How Power, Access, and Status Shape Our Lives with Rosalind Chow

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
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Speaker 2 (00:16):
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and a member fdic ahio Everyone. This is BUMKAAKMPAM, the
bilingual podcasts Sin Sansura and Totally Unmuted Conversation with doctor

(02:38):
Russellin Chow. Russelling Chow is an associate professor of organizational
behavior and theory at Carnegie Mellon University. She studies the
power of social hierarchy and its impact on diversity and
inclusion efforts within organizations. Drawing on her scholarly expertise, Doctor

(02:59):
Russellin has worked t with or advised organizations on how
to use sponsorship to create more inclusive workspaces, including Google Workspace,
Amazon Web Services, Kaiser, Permanente, BI n Y, Melon, p
and C Bank, and Deloit. Her book The Doors you

(03:22):
Can Open a New way to network, build trust and
use your influence to create a more inclusive workplace has
been selected by Next Big Idea Clubs in April twenty
twenty five must read and I will concur with that
idea because it's so good and so this conversation with

(03:43):
doctor Doslinchao Brimedo, Canada. She is amazing. We had some
technical issues in the beginning and we ended up having
to kind of cut the interview a little shorter, but
either way, I think you'll get a lot from this
because as for me personally, as s Latina, as the

(04:03):
first generation, her research on sponsorship compared to mentorship and
various other ways to support one another really resonated and
I realized that throughout my life I've had so many
sponsors without even knowing what the name was. I'm so
glad I get to quote doctor Rusland for her work

(04:25):
and her incredible contributions to making the world a better place.
You want to see us. Here's my conversation with doctor
Russell Cha. So the first question we always ask is
what is your heritage?

Speaker 2 (04:41):
I am Chinese Americans, so born in Seattle, Washington, but
my parents are from Hong Kong.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
And I said your questionaire that they live in San Diego. Yes,
how fun. I'm in Tanea. Oh you are yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Oh I could have done this in person. I'm going
to week.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Oh my gosh. Well, maybe we can do a follow
up since we've been after all the technical difficulties. So
you grew up in Seattle. Talked about that time in
high school when you realized when meritocracy came into your
raider because you were studying and you were making an effort,

(05:25):
but that didn't necessarily mean that you were going to
be seen. Tell you more about that.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, so, well one correction. So I was born in
Seattle and then I actually my parents moved to North
Carolina for two years, and then we moved to San
Diego when I was four. So I did grow up
in San Diego, but there were a few steps in
between there.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
They jump between like country wise.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, I mean I don't remember any of it, but you.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Know, fascinating out like immigrant parents like tend to move
places like big moves.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, we could talk about that too. So so I
went to high school in a very I mean, I
grew up in La Joya, which is a very nice
part of San Diego, right tends to be very wealthy.

(06:28):
My parents did the whole thing where they moved from
another neighborhood to go to to make sure that we
would go to the public schools there. And I did well.
I mean academically, I was. I was a good student,
had those immigrant parents who really like emphasize the importance

(06:50):
of academics and achievement, and I did reasonably well for myself.
I was. I was in the like twenty percent of
my class, maybe ten, depending on how you want to
think about it. Anyway, it doesn't ultimately, it doesn't matter
because the experience that I had was like, if you

(07:14):
weren't in the top five percent, you didn't get any
of the things.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Up black.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
I mean, I got all I got, I got things right. Obviously,
I got into a good college I had. I've been successful,
but at least when I was there, it was treated
like you were not anything special unless you were like
the top of the top.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
And I was friends with people who were at the
top of the top, and I saw how we were
not treated the same. And this is how you get
people who objectively speaking, get a really great life outcome, yeah,
but still feel like they've been disadvantaged in some way right,

(08:05):
or that they've been that's something that they were kind
of entitled to was taken away from them. So I
realized now what an incredibly privileged sentiment that is. But
when I was in high school, it was a really
foundational experience for me that I could work as hard

(08:29):
as I could, I could achieve a lot, I could
fulfill what I considered to be like my side of
the contract, but I didn't get the psychological benefit of
being successful, and it kind of it put me in

(08:52):
a dark place.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
I would say, did you have a conversation with your parents?
How did you overcome it?

Speaker 2 (09:00):
I don't know that I had the words to talk
to my parents about it. They knew that I was
really unhappy, and in Asian culture, mental health is like
not something we talk about.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
I'm in LATINX, but we're sent to go clean Like
your parents are like, what do you mean you're depressed?
Go go clean your room?

