August 7, 2025 • 33 mins
If you’re scaling fast but still stuck in every decision, system, and Slack thread, this episode is for you.
I sat down with Flynn Zaiger, CEO of Online Optimism, a 13-year digital creative agency recently named one of Inc.’s Best Places to Work. Flynn started his agency six months out of college with no outside funding — and now leads a nationally distributed team that runs with clarity, ownership, and initiative.
We talk about the systems and culture shifts that made that possible — including how Flynn built layers of leadership, used internal AI tools without losing humanity, and developed onboarding systems that reduce churn and increase trust. This is a real-world, founder-level conversation about scaling agency leadership without becoming the bottleneck, losing your people, or burning out.
Whether you’re wrestling with client handoffs, team autonomy, or sustainable agency growth, Flynn’s insights will help you move from controlling everything to empowering excellence.
📚 Books Mentioned
The Power Broker by Robert Caro
Want to connect with Flynn? You can find him on LinkedIn at Flynn Zaiger, or reach out to his team at Online Optimism. And yes — they really did take away his social media passwords. You’ll hear why.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
- Free 30-Minute Discovery Call:
Ready to elevate your business? Book a free 30-minute discovery call with Dr. William Attaway and start your journey to success.
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Connect with Dr. William Attaway:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. William Attaway (00:00):
I'm excited today to have Flynn Zeiger on
the podcast.
As the CEO of Online Optimism,flynn spends his day keeping his
employees happy, his clientshappier and the office pups the
happiest.
In 2012, six months out ofcollege, flynn created Online
(00:21):
Optimism, a digital creativeagency performing much-needed
internet marketing assistance tothe many businesses of
Louisiana.
Over the years, that clientbase expanded and the team grew
far beyond, him recently beingnamed as one of Inc's best
places to work.
Flynn, I'm so glad you're here.
(00:42):
Thanks for being on the show.
Flynn Zaiger (00:43):
I'm excited to be here and share some of my
thoughts and get to talk withyou.
Intro (00:49):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Dr. William Attaway (00:56):
Here is your host author and leadership
and executive coach, dr WilliamAttaway coach, dr William
Attaway, I would love for you tostart by sharing some of your
story with our listeners,particularly around your journey
and your development as aleader.
How did you get started?
Flynn Zaiger (01:16):
Yeah, I think I got started by how most good or
eventual leaders get started,which is thinking that they're
better than they actually areand having the confidence to
lead something I think that'spretty key is to have a really
unearned confidence in yourselfif you want to be a leader in
the world, and we honestly tellthat to our interns and people
(01:39):
at entry level, which is, ifyou're waiting for a day where
you receive a document that saysyou are now a leader, that is
not coming.
You're going to have to learn ityourself, and so that's what I
did, essentially.
I had a job I didn't like and Idecided that I would try my own
thing for a while until thelittle money in my savings
(02:00):
account ran out and it hasn'trun out 13 years later, and I've
been lucky to have a great teamthat I get to build a company
with and really build a companyaround.
A lot of what I think hasturned me into a better leader
has just been listening andgetting to work with a lot of
talented folks who have becomegreat leaders themselves.
Dr. William Attaway (02:19):
I love that and I think that reflects what
I find often in great leaders,and that they're not pointing to
themselves as much as they'repointing to the people on their
teams, the people around themwho add so much value to the
business, their clients, etc.
Flynn Zaiger (02:33):
Yeah, I think you really have to show that
appreciation.
And pointing is like, I think,a metaphorical word and how you
were using it, but it's truethat you do need to call these
individuals out.
You were using it, but it'strue that you do need to call
these individuals out.
A common phrase is praisepublicly, criticize privately,
and I feel a lot of leaders,particularly nowadays, are
criticizing publicly andpraising themselves publicly as
(02:57):
well, and I think that you needto really keep that in mind and
even in stressful situations,sometimes you'll feel really
good in the moment to get toblame someone else, but that
leadership just doesn't extendbeyond that moment and it has a
long-term detrimental effect.
So you really have to pointpeople out, as you said, and
(03:18):
praise them publicly if you wantto grow leaders beyond yourself
and your organization growleaders beyond yourself and your
organization.
Dr. William Attaway (03:29):
You know, appreciation is something that I
have taken a great interest inrecently, and learning how to
speak other people's reallytheir language of appreciation.
I had a guest on the show notlong ago talking about this.
So how do you show appreciationto your team?
Flynn Zaiger (03:40):
Yeah, there are a ton of ways, and I'll start off
by saying that it is differentfor every individual.
And this is the hardest part isif you're doing appreciation
perfectly, which is impossible,but if you could magically do it
, it would mean sitting downwith every employee on day one
and talking to them about theirwants and needs, and whether
it's money or time off or theopportunity to be more involved
(04:04):
with their family or to focus ontheir career goals, and then
you would get a perfect list ofeverything they need.
You would plan out what theirmotivational treats would be and
rewards for growing a neworganization.
Then they would come back towork on day two and you would
ask them again, because thosethings change and they always
need to be customized.
Oh, that's good.
That's a challenge.
We at OnlineO Optimism we doactually give out surveys once a
(04:25):
year, so it's not every day butonce a year.
We will check in with peopleand it is a long survey.
It is almost comical howin-depth we go into favorite
candy and specific brands ofcandy.
You know people's preferenceson nuts, so if someone likes
cashews but hate almonds, wewill know that about our company
and we also learn about whatare people like?
(04:46):
Are they looking for more timeoff?
Do they really enjoy beingdistracted with work?
And how does all of that changeon an individual basis?
So that's just trying tounderstand the employee.
And then there's the actualgiving of appreciation.
We have a lot of differentlayers of appreciation.
We have literally anappreciation Slack channel.
(05:08):
We've tested out a number ofdifferent organizations over the
years because there's a lot ofSaaS companies now who do ways
to reward employees.
We've customized our own systemafter trying them all.
Basically, if you do somethingwell in our organization, we
will give you an appreciationand every quarter we tally those
up and then, depending on howmany times you appreciate others
(05:30):
, how many others appreciate you, we do a donation to a 501c3
nonprofit in your name, basedoff the amount.
So each one's worth like aquarter or so, for example, and
that's like the smallest levelof appreciation.
Beyond that we have a mostvaluable optimist or an MVO of
the week that gets recognizedinternally.
We always do make sure they getpublic praise on social media
(05:52):
as well.
I think a lot of times companiesare scared to do that.
They worry that highlightingtheir top performing salesperson
or top performing social mediaperson is just making that
person more likely to be poached, and I'm not saying that's an
incorrect assumption.
I think that that is a risk ofshowing this sort of public
(06:13):
appreciation, particularly foremployees that you really like.
But I just have faith and trustthat if we are loyal and
showcasing those employees, thatthey will remain a little loyal
.
There's no guarantee of that,but I always try to push that
fear I know other CEOs mentionoften when I talk about that to
the side and just think aboutwhat's right for the staff
member and in this case thatstaff member worked hard.
(06:34):
You should appreciate thempublicly.
I mean, those are the big ones.
We have larger things that Ithink just like are less
tangible of like CEOs giving youa financial thing or a shout
out.
We do have compensation thatcomes with some of these things
and we also like allow people tobuild a lot of their own
appreciation programs.
So, like, if our staff wants tolike form different internal
(06:56):
groups about like growing plantsor exercising or how they being
and they want to like work withothers on that, we'll give them
both the time and the financialempowerment essentially to grow
these own programs that couldbecome their own appreciation.
And that's really what I thinkis the difference between just
starting an appreciation programat your organization and
actually seeing it thriving iswhen your staff take over and
(07:20):
take the initiative to builddifferent layers of appreciation
that you didn't previouslythink about.
