Jo's Journey: From Farm to Professional Triathlete and Coach

Welcome to The Business of Endurance, where we explore the mindset, strategies, and stories of the world’s most extraordinary athletes and coaches. Today, we have a truly remarkable guest: Jo Spindler, one of the most respected figures in triathlon, both as a former professional athlete and now as a world-class coach. Jo's journey is filled with lessons that will inspire and equip you, whether you're an athlete pushing your physical limits or a professional seeking endurance in your personal and business life. In this episode, Jo opens up about the pivotal moments that shaped his career, the highs and lows of turning pro, and the priceless lessons learned from his time under legendary coach Brett Sutton. We dive deep into his unique coaching philosophy, the secrets behind guiding athletes like Rico Bogen to world championship & T100 victories, and game-changing innovations in the world of sport and coaching. There really are some phenomenal insights within this conversation with, Jo Spindler.

Highlights:
 - Transition to Triathlon
 - Diverse Athletic Background
 - Professional Highlights and Challenges
 - Coaching Philosophy and Experience
 - Insights on AI and Technology in Sports
 - Success with Athlete Rico
 - Impact of T100 on Triathlon
 - Professionalism and Broadcast Quality
 - Future of Triathlon
 - Off-Season Strategies for Athletes
 - Innovations in Cycling Biomechanics
 - Philosophical Influences on Coaching
 - Dealing with Fear of Failure

Links:
Connect with Jo Spindler on Instagram & Web.

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Episode Transcript

Jo Spindler (00:04):
That was a very big lesson to respect your body and
do smart decisions when youprepare for a race.

Charlie Reading (00:14):
Welcome back to the Business of Endurance
podcast, where we explore themindset, strategies and stories
of the world's mostextraordinary athletes and
coaches.
Today, we have a real treat foryou.
We have a truly remarkableguest, joseph Spindler, one of
the most respected figures inthe world of triathlon, both as
a former professional athleteand now as a world-class coach.

(00:37):
Joe's journey is filled withlessons that will inspire you
and equip you, whether you're anathlete pushing your physical
limits or a professional seekingendurance in your personal and
business life.
In this episode, joe opens upabout the pivotal moments that
shaped his career, the highs andthe lows of being a pro and the
priceless lessons learned fromhis time under legendary coach

(01:00):
Brett Sutton.
We also dive into his uniquecoaching philosophy, the secrets
behind guiding athletes likeRico Bogan to world championship
and T100 victories, andgame-changing innovations in the
world of sport and coaching.
There really are somephenomenal insights within this

(01:21):
conversation with Joe Spindler.
Joe, welcome to the Business ofEndurance podcast.
I know we're going to begleaning a lot of wisdom from

(01:42):
you over the course of thisepisode, and I know you've had a
really exciting 48 hours, soI'm really looking forward to
talk about that.
But I always like to startthese interviews going back to
the roots, and because I wasn'table to listen to any other
episodes of you doing a podcastin English.
I don't know much about yourroots, so tell me what your
early sporting life was like andwhere did your sporting career
begin.

Jo Spindler (02:02):
Yes, thank you for the invitation.
Really happy to be on the show.
I started especially mytriathlon life.
I started really late.
I think I did my firsttriathlon with 21 or 22.
And before I grew up on a farm,my parents had a farm.
We were six kids I was theoldest one so I was used to just

(02:24):
work physically hard on thefarm and I really liked that.
The harder the better.
I really liked that.
And then obviously I was intosoccer and it was quite good.
I could run very fast.
So my strategy always was inthe soccer to just kick the ball
to the front and then run afterit and then put it in the goal
of the other team.

(02:45):
And that worked very well to acertain age because I was such a
fast runner, yeah.
And then I did some mountainbiking at that time because when
I grew older and I was quiteinjured a lot from the soccer
because I was fast and some ofthe opponents were quite slow
and they instead of hitting theball, they hit my feet and then

(03:07):
you have all those injuries andI was really tired at some point
of that.
And then I found into mountainbiking, which if I crashed it
was my fault and I did also dowell there.
I raced Bundesliga a little bitand then turned into the longer
distances.
At that time marathons in theAlps came up and I liked that.
By that time I started inBerlin and I saw the marathon

(03:32):
there and I thought this isreally great, I want to join
there too.
And then I did my firstmarathon.
Obviously, I tried it one year,then obviously got injured
because I did too much too early.
And then in the second attemptI got not injured and around 250
something.
And then I thought, okay,that's great, I like long
distances on the bike, I'mobviously good in running, so I
need to combine those two andlet's find a sport where I can

(03:56):
do those two sports.
And then, yeah, I thought, okay, triathlon is perfect, I have
to learn swimming, because upthat point I never swam, I
couldn't swim.
So then I decided to learnswimming and then, at the age of
22, I did my first triathlon.
So I did an Olympic.
Then a couple of weeks later Idid a half.
So that was my way intotriathlon.

(04:16):
Wow.

Charlie Reading (04:17):
There's a lot to explore there, but I suppose
the question that immediatelycomes up and I know we've talked
about this with a few otherathletes, heather Jackson being
one that springs to mind DavidEpsine has a book called range
and he talks about how, insteadof niching down too early, the
breadth of experience fromdifferent things whether that's
sport or business or whatevercan actually really help create
a different type of athlete.

(04:38):
Do you think that diversitythrough football and mountain
biking and and marathon runningand all of this sort of
different stuff helped you whenyou came to triathlon later on?

Jo Spindler (04:47):
To a certain extent , yes.
So when I train young athleteskids or young athletes I always
tell them to not specialize toomuch too early.
Speaking about that, I reallyregret or I'm really sorry that
I didn't learn, or I didn't havethe opportunity to learn,
swimming in an earlier age,because this is really a very

(05:08):
tough burden to learn swimminglate and then want to perform on
a really good level intriathlon.
So that is something.
When I talk to parents or youngkids I say please learn to swim
, do things which arerhetorically where you really
learn something, because it's somuch easier to do that in a
young age than it is in a lateage I think that's, I think

(05:31):
that's really good advice, andwe hear that actually is the one
part of triathlon that, like,like with running, you were
doing that from your footballand the cycling thing kind of.

Charlie Reading (05:40):
Most people can pick that up more easily, but
starting with a swimmingbackground gives you a big leg
up, doesn't it?
I don't know a huge amountabout your professional career
in triathlon.
What was your highlight, whatwas the pinnacle of your own
triathlon career?

