September 4, 2023 • 46 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to be a successful CEO and build an impactful personal brand? Then strap in, as I sit down with Jeff Dolan, the dynamic CEO of Wavve, who walks us through his journey and imparts hard-earned wisdom on leadership, personal branding, and more. Jeff gives us a peek into his early ambitions, the importance of sales as a leadership skill, and how respect is instrumental in business success. Let's dive into an enriching discussion about Wavve's unique mission to aid podcasters and audio creators in making their mark on social media.
As we continue our chat, Jeff dissects the CEO role and the value of life-long learning in leadership. He drives home the importance of consistency in creating content and leveraging it to mold a robust personal brand. Ever wondered how to maintain a commanding presence in Zoom calls? Jeff provides us with insightful tips, emphasizing the impact of self-assessment, confidence, and the role of health in effective leadership. He shares an intriguing analogy of a jar of water, underlining how your life choices influence the perception of others towards you.
Closing our eye-opening conversation, we traverse the hurdles of high-performance leadership and delve into strategies to eliminate performance valleys. Jeff shares his personal journey through jaw surgery and the life-changing impact it had on him, emphasizing the importance of a solid support system and faith. You wouldn't want to miss his thoughts on time travel, the concept of stacking dominoes, and their implications for goal achievement. Join us to absorb a wealth of knowledge from a leader who's been there and done that.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, it's William and welcome to today's episode of
the Catalytic Leadership podcast.
Each week, we tackle a topicrelated to the field of
leadership.
My goal is to ensure that youhave actionable steps you can
take from each episode to growin your own leadership.
Growth doesn't just happen.
My goal is to help you becomeintentional about it.
(00:37):
Each week, we spotlight leadersfrom a variety of fields,
organizations and locations.
My goal is for you to see thatleaders can be catalytic, no
matter where they are or whatthey lead.
I draw inspiration from thestories and journeys of these
leaders, and I hear from many ofyou that you do, too.
(00:57):
Let's jump into today'sinterview.
I am thrilled to have JeffDolan on the show today.
Jeff is the CEO of Wave, acloud-based platform that helps
podcasters and other audiocreators keep marketing on
social media simple.
He is a podcaster, musician andaward-winning filmmaker who
(01:18):
loves to encourage creators ofall stripes.
In 2018, he started a marketingagency that led to his exiting
corporate America and puttinginto practice all the marketing
strategies he had learned.
After three times in therevenue for one of his first
clients, he knew he couldexecute.
As CEO of Wave, he isstretching and learning new
(01:40):
skills in his quest to fulfillhis calling.
Jeff, I'm so glad you're heretoday.
Thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Thanks, william, I appreciate it.
I'd love to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I would love for you to share some of your story with
our listeners, Jeff,particularly around your journey
and your development as aleader.
How did you get started?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, well, that's a big question and I appreciate
that intro.
I've always wanted to be a CEOand I know that sounds kind of
funny, but I've always, fromwhen I was a little kid, was
like, yeah, I want to lead, Iwant to be a leader.
I guess it's because mentorsand parents and things growing
(02:22):
up they've always said you're aleader, work on leadership, and
always put me in those positions.
As I got into college and thenI started web design firm in
high school, I was kind of likethe nerd kid.
That was the first one in mytown doing websites and nobody
(02:43):
knew what that was.
I was building and so everyonethought you're going to be the
next big tech guy.
Then I got into college and thenthey had the dot-com boom.
When I was in college it waslike, oh my goodness, this is
the next, this is it.
I'm going to get my ticket toSilicon Valley and it's going to
(03:03):
be amazing.
I was a little too young, I wasa little too early and it
crashed.
I graduated right after itcrashed.
No one was getting jobs,everyone was out of business.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
It was like well, good timing, right yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Well, I guess I'm not going to be doing that.
So it was funny.
I had friends that were like,hey, I put dot-com on my
business idea.
Now they gave me a milliondollars and it's amazing, then
they were all out of businessquickly after.
Yeah, it was very eye-openingand it kind of taught me that
(03:41):
you really need to work on thebasic skills that you need to be
a leader.
The first one, absolutely handsdown, is sales.
And so I said, all right, well,if everyone is starting over
and hitting reset here, I needto just learn sales.
And it was the last thing Iwanted to learn.
(04:02):
I mean, I had friends that weregoing to work for all these
companies and I was like, whywould you ever want to do that?
I mean, just calling peoplerandomly, that seems like the
worst job ever.
So I had to swallow my prideand just say, ok, well, this is
what you need to learn.
And I also knew, because myfather was a Marine pilot, that
(04:25):
there's a kind of a meritocracyin business.
In the military, you earn yourrank right, you earn your keep,
and if you're going to be aleader, if you're going to be a
CEO, you have to have therespect of the people that are
growing your business.
So if you don't have therespect of your sales team, I
(04:47):
mean good luck, right, it'sgoing to be harder to lead,
basically.
So I kind of put two and twotogether in college and said,
all right, so I want the respectof the sales team if I'm going
to lead anything.
So I got to be the best salesguy, so I better learn how to
sell.
And so my first job was amedical software sales job out
(05:07):
of college and the CEO was avery hard hitting sales guy,
like here's how it works, here'sthe numbers to call, here's the
phone go, and he even called itthe bullpen.
He was like wow, and he lovedit.
He thought it was great, and sohe just threw all these new
(05:31):
college grads into this bullpenand we made 100 calls a day.
I mean it just was like allhands on deck, let's go.
And so I had a very interestingkind of start to my career for
sure.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
So tell me about Wave .
I know it's a SaaS company.
What does Wave do?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah.
So Wave helps podcasters andaudiobook authors and speakers
to turn their audio recordingsinto videos to share on social
media in order to grow theirinfluence.
So if you're trying to be outon social media to market your
message, your company, whateveryou're doing your music, your
book, your podcast then the bestway to do that is to give them
(06:16):
short clips of the best momentsof that longer form content than
to just drop a link or an imageor something of you know.
Hey, go check out this big longthing that you may not even be
interested in.
So we're trying to create, helpyou create trailers of your
best moments instead of.
(06:39):
You know, I think if you thinkof movies as an example, right,
they don't just share a link tothe entire movie and say, hey,
go watch this whole movie andit's like okay, like what's it
about?
Do I care?
And if you're not likeHollywood level and you don't
have like interesting specialeffects or famous actors or
whatever and your stuff, you'rejust, you know, the average
(06:59):
person.
You have a tall task to competewith everything else in the
world, right?
So what are you talking aboutthat's going to interest someone
either?
Entertainment value, selfimprovement, value, wisdom, like
.
What are you sharing that's sointeresting that they'll say,
okay, I'm going to stop thescroll and I'm going to go
(07:22):
listen to this thing.
And so we help you to kind ofstop the scroll.
That pattern break where theysay, ooh, what is this thing?
Like something's moving here.
It's a video, but it's it lookslike a quote card or maybe it's
.
I don't know what this is, whatis this thing?
And they stop and they pausefor a second and they consume
(07:44):
your kind of trailer for yourreal content, right?
And so I think, with theonslaught of social media, it's
a very noisy out there.
It's a very hard environment tocapture people, and so what
we're helping you do is forgetediting video.
Forget trying to spend a lot oftime creating this content.
You already did all the work tocreate your podcast or your
(08:06):
audio book or your music.
Let's just take a clip from it.
Put a nice image that youprobably already have, right?
You probably already did a lotof work on your album cover or
your podcast cover or your niceprofessional photo or whatever.
It is right, you probablyalready did all this work.
Let's just reuse all that andmake a video that you can put
(08:27):
across all your socials.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Brilliant.
So the question I'm sureeverybody is wondering right now
is did you bring that sameconcept from the job where you
started into Wave, like, do youhave a room of people that are
sitting there making 100 calls aday?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
No, I mean I'm sure everybody's wondering that you
know like because there's nosuch thing as a wasted
experience, right?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
You always bring your experiences forward.
So I'm just curious, you know,do you have that?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Well, you know, it's really you know it's interesting
about that question, though, soyou just made me think of it.
The purpose of doing that backthen and this is going to age me
, of course but when we werecold calling like that, there
was no social media, there wasno way to just get in front of a
(09:24):
bunch of people, right?
And so you were literallymimicking what social media does
today.
So your 100 calls are 100impressions that you're making
on social media Absolutely, 100posts.
You put that together, but youask the good question, right?
So, absolutely, the bats forsales that you're getting today
(09:48):
are actually social mediaimpressions, right?
Like, how often are you gettingin front of people with their
paid ads, free content?
How are you doing it in anorganic way, where you're
getting in front of somebody forthem to have a shot at saying
yes to you?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I love that you're taking your experience, you're
taking something that you know alot about and you're leveraging
for the benefit of other people, right for your clients.
Tell me about being a CEO forthe first time.
