September 25, 2024 • 25 mins
Hosts Charlie Redding and Claire Fudge wrap up the seventh season of The Business of Endurance. They reflect on a successful season of powerful conversations, highlighting 4 key guests:
- Chloe & Jeff Smith
- Alex Hutchinson
- Matt Fitzgerald
- Heather Jackson
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Charlie Redding and I'm Claire Fudge welcome to
the business of endurance.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Wow, the end of another season of the business
of endurance podcast, seasonseven.
We've had incredible guests,some inspirations, educ,
phenomenal stories, phenomenalathletes.
It's been like drinking from afire hydrant the amount of ideas
and inspiration we've received.
And we obviously kicked off theseason with a really
(00:33):
inspirational episode with Jeffand Chloe Smith, who have the
Big Moose Charity, big MooseCafe.
What did you make of thatinterview, claire?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Talking about inspiration, I think it was a
great one to kick off the newseason with, wasn't it?
Because I think having daughterand dad to hear their story
together, that journey ofclimbing and the journey of
walking, I think that wasfantastic.
And what they are doing tosupport mental health in their
local area in Cardiff, I thinkis absolutely amazing, and I
(01:04):
don't know if you remember someof the statistics of how many
lives they've saved.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
It was over 50.
I agree it was brilliant whatthey're doing.
I love the way they brought itinto the community.
They've given the cafe Jeffdoes incredible challenges,
whether it's climbing Everest orother things.
Having lost a brother-in-law tosuicide in Wales, actually that
story and what they're doingand how they're helping people
touched me.
(01:28):
As a result, we made them thecharity sponsor of the season.
Obviously, they're trying toraise more money to help more
people struggling with mentalhealth issues.
So let's dive into a littlesnippet from that episode.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I played ice hockey professionally I think I went
pro at 21.
And my defenseman when I wasplaying hockey was a guy called
Gary Moose Cloonan.
He was named Moose because hewas a gargantuan-sized guy and
he and I were great friends andI was best man at his wedding
and we just had lots of funtogether growing up and playing
hockey together.
But unfortunately in 2007, welost him to cancer.
(02:07):
So it was a massive loss and hewas the first person that I'd
been close to that had actuallypassed in my life.
So it was quite an awful timefor me and everything that we've
done.
We've come up with the charityas you mentioned, the coffee
shop and it's about leaving alegacy for him and, rather than
having it as a half empty glassand losing my friend, using it
(02:28):
as an inspiration to actually dosome cool work and give him a
memory, and I often bring hisfamily and talk to his widow and
she's very proud of what we'vedone in his name.
So it's a legacy.
Although he's gone, he's neverforgotten and we keep on
referring back to him andhopefully shining a light on the
inspiration that he's gone.
He's never forgotten and wekeep on referring back to him
and hopefully he's shining alight on the inspiration that
he's provided both of us with toactually create the charity
(02:49):
that we're with now.
Big Moose.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Coffee Company in particular.
This isn't just a cafe, it's acommunity hub aimed at
supporting people in manydifferent ways.
Can you explain what it's allabout, explain the business
model and explain what sort ofimpact you're hoping it's going
to have, or it is happeninghaving, on the community?
Speaker 5 (03:07):
back in 2014.
Um, we were going down to asoup kitchen and it was during
the christmas period, wherethere was a lot of commercialism
, a lot of money being spent,and dad and I were just a bit
like we were done with thepressure of christmas and we
just wanted to go back to basicsand just do something to give
back really.
So we went, started going downto the soup kitchen and met a
lot of the homeless communityand very quickly got to know a
(03:30):
lot of them, had a lot ofconversations and we were taking
down food and drink.
Then we engaged with some localrestaurants and we were taking
down some like cottage pie andwe had a pizza truck come down
and we were just doing as muchgood stuff as we could to
support this soup kitchen.
Then we engaged with some localshops, like Cotswold Outdoors,
david Lloyd got involved andthey were all donating warm
(03:53):
clothes and bedding and it wasstarting to build a little bit
and we basically created thisFacebook group called Big Moves
and we try to encourage peopleto live happier, healthier and
kinder lives.
So the soup kitchen was whereit all began and then every
month we were driving home andevery month we were saying
somebody needs to do somethingabout this.
People were really strugglingwith their mental health.
(04:14):
That became a running themeacross every person in the
homeless community that we metand we just kept saying it.
And then one month, dad waslike we just need to do
something about this.
And at the time my sister hadcome back from Paris and was
working in London at a placecalled the house of St Barnabas,
which was in Soho yes, afour-story beautiful building in
Soho where downstairs was abeautiful sort of private
(04:36):
members club and then on thefourth floor they had this
training facility where theyworked with people who'd
experienced homelessness,struggled with their mental
health, and they put themthrough a city and guild
qualification in hospitality andthen once they finished that I
think it was a 12-week coursethey parachuted them into the
club.
They worked behind the bar,they were waiters, waitresses,
reception, just basicallyworking in that industry and
(04:57):
just giving them a hand upinstead of a handout.
So we were really inspired bythis case where my sister was
working and dad was like weshould do something in Cardiff
and it was probably one of hisfirst really big ideas.
We came up with the idea ofCopshop.
The idea at the time was that wewould create a non-profit where
we could employ and trainpeople who'd experienced
homelessness, struggled withtheir mental health, but on the
(05:18):
path to suicide, young peoplethat needed just somewhere to
give them a chance and justbasically using the business as
a force for good.
Neither of us had hospitalityexperience.
Really, my claim to fame was Iworked at Wagamama.
You've never worked inhospitality, have you, ever,
ever?
And it became really clear thatother people wanted to help as
well, because we had loads ofvolunteers coming down to this
(05:40):
soup kitchen and in the end,there was more of us
volunteering no-transcript andin the end, there was more of us
volunteering than there was atthe homeless community.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Alex Hutchinson wrote Endure, one of my favourite
books of all time.
I really loved this episode.
I really loved interviewingAlex.
