October 23, 2024 • 19 mins
Hosts Charlie Redding and Claire Fudge wrap up the seventh season of The Business of Endurance. They reflect on a successful season of powerful conversations, highlighting 2 key guests:
- Ben Rosario
- Dean Karnazes
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm charlie redding and I'm claire fudge welcome to
the business of endurance.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Wow, the end of another season of the business
of endurance podcast, seasonseven.
We've had incredible guests,some inspirations, educations,
phenomenal stories, phenomenalathletes.
They've been like drinking froma fire hydrant the amount of
ideas and inspiration we'vereceived.
So the penultimate episode ofSeason 7 of the Business of
(00:34):
Endurance podcast was with BenRosario, who founded and runs
the Hoka Northern Arizonarunning team.
What did you make of thatinterview, claire?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
It was really interesting because I don't
think I've ever interviewed orspoken to somebody who runs a
team like that, so I think theactual kind of ins and outs of
that team was really interesting.
Although he sits on the outside, directs that now.
That was really interesting tolearn about, and I think also
the part around how it's beencreated through sponsorship by
(01:04):
poker as a shoe company.
The olympics recently ended inin paris and there were lots of
conversations about athletesbeing sponsored and being being
paid, should I say, to win, orif they won medals, particularly
within athletics.
I think that was a new area.
So I think it's reallyinteresting to hear of this
(01:24):
different model.
I say different because I guess, being in the world of
endurance sport, we don't see itlike that.
So that for me was just reallyinteresting to see where
potentially sport is actuallygoing in terms of where money is
going to be generated withinsport.
What about for you?
We talked about marginal gainsand where shoes were a good
conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I agree that part was fascinating as a big fan of
shoe dog and the story aboutnike sponsoring michael jordan.
The impact of sponsoringathletes seen winning by a
company like hoka is reallyinteresting.
But then counter to that wasthe fact that when nike brings
out the vaporflies, suddenly alltheir athletes are
significantly quicker Then ateam like HOKO.
(02:07):
They can't just suddenly go OK,we'll go run in Nike shoes
because clearly that's not goingto work for a business model.
So suddenly they're not runningon a, they're not competing on
a level playing field, are they?
And I think that was fascinatingin terms of where that
conversation around?
Where is innovation in thesport?
Good terms of where thatconversation around, where is
innovation in the sport good?
(02:27):
Where do we put the line to say, okay, but we can't have an
athlete that was coming 20th aweek ago suddenly going up to
first because they've switchedrunning shoes.
I also love the conversationaround training people like a
pro, like they did with mattfitzgerald.
Let's dive into the snippetfrom Ben around the shoe and how
important having the best shoewas, but also how difficult it
(02:50):
was running a team sponsored bya shoe company.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
There was a time when Hopa was behind in racing shoes
.
We did not feel behind intraining shoes.
We felt like we hadunbelievable training shoes, as
good or better than anybody elsefrom 2019 to 2022, when we were
behind in racing shoes, and itreally came to bear in 2020 and
2021.
(03:13):
In 2019, we were definitelybehind Nike, but I don't think
any other brands had caught upto Nike either.
The first moment it becameobvious was the 2020 Olympic
Trials Marathon in the US, wherewe went first, sixth and eighth
on the women's side.
We had a great day on thewomen's side, but we were
fortunate that only oneNike-sponsored athlete on the
(03:34):
women's side that year was ingood form and that was Sally
Kipiego, and she got third.
It didn't affect the women'srace much because other brands
weren't there either.
On the men's side, nike broughttheir new Alpha Flies to
Atlanta and allowed any runnerto wear them if they wanted, and
on the men's side, even if youwere sponsored by another brand,
(03:54):
a lot of the other brands lettheir athletes wear those Nike
shoes, and so our top athlete,scott Faubel, was 12th place,
but he was the second guy not inthose Nike shoes, and the times
those athletes ran on thatcourse blew my mind.
That's when I realized we'reway behind here.
And I'm not saying that Scottwould have made the team.
(04:15):
He also had gotten sick fiveweeks out, but he wouldn't have
been 12th.
I'll tell you that I think whatwe did as a team was healthy
and, I think, was the rightthing to do.
I don't know.
We just moved forward.
We didn't talk about it, wedidn't let it bother us, we
didn't complain about it.
We just moved forward.