Speaker 2 (09:30):
I mean, I think it was it was. It was
striking enough that my parents actually supported me going to
go see like a professional. I ended up getting on medication, which,
you know, in retrospect, I really respect my parents for
being willing to support me in that, because I know
that this was a step they probably would never have

(09:51):
taken for themselves. And I can't remember who brought it up, yup,
or or how it even came about. I mean, obviously
they had to have set up the appointment for me
because I was a minor. But but yeah, so I

(10:12):
ended up ended up getting help for that. But yeah,
it was not not a fun time for sure.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
How is the conversation with your friends with their peers.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
There was a moment where I think, I I I
kind of lost it. When I was at school, I
had I had taken this textbook back to the library
to return it was a very expensive textbook, and at

(10:46):
the beginning of the year, you're supposed to check the
textbook to see if it's been marked up. It's kind
of like when you rent a car, you're supposed to
walk around it first to make sure that there aren't
any like there's no damage before you take it, or
you know that it's already there, and I think I
probably did not do that, being a young person who

(11:08):
doesn't know any better. And so when I tried to
return the textbook at the end of the year, the
head librarian was basically like, look at all these parts
that are marked up. You're gonna have to buy this textbook.
And I was like, but we didn't even cover those chapters,

(11:30):
like you can ask my teacher, like we didn't. We
didn't even we didn't cover that, and he was like,
I don't care. You are returning a damaged textbook and
it's your responsibility and you're gonna have to pay for it.
And I was just so distraught. I felt like he

(11:50):
was taking advantage of me because it was a textbook
that was clearly very well worn, and I was just like,
this guy is just trying to make me pay for
this textbook that they were gonna throw away anyway. Oh yeah,
but also like come on, like why why are you

(12:12):
taking your You're exercising your power in a situation where
like you could have a little bit more compassion. And
also I'm a good kid, like it's not like I yeah, anyway,
I was. I was so upset. I was crying. There

(12:32):
is a parent who was helping with the check in process,
and she was like, oh my gosh. She offered to
pay and I was like, no, I can handle it.
Uh So I paid. Actually I don't know why I
had my check book on me, which I'm just kind
of like one who like, what teenager has their checkbook

(12:53):
on them? What teenager has a check bork? Like, I
don't even understand. But anyway, I ended up going back
to the central Plaza for the high school and I
was like, well, this book is mine now, so what
I'm I? I'm so mad. I took the book and
I started smashing it. I just took it and I

(13:19):
was just like going to town, just like cursing. I
was so upset that I don't know. It was like
I said it was. It was a bad time. So
I think my friends. I remember there was a girl
who watched me and she's like, thank you for doing
the thing that we are all feeling right now.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Okay, nice, But.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
I don't know that we I don't know. I don't
know that I articulated the source of my unhappiness to
my friends. They knew that I was unhappy, but being
a teenager just stinks, Like yeah, in ways. Yes, So
I don't know that I was saying to them, like, man,

(14:07):
I feel like I held up my end of the bargain,
Like why is why does it seem like people don't care? Also,
I think I would have seemed too self aggrandizing. For me,
I would never like talking about it now even I'm
just like a cringe.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
You don't know what you don't know.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
But that was how I felt, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, yeah. And so given that I live in San
Diego and so I know La Joya is like fancy,
And did you notice a difference between your peers and
how they were treated and the axes because in the
book you talk about access, and so at that point,

(14:54):
like looking back, did you notice already the differences between
You're I was gonna say colleagues, but you're not. They're
not colleagues in my or my classmates classmates and.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
You oh, absolutely, I mean yes, but for different reasons.
So you know, So I mentioned I moved to San
Diego when I was four, but I didn't actually move
to La Joya until I was like ten, and I
had been thriving in my elementary school in the earlier

(15:29):
when I lived in Saint Carlos and and when I
moved to La Joya, I will I will give credit
where credit is due. Like the girls there tried to
include me at the very beginning. One of them was
like assigned to be my friend. So I got invited

(15:54):
to the birthday parties of like the popular girls. And
then it became very uh, it quickly became very clear
that I was not I did not have the cultural
capital that was right for this situation, Like I didn't
bring the right presence to birthday parties. I didn't dress

(16:17):
the right way, Like even though my family lived in
La Joya, we were like stretching to live in Lahoya
because my parents were trying to get me access right
to this place where I would have really great opportunities.
But that didn't mean that I had all the other things, yeah,
that the other kids had. So I very quickly became

(16:43):
I mean sure I was bullied when I was there.
It was like I would I would say I had
a pretty rough time of it.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Was it because of status?

