September 2, 2025 • 29 mins
Scaling your agency doesn’t happen by saying “yes” to every client that comes your way. In fact, that’s exactly what can keep you stuck in bottlenecks, overwork, and stalled growth.
In this episode, I’m joined by Wes Towers, founder of Uplift 360, where he helps construction companies grow through smarter websites and SEO. Wes shares his journey of building from the ground up, the costly lessons of chasing the wrong projects, and the pivotal decision to niche his company into construction and trades.
We talk about what it really takes to scale your agency in today’s environment: choosing the right clients, building trust and credibility, designing systems that sustain growth, and navigating the disruption of AI in SEO. If you’ve ever wrestled with burnout, bottlenecks, or the fear of turning down business, Wes’s story will help you see a different path forward.
Books Mentioned
- The E-Myth by Michael E. Gerber
You can connect with Wes and learn more about his work at uplift360.com.au. You’ll also find his LinkedIn link there to connect with him directly.
Join Dr. William Attaway on the Catalytic Leadership podcast as he shares transformative insights to help high-performance entrepreneurs and agency owners achieve Clear-Minded Focus, Calm Control, and Confidence.
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Ready to elevate your business? Book a free 30-minute discovery call with Dr. William Attaway and start your journey to success.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. William Attaway (00:00):
I'm excited today to have Wes Towers on the
podcast.
Wes is the founder of Uplift360, where he helps construction
companies grow through smarterwebsites and SEO.
He's learned the hard way,building his own business from
the ground up, making mistakes,getting his hands dirty, and now
he helps others avoid the samepainful lessons.
(00:24):
Wes, I'm so glad you're here.
Thanks for being on the show.
Thanks, william, fantastic tobe here.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation.
This is going to be fun.
Wes Towers (00:33):
Yeah, absolutely Got a few interesting things to
talk through.
It's an interesting time in theworld right now for business
and certainly my industry.
Intro (00:41):
So welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (01:01):
Well, I would love to start with you
sharing a little bit of yourstory with our listeners.
Wes particularly around yourjourney and your development as
a leader.
How did you get started?
Wes Towers (01:12):
I started.
Well, I started graphic designmultimedia in.
Well, I was at high school inthe 90s and so web design
development wasn't really athing back then.
But I had a creative um, uhliking, so, uh, I pursued that,
went to uni, got my first job ina Sydney company in the year
2000, in a marketing uh company,and they'd never designed a
(01:36):
website before.
So, uh, things have changed.
They were an award-winningmarketing company I've actually
found them.
They were in the award book andI called them because they were
doing wonderful work.
Got a job there and a fewmonths into the job as a
designer, they won a websitedesign to do and they said well,
(01:56):
you're the young guy, you'rejust fresh out of uni, you
better design us a website.
So I had no idea how to goabout it, but they were.
They were gracious in giving meplenty of time to fulfill that
project and from there I becametheir web guy.
And but I always had a passionfor business in itself, so it
(02:16):
was something that I alwayswanted to pursue.
So whilst working in thebusiness their business I was
always watching and trying tounderstand okay, how does all
this work behind the scenes?
And studying their business.
And they sold that bill.
They got bought out.
So I got to watch that wholeprocess of going through the
(02:37):
merger and going to the newcompany and watching as a young
guy, watching the differentleadership styles really as a
young guy, watching thedifferent leadership styles
really.
So I guess all of us modelourselves on what we've seen
successful in others, and so alot of.
Because I didn't study business, I didn't study leadership, I
studied graphic design,multimedia, at uni.
(02:59):
So I guess my leadership styleis a hybrid of what I observed
and what I liked in others, butalso just my own personality.
I think you lead with your ownstrengths.
So I'm a people person, so Ienjoy people, I like spending
time with all diverse types ofpeople.
So my leadership style, I guessyou would say, is relational.
(03:25):
That's how I go about life.
Dr. William Attaway (03:28):
I love that and I think it really keys into
something we talk about a loton the show, which is that true
catalytic leadership isleadership that sees people as
individual human beings, notjust as cogs in the machine.
It is relational and that's akey component if you really want
to make a difference as aleader.
Wes Towers (03:48):
Yeah, and just the nuance of different people and
the way they operate, and justto value and appreciate
different types.
I think, particularly now withAI, I mean we're going to have
AI as a superhuman, effectivelythe best of everybody collated
into one entity eventually.
(04:09):
But our human frailty is soappealing and it's got its own
beauty, I think, and if we don'tlose that through this process,
I think we'll achieve a lot.
Dr. William Attaway (04:23):
One of the things that you try to do at
Uplift360 is help constructioncompanies to stand out.
Why do you think that is such astruggle?
Wes Towers (04:31):
Yeah, so I don't know about everywhere in the
world, but we had a real boomtime so everybody in the
construction game was doingincredibly well and there was
more work than anyone couldhandle and really profitable and
all those sorts of things.
So no one really had to workhard to get work.
In fact, that could be picky.
Things have changed somewhatWhilst here in Australia there's
(04:55):
some construction work and alot of government-related jobs,
but there's other niches in theconstruction industries that
need to fight a little bitharder to get the work through
the doors and to remainprofitable.
So in those instances they'vehad to start thinking about who
they are as brands, what typesof work they want to market and
(05:19):
how they communicate um to them,to the marketplace, to attract
the to the right, right kind ofjobs, um.
So, yeah, it's a changing.
It's a changing landscape and Isuppose some of those learnings
that I've learned my own in myown way through through niching
my own business.
So I didn't start out.
I didn't start out.
Just niching is as, uh,construction based websites,
(05:41):
construction trades, tradies, aswe call them here in australia.
Don't know if you call themthat.
They're contractors and thosesorts of people.
I started out in graphic designmore broadly and then moved to
websites and then moved evenniched into the industries that
I serve, being construction andtrade and I think that's the
(06:02):
aspects of what I learnedthrough that process are helpful
for the construction companiesnow in just being able to
identify who their ideal clientsare so they can target them
specifically, because it's sonoisy out there and people are
so rushed for time.
So if you're trying tocommunicate too broadly, people
(06:23):
just miss your message.
