ATM Receipts, Origami, and Unravelling Your Relationship With Money | Shannah Game | 123 - Catching Up to FI

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
I started to realize that.
Everyone shared the same sortof hang ups around money.
They were all stuck somewhere in thesame place, and that actually didn't
have anything to do with numbers.
And that was kind of my first aha.
But when I started to really havethis transformation or, unraveling
my own relationship with money, yeah,I could not look at ATM receipts.

(00:23):
I would fold them in origami shape,shove them in my wallet, and then
I just would never look at him.
And there was a moment when I thought,okay, this is ridiculous, but what I
recognize is that growing your wealthand money and it's not just about math.
It's not just about the numbers.
If it was, we would allhave this thing figured out

(00:46):
money is so emotional and that theseareas of a trauma and that might
feel like a big word for a lot ofpeople, but really just think of it
as some sort of, emotional pain ordistress or something that you feel.
Internally in your body when you interactwith money, like whether it's when
you're opening your bank app and youstart to get your heart starts racing,

(01:07):
or maybe you forgot to pay a bill onetime and your credit score dropped and
every time you go to pay a bill, youjust have this feeling of, Oh, my gosh,
this is going to happen to me again.
I'm a terrible, horrible person.
here's to the crazy ones, the misfits,the rebels, the troublemakers, the

(01:27):
round pegs in the square holes, theones who see things differently.
They are not fond of rules.
And they have no respectfor the status quo.
You can quote them, disagree withthem, glorify or vilify them.
But the only thing you can't do isignore them because they change things.

(01:49):
They push.
the human race forward.
And while some might see them as crazyones, we see genius because the people who
think they are crazy enough to think theycan change the world are the ones who do.

(02:37):
Hello, and welcome back to achilly catching up to five.
It's 11 degrees out there in Tennessee.
I don't know what it is in Dayton orin, well, I mean, what are, what is
the weather report out there, Jackie?
well, Dayton, it is single digits.
sounds like shoe sizesand not temperatures.
So last night we were negative one.

(02:58):
And right now we're aboutat, I think, six degrees.
So not looking so great.
And we are talking in January,although here in Ohio, we get
these cold temperatures probablythrough the end of March.
And I kind of wish I was inTennessee with you, Bill.
Well, I don't know.
It's not that much better.
Our little Koi pond is frozenand hopefully the fish survive.

(03:19):
And then Shannah Game, our guesttoday, she's out in Nashville,
North Carolina, and she survivedthe hurricane catastrophe.
How are you doing with the cold now?
You know, I'm one of those strange peoplethat actually really loves the cold.
Like, give me a day I can put on a jacketand a hat and some gloves and some,
shoes to big old boots and I am so happy.

(03:42):
So, I'm actually weirdlyenjoying 11 degree weather.
Oh, that's interesting because you hada long stint in LA where you grew up and
we'll probably get into some of that,but that's a reverse cold migration
because everybody else is moving toTennessee from the Midwest and from New
England, Jackie, who keeps talking aboutmoving to South Carolina or somewhere.
But she hasn't done it yet.

(04:03):
And then you did the reverse weatherarbitrage, I guess, and love it.
So That is very interesting.
I love Asheville.
It's a great town and we reallypray for their complete recovery.
I know you're undergoing that still.
I'm glad your house itself didnot suffer significant damage.
But as you said to us earlier, yourneighbors had a tree split their house.

(04:23):
Don't forget about ourAshevillians, Western North
Carolinians, Eastern Tennesseans.
And the fact that they're stillrecovering, we get out of the
news and media cycle, but thatdoesn't mean the trauma is over.
yeah, totally true.
So our audience is probably wonderingwho the heck we're talking to.
And it is a return guest Shannah Game.
She isn't your typical money expert.

(04:46):
She's a certified financial planner.
And a certified trauma of money specialistbehind the award winning podcast.
Everyone's talking money.
I love that podcast, Shanawith over 28 million downloads.
Should it, she's been around for awhile and she's got a lot of listeners
because it's such a good stuff.

(05:06):
So she is known for her no BS.
relatable advice, and Shannah has spent20 plus years helping people unravel their
messy money stories, crushing limitingbeliefs and build unapologetic wealth.
All that without giving up thethings that make life worth living.
Shannah first joined us on episode 57titled Crash, Money Trauma and Recovery.

(05:32):
We'll drop that in the show notes.
So her book, Unraveling your relationshipwith money is the ultimate guide to
breaking free from financial shameditching the hustle for less mindset
and creating a life that's bold,abundant, and authentically yours.
so glad you gave us an advanced copy.

(05:52):
It was awesome.
So Shannah, welcome back to the show.
Thanks so much for having me.
I, love this show.
I love everything that You both aredoing and I'm so thrilled to be here.
Well, what's interesting iswhen I read your book, Catching
Up to Fi made an appearance.
We were one of your top favoritepodcasts along with I think

(06:14):
Choose Fi and a few others.
And I was like, Oh my God, we actuallyexist and are in other people's material.
We're in Jackie's material.
We're popping up everywhere.
And you're going to be in there for,you know, as many copies of this book
that sells or however long you have thepodcast, whichever but yeah, I've really
wanted to highlight people that I thinkdo great work in this area of personal

(06:38):
finance and you both are really helpingpeople who have felt lost in this journey.
And so you're in great company.
Well, You were lost, and thing that'sinteresting that you talked about in
your book and sort of was a nidus foryour entire financial journey was that
you are a financial advisor that couldnot look at your own ATM receipts.

(07:00):
It was a major trauma for you.
How can that happen?
Tell us.
And this is sort of the nidus ofyour book in dealing with money.
As emotion and an ATM receipt,a lot of things in you.
Tell us about that.
Well, I'm a classically trained moneyexpert and I learned very early on.

(07:22):
I was working with my father when Ifirst started in this industry and we
were working with people who had, ahundred million dollars in assets in
these huge estates down to some of myfriends that were just starting out.
And I started to realize that.
Everyone shared the same sortof hang ups around money.
They were all stuck somewhere in thesame place, and that actually didn't

(07:44):
have anything to do with numbers.
And that was kind of my first aha.
But when I started to really havethis transformation or, unraveling
my own relationship with money, yeah,I could not look at ATM receipts.
I would fold them in origami shape,shove them in my wallet, and then
I just would never look at him.
And there was a moment when I thought,okay, this is ridiculous, but what I

(08:08):
recognize is that growing your wealthand money and it's not just about math.
It's not just about the numbers.
If it was, we would all have this thingfigured out that it's really about.
The emotions about the story, thebeliefs that you picked up from
childhood about all this gunk that getsin the way of you being able to use

