November 4, 2025 • 27 mins
Scaling isn’t the same as growing, and no one knows that better than Rachel Allen. For 17 years, she’s run Bolt from the Blue Copywriting, serving clients in 21 countries. But when she built and scaled an agency because she thought she “should,” the result was burnout, frustration, and misalignment.
In this episode, Rachel and I unpack the mindset and structural shifts that lead to sustainable agency growth: growth that fits your wiring, not the industry’s expectations. We talk about why “bigger” isn’t always better, how to lead from clarity instead of comparison, and why human-centered marketing still wins in an AI-driven world.
If you’ve felt the pressure to scale, but sense there’s a smarter, saner way forward, this conversation will help you realign your systems, your strategy, and your definition of success.
Books Mentioned
- Indirect Work by Carol Sanford
Connect with Rachel Allen at boltfromthebluecopywriting.com or on LinkedIn. You can also reach her directly at hello@boltfromthebluecopywriting.com — yes, by email, just like the good old days.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
- Free 30-Minute Discovery Call:
Ready to elevate your business? Book a free 30-minute discovery call with Dr. William Attaway and start your journey to success.
- Special Offer:
Get your FREE copy of Catalytic Leadership: 12 Keys to Becoming an Intentional Leader Who Makes a Difference.
Connect with Dr. William Attaway:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. William Attaway (00:00):
I'm so excited today to have Rachel
Allen on the podcast.
Rachel is a fast thinking,deeply nerdy marketer with broad
ranging experience in thefor-profit and nonprofit
sectors.
She's written for some of thebiggest and smallest names in
business and excels at marketingthat's equal parts data-driven
(00:21):
and human-centered.
Having run a marketing businessfor 17 years with clients in
over 21 countries, Rachel'sworked with some of the top
names in entrepreneurship, aswell as influencers, brick and
mortar businesses, andnonprofits around the world.
Her work has contributeddirectly to high ROI launches,
(00:41):
leaps in audience engagement,industry awards, relationships
with top venture capital firms,and national level honors.
Rachel, I'm so glad you'rehere.
Thanks for being on the show.
Rachel Allen (00:53):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so happy to be here.
Dr. William Attaway (00:56):
I've been looking forward to this
conversation.
Rachel Allen (00:58):
Me too.
Intro (01:02):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host, author, andleadership and executive coach,
Dr.
William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (01:20):
I would love to start with you sharing
some of your story with ourlisteners, particularly around
your journey and yourdevelopment as a leader.
How did you get started?
Rachel Allen (01:30):
Gosh, I mean, so I fell into copywriting
completely backwards.
I had no idea what it was untilthe day I started doing it
because I wanted to be ajournalist.
And that's what I'd gone toschool for and, you know, done
the the track, all theextraherculars, interned it in
PR, all the things.
And then I graduated in 2008.
(01:51):
And of course, no one's hiringjournalists.
It's like, well, okay.
So um I sent out, you know, 200resumes.
I got no responses.
And the only job I could getwas working uh in the old Navy
warehouse.
I was unpacking boxes on the 5a.m.
ship.
Dr. William Attaway (02:07):
My goodness.
Rachel Allen (02:08):
Yeah.
And even with that, they werelike, I don't know, like, it's a
little iffy.
I don't know if we we have toomany liberal arts majors already
in here.
Yeah, ouch.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we were all in there and Istuck it out for about six
months, but you know, thatwasn't what I wanted to do with
my life.
And so in my 22-year-old brain,I was like, you know, I wonder
what the furthest place awayfrom Tennessee is.
And turns out it's Hong Kong.
(02:30):
So I bought a plane ticket andmoved there.
Yeah, totally the 22-year-oldbrain's like, yeah, absolutely.
Uh, did not get a work visa,like had no plan, no nothing.
And so I just uh landed thereand had to make rent.
And I'm so like, I'm Googlinglike how to make money online,
you know.
Yeah.
And I found this this gig,which I was like, sure was a
scam because it was saying, youknow, we'll hire we'll pay you
(02:51):
$3.25 if you will write us 600words about this thing that we
sell.
And I was like, okay, sure,sure you'll pay me that.
But, you know, I I wasdesperate and I decided to try
it out.
And uh shockingly enough, theydid actually pay me.
It was a legit thing.
And I I was so because I waslike, I cannot believe somebody
would pay me to do somethingthat is so fun for me and so
(03:13):
easy.
And so that's how I got startedin the business.
And I think, you know, I saidlike in a bunch of different
places, I think starting abusiness is really the personal
development journey.
Nobody realizes they're onuntil you're in the middle of
it.
And I think that's had such animpact on my development as a
leader.
Dr. William Attaway (03:31):
You know, when somebody starts down this
road, you know, they begin tofind some success.
And then you have to hirepeople to help you with
fulfillment to get a team,whether they're contractors or
employees or however you dothat, and then all of a sudden
you're the leader.
Rachel Allen (03:46):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (03:47):
Which is you didn't really sign up for
that.
Rachel Allen (03:49):
Very much no.
So how did you navigate that?
Um, pretty badly for the firstcouple years.
Uh so I I decided after I haddone this whole thing for I
don't know, five, ten years orsomething, I was like, you know
what?
I should build an agencybecause that's what people in
this industry do.
And I didn't really think aboutwhether I actually wanted that
(04:10):
or not, or whether that madesense for me, or whether I was
even suited to run one.
But like, it's like you gottascale, that's what you do.
So I um started hiring peopleand with mixed success, mixed
results, I guess I would say, uhlargely down to I just it would
have never occurred to me thatI needed to like speak to these
people on a daily basis becauseI didn't, you know, ever work
(04:34):
for anybody else.
I've never had another job inmy adult life.
And so I would just send theassignments out and I would
expect people to get them done.
And sometimes they do them andsometimes they wouldn't.
And then I would talk to themonce a year, right around
Christmas, and be like, hey, isthis good for you?
Sounds great.
Let's keep going.
That's great.
I love that.
Never would it have occurred tome because I'm like, I don't
want to talk to anybody else.
(04:54):
Like, why do we need to talk toeach other?
Dr. William Attaway (04:56):
That may be one of my favorite stories now.
I love that.
Rachel Allen (04:59):
That's so good.
It's the once-a-year managementstyle.
That's right.
Dr. William Attaway (05:03):
The one I mean, I've never heard that
before.
You just coined it.
So well done, Rachel.
Rachel Allen (05:07):
That's what you're doing.
My book and seminars will becoming out shortly.
That's right.
Dr. William Attaway (05:13):
And that worked really well.
I can imagine.
Rachel Allen (05:15):
That's super great.
Dr. William Attaway (05:17):
My goodness.
Oh, that's that's awesome.
So, so what caused you tochange that?
Rachel Allen (05:24):
So I uh I realized I was really frustrated and
resentful of what I was doing,and I had never felt like this
before.
And so I started looking atthat and I wanted to look at
myself because even though I wasvery unprepared to manage a
team, like I was pretty sure Iwas the problem.
You know, I was like, I'm notgonna just say that, like, oh, I
just hired bad people, it'stheir fault.
I'm sure like I am the commonfactor here.
(05:45):
It must be something to do withme.
So I started reading booksabout management and about team
building.
I enrolled in a leadershipprogram, a four-year program.
And throughout that, I actuallyrealized that uh I didn't want
to lead a team.