What did you make of thisepisode, Claire?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I was super excited to be a part of that interview
because I've read his books froma science-backed evidence base.
I love the way that he writes.
The pieces of information inthat episode were fantastic,
from talking about thesub-two-hour marathon and the
science that sits behind that toreally how do we use kind of
our mental resilience inbusiness?
(06:17):
What about for you?
Because I know Endure was abook that you really loved.
Was there a particular bit ofthat interview that you were
really intrigued by?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
A few things really stand out.
Obviously, the sub two hourpiece was brilliant.
I love talking about themindset of endurance, the
central governor theory and thepower of the mind to push past
challenges.
We have much more potentialthan we realize if we can
harness that by understanding alittle bit more.
That's amazing.
But I love the conversationwith him about being a writer,
(06:47):
but also with AI and how AI is areally useful tool, but don't
let it take away the fun ofcreative rabbit holes.
It was a brilliant episode andI loved talking to.
Let's dive into a snippet ofthe interview with Alex
Hutchinson.
Speaker 6 (07:07):
Ellie Kipchoge in the Sub2 Project.
That's the kind of story thatwas the backbone of my book.
In 2014, runner's Worldcommissioned me to do a big,
huge analysis of this idea ofcould anyone run a Sub2 hour
marathon, because there wasstarting to be some talk that we
were getting close, talked to alot of experts, crunched a lot
of data and wrote a big 10-pagepiece, which concluded with my
(07:30):
prediction that, yes, we wouldsee a sub-two-hour marathon
sometime around 2075, was myguess.
So that was 2014.
Two years later, I got a callfrom my editor at Runner's World
saying Nike has a big project.
They want to break two hoursfor the marathon sometime in the
next few months, and they'veoffered us a chance to go behind
the scenes, follow theirprogress and write about it.
Would you like to be thereporter?
(07:51):
Would you like to fly out toNike headquarters, meet the
runners?
And I just thought what isgoing on?
This is ludicrous.
I've spent a lot of timeestablishing that sub two, for
now at least, well beyond teamand capabilities.
The world record was just under203 at the time, and three
minutes is a long way for anelite marathoner, and so that
was my introduction into whatbecame known as the Breaking 2
project, where Nike spent, Iwould estimate, tens of millions
(08:13):
of dollars trying to optimizeeverything about how fast a
human can run a marathon,including selecting three of
what they thought were thegreatest runners in the world at
the time, one of whom turnedout to be Elliot Kipchoge.
He's won the last two Olympicmarathons.
He's pretty widely acknowledgedas the greatest marathoner
who's ever lived, but stillrunning sub two was a tall ask.
But over the course of aboutsix months, nike sort of doled
(08:36):
out the various things they weregoing to do holding the race at
a Formula One track in Italyand optimizing nutrition and
pacing, having this rotatingcast of an arrowhead formation
of pacemakers.
Most importantly, introducing abrand new shoe technology with
carbon fiber plates in it.
That has turned out to be, Ithink, the big difference maker.
Anyway, we got to the day 2017,may 6th, 2017, the anniversary
(09:00):
of Roger Bannister's first sub-4minute mile and Kipchoge didn't
do it.
But he came unbelievably close.
He ran two hours flat in 35seconds.
He was on pace until the sortof closing miles and he didn't
do it.
But I think he and actuallythat should save us a minute or
two, and the shoes should saveus some time.
(09:29):
You do the calculations and sayactually we should be able to
do it, but to see someone do itwas really surprising.
And Kipchoge then went on tobreak two hours a year and a
half later in Vienna at anotherstaged race which isn't world
record eligible, because he hadpacemakers who were not running
the whole race or weren'tstarting at the beginning.
But all of this became sort of ametaphor for the idea of limits
(09:51):
.
We establish what we think ispossible and it's very hard to
shake that belief that one thingis possible and another thing
is not possible and there's aboundary between the two.
Raking 2, I think, reallyreshaped a lot of people's
perceptions about what waspossible, and so I think when we
saw that subsequent to thesestaged exhibition attempts is
that people became much moreaggressive in marathons and the
(10:14):
world record is now about 30seconds away from the two-hour
barrier under record conditions.
And yeah, it's about theinterplay between mental and
physical limits and that was areally fun process to watch.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I think it's just a fascinating subject and actually
I had heard the Roger Bannisterstory the myth story at a
motivational event years ago andI was like, oh, that's
incredible, 400 people did itwithin 12 months of him doing
the four minute mile.
And then I listened to yourbook.
I was like, oh, that wasrubbish.
I think it took 20 years to getto the 300, didn't it?
(10:46):
I think that's something likethat.
But equally, we did see thathappen very soon after Roger
Bannister did the four minutemile and we saw it again and
again.
How soon do you think it willbe until we actually see a
qualifying sub two marathon time?
Speaker 6 (11:01):
That's a sad question because Kelvin Kipton is the
current world record holder andin Chicago last year where he
set the world record, he lookedlike he had more in the tank.
That was watching Chicagomarathon last year was the first
time I have sat there andthought I think we're ready.
I think there's going to be asub two hour marathon, if not
from Kelvin Kipton, then fromsomeone else, because clearly
the question after afterbreaking two, the question was
(11:24):
what is Elliot Kipchoge?
Sort of generational talent, asort of Bob Beeman of the
marathon, and it's going to take40 years before anyone matches
his times?
Or is, you know, the product ofthe current generation of
training, knowledge, shoetechnology, other forms of race
optimization?
And so other runners are goingto come along and keep upping
the ante and Kelvin Kiptonshowed pretty quickly.
(11:46):
It's like actually it wasn'tjust Kipchoge.
The marathoners are gettingfaster.
Kipton was killed in a caraccident a few months ago, which
is super sad.
He was 24 years old, tallappearances, just getting
started.
So now the question goes backwere Kipchoge and Kipton two
unique generational talents whohappened to show up around the
same time, or is there going tobe someone else who takes that
(12:06):
mantle?
