April 20, 2025 • 54 mins
Amy Minkley is the founder of FI Freedom Retreats, a passion project that was born out of her love and gratitude for the F.I.R.E. (Financial Independence, Retire Early) movement and community. In this episode, she shares her journey to achieving financial independence (FI) while living in Bali, Indonesia. Amy gives us a glimpse into her lavish yet affordable lifestyle, spending only $30k a year. She details her frugal upbringing, early teaching career in Japan, and subsequent well-paid international teaching positions that allowed her to save aggressively. The episode also highlights Amy's contributions to the local Balinese community through the FI Freedom Retreats, aimed at educating and bringing together the FI community in Asia.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
I'm only spending around 30,000 a year.
Now, that's for me.
I'm not including my partner in that atall, like his nest egg or what he spends.
But we live a prettylavish lifestyle in Bali.
I feel, we've got a reallynice place where we're living.
We're about to move into a littlevilla, the rice patties but just
a very good quality of life.
It's nothing luxurious, but for meit's luxurious just because I have.
(00:23):
Time freedom because I've got naturearound me because I've got a great
community of, people around me.
So I am really spendingless than 4% a year.
And that makes me feel secure.
But also I really don't feellike I need anything else.
I am still traveling to theus, I'm traveling to Australia.
I'm going to a lot of five eventsevery year as much as I can.
There's not reallyanything else that I want.
(00:44):
Or need in my life.
if someone put a gun to my head andasked me that question, it's kind of
an extreme question, but your money oryour life, like what would I choose?
And really seeing that all of mylife I had been choosing money.
It wasn't serving me becauseI still didn't feel secure.
so really getting clearabout, what are my values?
(01:06):
How do I wanna spend my time?
What life do I love?
And that, led me back to mysabbatical years in Bali.
And I knew how much my life cost me there.
And so I knew that really Iwas close to being FIRE there.
And I just needed to,work a little bit longer.
To me enough means, , being able to dothe things that I love in my life, like
(01:27):
having enough in investments where I'mnot drawing, doing too fast on that.
So I want to be.
Not drawing more than 4%.
Personally, that justmakes me feel secure.
I know that Bill Bangin says youcan, withdraw 5%, but, truthfully,
in Bali, I don't need to withdraw 5%.
So there's no point in that.
But for me, enough actually looks like ona day-to-day basis living my life, well,
(01:48):
exercising, taking care of my physicalhealth, which I feel like so much of my
life, I was so focused on financial healthto the detriment of my physical health.
So for me enough is, having a communityof people around me that I love.
(02:32):
Hello and welcome backto Catching Up to FI.
I'm Bill Yt with my beautifulco-host Jackie Cummings Koski, who
is downstairs in my house right now.
She's come down for a visit.
We just did a guest lecture yesterday atUniversity of Tennessee to agriculture
students and help them get their onto theright start with their personal finance.
(02:52):
It was a lot of fun and wentreally well, right Jackie?
Yeah, it really did.
And even though we technically were guestlecturers, which made us sound big time,
we were just having a lot of fun withthe kids we're giving away $2 bills.
We talked a lot about compoundgrowth and how we all wish we
could trade places with them.
So , it was a lot of fun.
And we got to see a littlebit of Knoxville, right.
What was the name of thatrestaurant we went to?
(03:14):
We went to.
Tupelo Honey,
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we wanna give ashout out to Dr. DeLong.
She brought us in she teaches in theAg School at University of Tennessee.
She is amazing and I don't findtoo many people with more energy
than me, but she's one of them.
She's won a bunch of teacher awardsand one of the reasons is she sort
(03:34):
of caters to her students and theirneeds, and it's really nice to see.
And this is not something, a part oftheir regular curriculum or programming.
So I really commend her for reachingout, bringing us in, and stressing
how important personal finances,'cause she did a little prep
session herself with the students.
So by the time we got there, itwas mainly juniors and seniors.
(03:57):
They were well versedon a lot of topics, but.
I love teachers like her.
She is how it should be teacher supportingstudents, not just in the classroom,
but also knowing that they're gonnasoon be out in that financial world,
We encourage our community to reach outor take every opportunity to do the same
thing at public schools or colleges.
(04:19):
you guys have the knowledgeto make a difference in.
People's lives.
But anyway, we need to jump into afantastic guest appearance today.
We've been trying to do this for a year.
Our guest today is Amy Minkley,but I'm gonna turn it over
to Jackie to introduce her.
Oh, I got to meet Amy at Economylast year, and she is amazing.
(04:41):
So thank you for connecting me with her.
So after working all over Asia for18 years as a hard charging Vagabond
teacher, our guest, Amy was burnedout to a crisp and a frantic bit to
save her sanity and relationship.
She googled.
We know it.
Financial independence andfound the fire movement and
(05:02):
down that rabbit hole she went.
A lot of us has done that.
So armed with knowledge of hundreds offire blogs podcast, Amy gained a new
sense of hope and she overcame the onemore year syndrome and quit her job.
In Bangkok, so I had thatone more year syndrome.
So in 2021, she moved to Balito live her dream life and
(05:25):
share the message of financialindependence and purposeful living.
She's the founder of PHI Freedom Retreats.
and you'll hear from her thisreally transformative pilgrimage
for five minded people.
And, this whole new journey was born.
So by the time this airs we will have seenAmy once again at the economy conference.
(05:47):
But we are so thrilled to be connectedwith this amazing woman that is gonna
talk to us a little bit more aboutthat treat as well as her own story.
So Amy, welcome to catching up to five.
Thank you for having me, Jackieand Bill, I'm so happy to be here.
Well, right now you're in Texas,in the state side with your mom
spending time with her, your partner'sback in Bali, organizing a house.
(06:11):
Your life is quite interesting, soyou've had some rough times in the
past, but how are you doing today?
Today I am doing great.
We just celebrated my mom's 84thbirthday recently, and I feel so blessed,
to have I. Time freedom, location.
You mentioned I was supposed tohave an interview with you last
year, but , my dad passed lastyear and my mom's aging a lot.
So to be able to come home andspend time with my mom, in her
(06:35):
eighties and my dad at the endof his life has been such a gift.
And that was part of the, impetusfor me to finally, finding the fire
movement but also my dad having astroke really helped to propel me to
finally walk away from those goldenhandcuffs that I had in Bangkok.
So I'm, doing great now and , I'm soblessed to be in the US and then to
head back to Bali at the end of themonth and, work on this villa that
(06:57):
we're organizing the rice patties,my partner and I. So I'm really
excited to set up life there as well.
Yeah, well We're gonna see you againat economy, and that's where I met you.
Originally, and you've been on a lotof pilgrimages and this all started
for you though, in your formativeyears when you were a kid because there
were some interesting messages aboutmoney and things that you learned,
(07:19):
and your growth and developmentat that time is sort of pivotal to
how things came full circle later.
Can you take us back to those times andsort of what you learned from parents
about money and what personal travailswent on in your life at that time?
Sure.
Yeah.
When I was a younger kid, I didn't worryabout money, but my mom was always frugal.
She was a coupon clipper.
(07:41):
she was a stay at home mom, andmy parents had four children.
I was the surprise at the end ofmy parents' life and much younger
than my three older sisters.
So I didn't ever feel any moneyinsecurity when I was much younger,
but I just knew that like I wasn't,allowed to have brand names.
We didn't, shop, we didn't eat out much.
We didn't go shopping much.
She was always very frugal.
(08:01):
And I think that came from her parents,But then when I was 12, my father left.
And my parents were married for 24 years.
It was quite a shock to the familybecause, I never saw them fight that.
I didn't know that they were havingany issues, but he kinda had the
classic midlife crisis where he.
Ran off with a younger woman andhe stopped paying child support.
So, we really went from having,financial security to not having money
(08:25):
really, and had to sell the familyhome, had to move to a different state
so my mom could go back to university.
She had never, I. Gotten her collegedegree before and she finished her
college degree when she was 54.
So it really caused her a lot of anxiety.
And really because my sisters were alloff at college, I became like almost like
a surrogate spouse where I really saw alot of those money fears that she had.
(08:47):
And, she was reading alot of financial books.
She didn't really knowanything about investing.
She had relied on my dad to do that orher husband to know about that and found
her in a. Like I said, probably a lot oflate starters are at where just kind of
at the point in their life where they'rekind of panicked, like, what have I done?
I haven't saved enough money.
But she went back to get her nursingdegree and then she worked a lot
of nights and weekends and, endedup actually in a better financial
(09:09):
position than my father was.
Just because she was a lot morefrugally minded than he ever was.
But yeah, , that had a huge impacton me because I. Even though I'm
the baby of the family, I actuallygot less support than my sisters.
My father had been married to mymother and helped pay for my sister's
school, but then by the time I got tocollege, I needed to pay for that.
And , I paid my rent and hadtwo jobs and took me five years.
(09:30):
But I managed to graduate debt freeand mostly 'cause I went to a state
school and I worked as an RA and I, justhustled a lot and, it was a lot cheaper
when I graduated as well, so I really.
Empathize with students nowadays'cause it is a lot more expensive
than it was when I went to school.
But there were a lotof lessons in that too.
Like even though it was a struggleand I lived in yucky apartments
(09:51):
that were the cheapest that I couldfind, I am so grateful for it.