Dr. William Attaway (07:26):
I often say that great leaders don't just
look at their team members ascogs in a machine, but they see
them as actual 3D human beingswho have wants and needs and
dreams and desires of their own,and that when a leader
recognizes that and asks theright questions to uncover those
things and learns them likewhat you're describing, those
(07:48):
team members lean in and they'renot going to run down the
street for another few bucksbecause if they feel seen and
heard as a person, they feellike they've found their place,
their team, and that sounds likeexactly what you're describing.
Flynn Zaiger (08:03):
Yeah, that, as a person, really sticks out to me,
especially in 2025.
I'm really proud of us.
I think we've gone about eightminutes in a podcast without
saying AI, but I will ruin that.
We did a great job so far and Ithink that that's whether
you're incorporating it intoyour company or not.
It is something in the back ofall of your employees' minds.
Is that my boss is trying toreplace me with AI?
(08:23):
It is something in the back ofall of your employees' minds is
that my boss is trying toreplace me with AI.
Whether or not you are, it isenough of a public story that it
is on everyone's mind, and Ithink seeing those employees, as
you said, not seeing them as acog in a machine, but as a
person and as a human, is really, really essential to providing
a team that will last with you.
(08:43):
Because, at this point, most ofthe workforce is millennials or
Gen Z, and it's a growingnumber every single year.
Those are becoming more andmore, and generations are
notorious for not being loyal.
Right, like no one's staying 30years at a company and getting
a pension.
At this point, you're hopingfor two years before they bounce
.
At this point, you're hopingfor two years before they bounce
(09:07):
, and a lot of that is becausecompanies see people as
replaceable gears on a machine,and that sometimes makes sense
in certain roles, but for a lotof other jobs, especially like
our agency is very client-facing.
They're not cogs.
They both need to do marketingwork at our company, but they
also need to have relationshipswith people that you can't
replace with AI.
These are real humans, theyknow their names, and that both
(09:31):
makes your company strongerinternally like people build
relationships with each otherand collaborate better and want
to help each other grow, but italso makes your resulting work
better, whether you are, like us, a service industry or a
service company and you'rehelping people with just their
time and smarts, or even if,like you're a chef.
(09:51):
Like people are going to workbetter when they actually like
each other.
I really strongly believe that,and the only way to get people
to see each other as humans isto is to lead with that strategy
and show that you, as a leader,are seeing your staff as humans
even more than workers, I wouldsay.
Dr. William Attaway (10:10):
That's so good.
Let's talk about onlineoptimism for a minute.
You started this in 2012.
So, wow, that's a run for anybusiness, particularly in the
digital marketing space.
You've seen a few changes overthe last 13 plus years, I would
imagine.
Flynn Zaiger (10:27):
Just a couple.
Dr. William Attaway (10:29):
Just a couple right.
What is your focus as an agency?
Who do you want to help, why doyou want to help them and where
do you want to go from?
Flynn Zaiger (10:38):
here, yeah, and I think the key here is that it's
changed over time.
I'm very proud that we've madeit 13 years.
I always tell people thecurrent year is the hardest is
that it's changed over time.
I'm very proud that we've madeit 13 years.
I always tell people thecurrent year is the hardest, so
that would be the 13th year isthe hardest, but that's not true
.
It's the first year.
I really the first year ofrunning a business is wild, and
(10:59):
I think anyone who makes itthrough the first year
especially if you're not VCfunded or anything, if you were
just bootstrapped like we were,and you start day one with a
runway, like I very much startedday one of the company with
this is how much money I have inmy savings account.
This is my rent.
Here's where that line hits theother line and we get to zero,
and that's something that Ithink makes that first year such
(11:21):
a challenge.
But beyond that, it's tough totry to make your business
survive and be nimble.
I think we got into it.
I really love helping smallbusinesses.
Those are mostly mom and popshops.
We started in New Orleans, whichis where I was living and
that's where we grew.
The first eight years we wereall in-house before we went um
(11:43):
hybrid.
In 2021 we're still.
We still have 4200 square feetin new orleans, but we now have
about half our staff there, halfour staff around the country,
so we've had to navigate bothchanging services.
Uh, when we started, we werepretty much a purely facebook
shop, like the first year or two, and now facebook's maybe like
three, four percent of thebusiness.
(12:04):
It's obviously on the socialside side.
It's a lot more Reddit,linkedin, tiktok, and then we
have a whole video team.
We have a bunch of designersand developers, which is great,
because I was doing the designat the beginning and I can tell
you that I am terrible at design.
I notoriously will frequentlyget kicked out of our own
graphic design conversations orsocial media channels.
(12:25):
They'll change the passwords onme so that I can't go in and
make my own collages, which Ithink look great, and it's a
challenge but I think to be agood leader, you really have to
thrive on change, right?
There's nothing that's static,and that's another thing that we
really teach our staff is thatyou can't.
There's no business that isstable, honestly, like there's
(12:48):
nothing that exists in a vacuumand could just keep doing what
it's doing because competitorscome, they go, industries change
, laws, change, needs change,and so you can never feel like
things are good and they'regonna stay that way.
I realize that's a bit of apessimistic way to look at it
(13:10):
but I really think that's key tounderstand as you're thinking
about your leadership is thatyou might get to a point where
you can offload some of thatnervousness about shifts onto
other key team members.
That's really crucial andtrusting them to be able to make
those choices.
But someone at yourorganization needs to be
empowered to shift services,shift team members, shift
(13:30):
strategies at all times.
There's no such thing as astatic company, particularly
nowadays.
Dr. William Attaway (13:37):
So true, that's so true.
The ability to pivot and adapt,I think, illustrated most
recently in the COVID pandemic,years when everybody was having
to shift, everybody was havingto adapt.
But and you brought it up, Ididn't but the rise of AI is
causing a similar type ofmethodology, like how are we
(13:58):
going to adjust to this, how arewe going to adapt?
How are we going to leveragethis while not making what we do
less human?
And I love how you phrased that.
Flynn Zaiger (14:07):
And I think what both of those have shown is that
this sort of ability to changeand adapt doesn't have to be
lightning fast.
I think people are so nervousabout it because they feel, oh
my God, I'm a leader, my teamneeds a decision today.
How do I do that?
And the truth is that you don't.
I mean COVID.
People are still makingdecisions about workplaces three
(14:27):
, four years later.
I think at this point it'smostly said, but, like Chase and
other companies are makingchanges in 2024, 2025.
They had four years.
They could have made thatchange April 1st 2020.
They'd been working from homefor three weeks.
The company was still running.
They could have decided, yep,we are 100% remote.
And they didn't.
They wavered back and forth onthat decision for four or five
(14:49):
years until coming back to that.
They want to be, I think,mostly back in the office at
this point.
People would come back into ouroffice in 2020.
(15:10):
And it was based off like workschedules and whether you had
client meetings and who was onyour department.
There was like fourspreadsheets.
It was beautiful.
I was super proud of myself andthen, about three days, in, my
team sat me down and said we'renot doing this and I adapted, I
changed from that, and I thinkthat's a nice For anyone who's
(15:30):
worried about leadership andworried about the ability to be
nimble and navigate thesechanges.
They are long-term changes and Ithink even, as you were saying,
ai is another great example ofhow.
It could be terrifying how fastthese changes are right, like
if you don't check the internetfor five days, there's some new
wild video or graphic orautomation tool based off ai
(15:55):
that, like blows people's mindsand goes viral.
But the truth is, if you lookat how these items have been
rolled out to organizations,it's so much slower.
We're a couple years into.
The big ones, like ChatGPT, ofcourse, that's been out, and
even today, very feworganizations have really good
guidelines on both how it'simplemented at the company, how
(16:17):
employees are trained on it, howthey look for new tools that
are available, how those toolsget distributed among the
organization, how trainingcontinues to be provided.
