The Science of Female Performance: Challenging Sports Science Assumptions with Dr Stacy Sims

Episode Transcript
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StacySims (00:07):
We don't really study women, we don't know enough
about men, it doesn't matter,you're just a smaller version,
and when you sit back and thinkabout it, you're like, wait a
second, that's not quite right.

CharlieReading (00:18):
Today's guest is one of the world's leading
voices in the science of femaleperformance.
She's here to change the wayyou think about training,
recovery, and your body.
Dr.
Stacey Sims coined the phrase,women are not small men.
And she spent her careerproving why.
In this episode, we unpackeverything from caffeine, cold

(00:42):
water therapy, cycle-basedtraining, menopause, red air,
and strength training after 14.
Whether you're a femaleathlete, a coach, or simply
someone looking to optimizehealth and energy at any age,
this episode is definitely new.
You'll also hear the story ofhow Stacy went from elite

(01:04):
athlete to world-renownedresearcher and what she's
learned by standing at the frontlines of sports science, often
as the lone voice in the room.
This episode is packed withmyth busting, empowering
science, and practical tools youcan start using today.

(01:24):
So let's dive into the episodewith the amazing Dr.
Stacy Sims.
So could I ask you a quickfavor before we dive into

(01:47):
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(02:09):
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So thank you so much for yoursupport and for being a part of
the business of endurancecommunity.
Let's dive in.
So, Stacey, welcome to theBusiness of Endurance podcast.
Really looking forward tochatting to you.

(02:31):
Well, this morning for us, thisevening for you, I'm assuming.
So, yeah, looking forward todiving into an area that I feel
somewhat somewhat out of mydepth talking about, I think.
But I'm gonna I'm gonna do mybest and I'm I'm here to be
guided by Claire when I'mputting my foot in it.
But you famously championed theidea that that women are not

(02:51):
small men, which is a term I Ilove, and you've built an entire
scientific and educationalplatform around it.
But what was the moment thatsparked your mission to
revolutionize the way that wetrain and fuel female athletes?

StacySims (03:06):
I'm driven selfishly, I'll admit that, you know.
As a young endurance athleteand training just as hard and
not finding the kind of resultsthat I wanted, specifically went
from running into rowing and wewere all doing the same kind of
training as the men, same kindof blocks, all gearing up for
the same races, but there were alot of times when the entire

(03:30):
woman's boat was flat, and youknow, we talk about, oh, it's
that time of the month and allsorts of things, and it never
really kind of came up for themen.
So when I started looking at itfrom a perspective of being in
class and learning exercisephysiology and metabolism and
seeing no representation ofwomen in any of the textbooks,
it was always he or they.

(03:51):
There was never a confiningaspect of talking about sex
hormones or menstrual cycle.
The images that we were shownwere all those that really
project aggression and power andstrength, which are always
associated with the male sexhormone.
And then when I was doing ametabolism lab, I was the only
woman that would participate andthey threw my results out.

(04:15):
And I was like, why are youthrowing my results out?
And it didn't line up with whatthey were expecting from a
teaching lab.
And I was like, wait, I am thedaughter of a military officer.
I know how to standardize andfollow rules.
I know that I did this right.
And then that's where itstarted coming out.
Well, we don't really studywomen, we don't know enough

(04:37):
about men, it doesn't matter,you're just a smaller version.
And when you sit back and thinkabout it, you're like, wait a
second, and that's not quiteright because one, women are XX,
men are XY when we're talkingbinary concepts, and women have
a menstrual cycle.
So we know inherently thatpeople who identify as being
female will have perturbationsacross their menstrual cycle,

(04:59):
how that makes them feel, how itmakes them react and train.
And so it just did not makesense.
And I came from a family wholet us do things and always
asking why and finding answers.
And when I couldn't find them,that kind of was the trajectory
to like, okay, now let's reallyfigure this out and see if I can
find some answers.

Brilliant.
And I and I think so.
We're gonna definitely divedeeper onto what that sort of
research and what you've learnedand you know, all of that sort
of stuff over the course of thispodcast.
But before we do, let's I'djust like to sort of divert and
talk a little bit about your ownathletic background because
you've kind of mentioned a bitabout your sporting background
there.
For those people that don'tknow, tell us a bit more about
what you've done as an athlete.

(05:39):
You know, what what do youconsider the highlight of your
sporting career?

StacySims (05:44):
I've come to realize that although I might be a type
A minus, I put certain goalsinto play, and when I achieve
them, I become disinterested.
So that will tell you thepreference of how I've gotten
into what I do.
So as a kid growing up, andlike I said, being military, the
only status quo was having theavailability of ballet classes.

(06:06):
So I started as a ballerina andwe were stationed someplace
that allowed me to have someconsistency.
And when I was around 13,puberty, you know, you start
your body starts changing.
My instructor was like, youneed to choose between ballet
and running, and I recommendrunning.
Then I started the whole likerunning cross-country track,
played a little bit of fieldhockey, co-ed, soccer on the

(06:28):
offs off season of of crosscountry.
And then when it came touniversity, I wasn't that
excited about running at thecollegiate level because I was
like, Yeah, it's hard, but Iwant to try something new.
So I got into rowing.
It was relatively easy transferfor me because I felt that it
was, you know, hey, this issomething new, it's team

(06:48):
oriented.
So I rode all throughuniversity and then got into
bike racing and triathlon.
So I did triathlon full boardfor a very long period of time.
I've done Kona a few times,I've done X Terra Worlds a few
times, I've done a lot of littleraces here and there.
And then when I started my PhDdown at the very bottom of New

(07:11):
Zealand, where it's very, verycold and I don't like swimming
in cold water, I turned to bikeracing.
I was like, bike racing's waymore fun.
It's the most fun part.
So raced World Cups andhigh-level circuits race for
protein when I got back to theStates.
And then it got to a pointwhere I really had to choose
between bike racing on thatlevel or career and marriage.

(07:33):
I was like, well, you know,career's gonna pay the bills,
and I really love my husband.
So transferred into X-Tara.
And that way my husband and Icould do a lot of training
together.
It was a bit more interesting.
And then after the week beforeI raced Maui Worlds, I found out
I was pregnant.
So that was the second timethrough on the new course.
And so I had full intention ofcoming back afterwards, but life

(07:56):
gets busy, you have a newborn,things change, career comes in.
So I think that was probablythe relative end of being
focused on any kind of realtraining in racing.
Now it's gravel racing orgravel biking, done some high
rocks, done some CrossFit, lotsof gym stuff because of that's a
consistency when you'retraveling so much.

(08:17):
Yeah.
So long history and endurance,and now slowly getting more into
the strength side of things.

Brilliant.
And and so within that, whatwhat do you think is the
highlight?
I mean, like you've got you'vejust listed so many different
things there.
But what do you think if yousort of look back and think
that's the moment that I'mreally most proud of?
Where do you think that is?

StacySims (08:36):
I don't know if it is in sport because the reason why
I like got to different levelswhere I was is because of the
people around me.
It's like driving and andracing with my friends and
getting to, you know, gettingpodium and that kind of stuff
was all just part of thejourney.
So it wasn't like an epitome,and that's what I meant.
Like when I started this, it'slike I don't have that ultimate,
like I reach a certain pointand it's fun.

(08:58):
And when things stop becomingfun and adventurous, I want to
find something else.
So it's like there isn't apivotal where you train so hard
and you're like, oh, I'vereached this peak, I've got this
podium, I can move on.
It's like, well, that was superfun.
I got third in worlds, noproblem.
Let's go, let's go do somethingelse, right?
So it's a little bit of it'sbeen interesting to find that

(09:19):
out about myself, like lookingat history and having
conversations.
And it still holds true now.
I'm like, I was riding my bikeso much and gravel racing and
gravel riding, and now I'm like,yeah, I'm gonna do some ocean
swimming, and then I'll go back.
And it's just little thingsthat are of interest now.

I think I can really relate to this.
So I did Kona last year and itwas like a massive tick on the
on the list for me.
And and then it's like rightnow I can't get excited about
that stuff now.
So now I'm going off and doingthe whole adventure thing.
So which we talked about a biton the podcast and Claire knows
all about.
But it's it's kind of like uhyeah, I can really relate to
this.
So I suppose that sort ofprompts a question that's the

(09:56):
segue from one topic to theother.
And that is what's the mostsignificant lessons that you've
learned through your own racingexperience?
And how did those moments shapethe research that you've
pursued in the lab?