You always wanted to do this,right.
I mean, you were a kid.
Yeah, what's your name?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yeah, it was crazy, I think what my initial thought
was.
Finally, I made it right.
You get that kind of like yes,like I got the title, but the
title means nothing, right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I've learned that that's kind of like when you
finally get there, everyone'slike, who cares?
That means nothing, especiallytoday.
Right, you can put CEO on yourInstagram or Twitter bio or X
bio, whatever you call it.
Now you can put your you know,oh, I'm the CEO, I'm the founder
of whatever.
It's like who cares?
Nobody cares now Like big whoop.
(10:58):
So it's kind of anticlimactic.
It's like, well, you made it,but you know what's next.
But, that being said, I think itis an honor and it is a
responsibility, and I've alwaysknown that to aspire to be a
leader is really to aspire to bea servant.
So you're really serving morepeople and you're getting the
(11:22):
opportunity to serve more people, Whereas if you're an end
producer working for somebody,you are the end producer
producing the thing.
Right, You're literally servingyour boss.
I mean, you could say you'reserving your customers, but your
, your, really your primaryobjective is to your boss or
(11:43):
whoever's paying you, right.
And so when you go to the topthat kind of inverts Now your
primary objective is like yourcustomers, your, you know, your
investors, like all the peoplethat are investing into you to
get you to serve more people.
And so I think that's been ahumbling thing and it's also
(12:05):
been a I don't want to say aweight, but it's a.
It's a good pressure, it's agood responsibility to to know
that you're in a position ofserving a lot of people.
It grows your character, forsure.
It makes you make betterdecisions, wiser decisions.
It makes you think longer termabout what's good for the
(12:27):
company, while also thinkingshort term about how to survive
and how to earn.
So yeah, I've learned a lot andI've grown a lot as well in the
process.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And that, to me, is what a catalytic leader looks
like Somebody who is continuingto learn, is continuing to grow
and realizes that there is nofinish line, right, that you
never stop learning, you neverstop growing.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
When you think about content creation, you think
about your journey, but whathave you learned so far, up to
this point?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, so one of the things that's really clear is
that you have to show upconsistently online if you're
going to be relevant.
And then what that leads to isyou build a community of people
around you, right Around whatyou're saying, around what your
message is.
And if you don't show upconsistently, it's kind of like
(13:24):
you stop calling your friend oryou stop showing up for weekly
meetings or monthly meetings, oryou stop showing up in person
and all of a sudden people justkind of move on and they kind of
forget what's going on with you, right.
And so what I've realized is,if you have a business, if you
have a message, if you havesomething that you're trying to
(13:46):
do, pick a cadence that you canconsistently show up on and do
it and show up and build youraudience.
And that is kind of thestandard starting point where
you're going to take yourleadership, your message, your
(14:06):
company to the next level bystarting there, because you
can't really move the needle ifyou don't have attention and
community.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
What would you say to those who are listening?
There are a lot of founders, alot of entrepreneurs, a lot of
agency owners that are listening.
What would you say to encouragethem where they are?
Some of them still feel likethey're on the sidelines with
this thing.
I was talking to an agencyowner just last week who said,
yeah, I'm working so much forall my clients.
(14:36):
I'm really not promoting mything, my agency.
It's like the shoemaker's kidswho have no shoes right Reach it
.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
What would?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
you say to encourage people like this who feel like
they haven't really gotten inthe game yet.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I feel the same way a lot of times.
Right, there's always thatbattle between building the
company brand and building yourpersonal brand.
There's been a shift.
There's been a huge shiftactually in the market.
If you look at even what brandslike ConvertKit, they're
focused on individualinfluencers.
(15:12):
If you look at Canva in themarket, I just got an email the
other day.
They were saying hey, our newaffiliate program is only going
to work with individuals,individuals that have brands.
We're not working withcompanies.
Literally, I was shocked.
Are you kidding me?
What?
They literally cut us off.
That's it.
(15:32):
No, we want individuals.
I might need to just re-sign upas Jeff Dolan, yeah right, but
it's very interesting becausethe personal brand is becoming
more powerful as a trend,because people trust people.
They're less trusting of thegovernment.
They're less trusting of bigbrands, big companies.
(15:53):
It's very hard to stand out andtell your story if you're not
going to build your personalbrand.
A lot of agency owners andexecutives they feel that
pressure to build their personalbrand as well as their business
brand.
The other real life reason isbecause businesses don't last as
(16:13):
long as people do.
That's true Most of them.
It's very rare.
What you end up having is, ifyou build a personal brand, you
can take that as a valuableasset to whatever company you're
going to work for.
If you sell your company, youstill have your personal brand
to rebuild your next company.
It's a very interesting assetto have.
(16:36):
That I think a lot of peoplerecognize and a lot of people
want.
But how do you go about that?
How do you find the time?
How do you get in the game?
It's a very hard and difficultjourney because it forces you to
come out of hiding and tofigure out what your story is,
figure out what your message is,figure out what the value is
(16:57):
that you want to provide in theworld.
That's all hard work.
That's all inner work that youhave to do.
That's so true.
What am I doing about it?
I think I have been trying tocreate content like this.
Being on podcasts has been agreat leveraged way to make
(17:21):
content without having to spendan enormous amount of time.
That's one way you could do it.
You can use a lot of the new AItools that are coming out, A
lot of the new tools.
Just pick one.
There's so much noise out there,I think, especially for leaders
.
Gosh, we see so many stories ofpeople that, oh, this person,
(17:44):
they're making millions ofdollars and what are you doing?
Right, You're just sittingthere like man.
What am I doing?
I don't even know People goingto outer space and like what are
we doing?
I don't know, it can feel noisyand overwhelming, but just know
that if you take one step everyday toward your goal, just be
(18:05):
happy with that and be okay withthe fact that you know what.
Today, I did one thing.
I posted one piece of content.
I wrote down my superherobackstory.
This is what I'm going to workon today.
This is the one step.
Just be confident and contentin taking and making forward
(18:26):
progress.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Imagine it's a little bit different for you being a
filmmaker and being used tobeing behind the camera now
sitting in front of it.
What's that?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
like.
That is one of the big barriersthat I was just talking about.
A lot of, especially executives, a lot of us we like leading,
but we don't necessarily want toalways be in the spotlight.
A lot of us are operators.
We like doing the work, weenjoy the work.
All of a sudden, we findourselves in the spotlight and
(19:03):
it's like okay, lead us bysaying stuff on camera, in front
of the camera, Lead us by yourthought leadership, your writing
, your content you're creating.
In a world of YouTube andTikTok and all these video
platforms, you have to be oncamera.
You have to learn how to speakwell.
You have to learn how to talkwithout ums and aas and
(19:26):
you-knows, and that's very scary.
I think I don't know what thestats are now.
I'd be interested to see whatthe latest numbers are, but it
used to be before all the socialmedia stuff.
It was like public speaking wasmore scary than death.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
It still is.
It still is.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
I haven't seen any recent numbers on that.
Yeah, that's a big barrier whenyou move from being a filmmaker
behind the camera and thentrying to tell a story where
you're also on camera.
My respect for actors that areactors and directors is way high
right now, because it's easy todirect when you're behind the
(20:09):
camera and you're like I needyou to just fix this and do this
.
But then when it's yourself andyou're like, oh, hold on, get
in front of the camera now.
Why can't you act?
What's wrong with you?
You're a split personality.
You're directing and editingyourself.
I think just working onpracticing is helpful.
(20:31):
I think YouTube I'm sorry, notYouTube Zoom has helped a lot.
If you look at each Zoom likeyou're on TV, like we're tenure
being interviewed on some bignews outlet or something, that
helps Really look at the visualimage that you're presenting and
(20:53):
your background and yourlighting and what you're wearing
and how your face is and whereyou are on the screen and how
big your head is and what yourvoice sounds like.
All those things is what adirector would look at if
they're composing a film.
That's why films are beautifuland we like them as art.
Really, put your director hat onand look at what are you
(21:16):
producing.
What does it look like?
What does it sound like?
Don't critique yourself in abad way.
Just say what's one thing I canfix every time I'm on Zoom.
That's a really helpfulexercise to go through.
It's like okay and you'll hearfeedback.
You'll get on a meeting andthey're like, whoa, I like your
background, or oh, I like whatyou're doing with your lighting,
(21:38):
or oh, I like your.
You sound better today.
As you iterate and as you getbetter, it builds confidence in
you.
You'll get to a point whereit'll be fun, it'll be much
better and you'll be moreexcited about getting on video.
And then it releases thepressure and the fear of it.
(21:59):
I think just looking at it fromthat standpoint has really
helped me to overcome thatresistance to getting on camera.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
How do you stay on top of your game, Jeff?
How do you level up with newleadership skills?