(08:29):
those numbers right in the best way.
And so for me, when I would look atan ATM receipt, what would happen in
my head is I would start subtractingevery bill that I knew I had to pay.
And before I would say, even in likea second, I would have told myself
that I'm broke, that I can't pay mymortgage, that I'm, going to get my

(08:51):
house repossessed, that I'm going tolive on the street, like my brain would
do these crazy things around numbers.
And I started to think, okay,this is, this is ridiculous.
Like I'm a trained moneyexpert and this happens to me.
Imagine what happens to other peopleand then I would go and work with people
and see it played out in real lifeand that sort of was the metamorphosis

(09:12):
of, okay, let me see if I can figureout how to help people change this
and ultimately start with myself.
You know, it's interesting becauseyou talk about being stuck and
this is develop mentally stuck.
I mean, we all grow and develop.
But our development can arrest ourpersonal development, our personal

(09:33):
growth, our emotional developmentand our money development can arrest.
I arrested probably somewhere aroundbeing a teenager and was stuck there
until I was 50 years old and woke up tomy own money story, my own money traumas.
Why do you think?
We get stuck.
It's a really good question, Bill, and Ithink that there's so much that comes into

(09:55):
play that it's almost so hard to pinpointsomething exactly, but I think we grow up
with these beliefs around money of what wesaw our parents or whoever raised us, what
they did or didn't do, what they said ordidn't say, and those things become deeply
internalized inside of us without usreally being aware that that's happening.

(10:16):
So when we're moving through lifeand we're interacting with money.
Those kind of unconscious normsor beliefs or myths around money.
They're sort of playing automatically.
Like it's the good angel versusthe devil on our shoulder.
And they're kind of in this constant war.
And I think because alsowe don't talk about money.

(10:38):
We don't talk about the things thatmaybe we've done wrong or that we're
feeling, stuck in a particular areabecause, you know, Admitting that would
mean that we don't know what we'redoing and I think that's something
that a lot of us struggle with.
I know that's something Istruggled with a lot is this idea
of perfectionism around bunny.

(10:58):
So if you admit, oh, I went over budget oroh, I've not saved for retirement yet that
somehow that's a reflection of who you areas a human being versus No, just numbers.
That's just something we haven't,planned for yet or taking an account.
And so I feel like there are so manylayers to the onion to kind of taking that
apart to figure out why we get stuck here.

(11:21):
But I think ultimately,somehow we've attached.
The amount of money in our bankaccount with who we are as humans
and for a lot of us that comes withthese like deep emotions and traumas
and fears and, comparison and allthese areas that, for each of us,
they're different, but they, kind ofcollectively keep us stuck in that place.

(11:45):
Yeah, it's interesting because there'sa book and you may be familiar with this
and we're going to try and have thisauthor on the show called The Seven Stages
of Money Maturity by George Kinder, whois the grandfather or godfather of life
planning, and there are stages That we gothrough in our relationship with money,
who in many ways, according to your book,it's like a person, it is a relationship.

(12:08):
It's like a living, breathing emotingperson and not just a piece of paper.
So, these stages that we go through we canget arrested just like Maslow's pyramid.
It's probably a similarkind of analogy there.
Jackie, what do you think about thisgrowing up through stages of money or
our relationship with that person money?

(12:29):
I mean, for me, I've thought about thisa lot and part of my program when I was
at Kansas State was financial therapy.
So I just learned a lot about myself.
I think I've come out of a lot of shameand being stuck and my way of doing it.
Was to be public about a lotof stuff and be transparent.
That was my way of doing it.

(12:49):
And when I'm talking with people,I always reassure them that
they don't have to do that.
That might not be their way.
So for me.
What helped me kind of move through someof that stuff was just openly sharing
it, not holding in the shame or theembarrassment or anything like that.

(13:11):
So that's kind of my take on it.
And I did have a question Shannah, thecertified trauma of money specialist.
Can you explain to us what that is?
I think we've kind of gathered from alittle bit of this discussion already,
but tell us about what that is.
It's a relatively new specialized areain money, but what it really looks at is

(13:35):
this idea of trauma, where trauma comesfrom and how to, become aware or diagnose
trauma, if you will related to money.
And then, some ways ofmoving through this trauma.
So it's really just an understanding that,
deeper understanding, I would saythat money is so emotional and that

(13:56):
these areas of a trauma and that mightfeel like a big word for a lot of
people, but really just think of itas some sort of, emotional pain or
distress or something that you feel.
Internally in your body when you interactwith money, like whether it's when
you're opening your bank app and youstart to get your heart starts racing,
or maybe you forgot to pay a bill onetime and your credit score dropped and

(14:20):
every time you go to pay a bill, youjust have this feeling of, Oh, my gosh,
this is going to happen to me again.
I'm a terrible, horrible person.
Or it could be something like, youknow, you grew up in poverty, right?
And there was a real stress around money.
But for a lot of people, itcould also be the reverse.
It could be actually growing up in awealthy family, and maybe you feel some

(14:45):
emotional pain around an idea of greed,or you feel some separation from that.
So it can come from alldifferent directions.
So this certification is really justa deeper understanding that there
is this thing called trauma aroundmoney and that for a lot of us, we
just don't know how to recognize it.

(15:06):
But what I like to say isit's, it's really about what
we're talking about here.
And your, your question bill thatyou asked, it's these stuck areas.
So for me, I like to think about it.
We're standing on one side of a bridge.
And we want to get to the other side ofthe bridge right to reach our money goals,
but we just can't seem to get there.
So the study of money trauma and theemotional side of money is looking at.

(15:27):
What is that piece emotionally?
Right?
That's keeping us.
Ricocheting us back to , the sideof the bridge that we're on when we
really want to get to the other side.
So it's, it's a deep kind ofunderstanding and helping people work
through what the heck is going on.
So that we have sort of a free flow.
state a money goal thatwe want to achieve.

(15:48):
We can attach good thoughtsand emotions around that.
And we can practically moveday by day closer to that.
That's my goal.
Goal for people, I
go underground, stick their headsin the sand because of trauma
and not want to deal with it.
But then when they wake up, the firstthing they want to do is take action.

(16:09):
And in some ways that is actuallythe wrong thing to do, in many ways.
That is the wrong thing to do.
And what you say in your book is, youknow, stop right there, pause, don't
just take action to try and fix theproblem because you're so scared that
you got so much time to make up, pauseand understand your relationship.
To the problem to money.

(16:30):
Where did this come from?
Dig into it.
That's where the therapy part comes in.
And one of the things that I thinkyou talk about in the book that I
found very helpful is you sort ofreiterate Brad Klontz's work on
money scripts and money stories.
And you use some terms thatI found very interesting.
And we should go through each ofthese because we have different

(16:51):
terms, Money, scripts and stories.
And we may have pieces of each ofthese, but there's essentially four.
And I'll take us throughyour names for these.
You use the term nightingale,lion, turtle, and wolf.
That sounds so alluring.
Tell us who these people are.
Who's the nightingale?
Who's the lion?