Jo Spindler (05:55):
I don't know if there was really a very big
pinnacle.
So I won some long distanceraces in germany, in cologne,
and another was one in theeastern Sea called Ostermann,
which I could do in three times.
So this were really it was notreally big races, it was not
Ironman races but winning a race, and it was good competition

(06:16):
and some prize money.
That was really exciting.
And then I also qualified as apro for Kona and went as a pro
to Kona.
It was the year when ChrisMcCormick won and Chrissy
Bellington won, so I rememberthat one.
I was really swim challenged somy race was over when I exited
the ocean, but it still was agreat experience.

(06:37):
And then I liked also to travelthe world.
Later I joined Team TBB as aprofessional athlete and I think
that was really when you asked.
When I looked back on theprofessional career then Team
TBB, the whole thing, trainingwith so many good athletes was
really the best thing about it.

Claire Fudge (06:56):
I think we're going to come on to Team TBB
actually in a minute, so I'mexcited to hear all about that.
So with your racing, oftenathletes really learn from when
things don't go so well and thatyou don't have so much success.
So what was maybe a low pointin your racing and what did you
really learn from that in termsof when things don't quite go as

(07:18):
well?

Jo Spindler (07:18):
That's a really interesting question.
When I think about it, I reallydid not have a real low point
in racing.
I quite performed well withevery race.
Sometimes you get second,sometimes you win.
But the only maybe two things Ican think of is that I got sick
at some point.
So it was like I was running ahalf marathon and I run a

(07:42):
personal best of one, 12 orsomething and then it was like a
preparation race for thechallenge I brought, and it was
just two or three weeks before.
And then after that halfmarathon I get really sick with
an otitis interna and very highfever, couldn't sleep and could
not train at all for maybe sevendays or so.

(08:03):
And then I recovered and I hadno fever anymore.
And then I recovered and I hadno feather anymore and then I
thought, okay, fine, let's goback into training.
I have two weeks left.
So, from zero, I ramped up mytraining to 100% back again and
then went into tapering phaseand then raced a Roth and my
body really shut down after oneand a half, two hours on the

(08:23):
bike and then I was reallysmashed.
I could not recover from that.
You're at 100%, you go down tozero percent and then you try,
go to back to 100% and then youdo a race and then everything
goes over and I could notphysically work out anymore.
So every time after 30 minutes,whatever I did, my my body

(08:45):
completely shut down and then I,if I did a bike, it was okay
for 30 minutes and then I couldnot push any power anymore.
So I had to go my 120 watts orso because I really could not
and I could not find a way torecover.
So I stopped.
I had to completely stop forfor about half a year and then I

(09:06):
thought, okay, my career isover, I can't do the sport
anymore.
I did many tests and all thehormones were down.
So it was really terrible.
I had the testosterone statusof an 80 years old man and at
some point I felt that theenergy came back.
And then I did a little 20minutes run and then it started
again and I recovered and I feltthe energy.

(09:27):
So that was a very interestingexperience and then, from that
point on, I was really thankfulthat I could do everything again
.
That was a very big lesson torespect your body and do smart
decisions when you prepare for arace.

Claire Fudge (09:43):
I think that is such a good kind of thing for
every athlete to take on boardin terms of respecting your body
, and it sounds like you learnedthe hard way as well.
But how did you get throughthat time?
Because it's really difficultfor athletes when they do go
through a time where they areinjured.
So how did you get through thatperiod of time where you
couldn't race?
You thought your professionalcareer may be over at that point

(10:04):
.
What got you through?
Was it your, your?

Jo Spindler (10:11):
mindset, was it your kind of sheer determination
, like how did you get throughthat time?
Yeah, it was really difficult,because your dreams suddenly are
over you.
You think, okay, it's notpossible.
And then you try, of course,you try to find out what's going
on with the body, what can youdo?
Is there a day to recover?
But I just could not trainanymore.
It was not possible.
And then I really it was thetermination.
I thought, okay, that's it, soyou have to deal with it, let's

(10:32):
get over it.
And then I completely stoppedand I did other things.
I focused on my studies, Ifocused on my books, yeah, but I
did not sport related stuff,because I really thought, okay,
it's not possible anymore.
And, yeah, I read a lot andfocused on my studies.
So I thought I that it was atermination and, based on that,

(10:55):
what?

Charlie Reading (10:55):
so we're going to come on to your coaching in a
minute, but what do you do foryour athletes now to help them
avoid going down that same path?

Jo Spindler (11:04):
I try to avoid stupid decisions like I did past
.
Then you get over the years intheir own careers, but even more
working with so many differentathletes and also working
together with other coaches andobserving them and to see in
what kind of injuries orproblems athletes run into.
You have a lot of experience tosave athletes from just stupid

(11:30):
decisions and wrong ways andthen you can save them their
health and you can save them alot of time not getting injured
or not going down a wrong path.
And that is really what issuper important in coaching and
no program you can read in abook or find in the internet
give you that experience.

(11:50):
Training schedule is fine wheneverything is going to plan, but
the coach has to step in whensomething is not going to play
and then you need to know whatto do and you can't read that
really in the books.
It's a lot of experiencebecause some injuries you can
keep to train on or you have toeven keep to train on, and some
you have to stop immediately.

Charlie Reading (12:11):
So that's a nice segue onto Team TBB.
And so you're working with thelegendary Brett Sutton, who is
renowned for an amazing figurein the world of triathlon, but
also some unconventional methods.
What did you learn from beingcoached by and working with
Brett Sutton, and what lessonshave you taken from that and
applied that to your coachingbusiness now?

Jo Spindler (12:32):
Yeah.
So when I think back, thedriver in my even my own
professional career as anathlete was always the interest
in training.
I wanted to know what it is andwhat it feels like to train at
the very top level in triathlon.
This is what I wanted to findout.
I did not want to just know it,I also wanted to experience it.