StacySims (10:08):
Questions from femates about different
supplements or products orracing strategies, things that
would come up like should I usecompression during training to
create a little bit of hypoxia?
Or what's the best way toacclimatize the altitude?
Or is this should I go with a160 crank length or a 170?
Because they couldn't find theinformation.

(10:29):
And myself being curious aboutthat too, I'm like, okay, well,
let's go figure this out.
Let's go answer the question inthe lab.
And if I can't do it, then I'mgoing to find colleagues who can
do that.
So it really, my whole researchline of trying to figure out
all of this stuff for women hasbeen based on real life lived
experiences and trying to getthe answers for people who are

(10:50):
asking.
And now it is my teammates arenow coaches and they're trying
to pass really good informationon to the younger generation so
they don't fall into low energyavailability reds or a really
awful team environment becausewe've all lived that.
So now it's like, okay, what isthe drive?
What are the questions whenwe're looking for the younger
generation now, too?
So it's this continuous threadthat just keeps coming through.

(11:12):
I get questions from the fieldor I see something in research
that doesn't quite make sense toapply to a woman.
So let's go in and answer that.
Let's go dig in and find outthat answer based on the right
population.

ClaireFudge (11:24):
So I love the kind of questioning brain that you've
got.
And actually, like there isn'tthose answers out there.
I'm going to go and find outbecause you're absolutely right.
In that, in that groupenvironment, people are asking
these questions, but you can't,you can't find the answers.
And it's so great to see now inthe world of sports, you know,
since you've made such, youknow, a big noise in this world
of female health, that actuallynow we're seeing research, you

(11:46):
know, taking place.
And just the other day I was ata conference and just listening
to how far it's come in termsof you know, physiologists now
speaking about females andathletes and how we manage them.
So yeah, so exciting to asklots of questions today.
But I want to I want to startbecause there's so many areas
obviously we can dive into, butI want to start around caffeine.

(12:06):
And obviously, we know thatcaffeine's um got lots of
research behind it, but I'mreally interested to hear more
about caffeine and how that ismetabolized differently in
females and males, and why whyit differs?
And you know, how can ourfemales more sensitive maybe
across their cycle?
Or does it change inperimenopause or in menopause at

(12:26):
all?

StacySims (12:27):
So if we look at this metabolism of caffeine, we see
that it's more driven from agenetic standpoint.
That's what we'll talk, youknow.
What we'll hear a lot in theresearch is if you have two
alleles of being a fastmetabolizer, then you react
differently from two alleles ofslow.
And if you have an allele ofboth, then caffeine doesn't
really work for you.
But the caveat is the woman'swhat we call SIP gene.

(12:48):
So the SIP gene is how youmetabolize drugs.
And we see that women have aslower gastric emptying rate,
and we also have a slower uptakeof a lot of drugs and caffeine
is included in that.
So when we start looking at theeffects of caffeine, the
half-life of caffeine for womenis a longer period of time than
what it is in men.
So, I mean, you'll see guys whoare throwing back two or three

(13:10):
shots of espresso right before arace, and then they're ready to
go.
Whereas if a woman does that,she's like, okay, waiting,
waiting, waiting, and then shegets some jitters and then it
kicks in.
So it does have to do a lotwith genetics, but we do see a
precipitous change when we startto get to late perimenopause
and to menopause.
And there's research is goingright now, looking into why this

(13:34):
happens.
But women become more sensitiveto caffeine.
You'll talk to women who arelate peri, early postmenopause,
and like, I can't, I can't haveas much coffee as I had before,
I'm becoming really jittery, andI feel really anxious.
So if we look at what happenswith caffeine in the brain and
it attaches to the adenosinereceptors, it has an interplay
with dopamine, and we know thatwe're having a lot of brain

(13:56):
changes with hormone flux, andwe're seeing a dregulation of
certain receptors.
We're seeing a change in ouractual neurotransmitters.
So it makes sense that thechange in those
neurotransmitters, includingadenosine, is going to affect
the way caffeine works in awoman's body when she gets to

(14:16):
that point.
I'm really interested to followthat line of research because
it is so common for women tosay, I can't do caffeine
anymore.
Not that it interferes sleep,but it makes them very anxious
and jittery instead of giving afocus and a boom, ready to go.

I think we're hearing a lot of that in in
women in this perimenopausalstage as well, and also kind of
feeling a lot hotter from it insome women as well.
So what I'm hearing you say,just for people that aren't kind
of as science-based, is thatnaturally there's a genetic
element to it, but naturally infemales your um empty from your
stomach is a lot slower, butalso that the uptake is also a

(14:51):
lot slower as well.
So it might take a longerperiod of time than than in men.
Do we know what that kind offigure may be?
Like if if if um there arefemale athletes listening, what
might that difference be?
If they were going to use, forexample, um a caffeine gel
before a start of a race, whencould they expect, or caffeine
gum or whatever, when could theyexpect potentially that that
kind of kick in to sort ofstart?

StacySims (15:13):
That's not if we're looking at excuse me, the
caffeine, which we call up tohalf-life.
So half-life is how long ittakes for half of that amount of
caffeine to be absorbed and andkick in.
We see in a hundred milligramsof caffeine that half-life is
120 minutes or two hours.
So we have to think about the50 milligrams that's in a

(15:33):
standard gel, you know, it itstarts to wear off a lot faster
because you'll hit thathalf-life probably around 90
minutes.
So for women who are relativelycaffeine sensitive, they're
using a 50 milligram gel ofcaffeine or a gummy or something
like that.
They might not feel it untilthat half-life hits at that

(15:53):
90-minute point, or a guy willfeel it within 20 to 30 minutes
because it starts to hit thesystem and starts to have an
effect on fat metabolism andyour adenosine for fatigue.
So there is that discrepancyof, you know, it could be an
hour with a 50 milligrams, butagain, it depends on how fast
the woman's metabolizing it.

That's really interesting.
So it's actually reallypersonal as well in terms of
when, yeah, when that's gonnakick in.

StacySims (16:19):
I have I have women who are wanting to use caffeine
on the back half of a 70.3 or anIron Man race, but they're not
really sure how that's going toaffect them.
So we do a somewhat low, notquite depletion run in a
training block.
So maybe an hour on the bikeand then they're gonna go for a
90-minute run.

(16:39):
And they're relatively lowfueling because I want them to
have the same sensation as theback half of a run.
And they'll take caffeine andthen they'll realize either it
makes them very hypoglycemic,like really quickly, or if it
gives them a steady state.
And that's something reallyimportant to know because
caffeine clears blood sugarreally quickly because you're
having a switch into fatmetabolism, and fat metabolism

(17:02):
requires blood glucose orrequires glucose.
So then they'll know, okay, ifI use caffeine, I have to have X
amount more carbohydrate withthat caffeine in order not to
hit a spike and then drop off.
So that's where some of thatindividual play comes into
account.
Men can do it too, but again,they're not quite as sensitive
to that hypoglycemic effect aswomen are.

Does this relate to uh I remember hearing you
talk about a sleep kind ofsupplement in the US where the
dosage was all around the themale dosage and females were
having crashes in the morningbecause of the dose?
Is this is this the same thingthat's going on here that the
female is is using up thecaffeine kind of more slowly

(17:46):
than the male?
Is that is that is that the theidiot in the room is kind of
asking for what's going on?

StacySims (17:51):
Yeah, it's when we look at most of the metabolism
or the uptake of of drugs, andlike I said, caffeine is one of
those.
It's all based on your standardmale and body composition of
standard male.
So what you're talking about,Charlie, is the ambient incident
where people were taking astandard dose of ambien and
women were waking up in themorning still drugged from it.

(18:12):
So this is why they arecrashing.
Another way I like to explainit is my husband and I both had
similar hip surgeries by thesame surgeon.
He's an 84 kilo guy, I'm a 59kilo woman.
We get sent home with the exactsame drug and the exact same
dosage.
So it's like, and my friendwho's a vet, she's like, that's
wrong because we have to dose bybody weight for dogs.

(18:32):
It's really wrong.
And in the way that we approachdrug metabolism and drug
dosage.
So caffeine is in that.
Like we see that the standarddose is 50 to 100 milligrams in
a gel or caffeinated drink, andthat can be way too much for
some women, and it could be justenough for some men, or some
men might need to do more thanthat.