(17:11):
love likening money scripts to animalsbecause I feel like it's a reference.
We can kind of put ourbrains around a little bit.
And so that was my purpose oftransforming them in this way.
So the nightingale is somebody whois always nervous around money, just.

(17:32):
You know, it's simmering likeright there and I explained
the Nightingale in this book.
I talk about a lot of personalstories because I want people to
understand that we're all similar.
And so I openly share my storyand other people's stories.
So the Nightingale is a lot like myhusband who just grew up in a family where

(17:53):
money was Always this bone of contention.
There was always something aroundmoney happening, whether it was,
you know, houses being you know,repossessed or having to move
or just all sorts of things.
And so anytime something aroundmoney comes up, he just feels
this sense of unease, right?
So that's a nightingale.

(18:13):
And the lion is actually what Iam, which is completely opposite.
Think of the lion as likea go big or go home, right?
You're kind of shooting forthe fences, you take maybe more
risk on when it comes to money.
And the lion is not so good always withthe little details, where the nightingale

(18:35):
might actually be better with thoselittle details, but not so good on
taking risks are kind of the big picture.
Then we have the turtle, which just as itsounds right, turtles are slow and steady.
They want to do research.
They want to have a plan.
They're just going to move ina much slower progress than
any of the other money types.

(18:55):
But where the turtle gets stuck isthey're okay with risk, but they really
are just Really slow to get there.
So the turtle might be somebody that,you know, opens their investment account,
but maybe they keep a lot of theirmoney in the, you know, the money market
front because they're just like, Oh, Idon't, you know, I'm just going to go

(19:17):
slow and stay, maybe take a little pieceand invest it and then a little piece.
Right?
And then we have the wolf, which Iactually don't find a whole lot of wolves,
but they're the type of people that theywant to read all those articles about,
like, how much money should I have savedat, you know, age 40 or age 50, and
they set these big goals, but the wolfgets stuck sometimes in overanalyzing

(19:39):
of saying, well, okay, if I'm supposedto, you know, have, I don't know, 2
million invested by age 50, I coulddo it this way, or this way, or this
way, or this way, or this way, and thenthey sometimes take inaction, right?
So they have these big lofty goals, butsometimes they get a little mixed up.
So, I love thinking about these typesin terms of thinking about, like,

(20:00):
what are you, just kind of innately,what do you resonate more innately?
But, but know that they're just,Used almost as a launching point
because I think we all need tounderstand more of our money
strengths and then our, you know,whatever our blind spots and be okay.
Just like you were saying, Jackie,like talking about things like talking
about, like, this is sort of a weakness.

(20:23):
For me around money.
Maybe I need a mentor.
Maybe I need to read some books orlearn a little bit more about that.
But these are the thingsI do really great.
So let me see how I canplay into these things.
I do really great and find something tohelp me with some of these weaknesses so
that I can, you know, marry it together.
So, as far as these moneystories and money scripts.

(20:43):
So if, for the people that arefamiliar with Dr. Brad Klons,
so his four was avoidance.
And you put them in much easierterms like, you know, the animals
and I, I kind of like that.
And I can, I feel, I, I always feltthis even with Dr. Bragg classes, but

(21:03):
the animals that you mentioned, I feellike I'm a little bit of a mix of each
of those, but certainly, you know, thoseare the, animals that you mentioned.
type of personality orscripts that exist out there.
I mean, the funny thing about theseis I think the FI community would
say that most of them are turtleswith a little bit of lion and but
the turtle, the slow and steady winsthe race is sort of the FI community.

(21:26):
They're vigilant about money and if you'reborn that way, whether you're a turtle or
a lion, you're going to get there for me.
I resonate with your husbandas a nightingale in a way.
I mean, I was in an avoidance mindsetfor so long and we migrate between these.
we're sort of a casserole of all fourof these things, if we can use the food

(21:47):
analogy in addition to the animal analogy.
But I resonate now more withvigilance and a little bit of worship.
I've never really resonatedwith the lion or the status.
Money script that just hasnever really been me very much.
I've migrated from, and these arealmost like you move through them, and
there's sort of growing up through them.

(22:08):
I think in some ways the turtle isprobably the peak or the animal
that wins the race of these four,and that's where we sort of all
want to get and have a little bit ofthe rest of them in our repertoire.
What do you think?
Yeah, I would agree with you because,if we look at somebody who, started
investing right when they were in their20s, and maybe they started investing with

(22:30):
a really small amount of money, right?
This kind of turtle mentality, right?
If we fast forward to 50or 60 years old, right?
They potentially due to compounding couldhave gobs of of money in their retirement.
Right?
Where for me, I wish I had more of theturtle mentality when I was in my 20s.
For me, I was like, no,I'm going to do these.

(22:52):
I was always been an entrepreneur.
I'm going to swing for the fences.
And sometimes that swingingfor the fences means.
You don't allocate money incertain directions, right?
You're kind of waiting for like the bigthing or the big hit, but yeah, I think
if we could adopt a little bit more of theturtle mentality with the understanding

(23:13):
that we also sometimes need to maybe adda little bit of risk in there, right?
In order to grow, butthat's slow and steady.
It does, mathematically,at least it does win.

(25:08):
Yeah, it sounds like it's kindof like these phases, like that
Nightingale you're talking about.
Early on, a lot of us might notthink about our money and just, not
want to talk about it or whatever.
And then we kind of movethrough each of these phases.
And there would be a good thing, likeBill was saying, at moments in his life,
he was a certain one, and now , he'smore different, more like the turtle.

(25:28):
think most of the five people are kindof like the turtle, where they know
you're not going to get rich overnight.
It's going to take time, but youwill win the race if you follow
either the JL Collins or some ofthese things that are out there.
this put things in a very nice context.
Alright.
it seems like our late starters maystart as a nightingale, and then

(25:50):
they move towards a turtle, and thenmaybe they take on a little bit of
a lion, but in some ways, you reallydon't want to end up being a wolf.
And this is the one that I hadthe hardest time understanding
this money worship wolf.
And why do you say you don'tsee that many wolves out there?
I think that there are plenty of wolves,but I think, more of us tend to oscillate

(26:16):
between nightingale, lion, and turtlesomewhere in that neck of the woods.
I think there's always some degree ofAnd I don't want to use the word worship.
I mean, because a lot of peoplethat sounds really negative, but
for a lot of us, there could be anelement of that, but I see people

(26:36):
primarily being anxious around money.
Really slow and steady, not wanting totake on a lot of risk, or the person
that's just trying to take on all therisk, is really the, three that I tend
to see most people oscillate between.
And I don't really know whythat is, I just, you know, from
interacting with people and theirmoney, that's typically what I see.

