May 7, 2024 • 53 mins
We continue on with Kritter and Jessica as they read through The Two Towers, chapters 4 and 5. We learn about Ents, hear some theories, and meet an old friend. Again.
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica (00:06):
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, Kritter, and I'myour host Jess.
Kritter (00:18):
And we're continuing this adventure with the Two
Towers by JRR Tolkien, with meas the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:25):
And me as the Tolkien first-timer.
Kritter (00:28):
In this, our second episode of Season 3, we're going
to discuss Book 3, Chapters 4and 5.
Before we dive in, Jessica,what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Jessica (00:41):
I am feeling good.
It's really good to be back inhobbit land uh, excuse me, in
tolkien land, um I misspoke, uh,but we do spend some time with
the hobbits and that's why theywere the uppermost on my mind.
Um, on a personal note, gotsome really good news today
closed on a brand new house, soyou know all the things.
Super, super excited, excited.
Kritter (01:02):
Really good day, Overall Excellent day.
Lots of reading for the episodeand then, you know, closing on
a house casually, super casualno big yeah, nothing, big yeah,
nothing.
Big over here.
Really, I think it's stormingor about to, so we'll see what
happens with this recording, butit'll be fine, it's going to be
(01:24):
fine.
I'm not worried about it at all.
I think it's going to be great,and this weekend, just you know
, a fun little thing about me ismy dad got my mom a massage for
Christmas and she was going to,like, come up to my area to go
to the spa and I was going to,just like you know, fall on the
sword and join her, I guess.
And so that's this weekend, soI'm going to have a spa day on
(01:46):
Saturday.
Jessica (01:47):
Such a good daughter.
Kritter (01:49):
I know, I know I don't know what they would do without
me.
I'm just so I sacrifice so muchfor them.
But anyways, looking forward tothat, nice, yeah, okay.
So shall we get started on theactual book?
The reason we're here, yeah,okay.
(02:13):
Oh, that thing.
Yeah, yeah, that old thing, allright.
So book three, chapter fourtree beard.
So in this chapter, Merry andPippin stumble upon tree beard,
aka Fangorn, the eldest of theents, the shepherds of the trees
.
The ents have been around for avery, very long time and had
never heard of hobbits.
In fact, hobbits didn't have aplace on their very long
established list of livingcreatures.
Did you find this interestingor surprising?
Jessica (02:37):
I did.
I love the fact that they, inorder to try and keep straight
how many creatures they are,they decided to write a song
about it.
I thought that that wasprecious, um and I.
There's so much to love abouttree beard.
His vibe, from the verybeginning, is I am prepared to
dislike you, but I'll try not tobe hasty, which puts me in mind
(02:59):
of a certain other creature.
So you know, I, I, I really Iloved everything about Treebeard
and everything we learned aboutEnts here Absolutely surpassed
what I got from the movies,which was fantastic and it was
just very cool and veryendearing.
Kritter (03:20):
Yeah, I really liked well.
First of all, the list reallyreminded me of like.
Did you have the growing up,maybe like a children's book or
like flashcards that are like Ais for antelope, b is for
buffalo, c is for cheetah?
Did you have like that?
You know where it's likeanimals and letters.
That's kind of I don't know why, but like whenever he was doing
(03:42):
the little rhyme about all thecreatures, it just reminded me
of that.
It's like there's no H's forhobbit.
That's so sad.
But then they ultimatelydecided to add the hobbits,
which I think was great.
Yes, yes, so that's good and inwhich the hobbits lived.
(04:07):
Treebeard inquired aboutwhether the hobbits had seen or
heard of the Entwives who hadbeen lost long ago.
Did any part of this storybecause it was pretty long pique
your interest?
Jessica (04:16):
Absolutely so I think that my big takeaway is that the
story about the Entwives ispretty sad.
I thought it was a really kindof a sad story.
And then you know that theEntwives had different tastes
and that they liked certainthings and that it was
ultimately a compliment to theShire that he thought that the
(04:36):
Entwives would enjoy it there.
But there was a highlight that Imade there where he said a
little literary umami, if youwill, our hearts did not go on
growing in the same way when hetalks about the separation of
the ents and the ent wives, andI just thought it was really sad
.
Um, you know, and he later inthe chapter talks about how he
(05:00):
wishes to actually see his uhone more time.
Kritter (05:05):
I'm not going to try to pronounce her name, it was
terrible uh-huh, it was sad, itwas really sad, um, and I gather
that the entwives basicallyinvented agriculture.
Is that what?
Jessica (05:18):
like, is that?
Kritter (05:18):
that's what I got from it, that's what it sounded like
to me, which is that was kind ofcool.
Jessica (05:23):
Um, you know, I feel like the Entwives probably
fostered the Shire you know.
So after he explains why hethought they might like the
place, I'm like.
Oh, Hobbit cozy is totallytheir vibe.
Are we sure there wasn't afounding Entwife?
Kritter (05:41):
Yeah, did they, like, invent it or something?
Um, maybe, um, so, speaking ofyou know, maybe they invented
the Shire.
What do you think?
Do you have any personalheadcanons about what happened
to the Entwives, because it'ssuch a mystery at this point?
Jessica (05:59):
So I think, kind of like how Treebeard was implying
that some Ents became moretree-like and essentially
reverted to being essentiallyregular trees- that maybe
something, some kind of entropy,took over for the entwives and
maybe they became little appleorchards or cornfields or wild
(06:24):
grain or you know like.
Maybe they got so connected toa place that they also kind of
stopped venturing out.
Wow, okay so to me is headcanon , for I don't want to
think about anybody doinganything bad to ent wives, so I
like my story better.
Kritter (06:45):
Right, because in the book itself they were like so
this terrible thing happened Ican't remember if they had a
name for it, but it was justlike the reckoning this
devastating thing that happenedto the land that the Entwives
lived in, you know the.
Brownlands, yeah, the Brownlands, and during the war against
Sauron, he just, he justobliterated it, yeah, and the
(07:08):
question was was that their endor did they move on right?
Because, uh, tree beard hadheard tales that maybe they
headed one way or the other wayor the other way, um, and no one
had known, and they hadsearched and searched and not
found them.
What, what?
Jessica (07:24):
What if Goldberry was an ent wife?
Kritter (07:28):
What if?
Jessica (07:30):
She was very connected to the land that they were in.
Kritter (07:35):
Sorry, no, I mean Goldberry is like.
We always circle back to herlike, ooh, what if this was her,
her and Tom.
Jessica (07:45):
I really like the river sprite or river goddess,
because it really seems to fither narrative to a t?
Um, but she's just so connectedto the land that I was like
maybe you know, we don't knowmaybe.
Kritter (07:58):
Um, I know one theory is that they like how sam
mentioned in, I think, chapterone or one of the first chapters
, that, uh, some his cousin orsomething had seen trees walking
, remember?
Yes, that is the.
That's what I am latching on toas the.
That's where they are.
Like I want them to be near theshire.
(08:20):
Um, I mean, I do too.
That's like the only evidence Ihave in support of it, other
than the fact that the Entsthink that they would like the
Shire also.
But I would rather that thanthe sad ending.
But I also saw when I wasGoogling around somebody had the
theory and I don't subscribe tothis theory, but I think it's
(08:40):
fun that the Entwives evolved,or devolvedolved, whatever you
want probably evolved intohobbits.
How do you feel about thattheory?
Jessica (08:55):
I think that's too small for them.
Honestly, I think that they'relike abstract beings about.
I look at tree beard and Ithink of appear to tree beard
and I am like not to belittle myhalfling friends because we
know I love them, but they arebeings with a capital b yeah,
(09:17):
the hobbits are.
Kritter (09:18):
I also like I want to say it's pretty well established
.
The hobbits are like human,humanesque, right, and that's
not the vibe that I get from theEnts right there.
Not at all.
They're pre-troll beings of theearth.
Basically, I don't subscribe tothat.
It is a fun one though.
It's a fun little theory that Iwouldn't have thought of myself
(09:39):
for sure, although themcultivating the Shire, that is
something I like, which kind ofgoes along with the thing that I
like, which is that that'swhere they live now, or
somewhere near there at least,because I don't want them to die
.
Jessica (09:51):
I want, I want, a happy ending with that well in the
shire, generally speaking, isjust a safer place to be right
like it's relatively untouchedand pristine still, so it seems
as safe a place as any agreed.
Kritter (10:06):
Um, okay, so we meet treebeard, we talk about the
hobbits, we talk about the Entwives.
It's a long chapter, buteventually treebeard called an
Ent moot ent moot, havingnoticed that Saruman was
becoming a real problem.
While it was ongoing, Merry andPippin spent some time with
another Ent, Bregalad, whoexplained to them that the orcs
(10:29):
had been cutting trees down forno reason.
The Entmoot concluded with theEnts deciding to march against
Saruman to war.
Now this went down verydifferently in the movies.
If you remember, you might notDid you enjoy how it played out
in the book.
Jessica (10:43):
I did.
I thought that it was much morecontext.
So first off, that they met adifferent Ent in person and got
a name, and that that Ent hadyou know, his homeland had been
ravaged by the orcs and theprogression of the Ent moot.
Also, I don't know that themovie necessarily had time for
(11:07):
it, so it's really not shadeagainst how peter jackson chose
to do it, but there was a realprogression because, as you
mentioned, it was kind of alonger chapter.
Um, there was a realprogression from when we first
encountered treebeard, uh, tohis call to arms and talking
about the treachery of aneighbor in regards to Saruman
and how he used to come to theforest, but not anymore.
(11:30):
And you know, there was a realprogression through the course
of the chapter which wasactually kind of well, um, woven
through.
It wasn't overly, um, in yourface, uh.
So I thought that it kind ofjust flowed subtly in the
background, kind of like Ent'sspeak, you know.
(11:53):
So I thought that that was kindof neat because you know, when
he first met them, you know hewas just saying that there's
something amiss and then he isessentially fomenting rebellion
and calling his peers to arms tohold Saruman accountable for
the actions of himself and hisorcs.
It's a pretty big transition.
Kritter (12:16):
It was, and I'm not going to lie, I'm going to be
completely transparent and Iwant to say I admitted this like
the first time I read the booksI remember thinking the Tom
Bombadil chapters were like dumbright.
And this time around I did notfeel that way at all.
I was like fascinated by all ofit.
So this time around, I can'tremember how I felt the first
(12:39):
time whenever I read this, but Idid find myself kind of like
like looking at how much timewas left in the chapter and I
feel so bad about that, but likeit did feel very long to me.
And part of me wonders if it'sone because of Andy Serkis'
performance, because he did theEnt thing, which is right, and I
(13:01):
had it sped up to.
I always have it sped up to 1.3because I can't handle normal
narrator speed.
It's just too slow for me.
Even at 1.3 it was like reallyslow.
So I wonder if that hadsomething to do with it.
I didn't speed it up anyfurther than 1.3 and I also
wonder if that was a deliberatemove on Tolkien's part to kind
(13:24):
of put us in the Ent mindsetright.
Yeah, we're not gonna rushthrough this chapter, we're not
gonna be hasty, I'm gonna takeyou on the journey that
treebeard went on to go fromthere's something a little off
to we're declaring open war asthe first group of people to
declare open war so far in thisseries, right.