But as time went on, again, Ithink we've been way fortunate
in 2020 because there wasn'tmuch racing after those trials,
(04:36):
because those trials happened inFebruary and then the world
shut down in March and there waslimited racing in 2020.
Myself, josh Cox and Matt Helbigput together a race called the
Marathon Project in December2020.
And Chandler, arizona, was apro-only race for 50 men, 50
women, and in that race, our mengot fourth and fifth or fourth
(04:57):
and sixth, something like that,and they ran 209, but they got
beat by a couple of guys whomore power to them.
I just didn't think they shouldhave gotten beaten by and, of
course, they were wearing theshoes.
So that was another momentwhere I was like man.
And then, when you went into2021, we had tangible moments
where we had a guy run the sametime.
He ran the year before on thesame course against the same
(05:19):
field and in 2019, he had beensecond, I would say by the fall
of 21,.
(05:50):
It was out in the open, causingproblems To their credit.
Hoka realized that, changedcourse and by 2022, by the
spring of of them to come upwith this technology and not
share it.
But it's not their job, it'sthe governing body's job to
police it and set regulations.
All sports that have technologyinvolved have regulations for
that technology, and theregulations need to stay in
front of the technology.
What we can't have is anotherperiod of time where one brand,
whoever it may be, comes up withsome technology that's far
(06:12):
greater than everybody else andcreates an unfair advantage.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
The last episode of season seven was just a
brilliant episode.
Somebody I've been wanting toget onto the podcast for ages
the author brilliant runningbooks.
We've had great authors thisseason, but this guy produces
incredible running books thathave me laughing out loud.
Incredible runner and that wasdean carnasas.
What did you make of theinterview with dean?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I love his story of how he literally one night, when
he'd had quite a few I think itwas tequilas, was it, or beer,
or maybe both decided on his30th birthday to run 30 miles.
To do that off the backgroundof you know, not running at that
point in time was incredible.
But then waking up the nextmorning and saying, oh my god,
what happened?
What did I do?
I'm going to do this againtoday.
(06:59):
One of the things for me that westarted to talk about in
ultramarathons how does he keepgoing when there's pain?
How does he keep going when heknows he's got miles and miles
to go when he's on his own?
And he mentioned there aboutbeing quite in his head,
literally put one step in frontof the other.
And I asked him about thisquiet mind, because that's come
across in many of our episodes,hasn't it?
(07:21):
In many of our seasons of ultraendurance, athletes talking
about this quiet mind, and I wasreally interested to hear that
he actually does both.
So he will.
I'll call it multitasking.
He'll listen to things, like helistens to some books, which I
know you're a great fan of andactually have taught me to do
that so that I can consume moreinformation now, which is
brilliant and that was justfascinating, that he's able to
(07:42):
have a quiet mind.
But he's also able to trainwith listening to things as well
, and I believe, from thebeginnings of what he was saying
, that's where his book writingcomes from.
He has these great ideas andthen can detail them down.
I think he said on his phone,but I can't recall he can write
when he gets back.
I don't know.
Like, when you're doing longruns, do you ever have any
amazing ideas?
Because I know that's where alot of my ideas come from, good
(08:04):
or stupid.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Absolutely.
I haven't done this lately, butif I need to plan a keynote
talk, I'll block out time to run.
I find it's almost as goodcycling, but most effective
while running.
There's something about movingand seeing the scenery.
Finally, I was running atlunchtime listening to a book
and then my mind went that's agreat idea, but it's not come
(08:25):
from the book, it's not evenrelevant to the book I'm
listening to.
Yeah, I've come back with anamazing idea for one of my
businesses.
Yeah, combination of caffeineand running just brilliant for
the brain.
But I love the interview withDean because I literally has me
laughing out loud at his books.
There's something about runningthat attracts writers.
I know I remember asking himabout that.
Running allows you to think alot and come up with ideas more
(08:48):
than almost any sport.
I think it's not like runninghas stories like you would
expect from like football orrugby or whatever, but it does
generate a lot of books that arevery good and I can't recommend
highly enough his books.
But the other piece I took fromit was how his fueling has
changed over the years.
I love the idea of the pizzaguy pulling up alongside him as
(09:09):
he's running along, going here'syour pizza and he rolls it up
into one massive burrito andshovels it down, chucks the
cheesecake in his backpack andtakes a pint of Coke and goes
thanks, I'll see you in another30 miles or something.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I mean it takes training up to extremes.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Absolutely.