Like, how do you upskill peoplein a lot of these tools,
especially since every day, notonly are there new tools, but
all these older tools aregetting features.
So we're mostly a cloud agency.
It's an Anthropics tool and wehave to adapt our rules for how
(16:42):
we use it based off of the data.
In the last month they startedintegrating with Canva, asana
Notion, our new, all of ourother platforms.
So we've had to go back andthink about how is this tool
integrated into our organization.
So I think the bigger decisionsam I going to use AI or not
those are helpful to makequickly, but the actual
decisions of how do I implementand use this to grow my
(17:03):
organization as a leader, thoseyou do have a lot more time to
decide on.
It might feel like you'refalling behind, but if you're at
least willing to think aboutthese changes and you are taking
the time for your organizationto say, hey, we are going to
change, let's carefully decidehow we do this and build it in a
way that's scalable anddocumented so that future people
can look at our decision makingand learn from it.
(17:24):
Like those decisions could takeweeks or months and you could
do them collaboratively withyour team and you'll have much
better results when you do.
And then, when you look back onit, you're like this that
actually wasn't too fast.
It might look nimble from anoutside perspective, but
internally you had a lot ofdebates and conversations and
this was a real methodicaldecision that you were able to
make.
Dr. William Attaway (17:42):
You know, as I listen to you talk about
this and your interactions withyour team, it sounds like you
have a phenomenal relationshipwith them, where you're sharing
what I call the last 10% ofhonesty with each other, where
you're not holding back butyou're sharing all of it in the
goal, with the goal in mind ofhelping the clients more, of
(18:02):
serving them at a higher leveland of seeing the business
thrive.
Is that accurate?
Flynn Zaiger (18:08):
Yeah, I think it comes from who we hire, and I
certainly don't make always thegreatest hiring decisions, but
one thing that I've alwaysreally strove for is hiring
people that are better than you.
I think that that's key toespecially.
A mistake that I see a lot ofyounger leaders make is you feel
(18:31):
like, as a leader, you need tobe able to manage and teach
everyone something, to be ableto understand their work and be
able to kind of showcase thatthere's a reason you're a leader
, especially if you're everhiring people that are older
than you, which I did oftenbecause I was starting a company
at 22.
So most people that you try tohire are older than you, and
that's definitely a mistake.
(18:52):
You'd want to hire people thatslightly intimidate you, and I
think that that is the key tosuccess, because you want them
to be able to build a companybeyond what you were able to
build and you want them to havetheir own area of expertise, and
part of looking for that skillset also tends to hire people
who are willing to talk back toyou couple of days that they are
(19:16):
there.
You need to emphasize thatyou're here.
You want feedback,no-transcript like hundreds of
pages of documentation and stepsand tasks.
This will look like a veryorganized process because we've
(19:38):
built it over the last 10 years.
It is, but you should keep youreye out for ways we could do it
better.
In five days, you're going toget a survey that says how could
we have done this better, andwe would love your ideas.
We'd love your feedback on that, because this is an
ever-changing process and sothat is a good way, from day one
, to establish that they shouldbe telling you ways to improve.
(19:59):
They should be offeringcritiques and feedback, and it's
super important.
I think the most importantthing is not only that you are
asking for it and you'reinviting it, but that you
respond the first couple timesthat they offer feedback.
If they offer that survey, theysay, hey, you should actually
start onboarding at 7am insteadof 8am.
You don't have to do that.
(20:20):
I don't want to say like,blindly accept choices from new
employees, but you have torespond to that.
You have to say that's a greatidea.
This is why we do it.
This is why we're not going todo it Like we're going to
implement that in a few months.
But that's good, offering justacceptance and acknowledgement
of their ideas at the beginning,because their first ideas are
not going to be like a $10million idea that changes the
(20:42):
organization.
They're going to test thewaters too, because this is a
new role for them, a new company, and they want to see how well
their ideas are going to beaccepted.
If you accept those and whetheryou incorporate that or not, at
least indicate that you'velistened and thought carefully
about it, they will push back onyou and more important
decisions and in more importantways, um, and that's that's how
(21:04):
you can make your company somuch better, because you can be
the most brilliant person in theworld, but you don't have time
to like do everything in thecompany, especially as you grow,
and having other people willingto take risks and not feel like
they're going to be let down ifit goes wrong, and be able to
explain their choices and beable to have that trust that you
(21:24):
will back them up will makethem a better employee and then
will make their employees betteremployees.
So you'll grow multiple layersof leadership, which is really,
I think, the goal of a companyis to build that next generation
for yourself, because you know,eventually we're all aging.
Unfortunately, no one solvedthat in the company yet, and so
you'll need to have that nextgeneration of leadership if you
(21:46):
want to continue.
Dr. William Attaway (21:46):
You know, everything that you're
describing requires humility onthe part of the leader and
really the leaders of anything.
Yeah, is that something thatyou model and have always
modeled, or is it something thatyou've learned over time?
Flynn Zaiger (22:02):
Yeah, I find a key to success is lack of
confidence and imposter syndrome.
In certain ways, I know Istarted off this conversation by
saying have too much confidence.
You really want to dial thatway back at certain times.
I think it's a mix of both.
I feel think it's a mix of bothand it's not like a.
I feel that there's a lot ofbooks that that's the quickest
(22:22):
way to a self-help book is youcome up with one idea and you're
like if you follow that rule100% of the time, you will run a
much better business, You'll bemuch happier, You'll be a
better partner, a better familymember, and I think the actual
key to success is taking allthese ideas and concepts from
mentors and podcasts you listento and books and your colleagues
(22:42):
, and figuring out the rightways to apply them.
I think humility and empathy isjust something that was taught
to me as a kid.
My parents and I guess this isthe other element of why I
started my business is they hada.
My parents have a retail store.
They've sold.
They've sold many things.
They've also pivoted.
They used to sell a lot ofschool uniforms when I was a kid
(23:05):
.
Now they sell men's formal wear.
We've sold a retail store.
Then we were put on.
They were on eBay and thenAmazon, Yahoo web stores.
We were one of the firstthird-party clothing sellers on
Amazon.
Oh, wow, Back when you wouldtell people you were selling a
shirt on Amazon and they werelike the book place, it was a
long time ago.
I remember, and now it's kind ofgone full circle actually, and
(23:29):
they're more of a retail storethan online, just because very
cheap fast fashion has kind ofknocked out a lot of apparel.
We'll do that as a separatepodcast, just the world of
e-commerce, but I think thepoint there is.
I saw how my customersinteracted, or my parents
interacted with customers intheir store and how they
listened to their stories andhow they like offer military
(23:50):
discounts.
They would, you know peoplewere trying to get something for
a prom.
They would give them multipleties if they weren't sure what
their date's dress looked like,so that they'd have one that
perfectly matched Like littlethings that go far beyond how
most retail stores treatcustomers and that's really how.
(24:10):
When I started the companythat's in my mindset was like
that's how I will treat myclients is give them that sort
of empathy and willingness to beexceptionally helpful and go
above and beyond.
And what I've learned is thatit's more important to not have
that empathy for your.
It's important to have yourempathy for the clients, but
it's more important to have thatempathy for your employees
(24:32):
employees and to see them aspeople, to see them as humans
and to help them grow ratherthan seeing them as cogs, as you
said.
You really need to understandthat they're people.
They have unique motivationsand dreams and hopes and fears,
and work individually with themto help them build that career,
however they want to do it.
Dr. William Attaway (24:53):
So good, but talk about your habits, your
rhythms.
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
Your business, your team, yourclients they all need you to
lead at a higher level todaythan they did five years ago,
and the same thing is going tobe true five years from now.