Jessica (13:47):
Like yeah, and that's definitely significant.
It is.
Yeah, it's really Nature itself.
Nature itself is declaring waron Saruman.
Kritter (13:56):
Yes, and because of his cruelty, because it, like what
he's doing, is a direct attackon life and you know, the earth
or the middle earth and uh, andso, even though I did feel like
it was long in the moment, thechapter after the chapter, I was
like dang, like that was reallygood, like you got a lot out of
(14:17):
that one, and so I will say Ialso was like dang, how much
biscuit, how much longer is thischapter?
Jessica (14:23):
so so I you know, as you know, we make our outline
and I'm like, oh cool, it's abreezy.
Two chapters, no problem, I'llget through it.
And by the time we're gettingintroduced to the second and
quick beam.
I'm like oh, we're still going.
Kritter (14:40):
Oh, the answer Okay.
Jessica (14:44):
Continues.
Kritter (14:45):
oh, the answer still continues so I wasn't
necessarily anxious for it toget over, but it was a thick
chapter compared to what I wasexpecting, because I was like oh
, we meet tree beard and I thinkI was just kind of a little
dismissive of that and, yeah, Ifeel like the chapter showed me
otherwise I do feel like thewriting that, since the parties
(15:07):
have broken up and we stillhaven't met frodo and sam yet,
this, this book or whatever, um,the, it's interesting how we
kind of leap ahead in likepretty big strides, right, it's
like, okay, you know, we'restarting with meeting treebeard
at the beginning of this chapterand by the end of the chapter
they're at the steps of Isengard, like you know, like that's,
(15:32):
that's a big, like change.
You know, we're not messingaround, we're, whenever we get
to a Marion Pippin POV, by golly, we're going to make some
strides, is this?
what he's doing.
So it's, uh, it's.
It's been interesting for sure,Um the pacing and everything
having to follow multiple POVs.
Finally, because, like in theHobbit.
Jessica (15:52):
That was one of the things that that was one of the
things that jumped out to mewhen we switched gears to
chapter five was oh so there aretwo.
Kritter (15:59):
There's still two full days behind them, so to your
point, the kind of theleapfrogging of the timeline
seeing where we're at, uh, withthe with the separate parties is
very interesting yeah, becausein some books like I want to
like the wheel of time, forexample no spoilers at all, but
it's like if there's somethinghappening, you will get, like
(16:20):
you know, one character that'sexperiencing it and then, like,
immediately following, that willbe the next character who's
like picking up right where thatleft off in time.
Essentially that happens a lot,and so it's just like you're
literally like you know,everything is happening in rapid
succession within the confinesof a chapter too, like you
switch POVs mid chapter.
(16:41):
This is very much like block.
This is Merry and Pippin's time.
We're gonna.
Jessica (16:46):
We're gonna make progress I do feel like they're
bigger blocks, so far.
Kritter (16:51):
Yeah, big chunks, like I'm.
When I was looking at thechapter titles when we were
working on like our overall whatwe're gonna read outline, I was
just like, oh my gosh, likesome of these chapters are like
that's just a chapter, like thatone thing like I would think
some that title would bemultiple chapters, but no, it's
just one.
Jessica (17:10):
So, yeah, that's the fun part, folks, of letting the
first time readers set apreliminary outline and then the
vet will review it and go hey,wait a minute.
Based on some things I'm notgoing to clarify for you, I
would like to revise thatoutline.
Kritter (17:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think today in a DM I was like
this is a big boy read so weshortened it.
So anyways, we're getting alittle far afield.
But you did mention that natureitself is rising up against
Saruman, which I think I alsoclocked, the symbolism of it all
(17:50):
, and I remember in the Hobbitand maybe even in Fellowship of
the Ring, we noted that Tolkienhas I know he doesn't like
allegory, but he's got a clearenvironmentalist tilt Slant,
slant, yeah, okay, so it's notjust well.
Well, I know it's not just me,because you talked about it
before.
(18:11):
I think it reared its headagain here.
Jessica (18:12):
So there were a couple.
I have the receipts, would youlike?
Kritter (18:14):
to hear that I would love the receipts okay.
Jessica (18:17):
So first off is uh, you know, when treebeard and Merry
and Pippin are talking beforethey even get to treebeard's
house which, by the way,treebeard's house is a thing I
would have liked to have seenSomebody please create a
Treebeard's house for me, please, and thank you.
But anyways, they were chattingand Treebeard gets asked if he
(18:40):
knows of Gandalf and he said,yes, he's the only wizard that
really cares about trees, and Ithought that that was, again
precious.
And then he was talking aboutthe treachery of the neighbor.
He was talking about the orcsthat Saruman had created and how
(19:03):
he felt that they were tainted.
I can't use tainted in thiscontext.
They were, you know, an evilblend, potentially, of men and
orc, because they were able towithstand the sunlight, and so
it is a mark of evil things thatthey cannot abide the sun, but
Saruman's orcs can, and so hehypothesizes that perhaps
(19:27):
there's the blood of men in them, you know, and he just talks
over and over about that.
And again, the treachery of aneighbor.
So I it's not literary, umami,right, but it's just a
simplistic way to, to, tosuccinctly put it, and I thought
that it was brilliant.
And then the other thing istalking about trolls.
(19:48):
Being a mockeryorn slashTreebeard as a representative of
nature, saying this cannotstand and we must fight.
Kritter (20:12):
This is unnatural and evil and therefore we have to
rise against, rise against.
Um, I love whenever Tolkien'slike attitudes obviously align
with mine.
Who doesn't love that?
But also that like, even thoughhe didn't like allegory or
whatever, it still comes through.
Sometimes I'm like, yes, I lovethis about this.
This is great.
Um, oh, also, so there wassomething the the difference in
(20:37):
this from the movie that Ireally really liked was the ents
came to their own conclusionthat they were going to go to
war against Saruman after thelike at the Ent moot because in
the movie, if you'll recall,they the hobbits like tricked
them into going close enough toIsengard so that they would see
(21:00):
the destruction.
And I'm and you know, Ents areincredibly old.
You know presumably wise beingslike you don't need little
hobbits to to show you the wayright, and you've been living in
this forest so it makes sensethat you would know what's
happening with it.
Um, so I think, yeah, when itcomes to like which one do I
(21:20):
like better this one.
I think it makes more sense andit was a fun thing in the movie
where it's like oh, the closeryou are to danger, the farther
you are from harm.
Of course I like the hobbitsbeing like hobbity, but at the
same time, it didn't make asmuch sense as the ants coming to
their own conclusion, in myopinion.
Jessica (21:36):
I definitely like the autonomy play of them.
You know, having thewherewithal to say this is not
right and we must put an end toit.
I I also believe that.
Um, I did like that.
I did find what I believe is amovie quote, um, in there that
says we do not say anything init unless it is worth taking a
long time to say and Ihighlighted it because I was
(21:58):
like I'm pretty sure this madeit in there in some way- it did,
except for it sounded more likea long time to say.
I cannot talk on .65.
Kritter (22:18):
Yeah, it's tough, but I loved it.
I really like the Ent parts inthe movie because it's tough,
but that's I loved.
I really like the Ent parts inthe movie because it's just like
really Well, to use your word,precious right Because he's just
so lovable, even though theHobbits are like, oh my gosh,
let's go, let's move on.
Let's pick up the pace a littlebit, but he just doesn't.
(22:39):
He just doesn't pick up thepace until the time comes, and
then they're gonna take onSaruman until he gets heated.
Jessica (22:45):
Until he gets heated, he's heated.
Oh baby going back yeah, soeveryone's.
Kritter (22:52):
The ents are on the march, right, they go to war
singing songs, etc.
Um, but then eventually, youknow, as the as their pace
continuesbeard acknowledges that, with Saruman as an opponent,
the Ents may very well bemarching to their death, but he
resolves to march on anyway,noting that doing so may help
(23:14):
the other creatures inMiddle-earth and acknowledging
that Doom would find them anywayif they chose to stay home.
Would you call this bleak orrealistic?
Jessica (23:25):
I'm going to go with the pragmatic play, which I
actually love to see from a cast, a set of characters in a story
that could be quite removed andhave quite kind of a skewed
perspective.
Yeah, so I thought that thatwas relatively insightful, so I
that didn't bother me at all.
I was like, okay, so he is withit.
(23:47):
Enough.
I feel like I'm questioning thesanity of an entity and that's
not what I'm trying to say, butlike he's pretty dang old.
He's been around a really longtime, but he has you know, put
all of the context cluestogether and has a really good
sense of what's really goingdown.
Kritter (24:08):
Yeah, I feel like it's relatable, right?
Because you know, in real lifesometimes if I'm angry or
whatever, I'll get so worked upabout something and like put a
plan into action something, andlike put a plan into an action,
maybe I send an email or, likeyou know, do something out of
anger, say something, send atext message, whatever out of
anger, and then once thathappens, it's you like take a
(24:31):
breath and you're just like thismay not turn out the way that I
wanted it to, you know, and andit's just interesting how
obviously his thing was on amuch larger scale than something
like that, but it's justcompletely relatable in my
opinion.
You can't just ride the heatand the intensity and the
excitement and the adrenalineall through something Almost
(24:53):
without fail.
You're going to stop and pauseand be like oh God, okay, I
guess we're doing this.
So I liked that.
I like that about it, great,okay.
So, uh, as I said, it's a longchapter.
I tried to pull the highlightsout.
Was there anything else forthis chapter before we move on?
Did you, did you like thechapter?
Jessica (25:14):
I think we kind of talked about that yes, I did
like the chapter, so I thinkthat this is fun for me when I
find little nuggets.
They're not, they're not.
They don't change them either.
You know what I mean?
They don't change which way theship is heading in any way
whatsoever.
I clearly already like thestory, but these are little
(25:34):
treasure troves of informationthat I had no way of knowing.
And, again, they don't changethe bulk and breadth of the
story, which is why adaptationprobably chose to leave it
behind.
But it's extra context that, tome, makes the fabric of these
stories richer and makes meexcited to go back and re-watch
and, with you know, just thislittle bit more umph yeah, I
(25:59):
agree.
Yeah, it'll be fun going backand watching again um, I did
have one other thing from thischapter.
While um treebeard was talkingabout Saruman, he did say he is
plotting to become a powercapitalized.
Um, so I just thought thatagain that just stood out to me
(26:24):
that even somebody from afarwho's not having direct
interactions with him can seewhat he is up to and where he's
trying to go.
And it seemed very significantto me that it was capitalized.
Kritter (26:38):
A power.
Yeah, it would make you wonderwhat all in middle earth would
be classified as a power with acapital p.
You know, yeah, because ifsaruman wasn't yet as the head
of the white council, what iswhat?
What does you know?
Jessica (26:53):
saran, presumably he's still trying to elevate from
there and dear god.
What does that mean?
Kritter (26:58):
what does that mean exactly?
That's that mean Exactly?
That's a good point, okay, sothere being no further business
about chapter four, let's moveto book three, chapter five the
white writer.