But it's amazing.
It shows how clearly he's gotmore scientific as he's gone on,
and he's gone on to win theultra marathon in Death Valley.
But it shows that you don'thave to be as scientific and
structured to get through ultrastuff.
It definitely got me excitedabout doing another ultra
marathon, even longer than I'vedone before.
(09:44):
We should give the listeners asnippet of Dean telling the
story of his re-entry back intorunning on his 30th birthday and
doing those 30 miles in hisboxer shorts.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
I used to love to run when I was a kid.
Some of my earliest childhoodrecollections were running home
from kindergarten and I rancompetitively until high school.
At 15, we won the cross-countrychampionships and I thought
that's as far as I'll take myrunning career.
So I stopped running at 15.
Fast forward to my 30thbirthday.
A couple university degreeslater, a business degree,
(10:18):
comfortable corporate job in SanFrancisco, and I'm in a
nightclub on my 30th birthdaycelebrating.
At midnight.
I told them I was leaving andthey said why?
It's your 30th birthday, let'shave another round of tequila to
celebrate.
And I told them no, I'm goingto run 30 miles to celebrate.
They said but you're not arunner, you're drunk.
I said I am, but I'm stillgoing to do it.
And I literally walked out ofthe bar, just humiliated with my
(10:40):
life as a businessman, eventhough I was successful.
I just wasn't happy and Istarted stumbling drunkenly into
the night, heading south,knowing there was a town called
Half Moon Bay, 30 miles away.
I thought run there tonight,set your sights on that and
that'll be an accomplishment.
I sobered up about 10 milesdown the road and I thought well
, what the hell are you doing?
This is crazy.
But something felt right.
(11:01):
I kept going and I made it.
It wasn't pretty, someblistering and chafing, but I
made it 30 miles and I decidedthat next morning that I was
going to become a long-distancerunner.
I quit my corporate job anddedicated myself to running, and
that was three decades ago.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And since that time you have done the most
incredible amount of running.
There's no point in me tryingto work out where to start in
terms of which ones to pick, soI suppose the question I'll ask
is which do you think is yourmost proud achievement in your
running career?
Which one of those incredibleevents challenges, races do you
put at the top of your roster?
Speaker 4 (11:37):
You know, I've run on all seven continents twice.
I've run across the hottestplace on Earth, death Valley,
and I've run a marathon to theSouth Pole, the coldest place on
earth.
But I think running 50marathons in 50 states in 50
consecutive days was probablythe most difficult challenge and
perhaps the most rewarding,because there was no blueprint
for doing it.
(11:57):
It had never been done before.
Figuring out logistically howto do it, how to get sponsors to
help cover the cost.
This is back in 2006.
So it kind of set in motionthis idea of taking on these
self-conceived challenges.
Now you have people doing allkinds of crazy events that are
outside of competition butnonetheless challenging and
(12:21):
rewarding.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
You're right.
There is so much going on now.
Obviously, the world of ultrarunning has changed massively
since you started.
What are the things that arestill in ultra running that were
then and that are dear to yourheart, and what's the unexpected
new thing in ultra running thatyou also love that wasn't there
when you?
Speaker 4 (12:41):
started.
The challenge and the expansionof what you conceive as
possible is expanded when yourun an ultra marathon.
I live in the world of ultramarathoning and I just think
everyone knows aboutultra-marathoning but they don't
.
And you know, when someonehears you ran 100 continuous
miles, they can't wrap theirhead around it, like I couldn't
wrap my head around it when Iheard about 100-mile foot race
(13:02):
the first time.
So I think that thrill of doingthe impossible is still there.
It's certainly become a morecompetitive sport.
Since I started the numbershave grown exponentially.
So the growth ofultramarathoning has blown my
mind.
It's still a relatively smallbase when you compare it to
marathoning or running ingeneral, but it's more
commonplace.
(13:23):
The word ultramarathon orultramarathoning is more
prevalent in the everydaylexicon.
You read about it in the paperonce in a while, so there's a
greater understanding ofultramarathoning in the general
public.
The demographic has shifted,which I like.
When I first got into it it wasprimarily men and now it's
about 40, 60 men and women.
You look around and think thisperson doesn't look fit.
(13:45):
There's no way they're going torun 50 miles or 100 kilometers.