(27:00):
Okay, well, there's a lot of otheranimals out in the world, too.
It is a Noah's Ark, Okay.
Many steps and many, well, these aren'tjust the only four, but these are the
common threads that both you and Dr. BradKlontz see in all of our stories, and
we would do well to read their research.
I think Brad Klontz has great books outthere on this because you, as we started

(27:21):
with, You shouldn't just take action.
You should figure out your money trauma.
You should figure out your moneyscripts before you take action.
And you talk about unwinding your moneybeliefs and where did they come from?
And one of the things you use to get outof the animal analogy is the money pie.
You move on into food and talk abouta money pie with regards to this.

(27:43):
And this is really rooted incognitive behavioral therapy,
which people may not understand.
So if you could take us through Thank you.
What cognitive behavioral therapyis and how you use the money pie to
help understand these money scripts.
Yeah, as you can tell Ilove good analogies, right?
So I love food.
I love animals.
So I'm always bringing them into mywork Cognitive behavioral therapy

(28:06):
is just a modality of therapy Thatreally looks at your thoughts being
the primarily Indicator right ofthe different actions that you take
in life and so really starting toUnwind, what are your thoughts?
Where do they come from?
Are they positive?
Are they negative?
What are they telling you?

(28:27):
I don't remember the number,but it's something crazy.
Like we have, is it 70,000 thoughts per day?
Or it's something, it maybe more than that bill.
You're the doctor.
You might know better than me, but
It's in your book.
Read the book.
it's an, it's an insaneamount of thoughts every day.
So, The money pie takes this,modality of behavioral therapy and

(28:52):
looks at what is the motivatorsbehind us taking action, right?
And specifically around money.
So for me, there's abit of a hierarchy here.
If we look at our thoughts, likewhat are we thinking around money?
Those influence our feelings.
So if our thoughts are, I'm bad with moneyor I haven't saved enough or I'm never

(29:13):
going to be able to retire or whateverthat might be right that might create a
feeling of shame of judgment, fear fillin the blank with whatever word feels like
a good feeling for you or most accurateand then that influences your actions.
So if you're feeling shame,fear, judgment around money.

(29:33):
And usually you're not going to take theactions that you need to to change that.
So then those actions influencepatterns and behaviors, right?
So we're looking at this idea of like,how do we get across this bridge to
the place that we want to get to?
That really involves patterns andbehaviors around money, which also
includes your thoughts, right?

(29:53):
So if you're thinking.
All right, it's not too late for me.
I can save for retirement.
I can do it.
I can start today.
I'm worthy of this.
I can make this happen.
I don't have to be stuck in shame.
Maybe your first action aroundthat healthy thought is, Let me see
if I can put, $ 100 a week in myretirement plan, whatever it might be.

(30:16):
Right.
It could be just raising your 401kpercentage could be absolutely
anything with that action.
You're going to start going.
Okay.
Let me create a behavior around,let me make this the norm, right?
That starts to then change yourthoughts and feelings around money.
So it starts to become this action.
I think of it like a pie, like we'restacking up ingredients, right?

(30:37):
We want to create a delicious pie.
We've got to have the foundation,which is our thoughts.
And then we kind of build it up, right?
So it's super yummy and tasty.
So this starts with thisidea of what you're thinking.
About money and most of us areprogrammed to think negatively About
our situation around money and thatinfluences this whole kind of cascade

(31:02):
That ultimately creates change
Yeah.
I mean, you added the patternsand behaviors to this.
This is really great because it goesback to is it Cal Newport's atomic
habits or something like that?
I think he's the one that wrotethat, but thoughts become behaviors,
behaviors become actions, actions.
Create patterns and patternsbecoming green behavior.

(31:24):
This is really unwinding thatneuroplasticity that we have.
This has to do with whydon't I exercise every day?
How do I start unwinding this?
Okay, I need to go for a walk before Ican run before I can do the next thing.
But it's really hard to unwindthese things and get back to
the beginning of the money pie,one of the ways I think you.

(31:44):
Use to illustrate this money pie inthe book was you have a dear friend,
Cassandra, and she came to you one dayat lunch with sort of a money dilemma.
I think she was thinking about quittingher job and you took her through
this on the, backside of a napkin.
Can you tell us a little bit abouther story and in order to illustrate
this concept of the money pie?

(32:07):
Yeah it's been a while since I'veread my book, so Let me, let me do
my best to paraphrase , her story Butyeah, she came to me and She said, you
know, I really want to quit my job.
there's something else that I wantto do in life, but I'm terrorized
because I, I've been brought up in afamily where you don't quit your job.
Like, you just don't do it.

(32:27):
It doesn't matter whetheryou hate it or not.
You just don't do that, right?
And she had kind of a back story.
She had parents that , would say things toher like, you make a really good income.
Like, a lot of people don't do that.
Why in the world would you give that up?
And she could not let this ideago of she really felt it was time

(32:48):
to leave this job and she wasbeing called to something else.
So, On the napkin, I just worked throughthis money pie with her and I went, okay,
let's look at your thoughts around this.
What is influencing your quittingyour job or not quitting your job?
Right?
What are those feelings and those actionsand pattern behaviors around this?
Can we rework this in a way?

(33:09):
And what she moved through is sherealized that a lot of the thoughts
and feelings around this were not hers.
Right.
They were her parents.
They were her siblings.
They were borrowed from other people.
And when we got down to, you know, Ikept diving down and put, what are yours?
What are yours?
Let's look at yours.
Let's figure out yours.
And we got to the place where,her thoughts around money

(33:29):
were that she really felt.
Money was abundant everywhere and thatif she was following her skills and what
she was good at and what she was feelingcalled to that she wouldn't have to worry
about letting go of that paycheck becausea new paycheck would come in and that
created a feeling of strength for her ofAvailability to try something else and so

(33:56):
she ended up leaving her job and startingher new career and she's now abundantly
far more successful than she was.
Previously in her W two corporatejob, but it really took a process
for her to separate out what were heractual feelings and thoughts about

(34:17):
this and what was, the things thatwere programmed into her so that she
could find a place to feel good about.
Making a decision for herself.
And I think that's really importantprocess that a lot of people get
stuck is are thinking our thoughts andfeelings actually don't belong to us.
They belonged to somebody else.