So we're back with Aragorn,legolas and Gimli.
They examined the scene fromthe battle between the orcs and
the writers of Rohan and areencouraged to find some tracks
(27:20):
and the leftovers from thehobbits lembas snack.
So I loved how both Legolas andAragorn agreed that the fact
that they ate first thing beforeeven fleeing to safety was
pretty clear proof that thesewere hobbits they were dealing
with anything stand out to youfrom the sequence um, just that,
I love them.
Jessica (27:40):
And they were looking for footprints from the mystery
man that they spotted the nightbefore, and I love them.
And they were looking forfootprints from the mystery man
that they spotted the nightbefore and I was like, and this
is why these guys are thehunters, trackers and
professionals, cause it wouldn'teven occur to me to be looking
for footprints for thesuspicious man.
So, um, I I did love that theywere looking for it.
(28:01):
I did love the little kind ofthrowaway comment about the
Lembas bread, and then there wasa little bit of a quip in there
about trying hard to find them,because this is the part where
it says you know, they foundmarkings, but it's still two
days old and I think Gimli isgrousing and so, um, they're
(28:25):
talking about supplies runninglow and we can show our
friendship by starving together.
Kritter (28:30):
So I was like okay things are getting a little
tense a little.
It kind of reminds me of thehobbits in uh in murkwood.
A little bit right, becausethey're all just like they get
so grumbly and annoyed with eachother.
Okay, so I'm not.
So I'm not gonna lie.
Whenever I was reading thesequence, you know they're
inspecting the battle scene, allthat stuff.
(28:51):
Usually when I'm watching themovies I have the anecdote, the
everyone knows the anecdote.
Where did you know that?
You know Viggo Mortensen brokehis toe whenever he kicked the
helmet out of anger.
Oh my God, so exciting.
I didn't have anything likethat from the sequence, so I
just wanted to flag it that hadwe been watching the movie I
would have had a fun fact ready.
But I don't for this.
Jessica (29:11):
So did you know that our friend and former guest, don
Marshall, made merch about thatvery typical anecdote moment?
That seems to be veryquintessential Lord of the Rings
experience.
Kritter (29:26):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, he's got some really good
merch, yeah.
So I totally believe it.
I completely believe it.
So they track the hobbits intoFangorn Forest and eventually
find where the hobbitsencountered Treebeard, though
they have no idea what to makeof Treebeard's tracks, that's
when they see the creepy old man, or a creepy old man once again
(29:51):
.
Okay, so what was yourimmediate reaction?
Did you know who this was, orat least strongly suspect?
Jessica (29:58):
I really, really hoped that it was Gandalf.
I really really hoped that itwas Gandalf.
So there was a comment madeearlier by Legolas saying that
he heard the horses calling outas if to a friend, and so I had
highlighted it and added a noteand just Shadowfax calling it
(30:20):
now Uh-huh, yeah.
So I'm like I really hope, andI honestly have never heard the
term the white rider, so Inothing to the name of this
chapter.
It totally just blew right overmy head.
Um so I didn't think anything ofit.
Um and so when the when an oldman appeared again, I'm like,
please be Gandalf, please beGandalf, please be Gandalf.
(30:40):
And you know they, Tolkien dida good job making you wait until
the very end to be like, okay,no, legit it is, it's Gandalf.
Kritter (30:48):
Yeah, but we did find out that it wasn't Gandalf the
night before.
Jessica (30:54):
No, and that gave me goosebumps, that made all the
hair on the back of my neckstand up.
I did not like it.
Kritter (31:00):
No, ma'am I had forgotten.
I like when I saw him I waslike, oh, it's Gandalf, like
hello, like you know, he's gonnashow up, it's gonna be amazing,
completely forgot.
No, that wasn't Gandalf, thatwas Saruman.
We should have been freaked outand instead I was like easy
breezy, not a problem.
Um, creepy a little creepy.
Jessica (31:19):
yeah, I thought it was super creepy, but we did find
out that that's why we saw agiant eagle.
So that was, you know, kind ofjustifying that that's why we
saw a Gwaihir.
Kritter (31:29):
Mm-hmm.
Jessica (31:32):
And the other.
Sorry, go ahead.
Kritter (31:35):
I was just going to say you mentioned, like we did find
out ultimately that it wasGandalf, so I put his reveal.
It was so dramatic so they tryto attack him, but he commands
them not to and, as if by magic,they don't like.
Ghibli freezes, Legolas dropshis bow and is like surprised by
it.
They ask his name.
Of course he does not answer.
They see his white garments andaccuse him of being Saruman and
(31:57):
in the most flamboyant in mymind, in my mind's eye, way
possible leap and flourish,finally reveals himself to be
Gandalf.
So how do you feel about allthat?
Jessica (32:10):
So I do feel like there might have been like a little
bit of a glamour happening orwhatever, because even Aragorn,
you know, afterwards says myeyes, you know how could I not
see you?
Afterwards says my eyes, youknow how could I not see you?
Uh, so I do feel like there's alittle bit of mysticism around
that reveal for sure, um, butyeah, I thought it was, I
(32:32):
thought it was good.
I think that I feel like themovie version did it justice.
You know it was, it was enough.
Did it justice?
You know, yeah, it was, it wasenough.
Um, I think that what I likedabout it the most is the.
Even in the writing it's clearthat he's he's Gandalf and yet
not 100% Gandalf.
(32:53):
You know he's a little, it's alittle rusty or there's spots,
or you know he's like, oh,Gandalf, that sounds familiar
sure, yeah, that's totally right.
Kritter (33:04):
Um, okay, so I feel like I cut you off earlier.
Were you gonna say somethingthat you didn't just say?
Jessica (33:11):
uh, that he still talks in riddles, but at least this
time aragorn called him out onit yeah, yeah, he's like man,
just give it to me plain, likewhat?
Kritter (33:23):
Yeah, and then of course, his excuses.
Oh, I was actually just talkingto myself, like okay, Gandalf,
whatever much he thought he knewand learn much that he'd
(33:45):
forgotten that he can see manythings far off but cannot see
many things close at hand.
What do you make of this?
Jessica (33:50):
I make of this a mystical version of coming back
from the dead, where you haveliterally passed through to a
new life and you are more tunedinto the big picture than you
are to your immediate past,right so, first off.
I loved the story of him andthe balrog in like locked in
(34:14):
dread battle and they wind upgoing underwater and he turns
into like a slimy snake or yeah,whatever it winds up being.
And then he still ascends backall the way up through the mines
of Moria through the endlessstair.
I think it's called like thewhole resurrection story was
incredibly moving, like verygripping, and did a great job,
(34:42):
so I I kind of liked thatactually Peter Jackson did that
when Saruman took possession.
This is the movies when Sarumantook possession, held rather
Gandalf hostage up on theHeights and he gets rescued from
there.
And all he's he does it as thebriefest of flashbacks and he's
like I was delayed and so I kindof did that.
(35:07):
In my mind is that he wastrying to tell them.
You know it was a fight and Idon't really want to get into it
, but in his mind he was havinga flashback to this ridiculous,
you know, epic cage match thathe was having with this force of
nature essentially.
So I thought that that was verycool and was just additional
(35:30):
context.
I totally lost my oh.
So, going back to, I think thathe got really close to the
source whatever you consider thesource to be and so again, he
was kind of tuned into somemaster plans and, and it's just
kind of, his perspective hasjust shifted enough that now
(35:52):
he's more focused on the bigpicture and a little less
focused on just the role thatthe hobbits and the ring play
yeah, yeah, I love that.
Kritter (36:04):
It says he was sent back naked for a brief time
until his task was done.
So it's so obviously.
Well, obviously, it was to me.
It's like so obviously.
Whoever his creator is, orwhatever, the b, the higher
power with the capital p,presumably, uh, it sent him back
(36:27):
like deliberately.
So I thought that was reallycool.
I thought it was interesting tofind out that the reason the
shadow passed without Frodo andthe ring being revealed to
Sauron, I, we, I assume, whileFrodo was sitting up at the high
seat, like, like on the top ofthe mountain, was because
Gandalf was striving againstSauron, like from a distance.
You remember, whenever it'slike the thing is coming at
(36:48):
Frodo and we, like, I guess,assumed Frodo decided that he
wasn't going to let Sauron seehim.
It's like either no, or becauseGandalf said he had to.
Really, if, like, if Frodo hadmade the other decision, Gandalf
wouldn't have been able toprevent it.
Right, it was like a combowobble of like Gandalf trying to
(37:10):
protect and Frodo making theright call, but either I love to
get that behind the scenes infolike the no, I love it.
Jessica (37:18):
So that was my second big bullet was the resurrection
story.
Additional context was awesome.
And the additional insight intoSaruman, so things like that.
You know when he is gripped inthis epic mental power battle,
but also why isn't Sarumanlooking for him and why hasn't
(37:41):
Sauron found them yet?
And all of that behind thescenes stuff, and also bringing
up the fact that Saruman islikely in a place where he's
looking to double cross Sauron.
So setting all of that up, allof that context again.
So this part of this chapterwas hard for me, cause I'm like,
(38:01):
was this all super obvious?
And I am just an idiot.
It did not get that from themovie, but it genuinely never
occurred to me that Sarumanwould be making a play for the
ring for himself.
Never occurred to me.
And then I'm reading throughthis and I'm like, well, clearly
that all makes perfect sense.
Kritter (38:23):
Yeah, that makes it.
I definitely don't think theyemphasized it in the movies.
Um, okay, you know they had theUruk-hai, Saruman's creations,
but it did make it seem like, ifI'm remembering right like
Saruman at all times felt verymuch like a, like an agent of
Sauron right, he's got thePalantir.
Well, I don't want to talk toomuch about the Deeths from later
(38:44):
, even though you've seen them,but yeah, in the movies I think
it was very much more like he'skind of acting on behalf of
Sauron, not against him, because, yeah, like that that.
Jessica (38:56):
Gandalf has a lot of insight.
There's just some real nuance.
Kritter (39:02):
There's a lot of nuance there, and how he went through
it just systematically was like,of course his gaze was drawn to
Minas Tirith and this, that andthe other thing, and I'm
reading it through going yeah,no, that totally tracks, but I
feel like I didn't watch thismovie I don't think I don't
think we watched the same movie,you guys yeah, yeah, it was
cool though because, likeGandalf, also points out that um
, along with Saruman, kind ofgoing towards his own gain, if
(39:25):
he can, Sauron's ultimatestrategy right, which is, like
Sauron is constantly wonderingwhere the ring is and how it's
going to be used against him,not ever whether it's going to
be used against him, right.
He's never considering thatsomeone would want to destroy
the ring rather than wield it,because he can't relate to that.
Jessica (39:50):
He can't imagine a world in which he would not want
that tool.
Kritter (39:54):
Right, which is so fascinating, and that is why
he's extending his reach awayfrom Mordor, which is exactly
what the hobbits need to get inthere, sneak on in there.
So, yeah, the fact that Gandalfhas all of this inside
information, presumablypartially because he's getting
(40:15):
reports from Gwaihir theWindlord, but also because he's
got this higher level view ofeverything now that he's been
beyond and come back.