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well yes, because of status, like now like you to
now then if I.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
Had to like put it, well, it was status, but
it was also related to power, right because it was
like my parents didn't have the same money that like
these other kids parents did, and so that showed up
in ways that made it clear that I wasn't part
of the crowd group. Now, it was different when I

(17:25):
got to high school because I found kind of like
the nerdy group and so that was kind of like
a safer place to be where a lot of these
kids were not from Ojoya, but they were gifted and
they were they were being brought in because they were
they were gifted. And so I did find my crowd.

(17:48):
But that crowd was really outstanding. That's the other thing, right,
Like I was a mediocre person in that and not
really outstanding. So you know, it's like a double edged

(18:09):
sword there, and.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
You're part of the model minority, yes, which adds on
other expectations.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes, I wasn't model enough.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
And I bring this up because I think there's a
lot of similarities to the workplace and as we move
into as we grow up, people like you and me,
we find ourselves sometimes in places in workplaces and spaces
that have the social capital that you talk about in

(18:45):
the book, but sometimes we don't quite you know, you're
just kind of navigating it because we put the work
in it, or we may have been sponsored, and there's
still this feeling of like, oh, like you still have
to learn to navigate the like various instances that we

(19:05):
don't have the lived experience for. And so I think
it's really powerful to be like, well, we've been kind
of experiencing this for a long time in so many
different ways, and it's not like uncommon for us to
live it now.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, it's and this is something that you know, uh
so I study people's experiences with being part of social
groups that have more or less power, and you know,
I think pam Weight you're pointing to is like for
a lot of Asian Americans, especially second generation Asian Americans,

(19:44):
where we're contending with like, well, we're advantaged in some ways,
but we're disadvantaged in others. And you're like not disadvantaged
enough to be part of some and you're also not
advantaged enough to be part of other parties. It's like

(20:04):
a very it's a very strange place to be, but
it does give me, I think, some insight into both
sides totally.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
And like I think, as I was reading the book,
I thought of the many instances where like one that
comes up like For example, when I was in a
CEO I was I was not replacing, but I was
a sub for the CEO of the company that I
worked at because he couldn't go to like a CEO meeting.

(20:38):
He was like, Pam you go because I used to
work directly under him and the guy next to me,
he was like, hey, can you bring me coffee? I
was like, wait, I'm sitting. I have a seat at
the table, just like you. You have likes, sir, you know,
I don't think he would have asked that if there
was another guy, a white man like him, right right,

(21:02):
And so thinking about the various instances and how we
navigate the world, the expectation and the axis and the
status and the power and the hierarchies that you study
come into play in so many places.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
For sure. And I would say that now that I
study it, I can't unsee it, And that has its
own problems. Sometimes I really wish that I could just
live life not being like hyper sensitive to some of

(21:37):
these dynamics. But yeah, they're always there if you even
if you don't notice it, always there.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, but I think we feel it, no, Yeah, Like
I've been in places where your body responds in a
different and then I've had conversations with other people in
different groups and we've talked about how like you feel it,
and then you get home and you're like, oh, yeah,
that was not right.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah, and when you're yeah, when
you're in high school, I don't we did not have.
I think high schoolers now actually have more awareness of
some of these dynamics, not necessarily in a way that's necessary.
That's like helping them though sometimes that's a whole other conversation,

(22:30):
a whole other conversation.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
There's so much to talk about because, like I have
so many sticky notes and the book, So you wrote
this book, the Doors you can open a new way
to a network, build trust, and use your influence to
create a more inclusive workplace, and you point out so
many things power access obviously sponsorship and why sponsorship is

(22:56):
key and powerful, and it made me as I was
reading it, I thought about the many times I've been
sponsored in so many ways, and how I've had access
to people and resources because I've been sponsored. And I
call him Uncle Mark. Shout out to Mark. He's an old,
rich white man literally, and he will tell you this,