You need leadership skillstoday that you did not need five
years ago.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
How do?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
you keep leveling up.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah, it definitely is the people you surround
yourself with, and so you becomelike the people you surround
yourself with.
I know that's kind of a tritesaying now, especially as I've
surrounded myself with leaders.
You definitely need the rightpodcasts, you need the right
books, you need to be analyzingwhat are all your inputs,
(22:48):
because your inputs kind of leadyour outputs and so if your
inputs are not leadership, notgood, not growth, not, you know,
they're just negative or thenit's going to come out in your
life, it's going to lead to badhabits.
I think, also, having yourhealth be a pillar of your kind
(23:11):
of routine is very helpful,because you don't want your
health to get in the way, andI've seen a lot of people where
they got everything going forthem, they're doing all the
right things, but I'm sick, Ihurt myself or I strained this
or I pulled this, or I got to goto the doctor again, or I got
(23:34):
indigestion or I'm stressed ormy mental health is not right or
whatever.
All those things are justpreventing you from taking steps
forward.
You want to take that off thetable.
That's a non-negotiable.
Health is a non-negotiable Getthat right.
That's why you see a lot ofleaders that are talking about
health, because there's a reasonfor that.
It helps them perform, it helpsthem get to the next level.
(23:57):
If you're well rested, if youslept really good, if you didn't
have a fight with yoursignificant other, if you're
doing well and yourrelationships are intact, I mean
wow, you can show up and youcan be joyful and you can be
happy and you can enjoy what youdo and everybody's going to be
happy around you.
That's the kind of environmentthat you want to create for
(24:19):
yourself and for your people.
I think those are huge thingsthat I've really worked on to
get to a point where it's like,okay, now that I've done all
that, what are the inputs thebooks, the podcast, the friends,
the mentors that I can havepour into me to then give me
those next level ideas and helpme grow and look at things
(24:41):
differently?
That's what I would encouragesomebody is just analyze all
your inputs, including your foodand things like that, but also
your mind.
You know now what are youdigesting and then that should,
over time, change your outlook.
(25:02):
And this really awesome examplethat I've seen is and I don't
know if I was at Boy Scout Campor maybe in church or something
I saw this analogy, but this isa fascinating analogy.
The problem was presented.
They did this experiment.
They said, okay, everybody,we've got this jar of water
(25:24):
right.
And they said we're going to.
And they had like probably 30different canisters of stuff on
the table in front of the wholeroom and they said, all right,
this first one we have is thisis battery acid and we're going
to pour this in the water.
And then we have what's thenext one?
We got hot sauce and they putthat you know, this is dirt,
(25:45):
we're going to put this in.
You know, this one is, you know, whatever, all this nasty stuff
, mustard ketchup, I mean.
By the time they were done withit it was like a black muck of
just nastiness, right.
And they said, who in theaudience is going to come up
here and drink this?
And of course, no one, no one.
And then some guy in the backyou know, that is a plant, you
(26:11):
know raises his hand and saysI'll drink it.
And everyone's like no, there'sno way.
And in this analogy, the reasonI'm bringing this up is because
we are the, we are the person,right, we are the person and our
audience is determining.
Are we going to drink from thisperson?
Are we going to accept thecontent or or whatever from this
person?
Are they toxic or not?
(26:32):
And so if we let all thesetoxic things in our life and we
become this really muddy, nastywater, nobody is going to want
to be a part of our life ordrink anything that we're, you
know, putting out right.
And so we got this nasty, muckything and the guy in the back
is like I'm going to drink it.
And so the whole audience leansin and they're like there's no
way this guy is going to drinkall this I mean he'll die Like
(26:55):
it's like nasty, and there wassome stuff in there they put in
there that I won't mention, butit's nasty.
So so everyone's leaning in andhe gets up there and he, he
picks it up like he's going todrink it, and then he's like ah,
and everyone's like ah, we knewyou weren't going to drink it.
But then he puts it on thetable and he takes a pure
distilled water, like a biggallon of it, and he starts
(27:17):
pouring it into the, into thecup of all this nasty, toxic
stuff.
And he as he pours it, itstarts overflowing and all the
toxic stuff starts clearing out.
And by the time he's donepouring this jug of distilled
water, the entire toxic glass ofwater is now clear.
And then he picks it up and hedrinks it and everyone is just
(27:42):
like what, what?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
That's so good.
Yeah, what are you putting in?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
What are you putting in that's?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
so good man.
I love that.
You know leadership is not justabout the, the highlight reel.
You know every leader.
I know experiences, not justthe hamo, it's not just the
mountaintops but also thechallenges.
What are some of the challengesthat you have faced in your
journey so far?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, that's a really good one.
Yeah, babe, echard has a reallygood that was book and a bunch
of teachings on this about highperformance.
And so if you're a highperformance leader, what it
means is you are consistentlyperforming at a high level,
meaning you're not the kind ofperson that has a really high
(28:35):
high and a really low low andyou're jumping between the two
and you're going from peak tovalley and you're really
struggling and you're trying toaverage out to be going up.
What he's found is that highperformers can figure out how to
make their valleys reallyshallow and they stay at this
really high level of performance, and so that's something that
(28:57):
I've really tried to strive for.
But what that means is you haveto eliminate the things in your
life that can cause the valleysright, and so when you do that
audit I was talking about ofyour health, that's one of the
areas that people can reallyhave these big valleys.
Now there's things in your lifethat happen that you just can't.
(29:19):
You can't fix right.
People die, you get sick.
I know in my life one of thebig things that happened was I
had periodontal disease and itwas very hard because I had
never had a cavity in my life.
I had always flossed every day,faithful, right, but not to get
(29:45):
too personal.
But I went vegan for five toseven years like full vegan and
I was already gluten free beforethat.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Oh man.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
So I was a gluten free vegan.
It's super hard to do, right,it's super hard to do, I would
think, but I had to give it upbecause when I finally figured
out what was going on with me,as a vegan, you are trying to
get calories right and so youcan eat as many vegetables as
(30:13):
you want Well, you can also eatas many, as much rice and oats
and things like that as you wantto, because that's technically
a vegetable to satiate.
And so what was happening is Iwas getting in a situation where
I was, I had too many carbs,right, and those carbs were
translating into, you know, badbacteria in your gut and your
(30:37):
mouth and causing periodontaldisease.
My dentist did not even mentionit, didn't even catch it, which
angers me to the core rightAbout some of the things.
But yeah, they came out therelike whoops.
Well, it's been seven years,it's been growing, we didn't
know, we didn't catch it.
And so now you know there'ssome things we gotta do and do
some surgery on your mouth andmy jaw, essentially, was
(31:01):
changing the structure becauseit was eating underneath my gum
line, oh my goodness.
And so they had.
I had to do a jaw surgery,basically, and fix a lot of the
structure stuff, and so I had mymouth wired shut.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
It was horrible.
Man Eating through a straw isjust not fun.
No, so yeah, all this stuffhappened personally and you know
it was funny.
Like you see all these peopleon Instagram and they're living
their best life and you have noidea what they're going through.
Right, you don't know theirpersonal struggles, all the
things they're going through.
I've talked to so many friends.
They're going through divorce,they're going through mental
(31:40):
health issues, they're goingthrough financial difficulties.
They're kids.
You know we had a neighbor theother day.
They're like eight month old.
Son died right.
Just crazy stuff.
And then you have to go to workand you have to smile and you
gotta you know hey, look at me,or whatever.
It's okay.
I mean, you're gonna havevalues.
(32:01):
You're gonna have things thatjust hurt, that are really low,
but you can only control yourreaction to those things, right.
You can only control how am Igonna react, how am I gonna act
with my mindset, how am I gonnashow up even in the midst of
those things?
And so a real leader is goingto figure out others first,
(32:25):
right, like take care ofyourself.
But others first, like how do Ishow up for others?
Yes, it's hard, but they mightbe going through something and
they need you to show up.
They need you to show up in apositive way, because they're
going through something thatmight be way worse than what
you're going through.
And so if you can kind of getout of your own head and
(32:46):
empathize with others and say,hey, you know they are probably
going through something worseand so how can I show up for
them, Then that really gets youbeyond yourself, back into that
servant leader mindset where youcan show up even when you're
going through those valleys, andso that really helps you even
out your performance because youdon't go to those lows, you
(33:09):
don't let yourself go into thosedark areas where you can't pull
out of it.
And then I think the other sideof that, too, is life will
inevitably throw those superhard things at you where you
can't do what I just said, right, like you just absolutely are
destroyed and you cannot show up, you cannot have a positive
(33:31):
anything, and that's okay too,right, and I think in that
instance, a true leader wouldmitigate your downside risk is
what it's called in investing,right?
How do you have a supportstructure in place to catch you
when you go that low, when youhit rock bottom?
Who is there?
Do you have a family member?
(33:52):
Do you have a friend?