'cause I learned how to budgetand I watched every penny.
But on the other hand, thosesame tactics that I had in my
younger years did not serve me.
Especially when I was burning outtamy job in Bangkok and I was in that
position of always thinking like,I need more money, I learned as a
child, money can disappear overnight.
(10:12):
You could be financially secureand then suddenly you're not.
And so there was, a lot of money,fears I had to work through and scarcity
mindset issues from my childhood thatno longer served me as I, came closer.
Tophi.
Now we've talked about money,trauma, and it certainly sounds
like you had both personal andmoney trauma, as did your mom.
And what's interesting is your storyresonates, I'm sure, well with Jackie
(10:34):
because it's very similar to her story.
And the story of yourmother resonates with me.
'cause my mom in herfifties had to go back.
Refresh her nursing degree andworked until she was 70 in order to
be financially independent, whichshe became, and that's one of the
biggest gifts she gave our family.
Wow.
And you know, Amy, I'm listening toyou talk about your single mom and how
resilient she was and the fact that eventhough you had a hard time, when your dad
(10:58):
left, I. You said your mom ended up doingbetter than your dad after she pulled it
all together and you got to watch that.
Yes.
Yeah, she did.
I mean she worked till she was 71 as well.
But she worked a lot of shifts andI mean and this makes me emotional
when I think about it, but Ijust really admire her so much.
'cause I know, to go back to schoolthat late in life and, she had to do
(11:19):
algebra and just her basic prerequisitesbefore she could, get her nursing
degree, it was so intimidating.
But she pulled it offand she did a great job.
And, , I'm so grateful for all the lessonsthat gave me and she taught me so much.
And even, my dad too, I mean, he passedaway last year and I have to hand it to
him as well because, for 25 years he.
Was kind of in denial about theimpact he had on the family.
(11:42):
But then later in his life, he camearound and he paid her, I think it was
$88,000 of back child support, thathe owed her , just after doing the
Landmark Forum, a, a transformationalcourse that had a big impact on his life.
And then he apologized toeveryone in the family, and really
he made it right in the end.
And so
I'm grateful to him as well.
Mm-hmm.
that's a beautiful thing and you madethat piece before he passed away.
(12:03):
And being financially minded, I dothink about the mechanics as well.
So when you said, your dad left.
And he stopped paying child support.
I'm like, well, did the mom everget back that child support?
And she did.
So, that's great to hear becauseshe had to struggle so hard and she
finally got what, belonged to her.
And I always say parents sometimeswill do for their kids what
(12:25):
they won't do for themselves.
So you very well may have been,the motivation for her to work as
hard as she did and do what shedid to make sure you was okay.
What's interesting is yourdad was a lawyer, right?
And he was bit of a late starterand wasn't as financially well
off, even though he had much moreof a significant income, right?
Yeah, and I just wanna clarify.
I said that he stopped paying childsupport, but I should be more clear that
(12:47):
it was just more sporadic child support.
It's not that he never paidever again but it wasn't what
the court ordered him to pay.
So my dad was an adventurous,he was very spon.
he would do things like move to Hondurasfor a couple years or then he moved
to the Micronesia for a few years andso he was just changing jobs a lot.
He wasn't very detail oriented, sohe often didn't bill his clients.
(13:08):
He was a very dedicated lawyer and hewas very aggressive in the courtroom.
Like he could argue hard, but hewasn't detail oriented when it
actually came to his bookkeeping.
And, he spent a lot of money.
He loved traveling and scuba divingand skiing and that kind of thing.
So it's interesting that my mom justwas much more meticulous and, saving.
Yeah, that's interesting becauseit sounds like you got a bit
(13:29):
of a travel bug from him.
Right.
And let's maybe migrate into thatbecause I think I remember that you
majored in history and you weren'tsure where that was gonna go after
college, but where did it go?
What happened next?
Well, truthfully, I just studied what Iloved and I would sit in history classes
and just take pages of notes and was litup and would, watch documentaries on tv.
(13:50):
So that's what I loved.
And at that time my momwas in college and just.
Too busy to really thinkabout directing me very much.
And my dad wasn't as involved as well.
So, no one came to me and said, well,that doesn't really make much sense to
study history, a liberal arts degree.
But I studied what I loved andit ended up working out for me.
I mean, it's not alwaysthe case for everyone.
But I went abroad to Japan toteach English at Japanese high
(14:11):
schools and that was so much fun.
And I discovered mylove of teaching there.
I mean, I was.
Only teaching Japanese kids in governmentschools, but that time the Japanese
government paid, flights over, fullhousing and I was able to save money and
I was with a lot of young people from allover the English speaking world, Brits
and Australians and, we all lived kindof close together and it was just kind
(14:33):
of an extension of college in a way.
But.
That was a really fun experience andI was able to save about $20,000.
I mean, this was 2005 when I left,so I was there for four years.
Not a lot of money, but it gave meenough money to travel around Southeast
Asia and South Asia and Europe.
I spent about eight months travelingand then I had still some money
left over to go back to gradschool, and I was able to get.
(14:55):
Through grad school withonly $11,000 of debt.
'cause I was working as agraduate teaching fellow and
I was , living in a co-op.
So that was pretty affordable.
So it was still really, it didn't haveto buy furniture or anything like that.
Still really, living on the cheap.
So I'm grateful for that job and that.
Which job really opened my eyes to theworld and traveling and teaching abroad.
And I thought when I moved to Japan, Imight stay abroad a year or two and I
(15:17):
never imagined that was 2001, that I wouldbe abroad this over two decades later.
Oh my gosh.
I think I'm jealous already.
So Amy, when you got that firstteaching job in Japan in 2005, do
you know about what your salarywas for that first teaching job?
Oh gosh.
I mean, I'd have to think back.
So I was hired in 2001.
(15:37):
It wasn't much.
But I saved 5,000 USDA year, andthat wasn't a whole lot, but
it was also , 25 years ago.
Right.
So, I can't remember exactly,but all my housing was covered,
so that made a huge difference.
And I mean, I traveled every holidayI had as well, but we pretty much
traveled on the cheap with my friends.
The friends I met in Japan, those arestill some of my closest friends today.
(15:58):
I had the best time of my life.
It was one of the veryhappiest times of my life.
So even though it didn't pay as wellas international schools working
in Japanese government school,it still paid well at the time.
And for being a fresh college gradwith a history degree, basically,
Yeah, and, well, especially if youfactor in the housing stuff, that's
typically the largest expense there is.
(16:20):
So you get to do all this travelingand you're in a fabulous country and
you have a lot of disposable income,but you're still saving something.
I absolutely loved it, and I would neverregret that for any amount of time.
I mean, the international school jobsthat I had after Japan, I worked in
Singapore and India and Thailand.
Those all paid much higher thanthe Japan job, but I would say
(16:43):
my happiest years were in Japan.
Well, so mentioned that you're verytransparent about your numbers and sort of
let's go through them because you Retiredearly, actually in the end of the day.
And somehow you got the finances right.
And what does that mean?
What was sort of your peakincome and what did you save?
(17:05):
And then, let's take us through sortof that progression to when I think you
retired at 45 or something like that.
Yes.
So after I got my grad degree, andI was very lucky to get a job at an
international school in Singapore.
Someone I knew that I workedwith in Japan was working there,
so that helped me out a lot.
But I was able to pay off that$11,000 of graduate student debt
(17:25):
in four months in Singapore.
So that was huge.
I thought it was gonnatake me years to pay off.
I assumed I was gonnateach in the US first.
And in Singapore, my salarycontinued to go up there.
I saved, about 60% ofmy income in Singapore.
And , it continued, it increasedlike the first couple of years.
I think I only saved 35% of my income,but then over time I think it averaged
out to be around 60% of my income.
(17:47):
I was there for six years and Iabsolutely loved my time in Singapore.
International schools were a lot morebusy than my teaching job in Japan.
But it's a very.
Convenient, easy country to travel in.
You never get tired ofliving in Singapore.
Really.
It's so clean and efficient andit's a great jumping off point
to lots of countries in SoutheastAsia, and the, pay is quite high
(18:07):
to all the neighboring countries.
So your money goes quite far.
And , the income tax of thetime, is taxed in Singapore
dollars was only around 7%.
So it was really in.
There as well.
My housing was mostly covered, I think itwas around 80% covered, and I basically
house hacked by renting out my other room.
And so then that covered up the restof the, housing costs plus the bills.
(18:27):
So that really made a difference.
So I was there for six years andthen I went to India and I was
working in an embassy school there.
And the great thing about thatschool, it was an American school
and, they paid into social security.
I had lots of extra benefitsthey wouldn't have had.
Just being able to be partof like an American system.
And that school, I was also able tosave about 60% of my income because
(18:48):
my housing was fully covered there.
I mean, it's a four bedroom, four bath,beautiful place with marble floors, just
really, because it's India, they workreally hard to make it easier on people.
They would paint it, if you wantedto change the paint color, just.
Choose your color, they'llcome over and paint.
They just, they were so good aboutmaintenance and, everything, just trying
to make it really, really comfortable.
(19:09):
So I stayed four years in New Delhiand then, , I was wanting to take
another sabbatical year 'cause I'ddone that after Japan and traveled
and I had planned to go around Africaand I was really excited about that.
took it year off and Iwas passing through Bali.
