need to be constantlythinking about what's next and
and how, yes, this is good, buthow can it be better?
And I know that can be quitetough for people because for
some people, good enough is goodenough.
But I think if you really wantto move to a high-performing
mindset, you do have to beconstantly thinking about how

(38:46):
you move on.

Yeah, no, brilliant.
Sort of leads me nicely ontoyour your your sort of uh
experience from the world of thelegal world and also the world
of of Super Dry.
So, what do you think thatprevious experience brings?
You know, what does that giveyou in in performing the role as
CEO of British Triathlon?

(39:08):
And and I suppose another wayof asking that is, you know, if
we're looking back from, youknow, looking back 20 years from
now, what's the legacy thatyou've created as a result of
that at British Triathlon?

Well, I saw the 20 years from now, I was thinking,
crikey, that'll be I and Ithought, God, I'm gonna be so
old then.
So I think I'll answer that bitfirst.
Clearly, I want to leave it ina better place than than when I
arrived.
And that's not because itwasn't in a good place, but it's
about that continuousimprovement and wanting to take
the organization forward.
But it's also about making surethat we are relevant and

(39:43):
resonating for the future of thesport and that it's set up for
fit for the future.
I think if you think about nextyear and the year after, you're
not really doing your job.
I think you do have to thinkabout in five years' time, what
does it look like?
In 10 years' time, what it whatdoes it look like?
I mean, you know, clearlythere's going to be so many
people who are doing triathlonand it's spoken about in lots of

(40:06):
different ways.
And everybody's gonna know whothe triathletes are around the
world.
And, you know, but there's lotslots of things that I think can
happen around the sport aswell, not just on that
performance side, because it'show it translates into what's
happening in communities and thegrassroots side of things as
well.
Um in France, triathlon is onthe school curriculum.

(40:28):
I would love triathlon to be onthe school curriculum.
I mean, that would betransformative, wouldn't it?
Rather than it being thatunique sport that only maybe you
do at Millfield or or somewherelike that.
So that's that's kind of thethe the sort of the thought
process on that.
In terms of my experience, I'veI have worked in so many

(40:49):
different types of environments.
I've worked in startups, I'veworked in scaling businesses,
I've worked around businessesthat are in turnarounds, I've
worked in businesses that areprivate equity backs, I've
worked in businesses that havebeen high growth environments.
I've also worked at Super Dryin a very distressed environment

(41:10):
as well.
And all of those differentenvironments teach you so many
different things about what canhappen to an organization, and
you just take bits from thoseenvironments and you take bits
from the people that you'veworked with as well.
The you know, well, if I wasCEO, I wouldn't want to behave
like that, or if I was CEO,that's a great kind of style

(41:32):
that I really like, or I reallyloved how that person did those
different things.
And I've worked in differentindustries as well.
So, yes, I spent a long time inmy career in the legal
profession, but I worked inprivate practice, but also in a
number of other differentorganizations, and I had very
global roles.
So I had teams sitting aroundthe world, and what that has

(41:54):
taught me is around thatcultural piece that sits around
organizations, which, althoughBritish triathon is obviously
Britain, what I've learned is onthe international stage that
it's a really useful tool tohave, you know, that I've I've
worked with people over inAmerica, in Asia, in the Middle
East, and that culturalawareness is really, really

(42:16):
important.
Super Dry, I had the pleasureof working with Julian
Dunkerton.
So Julian Dunkerton foundedSuper Dry, he's one of the
founders of Super Dry.
And Super Dry, when it wasfounded, was was the fastest
growing fashion brand, and itgrew to 1.8 billion in a very
short, very short space of time.
And it then fell from fell fromgrace as everyone saw it, it

(42:37):
became a public company, andthen it became mainstream.
David Beckham was very sort ofinfluential in the success of
the brand before influencerswere were influencers.
Julian came back into thebusiness.
I was part of the newmanagement team to join there.
I joined the business inturnaround just before COVID,
which was a really tough gig towalk into, in particular in the

(43:00):
role that I was, I was I was in.
But when you work with someonewho has got such a vested
interest in that organizationand who has got it literally
running through his blood like astick of like a stick of rock,
you really see someone whofights and cares for what they

(43:20):
believe in and how they canthink differently and pivot.
And I'm fortunate to haveworked with a number of
entrepreneurs, and there is aninsight and a behavior that they
bring that is very different toa very corporate type of CEO.
And you learn so much from thatin terms of how you really dig
deep or think differently.