Do you have a wife?
Do you have a husband?
Do you have you know who is inyour life that you're gonna fall
into the arms of?
Basically, like your faith,right, do you have a faith?
Do you have a belief in God ora higher power, like, who is
gonna be there to support youwhen you're at your rock bottom?
(34:13):
And that will also help you,because what's the alternative?
The alternative is you devolveinto, you know, just checking
out of life for a long time, andthen your value is so low that
it takes you so much longer toget out of that.
To get to that peak again, itmight be years, right, and you
(34:35):
might be so low and so trying tostruggle and get out of it that
you just don't.
And then are you really, youknow, gonna be where you wanna
be in life?
Probably not.
So I think that's some of thethings that you know I've dealt
with and how I've gotten out ofthat.
But, yeah, just trying to havethat support structure in place,
keeping the lows as leveled asyou can.
(34:59):
And likewise, you know it'sinteresting I have not had as
many peaks as a lot of peoplethat obviously you see online
and I think we all can identifywith that as like, wow, this
person's just knocking it out ofthe park a thousand percent
(35:19):
here.
I don't know if I'm always onthe peak like all these people,
but you know that's a falsething and I'm joking, but I
don't think that.
Well, I do think you have tomitigate against your peaks as
well.
In other words, when you havesomething, go super well in your
favor, like, stay humble anddon't let that thing really take
(35:40):
you to the super high peak,like where you're just
unstoppable.
I'm like gonna brag and I'mjust up here and look at me and
like you can't do that either,cause then your peaks get so
high that now you can fallpretty far yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
So, yeah, that's so good man, I think that's so
helpful.
You know, to talk aboutmitigating the downturn, that's
one thing, but mitigating thepeaks, yes.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
That's really good.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Yeah, because, think about it, you're not technically
a high performer if your peaksare so high, but then you crash
back down to like some normallevel, that's not even close.
So you're just going from likehigh to like crazy high, but
you're still, you know, going upand down.
Up and down.
It's like, well, that's stillnot good either, really good.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
I think that's helpful.
I'm curious, like, if you goback and talk to yourself,
you're 22 years old, knowingwhat you know.
Now, what would you love to goback and tell yourself?
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Yeah, other than all the stock market advice,
probably.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat we can go back and say I
would have, should have, couldhave.
Yeah, I think there's a lot ofthings that you know we made
(37:10):
decisions on that we that mighthave led to a different life,
right?
I'm trying to think of themovie.
It's called like Just in Time.
I think it's kind of an unknownmovie, but it's got Rachel
Adams in it, the notebookactress, and it's this story
(37:33):
about this family that has timetravel in their family.
Like it's like a skill thatthey have or something, this
gift that they have.
And one of the interesting notto give away the story, but one
of the interesting plot pointsis like he ends up traveling
back in time and makingdifferent decisions, but then
(37:54):
they alter his children.
So like he comes back to hispresent day and his kids are
different, because you know howit works out.
It just that was a differentegg and sperm that got together,
right, so a lot of the thingswere kind of the same, but like
his kids were completelydifferent kids, right, and so
(38:18):
just because of the decisionsand stuff, so like you think,
yes, I would go back and makethese different decisions, but
you'd be a completely differentperson now, right, and so you're
.
Really it's a fun exercise totalk about, but really you can't
, you wouldn't.
Even if you had the choice toand you saw what you would be,
(38:40):
you might not wanna do it, andthat's what in the movie, that's
what this guy ended up decidingLike, actually I don't want to
do this, right, and so I thinkI'm very much content with you,
know my life and the decisionsI've made.
However, what advice would Igive?
I would say, go deeper on onething, and I think that's where
(39:08):
and this is unique to peoplethat are multi-talented and
multi-interested in differentthings, like I was, like I am we
have a tendency to be jack ofall trades, master of none.
It's a certain personality ofleaders, right, we're very much
generalists in jack of alltrades because we just that's
(39:29):
our makeup, that's what we liketo do, and so, but when you're
first starting off and you'renot a leader and you're trying
to build a skill set, my advicewould be to double down on that
skill set.
Get really good at one thing andget really focused on it,
because that is gonna be thelever or the building block
that's gonna get you tosomething bigger and better,
(39:50):
whereas I took this approach ofno, I'm just gonna be good at
everything I can and then,slowly, I'm gonna build this
pyramid right and it's just.
I'm gonna just be wide, widewide, an inch deep, but a mile
wide, and I'm just gonna keepbuilding this pyramid until I
get to some level where otherpeople are just like no, I'm
just gonna build a skyscraperright here on one inch straight
(40:12):
up, maybe, rock it past you andyou're like wait a minute, how
are you doing that?
And maybe that's just grass isgreener on the other side.
But I really think that whenyou're younger and you're not a
leader, it helps you if you canfocus more.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
I think that's fantastic advice.
It's her book that has made adifference in your journey, One
that you would recommend thatevery leader listening I give
you add a book to your list thissummer.
This is the book.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Yes, absolutely.
I would say the one thing forsure.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Oh it's a great book.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, the one.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
And your theme with what you've been talking about.
That's so good man.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, yeah, the one thing so, yeah, I would say the
reason that book changed so muchabout how I think about
business and leadership isbecause there's one concept
specifically that I kind ofdidn't really recognize as
significant until I got into theCEO role, which is the concept
(41:16):
of the dominoes.
And so there's a concept in thebook that talks about stacking
your dominoes, and there's aphysics lesson in it where you
can take a domino and I'm gonnaget this wrong but it's
something like 2.5% or three Iforget what the ratio is but a
(41:37):
domino can hit over, in otherwords, it can knock over a
domino that's much larger thanitself.
And so if you take the thingsyou're trying to accomplish and
you go backward from the bigdomino, so if you take a domino
and you say I wanna accomplish,I wanna win an Oscar or whatever
, then if that's your big domino, then you can go backward from
(41:57):
there and have smaller dominoesthat can achieve that next
domino.
So if you're like, okay, Iwanna win an Oscar, well, what
do I need to do to do that?
Well, I need to probably starin a A-list movie.
Well, how am I gonna do that?
Well, how do I start an A-listmovie.
Well, I gotta be good at actingand I probably gotta be a star
in a really small movie.
(42:18):
It's like, okay, well, how do wedo that?
Well, probably need to learnhow to act and probably need to
do that.
Okay, well, how do you do that?
Well, I probably need to moveto an area where I'm around
people that know how to act andI need to invest in myself and I
need to get around to directorsand writers.
Okay, well, how do you do that?
Well, probably need to move outof my small town and go
(42:40):
somewhere.
Well, maybe I need to startflying around the country and
meeting some people.
Okay, well, how do I do that?
Well, I probably should get ajob so I can afford to go fly
and meet these people and investin myself.
Okay, well, how do I get a job?
Well, I probably need to get adegree and learn something.
Well, how do I do that?
Well, I probably need right.
(43:00):
So you get all these dominoesand you think about it like the
only thing.
The one thing that you need tofocus on is that next domino.
That's it, and the reason thatdidn't really click was because
the master of everything conceptis that you put some eggs in
about 500 baskets.
All this spread out anddiversified, and you know all
(43:24):
these things and you're doingall these things.
You got all these littlebusinesses going right, but your
energy, your attention, yourfocus is spread out so far that
you cannot accomplish anything.
And it's like having a millionlittle dominoes that can't even
knock over anything, right, andso you just can't make progress.
(43:44):
And so then, but the whole timeyou're looking at that one
domino that's impossible toknock down and you have no
leverage or ability to everknock it down, and so it won't
ever happen.
You'll just be dreaming andputting all your eggs in 500
baskets.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
That's so good.
I love that picture, man.
That's so helpful.
I know people are gonna wannastay connected with you.
What is the best way for themto do that?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Yeah, so you can go to jeffdolancom.
That's my home base and I tryto be active on social media.
So I'm active on most socialmedia as Jeff Dolan.
And then for Wave you can go towaveco, w-a-v-v-eco, and I do
(44:32):
write two times a week there onsocial media and podcasting and
marketing.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Fantastic.
I'm gonna be going over thereright now to sign up.
Cool, Jeff.
Thank you again.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
It was a pleasure, William.
I really appreciate it.
Really good questions too.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Thanks for joining me for this episode today.
As we wrap up, I'd love for youto do two things.
First, subscribe to thispodcast so you don't miss an
episode, and if you find valuehere, I'd love it if you would
rate it and review it.
That really does make adifference in helping other
people to discover this podcast.
Second, if you don't have acopy of my newest book,
(45:12):
catalytic Leadership, I'd loveto put a copy in your hands.
If you go tocatalyticleadershipbookcom, you
can get a copy for free.
Just pay the shipping so I canget it to you and we'll get one
right out.
My goal is to put this into thehands of as many leaders as
possible.