(34:38):
And so it's really creating like ourown, dictionary of thoughts and feelings
around money and life and values andcircumstances that ultimately help us make
bigger, better actions, which create thepatterns and behaviors that support that.
Yeah, Cassandra's story totallyresonated with me, and that is why
the work you do is so important toseparate the influences that were in

(35:04):
her life and how they were thinkingto how she could think independently.
And I grew up in poverty andeverybody around me, my dad's been
gone for a long time, but I knowhe would be saying the same thing.
And.
I just remember when I wrote my letterof resignation when I was retiring, I

(35:24):
put something in there about some may sayI'm giving away the golden ticket and I
know my dad would have thought like that.
That was thinking from how I grew up.
And once I got exposed to other things.
My thinking changed and I becamemore independent and allowed myself

(35:45):
to think like, Cassandra did.
And so, cause it took a lot forme to, actually retire from my
job and give up that good paycheckand the benefits and move on.
So the advice I try to give to peopleand tell me if this is kind of like
part of what you did with Cassandrais to expose her to different things.

(36:06):
Because.
I notice a lot of people, if theystay in the neighborhood or stay
in the same community they grew upin, they never think differently.
But if you, let's say you go to collegeor you go into the military, and
you're all of a sudden in a differentenvironment, you're seeing different
things, and now your mind is starting toopen up and say, wow, there's other ways.

(36:27):
So it was very inspiring for meto hear you share Cassandra's
story, and I felt it, you know, itseemed like it was a lot like mine.
Yeah, and I think Jackie, what you'resaying there is, is so important, right?
I think of it like an expansion, right?
It's an expansion of rather than justkind of stuck in these, like, Hard beliefs

(36:49):
that we have, like when we go through thisprocess and we can have expansion, like
it allows for space to change our mindsto think about something different or even
just to give yourself a permission slip,just like you did, you've now created
like a movement behind this and the showand you know, you're a part of this.
And I think that's so great.
Like, we don't know where the roadtakes us, but Allowing ourselves to have

(37:13):
that exploration, I think, , is so key.
Yeah, and what's interesting is folksin our audience, remember, we're
talking to certified financial planners.
And when you're looking forone, the conversations you
need to have are these first.
It's not the how, the action, themoney, because that overlooks all the
important stuff to get to get you toingrain it into a pattern of behavior.

(37:39):
If you just take what are your goals,dreams, goals, Where do you want to be?
Okay.
Let's build that bridge as youtalk about it with the numbers
and the money to get you there.
But, if a number is the goal or the dream,then you can build the numbers to do so.
But you're overlooking, you know, 80percent of the iceberg under the surface.
Right.
Yeah, and this is what I'm, sopassionate about this and it took me

(37:59):
a long time to really embrace that.
This was the space that I was beingcalled to talk about and to really
showcase because I came from a world ofthe traditional financial planning, right?
And I feel it's really sad for methat that is left out of the equation

(38:20):
when we're talking about creatingsomebody's financial plan because it's
so much more than just the numbers.
I can hand you a 50 pagefinancial plan with the numbers.
In two months, you're probably going tocall me back and say, this doesn't work.
Right.
And so this doesn't work.
Isn't a function of the numbers.
It's a function about all of thethings that we're talking about,
the patterns, the beliefs, thebehaviors, the relationship, the

(38:42):
trauma, the shame, that all of thisstuff that's underneath the hood.
And so, I feel as, a certifiedfinancial planner, like my job
is to highlight that this needsto be a part of the conversation.
I'm never saying that numbersare not important, but numbers.
Have to be paired with the emotionsaround money, or it doesn't work.

(39:05):
And there are so many scientificstudies around, when we state a goal
or resolutions, why those don't work?
Well, it's because there isn'tthis powerful why behind it.
There isn't this emotion, right?
That we deeply mesh and attach to it.
And that's really whatwe're talking about here.
And I think it's easy to just.
Brush over this stuff and to say,well, this doesn't matter, right?

(39:27):
Give me the plan of how I, retireearly, like give me that plan, right?
But that plan needs to alsoinclude the emotional piece.
That to me is sort of like thesecret decoder ring to help that
retirement plan really come to life.
Yeah.
I mean, the goal isn't a number.
The goal is say, I want to be free.

(39:48):
The goal is I want my time.
I want it back.
Okay.
What number gets us there?
it's not.
I want 5 million andthat will make me free.
just like Warren Buffett's sidekick,Charlie Munger, invert the question.
And we need to invert the question.
We kind of asked it.
So what's the numbers, if you don'tinvert it, one over the numbers is the
emotion, the goal, the why invertingthe numbers gets you to the substance

(40:12):
of what we're talking about today.
And one of the things that people,Jackie, we threw a question out into
our audience in the Facebook community.
One of the things you talkabout is money secrets.
And these are part of our shameand what we hide from the world.
And if we come out into the worldwith our secrets, not only do we help
ourselves because we've processed thatmaterial, we're no longer hiding it

(40:34):
from ourselves and from everybody else.
We're helping you.
Infinite numbers of others, whichis why when I was reading your
book, Shannah, I put a post outin the community and said, Okay,
everybody, we all have money secrets.
Here's mine.
Here's here's a big one of mine.
We all have many.
Tell me yours.
And a few of our audience members,community members gave us theirs.
And there, I think you wouldsay, we'll see what you think.

(40:56):
Fairly typical.
Jackie, take us through a money secret.
My money secret or somebodyfrom the community, hopefully.
Well, well, I,
ha ha.
I love that.
I can start, you know, I came outtaresidency with $30,000 of credit card debt
because I deserved all these vacationsfrom my life of servitude in the hospital.

(41:19):
And, you know, I didn't tellmy wife about it before we got
married, so that was a secret.
Right.
And you.
You want to, you want to go into abig partnership like that, having
opened up the book, so to speak.
Jackie, what's a secret you might have?
Well, so Karen stillstayed with you after that?
Shame on you.
Well, she had a glove box fullof a hundred parking tickets,

(41:43):
which I'll tell you about.
So, you know, we had to process herparking tickets and my credit card debt.
You know how parking tickets cancompound, it's amazing in Chicago,
how many pink slips you can collectin a glove box, I'll tell you that.
Oh, God.
All right.
so like I said earlier alot of my story I have.

(42:03):
It was therapeutic for me to justshare it and be transparent about it.
But some of them I don't talkabout that much because I
would get the shock and awe.
So one of those things was that Itook a 50, 000 401k loan in 2009.
Now, On the surface, again,it's like clench my pearls like,
Oh my God, you never do that.

(42:23):
And every financial expert there is right.
It would say, Oh no, you never,ever, ever, ever take a 401k loan.
But I did think about it and.
My use for that was that it was 2009.
So right after the housing bubble, andI was able to buy this condo that they
didn't want to loan people money ifyou were not occupying the property.

(42:49):
So I'm like, okay, I think Icould pay for this in cash.
So I got about a. 250, 000condo for about 80, 000 in cash.
Well, I didn't have all 80, 000.
So I took a 50, 000 401k loan,came up with 30, 000 in cash myself
and bought the thing with cash.
And I don't regret the decision,but as soon as I mentioned it,

(43:11):
you know, I always get this look.
It's like, well, how can you bea financial expert and do that?
And.
By the time I tell the story, peoplekind of understand it, but that's
something I haven't talked much about.
And, I don't keep it a secret onpurpose, but I don't talk about
it that much unless I can put somecontext around it like I just did.

