January 23, 2025 • 48 mins
We've made it. It's time to Master Eight with ya' Cage Match crew. Join as we learn how repetitive we are over the past three years. Our final eight movies kick off with Con Air and Red Rock West. Two ripped-ass Cage's being badasses. Who wins? Dave Chappelle's fake corpse or Dennis Hopper's turkey sandwich? Now entering / leaving Cage Match.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Oh god.
(00:03):
Oh my god.
Fuck!
Well, unfortunately I'll make it because fucking Spidey will keep me young.
(00:27):
Yeah, there you go. And you don't need hot pockets like a real asshole.
Hey, hot pockets are full of preservatives. That's what keeps us going.
That's right. Yeah. From inside out, baby.
Twenty years of hard drinking and 35 years of like daily Twinkies.
I'm pretty sure my insides are completely just like...
I thought you were going to go for the rhyme on that. Sorry.
(00:49):
Twenty years of hard drinking, five years of hard twinking.
No, not yet.
Only five years of Twinkies? Oh, well, you're at your double Twinkie days.
Thirty five years of Twinkies.
Oh, okay. Thirty five years of hard Twinkies.
Which counts as seventy, right? Yeah.
(01:10):
Seventy years of hard Twinkies.
Single father. You know, that was my breakfast.
It makes sense.
A packet of Twinkies thrown at me in the morning.
It's got everything you need. It's got like grain elements.
Some sort of dairy ish element in the cream filling.
Yeah. Oh, God.
Going back and listening to our Con Air versus Ghost Rider episode.
(01:35):
Oh, yeah. The term suck tube that Twinkie.
Yeah. I did listen to enough of that episode to remember suck tubing.
I know. I think immediately I chastise you. I said, don't say suck tube.
It's like, no, you should suck tube.
It's a great term.
Yeah, it was really interesting going back and listening to ourselves.
(01:59):
I didn't hate it as much as I thought I was going to.
Yeah, I think I had been prepared for disappointment over the last two years that going back to it wasn't so bad.
Yeah. Not not that I was surprised by it, but I think the thing that stood out to me about myself is that I really hate long movies.
And I talk about it a lot.
(02:20):
You have the most like familial responsibility.
And plus editing takes time and all that kind of stuff.
So yeah. So I guess that means your opinion means less in this.
Sure. Yeah. Why not? You're biased.
That's true. I've heard it more. Yeah.
(02:41):
Also, we did offer you the official title of host and you turned it down.
So you dug your own grave there. It's true.
That's a good point. Was that that was a critique I got early on in this podcast.
He's like, Peter should be a host. I'm like, he likes the term producer.
What can I tell you? Yeah, there's already two hosts.
Yeah. Don't you just get lost in the. Yeah. Lost in the storm. No, no, I'm different.
(03:06):
I have a different IMDB credit than you guys.
IMDB. I'm actually glad we stopped doing that because if I had gotten too big and too powerful,
I would have had to go move to Hollywood and then I would have been involved in all the palisades.
I would have been involved involved in the word there.
(03:27):
I would have been out there like with a fan creating more wind.
Santa Ana winds. Look at me.
So is this still cage match, colon around about way of meeting Nicolas Cage?
Debatable. But yes. Well, in that case, I'm your host, Sean, here with my co-host Nick and our producer.
(03:48):
Peter, hello. When we started this podcast, we took 64 Nicolas Cage movies, bracketed them down
into different categories. Genre. That's the word I'm thinking of.
You can edit this to make sense. We take two movies each week and have through process of elimination,
got it down to the final eight. Yeah. Welcome to the master eight.
(04:14):
Yeah. Master eight with us, folks. Still stupid and still makes me laugh.
So this will be the final match up of the action genre with our top two contenders,
Con Air and Red Rock West. Is that right?
(04:36):
Did I prepare for the did I prepare correctly for the room this week?
What we ended up doing is listening to a little bit of our back catalog recordings of ourselves, you know,
to try and get a little idea of how we got to this point.
Some of these movies are really obvious why they would make it here.
I mean, it kind of makes sense that they're great movies.
But, you know, our decision making along the way has had some spotty Ness and it's kind of nice to some spot on Ness.
(05:00):
Spot on Ness. It was nice to kind of review that.
So going back and the one that I really enjoyed was listening to with Chris Koffel talking about Ghost Rider
and Con Air. I think we fucked our ghost writer spirit of on John's.
I think we fucked that one up. Ghost Rider just sounds more fun.
No, I think we got it just right. Yeah.
(05:21):
Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance was an enjoyable film, but in no way deserved to join the master.
It was a great movie. I mean, I think back on that movie relatively often it does have suck tubing,
which, you know, plus two points for that. But I just can't see it in this this collection of great movies that we've got right now.
(05:46):
Sorry, Vengeance. But yeah, I mean, on the way to these movies, you know, Con Air took out Rage, which sucked.
Which one was that again? That was the that's the one where he like the daughter was partying with the other kids.
Right. Someone gets shot. She got shot. Yeah. Yeah. With his gun or something.
(06:08):
And then the kids are all like, oh, no, some dudes broken in a home invasion and they shot your daughter or some shit like that.
And then he puts on his crime jacket. Oh, yeah. And remember, then it's got old iron sides. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Wheelchair. And this is starting to sound familiar. Was this the first crime jacket? Is this when we started crime jackets?
(06:33):
Yeah, I believe this is our first conversation about crime, crime time and crime jackets and criminals,
because we did end up talking about it more with Gone In 60 Seconds, because he also has a crime jacket. Yes.
Does he have a crime? He has a crime jacket and stolen as well. He does. Yeah. Notably stolen, beaten by Red Rock West.
Yeah. So Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance, Fon Johnce and Face Off as well, which is probably our most contentious piece of the Con Air journey to hear.
(07:01):
No, not at all. We got that one spot on. Well, you were actually pushing for Face Off in in that recording, which I don't disagree with you.
I mean, Gary and Rocks had a good argument for it, but there is something about Con Air that just like is more rewatchable.
I don't know. I just I would just really I just listened to that episode this morning.
(07:22):
No, Shay made a great point when talking about Con Air and saying how like also rewatching Face Off fell asleep during Face Off.
It's just it's it's not as frenetic and isn't as fun. Yeah. Face Off has pacing issues.
Con Air is just stupid fun. I mean, that's the thing. It's like Face Off actually at multiple points is just stupid.
(07:49):
Yeah. Con Air is just a lot of fun. I really like it. It's idiotic. Yeah. Great hair.
Terrific hair. Some of the best. Bangin' body. Yeah. Nice pair of jeans. Yeah, right.
I know the poster art that I sent you. He's got a very trim waist there. Yeah. He must be wearing like a size 30.
These are two hot cages between Con Air and Red Rock West. Yeah. Good looks.
(08:13):
This is this was him at some of his I think strongest both times like beefiest bod.
No one on push ups in Con Air, but he did that finger thing where he like was holding himself up. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Just pull ups and stuff. Highly impressive. Yeah. And he did origami.
How was Con Air on round four? I'm not going to lie.
(08:38):
I was excited like before I even knew which movie Josie was putting in.
I was excited to think that it was going to be Con Air and then it was Con Air.
And I was just that movie just holds my attention.
I love the silly accent. I love just everything like from the bunny. The how do I live without you?
(09:08):
It's so good. I'm enraptured when that movie comes on.
It's got it holds so much for me. All the little jokes. At this point, I'm like saying the lines with it.
It's become my Rocky Horror Picture Show where I am just part of the film as I watch it.
Oh, this would be such a fun movie for a midnight showing. This would be terrific.
(09:32):
Yeah. You could have everyone show up as a different convict.
Anyone who shows up is Danny Trejo's character gets immediately sent to jail. Yeah. Yep.
It's just it's a room full of Garland Green's. Yeah. Bug eyed fucking weirdos.
(09:54):
Yeah, there's just something about that movie. I mean, it's it's so over the top.
I mean, it is it's kind of like just turning it up to 11.
Like everything is just absolutely absurd.
And again, I don't want it to be two and a half hours long or whatever it is almost.
But it's an hour and 50 minutes. It's only like four and a half hours longer than Red Rock.
All right. All right. Yeah.
(10:17):
Arguably, the only way to bring it down to an hour and a half is to cut Colmini's character completely, which I do think you could do.
But the plot like the movie would suffer from it would suffer from it. Yeah.
But it's the only thing you could take out that wouldn't have like other ramifications.
Yeah. No one's taken away my Dave Chappelle corpse. I know.
(10:42):
I mean, you could take out like I think Peter said this last time.
You could take out the whole airstrip, the airfield thing. Yeah.
We needed something other than the airplane, I think.
And right. It's a good stopover before they get back on the airplane.
And once you get to have the creepy scene with Garland Green. Yeah.
You wouldn't have that otherwise. Exactly.
(11:03):
Otherwise, he's just creeping on people on the plane.
It's a moment of heightened tension for his character.
Both of these films really are more ensemble pieces like in neither of these films, I feel, is like Nick Cage, the focal performance, like the most interesting and out there performance.