(18:54):
And it comes down to sexdifferences in SIP gene and
gastric emptying or how fast ithits the system, um, the
half-life.
And again, if we're looking atacross the menstrual cycle,
there are differences too.
If we think about the highhormone phase of the menstrual
cycle, where we have a greaterreliance on free fatty acids and
we have a higher coretemperature, and we don't have

(19:16):
as much carbohydrate available,then it hits the system faster
and affects women at a greaterintensity than if they were in
the low hormone phase, wherethey have more of the
carbohydrate available to kindof buffer the clearing through
the blood.

It's just that it, you know, it's just fascinating
when you're talking about thisfor so many years, women have
not had this informationavailable.
And just, you know, you talkingand hearing all the research
and reading all the research outthere, it just makes so much
sense when you're reading it.
Like, my God, this is like, youknow, this jigsaw's coming
together.
So it's it's fascinating tohear you talk about it.
And actually, when we'retalking about research, you'll

(19:52):
have to correct me if I'm wrong,but you've published over a
hundred journals, I think.
Is that is that right?
I think I'm now up to just shyof 120 journal.
Amazing.
And when, you know, talkingabout research, obviously a lot
of as you started out, you know,a lot of the research has been
in men, particularly when we'relooking at sports and and
physiology.

(20:12):
Um I know there's a lot moreresearch now being done in in
females, which is amazing.
But what, you know, what arethe main assumptions in in
research out there in men thatjust don't, you know, apply to
women?
I know you've just touched on alittle bit of it there.

StacySims (20:25):
Yeah, I kind of want to redo all the research in
sports science, especially forwomen.
And I say that because I bringit back to like a historical
perspective, right?
If we think about themodernization of medicine,
modernization of sport, and whowas in the room when they were
designing studies, it was men,right?
So you're thinking about therewas no even context of what is a

(20:47):
menstrual cycle or hormoneperturbations or the fact that a
woman doesn't age in the samekind of linear fashion as a man.
So if we think about thingslike I'm looking at VO2 and VO2
tests, we see that there's adifference in the uptake of VO2
and VO2 VO2 because women in thestages that they put a lot of
women through, it's not optimalfor our muscle morphology.

(21:09):
What I mean by that is ourmuscle fiber type, because being
born XX versus XY means that asXX, you have more endurant
fibers.
So you don't have as many ofthose glycolytic fibers, you
have better oxygen carryingcapacity.
And so when we're looking atthe stepwise increments for a
VO2 test, it's optimized for themale body, but not for the

(21:29):
woman's body.
So there are things like basicprotocols that I'd like to redo.
And, you know, I could spendanother two career decades of
just redoing protocols.
And we don't have that, and Idon't have the time to do that.
So we do have to just take apause and say, okay, so if this
VO2 test is optimal for my body,maybe we have to relook at the

(21:51):
stepwise increments, or maybe Istart at a higher power output
because I can hold that for amuch longer period of time.
And same with lactate andlactate testing.
Women don't have as muchglycolytic capacity as men
because we don't have as many ofthose fast twitch fibers.
So we aren't able to produce asmuch lactate, but that doesn't
mean that we can't hold highpercent of our oxygen, our

(22:13):
aerobic ability at a high poweroutput.
It just means that we don't payattention so much to that
lactate curve.
So there's there we could go onfor the rest of the podcast.

Just a quick, just a quick follow-up on that.
I've heard you talk before andlisten to you speak about, you
know, obviously we we haven'tgot all of this research with
females, but it doesn't mean tosay that things aren't different
or it doesn't exist.
And I've talked to you, I'veI've heard you talk about, you
know, extrapolating or takingdata from kind of the medical
science world and bringing itinto sports.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout kind of what what that

(22:46):
means in terms of takingevidence from somewhere else and
kind of applying it to thesports world with women?

StacySims (22:53):
Yeah.
So if we look right now atsports science, and yes, I'm
very excited to think thatthere's a lot more research
coming out, but when we'relooking at the research, a lot
of the cut points are basedarbitrarily, which it might have
come up in one or two sportsscience studies and it's been
held true.
If we look, for example, attrying to determine what our

(23:13):
luteal phase is, if we look atsports science cutoffs, they'll
say you have a viable lutealphase if you are 16 animals or
higher.
If we look in the fertilityresearch, it fluctuates between
eight and 20.
So if we're doing research ortrying to determine if a woman
has a viable luteal phase andwe're going with sports science

(23:33):
cutoffs, then we might miss themark.
But if we're going with all thetried and true, really for the
fertility research, then we cantake that over and say, yep,
here are our variations.
We know that progesterone is ina pulse, it's not standard and
static.
So that's what I mean whenwe're looking at outside of the
sports science research, we'relooking for best practice that's

(23:54):
going to apply specifically tothe female physiology.
I wouldn't take someone who'ssedentary and obese and take
their testing protocols andapply to the athletic
population.
But when we're looking atspecific cutoffs on general
population or active population,and we dig into the appropriate
endocrine or fertilityresearch, then we can pull that
over.
Yeah, which makes makescomplete sense.

Yeah.
I I mean I think I I think it'sfascinating.
And I think it's like we we dida we did an episode a long time
ago with Dr.
M.
Ross talking about how femalesare not the research is just not
done on females.
And and so this is this isbrilliant in terms of trying to
correct that.
But it I can I get that it's areally slow process to do
because it's I mean, it's it'sit's there's a huge amount of

(24:38):
research that needs to be done.
One of the things that so I Imentioned you before we started
recording that my youngestdaughter, who is a keen track
cyclist, 16 years old, I got herto do some of my research for
me.
So she's been reading your bookraw.
But I'm fascinated by the factthat uh in those teenage years,
I think I I heard you say a statthat 60% of girls drop out of

(25:00):
sport during their teenageyears.
And that whether that's kind ofbody image staff or whether
that's their body changing andthey're not performing in the
same way.
So, what do you think are thebiggest contributors to why
these kids drop out?
And how can parents, coaches,and communities help to reverse
that trend?

StacySims (25:18):
If we look at what's coming up in the conversation
now, we have one end and we'rehaving a loud voice in
perimenopause and menopause, andit's you know, just now coming
into vogue.
If we look on the other end atpuberty, no one's really talking
about that.
And we need to because this iswhere we see epigenetic changes
because you know your bot wholebody's changing, your
biomechanics are changing,center gravity is changing, limb

(25:40):
bones will grow faster thanwhat your core strength will
come up.
And so there's so manydifferent things from a
physicality perspective thatmake young girls feel very
uncomfortable in their usualsport.
Their performance declines,they don't know what to do,
they're not re-taught how tothrow, how to run, how to jump,
how to land, how to pedal.
So they feel very uncoordinatednow.

(26:03):
The biggest wish that I have isjust for people to understand
this is a temporary decline.
Because when boys hit puberty,they have this acceleration of
an increase in performance.
But for girls, maturity is veryarbitrary because not everybody
matures at the same age in thesame fashion.
So there's a temporary decreasein performance.

(26:23):
If we acknowledge that and go,you know what, we're going to do
some functional strengthtraining here so you can relearn
how to use your bodyappropriately and put an
emphasis on being strong andpowerful, not on body weight,
because we have so much changein body weight.
So if we bring an empowermentvoice into it, and so instead of

(26:44):
going, it's a girl push-up, wesay it's a modified push-up.
And we're not defaulting to theboy as being the norm, but
we're like, okay, those arethat's what the boys are doing.
But we know inherently thatthere are differences in the way
girls respond to instruction,the way girls respond to
intensity.
So we have to look at theculture of what we're doing.
Well, example I like to usebecause my daughter's a

(27:06):
football/slash soccer player,when they're doing corner kicks,
you will see the boys team andthe boys are lining up one by
one to do corner kick practiceand they're really aggressive
and they are challenging eachother.
But the girls are like, Yeah,no, I'm not doing that until you
go two by twos.
Because now they don't feellike they're the focus of
attention.
Now they're just out there withtheir friends.

