What if you could peer into the future of social media and tap into the resources of a seasoned digital marketing maven? Today, we're in for a treat as we have the opportunity to do just that with our esteemed guest, Mandy Hoskinson. Based in Los Angeles, Mandy wears multiple hats as a visual artist, a digital marketer, and the proud founder of her own boutique marketing agency. Mandy invites us into her world, shedding light on her journey from leading projects at UCLA to carving her niche in the digital marketing industry. Her unique approach to leadership, which involves actively removing obstacles and focusing on team welfare, is truly inspiring.
Mandy shares her perspective on the future of social media, emphasizing the importance of embracing new technologies as an early adopter. She believes in the power of tech stack sharing and the potential of AI tools in marketing. From her experience, Mandy gives us a glimpse into the benefits of CEO social accounts and how they can be optimized for positivity and vulnerability, particularly on platforms like LinkedIn. We round off this discussion of digital trends with Mandy’s insights on how creative practices can be used in tools like Google Sheets for personal growth.
In the final stretch of our conversation, Mandy opens up about her personal journey and the transformative power of honesty. She underscores the significance of learning from mentors, defending your team, and the importance of reading and personal creative practice. Mandy's story is a testament to the potential for success in both digital marketing and creative pursuits and serves as a valuable guide for all aspiring leaders in the digital world. Tune in for an episode filled with wisdom, insights, and a generous dose of inspiration from Mandy Hoskinson.
Connect with Mandy on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandahoskinson/
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, it's William and welcome to today's episode of
the Catalytic Leadership podcast.
Each week, we tackle a topicrelated to the field of
leadership.
My goal is to ensure that youhave actionable steps you can
take from each episode to growin your own leadership.
Growth doesn't just happen.
My goal is to help you becomeintentional about it.
(00:37):
Each week, we spotlight leadersfrom a variety of fields,
organizations and locations.
My goal is for you to see thatleaders can be catalytic, no
matter where they are or whatthey lead.
I draw inspiration from thestories and journeys of these
leaders and I hear from many ofyou that you do too.
Let's jump in to today'sinterview.
(00:59):
I'm so excited today to haveMandy Hoskinson on the podcast.
Mandy, also known as Media Mandy, is a talented digital marketer
and visual artist based in LosAngeles, california.
She has a passion for digitalmarketing and community
management, which began duringher time at UCLA, where she
co-launched the universitysocial media platforms.
(01:21):
After her successful experienceat UCLA, mandy took on various
roles in the digital marketingindustry, including work for LA
2028, apple, fox TV and CBS.
As she gained more experienceand recognition in the field,
mandy started to work as afreelance digital marketer,
taking on small projects onweekends and evenings.
(01:43):
Over time, her client base grewand they began to request
additional services likephotography, videography,
analytics, print, marketing,design and more.
This led to the establishmentof Mandy's own boutique
marketing agency, media MandyAgency, which has since
rebranded as Zolle studio.
Mandy, I'm so glad you're here.
(02:03):
Thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I'm stoked that bio sounds so cool.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, it's you so I hope?
No, really, but really we'reglad you're here.
I'd love for you to share alittle bit of your story.
I kind of hit some of the hotpoints, but I'd love to hear
more about your journey and yourdevelopment, particularly as a
leader.
How did you get started?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Oh, I love that.
I've been reflecting a lot onhow millennials were raised to
be leaders.
This is a huge part of oureducation.
Frankly, I don't know wherethat came from, but I was raised
by a military commander whowent to West Point, so it was
always sort of in my blood.
(02:48):
I was also just like the bossykid growing up and so, like
anyone who didn't want to leadthe group project or you know
all the like kids games, Ialways wanted to lead and that,
of course, when you're a kid andwhen you're a young girl is
considered bossy.
(03:08):
But I've found as an adult thata lot of people have talents as
leaders and a lot of peoplehave talents as followers and
actually have preferences, andso you know that gives me the
most joy.
And so, you know, throughout mycareer I found myself leading
lots of things and in myindustry which didn't exist when
(03:30):
I started my career, that wasincredibly important because you
had to be willing to take risks, you had to be willing to sort
of pretend like you know whatyou were doing and you had to be
willing to take people in acompletely new direction that
you weren't sure would end uphelpful.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
That's good.
So at this point in yourjourney, how would you define
leadership?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I have with a company that septupled.
In a year, I went very quicklyfrom a coworker to a manager.
I think a lot of people gothrough that journey where they
are suddenly thrust intomanaging a lot of people, be it
in a volunteer capacity or in awork capacity, and so now I just
(04:24):
see myself as an obstacleremover and a general health
supporter.
The number one value at mycompany is to take care of our
team.
I don't think you get good workand good results without, first
and foremost, your team beingtaken care of, and so I center
that, and that has led todecisions that aren't good for
(04:45):
business but are good for people, and I think I've gained
commitment from the right typeof people who really, really
valued that over people whovalue hustle and high
achievement.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, no, that's really good.
I love that obstacle remover.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's so fantastic.
I think that's something everyleader can do and should aspire
to, because if we're removingobstacles from our team, how
does that not help everybody besuccessful?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah.
And at the end of the day, nowmy job, my responsibility and
inevitably what I will fall foris people's success, and I have
found that workplaces that seemlike they care about me first
are places that I'll stay uplate for.
They're places that I'll go theextra mile for, but it's always
(05:39):
at the right time and I alwaysknow that when things are hard I
can also ask for that, and Ithink in our culture that's a
luxury.
It shouldn't be, but it is aluxury and I want to be a place
where that's what's available.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Love that.
So stepping from working forother people now to leading your
own agency, that's a verydifferent world.
Have you discovered some waysto lead an agency effectively?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
So I started really young.
I started in my mid-20s thiscompany and I started working
really young and so that led togoing into entrepreneurship
young and I've spoken to somepeople who say you're so lucky.
You're so lucky that you gotthis head start in this thing
(06:29):
and in other ways.
I'll talk to other businessowners who did the same thing
and we always tell each other Iwish I could go have a job, I
wish I could go be managed or gohave an internship, like I'm
hungry for these learningopportunities because I don't
have as much inspiration fromgoing through that.
I worked at agencies, I workedin house, I worked at nonprofits
(06:53):
, I worked for corporations, andso I did get a taste of how
each of those are run.
I think my kindness comes fromworking at kind nonprofits.
I early on got to see.
I worked for David Geer,richard Geer's brother's
nonprofit, the Art and GlobalHealth Center.
Super cool, basically workingon the thesis that art can
(07:15):
change the world.
And that team is the kindestteam I've ever worked with.
They moved slow and that was.
Another lesson is that if you'regoing to be kind to people,
you're not going to have thespeed that other companies that
aren't kind to people have, andthat is something that, to the
(07:37):
point of the agency is somethingthat I communicate with people
from the very beginning is thatwe're a people-led agency and in
social media, which isessentially a tabloid, that can
be frustrating, like clientswant immediate results and they
want to feel like you'rein-house.
But we're not in-house, we'rean agency.
(07:58):
You get the benefit of eightpeople for the cost of one when
you work with an agency, so wehave so much talent.
But also I'm the poop shield.
We'll say and my job is to sayhey, it's 5 am, which means it's
2 am for my Hawaii team member.
(08:20):
She's going to get to it and Ipromise your results are going
to be similar and that meansthat I'm not calling my team
member at 2 am for somethingthat I've decided as your senior
strategist, can take a hit forsomething else for us to go the
extra mile next time.
So communicating early.
It's actually in their handbookwhat our turnaround times are.
(08:40):
It's in their initial trainingand it's in their contract that
they understand that this is howwe work and, interestingly, I
have led clients to be better totheir team.
This is really cool.
This just happened this year,so I went to San Francisco with
a client and we are actuallysubcontracted through another
(09:02):
agency, so it's an agencyworking for an agency working
for a client, and they knew thatwe take two weeks off at the
holidays radical in America,right?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Just absolutely unheard of.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
And they said how do you do it?
And I said A we tell people allyear, it's in their handbook,
it's in their contract, and westart planning in August.
B we have a skeleton crew.
There's always somebody who'shome, there's always someone who
has hours now so that they cantake three weeks in the summer.
And when your team that caresabout each other and your team
(09:38):
first, the team understands thatI get to have a full Christmas
because this other team memberis filling in for me, and so in
that summer I'm going to takemaybe a heavier load in the
summertime because I get that.
And that's the team caringabout each other.
(10:00):
It's not the company tellingyou what to do.
And yeah, and so those are thetwo things that have led to
balance.
And so this year that client isimplementing two weeks off for
the first time with a businessowner who's got 30 years on me,
and so that's really inspiring.
It shows me that not only doesthat method work, it also
(10:21):
inspires people.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely.
As you said earlier, when youtake care of your people, that
creates a whole differentenvironment, and I think we're
seeing that in the broaderculture, slowly but surely
moving that direction.
Getting humans first what anovel idea.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah, yeah, and I think post-pandemic and bossy
millennials and bossy Gen Z, allof that these are values that
people want to be hired for, andI was just this morning reading
about caretaking and how it'sone of the least visible jobs in
(10:59):
America, where people have afull-time job and they're
caretaking, and how most peopleare about to enter.
Because of boomers, aging, mostpeople are about to enter
potentially caretaking for oneperson, if not also their
families, and this kind of thingis just going to have to be a
part of the culture.
Otherwise, entire swaths of thework, like work culture and
(11:22):
also really great minds, reallyhardworking minds, are going to
be lost, and so I want to beready for that and so I'm
practicing for that.
Before the performance Smart.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
That's what great leaders do we think ahead and
plan for what's ahead of us.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, I hope so.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, you seem like a pretty systematic thinker and
here in how you're saying westarted in August planning
knowing we're going to havethese two weeks off.
It's in the manual, Likeeverybody knows.
It's in the contract.
Everybody knows this is coming.
We communicate it often,frequently.
Are there other processes ortech maybe that you use as you
are running an agency?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Oh man, I was told by a recent oncomer that Zolei
clearly chooses the exact besttool for the job and that means
that there's a lot of softwarelearning, which is really good
feedback, because as we grow upand as we work with more complex
industries, we're hiring peoplethat have been in the workplace
(12:19):
longer and that means that theydon't necessarily have the
native experience of thesesoftwares and within a day
you're probably working withinseven softwares at Zolei, maybe.
I know, I know I'm bad.
It's bad.
I really do love thisoptimization tech.
So we live on Slack.
(12:40):
I really like this, because somany things can be a Slack
message over an email.
It does get overwhelming, andso we have a lot of rules around
Slack.
We teach people how to muteSlack.
We teach people when to tag.
We teach people how to haveconversations there so that
everything's hyper organized.
That means and especially insocial media, like there's like
(13:02):
design revisions and copyrevisions we put our calendars
and air table.
We used to be in Google Sheets.
Air table is utterly fantasticand so much more robust, and
client feedback has beenfantastic there.
I started using toggle, whichmeasures people's time by client
.
I tried really hard to notmeasure by client for a really
(13:24):
long time.
In social media, you can workon five clients in an hour.