He's pretty sedate as his character in each role, but he's got such good foils like we have Cyrus the virus in Conair.
(11:31):
And then we have President Cooper in Red Rock West. Lyle Lyle from Texas.
So you have like these big over the top, almost comically, cartoonishly so villains against Cage.
And I like I find it interesting that for the top two action films, we picked two of Nick Cage's more calmer characters.
(11:56):
Yeah, it's kind of interesting, though, looking at his action roles.
He's rarely like an extreme badass or anything.
I mean, he is a badass in these, but he's also sort of just like the driving force for the story, which is interesting.
You know, Connors, sorry, face off was sort of an exception where he's like wild.
(12:17):
But like a lot of these, he's just sort of like a dude. Yeah. More of an everyman.
I mean, there's a lot of these action hero dudes who will be like everything is about them being invincible, basically.
And he's not I mean, in either of these, particularly not Red Rock West. Yeah.
Well, I don't know. In Conair, he does like have that scene where he's like marching forward and he gets shot and just like keeps going.
(12:44):
He's like, I can still do this. I can take him down. That's a good point.
I forgot about that. He has a he has that like superhero moment for himself.
Well, I think it comes down to for the genre of just action films, the whole thing that sets the plot in motion, the whole thing that drives the movie forward is always going to be the villain because they're the one actually trying to get something done.
Yeah. The hero is just there to stop them.
(13:07):
So like the villains always going to be the most interesting part.
At least the largest performative part. Yes. Would be the villain. Yeah.
It's interesting kind of thinking about his voice acting in this and Red Rock West.
It's like Red Rock West is sort of like a proto voice for Conair. It's like a little bit southern, but not quite.
(13:29):
He like hadn't quite kicked to the tires enough.
And then Conair, he went real far.
He went real Alabama. Real Alabama.
Yeah, I liked it. I mean, you know, even the the corniness of the voice.
I think it lends its own charm to the performance.
But you just personally, I get into it.
(13:53):
Oh, yeah. I like listening.
It makes. Yeah. Lines like that.
Just so much better. Oh, God, it's so stupid. It's fantastic.
What do you think your favorite part of Conair is favorite part like a specific like a whole scene or?
Yeah, it could be a scene or it could just be like, what's the reason this movie works for you and you like it?
(14:19):
Cyrus the virus. Just that performance like that.
Just I mean, I did want to talk about this kind of when we were kind of getting more head to head and kind of starting to make an actual case.
But it'll fit here.
When we were discussing these movies the last two times, when we kept talking about things we loved about these films and like the scenes that stood out to us,
(14:40):
most of the scenes didn't have Nick Cage in them.
Like most of like the stuff that we talked about as like our favorite scenes and our most enjoyable moments were largely centered around the other characters.
And they weren't so much like Nick Cage scenes.
It was the scene in the prison where like the door like goes flying or Cyrus's, you know, one of Cyrus's speeches or something.
(15:06):
Yeah, I could see how in a sense of that, like Nick Cage, his role in the film is more of like a reaction role.
Like he's watching, he's seen, he's in the background or on the side of like this action or whatever.
And through the movie up until the like real heavy action moments, he is performing the part of like, I don't know, sort of like the audience.
(15:35):
Like seeing this and giving voice to what the audience would be like thinking like, what the fuck's up with this guy?
I don't know. But a lot. My take on that is like he performs the role of the audience's voice in the film.
I think my favorite part of Con Air is the script, honestly, just all the like there's so many little jokes and there's just good one liners throughout the whole thing.
(16:03):
And it's it's fun to say them and it's fun to say them to each other or like to coworkers.
Yeah. I mean, Sean, you pointed out last time it's like that script was getting rewritten constantly to it's like that's what makes it even more impressive that they came out with something that is memorable.
You know, because a lot of those stories where you have a script getting rewritten every day, it's like, oh, that movie sucks.
(16:26):
Yeah, I think this exists in like a magical place where it's like you don't need to have strong ties scene to scene so it can be rewritten.
Like we're on a pretty static set piece with, you know, ancillary stuff for like combini and John Cusack.
John Cusack. Thank you. Existing on dirt.
(16:48):
Birkenstock wearing motherfucker.
And their scenes, you know, don't have to tie super directly onto the airplane and everything on the airplane could be set up almost like vignettes.
So long as you get to the ending of the movie, this movie really works solely based on when it came out.
(17:09):
Like if that movie came out now, as is, it would be torn apart.
It would not. It would be like just thought of as terrible.
I think coming out pre Internet before, like, you know, armchair critics like ourselves were there to like tell everyone was terrible.
You didn't have, you know, streaming. You had like it was a big dumb popcorn movie and it became a bit of a cult hit.
(17:33):
And, you know, we all loved it. And we now like, oh, we have it whenever we can watch.
We come back to it. But I don't think that this works in a content as a contemporary film and only works because, you know, we still love it from what you know, originally engaged with it.
I will point out that Fast and Furious movies gross over a billion dollars every time.
(17:58):
And they are considerably worse than this spiritual successors to this in concept.
I think we did talk about that, like those are the only films that kind of still exist.
It's possible. Yeah. I mean, I will always take a chance to talk about Fast and Furious movies to Ross back.
Yeah, come on. OK, so one of the pieces, one of the pieces of this movie that I've come around on because I used to think it was really stupid firetruck.
(18:24):
OK. And the Smasher. Yeah.
That ending, it's a great little like escalation every time that I think it's intentional. Oh, absolutely.
Them hopping on the fucking motorcycles. The first time I saw it, I was like, dumb.
Second time I saw it, I was like, corny. Now I'm like, yeah, fuck. Yeah. Yeah. You get the other cops that follow them and they drop the donut and it lands like on its side.
(18:48):
Perfect. I mean, and that's the thing is like everything about this is corny, like it really, really is. And it's like not embarrassed about being corny.
And I think that's the best spot to be in. Yeah, it embraces it without like pandering in that sense of like, oh, yuck, yuck jokes.
But like they're silly jokes. They're silly script and good action throughout the whole thing, too.
(19:16):
Yeah, absolutely. No boat chases. No, sadly not. But maybe in a con air two, you know, let's kill two birds with one stone and do a con air face off a sequel to both Cameron Poe versus.
God, what was his name and face off? Are you talking about like when he was Archer or no, when he was Pollock's brother Pollock's Troy.
(19:43):
No, he's Castor Troy. Yeah, we got the Cameron Poe versus Castor Troy. Just I don't know why John Nick K. Jackson.
I know you watch the other the weird brother just like, yeah, man, he was super creepy. He's such a creep.
Oh, he belongs on Conair. Yeah. If you had to kiss one of the Troy brothers,
(20:08):
would you kiss Castor Troy who would obviously make you suck his tongue? Yeah.
Or would you kiss Pollock's Troy and then have to just clearly has never kissed anyone ever in his life.
Yeah. Like you have to help him tie his shoes and then you kiss him. But it has to be like a good kiss. Like no fake in it.
I like the enthusiasm of Castor. Yeah. Yeah.
(20:32):
He'll probably be able to check all your fillings and stuff to give you a full dental cleaning through a kiss.
What is it from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure or whatever that tongue juggling the cherries?
My favorite gif you mean? Yes. That's a good one. That is a great one.
It is just a terrifically dumb and fun movie. Well, let's table that one and let's move on to Red Rock West.
(20:59):
Yeah. So what did this go up against? What did it beat up? So this one.
What did it beat off the beat off the chart? The bracket. The bracket. Yeah.
Beat off the bracket. It beat Dying of the Light, a Paul Schrader movie that sucks.
And we understand Chris Coughel that it was taken away from him and he didn't get to make the movie he wanted.
(21:20):
But it still sucked no matter what. Yeah. Dumb fake ear. Terrible ear. Bad movie.
And then it went up against Stolen. Pretty fun. Also had Swamp Thing, which is great.
Got 11 MC Ganey no matter what. And then National Treasure is its most recent conquest. Yeah. Pretty good run.
I think this had the easiest approach to the Master Eight of the two, the easier of the two. Yeah.
(21:48):
Going up against Face Off was a juggernaut. I know National Treasure is, you know, highly regarded, but yeah.
But as far as tough guys go, he's not that tough. He's a he's a nerd. Yeah. He's a dork. Yeah.
Which is why he was my kind of hero. I felt it. I have representation.
(22:09):
Let's free associate. Oh, God. So get started on that again.
Don't worry about it, Sean. It's OK. So Red Rock West fucking rules. Yeah.
It's a really fun movie. I love this movie.
It's very well documented how much I love this movie at this point. Yeah.
(22:31):
Yeah. I I thought it was interesting, like similar to Con Air going back through our enthusiasm for the movie built every time.
So it's clearly one that we enjoy watching again and again and will continue to enjoy watching theoretically for the next three to four years and then lose interest like most things in our life.
(22:59):
Yep. We'll have a Willem Dafoe podcast at that point. Yeah.