But if you're really niched inand specific on who your ideal
client is, we go for them andthey'll be attracted because
your messaging will be spot onprecisely for them.
Dr. William Attaway (06:35):
So that's how it kind of works Well, and I
think that's one of the reasonsI talk all the time with agency
owners about the importance ofniching down, because then you
can dial in the messaging.
You know you can be for them.
I mean, as another guest on thepodcast, corey Quinn, said not
long ago, you know if you're foreverybody, you're really for
nobody you know, because yourmessaging is not going to
(06:57):
resonate and it sounds like youhave dialed that in so that not
only are you connecting withmessaging that works for the
niche that you work with, butyou're becoming better known in
that space for constructioncompanies.
Wes Towers (07:11):
Yeah, absolutely, and you get to pick up.
After a while working in oneniche, you get to learn what
their biggest needs are, anddrivers and what works for one
company might translatereasonably well for the next.
Now, every company will beslightly different but you kind
of pick up some.
you can get some quick wins forthem oftentimes and it's kind of
(07:32):
hard to as a small business tobut to compete with the really
big guys in our space who havegot multiple people, huge teams
who can sort of targeteverything, I'm never going to
beat those matter who I'm sortof pitching against.
If it's my niche, I've got areally strong and compelling
reason for them to use myservices because it'll be a
(08:06):
leader in the field.
Dr. William Attaway (08:09):
Well, and you become that expert authority
when it comes to constructioncompanies, and people see you
that way.
Wes Towers (08:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's been the best thing,but it was a scary thing too.
It was a scary journey in a lotof ways because it feels as
though you're cutting off lotsof opportunities.
I think that's the biggestreason.
Everyone's probably heard theyshould niche, but then when the
rubber hits the road and you'vegot to actually do it, it's a
(08:35):
scary thing.
Yes, I mean the way I didn'tcut off existing clients and
I've still got legacy clientsthat we serve because I've
served them for many years andthey're still happy.
But over the course of timeit's become more and more
construction, and that was by Ichose my niche almost by
(08:56):
accident.
I just got to a point where Irealized all my best clients
kind of looked the same.
They were kind of in the sameindustries.
They were the happiest.
So it's always a pleasure towork with happy clients because
they're getting great results.
And so, man, I want to live ahappy life and have happy
(09:16):
clients, because my life is muchbetter and their lives are much
better.
That's right, so it just allmakes sense.
Dr. William Attaway (09:23):
I love that and I get that scary aspect
because it does feel like you'resaying no to a whole lot of
business that could be yours.
Yeah, but at the end of the day, it's not a decision that you
regret, and I think that'simportant for our listeners, to
(09:45):
hear those who have not yet madethat decision, or who've been
thinking about it and know theyshould, but they haven't done it
yet.
I think your story is powerfulbecause you can illustrate hey,
this was scary for me too, but Idid it and I'm glad I did it,
yeah.
Wes Towers (09:54):
Yeah, On the flip side there's a kind of a horror
story of in my early days ofbusiness where I wasn't niched
at all and I took on a projectthat really was outside of our
skill set.
I had a tiny team back then butI took on a project for all the
(10:15):
wrong reasons.
It seemed to be like it wasgoing to be highly profitable,
but it wasn't really what we did.
But we did it anyway and Ipartially did it because my lead
developer at the time he waskind of getting a bit bored.
He was very advanced, He'd beenwith me for quite a while and
he was finding the work boring,for whatever reason.
(10:36):
So I thought, well, this willkeep him happy because it's
something new and engaging andexciting was a dating website.
It's nothing ever I've everdone before.
The problem with that was a fewdifferent things happened.
So the web developer who I knewwas unhappy to a degree or
bored um, he ended up leavingmid project and he was the one
(10:58):
who did all the scoping ofscoping of the job as well oh no
he's the only guy who had theskill set to get the job done
and it was the biggest job we'dever had ever won, oh my
goodness.
So man, I, I spent midnighthours, uh, figuring it out and
having to do a lot of it myself,which is not, but we got there
(11:19):
and the client was happy.
The client had no idea of thetorment it was causing me.
So I suppose that pain inrealizing, hey, it's better to
be really great at the fewthings that you do well and
don't try and deviate too faraway from that.
So lesson learned.
I mean, we finished the datingwebsite, she built the business
(11:43):
and sold the business.
So she did well and she washappy.
She had no idea of the tormentI lived through, not niching in,
not sticking to my lane.
Dr. William Attaway (11:51):
So, yeah, well, you know you, you bring up
, you know, focusing on a fewthings and doing them really
well.
You know, in the intro that Iread you know you guys focus on
websites and SEO.
Yeah, and I think that'ssomething that a lot of people
right now are trying to navigatethis season that we're in
(12:12):
around SEO, with the rise of AIand the disruption that that is
bringing and the disruption thatthat is bringing, do you still
see SEO as important, goingforward with AI really
disrupting search as it has been?
Wes Towers (12:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's a few different ways of
people are talking about it nowand different acronyms and all
that sort of stuff.
I'm going with the searcheverywhere optimization.
I think you had a guest on whosaid the same thing.
Yeah, yeah, I agree with thatphilosophy everywhere
optimization.
I think you had a guest on whosaid the same thing.
Yeah, I agree with thatphilosophy as well, because it's
(12:47):
handy, because we write SEO oneverything, so it's the same
letters.
I like it, but it really is.
People are using ChatGPT andthey're searching in entire
sentences or even paragraphs.
They're talking to theirChatGPT on their phone
requesting information.
The way I look at it is awebsite's still critical in that
whole process, because ifanyone's going to make a buying
(13:10):
decision, they're going to go tothe premises of the business or
go to the digital shop front,which is the website, before
they make an engagement.
Before they buy anything andparticularly for a higher-end
product, they're going to do afair bit of research.
So checking out the website tocheck the authority and the
(13:30):
authenticity of the company isreally critical.
There's a whole lot of wellthere's less traffic coming to
websites now because the answeris met on Google or the other
chat, gpt or the other AIplatforms.
So that's in the research phasewhere someone's starting to
look at their options andunderstand what it is to
(13:52):
research.
But once they need to hire acompany then they're still
visiting a website.
So that's proven in the statsthat we've got.
