Face/Off vs Con Air

The biggest head to head match-up to date seems an appropriate time to introduce: Podcast Court. The Slicksteen starts while returning guests, Gary and Rox, defend the honor of Face/Off and Shey teaches us a thing or two about Con Air. Let's get thick in the zeitgeist of '97. Who makes the better case? Which movie has the correct amount of face touching? Won't someone please put that bunny back in the damn box? This is Cage Match.

Intro music by: Bill Panks

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What you are listening to is real. The participants are not actors. They are real people with a case pending in Podcast Court.

(00:10):
Hello, I'm Producer Peter and welcome to Cage Match, a roundabout way of meeting Nicolas Cage, Podcast Court.
This is a case of a long-haired ex-con and a known terrorist who loves peaches a bit too much.
Oh, God.
Oh, my God.

(00:42):
Peter?
What?
Just naked.
Always.
Dangling.
Listen, man, the Dangle Downs got a dangle.
Slanging and dangling.
Slanging and dangling. Oh, man.
So it's just been a long time since we've actually sat at the table and done this.
So you get to come for our first fuck off episode.
It's been like a month since Nick and I have actually had to talk to each other.

(01:05):
You still choose to.
Optional.
Otherwise.
Like fools still choosing to talk to one another.
And Peter's like old now.
I know.
He also fucking forty.
Yeah.
Me too.
And vasectomized.
Not me.
Yeah.
I still got all my parts.
Yeah.
Nick just got his snipped recently.
Yeah, it was real nice.
Nice job.

(01:26):
You got it.
You got a souvenir knife out here as well.
I got it right here in case I need to cut somebody from Dr. Snip.
Yeah.
Can you hand me that box cutter over there, Peter?
Yes.
Just to be safe.
Just to be safe.
I'll just use this as your bit.
I figure this is probably more than enough.
Yeah.
We've definitely escalated here.
Well, welcome back, Shay.
Thanks for having me.

(01:47):
Hi, I'm Sean.
This is Cage, Matt, colon around about we've meeting Nicolas Cage.
We're taking a different approach at this this time.
How about you, Nick?
Who are you?
I'm Nick.
Perfect.
And Peter, who are you?
I'm producer Peter.
We're really crushing it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We got we got a fancy new intro that does most of the heavy lifting.
That's true.
Yeah.
I don't need to explain what we do here anymore.
No.

(02:08):
Actually, that intro doesn't explain at all what we do.
No.
So we took 64 Nicolas Cage films and we are final four bracketing those down to Nick.
It's cage is cage is film.
Wow.
I am out of practice.
And then we'll get there eventually.
And this is the start of the slicks team.
Yep.
Taken two movies, the action genre and arguably the two big ones.
I'd say they are some of the most well known events in that action.
But we're only here to talk about one of them today.
Right now.
Right now.
Until later.
And we talk about the other part.

(02:29):
I got a question.
But she won't be here for that.
So she this is your third guest.
Awesome.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Awesome.
Welcome back.
Only second official episode though.
Yeah.

(02:50):
But I mean, G-Force really counts as like a double because it was so good.
Actually, we did G-Force to test this very concept.
Concept.
It was ridiculous.
I liked it a lot.
Yeah.
The nodes, man.
The nodes, nodes.
It's got that boom boom pow.
I do think about nodes a lot more now because of that movie.
For deliciousness.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I put that on yesterday in the background on the TV, just to annoy Nick.

(03:13):
Hmm. I just didn't pay attention to it.
It's that easy.
Amazing. Amazing.
So you're here to defend the honor of the lovely movie.
Con Air. Con Air.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Yeah. Give us an opening statement.
Well, I saw Con Air in the theater, I'm pretty sure.
So that's my relationship to it.
The beginning, you know, it is a movie.

(03:35):
It is an action movie about Nicholas Cage plays this guy, Cameron Poe.
He does something to defend his lady and winds up in prison
and through some happenstance ends up on this airplane that
turns out to be full of crazy ass criminals, just the worst kinds.

(03:58):
So naturally, he's there, too.
There's a lot of action that happens and
some weird shit.
And then it ends pretty, pretty nicely.
There's like a nice little bow on the on the end of it, you know,
kind of typical action flick, but in the best way.
No, that's OK. That sums it up great.

(04:20):
Because after the initial 20 minutes, there is no plot to speak of.
It's just action till the end.
It's just them doing things to get to the thing we we've known
that they've wanted to do since. Yeah.
Yeah, that's all you need.
20 minutes. Yeah.
Don't try to put too much script or like
concept into a movie about an airplane full of criminals.

(04:42):
Criminals. Yeah. That's going to.
They hide. Yeah.
You don't want to. You can't go too far with it.
People won't believe it.
That's right. It would jump the shark too fast.
That was definitely their mission here was to make a believable
action flick for sure.
Yeah. That's why I filed it under documentaries.
Dave Shabelle doll is a very accurate representation of him.

(05:03):
Oh, it's just like the one I've got at home.
While it's unfortunate, he's in that movie.
It's really great that he dies.
And so, you know, it was kind of epic and hilarious
in and hilarious.
So, yeah, enjoyable all around.
So the scene where he doesn't die, but they find his body
and they like drop it on the car.

(05:24):
Just a complete tonal shift from like gritty action movie
to like kind of screwball comedy for all of two minutes.
Like this movie, I love so much.
It's just totally it is all over the shop.
Yes, I think I wrote down in my notes that it is a an action
drama thriller heist

(05:47):
romance comedy because they do kind of like I mean,
they hijacked the plane.
So it's but they all have different roles in it
and they had the schematics to the plane beforehand.
And it's planned out.
Yeah, it feels very heisty.
I don't know. Yeah, they had prison to prison communication somehow.
So right. Yeah. Don't worry about that.

(06:07):
Yeah, it's been a problem.
We've never really addressed about this one, but it's not a problem.
It's fine. MC Gainey.
Yeah. Always cool. That guy's great.
Swamp Thing. He's probably my favorite of the convicts.
Oh, yeah. Oh, OK.
Well, have we talked about favorite convicts before?
Who can? Yes, we have.
It doesn't matter.
Which one's your favorite convict?

(06:28):
Now, aside from Garland Green.
Well, OK, I guess I won't say that.
No, you can totally say.
I mean, Steve, Steve is just great in everything, in my opinion.
So I really enjoy him.
But yes, I agree. He's great in everything.
Yeah. He's great.
He's creepy as fuck.
And I mean, but that's always what he is.
So you kind of he's a human and he's really good at it.

(06:49):
Yeah, I guess you're trying to think of the the murderers row of convicts.
Yeah, I'm just going through the rolodex of convicts in my head.
Well, you got pinball.
You got I mean, Danny Tracey, Danny Trejo.
He's kind of nobody should be.
No, I'm not saying he's my.
No, no, no, he's not.
He's not my favorite convict.
I just enjoy the fact that.

(07:10):
Oh, yeah. That is such a weird choice.
And we have like these just the first person initially like caricatured
villains, we have Cyrus, the virus, we have pinball, we have like
just these over the top, like comic book villains, Billy Bedlam.
And then we have this guy who raped 23 to 500 women.
Yeah, it's random.
I just think it's random that he's there.

(07:32):
And Danny Trejo is always just kind of a weird addition to things.
One is, you know, but John Malkovich is kind of
he's the the head of the Cyrus, the virus, Cyrus, the virus.
I I like him, too.
He's great actor. And so I really liked his character.
He's just unhinged. Yeah, really.
You know, he's always fun.

(07:52):
Yes. My favorite was Moskowitz, one of the guys who got shot.
Oh, who had no lines. Yeah.
I really like Diamond Dog.
Diamond. Having.
Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah.
And then the guy, I don't remember his name, but he was in Forrest Gump
and he was the friend of Cameron Poe in this baby.
Baby. Oh, thank you.

(08:14):
OK, let's get to the Garland Green of it all.
Defend Garland Green in his placement in this movie.
I he doesn't really have any.
I don't think he really has any like if you removed him from the movie,
it wouldn't really change anything in that regard.
Yeah, he's totally useless.
Do I enjoy the fact that he's there anyway?

(08:36):
100 percent.
That's part of the appeal is just like what is like
most of the time watching it just being like, oh, this is happening now.
Oh, OK, what's he going to do?
And then he's just there to provide some like creepo
fucking commentary, weird statements and then go
sit and have tea with a tiny child of an empty swimming pool that comes out.

(08:58):
And like, no clue. But I'm here for.
I always think like with Garland Green, I was thinking that one episode
of The Simpsons where the mafia and the Yakuzas are fighting on the front lawn
and Marge's like Homer comes in and says, you know, but that little guy
in the back hasn't done anything yet.
And you know, when he does, it's going to be great.
And then there's not really that payoff other than he escapes at the end
and we're supposed to feel good about that.