This book captures principlesthat I've learned in 20 plus
(45:34):
years of coaching leaders in theentrepreneurial space, in
business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church
.
You can also connect with me onLinkedIn to keep up with what
I'm currently learning andthinking about.
If you're ready to take a nextstep with a coach to help you
intentionally grow and thrive asa leader, I'd be honored to
(45:56):
help you.
Just go tocatalyticleadershipnet to book a
call with me.
Stay tuned for our next episodenext week.
Until then, as always, leaderschoose to be catalytic.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr
William Attaway.
Be sure to subscribe whereveryou listen to podcasts so you
don't miss the next episode.
Want more?
Go to catalyticleadershipnet.
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, it's William and welcome to today's episode of
the Catalytic Leadership podcast.
Each week, we tackle a topicrelated to the field of
leadership.
My goal is to ensure that youhave actionable steps you can
take from each episode to growin your own leadership.
Growth doesn't just happen.
My goal is to help you becomeintentional about it.
(00:37):
Each week, we spotlight leadersfrom a variety of fields,
organizations and locations.
My goal is for you to see thatleaders can be catalytic, no
matter where they are or whatthey lead.
I draw inspiration from thestories and journeys of these
leaders, and I hear from many ofyou that you do, too.
(00:57):
Let's jump into today'sinterview.
I am thrilled to have JeffDolan on the show today.
Jeff is the CEO of Wave, acloud-based platform that helps
podcasters and other audiocreators keep marketing on
social media simple.
He is a podcaster, musician andaward-winning filmmaker who
(01:18):
loves to encourage creators ofall stripes.
In 2018, he started a marketingagency that led to his exiting
corporate America and puttinginto practice all the marketing
strategies he had learned.
After three times in therevenue for one of his first
clients, he knew he couldexecute.
As CEO of Wave, he isstretching and learning new
(01:40):
skills in his quest to fulfillhis calling.
Jeff, I'm so glad you're heretoday.
Thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Thanks, william, I appreciate it.
I'd love to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I would love for you to share some of your story with
our listeners, Jeff,particularly around your journey
and your development as aleader.
How did you get started?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, well, that's a big question and I appreciate
that intro.
I've always wanted to be a CEOand I know that sounds kind of
funny, but I've always, fromwhen I was a little kid, was
like, yeah, I want to lead, Iwant to be a leader.
I guess it's because mentorsand parents and things growing
(02:22):
up they've always said you're aleader, work on leadership, and
always put me in those positions.
As I got into college and thenI started web design firm in
high school, I was kind of likethe nerd kid.
That was the first one in mytown doing websites and nobody
(02:43):
knew what that was.
I was building and so everyonethought you're going to be the
next big tech guy.
Then I got into college and thenthey had the dot-com boom.
When I was in college it waslike, oh my goodness, this is
the next, this is it.
I'm going to get my ticket toSilicon Valley and it's going to
(03:03):
be amazing.
I was a little too young, I wasa little too early and it
crashed.
I graduated right after itcrashed.
No one was getting jobs,everyone was out of business.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
It was like well, good timing, right yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Well, I guess I'm not going to be doing that.
So it was funny.
I had friends that were like,hey, I put dot-com on my
business idea.
Now they gave me a milliondollars and it's amazing, then
they were all out of businessquickly after.
Yeah, it was very eye-openingand it kind of taught me that
(03:41):
you really need to work on thebasic skills that you need to be
a leader.
The first one, absolutely handsdown, is sales.
And so I said, all right, well,if everyone is starting over
and hitting reset here, I needto just learn sales.
And it was the last thing Iwanted to learn.
(04:02):
I mean, I had friends that weregoing to work for all these
companies and I was like, whywould you ever want to do that?
I mean, just calling peoplerandomly, that seems like the
worst job ever.
So I had to swallow my prideand just say, ok, well, this is
what you need to learn.
And I also knew, because myfather was a Marine pilot, that
(04:25):
there's a kind of a meritocracyin business.
In the military, you earn yourrank right, you earn your keep,
and if you're going to be aleader, if you're going to be a
CEO, you have to have therespect of the people that are
growing your business.
So if you don't have therespect of your sales team, I
(04:47):
mean good luck, right, it'sgoing to be harder to lead,
basically.
So I kind of put two and twotogether in college and said,
all right, so I want the respectof the sales team if I'm going
to lead anything.
So I got to be the best salesguy, so I better learn how to
sell.
And so my first job was amedical software sales job out
(05:07):
of college and the CEO was avery hard hitting sales guy,
like here's how it works, here'sthe numbers to call, here's the
phone go, and he even called itthe bullpen.
He was like wow, and he lovedit.
He thought it was great, and sohe just threw all these new
(05:31):
college grads into this bullpenand we made 100 calls a day.
I mean it just was like allhands on deck, let's go.
And so I had a very interestingkind of start to my career for
sure.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
So tell me about Wave .
I know it's a SaaS company.
What does Wave do?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah.
So Wave helps podcasters andaudiobook authors and speakers
to turn their audio recordingsinto videos to share on social
media in order to grow theirinfluence.
So if you're trying to be outon social media to market your
message, your company, whateveryou're doing your music, your
book, your podcast then the bestway to do that is to give them
(06:16):
short clips of the best momentsof that longer form content than
to just drop a link or an imageor something of you know.
Hey, go check out this big longthing that you may not even be
interested in.
So we're trying to create, helpyou create trailers of your
best moments instead of.
(06:39):
You know, I think if you thinkof movies as an example, right,
they don't just share a link tothe entire movie and say, hey,
go watch this whole movie andit's like okay, like what's it
about?
Do I care?
And if you're not likeHollywood level and you don't
have like interesting specialeffects or famous actors or
whatever and your stuff, you'rejust, you know, the average
(06:59):
person.
You have a tall task to competewith everything else in the
world, right?
So what are you talking aboutthat's going to interest someone
either?
Entertainment value, selfimprovement, value, wisdom, like
.
What are you sharing that's sointeresting that they'll say,
okay, I'm going to stop thescroll and I'm going to go
(07:22):
listen to this thing.
And so we help you to kind ofstop the scroll.
That pattern break where theysay, ooh, what is this thing?
Like something's moving here.
It's a video, but it's it lookslike a quote card or maybe it's
.
I don't know what this is, whatis this thing?
And they stop and they pausefor a second and they consume
(07:44):
your kind of trailer for yourreal content, right?
And so I think, with theonslaught of social media, it's
a very noisy out there.
It's a very hard environment tocapture people, and so what
we're helping you do is forgetediting video.
Forget trying to spend a lot oftime creating this content.
You already did all the work tocreate your podcast or your
(08:06):
audio book or your music.
Let's just take a clip from it.
Put a nice image that youprobably already have, right?
You probably already did a lotof work on your album cover or
your podcast cover or your niceprofessional photo or whatever.
It is right, you probablyalready did all this work.
Let's just reuse all that andmake a video that you can put
(08:27):
across all your socials.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Brilliant.
So the question I'm sureeverybody is wondering right now
is did you bring that sameconcept from the job where you
started into Wave, like, do youhave a room of people that are
sitting there making 100 calls aday?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
No, I mean I'm sure everybody's wondering that you
know like because there's nosuch thing as a wasted
experience, right?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
You always bring your experiences forward.
So I'm just curious, you know,do you have that?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Well, you know, it's really you know it's interesting
about that question, though, soyou just made me think of it.
The purpose of doing that backthen and this is going to age me
, of course but when we werecold calling like that, there
was no social media, there wasno way to just get in front of a
(09:24):
bunch of people, right?
And so you were literallymimicking what social media does
today.
So your 100 calls are 100impressions that you're making
on social media Absolutely, 100posts.
You put that together, but youask the good question, right?
So, absolutely, the bats forsales that you're getting today
(09:48):
are actually social mediaimpressions, right?
Like, how often are you gettingin front of people with their
paid ads, free content?
How are you doing it in anorganic way, where you're
getting in front of somebody forthem to have a shot at saying
yes to you?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I love that you're taking your experience, you're
taking something that you know alot about and you're leveraging
for the benefit of other people, right for your clients.
Tell me about being a CEO forthe first time.
You always wanted to do this,right.
I mean, you were a kid.
Yeah, what's your name?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yeah, it was crazy, I think what my initial thought
was.
Finally, I made it right.
You get that kind of like yes,like I got the title, but the
title means nothing, right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:35):
exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I've learned that that's kind of like when you
finally get there, everyone'slike, who cares?
That means nothing, especiallytoday.
Right, you can put CEO on yourInstagram or Twitter bio or X
bio, whatever you call it.
Now you can put your you know,oh, I'm the CEO, I'm the founder
of whatever.
It's like who cares?
Nobody cares now Like big whoop.
(10:58):
So it's kind of anticlimactic.
It's like, well, you made it,but you know what's next.