A lot of our clients have gotless traffic to the website per
se, but not less inquiries.
That's good, that's a gooddistinction.
Dr. William Attaway (14:10):
Sorry, go on.
That's a good distinction there, yeah.
The traffic versus the search,yeah.
Wes Towers (14:15):
Yeah, it's about managing that process and
explaining, and, and explainingit's and it's changing so fast,
you know.
So, um, it is, yeah, it'sexciting and terrifying in some
ways so well.
Dr. William Attaway (14:33):
I think there's a perception of the
construction industry inparticular that you serve as
kind of being behind the times,you know, not really keeping up
with the latest and greatesttechnologically, you know
whether it's you know websitesor email or heaven forbid SEO,
you know.
So why do you think thatperception is there first, and
(14:59):
what are you doing about thatwith the clients that you serve?
Wes Towers (15:02):
Yeah, so it can be a little different depending on
the client, because we'reprobably going for a slightly
bigger construction Well, notnecessarily huge, but big enough
that they've got a marketingperson at least, maybe not a
full department but someonewho's in charge of that
department.
So at least from thatperspective they're invested
(15:24):
into marketing to some degreeand so working through that
person so I'm their supportperson effectively to from the
technical standpoint, but justso they understand what's
happening because things arechanging so fast, and to support
where we need to.
So that's one aspect.
But you're right, when working,oftentimes I'll also be working
(15:47):
, because sometimes they'requite junior, those marketing
people within thoseorganizations.
So you'll be working with theguy who started the company, the
founder, and they've workedtheir way up from the ground up
on the tools.
So they're practical people,they build stuff.
They don't sit behind acomputer.
That's not their natural thingto sit behind a computer.
(16:12):
So I guess the key is to buildrelationships and trust with the
people that you're working withso that they learn to trust
what we're doing.
That's the key thing.
I think that's kind of helpful.
That's part of the reason whyyou need to niche, because you
really need to understand what'sin their best interest as well.
(16:33):
I mean, seo is not for everyclient as well.
Some of our clients win alltheir work from Tinder.
So, yeah, it's unnecessary forthem to be found on Google from
that level, because they're justdoing proposals.
Now they still need a greatwebsite because when they're
putting in a Tinder, they'relikely going to check out the
(16:54):
company from every angle, sothey're going to check out their
website.
So, yeah, sometimes just evenadvising, hey, seo is not
probably the best investment foryou.
Here's what we can do withinyour website to get the best
value for you.
I think that's important aswell.
Dr. William Attaway (17:13):
Well, and I think that again speaks to the
integrity you bring as theexpert in the field, and you can
say, hey, based on what I'veseen, based on what I know, and
looking at your uniquecircumstances in your business,
this is what I think is best foryou and what I think you don't
need to worry with right now.
Yeah, I think that's helpful,particularly with people who
don't have the expertise and thebackground in this, yeah, which
(17:34):
is a lot of your field.
Wes Towers (17:35):
Yeah, 100%, 100% your field.
Yeah, 100, 100.
It's, um, it's.
It's so much better to to umadvise clients away from a
service, um, because if you sellthem something that they don't
really need, well, they're goingto be unhappy and it just
creates problems down the downthe line.
I mean, most of our very bestclients still come from referral
(17:59):
or people who have transitionedfrom one company to the next.
You'll follow them around.
They'll keep you in their suiteof trusted advisors.
I suppose you would say so.
Your reputation is so importantthese days and you don't want
to damage it just for one sale.
That's very, very true.
Yeah, and that's wise and longsale.
Dr. William Attaway (18:18):
That's very , very true.
Yeah, and that's wise and longthinking.
You're playing the long game,yeah, Thanks.
Let me ask you, thinking aboutthe economic climate that we're
in right now you've mentionedthis already that things are not
as free-flowing and easy as ithas been in the past.
(18:39):
So I think building trust andcredibility have never been more
important in life.
How do you?
Wes Towers (18:48):
do that?
How do I build the trust?
Getting great reviews isobviously one of the strongest
things you can do and I justmake it a habit to.
I've built it into some of ourprocesses so they will get a
request from automated requestfor a Google review throughout
(19:10):
the process.
Oftentimes people forget that,but so you just gently remind
them and people like to helppeople so they realize I'm
running a small business.
I've got a strong relationshipwith my clients.
So when I say, hey, do you mindleaving a quick Google review or
something they generally will,so those sorts of things,
(19:33):
anything that anyone you knowyou can say the most positive
things about your own company onyour website and your socials
and all that kind of thing.
But once someone else says iton a platform that you can say
the most positive things aboutyour own company on your website
and your socials and all thatkind of thing, but once someone
else says it on a, on a platformthat you can't control or
manipulate, like Google reviews,um, that's, that's always the
most powerful thing.
So that, yeah, that's thereputation building.
Um, I, I.
(19:54):
I live in a reasonably smalltown here in just outside of
Melbourne, geelong, so youcouldn't survive in a town like
this doing a poor job?
I don't think as well.
So you know it's….
Dr. William Attaway (20:10):
Reputation matters.
Wes Towers (20:12):
Yeah, yeah, so that's for the local market.
I mean, not all our clients arehere as well.
We've got clients all overAustralia and even some
internationally as well.
But yeah, you know, reputationis the key.
Uh, you know, particularly withai and how things are going, so
anyone can quickly create amessage and, you know, publish
(20:36):
things so fast to build aperceived um authority.
But it's not until someone elsesays positive things about you
that it's authenticated, Isuppose.
Dr. William Attaway (20:48):
Yeah, that's really good.
So if you were starting Uplifttoday in the economy that we're
in right now, what would you dodifferently?
What's the biggest thing you'velearned that you would love to
go back and apply from the verybeginning?
Wes Towers (21:07):
you've learned that you would love to go back and
apply from the very beginning.
Yeah, so I think early on I wasa naturally shy kid.
That might surprise some peoplenow, because I'm just more
comfortable in my own skin, Isuppose.
But I suppose as a youngbusiness person I was a little
bit fearful in even makingcontact with people that you
(21:31):
know, businesses that I feltwere like really successful, or
people I was just scared to talkto people that I was really
impressed by.
But these days I would find away.