How do you level up with thenew leadership skills that
they're going to need you tohave in the days ahead?
Flynn Zaiger (25:16):
Yeah, I think it goes back to empathy and
trusting your team members.
One of the things that I amvery appreciative of is that my
team is often looking for waysto help me be more efficient by
taking me out of the loop.
They could just not want totalk to me.
That's one option, but I'mgoing to look at it as they want
to free up my time, becausethey know that any minute that I
(25:38):
get that I'm not working in thebusiness, working on client
work, is a minute that I get tospend growing the business,
thinking of new ideas, and I'veshowcased that to them over time
.
I think they've seen how I'vebeen able to pivot and adapt and
add new service lines andlisten to what they want to do
and help them grow.
And so, because of that,they're often stepping in and
(25:59):
being like, hey, Flynn doesn'tneed to work on this, he should
be working on something else.
And that doesn't come from mebeing like I'm a CEO, I don't
have time to do this.
I am often sometimes steppingin and taking care of some of
the grunt work, but that meansthat when I do that I kind of
buy myself some favors.
Why I don't do that in thefuture.
But the organizational thing,like we have some standard
(26:20):
systems, a project manager andwe use Asana and teamwork like
the software platforms.
But I think the key that wefound is is being able to
delegate and then being able tomake sure that other members of
the team are as empowered as youare to make decisions, to add
policies, Like a lot of ourcultural stuff.
(26:41):
I think when you go online onour website, our cultural stuff
is a lot of what most people see.
Most of those ideas honestlyweren't about me.
I wish I could say that I builtan amazing company because I
had really good ideas.
I did not, and most of thoseideas are coming from employees
saying your idea sucked, Flynn.
I built a better one, Can we dothis?
And I wish they said can we dothis?
But they mostly just say I'mdoing this and I go wonderful,
(27:04):
great, here's a ramp card.
That's our financial system.
Please take the money andfigure it out.
And that's where a lot of theworkflows and policies and
processes to staying organizedhave come from.
Is empowering other people toinvest in new software tools and
processes that they build, theyroll out.
Then it comes back to me and Ijust have to follow their
(27:26):
well-written instructions.
Dr. William Attaway (27:28):
Nice, as you have been in this posture of
learning for 13 plus years andcontinue to, is there a book
that has made a big differencein your journey that you'd
recommend to the leaders who arelistening?
Flynn Zaiger (27:42):
Yeah, I like reading books that are warnings.
I'm reading the Power Broker,which is about Robert Moses
which is not a great.
I don't know if he's awonderful person or not.
It's mostly about, like, howpower corrupts, but I think it
is.
It is helpful to understandinto.
Uh, I learn really well fromwarnings and kind of
(28:05):
understanding what to do andwhat not to do.
I think that was really key iswhen I started this company I
was very early in my career.
I'd had a lot of internships,wanted a job.
I had some wonderful bosses,some not wonderful bosses, and I
really think I would love tosay that I learned more from
emulating my wonderful bosses,but I think I learned more from
(28:27):
seeing how bad bosses not onlymade you feel bad but made the
work worse.
So good made you feel bad butmade the work worse, and that's
really.
It's not a very optimisticthing, but I think that it is
key to think about a lot is thatsometimes you can learn better
by thinking what do I not wantto do in this situation and
(28:49):
acting the opposite.
Anyway, robert Moses built alot of things, wasn't the
greatest, most empathetic human.
So I think it's a lot ofleadership lessons and how not
to be that kind of leader whichI'm gaining, but it's been
interesting and something that Itry to do at the end of the day
try to read a couple of pagesor so.
Dr. William Attaway (29:08):
Well, I think you can learn a lot that
way.
I believe you can learn fromanybody.
If you have a teachable spirit,you can learn from anybody.
Sometimes you learn what not todo, and that can be insanely
valuable, and that's what I'mhearing, and I love that you
mentioned that.
Flynn Zaiger (29:22):
Hopefully you're not learning that from me today.
Dr. William Attaway (29:30):
You know people look at your agency and
they're like, oh my goodness,man Flynn's just up and to the
right, he's never struggled,he's never had problems, he's
never had issues.
And we know that's not true.
If I could snap my fingersright now and solve one problem
in your business, in your agency, what would you want that
(29:52):
problem to be?
Flynn Zaiger (29:54):
Yeah, I think the one thing that I've struggled
with for 13 years and I still tothis day every time we do it, I
make a change to the process,which kills my team, because
they would love something theycould follow and I'm like we
could do this better.
We could do this better.
That's client onboarding for us, which is a pretty crucial step
, but I think this is a lot ofservice organizations would know
.
This is when you meet someone.
(30:17):
This is a lot of serviceorganizations would know.
This is when you meet someone,your sales team talks to them,
gets all their needs wants,sells them something, and then
that needs to now be done by anentirely other team.
Um, and that is such a commonthing.
That's an issue, and I thinkthat is where a lot of
organizations, if you do thatwrong, like you immediately get
the contract, like there's noway to recover, and the big
(30:38):
challenge here is that when westart talking to someone, we say
how soon do you want to start?
And they're almost always likeyesterday I want to start, and
we're like great, it will takeus way longer to be ready,
because we can't do an Instagrampost, because we'll get a
comment on it immediately and weneed to know how to respond to
that, and that takes time.
You have to build brandstandards, and so the real
challenge is how fast can youonboard a client and get your
(31:01):
team ready to work and build allthe foundational stuff, um, and
while making sure that you'renot making any mistakes and we
have wavered anywhere, I think,in the past decade or so from
two days to five weeks.
We have tried everything, and Iwill apologize if you're an
online autism client listeningto this and you're somewhere in
that range.
You're like, ah, I wish I wason the two-day side.
(31:23):
We've made it a lot better andit is something that, like, I
want to do it as fast aspossible, as efficiently as
possible, but it's somethingthat you just need to build that
trust and see your clients ashumans, and that takes time.
That's not something that youhave one 30-minute meeting and
you're ready to speak as them.
It takes a lot of back andforth and a lot of questions and
(31:44):
trust building.
So, similar to how I try tobuild it with my employees, my
employees then have to build itwith clients, and that is
something that I would love tosnap a finger and have people do
it, someone could inventtelepathy.
I think that would help mereally nicely, just really a way
for us to read each other'sminds.
That would solve my one businessproblem.
I think that's probably thebest use case.
If you invent, mind reading isto help us onboard clients
(32:07):
better.
That's what I would do.
Dr. William Attaway (32:09):
Well, hopefully somebody listening to
the show is going to reach outto you and say I've got the
thing.
Flynn Zaiger (32:15):
Please do Make it also like $5 a month per
employee.
That would be super helpful.
Dr. William Attaway (32:19):
Exactly right.
Flynn Zaiger (32:20):
Not much for mind reading.
Dr. William Attaway (32:26):
I love it.
Flynn, this has just been amasterclass in servant
leadership and leading withhumility, seeing your people as
the most valuable resource youhave and treating them in a way
that is going to honor them, andI love that.
I think that is such aphenomenal leadership principle
that I don't see nearly as oftenas I wish I did, so thank you
for sharing so generously and soopenly today.
Flynn Zaiger (32:48):
Thank you.
This whole conversation was ablast.
I learned a lot and Iappreciate your questions and
really just being able to chatabout this.
Hopefully it helps other peoplebe leaders too.
Dr. William Attaway (32:59):
I know it will and I know they're going to
want to stay connected to youand continue to learn more from
you and about what you're doing.
What's the best way for them todo?
Flynn Zaiger (33:07):
that you can reach out to me on LinkedIn Flynn,
Zager, F-L-Y-N-N-Z-A-I-G-E-R.