(09:20):
Yeah. I mean, it could have been like a setup for Connor.
Connor, too.
I am annoyed we didn't get the buddy cop comedy of Q.
Second, Meany after this.
That's true. They're they're buddies.
At least friendly. Yeah.
Trauma will do that sometimes.
I love cool.
Meany, such a big meatball.
I like him. Yeah.

(09:40):
It's also just kind of a random person.
I only think of it in Titanic.
Other than that, that's the first movie I think.
What was called Meany or who was called Meany in Titanic?
I don't think there's a what?
Oh, wait. No, never mind.
That was Billy Zane.
No, it's a different.
It's a different person.
Billy Zane in a no fucking terrible way.

(10:00):
I would love to see a chubby balding Billy Zane.
Well, I guess like you mean Billy Zane now.
Just know, put some hair on him and then it's OK.
Not a lot of hair, though.
Oh, right.
Had to go halfway between hair and bald.
OK, so it kicks off with cage getting into a bar fight with some fucking yokels.
Yeah. Well, they come at him.

(10:21):
Oh, they sold it.
They want the lady.
It kicks off with how do I live?
Suddenly, I'm out.
You. Yes, I like.
You get me.
He gets out of the Army Rangers, gets off a boat
to an bar right next to an oil refinery that produces fire.
Alabama. Yeah.
Yeah. Meets up with his pregnant wife.

(10:44):
She's seven months pregnant, six months pregnant, three months.
Tries to have a nice dance with her.
Some yokels are like, I want to fuck your wife.
Go buy me a fucking beer.
I mean, it's a powerful tactic.
Yeah. Blames him for why they lost Vietnam.
Yeah, this is a strong stance for people to just have in the South.
It's not what I would typically expect to find.
And the fact that nobody else in the bar stands up to that guy

(11:09):
or stands up for his behavior makes me think that this whole bar is just that way.
Probably.
But then as they're leaving 10, like 20 yards from the bar,
these three rock up, smash a bottle over his head,
start really laying in them like they're aiming to kill him.
He defends himself, kills one of the guys, just reflex like nosebone into the brain.

(11:31):
Well, yeah, he pulled a knife out.
Yeah. Yeah. No.
No cage had permission to kill. Yeah.
But because he's, you know, a deadly weapon, seven years for self-defense.
It's gonna be so stupid.
It's involuntary manslaughter now.
It's so dumb.
OK, well, here's here's the thing I love.
Is that happens seven years because he's held to a higher standard.

(11:53):
End of the film destroys Las Vegas, kills a guy with like a big steam like weight.
You know, just actual violence for the sake of violence.
Bye. Out on the back.
Have fun. Have a hero. Yeah. Thanks.
Here's a medal of honor.
Technically, they can't prove that he was responsible for most of that.
Yeah. And it wraps again with Lee and rhymes.

(12:15):
Just a nice little book and how do I live with that?
That drops a few times in the movie.
Yeah, absolutely. And it works perfectly.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm hmm. Monica Potter.
So cute. Great. Yeah.
She's cute. I really like her.
Her nose is like such a classic turned up.
Yeah. Like the whole cast.
The whole cast is pretty great.

(12:36):
It is. It's a great cast.
John Cusack. Cusack works great in this.
I love his smarmy sandal wearing like, you know, it's
it actually Mr. More like Mr. Thesaurus.
Look, his big suit khaki khaki suit wearing mofo.
Yeah. The fashion in this is not the best.
Well, it was 97. Yeah.
Although it was probably Nick Cage's best look.

(12:59):
I mean, and the most giffable possibly the hair
when he just walks off the bus and the hair, the wind in the hair.
And he's got the smirk on his face.
I mean, it's just everywhere. It's like the best thing.
So we have the little like him having seven years in jail
and he's like learning Spanish, learning origami.
I wanted all these things to come up during the movie.

(13:21):
You know, better MacGyver pay.
If you had like origami to shuriken at one point.
Yeah. Then like, fuck, yeah, that would be incredible.
That's how we take down Diamond Dogg.
I also he also does the cool thing where he's like sitting cross legged
and just holding himself up on his fingers. Yeah.
Well, none of that stuff comes into play.
No, but it was cool to watch it happen.

(13:42):
It was.
I was trying to think of a time when he killed somebody just with his fingers.
But I mean, he pushes Billy Bedlam into a thing into a pipe.
Yeah, I think that was more like a kick, though.
That's true. It was.
Oh, yeah. A hip thrust.
Him off the back. Right.
Yeah. He just bridges.
So that's exactly a bridge that he did.
He bridged him up into the into the ceiling of the of the under

(14:06):
under the plane.
I do. So there's that scene.
The undercarriage.
The under plane. I do love that scene because they cut to Billy Bedlam
and they're all like hunched over and he's just like, yeah.
Yeah, I love how yellow they make his teeth just for that end scene.
Oh, it's so nasty.
Oh, we couldn't get the the mannequin to look like he had white teeth.
So he's got to have yellow teeth now.

(14:27):
Yeah, there's. Fuck this guy up.
That scene really is what a great example of what I think is just missing
from this movie is just the dialogue and the writing is truly terrible,
especially for an action film.
You kick a guy onto a steam pipe.
What do you want, liner?
Nobody one liner.
She's like, why didn't you put the bunny back in the box?

(14:49):
Was the line was the line read after that?
Yeah. What do we think of Cage in general in this film?
Like, Nick, you and I have watched a lot of Nicholas Cage.
Where does this stack in terms of like character and performance?
I love the character because the character is just
a morally a good guy, but he's willing to get his hands dirty for this.

(15:11):
He's he's trying to help everybody except for, you know, the bad guys.
He does not help them at all.
Just a good guy, but he's tough.
Yeah. I guess my issue with this in terms of a cage film is like,
I don't know how much it matters that it is Nicholas Cage
with how little Cameron Poe really has to do in terms of speaking.
Right. There's not a lot of dialogue for like or like a character

(15:34):
beyond just being random action tough guy.
Sometimes all you need is random action tough guy, though.
And he he played it perfectly.
I mean, you know, he didn't write the script.
Yeah. And he delivered.
He just delivered every line.
He stayed true to the character.
This movie might have my least favorite Nick Cage line read

(15:54):
of everything we've watched so far, which is when Baby Oh gets shot
and talking about like, I don't I don't believe in God.
And Nick Cage just stand up and goes,
I'm going to prove to you God exists and like goes to like
fight the bad guys.
Does he roundhouse kick someone at that point?
I can't remember.
Get shot in the arm.
Oh, and he just keeps going. Yeah.
Pretty sick. That was pretty cool.

(16:16):
Action tough guy.
Kind of hot.
And he saves the day in the end.
He does like four times.
That's OK. My only view for this movie, again, is that it's just like
you could cut one of these sections out almost across the board.
Like it doesn't matter which one you pick and you would not miss it.
Like you could take out crashing in Las Vegas and still end on the chase.

(16:37):
You could take out the chase.
And then crash.
Vegas is the crash.
The crash.
We can take it.
Crashing in Vegas.
How very it was awesome that they show the plane going through the building
and like somehow no one hears or sees what's going on until it's right there.
Oh, shit. Crashing in.
I know I love that.

(16:57):
It's just like the special action sequence.
Yeah. The original version, though, I really wish they could have done.
They were going to crash it into the mirage.
The mirage was having a problem with their identity
and like didn't want to be attached to an R rated movie, which like of all the movies,
this one would be fine.
They were going to fight in the volcano that they had.
It was going to erupt in the end in an underwater fight between Poe

(17:20):
and Cyrus the virus. What?
Incredible. Cool.
Like that's tight as fuck.
So long as he can still be like launched off of a how do you get into the smasher?
Yeah.
That is he gets ejected from the volcano.
Yes. Whoa.
I mean, there is some good like human projectile scenes

(17:41):
like John Cusack gets shot by a jet motion.
Cage jumps through a window and then is propelled by an explosion.
Yeah. Cyrus the virus gets launched off of a fire truck.
Right. I mean, he's hoisted up on the ladder.
What? What do you think?
Gains crashes in there.
He's handcuffed to the ladder.

(18:03):
What broke? Probably his thumb.
Yeah. His hand probably ripped off something like this.
Oh, well, Trejo's arm.
Please. Well, yeah, that definitely came off.
I forgot about that.
We're watching him like, oh, yeah, that's a good bit.
Yeah. There's like good visual jokes.
But like what a weird arm that it just completely tore off like an action.