(43:31):
Well, Jackie, it may sound like asecret or feel like a secret to you
and your money scripts, but actuallythat sounds like a, well thought out
financial decision to buy an asset.
A lot of people take 401kloans to pay off debt.
Correct.
And that's usually the assumption.
And I guess that's why I'm slow to talkabout it because people's assumption, it,
Almost always is where you broke, you'reusing it to pay off credit card debt.

(43:54):
it's always somethingnegative attached to it.
So thank you, partner.
I appreciate, you know that'swhy we're good partners.
ha ha
They can make you feel better.
It's out there.
Yeah, woo!
You can breathe now.
That's my confession.
you got to do the samething for us, though, too.
It's only fair as a money trauma expertthat maybe you share one secret and then
we'll share a few from our audience.

(44:15):
Ooh, I've got so many ha ha ha I talkabout it a lot in my book, but here's
probably I I owed a decent amount on atax bill that I knew was, going to happen.
So I had learned about this special kindof tax deduction if you bought an SUV.

(44:36):
So I went out, bought a super expensiveSUV, got the big tax deduction,
didn't owe a tax bill, but thenhad a massive payment every month.
On my SUV and then proceeded to getdivorced about two months after and had
to pay the entire SUV payment myself,but at this point I had to give up

(44:57):
almost all my assets in the divorce.
So I had very little money toactually make that payment.
So it was a whole cascade of decisions.
Not really sure which one was bador good or whatever, but it was
definitely a time period where Iwas left with a very, very expensive
car payment that I had absolutely.

(45:20):
I had no right to have that,that type of car payment.
Yeah, it sounds like you let thetax pail wag the dog a little bit
Thousand percent.
and there was a lot of unintendedconsequences from that decision
that you didn't, you know,you got to play the endgame.
You got to reverse engineer it towhat's this natural conclusion, but you
had no way of knowing that maybe yourmarriage would blow up and that you'd

(45:41):
fill all your possessions into this.
Very expensive car payment carand leave everything else behind.
And this is not a story thatis unfamiliar to our audience.
We hear about these same kinds of stories,traumas and decisions in the community.
And I want to tell a few of them toohere because they were so kind to share

(46:01):
them with us in our Facebook community.
YS Wang says.
I lived below my means, but all myexcess money stayed in my checking
account for more than 10 years.
That's kind of your who was the oneyou referred to in your animals that
sort of stuck their head in their
Was it the nightingale?
Is that a nightingale?
Or was that
a little bit of a nightingale,might be a little bit of a turtle.

(46:24):
It just depends on how you interpret it.
But I actually hear that a lot.
I have actually worked with a lot ofwomen who have done that, who have
been very successful and actually hadmillions of dollars just sitting at a
checking account out of complete fear.
that's right, there was, you tolda story about that in your book, so
that somebody did it to a much biggertune, and yeah, they had all the money

(46:46):
in the world to live their lives,but they weren't letting it grow.
How did they overcome that fear?
And did they admit thatthat was a mistake?
They did, I think it was for them.
The advice that they had gotten fromexternal financial experts was just
felt too out of the line with who theywere, but they didn't really know how

(47:08):
to pinpoint what their values were andwhat they wanted their life to look like.
So we literally sat down inalmost like a therapy session
and got out a big piece of paper.
I do this often with people andsome, some markers and crayons
and said, okay, let's draw.
What we want life to look like,you know, what are the words?
Where are we living?
What are we doing?

(47:28):
And then we created basically her kindof map of of her life of her values.
And then I said, okay, so let's startsending that money to these places.
And so that was like a visual.
Practical example that she could seelike, oh, I can create the world I want

(47:48):
to live in and I don't have to be afraidof sending the money in those directions.
So it was, kind of a tearing down ofsome of those beliefs and really, it was
just rooted in immense fear of makingthe wrong decision and that the wrong
decision would mean she's a failure.
Like, she's been so great building herbusiness, but if she made the wrong
choice with money, it was just, youknow, take away all of that success.

(48:12):
So you obviously do a great job of,combining your CFP with a lot of
this trauma and psychology stuff.
So just for our audience, for someonethat might be specifically looking for
someone that has similar skills to you.
As a financial professional, isthere like a certain credential?

(48:33):
I mean, I know you have your credentialor , how do they find someone
that has this psychological sideand have that sort of infused in.
Their practice as afinancial professional.
It's tricky is what I'm going to say.
A lot of times you will findeither or so you'll find, you

(48:53):
know, a money therapist, right?
Who is adept at dealing with theemotional side of money or you'll
find a traditional CFP money expert.
That is.
The numbers person.
So it's, it's really, I find rare to findsomebody who matches both of those and
can do it in a real sort of seamless way.

(49:15):
I would tell people, look, if that's whatyou're looking for you can go on cfp.
net.
You can find out, youknow, CFPs in your area.
There are lots of otherresources out there.
Interview people.
Right.
Don't just hire somebody interviewpeople, interview as many people
as you need until you find someonethat you feel really matches up with

(49:38):
the language, the vocabulary, theapproach, the skills that you are
going to need to help you get unstuck.
And I think sometimes when weget around money, we, we kind
of freak out and we feel like.
Oh, my gosh, how dare I interviewsomebody and ask them questions, right?
But you're paying them money.

(49:58):
Ask them all of the questions.
Ask them if they help you do this.
Ask them about their credentials.
Ask them about their process.
All of that, I think, is super importantto finding somebody who you know,
can be a really good fit for you.
Yeah.
And I'm thinking these days, you know,with technology, a lot of these financial
professionals, they have a podcast orthey're on podcasts or they're blogging

(50:21):
or they, you know, there might be somematerial or something out there that
gives you a sense of who this person is.
But I can say as a recent, CFPcertificate I got my CFP in
2022 they have incorporated.
Psychology of financial planning is oneof the domains for the exam, but I can
tell you it's not what it needs to be.

(50:44):
They basically go over somecognitive biases and that's about it.
Hopefully, as time goes on,that will get better and better.
But I know when I was getting mycertification, I was thinking in terms of
this psychological part is so important.
I can't even really do what I do.
And I mostly do education.
But even with that, I wanted tohave the psychological side of

(51:06):
it because that was so powerful.
It happened to me and a lotof other people where it
wasn't just the money part.
The money part is very, very helpful.
And like you said, the rightmix, the right merging.
Is to have a little bit of both becausewhen I'm talking about goals and how
you feel, it's kind of cool to throwin some things that might be helpful.