So I ended up descaling,switching over to a boutique
one-to-one model.
And that actually works a lotbetter for me because I get to
(06:05):
lead, you know, in an industry,but I don't have to lead a team
when I don't want to.
You know, and I can go intoother people's businesses and
lead their teams, and I actuallyreally enjoy that.
I'm shockingly much better atit than I was in my own
business.
But with my own day-to-day, Iwas like, actually, you know,
that wasn't the agency was nevermy goal to begin with.
And so of course it didn't goall that great because I didn't
(06:26):
really want that.
Dr. William Attaway (06:27):
This story is so important, and I want to
emphasize this before we go anyfarther, because what you are
illustrating is a truth thatthere is not a one size fits all
when it comes to building abusiness or even building an
agency.
You know, so often people lookat the highlight reels of other
people that they deem moresuccessful, and they're like,
(06:47):
oh, I have to do what they didthe way they did it.
I have to hire people, scale,grow, build, more people, more
people, have more, manage morepeople.
That is a way to do it.
But there are multiple ways todo this.
And I love what you'reillustrating here, that you
found what is a fit for you, forhow you're wired.
And you were comfortable enoughwith who you are and how you
(07:09):
are wired not to feel thepressure to be like the other
people that you see around you.
Rachel Allen (07:14):
Thank you.
It was a hard one lesson.
It took about three years toreally undo the damage that I
had done to my business bychasing a dream that wasn't
mine.
And I'm honestly just reallycoming out of it in this last
year or so.
Dr. William Attaway (07:26):
Wow.
Yeah.
Well, I just I applaud that.
I encourage you in that.
Like that's healthy.
And I think that that's reallya much better fit.
The expectations we place onourselves so often are
unhealthy, particularly whenwe're comparing ourselves to
other people and saying, well, Ishould be more like, well, I
should do it like according towho.
Rachel Allen (07:46):
Right.
Dr. William Attaway (07:46):
According to who.
Be you.
Operate the way you're wiredand designed.
Don't don't feel like you haveto be somebody else.
There's already one of them.
We don't need two.
Rachel Allen (07:56):
Exactly.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
One of my very good friendssays it takes all of us as we
are.
And I always think back tothat.
It's like, yeah, it's I need toshow up as me, and that's how I
can lead and change andinfluence and grow the world I
want to live in.
Dr. William Attaway (08:10):
And add the most value to the clients that
you serve.
I think Exactly.
So when it comes to marketing,there's a whole lot of this is a
very fast-changing field, youknow, and in agency world right
now.
I mean, so many trends, so manystrategies people are looking
at and evaluating and employing.
What trends are you seeingright now?
Rachel Allen (08:29):
So I'm seeing, well, I think we're in the
middle of one of our periodicapocalypses in the industry.
Uh, we do these about everyfour years or so.
Right now, every time thathappens, everybody's like, oh,
pack it up.
We're done.
No more money on the internet.
It's over.
Dr. William Attaway (08:41):
That's good.
That's about every four years.
I like that.
Rachel Allen (08:44):
Yeah.
No, we go through these like,and now I can finally see it.
You know, it took me aboutthree apocalypses to get it
down.
And I was like, wait, I've donethis before.
You know how this goes.
Dr. William Attaway (08:53):
Feels familiar.
Rachel Allen (08:54):
Exactly.
So I think we're in the middleof one of those, and people
always make a lot of money offof other people thinking that
it's the end times, right?
It's like, oh, it's all over,you know, but if you buy my
course, then you can survive.
So there's a lot of that.
Another thing I'm seeingactually, which I find very
heartening, is a swing back toanalog and like one-to-one
relationships, which I think isin response to AI.
(09:18):
And I think people feeloverwhelmed and frightened of
that.
And so what they're leaningtowards is like, can you send me
something in the mail?
Can I get something to hold inmy hands?
Dr. William Attaway (09:28):
Novel.
Rachel Allen (09:29):
Right?
I know.
I can't believe it.
Dr. William Attaway (09:32):
So novel, but but so personal.
Rachel Allen (09:36):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (09:36):
I think the humanization element is going
to become more and moreimportant as we automate so much
of what we do.
Rachel Allen (09:43):
Absolutely.
And I mean, that was uh, Ithink I saw Dan Holt on LinkedIn
the other day posted somethinglike 23 marketing tactics that
are working this year.
And the first one was thingsthat will not scale.
Because, you know, and that'swhy like I'll write handwritten
postcards to my clients, or Ihave another client of mine who
sends flowers to every client ontheir birthday.
And it's like, yeah, that's soit's so human, it's so lovely,
(10:06):
and it's so much different thanhere's my seven email nurture
sequence with a downloadablePDF.
Dr. William Attaway (10:10):
Gee, I've I've never seen that before.
Rachel Allen (10:12):
I know.
Dr. William Attaway (10:14):
You know, people are people are listening
to this show.
A lot of them are in the agencyworld, and a lot of them are
business owners, you know, andfor most business owners that I
talk to, marketing isintimidating.
It's it's something that theydon't fully understand.
And it can feel like they'rejust sinking money into this
black hole and they're hopingthere's going to be an ROI, but
(10:34):
nobody can guarantee.
And so there's there's a lot offear and trepidation around it.
When you're talking to businessowners, what advice do you give
them as they're thinking aboutmarketing?
Rachel Allen (10:45):
Well, the first thing I always do is I try to
put their mind at ease bysaying, as scared as you are of
talking to me, that's how scaredI always am when calling an
accountant or someone who doessomething with like numbers.
I'm I always feel like I'mmessing it up.
I always think I'm doing itwrong, and I'm usually not, but
I just I feel like I'm bad atit.
And so that can kind of easetheir minds of like, hey, you're
(11:06):
probably not doing it wrong,but you for whatever reason feel
like you're bad at it, andthat's okay because I'm really
good at it and I can help youwith it, and like I'm not gonna
judge you about it.
So I do that reframe, and thenI encourage them to think about
what their strategic goals intheir business actually are and
approach their marketing fromthat perspective, as opposed to
what do the marketing gurus sayyou should do this year, or
(11:28):
what's on trend, or what's, youknow, what is the most insecure
inside part of you say.
It's like, no, what do youwant?
What are you gonna do to makethat happen?
And how are we gonna know ifit's working?
Dr. William Attaway (11:38):
I love that.
And I love the non-scalabilityof what you just described.
Rachel Allen (11:42):
Yeah, I'm like, I mean, I can build you all sorts
of funnels and beautiful things.
And if it's not a fit for you,it's not gonna work, you know.
Ask me how I know.
Right.
Dr. William Attaway (11:51):
So it sounds like you listen as you're
talking to your clients orprospective clients.
Rachel Allen (11:57):
I do.
I um I do I never work withanyone that I haven't spoken to
personally for at least like 20,30 minutes just to get the vibe
off of them and also to see if,you know, if we're a fit,
because it's a marketing'spersonal, you know, it has to
sound like you.
It needs to feel like you ifit's gonna work.
And if for whatever reason, Ican't, uh I don't, I don't feel
(12:18):
like I wanna, it's gonna soundso woo-woo, be in that energy,
but really it's like I justdon't want to like hang out with
that person.
I'm not gonna be able to doconvincing marketing for them.
Dr. William Attaway (12:26):
Good.