Neither of those names is easyto spell or if you reach out to
our company on online optimism.
Again, they took away my socialmedia privileges, so that will
eventually get to me.
Someone else will see.
So feel free to comment onanything we are doing.
The only time I'm ever on oursocial media is if my social
(33:29):
media team has figured out a wayto embarrass me and they asked
me to film a video and then Ifind out a couple weeks later
what that was for so, but feelfree to comment on that or just
reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Dr. William Attaway (33:42):
I'm always happy to chat with anyone.
Perfect, we'll have those linksin the show notes, flynn, thank
you.
Flynn Zaiger (33:45):
Thank you, it was a great time.
I'm excited today to have Flynn Zeiger on
the podcast.
As the CEO of Online Optimism,flynn spends his day keeping his
employees happy, his clientshappier and the office pups the
happiest.
In 2012, six months out ofcollege, flynn created Online
(00:21):
Optimism, a digital creativeagency performing much-needed
internet marketing assistance tothe many businesses of
Louisiana.
Over the years, that clientbase expanded and the team grew
far beyond, him recently beingnamed as one of Inc's best
places to work.
Flynn, I'm so glad you're here.
(00:42):
Thanks for being on the show.
Flynn Zaiger (00:43):
I'm excited to be here and share some of my
thoughts and get to talk withyou.
Intro (00:49):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Dr. William Attaway (00:56):
Here is your host author and leadership
and executive coach, dr WilliamAttaway coach, dr William
Attaway, I would love for you tostart by sharing some of your
story with our listeners,particularly around your journey
and your development as aleader.
How did you get started?
Flynn Zaiger (01:16):
Yeah, I think I got started by how most good or
eventual leaders get started,which is thinking that they're
better than they actually areand having the confidence to
lead something I think that'spretty key is to have a really
unearned confidence in yourselfif you want to be a leader in
the world, and we honestly tellthat to our interns and people
(01:39):
at entry level, which is, ifyou're waiting for a day where
you receive a document that saysyou are now a leader, that is
not coming.
You're going to have to learn ityourself, and so that's what I
did, essentially.
I had a job I didn't like and Idecided that I would try my own
thing for a while until thelittle money in my savings
(02:00):
account ran out and it hasn'trun out 13 years later, and I've
been lucky to have a great teamthat I get to build a company
with and really build a companyaround.
A lot of what I think hasturned me into a better leader
has just been listening andgetting to work with a lot of
talented folks who have becomegreat leaders themselves.
Dr. William Attaway (02:19):
I love that and I think that reflects what
I find often in great leaders,and that they're not pointing to
themselves as much as they'repointing to the people on their
teams, the people around themwho add so much value to the
business, their clients, etc.
Flynn Zaiger (02:33):
Yeah, I think you really have to show that
appreciation.
And pointing is like, I think,a metaphorical word and how you
were using it, but it's truethat you do need to call these
individuals out.
You were using it, but it'strue that you do need to call
these individuals out.
A common phrase is praisepublicly, criticize privately,
and I feel a lot of leaders,particularly nowadays, are
criticizing publicly andpraising themselves publicly as
(02:57):
well, and I think that you needto really keep that in mind and
even in stressful situations,sometimes you'll feel really
good in the moment to get toblame someone else, but that
leadership just doesn't extendbeyond that moment and it has a
long-term detrimental effect.
So you really have to pointpeople out, as you said, and
(03:18):
praise them publicly if you wantto grow leaders beyond yourself
and your organization growleaders beyond yourself and your
organization.
Dr. William Attaway (03:29):
You know, appreciation is something that I
have taken a great interest inrecently, and learning how to
speak other people's reallytheir language of appreciation.
I had a guest on the show notlong ago talking about this.
So how do you show appreciationto your team?
Flynn Zaiger (03:40):
Yeah, there are a ton of ways, and I'll start off
by saying that it is differentfor every individual.
And this is the hardest part isif you're doing appreciation
perfectly, which is impossible,but if you could magically do it
, it would mean sitting downwith every employee on day one
and talking to them about theirwants and needs, and whether
it's money or time off or theopportunity to be more involved
(04:04):
with their family or to focus ontheir career goals, and then
you would get a perfect list ofeverything they need.
You would plan out what theirmotivational treats would be and
rewards for growing a neworganization.
Then they would come back towork on day two and you would
ask them again, because thosethings change and they always
need to be customized.
Oh, that's good.
That's a challenge.
We at OnlineO Optimism we doactually give out surveys once a
(04:25):
year, so it's not every day butonce a year.
We will check in with peopleand it is a long survey.
It is almost comical howin-depth we go into favorite
candy and specific brands ofcandy.
You know people's preferenceson nuts, so if someone likes
cashews but hate almonds, wewill know that about our company
and we also learn about whatare people like?
(04:46):
Are they looking for more timeoff?
Do they really enjoy beingdistracted with work?
And how does all of that changeon an individual basis?
So that's just trying tounderstand the employee.
And then there's the actualgiving of appreciation.
We have a lot of differentlayers of appreciation.
We have literally anappreciation Slack channel.
(05:08):
We've tested out a number ofdifferent organizations over the
years because there's a lot ofSaaS companies now who do ways
to reward employees.
We've customized our own systemafter trying them all.
Basically, if you do somethingwell in our organization, we
will give you an appreciationand every quarter we tally those
up and then, depending on howmany times you appreciate others
(05:30):
, how many others appreciate you, we do a donation to a 501c3
nonprofit in your name, basedoff the amount.
So each one's worth like aquarter or so, for example, and
that's like the smallest levelof appreciation.
Beyond that we have a mostvaluable optimist or an MVO of
the week that gets recognizedinternally.
We always do make sure they getpublic praise on social media
(05:52):
as well.
I think a lot of times companiesare scared to do that.
They worry that highlightingtheir top performing salesperson
or top performing social mediaperson is just making that
person more likely to be poached, and I'm not saying that's an
incorrect assumption.
I think that that is a risk ofshowing this sort of public
(06:13):
appreciation, particularly foremployees that you really like.
But I just have faith and trustthat if we are loyal and
showcasing those employees, thatthey will remain a little loyal
.
There's no guarantee of that,but I always try to push that
fear I know other CEOs mentionoften when I talk about that to
the side and just think aboutwhat's right for the staff
member and in this case thatstaff member worked hard.
(06:34):
You should appreciate thempublicly.
I mean, those are the big ones.
We have larger things that Ithink just like are less
tangible of like CEOs giving youa financial thing or a shout
out.
We do have compensation thatcomes with some of these things
and we also like allow people tobuild a lot of their own
appreciation programs.
So, like, if our staff wants tolike form different internal
(06:56):
groups about like growing plantsor exercising or how they being
and they want to like work withothers on that, we'll give them
both the time and the financialempowerment essentially to grow
these own programs that couldbecome their own appreciation.
And that's really what I thinkis the difference between just
starting an appreciation programat your organization and
actually seeing it thriving iswhen your staff take over and
(07:20):
take the initiative to builddifferent layers of appreciation
that you didn't previouslythink about.
Dr. William Attaway (07:26):
I often say that great leaders don't just
look at their team members ascogs in a machine, but they see
them as actual 3D human beingswho have wants and needs and
dreams and desires of their own,and that when a leader
recognizes that and asks theright questions to uncover those
things and learns them likewhat you're describing, those
(07:48):
team members lean in and they'renot going to run down the
street for another few bucksbecause if they feel seen and
heard as a person, they feellike they've found their place,
their team, and that sounds likeexactly what you're describing.
Flynn Zaiger (08:03):
Yeah, that, as a person, really sticks out to me,
especially in 2025.
I'm really proud of us.
I think we've gone about eightminutes in a podcast without
saying AI, but I will ruin that.