But, that being said, I think itis an honor and it is a
responsibility, and I've alwaysknown that to aspire to be a
leader is really to aspire to bea servant.
So you're really serving morepeople and you're getting the
(11:22):
opportunity to serve more people, Whereas if you're an end
producer working for somebody,you are the end producer
producing the thing.
Right, You're literally servingyour boss.
I mean, you could say you'reserving your customers, but your
, your, really your primaryobjective is to your boss or
(11:43):
whoever's paying you, right.
And so when you go to the topthat kind of inverts Now your
primary objective is like yourcustomers, your, you know, your
investors, like all the peoplethat are investing into you to
get you to serve more people.
And so I think that's been ahumbling thing and it's also
(12:05):
been a I don't want to say aweight, but it's a.
It's a good pressure, it's agood responsibility to to know
that you're in a position ofserving a lot of people.
It grows your character, forsure.
It makes you make betterdecisions, wiser decisions.
It makes you think longer termabout what's good for the
(12:27):
company, while also thinkingshort term about how to survive
and how to earn.
So yeah, I've learned a lot andI've grown a lot as well in the
process.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And that, to me, is what a catalytic leader looks
like Somebody who is continuingto learn, is continuing to grow
and realizes that there is nofinish line, right, that you
never stop learning, you neverstop growing.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
When you think about content creation, you think
about your journey, but whathave you learned so far, up to
this point?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, so one of the things that's really clear is
that you have to show upconsistently online if you're
going to be relevant.
And then what that leads to isyou build a community of people
around you, right Around whatyou're saying, around what your
message is.
And if you don't show upconsistently, it's kind of like
(13:24):
you stop calling your friend oryou stop showing up for weekly
meetings or monthly meetings, oryou stop showing up in person
and all of a sudden people justkind of move on and they kind of
forget what's going on with you, right.
And so what I've realized is,if you have a business, if you
have a message, if you havesomething that you're trying to
(13:46):
do, pick a cadence that you canconsistently show up on and do
it and show up and build youraudience.
And that is kind of thestandard starting point where
you're going to take yourleadership, your message, your
(14:06):
company to the next level bystarting there, because you
can't really move the needle ifyou don't have attention and
community.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
What would you say to those who are listening?
There are a lot of founders, alot of entrepreneurs, a lot of
agency owners that are listening.
What would you say to encouragethem where they are?
Some of them still feel likethey're on the sidelines with
this thing.
I was talking to an agencyowner just last week who said,
yeah, I'm working so much forall my clients.
(14:36):
I'm really not promoting mything, my agency.
It's like the shoemaker's kidswho have no shoes right Reach it
.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
What would?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
you say to encourage people like this who feel like
they haven't really gotten inthe game yet.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I feel the same way a lot of times.
Right, there's always thatbattle between building the
company brand and building yourpersonal brand.
There's been a shift.
There's been a huge shiftactually in the market.
If you look at even what brandslike ConvertKit, they're
focused on individualinfluencers.
(15:12):
If you look at Canva in themarket, I just got an email the
other day.
They were saying hey, our newaffiliate program is only going
to work with individuals,individuals that have brands.
We're not working withcompanies.
Literally, I was shocked.
Are you kidding me?
What?
They literally cut us off.
That's it.
(15:32):
No, we want individuals.
I might need to just re-sign upas Jeff Dolan, yeah right, but
it's very interesting becausethe personal brand is becoming
more powerful as a trend,because people trust people.
They're less trusting of thegovernment.
They're less trusting of bigbrands, big companies.
(15:53):
It's very hard to stand out andtell your story if you're not
going to build your personalbrand.
A lot of agency owners andexecutives they feel that
pressure to build their personalbrand as well as their business
brand.
The other real life reason isbecause businesses don't last as
(16:13):
long as people do.
That's true Most of them.
It's very rare.
What you end up having is, ifyou build a personal brand, you
can take that as a valuableasset to whatever company you're
going to work for.
If you sell your company, youstill have your personal brand
to rebuild your next company.
It's a very interesting assetto have.
(16:36):
That I think a lot of peoplerecognize and a lot of people
want.
But how do you go about that?
How do you find the time?
How do you get in the game?
It's a very hard and difficultjourney because it forces you to
come out of hiding and tofigure out what your story is,
figure out what your message is,figure out what the value is
(16:57):
that you want to provide in theworld.
That's all hard work.
That's all inner work that youhave to do.
That's so true.
What am I doing about it?
I think I have been trying tocreate content like this.
Being on podcasts has been agreat leveraged way to make
(17:21):
content without having to spendan enormous amount of time.
That's one way you could do it.
You can use a lot of the new AItools that are coming out, A
lot of the new tools.
Just pick one.
There's so much noise out there,I think, especially for leaders
.
Gosh, we see so many stories ofpeople that, oh, this person,
(17:44):
they're making millions ofdollars and what are you doing?
Right, You're just sittingthere like man.
What am I doing?
I don't even know People goingto outer space and like what are
we doing?
I don't know, it can feel noisyand overwhelming, but just know
that if you take one step everyday toward your goal, just be
(18:05):
happy with that and be okay withthe fact that you know what.
Today, I did one thing.
I posted one piece of content.
I wrote down my superherobackstory.
This is what I'm going to workon today.
This is the one step.
Just be confident and contentin taking and making forward
(18:26):
progress.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Imagine it's a little bit different for you being a
filmmaker and being used tobeing behind the camera now
sitting in front of it.
What's that?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
like.
That is one of the big barriersthat I was just talking about.
A lot of, especially executives, a lot of us we like leading,
but we don't necessarily want toalways be in the spotlight.
A lot of us are operators.
We like doing the work, weenjoy the work.
All of a sudden, we findourselves in the spotlight and
(19:03):
it's like okay, lead us bysaying stuff on camera, in front
of the camera, Lead us by yourthought leadership, your writing
, your content you're creating.
In a world of YouTube andTikTok and all these video
platforms, you have to be oncamera.
You have to learn how to speakwell.
You have to learn how to talkwithout ums and aas and
(19:26):
you-knows, and that's very scary.
I think I don't know what thestats are now.
I'd be interested to see whatthe latest numbers are, but it
used to be before all the socialmedia stuff.
It was like public speaking wasmore scary than death.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
It still is.
It still is.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
I haven't seen any recent numbers on that.
Yeah, that's a big barrier whenyou move from being a filmmaker
behind the camera and thentrying to tell a story where
you're also on camera.
My respect for actors that areactors and directors is way high
right now, because it's easy todirect when you're behind the
(20:09):
camera and you're like I needyou to just fix this and do this
.
But then when it's yourself andyou're like, oh, hold on, get
in front of the camera now.
Why can't you act?
What's wrong with you?
You're a split personality.
You're directing and editingyourself.
I think just working onpracticing is helpful.
(20:31):
I think YouTube I'm sorry, notYouTube Zoom has helped a lot.
If you look at each Zoom likeyou're on TV, like we're tenure
being interviewed on some bignews outlet or something, that
helps Really look at the visualimage that you're presenting and
(20:53):
your background and yourlighting and what you're wearing
and how your face is and whereyou are on the screen and how
big your head is and what yourvoice sounds like.
All those things is what adirector would look at if
they're composing a film.
That's why films are beautifuland we like them as art.
Really, put your director hat onand look at what are you
(21:16):
producing.
What does it look like?
What does it sound like?
Don't critique yourself in abad way.
Just say what's one thing I canfix every time I'm on Zoom.
That's a really helpfulexercise to go through.
It's like okay and you'll hearfeedback.
You'll get on a meeting andthey're like, whoa, I like your
background, or oh, I like whatyou're doing with your lighting,
(21:38):
or oh, I like your.
You sound better today.
As you iterate and as you getbetter, it builds confidence in
you.
You'll get to a point whereit'll be fun, it'll be much
better and you'll be moreexcited about getting on video.
And then it releases thepressure and the fear of it.
(21:59):
I think just looking at it fromthat standpoint has really
helped me to overcome thatresistance to getting on camera.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
How do you stay on top of your game, Jeff?
How do you level up with newleadership skills?
You need leadership skillstoday that you did not need five
years ago.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
How do?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
you keep leveling up.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah, it definitely is the people you surround
yourself with, and so you becomelike the people you surround
yourself with.
I know that's kind of a tritesaying now, especially as I've
surrounded myself with leaders.
You definitely need the rightpodcasts, you need the right
books, you need to be analyzingwhat are all your inputs,
(22:48):
because your inputs kind of leadyour outputs and so if your
inputs are not leadership, notgood, not growth, not, you know,
they're just negative or thenit's going to come out in your
life, it's going to lead to badhabits.