(18:23):
At the elbow. Yeah.
Well, he looked like once with me.
I mean, it kind of made sense to me.
Oh, like another scene that I think you could cut like the trap in the airport.
Like that. You don't need that.
I get why it's there. It's another big show piece.
There's lots of gunfire, you know, all that.
But it's like it doesn't need to be there.
They could have just escaped that base had both fuck up their plane

(18:45):
and the traffic Carson City.
Yeah. First stop.
I don't know that you need the military moment.
You know, there's just a lot of bits and pieces
that could make this movie tighter in my mind.
It is. Yeah.
And popcorn's fun. Yeah. Tasty.
Yeah. You would still need the military involvement or whatever,
but they could just come up as as the plane escapes.

(19:05):
Yeah. Because you had the whole note being thrown out.
And then the moment of where's the chopper.
And he's like, they're coming.
There's so many things. There's a fucking chopper chase.
It's like, it just keeps going.
Well, it's the classic, you know.
Well, someone listens to no one listens to the guy that ends up being right
about everything. Sure. Every time he's not listened to.

(19:27):
And they go and chase down that.
To be fair, I don't. Poor tour.
I don't trust most people in suits and sandals.
Well, especially khaki beige ones.
Yeah. And Birkenstocks.
Yeah. So, OK, this shape for you,
this was your first time watching it as a grown person.

(19:47):
No, I'm sure I've watched it in the past years.
So, you know, that's I'm sure I have.
But it was the first time in a while
that I'd watched it when you asked me to do this this morning.
When I rewatched it, that was a just a rewatch to make sure everything was fresh.
Which clearly worked really well.

(20:09):
I didn't remember.
This is a great.
I mean, I would have seen most of this movie out of order,
like on TBS or TNT.
This is a great.
No matter where you turn it on, you're going to see some fun.
That's true. I mean, it is an enjoyable movie in that regard.
Even the cliche, just hokey stuff in it

(20:32):
just fit because it was the entire movie was that.
And this I know this one got like bad, bad ratings or whatever.
People didn't really like it as much as some of his other ones anyway, that's for sure.
But I don't know.
I think you just have to take it for what it is.
And like you said, not not put too much meaning to something.
Yeah, it's just a cornball kind of action film.

(20:55):
Yeah, I love that it kind of exists in the role of something like the
untouchables or whatever that saloon piece is,
where it's like we're just going to cram a bunch of like the hottest action
and like film guys in this together.
Yeah, Expendables.
Yeah, that's right.
And there's a bunch of celebrities we know you love.
Yeah.

(21:15):
I have an entire Expendables back tattoo.
It's good.
It's all Dolph Lundgren, though.
30 Dolph Lundgren.
Oh, oh.
And then the most random gay character as well in here,
who is, again, very stereotypical, but it was kind of cute
to just see a person in drag in this film.

(21:38):
And he wasn't it wasn't kind of anything, you know, his again,
that character probably didn't matter.
But the fact that it wasn't a bigger right.
It was it was a punch line.
It wasn't a punch line.
I mean, it was just like, yeah, he's just this gay prisoner and likes to wear dresses.
I was like, that's pretty dope.
And that is a reference to an actual person, though.

(21:59):
Oh, it is. OK.
I don't have that information again.
I can't remember the exact story, but Sally Can't Dance was the name.
Yeah. Oh, OK. Well, yeah.
Did you have a quote that you thought was interesting or remarkable
or funny or stupid?
Yeah. Did you do our work for us?
I didn't write it down.
So was it just dome it? Was it?
Oh, yeah, that's right.
Yeah.

(22:23):
I fucking love that.
And maybe I'll see some interesting see trees and stuff.
What is it?
There were so many talking to
fucking Garland Green for the first time.
What's wrong with him?
I had to guess a lot of that.
Yes, that is the one.
Thank you. Thank you. That's a good one.

(22:44):
Right. When you said I was like, yes, it was that one.
Because, yeah.
I like when he comes up from killing Billy Bedlam and Garland Green.
You think two men go down and one comes up.
I'm not talking to you.
I did notice because the way they figure out that he's a traitor is
fucking what's Cyrus the virus.

(23:05):
Billy Bedlam, Diamond Diamond Dog goes down to like
it's like, I'm wondering about this guy.
I'm going to go look at his personal effects, which is how
Billy Bedlam found it out to him, like, so just reusing the same plot point.
I mean, that box is still there.
Yeah. No, but I mean, we talked we've talked about this, I think,
every time we watch this movie, like you could cut 20 minutes
out of this movie easily and it would still have the same plot.

(23:27):
Pretty much probably.
But I didn't fall asleep during it.
No, it is.
It was some other movies.
I don't know if I'm allowed to.
Are you going to talk to us?
You can talk some shit.
Am I allowed to talk shade about the one that you can't it's up against?
Yeah.
OK, well, I did fall asleep trying to watch face off.
Not going to lie. I did.
For me, what it came down to is while I enjoy explosions

(23:52):
and and action, I just it was so much of that over and over
and over and over again that my brain kind of took it as a white noise.
And I guess as opposed to this movie, which is very controlled.
No, not controlled.
I would just say there's less.
It's it's it's very there's like explosion.

(24:15):
And then it cuts to a scene that's a little quieter
or has like some random weird funny one liners.
I don't know. I was under the same condition.
Face off doesn't have anything like that.
And counterpoint face off does have weird familial face touching.
That was the other big win.
Yeah, that that one.
It's just everyone's doing the weird.

(24:36):
Let me grace your face with my fingertips.
And it's weird, culty.
Like, did I watch children of the some?
Yeah, I don't know.
It gives me bad vibes overall.
This is good.
She threw on face off.
And John Travolta is really just one of the worst humans.
So I just don't want to I didn't want to see his face.

(24:57):
It was all around.
But it was awful.
Yeah. And then Nick Cage had to wear it, unfortunately, for Nick Cage.
So I know it's weird that they actually did that for that movie.
I know dedicated artists, you know.
But I'm not I'm not judging on plot believability or anything like that.
No, no, no, no.
We're in the same vein here for sure.
It's clear why they're up against one another.

(25:19):
You watch these movies.
So you watch Con Air as of this morning and also not that long ago.
How do you consider it in terms of rewatchability?
I'd probably rewatch it again.
It's not like a once a month thing,
but I would absolutely find myself watching this again for sure.
Yeah. You can watch it organically just like one day

(25:41):
or just watch it in bits and pieces as it was meant to be.
Have it on in the background while I'm doing something else,
which I like to do with a lot of movies.
And then you catch just like one of the stupid lines.
But yeah, I overall, you know, I just liked it.
And maybe I don't know, face off for me.

(26:02):
I didn't see that one in the theater.
So maybe I don't have this like grounded, rooted connection to it
like I do with Conair.
But again, it also just didn't grab me in the same way.
The plot just wasn't for me as fun.
Connor, I guess I like more.

(26:23):
It wasn't. I like the more comedic aspect, I think, of Conair,
where I think sure you can point out aspects of face off that are funny.
But I feel like they're intended to be.
And I think Conair had more of that kind of slapstick like, OK,
we know what we're doing right here.
We know we're showing you this Dave Chappelle dummy.
And we know what you're thinking.

(26:44):
And we like that.
You know, like, like, that's fine.
We're into it. We're going to dump him out of a plane.
I don't know.
It's I mean, that's a fair point.
And that's kind of what we're doing with this entire exercise.
We really want to get a take.
Like, why is this movie worth watching?
And I think that's a really good excuse for it.
You know, it's it's stupid. It's fun.
You can turn your brain off and laugh and have a good time.

(27:05):
And then a bunch of propane tanks blow up, you know, whatever.
Sure. Who doesn't need to just check out right now anyway, you know, a little bit.
Just every once in a while, just check the.
Yes, it's nice sometimes.
Favorite scenes.

(27:26):
Hmm. I like when he's under the truck with the with the old guy at the airport.
He's trying to get like a syringe for baby.
How is like, please don't kill me is like, stay down here.
You'll be fine.
I just need a syringe.
Oh, boy, don't do drugs. They'll kill you.
Amazing.
Mine might be the whole like final fight sequence of many deaths of Cyrus, the virus.

(27:50):
I love that it just keeps going.
I love that he just steals a cop motorcycle and rides after,
stabs him through the foot, launches him through a window,
electrocutes him and then. Yes.
And then the smash is his head.
He finally gets terminated.
When the propeller goes like through the airplane for sure.

(28:11):
Queen them. Yeah, I was nuts.
Oh, also, when the when the guard opens up the thing that says, do not open.
And it's a bomb.
That explosion is great.
And that's like his body gets like ragdolled across the road.
Totally flung.
And John Cusack out in the hall with the door that comes over his head.