I just was doing a personal growth courseat the time, and I ended up really seeing,
there was still a lot of pain that Iwas carrying from childhood, from this
(19:30):
feeling of abandonment with my father.
And really, I'd been single for, Ithink around 16 years at that point.
And I'd always kind of had thisstory of, I'm strong and I'm
independent and I don't need a man.
But I realized it was aprotective mechanism because.
Ultimately I felt, that just kindof like my father had run off with
a younger woman that, I didn't wannabe vulnerable like my mother was.
(19:50):
And I did a lot of work around that inBali and it was a huge impact on my life.
And I ended up staying in,volunteering for this woman who
was running these retreats in Bali.
And during that time I met Matthew, and I think it was because of a
lot of the healing work I had done.
With her around my distrustof, men and my childhood.
And so I ended up stayingin Bali and realizing that's
(20:11):
what I needed on my year off.
It wasn't to travel around like I haddone in 2005 after living in Japan.
What I needed in this was 2017was just to stay in one place.
That was Bali and I, loved it.
Just being, having a routine everyday, getting up, doing yoga, having
deep friendships and deep relationshipsinstead of always being on the go.
I really discovered that that wasa place that I wanted to live.
(20:33):
And I'd been there lots of timesas a tourist living in Asia,
but I'd never really saw thecommunity people that lived there.
And so that was, , my most joyousyears besides Japan, really.
But then I got scared about money, so thenI went back to international teaching.
Well, you said you saved significantamounts of money, and then you
talked about , in one of your CampPhy talks, the progression there.
(20:54):
I'm kind of curious because younever earned more than, five figures.
You never earned more than sixfigures, and you were able to retire.
Comfortably in your forties.
Tell us how you did that,because our audience wants to
know how to do it themselves.
I mean, I think it's good no matter, likeone thing to think about is geo arbitrage.
If it's possible for audiencemembers, and I know not everybody
is a teacher, but sometimes dependingon their profession, if it is.
(21:18):
Possible to live in a lower cost ofliving part of the US or find a way
to earn money in a higher salary.
Maybe you've got a job in SanFrancisco, but you're able to work
remote or something like that.
Or matter your profession, maybeyou're able to get a posting abroad.
There are a lot of companies that do that.
But definitely, I was very savingsfocused and a lot of that was
(21:38):
coming from a childhood wound.
A lot of it wasn't coming from a healthyplace, and it wasn't because I was smart,
but it was just seeing my mom read allthese, finance books when I was younger
in a frantic bid to like save herself.
That put that into my mind of, savingmoney, putting it into index funds.
And I had read when I was in high school,a book called Girls Just Wanna Have Funds,
(21:59):
which was a play on the city law song.
Yeah, I've
um, yeah.
And so then, I mean, I knew toinvest in index funds and so I
was doing that all along the way.
And then, really.
I left Bali and I was really happythere, but I dragged my partner
to Bangkok for this to go backto international school teaching.
I ended up taking two years in Bali.
(22:20):
My network hadn't gone down, but Ijust didn't feel like I had enough.
And so I went back to Bangkok and itprobably was good that I went back
because that was my highest earning everand I earned about 90,000 a year there
and I was able to save 90% of that.
I. Because the housing was covered,I didn't have to, furnish the place
and annual flights home and all of theshipping and everything's included.
And it was the pandemic.
(22:40):
So there wasn't a whole lot tospend money on as well, and I was
just trying to get in and get out.
As far as savings goes, I. I was there fortwo years, so that really helped as well.
Those two years boosted my savings.
But I was, especially the first year,I wasn't very happy 'cause I really
saw that I was kind of giving up mydream life and I was chasing money and
that I was burning myself out, workingall the time and kind of feeling like
(23:03):
an imposter in this school that it'sreally hard to get into those schools.
And so my whole.
Method for dealing with that is justto work harder than anybody, stay
up late lesson plan all the time.
And my partner thought, who are you?
I knew you before you were bowling Amy.
You were free and happy, and now you'rein Bangkok and you're just a workaholic.
And yeah, really stressed out person.
(23:24):
So I have a question, Amy.
My question is around theinvestment and the savings vehicles.
So you're in another country.
Did they have the same type oflike employer sponsored retirement
plans that they have in the us?
How was that different?
A lot of the schools do have,I mean, it really depends on
international school, by internationalschool, but it's not uncommon.
(23:45):
I had at one school, I think12% matching, which was pretty
incredible.
But then just I'm not able to do,4 0 1 Ks or anything like that.
And even a Roth IRA, because I don't haveUS earned income, so I was always putting
it in just non-tax advantaged accounts.
Just regular brokerage accounts.
There were some years that I didearn in the US and so I do have
(24:08):
a Roth, but otherwise I don'thave like a traditional account.
And I have less money in social securitythan most people because, other than
my four years in India and then theyears that I worked, when I was in grad
school and undergrad and high school,I don't have as many high earning years
for sure compared to most people thatI would've done for Social security.
But you managed to get yourcredits and you will receive
(24:29):
social security at that time.
I was
Yes.
Yeah, I have got my credits
So those
are the 10 years, is it?
yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I started working at 16 andI worked all through college as well,
and then in grad school as well, andthen the four years in India helped me.
And how did it look fortaxes living abroad?
That's kind of, I'm just curious abouthow the, all the money flowed and how did
(24:49):
you pay us taxes or how did that work?
You will pay us taxes on any USincome that you have, so your
foreign income is excluded.
There's a 25 55 form the IRSwhere you can exclude your foreign
income as long as you earn.
I think it's less than,I don't know what it is.
It goes up every year, but it's around110 or something thousand dollars a year.
So you can exclude up to that amount.
(25:11):
So I was able to excludemost of my income.
And then just I had some, I.Real estate syndications in the
US that I'd also invested in.
And so I was only paying taxesin the US on those investments.
And as I mentioned in Singapore, Iwas having to pay Singapore taxes.
But usually if you pay taxes, there's adual taxation agreement between countries.
So I was paying 7%.
(25:33):
Taxes in Singapore, in India.
As part of my job, my employer actuallypaid my Indian taxes as part of a
benefit, so that was a huge benefit.
So basically I'm tax free other than,paying for my real estate syndication
tax, but I wasn't having to payany income tax in India or the us.
And then, in Bangkok, the first two yearsyou're in Thailand, you're tax free.
(25:55):
So I mean, even though I didn't get totake advantage of those tax advantaged
accounts, there were still so many morebenefits when you consider, the fact
that my rent's covered, the fact thatmy taxes are, low, if not anything.
Also just the fact that I haven'thad a car for all these years.
In Singapore, I tookthe subway super fast.
Thailand, I biked tomy school in New Delhi.
(26:18):
I had a driver who wouldpick me up each day.
Not like a personal hired full-timedriver, but he would just pick
me up for school every day.
So, that's made a hugedifference as well.
So you had the big three reallycovered other than food, you had
housing and transportation prettymuch covered, which enabled you to
get your savings rate or push it up.
It's amazing to me thatyou can do 60 to 90%.
that's quite incredible and stilltakes sabbaticals, travel the world.
(26:41):
you've led an incredible life.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And I guess I just want, listeners, whenthey're listening to this, to feel like
it's easy to maybe think, well, I havehad a lot of advantages and, everybody's
circumstances are completely different.
So whatever circumstances theyhave in their life, whatever levers
they can pull, , maybe it's goingto a lower cost of living area.
Maybe it's figuring out a wayto save some money in some area,
(27:01):
or maybe it's increasing their.
Income somehow.
Just to pull whatever levers they have.
I have had some incredible advantages.
But I'm so, grateful to be ableto live abroad and I wouldn't
have changed it for anything
when you got to retirement and youinvested, I presume probably, a
hundred percent stock index funds fora while, what did your nest egg look
like and how did that compare to thecost of living where you were living?
(27:23):
Your 4% rule?
Yeah, I'm spending lessthan 4% a year now.
So right now I think my current.
Nest or my current networth is around 1.2 million.
But I'm only spendingaround 30,000 a year.
Now, that's for me.
I'm not including my partner in that atall, like his nest egg or what he spends.
But we live a prettylavish lifestyle in Bali.
(27:44):
I feel, we've got a reallynice place where we're living.
We're about to move into a littlevilla, the rice patties but just
a very good quality of life.
It's nothing luxurious, but for meit's luxurious just because I have.
Time freedom because I've got naturearound me because I've got a great
community of, people around me.
So I am really spendingless than 4% a year.
(28:05):
And that makes me feel secure.
But also I really don't feellike I need anything else.
I am still traveling to theus, I'm traveling to Australia.
I'm going to a lot of five eventsevery year as much as I can.
There's not reallyanything else that I want.
Or need in my life.
I'm still going to yoga every dayand doing classes, I do , most
evenings there's some kind ofactivity I'm taking part in.
We're eating out almost all of our meals.
(28:27):
But it's pretty affordable there.
Certain things have gone up in Bali,like housing in particular, but most
other things there are very inexpensive.
I've got a scooter, I've got gasfor my scooter and eating out, all
of those classes and everythinglike that, that is not expensive.
So.
average cost of living there isstill a lot lower, and the quality
of life there is very good.
Well, Amy let's take a minute and talkabout sort of your turnaround point.