And I think I think that's anelement too that our listeners
can really benefit fromlistening to the people that you
want to work with or potentialpotential clients or the clients
that you have.
If you don't listen, listeningis a leader superpower.
And in my experience, it's aless utilized one than I believe
it should be.
Absolutely.
That's when you hear the heart.
And that's when you can bringthe best of you to bear for what
(12:49):
they're doing.
I love what you said too about,you know, the that's how you
feel talking to an accountant.
We think of accountants asprofessionals, right?
We think of attorneys asprofessionals, we think of
doctors as professionals.
But I see too many businessowners, particularly in the
marketing space, not positioningthemselves as that same type of
professional.
Reality is you know how to dothings that I don't know how to
(13:11):
do as a business owner.
And so when I come to you, Iwant to leverage that expertise
and what you have spent yourprofession learning.
Why would I try to second guessyou?
I don't try to second guess myattorney.
I mean, right?
I don't try to second guess myaccountant.
At least I hope I don't, myaccountant, you know.
The same thing should be truefor other professionals that we
(13:32):
deal with, but too many peopleare not positioning themselves
like that.
So when you're talking topeople, how do you do that?
How do you position yourself asthat person of expertise who's
got 17 years of track doing thisnow?
You know a little bit about it,you know?
Rachel Allen (13:48):
Yeah.
Uh I mean, I think the firstthing is it's this is more of an
internal thing, but I acceptthe expertise for myself.
You know, I don't go intoconversations thinking like,
maybe this is the one that Iscrew up, or, you know, like I
don't I've done a lot ofpersonal development work and a
lot of leadership developmentwork within myself to be like,
look, I have a clear vision forwhere I'm going with my work and
my career.
(14:09):
And that's what this is inservice of.
And so my own personal stuffkind of becomes irrelevant, you
know, in the in the light of themission.
So I get my head on straight.
And then I go in and I reallyjust try to have a deep sense of
empathy for where they are.
Because as you said, listeningto them and being able to really
hear them on like a deep levelis something that I don't think
(14:32):
most people experience whenthey're talking to a service
professional, because mostpeople have like the box or the
funnel or the process orwhatever.
And I don't.
All my work is individual.
I design packages for everybodyI work with.
And I'm like, yeah, because Ithe level at which I am working,
your problems do not fit in abox.
You've if you're coming to me,you have something more complex.
(14:52):
And I know that you're reallysmart because you've already run
a business.
You're running this great,successful business.
And so if you can't solve thisproblem, it's a it's a weird
one.
And so, like the level at whichI approach the problems, I
think also shows people like,yeah, I'm serious about this.
You're not going to get thetypical, you know, tick the 10
boxes and then, oh, look, you'vegot marketing thing with me.
It's like, no, we're going tothink about it, we're going to
(15:13):
solve some really weirdproblems, and we're going to
grow some relationships.
Dr. William Attaway (15:16):
I love that.
You know, the the reality ishow you deal with people begins
with how you deal with yourself.
And I love that you've spentthe time doing the work to make
sure that you're bringing thehealthiest mindset and the
healthiest perspective as aleader that you can to your
clients.
And again, that's something Ihope our listeners are grabbing
(15:36):
onto because this is work thatyou can do no matter where you
are.
If you struggle with thingslike imposter syndrome, if you
struggle with shiny objectsyndrome, where you're just
chasing every new thing, thatreflects something going on
inside of you.
And you got to deal with that.
Because if you don't, you'regoing to carry it into every
conversation you have, everyrelationship that you have with
clients or prospective clients.
(15:58):
I love that you brought thatout, Rachel.
Rachel Allen (16:00):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, people can feelit.
And something, so I teach a uhworkshop about how to write
bios, and this often comes upbecause people have done really
amazing things, but they feelweird talking about them and
they feel like they're notallowed to really own them.
And so one thing that I tellthem, which is it's actually a
phrase from libel law, is justthe truth is an absolute
(16:21):
defense.
So if you did it, you can talkabout it.
And you don't have to make itsome sort of like giant thing,
like, oh, I'm the most amazingperson in the whole world who's
done all this thing.
But equally, it doesn't doanybody any favors if you say
something and then immediatelytry to back it down.
It just makes us feeluncomfortable.
So it's like, yeah, just saythe thing and let it stand for
(16:43):
yourself and for your clients.
Dr. William Attaway (16:45):
You know, you you often say that that 99%
of marketing advice that peopleget sets them up to fail.
Why do you say that?
Rachel Allen (16:56):
Uh well, because I've seen it fail, but because I
um I've done a lot of analysis,sort of like looking back on
projects I've done, projectsother people have done, and
trying to figure out why theyworked and why they didn't.
And what I realized is for asale to happen, you have to have
four factors all together.
And that's you have to have theright thing in front of the
(17:16):
right person at the right timeand in the right way.
And most of those factors youhave no control over.
But all the marketing advice ispredicated as though you had
control over all four of thosefactors.
And so it's like, well, youcan't control the timing at
which someone sees your post,but that means you probably
didn't do it right and there'ssomething wrong with you, and
you should just be in moreplaces.
I'm like, that's just cruel.
(17:37):
No one can be everywhere.
Well said.
Yeah.
I can't control time.
I would love to.
Be amazing, wouldn't it?
Right?
Dr. William Attaway (17:46):
No, that's really good.
I mean, focusing on what youcan control and understanding
that there are elements that youcan't.
I think that's realistic.
Rachel Allen (17:54):
Yeah, and I think something that so many people,
I've seen so many people just beheartbroken over and and leave
business over is this refusal toacknowledge that sometimes just
sheer luck plays into thisstuff.
Like sometimes of course hardwork matters, of course doing
your best matters, craftsmanshipmatters, but sometimes you just
hit something just right andfor whatever reason it takes
(18:16):
off, and there's no explanationother than you were there at the
right time in the right placeand it worked.
Dr. William Attaway (18:21):
Hmm.
That's good.
I like that.
You know, speaking of of thingsthat have circled around a few
times, and we seem to feel asense of deja vu with this one.
One thing we're hearing a lotin the field is that email
marketing, yeah, it's over.
It's dead.
No more need for that.
I mean, I've watched that comethrough a couple of times
(18:41):
through the station, right?
And now we're now we're hearingit again.
It's something that you talkabout.
Do you think that's true?
Rachel Allen (18:49):
I mean, if it's dead, I've got a real healthy
looking zombie.
So I mean, it's it's workinggreat for me.
That's excellent.
Dr. William Attaway (18:57):
Perhaps we're not doing it right.
Rachel Allen (18:59):
Or, you know, I think you know, the whole like
the standard sign up for my listand get this free PDF, which no
one wants and no one reads.
And then I'm gonna email youevery single week with uh what
are people, analysis insightsand helpful tips.
I do not want any of thosethings.
Nothing.
Do not give me more analysis.
If I want analysis, I will goand find it.
But some things that's great.
(19:22):
Well, some things that I amfinding are working well though,
is just it's you it's steppingaway from, I guess, traditional
like email marketing and thenusing the medium of email to
communicate in some reallyinteresting ways.
So one of my clients, she neveremails anything but a question.
She emails one really goodquestion to all of her clients
(19:43):
on a Thursday.
And it like it puts you in yourCEO mind space and you have to
like really think about it.