(43:41):
Yeah, so I I've taken so manydifferent different things from
that.
Resilience also being one ofthe key elements, uh, I would
say as well.

I I've learned a lot more than I thought I knew
about you in terms of all thedifferent places that you've
that you've worked.
And like, yeah, amazing howthat can all come together and
an impact on what you're doingwith British Triathlon.
I want to go back to somethingthat you mentioned actually
right at the very beginning.
You mentioned T100 a couple oftimes and partnerships and
British Triathlon being on thestage, you know, just once in

(44:11):
four years.
How do you foresee, if if youforesee that, how do you foresee
British Triathlon potentiallysort of working alongside some
of these much bigger brands, youknow, like you know, T100,
Super Tri, Iron Man.
Is that where you're thinkinghow British Triathlon can kind
of fit into that uh spacesomehow?

Yeah, so I think I mean it's quite interesting
because major events, when we'veheld major events in the UK
before, um obviously we've beenfunded by UK Sport, but British
triathlon has done the deliveryof those events itself.
It means that all of the risksits with the organization.
It also means that the the kindof the funding and everything
sits with the organization andthe whole risk sits around it.

(44:53):
I've done some work, we we'vekind of been reviewing our major
event strategy, and it's reallyclear to me that there's a
different operating model thatwe need to have going forward
around major events.
We don't have to do everything,but if we can find the right
people to partner with who candeliver those events and
actually are maybe better placedto help raise the profile of

(45:17):
the sport with us sort ofworking alongside them.
There are a number of otherreally amazing event organizers
in, you know, in this country aswell, who actually are
perfectly capable of delivering,you know, World Cups, Conti
Cups, as well as a WorldChampionship series.
So I would envisage workingmore with those who are

(45:39):
delivering great eventexperiences going forward.

Brilliant.
And you also mentioned right atthe start about gender equality
and and trying to bring morefemales into sport.
How is British triathlon doingthat?
But also, how important do youthink diversity of thinking is
in in business as well as kindof equality in sport?

Yeah.
So start with the firstquestion.
So we definitely want morewomen doing triathlon.
We want more of everybody doingtriathlon.
But if you look at the stats ofwomen participating in
triathlon, right at the lowerend, there's more women than
than men who participate.
And then as you gradually goup, and it's linked to the

(46:23):
distances and the time taken totrain and and also the
experience I think that peoplehave around events, then you end
up with a shift that probablymoves to about 35% women to 65%
men participating.
So I see that as realopportunity that sits around the
sport.
There's a number oforganizations like Sophie Powell

(46:46):
at Shoe Races and also BiancaWomen in Try, who've done some
great work on saying to eventorganizers.
They've done research, but alsosaying to event organizers, if
you do these things, then yourevent will become more
accessible to women and theywill more likely participate and
that will translate into morerevenue for you.
So there's a social impactelement, but there is a there is

(47:09):
a business reason why you wouldwant to have more women
participating in your sport.
And also, you know, what I'vesaid to people is women spend
money.
So women go shopping and theyspend money.
And actually, if you want tohave a bit of that, you know,
that kind of purse, then youneed to kind of get get them
involved in the in the sport aswell.
So it's really, it's reallyimportant.

(47:31):
But it's equally important thatwe have, as I say, as many
people from lots of differentbackgrounds being able to
participate in the sport aswell.
We did a campaign earlier on inthe year, which Vicki Hollands,
as you know, is our doubleOlympian and you know, hugely
successful triathlete who's justannounced her retirement.
Um, she came back frompregnancy and she finished

(47:52):
fourth last year in the WorldChampionship series and won the
European um championship eventin Vichy, which was amazing.
She's an incrediblespokesperson for the sport, but
also advocating for women andhas been very instrumental in
having a pregnancy policy forwomen on the elite side of
things coming back into thesport as well.
So there's there's lots ofinitiatives that are happening,

(48:15):
definitely more that we can wecan do.
And I want our female athletesto have more of a profile and to
have more of a voice on that aswell.
It's really, really important.
Um, in terms of how diversityof thought feeds into um better
business decisions, I mean, thisis something I've been banging
a drum on this for God knows howlong.
The you know, the McKinseystudy that comes out every year

(48:36):
is very well versed inarticulating the when the
perform the businesses that havemore diverse thinking and in
and decision making, theyperform better.
There is an actual, you know,real link to better performing
businesses that that sit there.
It's really important.
Being in a room where there'san echo chamber or there's group
think just does not reallybring in the right thought

(49:00):
processes, consider all of theright stakeholders, and actually
enable you to move move thingson.
I've been in environments wherewhere that exists and it's not
helpful to try and move anythingon.
You need to make sure you'vegot the right voices in the room
representing the right people,but also being able to challenge

(49:20):
and be able to bring differentthinking around the table.
Those different perspectivesare really, really important.
So yeah, absolutely key.