Completely original idea. Yeah.
Oh, I do want to circle back to Chris Cawfel and the two by four. It's a two by four.
(23:20):
Two by four is like not a measurement of the length of the board.
I think that's where it was getting confused. Yeah.
Because I just sort of agreed to move on. But it's it's you know that shape. Yeah. It's like about that shape and then long. Yeah, exactly.
Good. I got that off my chest. OK, that's been bugging me all day. So I mean, OK, here's the question then. So Red Rock West. I mean, I think we both we we both we all agree that it's like a pretty well paced, well designed movie overall.
(23:53):
What do you think you would change to enhance it, whether that's a subtractive element or an additive element?
The only thing I would really want to change at this point, and it's more just a matter of my short attention span and just how movies have evolved like anything is just tighten it up a little bit.
But otherwise, narratively, I don't think it needs a huge change. I don't think there's much, you know, it doesn't have much fat on it to begin with.
(24:24):
I would just kind of cut out some of those like maybe some of those slower shots and some of that's the slower build to things. But other than that, I think it's a pretty well executed film.
I mean, maybe just a little bit of like like punch up on the script. I don't know. Maybe it could it could take a little bit of that, but I don't I don't even see where when I think about it.
(24:49):
I can't give you an example. Yeah, no, I mean, I know what you mean, though, like the script is kind of unremarkable. Yeah.
But I don't really know what you would add to it. I think for me, what I would change is not having Lara Flynn Boyle be the, you know, romantic recast of Lara Flynn Boyle would be fine.
(25:10):
She's just is real flat for me. And I think that it just doesn't work as well. Yeah, I don't know.
I think her like costuming and stuff to like the weird like a question.
Yeah, like weird like Boy Scout suit that she's got going on. Yeah. With the weird like puffy. Yeah. Yeah. The horsey girl stuff.
(25:31):
The horsey girl outfits. Yeah. Yeah. But it does mean that there is an equestrian statue because of it, which fucking rules. Yeah, I do love that. And the the flip side of that when Wayne or not Wayne Lyle just sucker punches Mike when he opens the door.
(25:52):
Mike Pike.
Oh, that was a real treat. I made you go back and watch that again so I could record it and send it to you. Perfect. I was very pleased by that.
Notice, I mean, the genre, the whole neo noir thing, it's it builds its tension. Well, it like it's it's not as fun to just yuck about as con areas just because Connors got so much like zany stuff, but it is just a solid film.
(26:23):
And then one thing that came up that I think it was with Chris Koffel that I can't get out of my head now is imagining this as a Cohen Brothers movie. Oh, yeah. With like the witty dialogue and kind of stuff that would come from that and like some of that zany energy versus some of that more the subdued energy that it actually brings.
And like, I don't know that that's a better movie. It's a very different movie, but it sounds fucking awesome. Sure. It's like if Weird Al did a parody song of the movie. Yeah, kind of like I want to say that the Weird Al polka version of Red Rock.
(26:59):
Like I would watch that and enjoy it, but still maybe prefer the original. Like that would be what I would go back to. But like, I kind of want to see that. I did come up with a script or a scene. Yeah, it's a script device that I think could have been done better because it always frustrates me when Laura Fonboyle and Nick Cage are in the office stealing wainers or opening up the safe to like steal the rest of the money from wainer.
(27:26):
And like Lyle shows up or whatever. So they're like stuffing everything back in the safe. Well, they're not. They just closed the safe and put the rug back over. And it's like, why didn't you put the fucking paperwork back in? You just left it out. Like it would have taken you no time. It was in your hands to just sweep it in. Yeah, true. It's a frustrating moment for me because it was just done for that purpose for Wayne to see.
(27:54):
And it's like, ah, so much of this movie, like I really enjoy. He tries to leave. He comes back. He tries to leave. He comes back. I enjoy that yo yo in where it kind of starts stops working for me as much is when he starts checking up with Laura Fonboyle. And like now they're going back to steal Wayne's money when just like you could have left. Yeah, bad choice. Yeah, bad choice. Like my suspension of disbelief is tested a bit.
(28:23):
More at that point. But then we get some of the best scenes like the chain trace and the train chase. I like chain trace. Chain trace. Love a good chain trace. So I mean, you know, a lot of it. Yeah, a lot of the script and a lot of the just scene to scene is more functional than it is. Well done. Like a yeah, like a tighter script like like an editor to to like feed that together a bit better would make this film. It does exist.
(28:52):
It does exist on a pretty simple premise. So to like try to deviate too much, I feel is a disservice to the fact that it is just a film. Yeah. And they need to tell the story that they are trying to tell. And sometimes you just have to, I guess, grin and bear it. But how much money did he wind up within the end? Do we know? Oh, it was one stack. Yeah. So like maybe a thousand bucks. Yeah, maybe.
(29:19):
Because there are three there are three cops in this town. If he would have just gone to the broken into the impound lot, gotten the money out of his car and just left town, he would have been so much better off. I like the concept of him just getting all those groceries at a gas station, though. Yeah, like just constantly walking things back up because there's no carts or anything. So it's like by the arm load, he fills a couple bags and then that gas attendance just like anything else.
(29:49):
It's like, yeah, twenty nine bucks on two or whatever it was all for him to. But is that when he runs over the boy toy? Yeah. Yeah. And then ends up. Yeah. Oh, the boy toy. Yeah. That poor fucker had a full tank of gas. All those groceries, undoubtedly like at least seven Twinkies to suck to.
(30:12):
And so I will say Mike is much more of a I mean, we're talking about like the every man like Cameron Poe is Nick Cage is kind of like surrogate character in or the audience surrogate in Conair while still being the every man like hero is a far more relatable character. Yeah, I feel. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I don't know.
(30:39):
I think when comparing the two in terms of just Nick Cage performance, I won't say that Red Rock West is the better performance, but it's definitely the better character. And that there is a character there.
Well, I think there's definitely a character to Cameron Poe. I think it's just dialed up. Yeah, it's it's caricature almost. Yeah.
(31:02):
And that like I don't care about Cameron Poe throughout any of that film, like I'm not interested in Cameron Poe's story.
I don't really care about Conair to like I know we joke about it, but I really wouldn't give a shit about Cameron Poe.
Whereas like the Michael, you know, we talked about it if they created a serialized version of this, you know, where there's multiple movies or multiple TV show episodes where it's just him going about different shitty weird podunk towns and solving problems and getting into messes like that. That's kind of interesting. Yeah.
(31:34):
But that's not what we've got.
That is not what we've got.
But your question is an interesting one, though. I think we can hit on that before we kind of get to the final debate. But performance wise, which movie do you perform? Do you prefer for Nick Cage's performance?
I prefer Conair. I feel like there is a character there that can be cared about. Clearly, everybody is allowed to care about their Nicholas Cage's in their own way.
(32:01):
You've got a veteran who has a history of hotheadedness, as you know, mentioned by his wife and everything in the beginning. He is trying to just settle down, have a life. He does everything right while in jail. He's a stand up honorable dude that, uh, he's a good guy.
(32:28):
He's a stand up honorable dude that, uh, is just trying to get home and just gets into, like, bad situations where he's then having to, like, either try to keep his head down. He's trying to protect Baby Oh and the people that he cares about along the way.
(32:51):
Ultimately, his, you know, honorable X Ranger mentality has to kind of force his hand into being the hero that he didn't want to be when he got onto the plane. He just wanted to go home. It's it's a character that I like in that role.
(33:13):
I mean, for that role, yeah, I just, I still don't care about Cameron Poe and that for me, that could be any action actor. Like, I don't feel that Nick Cage serves. I don't feel like that movie is necessarily better because of Nick Cage.
Whereas, like, Michael is, you know, down on his luck, down to his last dollar and is just trying to survive until the next day. It survived to the next town and just series of bad decisions. Just trying to do the right thing in that. I don't want this, you know, nice lady to get killed.
(33:50):
These are the same character.
I know I was going to say they're exactly the same. The military background, both trying to do the right thing. Michael is a little more selfish, but yeah, I'm more interested in just Michael's journey and just him struggling to survive as a character rather than just.
I mean, your whole setup for Nick Cage's character in Con Air was like the first five minutes of the movie. And then it doesn't matter. Then he just needs to be a tough guy.
(34:16):
But I mean, for both of these movies, it's all based on his charisma. Like the Nick Cage as an actor. It's like both characters work because of the different charisma that he presents. Very different for both of them. But the reason you give a shit about either one of them is because of who is playing him.
You know, it's like a different actor for either one of these, and I don't think it plays the same.
I've watched. I've watched Con Air four times. I cannot ever remember any of Nick Cage's scenes. I remember when around Nick Cage, I just I just find him. I just find it's such for me. Cameron Poe is just.
(34:49):
A black hole of personality.
All right, well, let's let's put you to the decision then do a little quick head to head on why you think one should go. I don't care which one of you goes first.
All in on Con Air for this. It is just as a whole a movie that I want to watch, and it's a movie that I would watch any time it elevates my feeling of joy.