(12:55):
And then it was for me verygreat to have that offer to join
Team TBB, because then I wastraining with Olympic champions
and Ironman champions and worldand European champions on a
daily basis and it was just agreat environment and so many
things to observe and learn andabsorb.
Speaking about Brett, he had avery big impact on how I coach

(13:21):
and also how I interact withleads.
I was basically self-coachedbut came from a both scientific
background is not correctbecause I did not study sports
but I was self-coached andself-studied basically.
But I had a quite scientificunderstanding of the physiology

(13:41):
and what things to address andhow to approach that.
And then I came to Brett, whohad a very hands-on mentality
and for me it was fascinating tosee that at some point those
different directions reallymatched together.
So when I see what Brett didwith his athlete on a daily

(14:02):
basis.
It was exactly what you woulddo from a scientific perspective
and that was just mind-blowingfor me that you thought okay, so
if you really use theprinciples, you come to that
schedule or setup.
And now you have a hands-oncoach who has a huge experience

(14:23):
of 20 years or even 30 years ofcoaching and he came to the same
training principles but from acompletely different direction,
and that gave a greatconfirmation for me that I could
understand why he trainedathletes in the way he did.
I remember one day where wewatched athletes training and he
showed me around in the SwissAlps, in Leather, where we had
our summer camp, and he drove meto all those places where we

(14:43):
watched athletes training.
And he showed me around in theSwiss Alps, in Lezze, where we
had our summer camp, and hedrove me to all those places
where we did training loops andwhere we did hill reps and where
the swimming pool was.
And then we stood on that hilland we looked down in the little
valley and he said, okay, downthere in the forest we have a
1500 meter loop and we do ithard as a brick session and you

(15:05):
have to run it counterclockwise,because then it makes you fast.
If you run it clockwise itmakes athletes injured and this
loop produces world champions.
And he said I don't know why,don't ask me, but I know that it
is true.
And it was true and it was theloop which Nicola Spirit
prepared their Olympics andwhich Chrissie Bellington ran on

(15:26):
.
And it was just fascinating tosee that he did not care about
the scientific reason behind whythis loop is so good and he
just said I know it works.
That's all I'm interested in.

Claire Fudge (15:38):
It's amazing to hear about some of his
techniques as well.
With your coaching, how do youthink your experience of racing
as a professional athlete butalso having worked with Brett,
how's that really sort ofcreated or shaped your coaching?
You know what's shaped yourphilosophy behind your coaching?

Jo Spindler (15:57):
so there is a development in the coaching
looking back at first you'rereally worried about specific
sessions, specific intervals,what is the appropriate volume,
all that kind of stuff.
And then that becomes less of atopic because you understand,
okay, this is appropriate, thisworks.
And then it's more about theinteraction how Brett or other

(16:26):
athletes interact with theirathlete when they tell them
something or then they decide tonot tell them something and
what they decide to not tellthem.
And then I think there'sanother step where then you are
in charge and you takeresponsibility and you
understand and observe theathletes directly and interact
with them.
And I think only at that stagethe real coaching starts.
Before it's just learning,observing, and many coaches

(16:51):
never go beyond the first stage,worrying about program,
sessions and intervals.
The better you get and thebetter you become as a coach,
the less this is an issue.
But then the real coachingstarts to know what to say to an
athlete, to know how tomotivate an athlete, to know
when to back off and all thatstuff.

(17:13):
That is the real coaching andyou can't learn that in any
education course, you can't readthat in books.
You have to experience it.
You have to observe it.
Books, you have to experienceit, you have to observe it.
Being with Brett, coached byBrett, and also observing as a
junior coach, on deck with him,observing all this is really
what had the biggest impact onme as a coach.

Claire Fudge (17:36):
I think what I hear from that is like a very
human approach, as in treatingathletes like human beings, and
that they aren't textbook.
They know no matter how muchyou read or if there's a plan in
front of you.
Actually you've got to listento the athlete and help them
where they are right now.
Which brings me on to the nextquestion.
Charlie is a huge fan ofanything AI technology.

(17:58):
We often have differingthoughts on the use of
technology and what you use itfor, so what are your thoughts?
Just having talked about beingquite human, what are your
thoughts on AI technologytechnology in sports?
So that can be anything fromhow we're using AI in coaching
programs or platforms through togarments or rings loops.

(18:18):
What are your thoughts?

Jo Spindler (18:19):
When you have lots of data input from different
devices, or even more input frommany devices from many
different athletes, and then tolook for patterns and strategies
adaptions and then to look forpatterns and strategies
adaptions, then it can be veryhelpful because it can be very
time consuming for a coach to doall that on your own.

(18:40):
I think maybe also you couldeven build some generic programs
based on that.
But I think the real, let's say, art of coaching can't see that
being handled by AI.
The art of coaching can't seethat being handled by AI.

Charlie Reading (18:59):
So I think, when the real coaching starts,
the human has to take over, tostep in.
I think this is fascinatingbecause when we first, before we
started this interview, claireand I were talking about how she
sees you as less worried aboutthe technology, as many coaches
are and I think Brett was famousfor that as many coaches are,
and I think Brett was famous forthat but I actually then was
listening to you talking aboutthe stages of going, becoming a
good coach and thinking this isexactly what technology is there
for, isn't it?

(19:19):
And actually I completely agreewith you AI is better at
crunching through all of thatdata and building a generic
training plan and, like you say,actually the generic training
plan is less important thanpeople think.
The coach's role is then all ofthat emotional intelligence
piece and that empathy stuff anddialing it down when they've
had a rough week or they'refeeling a bit sick.

(19:40):
And actually the coaching bitis the kind of complicated human
bit, not the training plan bit,isn't it?

Jo Spindler (19:48):
Yeah, that is as you said.
That sums it up very well.
Yeah, that is as you said.
That sums it up very well.
And Brett is that famous andthat successful because he has a
really unique ability to tunein into an athlete.
When he talks to you as anathlete and I heard that from

(20:16):
many athletes and he really hasa talk with you and he goes into
your emotions, desires, whileyou do something, you feel as if
he was reading your mind.
He says things which you think,okay, that's deep inside me.
Where the hell does he knowthat?
And this is what makes him sounique and he has an intuitive
knowledge when to say what andwhat not to say, and that makes
him successful.
It's not the gruel sessions orwhatever.
This is an image he built byhimself to also sort out.

(20:39):
If he had that image and anathlete approached him, he knew
that athlete really wanted to becoached by him and that athlete
really would do whatever heasked for.
Because there was thispre-selection there is the gruel
coach and the gruel sessionsand he throws them against the
ball like the eggs and whatever.
Who survives then survives.

(21:00):
But it was not at all like this.
So that was really Brett'spsychological intuition or
knowledge was really whatseparated him from any other
coach I experienced.
So far.