It's quick, and so I hate micromanagement.
I think it's inefficient.
But really what we were findingis that people were spending too
many hours on clients and sothis was actually out of care
for the person.
Is that, hey, you have thismany hours allotted per client
(13:49):
and your time is being sucked bythis, and we had a feeling of
that.
We had one client that wasusing double their hours, which
was like wild, and this was achoice.
Everybody has seasons.
That's why we have retainers,so that we can hustle for you in
your hustle season and we canrest with you in your rest
(14:09):
season, and so we were hustlingfor them.
We knew that that was going tobe required, but we needed to
reduce and we needed that data,so that really helped.
Gusto for hours reporting,goodness Sprout social for
scheduling, canva for design.
So there's a lot in a day and Iactually am considering
(14:30):
reducing our tech stack, but inthe meantime, my tech nerdiness
really comes through there, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I think that's great, and I think finding the right
tool that does what you wantedto do makes a big difference.
I spoke at a conference formarketing agency owners this
last weekend down in Tampa, andI always like to walk around and
talk to some of the sponsorsand the vendors to learn what's
the latest and greatest.
What are you working on, what'snew?
And I learned a great deal, butunless you're constantly
(15:01):
keeping apprised on what's goingon, it's hard to know.
Hey, something else justhappened, this is something new.
This might be more helpful thanthese three things you've been
doing.
So I love that and I think ifit takes six or seven, then it
takes six or seven.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And, first of all, great social media posts for all
business owners out there.
I always ask people what theirtech stack is and they always
end up making it a social mediapost because we all want to hear
what you're up to.
Also, you can just search techstack on LinkedIn and Twitter.
X users love to share that andstartup rows as much as we love
(15:39):
them and love to not love them.
They are cutting edge softwareusers.
They're maybe beta testingstuff, and that is where I
learned about AI tools superearly.
And the last thing I'll saythis is a hack within social
media managers is coupon codeson Twitter.
So all these people are tryingout these early.
(16:02):
They're early adopters and soeverybody gets these really
great codes.
I won't say what AI tool I got50% off of, but it was $700
discount because of a hiddenTwitter code from a really early
adopter that was nine monthsold, and so this hack has been
like a.
Yeah, it's been a game changerbecause I've been willing to
(16:23):
take risks on tools because it'sso much cheaper.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So good, so good.
I love that.
Yeah, let's talk AI, since youbrought it.
So, how are you seeing thisbeing used right now in
marketing and social media, evenin art?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Yeah, I'll plug that I consult with CEOs on AI, just
because I love to talk about itso much that people hear about
it.
And then I've hosted two lunchand learns with the social media
club of LA, which is completelyrecorded on our Facebook page,
which was fantastic.
One was with Adobe someone whoworked on the Adobe AI, and the
(17:04):
other was with three peoplewhere we looked over their
shoulders so they shared theirscreen on how they use one AI
tool in a day, and that wasfantastic and I should probably
bring it back.
Wow, I'm a super AI nerd.
My entire company shares a chatGPT pro account, just like
Netflix.
Don't get mad at me.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I'm a small business owner.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And then the super cool part of this is that we can
see what each other is doing.
Here's the big hack ChatGPT canwrite your prompts for you.
So one of the things that I dois I've actually written a page
of teaching ChatGPT about theclient brand rules, good posts,
(17:50):
what to do, what not to do, howto use emoji, how to use
hashtags, common links, commonline breaks this is really deep
in the AI community is how toteach it first.
Then what you say is what elsedo you need to know?
This is the AI hack.
Then it will ask you more.
(18:11):
Then you answer all of that andthen you compile this all into
a document and you say, hey,okay, we're going to write posts
for this brand.
Here's what you need to know.
It goes okay.
Then it can go read articles,it can read PDFs, it can read
transcripts from interviews andAI is your co-pilot right,
that's the name of one of them,but we never, ever, ever hand
(18:33):
the client something completelyAI created but, especially
something like a transcript.
That is saving the client money.
What we're finding is that weare giving people more options.
That has been a huge luxury isthat if we used to give them two
copy options, we might givethem three, because it gave us
(18:54):
another great idea that helpseverybody.
I absolutely love ChatGPT, midJourney, the AI image creator.
I'm officially able to read MidJourney.
It has such a specific visualvoice and I use it enough.
It's $20 a month, it's Discord,and so it's like kind of
(19:14):
complex to figure out.
I love it and just for the sakeof understanding how to talk to
AI, something really cool aboutMid Journey is you can tell it
to describe an image and howthat image would be prompted,
and so if you're not sure, yeah,and also on Reddit and YouTube,
you'll find Google Docsteaching ChatGPT how to prompt
(19:36):
Mid Journey, and so, yeah, it'samazing.
It's amazing and so, like youcan use anything, especially if
you're paying for Pro ChatGPT,because it can go learn about
the tool on its own.
You can use any AI tool andthen have ChatGPT do it for you,
and that is phenomenal.
That administration andlearning is completely skipped.
(19:57):
So that has been a game changerfor me and AI In terms of art.
I'm really intrigued by it.
It really matters where you'retaking the art from, and a lot
of these data sources aren'tdisclosed.
Adobe uses its own imagelibrary and it is not great, and
so you know the cost of it.
(20:19):
I understand why somebody wouldsay that AI art is an art, but
we used to say that on Photoshopand we did.
We used to say that that'sabsolutely not art and that is,
like now, accepted as absolutelyan art tool and so most really
good AI art takes about 100iterations, it takes so many
(20:41):
refinements and you can add yourown images to it, and so I
think we're going to have tounderstand the tool and people
who don't understand the tool,the people that are just like
it's not art, it's bad, it'swhatever.
They don't use the tool, and Ithink you know we're going to
need to start understanding thatprompt engineering is a job and
(21:02):
is an art form and, yes, datasources matter, but collages are
, photoshop is collage and mostpeople are taking things from
the internet and we havecopyright law.
I'm not a lawyer.
We have copyright law aboutproper modification and AI art
is probably the most intenseversion of modification.
(21:22):
So I'm not.
I don't have hard opinions, butI think these people, before
you have an opinion and beforeyou let people tell you to have
an opinion, go use the toolyourself, because I think you're
going to have a more in-depthunderstanding of it and be able
to actually have a realconversation about it.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
That is so thoughtful and so good.
I like that.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I haven't thought through this stuff, so thanks
for asking.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
You know so much in the digital space right now is
talking about social media, andthis is.
This is just a hot topic ofconversation.
Where's it going?
What's next?
Where do we think it's going togo from here?
I would love to hear yourthoughts around that.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
It's always fun when people care about your job.
Yeah, I don't know Podcasting.
I don't know if it's really hitthe news There'll be trends or
like earnings from podcasts ormaybe a big one will get sold to
Spotify.
But it's always funny whenpeople just like suddenly start
caring.
Of course, like this podcastwould care, but you know my
friends and family will be likeoh, you have a real job Somebody
(22:28):
recently at a party said oh,you just finished a Goldman
Sachs business program.
Does that mean you're going toget a job?
And I was like I have 20employees, You're right what?
It's also pretty wild thatthat's the case, right, it's I?
You know we had a one personteam.
(22:50):
I've worked for the ITdepartment.
I've worked for the photographydepartment, where social media
was born in a company Highlyimpacts what you're allowed to
do, the resources you have andhow you approach it, and that
has been fascinating.
And I always ask clients likewhere does your social media
team sit?
Because it tells me whatapproach you're going to take,
(23:10):
whether or not you want to.
That's good.
In terms of social, the mostinteresting social right now is
LinkedIn and has been for abouttwo years.
It is absolutely blowing up.
Users are increasingexponentially and one of my
metrics for it was when willsomebody post a gym picture?
(23:32):
And that has officiallyhappened on my feed, which means
we're hitting it as socialmedia.
It's not just a place for jobseekers yeah, especially for
people here on this podcast.
I'm sure they've heard it amillion times.
Being there is really important.
It's a really important placeto establish your voice and I'm
officially recommending thatpeople Disinvest from company
(23:54):
pages and start investing in CEOsocial because we're tired of
brands.
We know it, we understand it.
I really believe that we'releaving the snark phase of
social and moving into thekindness and vulnerability phase
of social.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Oh, I hope so.
Oh, my goodness, I hope, that'strue.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Yeah, and like you build your own feed, and so if
you complain about a socialmedia channel to me, I just
understand that your algorithmis optimized for anger, which
that is how social media willautomatically treat you if you
either don't optimize it foryourself or if you are sort of
neutral.
But if you optimize forpositivity and inspiration,
(24:35):
that's what you're going to get,and there's a lot of people
doing that.
There's a lot of people gettingreally vulnerable.
Sarah Blakely has been reallygood at this for a really long
time of Spanx.
I highly recommend checking herout her podcast with how I
built this and you'll see you'rejust seeing it everywhere.
In some ways, it's leading to PRcrises.
(24:56):
Some CEOs go a little toovulnerable, right, like they
don't know how to do this orthey don't have the right
support, and so it's risky, butit's really, really important.
I don't know if X is going todie, but I've never seen a
social media platform ever inthe news more Maybe Facebook
(25:17):
during its court case, but it'sstaying in the news, which is
fascinating to me.
I love threads.
Threads is a social mediafavorite right now, social media
manager favorite, and that'simportant, like it's important
that your social media manageris there.
It's also important thatFacebook and Instagram are
dumping money into it.
(25:37):
I won't say where, but when Iworked creating Facebook live
videos, we were paid 10,000 aminute to go live by Facebook,
not to Facebook.
We were paid as a brand to golive and my job was to go live
for 300 minutes a month and if Imissed a single minute I lost
my company $10,000.
(25:58):
And that was a lot of pressureand you should know that.
Everything gaming, dating,groups they invest a lot of
money into it and they don'twant it to die.
They're really quicklyinnovating it and they really
pushed it fast, so I'm intriguedby that.
This really isn't an answer,but I think LinkedIn and threads
(26:18):
are the most interesting thingand I think vulnerability is
something to lean into.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
That's so fascinating .
I spend more of my time onLinkedIn than any of the others
and I find the conversationsthere once you get through some
of the spammy stuff, but so manyof the conversations there are
so different and richer in somany ways.
So I just I would agreecompletely on that one.
I have not spent a lot of timeon threads.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
It's fun, but after this conversation.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I feel like I should.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
It's quirky, but if you want that coveted
interaction, techcrunch hasinteracted with me.
The LA Times meme account whichis amazing followed me.
If you remember the Early ClubHouse Days, which is better for
individuals, I'm sure you werethere.
That was a place where yourapidly networked and so if you
just want to see where brandsare being edgy, it's a great
(27:13):
place.
I gave my writer she writes fortelevision I gave my writer
100% freedom on our threadsbecause it's just a fun place to
experiment and it's been goinggreat.
She's super funny and I alwaysbelieve that everybody should
have a creative outlet at workand I'm hoping that that is what
that's doing for her.
(27:33):
I'll say on LinkedIn, they'realgorithmically weak, so
newsletters are huge there and Idon't know about you, but I'm
getting like three 10 newsletterinvites a day.