(35:19):
Now, that's a terrible argument for this. I mean, like I said, it's got that script that is highly quotable. It it's fun. It's got like engaging performances all around.
I would argue that Nicolas Cage's performance is engaging. I like it. There's just things that I don't think you can find in a lot of film like there aren't films like Con Air.
(35:51):
Like it just doesn't work the same way that this film works. It's a tightness and it's a yeah, that's worth a little guffaw.
I know, but a childish.
I've always loved this movie and I'll continue to love this movie forever. I think it is the more deserving role because even though I think Red Rock West is a great movie that might only extend to like a B plus because of the movie on a whole.
(36:31):
Like it's good. I love watching it. I would recommend it to anybody. If I was talking to somebody and they're like, oh, I've never seen either of these movies. I'm like, well, in the greater zeitgeist of Nicolas Cage, you have to see Con Air.
And then go see Red Rock West as well. But if I'm talking to some kid who's dying of cancer and he's like, my my one failing in life is that I didn't watch enough Nicolas Cage films.
(37:05):
Watch pay. I'd be like, well, thank you for coming to me over this problem.
Yeah, for your make a wish foundation. Yeah. And you're trying to find the judges with this argument.
Then well, yeah, clearly. Then I would, you know, show the child Con Air and then kids love Con Air. It's true.
(37:31):
All right, Sean, what do you think?
This is a this is a tricky one, just because Con Air in terms of the larger work of Nick Cage is one of his most recognizable films.
I think it stands up much more based on the ancillary cast than it does Nick Cage.
It is very enjoyable. It's not something I can pay attention to for very long. Like I go in and out of that movie, even when I'm like watching it just because it is so disjointed.
(38:02):
The movie works in spite of itself a lot of the time because it had so much script rewrites. It's so herky jerky with tone and pacing.
Whereas Red Rock West script issues aside, it is a tighter story. It is a more focused story. I enjoy that a lot more. I enjoy I enjoy that genre a lot more myself, which is my own thing.
(38:32):
So for me, Con Air has much higher highs, but much lower lows where Red Rock West is a little more middling throughout, but is the more solid film.
Well, shit. So let's hear some thoughts, Peter.
Well, do you guys want to debate this more or do you want it to be that you are picking one of you ever ended well for either of us?
(39:00):
Yeah, that's a good point. I am pretty massively torn on this. Red Rock West is one of those movies that is kind of like this surprise gem.
Like it's obviously it's rated well. People who have seen it know that it rules and we got is one thing I did want to bring up that I did remember from you had your moment.
(39:23):
Remember that I was switching to Con Air, then I don't have to do this. No, that's one thing I did want to bring up, though, that we did talk about almost every time we talked about Red Rock West is along the way.
People who have learned that we were doing this have been like, but Red Rock West, right? Like it is an unknown gem, and I think it deserves a little more attention brought to it. Yeah, and we have that power.
(39:46):
And we do have that power. Well, I think that's the thing that that's kind of standing out to me. And again, you know, this has been a moving target for us forever with this podcast of like what movies deserve to go on what movies are moving forward for what reason?
And we change it constantly, you know, Con Air is stupid. It's a little overlong, and it's absurd, but it's exactly what it is trying to be. And that's great. Red Rock West is more ponderous. It's, you know, very peaceful in a way, even though it has its high moments of energy and, you know, wildness from Dennis Hopper.
(40:26):
It's just very different vibes between the two. I think everyone should watch both of these movies. Certainly. I think Red Rock West is the secret gem in this, you know, experiment.
Man, I'm really stuck on this because I do think that there's some merit to saying, because it's like what movie should someone watch if they've never seen a Nick Cage movie or they've only got a chance to watch for Nick Cage movies or something like that.
(40:52):
It's like you want to give them a spectrum of different things. And I think the performance and wildness of Con Air is more entertaining, even though I like it less as a movie.
Fucking balls.
We can take a hand job break if you need. Yeah, I need post not clarity. Right.
(41:13):
Oh, man.
No, I mean, you know what? You're not wrong. I don't think Con Air is a bad film. If the metric is which Nick Cage movie should someone see if you needed to be like, that's Nick Cage. Con Air is arguably the right choice.
(41:34):
I just again, just for me, it's like he is the least interesting part of Con Air, which is why I'm struggling with this.
Yeah, I think that's that's where maybe I diverged from you a little bit, because I think that he is even if he's that audience surrogate, he's such like a weird character audience surrogate that he still stands out to me, even though he's not technically important.
(41:56):
And like everybody that stands out more are the bad guys. You know, it's like he's just carrying it along.
But it's because of that charisma that I was talking about earlier, like he's such a weird, charming, idiot hillbilly nice guy. Like, I don't know. There's like, that's my purse.
It's like a true likeability to him. You know, the hair blowing in the wind, the smile, the wink, like everything about it is just like so over the top that like if he weren't dialed up to 11, I think you're right.
(42:32):
I think Sean that he would be completely gone. Like it would be just an imagine. Like anybody could fill that void. But I think that it is important that it's Nick Cage and it is a really, really interesting, weird performance for him because it is solely based on charisma and being super jacked.
I think I got to go with Con Air. I but everybody should watch Red Rock West. It's great.
(42:56):
Dennis Hopper rules, Nick Cage rules, Laura Flynn Boyle sucks.
I'm proud of that. I know you had this so decided. It sounded like a month ago. And but I mean, I've done the exact same thing on a few films. Yeah.
I mean, Con Air is a weird hokey piece of shit, but I love it. Well, you're going to go home watching it again. Watching it again. You know, it's like, this is fun.
(43:22):
This is fun. Stupid fun. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's my decision.
Yay. Welcome to the Master Eight. I.E. we're going to make Peter decide every one of these. Every single one is my choice.
No, there will be some some. I have a feeling you guys will have a quorum on this at some point. It's only four episodes.
(43:46):
Yeah, I think comedy we're going to pretty much align.
And I mean, the fucking weird category is going to be interesting. So for everyone who's listening, we've got Moonstruck and Raising Arizona up against each other in comedy.
Pig and Joe in Sirius and then fucking weird. We've got Wild at Heart and Vampire's Kiss. So this could be me deciding four episodes.
(44:07):
Please don't do that to me. It means you'd have to actually start watching the movies again.
I just want to keep sending Mandy through to keep making you. And you did that to yourself. I know.
Well, technically, you did it to your wife. That's true.
You know, I think we I think we pretty much nailed it.
(44:28):
We came through this together and we found the right decision.
But as a team, not.
Not that it's a competition or anything, but this is still one of the most interesting.
Not that it's a competition or anything, but this is still one one chalked up for me. I'm going to write that on your wall.
Please don't write on my wall.
(44:50):
I just I feel like we I just felt like we'd be doing Red Rock West of Disservice if I didn't like give it a solid.
No, it definitely deserves to be in the conversation.
It you know, it made it here on its own legs like it earned a spot in the like final action film conversation.
(45:11):
And that's big because it beat out like it got further than the rock face off.
National treasure, national treasure gone in 60 seconds. Like there's a ton of movies.
Yeah, I will say given his prevalence as action action guy in the 90s, a lot of his action movies aren't the best.
Totally agree.
(45:33):
No, I mean, action movies in general aren't the best.
If you want to see like somebody's acting skills and action movies, not where you want to do it.
I'm just not even sure. It shares the same first three letters.
First four.
First four. There's a universe out there somewhere where Nick Cage starred in True Lies.
And I feel like we're in the worst universe for not having existed.
(45:56):
That would be amazing.
If you want to follow us on social media, you can find us at Cage match pod cage underscore match underscore pod or on Patreon if you want to support us.
Thank you to our sparkle buddies, Josh, Sean, Josie, Rico, Matt, Adam and Bill and to our cage dancers, Ira, John Freeman, Lance, Nathan and Cameron.
We really appreciate the support. And yeah, feel free to tell me that I'm wrong and dumb for the next four episodes.
(46:21):
I would never let Adam.
Thank you. Yell at your neighbor. I know. Come at me, Clem.
It's interesting going back and listening to all our like things that stuck for a little bit of time.
We were trying to.
Speaking of all that, man, I was really like going back and listening to these episodes, very disappointed that we never got the porn hub thing rolling.
(46:44):
I tried. They wouldn't let me like submit like videos and stuff.
Yeah, you gave it a good thrust. I should have like sent them an email with a picture of my butthole.
You know, weirdly enough, probably the appropriate time to send such an email.
Hey, please let me post on your website.
Here's my brown star. Yep.
(47:05):
And that's where we'll leave it. Bye bye.
Wait, what's on that? What's on your beer? Koozie Nick?
Oh, this is my. Oh, hey.
(47:28):
Yeah, appropriate. It's my Cameron Poe.
Nicholas Cage.
Koozie. For a second, I was just because of the graininess of discord.
I just saw like the hair and like a blurry face.
I'm like, why is Peter's wife's face?
Oh, yeah, we all got those the other way.
Sorry. Yours is in the mail.