Charlie Reading (21:14):
So to go back to your sporting roots and
switch to football as a subject.
When you dive into why Sir AlexFerguson was so successful with
Manchester United, it alwayscomes down to this it's this
individual man management forBeckham.
He would be shouting in hisface for Gary Neville.
He always put his hand on hisshoulder and referenced his
grandfather because that's whathe knew worked for Gary Neville.
He always put his hand on hisshoulder and referenced his

(21:34):
grandfather because that's whathe knew worked for Gary Neville.
Eric Cantona he couldn't shoutin his face because he knew he'd
clear off.
He was all about calm.
That is the coaches that reallyget the best out of their
athletes.
It's that understanding thehuman being, isn't it?

Jo Spindler (21:47):
And it was exactly the same.
We did that whatever tracksession almost every two weeks.
So that whatever track sessionalmost every two weeks.
So we in switzerland in summercamp we rode down the mountain
to the track and then we ran 30times, 800, 200, easy, and then
we had a little something to eatand then we had to bike back
two hours or something, 1100height meters back to our

(22:09):
village and we had athletesrunning and doing the sessions
and some athletes, especiallythe male Brett, shouted at them
and he really kicked the ass andthey really needed it.
But if he would have done thesame to Nicolas Spirik, for
example, or Caroline Steffen,they would have stopped
immediately because they thoughtthere's something wrong.
It would have been nothingwhich would have motivated them

(22:32):
to push harder in the session.
They would just have gone crazyand say, oh, what's wrong?
And he knows that exactly whatto do at the session during a
session and what the athlete wasresponding then to.

Claire Fudge (22:44):
I think that's.
It's just a great way in termsof this human approach and the
psychology behind it.
Moving on to thinking aboutyour coaching as well, You've
had some absolutely amazingsuccess this weekend with one of
your athletes, rico, who weinterviewed a couple of months
ago now on this podcast.

(23:04):
So tell us a little bit aboutRico and, number one, tell us
about his successes, not onlywinning a 70.3 world
championship race, but also thisweekend.

Jo Spindler (23:19):
But what have you really focused on with Rico in
terms of his success at such ayoung age?
Yes, thank you, that was afantastic Sunday I had.
Yesterday Rico became second inDubai.
He put on a fantastic show,really good race, and then he
also placed third overall in theT100 overall ranking.
So that was really a hugeachievement and also a big
surprise.
We actually went into the raceto just secure his top 10 spot

(23:44):
so that he gets an automaticcontract next year.
Then the race turned out sowell that he was suddenly going
for the podium and that was justfantastic to watch With Rico.
I'm working with him now sinceabout two years.
He had obviously startedswimming early, so he was like
in a sports school focusing onswimming.
That is a super big advantagefor him because Ken comes first

(24:08):
out at the front out of thewater in the first group and
then he has all tactical optionshow to race the race and that's
a huge advantage.
He does not have to make uptime on the bike.
Then he just can decidewhatever he wants to attack or
just sit in the group, dependingon the course and the
competition.
In terms of training, we mainlyreally we did not crazy things.

(24:30):
We mainly looked forconsistency and keeping him
injury-free.
Basically, that's it.
I did not want him.
He's so young, he's 24 yearsold.
Only I do not want to push himand train him into the ground in
only two or three years.
Chasing titles and records.
No, he has a long professional,promising career ahead, records

(24:57):
no, he has a long professional,promising career ahead and it
just would be stupid to push allthe limits right now.
So after he won the world title70.3 last year, we were just
basically continuing what wewere doing anyway and we had a
focus already on making itpossible for him to perform well
in the heat, to race better inthe heat, because we knew

(25:17):
already from the races beforeLahti that there was an issue
there and that he was not goodin hot conditions.
And yeah, it was just great tosee that finally yesterday he
could show that he's also ableto do well in really hot
conditions.

Charlie Reading (25:35):
I seize on that .
Having just come back from Konaand been smashed by the heat,
what did you do for him to givehim good heat adaption?

Jo Spindler (25:43):
Yeah, we did basically a lot of heat training
, very specific heat training.
We used the core body sensor tomeasure body temperature and
also skin temperature.
In the course of the past 12months they also updated the app
so it has a much betterusability now it really works.
Before it was not very reliableand they also had to find out

(26:06):
what really to measure.
Maybe also thanks to theNorwegian guys and their input
they really understood betterhow to use it.
So we had heat training blockswhere Rico really focused on
adapting to the heat and we didmaybe three weeks where we had a
lot of heat sessions inaddition to the other sessions

(26:28):
and he sat on the trainer forone and a half hours at very
warm room temperature, severallayers of clothing on to get the
body temperature up and yeah,and then it was just a matter of
grinding through that and letthe body adapt.

Charlie Reading (26:43):
Brilliant.
That sounds like something.
If I ever go back to Kona, Ineed to be paying more attention
.
You definitely have to.
Yeah, yeah, I did some, butclearly not enough.
But equally, some of the proswere having the same issue.
So I take some sort ofconfidence in that.
And, in terms of the T100 hastried to change the sport of
triathlon.
I've gone through phases overthe course of the season

(27:04):
thinking, on the one hand, Ican't ever see anyone getting a
T100 tattoo on their calf, butequally, it's bringing a
professionalism to the sport anda different following.
So what are your thoughts onwhat the t100 series has brought
to the world of triathlon?

Jo Spindler (27:19):
for the professionals.
It has really made a really bigimpact because they brought
really money into the sport.
So suddenly professionals areable to do financially really
well and before that.
So when I was racing before thet100 it was really a struggle
to just finance your life as aprofessional athlete.
Now you can really make decentmoney if you do well in in the

(27:42):
t100 and that changed thedynamic.
I think that also makeseverything more professional.
You have a series where reallythe best athletes race so often
against each other.
That is exciting.
You don't have that chanceanymore as a professional
athlete to avoid the competitionlike it was before.

(28:04):
The big guys they only try torace once or two times a year
against each other.
They try to qualify for Konaand then they raced Kona and
they tried to not racethemselves before Kona and now
you see them racing every secondmonth or so and it's really
high quality racing.

(28:25):
That is another level ofprofessional life.
It's more like a professionalseries which we have in tennis
or Formula One or cycling aswell.
Professionalism in the broadcast.
So yesterday the broadcast ofdubai was really good.
All the important scenes,moments.
They brought that back in thebroadcast and you could, you had

(28:46):
an understanding of what wasgoing on.
They had good commentators.
It's good quality.
The course with the skyline ofDubai was really good and this
is a kind of professionalism inthe broadcast and in making it a
more popular sport attractivefor a wider population.

(29:06):
That is really another leveland a big step ahead.