Jessica (40:25):
Elevated in some way.
Kritter (40:26):
Very helpful for the good guys for sure, yeah, okay,
so he also talks about becauseall of his insights he's got
insight into where the hobbitsare right.
He didn't know that Sam wentwith Frodo.
When he found that out, he waswas really happy, which made me
really happy.
Yes, but he knew about Merryand Pippin and I flagged a
(40:48):
little literary umami for this.
Their coming was like thefalling of small stones that
starts an avalanche in themountains.
Even as we talk here, I hearthe first rumblings.
It's just like I know it's notlike the most flowery language,
but I am a sucker for like asimile or like a metaphor.
You know what I mean.
Like the falling of smallstones that starts an avalanche
(41:10):
was just like yeah, that'sexactly what happened.
Jessica (41:12):
They show up and I think, and it's so penal, it's
so like vintage Hobbit right.
Like vintage hobbit right.
It's very small actions of goodpeople that changed the world,
and and so just another way torepresent that.
I think that it's beautiful.
Kritter (41:29):
It was really lovely.
Um, and a perfect way to phraseit, so okay, so this also got
my attention.
Gandalf says that tree beard isthe oldest living thing that
walks beneath the sun on MiddleEarth.
Did you immediately think whatI thought when I read this?
Jessica (41:50):
I thought are you sure it's not, tom yeah?
Kritter (41:53):
that's exactly.
I was like I'm sorry Tom's nameby some people is eldest.
How does that?
Jessica (42:02):
not make it the oldest.
Maybe Tom doesn't count becausehe died and came back.
Kritter (42:08):
Yeah yeah.
My thought was Tom doesn'tcount because he's like an
otherworldly godlike, being nota living thing.
Jessica (42:20):
that's what I thought oh my god is tom Hoid no,
cosmere spoilers, but nospoilers.
But like we want to talk aboutyou know, I never even
considered that we could docrazy loony theories on tom as a
world hopper, and where couldwe take that?
Kritter (42:39):
yeah, he's.
Maybe he is fun fact.
Yeah, uh, lord of the rings ispart of the cosmere who knew um,
oh my god that was.
Jessica (42:48):
That was my explanation , was I guess tom isn't a living
thing, he's something else Imean that's a thin thread, but
I'll give it to you because hedid pass and then return yeah,
did he I feel like, yes, now Ihave to go back and check well
now I'm like, wasn't that ourhead canon for?
(43:10):
Because I was like are theyBeren and Luthien?
Kritter (43:13):
Yeah, so like if he's not Beren and Luthien, there
wasn't another instance where hepassed.
Jessica (43:20):
Right no.
Kritter (43:21):
Okay, right, so no Right.
Jessica (43:25):
I was like, if we're saying that Tom.
Yeah, I'm saying, if Tom is,you know somebody who passed and
came back, does that make themBeren and Luthien reincarnated?
Kritter (43:37):
I see, I see, okay.
Well, that would be anotherexplanation if we subscribe to
that head.
Um, okay, so Aragorn reappointsGandalf as their leader.
You know, to the extent he hadthe authority to do that.
Um, noting, the dark lord hasnine.
But we have one mightier thanthey the White Rider.
(43:58):
He has passed through the fireand the abyss and they shall
fear him.
We will go where he leads.
So I don't know about you.
There's something about a manwho has every right to assume
that he's in charge, who isready and willing to follow and
support someone more qualified,like regardless of pedigree,
like do you, do you agree?
yeah, a thousand percent, likeugh Aragorn and also Aragorn,
(44:21):
just delivering in spades onsome great language, chapter
after chapter yeah, he's like,he's really, um, he's evolved,
like from when we first met himas Strider right.
He's evolved from when we firstmet him as Strider right.
He just keeps getting I don'tknow more attractive and more
noble.
Yeah, and it's good for him.
Jessica (44:44):
I did like that Gandalf counseled Aragorn and basically
told him don't keep beatingyourself up over these decisions
.
You did the best you had withthe information you had
available to you at the time.
So I did like that Gandalf uhyou know tried to give him that
uh relief yeah, he's a good.
Kritter (45:05):
He's a good guy, he's a good.
Gandalf's a good dude.
Yeah, who knew um.
So we talked about the fight,right, Legolas wanted Gandalf to
recount what all happened tohim and it was a doozy, and he
like I have to read this hethrew down his enemy and he fell
from the high place and brokethe mountainside where he smote
(45:28):
it in his ruin.
And then we talked about howdarkness took him.
He got sent back, whatever.
As he's laying there just likeletting time and space pass him
by, Gwaihir, the Windlord, showsup and takes him to Lothlorien,
because Galadriel was actuallythe one who sent Gwaihir for him
, which harkens back to theFellowship, where they're like
(45:51):
he's dead, like sorry to hearthat he's dead.
She totally didn't believe itat any moment.
And so, yeah, all of that theLothlorien thing, how did you
feel about that?
Jessica (46:05):
I did remember our moment in the fellowship where
she refused to use the word dead.
But also, how does she know,maybe she's just power with a
capital p.
She is a power.
As far as I'm concerned, she'sa power, um.
So I thought that that was, andI did like the fact that
(46:26):
Gwaihir got a little cheeky.
He was like you know, take meto Lothlorien at once and Gwai
hir is like on it.
Bro, I already got my orders,thank you.
Kritter (46:35):
To the extent I follow orders like.
I follow the orders I want tofollow and and the orders I got
were from Galadriel.
Thank you.
Jessica (46:41):
Yeah, so I thought that that was a funny little again.
Kritter (46:45):
Just little cheeky moments they get they're fun
Little bits of sass and thenthat they each had a message
from Galadriel, although theywere not necessarily fun
messages, yeah, I wrote, so I'vegot them kind of like
summarized to Aragorn about thereturn of the Dunedain, noting
that the dead watch the roadthat leads to the sea, to
(47:08):
Legolas to avoid the sea, and toGimli, naming him Lockbearer.
She said her thoughts with him,but that he should have a care
to lay his axe to the right tree.
So now try to put yourself inthe shoes of someone who has not
seen the movies.
I know it's hard because youhave to the extent you can.
What would you have made of allof this had you not seen the
(47:29):
movies?
Jessica (47:31):
I would avoid coastline yeah, yeah, it all sounds kind
of bleak yeah, like I think weshould avoid anything that
starts or sounds like seaabsolutely, and with Gimli I'm
like okay, so it's what she is.
Kritter (47:47):
Like it's like the wrong tree is he?
Is he already know that, though, because they're in Fangorn I
don't know, like was know.
Jessica (47:54):
How do you know which tree is the right tree?
Kritter (47:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a little cryptic,but that's par for the course.
I guess with the Galadriel andall the powers that we know of,
it can be pretty cryptic.
Okay, so the group of fourresolve to head to Rohan, and
Gandalf summons Shadowfax.
So you're the horse girl inthis equation.
(48:18):
Did his description do anythingfor you?
Jessica (48:21):
Absolutely.
Did you ever, you know, do astint with the romance covers
that had, you know, like longflowing Fabio hair my
mother-in-law and usually theyweren't shirts, um, so I feel
like that was the Fabio versionof an intro Shadowfax, like it
(48:45):
was majestic as can be, um, andI thought that it was lovely.
Uh, I, I already love the kingof horses, obviously um so yeah,
and he brought, you know, theirmounts back with them, which of
course was very validating forme that I was 100 correct.
Kritter (49:09):
So true Shadowfax, calling it now you did it, you
called it um.
So as the group travels theynotice smoke in the direction of
Isengard.
I assume I had to reread thepassages to make sure there was
smoke, I think in the directionof Isengard yeah, I think so too
, so at least that's how I tookit that's how I took it.
(49:29):
Uh, so Legolas asks what it isand Gandalf responds battle and
war.
Jessica (49:36):
And that is the end of the chapter.
And I just wrote that I thoughtthat was an epic ending, I
thought that that was a great.
You know, sometimes, sometimesthere are really strong sign
offs.
I think this was right up therewith you know, here lies Balin.
You know, like it was just areally strong, I know.
(49:58):
All right, you were the bestestum I just thought that it was a
really great chapter end yeah,I agree.
Kritter (50:06):
Um, all right, so we've got a tradition where we pick
an mvp from the chapters we'veread for each episode.
Cue the music, Jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (50:23):
I have to go with Treebeard.
He is just 110% awesome.
He is legend.
He is so old and so wise and heempowers all of his remaining
people to, you know, puts outthis call to arms to them to
(50:44):
fight the evil that lives nextdoor.
I cannot, I couldn't, give itto anybody but Treebeard this
time.
Kritter (50:52):
Yeah, I, um.
So I will say that I consideredGandalf for this.
I couldn't give it to anybodybut Treebeard this time.
Yeah, so I will say that Iconsidered Gandalf for this
because the story was so epic.
But I rationalized by he wasactually just telling us about
things that have happened in thepast and he already won MVP for
me for his fight with the theBalrog back in the fellowship.
(51:15):
I, you know, I didn't get fullthe full deets, but I gave him
his props.
Um, so I completely agree.
Like, whenever I thought aboutthese two chapters, I didn't
even I mean, like Gandalf was,like he's an honorable mention,
but treebeard is, hands down,the winner.
Like he, he saw what washappening, he called the Ent
Moot, he educated Merry andPippin on the situation and he
(51:37):
orchestrated the Ent's march towar and, as we mentioned, like
he, as far as we know, is thefirst being to declare open war
in this conflict.
Jessica (51:48):
Which just makes it all the more the correct choice,
you know.
Kritter (51:52):
Yeah, exactly Like, if he, this deliberate thinker, is
going to do it, then it'sobviously the correct choice.
Yeah, exactly, if he, thisdeliberate thinker, is going to
do it, then it's obviously theright move.
And it was just epic, thedecision that was made.
You felt the swelling of thepower within the forest coming
down towards Isengard, so it'stribute for me as well.
Look at us.
Last week we had the same one.
(52:13):
Twinning, we're twinning.
If you are listening and youwant to weigh in on who your MVP
is from this episode, I thinkthere are a couple that are
fully justifiable in thisinstance, then let us know in
the comments on YouTube or ifyou're on our Discord or on our
social media.
We're really curious to see ifyou agree with us, because even
(52:35):
though we're twinning, itdoesn't mean that we're right.
Just right, we.
I'd like to think it does, butit doesn't technically.
Um, okay, so that's it, I guess.
Uh, next week for next episode,we will be reading chapters six
and seven.
It's a little bit of a shorterread, um, which you know what
(52:56):
after the after the tree beardchapter, I think we've earned.
It's okay.
So thank you so much for tuninginto episode two of season three
of.
But are there dragons broughtto you by your hosts, Jessica
Sedai and me, Kritter xd?
Don't forget to follow us atBut Are There Dragons on YouTube
, Instagram and TikTok andButDragonsPod just one T on X.
(53:17):
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as KritterXD and
Shelf Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're workshopping newcatchphrases for Season 3, so
let us know on social media howyou feel about this.
One Few can foresee whethertheir road will lead them till
they come to a let's end.
And this is our end until nextweek bye.
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons?