(47:52):
Is it along with my Christmas gift, Peter?
Well, at some point I will.
I've actually at this point, I'm just hanging on to that gift until you're here.
All right. I'll see you in a couple of months then.
Oh god.
(00:03):
Oh my god.
Fuck!
Well, unfortunately I'll make it because fucking Spidey will keep me young.
(00:27):
Yeah, there you go. And you don't need hot pockets like a real asshole.
Hey, hot pockets are full of preservatives. That's what keeps us going.
That's right. Yeah. From inside out, baby.
Twenty years of hard drinking and 35 years of like daily Twinkies.
I'm pretty sure my insides are completely just like...
I thought you were going to go for the rhyme on that. Sorry.
(00:49):
Twenty years of hard drinking, five years of hard twinking.
No, not yet.
Only five years of Twinkies? Oh, well, you're at your double Twinkie days.
Thirty five years of Twinkies.
Oh, okay. Thirty five years of hard Twinkies.
Which counts as seventy, right? Yeah.
(01:10):
Seventy years of hard Twinkies.
Single father. You know, that was my breakfast.
It makes sense.
A packet of Twinkies thrown at me in the morning.
It's got everything you need. It's got like grain elements.
Some sort of dairy ish element in the cream filling.
Yeah. Oh, God.
Going back and listening to our Con Air versus Ghost Rider episode.
(01:35):
Oh, yeah. The term suck tube that Twinkie.
Yeah. I did listen to enough of that episode to remember suck tubing.
I know. I think immediately I chastise you. I said, don't say suck tube.
It's like, no, you should suck tube.
It's a great term.
Yeah, it was really interesting going back and listening to ourselves.
(01:59):
I didn't hate it as much as I thought I was going to.
Yeah, I think I had been prepared for disappointment over the last two years that going back to it wasn't so bad.
Yeah. Not not that I was surprised by it, but I think the thing that stood out to me about myself is that I really hate long movies.
And I talk about it a lot.
(02:20):
You have the most like familial responsibility.
And plus editing takes time and all that kind of stuff.
So yeah. So I guess that means your opinion means less in this.
Sure. Yeah. Why not? You're biased.
That's true. I've heard it more. Yeah.
(02:41):
Also, we did offer you the official title of host and you turned it down.
So you dug your own grave there. It's true.
That's a good point. Was that that was a critique I got early on in this podcast.
He's like, Peter should be a host. I'm like, he likes the term producer.
What can I tell you? Yeah, there's already two hosts.
Yeah. Don't you just get lost in the. Yeah. Lost in the storm. No, no, I'm different.
(03:06):
I have a different IMDB credit than you guys.
IMDB. I'm actually glad we stopped doing that because if I had gotten too big and too powerful,
I would have had to go move to Hollywood and then I would have been involved in all the palisades.
I would have been involved involved in the word there.
(03:27):
I would have been out there like with a fan creating more wind.
Santa Ana winds. Look at me.
So is this still cage match, colon around about way of meeting Nicolas Cage?
Debatable. But yes. Well, in that case, I'm your host, Sean, here with my co-host Nick and our producer.
(03:48):
Peter, hello. When we started this podcast, we took 64 Nicolas Cage movies, bracketed them down
into different categories. Genre. That's the word I'm thinking of.
You can edit this to make sense. We take two movies each week and have through process of elimination,
got it down to the final eight. Yeah. Welcome to the master eight.
(04:14):
Yeah. Master eight with us, folks. Still stupid and still makes me laugh.
So this will be the final match up of the action genre with our top two contenders,
Con Air and Red Rock West. Is that right?
(04:36):
Did I prepare for the did I prepare correctly for the room this week?
What we ended up doing is listening to a little bit of our back catalog recordings of ourselves, you know,
to try and get a little idea of how we got to this point.
Some of these movies are really obvious why they would make it here.
I mean, it kind of makes sense that they're great movies.
But, you know, our decision making along the way has had some spotty Ness and it's kind of nice to some spot on Ness.
(05:00):
Spot on Ness. It was nice to kind of review that.
So going back and the one that I really enjoyed was listening to with Chris Koffel talking about Ghost Rider
and Con Air. I think we fucked our ghost writer spirit of on John's.
I think we fucked that one up. Ghost Rider just sounds more fun.
No, I think we got it just right. Yeah.
(05:21):
Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance was an enjoyable film, but in no way deserved to join the master.
It was a great movie. I mean, I think back on that movie relatively often it does have suck tubing,
which, you know, plus two points for that. But I just can't see it in this this collection of great movies that we've got right now.
(05:46):
Sorry, Vengeance. But yeah, I mean, on the way to these movies, you know, Con Air took out Rage, which sucked.
Which one was that again? That was the that's the one where he like the daughter was partying with the other kids.
Right. Someone gets shot. She got shot. Yeah. Yeah. With his gun or something.
(06:08):
And then the kids are all like, oh, no, some dudes broken in a home invasion and they shot your daughter or some shit like that.
And then he puts on his crime jacket. Oh, yeah. And remember, then it's got old iron sides. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Wheelchair. And this is starting to sound familiar. Was this the first crime jacket? Is this when we started crime jackets?
(06:33):
Yeah, I believe this is our first conversation about crime, crime time and crime jackets and criminals,
because we did end up talking about it more with Gone In 60 Seconds, because he also has a crime jacket. Yes.
Does he have a crime? He has a crime jacket and stolen as well. He does. Yeah. Notably stolen, beaten by Red Rock West.
Yeah. So Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance, Fon Johnce and Face Off as well, which is probably our most contentious piece of the Con Air journey to hear.
(07:01):
No, not at all. We got that one spot on. Well, you were actually pushing for Face Off in in that recording, which I don't disagree with you.
I mean, Gary and Rocks had a good argument for it, but there is something about Con Air that just like is more rewatchable.
I don't know. I just I would just really I just listened to that episode this morning.
(07:22):
No, Shay made a great point when talking about Con Air and saying how like also rewatching Face Off fell asleep during Face Off.
It's just it's it's not as frenetic and isn't as fun. Yeah. Face Off has pacing issues.
Con Air is just stupid fun. I mean, that's the thing. It's like Face Off actually at multiple points is just stupid.
(07:49):
Yeah. Con Air is just a lot of fun. I really like it. It's idiotic. Yeah. Great hair.
Terrific hair. Some of the best. Bangin' body. Yeah. Nice pair of jeans. Yeah, right.
I know the poster art that I sent you. He's got a very trim waist there. Yeah. He must be wearing like a size 30.
These are two hot cages between Con Air and Red Rock West. Yeah. Good looks.
(08:13):
This is this was him at some of his I think strongest both times like beefiest bod.
No one on push ups in Con Air, but he did that finger thing where he like was holding himself up. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Just pull ups and stuff. Highly impressive. Yeah. And he did origami.
How was Con Air on round four? I'm not going to lie.
(08:38):
I was excited like before I even knew which movie Josie was putting in.
I was excited to think that it was going to be Con Air and then it was Con Air.
And I was just that movie just holds my attention.
I love the silly accent. I love just everything like from the bunny. The how do I live without you?
(09:08):
It's so good. I'm enraptured when that movie comes on.
It's got it holds so much for me. All the little jokes. At this point, I'm like saying the lines with it.
It's become my Rocky Horror Picture Show where I am just part of the film as I watch it.
Oh, this would be such a fun movie for a midnight showing. This would be terrific.
(09:32):
Yeah. You could have everyone show up as a different convict.
Anyone who shows up is Danny Trejo's character gets immediately sent to jail. Yeah. Yep.
It's just it's a room full of Garland Green's. Yeah. Bug eyed fucking weirdos.
(09:54):
Yeah, there's just something about that movie. I mean, it's it's so over the top.
I mean, it is it's kind of like just turning it up to 11.
Like everything is just absolutely absurd.
And again, I don't want it to be two and a half hours long or whatever it is almost.
But it's an hour and 50 minutes. It's only like four and a half hours longer than Red Rock.
All right. All right. Yeah.
(10:17):
Arguably, the only way to bring it down to an hour and a half is to cut Colmini's character completely, which I do think you could do.
But the plot like the movie would suffer from it would suffer from it. Yeah.
But it's the only thing you could take out that wouldn't have like other ramifications.
Yeah. No one's taken away my Dave Chappelle corpse. I know.
(10:42):
I mean, you could take out like I think Peter said this last time.
You could take out the whole airstrip, the airfield thing. Yeah.
We needed something other than the airplane, I think.
And right. It's a good stopover before they get back on the airplane.
And once you get to have the creepy scene with Garland Green. Yeah.
You wouldn't have that otherwise. Exactly.
(11:03):
Otherwise, he's just creeping on people on the plane.
It's a moment of heightened tension for his character.
Both of these films really are more ensemble pieces like in neither of these films, I feel, is like Nick Cage, the focal performance, like the most interesting and out there performance.
He's pretty sedate as his character in each role, but he's got such good foils like we have Cyrus the virus in Conair.