These days I would find a way ifI was starting again and I
could speak to my young selfback then I would just encourage
myself to be brave and torealize people are just people
(21:53):
and they've all had their ownjourney, even though they might
be older and more experienced.
I should have hung because Iwas confident in my skill set
and everything that I did.
I should have built myconfidence more so on that and
just not worried about sayingthe wrong thing or presenting
not too well or all those sortsof things that we worry about as
(22:16):
young people.
I think just starting andrealizing people are people and
no one's looking down upon me ifI say the wrong thing, you know
, that's really good.
Dr. William Attaway (22:25):
Yeah, I think that wrong thing.
You know that's really good.
Yeah, I think that's smart andthat goes to the maturity that
comes with leading something fora period of time.
Yeah, I think that's a reallysolid lesson.
Yeah, so, talking about yourgrowth and your development, you
know Uplift needs you to leadat a higher level today than it
did five years ago, and the samething is going to be true five
(22:47):
years from now.
So how do you stay on top ofyour game?
How do you level up with thenew leadership skills that your
business and your team and yourclients are going to need you to
have in the days ahead?
Wes Towers (23:01):
Yeah, really interesting.
So just a couple of days ago Idon't know might have been on a
YouTube I was watching.
I can't even remember who saidit, but they said how they were
talking to their chat GBT andjust were asking hey, you know
me really well, which it does,and it knows me well because I'm
always talking to it what aremy weaknesses?
(23:22):
And it kind of was reallyinsightful.
So I requested what are myweaknesses?
As a kind of was it was reallyinsightful, so said what, what I
requested, what, what are myweaknesses as a leader in in my
own business?
And it it gave me a reallyinteresting insight in saying
that I I may be too too wantingtoo much control, so still, um,
(23:45):
everything, nearly everything,not every minor detail goes
through me, but I'm on top ofevery project, so I project
manage everything.
So that's a real potentialbottleneck.
So so so it was great becauseit was so true, because it knows
me so well and it knows I likeI go through every contingency
and different strategy andeverything through the platform.
(24:08):
It sort of just hides me.
Okay, I've got to start buildingmore trust into the team
members I've got, because I knowthat they're great.
So I've got to find ways to.
I suppose maybe it looks backat that that that team, uh, that
(24:28):
leader I had previously who gotbored.
Maybe that was my fault becauseI didn't make a way for him to
transition to something greaterand I called it out too late and
I tried to solve the problemwith with uh with a solution
which it was too late and itwasn't the right solution.
So I've got to think about how Ilook after my team so that they
(24:51):
don't get bored, that theyremain engaged and they can grow
.
So those are the things I'vegot to look at and, particularly
with things evolving fast,there might be opportunities for
my team to remain so if I stayon top of the tools and the
techniques and the strategiesbut I find the right people to
grow into those new roles aswell, because there will be new
(25:13):
roles and there'll be redundantroles.
I believe in our industry.
I think that's.
I think they're key things thatI've got to look at as the
leader.
They're my responsibility.
Dr. William Attaway (25:23):
That's good .
Is there a book that you'veread that has made a big
difference in your journey thatyou would recommend to the
leaders who are listening?
Hey, if you haven't read this,it would be worth your time.
Wes Towers (25:34):
Yeah, I think the books I read early on were the
most insightful becauseeverything's kind of new back
then.
So the E-Myth, which waswritten Great book I don't know
how many times I read that, butI read it heaps of times,
(25:55):
probably, I don't know, four orfive times.
But just to solidify theconcept of having systems and
processes, because we're in acreative industry and my
persuasion, I guess, is thecreative.
So that can sometimes be lesspragmatic and practical and
process driven.
So a book like that was reallypowerful.
Just to think about how do wemake this a process.
(26:16):
So it's the same every time.
Now the, the design will lookdifferent every time, but
there's the, the order in whichwe get to that solution.
We follow the same process.
So it doesn't matter whichperson in the we get to that
solution.
We follow the same process.
So it doesn't matter whichperson in the team is working on
it.
They can pick it up anywhere.
And also, you know, someone'saway sick.
We did have someone away sickfor a couple of weeks.
(26:39):
It didn't matter from abusiness perspective because
someone else could just jump inand see precisely where it was
at and complete the process.
So that E-Myth wastransformational really, and it
was good that I read it so earlyon.
Dr. William Attaway (26:53):
That's such a great book.
Wes Towers (26:54):
I love that.
Dr. William Attaway (26:55):
Yeah, well, if I had the ability to snap my
fingers and solve one problemin your business right now, what
would you want that problem tobe?
Wes Towers (27:12):
Yeah.
So the problem is to see wherethe industry is going, the
future, the tools and thetechniques of the future.
Which is the future ishappening now.
It feels like it's justhappening so fast.
So that's the biggest challenge.
Right now, I feel like we'vegot a good stack of software and
(27:33):
techniques and tools andstrategies, but I could change
tomorrow.
It's just phenomenal.
So that's where I will need themost help and guidance.
Um, moving forward, I would say.
Dr. William Attaway (27:46):
Yeah, I think that's a great skill.
I would love to be able to givethat to you to be able to see
around the corner, and I thinkto some extent that is part of
senior leadership.
It's the fact that, as JohnMaxwell says so well, leaders
see more than other people see,and they see before other people
see.
We can, to an extent, see alittle farther down the road as
(28:11):
leaders.
Wes Towers (28:12):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (28:13):
But we can't see it all and there's
always going to be theunexpected.
And being adaptable andflexible and being able to
handle those things I thinkthat's part of the fun of what
we get to do, right?
Yeah?
Wes Towers (28:26):
I think that's part of the fun of what we get to do,
right?
Yeah, yeah, I think that's whatmakes an entrepreneur, isn't it
To be able to perceive thefuture and to see opportunity in
?
Dr. William Attaway (28:34):
that.
Yeah, To see what could be.
Yeah, absolutely.
Wes, I always love ourconversations and I'm so glad
that you were on the show andhave been so generous in sharing
some of what you've learned sofar in your journey.
I know our listeners are goingto want to stay connected to you
and continue to learn from youand more about what you're doing
(28:55):
.
What's the best way for them todo that?