Charlie Reading (29:09):
I'm pleased you mentioned the Formula One and
the cycling, because watchingUnchained on Netflix has, I
think, almost doubled theviewing of Tour de France this
year from previous years.
Do we know if we've got theT100 equivalent of Unchained
coming down the pipeline?

Jo Spindler (29:26):
Maybe not yet, but they are definitely going the
same path because they do a lotof interviews, social media
before the races, with theathletes.
So you really get to know theathletes better and you learn to
know them as a character.
And since all the time the sameathletes are racing, or kind of
a core, the same athletes areracing you over a course of a

(29:48):
year, you really get to knowthem.
And after the race also, thereare some really good interviews.
I I've never watched interviewsof athletes after a race, but I
found it really interesting andit is also authentical.
You know, if Sam Long breaksdown in tears, this is really a
great moment in the broadcastbecause it's so authentic, it's

(30:08):
so real, it's so emotional.
So I think this is a reallygood quality and also
interesting for normal peoplewho are just not doing triathlon
but just want to watch this andunderstand this better.

Claire Fudge (30:22):
I think it's really exciting to see the world
of triathlon moving in thatdirection as well.
Where do you think triathlon isgoing and going to move towards
?
Because I think we saw over alot of people moving into
different sports, whether itwere mountain biking or ultra
running.
There was a focus change interms of Ironman racing and
world championships, and nowwe've got the T100.

(30:44):
So where do you see triathlonbeing in five, ten years time?

Jo Spindler (30:48):
I think you need to differentiate between pro
racing and age group racing.
Triathlon and this is why I'malso very happy to be a coach in
triathlon because I think it'sreally the most healthy sport
you can do because it's sobalanced, it works the upper
body with the swimming, you havesome motorical skills you use
which you do not do when youonly do running or only do

(31:11):
cycling.
So you have really everythingand plus a technical aspect,
it's such a fantastic sports tojust stay fit and healthy that I
think everybody needs to dotriathlon.
That's one thing I think I'mhappy the athletes, like the
t100 age group events, are soldout so quickly because there is
a hype, the athletes.
It's cheaper than ironmanracing, it's very high quality

(31:35):
organized events.
So there is some competition aswell, the and the more athletes
race to triathlon, the betterit is for the sport and also for
the well-being of many peopleon the other side in
professional racing.
I think also that brings a lotof competition to the sport
Because now you suddenly have70.3 World Championships,

(31:57):
ironman World Championships,then you have T100 World
Championships, so there is acompetition of the organizers
for athletes.
That brings more money, thatbrings more professionalism,
that brings more time also forTV, because suddenly it's
something big, something veryhigh every time, not just in

(32:17):
october or not on hawaii.

Claire Fudge (32:19):
so I think that is a very exciting time for the
professional athletes and verygood development for the sport I
think seeing that competitiondevelop I think is going to be a
really important part of it interms of keeping it alive and it
and moving in differentdirections as well.
But obviously, at this end ofthe season for most certainly
age group athletes, towards theend of the season and off season

(32:41):
, a lot of athletes reallystruggle with kind of this
concept of finishing racing andthen having this void like not
knowing what they should bedoing.
What do you see as the biggestkind of mistakes or pitfalls
that age group athletes makeduring this transition phase?
I don't know what you call it.
Do you call it off-season?

Jo Spindler (33:01):
We can call it off-season because it's what
everybody understands.
I have not.
I like individual approach.
So I remember when I was myfirst year in Team TBB and I was
after my last race, I came backinto camp and I had to do a
track session and I thought,okay, I did my last race, so why
should I now run whatever 12.1thousandths in three-minute pace

(33:24):
or something?
And then after the sessions Iasked when do we do the
off-season?
And then he said, kid, youroff-season was yesterday, get
back to training.
So I had no off-season and Iwent straight back into training
because he thought I did notwell enough and that was also a
lesson.
But then at the same time we hadother athletes on the team who
got their off-season, who had todo the off-season, who were not

(33:47):
allowed to train.
So it was an individualapproach, if you do.
Rico did a season that lastsfrom March until December.
Of course he will get an offseason and we even did a break
in between halfway because weunderstand it's such a long
season and he needs to have atime to recharge mentally and

(34:08):
also physically.
And I do the same for theathletes as well, depending how
much they traced, how much theytraveled, how much stress they
had.

Charlie Reading (34:16):
I give them an off-season or not what does an
off-season look like, and doesit incorporate any of the sort
of other stuff that perhaps youwould like to do but don't get
time to do or you should do,maybe like pilates or yoga?
Or what does an off-season looklike for you?

Jo Spindler (34:31):
that also depends a little bit on the athletes.
Some athletes just like to dosome outdoor travels and then
they I send them hiking orbackpacking or whatever.
So there is some kind ofphysical activity involved.
Others want to go out celebrate, party, and they allowed that
for a week or so.
Others want to just step back alittle bit because they want to

(34:54):
look after their business andspend a little bit more time
with the family.
I would always I'm not a friendof doing nothing at all I always
would recommend to keep someactivities, at least the running
, so that it's not thatdifficult to step back again.
I think if you do not train atall, you lose a lot of time.
So Brett always said if yourest one week, you lose two

(35:17):
weeks, because it's one week forwhat you could have gained and
one week for what you didn'ttrain.
So then it takes you a longtime to get back again.
Yeah, that's the main important.
But for other athletes theyenjoy their training so much, it
gives them so much structure totheir daily life that it would
be a pain for them to not trainat all or to be forced to stop

(35:42):
it completely.
So we keep the routine but wechange the focus, we change the
approach.
We don't do interval sessions,we focus on other things.

Charlie Reading (35:50):
And just specifically on Pilates, because
this is something that I thinkI should do over the course of
the season, but I never havetime to, so now I get to the end
of the season, I think I reallyshould definitely start pilates
because I know it would be goodfor me.
Do you use pilates with yourathletes at all?

Jo Spindler (36:07):
no, please don't do it, because you might get
injured and then it's nothingyou would have wanted.
So actually you have moreathletes injured in off-season
when I leave them off the leadbecause they do stupid things.
They start pilots or yoga andthen they have the stress
adductor or whatever.
Yeah, and then we have torecover from off-season for two

(36:27):
weeks because they come out ofthe off-season injured.
So I can assure you that youmiss not out in not doing some
of that stuff during your season.
What we try to do and this issomething what I learned from
Brett we try to incorporate thespecific strengths work into the
sport so that we do not have todo additional sessions because

(36:48):
we already do it while swimming,while running, while cycling.
That is a phenomenal approachsaves you a lot of time, saves
you a lot of injuries and youstill do a lot of core and
strength work that's like musicto my ears.