Speaker 1 (12:08):
The next episode of season seven was the interview
with prolific author and runner,Matt Fitzgerald.
I love this interview.
Such a great guy with so muchwisdom.
Claire, what did you make ofthe interview with Matt
Fitzgerald?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Another great episode and, again for me, the science
that sits behind.
You know how he talks, how hewrites, so for me, of course,
the nutrition aspect is comingout here in terms of, from some
of the books that he's written,the real, simple, practical,
science-backed, effectivestrategies for athletes and
really being able to teach in away that is you're able to
(12:44):
implement it.
So he was talking about dietquality and actually just
thinking about diet in a reallypractical way and not about all
these sort of different dietcults, so to speak.
So that for me was great.
What about for you?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I loved this interview.
I loved his book.
Iron War again is one of myfavourite books of all time and,
having interviewed Mark Allen,he's actually not a fan of Iron
War because he doesn't see it asa true reflection of what
happened.
But for those of us on theoutside it felt similar to what
Mark told when we had him on.
And for those that haven'tlistened to the Mark Allen
episodes, you must go back andlisten to that.
(13:19):
It's phenomenal.
So I love talking about Iron War, but the reason that I loved it
so much was because, as Mattsaid, it's just.
It doesn't feel like there isanother sporting occasion like
that.
That's the only book of thatnature.
He's written out of 35 becausehe can't find another story as
good.
That's why it's such abrilliant book.
(13:40):
So I loved that as good.
That's why it's such abrilliant book.
So I love that.
I love the nutrition stuff andI loved how he's.
You know, only did he get to betrained like a pro, even if he
runs slow, which is the name ofthe book, but also then the fact
that he's created his own runcamps off the back of that.
I'm really excited about tryingto get involved in one of those
at some point.
I know we both said it shouldbe one of the bucket list.
But let's dive into into alittle snippet from Matt
(14:02):
Fitzgerald talking aboutIronwall.
Speaker 7 (14:07):
I feel fortunate.
I was nine years old when Idecided I wanted to be a writer.
When I grew up, my father is awriter and he wrote
professionally.
So when I was a kid I knew thatwas actually an option for me.
I fell in love with it.
It was really one of the onlythings I was any good at.
And then I fell in love withrunning two years later, at age
11.
I did not actually expect tomarry them the way I did and I
(14:28):
realized, wait a minute, likewhy can't I just put the very
best of my creativity intowriting about sports?
I was several years down thisroad.
I'm slow on the uptakesometimes, but it was really
when I sat down to write IronWar when I realized you know
what I can write something greatabout sports.
I don't have to hold back thebest of myself for the stuff I
(14:49):
do at night.
I can put everything I've gotand pretend this is the last
thing I'll ever write.
I just exhaust myself.
And then that worked out reallywell.
Iron War, I think, was betterthan anything I had written
previously and it gave me sortof a formula to move forward
with.
It feels like Iron War.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I mean of the books I've read, which is, like I say,
a few of the 35, it feels likeIron War is a different book,
though, because it's about onesingle story, isn't it?
Why haven't you gone back tothat kind of format of the book?
Speaker 7 (15:19):
One reason is that story only happened once.
I just had such great materialto work with.
The rest of it was justresearch right, I just had to
learn everything I possiblycould about the story and the
backstory and just tell it.
But once I told it, I told it.
But I have done similar thingssince then.
For example, I wrote my bookabout my fake pro runner
(15:40):
experience, running the Dream.
That is one cohesive story.
For that one it's not about alegendary talented athlete, it's
about a middle-aged averageathlete me.
But it was narratively similar.
And then I did also I ghostwrote a book for James Lawrence
the Iron Cowboy about when hetraveled all around the US doing
distance triathlon in everystate 50 days in a row.
(16:02):
And so that was a similar kindof story.
My name does not appear on thecover of that book, but I wrote
it.
Part of what makes Iron Warspecial is that it's a
completely unique story.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I'm thinking also about racing weight.
That I've certainly read and,with my background working in
performance nutrition as well,what drove you, I guess, to
write that book number one andnumber two the main problem that
you see in athletes with tryingto reach this kind of race
faith.
Speaker 7 (16:28):
I probably couldn't even get that book published
today, just because the way thepublic discourse around body
weight and body image haschanged.
So I started writing that bookin 2009.
And that was like the very peakof like diet hysteria.
Like it was everywhere, likeeveryone was obsessed and people
were making loads of money offof diet books like South Beach
(16:52):
and Atkins and all this stuff.
And what I saw around me wasathletes like actually going on
the South Beach diet, because welive in the same culture and so
athletes are like oh, I think Iwould be faster if I lost some
weight and all my friends aredoing South Beach, so I guess
I'll do that.
It's not that it was necessarilya problem for them to recognize
that body weight and bodycomposition do impact
(17:14):
performance, but they werereally muddled on.
All right, is it reallyperformance that you care about
or is it looking good naked?
Can we tease those things apart?
And then, what actual methodsare you using?
Are you doing what the mostsuccessful professionals do?
Not the ones who just get tothe top and vanish, but the ones
who get to the top and staythere because they're healthy?
For me, my instinct was alwayslike what is actually working at
(17:36):
the highest level of the sport,and for me, that was true of
gear and technology, it was trueof training, it was true of
mindset and it was true of dietand weight management.
I don't think we get anywhereby lying to people and saying
body weight has no impact onperformance and for some people,
given like their personalhistory, they just can't go
there.
I get that, but that doesn'tmean that all of us should be
forbidden because it's risky forcertain people.
(17:58):
So, yeah, I was trying to writea book that, if you're gonna do
it, this is the way it's done.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Good luck trying to get that one published today the
next episode we had on seasonseven was with the incredible
heather jackson.
I've been trying to get heatheron the podcast because she's an
incredible lady.
When I first approached her shewas just a professional ironman
athlete.
Now she's retired from Ironmanracing and gone into Gravena on
Ultra Two sports, not one.