And so that's what she's like,look, at the level you're
working on, you don't needanswers.
You have answers.
You need somebody who canchallenge you enough to be like,
you know, I never thought aboutthat.
Shoot, what should I do?
And like, I have another clientor another friend who's doing
this brilliant marketingcampaign, which is somehow part
(20:07):
scavenger hunt murder mystery,but via email.
And people are going crazy forit.
And so people aren't tired ofemail marketing, they're just
tired of being treated badly.
Dr. William Attaway (20:17):
Man, I want to think about that.
That is that is really good,Rachel.
I I wow.
And again, I'm I and Jess said,you know, you know, the rest of
us are doing it wrong.
But maybe we are.
Rachel Allen (20:32):
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think thatthings are working right now are
in any kind of marketing, arepeople stretching the bounds of
what they previously thought aplatform or a medium could do?
So it's like, yeah, how can youget really weird with your
LinkedIn posts?
What can we do via email?
How can we use these tools thathave we've been taught to see
(20:52):
as doing one thing and break allthose rules and use them in a
totally different way?
Dr. William Attaway (20:58):
You know, I think about E.E.
Cummings.
Oddly when you say that, youknow, I I love to read E.E.
Cummings because he breaks somany rules.
Rachel Allen (21:06):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (21:07):
And and but you have to know the rules in
order to know how to break themwell.
And I think that's what he wasa master of.
Rachel Allen (21:13):
Well, absolutely.
Dr. William Attaway (21:14):
It sounds a little bit like what you're
talking about when it comes toemail marketing and other types.
Rachel Allen (21:19):
Yeah, because I mean, both of these people can
absolutely bang out a sevenemail nurture campaign.
They can do the newsletterthing, they can do whatever.
But it's just like they knowthat they don't want those
things in their inbox.
They don't read them.
And so now they're thinkingabout what what would I actually
voluntarily read?
What would I go into my inboxfor?
Wow.
That's a great question.
Dr. William Attaway (21:40):
You know, thinking about you as a business
owner, you know, you you haveto lead your clients and your
business at a higher level todaythan you did five years ago.
And that same thing is gonna betrue five years from now.
What are you doing to stay ontop of your game?
How do you level up yourleadership skills so that
(22:00):
they're gonna be what yourclients and your business need
them to be in the years to come?
Rachel Allen (22:06):
I love that question.
I think the first thing I readall the time, and whether that's
leadership books, businessbooks, but also fiction and all
sorts of crazy nonfiction, I'mright now just head down in a
book about the language ofcults.
So things that you would neverthink, yeah, it's really weird.
Things you would never thinkwould tie together, but I think
it all sort of comes intosynthesis, and then I'm able to
(22:27):
use that and develop in myleadership.
But also I put myself indeliberately challenging
situations where I know that I'mprobably gonna fail and I'm not
gonna do well, and it's thingsthat I'm not as naturally good
at because I learn things aboutmyself in seeing how I react to
that failure and how I react tothe new situation, and I can
always make a different decisionnext time.
Dr. William Attaway (22:49):
That's really good.
That continual learning postureis what I hear running through
that whole thing.
You know, as you read, as youare constantly taking in new
information, I'm curious, isthere a book that has made a big
difference in your journey thatyou'd love to recommend?
Rachel Allen (23:04):
Oh gosh.
Oh, there's so many.
I think uh the one I'll go withis Indirect Work by Carol
Sanford.
It's a teeny little book, veryuh very short, but she uh let me
think about how I want todescribe it.
It's such a it's such a uniquebook.
I'm I'm not even sure how to gointo it, but it's a business
book, uh, it's about leadership,and she takes the metaphor of
most of us think about affectingchange in the in a direct A to
(23:27):
B situation, right?
So she uses the metaphor of apool table.
If I hit the ball, that hitsthe other ball, and then I get
what I want.
And she's like, Yeah, but whatif you move the whole table?
Like, how can you in your workmove the entire table, which is
so much more effective?
So it's just a completelydifferent dimension of working.
Dr. William Attaway (23:44):
I've not heard of this book, but now you
have intrigued me.
I'll be picking that one.
That's really interesting.
Thank you.
Excellent.
Rachel, you know, uh peoplepeople look at you and they see
somebody who is like incrediblysuccessful with what she's
chosen to do, with the businessthat she's built over 17 years.
And I think that the naturalresponse sometimes is to say,
(24:05):
oh, wow, what amazing success.
Oh, Rachel has never struggledlike I struggled.
She's never dealt with theproblems that I deal with.
Because they're looking at yourhighlight reel.
Sure.
Right.
And that's so easy for us toall fall into.
We know the fallacy of that.
But in that spirit, I want toask you a question.
If I had the ability to snap myfingers and solve one problem
(24:26):
right now in your business, whatwould you want that problem to
be?
Rachel Allen (24:31):
So the flip answer is I would like to be able to
time travel and do more things.
But I think the real answer isI think about how I want to
phrase this.
I think the real answer is Iwould love to only do the things
that truly matter.
And I find myself caught up insmaller things, trivia, you
(24:53):
know, email admin, all that kindof stuff.
And I want to clone myself sothat somebody else can do it to
the level that I require.
Because I've never ever seenI've never found that in another
person that I've worked withyet.
Dr. William Attaway (25:04):
That's that's fantastic.
Now I had uh uh had a mentortell me once that if somebody
else can do something 80% aswell as you can, that you should
let them do it.
As a as a leader, as an owner,it's you should absolutely hand
it off.
And I really pushed back hardon that.
Rachel Allen (25:20):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (25:20):
And I said, 80%, are you joking?
That's a C.
Like, why would I let somebodydo C work on my team?
Like, come on, give me a break.
Like, no, that's not what wewant to do for our clients.
Wow.
And and he he said, he said,that's where they start.
And by the way, you startedwell below that.
And you grew to where you arenow.
(25:43):
Why would you not, as theirleader, give them the same
opportunity and equip andempower them to grow only with
you helping to guide thejourney?
And I I've I've never forgottenthat.
I thought, wow, that's so, so,so good.
Rachel Allen (25:59):
Feel that like in my chest.
I'm not gonna forget that evereither.
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (26:03):
It it landed so hard and it really has
challenged me ever since.
I mean, that was decades ago.
And it has challenged me eversince to to rethink how I do
that and how I look at that, thedevelopment of other people and
what I accept, because mystandards, like yours, are
pretty high.
80%'s not gonna cut it.
Rachel Allen (26:21):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (26:22):
But that's where they start.
And I just, you know, I I thinkthat's important.
It's helpful for me toreiterate that sometimes and to
remind myself of that.
And I hope our listeners areare hearing that as well,
because I think so often,particularly as high capacity,
high performance leaders, wehave very high expectations of
(26:43):
ourselves and of other people.
And that's good.
That's how we got to where weare.
But when it comes to mentoringand leading, it's very, very
important to right size thoseexpectations for the growth
journey of other people.
Just came to mind as you saidthat.
Rachel Allen (26:59):
I love that.
I love I feel like I'm gettingcoached.
This is wonderful.
I'm like, yeah, tell me my tellme how to solve my problems.
Dr. William Attaway (27:05):
That's why we help each other.
That's uh I have learned somuch today in this conversation.
And I'm so grateful for yourtransparency and your generosity
in sharing from some of whatyou've learned on your journey
so far.