Two years ago, newsletters wasmy hack.
Nowadays there's too many andwhere do you find them?
It's impossible to find them.
They push to your email, but ifyou go find them, you're just
(27:54):
going to see a list of them, sothen you have to go click to
each one individually.
It's not delivering to yourfeed.
Articles are also pretty bad,but the hack I'll say right now
is go write the AI articles.
You can search topics and I'mgetting emails from LinkedIn
employees just because of myinteractions there.
(28:15):
That's an interesting place tobuild expertise and it's
honestly just a really funexercise to write about your
expertise.
And anytime a social mediaprofile or social media platform
pushes your interaction withsomething, that's something to
work on, and so it now pushes soand so contributed to this
(28:39):
article into the feed and, onceagain, if a social media
platform pushes out an update,they're going to invest money
and give you a lot of freeimpressions for this because
they want it to succeed.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
So good, so good.
You have some experience therein LA as the president of the
social media club.
What are some initiatives, whatare some projects and key
projects that you have worked onthere to foster community and
professional development in thisdigital marketing field?
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yeah, one of the things that the club didn't have
was documentation and templates, which is so boring but so
important.
So I was given the club to keepon life support during the
pandemic.
A lot of people, their livesare changing.
They were moving, their job gota lot harder.
(29:38):
There was a generational change.
There's a huge generationalchange in a lot of organizations
I'm part of right now, where Ithink these are organizations
that people join when they'retrying to grow their career and
once you hit a career moment,you don't feel a need to have it
.
You have the network you want,you have the position you want,
and so I used that year, whichwas slow.
(30:01):
We were an in-person eventsspecialty organization and we
had a small board and I justused that year for admin,
created the first handbook,created a bunch of processes,
worked with someone to createcanva templates.
So all that boringadministration, because my end
goal is to hand this to the nextpresident very strong, I just
(30:22):
want a really strong org.
The next year, I wanted tocreate regular events.
So we created regular digitalevents and we update our email
and this year we're relaunchingan award show called the Hashis,
which I am really excited aboutit.
This award show has actuallyexisted around the country
(30:43):
because Social Media Club isinternational and it has a great
name it's called the Hashis.
However, in LA that word has adifferent connotation, but I'm
kind of writing the fame of thatconnotation because of other
industries that are massive here.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Different industry.
That's right yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, but you know, I think an award show is a great
business investment.
We're a nonprofit, but I wantto hand our next president cash
a strong board, strong processes, so that they can really just
take an existing system and growit rather than starting from
scratch.
And I won't say that I startedfrom scratch with my board, but
(31:21):
I just want there to be noquestions and no institutional
knowledge held within a person.
I want it to be held withindocumentation, because I'm a
nerd, like you said processesand so yeah.
So for this award show sponsorsway easier to come by than yet
another networking lunch.
Visibility into businessesEverybody wants to be an award
(31:46):
winner and this is LA-specific.
So we have an excuse to talk tobusinesses about who we are and
it's not asking something ofthem, it's giving something to
them and being able to give isso much stronger than being able
to take Right.
So getting visibility, gettingcash so there's a low but
(32:07):
existing application amount, sothat's an easy way to get cash.
It's an easy way to get in-kindsponsorships.
There could be goodie bags,there could be locations Easy
way to get visibility becausethen you ask everybody to post
about it and we're alsoincorporating some public voting
.
So there's excuse me, judgevoting and then there's also
(32:27):
public voting.
So even more ways to ridepeople's coattails and just a
generally exciting thing to doand a generally awesome way to
establish brand in a way thatisn't just yet another
networking event.
So I have kind of canceled otherinitiatives to just lean into
this.
My co-president, my vicepresident, she has done an award
(32:51):
show before.
I have worked like really bigaward shows, which isn't useful,
but I can at least attest tothe magic of them and with that
experience.
I hope that this can sort ofcreate that momentum and
excitement so that even futurevolunteers are like I want to be
a part of that.
So I'm hoping that this biginvestment and the past years of
(33:14):
focuses will lead to somebodywanting to be president so that
I can be a follower somewhere,and also somebody feeling really
good as a president and reallyequipped.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
You know, I think the intentionality with which you
have approached that entire roleis a model, and I say that
because one of the things that Imean I've been saying this for
20 years One day, somebody elseis going to sit in the chair.
I sit in.
When that happens, it doesn'tmatter what you do, if you're a
founder, if you're a leader, amiddle manager, it doesn't
matter where you're leading,somebody else is going to sit in
(33:46):
that chair.
Do you want them to walk intothe same problems you walked
into, yeah, or do you want toleave it better?
And you've been so intentionalabout creating better and
thinking about what would youhave liked to have walked into.
I'm going to create that that'sso inspirational and such a
model for every leader who islistening.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Thank you.
Yeah, you know practice.
We talked about leadership atthe beginning and I have
reflected on that and I havepracticed since I was a kid.
I have led so many thingsinternships, volunteer groups,
student projects, marching bands, nonprofits, my own initiatives
(34:31):
, other people's initiatives ledby following.
And I think to your point, ifyou just observe and try to do
even better than what you'vebeen a part of and try to model
what you respect, you createthis result of all of your
inspirations and I'm excited tokeep getting practice and
(34:52):
hopefully keep getting better.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
That's so good.
So let me ask you, andy, how doyou stay sharp, how do you stay
on top of your game and levelup with the new skills you need
to lead, Because the leader thatyour company needs a year from
now, you're not there yet.
How are you going to keepdeveloping?
What are some things that?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
you do to do that.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
There's a lot of chatter and social media about
how we always have to stay onthe cutting edge and I used to
really buy into that.
But I really think if you'retrying at your industry, you're
keeping on the cutting edge.
I don't think that's special.
Maybe software, but at the endof the day, marketing is getting
people to do something, andalways has been.
(35:36):
It's just getting a conversionand the tools by which you do
that change, but really not thatmuch.
It only makes things easier.
I'm just obsessed with readingbiographies and listening to
things like this and throughthat, everybody says to read and
(35:56):
my mentor loves audiobooks andhelped me get past the bias
against audiobooks.
I have friends who say but Idon't absorb everything, and I
was like do you absorbeverything from a real book?
No, and so I have read over 500books from the LA Public
(36:17):
Library for free usingaudiobooks.
If you don't have the app Libby, you're missing out on so much.
And it's all the classics.
I have a lot of the businessclassics and I just bought the
HBR series.
I love those Harvard BusinessReviews, like the roundups,
(36:38):
because they I'm listening tothe 100 top HBR articles on
Libby.
But I also bought the booksbecause they're so good that I
want to highlight them.
It's not cheap.
It's like a $70 book, like fivebooks set, but I wanted that
pack.
That was really important to mePracticing elsewhere, including
(37:00):
like creative practice.
So I have creative practiceoutside of this work and I get
to be silly in the tools that Iuse every day.
I made a website for somefriends and it has like a really
sassy button and it leads to aRick Roll and that's only
something that I could do inlike a super silly context and
(37:23):
that even the award show.
Actually this is a volunteerposition, but I'm.
You know, google Sheets has atimeline function.
Please go check it out.
It's brand new and I got toimplement this timeline function
, which is so nerdy, but youknow I got to do that.
I got to do design again.
I got to think about reachingout to sponsorships.
(37:44):
And doing something outside ofyour daily expertise will
cross-pollinate into your day today and means that I'm a
competent social media manager.
Something that I absolutelydespised was when I worked with
people who really didn't knowanything about the platforms
anymore.
I'm getting that way becausewhen your job becomes management
(38:08):
and the tools move quick,that's rough but I can still get
in front of someone and onaverage, I design on Canva three
times faster than one of myteam members.
Still, part of it's frompracticing elsewhere, part of
it's because the tool is reallyold and I've been using it for a
really long time, and so Ithink that builds respect
(38:28):
through natural skill, and I dothat by having a context outside
of work where I'm not savingpeople by doing the work.
So, books, being the presidentof the social media club, I've
been attending events for 11years and I've been managing
them for three.
You naturally get in front ofpeople through that network and
(38:50):
just trying to stay freshthrough creative practice
outside of my day to day work.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
It's so easy to look at your story and what we've
heard today from you and think,wow some people maybe listen to
this or watching this and saying, oh wow, her journey has just
been up into the right, it'sjust all good.
Every year is better than theone before and everything's
great.
There's no struggles, there'sno challenges and that's
(39:17):
entrepreneurial life right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Yeah, there's no struggles, no challenges, oh no,
so no, absolutely not.
Yeah, of course not.
I think in the end, hopefullyit is I, so I stepping back.
My dad died when I was 22suddenly and it meant that I had
(39:41):
to drop everything and gomanage funerals and estate
issues and pets when I was superyoung in South Carolina, just
across the country, which isexpensive and funerals are
expensive.
Death in general is expensiveand I'm still dealing with admin
from that frickin' estate andthat was pivotal.
(40:07):
It's a really big wake up callreally early in life and you
know something that you dealwith for a long time, and so
that was part of my early careerjourney and helped me realize
that I didn't want to work inunkind places.
I life's too short and that canreally impact you long term.
(40:28):
And so I started my company,leaving CBS during Me Too, and
with a focus on being kind topeople and knowing that that was
going to be expensive and slow,and what I started with was
photography.
I find social media completelyexhausting.
It's a tabloid, it's daily workand it is unrelenting.
(40:51):
There is no stop.
It's a marriage Like it's a,and it's a marriage with daily
work, and I loved photographybecause there was a beginning
and an end and rest, and Ineeded that, and so I leaned
into that and we got huge In2020, we were lined up mostly me
, but like me, occasionallyworking with people to shoot an
(41:14):
eclipse in Patagonia, chile, amusic festival in Canada, tour
with a metal band, work withsnowboarders in Oregon and in
the Caribbean, and multiple ofevents and so I realized like,
oh, I can create sort of sideprojects through headshots, food
(41:34):
photography and productphotography and I was doing a
lot of shoots in my one bedroomapartment in LA and kicking my
husband out in order to do it,and it just wasn't sustainable.
And so I was like I need a placeto work and so I signed at
least February 1st 2020 for mythriving photography career,
(41:54):
which was the worst day to signa lease of all time.
Oh my goodness and I took my gigin the Caribbean.
I had a little bit of a hintthat I'd be okay and I ended up
flying home from that gig theday before the country shut down
and all airports shut downPeople in hazmat suits like
(42:16):
Amish people and missionariesfleeing their country of where
they were living just bananaslike experience, and my company
completely went under.
I drained my retirement just alot of things and then, in
December of 2020, I signed USC.
(42:37):
But of course, that was anawful year.
It was really awful foreverybody.
But talk about feeling likefailure and talk about feeling
like it was time to get anotherjob, and I think everybody but
I'd heard this, I'd listened toso many biographies and so many
stories and luckily had anawesome partner and awesome
(43:01):
friends and an awesome mentorand decided to stick with it and
that was what led to absolutelythriving and we went from zero
to three to five, to 15, to 20.