(27:27):
So it's just a variation in thecoaching that we're doing.
So if we can take thatperspective in the in the
puberty years, so we're teachingthe girls to be strong, we're
understanding that it's a verydelicate time with sociocultural
things that are going on andall the external influences that
girls have from social mediaand magazines and just cut

(27:47):
through the noise.
Say, look, we know there's atemporary decrease.
Let's work on the wholefunctional strength, and then
you're gonna accelerate on theother side.
And this decrease is maybe ninemonths, could be up to a year,
and just understanding that it'sjust temporary.
It doesn't mean that you suckat your sport, it doesn't mean
you need to drop out, it justmeans we are aware of this, and

(28:08):
there are things that we can doto improve this temporary blip,
and then you are definitelygonna succeed on the other side.

Brilliant.
That's that's reallyinteresting.
One of the so you mentionedwithin that strength training,
Bromwyn, my daughter, is gettingsome conflicting advice here,
going from her cycling coach,it's like you don't lift heavy,
and then from the school sort ofS and C coach, it's yeah, you
do lift heavy.
And and I and I get thatthey're kind of probably more
attuned to training the kidsthat are playing rugby than they

(28:36):
are a track cyclist.
So for teenage girls, shouldthey be lifting heavy?
And when I say that, you know,what I'm probably talking about
Bromin squatting 100 kilos whenshe weighs 60 kilos.
What where do what are yourthoughts around this?

StacySims (28:48):
Things great.
I'll bring it up with thescience.
So if we're looking at learningto lift heavy, it is a journey,
right?
And so if she has a history offunctional training, like
learning movement, having alighter load and more reps, then
she's got that neuromuscularconnection and she has those
motor pathways.
So now it is about how do weget more power and strength,

(29:09):
especially as a track cyclist.
You have to do that by reallytapping into the central nervous
system and the way that thenervous system recruits muscle
fibers.
So by lifting heavy, if she'shad that background of the
neuromuscular stimulation fromlighter loads, it's absolutely
safe and it's beneficial tosomething like track cycling
because you have to be able toget up and sprint at a very high

(29:30):
power output.
If we're looking at someonewho's a runner, it might be
better to do more fringecontrast type training where
we're looking at a heavier loadright into a playoff movement
into more endurance stuff.
So you're having a mix ofwhat's going on to get that
power without overloading whenyou don't necessarily need to
overload in someone who's arunner.

(29:51):
So there's different conceptsthat we have to look, sports
specificity, but the whole basisof having that history of Of it
could be two years, it could beone year of having lighter
loads and learning to move, thenyou're on your way to the
journey to learn how to liftheavy properly.
So if I look at track cycling,I'm like one of the best things
they could do is have this bigblock of just base strength

(30:15):
development through more repsand lighter loads.
And then when they hit theactual preseason, they're doing
really heavy threes and twos sothat they're just stimulating
that central nervous system tobe able to boom hit that power
when they need it.

I think we're we're definitely, you know, Charlie,
listening to you talk about yourdaughter.
I think we're we're definitelyseeing this movement in sport
and younger athletes doing a lotmore S and C.
So to hear you kind of backthat up with, yeah, that's
absolutely brilliant to hearthem, hear them doing that is
fantastic.
So I want to I want to stay onthis conversation about lifting
and strength whilst we're here.

(30:53):
Obviously, yeah, you you talk alot about perimenopause and
menopause and how women shouldchange what they're doing in a
shift from maybe kind of thisendurance or cardiovascular into
sort of more strength work.
There's many athletes that arein their, you know, female
athletes in their 40s and men aswell, actually, that are still
competing, you know, from anendurance point of view.

(31:14):
How does that, those heavylifting principles, how can how
can an athlete still includethat in their training if
they're still ultra running ordoing Iron Man training, for
example, when they're in their40s, 50s, 60s?

StacySims (31:28):
Yeah, I get that question all the time.
Because that's like the bulk ofthe people that I talk to are
all endurance athletes, andthey're like, What?
How do I put in heavy lifting?
So we look the primary reasonwhen we say heavy lifting for
perimenopausal women is the veryfirst thing that goes is the
way that your muscle contractileproteins attach to each other.

(31:49):
So if we think about myosin andactin, and these are two
proteins that create a musclecontraction when they bond
together.
And the stronger that bond, thestronger the contraction.
We have a dysregulation or achange in the way myosin bonds
to actin when we start to haveperturbations in estrogen.
Estrogen goes up and down, upand down.
So myosin becomes dysregulated.

(32:09):
This is why so many womencomplain about not being strong
before they see a loss in leanmass.
So have a change in thestrength component first, and
then they'll have the loss ofthe tissue a year or two years
later.
So if we're talking aboutmaintaining our strength and our
power, for example, going froma four-minute K run pace at ease

(32:31):
to now all of a suddenstruggling at a five-minute K
pace, that's the loss of thestrength.
So if we are doing someepisodes of heavy lifting,
especially preseason, offseason, and then you just have
maintenance during the heavyblocks of endurance, then we are
able to keep that pace downbecause we have the strength.
How do we incorporate in like arace condition or like the

(32:56):
block that's after base?
We do things like some heavylifting, posterior chain
deadlifts into hip thrusts, intoincline hill run.
Because then you're taking thefatigue from the heavy lifting
and putting it into your runningform, which you need to come
off the bike and run well.
So we look sport specificity ofhow do we put in some heavy

(33:17):
lifting that's gonna benefityour direct sport.
If you're an ultra runner, welook, okay, you have to be able
to be strong and robust toremain one uninjured and two
finish a race.
So let's put in some reallygood strength training blocks.
And it's not that you're gonnastop running, it's how do we
incorporate it into your runningprogram so that maybe the heavy

(33:37):
lifting is part of the hillday, so that you're getting that
fatigue like I was describing.
So it's just a reimagination ofwhat and how you are training
to implement it.

Yeah, I think that's really, really useful.
And for the listeners that thatare still competing, I think
it's I think it's yeah, reallyinteresting.
Sally, I think you had afollow-up to that, didn't you?

I did.
So I'm just sitting herethinking that this this is
brilliant advice for somebodythat has a specific sport, i.e.,
they're an ultrarunner or theywant to do Iron Man.
If they're just conscious,they're just focused on
longevity and they're goingthrough this phase in a
perimenopause phase, and they'rejust looking for the ideal kind
of blend of strength,endurance, what would you think

(34:20):
that would look like if youcould design a training program
really high level for somebodyto go and I know they're
probably this is I'm about tosay something I think I'm gonna
get slapped for, a standardfemale in the barimenopause
stage.
What would that well there isno standard, but that's okay.
Well, I walk straight into thatwith the avatar in general.

StacySims (34:46):
We have to look at okay, if we want to be
muscle-centric and have verystrong bones and live to be a
hundred or older than a hundred,still independently living and
having all of our cognition andreducing Alzheimer's risk, we
have to look at putting in theheavy strength training.
One to because of thedysregulation we have with the

(35:06):
myosin that I was talking aboutearlier.
But other is when you aretapping into lifting heavy loads
and you are really stimulatingthe central nervous system,
you're also tapping intoneuroplasticity.
So we see that there's anincrease in your brain
neurotrophic factor, which isyour miracle row for your brain,
but also you are reallystimulating the neural pathways.

(35:28):
And I tell people, like liftingheavy is like doing Sudoku, but
it's not only just for yourbrain, it's for your body too.
Because if you are developingstrong grip strength and you are
being overall strong in all ofyour muscle without necessarily
having a lot of lean mass,that's still way better to be
able to continue through lifebecause you have better

(35:50):
proprioception, you havestronger bones, you have
stronger ligaments and tendonsthat respond to the lifting.
And then we pepper in someendurance.
Endurance, I call it the soulfood.
It's like not the bread andbutter of what you do.
So we look at heavy liftingthree times a week and we put in
some high intensity work acouple of times a week, and then
you're like, all right, I'mgonna go out with my friends for

(36:12):
a really long ride.
I'm gonna go do coffee ride.
Sweet, do that.
That's fine.
I don't ever want to take awaysomeone's love.
But if we're looking at how dowe optimally age, we have to
look at what we're doing nowthat's going to allow us to age
in a way that we want to withoutgetting old.
So I work with a company thatis now specifically looking at

(36:32):
athletes who are wanting to keepbeing competitive and age well.
So, what are we doing now andhow do we change it?
So 10 years from now, you canstill be competitive if you
want.
Otherwise, you're still beingable to do high rocks on a whim
if you want to, or you want togo on a big hike up the summit,
then you can.
Because if we aren't changingwhat we're doing, and our body

(36:54):
is just really complacent in thetype of training that we're
doing, we're not challenging itenough to be able to do that in
10 years.