(28:49):
'cause you talked about the trauma, and you were great, great saver.
You were very frugal, but at some pointyou started putting the pieces together
to say, wow, I'm at the point whereI can become financially independent.
I can stop working.
like when did that light turnon where this financial stuff
(29:09):
started making sense for you?
I think when I was really burning out inBangkok and it was during the pandemic and
I was feeling quite isolated and, goinginto overwork to feel worthy basically.
I was.
Feeling insecure and how many, moreyears do I need to do this job?
And that's when I found the firemovement and really reading Vicki
Robbins book, your Money or YourLife really Made a difference to me.
(29:32):
I mean, really thinking about, , ifsomeone put a gun to my head and asked
me that question, it's kind of anextreme question, but your money or
your life, like what would I choose?
And really seeing that all of mylife I had been choosing money.
It wasn't serving me becauseI still didn't feel secure.
so really getting clearabout, what are my values?
(29:53):
How do I wanna spend my time?
What life do I love?
And that, led me back to mysabbatical years in Bali.
And I knew how much my life cost me there.
And so I knew that really Iwas close to being FIRE there.
And I just needed to,work a little bit longer.
I really did two years there and I.Was initially only gonna do one year.
but I did get one more yearsyndrome and I did a second year.
(30:14):
But that really helped secure me.
And I was also teaching summerschool when I was there too, so,
I was trying to pull those levers.
But yeah, thankfully the firemovement really saved me.
And then, seeing my father had astroke during that time toward the
end of the second year, and thatwas kinda like, okay, no more.
I'm ready to be able to spend more time inthe US and to go back to Bali and, live
that dream life that I've had before.
So how did you figure out you're enoughand what does enough mean to you?
(30:38):
To me enough means, , being able to dothe things that I love in my life, like
having enough in investments where I'mnot drawing, doing too fast on that.
So I want to be.
Not drawing more than 4%.
Personally, that justmakes me feel secure.
I know that Bill Bangin says youcan, withdraw 5%, but, truthfully,
in Bali, I don't need to withdraw 5%.
So there's no point in that.
But for me, enough actually looks like ona day-to-day basis living my life, well,
(31:04):
exercising, taking care of my physicalhealth, which I feel like so much of my
life, I was so focused on financial healthto the detriment of my physical health.
So for me enough is, having a communityof people around me that I love.
There's wealth in so manyways beyond just the finances.
It's, financial wealth, but also physicalhealth and wellbeing and the, community
(31:27):
that's brought to me in those ways,and then be able to pursue my passions.
Wow, so, At last year's, well, it would'vebeen, yeah, , was it the 2024 Economy?
You did this breakoutsession with Brad Barrett.
Talking about the one more year syndrome.
Got some amazing reviews.
I heard people talking about it.
So can you chat with us just a little biton what you discussed in that session?
(31:47):
Well, the brilliance of that sessionwas really, we gave people a lot of
time to talk to each other, andthat's what I bring into my retreats
too, is a lot of discussion.
There's a lot less.
Lecturing and people up talking to us.
But more time to journal, talk to yourpartner, get in accountability groups,
make a plan for your life kind of thing.
And Brad and I, we start off, we'vedone that session two years in a row
(32:08):
and we kick it off by telling our ownone more year syndrome story, which
Mana just briefly mentioned that, I wasgoing to Bangkok for one year actually.
Signed up for a second yearcontract, decided to pull out of
it 'cause I was really miserableand then re-signed up for it again.
So I had, a pretty extreme, one more yearsyndrome and it was very embarrassing
for me at the time to like break acontract and then they still wanted
(32:29):
me back and so luckily I was able to.
Go and end up finishing thatsecond year and that second
year ended up being much better.
But we both told our one more yearsyndrome story really quickly, and
then we gave people a lot of timein small groups of groups of four
people to share about what were theirstruggles, and not only struggles,
like what was holding them back?
What was their obstacle towardpulling the, retirement plug
(32:51):
and then , what was their dream?
, really getting excited about whatdoes their best year look like?
What is the opportunitycost of continuing to work?
Because I know for myself, I would alwaysfocus on, well, I'm able to save 90% here.
I'm able to save this much money, and thisis the money I'm losing if I don't work.
But what I wasn't focusing on enough,and I think a lot of other people in
that session were not focusing on enough.
(33:13):
It's like, what is the opportunity cost?
And what are the passionsthat I'm missing?
What are the people that, maybe myparents who are aging or my children
that I'm not getting to spend time with?
What are the trips that I wanna take?
So we really gave them a lotof time to not only talk about
obstacle, but also dream together.
And then a lot of them did create someaccountability groups and think about
(33:34):
checking in with each other laterand, make some commitments if they
were ready to pull the plug sooner.
Yeah, late startersstruggle with this too.
I'm in sort of the formerhere syndrome because I'm not
necessarily yet where I want to be.
We're about 80% of the way to PHIor our fat phi, whatever we need.
So that is a realityand burnout is reality.
(33:56):
We've had shows on burnout andyou hit burnout pretty hard.
And that was sort of part of, avery difficult year for you that
involved other things like your dad'sstroke and your dad's passing away.
But there were personal thingswith regards to, getting married.
Even that, you stumbledacross what happened there.
Yeah, so the, work burnout in Bangkokwas 2020 kind of pandemic period.
(34:18):
And then I did quit my job.
I moved to Bali.
I was going between Bali and the US 'causemy dad's health , still, wasn't very good.
I started the fi freedom retreat.
All of those things happened.
And then last year wasjust a horrible year.
So, even when we get our financesfigured out, it doesn't mean that
life is always easy and perfect.
And that's what I kind of alwaysimagined, if I can just get to this,
this arrival fallacy, if I could justget to FI, then it'll be so much easier.
(34:42):
But the reality is, sometimeslife is just hard.
And last year life was just hard.
So my father passed and I spent a lotof time in the US toward being with him
toward the end of his life, caregivingand then settling his, affairs and
funeral and going through his personalbelongings and , I was in charge of his
finances and that took a lot of time.
And I got back to Bali with only twoand a half months to plan my wedding.
(35:03):
And I thought, I can do this'cause I plan events in Bali
so that that'll be no problem.
And my mom.
Suddenly decided she wanted tocome, which I was excited about.
But she's 84 and chronically dizzy,and she has rheumatoid arthritis
and, it's a long journey for her.
And it added more anxiety to the wedding.
And the wedding venue we'd paidfor wasn't really suitable for her.
So I was trying, my sister had bookedher a flight, and it was a surprise
(35:27):
to me, but she wasn't in businessclass, which I feel like she needed
at her age and with her health issues.
So I spent a lot more time tryingto get her in mobility Scooter,
trying to get her in business.
And I was really planning thewedding up until, the last minute.
And then I got Denguefever before the wedding.
So it was a combination of a lot of badfactors, kind of compounding at once
(35:47):
and really allowed me, or it let me.
Spiral into, a mental healthcrisis and I say allowed me,
because there was a lot of.
Benefits to that.
But at the time it was horrible.
I mean, I wasn't able to function.
I was still trying to get thewedding together 'cause people were
flying in and they were landingand the wedding wasn't planned.
And I was pushing myself andI've always been a hard worker
(36:10):
and I've always been someone whopushed to, kind of get through.
But pushing myself togo out and do things.
And I was driving my scooter in unsafeways, trying to get this wedding together.
, and I couldn't even meet up withguests and I had to cancel the
wedding really, right before she flew.
That was my biggest concern.
And so she didn't fly, but I wasn't ableto really see most of the wedding guests
and that caused me a lot of shame thatthat many people would travel that far.
(36:32):
To see me get married and spendtheir, hard earned time and
money to come see me get married.
And I, couldn't see them, but itwas too many things all at once.
And I think, really a lot of grief frommy dad's passing, that was unprocessed.
And then that brought on alot of anxiety about my mom.
But in her age, , it just mademe realize how precious life was.
(36:52):
So it wasn't an easy period.
If money is a tool, did ithelp you with these travails?
It did.
It did.
I mean, it didn't solve everything,but it helped me a lot because
I threw money at the wall.
So I, got a lot of differenttherapy and I went through a lot of
different therapists and I found,I feel like the very best in Bali.
And there's great people from, Europe andAustralia and really amazing people there.
(37:14):
It's kind of the number one placethat people come in the world
for personal growth and healing.
So I went through a lotof different therapists.
I paid for a wedding thatI didn't actually have.
So last year was a veryexpensive year for me.
I definitely spent morethan $30,000 last year.
So it wasn't my average spend.
But just knowing that Ididn't have to get up.
Go to a job.
(37:34):
Like I couldn't have done itbecause I lost the ability to
function there for a while.
Like I was in such a state ofhigh anxiety that my brain wasn't
operating, I wasn't sleeping.
So it is such a gift 'cause I can'timagine going through something like
that and having to work every day.
I couldn't have done it.
I would've lost my job.
Well, Amy I'm sorry about your dad andI think it's beautiful the way you made
(37:56):
progress with your relationship with him.
'cause I know that must have beenhard, but it sounds like at the end
things were at a much better place.
And , as far as your partner what'sthe status of the wedding right now?
Well, I mean, it was a hard year onboth of us, and I thought, that it felt
like my whole life was falling apart.
(38:17):
Like, I wasn't able to call mymom my relationships to my family.