(28:31):
You know, whatever some lands in the wall right next to him.
Well, that could have been me.
I want to know what John Cusack turns around in that scene
because he's running away to go get something or get somebody.
Then he's like the guy like opens the thing, but he's junkies.
I send the whole and John Cusack has this sudden like I have to turn around
and do something right as the explosion happens.
Well, because he saw that box that said, do not open.
And he's like, I bet.

(28:53):
And those. Yeah.
They just fucking idiots are going to open that shit.
He's like, get out of there.
I like the scene. OK.
I like any kind of escape scene, to be honest with you,
even if it's the bad guys that you're not really rooting for.
But the fact that they hid little tiny pins,

(29:15):
little needles in their hand, like under fake skin
or whatever is so hilariously amazing.
And they just boop, bop, boop, pick the lock.
Yeah, that's it. It was that easy.
I like that. Mm hmm.
I didn't know how, you know, at first, I couldn't remember
how they escape when I rewatched it the first time.

(29:36):
And then I saw that I was like, those tricky bastard.
Oh, yeah. Dave Chappelle sets a dude on fire and
he barfs up. Yeah.
I don't have a particular favorite scene, but there's one that
a specific image from this that I always remember.
It's as the breakout is starting to happen,
but Cyrus hasn't gotten released from the cell yet.

(29:57):
And he's just like standing at the gate like, hey, yeah.
Shaking his manacles around.
I like that. It sounds like a faux baby whine like
open the. So annoying.
Yeah, that's that's probably my favorite part.
Yeah, love it.
OK, so if you had to sum up for us a case saying

(30:22):
why this one should move forward, what would you say?
I mean, I think I did, but just say it better.
I was spliced in here.
If you could just rearrange some of those words.
Small, memorable bites.
Remember, we're like goldfish here. Yeah.
Action packed, quirky, thrill ride,
stupid in the best way.

(30:44):
Satisfying resolve.
And worth the rewatch.
Cage, look and fly, look pretty hot.
Nice hair. Good muscles.
Obligatory. I'm going to take my shirt off scene.
Just have the right. Right.
Have the tank tattoos and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hero. You know, he's got the hero side of the story here.

(31:07):
And there's no creepy face touching.
So that's what.
All right. Strong argument. Thank you.
Well, thank you, Shay. Thank you.
I always enjoy being here.
It's always a good time.
It's been too long. We have.
But yeah, welcome back.
At least there's no gerbils in this one.
Yeah, thank fucking God.

(31:30):
No animals of any kind.
Yeah, just a bunny.
Just those animals in the air.
But it doesn't.
Animal and those animals in the air.
I mean, honest.
OK, favorite line is honestly when he turns around
and when he just John Malkovich,
he takes over the plane, he tells the pilot, he's like,

(31:51):
you're still going to Carson City and he comes out.
He's like, welcome to Con Air.
I love slash hate when they say the names of the film.
Both of these movies have that. Oh, yeah.
Right. So and he it was, you know, he was a good line for him.
I thought it was it worked well.
In the moment. Yeah, definitely. OK.
Should I? Should I? Yeah. Give a bang.

(32:13):
Whoa. Yeah.
We'll just keep that one.
Well, yeah.
And you have anger.
Yeah.
Amazing.
And we're back.
Also here with our old friends.

(32:33):
Yeah, we're back again. That's scary.
And rocks.
Our guests were better at our jobs than us. Yes.
It's nice to see you guys again. Yeah. Welcome back.
It's good to be here.
You're three timers as well. Right.
This is your third record. Yeah. Fourth.
Fourth technically. Technically the last episode.
Yeah. Welcome back.
So, yeah, we had two three timers.

(32:54):
I didn't even realize that we did that. Yeah.
I mean, you slacks.
I get around technicality on the last one.
Well, because G-Force. Yeah. You got to count G-Force.
Never forget G-Force. I mean, he was on the podcast.
So that's fair. Yeah.
Are you all noticing what you're doing to Roxanne each time?
She's getting filthier on the mic and she just led with you sluts.

(33:15):
Oh, yeah. That's good.
Yeah, that's fine.
I mean, it just felt so at home for us.
So I mean, that's just speaking truth to power.
I am.
Yeah, there's a lot to talk about with face.
So face off.
Yeah. Do you guys want to give us a brief rundown of this film? By way of
getting into this, I want to talk about 1997.

(33:38):
What was actually happening in 97?
The zeitgeist must have been thick.
You had this film and Titanic and L.A.
confidential and then on television, you had the debut of Rugrats
and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I think Biggie got shot in 97.
Just so many really interesting, groundbreaking, pivotal things happened in 97.

(34:03):
And I thought including the making of Conair.
Right. That doesn't make it.
Conair came out in 97.
That was the shade. Yeah.
I mean, yeah, but not just making it.
Both these movies came out the same year.
Absolutely. And that mission was intentional.
But anyhow, to contrast this film with L.A.
confidential, which really got so much critical acclaim,

(34:25):
I did a quick little search to see which movie won more awards.
And as you all probably remember, L.A.
confidential, like Cleaned House, like 28 awards, 30 awards, something like that.
Definitely remember this.
I was 13 watching the Oscars with bated breath.
Right. And it was like all the highbrow awards.
But based off, if you recall, won a blockbuster movie award and

(34:46):
MTV movie award, maybe.
Yeah. So the people's awards.
Yeah. The people's awards. Right. Absolutely.
They got a Nickelodeon Kids Choice Award.
100 percent.
And so my basic synopsis and I'll throw it over to Rox
to like add some more context is I think that this movie
settled into the niche at the time of telling the old

(35:11):
like mythic like Greek and Roman stories.
And so much of this plot hinged on calling back some really,
really old storytelling tropes.
And obviously, they weren't trying to hide it by naming the main characters
Castor and Pollock's Troy.
And there's an Adam and Eve in the film.
And there's just so many things that they were.

(35:31):
I think John Woo and all the people he worked with were really trying to go
like super old school myth with this film.
And for me, I thought there was, yeah, so much like the boat
chase from Oedipus.
I knew you were going to point that out.
I said to Roxanne coming in, I was like, Nick loves Oedipus so much
and like maybe a little too much.
And I'm very comfortable with my Oedipal things.

(35:55):
My Oedipus complex.
Yeah. And he.
Mick really loves when the bowels of two ships crash into each other.
It was called Jack.
So take it away, Rox.
What I will say about the plot of this movie is that it made a lot
more sense to me after I thought about it while on ketamine.

(36:15):
OK, this is exactly.
Yeah.
We're glad you guys are back.
I mean, I just thought about face transplants and it just made total sense.
I don't know if I can explain it.
But I will. OK, let me put it this way.
If you're not on drugs, this movie is insane

(36:36):
and just feels like a little bit of everything
and everything in the kitchen sink kind of movie.
And for me, I'm going to already just start pulling for this film.
I think it gets better with every watch.
Like the first time around watching this, it felt completely frantic and wild.

(36:56):
Second time around, it still felt that way.
But it all started to come together.
Yeah, I think that's the beauty of the movie.
It's about these two guys.
Good guy, bad guy.
They swap faces as you and bodies
somehow. And yeah.
So they're pretending to be each other.
And chaos ensues. Good versus evil.

(37:18):
And as they swap faces and bodies, they also swap families
and they they swap each other's delinquent fatherhoods
and they swap each other's sexual relations.
And it goes like Oedipus, you know, and it gets to these real
like messy entanglements that I think are so characteristic of this.
Well, since we've jumped right into it, where do you guys fall on the archer's

(37:41):
wife is just completely checked out side of the coin versus
they had their penises swapped?
I know where I sit.
I still think they just sort of make it into like
the Reeboks like heirs, like where you just squeeze the nutsack
and inflates the penis to plus or minus what you need for comfort.

(38:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know, that's a good callback because weren't the Reebok pumps
probably 97. They probably were very popular around that time.
Tech was available.
Branding. They're still popular to me now.
So when did Men in Tights come out?
Mm hmm. Like 95 because they were in that.
Oh, yeah, that's true.
Also featuring Dave Chappelle.

(38:24):
It's true. Yeah, we're back to Chappelle.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, pick that apart.
Would you guys like 93? OK, there you go.
Is it malarkey or is it a thing that there are these constellations
and moments in like pop culture and Hollywood particularly
as one vessel for pop culture to get out to the people
where they're just like, is all this content that really lasts
and permeates for a long time and then more fallow periods?

(38:46):
Am I just making that shit up because I've read too much astrology?
Or is that a thing that happens?
I mean, it is kind of remarkable that there are so many
notable things that happened in that particular year.
But I wonder, too, we're all of a rough age.
And I think that there's stuff that crystallized for our generation
that happens to stand out more.