We did a great job so far and Ithink that that's whether
you're incorporating it intoyour company or not.
It is something in the back ofall of your employees' minds.
Is that my boss is trying toreplace me with AI?
(08:23):
It is something in the back ofall of your employees' minds is
that my boss is trying toreplace me with AI.
Whether or not you are, it isenough of a public story that it
is on everyone's mind, and Ithink seeing those employees, as
you said, not seeing them as acog in a machine, but as a
person and as a human, is really, really essential to providing
a team that will last with you.
(08:43):
Because, at this point, most ofthe workforce is millennials or
Gen Z, and it's a growingnumber every single year.
Those are becoming more andmore, and generations are
notorious for not being loyal.
Right, like no one's staying 30years at a company and getting
a pension.
At this point, you're hopingfor two years before they bounce
.
At this point, you're hopingfor two years before they bounce
(09:07):
, and a lot of that is becausecompanies see people as
replaceable gears on a machine,and that sometimes makes sense
in certain roles, but for a lotof other jobs, especially like
our agency is very client-facing.
They're not cogs.
They both need to do marketingwork at our company, but they
also need to have relationshipswith people that you can't
replace with AI.
These are real humans, theyknow their names, and that both
(09:31):
makes your company strongerinternally like people build
relationships with each otherand collaborate better and want
to help each other grow, but italso makes your resulting work
better, whether you are, like us, a service industry or a
service company and you'rehelping people with just their
time and smarts, or even if,like you're a chef.
(09:51):
Like people are going to workbetter when they actually like
each other.
I really strongly believe that,and the only way to get people
to see each other as humans isto is to lead with that strategy
and show that you, as a leader,are seeing your staff as humans
even more than workers, I wouldsay.
Dr. William Attaway (10:10):
That's so good.
Let's talk about onlineoptimism for a minute.
You started this in 2012.
So, wow, that's a run for anybusiness, particularly in the
digital marketing space.
You've seen a few changes overthe last 13 plus years, I would
imagine.
Flynn Zaiger (10:27):
Just a couple.
Dr. William Attaway (10:29):
Just a couple right.
What is your focus as an agency?
Who do you want to help, why doyou want to help them and where
do you want to go from?
Flynn Zaiger (10:38):
here, yeah, and I think the key here is that it's
changed over time.
I'm very proud that we've madeit 13 years.
I always tell people thecurrent year is the hardest is
that it's changed over time.
I'm very proud that we've madeit 13 years.
I always tell people thecurrent year is the hardest, so
that would be the 13th year isthe hardest, but that's not true
.
It's the first year.
I really the first year ofrunning a business is wild, and
(10:59):
I think anyone who makes itthrough the first year
especially if you're not VCfunded or anything, if you were
just bootstrapped like we were,and you start day one with a
runway, like I very much startedday one of the company with
this is how much money I have inmy savings account.
This is my rent.
Here's where that line hits theother line and we get to zero,
and that's something that Ithink makes that first year such
(11:21):
a challenge.
But beyond that, it's tough totry to make your business
survive and be nimble.
I think we got into it.
I really love helping smallbusinesses.
Those are mostly mom and popshops.
We started in New Orleans, whichis where I was living and
that's where we grew.
The first eight years we wereall in-house before we went um
(11:43):
hybrid.
In 2021 we're still.
We still have 4200 square feetin new orleans, but we now have
about half our staff there, halfour staff around the country,
so we've had to navigate bothchanging services.
Uh, when we started, we werepretty much a purely facebook
shop, like the first year or two, and now facebook's maybe like
three, four percent of thebusiness.
(12:04):
It's obviously on the socialside side.
It's a lot more Reddit,linkedin, tiktok, and then we
have a whole video team.
We have a bunch of designersand developers, which is great,
because I was doing the designat the beginning and I can tell
you that I am terrible at design.
I notoriously will frequentlyget kicked out of our own
graphic design conversations orsocial media channels.
(12:25):
They'll change the passwords onme so that I can't go in and
make my own collages, which Ithink look great, and it's a
challenge but I think to be agood leader, you really have to
thrive on change, right?
There's nothing that's static,and that's another thing that we
really teach our staff is thatyou can't.
There's no business that isstable, honestly, like there's
(12:48):
nothing that exists in a vacuumand could just keep doing what
it's doing because competitorscome, they go, industries change
, laws, change, needs change,and so you can never feel like
things are good and they'regonna stay that way.
I realize that's a bit of apessimistic way to look at it
(13:10):
but I really think that's key tounderstand as you're thinking
about your leadership is thatyou might get to a point where
you can offload some of thatnervousness about shifts onto
other key team members.
That's really crucial andtrusting them to be able to make
those choices.
But someone at yourorganization needs to be
empowered to shift services,shift team members, shift
(13:30):
strategies at all times.
There's no such thing as astatic company, particularly
nowadays.
Dr. William Attaway (13:37):
So true, that's so true.
The ability to pivot and adapt,I think, illustrated most
recently in the COVID pandemic,years when everybody was having
to shift, everybody was havingto adapt.
But and you brought it up, Ididn't but the rise of AI is
causing a similar type ofmethodology, like how are we
(13:58):
going to adjust to this, how arewe going to adapt?
How are we going to leveragethis while not making what we do
less human?
And I love how you phrased that.
Flynn Zaiger (14:07):
And I think what both of those have shown is that
this sort of ability to changeand adapt doesn't have to be
lightning fast.
I think people are so nervousabout it because they feel, oh
my God, I'm a leader, my teamneeds a decision today.
How do I do that?
And the truth is that you don't.
I mean COVID.
People are still makingdecisions about workplaces three
(14:27):
, four years later.
I think at this point it'smostly said, but, like Chase and
other companies are makingchanges in 2024, 2025.
They had four years.
They could have made thatchange April 1st 2020.
They'd been working from homefor three weeks.
The company was still running.
They could have decided, yep,we are 100% remote.
And they didn't.
They wavered back and forth onthat decision for four or five
(14:49):
years until coming back to that.
They want to be, I think,mostly back in the office at
this point.
People would come back into ouroffice in 2020.
(15:10):
And it was based off like workschedules and whether you had
client meetings and who was onyour department.
There was like fourspreadsheets.
It was beautiful.
I was super proud of myself andthen, about three days, in, my
team sat me down and said we'renot doing this and I adapted, I
changed from that, and I thinkthat's a nice For anyone who's
(15:30):
worried about leadership andworried about the ability to be
nimble and navigate thesechanges.
They are long-term changes and Ithink even, as you were saying,
ai is another great example ofhow.
It could be terrifying how fastthese changes are right, like
if you don't check the internetfor five days, there's some new
wild video or graphic orautomation tool based off ai
(15:55):
that, like blows people's mindsand goes viral.
But the truth is, if you lookat how these items have been
rolled out to organizations,it's so much slower.
We're a couple years into.
The big ones, like ChatGPT, ofcourse, that's been out, and
even today, very feworganizations have really good
guidelines on both how it'simplemented at the company, how
(16:17):
employees are trained on it, howthey look for new tools that
are available, how those toolsget distributed among the
organization, how trainingcontinues to be provided.
Like, how do you upskill peoplein a lot of these tools,
especially since every day, notonly are there new tools, but
all these older tools aregetting features.
So we're mostly a cloud agency.
It's an Anthropics tool and wehave to adapt our rules for how
(16:42):
we use it based off of the data.
In the last month they startedintegrating with Canva, asana
Notion, our new, all of ourother platforms.
So we've had to go back andthink about how is this tool
integrated into our organization.
So I think the bigger decisionsam I going to use AI or not
those are helpful to makequickly, but the actual
decisions of how do I implementand use this to grow my
(17:03):
organization as a leader, thoseyou do have a lot more time to
decide on.