(51:27):
Like you said, you deal with women a lotand I do as well, but like, you'll have
someone, maybe they got divorced and theywere married for 20 years and they're
like, I don't have any retirement at all.
And then I'll throw out, I'll say,now, you know, that you have benefits.
being married more than 10 years, youknow, you could get social security

(51:49):
benefits on behalf of your ex spouse.
And you know, so that only thattogether, does it really help out?
So so do a little digging, typicallypeople that are talking about the stuff
like you and use that approach, there'ssomething out there to help you do that.
And hopefully, Getting their credential.
The CFP credential will startto incorporate a lot more of the

(52:12):
stuff that you're talking about.
I mean, this is critical becauseCFP is the foundation, right?
And not, and then the flat fee adviceonly project management type planner
is important, but that's the numbers.
The soft side is when they're goingto get these additional credentials,
like you have, Jackie, like youhave, Shauna, or I would say,

(52:32):
look for a certified life planner.
Look for somebody that's gone so far asto say, George Kinder, this is important.
I've got my financialfoundation, but I need to.
They get out there, they hang uptheir shingle, and they realize, Oh,
my God, I've got to talk to people.
I can't just run their numbers.
I've got to work with theirdreams and their goals.
So how do I become a financialtherapist in my own way?

(52:56):
What credentials mightI seek out to do so?
So there are other additional credentialsthat will tell you this person is
interested in who I am and who I want.
To be not just the number thatI need to get to, as we've
been talking about before.
Yeah.
And that can make all the difference.
there's some other secrets out there,which we'll maybe have to put in

(53:17):
the show notes because there's justso many, or I'll refer you back to
the posts we have in our communitywhere there's like 50 comments of
posts.
I love
haven't, yeah, absolutely.
And if you haven't joined our community,we do have a very active Facebook
group, almost 17, 000 people, andthere's a lot going on in there.
So come on over.
It's just catching up to FI.
And so Bill, why don't we wecan take a couple, can't we?

(53:40):
Cause we had some good ones.
What about anonymous?
okay.
We'll lay, we'll go alittle bit over today.
Cause I want to get to acouple of manifestos as well.
Okay, so just one more and thenwe can get to the manifesto.
Okay, Let's do Robins becauseRobins is CPA and people who work
with numbers don't get this righteither, you know, it's not just.

(54:01):
You can have your MBA andtotally screw this up.
You can be a CEO andtotally screw this up.
Robin says, in my early earning years Itook a quote, investment advice from my
bank and ended up owning way too manyexpensive bank sponsored mutual funds.
Hey.
I did this and it's not advice.

(54:22):
They're selling you their products.
And then I never reviewed theseinvestments or reconsidered for 25 years.
The thing here is that we makethese decisions and once we've
made them, we're filled this.
Overwhelming sense of relief.
Okay, I've made a decision.
And then then you have what you know,you end up having sunk costs because

(54:43):
you say, Oh, no, I've done this.
I've done it wrong, but I'm justgoing to have to see it through.
And you don't acknowledge the loss oflike, okay, I need to get out of this.
I've dug myself a hole.
Let's build a ladder out of the hole.
And then she said also in mytwenties, she leased a brand new
car because the dealership convincedme it was better to it was a better
deal than Financing a purchase.

(55:04):
It wasn't.
And then she comes cleanand says, I'm a CPA.
And it's her 20,
it took her 25 years to recover fromand this is what happened to us.
We made some, the absence of adecision is still a decision.
And we made the absence of a decisionnot to really deal with our money
and to live paycheck to paycheck.
And we woke up 20 years laterrealizing that we had saved last.

(55:28):
We made the decision passivelyto save last and spend first.
And we needed to invert theequation, just like Charlie Munger.
So, there's so many secrets outthere that we need to share so that
other people, universally, thesefolks all said, I don't want somebody
else to make the same mistake.
Let's swing towards the fences here,and towards maybe the end of the

(55:51):
show, by taking you up, lifting youup, because that's why we're here.
And Shannah, you quote, Two manifestosin the book, which I absolutely loved.
One was from Apple, and then theother is your manifesto that you
supposedly, somewhere near yourdesk, have hanging on the wall.

(56:12):
Jackie, maybe you could help us.
By reading Apple's manifesto first, andthen Shannah can talk to us about why
she modified something like this intoher own personal money manifesto, because
she encourages you to write your thoughtsdown about your relationship with money.
Yeah, let's do it.
Let's check out Apple'sInfluential Manifesto.

(56:34):
So here's to the crazy ones, themisfits, the rebels, the troublemakers,
the round pegs in the square holes,the ones who see things differently.
They are not fond of rules.
And they have no respectfor the status quo.
You can quote them, disagree withthem, glorify or vilify them.

(56:54):
But the only thing you can't do isignore them because they change things.
They push.
the human race forward.
And while some might see them as crazyones, we see genius because the people who
think they are crazy enough to think theycan change the world are the ones who do.

(57:19):
Isn't that fantastic, Shanna?
I mean, that, that is, I'm so gladyou put that in the book, because
this describes the FI community.
This describes the FI culture, right?
I love that manifesto.
I don't care how you thinkabout them as a company.
There's something about that for me.
I'm a big, like, I'm an emotional person.
That just hits me right deep in thecore because I feel like I am a square

(57:44):
peg, like I don't fit anywhere and Istruggled with that so much in my life.
But, you know, now that I'm inmy 40s, like I embrace being
different and I love that.
And yeah, I took this concept of,you know, businesses have these
manifestos, they have these.

(58:04):
Credo's of how they want tointeract and what they want their
customers to feel and all of this.
Why don't we create our own manifestoaround money and you can interpret this
in any way that you want to interpretit and I actually am in the process of I
have gotten rid of my old one and I'm inthe process of rewriting mind because.

(58:25):
Through writing this book and this wholeprocess with me, I've really evolved and
changed and so right now my new manifestois just kind of a couple of bullet points,
but really where I am right now is that mymanifesto is about me and other humans are
above money, that money is not above us.
And that I can use my money topowerfully change this world and that

(58:50):
having more money is a source of that.
And that is not somethingthat makes me bad.
That is something that makes megood, proactive and helpful for my
community, my family and myself.
And I also choose.
This is language I deliberately havein my manifesto is I choose to have
a healthy relationship with moneyand I choose to have empowering

(59:14):
thoughts around money every day.
So that's just somethingthat's personal to me, but, you
know, you can create your own.
It can be a sentence.
It could be a word.
It could be a picture, but something that.
This really showcases what you believe andwant your relationship around money to be.
And then the second piece of it isput it somewhere that you see it.

(59:34):
It's like a, you know, a twist ona vision board, if you will, right?
Put it somewhere that you can see itby your computer or on your phone or
something and just remind yourself aboutthis idea of relationship with money and
how you want to live it out every day.
Well, Bill, we got to writeour own manifesto then.