(39:07):
Like, would my 11 year old son look at any of these movies and be like, hmm,
that speaks to me.
Probably not. I think there's also something to be said about pre
Internet era where content was actually like produced and made
in a very different way than it is now, because your son
and daughters are going to grow up with like very bite

(39:27):
sized bits of media made by idiots on the Internet. Right.
And they're going to have a two and a half hour movie or two hours and 20 minutes
view of what entertainment is and what like
they're going to remember fondly and be nostalgic for.
Plus, they're very used to penis swap technology.
Oh, at this point. Yeah.
On that note, and I will just say as a caveat, mom and dad, if you're listening,

(39:48):
I made the mistake of telling my parents about this podcast, guys.
So mom and dad, if you're listening, don't listen to this next part.
I don't want to hear my parents talk.
And they have my parents hear me talking about the spirit of face off.
Would you use reverse psychology, please?
Please listen to this next part.
I'm sure you're going to really want to listen.

(40:09):
We've already talked about the ketamine, but mom and dad, hang up
before I start talking about dick.
They know about the drugs.
But sex is another story.
Anyway, I just OK, I'm theorizing about you here.
You know, you could take it in the direction of it being a subtle
feminist message, because if you're that concerned about your

(40:35):
your penis being one of a kind, then, you know, maybe you should
not be so concerned about it, because at the end of the day,
they're they're more or less all interchangeable.
But what if and OK, what if Archer did not know was not fully aware
of Castor Troy's bifurcated penis
going into this and it blows his cover?

(40:56):
You can't un-fork a wiener
except maybe with magnets.
Oh, yeah. Good idea. Yeah.
Yeah, that's probably what happened.
OK, I take it back. Yeah.
I will say so we know Castor
Troy can eat a peach for hours and there's some that's definitely something.

(41:18):
I guess you know, you end up in that bedroom too.
So I'm just like Archer gets back in his own body.
Wife suddenly now has a proclivity for having her ass eaten out.
How does that work for their marriage?
Well, he'd have to do it after bringing home like a strange boy
that's going to grow up to look like the murderer of their child.
That's still the weirdest part of this movie for me.
Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with you.

(41:39):
I also think the face touching thing is really that's really the worst.
Actually, it's technically called a face waterfall.
We learned. Do tell that.
I also hate that right out of the mouth of John Woo.
They called it a face waterfall.
And audiences loved it.
How does that test well?
I mean, we're audiences and we did not love it.

(42:01):
Have you ever tried it?
Yeah. Come here.
Everybody face waterfall.
The person you're right.
I didn't like it.
And I didn't like it.
I know to take a look at any of you anymore.
To take that point about Archer having sex as Troy

(42:21):
and Troy having sex as Archer.
One of the things Rox and I were talking about before coming in here was
it was clear that Castor Troy was making Sean Archer's life better.
It seemed to me in the film that his wife and his kid loved
having Castor Troy around way more than Sean Archer and his coworkers.
Co-workers liked it. He was a better co-worker.
So Castor Troy elevates Sean Archer's experience.

(42:45):
Similarly, Rox and I contend that John Travolta
acting like Castor Troy, but acting like Nicolas Cage
would act like Castor Troy is the best acting of his career.
When John Travolta acts like Nicolas Cage, it's the best shit he's ever come up with.
I think both of these performances are really good.
Watching like when Nick Cage, when Sean Archer first gets

(43:07):
Castor Troy's face, we first see Nick Cage as Sean Archer.
That made sense.
And he kind of like goes through the emotions of like
kind of coming out of the drugs, like seeing his face, like kind of like starts
just cackling because his brain snaps a little and he starts to cry.
And just that's a great scene and a powerful scene for what is not really

(43:30):
that emotional a film.
And then he still has the voice, the Travolta voice, and it's just silly sounding.
But like the physical acting, I loved in that scene.
Yeah, absolutely. And I love the way that Travolta, whenever he wanted to accentuate
an evil line, would tilt his head a little bit, like in such a cage way, you know,

(43:50):
like he took on all of these cages, particularly the lines, the next hundred years.
Yeah. And then also, let's see what's in Papa's bag.
Peaches. And then he licks his daughter's face.
But again, with the bravado that Nicolas Cage would deliver that line.
Yeah. This movie is fucking wild.

(44:11):
I fucking love this film so much.
This one has grown on me so much since we started this.
Making Travolta make fun of his own chin is terrific.
I like it. There's a lot to be said about this.
And we haven't even gotten to the boat chase.
Oh, we did. All right. Before we get to the boat chase.
I haven't gotten back to the boat. Awesome.
I will say the one one place where this movie really falls down for me

(44:32):
is still the prison sequence, just because it just OK.
Face swapping technology. Fine.
That's what we're here for. We know that going in, we can all agree it's dumb,
but that's the crux of this film.
We get to our one prison and it's like magnetic boots
and all this like crazy other sci fi shit. That's like.

(44:52):
That you went one step too far.
Just have like a black gate prison, like off the coast. Fine.
But like you have to have all this extra just.
Stuff that doesn't do anything to the movie and just makes it silly.
Yeah, in a way, I completely agree with you.
And I think that the fact that this film was made in 97
and it was about a war on terror, it was a little ahead of its time.

(45:15):
And it made some of these like good versus evil, law and order
versus terrorist dynamics look a little weird, because I think that like
we all learned what a black ops prison in Guantanamo Bay
would look like several years later.
And, you know, they were already out there.
But in terms of like the pop culture awareness of what was going on in these spaces,
there was probably no visual for it because it hadn't been shown on cable TV

(45:39):
or in newspapers. And so, yeah, they come up with this weird like sci fi.
It's a little overdone.
And yeah, in general, I thought that that was such an interesting piece
of the of the story was the fact that this was made before this massive shift
in the way that policing was done in terms of terrorism.
And it was a war on terror film before the war on terror.
Well, the visuals of it like really feel like a bygone era of like 80s sci fi,

(46:03):
like that kind of thing.
Just to comment on the prison stuff, too.
The original screenplay, it was written as a prison movie.
Like the whole thing was sci fi prison.
And John Woo was the one who when he signed on to direct it,
he really saw it as a character driven film.
And so that was the spin that he put on it.
They kind of rewrote the script based around that.

(46:24):
That's my understanding. Correct call.
So, yeah, weirdly, the thing that the film like originated as, I agree,
it sort of like stands out in this weird way from the rest of the movie.
And it's sort of not the most interesting part of the film.
However, there is one nugget for me personally.
I really loved when Nicholas Cage, Sean Archer

(46:47):
needs to get himself in the chair for the lobotomy or the electroshock therapy
so he can get his boots off.
So he punches the guard to get the cigarette or he asked for the cigarette.
He punches the guard and then eventually gets lifted up and he's shouting,
Does anyone have a light? You got a light?
That was just so well delivered.
I do love when he first gets to the prison and you get the one guy like

(47:11):
picks a fight with him and he's trying to talk to Pollock's
and talking about how his brains messed up and trying to convince Pollock's
that he's cast or truly it's like, I don't even remember why that guy.
You know, big guy came at me.
I just love the line from Pollock's like,
you made a sex sandwich with his ex-wife and with his wife and sister
the night he was arrested. Like, oh, yeah, do Bob.
That was the machine. Yeah. Oh, oh, shit.

(47:32):
I didn't even notice that.
But I'm trying to.
Now, I'm not going to go into descriptions there.
Yeah. Are we going to talk about do Bob's penis?
Is that one? No, just like sex sandwich.
Rocks explained it. They're all the same.
Thank you, Peter.
Unless they're bifurcated, unless they're bifurcated,
unless you have magnets, magnets. Right.

(47:54):
Precisely.
This is going to be one of those ones I listen to in like three months.
I'm like, what are we talking about?
How did we get here?
Shout out also to the prison break scene.
That was great when he was like on the roof, like getting out of prison.
That part was pretty great. I thought. So. OK.
I was watching this with my brother and they got to that part

(48:14):
and he jumps off and ends up in the water and there are like helicopters
circling around and they're just like, he's probably dead.
Yeah, sure. Let's not worry about it.
People can't swim, right? No, no, no.
You know, there's a few moments in this movie where somebody
is just sort of assumed to be dead and we don't actually know why that is,

(48:35):
including the final scene.
I don't know if you guys knew this, but they're making a sequel.
Face Offer.
Faces off.
What would it even be?
What what would make the faces come off again?
And that's what gets you through the door.
Yeah, I'm going to come. I'm going to watch that movie.

(48:56):
And, you know, I think the what your point about the huge plowhole
that he survives that leap into the frozen waters in the middle of nowhere off.
What you can see L.A. in the background, it's not it was like a few miles off.
OK, OK. I didn't realize I was all of those L.A. offshore oil rigs.
Yeah, yeah.
It was pretending to be.
Yeah, those like you can definitely see the shore and one shot.