And I don't have fantasies ofbeing massive, I just have
(43:27):
fantasies of taking care ofpeople, and so I don't know what
the future will bring, but I amjust really happy that I gave
it the time of investment and Isort of stuck with the sunk cost
fallacy of I'm going to keeptrying and I'd heard so many
people say that and I'd heard somuch success from that and I
(43:50):
was also ready just to tellpeople I had failed and embraced
all of that and I'm reallyhappy I did and it's a great
story to tell now, but it wasreally horrible to go through.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
I think there's a whole lot of people listening
who can resonate with that.
And one of the challenges and Ithink social media plays right
into this is you're comparingyour every day to somebody
else's highlight reel, you'recomparing your chapter three to
somebody else's chapter 15.
(44:22):
We have to be so careful doingthat, particularly as leaders,
as the teams we lead.
The people who we influencefollow our lead, and if we lose
hope, if we get discouraged,they're going to follow.
So, true, thank you for sharingthat.
That was such a powerful story,and I know it's so much more
(44:43):
comfortable on this side of it.
But you know, one thing I oftensay is that there's no such
thing as a wasted experience.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
And everything that you and I have been through has
made us who we are today.
We would not be who we aretoday without those experiences
Good, bad and ugly.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Absolutely, absolutely Of course.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Is there all the books that you've read and I
love that you're such avoracious reader Is there a book
that has made a big differencein your journey, something that
you would recommend thateverybody listening put on their
TREAD list if they haven't readit?
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Gosh, yeah, it's always a hard question for me
because I'm obsessed, but theone that comes to mind today is
Give and Take by Adam Grant,that's a great book.
It's so good.
You know it's getting up there.
It might be eight years old,maybe more.
Adam Grant will be one of yourbest social media follows of all
(45:37):
time.
He's a behavioral psychologistat Wharton and just is doing
research in kindness and what.
There's a couple of things thathappens in there, but one of
the things is he dichotomizesgivers, takers, and then
actually matches.
So it's not a dichotomy andunderstanding if you're someone
(45:58):
who gives to the point of pain,if you're someone who takes,
who's maybe causing pain toothers, and if you're someone
who sees something and youexactly match and understanding
yourself and then understandingthe people that you're working
with and utilizing that.
If someone's a taker and you'rea giver, making sure that you
create boundaries there If yougive too much, which is
(46:22):
something I have tackled.
I have a church background andI have a Mexican background and
I'm a woman and there's lots ofreasons why I have been
culturally encouraged to giveeverything to the point of, you
know, losing your health, losingyour sanity, losing your money,
and so tackling that part of mewhile also keeping the fact
(46:44):
that I like that part of me hasbeen a huge part.
And the last thing I'll say isnegotiation.
This changed my life and somany of my friends' lives.
Negotiate as if you'redefending one of your friends.
If you're a giver, think aboutthe Mandy that is your friend,
because givers will defend tothe end for the people that they
(47:06):
care about and they will notdefend for themselves.
And so let's say nowadays I usethis in business, but before I
used it in salary negotiation myfriend, Mandy A, is a leader in
the workplace.
She has done so much more thanher job description.
Here's the reasons andabilities why Her industry is
(47:27):
far better paid and so shedeserves just to be to match
that industry and see like shehas a lifestyle that she needs
support, and that lifestyle isbarely affording rent in as very
expensive city and being ableto, you know, save money for the
non-retirement that hergeneration is going to have.
And she deserves it, she'sworked hard for it and she needs
(47:50):
it.
And so walk into thatnegotiation with the confidence
of defending that person thatisn't you.
It's so good.
It's so good.
And you know now that I have anentity that isn't me anymore.
I can defend that.
But defending that being takingyour given tendency and
(48:12):
actually using it for what youmight perceive as aggression,
which is really just taking careof yourself with people that
have assets that they canreallocate.
Like this is not.
You're not taking, you're nothurting anybody, You're just
getting what you need.
And in this case, now I'mdefending people again and so
I'm creating salaries and incomefor people and they deserve the
(48:36):
best, and I will defend ontheir behalf that.
I got a 50% raise after I readthat book and five zero and that
, yeah, just a game changer, andI'm still not great at it, Like
I'm still actually quiteterrible at it, but I'm much
better than I used to be and I'mmuch better at identifying that
tendency within myself and sortof tackling it earlier than I
(48:58):
used to.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
You know, one thing I've heard throughout this
conversation is how much youvalue the people who are on your
team.
I think one of the greatestprivileges of a leader is to
equip and empower their team tosucceed, and something you said
just to mend ago made me thinkof the other side of that, which
is to stand in front of themand to protect them, and that I
(49:24):
sense that in you and that'sjust a, that's just a part of
who you are, and I think that'ssuch a wonderful thing.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Thank you, anxiety medication helps, but you know,
and it's really hard.
It's so hard.
But chat, you can scriptconversations everybody.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Just don't take them and use them just like they are.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Hello, I hope you're having a great day today.
It's so helpful.
Yeah, negotiations are reallyhard, but it's it's important,
it's it's the job I have now.
It's I have to rise to thatoccasion.
I have not always a rise tothat occasion and my team
brought that up because I have acompany where people are
(50:13):
allowed to bring something likethat up and I took that
seriously and that's actuallybeen a focus of mine this year
is to defend people and to getin the way, to give people the
independence to take care ofthemselves, but then, at the end
of the day, to be the businessowner and stand by the values
that I preach.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
I love that you give your team that freedom.
I talked to my clients oftenabout what I call the last 10%
of honesty.
You know, the first 90% isreally easy for us to give to
one another, but we typicallyhold back the last 10% because
we don't want to break or damagea relationship, we don't want
to offend somebody, so we holdthat back.
The problem is, the last 10% ofhonesty is where the
(50:51):
transformation lives.
That's where the magic is, andI don't get better without that
last 10%, and neither do you,and so I've tried to create a
culture with my on my team aswell, where it's not just that I
want the last 10%, I need it, Iexpect it, and there is that
openness, there is that freedom,and that's what it sounds like
you've created as well.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Do you give it, and so something I've reflected a
lot on is what percentage oftransparency helps and what
percentage of transparency hurts.
I used to go with the approachof absolute, but I found that
that actually led to kind ofasking for emotional support
(51:32):
from my team instead of being aleader, and so you know,
absolutely I want my team to beradically candid.
I'm curious what you thinkabout that.
Do you think you give 100% ofthe information or do you curate
the information?
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yeah, that's a different question, and when I
talk about the last 10% ofhonesty, I'm talking about a
project on performance or thingslike that, and it comes to
things that you carry, that Icarry as the point leader and I
don't have the context andoftentimes they don't have the
ability to carry that.
(52:12):
They didn't sign up to carrythat.
So if we try to place that onthem, we're actually doing them
a disservice.
That's not honoring to them toask them to carry something that
they they aren't, they didn'tsign up for, they didn't sign up
to carry that.
This is what I what I talked tomy clients about when I'm
coaching them.
So often we run into trouble asleaders when we take things home
(52:33):
and we we dump things on ourspouse.
Well, they're supportive of us,they're cheering us on, they're
cheering us on, but they didn'tsign up to lead what we lead.
You're asking them to carrysomething they're not equipped
or that they signed up to handle, and our team is the same way.
We have to learn as leaderswhat we can share and what we
(52:53):
need to share somewhere else, ina different context.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (52:58):
Yeah, I love the concept that your spouse can't
be everything.
They just can't they can't andyou have to find support systems
and figure out support, butalso things like journaling,
things like therapy, likefinding that support elsewhere.
I something I've thought aboutcreating that boundary with work
(53:19):
was something I had to learnearly and something I have been
reflecting on this year isenergy theft.
So I was ending at five, isending at six, like whenever my
partner is getting home, and Iwas exhausted.
I went straight to bed.
I didn't make dinner, it wasminimal.
We spent like completely zonedout time together I and so I had
(53:43):
finished on time, but I hadactually given all my energy to
that day because I was.
It was possible, but it waspossible because I took
everything else from the othereight hours in my day and that,
and then it was leaking intoSaturdays.
I was spending time withfriends falling asleep on their
couch and, yes, there's hustleperiods and there's rest periods
(54:05):
, but the thing I'm reflectingon now and because I have a
really great team that'sincredibly supportive and that's
a whole other aspect is notonly protecting the people from
that stress and holding it, notcreating more of it and not
welcoming more of it, but thenalso asking for so much balance
(54:26):
that I go home with energy, andthat's a whole new frontier that
I'm working on.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
I think that's fantastic.
You know it's like anythingelse, it's intentionality.
You know it's being purposefuland saying I'm going to make
sure that I'm not going toexpend everything in my wallet
before the end of the month.
I'm going to make sure I don'texpend every bit of energy that
I have before the relationshipsthat matter most, Right?
Yeah, that's so, so good.
(54:55):
This has been such a great,great conversation, Mandy.
I want to thank you for theinsights and the wisdom that
you've shared.
People typically walk away froman episode like this with one
big idea.
If you were to define that bigidea the one thing you want
everybody listening to walk awaywith what would you want that
to be?
Speaker 3 (55:14):
You can't take care of others until you take care of
yourself.
It's so cliche but it's so true.
And taking care of yourselfmight mean a lot more than what
it means to other people.
You know there's some peopletaking care of themselves as
waking up at six and doing yogaand whatever all their things.
(55:38):
It's such an LA thing to say,doing yoga, meditating, burning
your stage but sometimes itmight mean, you know, whole
weekends where you do nothing.
It might mean, you know,getting support with chores.
It might mean complete silence.
It might mean more time offthan you perceive other people
(55:59):
as having.
But getting past thatperception and really, really
actually having a full cup thatcan actually pour into other
cups takes a lot of boundariesand you won't take care of them
until you take care of you.
And I think it's a lesson thatwe all keep learning and keep
(56:22):
having to recenter, but in apost COVID world where we're
doing other things again,remembering what that balance is
and recalibrating if you haveto.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
What a great way to top on this conversation.
I know people are going to wantto stay connected with you and
continue learning from you,Mandy.
What is the best way for themto do that?
Speaker 3 (56:44):
I'm trying to do better on LinkedIn.
You can.
You'll probably find my name inthe show notes and I'm media
Mandy everywhere Zole.
We're always experimenting withour social channels.
So if you want to see how we'redoing that, we're Zole studio,
where the name comes from mixedheritage because we're a
multicultural agency.
So Zole is for, zole, it's aMexican soup, and so Le and
(57:08):
French is son, and so sort ofcombining those two elements ZOL
, a Y studio.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
We'll have those links in the show.
Speaker 3 (57:18):
Thank, you so much.
This was awesome.
Speaker 2 (57:21):
Thanks for joining me for this episode today.
As we wrap up, I'd love for youto do two things.
First, subscribe to thispodcast so you don't miss an
episode, and if you find valuehere, I'd love it if you would
rate it and review it.
That really does make adifference in helping other
people to discover this podcast.
Second, if you don't have acopy of my newest book,
(57:43):
Catalytic Leadership, I'd loveto put a copy in your hands.
If you go tocatalyticleadershipbookcom, you
can get a copy for free.
Just pay the shipping so I canget it to you and we'll get one
right out.