(59:55):
We need a, we need the late,because we have Fritz Gilbert
with the Retirement Manifesto.
Maybe we need to have the LateStarter or the FI Manifesto.
That would be a good one, Jackie.
That's food for thought.
A little project there.
we should work on that.
yeah, we need to put that onthe project list for sure.
maybe we can crowdsource this andask our community to chime in, in the

(01:00:17):
Facebook community with what shouldbe on the Late Starter Manifesto.
I think I'll go write a post today and see
Yeah, look, look at all the greatideas coming out of this podcast.
Shannah, you're just really motivatingus and inspiring us to kind of take
some of these ideas from the book.
Well, we loved it so, so much thatnow we are really thinking about,
okay, how can we extend this?

(01:00:39):
How can we, Actually do somethingthat's gonna make us better with the
financial part, not just the math.
Well, I want to know, too, now thatwe've processed so many feelings and
emotions, behaviors and patterns aroundmoney today in our show, Shannah, how are
you doing with your ATM receipt problem?

(01:00:59):
You know, it's a journey.
Let me tell you, Bill.
I'm good.
I no longer create origami.
I actually do look and for me,I set up these time blocks.
This is the process that worked for me is.
I set a timer on my, on my phone,five minutes, five minutes.
I look at my money, I do whatever I needto, I have whatever thoughts I need to.

(01:01:20):
Once that five minutes is up, I walk away.
So, for me, I create a structurethat works with my own emotions
and my own goals and helps me justhave complete balance around money.
So, nowadays, origami is only beingcreated out of, scrap pieces of paper.
Yay,
And we're here to inspire our audience.

(01:01:41):
And one of the things I found in yourbook, too, and we're not going to
end on a money note here, we're goingto end on a personal triumph note.
And I hope I'm not oversteppingmy bounds here, but you're very
transparent about it in the book.
I noticed that on during this podcast,you have one Headphone in or one
earphone in you had a major personalhealth trauma that you overcame, and

(01:02:03):
I'm sure in some way that hitting youin the face and overcoming it has a
lot to do with overcoming any trauma,let alone money trauma in your life.
Can you give us a littlebit about that story?
Yeah, a little over six years ago in2018 I had an accident became death in
my left ear and I have chronic tinnitus,tinnitus, depends how you pronounce it.

(01:02:27):
And for those of you who don't know,think about turning up The loudest
static on TV, and that is what'splaying out in my left ear 24 7.
So it's this weird thing of notbeing able to hear externally, but of
being able to hear a lot internally.
And that really was a turningpoint in kind of everything for

(01:02:50):
me, because I realized that I I nowhave this disability, if you will.
I can't do life the same way.
I can't stress out aboutthings the same way.
I need to really Change some thingsand part of that was really my
relationship with money and, theinfluence that I let it have on my life.
And I, really had to take sometime to create my own kind of

(01:03:10):
tools in the, in the toolkit.
A lot of them I share them in thebook of, of exercises, of things
to try, of, journaling prompts.
All sorts of different thingsto help me get rid of some
of the gunk so that I could.
Just function as somebody who lives witha kind of chronic trauma every single day.
Yeah, and then I just find it soinspiring because everybody has,

(01:03:34):
you know, we went through a healthtrauma last year and we overcame it.
We're going through yet another cartrauma this year now to just found
out that my wife's car is toast andwe have to for the fourth time in five
years by another used new car to us.
And I'm like, you know, all thiscar money I could probably retire.

(01:03:54):
And so it never the traumas never cease.
Yeah.
it's how we face them, embrace them andovercome them that help us grow as people.
Okay, Shauna, final question.
We're coming to the end of the show andhopefully not to the end of our lives,
but you talked to a client who wasgetting close to the end of their life.

(01:04:15):
They were your oldest client ever,and you asked them a very prescient
question and maybe got a surprise answer.
Can you tell us what you askedthem and what their answer was?
Yeah, I was super curious.
I am really of people that are olderthat are, you know, facing death that
know that that's coming soon about.
About money and the rolethat it played in their life.

(01:04:37):
And, this person told me that theyhad focused way too much on money
in their life and really wish thatthey had focused more on time on the
things that they loved to do in life.
And you know, we started to talkabout values and it's really, it was
a. It's a conversation that I holdreally close to me, and I think about

(01:05:02):
it often, because they felt like theyhad built these businesses, and they
had amassed all this wealth, and atthe end of the day, they were looking
at death, and, and the amount of moneythey had couldn't change any of that.
And they wished that they had donecertain things in life that they
didn't do, and now they can't do them.
So it really made thisbig impression on me that.

(01:05:24):
You know, it can't just be about money.
It can't be.
And when we make it just about money,like we miss out on on so much and that
time is really the resource that isscarce and there's always more money.
Well, I agree wholeheartedly it for me.
It's about the people spending timewith a person like yourself today.

(01:05:46):
It's been awesome You know I will havedone this and it's worth all the money
in the world to have spent time withyou today and talk about your book
Today that is called the unravelingyour relationship with money It's the
ultimate guide to breaking free fromfinancial shame, ditching the hustle
for less mindset, and creating a lifethat's bold, abundant, and as we've

(01:06:11):
talked about today, authentically yours.
Shannah, it's been greattalking with you today.
Thank you for sharing your book with me.
for sharing your messagewith our audience.
Jackie, any final thoughts?
Yeah, I loved unraveling yourrelationship with money, and I
think our audience will love it too.
So tell us the official launch datefor the book and how they can find you.

(01:06:38):
The book comes out on February19th, and you can find the book
absolutely everywhere books are sold.
Or you can go to my website,everyonestalkinmoney.com/book.
I have some amazing bonuses thereif you purchase through that link
and you can check out my podcast,everyone's talking money, literally
everywhere podcasts are found.

(01:07:00):
Yeah, and we love the podcast,so we know that you're gonna
love the, listen to the podcast.
Get the book and whatever your financialexpert is not doing, this is going to
incorporate a lot of that emotional side.
So thank you for putting that out there.
It means so much.
And to me for a complete picture ofyour whole financial life, you have

(01:07:22):
to explore that psychological sideand you've done a great job of that.
yeah, getting to know your moneyis all about getting to know
yourself and you can't know yourmoney without knowing yourself.
Wow.
You can't know your moneywithout knowing yourself.
Sounds like a title ofa book there somewhere.
it does.
I think it does!
Look at all this genius nessyou're pulling out of us, Donna.

(01:07:44):
right.
Well, we're running out of time today.
I can hear the signal fading.
We're going to have to move on.
Let's try to move on.
But we'll be talking to younext week on Catching Up to FI.

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ATM Receipts, Origami, and Unravelling Your Relationship With Money | Shannah Game | 123

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}ATM Receipts, Origami, and Unravelling Your Relationship With Money | Shannah Game | 123