But what I've learned it's moreup here in the head there's
people that are not wanting thepodium, not even mid-pack, but
just to make it.
You know their goal is just Iwant to finish this race.
And then you know they're slowand steady and they do it.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I think it's amazing to see so many different types
of people from differentbackgrounds now actually taking
part in these events.
As you've seen, things evolveover time with the event.
How has your nutrition changedover that time?
Because it sounds like thefirst 30 miles you ever did,
potentially fueled by beer andtequila.
So how has that fuelingstrategy changed over time?
Speaker 4 (14:26):
I mean that's a good question.
You know, the first time I ran200 miles it was a 12-person
relay race but I just signed upas one person.
I told them I didn't have 11friends left.
So, famously, in the middle ofthe night I was alone and hungry
.
I had a cell phone and a creditcard.
I ordered pizza delivered to meas I was running and I ate a
(14:46):
whole pizza.
I rolled it up into a bigburrito log of pizza and ate it.
I just thought early on.
I just thought calories werecalories.
Just get in as many calories asyou can.
It was just a numbers gameburning 10, 20, 30,000 calories.
Just consume that amount inwhatever form.
I've now become much moreprecise about the types of
(15:07):
calories carbohydrates, fats,protein, simple sugars, complex
sugars, branched chain aminoacids so I's become much more
sophisticated and scientific.
As far as fueling During thesereally long runs longer than 24
hours I'm still having pizza.
I still love solid food andit's a mix now of sports
nutrition and food I love to eatwhile I'm running.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
So with that it concludes season seven of the
Business of Endurance podcast.
We've had some incredibleguests, some incredible themes
running through it.
I think the theme of seeing howdifferent countries groom their
youngsters into athletes Ithink has been fascinating.
Particularly memorable was mesaying to Ben Rosario that the
(15:52):
US team hadn't done as well asexpected, given their amazing
collegiate system.
And then they seem to win everygold medal in track and field
in the Paralympics thereafter.
So that made me feel verystupid.
Really interesting theme.
Some great things around mentalhealth and how Big Moose have
helped athletes.
Like guest Lewis Roebling onthe podcast.
We've had some great authors aswell, haven't we?
(16:14):
Dean Karnasas, alex Hutchinson,matt Fitzgerald.
What a season.
What was your biggest takeaway,claire, from season seven?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Do you know, I think, because this season was
slightly different in terms ofreally talking about and taking
this into kind of a businessworld.
I really loved how each andevery one of those guests was
able to talk about actually howdo some of these things apply to
business, so that for me, Ithink, was no matter who we
spoke to, actually some of thesereal transferable points into
(16:42):
business, I thought wasfantastic.
I loved though I really lovedspeaking to Alex Hutchinson,
particularly because of thescience base and that for me,
I'm all about evidence-basedinformation, science, teaching
that it's a great episode.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto
the Business of Endurancepodcast.
We don't ask for you to pay forus.
We don't ask for patronage.
All we ask for is that yousubscribe to the podcast,
ideally on Apple.
Give us a five-star ratingbecause it shows us you care and
, if you've got time, leave us acomment.
One word is fine, somethinglike inspiring or amazing or
(17:22):
something like that, but wereally do appreciate it and it
will help us to continue todeliver amazing guests on what
we hope you find to be anamazing podcast.
Thanks very much, and chloefrom big moose charity, we
featured in episode one ofseason seven, made such a great
(17:44):
impact on the both of us, wedecided to make them our charity
sponsor for season seven, andit really touched me in the
sense that I lost mybrother-in-law to suicide in
Wales and these guys are workingtheir socks off to help prevent
situations like that.
So, claire, why did Jeff andChloe really make an impact on
(18:05):
you?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Coming from a background in clinical nutrition
and working in mental health,to me also it hit a spot in
terms of the charity and howthey are building therapy to
help support people with mentalhealth difficulties, and they've
saved over 50 lives now andalready met their first target
of a million and their newtarget, 15 million, that they're
trying to get to.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a
huge target they've setthemselves, but they're speeding
up help that people indesperately in need get, and
this help is needed more thanever and I know how problematic
mental health issues are intoday's world.
So if you think you can helpBig Moose Charity and they're
particularly looking forcorporate partners to help them
(18:50):
raise that 15 million, if youthink you can help them or link
them into a company that canhelp them, the best place to go
to is bigmoosecharityco, or youcan find them on Instagram as
bigmoosecharity, or you can evenemail Jeff at jeffatbigmooseco.