Was that the summary?
Women are key.
I think that's what you came tosurmise.
Charlie's not speaking, so I'llI'll go for it.
You're a triathlete yourself.
Can you share a story with us?
You know, maybe a story that isthat most stands out for you.
That could be something thatwas particularly memorable
because it was such a horrendousday, or it could be like one of

(49:51):
your best supportingachievements.
And has your background indoing triathlon actually
influenced how you now think andwork with the athletes now?

Yeah, I think I think it would be very generous
of me to say it's influenced howI work with the athletes.
I think the performance guyswould kill kill me if I said
that that was anything to dothere.
So I did triathlon because II've always been a reasonably
good swimmer and I've alwaysquite fancied the idea of doing
one.
But running has been mynemesis.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not arunner.
I I, you know, was at schoolwhere they never really taught

(50:23):
you how to run.
And so if you weren't fast,then that was it.
You were left by the by thewayside.
So I just got to an age and Ijust thought, right, what's my
next challenge?
I like to have a challenge.
And I had some time to sort ofthink about it.
Very fortunate to live in theCotswolds.
Lots of people do triathlonsaround here.
So I thought, right, I'm in theperfect environment to do a
triathlon.
And and I trained for it and Idid it with some friends

(50:45):
locally, and that sense ofachievement when I'd done it was
incredible.
And also, as you guys know,when you say to someone you've
done a triathlon, everyone'slike, oh my god, that's amazing.
And we all know, yes, it'samazing, but we all know that
most people could do one if theyput their mind to it, and it's
not that, not that incredible.

(51:06):
But I have used triathlon as away to also raise money for
various causes.
And I think that to me has beenit's been a motivator, but it's
also something, as well as yourpersonal achievement and doing
that challenge, it's also beenabout I've actually raised some
money to help support, forexample, Break Roman Street or

(51:28):
you know, another charity whichrelated to something personal
that had happened to one of myfriends.
So I think those are themoments that uh really care.
And my mother, who, you know,she's no longer with us, but I
remember when I'd done my firsttriathlon and then she went into
a care home and she just kepton telling everyone that I'd I
don't know, the the length ofthe triathlon kept on getting

(51:49):
longer, and I kept on havingdone more and done faster and
stuff like that was great.
And then I think the otherpiece for me, my partners took
this photograph of me.
And I I kind of I go backwardswhen I do a triathlon.
So I'm not too bad on the swim,my bike's all right, but then I
start going backwards in therun effectively.
And so I did London a few yearsago, and he got me, he got a

(52:11):
picture of me overtakingsomeone.
I would say that the chap I wasovertaking was probably about
90, but I was like, I'movertaking someone.
This is great.

I I think what you've just described though
sums up why triathlon is sospecial, isn't it?
Is it's that feeling ofachievement.
The person that crosses thefinish line is never the same as
the person that at the crossedthe start line, but also that
ability to use it for good andto go beyond your own
achievement, but to raise moneyfor other things.
And I love it, you'reabsolutely right.
Most people could do atriathlon.

(52:40):
I remember interviewing BobBabbitt and him saying about it
was some story about this guythat just done his first ever
sprint triathlon.
And then somebody mentionedIron Man.
He said, Yeah, it's basicallyexactly the same as what I've
just done, maybe a little bitlonger, but yeah, it all just
gets rolled into one, doesn'tit?

I mean, I see 100 this year.
I was I was hanging around nownear the British triathlon
stand, and there was this guythere, and he was sat in one of
our tech chairs.
And I was just like, you know,you're right.
He said, Yeah, I've just doneit.
He said, Had a new hit lastyear, didn't think I'd do one of
these again.
It's like how amazing.
But that personal challenge andthat individual achievement is
something that really runs deep,I think, across across the

(53:17):
sport.
And I think the other piece forme, it's really important.
Last year, when I did, youknow, got my role at British
triathlon, I thought, right,I've got I really need to be
doing a triathlon this year.
And I wasn't, and I had thisgot this going on, and I had
loads of travel.
I thought, right, I'm gonna doBlenheim.
And I got my niece to do itwith me, and I got my
stepdaughter to do it with me.