A podcast where two friendspick a book at least one of them
has not read and work their waythrough it a few chapters at a
time.
I'm your host, Kritter, and I'myour host Jess.
Kritter (00:18):
And we're continuing this adventure with the Two
Towers by JRR Tolkien, with meas the resident Lord of the
Rings veteran.
Jessica (00:25):
And me as the Tolkien first-timer.
Kritter (00:28):
In this, our second episode of Season 3, we're going
to discuss Book 3, Chapters 4and 5.
Before we dive in, Jessica,what's new with you?
How are you feeling?
Jessica (00:41):
I am feeling good.
It's really good to be back inhobbit land uh, excuse me, in
tolkien land, um I misspoke, uh,but we do spend some time with
the hobbits and that's why theywere the uppermost on my mind.
Um, on a personal note, gotsome really good news today
closed on a brand new house, soyou know all the things.
Super, super excited, excited.
Kritter (01:02):
Really good day, Overall Excellent day.
Lots of reading for the episodeand then, you know, closing on
a house casually, super casualno big yeah, nothing, big yeah,
nothing.
Big over here.
Really, I think it's stormingor about to, so we'll see what
happens with this recording, butit'll be fine, it's going to be
(01:24):
fine.
I'm not worried about it at all.
I think it's going to be great,and this weekend, just you know
, a fun little thing about me ismy dad got my mom a massage for
Christmas and she was going to,like, come up to my area to go
to the spa and I was going to,just like you know, fall on the
sword and join her, I guess.
And so that's this weekend, soI'm going to have a spa day on
(01:46):
Saturday.
Jessica (01:47):
Such a good daughter.
Kritter (01:49):
I know, I know I don't know what they would do without
me.
I'm just so I sacrifice so muchfor them.
But anyways, looking forward tothat, nice, yeah, okay.
So shall we get started on theactual book?
The reason we're here, yeah,okay.
(02:13):
Oh, that thing.
Yeah, yeah, that old thing, allright.
So book three, chapter fourtree beard.
So in this chapter, Merry andPippin stumble upon tree beard,
aka Fangorn, the eldest of theents, the shepherds of the trees
.
The ents have been around for avery, very long time and had
never heard of hobbits.
In fact, hobbits didn't have aplace on their very long
established list of livingcreatures.
Did you find this interestingor surprising?
Jessica (02:37):
I did.
I love the fact that they, inorder to try and keep straight
how many creatures they are,they decided to write a song
about it.
I thought that that wasprecious, um and I.
There's so much to love abouttree beard.
His vibe, from the verybeginning, is I am prepared to
dislike you, but I'll try not tobe hasty, which puts me in mind
(02:59):
of a certain other creature.
So you know, I, I, I really Iloved everything about Treebeard
and everything we learned aboutEnts here Absolutely surpassed
what I got from the movies,which was fantastic and it was
just very cool and veryendearing.
Kritter (03:20):
Yeah, I really liked well.
First of all, the list reallyreminded me of like.
Did you have the growing up,maybe like a children's book or
like flashcards that are like Ais for antelope, b is for
buffalo, c is for cheetah?
Did you have like that?
You know where it's likeanimals and letters.
That's kind of I don't know why, but like whenever he was doing
(03:42):
the little rhyme about all thecreatures, it just reminded me
of that.
It's like there's no H's forhobbit.
That's so sad.
But then they ultimatelydecided to add the hobbits,
which I think was great.
Yes, yes, so that's good and inwhich the hobbits lived.
(04:07):
Treebeard inquired aboutwhether the hobbits had seen or
heard of the Entwives who hadbeen lost long ago.
Did any part of this storybecause it was pretty long pique
your interest?
Jessica (04:16):
Absolutely so I think that my big takeaway is that the
story about the Entwives ispretty sad.
I thought it was a really kindof a sad story.
And then you know that theEntwives had different tastes
and that they liked certainthings and that it was
ultimately a compliment to theShire that he thought that the
(04:36):
Entwives would enjoy it there.
But there was a highlight that Imade there where he said a
little literary umami, if youwill, our hearts did not go on
growing in the same way when hetalks about the separation of
the ents and the ent wives, andI just thought it was really sad
.
Um, you know, and he later inthe chapter talks about how he
(05:00):
wishes to actually see his uhone more time.
Kritter (05:05):
I'm not going to try to pronounce her name, it was
terrible uh-huh, it was sad, itwas really sad, um, and I gather
that the entwives basicallyinvented agriculture.
Is that what?
Jessica (05:18):
like, is that?
Kritter (05:18):
that's what I got from it, that's what it sounded like
to me, which is that was kind ofcool.
Jessica (05:23):
Um, you know, I feel like the Entwives probably
fostered the Shire you know.
So after he explains why hethought they might like the
place, I'm like.
Oh, Hobbit cozy is totallytheir vibe.
Are we sure there wasn't afounding Entwife?
Kritter (05:41):
Yeah, did they, like, invent it or something?
Um, maybe, um, so, speaking ofyou know, maybe they invented
the Shire.
What do you think?
Do you have any personalheadcanons about what happened
to the Entwives, because it'ssuch a mystery at this point?
Jessica (05:59):
So I think, kind of like how Treebeard was implying
that some Ents became moretree-like and essentially
reverted to being essentiallyregular trees- that maybe
something, some kind of entropy,took over for the entwives and
maybe they became little appleorchards or cornfields or wild
(06:24):
grain or you know like.
Maybe they got so connected toa place that they also kind of
stopped venturing out.
Wow, okay so to me is headcanon , for I don't want to
think about anybody doinganything bad to ent wives, so I
like my story better.
Kritter (06:45):
Right, because in the book itself they were like so
this terrible thing happened Ican't remember if they had a
name for it, but it was justlike the reckoning this
devastating thing that happenedto the land that the Entwives
lived in, you know the.
Brownlands, yeah, the Brownlands, and during the war against
Sauron, he just, he justobliterated it, yeah, and the
(07:08):
question was was that their endor did they move on right?
Because, uh, tree beard hadheard tales that maybe they
headed one way or the other wayor the other way, um, and no one
had known, and they hadsearched and searched and not
found them.
What, what?
Jessica (07:24):
What if Goldberry was an ent wife?
Kritter (07:28):
What if?
Jessica (07:30):
She was very connected to the land that they were in.
Kritter (07:35):
Sorry, no, I mean Goldberry is like.
We always circle back to herlike, ooh, what if this was her,
her and Tom.
Jessica (07:45):
I really like the river sprite or river goddess,
because it really seems to fither narrative to a t?
Um, but she's just so connectedto the land that I was like
maybe you know, we don't knowmaybe.
Kritter (07:58):
Um, I know one theory is that they like how sam
mentioned in, I think, chapterone or one of the first chapters
, that, uh, some his cousin orsomething had seen trees walking
, remember?
Yes, that is the.
That's what I am latching on toas the.
That's where they are.
Like I want them to be near theshire.
(08:20):
Um, I mean, I do too.
That's like the only evidence Ihave in support of it, other
than the fact that the Entsthink that they would like the
Shire also.
But I would rather that thanthe sad ending.
But I also saw when I wasGoogling around somebody had the
theory and I don't subscribe tothis theory, but I think it's
(08:40):
fun that the Entwives evolved,or devolvedolved, whatever you
want probably evolved intohobbits.
How do you feel about thattheory?
Jessica (08:55):
I think that's too small for them.
Honestly, I think that they'relike abstract beings about.
I look at tree beard and Ithink of appear to tree beard
and I am like not to belittle myhalfling friends because we
know I love them, but they arebeings with a capital b yeah,
(09:17):
the hobbits are.
Kritter (09:18):
I also like I want to say it's pretty well established
.
The hobbits are like human,humanesque, right, and that's
not the vibe that I get from theEnts right there.
Not at all.
They're pre-troll beings of theearth.
Basically, I don't subscribe tothat.
It is a fun one though.
It's a fun little theory that Iwouldn't have thought of myself
(09:39):
for sure, although themcultivating the Shire, that is
something I like, which kind ofgoes along with the thing that I
like, which is that that'swhere they live now, or
somewhere near there at least,because I don't want them to die
.
Jessica (09:51):
I want, I want, a happy ending with that well in the
shire, generally speaking, isjust a safer place to be right
like it's relatively untouchedand pristine still, so it seems
as safe a place as any agreed.
Kritter (10:06):
Um, okay, so we meet treebeard, we talk about the
hobbits, we talk about the Entwives.
It's a long chapter, buteventually treebeard called an
Ent moot ent moot, havingnoticed that Saruman was
becoming a real problem.
While it was ongoing, Merry andPippin spent some time with
another Ent, Bregalad, whoexplained to them that the orcs
(10:29):
had been cutting trees down forno reason.
The Entmoot concluded with theEnts deciding to march against
Saruman to war.
Now this went down verydifferently in the movies.
If you remember, you might notDid you enjoy how it played out
in the book.
Jessica (10:43):
I did.
I thought that it was much morecontext.
So first off, that they met adifferent Ent in person and got
a name, and that that Ent hadyou know, his homeland had been
ravaged by the orcs and theprogression of the Ent moot.
Also, I don't know that themovie necessarily had time for
(11:07):
it, so it's really not shadeagainst how peter jackson chose
to do it, but there was a realprogression because, as you
mentioned, it was kind of alonger chapter.
Um, there was a realprogression from when we first
encountered treebeard, uh, tohis call to arms and talking
about the treachery of aneighbor in regards to Saruman
and how he used to come to theforest, but not anymore.
(11:30):
And you know, there was a realprogression through the course
of the chapter which wasactually kind of well, um, woven
through.
It wasn't overly, um, in yourface, uh.
So I thought that it kind ofjust flowed subtly in the
background, kind of like Ent'sspeak, you know.
(11:53):
So I thought that that was kindof neat because you know, when
he first met them, you know hewas just saying that there's
something amiss and then he isessentially fomenting rebellion
and calling his peers to arms tohold Saruman accountable for
the actions of himself and hisorcs.
It's a pretty big transition.
Kritter (12:16):
It was, and I'm not going to lie, I'm going to be
completely transparent and Iwant to say I admitted this like
the first time I read the booksI remember thinking the Tom
Bombadil chapters were like dumbright.
And this time around I did notfeel that way at all.
I was like fascinated by all ofit.
So this time around, I can'tremember how I felt the first
(12:39):
time whenever I read this, but Idid find myself kind of like
like looking at how much timewas left in the chapter and I
feel so bad about that, but likeit did feel very long to me.
And part of me wonders if it'sone because of Andy Serkis'
performance, because he did theEnt thing, which is right, and I
(13:01):
had it sped up to.
I always have it sped up to 1.3because I can't handle normal
narrator speed.
It's just too slow for me.
Even at 1.3 it was like reallyslow.
So I wonder if that hadsomething to do with it.
I didn't speed it up anyfurther than 1.3 and I also
wonder if that was a deliberatemove on Tolkien's part to kind
(13:24):
of put us in the Ent mindsetright.
Yeah, we're not gonna rushthrough this chapter, we're not
gonna be hasty, I'm gonna takeyou on the journey that
treebeard went on to go fromthere's something a little off
to we're declaring open war asthe first group of people to
declare open war so far in thisseries, right.