(23:20):
but somehow he likes me and he makes introductions all
the time.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
But to there's a part in the book when you
talk about like when people sponsored, there's there's this reputation
attached to it. Yeah, and so it's not the let's
talk about not just expecting to be sponsored, also responding

(23:48):
to the sponsorship and showing up for it, because it's
happened in the past where you may get sponsored and
then you don't, well you ended up the bargain and
that so the other person is like, oh, well I'm
not going to do that again.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Oh yeah, they get burned. Yeah yeah, yeah. So and
so this is actually one of the ways that I
try to distinguish sponsorship from mentorship, right, which is like mentorship,
people talk to you, they spend time, they take you
out to coffee, they listen to your woes, they give

(24:25):
you advice, and the time is not nothing, but your
social refutation is in some ways like much more valuable.
And so when a sponsor goes out of their way
to like introduce you to people or vouches for you. So, Pam,
if you had gone in place of your CEO and

(24:47):
made it complete fool of yourself, I bet you your
CEO would have heard about it.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
For forever and never send me again.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Never send you again, but potentially never send anyone else too, right,
because he would be like, oh my gosh, the risk
is just way too high, Like I would rather not
have anyone go than like send someone where like I'm
not certain or the standards are going to be way
higher right for him to be willing to send someone again.

(25:20):
So there are all these downstream consequences for sponsors when
protegees don't hold their end of the bargain right, pull
their weight in a way that that's just like not
true for mentorship, right, Like if your mentee doesn't listen
to your advice, you're kind of like, well, didn't work

(25:40):
out for you, but like I'm fine, you know, but yeah,
sponsor is not gonna not gonna come out of the
experience in the same way.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
So I've seen this before where I've sponsored people even
because I don't have access, my social capita is not huge,
and I have met like really cool peeps, and like,
I feel like you answered a lot of the things
that have been in my mind, one being the reputation

(26:12):
because I have even the guests that I interview like
every seat emails like, oh, you interviewed doctor Chell. Could
you do an introduction? And I'm like no, like why
and so like there's no, like I don't know because
my reputation is now I know this, you know, Like

(26:34):
why would I do an introduction because like just because
you asked me and this is someone who I don't know, right, Like,
there's no I don't know what you're gonna do with this. Man.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
I got an email from Pam.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
Correct, right, so there's like science, thank you for answering
all the questions that I've been asking myself and like,
and I've it's been when I've had those instances, I'm like,
am I like an ass whole? Like because I don't
want to make the introduction. But it's not that I
don't want to make the introduction, is that I think

(27:06):
there has to be a reason for the introduction, not
just because you want to meet the other person, because
I also value your time, right you know? And so yeah,
there's it's layered.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, So I've tried. I've I've been I think more
more willing to make introductions now than I used to be.
But I I'm never the kind of person who will
just be like, hey, Pam, you should meet like personex

(27:38):
over here have at it all? Right, so I will
if I am going to introduce people to each other,
I my standard is basically, can I articulate a reason
for why it would be good for both sides? Right?
And so you know, if I were you and somebody
was like, hey, I loved this guest that you have

(28:00):
on can you please intro me? I would probably be
asking them like, okay, but I need a little more information,
like why do you want to meet them? Like what
do you hope to get out of this? And like
nine times out of ten, people won't respond to that
because for them, like making the ask is very little effort,

(28:21):
but then when you ask for follow up information, it's
like more effort than they actually want to give. So
that's like a very easy way way to just like
screen out people who are not serious and also if
they can't articulate to yeah, it's just like no.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
I had a specific person that asked for an introduction
with a guest that late, like after our talk, we
actually became like colleagues. I wouldn't say like best friends,
but you know we have a relationship. And this person
asked for an intro and I and I said, let's
talk about this. Why do literally, why do you want

(29:01):
to introduction? This other person is really busy, and so
I want to make sure that when if I do
the introduction, there's a reason, like you, you're going to
have substance there, and as you give me your pitch,
I'm going to send that to them first to see
if they want.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
To meet you, right, yeah, because.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Otherwise I'm not just gonna knock on the door and
be like, hey, I brought a guest, yes and so,
And this was an actual conversation with this person, and
she was like really gracious about it, and actually she understood,
and she was like, thank you for being clear about it.
Think about why I want to meet this person. I
don't just want to have them in my rolodex for