(53:38):
And they've both got into andso that inspiration piece is is
kind of really important aswell, and showing it's it's
possible.
I think that activity as youget older is is so important.
So yeah, it's lots lots ofdifferent reasons why you can do
it, and what and lots ofdifferent things that you can
gain from it as well, I think.

Yeah, yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
And earlier on, you alluded tothe fact that I was going to ask
you about books.
So you kept a particular book,you kept it from us.
So, what books have you foundhelpful on your journey?
Whether it's to do with sport,whether it's to do with
business, what books do you findyourself recommending to other
people?

Yeah, I increasingly that as I get
older, I forget the names of thebooks and the authors of those
books as well.
So it's been actually a good, agood memory job for me as well.
I mean, I've I've read so manybooks over the years and yeah,
met read lots of management kindof pieces, but I kind of find
that I don't necessarily taketoo much away if it's a bit too

(54:37):
bit too corporate.
The book that I referred to,which is called The Activist
Leader, and it it sort of talksabout the need for a new mindset
doing doing business, and ittalks about what I alluded to
earlier about all of thechallenges that society is
facing into the increasing roleof organizations to play in

(55:01):
having a voice and helping to bepart of the solution rather
than just sitting by the waysideas well.
And I think if anyone'slistening to this podcast who's
worked with me over the last 18months, they know that I like a
little bit of a disruption inthe room and happy to sort of

(55:21):
challenge the status quo and thecomplacency piece is something
that I find quite frustrating.
But I think really how we lookat things and think through
things differently is really,really important.
So I I read it a couple ofyears ago.
I I sort of took quite awayfrom that and dusted it off when

(55:41):
I sort of started, started lastyear.
I mean, you know, legacy is isa great book, isn't it?
And there's so many elementsyou can you can draw from that
in terms of culture and teambuilding and legacy and and
things like that.
But I very much love LindaLePlant.
So I love a murder, I love adetective story, and maybe

(56:04):
that's the lawyer in me comingcoming out, and John Grisham.
I've probably read all of thosebooks just because you don't
really have to think too hardand you just just read them.
Barack Obama's autobiographywas pretty special, and Nelson
Mandela, Long Walks of Freedom,really, really powerful.
And I am Pilgrim, I think, isone of the most beautiful books
that I've that I've ever read aswell.

(56:24):
So quite quite a few.
But there's one book, and I'veactually got it sat by me here
now, and it was a book that Ihad put together from for my
father in the last few years ofhis life.
So my my father was born inBurma, um, so I'm I'm mixed
race, and he never spoke abouthis kind of childhood and his

(56:49):
experiences of being in Burmawhen he when he was a child,
because he was he was there whenthe Japanese invaded, and so he
became a child of war, arefugee as in Burma, and sort of
for four or five years of hislife, they were kind of lost in
that in that in that world.
He never spoke to us as afamily on that growing up, never

(57:11):
referenced it.
And it it happens to quite alot of first generation
immigrants who come over becausethey're normally leaving
something quite quite negative.
And towards the end of my mumand dad's life, I was I had this
book process going with my mum,and I just sort of said to Dad,
Do you, you know, do you wantto do a story of your life?
And he, to my amazement, said,Yes, I do.

(57:31):
So it was quite incrediblelistening to him talking to the
lady who did the, she was ajournalist, stroke historian,
and managed to pull this amazingstory out.
And it's and it's called FromBurma to Britain.
And there are so many thingsthat I have taken from it in
terms of being able tounderstand my father, but

(57:52):
understand the culture in whichhe grew up, which then
translated into how I wasbrought up, which again, growing
up in a mixed kind of mixedrace household can be quite
challenging.
And also, it can also challengeyour identity as well.
And especially when I wasgrowing up in the 70s, and with,
you know, my brother and Idefinitely were, you know,

(58:15):
recipients of racist abuse andeverything growing up as well.
And actually, it helped framesome of that as as well.
But how he moved from hischildhood to then coming out of
the war, and he had decided hewants to be a doctor because of
some engagements he'd had withpeople during the war, to then

(58:35):
catch up on his education, tothen qualify as a doctor, and
then come over to Britain and todo what he did, just the
resilience and the focus and allof those things are quite
incredible, and the forgivenessthat sat with him as well as a
human being.
So that is a book that I drawquite a lot of inspiration from.