(49:18):
Yeah, he's not terribly far.
That's what really pissed me off.
It's like you could probably just pick that guy up like there.
Yeah. But regardless, there's a plowhole there about how.
Yeah, he evades all these helicopters in the in the middle of the water.
So they do give up a naturally quick.
Yeah. For a supermax prison.
Totally, totally.
And I think that part of the like plowhole, part of the construction of that

(49:43):
was this dipping a little more into the realm of like doing a science fiction film
and asking the audience to continually suspend belief
and getting a little farther away from doing like a myth tell in the myth
or like in the fairy tale.
You never have to ask the audience to suspend their disbelief

(50:04):
because it's just assumed from the get go, like we can saw faces off with lasers.
You know, we don't have to explain anything.
You know, a wolf can wear clothing and be mistaken for a grandma.
Sure. So it kind of hangs out in this middle space between myth
and science fiction and sometimes gets a little clunky.
But I really like it when things get all the way pushed out

(50:24):
into the realm of total absurdity, into the mythic, particularly.
I love the scene where Sean Archer's daughter
stabs him with a knife that he provides her.
I think that that's such classic mythic imagery to have that kind of irony
built into the plot.
And that's right after he says the line, what's in Papa's bag?

(50:44):
I thought that moment was just one of my favorite.
How do you feel about the mythology of the mother of Adam
making out with her brother as he was dying?
Yeah. Again, with the like Oedipus stuff, right?
Like, I don't think I realized.
Brother, sister kissing is super nice.
I guess in an interview they were like, why did you do that?

(51:04):
And they were like, we just thought it would be weird.
Yeah. Figured they were a weird family.
It was weird.
Yeah. Well, Nick, you clearly sussed this out.
You saw the boats and you recognize that this was the way
into the to the stream of Oedipus story.
Like, tell me more about that.
How did you immediately become aware that this was so prominent in the film?

(51:25):
You know, I just used my old divining rod and pants got a little tight
and I was like, this is definitely a mother daughter, mother, son kind of
adult documentary.
Oh, God.
Edit your way out of this, Peter.
No. And you know what? I found water.
Bingo.

(51:46):
Well, how many times how many times so far?
You're keeping count now, right?
Well, yeah, I've got like an abacus set up
in the entryway of my house, which is where I often complete. So
Josie just hears that tick of the abacus sliding over.
God damn it.

(52:08):
Well, I get back to what you were saying, Rob, about just the like
the plot holes of this movie.
I just want to make a case for a face off.
Both as a film that I think really does stand alone, but also
I think why it should continue in this competition is that it is
it epitomizes this thing that I know we when we've been on
and you guys all have been talking about throughout this show,

(52:30):
which is this thing about Nicolas Cage and just like things being pushed
to the absolute brink where you have a choice, you know, are you going to jump
into the plot hole or not?
You know, and the thing with Nick Cage is like, if you say yes
to just going there, like you're going to have a good time.
And that for me is the beauty about face off is like it really

(52:53):
it makes it so clear, like that's exactly where you are right from the get go.
I would say like that initial scene with Nick Cage where he's the priest
and he's, you know, dancing.
It's just so clear.
It's like you're either going to get on board with how insane this stuff is
or or you're not and you're not going to have a very good time watching this movie.
So you might as well get into it.
No, that's fair.

(53:13):
That's fair. And he does steal the show.
Like he like choose a scenery so good.
And he's he's good.
Both as Castor, Troy and Sean Archer.
So also another case where they say the name of the movie and the film
a couple of times, you want to take his face off.
Yes, I love that scene where they're all fucked up.

(53:35):
How many times are you going to see face off?
Fuck. But if you're really.
So long movie.
Face.
Yeah, so that's my biggest beef with both of these movies.
I think that they're both a little too long.
I think you can chop bits and pieces of either one and still have a great movie.
How did Sean Archer as Castor
Troy come to the conclusion that Castor Troy would use phrases like,

(53:58):
excuse me, I have to go to the little boy's wee wee room.
That's like a weird vocabulary choice.
Like if I was impersonating a terrorist,
I'm not sure terrorist for hire.
I'm not sure I would come to the oh, he probably uses child references
when he talks about it already on drugs at this point.

(54:19):
Yeah, they're all really fucked up at that point.
Yeah, that's true.
That was a really dumb thing to say, though.
It's a dumb thing to say.
It's not as dumb as the face waterfall.
The face waterfall is face water.
I do like that we did that as like a wave to just kind of went down the line.
That was nice.
We don't talk about it.
You kind of like water falling on your own face.
Yeah, there you go.
Girl.
It's true.

(54:40):
Peter, I have been naked with you in a hot tub before.
It's true. And that this was weird.
This was weird. Yeah.
Well, did you waterfall on each other?
No, I made water.
I went to the wee wee room.
That's the best part about hot tubs.
It's already to like a sterilizing temperature, right?
Yeah, sure.
One hundred and five. That cleans it.

(55:02):
No bacterial growth at all.
Nick, when you were talking just a minute ago
about terrorists versus terrorists for hire, I thought though
it was an important distinction that you made that Castro
Troy is terrorist for hire because he's he's really just in it for Castro Troy.
He's in it for himself. He's in it for the money.
He's he really doesn't care about the good versus evil thing that's happening.

(55:25):
You know, like when there's an explanation that's given,
but it doesn't have much weight to it, he says,
let's release the biblical plague that hell they deserve.
So he's got like a little bit of like a misanthropic approach to
peak U.S. American civilization in L.A.
is this like beacon of the culture, like it's garbage.

(55:46):
We need to just get rid of it because look at this trash that exists in LA.
But really, like, how much does he care?
You know, it's clear that he's like he's in it for the lifestyle.
And again, I found that to be super interesting for for the story,
locating it in 1997, that the terrorist is not like ideologically driven per se.
He's like in it for the glamour.

(56:07):
He's in the lazy and for the parties and for like getting into the hot tub,
getting naked, like living the fast life.
But for some reason, and I think this this connects to the fact that this is
gets caught in the middle between myth and science fiction.
We're never quite told what his motivations are beyond that.
It's like just a job for him now.
And it felt a little dissatisfying to me not to get a little more backstory.

(56:30):
Like, why is he doing of all the ways he could make money?
He's a charismatic person.
He could make money a million ways. Why is he doing terrorism?
Yeah. Why not be a politician? Why not be a Sean Archer?
You know, right? My yeah, he becomes Sean Archer is like, wait,
this is a better hustle. FBI.
My real question is why get rid of that amazing mustache?
I just thought about that.
I did like the mustache a lot.

(56:50):
Mustache and mustache and milkshakes.
Yeah. It's scratch everything I just said.
Let's go to mustache. Forget all that.
It's unfortunate that they started with mustache and went to non mustache.
I mean, it's a great way of telling passage of time. Yeah.
But by changing his face.
I mean, it's better than most movies we watched.
Do you? Yeah. It's not facial hair off.

(57:11):
It's just face off. Yeah.
Also, when he does get to the prison and they do the like
introductory prison scene where he's like in the spotlight,
just in his like skivvies and just shot from behind like backlit.
I'm like, God, that man's back is muscular.
Like, well, he had just filmed Conair.
Yeah, he was ripped. He was ripped at that point. Yeah.
Rox, I saw you get something out of your backpack
and I was really hoping it was the novelization of face off.

(57:35):
Nick and I were talking about this earlier.
No, well, I just ordered the novelization of Conair. Oh, so.
Yeah, I'm very psyched for that.
It's well, I was told to bring a favorite quote.
Oh, yes. Make sure that I had.
Yeah, that in the pocket.
Some of my favorite things I were sad in this film by Nicholas Cage.

(57:56):
Let's go. Let's go. I'm bored. Let's go.
A relatable.
If I were to send you flowers, where would I wait?
Let me rephrase.
If I were to let you suck my tongue,

(58:17):
would you be grateful?
I would be grateful. Yes.
Hmm. Let me show like some slight romantic gesture.
No, no.
This will work better.
You know, it's surprising to me that that move of just sticking your tongue out,
like and leaving it there, waiting for something really not onto it

(58:40):
hasn't like become more of a like that we don't call that
wildly erotic and appealing. Right.
And have a name for it in the way that like the Spider-Man kiss
has become a thing in pop culture.
You know, see, I just assumed that this is when society
as a whole just kind of said, you know what?
I'll back off on French kissing.
This isn't cool.

(59:01):
Like we we've jumped the shark on tongue to mouth action
and then we started eating ass.
So it's great.
Thanks, millennials.
Sorry, Freeman.
So my my favorite line was actually about
Casper Troy from the mouth of Eve.
And at this point, Nicholas Cage is John Archer.