I think it's really interesting to hear you talk
about, you know, your body kindof is then in this place where
it's not challenged and youconstantly have to change
things.
You know, what you did as a20-year-old isn't going to work
throughout that, you know,throughout that life stage.
So staying on the kind of thearea of perimenopause and
menopause, I mean, you've been amassive voice and still are a
champion in terms of the area ofof menopause and and

(37:22):
perimenopause.
What do you think?
I mean, it's so overwhelmingwith the amount of information
and social media and influersand influencers, or the
information that's out there.
But what's what's the thebiggest misconception or myths
that you hear about training andnutrition when it comes to
menopause and perimenopause?

StacySims (37:40):
That you don't have to change anything.
It's one of the things whereI'm like, yes, you do.
The whole fasting conversationand intermittent fasting is
another one that is a hot buttonfor so many.
Like diet and nutrition is sucha culture that when you start
pushing those buttons, it reallycomes out.
And then I think the third oneis that everyone should be using

(38:00):
menopause hormone therapybecause then you don't have to
really change up anything.
All of those things are wrong.
Because if we look at firsthaving to change your training
and nutrition is paramount.
I mean, part of the training iswhat I just talked about.
But the other is we see there'sa significant change in our gut
microbiome in the lateperimenopausal years.

(38:21):
So we start to see an increasein the gut bugs that promote
obesity and a decrease in thosethat are more associated with a
lean and a lean body and areally good body composition.
And that's primarily because ofour sex hormones, because we
have a second pass of our sexhormones.
So it goes into the liver,liver binds it up with sex

(38:43):
hormone binding globulin, itgets shot into the intestines
via bile.
And then we have sex or are wehave little bugs in there that
will unbind them and shoot themback out as viable sex hormones.
So as we go throughperimenopause, we don't have as
much sex hormone coming in, thenwe lose that diversity.
And because the body's undersuch stress from the change in
the hormones, we're seeing anuptick in the amount of bacteria

(39:06):
that crave simple carbohydrate.
And that increases thatobesogenic phyla.
And so women are starting toput on more body fat.
And it's like, okay, what'sgoing on here?
And unfortunately, we're inthat diet culture where then
people will start to go on crazydiet trends where they won't
eat, or they'll delay their foodintake, or they'll look at ways
of like really trying torestrict to lose body fat.

(39:28):
And we see that has a massiveimpact again on gut microbiome.
So it's not really instigatingany change, but is creating a
lot of sickness and stress.
So if I could haveperimenopausal women understand
the one key thing they need todo is take care of their gut.
How do we take care of our gut?
Lots of fibrous, fruit, andveg.
And the second thing isprotein, because if we don't

(39:49):
have enough protein, we're notgoing to be able to keep
building our lean mass andmaintain by lean mass, I also
mean bone, because we becomemore anabolically resistant.
So that means our body isn't asresponsive to protein and
strength training because wehave this dysregulation of our
sex hormones that's happening inperimenopause.

I mean, I I hear so many women still, like in this
phase of wherever they are inthat kind of perimenopause
stage, going, God, my body hasreally changed.
Like I'm now, I was I've neverhad fat in places I've got fat.
What do I do about it?
And you're absolutely right.
This kind of panic of, I'lljust cut back calories, I won't
eat carbohydrates, fast.
With fasting, I there's a lotof women that are looking at

(40:31):
fasting as a way for health,longevity.
You know, there's so muchwritten now about fasting, isn't
there?
How do women navigate fasting?
And what I mean by that is isthere a better time?
You know, what would youradvice be in terms of that
fasting period?
And when is it very importantthat they are eating?
You know, should they fast, youknow, until lunchtime?

(40:52):
Or actually, is breakfast orhaving something first thing in
the morning very important?

StacySims (40:56):
Yes, having something first thing in the morning is
really important.
Part of it is our circadianrhythm.
So circadian rhythm can bereset through food intake and
night and or you know, light anddarkness.
And if we are holding foodintake until 11 or 12, we're
effectively having a phase shiftof our circadian rhythm.
So the body is like, oh, wait,I'm not supposed to be awake yet

(41:19):
because I haven't had any food.
And we see in the literature inboth men and women, but more
robustly in women, that if youhold a fast till noon or after,
you actually do not garner anyof the benefits that you see in
the literature for fasting,meaning that you're not going to
get any kind of blood sugarcontrol, you're not going to
have the telomere changes,you're not going to have a
change in gut microbiome, you'renot going to have more

(41:40):
parasympathetic drive.
You actually end up with moreobesogenic outcomes because the
body is under a significantamount of stress.
And then you have an eatingwindow that's counter to what
your circadian rhythm is wantingyou to do.
So the way that I describe itis when you wake up within a
half an hour of a natural wakeup, you have a peak of cortisol.
Cortisol's good.

(42:00):
We want cortisol, it wakes usup and it allows us to function,
but you do want to have somefood to come in so that you
don't hold that peak because wewant our blood sugar to be
regulated.
We want the body to understand,yes, there's some food coming
in, we're able to do somethings.
And then you want to look atwhen your training is.
We want to fuel appropriatelyfor training.
So you want to have some foodbefore, you want food

(42:22):
afterwards, because that'sanother driver of circadian
change.
Really, when we talk aboutfasting, I like to bring it back
down to time restrictedeatings, what our grandparents
say normal eating, but now wehave the fancy words of time
restricted, where you havebreakfast, you fuel throughout
the day, you have dinner, andyou don't have any food after
dinner.
If we end up having a reallylate night session, because you

(42:45):
know, track session is on aTuesday night and it starts at
6:30, then we don't get hometill 8.30 or 9 p.m.
and we need dinner.
Let's try to bring dinnerearlier.
And then we're having arecovery snack or mini meal.
So it doesn't interfere as muchwith our sleep as if you were
to have a heavy meal.
And then you're going to havethat overnight fast where you're

(43:07):
having a 12 to 13 hourovernight fast if you're eating
during the day and not eatingafter dinner, except for the
occasional late night sessionwhere you have to have that mini
meal.

And that mini meal being something like a
protein shake, for example,would that be what you're
talking about or something else?

StacySims (43:22):
Yeah, but real food's better.
So if you could have a bowl oflow-fat Greek yogurt with some
nuts and berries and apples,that's great.
Or eggs on toast, that's also agood thing.
So it's a protein and fiber,that's what you're after,
because then that's going tohelp with all the reparation.
We also see if you're going tobe using supplements like
collagen, right?
You want to take it at nightwhen you're going to be able to

(43:43):
dose for all the reparation.
But protein shake in a pinch,that's fine.
But we want to get some fiberand some protein in from a real
food standpoint so that you haveslower digestion and your
body's able to like use itappropriately and you don't wake
up with hypoglycemia.

Okay.
And and you mentioned about thesort of training.
So for those people that wantto train first thing in the
morning, but they don't want totrain fasted.
What would you what would be asort of a light snack or
something to have beforetraining so that they're not
doing fasted training?

StacySims (44:16):
We're all the 5 a.m.
swimmers, right?
It's like you don't want toswim with a full meal.
A lot of people don't even wantto go to the gym with a lot of
stuff in their stomach.
So it doesn't have to be a lot.
It can be like the infamousprotein coffee that's been
circulating, where it's a scoopof protein powder and cold brew
coffee with some almond milk.
That's a, you know, an easything to have in the fridge.

(44:36):
Caveat, I just said probablynot protein powders, but you
know, in a pinch, you could dothat.
You could also look at having acouple of tablespoons of
low-fat Greek yogurt and half abanana, or even that's too much.
You can look at making a smallsmoothie that you're going to
drink in the morning.
It could be, you know, 250 milsmoothie that you've had with
some berries and some yogurt andsome non-dairy milk so that you

(45:01):
don't have too much sitting inyour stomach.
Those tend to be really easygo-tos.
And so you're getting someprotein, some carbohydrate,
maybe 150, 200 calories, andthen boom, you go.
But if you're someone who'slike, I absolutely cannot have
any of that stuff in my stomachbefore I go, then you can look
at having some amino acids inyour drink and having a real

(45:22):
breakfast as soon as you gethome.
Now, the amino acids are reallyimportant for women because we
tend to go through more aminoacids when we're exercising than
men do.
And it also helps bring up theamount of circulating amino
acids.
It's like you've had a bigprotein hit before.
Protein water comes into playin that if we're talking about
what kind of stuff to put in abottle.