(29:42):
the young people. It's like on my adverse book.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
I guess my context.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yes, And then we both decided that it wasn't the
right time. Good yeah, and so, but we had to
have the conversation. And so I think that clarity think
you pointing it out is key to then be like
is this the time or maybe we need to wait
about it.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
And I actually think Pam. This is like also a
great example of how you can titrate how much you
want to sponsor someone, because you're right, there's a version
where you just jump straight to introducing the two of them,
or you can in a way like ask permission right

(30:27):
of the especially if there's one person who is more
powerful than the other and they have like more limited
bandwidth in terms of time, for you to ask them
if they'd be willing to entertain an introduction is actually
a way of showing respect for them. So that's you know,
so yes, you can either be like, sure, I'll sponsor you,

(30:52):
and then you send the email and that's how you
get to Wow, it's Pam again, rights you sending an
email and being like, here's this person who's interested in
speaking with you. I'm not sure, Like I think it
could be a good fit, but I don't necessarily like
want to make any promises about it. You know, I'll

(31:15):
let you decide, like how you if you'd like this
to happen, And so you give them a little bit
more agency and that's just like a little bit more respectful.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
Totally totally, let's talk about power, because that's something that
also you talk about is and I have noticed how
people are more interested in you when they know they
when they realize your power. So I'm a brown woman
and typically when I go to like networking events, like

(31:52):
I don't I'm not the one that everyone wants to
talk about or talk to unless they learn something about me.
Right then when they do, it's like they pass it
on and everyone's like, oh, you're like the so and so,
depending on what intersection they learn about me. So whether
I'm a podcaster or I also I'm a consult consultant

(32:13):
for this government organization that people are like curious about.
And so tell me more about power. How does power
play into.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well, so the book is about sponsorship. But I think
one thing you're you're you're pointing to is the fact that,
in reality, I think of this book as like my
diatribe against networking.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
You just had to do it right.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Well, I give a path forward that I think is
potentially a better reply.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, I think so not so transactional.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
As a person who I think would easily be seen
as lacking any sort of you know, lacking value in
being someone that someone would want to connect with. I mean,
I have a lot of things going against me I'm
super short, I look young, I'm Asian, I'm a woman.
I mean, there's like many many things that don't work

(33:15):
in my favor. And I know that, you know, I've
had enough experiences to know that when I walk into
a room, people are probably not going to pay attention
to me. And that makes me sad, right like that
people have essentially decided that I'm not somebody who's worth
getting to know. So I talk about in the book

(33:40):
how you know we have essentially decided that networking is
really like we're very goal oriented in networking, where we're
trying to find other people with resources that we might need.
And once we start talking about resources, you're automatically in
this realm of power. Because for academics, power is basically

(34:04):
control and access sever resources. And so when you go network,
you're essentially scanning the room looking to see who has power.
And then the people who you think have the most
power are going to be the most attractive people in
terms of who you want to network with, which is
why people like me who do not look traditionally like

(34:27):
very powerful, I'm probably not going to be someone you
want to talk to for very long, if at all.
I love those times when you like stop someone and
they're talking to you, but they're like clearly scanning around. Yes,
that's my favorite thing because then I just call them
out on it. I'm like, I can see that you

(34:51):
would like to be somewhere else right now, Like it's okay,
you do not have to stay and talk to me.
And I'm just queen awkward, which is probably another reason
why people don't like networking with me. But anyway, so
in the book, what I talk about is how there's

(35:14):
like a different orientation towards networking, which is not about
finding who has the resources that you might need, but
really it's about finding people with problems and people who
could be potential solutions to those problems. And so networking
is not about you in a way at all. It's

(35:36):
entirely about other people. And so then the game is
not to share as much as possible about yourself, although
obviously you can if they seem interested in learning more
about you, but it is actually about how do you
get really high quality information from other people about themselves

(35:59):
so that you can say, Hey, I know this podcaster
or Pam, and I think you would be a really
great person to like be on her show. Or you
should talk with her, and then of course then I
would have to come back to you and be like,
oh maam yeh wants to be with you? Is that okay?

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yes? Yeah? I like the podcaster thing is like when
I'm in networking events and they're like, oh, you're what
do I need to do to be on your podcast?
And I'm like, I don't know. I don't like, why
would I want you on my podcast? Like tell me
more about you first?

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, that's a that's a hard one. So this is
why I hired a PR firm, right right, because I
don't know how to do that for myself. Like I
am not gonna go and be like, hey, Pam, you
don't know me. I would love to be a guest
on your podcast, right well?