(11:31):
And then we have President Cooper in Red Rock West. Lyle Lyle from Texas.
So you have like these big over the top, almost comically, cartoonishly so villains against Cage.
And I like I find it interesting that for the top two action films, we picked two of Nick Cage's more calmer characters.
(11:56):
Yeah, it's kind of interesting, though, looking at his action roles.
He's rarely like an extreme badass or anything.
I mean, he is a badass in these, but he's also sort of just like the driving force for the story, which is interesting.
You know, Connors, sorry, face off was sort of an exception where he's like wild.
(12:17):
But like a lot of these, he's just sort of like a dude. Yeah. More of an everyman.
I mean, there's a lot of these action hero dudes who will be like everything is about them being invincible, basically.
And he's not I mean, in either of these, particularly not Red Rock West. Yeah.
Well, I don't know. In Conair, he does like have that scene where he's like marching forward and he gets shot and just like keeps going.
(12:44):
He's like, I can still do this. I can take him down. That's a good point.
I forgot about that. He has a he has that like superhero moment for himself.
Well, I think it comes down to for the genre of just action films, the whole thing that sets the plot in motion, the whole thing that drives the movie forward is always going to be the villain because they're the one actually trying to get something done.
Yeah. The hero is just there to stop them.
(13:07):
So like the villains always going to be the most interesting part.
At least the largest performative part. Yes. Would be the villain. Yeah.
It's interesting kind of thinking about his voice acting in this and Red Rock West.
It's like Red Rock West is sort of like a proto voice for Conair. It's like a little bit southern, but not quite.
(13:29):
He like hadn't quite kicked to the tires enough.
And then Conair, he went real far.
He went real Alabama. Real Alabama.
Yeah, I liked it. I mean, you know, even the the corniness of the voice.
I think it lends its own charm to the performance.
But you just personally, I get into it.
(13:53):
Oh, yeah. I like listening.
It makes. Yeah. Lines like that.
Just so much better. Oh, God, it's so stupid. It's fantastic.
What do you think your favorite part of Conair is favorite part like a specific like a whole scene or?
Yeah, it could be a scene or it could just be like, what's the reason this movie works for you and you like it?
(14:19):
Cyrus the virus. Just that performance like that.
Just I mean, I did want to talk about this kind of when we were kind of getting more head to head and kind of starting to make an actual case.
But it'll fit here.
When we were discussing these movies the last two times, when we kept talking about things we loved about these films and like the scenes that stood out to us,
(14:40):
most of the scenes didn't have Nick Cage in them.
Like most of like the stuff that we talked about as like our favorite scenes and our most enjoyable moments were largely centered around the other characters.
And they weren't so much like Nick Cage scenes.
It was the scene in the prison where like the door like goes flying or Cyrus's, you know, one of Cyrus's speeches or something.
(15:06):
Yeah, I could see how in a sense of that, like Nick Cage, his role in the film is more of like a reaction role.
Like he's watching, he's seen, he's in the background or on the side of like this action or whatever.
And through the movie up until the like real heavy action moments, he is performing the part of like, I don't know, sort of like the audience.
(15:35):
Like seeing this and giving voice to what the audience would be like thinking like, what the fuck's up with this guy?
I don't know. But a lot. My take on that is like he performs the role of the audience's voice in the film.
I think my favorite part of Con Air is the script, honestly, just all the like there's so many little jokes and there's just good one liners throughout the whole thing.
(16:03):
And it's it's fun to say them and it's fun to say them to each other or like to coworkers.
Yeah. I mean, Sean, you pointed out last time it's like that script was getting rewritten constantly to it's like that's what makes it even more impressive that they came out with something that is memorable.
You know, because a lot of those stories where you have a script getting rewritten every day, it's like, oh, that movie sucks.
(16:26):
Yeah, I think this exists in like a magical place where it's like you don't need to have strong ties scene to scene so it can be rewritten.
Like we're on a pretty static set piece with, you know, ancillary stuff for like combini and John Cusack.
John Cusack. Thank you. Existing on dirt.
(16:48):
Birkenstock wearing motherfucker.
And their scenes, you know, don't have to tie super directly onto the airplane and everything on the airplane could be set up almost like vignettes.
So long as you get to the ending of the movie, this movie really works solely based on when it came out.
(17:09):
Like if that movie came out now, as is, it would be torn apart.
It would not. It would be like just thought of as terrible.
I think coming out pre Internet before, like, you know, armchair critics like ourselves were there to like tell everyone was terrible.
You didn't have, you know, streaming. You had like it was a big dumb popcorn movie and it became a bit of a cult hit.
(17:33):
And, you know, we all loved it. And we now like, oh, we have it whenever we can watch.
We come back to it. But I don't think that this works in a content as a contemporary film and only works because, you know, we still love it from what you know, originally engaged with it.
I will point out that Fast and Furious movies gross over a billion dollars every time.
(17:58):
And they are considerably worse than this spiritual successors to this in concept.
I think we did talk about that, like those are the only films that kind of still exist.
It's possible. Yeah. I mean, I will always take a chance to talk about Fast and Furious movies to Ross back.
Yeah, come on. OK, so one of the pieces, one of the pieces of this movie that I've come around on because I used to think it was really stupid firetruck.
(18:24):
OK. And the Smasher. Yeah.
That ending, it's a great little like escalation every time that I think it's intentional. Oh, absolutely.
Them hopping on the fucking motorcycles. The first time I saw it, I was like, dumb.
Second time I saw it, I was like, corny. Now I'm like, yeah, fuck. Yeah. Yeah. You get the other cops that follow them and they drop the donut and it lands like on its side.
(18:48):
Perfect. I mean, and that's the thing is like everything about this is corny, like it really, really is. And it's like not embarrassed about being corny.
And I think that's the best spot to be in. Yeah, it embraces it without like pandering in that sense of like, oh, yuck, yuck jokes.
But like they're silly jokes. They're silly script and good action throughout the whole thing, too.
(19:16):
Yeah, absolutely. No boat chases. No, sadly not. But maybe in a con air two, you know, let's kill two birds with one stone and do a con air face off a sequel to both Cameron Poe versus.
God, what was his name and face off? Are you talking about like when he was Archer or no, when he was Pollock's brother Pollock's Troy.
(19:43):
No, he's Castor Troy. Yeah, we got the Cameron Poe versus Castor Troy. Just I don't know why John Nick K. Jackson.
I know you watch the other the weird brother just like, yeah, man, he was super creepy. He's such a creep.
Oh, he belongs on Conair. Yeah. If you had to kiss one of the Troy brothers,
(20:08):
would you kiss Castor Troy who would obviously make you suck his tongue? Yeah.
Or would you kiss Pollock's Troy and then have to just clearly has never kissed anyone ever in his life.
Yeah. Like you have to help him tie his shoes and then you kiss him. But it has to be like a good kiss. Like no fake in it.
I like the enthusiasm of Castor. Yeah. Yeah.
(20:32):
He'll probably be able to check all your fillings and stuff to give you a full dental cleaning through a kiss.
What is it from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure or whatever that tongue juggling the cherries?
My favorite gif you mean? Yes. That's a good one. That is a great one.
It is just a terrifically dumb and fun movie. Well, let's table that one and let's move on to Red Rock West.
(20:59):
Yeah. So what did this go up against? What did it beat up? So this one.
What did it beat off the beat off the chart? The bracket. The bracket. Yeah.
Beat off the bracket. It beat Dying of the Light, a Paul Schrader movie that sucks.
And we understand Chris Coughel that it was taken away from him and he didn't get to make the movie he wanted.
(21:20):
But it still sucked no matter what. Yeah. Dumb fake ear. Terrible ear. Bad movie.
And then it went up against Stolen. Pretty fun. Also had Swamp Thing, which is great.
Got 11 MC Ganey no matter what. And then National Treasure is its most recent conquest. Yeah. Pretty good run.
I think this had the easiest approach to the Master Eight of the two, the easier of the two. Yeah.
(21:48):
Going up against Face Off was a juggernaut. I know National Treasure is, you know, highly regarded, but yeah.
But as far as tough guys go, he's not that tough. He's a he's a nerd. Yeah. He's a dork. Yeah.
Which is why he was my kind of hero. I felt it. I have representation.
(22:09):
Let's free associate. Oh, God. So get started on that again.
Don't worry about it, Sean. It's OK. So Red Rock West fucking rules. Yeah.
It's a really fun movie. I love this movie.
It's very well documented how much I love this movie at this point. Yeah.
(22:31):
Yeah. I I thought it was interesting, like similar to Con Air going back through our enthusiasm for the movie built every time.
So it's clearly one that we enjoy watching again and again and will continue to enjoy watching theoretically for the next three to four years and then lose interest like most things in our life.
(22:59):
Yep. We'll have a Willem Dafoe podcast at that point. Yeah.
Completely original idea. Yeah.
Oh, I do want to circle back to Chris Cawfel and the two by four. It's a two by four.
(23:20):
Two by four is like not a measurement of the length of the board.