Wes Towers (28:58):
Yeah, so the website would probably be the easiest
thing.
Uplift360.comau.
So I publish content to therefairly regularly, but also from
there you'll find the socialmedia links.
People can connect directlywith my personal LinkedIn as
well.
I accept everybody, and thatpersonal LinkedIn is on the
(29:19):
website as well.
Dr. William Attaway (29:20):
So yeah, uplift360.comau perfect, we'll
have those links in the shownotes great, excellent.
Wes thanks so much for yourtime today.
Thanks, it's been brilliant.
I'm excited today to have Wes Towers on the
podcast.
Wes is the founder of Uplift360, where he helps construction
companies grow through smarterwebsites and SEO.
He's learned the hard way,building his own business from
the ground up, making mistakes,getting his hands dirty, and now
he helps others avoid the samepainful lessons.
(00:24):
Wes, I'm so glad you're here.
Thanks for being on the show.
Thanks, william, fantastic tobe here.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation.
This is going to be fun.
Wes Towers (00:33):
Yeah, absolutely Got a few interesting things to
talk through.
It's an interesting time in theworld right now for business
and certainly my industry.
Intro (00:41):
So welcome to Catalytic Leadership, the podcast designed
to help leaders intentionallygrow and thrive.
Here is your host author andleadership and executive coach,
dr William Attaway.
Dr. William Attaway (01:01):
Well, I would love to start with you
sharing a little bit of yourstory with our listeners.
Wes particularly around yourjourney and your development as
a leader.
How did you get started?
Wes Towers (01:12):
I started.
Well, I started graphic designmultimedia in.
Well, I was at high school inthe 90s and so web design
development wasn't really athing back then.
But I had a creative um, uhliking, so, uh, I pursued that,
went to uni, got my first job ina Sydney company in the year
2000, in a marketing uh company,and they'd never designed a
(01:36):
website before.
So, uh, things have changed.
They were an award-winningmarketing company I've actually
found them.
They were in the award book andI called them because they were
doing wonderful work.
Got a job there and a fewmonths into the job as a
designer, they won a websitedesign to do and they said well,
(01:56):
you're the young guy, you'rejust fresh out of uni, you
better design us a website.
So I had no idea how to goabout it, but they were.
They were gracious in giving meplenty of time to fulfill that
project and from there I becametheir web guy.
And but I always had a passionfor business in itself, so it
(02:16):
was something that I alwayswanted to pursue.
So whilst working in thebusiness their business I was
always watching and trying tounderstand okay, how does all
this work behind the scenes?
And studying their business.
And they sold that bill.
They got bought out.
So I got to watch that wholeprocess of going through the
(02:37):
merger and going to the newcompany and watching as a young
guy, watching the differentleadership styles really as a
young guy, watching thedifferent leadership styles
really.
So I guess all of us modelourselves on what we've seen
successful in others, and so alot of.
Because I didn't study business, I didn't study leadership, I
studied graphic design,multimedia, at uni.
(02:59):
So I guess my leadership styleis a hybrid of what I observed
and what I liked in others, butalso just my own personality.
I think you lead with your ownstrengths.
So I'm a people person, so Ienjoy people, I like spending
time with all diverse types ofpeople.
So my leadership style, I guessyou would say, is relational.
(03:25):
That's how I go about life.
Dr. William Attaway (03:28):
I love that and I think it really keys into
something we talk about a loton the show, which is that true
catalytic leadership isleadership that sees people as
individual human beings, notjust as cogs in the machine.
It is relational and that's akey component if you really want
to make a difference as aleader.
Wes Towers (03:48):
Yeah, and just the nuance of different people and
the way they operate, and justto value and appreciate
different types.
I think, particularly now withAI, I mean we're going to have
AI as a superhuman, effectivelythe best of everybody collated
into one entity eventually.
(04:09):
But our human frailty is soappealing and it's got its own
beauty, I think, and if we don'tlose that through this process,
I think we'll achieve a lot.
Dr. William Attaway (04:23):
One of the things that you try to do at
Uplift360 is help constructioncompanies to stand out.
Why do you think that is such astruggle?
Wes Towers (04:31):
Yeah, so I don't know about everywhere in the
world, but we had a real boomtime so everybody in the
construction game was doingincredibly well and there was
more work than anyone couldhandle and really profitable and
all those sorts of things.
So no one really had to workhard to get work.
In fact, that could be picky.
Things have changed somewhatWhilst here in Australia there's
(04:55):
some construction work and alot of government-related jobs,
but there's other niches in theconstruction industries that
need to fight a little bitharder to get the work through
the doors and to remainprofitable.
So in those instances they'vehad to start thinking about who
they are as brands, what typesof work they want to market and
(05:19):
how they communicate um to them,to the marketplace, to attract
the to the right, right kind ofjobs, um.
So, yeah, it's a changing.
It's a changing landscape and Isuppose some of those learnings
that I've learned my own in myown way through through niching
my own business.
So I didn't start out.
I didn't start out.
Just niching is as, uh,construction based websites,
(05:41):
construction trades, tradies, aswe call them here in australia.
Don't know if you call themthat.
They're contractors and thosesorts of people.
I started out in graphic designmore broadly and then moved to
websites and then moved evenniched into the industries that
I serve, being construction andtrade and I think that's the
(06:02):
aspects of what I learnedthrough that process are helpful
for the construction companiesnow in just being able to
identify who their ideal clientsare so they can target them
specifically, because it's sonoisy out there and people are
so rushed for time.
So if you're trying tocommunicate too broadly, people
(06:23):
just miss your message.
But if you're really niched inand specific on who your ideal
client is, we go for them andthey'll be attracted because
your messaging will be spot onprecisely for them.
Dr. William Attaway (06:35):
So that's how it kind of works Well, and I
think that's one of the reasonsI talk all the time with agency
owners about the importance ofniching down, because then you
can dial in the messaging.
You know you can be for them.
I mean, as another guest on thepodcast, corey Quinn, said not
long ago, you know if you're foreverybody, you're really for
nobody you know, because yourmessaging is not going to
(06:57):
resonate and it sounds like youhave dialed that in so that not
only are you connecting withmessaging that works for the
niche that you work with, butyou're becoming better known in
that space for constructioncompanies.