I think, also, having yourhealth be a pillar of your kind
(23:11):
of routine is very helpful,because you don't want your
health to get in the way, andI've seen a lot of people where
they got everything going forthem, they're doing all the
right things, but I'm sick, Ihurt myself or I strained this
or I pulled this, or I got to goto the doctor again, or I got
(23:34):
indigestion or I'm stressed ormy mental health is not right or
whatever.
All those things are justpreventing you from taking steps
forward.
You want to take that off thetable.
That's a non-negotiable.
Health is a non-negotiable Getthat right.
That's why you see a lot ofleaders that are talking about
health, because there's a reasonfor that.
It helps them perform, it helpsthem get to the next level.
(23:57):
If you're well rested, if youslept really good, if you didn't
have a fight with yoursignificant other, if you're
doing well and yourrelationships are intact, I mean
wow, you can show up and youcan be joyful and you can be
happy and you can enjoy what youdo and everybody's going to be
happy around you.
That's the kind of environmentthat you want to create for
(24:19):
yourself and for your people.
I think those are huge thingsthat I've really worked on to
get to a point where it's like,okay, now that I've done all
that, what are the inputs thebooks, the podcast, the friends,
the mentors that I can havepour into me to then give me
those next level ideas and helpme grow and look at things
(24:41):
differently?
That's what I would encouragesomebody is just analyze all
your inputs, including your foodand things like that, but also
your mind.
You know now what are youdigesting and then that should,
over time, change your outlook.
(25:02):
And this really awesome examplethat I've seen is and I don't
know if I was at Boy Scout Campor maybe in church or something
I saw this analogy, but this isa fascinating analogy.
The problem was presented.
They did this experiment.
They said, okay, everybody,we've got this jar of water
(25:24):
right.
And they said we're going to.
And they had like probably 30different canisters of stuff on
the table in front of the wholeroom and they said, all right,
this first one we have is thisis battery acid and we're going
to pour this in the water.
And then we have what's thenext one?
We got hot sauce and they putthat you know, this is dirt,
(25:45):
we're going to put this in.
You know, this one is, you know, whatever, all this nasty stuff
, mustard ketchup, I mean.
By the time they were done withit it was like a black muck of
just nastiness, right.
And they said, who in theaudience is going to come up
here and drink this?
And of course, no one, no one.
And then some guy in the backyou know, that is a plant, you
(26:11):
know raises his hand and saysI'll drink it.
And everyone's like no, there'sno way.
And in this analogy, the reasonI'm bringing this up is because
we are the, we are the person,right, we are the person and our
audience is determining.
Are we going to drink from thisperson?
Are we going to accept thecontent or or whatever from this
person?
Are they toxic or not?
(26:32):
And so if we let all thesetoxic things in our life and we
become this really muddy, nastywater, nobody is going to want
to be a part of our life ordrink anything that we're, you
know, putting out right.
And so we got this nasty, muckything and the guy in the back
is like I'm going to drink it.
And so the whole audience leansin and they're like there's no
way this guy is going to drinkall this I mean he'll die Like
(26:55):
it's like nasty, and there wassome stuff in there they put in
there that I won't mention, butit's nasty.
So so everyone's leaning in andhe gets up there and he, he
picks it up like he's going todrink it, and then he's like ah,
and everyone's like ah, we knewyou weren't going to drink it.
But then he puts it on thetable and he takes a pure
distilled water, like a biggallon of it, and he starts
(27:17):
pouring it into the, into thecup of all this nasty, toxic
stuff.
And he as he pours it, itstarts overflowing and all the
toxic stuff starts clearing out.
And by the time he's donepouring this jug of distilled
water, the entire toxic glass ofwater is now clear.
And then he picks it up and hedrinks it and everyone is just
(27:42):
like what, what?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
That's so good.
Yeah, what are you putting in?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
What are you putting in that's?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
so good man.
I love that.
You know leadership is not justabout the, the highlight reel.
You know every leader.
I know experiences, not justthe hamo, it's not just the
mountaintops but also thechallenges.
What are some of the challengesthat you have faced in your
journey so far?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, that's a really good one.
Yeah, babe, echard has a reallygood that was book and a bunch
of teachings on this about highperformance.
And so if you're a highperformance leader, what it
means is you are consistentlyperforming at a high level,
meaning you're not the kind ofperson that has a really high
(28:35):
high and a really low low andyou're jumping between the two
and you're going from peak tovalley and you're really
struggling and you're trying toaverage out to be going up.
What he's found is that highperformers can figure out how to
make their valleys reallyshallow and they stay at this
really high level of performance, and so that's something that
(28:57):
I've really tried to strive for.
But what that means is you haveto eliminate the things in your
life that can cause the valleysright, and so when you do that
audit I was talking about ofyour health, that's one of the
areas that people can reallyhave these big valleys.
Now there's things in your lifethat happen that you just can't.
(29:19):
You can't fix right.
People die, you get sick.
I know in my life one of thebig things that happened was I
had periodontal disease and itwas very hard because I had
never had a cavity in my life.
I had always flossed every day,faithful, right, but not to get
(29:45):
too personal.
But I went vegan for five toseven years like full vegan and
I was already gluten free beforethat.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Oh man.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
So I was a gluten free vegan.
It's super hard to do, right,it's super hard to do, I would
think, but I had to give it upbecause when I finally figured
out what was going on with me,as a vegan, you are trying to
get calories right and so youcan eat as many vegetables as
(30:13):
you want Well, you can also eatas many, as much rice and oats
and things like that as you wantto, because that's technically
a vegetable to satiate.
And so what was happening is Iwas getting in a situation where
I was, I had too many carbs,right, and those carbs were
translating into, you know, badbacteria in your gut and your
(30:37):
mouth and causing periodontaldisease.
My dentist did not even mentionit, didn't even catch it, which
angers me to the core rightAbout some of the things.
But yeah, they came out therelike whoops.
Well, it's been seven years,it's been growing, we didn't
know, we didn't catch it.
And so now you know there'ssome things we gotta do and do
some surgery on your mouth andmy jaw, essentially, was
(31:01):
changing the structure becauseit was eating underneath my gum
line, oh my goodness.
And so they had.
I had to do a jaw surgery,basically, and fix a lot of the
structure stuff, and so I had mymouth wired shut.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
It was horrible.
Man Eating through a straw isjust not fun.
No, so yeah, all this stuffhappened personally and you know
it was funny.
Like you see all these peopleon Instagram and they're living
their best life and you have noidea what they're going through.
Right, you don't know theirpersonal struggles, all the
things they're going through.
I've talked to so many friends.
They're going through divorce,they're going through mental
(31:40):
health issues, they're goingthrough financial difficulties.
They're kids.
You know we had a neighbor theother day.
They're like eight month old.
Son died right.
Just crazy stuff.
And then you have to go to workand you have to smile and you
gotta you know hey, look at me,or whatever.
It's okay.
I mean, you're gonna havevalues.
(32:01):
You're gonna have things thatjust hurt, that are really low,
but you can only control yourreaction to those things, right.
You can only control how am Igonna react, how am I gonna act
with my mindset, how am I gonnashow up even in the midst of
those things?
And so a real leader is goingto figure out others first,
(32:25):
right, like take care ofyourself.
But others first, like how do Ishow up for others?
Yes, it's hard, but they mightbe going through something and
they need you to show up.
They need you to show up in apositive way, because they're
going through something thatmight be way worse than what
you're going through.
And so if you can kind of getout of your own head and
(32:46):
empathize with others and say,hey, you know they are probably
going through something worseand so how can I show up for
them, Then that really gets youbeyond yourself, back into that
servant leader mindset where youcan show up even when you're
going through those valleys, andso that really helps you even
out your performance because youdon't go to those lows, you
(33:09):
don't let yourself go into thosedark areas where you can't pull
out of it.
And then I think the other sideof that, too, is life will
inevitably throw those superhard things at you where you
can't do what I just said, right, like you just absolutely are
destroyed and you cannot show up, you cannot have a positive
(33:31):
anything, and that's okay too,right, and I think in that
instance, a true leader wouldmitigate your downside risk is
what it's called in investing,right?
How do you have a supportstructure in place to catch you
when you go that low, when youhit rock bottom?
Who is there?
Do you have a family member?
(33:52):
Do you have a friend?
Do you have a wife?
Do you have a husband?
Do you have you know who is inyour life that you're gonna fall
into the arms of?
Basically, like your faith,right, do you have a faith?
Do you have a belief in God ora higher power, like, who is
gonna be there to support youwhen you're at your rock bottom?
(34:13):
And that will also help you,because what's the alternative?
The alternative is you devolveinto, you know, just checking
out of life for a long time, andthen your value is so low that
it takes you so much longer toget out of that.
To get to that peak again, itmight be years, right, and you
(34:35):
might be so low and so trying tostruggle and get out of it that
you just don't.
And then are you really, youknow, gonna be where you wanna
be in life?
Probably not.