I think that's where it was getting confused. Yeah.
Because I just sort of agreed to move on. But it's it's you know that shape. Yeah. It's like about that shape and then long. Yeah, exactly.
Good. I got that off my chest. OK, that's been bugging me all day. So I mean, OK, here's the question then. So Red Rock West. I mean, I think we both we we both we all agree that it's like a pretty well paced, well designed movie overall.
(23:53):
What do you think you would change to enhance it, whether that's a subtractive element or an additive element?
The only thing I would really want to change at this point, and it's more just a matter of my short attention span and just how movies have evolved like anything is just tighten it up a little bit.
But otherwise, narratively, I don't think it needs a huge change. I don't think there's much, you know, it doesn't have much fat on it to begin with.
(24:24):
I would just kind of cut out some of those like maybe some of those slower shots and some of that's the slower build to things. But other than that, I think it's a pretty well executed film.
I mean, maybe just a little bit of like like punch up on the script. I don't know. Maybe it could it could take a little bit of that, but I don't I don't even see where when I think about it.
(24:49):
I can't give you an example. Yeah, no, I mean, I know what you mean, though, like the script is kind of unremarkable. Yeah.
But I don't really know what you would add to it. I think for me, what I would change is not having Lara Flynn Boyle be the, you know, romantic recast of Lara Flynn Boyle would be fine.
(25:10):
She's just is real flat for me. And I think that it just doesn't work as well. Yeah, I don't know.
I think her like costuming and stuff to like the weird like a question.
Yeah, like weird like Boy Scout suit that she's got going on. Yeah. With the weird like puffy. Yeah. Yeah. The horsey girl stuff.
(25:31):
The horsey girl outfits. Yeah. Yeah. But it does mean that there is an equestrian statue because of it, which fucking rules. Yeah, I do love that. And the the flip side of that when Wayne or not Wayne Lyle just sucker punches Mike when he opens the door.
(25:52):
Mike Pike.
Oh, that was a real treat. I made you go back and watch that again so I could record it and send it to you. Perfect. I was very pleased by that.
Notice, I mean, the genre, the whole neo noir thing, it's it builds its tension. Well, it like it's it's not as fun to just yuck about as con areas just because Connors got so much like zany stuff, but it is just a solid film.
(26:23):
And then one thing that came up that I think it was with Chris Koffel that I can't get out of my head now is imagining this as a Cohen Brothers movie. Oh, yeah. With like the witty dialogue and kind of stuff that would come from that and like some of that zany energy versus some of that more the subdued energy that it actually brings.
And like, I don't know that that's a better movie. It's a very different movie, but it sounds fucking awesome. Sure. It's like if Weird Al did a parody song of the movie. Yeah, kind of like I want to say that the Weird Al polka version of Red Rock.
(26:59):
Like I would watch that and enjoy it, but still maybe prefer the original. Like that would be what I would go back to. But like, I kind of want to see that. I did come up with a script or a scene. Yeah, it's a script device that I think could have been done better because it always frustrates me when Laura Fonboyle and Nick Cage are in the office stealing wainers or opening up the safe to like steal the rest of the money from wainer.
(27:26):
And like Lyle shows up or whatever. So they're like stuffing everything back in the safe. Well, they're not. They just closed the safe and put the rug back over. And it's like, why didn't you put the fucking paperwork back in? You just left it out. Like it would have taken you no time. It was in your hands to just sweep it in. Yeah, true. It's a frustrating moment for me because it was just done for that purpose for Wayne to see.
(27:54):
And it's like, ah, so much of this movie, like I really enjoy. He tries to leave. He comes back. He tries to leave. He comes back. I enjoy that yo yo in where it kind of starts stops working for me as much is when he starts checking up with Laura Fonboyle. And like now they're going back to steal Wayne's money when just like you could have left. Yeah, bad choice. Yeah, bad choice. Like my suspension of disbelief is tested a bit.
(28:23):
More at that point. But then we get some of the best scenes like the chain trace and the train chase. I like chain trace. Chain trace. Love a good chain trace. So I mean, you know, a lot of it. Yeah, a lot of the script and a lot of the just scene to scene is more functional than it is. Well done. Like a yeah, like a tighter script like like an editor to to like feed that together a bit better would make this film. It does exist.
(28:52):
It does exist on a pretty simple premise. So to like try to deviate too much, I feel is a disservice to the fact that it is just a film. Yeah. And they need to tell the story that they are trying to tell. And sometimes you just have to, I guess, grin and bear it. But how much money did he wind up within the end? Do we know? Oh, it was one stack. Yeah. So like maybe a thousand bucks. Yeah, maybe.
(29:19):
Because there are three there are three cops in this town. If he would have just gone to the broken into the impound lot, gotten the money out of his car and just left town, he would have been so much better off. I like the concept of him just getting all those groceries at a gas station, though. Yeah, like just constantly walking things back up because there's no carts or anything. So it's like by the arm load, he fills a couple bags and then that gas attendance just like anything else.
(29:49):
It's like, yeah, twenty nine bucks on two or whatever it was all for him to. But is that when he runs over the boy toy? Yeah. Yeah. And then ends up. Yeah. Oh, the boy toy. Yeah. That poor fucker had a full tank of gas. All those groceries, undoubtedly like at least seven Twinkies to suck to.
(30:12):
And so I will say Mike is much more of a I mean, we're talking about like the every man like Cameron Poe is Nick Cage is kind of like surrogate character in or the audience surrogate in Conair while still being the every man like hero is a far more relatable character. Yeah, I feel. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I don't know.
(30:39):
I think when comparing the two in terms of just Nick Cage performance, I won't say that Red Rock West is the better performance, but it's definitely the better character. And that there is a character there.
Well, I think there's definitely a character to Cameron Poe. I think it's just dialed up. Yeah, it's it's caricature almost. Yeah.
(31:02):
And that like I don't care about Cameron Poe throughout any of that film, like I'm not interested in Cameron Poe's story.
I don't really care about Conair to like I know we joke about it, but I really wouldn't give a shit about Cameron Poe.
Whereas like the Michael, you know, we talked about it if they created a serialized version of this, you know, where there's multiple movies or multiple TV show episodes where it's just him going about different shitty weird podunk towns and solving problems and getting into messes like that. That's kind of interesting. Yeah.
(31:34):
But that's not what we've got.
That is not what we've got.
But your question is an interesting one, though. I think we can hit on that before we kind of get to the final debate. But performance wise, which movie do you perform? Do you prefer for Nick Cage's performance?
I prefer Conair. I feel like there is a character there that can be cared about. Clearly, everybody is allowed to care about their Nicholas Cage's in their own way.
(32:01):
You've got a veteran who has a history of hotheadedness, as you know, mentioned by his wife and everything in the beginning. He is trying to just settle down, have a life. He does everything right while in jail. He's a stand up honorable dude that, uh, he's a good guy.
(32:28):
He's a stand up honorable dude that, uh, is just trying to get home and just gets into, like, bad situations where he's then having to, like, either try to keep his head down. He's trying to protect Baby Oh and the people that he cares about along the way.
(32:51):
Ultimately, his, you know, honorable X Ranger mentality has to kind of force his hand into being the hero that he didn't want to be when he got onto the plane. He just wanted to go home. It's it's a character that I like in that role.
(33:13):
I mean, for that role, yeah, I just, I still don't care about Cameron Poe and that for me, that could be any action actor. Like, I don't feel that Nick Cage serves. I don't feel like that movie is necessarily better because of Nick Cage.
Whereas, like, Michael is, you know, down on his luck, down to his last dollar and is just trying to survive until the next day. It survived to the next town and just series of bad decisions. Just trying to do the right thing in that. I don't want this, you know, nice lady to get killed.
(33:50):
These are the same character.
I know I was going to say they're exactly the same. The military background, both trying to do the right thing. Michael is a little more selfish, but yeah, I'm more interested in just Michael's journey and just him struggling to survive as a character rather than just.
I mean, your whole setup for Nick Cage's character in Con Air was like the first five minutes of the movie. And then it doesn't matter. Then he just needs to be a tough guy.
(34:16):
But I mean, for both of these movies, it's all based on his charisma. Like the Nick Cage as an actor. It's like both characters work because of the different charisma that he presents. Very different for both of them. But the reason you give a shit about either one of them is because of who is playing him.
You know, it's like a different actor for either one of these, and I don't think it plays the same.
I've watched. I've watched Con Air four times. I cannot ever remember any of Nick Cage's scenes. I remember when around Nick Cage, I just I just find him. I just find it's such for me. Cameron Poe is just.
(34:49):
A black hole of personality.
All right, well, let's let's put you to the decision then do a little quick head to head on why you think one should go. I don't care which one of you goes first.
All in on Con Air for this. It is just as a whole a movie that I want to watch, and it's a movie that I would watch any time it elevates my feeling of joy.
(35:19):
Now, that's a terrible argument for this. I mean, like I said, it's got that script that is highly quotable. It it's fun. It's got like engaging performances all around.