I'm charlie redding and I'm claire fudge welcome to
the business of endurance.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Wow, the end of another season of the business
of endurance podcast, seasonseven.
We've had incredible guests,some inspirations, educations,
phenomenal stories, phenomenalathletes.
They've been like drinking froma fire hydrant the amount of
ideas and inspiration we'vereceived.
So the penultimate episode ofSeason 7 of the Business of
(00:34):
Endurance podcast was with BenRosario, who founded and runs
the Hoka Northern Arizonarunning team.
What did you make of thatinterview, claire?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
It was really interesting because I don't
think I've ever interviewed orspoken to somebody who runs a
team like that, so I think theactual kind of ins and outs of
that team was really interesting.
Although he sits on the outside, directs that now.
That was really interesting tolearn about, and I think also
the part around how it's beencreated through sponsorship by
(01:04):
poker as a shoe company.
The olympics recently ended inin paris and there were lots of
conversations about athletesbeing sponsored and being being
paid, should I say, to win, orif they won medals, particularly
within athletics.
I think that was a new area.
So I think it's reallyinteresting to hear of this
(01:24):
different model.
I say different because I guess, being in the world of
endurance sport, we don't see itlike that.
So that for me was just reallyinteresting to see where
potentially sport is actuallygoing in terms of where money is
going to be generated withinsport.
What about for you?
We talked about marginal gainsand where shoes were a good
conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I agree that part was fascinating as a big fan of
shoe dog and the story aboutnike sponsoring michael jordan.
The impact of sponsoringathletes seen winning by a
company like hoka is reallyinteresting.
But then counter to that wasthe fact that when nike brings
out the vaporflies, suddenly alltheir athletes are
significantly quicker Then ateam like HOKO.
(02:07):
They can't just suddenly go OK,we'll go run in Nike shoes
because clearly that's not goingto work for a business model.
So suddenly they're not runningon a, they're not competing on
a level playing field, are they?
And I think that was fascinatingin terms of where that
conversation around?
Where is innovation in thesport?
Good terms of where thatconversation around, where is
innovation in the sport good?
(02:27):
Where do we put the line to say, okay, but we can't have an
athlete that was coming 20th aweek ago suddenly going up to
first because they've switchedrunning shoes.
I also love the conversationaround training people like a
pro, like they did with mattfitzgerald.
Let's dive into the snippetfrom Ben around the shoe and how
important having the best shoewas, but also how difficult it
(02:50):
was running a team sponsored bya shoe company.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
There was a time when Hopa was behind in racing shoes
.
We did not feel behind intraining shoes.
We felt like we hadunbelievable training shoes, as
good or better than anybody elsefrom 2019 to 2022, when we were
behind in racing shoes, and itreally came to bear in 2020 and
2021.
(03:13):
In 2019, we were definitelybehind Nike, but I don't think
any other brands had caught upto Nike either.
The first moment it becameobvious was the 2020 Olympic
Trials Marathon in the US, wherewe went first, sixth and eighth
on the women's side.
We had a great day on thewomen's side, but we were
fortunate that only oneNike-sponsored athlete on the
(03:34):
women's side that year was ingood form and that was Sally
Kipiego, and she got third.
It didn't affect the women'srace much because other brands
weren't there either.
On the men's side, nike broughttheir new Alpha Flies to
Atlanta and allowed any runnerto wear them if they wanted, and
on the men's side, even if youwere sponsored by another brand,
(03:54):
a lot of the other brands lettheir athletes wear those Nike
shoes, and so our top athlete,scott Faubel, was 12th place,
but he was the second guy not inthose Nike shoes, and the times
those athletes ran on thatcourse blew my mind.
That's when I realized we'reway behind here.
And I'm not saying that Scottwould have made the team.
(04:15):
He also had gotten sick fiveweeks out, but he wouldn't have
been 12th.
I'll tell you that I think whatwe did as a team was healthy
and, I think, was the rightthing to do.
I don't know.
We just moved forward.
We didn't talk about it, wedidn't let it bother us, we
didn't complain about it.
We just moved forward.
But as time went on, again, Ithink we've been way fortunate
in 2020 because there wasn'tmuch racing after those trials,
(04:36):
because those trials happened inFebruary and then the world
shut down in March and there waslimited racing in 2020.