It might feel like you'refalling behind, but if you're at
least willing to think aboutthese changes and you are taking
the time for your organizationto say, hey, we are going to
change, let's carefully decidehow we do this and build it in a
way that's scalable anddocumented so that future people
can look at our decision makingand learn from it.
(17:24):
Like those decisions could takeweeks or months and you could
do them collaboratively withyour team and you'll have much
better results when you do.
And then, when you look back onit, you're like this that
actually wasn't too fast.
It might look nimble from anoutside perspective, but
internally you had a lot ofdebates and conversations and
this was a real methodicaldecision that you were able to
make.
Dr. William Attaway (17:42):
You know, as I listen to you talk about
this and your interactions withyour team, it sounds like you
have a phenomenal relationshipwith them, where you're sharing
what I call the last 10% ofhonesty with each other, where
you're not holding back butyou're sharing all of it in the
goal, with the goal in mind ofhelping the clients more, of
(18:02):
serving them at a higher leveland of seeing the business
thrive.
Is that accurate?
Flynn Zaiger (18:08):
Yeah, I think it comes from who we hire, and I
certainly don't make always thegreatest hiring decisions, but
one thing that I've alwaysreally strove for is hiring
people that are better than you.
I think that that's key toespecially.
A mistake that I see a lot ofyounger leaders make is you feel
(18:31):
like, as a leader, you need tobe able to manage and teach
everyone something, to be ableto understand their work and be
able to kind of showcase thatthere's a reason you're a leader
, especially if you're everhiring people that are older
than you, which I did oftenbecause I was starting a company
at 22.
So most people that you try tohire are older than you, and
that's definitely a mistake.
(18:52):
You'd want to hire people thatslightly intimidate you, and I
think that that is the key tosuccess, because you want them
to be able to build a companybeyond what you were able to
build and you want them to havetheir own area of expertise, and
part of looking for that skillset also tends to hire people
who are willing to talk back toyou couple of days that they are
(19:16):
there.
You need to emphasize thatyou're here.
You want feedback,no-transcript like hundreds of
pages of documentation and stepsand tasks.
This will look like a veryorganized process because we've
(19:38):
built it over the last 10 years.
It is, but you should keep youreye out for ways we could do it
better.
In five days, you're going toget a survey that says how could
we have done this better, andwe would love your ideas.
We'd love your feedback on that, because this is an
ever-changing process and sothat is a good way, from day one
, to establish that they shouldbe telling you ways to improve.
(19:59):
They should be offeringcritiques and feedback, and it's
super important.
I think the most importantthing is not only that you are
asking for it and you'reinviting it, but that you
respond the first couple timesthat they offer feedback.
If they offer that survey, theysay, hey, you should actually
start onboarding at 7am insteadof 8am.
You don't have to do that.
(20:20):
I don't want to say like,blindly accept choices from new
employees, but you have torespond to that.
You have to say that's a greatidea.
This is why we do it.
This is why we're not going todo it Like we're going to
implement that in a few months.
But that's good, offering justacceptance and acknowledgement
of their ideas at the beginning,because their first ideas are
not going to be like a $10million idea that changes the
(20:42):
organization.
They're going to test thewaters too, because this is a
new role for them, a new company, and they want to see how well
their ideas are going to beaccepted.
If you accept those and whetheryou incorporate that or not, at
least indicate that you'velistened and thought carefully
about it, they will push back onyou and more important
decisions and in more importantways, um, and that's that's how
(21:04):
you can make your company somuch better, because you can be
the most brilliant person in theworld, but you don't have time
to like do everything in thecompany, especially as you grow,
and having other people willingto take risks and not feel like
they're going to be let down ifit goes wrong, and be able to
explain their choices and beable to have that trust that you
(21:24):
will back them up will makethem a better employee and then
will make their employees betteremployees.
So you'll grow multiple layersof leadership, which is really,
I think, the goal of a companyis to build that next generation
for yourself, because you know,eventually we're all aging.
Unfortunately, no one solvedthat in the company yet, and so
you'll need to have that nextgeneration of leadership if you
(21:46):
want to continue.
Dr. William Attaway (21:46):
You know, everything that you're
describing requires humility onthe part of the leader and
really the leaders of anything.
Yeah, is that something thatyou model and have always
modeled, or is it something thatyou've learned over time?
Flynn Zaiger (22:02):
Yeah, I find a key to success is lack of
confidence and imposter syndrome.
In certain ways, I know Istarted off this conversation by
saying have too much confidence.
You really want to dial thatway back at certain times.
I think it's a mix of both.
I feel think it's a mix of bothand it's not like a.
I feel that there's a lot ofbooks that that's the quickest
(22:22):
way to a self-help book is youcome up with one idea and you're
like if you follow that rule100% of the time, you will run a
much better business, You'll bemuch happier, You'll be a
better partner, a better familymember, and I think the actual
key to success is taking allthese ideas and concepts from
mentors and podcasts you listento and books and your colleagues
(22:42):
, and figuring out the rightways to apply them.
I think humility and empathy isjust something that was taught
to me as a kid.
My parents and I guess this isthe other element of why I
started my business is they hada.
My parents have a retail store.
They've sold.
They've sold many things.
They've also pivoted.
They used to sell a lot ofschool uniforms when I was a kid
(23:05):
.
Now they sell men's formal wear.
We've sold a retail store.
Then we were put on.
They were on eBay and thenAmazon, Yahoo web stores.
We were one of the firstthird-party clothing sellers on
Amazon.
Oh, wow, Back when you wouldtell people you were selling a
shirt on Amazon and they werelike the book place, it was a
long time ago.
I remember, and now it's kind ofgone full circle actually, and
(23:29):
they're more of a retail storethan online, just because very
cheap fast fashion has kind ofknocked out a lot of apparel.
We'll do that as a separatepodcast, just the world of
e-commerce, but I think thepoint there is.
I saw how my customersinteracted, or my parents
interacted with customers intheir store and how they
listened to their stories andhow they like offer military
(23:50):
discounts.
They would, you know peoplewere trying to get something for
a prom.
They would give them multipleties if they weren't sure what
their date's dress looked like,so that they'd have one that
perfectly matched Like littlethings that go far beyond how
most retail stores treatcustomers and that's really how.
(24:10):
When I started the companythat's in my mindset was like
that's how I will treat myclients is give them that sort
of empathy and willingness to beexceptionally helpful and go
above and beyond.
And what I've learned is thatit's more important to not have
that empathy for your.
It's important to have yourempathy for the clients, but
it's more important to have thatempathy for your employees
(24:32):
employees and to see them aspeople, to see them as humans
and to help them grow ratherthan seeing them as cogs, as you
said.
You really need to understandthat they're people.
They have unique motivationsand dreams and hopes and fears,
and work individually with themto help them build that career,
however they want to do it.
Dr. William Attaway (24:53):
So good, but talk about your habits, your
rhythms.
How do you stay on top of yourgame?
Your business, your team, yourclients they all need you to
lead at a higher level todaythan they did five years ago,
and the same thing is going tobe true five years from now.
How do you level up with thenew leadership skills that
they're going to need you tohave in the days ahead?
Flynn Zaiger (25:16):
Yeah, I think it goes back to empathy and
trusting your team members.
One of the things that I amvery appreciative of is that my
team is often looking for waysto help me be more efficient by
taking me out of the loop.
They could just not want totalk to me.
That's one option, but I'mgoing to look at it as they want
to free up my time, becausethey know that any minute that I
(25:38):
get that I'm not working in thebusiness, working on client
work, is a minute that I get tospend growing the business,
thinking of new ideas, and I'veshowcased that to them over time
.