My goal is to put this into thehands of as many leaders as
possible.
This book captures principlesthat I've learned in 20 plus
(58:05):
years of coaching leaders in theentrepreneurial space, in
business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church
.
You can also connect with me onLinkedIn to keep up with what
I'm currently learning andthinking about.
If you're ready to take a nextstep with a coach to help you
intentionally grow and thrive asa leader, I'd be honored to
(58:27):
help you.
Just go tocatalyticleadershipnet to book a
call with me.
Stay tuned for our next episodenext week.
Until then, as always, leaderschoose to be catalytic.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr
William Attaway.
Be sure to subscribe whereveryou listen to podcasts so you
don't miss the next episode.
Want more?
Go to catalyticleadershipnet.
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, it's William and welcome to today's episode of
the Catalytic Leadership podcast.
Each week, we tackle a topicrelated to the field of
leadership.
My goal is to ensure that youhave actionable steps you can
take from each episode to growin your own leadership.
Growth doesn't just happen.
My goal is to help you becomeintentional about it.
(00:37):
Each week, we spotlight leadersfrom a variety of fields,
organizations and locations.
My goal is for you to see thatleaders can be catalytic, no
matter where they are or whatthey lead.
I draw inspiration from thestories and journeys of these
leaders and I hear from many ofyou that you do too.
Let's jump in to today'sinterview.
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I'm so excited today to haveMandy Hoskinson on the podcast.
Mandy, also known as Media Mandy, is a talented digital marketer
and visual artist based in LosAngeles, california.
She has a passion for digitalmarketing and community
management, which began duringher time at UCLA, where she
co-launched the universitysocial media platforms.
(01:21):
After her successful experienceat UCLA, mandy took on various
roles in the digital marketingindustry, including work for LA
2028, apple, fox TV and CBS.
As she gained more experienceand recognition in the field,
mandy started to work as afreelance digital marketer,
taking on small projects onweekends and evenings.
(01:43):
Over time, her client base grewand they began to request
additional services likephotography, videography,
analytics, print, marketing,design and more.
This led to the establishmentof Mandy's own boutique
marketing agency, media MandyAgency, which has since
rebranded as Zolle studio.
Mandy, I'm so glad you're here.
(02:03):
Thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I'm stoked that bio sounds so cool.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, it's you so I hope?
No, really, but really we'reglad you're here.
I'd love for you to share alittle bit of your story.
I kind of hit some of the hotpoints, but I'd love to hear
more about your journey and yourdevelopment, particularly as a
leader.
How did you get started?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Oh, I love that.
I've been reflecting a lot onhow millennials were raised to
be leaders.
This is a huge part of oureducation.
Frankly, I don't know wherethat came from, but I was raised
by a military commander whowent to West Point, so it was
always sort of in my blood.
(02:48):
I was also just like the bossykid growing up and so, like
anyone who didn't want to leadthe group project or you know
all the like kids games, Ialways wanted to lead and that,
of course, when you're a kid andwhen you're a young girl is
considered bossy.
(03:08):
But I've found as an adult thata lot of people have talents as
leaders and a lot of peoplehave talents as followers and
actually have preferences, andso you know that gives me the
most joy.
And so, you know, throughout mycareer I found myself leading
lots of things and in myindustry which didn't exist when
(03:30):
I started my career, that wasincredibly important because you
had to be willing to take risks, you had to be willing to sort
of pretend like you know whatyou were doing and you had to be
willing to take people in acompletely new direction that
you weren't sure would end uphelpful.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
That's good.
So at this point in yourjourney, how would you define
leadership?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I have with a company that septupled.
In a year, I went very quicklyfrom a coworker to a manager.
I think a lot of people gothrough that journey where they
are suddenly thrust intomanaging a lot of people, be it
in a volunteer capacity or in awork capacity, and so now I just
(04:24):
see myself as an obstacleremover and a general health
supporter.
The number one value at mycompany is to take care of our
team.
I don't think you get good workand good results without, first
and foremost, your team beingtaken care of, and so I center
that, and that has led todecisions that aren't good for
(04:45):
business but are good for people, and I think I've gained
commitment from the right typeof people who really, really
valued that over people whovalue hustle and high
achievement.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, no, that's really good.
I love that obstacle remover.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's so fantastic.
I think that's something everyleader can do and should aspire
to, because if we're removingobstacles from our team, how
does that not help everybody besuccessful?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah.
And at the end of the day, nowmy job, my responsibility and
inevitably what I will fall foris people's success, and I have
found that workplaces that seemlike they care about me first
are places that I'll stay uplate for.
They're places that I'll go theextra mile for, but it's always
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at the right time and I alwaysknow that when things are hard I
can also ask for that, and Ithink in our culture that's a
luxury.
It shouldn't be, but it is aluxury and I want to be a place
where that's what's available.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Love that.
So stepping from working forother people now to leading your
own agency, that's a verydifferent world.
Have you discovered some waysto lead an agency effectively?
Speaker 3 (06:07):
So I started really young.
I started in my mid-20s thiscompany and I started working
really young and so that led togoing into entrepreneurship
young and I've spoken to somepeople who say you're so lucky.
You're so lucky that you gotthis head start in this thing
(06:29):
and in other ways.
I'll talk to other businessowners who did the same thing
and we always tell each other Iwish I could go have a job, I
wish I could go be managed or gohave an internship, like I'm
hungry for these learningopportunities because I don't
have as much inspiration fromgoing through that.
I worked at agencies, I workedin house, I worked at nonprofits
(06:53):
, I worked for corporations, andso I did get a taste of how
each of those are run.
I think my kindness comes fromworking at kind nonprofits.
I early on got to see.
I worked for David Geer,richard Geer's brother's
nonprofit, the Art and GlobalHealth Center.
Super cool, basically workingon the thesis that art can
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change the world.
And that team is the kindestteam I've ever worked with.
They moved slow and that was.
Another lesson is that if you'regoing to be kind to people,
you're not going to have thespeed that other companies that
aren't kind to people have, andthat is something that, to the
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point of the agency is somethingthat I communicate with people
from the very beginning is thatwe're a people-led agency and in
social media, which isessentially a tabloid, that can
be frustrating, like clientswant immediate results and they
want to feel like you'rein-house.
But we're not in-house, we'rean agency.
(07:58):
You get the benefit of eightpeople for the cost of one when
you work with an agency, so wehave so much talent.
But also I'm the poop shield.
We'll say and my job is to sayhey, it's 5 am, which means it's
2 am for my Hawaii team member.
(08:20):
She's going to get to it and Ipromise your results are going
to be similar and that meansthat I'm not calling my team
member at 2 am for somethingthat I've decided as your senior
strategist, can take a hit forsomething else for us to go the
extra mile next time.
So communicating early.
It's actually in their handbookwhat our turnaround times are.
(08:40):
It's in their initial trainingand it's in their contract that
they understand that this is howwe work and, interestingly, I
have led clients to be better totheir team.
This is really cool.
This just happened this year,so I went to San Francisco with
a client and we are actuallysubcontracted through another
(09:02):
agency, so it's an agencyworking for an agency working
for a client, and they knew thatwe take two weeks off at the
holidays radical in America,right?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Just absolutely unheard of.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
And they said how do you do it?
And I said A we tell people allyear, it's in their handbook,
it's in their contract, and westart planning in August.
B we have a skeleton crew.
There's always somebody who'shome, there's always someone who
has hours now so that they cantake three weeks in the summer.
And when your team that caresabout each other and your team
(09:38):
first, the team understands thatI get to have a full Christmas
because this other team memberis filling in for me, and so in
that summer I'm going to takemaybe a heavier load in the
summertime because I get that.
And that's the team caringabout each other.
(10:00):
It's not the company tellingyou what to do.
And yeah, and so those are thetwo things that have led to
balance.
And so this year that client isimplementing two weeks off for
the first time with a businessowner who's got 30 years on me,
and so that's really inspiring.
It shows me that not only doesthat method work, it also
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inspires people.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely.
As you said earlier, when youtake care of your people, that
creates a whole differentenvironment, and I think we're
seeing that in the broaderculture, slowly but surely
moving that direction.
Getting humans first what anovel idea.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah, yeah, and I think post-pandemic and bossy
millennials and bossy Gen Z, allof that these are values that
people want to be hired for, andI was just this morning reading
about caretaking and how it'sone of the least visible jobs in
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America, where people have afull-time job and they're
caretaking, and how most peopleare about to enter.
Because of boomers, aging, mostpeople are about to enter
potentially caretaking for oneperson, if not also their
families, and this kind of thingis just going to have to be a
part of the culture.
Otherwise, entire swaths of thework, like work culture and
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also really great minds, reallyhardworking minds, are going to
be lost, and so I want to beready for that and so I'm
practicing for that.
Before the performance Smart.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
That's what great leaders do we think ahead and
plan for what's ahead of us.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, I hope so.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, you seem like a pretty systematic thinker and
here in how you're saying westarted in August planning
knowing we're going to havethese two weeks off.
It's in the manual, Likeeverybody knows.
It's in the contract.
Everybody knows this is coming.
We communicate it often,frequently.
Are there other processes ortech maybe that you use as you
are running an agency?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Oh man, I was told by a recent oncomer that Zolei
clearly chooses the exact besttool for the job and that means
that there's a lot of softwarelearning, which is really good
feedback, because as we grow upand as we work with more complex
industries, we're hiring peoplethat have been in the workplace
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longer and that means that theydon't necessarily have the
native experience of thesesoftwares and within a day
you're probably working withinseven softwares at Zolei, maybe.
I know, I know I'm bad.
It's bad.
I really do love thisoptimization tech.
So we live on Slack.
(12:40):
I really like this, because somany things can be a Slack
message over an email.
It does get overwhelming, andso we have a lot of rules around
Slack.
We teach people how to muteSlack.
We teach people when to tag.
We teach people how to haveconversations there so that
everything's hyper organized.
That means and especially insocial media, like there's like
(13:02):
design revisions and copyrevisions we put our calendars
and air table.
We used to be in Google Sheets.
Air table is utterly fantasticand so much more robust, and
client feedback has beenfantastic there.
I started using toggle, whichmeasures people's time by client
.
I tried really hard to notmeasure by client for a really
(13:24):
long time.
In social media, you can workon five clients in an hour.
It's quick, and so I hate micromanagement.
I think it's inefficient.
But really what we were findingis that people were spending too
many hours on clients and sothis was actually out of care
for the person.
Is that, hey, you have thismany hours allotted per client
(13:49):
and your time is being sucked bythis, and we had a feeling of
that.
We had one client that wasusing double their hours, which
was like wild, and this was achoice.
Everybody has seasons.
That's why we have retainers,so that we can hustle for you in
your hustle season and we canrest with you in your rest
(14:09):
season, and so we were hustlingfor them.
We knew that that was going tobe required, but we needed to
reduce and we needed that data,so that really helped.
Gusto for hours reporting,goodness Sprout social for
scheduling, canva for design.