I know our listeners are gonnawant to continue to learn from
you and learn more about whatyou're doing.
What is the best way for themto do that?
Rachel Allen (27:24):
They can find me at bolt from the blue
copywriting.com.
They can also connect with meon LinkedIn, or they can email
me like it is the ancient timesat hello at bolt from the blue
copywriting.com, and I willemail them back.
Dr. William Attaway (27:37):
I love it.
We will have those links in theshow notes.
Rachel, thank you truly fortoday, for this conversation and
for your generosity.
Rachel Allen (27:45):
Thank you so much.
I've so enjoyed this.
Yeah.
Wow, you ask an amazingquestion.
I'm so excited today to have Rachel
Allen on the podcast.
Rachel is a fast thinking,deeply nerdy marketer with broad
ranging experience in thefor-profit and nonprofit
sectors.
She's written for some of thebiggest and smallest names in
business and excels at marketingthat's equal parts data-driven
(00:21):
and human-centered.
Having run a marketing businessfor 17 years with clients in
over 21 countries, Rachel'sworked with some of the top
names in entrepreneurship, aswell as influencers, brick and
mortar businesses, andnonprofits around the world.
Her work has contributeddirectly to high ROI launches,
(00:41):
leaps in audience engagement,industry awards, relationships
with top venture capital firms,and national level honors.
Rachel, I'm so glad you'rehere.
Thanks for being on the show.
Rachel Allen (00:53):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so happy to be here.
Dr. William Attaway (00:56):
I've been looking forward to this
conversation.
Rachel Allen (00:58):
Me too.
Intro (01:02):
Welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host, author, andleadership and executive coach,
Dr.
William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (01:20):
I would love to start with you sharing
some of your story with ourlisteners, particularly around
your journey and yourdevelopment as a leader.
How did you get started?
Rachel Allen (01:30):
Gosh, I mean, so I fell into copywriting
completely backwards.
I had no idea what it was untilthe day I started doing it
because I wanted to be ajournalist.
And that's what I'd gone toschool for and, you know, done
the the track, all theextraherculars, interned it in
PR, all the things.
And then I graduated in 2008.
(01:51):
And of course, no one's hiringjournalists.
It's like, well, okay.
So um I sent out, you know, 200resumes.
I got no responses.
And the only job I could getwas working uh in the old Navy
warehouse.
I was unpacking boxes on the 5a.m.
ship.
Dr. William Attaway (02:07):
My goodness.
Rachel Allen (02:08):
Yeah.
And even with that, they werelike, I don't know, like, it's a
little iffy.
I don't know if we we have toomany liberal arts majors already
in here.
Yeah, ouch.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we were all in there and Istuck it out for about six
months, but you know, thatwasn't what I wanted to do with
my life.
And so in my 22-year-old brain,I was like, you know, I wonder
what the furthest place awayfrom Tennessee is.
And turns out it's Hong Kong.
(02:30):
So I bought a plane ticket andmoved there.
Yeah, totally the 22-year-oldbrain's like, yeah, absolutely.
Uh, did not get a work visa,like had no plan, no nothing.
And so I just uh landed thereand had to make rent.
And I'm so like, I'm Googlinglike how to make money online,
you know.
Yeah.
And I found this this gig,which I was like, sure was a
scam because it was saying, youknow, we'll hire we'll pay you
(02:51):
$3.25 if you will write us 600words about this thing that we
sell.
And I was like, okay, sure,sure you'll pay me that.
But, you know, I I wasdesperate and I decided to try
it out.
And uh shockingly enough, theydid actually pay me.
It was a legit thing.
And I I was so because I waslike, I cannot believe somebody
would pay me to do somethingthat is so fun for me and so
(03:13):
easy.
And so that's how I got startedin the business.
And I think, you know, I saidlike in a bunch of different
places, I think starting abusiness is really the personal
development journey.
Nobody realizes they're onuntil you're in the middle of
it.
And I think that's had such animpact on my development as a
leader.
Dr. William Attaway (03:31):
You know, when somebody starts down this
road, you know, they begin tofind some success.
And then you have to hirepeople to help you with
fulfillment to get a team,whether they're contractors or
employees or however you dothat, and then all of a sudden
you're the leader.
Rachel Allen (03:46):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (03:47):
Which is you didn't really sign up for
that.
Rachel Allen (03:49):
Very much no.
So how did you navigate that?
Um, pretty badly for the firstcouple years.
Uh so I I decided after I haddone this whole thing for I
don't know, five, ten years orsomething, I was like, you know
what?
I should build an agencybecause that's what people in
this industry do.
And I didn't really think aboutwhether I actually wanted that
(04:10):
or not, or whether that madesense for me, or whether I was
even suited to run one.
But like, it's like you gottascale, that's what you do.
So I um started hiring peopleand with mixed success, mixed
results, I guess I would say, uhlargely down to I just it would
have never occurred to me thatI needed to like speak to these
people on a daily basis becauseI didn't, you know, ever work
(04:34):
for anybody else.
I've never had another job inmy adult life.
And so I would just send theassignments out and I would
expect people to get them done.
And sometimes they do them andsometimes they wouldn't.
And then I would talk to themonce a year, right around
Christmas, and be like, hey, isthis good for you?
Sounds great.
Let's keep going.
That's great.
I love that.
Never would it have occurred tome because I'm like, I don't
want to talk to anybody else.
(04:54):
Like, why do we need to talk toeach other?
Dr. William Attaway (04:56):
That may be one of my favorite stories now.
I love that.
Rachel Allen (04:59):
That's so good.
It's the once-a-year managementstyle.
That's right.
Dr. William Attaway (05:03):
The one I mean, I've never heard that
before.
You just coined it.
So well done, Rachel.
Rachel Allen (05:07):
That's what you're doing.
My book and seminars will becoming out shortly.
That's right.
Dr. William Attaway (05:13):
And that worked really well.
I can imagine.
Rachel Allen (05:15):
That's super great.
Dr. William Attaway (05:17):
My goodness.
Oh, that's that's awesome.
So, so what caused you tochange that?
Rachel Allen (05:24):
So I uh I realized I was really frustrated and
resentful of what I was doing,and I had never felt like this
before.
And so I started looking atthat and I wanted to look at
myself because even though I wasvery unprepared to manage a
team, like I was pretty sure Iwas the problem.
You know, I was like, I'm notgonna just say that, like, oh, I
just hired bad people, it'stheir fault.
I'm sure like I am the commonfactor here.
(05:45):
It must be something to do withme.
So I started reading booksabout management and about team
building.
I enrolled in a leadershipprogram, a four-year program.
And throughout that, I actuallyrealized that uh I didn't want
to lead a team.
So I ended up descaling,switching over to a boutique
one-to-one model.
And that actually works a lotbetter for me because I get to
(06:05):
lead, you know, in an industry,but I don't have to lead a team
when I don't want to.
You know, and I can go intoother people's businesses and
lead their teams, and I actuallyreally enjoy that.
I'm shockingly much better atit than I was in my own
business.
But with my own day-to-day, Iwas like, actually, you know,
that wasn't the agency was nevermy goal to begin with.
And so of course it didn't goall that great because I didn't
(06:26):
really want that.
Dr. William Attaway (06:27):
This story is so important, and I want to
emphasize this before we go anyfarther, because what you are
illustrating is a truth thatthere is not a one size fits all
when it comes to building abusiness or even building an
agency.