Okay, brilliant.
Thank you.
And thinking about all of thisstuff and thinking about my
daughter again.
So there's obviously a lot oftalk, talk around the importance
of hormone replacement therapyaround preparing many pauls.
But for younger athletes, thereseems to be when she's had any
sort of irregularities with herperiods, it's like just go on
the pill.
And that seems to be the quickand generic answer that gets

(46:05):
thrown at teenage girls, fromwhat I understand.
What are your thoughts aroundthat and advice sort of to find
out more about what's going on?

StacySims (46:15):
Because I feel like because doctors are so pressed
for time, they can't really getall the information.
And I feel like it's such aprevailing myth that if there's
a misstep in a in a young girl'speriod, they go on an OC and
they get passed out likeSkittles.
But we have to realize thatmost girls' menstrual cycles are
going to be irregular for thefirst five years after they get
their first one.
So that's where thismisconception of training too

(46:39):
hard is making your periodirregular any teenage girl.
Like if they're eatingappropriately and they're not in
low energy, that irregularityis still going to be there.
So we have to be very carefuland conscious that we're not
just automatically putting themon any kind of contraception.
If they're having severebleeding or they're having
severe cramping, that'ssomething to talk about.
There's ways of handling heavymenstrual bleeding or maharanja,

(47:02):
and it doesn't necessarily meangoing on an oral contraceptive
pill.
If someone is going, yeah,great, Stace, but I am in bed
for two days with severecramping and I just can't do
anything and I don't know whatto do, then talk to your
physician.
There are definitely things youcan do because having a period
doesn't mean you miss out onlife and you shouldn't feel like

(47:23):
you're, quote, period pronewhere you're complaining about
cramps and stuff.
It shouldn't interfere.
And I think that's the othermisconception that young girls
will have really heavy periodsand complain about having severe
cramping.
And that's just a smallminority of them.
But knowing that it's irregularand you can do things like
track your menstrual cycle andsee how you feel, symptomology,

(47:47):
you're going to get more insightinto if you are regular, when
it's coming, because we see thatyounger girls are regularly
irregular for the first fiveyears.
And then they'll set into anormal rhythm.
So if a GP is like, here, takea normal contraceptive pill,
take a pause and say, Is thisreally appropriate for my
daughter or have your daughtertake a pause and say, Is this
really appropriate for me?

(48:07):
How is this going to interferewith my training?
Is it, you know, is this reallygoing to address my
irregularity because it's not areal bleed?
It's downregulating her ownendocrine system.
So when we see things likethat, we know that there's a
change in the amygdala.
We're talking about growing anddeveloping brains.
And if we're putting anexogenous hormone like an oral
contraceptive pill into the mix,it shuts down your endocrine

(48:29):
system as it's trying todevelop.
And that's a it's a big worryfor a lot of girls as they get
to be older and they're like,wait, I was put on an oral
contraceptive pill when I was 15and now I'm 25.
What happened?
Right.
So it is a significantconversation to be had.

And so what would be the so for those sorts
of situations, whether it'sheavy bleeding, whether it's
cramps, whatever, what would besome of the strategies that
people could use to deal withthat that isn't an oral
contraceptive?

StacySims (48:57):
If we're looking from a pharmaceutical or medical
thing, you can look at acid,which is a blood coagulator.
You can start taking the firstday of bleeding, so you don't
have as heavy a bleed.
And that also helps withcramping.
If we're talking about reallysevere PMS or premenstrual
syndrome, we see that lowvitamin D levels are a
contributor.
So you want to get your bloodtested for that.

(49:18):
Each case is a little bitindividual.
I know that the AustralianInstitute of Support and the UK
equivalent and bases have reallygood resources on that.
New Zealand's putting one outtoo to really normalize what is
the menstrual cycle, how do youtrack it?
So there's some fantasticresources from some of the
sporting bodies and thegoverning bodies that you can

(49:41):
get into now because there'sbeen such an interest in what is
the menstrual cycle and howdoes it affect performance?
Does it affect performance andhow do I track it?

Brilliant.
And so I suppose I'm just goingback to my A-level biology,
which was 30 years ago, andthinking it was just a 28-day
cycle, and that was kind of likeeveryone was the same.
And clearly what I've learnedby listening to you is that that
isn't the case.
What are the extremes?
So, like I know chatting to tomy girls, it it can be as short

(50:12):
as every two weeks, but is thatsomething outside the norm, or
is that something to be worriedabout, or is that just, you
know, what what are thosevariations?

StacySims (50:21):
So I'm talking about every two weeks, and that's a
regular thing, then they need toget checked out because then
that is something that's way tooshort.
We see a normal menstrual cyclecan be anywhere from 21 to 40
days.
What lengthens is the firstphase, the follicular phase, the
low hormone phase, because thebody's becoming really stress
resilient in order to have anenvironment where we can produce

(50:45):
a really viable egg.
If we start seeing a shorteningof the cycle periodically, and
so we go from a 40-day cycledown to 28, and 28 becomes 21,
and then it starts gettingshorter and shorter, then that's
something to do with ovulationand the luteal phase.
We call it a luteal phasedeficit, and we need to get that

(51:06):
checked out.
But for the most part, you'regoing to have a variation month
to month of two to three days.
And you can see if someone isunder a lot of exam stress or
travel stress, then that mighteven extend out to 40 days
instead of their usual 32 days.
So we have to keep an eye onwhat is our allostatic load or

(51:26):
our overall stress, because thatcan significantly impact the
length.
But knowing that your normalvariation is, you know, 21 to 40
days and you fall within that,it's fine.
If you start having subsequentchanges of getting really,
really short or really, reallylong, then that's something to
get checked out.

I I I think now in the world of like in the world
of more kind of senior orprofessional sport, we're seeing
certainly in in the UK, like a,you know, a lot more testing.
I think there's still for mequite a lot of confusion about
when to test, who's testing,who's talking about those
results and what and what itmeans.
But it's really nice to seethat, you know, people are
talking about it and andtracking and talking to athletes

(52:06):
about it.
I want to jump into anotherarea for me.
Cold water and cold waterswimming.
We see so many women now coldwater swimming.
I know my mum for one lives bythe coast.
She's now started, you know,what we call bobbing, you know,
cold dipping and swimming.
And there are so many womenthat really enjoy it.
But I have heard the researchnow, some newer research around

(52:29):
we should, you know, this coldexposure and heat exposure.
So now as athletes, we shouldbe doing both.
I'm interested to know fromyour perspective, what should we
be aware of as women withregards to these extremes of
temperature?
And actually, are we anydifferent when it comes to cold
and hot?
We are.

StacySims (52:45):
There are significant six differences in
thermoregulation.
So if we think about coldexposure, I think I created an
international shitstorm when Iwas talking about how women
don't need to do or yeah,shouldn't be in ice water.
Cool water is fine, but icewater is too cold.
Because we see the researchthat goes back to the early
2000s showing that when womenare below around 10 degrees

(53:09):
Celsius, that it's too much of astress and they actually don't
garner any benefit from coldbecause it creates significant
vasoconstrictive response, whichis a threat.
Like it's so cold it causes asympathetic drive and threat.
If we get into 10 as a coolwater, then we start to see not
as severe a constriction.
And a lot of the benefits thatyou hear about cold water plunge

(53:32):
or ice water plunge that wehear in the male data of better
parasympathetic, bettermetabolic control, better mood,
better immunity, although theresponses are not as robust as
men.
We know this.
Like you can still do coolwater and get benefit, but it's
not going to be as intense abenefit as if you were a man.
When we turn to heat, women dobetter in the heat because,

(53:55):
again, of sex differences andthermoregulation.
You can put a man and a womanwho are equally fit, so they
have the same relative bodycomposition and fitness level.
And a woman will go on a saunaand after 10 minutes, she's
like, sweet, I'm just nowstarting to warm up.
And a man's like sweatingprofusely, going, Oh, I gotta
get out.
And again, it has to do withsex differences.
We see that women willvasodilate first, and so they're

(54:17):
trying to offload heat into theenvironment and they don't have
as much of a sweat response.
Their sweat glands don'tproduce as much sweat.
It takes a longer period ofwarming up before they will
start sweating, and they don'tlose as much body water when
they are sweating as when welook at men.
So if we think about it as anadvantage in racing, women do

(54:38):
better in humid conditions, hothumid conditions than men,
because they don't rely as muchon sweating.
But if we're talking about itfrom like a health standpoint,
women can spend more time in theheat.
And this is a stress that willextend all your heat shock
protein responses, yourmetabolic responses, all the
benefits that we see with heatexposure.