So there's a lot in a day and Iactually am considering
(14:30):
reducing our tech stack, but inthe meantime, my tech nerdiness
really comes through there, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I think that's great, and I think finding the right
tool that does what you wantedto do makes a big difference.
I spoke at a conference formarketing agency owners this
last weekend down in Tampa, andI always like to walk around and
talk to some of the sponsorsand the vendors to learn what's
the latest and greatest.
What are you working on, what'snew?
And I learned a great deal, butunless you're constantly
(15:01):
keeping apprised on what's goingon, it's hard to know.
Hey, something else justhappened, this is something new.
This might be more helpful thanthese three things you've been
doing.
So I love that and I think ifit takes six or seven, then it
takes six or seven.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And, first of all, great social media posts for all
business owners out there.
I always ask people what theirtech stack is and they always
end up making it a social mediapost because we all want to hear
what you're up to.
Also, you can just search techstack on LinkedIn and Twitter.
X users love to share that andstartup rows as much as we love
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them and love to not love them.
They are cutting edge softwareusers.
They're maybe beta testingstuff, and that is where I
learned about AI tools superearly.
And the last thing I'll saythis is a hack within social
media managers is coupon codeson Twitter.
So all these people are tryingout these early.
(16:02):
They're early adopters and soeverybody gets these really
great codes.
I won't say what AI tool I got50% off of, but it was $700
discount because of a hiddenTwitter code from a really early
adopter that was nine monthsold, and so this hack has been
like a.
Yeah, it's been a game changerbecause I've been willing to
(16:23):
take risks on tools because it'sso much cheaper.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So good, so good.
I love that.
Yeah, let's talk AI, since youbrought it.
So, how are you seeing thisbeing used right now in
marketing and social media, evenin art?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Yeah, I'll plug that I consult with CEOs on AI, just
because I love to talk about itso much that people hear about
it.
And then I've hosted two lunchand learns with the social media
club of LA, which is completelyrecorded on our Facebook page,
which was fantastic.
One was with Adobe someone whoworked on the Adobe AI, and the
(17:04):
other was with three peoplewhere we looked over their
shoulders so they shared theirscreen on how they use one AI
tool in a day, and that wasfantastic and I should probably
bring it back.
Wow, I'm a super AI nerd.
My entire company shares a chatGPT pro account, just like
Netflix.
Don't get mad at me.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I'm a small business owner.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And then the super cool part of this is that we can
see what each other is doing.
Here's the big hack ChatGPT canwrite your prompts for you.
So one of the things that I dois I've actually written a page
of teaching ChatGPT about theclient brand rules, good posts,
(17:50):
what to do, what not to do, howto use emoji, how to use
hashtags, common links, commonline breaks this is really deep
in the AI community is how toteach it first.
Then what you say is what elsedo you need to know?
This is the AI hack.
Then it will ask you more.
(18:11):
Then you answer all of that andthen you compile this all into
a document and you say, hey,okay, we're going to write posts
for this brand.
Here's what you need to know.
It goes okay.
Then it can go read articles,it can read PDFs, it can read
transcripts from interviews andAI is your co-pilot right,
that's the name of one of them,but we never, ever, ever hand
(18:33):
the client something completelyAI created but, especially
something like a transcript.
That is saving the client money.
What we're finding is that weare giving people more options.
That has been a huge luxury isthat if we used to give them two
copy options, we might givethem three, because it gave us
(18:54):
another great idea that helpseverybody.
I absolutely love ChatGPT, midJourney, the AI image creator.
I'm officially able to read MidJourney.
It has such a specific visualvoice and I use it enough.
It's $20 a month, it's Discord,and so it's like kind of
(19:14):
complex to figure out.
I love it and just for the sakeof understanding how to talk to
AI, something really cool aboutMid Journey is you can tell it
to describe an image and howthat image would be prompted,
and so if you're not sure, yeah,and also on Reddit and YouTube,
you'll find Google Docsteaching ChatGPT how to prompt
(19:36):
Mid Journey, and so, yeah, it'samazing.
It's amazing and so, like youcan use anything, especially if
you're paying for Pro ChatGPT,because it can go learn about
the tool on its own.
You can use any AI tool andthen have ChatGPT do it for you,
and that is phenomenal.
That administration andlearning is completely skipped.
(19:57):
So that has been a game changerfor me and AI In terms of art.
I'm really intrigued by it.
It really matters where you'retaking the art from, and a lot
of these data sources aren'tdisclosed.
Adobe uses its own imagelibrary and it is not great, and
so you know the cost of it.
(20:19):
I understand why somebody wouldsay that AI art is an art, but
we used to say that on Photoshopand we did.
We used to say that that'sabsolutely not art and that is,
like now, accepted as absolutelyan art tool and so most really
good AI art takes about 100iterations, it takes so many
(20:41):
refinements and you can add yourown images to it, and so I
think we're going to have tounderstand the tool and people
who don't understand the tool,the people that are just like
it's not art, it's bad, it'swhatever.
They don't use the tool, and Ithink you know we're going to
need to start understanding thatprompt engineering is a job and
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is an art form and, yes, datasources matter, but collages are
, photoshop is collage and mostpeople are taking things from
the internet and we havecopyright law.
I'm not a lawyer.
We have copyright law aboutproper modification and AI art
is probably the most intenseversion of modification.
(21:22):
So I'm not.
I don't have hard opinions, butI think these people, before
you have an opinion and beforeyou let people tell you to have
an opinion, go use the toolyourself, because I think you're
going to have a more in-depthunderstanding of it and be able
to actually have a realconversation about it.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
That is so thoughtful and so good.
I like that.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I haven't thought through this stuff, so thanks
for asking.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
You know so much in the digital space right now is
talking about social media, andthis is.
This is just a hot topic ofconversation.
Where's it going?
What's next?
Where do we think it's going togo from here?
I would love to hear yourthoughts around that.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
It's always fun when people care about your job.
Yeah, I don't know Podcasting.
I don't know if it's really hitthe news There'll be trends or
like earnings from podcasts ormaybe a big one will get sold to
Spotify.
But it's always funny whenpeople just like suddenly start
caring.
Of course, like this podcastwould care, but you know my
friends and family will be likeoh, you have a real job Somebody
(22:28):
recently at a party said oh,you just finished a Goldman
Sachs business program.
Does that mean you're going toget a job?
And I was like I have 20employees, You're right what?
It's also pretty wild thatthat's the case, right, it's I?
You know we had a one personteam.
(22:50):
I've worked for the ITdepartment.
I've worked for the photographydepartment, where social media
was born in a company Highlyimpacts what you're allowed to
do, the resources you have andhow you approach it, and that
has been fascinating.
And I always ask clients likewhere does your social media
team sit?
Because it tells me whatapproach you're going to take,
(23:10):
whether or not you want to.
That's good.
In terms of social, the mostinteresting social right now is
LinkedIn and has been for abouttwo years.
It is absolutely blowing up.
Users are increasingexponentially and one of my
metrics for it was when willsomebody post a gym picture?
(23:32):
And that has officiallyhappened on my feed, which means
we're hitting it as socialmedia.
It's not just a place for jobseekers yeah, especially for
people here on this podcast.
I'm sure they've heard it amillion times.
Being there is really important.
It's a really important placeto establish your voice and I'm
officially recommending thatpeople Disinvest from company
(23:54):
pages and start investing in CEOsocial because we're tired of
brands.
We know it, we understand it.
I really believe that we'releaving the snark phase of
social and moving into thekindness and vulnerability phase
of social.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Oh, I hope so.
Oh, my goodness, I hope, that'strue.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Yeah, and like you build your own feed, and so if
you complain about a socialmedia channel to me, I just
understand that your algorithmis optimized for anger, which
that is how social media willautomatically treat you if you
either don't optimize it foryourself or if you are sort of
neutral.
But if you optimize forpositivity and inspiration,
(24:35):
that's what you're going to get,and there's a lot of people
doing that.
There's a lot of people gettingreally vulnerable.
Sarah Blakely has been reallygood at this for a really long
time of Spanx.
I highly recommend checking herout her podcast with how I
built this and you'll see you'rejust seeing it everywhere.
In some ways, it's leading to PRcrises.
(24:56):
Some CEOs go a little toovulnerable, right, like they
don't know how to do this orthey don't have the right
support, and so it's risky, butit's really, really important.
I don't know if X is going todie, but I've never seen a
social media platform ever inthe news more Maybe Facebook
(25:17):
during its court case, but it'sstaying in the news, which is
fascinating to me.
I love threads.
Threads is a social mediafavorite right now, social media
manager favorite, and that'simportant, like it's important
that your social media manageris there.
It's also important thatFacebook and Instagram are
dumping money into it.
(25:37):
I won't say where, but when Iworked creating Facebook live
videos, we were paid 10,000 aminute to go live by Facebook,
not to Facebook.
We were paid as a brand to golive and my job was to go live
for 300 minutes a month and if Imissed a single minute I lost
my company $10,000.
(25:58):
And that was a lot of pressureand you should know that.
Everything gaming, dating,groups they invest a lot of
money into it and they don'twant it to die.
They're really quicklyinnovating it and they really
pushed it fast, so I'm intriguedby that.
This really isn't an answer,but I think LinkedIn and threads
(26:18):
are the most interesting thingand I think vulnerability is
something to lean into.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
That's so fascinating .
I spend more of my time onLinkedIn than any of the others
and I find the conversationsthere once you get through some
of the spammy stuff, but so manyof the conversations there are
so different and richer in somany ways.
So I just I would agreecompletely on that one.
I have not spent a lot of timeon threads.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
It's fun, but after this conversation.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I feel like I should.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
It's quirky, but if you want that coveted
interaction, techcrunch hasinteracted with me.
The LA Times meme account whichis amazing followed me.
If you remember the Early ClubHouse Days, which is better for
individuals, I'm sure you werethere.
That was a place where yourapidly networked and so if you
just want to see where brandsare being edgy, it's a great
(27:13):
place.
I gave my writer she writes fortelevision I gave my writer
100% freedom on our threadsbecause it's just a fun place to
experiment and it's been goinggreat.
She's super funny and I alwaysbelieve that everybody should
have a creative outlet at workand I'm hoping that that is what
that's doing for her.
(27:33):
I'll say on LinkedIn, they'realgorithmically weak, so
newsletters are huge there and Idon't know about you, but I'm
getting like three 10 newsletterinvites a day.
Two years ago, newsletters wasmy hack.
Nowadays there's too many andwhere do you find them?
It's impossible to find them.
They push to your email, but ifyou go find them, you're just
(27:54):
going to see a list of them, sothen you have to go click to
each one individually.
It's not delivering to yourfeed.
Articles are also pretty bad,but the hack I'll say right now
is go write the AI articles.
You can search topics and I'mgetting emails from LinkedIn
employees just because of myinteractions there.
(28:15):
That's an interesting place tobuild expertise and it's
honestly just a really funexercise to write about your
expertise.
And anytime a social mediaprofile or social media platform
pushes your interaction withsomething, that's something to
work on, and so it now pushes soand so contributed to this
(28:39):
article into the feed and, onceagain, if a social media
platform pushes out an update,they're going to invest money
and give you a lot of freeimpressions for this because
they want it to succeed.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
So good, so good.