Myself, josh Cox and Matt Helbigput together a race called the
Marathon Project in December2020.
And Chandler, arizona, was apro-only race for 50 men, 50
women, and in that race, our mengot fourth and fifth or fourth
(04:57):
and sixth, something like that,and they ran 209, but they got
beat by a couple of guys whomore power to them.
I just didn't think they shouldhave gotten beaten by and, of
course, they were wearing theshoes.
So that was another momentwhere I was like man.
And then, when you went into2021, we had tangible moments
where we had a guy run the sametime.
He ran the year before on thesame course against the same
(05:19):
field and in 2019, he had beensecond, I would say by the fall
of 21,.
(05:50):
It was out in the open, causingproblems To their credit.
Hoka realized that, changedcourse and by 2022, by the
spring of of them to come upwith this technology and not
share it.
But it's not their job, it'sthe governing body's job to
police it and set regulations.
All sports that have technologyinvolved have regulations for
that technology, and theregulations need to stay in
front of the technology.
What we can't have is anotherperiod of time where one brand,
whoever it may be, comes up withsome technology that's far
(06:12):
greater than everybody else andcreates an unfair advantage.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
The last episode of season seven was just a
brilliant episode.
Somebody I've been wanting toget onto the podcast for ages
the author brilliant runningbooks.
We've had great authors thisseason, but this guy produces
incredible running books thathave me laughing out loud.
Incredible runner and that wasdean carnasas.
What did you make of theinterview with dean?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I love his story of how he literally one night, when
he'd had quite a few I think itwas tequilas, was it, or beer,
or maybe both decided on his30th birthday to run 30 miles.
To do that off the backgroundof you know, not running at that
point in time was incredible.
But then waking up the nextmorning and saying, oh my god,
what happened?
What did I do?
I'm going to do this againtoday.
(06:59):
One of the things for me that westarted to talk about in
ultramarathons how does he keepgoing when there's pain?
How does he keep going when heknows he's got miles and miles
to go when he's on his own?
And he mentioned there aboutbeing quite in his head,
literally put one step in frontof the other.
And I asked him about thisquiet mind, because that's come
across in many of our episodes,hasn't it?
(07:21):
In many of our seasons of ultraendurance, athletes talking
about this quiet mind, and I wasreally interested to hear that
he actually does both.
So he will.
I'll call it multitasking.
He'll listen to things, like helistens to some books, which I
know you're a great fan of andactually have taught me to do
that so that I can consume moreinformation now, which is
brilliant and that was justfascinating, that he's able to
(07:42):
have a quiet mind.
But he's also able to trainwith listening to things as well
, and I believe, from thebeginnings of what he was saying
, that's where his book writingcomes from.
He has these great ideas andthen can detail them down.
I think he said on his phone,but I can't recall he can write
when he gets back.
I don't know.
Like, when you're doing longruns, do you ever have any
amazing ideas?
Because I know that's where alot of my ideas come from, good
(08:04):
or stupid.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Absolutely.
I haven't done this lately, butif I need to plan a keynote
talk, I'll block out time to run.
I find it's almost as goodcycling, but most effective
while running.
There's something about movingand seeing the scenery.
Finally, I was running atlunchtime listening to a book
and then my mind went that's agreat idea, but it's not come
(08:25):
from the book, it's not evenrelevant to the book I'm
listening to.
Yeah, I've come back with anamazing idea for one of my
businesses.
Yeah, combination of caffeineand running just brilliant for
the brain.
But I love the interview withDean because I literally has me
laughing out loud at his books.
There's something about runningthat attracts writers.
I know I remember asking himabout that.
Running allows you to think alot and come up with ideas more
(08:48):
than almost any sport.
I think it's not like runninghas stories like you would
expect from like football orrugby or whatever, but it does
generate a lot of books that arevery good and I can't recommend
highly enough his books.
But the other piece I took fromit was how his fueling has
changed over the years.
I love the idea of the pizzaguy pulling up alongside him as
(09:09):
he's running along, going here'syour pizza and he rolls it up
into one massive burrito andshovels it down, chucks the
cheesecake in his backpack andtakes a pint of Coke and goes
thanks, I'll see you in another30 miles or something.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I mean it takes training up to extremes.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Absolutely.
But it's amazing.