Jessica (13:47):
Like yeah, and that's definitely significant.
It is.
Yeah, it's really Nature itself.
Nature itself is declaring waron Saruman.
Kritter (13:56):
Yes, and because of his cruelty, because it, like what
he's doing, is a direct attackon life and you know, the earth
or the middle earth and uh, andso, even though I did feel like
it was long in the moment, thechapter after the chapter, I was
like dang, like that was reallygood, like you got a lot out of
(14:17):
that one, and so I will say Ialso was like dang, how much
biscuit, how much longer is thischapter?
Jessica (14:23):
so so I you know, as you know, we make our outline
and I'm like, oh cool, it's abreezy.
Two chapters, no problem, I'llget through it.
And by the time we're gettingintroduced to the second and
quick beam.
I'm like oh, we're still going.
Kritter (14:40):
Oh, the answer Okay.
Jessica (14:44):
Continues.
Kritter (14:45):
oh, the answer still continues so I wasn't
necessarily anxious for it toget over, but it was a thick
chapter compared to what I wasexpecting, because I was like oh
, we meet tree beard and I thinkI was just kind of a little
dismissive of that and, yeah, Ifeel like the chapter showed me
otherwise I do feel like thewriting that, since the parties
(15:07):
have broken up and we stillhaven't met frodo and sam yet,
this, this book or whatever, um,the, it's interesting how we
kind of leap ahead in likepretty big strides, right, it's
like, okay, you know, we'restarting with meeting treebeard
at the beginning of this chapterand by the end of the chapter
they're at the steps of Isengard, like you know, like that's,
(15:32):
that's a big, like change.
You know, we're not messingaround, we're, whenever we get
to a Marion Pippin POV, by golly, we're going to make some
strides, is this?
what he's doing.
So it's, uh, it's.
It's been interesting for sure,Um the pacing and everything
having to follow multiple POVs.
Finally, because, like in theHobbit.
Jessica (15:52):
That was one of the things that that was one of the
things that jumped out to mewhen we switched gears to
chapter five was oh so there aretwo.
Kritter (15:59):
There's still two full days behind them, so to your
point, the kind of theleapfrogging of the timeline
seeing where we're at, uh, withthe with the separate parties is
very interesting yeah, becausein some books like I want to
like the wheel of time, forexample no spoilers at all, but
it's like if there's somethinghappening, you will get, like
(16:20):
you know, one character that'sexperiencing it and then, like,
immediately following, that willbe the next character who's
like picking up right where thatleft off in time.
Essentially that happens a lot,and so it's just like you're
literally like you know,everything is happening in rapid
succession within the confinesof a chapter too, like you
switch POVs mid chapter.
(16:41):
This is very much like block.
This is Merry and Pippin's time.
We're gonna.
Jessica (16:46):
We're gonna make progress I do feel like they're
bigger blocks, so far.
Kritter (16:51):
Yeah, big chunks, like I'm.
When I was looking at thechapter titles when we were
working on like our overall whatwe're gonna read outline, I was
just like, oh my gosh, likesome of these chapters are like
that's just a chapter, like thatone thing like I would think
some that title would bemultiple chapters, but no, it's
just one.
Jessica (17:10):
So, yeah, that's the fun part, folks, of letting the
first time readers set apreliminary outline and then the
vet will review it and go hey,wait a minute.
Based on some things I'm notgoing to clarify for you, I
would like to revise thatoutline.
Kritter (17:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think today in a DM I was like
this is a big boy read so weshortened it.
So anyways, we're getting alittle far afield.
But you did mention that natureitself is rising up against
Saruman, which I think I alsoclocked, the symbolism of it all
(17:50):
, and I remember in the Hobbitand maybe even in Fellowship of
the Ring, we noted that Tolkienhas I know he doesn't like
allegory, but he's got a clearenvironmentalist tilt Slant,
slant, yeah, okay, so it's notjust well.
Well, I know it's not just me,because you talked about it
before.
(18:11):
I think it reared its headagain here.
Jessica (18:12):
So there were a couple.
I have the receipts, would youlike?
Kritter (18:14):
to hear that I would love the receipts okay.
Jessica (18:17):
So first off is uh, you know, when treebeard and Merry
and Pippin are talking beforethey even get to treebeard's
house which, by the way,treebeard's house is a thing I
would have liked to have seenSomebody please create a
Treebeard's house for me, please, and thank you.
But anyways, they were chattingand Treebeard gets asked if he
(18:40):
knows of Gandalf and he said,yes, he's the only wizard that
really cares about trees, and Ithought that that was, again
precious.
And then he was talking aboutthe treachery of the neighbor.
He was talking about the orcsthat Saruman had created and how
(19:03):
he felt that they were tainted.
I can't use tainted in thiscontext.
They were, you know, an evilblend, potentially, of men and
orc, because they were able towithstand the sunlight, and so
it is a mark of evil things thatthey cannot abide the sun, but
Saruman's orcs can, and so hehypothesizes that perhaps
(19:27):
there's the blood of men in them, you know, and he just talks
over and over about that.
And again, the treachery of aneighbor.
So I it's not literary, umami,right, but it's just a
simplistic way to, to, tosuccinctly put it, and I thought
that it was brilliant.
And then the other thing istalking about trolls.
(19:48):
Being a mockeryorn slashTreebeard as a representative of
nature, saying this cannotstand and we must fight.
Kritter (20:12):
This is unnatural and evil and therefore we have to
rise against, rise against.
Um, I love whenever Tolkien'slike attitudes obviously align
with mine.
Who doesn't love that?
But also that like, even thoughhe didn't like allegory or
whatever, it still comes through.
Sometimes I'm like, yes, I lovethis about this.
This is great.
Um, oh, also, so there wassomething the the difference in
(20:37):
this from the movie that Ireally really liked was the ents
came to their own conclusionthat they were going to go to
war against Saruman after thelike at the Ent moot because in
the movie, if you'll recall,they the hobbits like tricked
them into going close enough toIsengard so that they would see
(21:00):
the destruction.
And I'm and you know, Ents areincredibly old.
You know presumably wise beingslike you don't need little
hobbits to to show you the wayright, and you've been living in
this forest so it makes sensethat you would know what's
happening with it.
Um, so I think, yeah, when itcomes to like which one do I
(21:20):
like better this one.
I think it makes more sense andit was a fun thing in the movie
where it's like oh, the closeryou are to danger, the farther
you are from harm.
Of course I like the hobbitsbeing like hobbity, but at the
same time, it didn't make asmuch sense as the ants coming to
their own conclusion, in myopinion.
Jessica (21:36):
I definitely like the autonomy play of them.
You know, having thewherewithal to say this is not
right and we must put an end toit.
I I also believe that.
Um, I did like that.
I did find what I believe is amovie quote, um, in there that
says we do not say anything init unless it is worth taking a
long time to say and Ihighlighted it because I was
(21:58):
like I'm pretty sure this madeit in there in some way- it did,
except for it sounded more likea long time to say.
I cannot talk on .65.
Kritter (22:18):
Yeah, it's tough, but I loved it.
I really like the Ent parts inthe movie because it's tough,
but that's I loved.
I really like the Ent parts inthe movie because it's just like
really Well, to use your word,precious right Because he's just
so lovable, even though theHobbits are like, oh my gosh,
let's go, let's move on.
Let's pick up the pace a littlebit, but he just doesn't.
(22:39):
He just doesn't pick up thepace until the time comes, and
then they're gonna take onSaruman until he gets heated.
Jessica (22:45):
Until he gets heated, he's heated.
Oh baby going back yeah, soeveryone's.
Kritter (22:52):
The ents are on the march, right, they go to war
singing songs, etc.
Um, but then eventually, youknow, as the as their pace
continuesbeard acknowledges that, with Saruman as an opponent,
the Ents may very well bemarching to their death, but he
resolves to march on anyway,noting that doing so may help
(23:14):
the other creatures inMiddle-earth and acknowledging
that Doom would find them anywayif they chose to stay home.
Would you call this bleak orrealistic?
Jessica (23:25):
I'm going to go with the pragmatic play, which I
actually love to see from a cast, a set of characters in a story
that could be quite removed andhave quite kind of a skewed
perspective.
Yeah, so I thought that thatwas relatively insightful, so I
that didn't bother me at all.
I was like, okay, so he is withit.
(23:47):
Enough.
I feel like I'm questioning thesanity of an entity and that's
not what I'm trying to say, butlike he's pretty dang old.
He's been around a really longtime, but he has you know, put
all of the context cluestogether and has a really good
sense of what's really goingdown.
Kritter (24:08):
Yeah, I feel like it's relatable, right?
Because you know, in real lifesometimes if I'm angry or
whatever, I'll get so worked upabout something and like put a
plan into action something, andlike put a plan into an action,
maybe I send an email or, likeyou know, do something out of
anger, say something, send atext message, whatever out of
anger, and then once thathappens, it's you like take a
(24:31):
breath and you're just like thismay not turn out the way that I
wanted it to, you know, and andit's just interesting how
obviously his thing was on amuch larger scale than something
like that, but it's justcompletely relatable in my
opinion.
You can't just ride the heatand the intensity and the
excitement and the adrenalineall through something Almost
(24:53):
without fail.
You're going to stop and pauseand be like oh God, okay, I
guess we're doing this.
So I liked that.
I like that about it, great,okay.
So, uh, as I said, it's a longchapter.
I tried to pull the highlightsout.
Was there anything else forthis chapter before we move on?
Did you, did you like thechapter?
Jessica (25:14):
I think we kind of talked about that yes, I did
like the chapter, so I thinkthat this is fun for me when I
find little nuggets.
They're not, they're not.
They don't change them either.
You know what I mean?
They don't change which way theship is heading in any way
whatsoever.
I clearly already like thestory, but these are little
(25:34):
treasure troves of informationthat I had no way of knowing.
And, again, they don't changethe bulk and breadth of the
story, which is why adaptationprobably chose to leave it
behind.
But it's extra context that, tome, makes the fabric of these
stories richer and makes meexcited to go back and re-watch
and, with you know, just thislittle bit more umph yeah, I
(25:59):
agree.
Yeah, it'll be fun going backand watching again um, I did
have one other thing from thischapter.
While um treebeard was talkingabout Saruman, he did say he is
plotting to become a powercapitalized.
Um, so I just thought thatagain that just stood out to me
(26:24):
that even somebody from afarwho's not having direct
interactions with him can seewhat he is up to and where he's
trying to go.
And it seemed very significantto me that it was capitalized.
Kritter (26:38):
A power.
Yeah, it would make you wonderwhat all in middle earth would
be classified as a power with acapital p.
You know, yeah, because ifsaruman wasn't yet as the head
of the white council, what iswhat?
What does you know?
Jessica (26:53):
saran, presumably he's still trying to elevate from
there and dear god.
What does that mean?
Kritter (26:58):
what does that mean exactly?
That's that mean Exactly?
That's a good point, okay, sothere being no further business
about chapter four, let's moveto book three, chapter five the
white writer.
So we're back with Aragorn,legolas and Gimli.