I can see it, how inspiring it is for you,
just seeing you talk about it.
But what's what's reallyfascinating is we our last guest
was Sean Conway, the amazingendurance adventurer that's done
105 Iron Man's in 105 days,swam from Landsend to John of
Ghost, all of these crazy stuff.
And we were talking at the endof the episode with him about

(59:20):
the next book he's written,writing.
He's written eight books, buthe's writing a book that's for
his grandchildren, telling thestories of what his life was
like when he was growing up,because he says, you know,
otherwise these stories will getlost.
Now you've just told theopposite end of what that you've
just told it from the child'spoint of view, going, This is

(59:43):
unbelievable.
You know, you've just listed awhole load of books which were
really brilliant and reallyhelpful, but you never showed
the emotion that you could yougot.
Think that's amazing.
And and I I've said to so manypeople over the years, you
should write your own bookbecause of what it leaves by.
Behind for other generations.
It's absolutely brilliant.
And that leads me nicely on tothe final piece of the podcast,

(01:00:07):
which is where we get the lastguest to ask the next guest a
question without knowing whothat is going to be.
Obviously, I've just mentionedit was Sean Conway, and I think
Claire has got Sean's questionlined up.

Claire Fudge (01:00:19):
So do you think the advancement of AI will
increase or decrease the amountof people participating in
endurance sports?

Ruth Daniels (01:00:27):
Interesting question.
Fortunately, I love technologyand I'm all about how we can
embrace it both in our sport ormore broadly.
I think it's going to besomething that is going to sit
around the sport, whichultimately should probably drive
more people doing the sport.
I think the way that it's isgoing to be able to enhance

(01:00:48):
training and how people engagearound the sport, but also how
AI as I as it pushes events out,enables people to see better
where they could do an event, orthere's going to be more
targeted around their events andeverything as well.
I think is is going to bethere.
I would say that it's going tosit alongside everything else

(01:01:08):
that's happening around thesport.
It's not on its own going to bedriving, be driving that.

Charlie Reading (01:01:14):
I think it's a really interesting question.
So when he sent me thatquestion, I was like, well, what
do you think, Sean?
Because I think it's afascinating question.
I agree.
I think so.
I already have building mytraining program.
But where I it took me as wellwas if AI frees up more time
away from work, because AI doesmore of our work, we get more

(01:01:34):
leisure time and therefore moreopportunity to do triathlon.

Yeah, I love thinking.
Although in the world, all Isee is creating more work, you
know, the volume of emails thatwe know.
Now we don't just have emails,we have WhatsApp groups, we have
loads of messages coming infrom lots of different platforms
and everything.
So is it something?
Is it just going to load moreinformation into our world that
means that we we we can't go offand do our training and

(01:01:59):
everything?
Or is AI going to be doing myjob so I can be sitting there
going, next time, Charlie, I'vedone 10 triathlons because I've
had so much time to be able totrain for them and I'm feeling
really good about where I'm at?

I I I think those that embrace it will get
more of their time back.
But equally, will it be likethere's already talk about how
people are thinking less becauseChat GPT can do their thinking?
So will that be a detriment,you know, will they spend more
time watching TV and filmsbecause they don't have to do
that.
Well, I don't know.

That is that is a really relevant conversation.
But I think the the the use ofAI on its own, there is that
human intervention that I thinkis still needed, and it's how it
enhances what we do as well.
But I I've noticed that thatlack of ability to think.
We were talking about it in thecontext of CVs the other day,
in terms of how do you reallyidentify, you know, before

(01:02:51):
people would write in a letter,they send in a CV, and you could
distinguish between peoplewho've got good writing skills
or they research the interview.
Now, if everyone's shovingeverything into AI, then you're
ending up with a prettyubiquitous set of applications
or CVs to look at.
So, how does that evolve?
How you then assess the peoplewho are applying for the jobs?

(01:03:13):
Do you have a different processto what you used to normally
have?
And how do you distinguishbetween it as well?
So that human element is reallyimportant.
The bit that I think is quiteinteresting is I don't know
whether you saw the roboticOlympics that were in China a
few weeks ago.
That scared the living daylightout of me when I saw the click

(01:03:35):
where the robot pushed a mandown on the ground.
And I don't know whether that'sbecause he just got in the way
or whether he was actually beingreally competitive and just
getting someone out of his way.
I was thinking, is that robotthinking now?