I really isolated and I think that maybefor me, when I'm really suffering,
I don't wanna reach out to anybody.
And so really during that time, my partnerwas kind of my sole source of support and.
Caretaking.
And so that was really hard on him.
So we've been through it in arelationship, but we've stuck together.
We made it out the other side.
(38:38):
We're gonna get marriednext year and I'm so
excited.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah.
wanna hear about this FI Freedom Retreats.
You've mentioned it a couple of times.
What motivated you to do this, and thenhow does it look to somebody that comes
(38:59):
and what kind of response have you seen?
Thank you.
I mean, I was motivated, during thepandemic, working in Bangkok, feeling a
sense of burnout going down the rabbithole with, all the fire podcasts, hearing
about economy and CampFI in the USand thinking about there's nothing on
this side of the world for community.
And I know there's a big.
Fire community in Australia,New Zealand, in Asia.
(39:19):
And I wanted to create an opportunityfor people not having to fly all the
way to the US to attend a fire event.
'cause I know there's so muchvalue in multi-day events.
A lot of times people don't getvulnerable with their numbers until
they've been together for multiple days.
That they'll really ask theharder questions and, get
the support they needed.
And then I went to my first CampFIand I really remember that so well
(39:41):
it was a CampFI, Southwest and Alma,who's just a saint, stayed up late
with me, counseling me through mymoney fears, and several people talked
with me that weekend about my numbers.
I just left my job at Bangkokand helped me to feel a lot
more secure about where I was.
So, going to these events in the USfurther that idea that I had in Bangkok,
that flame, that desire that I had togive back to the community to create
(40:04):
an opportunity in Asia and Australia.
And then also to bring Americansover to that side of the world.
'cause I know for myself,moving to Asia, living in Asia.
Traveling different parts of theworld has opened my eyes so much
to different ways of living.
There's something about going toa new place and being in a totally
different culture that really gaveme a whole new view of the world.
(40:26):
And so I also went in anopportunity for Americans to come
over to that side of the world.
So really this was a, passion project.
And then.
Also, I really wanted theBolonese people to benefit.
And, I've met some of my closest friendsin Bali, I've got great expat friends
from all over the world who live therelong term, but also incredible ese
people, and they're so warm in giving.
(40:47):
And so I really wanted to createan event that would benefit them.
So, I always have, two Boi speakersthat share a spot in my retreat.
They share one speaking spot and theyshare what they're doing in Bali to
lift up the society and the culture.
And so, and then I donate part ofmy proceeds to their organizations.
one man runs a ecotourism projectand we go visit his village.
(41:08):
It's all about sustainable tourism.
And he shows us about his organic garden,how they're reviving, the weaving for the
elderly women what they're doing to createincome sources for people who don't live
in the cities, who don't work in tourism.
And he's an incredible leader.
He's the, village chief.
They live in kind of tribal societies.
And then another woman who isworking with domestic violence
(41:29):
victims and she's already helpeda thousand women escape domestic
violence and 300 special needs kids.
She's basically helping all the people whofall through the cracks, , in Bali where
they don't have good government support.
Tell us about that charity becausewe want our audience to support
that and you've raised significantamounts of money for this and give
us the name where they can find itand maybe a little bit more about it.
(41:52):
Her name is Ibu, sorry.
And she's just the mostinspiring woman to me.
And even talking abouther, it makes me emotional.
'cause, her childhood was so difficultand she grew up in really abject poverty,
really struggling to have rice to eat.
And even the neighbors were telling herparents to sell her and her sister off to
prostitution when they were young girls.
But she wasn't sold offinto prostitution luckily.
(42:12):
But she was married at a veryyoung age and she faced domestic
violence, as a young, young woman.
And ended up escaping that.
But in the ESE society, the man keepsa child 'cause it's patriarchal.
And so she's really had her own struggles.
But through all that.
She's really got a passion to helpwomen escape domestic violence.
(42:33):
And so she started the PKP CommunityCenter in Bali, and it's really
a refuge for women and childrenand special needs kids there's
not special needs schools in Bali.
So a lot of times parents may have aspecial needs child, but they can't
care for them if they've gotta work.
And sometimes these kids are justlike locked inside the household day.
And so she's doing so much tosupport women and children in need.
(42:57):
And so last year I always donatepart of my proceeds the last two
years, but I'm always committedto giving away a free ticket.
And so I raffled off a ticket andthis was Rachel Richard's idea.
I'm super grateful for herto raffle off a ticket.
And I just was so impressed with the FIcommunity and this community, so generous
and caring, and really focused on givingback and, I got back from after my retreat
(43:18):
and we had raised some money on theretreat and I'd given her some money as
well, but I realized that she had thisland payment to make that was due at the
end of the year, and she was still $21,000away from making this land payment.
And she was gonna potentially lose herdown payment that she'd already paid
to him if she didn't make the payment.
And so, yeah, Rachel had the idea ofraffle off a free ticket and, I was
(43:39):
just gonna raise awareness otherwise,but this was a better way to do it.
And we ended up raising$22,000 in two weeks time, just
before the end of the year.
And then we put the raffle upand I recorded the whole thing.
And David and Ashley Robinson, who'd beento my retreat two years in a row, won it.
So they, get to come to FIFreedom retreats again, and
they're gonna do it next year.
They're not gonna come this year 'causeit doesn't work for their schedule.
(44:00):
So anybody who interests the raffle, theycan choose which year they wanna come.
But I wanna do that every yearbecause, even now that she's, got the
initial piece of land, she's wantingto create the special needs school
and she's got a building project todo, so it's gonna be an ongoing thing.
So I will have her come and speakat this year's retreat again, and
I wanna continue to support her.
Wow.
That kind of partnership is incredible.
(44:22):
I mean, , it makes what you'redoing with FI Freedom Retreats
sort of even more impactful
than just a sort of pilgrimage for folksto launch their own self-discovery.
Giving back is a big part ofthe FI movement, and I'm glad
to see that your community.
Feel so passionately as youdo about this PKP Center.
(44:44):
Yeah, so meaningful.
So you mentioned Rachel.
so what are the dates for 2025?
You're doing two retreatsthis year, is that right?
Yes, I am.
So it's September 11th through 15th,and that one sold out in eight minutes.
and because there were people on thewebsite who said I was trying to buy it
and I couldn't buy it then, I put on asecond event and this is the only year
(45:07):
that I'll do two events, but the secondone is September 26th through 30th.
That also sold out veryquickly on the same day.
So I will, do an event nextyear, and that'll also september's
the perfect month in Bali.
It's the end of the touristseason and it's also good weather.
So we're planning for thefifth, I think, next year.
It's September 11th through 15th.
So if listeners are interested
(45:28):
Yeah, I was about to say if they wannaget on the list, what do they do?
They should go to my website, FI FreedomRetreats with an S, so fi freedom
retreats.com and go down to the mailinglist because it will sell out very
quick, especially given I'm only havingone retreat from now on every year.
So I would highly suggest that theyget on the mailing list and that way
they'll know as soon as tickets launch.
(45:49):
And they do need to really be onlineexactly the time tickets launch.
And you have about 50 peoplecome to these retreats,
Yes.
Yeah.
And the thing I love about it toois when we go to Australia to see
my partner's family, every year wego to the FI meetups there as well.
And so I really trying to creatediverse events with, last year
I think we had 12 Aussies.
(46:11):
Five Canadians, two Indonesians.
And this year we've got some Kiwis coming.
We've got more Aussies, of course,more Canadians and so I'm really
trying to create a very diverse event.
So that's what makes it nice 'cause.
Even when I went to Australia, I wentto a meetup and there were nine people
from five Freedom Retreats there.
And a lot of times people gettogether and they travel together,
like before and after the retreat.
People tend to come and stay for longerif they're coming all the way to Bali.
(46:33):
But then even afterwards,they're meeting up to travel
all around the world together.
So it's because we spend moretime together, it's not only
the five days of the retreat,but it's the pre and post events.
And then we go to an island andpeople really develop strong bondship.
Strong friendships and bonds andthey really continue to stay in
touch and have their accountabilitygroups and travel together.
(46:54):
So that's what's really makes itnice is it's international, it's
very travel minded people and it'sa lot of people who are really
trying to live their best, life.
I.
Yeah, I mean, even Camp FI is doinga international retreat, so all these
things that have been local are expandingand becoming destination things.
We also have a friend, Kristen Nap,who's organizing trips down the Danube
(47:15):
and to Morocco for land-based tours.
So it's amazing.
And once people, Finish theirtraditional working lives.
They're giving back
with sort of these destinationphilosophical pilgrimages
where people really get to knoweach other and, creating adult
friendships is not that easy.
This is a great way to dothat in this community.
(47:36):
Getting together is so impactful.
Getting together with you at economy,it's one thing to do a virtual
visual, but to be able to giveyou a hug is much more meaningful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And just love it all.
And Amy, I am proud to say I'm thrilledto be coming to Volley with you.
I've been wanting to do the big trip eversince you talked about it two years ago.
(47:58):
This is year number three, right?
So I'll be one of the speakers,but also we've got two other ones.
And it's not so much about thespeakers, honestly, we are there.
To just be a part of the event as well.
And so you mentioned Rachel Ithink it's Rachel Money Honey.