It shows how clearly he's gotmore scientific as he's gone on,
and he's gone on to win theultra marathon in Death Valley.
But it shows that you don'thave to be as scientific and
structured to get through ultrastuff.
It definitely got me excitedabout doing another ultra
marathon, even longer than I'vedone before.
(09:44):
We should give the listeners asnippet of Dean telling the
story of his re-entry back intorunning on his 30th birthday and
doing those 30 miles in hisboxer shorts.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
I used to love to run when I was a kid.
Some of my earliest childhoodrecollections were running home
from kindergarten and I rancompetitively until high school.
At 15, we won the cross-countrychampionships and I thought
that's as far as I'll take myrunning career.
So I stopped running at 15.
Fast forward to my 30thbirthday.
A couple university degreeslater, a business degree,
(10:18):
comfortable corporate job in SanFrancisco, and I'm in a
nightclub on my 30th birthdaycelebrating.
At midnight.
I told them I was leaving andthey said why?
It's your 30th birthday, let'shave another round of tequila to
celebrate.
And I told them no, I'm goingto run 30 miles to celebrate.
They said but you're not arunner, you're drunk.
I said I am, but I'm stillgoing to do it.
And I literally walked out ofthe bar, just humiliated with my
(10:40):
life as a businessman, eventhough I was successful.
I just wasn't happy and Istarted stumbling drunkenly into
the night, heading south,knowing there was a town called
Half Moon Bay, 30 miles away.
I thought run there tonight,set your sights on that and
that'll be an accomplishment.
I sobered up about 10 milesdown the road and I thought well
, what the hell are you doing?
This is crazy.
But something felt right.
(11:01):
I kept going and I made it.
It wasn't pretty, someblistering and chafing, but I
made it 30 miles and I decidedthat next morning that I was
going to become a long-distancerunner.
I quit my corporate job anddedicated myself to running, and
that was three decades ago.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And since that time you have done the most
incredible amount of running.
There's no point in me tryingto work out where to start in
terms of which ones to pick, soI suppose the question I'll ask
is which do you think is yourmost proud achievement in your
running career?
Which one of those incredibleevents challenges, races do you
put at the top of your roster?
Speaker 4 (11:37):
You know, I've run on all seven continents twice.
I've run across the hottestplace on Earth, death Valley,
and I've run a marathon to theSouth Pole, the coldest place on
earth.
But I think running 50marathons in 50 states in 50
consecutive days was probablythe most difficult challenge and
perhaps the most rewarding,because there was no blueprint
for doing it.
(11:57):
It had never been done before.
Figuring out logistically howto do it, how to get sponsors to
help cover the cost.
This is back in 2006.
So it kind of set in motionthis idea of taking on these
self-conceived challenges.
Now you have people doing allkinds of crazy events that are
outside of competition butnonetheless challenging and
(12:21):
rewarding.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
You're right.
There is so much going on now.
Obviously, the world of ultrarunning has changed massively
since you started.
What are the things that arestill in ultra running that were
then and that are dear to yourheart, and what's the unexpected
new thing in ultra running thatyou also love that wasn't there
when you?
Speaker 4 (12:41):
started.
The challenge and the expansionof what you conceive as
possible is expanded when yourun an ultra marathon.
I live in the world of ultramarathoning and I just think
everyone knows aboutultra-marathoning but they don't
.
And you know, when someonehears you ran 100 continuous
miles, they can't wrap theirhead around it, like I couldn't
wrap my head around it when Iheard about 100-mile foot race
(13:02):
the first time.
So I think that thrill of doingthe impossible is still there.
It's certainly become a morecompetitive sport.
Since I started the numbershave grown exponentially.
So the growth ofultramarathoning has blown my
mind.
It's still a relatively smallbase when you compare it to
marathoning or running ingeneral, but it's more
commonplace.
(13:23):
The word ultramarathon orultramarathoning is more
prevalent in the everydaylexicon.
You read about it in the paperonce in a while, so there's a
greater understanding ofultramarathoning in the general
public.
The demographic has shifted,which I like.
When I first got into it it wasprimarily men and now it's
about 40, 60 men and women.
You look around and think thisperson doesn't look fit.
(13:45):
There's no way they're going torun 50 miles or 100 kilometers.
But what I've learned it's moreup here in the head there's
people that are not wanting thepodium, not even mid-pack, but
just to make it.