Or did they all win?

Yeah.

All the robots were.

Quite a lot of them broke, you know, there was
pictures of them breaking down,falling over, people coming and
scooping them up, but that therewere some that were properly
racing around as well.

I do think it's Claire, where are your thoughts
on does AI lead to more or lesstraveling?

I can see both sides.
One of my as you were talking,I was thinking there are so many
people still since COVID thatare still in the what you know,
the AI virtual world of racingtraining.
I was just speaking to a coupleof people last week, and a lot
more people are not going outcycling.
They go, Oh, yeah, but I'm juston, you know, you know, on
Zwift in in the evening orwhatever, or at the weekend.

(01:04:27):
So I think there's always alsothat side.
Like people really enjoyedthose challenges and races, you
know, during COVID that theycould do on AI.
So yeah.

And and and when Zwift becomes virtual
reality, when you're with whenyou've got a headset on and you
can see the cyclists around you,again, maybe who knows?
I don't know whether that ismore trathlon or less trathlon,
but yeah, it's it's yeah.

Well, it's a bit like electric bike.
So New Zealand, they in one oftheir mass participation events,
they they said if you've got anelectric bike, you can bring it
along.
Because obviously they weretrying to improve accessibility.
You can imagine how the purestcore of the sport reacted
reacted to to that piece.

So well, there I mean there, yeah, but that but
there's there's there's nowmountain bike racing.
We talked about with TracyMosley about mountain bike
racing with an e-bike.
So yeah, it's just anotherequivalent of the aqua bike,
isn't it?
It's another variation.
But um Ruth, it's beenabsolutely fascinating chatting
to you.
Really like like the Paris wasan amazing experience from a

(01:05:32):
triathlon point of view.
What a great start you got offto.
If LA lives up to that, thenwe'll we'll all be extremely
happy, I think.
But also, I think justsupporting the the community of
triathlon, bringing more andmore people in, making it more
accessible, more like you know,like the Burley multi-sport
weekend that we talked about,and making it like a proper
experience where it brings thecommunity together.

(01:05:54):
I think that's where the futureis.
And and it's amazing to hearthat that's what you've got in
my info British triathlon.
So thank you very much and andkeep up the great work.

Absolutely.
Thank you very much for havingme.
I've very much enjoyed it.

So, what did you make of the chat with Ruth
Daniels from British Triathlon?

Well, it's it's really exciting, actually, to
you know, obviously it's both ofour sport in terms of
background, and it's reallyinteresting to hear, you know,
the potential of where she'sgoing and thinking in terms of
the British triathlon.
And it's also interesting tolike hear her recognize that the
sport needs a shakeup in termsof different types of people

(01:06:31):
coming back into the sport orcoming into the sport and how
they're going to do that.
Because it sounds like aactually a big challenge in
terms of you know, commercialsponsorship or you know, having
partnerships set up, the idea ofevolving involving different
communities and bringing umpeople from different social

(01:06:52):
backgrounds in.
I love the idea.
It's it seems like a hugechallenge in terms of bringing
all these parts in.

Well, I mean, I agree.
So when I was at where so wehad a conversation at Burley
Multisport Weekend with Paulfrom Pace Setters, Ruth, and and
I was just I'd introduced them,so I was kind of there.
And Paul was like, it's so, youknow, we've put on this great
event, it's over the wholeweekend.
There's so many people, so manydifferent events.
And getting getting people justto turn up and sell food here

(01:07:24):
is really difficult.
He said, you know, we we had anumber of stands that people
they'd said they were turningup, a glorious sunny weekend,
and then they just didn't eventurn up what the week, you know,
just didn't show.
And I think so.
One of the things that thatlike that British triathlon
could be doing is saying, well,look, we can bring, we can be

(01:07:44):
the conversation with the biggerpartner, and then then that
happens across a multitude oftriathlons that are organized by
lots of different raceorganizers.
So I think that there's a greatrole for that because I think
the festival vibe is such a coolway to embrace triathlon or
ultra running or anything alongthose lines.
I think I was chatting tosomebody that went to the one,

(01:08:06):
which whose name escapes me atthe moment, which was a running
festival.
She just couldn't couldn'tspeak highly enough of it.
And I think that's that's sucha cool, cool way of doing
endurance sport, isn't it?
Bringing the communitytogether.