(18:25):
What did you make of theHeather Jackson interview,
Claire?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I was going to pick you up on the two sports.
I think, if we go back to theepisode, how many sports has she
ever done and been really goodat?
I think it started off with wasit ice hockey, soccer?
There's something else I'mmissing here, because there was
definitely something else shedid before that and then getting
into triathlon like her storyof her just actually ending up
being quite good very quicklyand I think one of the things
(18:49):
that comes across is onethrowing herself into things and
that kind of belief that shecan do it.
The longevity within sportshowed a great depth from where
she started moving into Ironman,triathlon and now not just
doing gravel but actually doingultra running as well.
So two separate sports thatshe's extremely good at on a
professional basis.
(19:09):
So she was inspiring to me.
What came across for you inparticular?
Speaker 1 (19:15):
there was a lot from this episode.
I loved her story of winningEscape from Alcatraz race.
On my bucket list again I Iknow it's on yours, so I loved
that.
I love talking to her aboutpivoting from one sport to the
next.
My greatest takeaway from thatepisode was when we asked her
the question knowing what sheknows now, what would she have
done differently in her Ironmantraining?
(19:35):
That concept of the long slowrun, like the 30 miles slow run
before you do a marathon, wasreally interesting advice which
I want to incorporate into mytraining.
So I really like that.
There's just loads.
She's an inspirational ladythat's achieved a huge amount in
ridiculous number of sports.
But I think it'd be worthjumping to that snippet of ask
(19:56):
where we asked her the questionwhat would she do differently in
ironman now that she knows whatit takes to be a good ultra
runner and gravel athlete?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Early in my tri career I was just all over the
place in terms of nutrition onrace day.
I mean, I've been withHerbalife as my nutrition
sponsor for almost 15 years now.
They've been with me since dayone.
So I use their electrolytedrink for everything in terms of
that.
But early on in my career I usedto always take in solid foods,
just random, like everyone says,oh, don't change anything that
(20:30):
you do in training on race day.
And so for me when we wouldstop to refill bottles or at a
gas station I would grab like aSnickers or a candy bar or who
knows what.
And it was just, yeah, not veryspecific, and I think over my
career I dialed that in to tryto go mostly liquid calories if
I could.
So I would load my bottles uphigher density to try to get the
(20:52):
calories in more liquid or gelsand that became my Ironman
strategy, just in terms of theease to digest things.
And I think you develop thatyear after year of what works
for you.
And obviously the last fewyears have been that higher carb
push, getting that in, and Itried that and I guess, refined
(21:12):
it.
But to your question, like Ihaven't it's almost like I've
kept the fueling plan I learnedin Ironman and what I can
tolerate as I've come into thesetwo new sports.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I think both Claire and I can relate to the craving
of salt.
When we were doing anultramarathon down in Cornwall,
I was shoveling down saltedpeanuts as quicker than anyone
could give them, and Claire wason the salt and vinegar crisps,
I think.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I found a packet of crisps amazing.
I've heard you talk actually onanother podcast about which was
of great interest to me.
Actually you mentioned thatactually there was a point in
your career and I can't rememberwhich coach this was with that
you learned really that youneeded to eat more in training
and actually how that reallychanged things for you.
(21:58):
I see it quite often thatpeople under fuel.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how actually eating enough
or fueling yourself enoughreally changed your training at
that point in time?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Yeah, I think it's funny within my like journey.
Again, it was I was coming offof ice hockey primarily early on
in my career and I was yeah, Imean, I won't sugarcoat it I was
probably 30 pounds heavier thanI am today and so it was this
like transition of, okay, I wentthrough a phase of maybe eating
(22:28):
a little bit less.
I was seeing the progress as Ilost a little bit of that muscle
weight from ice hockey.
I certainly didn't need to bethe same size I was during ice
hockey, so it just, I think,opened my eyes to it and then
that and it's just showed theimportance of practicing the
nutrition in training so thatwhen you get to race day you've
done that and your body knowswhat's coming and your stomach
(22:50):
can handle it.
So it was that, yeah, startingat one point and progressing and
then seeing, okay, this isbeneficial and this is going to
prep me best for race day.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Phenomenal season, amazing guests.
Thank you to every one of them.
If you haven't listened to anyof these episodes but you've
caught up on a snippet, just goback, listen to the episode and,
while we wait for season eightto come out, go back into the
back catalog.
We've had some phenomenalinterviews with over a hundred
episodes of the Business ofEndurance podcast.
Check those out and look outfor season eight shortly, if you
(23:25):
want us to keep getting amazingguests onto the Business of
Endurance podcast.
We don't ask for you to pay forus.
We don't ask for patronage.
All we ask for is that yousubscribe to the podcast,
ideally on Apple.
Give us a five star ratingbecause it shows us you care,
and if you've got time, leave usa comment.
One word is fine, somethinglike inspiring or amazing or
(23:47):
something like that, but wereally do appreciate it and it
will help us to continue todeliver amazing guests on what
we hope you find to be anamazing podcast.
Thanks very much.
(24:09):
I'm Chloe from Big Moose.
Charity, we featured in episodeone of season seven, made such
a great impact on the both of us, we decided to make them our
charity sponsor for season seven.
Now they really touched me inthe sense that I lost my
brother-in-law to suicide inWales and these guys are working
their socks off to help preventsituations like that.
Claire, why did Geoff and Chloereally make an impact on you?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Coming from a background in clinical nutrition
and working in mental health,to me also it hit a spot in
terms of the charity and howthey are building therapy to
help support people with mentalhealth difficulties, and they've
saved over 50 lives now andalready met their first target
of a million and their newtarget, 15 million, that they're
trying to get to.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a
huge target they've setthemselves, but they're speeding
up help that people indesperately in need get, and
this help is needed more thanever and I know how problematic
mental health issues are intoday's world.
So if you think you can helpBig Moose Charity and they're
particularly looking forcorporate partners to help them
(25:15):
raise that 15 million, if youthink you can help them or link
them into a company that canhelp them, the best place to go
to is BigMooseCharityco, or youcan find them on Instagram as
BigMoose Charity, or you caneven email Jeff at Jeff at
BigMooseco.