(59:24):
And Eve doesn't realize she's speaking to to Casper Troy.
But what's interesting is at this point in the plot,
they're both being kind of dressed down by the women in their life
and being told like, you suck at being in a relationship with me
and I really don't like it.
But they're hearing it from this other perspective.
And both of them kind of responding with a little bit of understanding
and and compassion, which I think was really well done.

(59:48):
One of the better points of writing in the story.
But Eve tells Casper that the only three things she's ever heard him say
are suck my tongue, nice ass and see you later.
That is a great line.
Do you guys want to throw any shade at Conair?
It's boring.
Especially I mean, in comparison to Face Off, it's a boring movie.

(01:00:11):
That's really what I thought when I watched it was like, OK, there's actually,
you know, there's a fair amount of similar energy, similar plot points
even happening between these two movies.
Yeah, the fact that that Conair is a bit more of a coherent movie,
I think is not a good thing.
I think that it makes it we're supposed to take it more seriously.

(01:00:36):
Or there's more sort of potential for us to to do that.
Whereas, like I said, with Face Off, you're really pushed to the brink of absurdity
and you're either jumping on or not.
But I think Conair was trying to be well, to put it in your guys's language,
Conair for Nick Cage is just it's a it's a tough guy film all the way, 100 percent.

(01:00:57):
Face Off is a tough guy and a fucking weird film all in one, which,
in my opinion, is better. Yeah.
And I didn't watch Conair Roxanne did actually with your mother, right?
Who knows the the writer of the film?
She went to high school with the guy that wrote the movie.
So, OK, what I want to say is, I think if we lived in a culture

(01:01:22):
that was more focused on mythology and less on novel,
then this film would have received a great portion of critical acclaim
that went to L.A. Confidential.
I rewatched L.A. Confidential and it's good.
Don't get me wrong, but it's good because it really nails the form of novel.
I don't think there's anything particularly special about it, honestly, as a film.

(01:01:44):
But it's just a it's a really good adaptation of a novel.
And L.A. Confidential is based on a book.
But Face Off, on the other hand, is this loose adaptation of a few different myths,
including Oedipus, apparently.
I didn't see it coming, Nick.
But thank you for telling me it was coming.
Because it came and.
Oh, yes, it did.
Yeah. But I think that, you know, the blockbuster movie award

(01:02:07):
and the MTV Movie Award show that this movie struck a chord with people.
And I think it's that chord inside of us that still thinks myths are interesting
and worth dealing with and thinking about, even if not everything is explained.
It's a little wacky. It's out there.
There's plot holes everywhere.
It's kind of weird. It's a little freaky.
It makes you feel uncomfortable.
But actually, it's got a ton of staying power.

(01:02:30):
Also, Face Off has more boats and Gina Gershon.
Conair lacks these features.
And then I guess the last thing I would want to say in terms of making a really
clear case for Face Off is, I mean, it's y'all's show.
You know what I mean?
You should pick whichever movie you want to watch again.
So you have to ask yourselves the questions.

(01:02:50):
Do you really want to watch Conair for a third time?
Do you want to visit that show?
Do you want to visit that drama on yourselves?
You have to ask yourself that question.
You know what I mean? Or do you want to watch Face Off again?
Do you want to watch John Travolta acting like Nicholas Cage?
So this movie directed by John Woo.
And we do have a scene of doves.

(01:03:12):
If you could John Woo another scene in this film, where would you put the doves?
The romantic dinner scene.
Candles are lit.
She sits down. Yeah.
Doves. When hide from that 70s show gets ripped out of the car.

(01:03:33):
Doves. He just turns into birds.
As you pull them out.
You just toss birds.
Boat through boat.
Doves. It's all it.
It was a magician's boat.
I'll say the compositing of the boat flip with them flying through the air
is the funniest fucking thing.
It's so good.

(01:03:54):
What if the doves carry them to the ground?
And that explains how they were safe. Nice.
Very nice.
I'll say that I I think they really should have made us be more uncomfortable
with the sex scenes when they're with the other person's partner.
And one of them should have involved the Prince song when doves cry

(01:04:15):
and there should have been doves at the moment of climax.
It should have been a full on like maybe seen some tits and ass like they should.
They should have pushed it farther.
What if they just replaced Nicholas Cage's dick with a dove's head and neck?
He just pulls out a dove head.
How do you know that that's not what he's got?
Yeah, it could be actually.
And that's why the wife didn't question it because that's what she's used to.

(01:04:37):
Listen, a dove's head feels the same.
So how would you feel if you were accustomed to just having a bifurcated penis
and then like you get this surgery and now you've got dove head dick?
Where did the bifurcation come from? Is this because of claspers?
I don't know. I just think it's funny.
Looks like a snake's tongue.

(01:04:59):
This is an aside from both of the films, but I'm just curious about it.
Since you all become cage experts.
I always forget that he's a part of the Coppola family.
Oh, yeah. And I wonder, is there an episode where you all have talked about that?
And I missed it because I want to hear you guys talk about that a lot.
He while putting a request in at some point for you all to dig in on the dynamics
of where he fits in the family, because they seem like Hollywood royalty to me.

(01:05:20):
And I never quite think of him as that, but he is kind.
I mean, he's separated himself so much from it intentionally.
Yeah, he had to I think two roles
that he did as Nicholas Coppola before he switched over.
It was Peggy Sue got married and well, there was Rumblefish,
but there was also his appearance in Fast Times.
Fast Times. That's what I was thinking.

(01:05:40):
And then I think originally Peggy Sue got married, but that later got changed.
Yeah. Do you know where his screen name comes from?
I don't. It's from Luke Cage, Power Man,
because he loves comic books.
Do you think that had he not gone with a screen name
and not gone to Nicholas Cage, the Coppola name would have

(01:06:00):
completely changed his career and what roles were offered to him
and available to him?
I mean, in terms of nepotism or.
I have this story in my head that Coppola equals art film.
And when I think of Cage, I think more like mass appeal.
Yeah, I think changing his name probably gave him more freedom
to just act out in the way that he is known to.

(01:06:23):
It separates him pretty, pretty thoroughly.
I like it. Yeah, me too.
Yeah, it feels like it gives him somehow more artistic breath.
Like there's some name to uphold.
Like, oh, you're a Coppola.
Like we don't act in those films.
Sorry, Sophia Coppola doesn't do that.
You know, oh, OK.
What act? You're right.
Well, that is true. Sorry, Sophia.

(01:06:44):
You're so weird.
Great director, just not teenagers are weird.
That's what it was.
Good director, good director, not a good actor. Yeah.
Last thoughts on this movie.
Fourth time watching it, like had so much fun every time I turn to this movie,
I find some something else.
If there was a character from this movie that you had to invite

(01:07:05):
to a dinner party with, say,
a weirdly religious family member, like you just have to do it.
Which character would you bring to dinner with your weirdly religious aunt?
Your cult aunt? That's such a good question, because I have so many of those.
And Midwest, baby, you got it.
The answer is that the henchmen, when they're in the like slick layer,

(01:07:28):
Castro choice slick layer before the shootout with the FBI.
Yeah, tight layer. Yeah, it's a really tight layer.
I want to hang there. And it was on the.
That's why they won the award.
Yeah. Well, maybe that award isn't such a big deal after all.
You know, what a Homer play.
But Castor Troy.
But this is John Archer speaking as Castor Troy in this moment says,

(01:07:48):
I want to take his face off.
And the bald dude who makes out with his sister isn't, you know,
because he's an idiot.
Because he's Cassavetes.
Yeah, because he makes out with his sister.
He makes poor choices. He's immediately on board.
He's like, cool, we're going to do that. It's going to be a party.
But then there's that guy in the background who there's like a pregnant pause
and he goes, how are we going to do that?

(01:08:10):
He's not afraid to ask Castor Troy the question that could get him shot in the head.
And I need someone to ask my messed up hands.
The question that nobody else in the room has the balls to ask.
Good answer.
I'd invite Thomas Jane from this movie because I want to touch his hair.
OK.
I'm going Gina Gershon.

(01:08:33):
She's so hot because they're all the same.
But Gina Gershon, she different.
It's true. And it would just be nice distraction.
Plus, I've seen what she can do in bound.
You guys watch bound. Yeah.
I would have to bring Dubov.
Oh, hell, yeah. Yeah. Dinner with the machine.
Nice. Pre or post lobotomy, Dubov.