Speaker 1 (36:57):
VisiC Price how many people with well?

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Right? But I yes, But then it just it begs
the question of like who are all the people who
you should could know about who like just don't feel
comfortable doing that right right? And all of those people
are like missing out on being a guest here, and

(37:20):
your audience is missing out on hearing from their perspectives.
It leads to a situation where like you have these
really strong selection effects for the only people who get
heard about are the people who are really assertive about
advocating for themselves, and that's like, that's just a shame.
Like that's not to say that they shouldn't be rewarded

(37:41):
for their assertiveness, but like people who are not as
assertive in that way, especially when there's like cultural socialization
that basically says like this is not how you go
about things, right, You're like penalizing those people, right and
making it so that oh, you know, they're perspectives aren't heard.

(38:03):
So yeah, I mean I ponied up for a PR
firm so that they would sponsor me.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
I was gonna say, so, is that a form that
is a form of a sponsorship?

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Oh? Absolutely absolutely, because the PR firm also has a
vested interest in making sure that they only pitch to
the audiences that would be interested, right, And they also
do it in a way that doesn't makes it really
easy for the audience to say no. Right. It's their

(38:33):
version of like, hey, Pam, would you be interested? And
you could have been like yeah, pass and that would
have been fine. Yeah, nobody's nobody's upset about that, right.
So it so they absolutely are engaging in sponsorship because
if they make bad matches in the future, you're gonna

(38:56):
be like that person. I don't want anyone like I
do not want anyone that they're pitching to me.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
There's so much more to talk about. So something I
wanted to point out that you mentioned in the book
is the findings by Catalysts, where they basically found that
men and women were about equally likely to report having

(39:25):
an active mentorship relationship, so about fifty percent of women
and fifty five percent of men. Yay. However, the returns
to men and women for having a mentor were different.
Men who have mentor who had mentors were paid six
seven hundred and twenty six dollars more in their first
jobs than men than were men without a mentor. In contrast,

(39:49):
the pay boost for women with mentors with only six
hundred and sixty one dollars more than women without a mentor.
Perhaps most scaling, men with mentors reported receiving nine two
hundred and sixty dollars more in their first job than
women with mentors, even when controlling four years of experience, industry,
and global regions. Oh yeah, okay, I was like, wait,

(40:17):
tell me more about that.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, that one's that one's yeah, that's unfortunate. Ah yeah,
there's there's a lot going in there. But the reason
I talk about that study in the book is because
when they dig deeper into the data, what they find
is that the mentors of men tend to be higher

(40:44):
in the organizational like work chart than the mentors of women.
And you can kind of you know, and then you
start digging into like, well, who is mentoring homes? So
like men are predominantly mentored by men, women are actually
a little bit more equally split, but still leaning more

(41:06):
heavily towards women mentoring women. There's all this other research
on women's preferences for same gender mentors because they have
certain assumptions about the quality of mentorship that they're going
to receive. But anyway, what they end up identifying is

(41:27):
like when you actually control for organizational rank of the mentor,
that in a way like explains a way so much
of this difference that the and this goes back to power,
that the power of the mentor matters for what happens
with the person being mentored. So but also I guess

(41:51):
the other thing that I was pointing out in this
study is that again they're talking about mentorship. They don't
distinguish between mentorship and sponsorship. So there's another potential explanation here,
which is like that the men are saying that they
have mentors, but in reality, what they have our sponsors,
and then women saying that they have mentors, and those women,
because they have less power truly are just just I

(42:15):
your quote just because I don't want to say like
mentorship isn't important, because it is, but it just matters
in a very different way when we're talking about objective
outcomes like raises, promotions, pay, that sort of thing. So
it's possible. And I think that that's the conclusion that

(42:37):
the Catalyst folks come down to, is that yes, men
and women say that they're getting equal amounts of mentorship,
but in reality, men are getting more sponsorship and women
are just you know, they're getting less.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
There's a lot there. Yeah, it makes sense. I'm thinking
about like when I was in corporate, I'm like, yeah,
or like two women right.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Also, you know, like if you have a tendency to
you know, want mentors who are your same gender or
your same race, as you can hire in the there's
less org chart, right, there's going to be way fewer
of them, which is its own its own problem, right,
because even if you're a person of color, you're a