You know their goal is just Iwant to finish this race.
And then you know they're slowand steady and they do it.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I think it's amazing to see so many different types
of people from differentbackgrounds now actually taking
part in these events.
As you've seen, things evolveover time with the event.
How has your nutrition changedover that time?
Because it sounds like thefirst 30 miles you ever did,
potentially fueled by beer andtequila.
So how has that fuelingstrategy changed over time?
Speaker 4 (14:26):
I mean that's a good question.
You know, the first time I ran200 miles it was a 12-person
relay race but I just signed upas one person.
I told them I didn't have 11friends left.
So, famously, in the middle ofthe night I was alone and hungry
.
I had a cell phone and a creditcard.
I ordered pizza delivered to meas I was running and I ate a
(14:46):
whole pizza.
I rolled it up into a bigburrito log of pizza and ate it.
I just thought early on.
I just thought calories werecalories.
Just get in as many calories asyou can.
It was just a numbers gameburning 10, 20, 30,000 calories.
Just consume that amount inwhatever form.
I've now become much moreprecise about the types of
(15:07):
calories carbohydrates, fats,protein, simple sugars, complex
sugars, branched chain aminoacids so I's become much more
sophisticated and scientific.
As far as fueling During thesereally long runs longer than 24
hours I'm still having pizza.
I still love solid food andit's a mix now of sports
nutrition and food I love to eatwhile I'm running.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
So with that it concludes season seven of the
Business of Endurance podcast.
We've had some incredibleguests, some incredible themes
running through it.
I think the theme of seeing howdifferent countries groom their
youngsters into athletes Ithink has been fascinating.
Particularly memorable was mesaying to Ben Rosario that the
(15:52):
US team hadn't done as well asexpected, given their amazing
collegiate system.
And then they seem to win everygold medal in track and field
in the Paralympics thereafter.
So that made me feel verystupid.
Really interesting theme.
Some great things around mentalhealth and how Big Moose have
helped athletes.
Like guest Lewis Roebling onthe podcast.
We've had some great authors aswell, haven't we?
(16:14):
Dean Karnasas, alex Hutchinson,matt Fitzgerald.
What a season.
What was your biggest takeaway,claire, from season seven?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Do you know, I think, because this season was
slightly different in terms ofreally talking about and taking
this into kind of a businessworld.
I really loved how each andevery one of those guests was
able to talk about actually howdo some of these things apply to
business, so that for me, Ithink, was no matter who we
spoke to, actually some of thesereal transferable points into
(16:42):
business, I thought wasfantastic.
I loved though I really lovedspeaking to Alex Hutchinson,
particularly because of thescience base and that for me,
I'm all about evidence-basedinformation, science, teaching
that it's a great episode.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto
the Business of Endurancepodcast.
We don't ask for you to pay forus.
We don't ask for patronage.
All we ask for is that yousubscribe to the podcast,
ideally on Apple.
Give us a five-star ratingbecause it shows us you care and
, if you've got time, leave us acomment.
One word is fine, somethinglike inspiring or amazing or
(17:22):
something like that, but wereally do appreciate it and it
will help us to continue todeliver amazing guests on what
we hope you find to be anamazing podcast.
Thanks very much, and chloefrom big moose charity, we
featured in episode one ofseason seven, made such a great
(17:44):
impact on the both of us, wedecided to make them our charity
sponsor for season seven, andit really touched me in the
sense that I lost mybrother-in-law to suicide in
Wales and these guys are workingtheir socks off to help prevent
situations like that.
So, claire, why did Jeff andChloe really make an impact on
(18:05):
you?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Coming from a background in clinical nutrition
and working in mental health,to me also it hit a spot in
terms of the charity and howthey are building therapy to
help support people with mentalhealth difficulties, and they've
saved over 50 lives now andalready met their first target
of a million and their newtarget, 15 million, that they're
trying to get to.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a
huge target they've setthemselves, but they're speeding
up help that people indesperately in need get, and
this help is needed more thanever and I know how problematic
mental health issues are intoday's world.
So if you think you can helpBig Moose Charity and they're
particularly looking forcorporate partners to help them
(18:50):
raise that 15 million, if youthink you can help them or link
them into a company that canhelp them, the best place to go
to is bigmoosecharityco, or youcan find them on Instagram as
bigmoosecharity, or you can evenemail Jeff at jeffatbigmooseco.
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