You have some experience therein LA as the president of the
social media club.
What are some initiatives, whatare some projects and key
projects that you have worked onthere to foster community and
professional development in thisdigital marketing field?
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yeah, one of the things that the club didn't have
was documentation and templates, which is so boring but so
important.
So I was given the club to keepon life support during the
pandemic.
A lot of people, their livesare changing.
They were moving, their job gota lot harder.
(29:38):
There was a generational change.
There's a huge generationalchange in a lot of organizations
I'm part of right now, where Ithink these are organizations
that people join when they'retrying to grow their career and
once you hit a career moment,you don't feel a need to have it
.
You have the network you want,you have the position you want,
and so I used that year, whichwas slow.
(30:01):
We were an in-person eventsspecialty organization and we
had a small board and I justused that year for admin,
created the first handbook,created a bunch of processes,
worked with someone to createcanva templates.
So all that boringadministration, because my end
goal is to hand this to the nextpresident very strong, I just
(30:22):
want a really strong org.
The next year, I wanted tocreate regular events.
So we created regular digitalevents and we update our email
and this year we're relaunchingan award show called the Hashis,
which I am really excited aboutit.
This award show has actuallyexisted around the country
(30:43):
because Social Media Club isinternational and it has a great
name it's called the Hashis.
However, in LA that word has adifferent connotation, but I'm
kind of writing the fame of thatconnotation because of other
industries that are massive here.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Different industry.
That's right yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, but you know, I think an award show is a great
business investment.
We're a nonprofit, but I wantto hand our next president cash
a strong board, strong processes, so that they can really just
take an existing system and growit rather than starting from
scratch.
And I won't say that I startedfrom scratch with my board, but
(31:21):
I just want there to be noquestions and no institutional
knowledge held within a person.
I want it to be held withindocumentation, because I'm a
nerd, like you said processesand so yeah.
So for this award show sponsorsway easier to come by than yet
another networking lunch.
Visibility into businessesEverybody wants to be an award
(31:46):
winner and this is LA-specific.
So we have an excuse to talk tobusinesses about who we are and
it's not asking something ofthem, it's giving something to
them and being able to give isso much stronger than being able
to take Right.
So getting visibility, gettingcash so there's a low but
(32:07):
existing application amount, sothat's an easy way to get cash.
It's an easy way to get in-kindsponsorships.
There could be goodie bags,there could be locations Easy
way to get visibility becausethen you ask everybody to post
about it and we're alsoincorporating some public voting
.
So there's excuse me, judgevoting and then there's also
(32:27):
public voting.
So even more ways to ridepeople's coattails and just a
generally exciting thing to doand a generally awesome way to
establish brand in a way thatisn't just yet another
networking event.
So I have kind of canceled otherinitiatives to just lean into
this.
My co-president, my vicepresident, she has done an award
(32:51):
show before.
I have worked like really bigaward shows, which isn't useful,
but I can at least attest tothe magic of them and with that
experience.
I hope that this can sort ofcreate that momentum and
excitement so that even futurevolunteers are like I want to be
a part of that.
So I'm hoping that this biginvestment and the past years of
(33:14):
focuses will lead to somebodywanting to be president so that
I can be a follower somewhere,and also somebody feeling really
good as a president and reallyequipped.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
You know, I think the intentionality with which you
have approached that entire roleis a model, and I say that
because one of the things that Imean I've been saying this for
20 years One day, somebody elseis going to sit in the chair.
I sit in.
When that happens, it doesn'tmatter what you do, if you're a
founder, if you're a leader, amiddle manager, it doesn't
matter where you're leading,somebody else is going to sit in
(33:46):
that chair.
Do you want them to walk intothe same problems you walked
into, yeah, or do you want toleave it better?
And you've been so intentionalabout creating better and
thinking about what would youhave liked to have walked into.
I'm going to create that that'sso inspirational and such a
model for every leader who islistening.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Thank you.
Yeah, you know practice.
We talked about leadership atthe beginning and I have
reflected on that and I havepracticed since I was a kid.
I have led so many thingsinternships, volunteer groups,
student projects, marching bands, nonprofits, my own initiatives
(34:31):
, other people's initiatives ledby following.
And I think to your point, ifyou just observe and try to do
even better than what you'vebeen a part of and try to model
what you respect, you createthis result of all of your
inspirations and I'm excited tokeep getting practice and
(34:52):
hopefully keep getting better.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
That's so good.
So let me ask you, andy, how doyou stay sharp, how do you stay
on top of your game and levelup with the new skills you need
to lead, Because the leader thatyour company needs a year from
now, you're not there yet.
How are you going to keepdeveloping?
What are some things that?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
you do to do that.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
There's a lot of chatter and social media about
how we always have to stay onthe cutting edge and I used to
really buy into that.
But I really think if you'retrying at your industry, you're
keeping on the cutting edge.
I don't think that's special.
Maybe software, but at the endof the day, marketing is getting
people to do something, andalways has been.
(35:36):
It's just getting a conversionand the tools by which you do
that change, but really not thatmuch.
It only makes things easier.
I'm just obsessed with readingbiographies and listening to
things like this and throughthat, everybody says to read and
(35:56):
my mentor loves audiobooks andhelped me get past the bias
against audiobooks.
I have friends who say but Idon't absorb everything, and I
was like do you absorbeverything from a real book?
No, and so I have read over 500books from the LA Public
(36:17):
Library for free usingaudiobooks.
If you don't have the app Libby, you're missing out on so much.
And it's all the classics.
I have a lot of the businessclassics and I just bought the
HBR series.
I love those Harvard BusinessReviews, like the roundups,
(36:38):
because they I'm listening tothe 100 top HBR articles on
Libby.
But I also bought the booksbecause they're so good that I
want to highlight them.
It's not cheap.
It's like a $70 book, like fivebooks set, but I wanted that
pack.
That was really important to mePracticing elsewhere, including
(37:00):
like creative practice.
So I have creative practiceoutside of this work and I get
to be silly in the tools that Iuse every day.
I made a website for somefriends and it has like a really
sassy button and it leads to aRick Roll and that's only
something that I could do inlike a super silly context and
(37:23):
that even the award show.
Actually this is a volunteerposition, but I'm.
You know, google Sheets has atimeline function.
Please go check it out.
It's brand new and I got toimplement this timeline function
, which is so nerdy, but youknow I got to do that.
I got to do design again.
I got to think about reachingout to sponsorships.
(37:44):
And doing something outside ofyour daily expertise will
cross-pollinate into your day today and means that I'm a
competent social media manager.
Something that I absolutelydespised was when I worked with
people who really didn't knowanything about the platforms
anymore.
I'm getting that way becausewhen your job becomes management
(38:08):
and the tools move quick,that's rough but I can still get
in front of someone and onaverage, I design on Canva three
times faster than one of myteam members.
Still, part of it's frompracticing elsewhere, part of
it's because the tool is reallyold and I've been using it for a
really long time, and so Ithink that builds respect
(38:28):
through natural skill, and I dothat by having a context outside
of work where I'm not savingpeople by doing the work.
So, books, being the presidentof the social media club, I've
been attending events for 11years and I've been managing
them for three.
You naturally get in front ofpeople through that network and
(38:50):
just trying to stay freshthrough creative practice
outside of my day to day work.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
It's so easy to look at your story and what we've
heard today from you and think,wow some people maybe listen to
this or watching this and saying, oh wow, her journey has just
been up into the right, it'sjust all good.
Every year is better than theone before and everything's
great.
There's no struggles, there'sno challenges and that's
(39:17):
entrepreneurial life right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Yeah, there's no struggles, no challenges, oh no,
so no, absolutely not.
Yeah, of course not.
I think in the end, hopefullyit is I, so I stepping back.
My dad died when I was 22suddenly and it meant that I had
(39:41):
to drop everything and gomanage funerals and estate
issues and pets when I was superyoung in South Carolina, just
across the country, which isexpensive and funerals are
expensive.
Death in general is expensiveand I'm still dealing with admin
from that frickin' estate andthat was pivotal.
(40:07):
It's a really big wake up callreally early in life and you
know something that you dealwith for a long time, and so
that was part of my early careerjourney and helped me realize
that I didn't want to work inunkind places.
I life's too short and that canreally impact you long term.
(40:28):
And so I started my company,leaving CBS during Me Too, and
with a focus on being kind topeople and knowing that that was
going to be expensive and slow,and what I started with was
photography.
I find social media completelyexhausting.
It's a tabloid, it's daily workand it is unrelenting.
(40:51):
There is no stop.
It's a marriage Like it's a,and it's a marriage with daily
work, and I loved photographybecause there was a beginning
and an end and rest, and Ineeded that, and so I leaned
into that and we got huge In2020, we were lined up mostly me
, but like me, occasionallyworking with people to shoot an
(41:14):
eclipse in Patagonia, chile, amusic festival in Canada, tour
with a metal band, work withsnowboarders in Oregon and in
the Caribbean, and multiple ofevents and so I realized like,
oh, I can create sort of sideprojects through headshots, food
(41:34):
photography and productphotography and I was doing a
lot of shoots in my one bedroomapartment in LA and kicking my
husband out in order to do it,and it just wasn't sustainable.
And so I was like I need a placeto work and so I signed at
least February 1st 2020 for mythriving photography career,
(41:54):
which was the worst day to signa lease of all time.
Oh my goodness and I took my gigin the Caribbean.
I had a little bit of a hintthat I'd be okay and I ended up
flying home from that gig theday before the country shut down
and all airports shut downPeople in hazmat suits like
(42:16):
Amish people and missionariesfleeing their country of where
they were living just bananaslike experience, and my company
completely went under.
I drained my retirement just alot of things and then, in
December of 2020, I signed USC.
(42:37):
But of course, that was anawful year.
It was really awful foreverybody.
But talk about feeling likefailure and talk about feeling
like it was time to get anotherjob, and I think everybody but
I'd heard this, I'd listened toso many biographies and so many
stories and luckily had anawesome partner and awesome
(43:01):
friends and an awesome mentorand decided to stick with it and
that was what led to absolutelythriving and we went from zero
to three to five, to 15, to 20.
And I don't have fantasies ofbeing massive, I just have
(43:27):
fantasies of taking care ofpeople, and so I don't know what
the future will bring, but I amjust really happy that I gave
it the time of investment and Isort of stuck with the sunk cost
fallacy of I'm going to keeptrying and I'd heard so many
people say that and I'd heard somuch success from that and I
(43:50):
was also ready just to tellpeople I had failed and embraced
all of that and I'm reallyhappy I did and it's a great
story to tell now, but it wasreally horrible to go through.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
I think there's a whole lot of people listening
who can resonate with that.
And one of the challenges and Ithink social media plays right
into this is you're comparingyour every day to somebody
else's highlight reel, you'recomparing your chapter three to
somebody else's chapter 15.
(44:22):
We have to be so careful doingthat, particularly as leaders,
as the teams we lead.
The people who we influencefollow our lead, and if we lose
hope, if we get discouraged,they're going to follow.