(43:22):
woman at the top of a company, then you also
start getting into this thing where people expect you to
mentor and sponsor other women and other you know, and
racial minorities, and that can also have an impact on
how like, uh, seriously they take your sponsorship. So there's

(43:44):
there's a lot that goes into some of these dynamics.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
So much, and this could be my own buias in
my own experience, but something that I like in my
I guess I'll talk for myself. What I have lived
through is that I've been sponsored many times by black
women and by white women and Latinas typically and Latinos

(44:11):
more so. Latino men tend to be like, you need
to earn your spot.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, yeah, I also have. I mean, I I hint
at this in the book, but I will say this
like explicitly for your for your listeners. I feel like
most of my sponsors were black. They were you know,
black men and women, but then also white women. And

(44:41):
it's just amazing to me that I talked to a
lot of black interviewees for the book and their sensitivity
to sponsorship and what they can do for others is
just like it's very high. Yeah, you know, in comparison
to some of these other people that I talked to

(45:04):
who are from different racial backgrounds, they just seem much
more sensitive to like, this is what I need and
this is what I can give, And most of us
are just kind of wandering around. We're not really thinking.
We think about what we need. Yeah, yeah, we're not

(45:25):
necessarily thinking about what we could give.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, we have a lot to learn there, and with
that you're give us this exercises of the Trusted ten
and also the sponsored the sponsored stretch YEP, the Stretch
Sponsorship ten, and I think those are like awesome. I
have a framework of your relationships that I created because

(45:51):
when I was navigating all of this without guidance, I
started thinking about the people that were in my life.
And I recently changed it, but I used to talk
about it in the form of a house. So and
like I always like to make things fun. So the
walls of WiFi, the pillars and the garden homes, and

(46:13):
so the walls are the people that probably your trust
A ten and the pillars are your trust A ten YEP.
You know, the ones that you have important conversations with.
You know they'll be there. The Wi fi are the
people that give information, like bring information, give information like
the potentially the the trend like they know people potentially sponsors.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
And the pictures are the people that you look up to,
so like historical figures, actual humans that you now like
you put them in pictures. Yeah, and you know you
look up to them like okay one day. And then
the garden nomes they are the ones that live outside
the house. So they're like the people that you go

(46:59):
to brunch with but that's it, and you talk about
how you have like but they make things fun. Yeah, yeah,
you go on walks with them, but you know, you
never talk about like the challenge that you're facing at work, right,
and so these exercises I'm like, oh, this is kind
of like the people from work. Yeah, And I think
it's what I got was the invitation to not just

(47:21):
look to receive, but also make it a revolving door
and so not just explore like who are the people
that can like give me access to resources, other people, whatever,
but also who do I have access to that I
can support? And I think that's where we're to the

(47:42):
previous conversation that we had. That's where some of us
might be missing that part of Like, no, I also
right have some access, some form of power and some
hierarchical social what's it called capital? And so tell me where.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Yeah, no, I mean it reminds me of something that
I share or I haven't talked about in the book
because this is a longer story. But basically, for a
long time, the title of the book was going to
be something that I was like not happy with, and
it wasn't until the very last moment. I was like,

(48:24):
I cannot go out and talk about this book if
this is the title, and I said, well, I have
always wanted the title to be The Doors You Can Open.
And then the reason why my agent was not into
that was because she was like, she you have no idea,
like what is that even about? So maybe that's going
to hurt me in the end. But it's ambiguous in

(48:46):
a way, like deliberately so about who you're opening the
door for. Yes, are you opening the door for you?
Or are you opening the door for other people? And
that's kind of what I really want to emphasize about ourselves.
This is like we're so focused and the doors that
we can open for ourselves or the doors that other

(49:06):
people can open for us, and we don't really think
about the doors we can open for other people. And
also that the more doors we open for other people,
the more doors they're going to try and open for us.
And so maybe it's you know, a lot of people
I think are like, well, let me get into the
position of power and then I can start opening doors

(49:29):
for other people. But that's like kicking the can down
the road for in a way. So I'm hopeful that
people realize, like, even very early on, there's so much
more you can do that even our little things and
then aren't as risky or costly as like some of

(49:50):
the things that we talked about before that can really
impact who gets opportunities, who get seen, And it is
a long game, like the approach in the book is
definitely a long game, but it is this idea that
the reason the way that you can get ahead is
by being known as someone who opens door for other people,

(50:12):
and people like people who give other people opportunities. We're
kind of we're socialized to respect and admire people who
are really like giving in that way, and for those
who've been paying attention. What we're talking about is status,
which is admiration. It's way easier to get power when

(50:37):
you have admiration, so status comes before power. Power usually
does not come first, so you can you can end
up having your cake and eating it too. But this
is like the much nicer way of getting there.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Awesome, Well, doctor Russell and Chow tell us all the
places in spaces where we can find you, where we
can find the book. How could we connect with your work?