Claire Fudge (37:01):
Thank you, I like you immediately does that get
you out of doing pilates now?
yes, I'm happy we did the talkso right at the beginning, you
were talking about your veryscience-based approach to your
coaching and, being one of yourathletes, I know that very well.
In terms of you know you oftentalking about physiology and
biomechanics, which is extremelyuseful when it comes to

(37:22):
understanding your coachingapproach as well.
Over the last couple of years,you've been involved with coup
cycles in terms of bike fittingand we interviewed Alex Bock
actually recently from coupcycles as well but you've also
had other involvement incompanies and to do with
biomechanics, such as cyclingfoot plates as well.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour interest in other companies

(37:42):
and through the sort of lookingat the biomechanics of cycling.

Jo Spindler (37:46):
As an athlete you are always looking for some
little potential improvementsyou can gain.
That be aerodynamics or that bebiomechanical stuff.
And I ran into that guy.
He said he was anex-professional cyclist and
naturopath and just very maybegenius person thinking out of
the box.

(38:06):
And he said I have somethingfor you which really can improve
your cycling.
And then he showed me thatmidfoot thing.
He did not show it.
He said come to Munich, I havesomething for you.
So I went to Munich.
I met Götz that's his name andhe gave me some mountain bike
shoe which had the cleat in themiddle of the foot, exactly in
the middle, and he said mountthat to your bike.

(38:28):
He gave me some mountain bikepedals for my triathlon bike and
then he said now we go riding alittle bit.
And I drove behind his car timetrailing.
That was a lot of fun One houror something.
And then he bought the car, hechanged my pedals and said go
back to your old shoes and hewent off.
He went into the house and Istood there and I thought let's

(38:49):
go, let's try my old setup.
And already after five minutesI turned back and because I
thought it's impossible, it feltso inefficient.
It's impossible to ride in thissetup in this position.
Just because it felt like youhad such a long, ineffective
lever on the foot.
And, yeah, I rang him at thedoor and I said, okay, I'm

(39:11):
convinced, please give me thepedals, give me the shoe or
whatever you have.
And since then I'm actuallyriding that and there's a lot of
discussion.
It is better in cycling if youcan improve your threshold, yes
or not.
As a triathlete, I'm not eveninterested in that, because you
effectively save your calves forthe run because your calves are
not working on the bike and youhave fresh calves when you

(39:35):
start your run when you come offthe bike, and that is an
advantage for triathlon.

Claire Fudge (39:41):
Do you think this might be one of the kind of next
things to come through intotriathlon?

Jo Spindler (39:45):
It's around there for 30 years already and it got
never really popular because oneof the problems that you have
placing the cleat under the mittof your foot really, or even
further back we also didexperiments with that change the
whole geometry of your bike andthen it's really out of sync.
You can't have a very goodbecause the front end is always

(40:08):
too high then, unless you arevery tall athlete, but normally
you would then need differentbike geometry for that kind of
cleat placement.
You have problems with toeoverlap, also with sometimes
scratching the road because it'stoo low than the bottom bracket
and all that stuff.
So this is one of the causemaybe, while it never became

(40:29):
really popular, you need to havea really big effort in
adjusting the bike so that youhave a decent aero position.

Charlie Reading (40:36):
I'd never really heard anything about this
discussion.
This feels like this is thebarefoot running revolution
happening and talking aboutbarefoot running and books like
Born to Run, which inspire thatsort of regeneration of interest
every once in a while.
You mentioned early on that youread a lot and you love getting
into the science of the sport.
What books have really helpedyou on your journey and what

(40:59):
books do you find yourselfrecommending to the people you
coach?

Jo Spindler (41:03):
That's a difficult question, because the books that
really influenced me already ina very early age is
Schopenhauer, nietzsche andThomas Mann.
I studied philosophy andliterature and I started reading
Thomas Mann when I was inintense class or so at the age
of 14 or 16.

(41:23):
And then he talks a lot aboutSchopenhauer, nietzsche and also
Dostoevsky, and then I wentinto this and that is really had
a big influence in my thinkingand also how I approach things.

Charlie Reading (41:37):
So let's dive deep on this.
How have those books shaped youas an athlete and as a coach,
and as an individual?

Jo Spindler (41:44):
it's a certain approach of questioning things.
You never take something forgranted unless you understand it
very well or you can prove itand you get an understanding for
seeing things in differentperspectives.
And then obviously you have allthose how to approach life in
general and what is the rightthing to do.

(42:06):
But ultimately it's really toquestion things and to think on
your own, not belief on whateveris presented to you can you
give me an example of how youuse that?
if you have it in sport, thenyou just look at the different
concept of anaerobic thresholdand then everybody say, okay,
it's whatever, ftp or.

(42:28):
But then you have to reallyunderstand, okay, what is ftp,
what is a really validdefinition of anaerobic
threshold?
And then the next question isthe method you are using to
identify that threshold.
Is that really able to do whatyou think it's able to do?
So maybe the setup influencesthe outcome of the test and this

(42:52):
is all like.
Then can get quite scientificquestions, but it all starts
with really questioning theconcept or the results.

Charlie Reading (43:00):
And based on that principle, if I want to
dive deeper on that, is thereone specific book from one of
those people that you wouldstart with?
You go.
This is the kind of beginner'sguide to this sort of approach
to thinking.

Jo Spindler (43:13):
You have to read the Budenbrocks from Thomas Mann
.
It's a novel, it's nothingscientific, but it brings you
into Schopenhauer and alsoNietzsche and it's just a great
book to read.
But it's almost 1000 pages andcan't tell you if it's good to
read it in English, because whatall those three thinkers really

(43:35):
have is a very good way ofwriting in German and there are
so many subtleties, so manythings in between the lines that
I'm really not sure how goodthat transfers to non-native
speakers or even into anotherlanguage.
And then you're okay.
If you want to really dive deepinto the philosophical aspect,

(43:58):
then you need to go intoSchopenhauer and read the World
as Will and Representation.
But that is an even longer book.
But it's a run through of alsophilosophic history book.
But it's a run through of alsophilosophic history, starting
with platon and then kant, andthen develops our own theory of
how everything is working andwhat's behind things and what is

(44:20):
the best way to live a life,and it's fun to read.
But that needs definitely moreendurance and perseverance than
the book in brooks needsexcellent.