Wes Towers (07:11):
Yeah, absolutely, and you get to pick up.
After a while working in oneniche, you get to learn what
their biggest needs are, anddrivers and what works for one
company might translatereasonably well for the next.
Now, every company will beslightly different but you kind
of pick up some.
you can get some quick wins forthem oftentimes and it's kind of
(07:32):
hard to as a small business tobut to compete with the really
big guys in our space who havegot multiple people, huge teams
who can sort of targeteverything, I'm never going to
beat those matter who I'm sortof pitching against.
If it's my niche, I've got areally strong and compelling
reason for them to use myservices because it'll be a
(08:06):
leader in the field.
Dr. William Attaway (08:09):
Well, and you become that expert authority
when it comes to constructioncompanies, and people see you
that way.
Wes Towers (08:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's been the best thing,but it was a scary thing too.
It was a scary journey in a lotof ways because it feels as
though you're cutting off lotsof opportunities.
I think that's the biggestreason.
Everyone's probably heard theyshould niche, but then when the
rubber hits the road and you'vegot to actually do it, it's a
(08:35):
scary thing.
Yes, I mean the way I didn'tcut off existing clients and
I've still got legacy clientsthat we serve because I've
served them for many years andthey're still happy.
But over the course of timeit's become more and more
construction, and that was by Ichose my niche almost by
(08:56):
accident.
I just got to a point where Irealized all my best clients
kind of looked the same.
They were kind of in the sameindustries.
They were the happiest.
So it's always a pleasure towork with happy clients because
they're getting great results.
And so, man, I want to live ahappy life and have happy
(09:16):
clients, because my life is muchbetter and their lives are much
better.
That's right, so it just allmakes sense.
Dr. William Attaway (09:23):
I love that and I get that scary aspect
because it does feel like you'resaying no to a whole lot of
business that could be yours.
Yeah, but at the end of the day, it's not a decision that you
regret, and I think that'simportant for our listeners, to
(09:45):
hear those who have not yet madethat decision, or who've been
thinking about it and know theyshould, but they haven't done it
yet.
I think your story is powerfulbecause you can illustrate hey,
this was scary for me too, but Idid it and I'm glad I did it,
yeah.
Wes Towers (09:54):
Yeah, On the flip side there's a kind of a horror
story of in my early days ofbusiness where I wasn't niched
at all and I took on a projectthat really was outside of our
skill set.
I had a tiny team back then butI took on a project for all the
(10:15):
wrong reasons.
It seemed to be like it wasgoing to be highly profitable,
but it wasn't really what we did.
But we did it anyway and Ipartially did it because my lead
developer at the time he waskind of getting a bit bored.
He was very advanced, He'd beenwith me for quite a while and
he was finding the work boring,for whatever reason.
(10:36):
So I thought, well, this willkeep him happy because it's
something new and engaging andexciting was a dating website.
It's nothing ever I've everdone before.
The problem with that was a fewdifferent things happened.
So the web developer who I knewwas unhappy to a degree or
bored um, he ended up leavingmid project and he was the one
(10:58):
who did all the scoping ofscoping of the job as well oh no
he's the only guy who had theskill set to get the job done
and it was the biggest job we'dever had ever won, oh my
goodness.
So man, I, I spent midnighthours, uh, figuring it out and
having to do a lot of it myself,which is not, but we got there
(11:19):
and the client was happy.
The client had no idea of thetorment it was causing me.
So I suppose that pain inrealizing, hey, it's better to
be really great at the fewthings that you do well and
don't try and deviate too faraway from that.
So lesson learned.
I mean, we finished the datingwebsite, she built the business
(11:43):
and sold the business.
So she did well and she washappy.
She had no idea of the tormentI lived through, not niching in,
not sticking to my lane.
Dr. William Attaway (11:51):
So, yeah, well, you know you, you bring up
, you know, focusing on a fewthings and doing them really
well.
You know, in the intro that Iread you know you guys focus on
websites and SEO.
Yeah, and I think that'ssomething that a lot of people
right now are trying to navigatethis season that we're in
(12:12):
around SEO, with the rise of AIand the disruption that that is
bringing and the disruption thatthat is bringing, do you still
see SEO as important, goingforward with AI really
disrupting search as it has been?
Wes Towers (12:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's a few different ways of
people are talking about it nowand different acronyms and all
that sort of stuff.
I'm going with the searcheverywhere optimization.
I think you had a guest on whosaid the same thing.
Yeah, yeah, I agree with thatphilosophy everywhere
optimization.
I think you had a guest on whosaid the same thing.
Yeah, I agree with thatphilosophy as well, because it's
(12:47):
handy, because we write SEO oneverything, so it's the same
letters.
I like it, but it really is.
People are using ChatGPT andthey're searching in entire
sentences or even paragraphs.
They're talking to theirChatGPT on their phone
requesting information.
The way I look at it is awebsite's still critical in that
whole process, because ifanyone's going to make a buying
(13:10):
decision, they're going to go tothe premises of the business or
go to the digital shop front,which is the website, before
they make an engagement.
Before they buy anything andparticularly for a higher-end
product, they're going to do afair bit of research.
So checking out the website tocheck the authority and the
(13:30):
authenticity of the company isreally critical.
There's a whole lot of wellthere's less traffic coming to
websites now because the answeris met on Google or the other
chat, gpt or the other AIplatforms.
So that's in the research phasewhere someone's starting to
look at their options andunderstand what it is to
(13:52):
research.
But once they need to hire acompany then they're still
visiting a website.
So that's proven in the statsthat we've got.
A lot of our clients have gotless traffic to the website per
se, but not less inquiries.
That's good, that's a gooddistinction.
Dr. William Attaway (14:10):
Sorry, go on.
That's a good distinction there, yeah.
The traffic versus the search,yeah.
Wes Towers (14:15):
Yeah, it's about managing that process and
explaining, and, and explainingit's and it's changing so fast,
you know.
So, um, it is, yeah, it'sexciting and terrifying in some
ways so well.