They examined the scene fromthe battle between the orcs and
the writers of Rohan and areencouraged to find some tracks
(27:20):
and the leftovers from thehobbits lembas snack.
So I loved how both Legolas andAragorn agreed that the fact
that they ate first thing beforeeven fleeing to safety was
pretty clear proof that thesewere hobbits they were dealing
with anything stand out to youfrom the sequence um, just that,
I love them.
Jessica (27:40):
And they were looking for footprints from the mystery
man that they spotted the nightbefore, and I love them.
And they were looking forfootprints from the mystery man
that they spotted the nightbefore and I was like, and this
is why these guys are thehunters, trackers and
professionals, cause it wouldn'teven occur to me to be looking
for footprints for thesuspicious man.
So, um, I I did love that theywere looking for it.
(28:01):
I did love the little kind ofthrowaway comment about the
Lembas bread, and then there wasa little bit of a quip in there
about trying hard to find them,because this is the part where
it says you know, they foundmarkings, but it's still two
days old and I think Gimli isgrousing and so, um, they're
(28:25):
talking about supplies runninglow and we can show our
friendship by starving together.
Kritter (28:30):
So I was like okay things are getting a little
tense a little.
It kind of reminds me of thehobbits in uh in murkwood.
A little bit right, becausethey're all just like they get
so grumbly and annoyed with eachother.
Okay, so I'm not.
So I'm not gonna lie.
Whenever I was reading thesequence, you know they're
inspecting the battle scene, allthat stuff.
(28:51):
Usually when I'm watching themovies I have the anecdote, the
everyone knows the anecdote.
Where did you know that?
You know Viggo Mortensen brokehis toe whenever he kicked the
helmet out of anger.
Oh my God, so exciting.
I didn't have anything likethat from the sequence, so I
just wanted to flag it that hadwe been watching the movie I
would have had a fun fact ready.
But I don't for this.
Jessica (29:11):
So did you know that our friend and former guest, don
Marshall, made merch about thatvery typical anecdote moment?
That seems to be veryquintessential Lord of the Rings
experience.
Kritter (29:26):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, he's got some really good
merch, yeah.
So I totally believe it.
I completely believe it.
So they track the hobbits intoFangorn Forest and eventually
find where the hobbitsencountered Treebeard, though
they have no idea what to makeof Treebeard's tracks, that's
when they see the creepy old man, or a creepy old man once again
(29:51):
.
Okay, so what was yourimmediate reaction?
Did you know who this was, orat least strongly suspect?
Jessica (29:58):
I really, really hoped that it was Gandalf.
I really really hoped that itwas Gandalf.
So there was a comment madeearlier by Legolas saying that
he heard the horses calling outas if to a friend, and so I had
highlighted it and added a noteand just Shadowfax calling it
(30:20):
now Uh-huh, yeah.
So I'm like I really hope, andI honestly have never heard the
term the white rider, so Inothing to the name of this
chapter.
It totally just blew right overmy head.
Um so I didn't think anything ofit.
Um and so when the when an oldman appeared again, I'm like,
please be Gandalf, please beGandalf, please be Gandalf.
(30:40):
And you know they, Tolkien dida good job making you wait until
the very end to be like, okay,no, legit it is, it's Gandalf.
Kritter (30:48):
Yeah, but we did find out that it wasn't Gandalf the
night before.
Jessica (30:54):
No, and that gave me goosebumps, that made all the
hair on the back of my neckstand up.
I did not like it.
Kritter (31:00):
No, ma'am I had forgotten.
I like when I saw him I waslike, oh, it's Gandalf, like
hello, like you know, he's gonnashow up, it's gonna be amazing,
completely forgot.
No, that wasn't Gandalf, thatwas Saruman.
We should have been freaked outand instead I was like easy
breezy, not a problem.
Um, creepy a little creepy.
Jessica (31:19):
yeah, I thought it was super creepy, but we did find
out that that's why we saw agiant eagle.
So that was, you know, kind ofjustifying that that's why we
saw a Gwaihir.
Kritter (31:29):
Mm-hmm.
Jessica (31:32):
And the other.
Sorry, go ahead.
Kritter (31:35):
I was just going to say you mentioned, like we did find
out ultimately that it wasGandalf, so I put his reveal.
It was so dramatic so they tryto attack him, but he commands
them not to and, as if by magic,they don't like.
Ghibli freezes, Legolas dropshis bow and is like surprised by
it.
They ask his name.
Of course he does not answer.
They see his white garments andaccuse him of being Saruman and
(31:57):
in the most flamboyant in mymind, in my mind's eye, way
possible leap and flourish,finally reveals himself to be
Gandalf.
So how do you feel about allthat?
Jessica (32:10):
So I do feel like there might have been like a little
bit of a glamour happening orwhatever, because even Aragorn,
you know, afterwards says myeyes, you know how could I not
see you?
Afterwards says my eyes, youknow how could I not see you?
Uh, so I do feel like there's alittle bit of mysticism around
that reveal for sure, um, butyeah, I thought it was, I
(32:32):
thought it was good.
I think that I feel like themovie version did it justice.
You know it was, it was enough.
Did it justice?
You know, yeah, it was, it wasenough.
Um, I think that what I likedabout it the most is the.
Even in the writing it's clearthat he's he's Gandalf and yet
not 100% Gandalf.
(32:53):
You know he's a little, it's alittle rusty or there's spots,
or you know he's like, oh,Gandalf, that sounds familiar
sure, yeah, that's totally right.
Kritter (33:04):
Um, okay, so I feel like I cut you off earlier.
Were you gonna say somethingthat you didn't just say?
Jessica (33:11):
uh, that he still talks in riddles, but at least this
time aragorn called him out onit yeah, yeah, he's like man,
just give it to me plain, likewhat?
Kritter (33:23):
Yeah, and then of course, his excuses.
Oh, I was actually just talkingto myself, like okay, Gandalf,
whatever much he thought he knewand learn much that he'd
(33:45):
forgotten that he can see manythings far off but cannot see
many things close at hand.
What do you make of this?
Jessica (33:50):
I make of this a mystical version of coming back
from the dead, where you haveliterally passed through to a
new life and you are more tunedinto the big picture than you
are to your immediate past,right so, first off.
I loved the story of him andthe balrog in like locked in
(34:14):
dread battle and they wind upgoing underwater and he turns
into like a slimy snake or yeah,whatever it winds up being.
And then he still ascends backall the way up through the mines
of Moria through the endlessstair.
I think it's called like thewhole resurrection story was
incredibly moving, like verygripping, and did a great job,
(34:42):
so I I kind of liked thatactually Peter Jackson did that
when Saruman took possession.
This is the movies when Sarumantook possession, held rather
Gandalf hostage up on theHeights and he gets rescued from
there.
And all he's he does it as thebriefest of flashbacks and he's
like I was delayed and so I kindof did that.
(35:07):
In my mind is that he wastrying to tell them.
You know it was a fight and Idon't really want to get into it
, but in his mind he was havinga flashback to this ridiculous,
you know, epic cage match thathe was having with this force of
nature essentially.
So I thought that that was verycool and was just additional
(35:30):
context.
I totally lost my oh.
So, going back to, I think thathe got really close to the
source whatever you consider thesource to be and so again, he
was kind of tuned into somemaster plans and, and it's just
kind of, his perspective hasjust shifted enough that now
(35:52):
he's more focused on the bigpicture and a little less
focused on just the role thatthe hobbits and the ring play
yeah, yeah, I love that.
Kritter (36:04):
It says he was sent back naked for a brief time
until his task was done.
So it's so obviously.
Well, obviously, it was to me.
It's like so obviously.
Whoever his creator is, orwhatever, the b, the higher
power with the capital p,presumably, uh, it sent him back
(36:27):
like deliberately.
So I thought that was reallycool.
I thought it was interesting tofind out that the reason the
shadow passed without Frodo andthe ring being revealed to
Sauron, I, we, I assume, whileFrodo was sitting up at the high
seat, like, like on the top ofthe mountain, was because
Gandalf was striving againstSauron, like from a distance.
You remember, whenever it'slike the thing is coming at
(36:48):
Frodo and we, like, I guess,assumed Frodo decided that he
wasn't going to let Sauron seehim.
It's like either no, or becauseGandalf said he had to.
Really, if, like, if Frodo hadmade the other decision, Gandalf
wouldn't have been able toprevent it.
Right, it was like a combowobble of like Gandalf trying to
(37:10):
protect and Frodo making theright call, but either I love to
get that behind the scenes infolike the no, I love it.
Jessica (37:18):
So that was my second big bullet was the resurrection
story.
Additional context was awesome.
And the additional insight intoSaruman, so things like that.
You know when he is gripped inthis epic mental power battle,
but also why isn't Sarumanlooking for him and why hasn't
(37:41):
Sauron found them yet?
And all of that behind thescenes stuff, and also bringing
up the fact that Saruman islikely in a place where he's
looking to double cross Sauron.
So setting all of that up, allof that context again.
So this part of this chapterwas hard for me, cause I'm like,
(38:01):
was this all super obvious?
And I am just an idiot.
It did not get that from themovie, but it genuinely never
occurred to me that Sarumanwould be making a play for the
ring for himself.
Never occurred to me.
And then I'm reading throughthis and I'm like, well, clearly
that all makes perfect sense.
Kritter (38:23):
Yeah, that makes it.
I definitely don't think theyemphasized it in the movies.
Um, okay, you know they had theUruk-hai, Saruman's creations,
but it did make it seem like, ifI'm remembering right like
Saruman at all times felt verymuch like a, like an agent of
Sauron right, he's got thePalantir.
Well, I don't want to talk toomuch about the Deeths from later
(38:44):
, even though you've seen them,but yeah, in the movies I think
it was very much more like he'skind of acting on behalf of
Sauron, not against him, because, yeah, like that that.
Jessica (38:56):
Gandalf has a lot of insight.
There's just some real nuance.
Kritter (39:02):
There's a lot of nuance there, and how he went through
it just systematically was like,of course his gaze was drawn to
Minas Tirith and this, that andthe other thing, and I'm
reading it through going yeah,no, that totally tracks, but I
feel like I didn't watch thismovie I don't think I don't
think we watched the same movie,you guys yeah, yeah, it was
cool though because, likeGandalf, also points out that um
, along with Saruman, kind ofgoing towards his own gain, if
(39:25):
he can, Sauron's ultimatestrategy right, which is, like
Sauron is constantly wonderingwhere the ring is and how it's
going to be used against him,not ever whether it's going to
be used against him, right.
He's never considering thatsomeone would want to destroy
the ring rather than wield it,because he can't relate to that.
Jessica (39:50):
He can't imagine a world in which he would not want
that tool.
Kritter (39:54):
Right, which is so fascinating, and that is why
he's extending his reach awayfrom Mordor, which is exactly
what the hobbits need to get inthere, sneak on in there.
So, yeah, the fact that Gandalfhas all of this inside
information, presumablypartially because he's getting
(40:15):
reports from Gwaihir theWindlord, but also because he's
got this higher level view ofeverything now that he's been
beyond and come back.
Jessica (40:25):
Elevated in some way.