And I think bringing that, you know, she
talked about, you know, tryingto get more women, you know,
into sport, which is a bigproblem in any sport you look
at, certain age, you kind oflose a whole load of women.
And so I love that idea of one,you know, that she's really
engaging with different groups,isn't she, in terms of trying to
get women kind of intotriathlon.
But also that idea of thoseevents, I think is brilliant

(01:08:43):
because you can come come along,there's lots of things if
you've got children for them tobe doing that you can go and do
something.
Um, so a really great idea.

And the and the I was sorry, I was gonna say,
just to on that same subject,that what she's what she
believes and is trying to bringinto the boardroom based on that
same learning is you know,actually, the bit the boardroom
is a better place when we havemuch more diversity of thinking
as opposed to groupthink, whereyou know, everyone on the board
is from the same background,from the same gender, etc.

(01:09:12):
etc.
So I think that's reallypowerful from a business point
of view as well.
But sorry, you were gonna saysomething else.

I can't remember what I was gonna say, but I will
go on to something else.

Um so what else did you learn?

Yeah, I I think it's always really interesting,
isn't it, when you hear wherepeople have come from in terms
of backgrounds, sport, but also,you know, their experience in
different companies.
And, you know, although I'ddone some research before
speaking to it, actually, therewas a wealth of things that
she's done, different, you know,businesses she's worked in, her
backgrounds.
And I think that's going to bereally interesting to kind of

(01:09:46):
see that in a few times takingshape in terms of her background
and experience and what thatbrings to triathlon, like how
does it shape it?
You know, because she wastalking about shaking things up
a little bit within within thesport.
And and yeah, making it makingit more commercial, more fun,
more viewed.
So I I think I think it's ahuge challenge, but I think, you

(01:10:08):
know, I think it's going toreally bring triathlon,
hopefully, to where it needs tobe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I agree.
The other thing that I tookfrom this was the most animated,
the most excited, the mostemotional she got was when she
talked about the book that waswritten about her father.
I think that really stood outto me.
And I and I think so.
When I was writing my firstbook, I said, if nobody reads
this except my children or mygrandchildren, it will have been

(01:10:34):
worth all the effort.
And it took me three years.
It, you know, it my later bookstook me a fraction of that
time.
But it is such a valuableexercise, not just from a
business point of view, not justfrom your children's point, but
like, I know we spoke to SeanConway about this as well, but
it's just really brilliant tosee of all those amazing books
she'd read, the one that clearlymade her far more emotional,

(01:10:58):
made far greater impact was theone about her family.
And and and that's why it's sobrilliant for for you guys that
are listening to to write a bookthat can get down some of those
stories.
Because yes, you can use it inbusiness in a fantastic way.
You know, it positions you asthe expert, it's a great way of
you getting it, getting you inthe media, it's something you
can give away to in exchange formarketing to somebody.

(01:11:22):
It's all of those great reasonswhy writing a book.
But the other reason which wedon't really talk about so much
is this legacy that it passeson, that those stories that are
woven into that book will bereally valuable to your
children, your grandchildren,and every generation thereafter.
So I think that that was just abrilliant takeaway for me.
I love I loved listening to hertalk about that book from Burma

(01:11:43):
to Britain.
Any final takeaways withregards to you know any anything
that Ruth talked about, really?

I think watch this space in terms of from now
until LA.
I I think we're gonna see a lotmore happening in the
community.
And I'd love to see this sidedeveloping out in terms of the
health, like health and howthey're gonna bring triathlon,
you know, working with schools,working with communities.
Like I think we're gonna seesee this emerging over the next,
you know, over the next fewyears.

Yeah, I agree.
And and also I think the so thelast thing for me was how she
has taken the her learning fromall of those different corporate
roles.
And you could see when westarted talking about culture,
values, legacy, all of that sortof stuff.
She's like, this is stuff we'reworking on now.
Because I suppose she came intothis role.
She's like, right, we've justgot to focus everything on

(01:12:34):
Paris.
And now we can focus on thekind of my corporate experience
and saying, right, this is howwe craft and document and
clarify what our culture is andwhat our values are and what the
purpose is.
So I think that's reallyinteresting that she's going
through that.
And again, that's a greatlesson that any business owner
can learn.
It's really powerful onceeveryone knows what it means to

(01:12:55):
be a part of that organization.
So really fascinating chat withRuth Daniels.
And for everyone at home, keepon training.

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From Paris Grit To An LA Vision: What Happens When Sport Becomes A Community Engine With Ruth Daniels

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