So, true, thank you for sharingthat.
That was such a powerful story,and I know it's so much more
(44:43):
comfortable on this side of it.
But you know, one thing I oftensay is that there's no such
thing as a wasted experience.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
And everything that you and I have been through has
made us who we are today.
We would not be who we aretoday without those experiences
Good, bad and ugly.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Absolutely, absolutely Of course.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Is there all the books that you've read and I
love that you're such avoracious reader Is there a book
that has made a big differencein your journey, something that
you would recommend thateverybody listening put on their
TREAD list if they haven't readit?
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Gosh, yeah, it's always a hard question for me
because I'm obsessed, but theone that comes to mind today is
Give and Take by Adam Grant,that's a great book.
It's so good.
You know it's getting up there.
It might be eight years old,maybe more.
Adam Grant will be one of yourbest social media follows of all
(45:37):
time.
He's a behavioral psychologistat Wharton and just is doing
research in kindness and what.
There's a couple of things thathappens in there, but one of
the things is he dichotomizesgivers, takers, and then
actually matches.
So it's not a dichotomy andunderstanding if you're someone
(45:58):
who gives to the point of pain,if you're someone who takes,
who's maybe causing pain toothers, and if you're someone
who sees something and youexactly match and understanding
yourself and then understandingthe people that you're working
with and utilizing that.
If someone's a taker and you'rea giver, making sure that you
create boundaries there If yougive too much, which is
(46:22):
something I have tackled.
I have a church background andI have a Mexican background and
I'm a woman and there's lots ofreasons why I have been
culturally encouraged to giveeverything to the point of, you
know, losing your health, losingyour sanity, losing your money,
and so tackling that part of mewhile also keeping the fact
(46:44):
that I like that part of me hasbeen a huge part.
And the last thing I'll say isnegotiation.
This changed my life and somany of my friends' lives.
Negotiate as if you'redefending one of your friends.
If you're a giver, think aboutthe Mandy that is your friend,
because givers will defend tothe end for the people that they
(47:06):
care about and they will notdefend for themselves.
And so let's say nowadays I usethis in business, but before I
used it in salary negotiation myfriend, Mandy A, is a leader in
the workplace.
She has done so much more thanher job description.
Here's the reasons andabilities why Her industry is
(47:27):
far better paid and so shedeserves just to be to match
that industry and see like shehas a lifestyle that she needs
support, and that lifestyle isbarely affording rent in as very
expensive city and being ableto, you know, save money for the
non-retirement that hergeneration is going to have.
And she deserves it, she'sworked hard for it and she needs
(47:50):
it.
And so walk into thatnegotiation with the confidence
of defending that person thatisn't you.
It's so good.
It's so good.
And you know now that I have anentity that isn't me anymore.
I can defend that.
But defending that being takingyour given tendency and
(48:12):
actually using it for what youmight perceive as aggression,
which is really just taking careof yourself with people that
have assets that they canreallocate.
Like this is not.
You're not taking, you're nothurting anybody, You're just
getting what you need.
And in this case, now I'mdefending people again and so
I'm creating salaries and incomefor people and they deserve the
(48:36):
best, and I will defend ontheir behalf that.
I got a 50% raise after I readthat book and five zero and that
, yeah, just a game changer, andI'm still not great at it, Like
I'm still actually quiteterrible at it, but I'm much
better than I used to be and I'mmuch better at identifying that
tendency within myself and sortof tackling it earlier than I
(48:58):
used to.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
You know, one thing I've heard throughout this
conversation is how much youvalue the people who are on your
team.
I think one of the greatestprivileges of a leader is to
equip and empower their team tosucceed, and something you said
just to mend ago made me thinkof the other side of that, which
is to stand in front of themand to protect them, and that I
(49:24):
sense that in you and that'sjust a, that's just a part of
who you are, and I think that'ssuch a wonderful thing.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Thank you, anxiety medication helps, but you know,
and it's really hard.
It's so hard.
But chat, you can scriptconversations everybody.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Just don't take them and use them just like they are.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Hello, I hope you're having a great day today.
It's so helpful.
Yeah, negotiations are reallyhard, but it's it's important,
it's it's the job I have now.
It's I have to rise to thatoccasion.
I have not always a rise tothat occasion and my team
brought that up because I have acompany where people are
(50:13):
allowed to bring something likethat up and I took that
seriously and that's actuallybeen a focus of mine this year
is to defend people and to getin the way, to give people the
independence to take care ofthemselves, but then, at the end
of the day, to be the businessowner and stand by the values
that I preach.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
I love that you give your team that freedom.
I talked to my clients oftenabout what I call the last 10%
of honesty.
You know, the first 90% isreally easy for us to give to
one another, but we typicallyhold back the last 10% because
we don't want to break or damagea relationship, we don't want
to offend somebody, so we holdthat back.
The problem is, the last 10% ofhonesty is where the
(50:51):
transformation lives.
That's where the magic is, andI don't get better without that
last 10%, and neither do you,and so I've tried to create a
culture with my on my team aswell, where it's not just that I
want the last 10%, I need it, Iexpect it, and there is that
openness, there is that freedom,and that's what it sounds like
you've created as well.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Do you give it, and so something I've reflected a
lot on is what percentage oftransparency helps and what
percentage of transparency hurts.
I used to go with the approachof absolute, but I found that
that actually led to kind ofasking for emotional support
(51:32):
from my team instead of being aleader, and so you know,
absolutely I want my team to beradically candid.
I'm curious what you thinkabout that.
Do you think you give 100% ofthe information or do you curate
the information?
Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yeah, that's a different question, and when I
talk about the last 10% ofhonesty, I'm talking about a
project on performance or thingslike that, and it comes to
things that you carry, that Icarry as the point leader and I
don't have the context andoftentimes they don't have the
ability to carry that.
(52:12):
They didn't sign up to carrythat.
So if we try to place that onthem, we're actually doing them
a disservice.
That's not honoring to them toask them to carry something that
they they aren't, they didn'tsign up for, they didn't sign up
to carry that.
This is what I what I talked tomy clients about when I'm
coaching them.
So often we run into trouble asleaders when we take things home
(52:33):
and we we dump things on ourspouse.
Well, they're supportive of us,they're cheering us on, they're
cheering us on, but they didn'tsign up to lead what we lead.
You're asking them to carrysomething they're not equipped
or that they signed up to handle, and our team is the same way.
We have to learn as leaderswhat we can share and what we
(52:53):
need to share somewhere else, ina different context.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (52:58):
Yeah, I love the concept that your spouse can't
be everything.
They just can't they can't andyou have to find support systems
and figure out support, butalso things like journaling,
things like therapy, likefinding that support elsewhere.
I something I've thought aboutcreating that boundary with work
(53:19):
was something I had to learnearly and something I have been
reflecting on this year isenergy theft.
So I was ending at five, isending at six, like whenever my
partner is getting home, and Iwas exhausted.
I went straight to bed.
I didn't make dinner, it wasminimal.
We spent like completely zonedout time together I and so I had
(53:43):
finished on time, but I hadactually given all my energy to
that day because I was.
It was possible, but it waspossible because I took
everything else from the othereight hours in my day and that,
and then it was leaking intoSaturdays.
I was spending time withfriends falling asleep on their
couch and, yes, there's hustleperiods and there's rest periods
(54:05):
, but the thing I'm reflectingon now and because I have a
really great team that'sincredibly supportive and that's
a whole other aspect is notonly protecting the people from
that stress and holding it, notcreating more of it and not
welcoming more of it, but thenalso asking for so much balance
(54:26):
that I go home with energy, andthat's a whole new frontier that
I'm working on.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
I think that's fantastic.
You know it's like anythingelse, it's intentionality.
You know it's being purposefuland saying I'm going to make
sure that I'm not going toexpend everything in my wallet
before the end of the month.
I'm going to make sure I don'texpend every bit of energy that
I have before the relationshipsthat matter most, Right?
Yeah, that's so, so good.
(54:55):
This has been such a great,great conversation, Mandy.
I want to thank you for theinsights and the wisdom that
you've shared.
People typically walk away froman episode like this with one
big idea.
If you were to define that bigidea the one thing you want
everybody listening to walk awaywith what would you want that
to be?
Speaker 3 (55:14):
You can't take care of others until you take care of
yourself.
It's so cliche but it's so true.
And taking care of yourselfmight mean a lot more than what
it means to other people.
You know there's some peopletaking care of themselves as
waking up at six and doing yogaand whatever all their things.
(55:38):
It's such an LA thing to say,doing yoga, meditating, burning
your stage but sometimes itmight mean, you know, whole
weekends where you do nothing.
It might mean, you know,getting support with chores.
It might mean complete silence.
It might mean more time offthan you perceive other people
(55:59):
as having.
But getting past thatperception and really, really
actually having a full cup thatcan actually pour into other
cups takes a lot of boundariesand you won't take care of them
until you take care of you.
And I think it's a lesson thatwe all keep learning and keep
(56:22):
having to recenter, but in apost COVID world where we're
doing other things again,remembering what that balance is
and recalibrating if you haveto.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
What a great way to top on this conversation.
I know people are going to wantto stay connected with you and
continue learning from you,Mandy.
What is the best way for themto do that?
Speaker 3 (56:44):
I'm trying to do better on LinkedIn.
You can.
You'll probably find my name inthe show notes and I'm media
Mandy everywhere Zole.
We're always experimenting withour social channels.
So if you want to see how we'redoing that, we're Zole studio,
where the name comes from mixedheritage because we're a
multicultural agency.
So Zole is for, zole, it's aMexican soup, and so Le and
(57:08):
French is son, and so sort ofcombining those two elements ZOL
, a Y studio.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
We'll have those links in the show.
Speaker 3 (57:18):
Thank, you so much.
This was awesome.
Speaker 2 (57:21):
Thanks for joining me for this episode today.
As we wrap up, I'd love for youto do two things.
First, subscribe to thispodcast so you don't miss an
episode, and if you find valuehere, I'd love it if you would
rate it and review it.
That really does make adifference in helping other
people to discover this podcast.
Second, if you don't have acopy of my newest book,
(57:43):
Catalytic Leadership, I'd loveto put a copy in your hands.
If you go tocatalyticleadershipbookcom, you
can get a copy for free.
Just pay the shipping so I canget it to you and we'll get one
right out.
My goal is to put this into thehands of as many leaders as
possible.
This book captures principlesthat I've learned in 20 plus
(58:05):
years of coaching leaders in theentrepreneurial space, in
business, government, nonprofits, education and the local church
.
You can also connect with me onLinkedIn to keep up with what
I'm currently learning andthinking about.
If you're ready to take a nextstep with a coach to help you
intentionally grow and thrive asa leader, I'd be honored to
(58:27):
help you.
Just go tocatalyticleadershipnet to book a
call with me.
Stay tuned for our next episodenext week.
Until then, as always, leaderschoose to be catalytic.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Thanks for listening to Catalytic Leadership with Dr
William Attaway.
Be sure to subscribe whereveryou listen to podcasts so you
don't miss the next episode.
Want more?
Go to catalyticleadershipnet.
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