So I think that's some of thethings that you know I've dealt
with and how I've gotten out ofthat.
But, yeah, just trying to havethat support structure in place,
keeping the lows as leveled asyou can.
(34:59):
And likewise, you know it'sinteresting I have not had as
many peaks as a lot of peoplethat obviously you see online
and I think we all can identifywith that as like, wow, this
person's just knocking it out ofthe park a thousand percent
(35:19):
here.
I don't know if I'm always onthe peak like all these people,
but you know that's a falsething and I'm joking, but I
don't think that.
Well, I do think you have tomitigate against your peaks as
well.
In other words, when you havesomething, go super well in your
favor, like, stay humble anddon't let that thing really take
(35:40):
you to the super high peak,like where you're just
unstoppable.
I'm like gonna brag and I'mjust up here and look at me and
like you can't do that either,cause then your peaks get so
high that now you can fallpretty far yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
So, yeah, that's so good man, I think that's so
helpful.
You know, to talk aboutmitigating the downturn, that's
one thing, but mitigating thepeaks, yes.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
That's really good.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Yeah, because, think about it, you're not technically
a high performer if your peaksare so high, but then you crash
back down to like some normallevel, that's not even close.
So you're just going from likehigh to like crazy high, but
you're still, you know, going upand down.
Up and down.
It's like, well, that's stillnot good either, really good.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
I think that's helpful.
I'm curious, like, if you goback and talk to yourself,
you're 22 years old, knowingwhat you know.
Now, what would you love to goback and tell yourself?
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Yeah, other than all the stock market advice,
probably.
Yeah, that's a good question.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat we can go back and say I
would have, should have, couldhave.
Yeah, I think there's a lot ofthings that you know we made
(37:10):
decisions on that we that mighthave led to a different life,
right?
I'm trying to think of themovie.
It's called like Just in Time.
I think it's kind of an unknownmovie, but it's got Rachel
Adams in it, the notebookactress, and it's this story
(37:33):
about this family that has timetravel in their family.
Like it's like a skill thatthey have or something, this
gift that they have.
And one of the interesting notto give away the story, but one
of the interesting plot pointsis like he ends up traveling
back in time and makingdifferent decisions, but then
(37:54):
they alter his children.
So like he comes back to hispresent day and his kids are
different, because you know howit works out.
It just that was a differentegg and sperm that got together,
right, so a lot of the thingswere kind of the same, but like
his kids were completelydifferent kids, right, and so
(38:18):
just because of the decisionsand stuff, so like you think,
yes, I would go back and makethese different decisions, but
you'd be a completely differentperson now, right, and so you're
.
Really it's a fun exercise totalk about, but really you can't
, you wouldn't.
Even if you had the choice toand you saw what you would be,
(38:40):
you might not wanna do it, andthat's what in the movie, that's
what this guy ended up decidingLike, actually I don't want to
do this, right, and so I thinkI'm very much content with you,
know my life and the decisionsI've made.
However, what advice would Igive?
I would say, go deeper on onething, and I think that's where
(39:08):
and this is unique to peoplethat are multi-talented and
multi-interested in differentthings, like I was, like I am we
have a tendency to be jack ofall trades, master of none.
It's a certain personality ofleaders, right, we're very much
generalists in jack of alltrades because we just that's
(39:29):
our makeup, that's what we liketo do, and so, but when you're
first starting off and you'renot a leader and you're trying
to build a skill set, my advicewould be to double down on that
skill set.
Get really good at one thing andget really focused on it,
because that is gonna be thelever or the building block
that's gonna get you tosomething bigger and better,
(39:50):
whereas I took this approach ofno, I'm just gonna be good at
everything I can and then,slowly, I'm gonna build this
pyramid right and it's just.
I'm gonna just be wide, widewide, an inch deep, but a mile
wide, and I'm just gonna keepbuilding this pyramid until I
get to some level where otherpeople are just like no, I'm
just gonna build a skyscraperright here on one inch straight
(40:12):
up, maybe, rock it past you andyou're like wait a minute, how
are you doing that?
And maybe that's just grass isgreener on the other side.
But I really think that whenyou're younger and you're not a
leader, it helps you if you canfocus more.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
I think that's fantastic advice.
It's her book that has made adifference in your journey, One
that you would recommend thatevery leader listening I give
you add a book to your list thissummer.
This is the book.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Yes, absolutely.
I would say the one thing forsure.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Oh it's a great book.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, the one.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
And your theme with what you've been talking about.
That's so good man.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, yeah, the one thing so, yeah, I would say the
reason that book changed so muchabout how I think about
business and leadership isbecause there's one concept
specifically that I kind ofdidn't really recognize as
significant until I got into theCEO role, which is the concept
(41:16):
of the dominoes.
And so there's a concept in thebook that talks about stacking
your dominoes, and there's aphysics lesson in it where you
can take a domino and I'm gonnaget this wrong but it's
something like 2.5% or three Iforget what the ratio is but a
(41:37):
domino can hit over, in otherwords, it can knock over a
domino that's much larger thanitself.
And so if you take the thingsyou're trying to accomplish and
you go backward from the bigdomino, so if you take a domino
and you say I wanna accomplish,I wanna win an Oscar or whatever
, then if that's your big domino, then you can go backward from
(41:57):
there and have smaller dominoesthat can achieve that next
domino.
So if you're like, okay, Iwanna win an Oscar, well, what
do I need to do to do that?
Well, I need to probably starin a A-list movie.
Well, how am I gonna do that?
Well, how do I start an A-listmovie.
Well, I gotta be good at actingand I probably gotta be a star
in a really small movie.
(42:18):
It's like, okay, well, how do wedo that?
Well, probably need to learnhow to act and probably need to
do that.
Okay, well, how do you do that?
Well, I probably need to moveto an area where I'm around
people that know how to act andI need to invest in myself and I
need to get around to directorsand writers.
Okay, well, how do you do that?
Well, probably need to move outof my small town and go
(42:40):
somewhere.
Well, maybe I need to startflying around the country and
meeting some people.
Okay, well, how do I do that?
Well, I probably should get ajob so I can afford to go fly
and meet these people and investin myself.
Okay, well, how do I get a job?
Well, I probably need to get adegree and learn something.
Well, how do I do that?
Well, I probably need right.
(43:00):
So you get all these dominoesand you think about it like the
only thing.
The one thing that you need tofocus on is that next domino.
That's it, and the reason thatdidn't really click was because
the master of everything conceptis that you put some eggs in
about 500 baskets.
All this spread out anddiversified, and you know all
(43:24):
these things and you're doingall these things.
You got all these littlebusinesses going right, but your
energy, your attention, yourfocus is spread out so far that
you cannot accomplish anything.
And it's like having a millionlittle dominoes that can't even
knock over anything, right, andso you just can't make progress.
(43:44):
And so then, but the whole timeyou're looking at that one
domino that's impossible toknock down and you have no
leverage or ability to everknock it down, and so it won't
ever happen.
You'll just be dreaming andputting all your eggs in 500
baskets.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
That's so good.
I love that picture, man.
That's so helpful.
I know people are gonna wannastay connected with you.
What is the best way for themto do that?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
Yeah, so you can go to jeffdolancom.
That's my home base and I tryto be active on social media.
So I'm active on most socialmedia as Jeff Dolan.
And then for Wave you can go towaveco, w-a-v-v-eco, and I do
(44:32):
write two times a week there onsocial media and podcasting and
marketing.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Fantastic.
I'm gonna be going over thereright now to sign up.
Cool, Jeff.
Thank you again.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
It was a pleasure, William.
I really appreciate it.
Really good questions too.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Thanks for joining me for this episode today.
As we wrap up, I'd love for youto do two things.
First, subscribe to thispodcast so you don't miss an
episode, and if you find valuehere, I'd love it if you would
rate it and review it.
That really does make adifference in helping other
people to discover this podcast.
Second, if you don't have acopy of my newest book,
(45:12):
catalytic Leadership, I'd loveto put a copy in your hands.
If you go tocatalyticleadershipbookcom, you
can get a copy for free.
Just pay the shipping so I canget it to you and we'll get one
right out.
My goal is to put this into thehands of as many leaders as
possible.
This book captures principlesthat I've learned in 20 plus
(45:34):
years of coaching leaders in theentrepreneurial space, in
business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church
.
You can also connect with me onLinkedIn to keep up with what
I'm currently learning andthinking about.
If you're ready to take a nextstep with a coach to help you
intentionally grow and thrive asa leader, I'd be honored to
(45:56):
help you.
Just go tocatalyticleadershipnet to book a
call with me.
Stay tuned for our next episodenext week.
Until then, as always, leaderschoose to be catalytic.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr
William Attaway.
Be sure to subscribe whereveryou listen to podcasts so you
don't miss the next episode.
Want more?
Go to catalyticleadershipnet.
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