(54:59):
If we want to use it as atraining stress, this is really
ideal for both men and women, isafter a training session, going
into a sauna for 10 minutes toextend your training stress
without a metabolic workload onthe muscle.
Because what happens when youhit a really hot environment is
you're having blood flow go awayfrom your muscles to your

(55:21):
periphery to try to offload theheat, which drives your heart
rate up, drives your coretemperature up, and extends that
training stress.
So it's strategies to get alittle bit more out of those
hard sessions.
And again, also we can look toheat for heat acclimation for
those who are going from thesouthern hemisphere to cohen
interrace.
Like, how do I adapt to hot andhumid conditions?

(55:44):
Well, we can look at using thesauna for acclimation, but there
is a difference between whatmen should do and what women
should do.
Because men, again, find theheat a much harder stress, so
that it doesn't take as long forthem to acclimatize as it does
for women.
Those are your bigenvironmental extremes.

I'm listening to this thinking I should have
come and had a chat with youbefore I went to Kona, because I
could I reckon I could havecome up with a whole lot more
better strategies foracclimatization.
But but it's fascinating howthat differs between and I can
really relate to that saunastory of you know, like Carol
and I will be in the sauna, andI have got literally sweat
pouring off me, and I I've gotto leave, and she's only just

(56:24):
started just getting warmed up.
So that is that's reallyinteresting.
And yeah, it just it there'sjust so much, it's clearly so
much to explore.
And like I said, we we did talkabout this on the podcast a
long time ago, but um, there'sclearly a long, long way to go.
And one of the things I'm I'msitting here uh wondering uh
from a business point of view,so to change tactics again, that
there's uh you you've when Iwhen I was doing the research, I

(56:47):
was like super impressed abouthow the fact that you've been on
so many of the of the toppodcasts that are out there.
You've obviously got twobrilliant books that are really
well recognised.
Um what is it on your and yetthere would be lots of other
people, particularly with thesort of science background that
you've got, that never get thatexposure.
So what what do you think whichelement or what do you think,

(57:10):
what strategy do you think gotyou into the limelight as
successfully as you have havemanaged to do?

StacySims (57:16):
Just think part of it was naming.
Like my TED talk came out rightbefore the pandemic hit.
And so everyone was lookingonline for information and we
put out courses based on Roararound the pandemic.
So we had an uptick in our booksales, and then one of the
biggest conversations that cameout of everyone reading Roar is
wanting to know more aboutmenopause.

(57:38):
So creating a course andwriting the book for active
hairy and post-menopausal womenright at the time where everyone
started talking aboutmenopause.
So a lot of it was timing.
But my husband will always say,well, Stacey's superpower is
the fact that you can read thescience, look across the
different fields, accumulate it,synthesize it, and then bring

(58:00):
it back out to a person to beable to simplify it and talk at
a different level.
So you'll see, like if I'mtalking with Andrew Huberman,
it's more deep dive intoscience.
But then if I'm on Mel Robbins,I'm not going to talk about
myosin dephosphorylation andthose kinds of things that you
could have a deeper science.
I'm gonna say they just don'tadhere very strongly, right?

(58:22):
Which is good, but it alsobrings out a lot of haters
because then you get theclickbait and you get the small
snippets and they miss thenuances.
And I feel a lot of people havelost the ability to look at
science objectively andunderstand that when you're
looking at something on socialmedia, it's different than
having the full conversation.
So I think the other part of itis just being able to take the

(58:46):
hate for all of my colleagueswho are doing the research,
still boots on the ground sothey can do their work and just
keep pushing out the goodresearch, and then I'll
disseminate it and put it outthere for them.

Brilliant.
Brilliant.
Well, I I think it's I mean,it's it's fantastic.
And I I know Bromwyn has got ahuge amount out of reading.
Raw, Carol, my wife has beenreading next level and also got
a huge amount out of that.
So I think it's fantastic, butI think it's we'll dive deeper
into the outro about what you'vetalked about there.
But this whole kind of TED talkthrough to book, to course, to
podcast, I just think it's,yeah, I think it's fascinating,

(59:21):
and you've clearly done anexcellent job.
Now, one of the ways that wewrap up this podcast is
obviously we've talked aboutyour books, but what books have
helped you on your journey?
What books do you find yourselfrecommending to other people,
or what books stood out in kindof helping you?

StacySims (59:37):
There are a couple of The Invisible Woman is another
is one that I really liked andresonated.
Just talking about thehistorical perspective of
medicine and women beingexcluded and having really good
insights into things likeaspirin for heart disease and
how it was tested on men, andthen they're saying, Yeah, what
works for women.
So a lot of those kinds ofthings.

(59:57):
But in general, I really like.
Like like Dave Grohl's FooFighter biography.
There's a lot you can learnfrom that.
I find a lot of those kind ofopen up and really get into the
backstory of people reallyinteresting because I feel you
aren't really living life as ahuman if you don't have a lot of

(01:00:18):
life experiences.
So the more that you can drawon other people's life
experiences through books ortheir conversations, the more it
gives you insight into whatyou're doing in your own life
and how you can relate to otherpeople and bringing some of that
empathy into the livedexperiences.
So yeah, read Dave Grohl'sbook.

CharlieReading (01:00:36):
Brilliant.
Loving that record.
I like I love to Duff McKagan,the bass guitarist from Guns N'
Roses.
His autobiography is absolutelybrilliant, as is Bruce
Dickinson's, the Iron Maidensinger.
So I'm definitely going for theDave Grohl one.
And I'll I'm going to delegatethe Invisible Woman to well,
actually, we should both readthat, really.
We should both read that one.
That's awesome.
And then we also have a closingtradition on the podcast where

(01:00:58):
we get the last guest to ask thenext guest a question without
knowing who that question isfor.
And you get a question from thelegend that is Julie Moss, the
crawl of fame.
So Claire has Julie Moss'squestion lined up.

ClaireFudge (01:01:13):
Yeah.
Okay.
So Julie asked, What is yourwhy?
Why are you willing to endure?

StacySims (01:01:19):
Your why is sort of the inquisitive mind that I have
of really wanting to understandand unlock all the things.
But I think the drive andpassion is when I look at women
who are struggling and theydon't have to, like trying to
empower women through education.
As I'm getting older, seeingpeer groups who are experiencing

(01:01:40):
struggles, it's like, well,here these are the these are the
solutions.
Here's the education behind it.
But the biggest thing is mydaughter and her peer group.
I don't want them to have toexperience all the toxic
sporting culture that we've hadto endure.
I really want to instigatechange to make their lives
easier and then their kids'lives easier and bring more

(01:02:03):
equity and parity between thesexes, not saying women are
better than men and men, youknow, I don't want any of that.
I want the common conversationand women to have the same
amount of respect that's offeredto men when they walk into a
room.

Brilliant.
I think it's fantastic.
It's been amazing chatting toyou, but I think what you're the
work you're doing is isbrilliant and and really
empowering.
And as you know, the the fatherof two girls, I think I I
couldn't agree with what you'vejust said more than I do.
So obviously, I would I woulddefinitely tell people to go
check out RAW and next level.
But where else can people findout more about you?

(01:02:38):
Or how do they take thesecourses if they want to do that?
You know, tell me where to sendpeople.

Yeah, you can come to our website, go
stacysemins.com, and I use theRoyal Week because it's a team,
it's not just me.
And you can find out all thestuff that I'm doing.
We have a newsletter that youcan sign up to if you want.
I think the one that goes outtomorrow is all about hydration
in the heat and how to race inthe heat.
So to really trying to put outsolid science-backed information

(01:03:05):
that people can use.
Yeah.
And you can troll through andfind all the courses, you can
find out where I'm speaking.
And if all of that seems likeit's too much and hard work,
then you can find us on socialmedia.

And which is the social media to track you down
on?