So she's gonna be there as well.
This is her second time.
Yes.
(48:18):
And
and who's the other one?
Doc G is at the second event withyou, and I am so honored that
you're coming to both events.
Yeah.
It's
gonna be so much fun.
How cool is that, Jackie?
That you get two weeks in betweenthe two events to go and explore
the island, whatever you wanna do.
Snorkeling, scuba diving, hiking alittle bit, just relaxing on the beach.
(48:38):
There's so many things to do.
Explore waterfalls and lakes.
There's beautiful nature all around.
So,
And we're gonna have todo a podcast from Bali.
Yeah, we'll have to doa little bit of that.
I mean, it, did not takemuch convincing Amy.
Right.
But I'm one of those peoplethat have a little anxiety about
traveling international and I'mtrying to get more comfortable
with it because I actually love it.
But there's a lot of the in-between.
(49:00):
And Amy has agreed to hold myhand as you do all the attendees.
Right.
Yes, well, I've got it worked out where,I'm very detail oriented, so I've got
lots of checklists and we have lots ofpre retreat calls and so people really
feel like I. Their hand is held allalong the way and it's, just amazing
to see how people are transformed.
Like, I think about someone who came in myfirst year, Samantha, she was nervous to
(49:21):
travel to Asia and I remember there werea lot of phone calls before the event.
But then once she came over, Imean, she decided to go back
and, give her notice at work.
And then she'd been traveling aroundSouth America and she's still traveling.
Now she's in Europe, but she's beentraveling for months and, it's incredible
to see, and I think about Keith who cameover, never, been to Asia, and then, he's
spending multiple months every year, he'scoming back again his third time this
(49:44):
year to the retreat and so we get a lotof retreat returning participants because
of the community and because, we havesuch a good time pre and post retreat and
there's a lot of quality time together.
But I'm so glad that you're coming toboth events and then you'll be there
in between events, it's one thing tosee Bali's a tourist and to fly in and
out and kind of check all the places offyour list, but I feel like, I can show
(50:04):
people a side of Bali that they wouldn'tsee otherwise and, really show the
richness of the culture and the people.
And so that's what I'm excitedabout highlighting Bali.
Its people.
And I can tell you this, when I firstheard you talking about the retreat
that you were doing a couple of yearsago, I think it was on Choose Fi.
At first I thought that you livedin the US and you were just visiting
(50:26):
Bali, but when I found out you'd beenliving in Bali for nearly 20 years,
I'm like, this is a tour guide.
I want, this is theperfect person for this.
So it's just gonna be.
An amazing experience, paradise, butalso being with, you and all the other
attendee, meeting the Bolonese people,you making the retreat with all these
(50:49):
other people from other countries.
I just can't wait.
Like I am so excited about it.
A ME and I'm so glad youstarted this a couple years ago.
Well someday for.
Yeah.
Someday.
Yeah.
We gotta get Bill there.
He'll eventually get
there.
Well,
Phil.
yeah,
doing
a lot of, you're doing a lot oftravel though, which is good.
(51:09):
Yeah, we try and keep up with it.
for my 60th birthday, we'remaking an exodus to South Africa.
And for my wife's 60thbirthday, we went to Morocco.
So we're not, suffering by any means.
Right.
All Right.
Amy, this has been awesome.
We've learned a lot about your life,your passions, and your purpose.
You found your little ppurposes, Dr. Chi says
with the, these kinds of things.
(51:30):
So I just wanna thank you from the bottomour hearts here at catching up to five
for coming on and, giving us just thatinspiration that our audience needs.
Thank you so much and it's beensuch a honor to be on your show.
I mean, I've been listening tothis show from the very beginning.
Becky was on my first retreat and justseeing how it's grown so fast and it's
really feeling a need for so many people.
(51:50):
Who started late, and so thankyou for giving people hope
and the educational knowledge.
feel good about their path, toknow that, just starting today,
every day is a new day and theycan start wherever they're at.
But they're on their way.
Yeah.
And Amy, where can peoplefind you if they wanna learn?
Maybe just get a peek into thepast retreats, learn a little
bit more about the retreats.
We talked a little bit about ittoday, but you have some great
(52:13):
resources where you have shared a lotof what goes on during the retreat.
I.
So probably the best place is thewebsite about Page, 'cause the
about page you can see testimonialvideos from past participants.
You can see the highlights videofrom the 2023 and the 2024 retreat.
So that's the best place.
I'm also on Instagramas well as Facebook.
So those three places.
(52:34):
All right.
Well, it's been a great show.
We look forward to seeingyou in the very near future.
And maybe you'll come to Knoxvillejust like Jackie one day.
Yeah,
love it.
I would love
Well, you're always welcome,Well when we have guests, I
actually cook something good.
It's not quick.
it was
corn.
I made cornbread this time for
oh, I love
car.
(52:55):
given some of
that southern flavor.
I.
Alright guys.
Looking forward to seeingyou all again soon.
Thank you again, Amy,for joining us today.
We'll see you next week on Catching Up To
I'm only spending around 30,000 a year.
Now, that's for me.
I'm not including my partner in that atall, like his nest egg or what he spends.
But we live a prettylavish lifestyle in Bali.
I feel, we've got a reallynice place where we're living.
We're about to move into a littlevilla, the rice patties but just
a very good quality of life.
It's nothing luxurious, but for meit's luxurious just because I have.
(00:23):
Time freedom because I've got naturearound me because I've got a great
community of, people around me.
So I am really spendingless than 4% a year.
And that makes me feel secure.
But also I really don't feellike I need anything else.
I am still traveling to theus, I'm traveling to Australia.
I'm going to a lot of five eventsevery year as much as I can.
There's not reallyanything else that I want.
(00:44):
Or need in my life.
if someone put a gun to my head andasked me that question, it's kind of
an extreme question, but your money oryour life, like what would I choose?
And really seeing that all of mylife I had been choosing money.
It wasn't serving me becauseI still didn't feel secure.
so really getting clearabout, what are my values?
(01:06):
How do I wanna spend my time?
What life do I love?
And that, led me back to mysabbatical years in Bali.
And I knew how much my life cost me there.
And so I knew that really Iwas close to being FIRE there.
And I just needed to,work a little bit longer.
To me enough means, , being able to dothe things that I love in my life, like
(01:27):
having enough in investments where I'mnot drawing, doing too fast on that.
So I want to be.
Not drawing more than 4%.
Personally, that justmakes me feel secure.
I know that Bill Bangin says youcan, withdraw 5%, but, truthfully,
in Bali, I don't need to withdraw 5%.
So there's no point in that.
But for me, enough actually looks like ona day-to-day basis living my life, well,
(01:48):
exercising, taking care of my physicalhealth, which I feel like so much of my
life, I was so focused on financial healthto the detriment of my physical health.
So for me enough is, having a communityof people around me that I love.
(02:32):
Hello and welcome backto Catching Up to FI.
I'm Bill Yt with my beautifulco-host Jackie Cummings Koski, who
is downstairs in my house right now.
She's come down for a visit.
We just did a guest lecture yesterday atUniversity of Tennessee to agriculture
students and help them get their onto theright start with their personal finance.
(02:52):
It was a lot of fun and wentreally well, right Jackie?
Yeah, it really did.
And even though we technically were guestlecturers, which made us sound big time,
we were just having a lot of fun withthe kids we're giving away $2 bills.
We talked a lot about compoundgrowth and how we all wish we
could trade places with them.
So , it was a lot of fun.
And we got to see a littlebit of Knoxville, right.
What was the name of thatrestaurant we went to?
(03:14):
We went to.
Tupelo Honey,
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we wanna give ashout out to Dr. DeLong.
She brought us in she teaches in theAg School at University of Tennessee.
She is amazing and I don't findtoo many people with more energy
than me, but she's one of them.
She's won a bunch of teacher awardsand one of the reasons is she sort
(03:34):
of caters to her students and theirneeds, and it's really nice to see.
And this is not something, a part oftheir regular curriculum or programming.
So I really commend her for reachingout, bringing us in, and stressing
how important personal finances,'cause she did a little prep
session herself with the students.
So by the time we got there, itwas mainly juniors and seniors.
(03:57):
They were well versedon a lot of topics, but.
I love teachers like her.
She is how it should be teacher supportingstudents, not just in the classroom,
but also knowing that they're gonnasoon be out in that financial world,
We encourage our community to reach outor take every opportunity to do the same
thing at public schools or colleges.
(04:19):
you guys have the knowledgeto make a difference in.
People's lives.
But anyway, we need to jump into afantastic guest appearance today.
We've been trying to do this for a year.
Our guest today is Amy Minkley,but I'm gonna turn it over
to Jackie to introduce her.
Oh, I got to meet Amy at Economylast year, and she is amazing.
(04:41):
So thank you for connecting me with her.
So after working all over Asia for18 years as a hard charging Vagabond
teacher, our guest, Amy was burnedout to a crisp and a frantic bit to
save her sanity and relationship.
She googled.
We know it.
Financial independence andfound the fire movement and
(05:02):
down that rabbit hole she went.
A lot of us has done that.
So armed with knowledge of hundreds offire blogs podcast, Amy gained a new
sense of hope and she overcame the onemore year syndrome and quit her job.
In Bangkok, so I had thatone more year syndrome.