I would argue that Nicolas Cage's performance is engaging. I like it. There's just things that I don't think you can find in a lot of film like there aren't films like Con Air.
(35:51):
Like it just doesn't work the same way that this film works. It's a tightness and it's a yeah, that's worth a little guffaw.
I know, but a childish.
I've always loved this movie and I'll continue to love this movie forever. I think it is the more deserving role because even though I think Red Rock West is a great movie that might only extend to like a B plus because of the movie on a whole.
(36:31):
Like it's good. I love watching it. I would recommend it to anybody. If I was talking to somebody and they're like, oh, I've never seen either of these movies. I'm like, well, in the greater zeitgeist of Nicolas Cage, you have to see Con Air.
And then go see Red Rock West as well. But if I'm talking to some kid who's dying of cancer and he's like, my my one failing in life is that I didn't watch enough Nicolas Cage films.
(37:05):
Watch pay. I'd be like, well, thank you for coming to me over this problem.
Yeah, for your make a wish foundation. Yeah. And you're trying to find the judges with this argument.
Then well, yeah, clearly. Then I would, you know, show the child Con Air and then kids love Con Air. It's true.
(37:31):
All right, Sean, what do you think?
This is a this is a tricky one, just because Con Air in terms of the larger work of Nick Cage is one of his most recognizable films.
I think it stands up much more based on the ancillary cast than it does Nick Cage.
It is very enjoyable. It's not something I can pay attention to for very long. Like I go in and out of that movie, even when I'm like watching it just because it is so disjointed.
(38:02):
The movie works in spite of itself a lot of the time because it had so much script rewrites. It's so herky jerky with tone and pacing.
Whereas Red Rock West script issues aside, it is a tighter story. It is a more focused story. I enjoy that a lot more. I enjoy I enjoy that genre a lot more myself, which is my own thing.
(38:32):
So for me, Con Air has much higher highs, but much lower lows where Red Rock West is a little more middling throughout, but is the more solid film.
Well, shit. So let's hear some thoughts, Peter.
Well, do you guys want to debate this more or do you want it to be that you are picking one of you ever ended well for either of us?
(39:00):
Yeah, that's a good point. I am pretty massively torn on this. Red Rock West is one of those movies that is kind of like this surprise gem.
Like it's obviously it's rated well. People who have seen it know that it rules and we got is one thing I did want to bring up that I did remember from you had your moment.
(39:23):
Remember that I was switching to Con Air, then I don't have to do this. No, that's one thing I did want to bring up, though, that we did talk about almost every time we talked about Red Rock West is along the way.
People who have learned that we were doing this have been like, but Red Rock West, right? Like it is an unknown gem, and I think it deserves a little more attention brought to it. Yeah, and we have that power.
(39:46):
And we do have that power. Well, I think that's the thing that that's kind of standing out to me. And again, you know, this has been a moving target for us forever with this podcast of like what movies deserve to go on what movies are moving forward for what reason?
And we change it constantly, you know, Con Air is stupid. It's a little overlong, and it's absurd, but it's exactly what it is trying to be. And that's great. Red Rock West is more ponderous. It's, you know, very peaceful in a way, even though it has its high moments of energy and, you know, wildness from Dennis Hopper.
(40:26):
It's just very different vibes between the two. I think everyone should watch both of these movies. Certainly. I think Red Rock West is the secret gem in this, you know, experiment.
Man, I'm really stuck on this because I do think that there's some merit to saying, because it's like what movie should someone watch if they've never seen a Nick Cage movie or they've only got a chance to watch for Nick Cage movies or something like that.
(40:52):
It's like you want to give them a spectrum of different things. And I think the performance and wildness of Con Air is more entertaining, even though I like it less as a movie.
Fucking balls.
We can take a hand job break if you need. Yeah, I need post not clarity. Right.
(41:13):
Oh, man.
No, I mean, you know what? You're not wrong. I don't think Con Air is a bad film. If the metric is which Nick Cage movie should someone see if you needed to be like, that's Nick Cage. Con Air is arguably the right choice.
(41:34):
I just again, just for me, it's like he is the least interesting part of Con Air, which is why I'm struggling with this.
Yeah, I think that's that's where maybe I diverged from you a little bit, because I think that he is even if he's that audience surrogate, he's such like a weird character audience surrogate that he still stands out to me, even though he's not technically important.
(41:56):
And like everybody that stands out more are the bad guys. You know, it's like he's just carrying it along.
But it's because of that charisma that I was talking about earlier, like he's such a weird, charming, idiot hillbilly nice guy. Like, I don't know. There's like, that's my purse.
It's like a true likeability to him. You know, the hair blowing in the wind, the smile, the wink, like everything about it is just like so over the top that like if he weren't dialed up to 11, I think you're right.
(42:32):
I think Sean that he would be completely gone. Like it would be just an imagine. Like anybody could fill that void. But I think that it is important that it's Nick Cage and it is a really, really interesting, weird performance for him because it is solely based on charisma and being super jacked.
I think I got to go with Con Air. I but everybody should watch Red Rock West. It's great.
(42:56):
Dennis Hopper rules, Nick Cage rules, Laura Flynn Boyle sucks.
I'm proud of that. I know you had this so decided. It sounded like a month ago. And but I mean, I've done the exact same thing on a few films. Yeah.
I mean, Con Air is a weird hokey piece of shit, but I love it. Well, you're going to go home watching it again. Watching it again. You know, it's like, this is fun.
(43:22):
This is fun. Stupid fun. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's my decision.
Yay. Welcome to the Master Eight. I.E. we're going to make Peter decide every one of these. Every single one is my choice.
No, there will be some some. I have a feeling you guys will have a quorum on this at some point. It's only four episodes.
(43:46):
Yeah, I think comedy we're going to pretty much align.
And I mean, the fucking weird category is going to be interesting. So for everyone who's listening, we've got Moonstruck and Raising Arizona up against each other in comedy.
Pig and Joe in Sirius and then fucking weird. We've got Wild at Heart and Vampire's Kiss. So this could be me deciding four episodes.
(44:07):
Please don't do that to me. It means you'd have to actually start watching the movies again.
I just want to keep sending Mandy through to keep making you. And you did that to yourself. I know.
Well, technically, you did it to your wife. That's true.
You know, I think we I think we pretty much nailed it.
(44:28):
We came through this together and we found the right decision.
But as a team, not.
Not that it's a competition or anything, but this is still one of the most interesting.
Not that it's a competition or anything, but this is still one one chalked up for me. I'm going to write that on your wall.
Please don't write on my wall.
(44:50):
I just I feel like we I just felt like we'd be doing Red Rock West of Disservice if I didn't like give it a solid.
No, it definitely deserves to be in the conversation.
It you know, it made it here on its own legs like it earned a spot in the like final action film conversation.
(45:11):
And that's big because it beat out like it got further than the rock face off.
National treasure, national treasure gone in 60 seconds. Like there's a ton of movies.
Yeah, I will say given his prevalence as action action guy in the 90s, a lot of his action movies aren't the best.
Totally agree.
(45:33):
No, I mean, action movies in general aren't the best.
If you want to see like somebody's acting skills and action movies, not where you want to do it.
I'm just not even sure. It shares the same first three letters.
First four.
First four. There's a universe out there somewhere where Nick Cage starred in True Lies.
And I feel like we're in the worst universe for not having existed.
(45:56):
That would be amazing.
If you want to follow us on social media, you can find us at Cage match pod cage underscore match underscore pod or on Patreon if you want to support us.
Thank you to our sparkle buddies, Josh, Sean, Josie, Rico, Matt, Adam and Bill and to our cage dancers, Ira, John Freeman, Lance, Nathan and Cameron.
We really appreciate the support. And yeah, feel free to tell me that I'm wrong and dumb for the next four episodes.
(46:21):
I would never let Adam.
Thank you. Yell at your neighbor. I know. Come at me, Clem.
It's interesting going back and listening to all our like things that stuck for a little bit of time.
We were trying to.
Speaking of all that, man, I was really like going back and listening to these episodes, very disappointed that we never got the porn hub thing rolling.
(46:44):
I tried. They wouldn't let me like submit like videos and stuff.
Yeah, you gave it a good thrust. I should have like sent them an email with a picture of my butthole.
You know, weirdly enough, probably the appropriate time to send such an email.
Hey, please let me post on your website.
Here's my brown star. Yep.
(47:05):
And that's where we'll leave it. Bye bye.
Wait, what's on that? What's on your beer? Koozie Nick?
Oh, this is my. Oh, hey.
(47:28):
Yeah, appropriate. It's my Cameron Poe.
Nicholas Cage.
Koozie. For a second, I was just because of the graininess of discord.
I just saw like the hair and like a blurry face.
I'm like, why is Peter's wife's face?
Oh, yeah, we all got those the other way.
Sorry. Yours is in the mail.
(47:52):
Is it along with my Christmas gift, Peter?
Well, at some point I will.
I've actually at this point, I'm just hanging on to that gift until you're here.
All right. I'll see you in a couple of months then.
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