Personally, I'm gonna say LinkedIn because LinkedIn
tends to be very objective whenpeople are having conversation.
There's not the wholenegativity and you know, kind of
when you go to Instagram andFacebook, all of that that
happens.
Although I am on Instagram andFacebook, but LinkedIn is a more
collegial way of havingconversation and and reaching

(01:03:41):
out.

Amazing, Stacy.
It's been really fascinatingchatting to you.
I love the work that you'redoing.
Love listening to you on otherpodcasts as part of the research
for this.
So yeah, huge congratulationsto getting to where you are.
But yeah, keep up the amazingwork and thank you very much.
Thanks for having me.
It's been great.
So, what did you make of thatamazing interview with Stacy
Sims?

Well, I think I've been indulging myself in the
last few weeks of our podcast,is what I'm gonna say.
But amazing to speak to toStacy, you know, in the world of
physiology and and metabolism,like she is such a loud voice.
And yeah, to speak to her wasjust brilliant today.
You know, like when we startout and we were asking her about
her background, I didn't knowuntil we did this research how

(01:04:24):
much background she had in sportand the cycling and Iron Man
background.
So I can see now kind of herjourney towards maybe how she
got to where she where she isnow.
And just that inquiring mind,you know, actually, like when
you're in a group of you'll knowthis from being in a group of
men as well, like there's alwaysthose questions, isn't it?
And then you go, well, why doesthat happen?
And I think definitely in thisgroup in a group of women, there

(01:04:46):
is always like that's it feelsreally unfair.
Like, how can men do that andwomen can't, in terms of like
changes in body composition?
And you know, her inquiringmind has got her to where she
is, you know, being having a youknow a doctorate and uh
teaching, lecturing and beingthis loud voice.
So yeah, it was it wasfascinating to see where she's
come from, I think, for me aswell.

Yeah, and I I think I think it's kind of
highlights how I I was justthinking about it, thinking, you
know, she's she's risen toreally quite big fame in sort of
the last couple of years,hasn't she?
And and I was thinking, why isthat how I always will think,
well, why?
And obviously she's got likeyou say, she's got this
brilliant foundation in sport,like across so many different

(01:05:27):
aspects, but at a really highlevel.
So racing Kona multiple times,X Terror Worlds, all of that
sort of stuff is is like superimpressive, but it gives her,
then when she applies thatscientific mind, it gives her
the ability to kind of lookdeeper.
But then I think also just atthe end of the conversation, it
came out that, you know, I wantmy daughter to have a better

(01:05:49):
understanding and approach andsupport than I was getting at
her age.
So that that kind of createdthe full circle for me.
It was like, okay, that's thewhy, really, isn't it?
That's what's now driving hermore than ever before, I think.
And I think what's fascinatingfrom a business point of view is
how, you know, actually, if youthink about it, really the TED

(01:06:10):
talk seems to have driven thethe initial conversation.
That that's what went viral.
But sh but it from a marketingpoint of view, you then have to
have these what I would callattraction marketing devices for
people to go, all right, thatwas good.
Now I want to learn more.
And that's her books and that'sher courses.
And then having other platformsin addition to the TED Talk,

(01:06:31):
like the podcasts, has andalmost the attraction marketing
devices give her the opportunityto go on the podcast.
So I think that whole fullcircle is really brilliant.
So yeah, I think fascinating.
What from a science point ofview did you really pull out
from from the conversation?

I think it's, you know, the the world of science
and research in female health,you know, has exploded, but
actually she has been one of thefirst voices in it.
You know, when when you know Iwas attending conferences or
looking at new research, hername come came up a lot.
So so many years ago, you know,this was happening.
So it was amazing to actuallyspeak to her and get to kind of

(01:07:07):
the nitty-gritty of actuallywhat does that mean?
You know, what does it mean forus as females to take away and
and do?
I think just going back to yourtalking about how she got to
where she was, like I absolutelyagree, like this TED talk at
the beginning and then havingall of those like marketing
attraction tools.
I think also, and I'm gonna saythis, and she talked about the
haters out there, is she hasstood up and been what was at

(01:07:29):
the beginning a little bitcontroversial about research and
female health and actuallyreally standing for something.
So I think that is also ifyou're willing to stand up for
what you believe in and theresearch she's doing has got her
to where she is, despite you'regonna have those haters that
don't believe in it or don'twant to follow what she's
saying.
So that is really interestingfrom a business perspective for

(01:07:49):
me, how she's she maybe didn'tuh start out to try and do that,
but actually that's what she'sdone.
And and I feel that's kind ofwhere she's got her her kind of
standing as well.

But she also pointed out that it was also a
timing thing, wasn't it?
And she has been talking aboutthis at a time where it it's
kind of it's suddenly, itsuddenly got the traction that
it wasn't getting 10 years ago.

And I th I I think the um the pieces of research
that I kind of try and take awayand and speak to my clients
about is particularly that shebrought up today about this, you
know, the differences in ourfueling.
Like we do need to havecarbohydrate like before and
after training and that littlebit of protein.
And so it was really great tohear her say, like, it you don't

(01:08:31):
have to have a full meal, likethat this is not what we're
talking about.
We're just talking about alittle something.
You know, what she was talkingabout, maybe even 15, 30 grams
of carbohydrate, but with alittle bit of protein in, and
it's tiny amounts.
So it's really good to hear hertalking about, you know, that
this isn't about overfueling,it's just saying just have a
little bit to decrease thatstress cortisol before you start
training.
So yeah, what she was talkingabout with the science was was

(01:08:53):
great.
What did you think about thecaffeine conversation as well?
That was right at the verybeginning, wasn't it, about the
differences in caffeine.

I think it's fascinating.
Absolutely.
Like, and when she was talkingabout it, I I'd it reminded me
of the conversation I'd heardher have on another podcast
where she'd talked about thesleep, the sleeping tablet.
And I was like, well, actually,this is really interesting,
isn't it?
Because the female body'sclearly dealing with, I mean,
like caffeine is obviously adrug, maybe it's a good one, but

(01:09:20):
I uh I'm biased at all on that.
But fascinating how the femalebody deals with that drug very
differently to the male body,and both whether that's a look,
you know, this is a healththing, so therefore you need to
take less of it, or you kind of,you know, I I took from that
that a female would need to stopdrinking coffee earlier in the

(01:09:40):
day than a guy because thathalf-life is gonna impact their
sleep longer as a female than amale, but also from a sports
point of view, going, well,okay, I need to use this
strategically differently to theguys because it's gonna, it's
gonna impact my performance in adifferent way.
That's that's fascinating.
And that's we've never had thatconversation on the podcast

(01:10:01):
before.

And I and I think this comes back to like this
this very kind of, you know,there's a lot so much data out
there that is very is verygeneralized.
And actually, when it comes tofemales, what you know, really
what she was kind of saying isthis is what the data is showing
us, but actually it also withinthat is very like personalized,
like a different one woman isgoing to respond slightly
differently to another.
And we actually don't know, youknow, whether it's gonna take

(01:10:24):
up to 90 minutes to kick in oran hour to kick in.
But only can you know if you goout and test it yourself and
understand.
And I think that's what itcomes back to is actually, you
know, tracking.
You know, you were talkingabout your daughters and
particularly your daughtercycling, you know, actually
tracking what's going on from afrom a menstrual cycle point of
view, how, you know, how shegets on with caffeine or

(01:10:44):
supplements that she takes isone of the best ways for her to
be able to, and and for a femaleto be able to actually find out
what does your body do withwith supplements, with sleep,
with fueling, um to be able towork it out.

I think the the mo the the like having had now a
few minutes to sort of reflecton this conversation, it's one
of those conversations where wecould have sat down for a whole
day with her.
So the questions would have, Imean, we probably did half of
the questions that we'dpre-prepared.
And now that we're just sittinghere talking, it's like, oh,
but there's all of thesefollow-up questions.
And I could say, you know, andif I'd got Carol on one side and

(01:11:17):
Bromin on the other side, I'dbe like, right, well, we have
all of these different questionsto come out, one from the
teenage and one from the kind ofthe middle aged.
And you're like, yeah, there'sI mean, brilliant, but but so
many more follow-up questions.
Yeah, a fantastic episode,loads to learn, and loads to
kind of realize that we need tolearn more on and and dive
deeper into.

(01:11:38):
So more on that on the on thepodcast in the future.
Um, in the meantime, everyoneat home, keep on training.

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The Science of Female Performance: Challenging Sports Science Assumptions with Dr Stacy Sims

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