I'm Charlie Redding and I'm Claire Fudge welcome to
the business of endurance.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Wow, the end of another season of the business
of endurance podcast, seasonseven.
We've had incredible guests,some inspirations, educ,
phenomenal stories, phenomenalathletes.
It's been like drinking from afire hydrant the amount of ideas
and inspiration we've received.
And we obviously kicked off theseason with a really
(00:33):
inspirational episode with Jeffand Chloe Smith, who have the
Big Moose Charity, big MooseCafe.
What did you make of thatinterview, claire?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Talking about inspiration, I think it was a
great one to kick off the newseason with, wasn't it?
Because I think having daughterand dad to hear their story
together, that journey ofclimbing and the journey of
walking, I think that wasfantastic.
And what they are doing tosupport mental health in their
local area in Cardiff, I thinkis absolutely amazing, and I
(01:04):
don't know if you remember someof the statistics of how many
lives they've saved.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
It was over 50.
I agree it was brilliant whatthey're doing.
I love the way they brought itinto the community.
They've given the cafe Jeffdoes incredible challenges,
whether it's climbing Everest orother things.
Having lost a brother-in-law tosuicide in Wales, actually that
story and what they're doingand how they're helping people
touched me.
(01:28):
As a result, we made them thecharity sponsor of the season.
Obviously, they're trying toraise more money to help more
people struggling with mentalhealth issues.
So let's dive into a littlesnippet from that episode.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I played ice hockey professionally I think I went
pro at 21.
And my defenseman when I wasplaying hockey was a guy called
Gary Moose Cloonan.
He was named Moose because hewas a gargantuan-sized guy and
he and I were great friends andI was best man at his wedding
and we just had lots of funtogether growing up and playing
hockey together.
But unfortunately in 2007, welost him to cancer.
(02:07):
So it was a massive loss and hewas the first person that I'd
been close to that had actuallypassed in my life.
So it was quite an awful timefor me and everything that we've
done.
We've come up with the charityas you mentioned, the coffee
shop and it's about leaving alegacy for him and, rather than
having it as a half empty glassand losing my friend, using it
(02:28):
as an inspiration to actually dosome cool work and give him a
memory, and I often bring hisfamily and talk to his widow and
she's very proud of what we'vedone in his name.
So it's a legacy.
Although he's gone, he's neverforgotten and we keep on
referring back to him andhopefully shining a light on the
inspiration that he's gone.
He's never forgotten and wekeep on referring back to him
and hopefully he's shining alight on the inspiration that
he's provided both of us with toactually create the charity
(02:49):
that we're with now.
Big Moose.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Coffee Company in particular.
This isn't just a cafe, it's acommunity hub aimed at
supporting people in manydifferent ways.
Can you explain what it's allabout, explain the business
model and explain what sort ofimpact you're hoping it's going
to have, or it is happeninghaving, on the community?
Speaker 5 (03:07):
back in 2014.
Um, we were going down to asoup kitchen and it was during
the christmas period, wherethere was a lot of commercialism
, a lot of money being spent,and dad and I were just a bit
like we were done with thepressure of christmas and we
just wanted to go back to basicsand just do something to give
back really.
So we went, started going downto the soup kitchen and met a
lot of the homeless communityand very quickly got to know a
(03:30):
lot of them, had a lot ofconversations and we were taking
down food and drink.
Then we engaged with some localrestaurants and we were taking
down some like cottage pie andwe had a pizza truck come down
and we were just doing as muchgood stuff as we could to
support this soup kitchen.
Then we engaged with some localshops, like Cotswold Outdoors,
david Lloyd got involved andthey were all donating warm
(03:53):
clothes and bedding and it wasstarting to build a little bit
and we basically created thisFacebook group called Big Moves
and we try to encourage peopleto live happier, healthier and
kinder lives.
So the soup kitchen was whereit all began and then every
month we were driving home andevery month we were saying
somebody needs to do somethingabout this.
People were really strugglingwith their mental health.
(04:14):
That became a running themeacross every person in the
homeless community that we metand we just kept saying it.
And then one month, dad waslike we just need to do
something about this.
And at the time my sister hadcome back from Paris and was
working in London at a placecalled the house of St Barnabas,
which was in Soho yes, afour-story beautiful building in
Soho where downstairs was abeautiful sort of private
(04:36):
members club and then on thefourth floor they had this
training facility where theyworked with people who'd
experienced homelessness,struggled with their mental
health, and they put themthrough a city and guild
qualification in hospitality andthen once they finished that I
think it was a 12-week coursethey parachuted them into the
club.
They worked behind the bar,they were waiters, waitresses,
reception, just basicallyworking in that industry and
(04:57):
just giving them a hand upinstead of a handout.
So we were really inspired bythis case where my sister was
working and dad was like weshould do something in Cardiff
and it was probably one of hisfirst really big ideas.
We came up with the idea ofCopshop.
The idea at the time was that wewould create a non-profit where
we could employ and trainpeople who'd experienced
homelessness, struggled withtheir mental health, but on the
(05:18):
path to suicide, young peoplethat needed just somewhere to
give them a chance and justbasically using the business as
a force for good.
Neither of us had hospitalityexperience.
Really, my claim to fame was Iworked at Wagamama.
You've never worked inhospitality, have you, ever,
ever?
And it became really clear thatother people wanted to help as
well, because we had loads ofvolunteers coming down to this
(05:40):
soup kitchen and in the end,there was more of us
volunteering no-transcript andin the end, there was more of us
volunteering than there was atthe homeless community.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Alex Hutchinson wrote Endure, one of my favourite
books of all time.
I really loved this episode.
I really loved interviewingAlex.
What did you make of thisepisode, Claire?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I was super excited to be a part of that interview
because I've read his books froma science-backed evidence base.
I love the way that he writes.