You know, so often people lookat the highlight reels of other
people that they deem moresuccessful, and they're like,
(06:47):
oh, I have to do what they didthe way they did it.
I have to hire people, scale,grow, build, more people, more
people, have more, manage morepeople.
That is a way to do it.
But there are multiple ways todo this.
And I love what you'reillustrating here, that you
found what is a fit for you, forhow you're wired.
And you were comfortable enoughwith who you are and how you
(07:09):
are wired not to feel thepressure to be like the other
people that you see around you.
Rachel Allen (07:14):
Thank you.
It was a hard one lesson.
It took about three years toreally undo the damage that I
had done to my business bychasing a dream that wasn't
mine.
And I'm honestly just reallycoming out of it in this last
year or so.
Dr. William Attaway (07:26):
Wow.
Yeah.
Well, I just I applaud that.
I encourage you in that.
Like that's healthy.
And I think that that's reallya much better fit.
The expectations we place onourselves so often are
unhealthy, particularly whenwe're comparing ourselves to
other people and saying, well, Ishould be more like, well, I
should do it like according towho.
Rachel Allen (07:46):
Right.
Dr. William Attaway (07:46):
According to who.
Be you.
Operate the way you're wiredand designed.
Don't don't feel like you haveto be somebody else.
There's already one of them.
We don't need two.
Rachel Allen (07:56):
Exactly.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
One of my very good friendssays it takes all of us as we
are.
And I always think back tothat.
It's like, yeah, it's I need toshow up as me, and that's how I
can lead and change andinfluence and grow the world I
want to live in.
Dr. William Attaway (08:10):
And add the most value to the clients that
you serve.
I think Exactly.
So when it comes to marketing,there's a whole lot of this is a
very fast-changing field, youknow, and in agency world right
now.
I mean, so many trends, so manystrategies people are looking
at and evaluating and employing.
What trends are you seeingright now?
Rachel Allen (08:29):
So I'm seeing, well, I think we're in the
middle of one of our periodicapocalypses in the industry.
Uh, we do these about everyfour years or so.
Right now, every time thathappens, everybody's like, oh,
pack it up.
We're done.
No more money on the internet.
It's over.
Dr. William Attaway (08:41):
That's good.
That's about every four years.
I like that.
Rachel Allen (08:44):
Yeah.
No, we go through these like,and now I can finally see it.
You know, it took me aboutthree apocalypses to get it
down.
And I was like, wait, I've donethis before.
You know how this goes.
Dr. William Attaway (08:53):
Feels familiar.
Rachel Allen (08:54):
Exactly.
So I think we're in the middleof one of those, and people
always make a lot of money offof other people thinking that
it's the end times, right?
It's like, oh, it's all over,you know, but if you buy my
course, then you can survive.
So there's a lot of that.
Another thing I'm seeingactually, which I find very
heartening, is a swing back toanalog and like one-to-one
relationships, which I think isin response to AI.
(09:18):
And I think people feeloverwhelmed and frightened of
that.
And so what they're leaningtowards is like, can you send me
something in the mail?
Can I get something to hold inmy hands?
Dr. William Attaway (09:28):
Novel.
Rachel Allen (09:29):
Right?
I know.
I can't believe it.
Dr. William Attaway (09:32):
So novel, but but so personal.
Rachel Allen (09:36):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (09:36):
I think the humanization element is going
to become more and moreimportant as we automate so much
of what we do.
Rachel Allen (09:43):
Absolutely.
And I mean, that was uh, Ithink I saw Dan Holt on LinkedIn
the other day posted somethinglike 23 marketing tactics that
are working this year.
And the first one was thingsthat will not scale.
Because, you know, and that'swhy like I'll write handwritten
postcards to my clients, or Ihave another client of mine who
sends flowers to every client ontheir birthday.
And it's like, yeah, that's soit's so human, it's so lovely,
(10:06):
and it's so much different thanhere's my seven email nurture
sequence with a downloadablePDF.
Dr. William Attaway (10:10):
Gee, I've I've never seen that before.
Rachel Allen (10:12):
I know.
Dr. William Attaway (10:14):
You know, people are people are listening
to this show.
A lot of them are in the agencyworld, and a lot of them are
business owners, you know, andfor most business owners that I
talk to, marketing isintimidating.
It's it's something that theydon't fully understand.
And it can feel like they'rejust sinking money into this
black hole and they're hopingthere's going to be an ROI, but
(10:34):
nobody can guarantee.
And so there's there's a lot offear and trepidation around it.
When you're talking to businessowners, what advice do you give
them as they're thinking aboutmarketing?
Rachel Allen (10:45):
Well, the first thing I always do is I try to
put their mind at ease bysaying, as scared as you are of
talking to me, that's how scaredI always am when calling an
accountant or someone who doessomething with like numbers.
I'm I always feel like I'mmessing it up.
I always think I'm doing itwrong, and I'm usually not, but
I just I feel like I'm bad atit.
And so that can kind of easetheir minds of like, hey, you're
(11:06):
probably not doing it wrong,but you for whatever reason feel
like you're bad at it, andthat's okay because I'm really
good at it and I can help youwith it, and like I'm not gonna
judge you about it.
So I do that reframe, and thenI encourage them to think about
what their strategic goals intheir business actually are and
approach their marketing fromthat perspective, as opposed to
what do the marketing gurus sayyou should do this year, or
(11:28):
what's on trend, or what's, youknow, what is the most insecure
inside part of you say.
It's like, no, what do youwant?
What are you gonna do to makethat happen?
And how are we gonna know ifit's working?
Dr. William Attaway (11:38):
I love that.
And I love the non-scalabilityof what you just described.
Rachel Allen (11:42):
Yeah, I'm like, I mean, I can build you all sorts
of funnels and beautiful things.
And if it's not a fit for you,it's not gonna work, you know.
Ask me how I know.
Right.
Dr. William Attaway (11:51):
So it sounds like you listen as you're
talking to your clients orprospective clients.
Rachel Allen (11:57):
I do.
I um I do I never work withanyone that I haven't spoken to
personally for at least like 20,30 minutes just to get the vibe
off of them and also to see if,you know, if we're a fit,
because it's a marketing'spersonal, you know, it has to
sound like you.
It needs to feel like you ifit's gonna work.
And if for whatever reason, Ican't, uh I don't, I don't feel
(12:18):
like I wanna, it's gonna soundso woo-woo, be in that energy,
but really it's like I justdon't want to like hang out with
that person.
I'm not gonna be able to doconvincing marketing for them.
Dr. William Attaway (12:26):
Good.
And I think I think that's anelement too that our listeners
can really benefit fromlistening to the people that you
want to work with or potentialpotential clients or the clients
that you have.
If you don't listen, listeningis a leader superpower.
And in my experience, it's aless utilized one than I believe
it should be.
Absolutely.
That's when you hear the heart.
And that's when you can bringthe best of you to bear for what
(12:49):
they're doing.
I love what you said too about,you know, the that's how you
feel talking to an accountant.
We think of accountants asprofessionals, right?
We think of attorneys asprofessionals, we think of
doctors as professionals.
But I see too many businessowners, particularly in the
marketing space, not positioningthemselves as that same type of
professional.