Dr. William Attaway (14:33):
I think there's a perception of the
construction industry inparticular that you serve as
kind of being behind the times,you know, not really keeping up
with the latest and greatesttechnologically, you know
whether it's you know websitesor email or heaven forbid SEO,
you know.
So why do you think thatperception is there first, and
(14:59):
what are you doing about thatwith the clients that you serve?
Wes Towers (15:02):
Yeah, so it can be a little different depending on
the client, because we'reprobably going for a slightly
bigger construction Well, notnecessarily huge, but big enough
that they've got a marketingperson at least, maybe not a
full department but someonewho's in charge of that
department.
So at least from thatperspective they're invested
(15:24):
into marketing to some degreeand so working through that
person so I'm their supportperson effectively to from the
technical standpoint, but justso they understand what's
happening because things arechanging so fast, and to support
where we need to.
So that's one aspect.
But you're right, when working,oftentimes I'll also be working
(15:47):
, because sometimes they'requite junior, those marketing
people within thoseorganizations.
So you'll be working with theguy who started the company, the
founder, and they've workedtheir way up from the ground up
on the tools.
So they're practical people,they build stuff.
They don't sit behind acomputer.
That's not their natural thingto sit behind a computer.
(16:12):
So I guess the key is to buildrelationships and trust with the
people that you're working withso that they learn to trust
what we're doing.
That's the key thing.
I think that's kind of helpful.
That's part of the reason whyyou need to niche, because you
really need to understand what'sin their best interest as well.
(16:33):
I mean, seo is not for everyclient as well.
Some of our clients win alltheir work from Tinder.
So, yeah, it's unnecessary forthem to be found on Google from
that level, because they're justdoing proposals.
Now they still need a greatwebsite because when they're
putting in a Tinder, they'relikely going to check out the
(16:54):
company from every angle, sothey're going to check out their
website.
So, yeah, sometimes just evenadvising, hey, seo is not
probably the best investment foryou.
Here's what we can do withinyour website to get the best
value for you.
I think that's important aswell.
Dr. William Attaway (17:13):
Well, and I think that again speaks to the
integrity you bring as theexpert in the field, and you can
say, hey, based on what I'veseen, based on what I know, and
looking at your uniquecircumstances in your business,
this is what I think is best foryou and what I think you don't
need to worry with right now.
Yeah, I think that's helpful,particularly with people who
don't have the expertise and thebackground in this, yeah, which
(17:34):
is a lot of your field.
Wes Towers (17:35):
Yeah, 100%, 100% your field.
Yeah, 100, 100.
It's, um, it's.
It's so much better to to umadvise clients away from a
service, um, because if you sellthem something that they don't
really need, well, they're goingto be unhappy and it just
creates problems down the downthe line.
I mean, most of our very bestclients still come from referral
(17:59):
or people who have transitionedfrom one company to the next.
You'll follow them around.
They'll keep you in their suiteof trusted advisors.
I suppose you would say so.
Your reputation is so importantthese days and you don't want
to damage it just for one sale.
That's very, very true.
Yeah, and that's wise and longsale.
Dr. William Attaway (18:18):
That's very , very true.
Yeah, and that's wise and longthinking.
You're playing the long game,yeah, Thanks.
Let me ask you, thinking aboutthe economic climate that we're
in right now you've mentionedthis already that things are not
as free-flowing and easy as ithas been in the past.
(18:39):
So I think building trust andcredibility have never been more
important in life.
How do you?
Wes Towers (18:48):
do that?
How do I build the trust?
Getting great reviews isobviously one of the strongest
things you can do and I justmake it a habit to.
I've built it into some of ourprocesses so they will get a
request from automated requestfor a Google review throughout
(19:10):
the process.
Oftentimes people forget that,but so you just gently remind
them and people like to helppeople so they realize I'm
running a small business.
I've got a strong relationshipwith my clients.
So when I say, hey, do you mindleaving a quick Google review or
something they generally will,so those sorts of things,
(19:33):
anything that anyone you knowyou can say the most positive
things about your own company onyour website and your socials
and all that kind of thing.
But once someone else says iton a platform that you can say
the most positive things aboutyour own company on your website
and your socials and all thatkind of thing, but once someone
else says it on a, on a platformthat you can't control or
manipulate, like Google reviews,um, that's, that's always the
most powerful thing.
So that, yeah, that's thereputation building.
Um, I, I.
(19:54):
I live in a reasonably smalltown here in just outside of
Melbourne, geelong, so youcouldn't survive in a town like
this doing a poor job?
I don't think as well.
So you know it's….
Dr. William Attaway (20:10):
Reputation matters.
Wes Towers (20:12):
Yeah, yeah, so that's for the local market.
I mean, not all our clients arehere as well.
We've got clients all overAustralia and even some
internationally as well.
But yeah, you know, reputationis the key.
Uh, you know, particularly withai and how things are going, so
anyone can quickly create amessage and, you know, publish
(20:36):
things so fast to build aperceived um authority.
But it's not until someone elsesays positive things about you
that it's authenticated, Isuppose.
Dr. William Attaway (20:48):
Yeah, that's really good.
So if you were starting Uplifttoday in the economy that we're
in right now, what would you dodifferently?
What's the biggest thing you'velearned that you would love to
go back and apply from the verybeginning?
Wes Towers (21:07):
you've learned that you would love to go back and
apply from the very beginning.
Yeah, so I think early on I wasa naturally shy kid.
That might surprise some peoplenow, because I'm just more
comfortable in my own skin, Isuppose.
But I suppose as a youngbusiness person I was a little
bit fearful in even makingcontact with people that you
(21:31):
know, businesses that I feltwere like really successful, or
people I was just scared to talkto people that I was really
impressed by.
But these days I would find away.
These days I would find a way ifI was starting again and I
could speak to my young selfback then I would just encourage
myself to be brave and torealize people are just people
(21:53):
and they've all had their ownjourney, even though they might
be older and more experienced.
I should have hung because Iwas confident in my skill set
and everything that I did.
I should have built myconfidence more so on that and
just not worried about sayingthe wrong thing or presenting
not too well or all those sortsof things that we worry about as
(22:16):
young people.
I think just starting andrealizing people are people and
no one's looking down upon me ifI say the wrong thing, you know
, that's really good.