So in 2021, she moved to Balito live her dream life and
(05:25):
share the message of financialindependence and purposeful living.
She's the founder of PHI Freedom Retreats.
and you'll hear from her thisreally transformative pilgrimage
for five minded people.
And, this whole new journey was born.
So by the time this airs we will have seenAmy once again at the economy conference.
(05:47):
But we are so thrilled to be connectedwith this amazing woman that is gonna
talk to us a little bit more aboutthat treat as well as her own story.
So Amy, welcome to catching up to five.
Thank you for having me, Jackieand Bill, I'm so happy to be here.
Well, right now you're in Texas,in the state side with your mom
spending time with her, your partner'sback in Bali, organizing a house.
(06:11):
Your life is quite interesting, soyou've had some rough times in the
past, but how are you doing today?
Today I am doing great.
We just celebrated my mom's 84thbirthday recently, and I feel so blessed,
to have I. Time freedom, location.
You mentioned I was supposed tohave an interview with you last
year, but , my dad passed lastyear and my mom's aging a lot.
So to be able to come home andspend time with my mom, in her
(06:35):
eighties and my dad at the endof his life has been such a gift.
And that was part of the, impetusfor me to finally, finding the fire
movement but also my dad having astroke really helped to propel me to
finally walk away from those goldenhandcuffs that I had in Bangkok.
So I'm, doing great now and , I'm soblessed to be in the US and then to
head back to Bali at the end of themonth and, work on this villa that
(06:57):
we're organizing the rice patties,my partner and I. So I'm really
excited to set up life there as well.
Yeah, well We're gonna see you againat economy, and that's where I met you.
Originally, and you've been on a lotof pilgrimages and this all started
for you though, in your formativeyears when you were a kid because there
were some interesting messages aboutmoney and things that you learned,
(07:19):
and your growth and developmentat that time is sort of pivotal to
how things came full circle later.
Can you take us back to those times andsort of what you learned from parents
about money and what personal travailswent on in your life at that time?
Sure.
Yeah.
When I was a younger kid, I didn't worryabout money, but my mom was always frugal.
She was a coupon clipper.
(07:41):
she was a stay at home mom, andmy parents had four children.
I was the surprise at the end ofmy parents' life and much younger
than my three older sisters.
So I didn't ever feel any moneyinsecurity when I was much younger,
but I just knew that like I wasn't,allowed to have brand names.
We didn't, shop, we didn't eat out much.
We didn't go shopping much.
She was always very frugal.
(08:01):
And I think that came from her parents,But then when I was 12, my father left.
And my parents were married for 24 years.
It was quite a shock to the familybecause, I never saw them fight that.
I didn't know that they were havingany issues, but he kinda had the
classic midlife crisis where he.
Ran off with a younger woman andhe stopped paying child support.
So, we really went from having,financial security to not having money
(08:25):
really, and had to sell the familyhome, had to move to a different state
so my mom could go back to university.
She had never, I. Gotten her collegedegree before and she finished her
college degree when she was 54.
So it really caused her a lot of anxiety.
And really because my sisters were alloff at college, I became like almost like
a surrogate spouse where I really saw alot of those money fears that she had.
(08:47):
And, she was reading alot of financial books.
She didn't really knowanything about investing.
She had relied on my dad to do that orher husband to know about that and found
her in a. Like I said, probably a lot oflate starters are at where just kind of
at the point in their life where they'rekind of panicked, like, what have I done?
I haven't saved enough money.
But she went back to get her nursingdegree and then she worked a lot
of nights and weekends and, endedup actually in a better financial
(09:09):
position than my father was.
Just because she was a lot morefrugally minded than he ever was.
But yeah, , that had a huge impacton me because I. Even though I'm
the baby of the family, I actuallygot less support than my sisters.
My father had been married to mymother and helped pay for my sister's
school, but then by the time I got tocollege, I needed to pay for that.
And , I paid my rent and hadtwo jobs and took me five years.
(09:30):
But I managed to graduate debt freeand mostly 'cause I went to a state
school and I worked as an RA and I, justhustled a lot and, it was a lot cheaper
when I graduated as well, so I really.
Empathize with students nowadays'cause it is a lot more expensive
than it was when I went to school.
But there were a lotof lessons in that too.
Like even though it was a struggleand I lived in yucky apartments
(09:51):
that were the cheapest that I couldfind, I am so grateful for it.
'cause I learned how to budgetand I watched every penny.
But on the other hand, thosesame tactics that I had in my
younger years did not serve me.
Especially when I was burning outtamy job in Bangkok and I was in that
position of always thinking like,I need more money, I learned as a
child, money can disappear overnight.
(10:12):
You could be financially secureand then suddenly you're not.
And so there was, a lot of money,fears I had to work through and scarcity
mindset issues from my childhood thatno longer served me as I, came closer.
Tophi.
Now we've talked about money,trauma, and it certainly sounds
like you had both personal andmoney trauma, as did your mom.
And what's interesting is your storyresonates, I'm sure, well with Jackie
(10:34):
because it's very similar to her story.
And the story of yourmother resonates with me.
'cause my mom in herfifties had to go back.
Refresh her nursing degree andworked until she was 70 in order to
be financially independent, whichshe became, and that's one of the
biggest gifts she gave our family.
Wow.
And you know, Amy, I'm listening toyou talk about your single mom and how
resilient she was and the fact that eventhough you had a hard time, when your dad
(10:58):
left, I. You said your mom ended up doingbetter than your dad after she pulled it
all together and you got to watch that.
Yes.
Yeah, she did.
I mean she worked till she was 71 as well.
But she worked a lot of shifts andI mean and this makes me emotional
when I think about it, but Ijust really admire her so much.
'cause I know, to go back to schoolthat late in life and, she had to do
(11:19):
algebra and just her basic prerequisitesbefore she could, get her nursing
degree, it was so intimidating.
But she pulled it offand she did a great job.
And, , I'm so grateful for all the lessonsthat gave me and she taught me so much.
And even, my dad too, I mean, he passedaway last year and I have to hand it to
him as well because, for 25 years he.
Was kind of in denial about theimpact he had on the family.
(11:42):
But then later in his life, he camearound and he paid her, I think it was
$88,000 of back child support, thathe owed her , just after doing the
Landmark Forum, a, a transformationalcourse that had a big impact on his life.
And then he apologized toeveryone in the family, and really
he made it right in the end.
And so
I'm grateful to him as well.
Mm-hmm.
that's a beautiful thing and you madethat piece before he passed away.
(12:03):
And being financially minded, I dothink about the mechanics as well.
So when you said, your dad left.
And he stopped paying child support.
I'm like, well, did the mom everget back that child support?
And she did.
So, that's great to hear becauseshe had to struggle so hard and she
finally got what, belonged to her.
And I always say parents sometimeswill do for their kids what
(12:25):
they won't do for themselves.
So you very well may have been,the motivation for her to work as
hard as she did and do what shedid to make sure you was okay.
What's interesting is yourdad was a lawyer, right?
And he was bit of a late starterand wasn't as financially well
off, even though he had much moreof a significant income, right?
Yeah, and I just wanna clarify.
I said that he stopped paying childsupport, but I should be more clear that
(12:47):
it was just more sporadic child support.
It's not that he never paidever again but it wasn't what
the court ordered him to pay.
So my dad was an adventurous,he was very spon.
he would do things like move to Hondurasfor a couple years or then he moved
to the Micronesia for a few years andso he was just changing jobs a lot.
He wasn't very detail oriented, sohe often didn't bill his clients.
(13:08):
He was a very dedicated lawyer and hewas very aggressive in the courtroom.
Like he could argue hard, but hewasn't detail oriented when it
actually came to his bookkeeping.
And, he spent a lot of money.
He loved traveling and scuba divingand skiing and that kind of thing.
So it's interesting that my mom justwas much more meticulous and, saving.
Yeah, that's interesting becauseit sounds like you got a bit
(13:29):
of a travel bug from him.
Right.
And let's maybe migrate into thatbecause I think I remember that you
majored in history and you weren'tsure where that was gonna go after
college, but where did it go?
What happened next?
Well, truthfully, I just studied what Iloved and I would sit in history classes
and just take pages of notes and was litup and would, watch documentaries on tv.
(13:50):
So that's what I loved.
And at that time my momwas in college and just.
Too busy to really thinkabout directing me very much.
And my dad wasn't as involved as well.
So, no one came to me and said, well,that doesn't really make much sense to
study history, a liberal arts degree.
But I studied what I loved andit ended up working out for me.
I mean, it's not alwaysthe case for everyone.
But I went abroad to Japan toteach English at Japanese high
(14:11):
schools and that was so much fun.
And I discovered mylove of teaching there.
I mean, I was.
Only teaching Japanese kids in governmentschools, but that time the Japanese
government paid, flights over, fullhousing and I was able to save money and
I was with a lot of young people from allover the English speaking world, Brits
and Australians and, we all lived kindof close together and it was just kind
(14:33):
of an extension of college in a way.
But.
That was a really fun experience andI was able to save about $20,000.
I mean, this was 2005 when I left,so I was there for four years.
Not a lot of money, but it gave meenough money to travel around Southeast
Asia and South Asia and Europe.
I spent about eight months travelingand then I had still some money
left over to go back to gradschool, and I was able to get.