I think they've seen how I'vebeen able to pivot and adapt and
add new service lines andlisten to what they want to do
and help them grow.
And so, because of that,they're often stepping in and
(25:59):
being like, hey, Flynn doesn'tneed to work on this, he should
be working on something else.
And that doesn't come from mebeing like I'm a CEO, I don't
have time to do this.
I am often sometimes steppingin and taking care of some of
the grunt work, but that meansthat when I do that I kind of
buy myself some favors.
Why I don't do that in thefuture.
But the organizational thing,like we have some standard
(26:20):
systems, a project manager andwe use Asana and teamwork like
the software platforms.
But I think the key that wefound is is being able to
delegate and then being able tomake sure that other members of
the team are as empowered as youare to make decisions, to add
policies, Like a lot of ourcultural stuff.
(26:41):
I think when you go online onour website, our cultural stuff
is a lot of what most people see.
Most of those ideas honestlyweren't about me.
I wish I could say that I builtan amazing company because I
had really good ideas.
I did not, and most of thoseideas are coming from employees
saying your idea sucked, Flynn.
I built a better one, Can we dothis?
And I wish they said can we dothis?
But they mostly just say I'mdoing this and I go wonderful,
(27:04):
great, here's a ramp card.
That's our financial system.
Please take the money andfigure it out.
And that's where a lot of theworkflows and policies and
processes to staying organizedhave come from.
Is empowering other people toinvest in new software tools and
processes that they build, theyroll out.
Then it comes back to me and Ijust have to follow their
(27:26):
well-written instructions.
Dr. William Attaway (27:28):
Nice, as you have been in this posture of
learning for 13 plus years andcontinue to, is there a book
that has made a big differencein your journey that you'd
recommend to the leaders who arelistening?
Flynn Zaiger (27:42):
Yeah, I like reading books that are warnings.
I'm reading the Power Broker,which is about Robert Moses
which is not a great.
I don't know if he's awonderful person or not.
It's mostly about, like, howpower corrupts, but I think it
is.
It is helpful to understandinto.
Uh, I learn really well fromwarnings and kind of
(28:05):
understanding what to do andwhat not to do.
I think that was really key iswhen I started this company I
was very early in my career.
I'd had a lot of internships,wanted a job.
I had some wonderful bosses,some not wonderful bosses, and I
really think I would love tosay that I learned more from
emulating my wonderful bosses,but I think I learned more from
(28:27):
seeing how bad bosses not onlymade you feel bad but made the
work worse.
So good made you feel bad butmade the work worse, and that's
really.
It's not a very optimisticthing, but I think that it is
key to think about a lot is thatsometimes you can learn better
by thinking what do I not wantto do in this situation and
(28:49):
acting the opposite.
Anyway, robert Moses built alot of things, wasn't the
greatest, most empathetic human.
So I think it's a lot ofleadership lessons and how not
to be that kind of leader whichI'm gaining, but it's been
interesting and something that Itry to do at the end of the day
try to read a couple of pagesor so.
Dr. William Attaway (29:08):
Well, I think you can learn a lot that
way.
I believe you can learn fromanybody.
If you have a teachable spirit,you can learn from anybody.
Sometimes you learn what not todo, and that can be insanely
valuable, and that's what I'mhearing, and I love that you
mentioned that.
Flynn Zaiger (29:22):
Hopefully you're not learning that from me today.
Dr. William Attaway (29:30):
You know people look at your agency and
they're like, oh my goodness,man Flynn's just up and to the
right, he's never struggled,he's never had problems, he's
never had issues.
And we know that's not true.
If I could snap my fingersright now and solve one problem
in your business, in your agency, what would you want that
(29:52):
problem to be?
Flynn Zaiger (29:54):
Yeah, I think the one thing that I've struggled
with for 13 years and I still tothis day every time we do it, I
make a change to the process,which kills my team, because
they would love something theycould follow and I'm like we
could do this better.
We could do this better.
That's client onboarding for us, which is a pretty crucial step
, but I think this is a lot ofservice organizations would know
.
This is when you meet someone.
(30:17):
This is a lot of serviceorganizations would know.
This is when you meet someone,your sales team talks to them,
gets all their needs wants,sells them something, and then
that needs to now be done by anentirely other team.
Um, and that is such a commonthing.
That's an issue, and I thinkthat is where a lot of
organizations, if you do thatwrong, like you immediately get
the contract, like there's noway to recover, and the big
(30:38):
challenge here is that when westart talking to someone, we say
how soon do you want to start?
And they're almost always likeyesterday I want to start, and
we're like great, it will takeus way longer to be ready,
because we can't do an Instagrampost, because we'll get a
comment on it immediately and weneed to know how to respond to
that, and that takes time.
You have to build brandstandards, and so the real
challenge is how fast can youonboard a client and get your
(31:01):
team ready to work and build allthe foundational stuff, um, and
while making sure that you'renot making any mistakes and we
have wavered anywhere, I think,in the past decade or so from
two days to five weeks.
We have tried everything, and Iwill apologize if you're an
online autism client listeningto this and you're somewhere in
that range.
You're like, ah, I wish I wason the two-day side.
(31:23):
We've made it a lot better andit is something that, like, I
want to do it as fast aspossible, as efficiently as
possible, but it's somethingthat you just need to build that
trust and see your clients ashumans, and that takes time.
That's not something that youhave one 30-minute meeting and
you're ready to speak as them.
It takes a lot of back andforth and a lot of questions and
(31:44):
trust building.
So, similar to how I try tobuild it with my employees, my
employees then have to build itwith clients, and that is
something that I would love tosnap a finger and have people do
it, someone could inventtelepathy.
I think that would help mereally nicely, just really a way
for us to read each other'sminds.
That would solve my one businessproblem.
I think that's probably thebest use case.
If you invent, mind reading isto help us onboard clients
(32:07):
better.
That's what I would do.
Dr. William Attaway (32:09):
Well, hopefully somebody listening to
the show is going to reach outto you and say I've got the
thing.
Flynn Zaiger (32:15):
Please do Make it also like $5 a month per
employee.
That would be super helpful.
Dr. William Attaway (32:19):
Exactly right.
Flynn Zaiger (32:20):
Not much for mind reading.
Dr. William Attaway (32:26):
I love it.
Flynn, this has just been amasterclass in servant
leadership and leading withhumility, seeing your people as
the most valuable resource youhave and treating them in a way
that is going to honor them, andI love that.
I think that is such aphenomenal leadership principle
that I don't see nearly as oftenas I wish I did, so thank you
for sharing so generously and soopenly today.
Flynn Zaiger (32:48):
Thank you.
This whole conversation was ablast.
I learned a lot and Iappreciate your questions and
really just being able to chatabout this.
Hopefully it helps other peoplebe leaders too.
Dr. William Attaway (32:59):
I know it will and I know they're going to
want to stay connected to youand continue to learn more from
you and about what you're doing.
What's the best way for them todo?
Flynn Zaiger (33:07):
that you can reach out to me on LinkedIn Flynn,
Zager, F-L-Y-N-N-Z-A-I-G-E-R.
Neither of those names is easyto spell or if you reach out to
our company on online optimism.
Again, they took away my socialmedia privileges, so that will
eventually get to me.
Someone else will see.
So feel free to comment onanything we are doing.
The only time I'm ever on oursocial media is if my social
(33:29):
media team has figured out a wayto embarrass me and they asked
me to film a video and then Ifind out a couple weeks later
what that was for so, but feelfree to comment on that or just
reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Dr. William Attaway (33:42):
I'm always happy to chat with anyone.
Perfect, we'll have those linksin the show notes, flynn, thank
you.
Flynn Zaiger (33:45):
Thank you, it was a great time.
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