The pieces of information inthat episode were fantastic,
from talking about thesub-two-hour marathon and the
science that sits behind that toreally how do we use kind of
our mental resilience inbusiness?
(06:17):
What about for you?
Because I know Endure was abook that you really loved.
Was there a particular bit ofthat interview that you were
really intrigued by?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
A few things really stand out.
Obviously, the sub two hourpiece was brilliant.
I love talking about themindset of endurance, the
central governor theory and thepower of the mind to push past
challenges.
We have much more potentialthan we realize if we can
harness that by understanding alittle bit more.
That's amazing.
But I love the conversationwith him about being a writer,
(06:47):
but also with AI and how AI is areally useful tool, but don't
let it take away the fun ofcreative rabbit holes.
It was a brilliant episode andI loved talking to.
Let's dive into a snippet ofthe interview with Alex
Hutchinson.
Speaker 6 (07:07):
Ellie Kipchoge in the Sub2 Project.
That's the kind of story thatwas the backbone of my book.
In 2014, runner's Worldcommissioned me to do a big,
huge analysis of this idea ofcould anyone run a Sub2 hour
marathon, because there wasstarting to be some talk that we
were getting close, talked to alot of experts, crunched a lot
of data and wrote a big 10-pagepiece, which concluded with my
(07:30):
prediction that, yes, we wouldsee a sub-two-hour marathon
sometime around 2075, was myguess.
So that was 2014.
Two years later, I got a callfrom my editor at Runner's World
saying Nike has a big project.
They want to break two hoursfor the marathon sometime in the
next few months, and they'veoffered us a chance to go behind
the scenes, follow theirprogress and write about it.
Would you like to be thereporter?
(07:51):
Would you like to fly out toNike headquarters, meet the
runners?
And I just thought what isgoing on?
This is ludicrous.
I've spent a lot of timeestablishing that sub two, for
now at least, well beyond teamand capabilities.
The world record was just under203 at the time, and three
minutes is a long way for anelite marathoner, and so that
was my introduction into whatbecame known as the Breaking 2
project, where Nike spent, Iwould estimate, tens of millions
(08:13):
of dollars trying to optimizeeverything about how fast a
human can run a marathon,including selecting three of
what they thought were thegreatest runners in the world at
the time, one of whom turnedout to be Elliot Kipchoge.
He's won the last two Olympicmarathons.
He's pretty widely acknowledgedas the greatest marathoner
who's ever lived, but stillrunning sub two was a tall ask.
But over the course of aboutsix months, nike sort of doled
(08:36):
out the various things they weregoing to do holding the race at
a Formula One track in Italyand optimizing nutrition and
pacing, having this rotatingcast of an arrowhead formation
of pacemakers.
Most importantly, introducing abrand new shoe technology with
carbon fiber plates in it.
That has turned out to be, Ithink, the big difference maker.
Anyway, we got to the day 2017,may 6th, 2017, the anniversary
(09:00):
of Roger Bannister's first sub-4minute mile and Kipchoge didn't
do it.
But he came unbelievably close.
He ran two hours flat in 35seconds.
He was on pace until the sortof closing miles and he didn't
do it.
But I think he and actuallythat should save us a minute or
two, and the shoes should saveus some time.
(09:29):
You do the calculations and sayactually we should be able to
do it, but to see someone do itwas really surprising.
And Kipchoge then went on tobreak two hours a year and a
half later in Vienna at anotherstaged race which isn't world
record eligible, because he hadpacemakers who were not running
the whole race or weren'tstarting at the beginning.
But all of this became sort of ametaphor for the idea of limits
(09:51):
.
We establish what we think ispossible and it's very hard to
shake that belief that one thingis possible and another thing
is not possible and there's aboundary between the two.
Raking 2, I think, reallyreshaped a lot of people's
perceptions about what waspossible, and so I think when we
saw that subsequent to thesestaged exhibition attempts is
that people became much moreaggressive in marathons and the
(10:14):
world record is now about 30seconds away from the two-hour
barrier under record conditions.
And yeah, it's about theinterplay between mental and
physical limits and that was areally fun process to watch.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I think it's just a fascinating subject and actually
I had heard the Roger Bannisterstory the myth story at a
motivational event years ago andI was like, oh, that's
incredible, 400 people did itwithin 12 months of him doing
the four minute mile.
And then I listened to yourbook.
I was like, oh, that wasrubbish.
I think it took 20 years to getto the 300, didn't it?
(10:46):
I think that's something likethat.
But equally, we did see thathappen very soon after Roger
Bannister did the four minutemile and we saw it again and
again.
How soon do you think it willbe until we actually see a
qualifying sub two marathon time?
Speaker 6 (11:01):
That's a sad question because Kelvin Kipton is the
current world record holder andin Chicago last year where he
set the world record, he lookedlike he had more in the tank.
That was watching Chicagomarathon last year was the first
time I have sat there andthought I think we're ready.
I think there's going to be asub two hour marathon, if not
from Kelvin Kipton, then fromsomeone else, because clearly
the question after afterbreaking two, the question was
(11:24):
what is Elliot Kipchoge?
Sort of generational talent, asort of Bob Beeman of the
marathon, and it's going to take40 years before anyone matches
his times?
Or is, you know, the product ofthe current generation of
training, knowledge, shoetechnology, other forms of race
optimization?
And so other runners are goingto come along and keep upping
the ante and Kelvin Kiptonshowed pretty quickly.
(11:46):
It's like actually it wasn'tjust Kipchoge.
The marathoners are gettingfaster.
Kipton was killed in a caraccident a few months ago, which
is super sad.
He was 24 years old, tallappearances, just getting
started.
So now the question goes backwere Kipchoge and Kipton two
unique generational talents whohappened to show up around the
same time, or is there going tobe someone else who takes that
(12:06):
mantle?
Speaker 1 (12:08):
The next episode of season seven was the interview
with prolific author and runner,Matt Fitzgerald.
I love this interview.
Such a great guy with so muchwisdom.