Kritter (40:26):
Very helpful for the good guys for sure, yeah, okay,
so he also talks about becauseall of his insights he's got
insight into where the hobbitsare right.
He didn't know that Sam wentwith Frodo.
When he found that out, he waswas really happy, which made me
really happy.
Yes, but he knew about Merryand Pippin and I flagged a
(40:48):
little literary umami for this.
Their coming was like thefalling of small stones that
starts an avalanche in themountains.
Even as we talk here, I hearthe first rumblings.
It's just like I know it's notlike the most flowery language,
but I am a sucker for like asimile or like a metaphor.
You know what I mean.
Like the falling of smallstones that starts an avalanche
(41:10):
was just like yeah, that'sexactly what happened.
Jessica (41:12):
They show up and I think, and it's so penal, it's
so like vintage Hobbit right.
Like vintage hobbit right.
It's very small actions of goodpeople that changed the world,
and and so just another way torepresent that.
I think that it's beautiful.
Kritter (41:29):
It was really lovely.
Um, and a perfect way to phraseit, so okay, so this also got
my attention.
Gandalf says that tree beard isthe oldest living thing that
walks beneath the sun on MiddleEarth.
Did you immediately think whatI thought when I read this?
Jessica (41:50):
I thought are you sure it's not, tom yeah?
Kritter (41:53):
that's exactly.
I was like I'm sorry Tom's nameby some people is eldest.
How does that?
Jessica (42:02):
not make it the oldest.
Maybe Tom doesn't count becausehe died and came back.
Kritter (42:08):
Yeah yeah.
My thought was Tom doesn'tcount because he's like an
otherworldly godlike, being nota living thing.
Jessica (42:20):
that's what I thought oh my god is tom Hoid no,
cosmere spoilers, but nospoilers.
But like we want to talk aboutyou know, I never even
considered that we could docrazy loony theories on tom as a
world hopper, and where couldwe take that?
Kritter (42:39):
yeah, he's.
Maybe he is fun fact.
Yeah, uh, lord of the rings ispart of the cosmere who knew um,
oh my god that was.
Jessica (42:48):
That was my explanation , was I guess tom isn't a living
thing, he's something else Imean that's a thin thread, but
I'll give it to you because hedid pass and then return yeah,
did he I feel like, yes, now Ihave to go back and check well
now I'm like, wasn't that ourhead canon for?
(43:10):
Because I was like are theyBeren and Luthien?
Kritter (43:13):
Yeah, so like if he's not Beren and Luthien, there
wasn't another instance where hepassed.
Jessica (43:20):
Right no.
Kritter (43:21):
Okay, right, so no Right.
Jessica (43:25):
I was like, if we're saying that Tom.
Yeah, I'm saying, if Tom is,you know somebody who passed and
came back, does that make themBeren and Luthien reincarnated?
Kritter (43:37):
I see, I see, okay.
Well, that would be anotherexplanation if we subscribe to
that head.
Um, okay, so Aragorn reappointsGandalf as their leader.
You know, to the extent he hadthe authority to do that.
Um, noting, the dark lord hasnine.
But we have one mightier thanthey the White Rider.
(43:58):
He has passed through the fireand the abyss and they shall
fear him.
We will go where he leads.
So I don't know about you.
There's something about a manwho has every right to assume
that he's in charge, who isready and willing to follow and
support someone more qualified,like regardless of pedigree,
like do you, do you agree?
yeah, a thousand percent, likeugh Aragorn and also Aragorn,
(44:21):
just delivering in spades onsome great language, chapter
after chapter yeah, he's like,he's really, um, he's evolved,
like from when we first met himas Strider right.
He's evolved from when we firstmet him as Strider right.
He just keeps getting I don'tknow more attractive and more
noble.
Yeah, and it's good for him.
Jessica (44:44):
I did like that Gandalf counseled Aragorn and basically
told him don't keep beatingyourself up over these decisions
.
You did the best you had withthe information you had
available to you at the time.
So I did like that Gandalf uhyou know tried to give him that
uh relief yeah, he's a good.
Kritter (45:05):
He's a good guy, he's a good.
Gandalf's a good dude.
Yeah, who knew um.
So we talked about the fight,right, Legolas wanted Gandalf to
recount what all happened tohim and it was a doozy, and he
like I have to read this hethrew down his enemy and he fell
from the high place and brokethe mountainside where he smote
(45:28):
it in his ruin.
And then we talked about howdarkness took him.
He got sent back, whatever.
As he's laying there just likeletting time and space pass him
by, Gwaihir, the Windlord, showsup and takes him to Lothlorien,
because Galadriel was actuallythe one who sent Gwaihir for him
, which harkens back to theFellowship, where they're like
(45:51):
he's dead, like sorry to hearthat he's dead.
She totally didn't believe itat any moment.
And so, yeah, all of that theLothlorien thing, how did you
feel about that?
Jessica (46:05):
I did remember our moment in the fellowship where
she refused to use the word dead.
But also, how does she know,maybe she's just power with a
capital p.
She is a power.
As far as I'm concerned, she'sa power, um.
So I thought that that was, andI did like the fact that
(46:26):
Gwaihir got a little cheeky.
He was like you know, take meto Lothlorien at once and Gwai
hir is like on it.
Bro, I already got my orders,thank you.
Kritter (46:35):
To the extent I follow orders like.
I follow the orders I want tofollow and and the orders I got
were from Galadriel.
Thank you.
Jessica (46:41):
Yeah, so I thought that that was a funny little again.
Kritter (46:45):
Just little cheeky moments they get they're fun
Little bits of sass and thenthat they each had a message
from Galadriel, although theywere not necessarily fun
messages, yeah, I wrote, so I'vegot them kind of like
summarized to Aragorn about thereturn of the Dunedain, noting
that the dead watch the roadthat leads to the sea, to
(47:08):
Legolas to avoid the sea, and toGimli, naming him Lockbearer.
She said her thoughts with him,but that he should have a care
to lay his axe to the right tree.
So now try to put yourself inthe shoes of someone who has not
seen the movies.
I know it's hard because youhave to the extent you can.
What would you have made of allof this had you not seen the
(47:29):
movies?
Jessica (47:31):
I would avoid coastline yeah, yeah, it all sounds kind
of bleak yeah, like I think weshould avoid anything that
starts or sounds like seaabsolutely, and with Gimli I'm
like okay, so it's what she is.
Kritter (47:47):
Like it's like the wrong tree is he?
Is he already know that, though, because they're in Fangorn I
don't know, like was know.
Jessica (47:54):
How do you know which tree is the right tree?
Kritter (47:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a little cryptic,but that's par for the course.
I guess with the Galadriel andall the powers that we know of,
it can be pretty cryptic.
Okay, so the group of fourresolve to head to Rohan, and
Gandalf summons Shadowfax.
So you're the horse girl inthis equation.
(48:18):
Did his description do anythingfor you?
Jessica (48:21):
Absolutely.
Did you ever, you know, do astint with the romance covers
that had, you know, like longflowing Fabio hair my
mother-in-law and usually theyweren't shirts, um, so I feel
like that was the Fabio versionof an intro Shadowfax, like it
(48:45):
was majestic as can be, um, andI thought that it was lovely.
Uh, I, I already love the kingof horses, obviously um so yeah,
and he brought, you know, theirmounts back with them, which of
course was very validating forme that I was 100 correct.
Kritter (49:09):
So true Shadowfax, calling it now you did it, you
called it um.
So as the group travels theynotice smoke in the direction of
Isengard.
I assume I had to reread thepassages to make sure there was
smoke, I think in the directionof Isengard yeah, I think so too
, so at least that's how I tookit that's how I took it.
(49:29):
Uh, so Legolas asks what it isand Gandalf responds battle and
war.
Jessica (49:36):
And that is the end of the chapter.
And I just wrote that I thoughtthat was an epic ending, I
thought that that was a great.
You know, sometimes, sometimesthere are really strong sign
offs.
I think this was right up therewith you know, here lies Balin.
You know, like it was just areally strong, I know.
(49:58):
All right, you were the bestestum I just thought that it was a
really great chapter end yeah,I agree.
Kritter (50:06):
Um, all right, so we've got a tradition where we pick
an mvp from the chapters we'veread for each episode.
Cue the music, Jessica.
Who would you name as your MVPthis episode?
Jessica (50:23):
I have to go with Treebeard.
He is just 110% awesome.
He is legend.
He is so old and so wise and heempowers all of his remaining
people to, you know, puts outthis call to arms to them to
(50:44):
fight the evil that lives nextdoor.
I cannot, I couldn't, give itto anybody but Treebeard this
time.
Kritter (50:52):
Yeah, I, um.
So I will say that I consideredGandalf for this.
I couldn't give it to anybodybut Treebeard this time.
Yeah, so I will say that Iconsidered Gandalf for this
because the story was so epic.
But I rationalized by he wasactually just telling us about
things that have happened in thepast and he already won MVP for
me for his fight with the theBalrog back in the fellowship.
(51:15):
I, you know, I didn't get fullthe full deets, but I gave him
his props.
Um, so I completely agree.
Like, whenever I thought aboutthese two chapters, I didn't
even I mean, like Gandalf was,like he's an honorable mention,
but treebeard is, hands down,the winner.
Like he, he saw what washappening, he called the Ent
Moot, he educated Merry andPippin on the situation and he
(51:37):
orchestrated the Ent's march towar and, as we mentioned, like
he, as far as we know, is thefirst being to declare open war
in this conflict.
Jessica (51:48):
Which just makes it all the more the correct choice,
you know.
Kritter (51:52):
Yeah, exactly Like, if he, this deliberate thinker, is
going to do it, then it'sobviously the correct choice.
Yeah, exactly, if he, thisdeliberate thinker, is going to
do it, then it's obviously theright move.
And it was just epic, thedecision that was made.
You felt the swelling of thepower within the forest coming
down towards Isengard, so it'stribute for me as well.
Look at us.
Last week we had the same one.
(52:13):
Twinning, we're twinning.
If you are listening and youwant to weigh in on who your MVP
is from this episode, I thinkthere are a couple that are
fully justifiable in thisinstance, then let us know in
the comments on YouTube or ifyou're on our Discord or on our
social media.
We're really curious to see ifyou agree with us, because even
(52:35):
though we're twinning, itdoesn't mean that we're right.
Just right, we.
I'd like to think it does, butit doesn't technically.
Um, okay, so that's it, I guess.
Uh, next week for next episode,we will be reading chapters six
and seven.
It's a little bit of a shorterread, um, which you know what
(52:56):
after the after the tree beardchapter, I think we've earned.
It's okay.
So thank you so much for tuninginto episode two of season three
of.
But are there dragons broughtto you by your hosts, Jessica
Sedai and me, Kritter xd?
Don't forget to follow us atBut Are There Dragons on YouTube
, Instagram and TikTok andButDragonsPod just one T on X.
(53:17):
You can also find your hosts onsocial media as KritterXD and
Shelf Indulgence.
That's it for today.
We're workshopping newcatchphrases for Season 3, so
let us know on social media howyou feel about this.
One Few can foresee whethertheir road will lead them till
they come to a let's end.
And this is our end until nextweek bye.
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