Reality is you know how to dothings that I don't know how to
(13:11):
do as a business owner.
And so when I come to you, Iwant to leverage that expertise
and what you have spent yourprofession learning.
Why would I try to second guessyou?
I don't try to second guess myattorney.
I mean, right?
I don't try to second guess myaccountant.
At least I hope I don't, myaccountant, you know.
The same thing should be truefor other professionals that we
(13:32):
deal with, but too many peopleare not positioning themselves
like that.
So when you're talking topeople, how do you do that?
How do you position yourself asthat person of expertise who's
got 17 years of track doing thisnow?
You know a little bit about it,you know?
Rachel Allen (13:48):
Yeah.
Uh I mean, I think the firstthing is it's this is more of an
internal thing, but I acceptthe expertise for myself.
You know, I don't go intoconversations thinking like,
maybe this is the one that Iscrew up, or, you know, like I
don't I've done a lot ofpersonal development work and a
lot of leadership developmentwork within myself to be like,
look, I have a clear vision forwhere I'm going with my work and
my career.
(14:09):
And that's what this is inservice of.
And so my own personal stuffkind of becomes irrelevant, you
know, in the in the light of themission.
So I get my head on straight.
And then I go in and I reallyjust try to have a deep sense of
empathy for where they are.
Because as you said, listeningto them and being able to really
hear them on like a deep levelis something that I don't think
(14:32):
most people experience whenthey're talking to a service
professional, because mostpeople have like the box or the
funnel or the process orwhatever.
And I don't.
All my work is individual.
I design packages for everybodyI work with.
And I'm like, yeah, because Ithe level at which I am working,
your problems do not fit in abox.
You've if you're coming to me,you have something more complex.
(14:52):
And I know that you're reallysmart because you've already run
a business.
You're running this great,successful business.
And so if you can't solve thisproblem, it's a it's a weird
one.
And so, like the level at whichI approach the problems, I
think also shows people like,yeah, I'm serious about this.
You're not going to get thetypical, you know, tick the 10
boxes and then, oh, look, you'vegot marketing thing with me.
It's like, no, we're going tothink about it, we're going to
(15:13):
solve some really weirdproblems, and we're going to
grow some relationships.
Dr. William Attaway (15:16):
I love that.
You know, the the reality ishow you deal with people begins
with how you deal with yourself.
And I love that you've spentthe time doing the work to make
sure that you're bringing thehealthiest mindset and the
healthiest perspective as aleader that you can to your
clients.
And again, that's something Ihope our listeners are grabbing
(15:36):
onto because this is work thatyou can do no matter where you
are.
If you struggle with thingslike imposter syndrome, if you
struggle with shiny objectsyndrome, where you're just
chasing every new thing, thatreflects something going on
inside of you.
And you got to deal with that.
Because if you don't, you'regoing to carry it into every
conversation you have, everyrelationship that you have with
clients or prospective clients.
(15:58):
I love that you brought thatout, Rachel.
Rachel Allen (16:00):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, people can feelit.
And something, so I teach a uhworkshop about how to write
bios, and this often comes upbecause people have done really
amazing things, but they feelweird talking about them and
they feel like they're notallowed to really own them.
And so one thing that I tellthem, which is it's actually a
phrase from libel law, is justthe truth is an absolute
(16:21):
defense.
So if you did it, you can talkabout it.
And you don't have to make itsome sort of like giant thing,
like, oh, I'm the most amazingperson in the whole world who's
done all this thing.
But equally, it doesn't doanybody any favors if you say
something and then immediatelytry to back it down.
It just makes us feeluncomfortable.
So it's like, yeah, just saythe thing and let it stand for
(16:43):
yourself and for your clients.
Dr. William Attaway (16:45):
You know, you you often say that that 99%
of marketing advice that peopleget sets them up to fail.
Why do you say that?
Rachel Allen (16:56):
Uh well, because I've seen it fail, but because I
um I've done a lot of analysis,sort of like looking back on
projects I've done, projectsother people have done, and
trying to figure out why theyworked and why they didn't.
And what I realized is for asale to happen, you have to have
four factors all together.
And that's you have to have theright thing in front of the
(17:16):
right person at the right timeand in the right way.
And most of those factors youhave no control over.
But all the marketing advice ispredicated as though you had
control over all four of thosefactors.
And so it's like, well, youcan't control the timing at
which someone sees your post,but that means you probably
didn't do it right and there'ssomething wrong with you, and
you should just be in moreplaces.
I'm like, that's just cruel.
(17:37):
No one can be everywhere.
Well said.
Yeah.
I can't control time.
I would love to.
Be amazing, wouldn't it?
Right?
Dr. William Attaway (17:46):
No, that's really good.
I mean, focusing on what youcan control and understanding
that there are elements that youcan't.
I think that's realistic.
Rachel Allen (17:54):
Yeah, and I think something that so many people,
I've seen so many people just beheartbroken over and and leave
business over is this refusal toacknowledge that sometimes just
sheer luck plays into thisstuff.
Like sometimes of course hardwork matters, of course doing
your best matters, craftsmanshipmatters, but sometimes you just
hit something just right andfor whatever reason it takes
(18:16):
off, and there's no explanationother than you were there at the
right time in the right placeand it worked.
Dr. William Attaway (18:21):
Hmm.
That's good.
I like that.
You know, speaking of of thingsthat have circled around a few
times, and we seem to feel asense of deja vu with this one.
One thing we're hearing a lotin the field is that email
marketing, yeah, it's over.
It's dead.
No more need for that.
I mean, I've watched that comethrough a couple of times
(18:41):
through the station, right?
And now we're now we're hearingit again.
It's something that you talkabout.
Do you think that's true?
Rachel Allen (18:49):
I mean, if it's dead, I've got a real healthy
looking zombie.
So I mean, it's it's workinggreat for me.
That's excellent.
Dr. William Attaway (18:57):
Perhaps we're not doing it right.
Rachel Allen (18:59):
Or, you know, I think you know, the whole like
the standard sign up for my listand get this free PDF, which no
one wants and no one reads.
And then I'm gonna email youevery single week with uh what
are people, analysis insightsand helpful tips.
I do not want any of thosethings.
Nothing.
Do not give me more analysis.
If I want analysis, I will goand find it.
But some things that's great.
(19:22):
Well, some things that I amfinding are working well though,
is just it's you it's steppingaway from, I guess, traditional
like email marketing and thenusing the medium of email to
communicate in some reallyinteresting ways.
So one of my clients, she neveremails anything but a question.
She emails one really goodquestion to all of her clients
(19:43):
on a Thursday.
And it like it puts you in yourCEO mind space and you have to
like really think about it.
And so that's what she's like,look, at the level you're
working on, you don't needanswers.
You have answers.
You need somebody who canchallenge you enough to be like,
you know, I never thought aboutthat.
Shoot, what should I do?
And like, I have another clientor another friend who's doing
this brilliant marketingcampaign, which is somehow part
(20:07):
scavenger hunt murder mystery,but via email.
And people are going crazy forit.
And so people aren't tired ofemail marketing, they're just
tired of being treated badly.
Dr. William Attaway (20:17):
Man, I want to think about that.
That is that is really good,Rachel.
I I wow.
And again, I'm I and Jess said,you know, you know, the rest of
us are doing it wrong.
But maybe we are.
Rachel Allen (20:32):
Yeah.