Claire, what did you make ofthe interview with Matt
Fitzgerald?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Another great episode and, again for me, the science
that sits behind.
You know how he talks, how hewrites, so for me, of course,
the nutrition aspect is comingout here in terms of, from some
of the books that he's written,the real, simple, practical,
science-backed, effectivestrategies for athletes and
really being able to teach in away that is you're able to
(12:44):
implement it.
So he was talking about dietquality and actually just
thinking about diet in a reallypractical way and not about all
these sort of different dietcults, so to speak.
So that for me was great.
What about for you?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I loved this interview.
I loved his book.
Iron War again is one of myfavourite books of all time and,
having interviewed Mark Allen,he's actually not a fan of Iron
War because he doesn't see it asa true reflection of what
happened.
But for those of us on theoutside it felt similar to what
Mark told when we had him on.
And for those that haven'tlistened to the Mark Allen
episodes, you must go back andlisten to that.
(13:19):
It's phenomenal.
So I love talking about Iron War, but the reason that I loved it
so much was because, as Mattsaid, it's just.
It doesn't feel like there isanother sporting occasion like
that.
That's the only book of thatnature.
He's written out of 35 becausehe can't find another story as
good.
That's why it's such abrilliant book.
(13:40):
So I loved that as good.
That's why it's such abrilliant book.
So I love that.
I love the nutrition stuff andI loved how he's.
You know, only did he get to betrained like a pro, even if he
runs slow, which is the name ofthe book, but also then the fact
that he's created his own runcamps off the back of that.
I'm really excited about tryingto get involved in one of those
at some point.
I know we both said it shouldbe one of the bucket list.
But let's dive into into alittle snippet from Matt
(14:02):
Fitzgerald talking aboutIronwall.
Speaker 7 (14:07):
I feel fortunate.
I was nine years old when Idecided I wanted to be a writer.
When I grew up, my father is awriter and he wrote
professionally.
So when I was a kid I knew thatwas actually an option for me.
I fell in love with it.
It was really one of the onlythings I was any good at.
And then I fell in love withrunning two years later, at age
11.
I did not actually expect tomarry them the way I did and I
(14:28):
realized, wait a minute, likewhy can't I just put the very
best of my creativity intowriting about sports?
I was several years down thisroad.
I'm slow on the uptakesometimes, but it was really
when I sat down to write IronWar when I realized you know
what I can write something greatabout sports.
I don't have to hold back thebest of myself for the stuff I
(14:49):
do at night.
I can put everything I've gotand pretend this is the last
thing I'll ever write.
I just exhaust myself.
And then that worked out reallywell.
Iron War, I think, was betterthan anything I had written
previously and it gave me sortof a formula to move forward
with.
It feels like Iron War.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I mean of the books I've read, which is, like I say,
a few of the 35, it feels likeIron War is a different book,
though, because it's about onesingle story, isn't it?
Why haven't you gone back tothat kind of format of the book?
Speaker 7 (15:19):
One reason is that story only happened once.
I just had such great materialto work with.
The rest of it was justresearch right, I just had to
learn everything I possiblycould about the story and the
backstory and just tell it.
But once I told it, I told it.
But I have done similar thingssince then.
For example, I wrote my bookabout my fake pro runner
(15:40):
experience, running the Dream.
That is one cohesive story.
For that one it's not about alegendary talented athlete, it's
about a middle-aged averageathlete me.
But it was narratively similar.
And then I did also I ghostwrote a book for James Lawrence
the Iron Cowboy about when hetraveled all around the US doing
distance triathlon in everystate 50 days in a row.
(16:02):
And so that was a similar kindof story.
My name does not appear on thecover of that book, but I wrote
it.
Part of what makes Iron Warspecial is that it's a
completely unique story.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I'm thinking also about racing weight.
That I've certainly read and,with my background working in
performance nutrition as well,what drove you, I guess, to
write that book number one andnumber two the main problem that
you see in athletes with tryingto reach this kind of race
faith.
Speaker 7 (16:28):
I probably couldn't even get that book published
today, just because the way thepublic discourse around body
weight and body image haschanged.
So I started writing that bookin 2009.
And that was like the very peakof like diet hysteria.
Like it was everywhere, likeeveryone was obsessed and people
were making loads of money offof diet books like South Beach
(16:52):
and Atkins and all this stuff.
And what I saw around me wasathletes like actually going on
the South Beach diet, because welive in the same culture and so
athletes are like oh, I think Iwould be faster if I lost some
weight and all my friends aredoing South Beach, so I guess
I'll do that.
It's not that it was necessarilya problem for them to recognize
that body weight and bodycomposition do impact
(17:14):
performance, but they werereally muddled on.
All right, is it reallyperformance that you care about
or is it looking good naked?
Can we tease those things apart?
And then, what actual methodsare you using?
Are you doing what the mostsuccessful professionals do?
Not the ones who just get tothe top and vanish, but the ones
who get to the top and staythere because they're healthy?
For me, my instinct was alwayslike what is actually working at
(17:36):
the highest level of the sport,and for me, that was true of
gear and technology, it was trueof training, it was true of
mindset and it was true of dietand weight management.
I don't think we get anywhereby lying to people and saying
body weight has no impact onperformance and for some people,
given like their personalhistory, they just can't go
there.
I get that, but that doesn'tmean that all of us should be
forbidden because it's risky forcertain people.
(17:58):
So, yeah, I was trying to writea book that, if you're gonna do
it, this is the way it's done.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Good luck trying to get that one published today the
next episode we had on seasonseven was with the incredible
heather jackson.
I've been trying to get heatheron the podcast because she's an
incredible lady.
When I first approached her shewas just a professional ironman
athlete.
Now she's retired from Ironmanracing and gone into Gravena on
Ultra Two sports, not one.
(18:25):
What did you make of theHeather Jackson interview,
Claire?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I was going to pick you up on the two sports.
I think, if we go back to theepisode, how many sports has she
ever done and been really goodat?
I think it started off with wasit ice hockey, soccer?