Charlie Reading (44:31):
I can guarantee you're the only person so far
we've asked that question of, ofover 120 of the world's best
athletes, coaches andadventurers.
Nobody's given me those before,so they will go on the reading
list because I just I love howyou talk about that and how that
makes you think abouteverything differently.
So it will be going on to myreading list.
I'm not quite sure I can see.

(44:52):
I'm not sure, claire.
Is it going to go onto yourreading list?

Claire Fudge (44:54):
If it's on Audible .
I was very against Audible, butnow Charlie's convinced me.

Charlie Reading (44:59):
Oh yes, if it's not on Audible, and it's 1,000
pages.
That's almost a decade's worthof reading for me.

Jo Spindler (45:05):
I think it's not really easy to read.
So you make maybe you can read30 pages per hour, so that is
already quite a good pace andyou can't scan through the text.
You really need to read itsentence by sentence, because
it's really so good and it's allabout also the language and the
characters.

Claire Fudge (45:24):
It's fantastic, it's their own world maybe it's
one you have to read actuallyfrom what you're saying I'm
dyslexic, so I'm a horribly slowreader, but I have guzzled
through a while.

Charlie Reading (45:33):
I was two and four on cone, or I have guzzled
through a physical book for thefirst time in a long time.
Maybe I need one more before Itake that challenge on.
If it's on audible, I'll giveit a go there first for sure.
And then we always get theprevious guest of the podcast to
ask the next guest a questionwithout them knowing who that
person is going to be, and theprevious guest was Joey Evans
Now Joey Evans.

(45:53):
You probably don't know thename, joey Evans, but Joey Evans
was paralyzed in a motorbikingaccident and not only did he end
up coming back to being able towalk, but he went on to do the
Dakar Rally, a whole load ofother challenges, and he
literally just in the last 24hours, finished the Baja 1000.
So he's incredible guy.
But, claire, I think you've gotJoey's question yep.

Claire Fudge (46:12):
So Joey asks what is your best strategy for
dealing with the fear of failure?

Jo Spindler (46:18):
I think managing the expectations, that that is
probably the biggest aspect.
Manage your expectations.
I would not say you have tohave low expectations, of course
not, but you have to haverealistic expectations.
And if you manage those well,then there is a big chunk of
that fear already gone.
And the second thing is to justdo it, because it's like in

(46:41):
racing once the gun goes,everything, all the nervosity,
everything is gone.
You're just in the moment andwith the fear you just need to
start doing, just to try to doit, and by that moment that fear
is gone.
Maybe it comes back, but it'svery unlikely it comes back when
you're actually trying to do it.

(47:02):
You have to be in the momentand once you're focused, once
you're in the flow, then thereis no fear, it's true it is true
, the fear is far greater beforesomething than during it, isn't
it?

Charlie Reading (47:13):
yes, you just got to get over the start line
and then, yeah, it happened.
Excellent advice, excellent,joe, it's been absolutely
brilliant chatting to you.
I've got loads of notes herealready, including several books
that were never no, I neverthought would enter my reading
list, so it's really interesting.
Huge congratulations with whatyou've you and Rico have
achieved this season.
I think that's amazing and it'sinteresting.

(47:34):
Actually, when we interviewedRico, we asked him that question
was winning the 70.3 worldchampionships as early as he did
almost like too much successtoo early?
And there's that risk and worryof not going on to to continue
to have an amazing career.
And obviously he's proved thathe's absolutely going to
continue to have an amazingcareer.
And obviously he's proved thathe's absolutely going to
continue to have an amazingcareer.
So huge congratulations there.

(47:55):
We're looking forward towatching how both of you get on
over the course of the nextseason.
But yeah, thank you for thebrilliant advice and enjoy the
off-season, if you give yourselfan off-season.

Jo Spindler (48:05):
Well, brito will race the 70.3 Worlds in Taupo,
which is just one week beforeChristmas.
So, yeah, it will be anotherfour busy weeks until that race
and then, I think already, thepreparation with the other
athletes start for next.

Charlie Reading (48:19):
Do you get to go to?

Jo Spindler (48:20):
Taupo?
No, I'm in.
Right now I'm moving houses.
I have to finish that andtherefore I'm not going to Taupo
.
My job is done when the athleteis joining the start line, so I
can't do really a lot being atthe race.
Often I'm of better usewatching everything from the

(48:40):
computer and giving myinstructions to the people on
the course who then shout theinstructions to the athlete.

Charlie Reading (48:47):
I can tell you, taupo is an interesting place.
I've only ever jumped out of aplane over Lake Taupo.
I've never done a race there,but it's a great place.
But yeah, no, I'm sure he'llhave a phenomenal performance
there and, yeah, look forward toseeing that.
But yeah, thank you for yourtime and wish you every success
in the season ahead.

Jo Spindler (49:02):
Thank you.
It was really great to be partof the show.

Charlie Reading (49:06):
So what did you make of that interview with Joe
?

Claire Fudge (49:09):
It was great.
Obviously I know him prettywell from the world of coaching
but it was really actually.
It was really good for me tohear some of his earlier
experience, how he got into theworld of triathlon and also just
from his experience of comingfrom like a farm background and
working really hard and I wonderif that's had quite an
influence on his mindset behindendurance sport as well, that

(49:29):
kind of hard-working side to hissport.

Charlie Reading (49:33):
I thought that, because I was listening to it I
grew up on a farm as when I wasthinking, yes, I'm empathizing
with this.
And then he said I really likedhard work.
I was like, no, I can'tempathize with that when I was a
youngster, on the farm, Ireally didn't want to do any
hard work at all, I was as lazyas anyone, uh, but I did want to
play football.
So, yes, but I thought that wasinteresting and, yes, the range
of different sports and notcoming to triathlon till till

(49:57):
later on, but also reiteratingthat advice of the fact that the
swimming is the bit that reallyencourages everyone to try and
do now as a youngster, becauseif you get that, you've got
options, haven't you?

Claire Fudge (50:08):
I think if we were to look back at all of the
different interviews that we'vehad and the different people
that we've had on the guests onthe podcast, like it does come
back to this not specializingtoo early as a child in sport
and encouraging lots ofdifferent sports and, I guess,
getting lots of experience indifferent sports.
But coming back to the swimmingaspect in triathlon, that's
really interesting, isn't it?
Because we've come back to thattime and time again in terms of

(50:30):
that being the number one areaand also, for me, this concept
of and again, I guess, frombeing coached by him I get that
experience.
But for him to talk aboutactually where a coach I don't
think this was his words butwhere a coach becomes a real
coach is actually when they'vegot experience and they, yes,
you've got the training plan.
But the real coaching startswith the psychology behind the

(50:52):
athlete and really getting toknow an athlete, and I think
that's such an important part interms of you're a business
coach, whether it's coachingother business people, whether
it's coaching athletes.
I think it's so important thatyou can really get into the
psychology behind a person.