(01:08:56):
Um, mid lobotomy.
Yeah, pre.
It's got vomit.
I've just constantly got somebody being electrocuted at the dinner table.
Yeah, that's perfect.
That's a great way to get one over on your messed up aunt.
Yeah. Make her sit next to a mid lobotomy Dubov with vomit.
Yeah. Also, Dubov is the homie.

(01:09:16):
All that Castor Troy has to say is, hey, I didn't touch your wife, man.
He immediately.
Believes them, you know. Yeah. All right. I take you for your work.
We all need a person like that.
He was now in a state of stupid.
He'd been stupid and pretty good.
OK. All right.
Face Waterfalls, dinner parties and mom complexes.

(01:09:40):
That's what you come here for.
Yeah. Face off seems to has it all.
Yeah. And dove dicks.
One more. One more abacus beads slides across.
Ding. Done. See you guys at the sequel.
Well, thank you all for being here.
Thank you guys. Yeah. What a treat.
All right. Compelling arguments from both sides.
Yeah. Thanks to all of our guests this week.

(01:10:03):
Yeah, it was really nice to see Shay and both Gary and Rock.
So our house couple couple of guests just bring it all back for round three.
Round three.
So the 16. So the 16.
So now Nick and I are going to discuss the arguments and.
Yeah, I guess we're going to just think back to like what we've heard today

(01:10:24):
and put aside our biases.
Yeah, that's going to be hard because I'm biased as hell.
Very much so.
Like I'm not here to change.
We know. Yeah.
OK, well, let's start with Shay.
So Shay's arguments where we've got a a fun kind of action campy
romp that is able to be jumped into at any moment.

(01:10:48):
Enjoy. Yeah.
Like it's you're there for the journey.
You're not there for the individual pieces or necessarily even the individual actors.
It's all just a right.
Because we've got a large ensemble in this one much more than when you have in face off.
Yeah. And so it's just about being taken forward that just sort of a summertime
summer feeling, summer love, summer block.

(01:11:10):
And then we've got Gary and Rock's vying for face off with an argument.
She went pretty deep, deeper than I would expect for this film.
But that's that's why we have Gary and Rocks.
And, you know, it's we learned how that it's edible.
Uh huh. Uh huh.
Yeah, I feel weird.

(01:11:31):
Like if I were to vote against it, am I voting against mother loving?
We'll find out.
There are some things I just don't know if I can put on like the Internet as being against yet.
So fair. I mean, for numbers alone, bifurcated penises, mother loving.
But no, they made I think they made a really strong case for this being a much better

(01:11:54):
character genre piece and just a really good front to back story.
Right. Yeah. That's also how you have to eat a peach.
The front to back for hours.
And, you know, it doesn't feel like we have fatigue from watching face off.

(01:12:16):
I know we've talked about the length of the movie.
Yeah, it is the longer of the two.
It's 220 as opposed to like 155 for Conair.
I know for me, the performance is effective.
I know for me, the performances of face off really are what sells it for me, especially when you look at Nick Cage in both films.
This face off really hinges on Nick Cage's over the top personality and his wild emotional swings,

(01:12:44):
which work really well for the character, whereas Cameron Poe is just a stoic.
He's a semi justice machine steadfast justice machine machine with a very swingy accent.
But that role could really be played by any wall of muscle for the most part.
Like, I don't think his Nicholas Cage doesn't bring any gravitas to that role other than just being huge.

(01:13:09):
That might be fair, but he also Nicholas Cage, the actor, adds charisma that I don't think any wall of muscle can necessarily pick up.
The shots of Nicholas Cage like winking back over his shoulder, the manly husband father.
I'm going to say this is the sexiest Nick Cage.

(01:13:30):
It's up there. I think Birdie is still my sexiest Nick Cage.
With the teeth removed?
No. Wait, was it Birdie or Racing with the Moon?
Yeah.
I don't know. Come gutters, Cage.
Yeah, Racing with the Moon.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely that one.
Plus, with that dance move on the bowling alley.
Yeah. And it's got Crispin Glover in it.

(01:13:52):
Oh, yeah. That adds to Nicholas Cage's sexiness.
But no, like this is a very, very attractive, mature Nicholas Cage.
This is his prime. So both movies, he's in his prime.
Yeah. I mean, it's the same year.
Like these were filmed within two years of each other.
But he's got that hair.
These are juggernaut movies for him too.
I mean, these are two of his biggest movies.

(01:14:13):
Oh, that's fair. We haven't discussed these are two thirds of the.
They're really big action films. Yeah.
It's a tough call.
It is. I know in terms of just when I sit down to watch Con Air,
any scene I watch, I'm going to enjoy.
I don't know that I enjoy it front to back.
Like I just zone in.

(01:14:34):
I just zone in and out of that film just because there's nothing really drawing me in.
Whereas face off, I really like the whole thing.
Even like my critiques of like the weird prison scene, it's still interesting.
And the performances across the board are all great.
Yeah, there are difficulties in a movie that is primarily viewed in a singular like backdrop.

(01:14:57):
Yeah. Like we've just plain is most of it.
Yeah. And I mean, it's not like it. Yeah, it does.
But not even that. I mean, we discussed in the first one, like this movie was being rewritten a lot.
That movie was being rewritten a lot. So there's a lot of sloppiness there.
That ultimately does come together better than it should.
But I can say that that's much more of a turn off your brain popcorn film

(01:15:18):
as opposed to like a good character film, which if nothing else, Nick Cage is a character.
Yeah, it's a fantastic product. Is it the better of the two?
I'm going to say yes. Yeah.
I think the package is best in Con Air.
And I think it's the most accessible for an audience.

(01:15:42):
You know, you'll never get me to bad mouth a boat chase.
And Face Off has one of the top boat chases in my life.
But I think Con Air has the people's heart.
Let's throw to the people. No.
Yeah. First episode comes down to Peter. Fuck.

(01:16:04):
Because I think I. Oh, you're voting for face.
I was voting for face. Oh, that was unclear.
Oh, I thought it was very clear. Sorry about that.
I went for the one that actually had acting in it.
So you actually said something, though, Sean, that maybe has made me flip flop,
because Gary and Rox sold me pretty well.
But you also talked about how you can jump into Con Air at any point

(01:16:27):
and kind of just be fine and face off.
You're like, the fuck? What is this thing?
Ah, man. One of these is a better movie.
One of these is more enjoyable to watch repeatedly.
Both of them are overblown.
Both of them have about 20 minutes too long.

(01:16:52):
Con Air. Cool. I love Con Air. Yeah.
Well, thank you to everybody who got us to this point.
We already have that recording. You don't need to do it again.
Yeah, but I'm going to I bought the fucking gavel.
Yeah. Thank you all for listening.
This is a new kind of experiment for us.
So hopefully you enjoyed it.

(01:17:13):
And if you want to talk with us on social media and tell us that we're stupid,
you can find us at cage underscore match underscore pod, specifically that I am stupid.
Yeah, you're stupid.
Not you, Peter, but whoever said we're stupid. You're stupid.
Yeah. Kirk. Wait. Nice.
If you'd like to see photos of all of us in tight denim with dirty white
white tank tops on and maybe some mullets.

(01:17:36):
Oh, you can go to our Patreon. Yeah.
Special thanks to our Sparkle buddies, Josh, Sean, Josie, Rico, Matt, Adam and Bill.
And to our cage dancers, Ira, John, Freeman, Lance, Nathan and Cameron.
Really love your support. Cameron Poe.
Yes, it's him. That's why I voted. Sorry.
It's biased. Fixed. It's all fixed.

(01:17:58):
And as always, two thirds of the hosts are. Hey.
All right. Have a happy face waterfall, everybody.
Right. Well, I don't like it.
Bye bye.
So I was in a tattoo shop recently getting a tattoo done,

(01:18:21):
and a woman came in and said to a visiting artist at the shop,
I want to get a tattoo of a weasel with a shrimp dick on the bottom of my foot
as a portrait of my ex so I can stop his likeness out over the next couple of years.
And so I was so she walks out and the tattoo artist draws it up while she goes

(01:18:44):
down the road for a beverage, she comes back in and he shows the drawing that he drew up
and he had the shrimp shoved into the crotch of the weasel backwards.
So is the ass of the shrimp, just the shrimp tail shrimp tail,
shrimp tail, which was bifurcated actually. Oh, perfect.
Yeah, true. That is. And she got the tat done.
So she's out there. So if you're listening to this, hit us up.
And, you know, we want to make contact, you know, good on that tattoo artist, too,

(01:19:08):
for being like this.
This sounds like something that you would do in a tattoo shop.
Like this, this sounds like something you're going to regret at some point.
But let's just go for it. We're doing it.
Full send. Put it on the foot.
And you got one as well because you were so inspired.
I did. Yeah, absolutely.
On your face, though, which is really impressive.
I didn't want to ask.