There's something else I'mmissing here, because there was
definitely something else shedid before that and then getting
into triathlon like her storyof her just actually ending up
being quite good very quicklyand I think one of the things
(18:49):
that comes across is onethrowing herself into things and
that kind of belief that shecan do it.
The longevity within sportshowed a great depth from where
she started moving into Ironman,triathlon and now not just
doing gravel but actually doingultra running as well.
So two separate sports thatshe's extremely good at on a
professional basis.
(19:09):
So she was inspiring to me.
What came across for you inparticular?
Speaker 1 (19:15):
there was a lot from this episode.
I loved her story of winningEscape from Alcatraz race.
On my bucket list again I Iknow it's on yours, so I loved
that.
I love talking to her aboutpivoting from one sport to the
next.
My greatest takeaway from thatepisode was when we asked her
the question knowing what sheknows now, what would she have
done differently in her Ironmantraining?
(19:35):
That concept of the long slowrun, like the 30 miles slow run
before you do a marathon, wasreally interesting advice which
I want to incorporate into mytraining.
So I really like that.
There's just loads.
She's an inspirational ladythat's achieved a huge amount in
ridiculous number of sports.
But I think it'd be worthjumping to that snippet of ask
(19:56):
where we asked her the questionwhat would she do differently in
ironman now that she knows whatit takes to be a good ultra
runner and gravel athlete?
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Early in my tri career I was just all over the
place in terms of nutrition onrace day.
I mean, I've been withHerbalife as my nutrition
sponsor for almost 15 years now.
They've been with me since dayone.
So I use their electrolytedrink for everything in terms of
that.
But early on in my career I usedto always take in solid foods,
just random, like everyone says,oh, don't change anything that
(20:30):
you do in training on race day.
And so for me when we wouldstop to refill bottles or at a
gas station I would grab like aSnickers or a candy bar or who
knows what.
And it was just, yeah, not veryspecific, and I think over my
career I dialed that in to tryto go mostly liquid calories if
I could.
So I would load my bottles uphigher density to try to get the
(20:52):
calories in more liquid or gelsand that became my Ironman
strategy, just in terms of theease to digest things.
And I think you develop thatyear after year of what works
for you.
And obviously the last fewyears have been that higher carb
push, getting that in, and Itried that and I guess, refined
(21:12):
it.
But to your question, like Ihaven't it's almost like I've
kept the fueling plan I learnedin Ironman and what I can
tolerate as I've come into thesetwo new sports.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I think both Claire and I can relate to the craving
of salt.
When we were doing anultramarathon down in Cornwall,
I was shoveling down saltedpeanuts as quicker than anyone
could give them, and Claire wason the salt and vinegar crisps,
I think.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I found a packet of crisps amazing.
I've heard you talk actually onanother podcast about which was
of great interest to me.
Actually you mentioned thatactually there was a point in
your career and I can't rememberwhich coach this was with that
you learned really that youneeded to eat more in training
and actually how that reallychanged things for you.
(21:58):
I see it quite often thatpeople under fuel.
Can you tell us a little bitabout how actually eating enough
or fueling yourself enoughreally changed your training at
that point in time?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Yeah, I think it's funny within my like journey.
Again, it was I was coming offof ice hockey primarily early on
in my career and I was yeah, Imean, I won't sugarcoat it I was
probably 30 pounds heavier thanI am today and so it was this
like transition of, okay, I wentthrough a phase of maybe eating
(22:28):
a little bit less.
I was seeing the progress as Ilost a little bit of that muscle
weight from ice hockey.
I certainly didn't need to bethe same size I was during ice
hockey, so it just, I think,opened my eyes to it and then
that and it's just showed theimportance of practicing the
nutrition in training so thatwhen you get to race day you've
done that and your body knowswhat's coming and your stomach
(22:50):
can handle it.
So it was that, yeah, startingat one point and progressing and
then seeing, okay, this isbeneficial and this is going to
prep me best for race day.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Phenomenal season, amazing guests.
Thank you to every one of them.
If you haven't listened to anyof these episodes but you've
caught up on a snippet, just goback, listen to the episode and,
while we wait for season eightto come out, go back into the
back catalog.
We've had some phenomenalinterviews with over a hundred
episodes of the Business ofEndurance podcast.
Check those out and look outfor season eight shortly, if you
(23:25):
want us to keep getting amazingguests onto the Business of
Endurance podcast.
We don't ask for you to pay forus.
We don't ask for patronage.
All we ask for is that yousubscribe to the podcast,
ideally on Apple.
Give us a five star ratingbecause it shows us you care,
and if you've got time, leave usa comment.
One word is fine, somethinglike inspiring or amazing or
(23:47):
something like that, but wereally do appreciate it and it
will help us to continue todeliver amazing guests on what
we hope you find to be anamazing podcast.
Thanks very much.
(24:09):
I'm Chloe from Big Moose.
Charity, we featured in episodeone of season seven, made such
a great impact on the both of us, we decided to make them our
charity sponsor for season seven.
Now they really touched me inthe sense that I lost my
brother-in-law to suicide inWales and these guys are working
their socks off to help preventsituations like that.
Claire, why did Geoff and Chloereally make an impact on you?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Coming from a background in clinical nutrition
and working in mental health,to me also it hit a spot in
terms of the charity and howthey are building therapy to
help support people with mentalhealth difficulties, and they've
saved over 50 lives now andalready met their first target
of a million and their newtarget, 15 million, that they're
trying to get to.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a
huge target they've setthemselves, but they're speeding
up help that people indesperately in need get, and
this help is needed more thanever and I know how problematic
mental health issues are intoday's world.
So if you think you can helpBig Moose Charity and they're
particularly looking forcorporate partners to help them
(25:15):
raise that 15 million, if youthink you can help them or link
them into a company that canhelp them, the best place to go
to is BigMooseCharityco, or youcan find them on Instagram as
BigMoose Charity, or you caneven email Jeff at Jeff at
BigMooseco.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.