Dr. William Attaway (22:25):
Yeah, I think that wrong thing.
You know that's really good.
Yeah, I think that's smart andthat goes to the maturity that
comes with leading something fora period of time.
Yeah, I think that's a reallysolid lesson.
Yeah, so, talking about yourgrowth and your development, you
know Uplift needs you to leadat a higher level today than it
did five years ago, and the samething is going to be true five
(22:47):
years from now.
So how do you stay on top ofyour game?
How do you level up with thenew leadership skills that your
business and your team and yourclients are going to need you to
have in the days ahead?
Wes Towers (23:01):
Yeah, really interesting.
So just a couple of days ago Idon't know might have been on a
YouTube I was watching.
I can't even remember who saidit, but they said how they were
talking to their chat GBT andjust were asking hey, you know
me really well, which it does,and it knows me well because I'm
always talking to it what aremy weaknesses?
(23:22):
And it kind of was reallyinsightful.
So I requested what are myweaknesses?
As a kind of was it was reallyinsightful, so said what, what I
requested, what, what are myweaknesses as a leader in in my
own business?
And it it gave me a reallyinteresting insight in saying
that I I may be too too wantingtoo much control, so still, um,
(23:45):
everything, nearly everything,not every minor detail goes
through me, but I'm on top ofevery project, so I project
manage everything.
So that's a real potentialbottleneck.
So so so it was great becauseit was so true, because it knows
me so well and it knows I likeI go through every contingency
and different strategy andeverything through the platform.
(24:08):
It sort of just hides me.
Okay, I've got to start buildingmore trust into the team
members I've got, because I knowthat they're great.
So I've got to find ways to.
I suppose maybe it looks backat that that that team, uh, that
(24:28):
leader I had previously who gotbored.
Maybe that was my fault becauseI didn't make a way for him to
transition to something greaterand I called it out too late and
I tried to solve the problemwith with uh with a solution
which it was too late and itwasn't the right solution.
So I've got to think about how Ilook after my team so that they
(24:51):
don't get bored, that theyremain engaged and they can grow
.
So those are the things I'vegot to look at and, particularly
with things evolving fast,there might be opportunities for
my team to remain so if I stayon top of the tools and the
techniques and the strategiesbut I find the right people to
grow into those new roles aswell, because there will be new
(25:13):
roles and there'll be redundantroles.
I believe in our industry.
I think that's.
I think they're key things thatI've got to look at as the
leader.
They're my responsibility.
Dr. William Attaway (25:23):
That's good .
Is there a book that you'veread that has made a big
difference in your journey thatyou would recommend to the
leaders who are listening?
Hey, if you haven't read this,it would be worth your time.
Wes Towers (25:34):
Yeah, I think the books I read early on were the
most insightful becauseeverything's kind of new back
then.
So the E-Myth, which waswritten Great book I don't know
how many times I read that, butI read it heaps of times,
(25:55):
probably, I don't know, four orfive times.
But just to solidify theconcept of having systems and
processes, because we're in acreative industry and my
persuasion, I guess, is thecreative.
So that can sometimes be lesspragmatic and practical and
process driven.
So a book like that was reallypowerful.
Just to think about how do wemake this a process.
(26:16):
So it's the same every time.
Now the, the design will lookdifferent every time, but
there's the, the order in whichwe get to that solution.
We follow the same process.
So it doesn't matter whichperson in the we get to that
solution.
We follow the same process.
So it doesn't matter whichperson in the team is working on
it.
They can pick it up anywhere.
And also, you know, someone'saway sick.
We did have someone away sickfor a couple of weeks.
(26:39):
It didn't matter from abusiness perspective because
someone else could just jump inand see precisely where it was
at and complete the process.
So that E-Myth wastransformational really, and it
was good that I read it so earlyon.
Dr. William Attaway (26:53):
That's such a great book.
Wes Towers (26:54):
I love that.
Dr. William Attaway (26:55):
Yeah, well, if I had the ability to snap my
fingers and solve one problemin your business right now, what
would you want that problem tobe?
Wes Towers (27:12):
Yeah.
So the problem is to see wherethe industry is going, the
future, the tools and thetechniques of the future.
Which is the future ishappening now.
It feels like it's justhappening so fast.
So that's the biggest challenge.
Right now, I feel like we'vegot a good stack of software and
(27:33):
techniques and tools andstrategies, but I could change
tomorrow.
It's just phenomenal.
So that's where I will need themost help and guidance.
Um, moving forward, I would say.
Dr. William Attaway (27:46):
Yeah, I think that's a great skill.
I would love to be able to givethat to you to be able to see
around the corner, and I thinkto some extent that is part of
senior leadership.
It's the fact that, as JohnMaxwell says so well, leaders
see more than other people see,and they see before other people
see.
We can, to an extent, see alittle farther down the road as
(28:11):
leaders.
Wes Towers (28:12):
Yeah.
Dr. William Attaway (28:13):
But we can't see it all and there's
always going to be theunexpected.
And being adaptable andflexible and being able to
handle those things I thinkthat's part of the fun of what
we get to do, right?
Yeah?
Wes Towers (28:26):
I think that's part of the fun of what we get to do,
right?
Yeah, yeah, I think that's whatmakes an entrepreneur, isn't it
To be able to perceive thefuture and to see opportunity in
?
Dr. William Attaway (28:34):
that.
Yeah, To see what could be.
Yeah, absolutely.
Wes, I always love ourconversations and I'm so glad
that you were on the show andhave been so generous in sharing
some of what you've learned sofar in your journey.
I know our listeners are goingto want to stay connected to you
and continue to learn from youand more about what you're doing
(28:55):
.
What's the best way for them todo that?
Wes Towers (28:58):
Yeah, so the website would probably be the easiest
thing.
Uplift360.comau.
So I publish content to therefairly regularly, but also from
there you'll find the socialmedia links.
People can connect directlywith my personal LinkedIn as
well.
I accept everybody, and thatpersonal LinkedIn is on the
(29:19):
website as well.
Dr. William Attaway (29:20):
So yeah, uplift360.comau perfect, we'll
have those links in the shownotes great, excellent.
Wes thanks so much for yourtime today.
Thanks, it's been brilliant.
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