Charlie Reading (51:07):
I agree I thought that was a really
interesting conversation aroundhow the coaching is about the
human element and why, forexample, brett Sutton and
obviously I linked that to AlexFerguson why the coaching
becomes much more about thehuman but equally partnering
with technology, whether that'sAI or whatever, so that you can
focus more on the bit that thehuman can add the most value to

(51:30):
and get rid of the stuff thatthe AI and technology is better
to do for you.
That to me seems like a reallygreat approach and, yes, that's
obviously how I run the businesscoaching practice.
That's what I'm coaching theguys who run the other
businesses to do, and I actuallyI thought back to the coaches
that I've had previously andthis is definitely not the case
with Will Usher, my currentcoach, but certainly I could see

(51:53):
for some of those other coachesI could see I'm not sure
whether they got to the leveltwo that he said it was very
much still level one buildingthe training program, not so
much the level two bit.

Claire Fudge (52:04):
And I think actually for me as well, it's
really interesting from acoaching perspective in terms of
the world of nutrition.
I always come back to thistheory versus practice and
actually you've got a humanbeing in front of you and only
with my experience and theexperience that you get can you
truly then put into practice thepractical aspect of that theory
.
And that's not it's not goingto be textbook, and I think

(52:25):
that's a really important parthow people can really get the
most out of an athlete, a clientis actually really getting to
know them, and your experiencethat comes behind that in terms
of how you put that data, thatscience that you know, into that
practical application.
So, yeah, I really like that,that human side.
And that leads on to you Ididn't know the philosophy sides

(52:47):
to Joe either.
You've got a big book to readnow.
Oh, my goodness, I'm not surebook to read now.

Charlie Reading (52:50):
Oh my goodness, I'm not sure when I say it's on
my reading list, I'm not sureit's very high on my reading
list.
I actually think those sorts ofbooks I think would be
absolutely fascinating.
But it is the sort of bookperhaps doesn't work so well as
an audio book and it's the sortof book that you need, like
somebody that's a slow readeralways needs.
I need to put aside a month andjust that's a project for a

(53:11):
month, because I also think it'sthe sort of book where I keep
hearing from different peoplethat Meditations by Marcus
Aurelius is an amazing book forthis sort of philosophy, but it
does not work as an audio book.
I can't make it work as anaudio book, so at some point I
am going to have to just bitethe bullet and read the thing,
but it just takes a long time.

Claire Fudge (53:32):
And I wonder actually, by immersing yourself
in it and reading more slowly,you can probably process things
better.
You probably think quite a lot.
So, talking about meditation,maybe it is a form of meditation
to a certain degree.
Reading it actually like goingthrough that process, but it is
off season so potentially itcould help you with your sleep.
If you start reading, maybeyou're going to fall asleep.
At the second page and hetalked about the fantastic
results that he's had with Ricoas well, so that you know it's

(53:54):
really exciting to hear aboutRico and where the T100 is and
where it's going- yeah, Ithought the conversation about
the T100 was interesting as well, wasn't it?

Charlie Reading (54:03):
because I desperately I asked the question
in the hope that he knew thatsomething was going to come out
like the unchained or the driveto survive equivalent, because
it seems like it's teed up forit like that following of the
journey of the athletes throughthat series.
I desperately hope they do that, because that, to me, is that
has.
Clearly the tour de france hasbeen happening for what I don't

(54:24):
know about 80 years or something, or maybe even longer, but
creating unchained has massivelyincreased the, the viewers,
because people understand thejourney of the team and the
athletes and everything else,and triathlon needs that.
It's not like a game offootball where it all happens in
a 90 minute period, that somuch more of it happens before

(54:45):
the race, doesn't it?
So I think it'd be brilliantfor the sport if we could get
that.
Still not sure that we'll eversee a t100 tattoo on somebody's
calf, but for me there's acertain type of athlete that
wants to complete an iron man tosay I've done an iron man and
obviously they tend to be theones that have the tattoo.
But what was magical about Konafor me was the ability to hang

(55:06):
out with bump into speak, toeven be served by at a drink
station.
World champions, current pros,former pros, all of that stuff.
You're just immersed in it, andI suppose that is what the t100
is doing well is that you areall part of an experience where
you get to see the pros as wellas race, and maybe not even on

(55:26):
the same day, but I I think thatis a quite a special thing
within our sport and perhapsT100 will attract the age
groupers because of that.

Claire Fudge (55:34):
I think it's gonna be.
It's gonna be interesting to tosee where it goes and actually
you know, joe was prettypositive about the world of
triathlon still having a greatfollowing and people still
wanting to to be in that world,and I think T100 certainly is.

Charlie Reading (55:47):
I think more age groupers are going to go in
that direction, so it would beinteresting to see yeah, I was
looking at Ironman races fornext year and I was shocked at
how few there are to pick, likeI literally I think in June,
july and August there was one inthe US across the whole three
months.
I was like, really, is that Ican't be, I can't, I couldn't
quite get.
There was about four inSeptember but it just didn't

(56:08):
make any sense to me.
And there's not that many inEurope to pick from either.
I think probably the 70.3 isthe area of greatest growth,
which is fascinating.
Yeah, and the other piece Itook from Joe's advice was the,
the core body temperature sensor.
And try, I wish I'd had thatadvice a few months ago.
I could have probably.

Claire Fudge (56:27):
Charlie, I could have given you that advice I
should have because of the whole, yeah, the whole digital kind
of some device or gadget nobodytold me there was a gadget I
could throw out the problem.
I totally forgot to tell you,but I obviously don't have it
next time?

Charlie Reading (56:43):
no, I can't.
I'm not sure that.
I don't know whether that'll benext time or not.
Next time there's a hot race,doesn't?
have to be toner, but no, reallygood episode.
Great guy, really nice but alsoreally insightful on a few
things and I'm sure thatschopenhauer and man and
nietzsche have helped him becomethat person.
It's fantastic and for everyoneat home.
Keep on training if you want usto keep getting amazing guests

(57:06):
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(57:27):
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