Speaker 2 (51:05):
So I post regularly on LinkedIn. I like to summarize research,
so I don't talk about my own. I like to
talk about other people's research. I like to sponsor them
to other people.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
A good translation of research.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Thank you for that, so you can follow me on LinkedIn. Otherwise,
my website rosalind dot shows another good way to keep
abreast of what's going on. And please read the book
and get in touch with me and let me know
what you think.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
We'll have the link to the book. But they can
find it everywhere, right, so we typically link bookshop dot org,
which is yes, it supports local bookstores. Yes, so always
go to your local bookstore everyone for sure? Okay, I
have to ask this because we started with this. Even

(52:01):
in the book is just Russell and Chow. We don't
have doctor Russell and Chow.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
I know. I tried to add doctor at the at
the very last second, and they were just kind of like,
I don't know, nobody listened to me, and in the end,
I guess I didn't. I mean, yeah, it's it's an
open question of whether or not people are going to

(52:27):
like not pick it up because they think it's not something,
or you know, people who are who think that professors
are just like out of touch with reality might be
more willing to pick it up. I don't.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
I mean, I think I I've read a lot of
books by academics, and even I have clients that I'm
always like, I don't need to read your dissertation. Can
you just make it like tenth grade?

Speaker 2 (52:57):
Right?

Speaker 1 (52:58):
And and so? But this book it was like it
was so easy to read, Like I didn't feel like
I was reading a dissertation.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
You know, It's weird because I feel like non academics
are like, wow, this book was so great, And I
know what that means is that my academic peers are
going to be like, what a fluff piece?

Speaker 1 (53:23):
Well, I think you read it for the right people.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
I hope, so, I hope so yeah, No, it was,
it was, it was. It was a lot of fun
to work on. I really loved writing it, and I
hope people love reading it, and I hope people get
a lot of benefit from knowing about it. But thank
you for sponsoring me.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
Yeah, anytime. No, this is great. Like when I got
the pitch, I was like, of course, because I even
just reading the summary of the book, I'm like, I've
been sponsored many times.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
Yeah, and even the stories, like there's so many stories
that you share that would have time to talk about
that it just showcases it kind of like amplifies the concept.
Oh yeah, makes sense.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Well, I'm glad to hear that you you enjoyed it. Wow,
you pulled a lot out of me that I don't
think i've shared publicly before about like high school and stuff.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
So yeah, usually happens. Usually happens like Ambama outen here,
like I've.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Never that's your superpower.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
I guess yes, I'll own that. I'll own that. Well,
thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Yeah, thank you, it's great.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Awesome. One of listeners, if this is a podcast that
has ever inspired you in some way, this is my
time to ask for help because we show up every week,
week after week with free content for you, and there

(55:03):
are some ways that you can support us so we
can continue to create more and more episodes for you.
We need to as we are bringing more financial support
through sponsorships. We want to show them that you're here.
Free ways to do it. Leave it rating in a
review on your podcast app if you're listening. It helps
so much because that allows for partners that are looking

(55:27):
to work with us to see that you care. Another
very easy way is to share this with someone who
you care about, someone whom you think would resonate with this,
with this episode, with this content, with this channel, with
this podcast. Of course, subscribe on YouTube is something that
also helps. We're looking to get to our five hundred.

(55:50):
Help us get there, please do. There are other paid
ways if you feel called to support us. There is
the Supporters Club for only five dollars a month, you
get exclusive content, You get add free episodes, which is
the biggest draw into doing being a part of the
Supporters Club. You can also check out my work as

(56:12):
a coach. I have developed a body of work around
dismantling gayeta culture and this is my invitation to you
for you to come and support me if you want
to work with me directly. Also, if you're someone in
an organization, you can hire me to speak at your workplace.

(56:32):
Let's bring the conversations to even more people. Let's make
change together. Let's stay connected on all the socials at
podcast which I was get as

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