I mean, I think I think thatthings are working right now are
in any kind of marketing, arepeople stretching the bounds of
what they previously thought aplatform or a medium could do?
So it's like, yeah, how can youget really weird with your
LinkedIn posts?
What can we do via email?
How can we use these tools thathave we've been taught to see
(20:52):
as doing one thing and break allthose rules and use them in a
totally different way?
Dr. William Attaway (20:58):
You know, I think about E.E.
Cummings.
Oddly when you say that, youknow, I I love to read E.E.
Cummings because he breaks somany rules.
Rachel Allen (21:06):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (21:07):
And and but you have to know the rules in
order to know how to break themwell.
And I think that's what he wasa master of.
Rachel Allen (21:13):
Well, absolutely.
Dr. William Attaway (21:14):
It sounds a little bit like what you're
talking about when it comes toemail marketing and other types.
Rachel Allen (21:19):
Yeah, because I mean, both of these people can
absolutely bang out a sevenemail nurture campaign.
They can do the newsletterthing, they can do whatever.
But it's just like they knowthat they don't want those
things in their inbox.
They don't read them.
And so now they're thinkingabout what what would I actually
voluntarily read?
What would I go into my inboxfor?
Wow.
That's a great question.
Dr. William Attaway (21:40):
You know, thinking about you as a business
owner, you know, you you haveto lead your clients and your
business at a higher level todaythan you did five years ago.
And that same thing is gonna betrue five years from now.
What are you doing to stay ontop of your game?
How do you level up yourleadership skills so that
(22:00):
they're gonna be what yourclients and your business need
them to be in the years to come?
Rachel Allen (22:06):
I love that question.
I think the first thing I readall the time, and whether that's
leadership books, businessbooks, but also fiction and all
sorts of crazy nonfiction, I'mright now just head down in a
book about the language ofcults.
So things that you would neverthink, yeah, it's really weird.
Things you would never thinkwould tie together, but I think
it all sort of comes intosynthesis, and then I'm able to
(22:27):
use that and develop in myleadership.
But also I put myself indeliberately challenging
situations where I know that I'mprobably gonna fail and I'm not
gonna do well, and it's thingsthat I'm not as naturally good
at because I learn things aboutmyself in seeing how I react to
that failure and how I react tothe new situation, and I can
always make a different decisionnext time.
Dr. William Attaway (22:49):
That's really good.
That continual learning postureis what I hear running through
that whole thing.
You know, as you read, as youare constantly taking in new
information, I'm curious, isthere a book that has made a big
difference in your journey thatyou'd love to recommend?
Rachel Allen (23:04):
Oh gosh.
Oh, there's so many.
I think uh the one I'll go withis Indirect Work by Carol
Sanford.
It's a teeny little book, veryuh very short, but she uh let me
think about how I want todescribe it.
It's such a it's such a uniquebook.
I'm I'm not even sure how to gointo it, but it's a business
book, uh, it's about leadership,and she takes the metaphor of
most of us think about affectingchange in the in a direct A to
(23:27):
B situation, right?
So she uses the metaphor of apool table.
If I hit the ball, that hitsthe other ball, and then I get
what I want.
And she's like, Yeah, but whatif you move the whole table?
Like, how can you in your workmove the entire table, which is
so much more effective?
So it's just a completelydifferent dimension of working.
Dr. William Attaway (23:44):
I've not heard of this book, but now you
have intrigued me.
I'll be picking that one.
That's really interesting.
Thank you.
Excellent.
Rachel, you know, uh peoplepeople look at you and they see
somebody who is like incrediblysuccessful with what she's
chosen to do, with the businessthat she's built over 17 years.
And I think that the naturalresponse sometimes is to say,
(24:05):
oh, wow, what amazing success.
Oh, Rachel has never struggledlike I struggled.
She's never dealt with theproblems that I deal with.
Because they're looking at yourhighlight reel.
Sure.
Right.
And that's so easy for us toall fall into.
We know the fallacy of that.
But in that spirit, I want toask you a question.
If I had the ability to snap myfingers and solve one problem
(24:26):
right now in your business, whatwould you want that problem to
be?
Rachel Allen (24:31):
So the flip answer is I would like to be able to
time travel and do more things.
But I think the real answer isI think about how I want to
phrase this.
I think the real answer is Iwould love to only do the things
that truly matter.
And I find myself caught up insmaller things, trivia, you
(24:53):
know, email admin, all that kindof stuff.
And I want to clone myself sothat somebody else can do it to
the level that I require.
Because I've never ever seenI've never found that in another
person that I've worked withyet.
Dr. William Attaway (25:04):
That's that's fantastic.
Now I had uh uh had a mentortell me once that if somebody
else can do something 80% aswell as you can, that you should
let them do it.
As a as a leader, as an owner,it's you should absolutely hand
it off.
And I really pushed back hardon that.
Rachel Allen (25:20):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (25:20):
And I said, 80%, are you joking?
That's a C.
Like, why would I let somebodydo C work on my team?
Like, come on, give me a break.
Like, no, that's not what wewant to do for our clients.
Wow.
And and he he said, he said,that's where they start.
And by the way, you startedwell below that.
And you grew to where you arenow.
(25:43):
Why would you not, as theirleader, give them the same
opportunity and equip andempower them to grow only with
you helping to guide thejourney?
And I I've I've never forgottenthat.
I thought, wow, that's so, so,so good.
Rachel Allen (25:59):
Feel that like in my chest.
I'm not gonna forget that evereither.
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (26:03):
It it landed so hard and it really has
challenged me ever since.
I mean, that was decades ago.
And it has challenged me eversince to to rethink how I do
that and how I look at that, thedevelopment of other people and
what I accept, because mystandards, like yours, are
pretty high.
80%'s not gonna cut it.
Rachel Allen (26:21):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (26:22):
But that's where they start.
And I just, you know, I I thinkthat's important.
It's helpful for me toreiterate that sometimes and to
remind myself of that.
And I hope our listeners areare hearing that as well,
because I think so often,particularly as high capacity,
high performance leaders, wehave very high expectations of
(26:43):
ourselves and of other people.
And that's good.
That's how we got to where weare.
But when it comes to mentoringand leading, it's very, very
important to right size thoseexpectations for the growth
journey of other people.
Just came to mind as you saidthat.
Rachel Allen (26:59):
I love that.
I love I feel like I'm gettingcoached.
This is wonderful.
I'm like, yeah, tell me my tellme how to solve my problems.
Dr. William Attaway (27:05):
That's why we help each other.
That's uh I have learned somuch today in this conversation.
And I'm so grateful for yourtransparency and your generosity
in sharing from some of whatyou've learned on your journey
so far.
I know our listeners are gonnawant to continue to learn from
you and learn more about whatyou're doing.
What is the best way for themto do that?
Rachel Allen (27:24):
They can find me at bolt from the blue
copywriting.com.
They can also connect with meon LinkedIn, or they can email
me like it is the ancient timesat hello at bolt from the blue
copywriting.com, and I willemail them back.
Dr. William Attaway (27:37):
I love it.
We will have those links in theshow notes.
Rachel, thank you truly fortoday, for this conversation and
for your generosity.
Rachel Allen (27:45):
Thank you so much.
I've so enjoyed this.
Yeah.
Wow, you ask an amazingquestion.
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