(14:55):
Through grad school withonly $11,000 of debt.
'cause I was working as agraduate teaching fellow and
I was , living in a co-op.
So that was pretty affordable.
So it was still really, it didn't haveto buy furniture or anything like that.
Still really, living on the cheap.
So I'm grateful for that job and that.
Which job really opened my eyes to theworld and traveling and teaching abroad.
And I thought when I moved to Japan, Imight stay abroad a year or two and I
(15:17):
never imagined that was 2001, that I wouldbe abroad this over two decades later.
Oh my gosh.
I think I'm jealous already.
So Amy, when you got that firstteaching job in Japan in 2005, do
you know about what your salarywas for that first teaching job?
Oh gosh.
I mean, I'd have to think back.
So I was hired in 2001.
(15:37):
It wasn't much.
But I saved 5,000 USDA year, andthat wasn't a whole lot, but
it was also , 25 years ago.
Right.
So, I can't remember exactly,but all my housing was covered,
so that made a huge difference.
And I mean, I traveled every holidayI had as well, but we pretty much
traveled on the cheap with my friends.
The friends I met in Japan, those arestill some of my closest friends today.
(15:58):
I had the best time of my life.
It was one of the veryhappiest times of my life.
So even though it didn't pay as wellas international schools working
in Japanese government school,it still paid well at the time.
And for being a fresh college gradwith a history degree, basically,
Yeah, and, well, especially if youfactor in the housing stuff, that's
typically the largest expense there is.
(16:20):
So you get to do all this travelingand you're in a fabulous country and
you have a lot of disposable income,but you're still saving something.
I absolutely loved it, and I would neverregret that for any amount of time.
I mean, the international school jobsthat I had after Japan, I worked in
Singapore and India and Thailand.
Those all paid much higher thanthe Japan job, but I would say
(16:43):
my happiest years were in Japan.
Well, so mentioned that you're verytransparent about your numbers and sort of
let's go through them because you Retiredearly, actually in the end of the day.
And somehow you got the finances right.
And what does that mean?
What was sort of your peakincome and what did you save?
(17:05):
And then, let's take us through sortof that progression to when I think you
retired at 45 or something like that.
Yes.
So after I got my grad degree, andI was very lucky to get a job at an
international school in Singapore.
Someone I knew that I workedwith in Japan was working there,
so that helped me out a lot.
But I was able to pay off that$11,000 of graduate student debt
(17:25):
in four months in Singapore.
So that was huge.
I thought it was gonnatake me years to pay off.
I assumed I was gonnateach in the US first.
And in Singapore, my salarycontinued to go up there.
I saved, about 60% ofmy income in Singapore.
And , it continued, it increasedlike the first couple of years.
I think I only saved 35% of my income,but then over time I think it averaged
out to be around 60% of my income.
(17:47):
I was there for six years and Iabsolutely loved my time in Singapore.
International schools were a lot morebusy than my teaching job in Japan.
But it's a very.
Convenient, easy country to travel in.
You never get tired ofliving in Singapore.
Really.
It's so clean and efficient andit's a great jumping off point
to lots of countries in SoutheastAsia, and the, pay is quite high
(18:07):
to all the neighboring countries.
So your money goes quite far.
And , the income tax of thetime, is taxed in Singapore
dollars was only around 7%.
So it was really in.
There as well.
My housing was mostly covered, I think itwas around 80% covered, and I basically
house hacked by renting out my other room.
And so then that covered up the restof the, housing costs plus the bills.
(18:27):
So that really made a difference.
So I was there for six years andthen I went to India and I was
working in an embassy school there.
And the great thing about thatschool, it was an American school
and, they paid into social security.
I had lots of extra benefitsthey wouldn't have had.
Just being able to be partof like an American system.
And that school, I was also able tosave about 60% of my income because
(18:48):
my housing was fully covered there.
I mean, it's a four bedroom, four bath,beautiful place with marble floors, just
really, because it's India, they workreally hard to make it easier on people.
They would paint it, if you wantedto change the paint color, just.
Choose your color, they'llcome over and paint.
They just, they were so good aboutmaintenance and, everything, just trying
to make it really, really comfortable.
(19:09):
So I stayed four years in New Delhiand then, , I was wanting to take
another sabbatical year 'cause I'ddone that after Japan and traveled
and I had planned to go around Africaand I was really excited about that.
took it year off and Iwas passing through Bali.
I just was doing a personal growth courseat the time, and I ended up really seeing,
there was still a lot of pain that Iwas carrying from childhood, from this
(19:30):
feeling of abandonment with my father.
And really, I'd been single for, Ithink around 16 years at that point.
And I'd always kind of had thisstory of, I'm strong and I'm
independent and I don't need a man.
But I realized it was aprotective mechanism because.
Ultimately I felt, that just kindof like my father had run off with
a younger woman that, I didn't wannabe vulnerable like my mother was.
(19:50):
And I did a lot of work around that inBali and it was a huge impact on my life.
And I ended up staying in,volunteering for this woman who
was running these retreats in Bali.
And during that time I met Matthew, and I think it was because of a
lot of the healing work I had done.
With her around my distrustof, men and my childhood.
And so I ended up stayingin Bali and realizing that's
(20:11):
what I needed on my year off.
It wasn't to travel around like I haddone in 2005 after living in Japan.
What I needed in this was 2017was just to stay in one place.
That was Bali and I, loved it.
Just being, having a routine everyday, getting up, doing yoga, having
deep friendships and deep relationshipsinstead of always being on the go.
I really discovered that that wasa place that I wanted to live.
(20:33):
And I'd been there lots of timesas a tourist living in Asia,
but I'd never really saw thecommunity people that lived there.
And so that was, , my most joyousyears besides Japan, really.
But then I got scared about money, so thenI went back to international teaching.
Well, you said you saved significantamounts of money, and then you
talked about , in one of your CampPhy talks, the progression there.
(20:54):
I'm kind of curious because younever earned more than, five figures.
You never earned more than sixfigures, and you were able to retire.
Comfortably in your forties.
Tell us how you did that,because our audience wants to
know how to do it themselves.
I mean, I think it's good no matter, likeone thing to think about is geo arbitrage.
If it's possible for audiencemembers, and I know not everybody
is a teacher, but sometimes dependingon their profession, if it is.
(21:18):
Possible to live in a lower cost ofliving part of the US or find a way
to earn money in a higher salary.
Maybe you've got a job in SanFrancisco, but you're able to work
remote or something like that.
Or matter your profession, maybeyou're able to get a posting abroad.
There are a lot of companies that do that.
But definitely, I was very savingsfocused and a lot of that was
(21:38):
coming from a childhood wound.
A lot of it wasn't coming from a healthyplace, and it wasn't because I was smart,
but it was just seeing my mom read allthese, finance books when I was younger
in a frantic bid to like save herself.
That put that into my mind of, savingmoney, putting it into index funds.
And I had read when I was in high school,a book called Girls Just Wanna Have Funds,
(21:59):
which was a play on the city law song.
Yeah, I've
um, yeah.
And so then, I mean, I knew toinvest in index funds and so I
was doing that all along the way.
And then, really.
I left Bali and I was really happythere, but I dragged my partner
to Bangkok for this to go backto international school teaching.
I ended up taking two years in Bali.
(22:20):
My network hadn't gone down, but Ijust didn't feel like I had enough.
And so I went back to Bangkok and itprobably was good that I went back
because that was my highest earning everand I earned about 90,000 a year there
and I was able to save 90% of that.
I. Because the housing was covered,I didn't have to, furnish the place
and annual flights home and all of theshipping and everything's included.
And it was the pandemic.
(22:40):
So there wasn't a whole lot tospend money on as well, and I was
just trying to get in and get out.
As far as savings goes, I. I was there fortwo years, so that really helped as well.
Those two years boosted my savings.
But I was, especially the first year,I wasn't very happy 'cause I really
saw that I was kind of giving up mydream life and I was chasing money and
that I was burning myself out, workingall the time and kind of feeling like
(23:03):
an imposter in this school that it'sreally hard to get into those schools.
And so my whole.
Method for dealing with that is justto work harder than anybody, stay
up late lesson plan all the time.
And my partner thought, who are you?
I knew you before you were bowling Amy.
You were free and happy, and now you'rein Bangkok and you're just a workaholic.
And yeah, really stressed out person.
(23:24):
So I have a question, Amy.
My question is around theinvestment and the savings vehicles.
So you're in another country.
Did they have the same type oflike employer sponsored retirement
plans that they have in the us?
How was that different?
A lot of the schools do have,I mean, it really depends on
international school, by internationalschool, but it's not uncommon.
(23:45):
I had at one school, I think12% matching, which was pretty
incredible.
But then just I'm not able to do,4 0 1 Ks or anything like that.
And even a Roth IRA, because I don't haveUS earned income, so I was always putting
it in just non-tax advantaged accounts.
Just regular brokerage accounts.
There were some years that I didearn in the US and so I do have
(24:08):
a Roth, but otherwise I don'thave like a traditional account.
And I have less money in social securitythan most people because, other than
my four years in India and then theyears that I worked, when I was in grad
school and undergrad and high school,I don't have as many high earning years
for sure compared to most people thatI would've done for Social security.
But you managed to get yourcredits and you will receive
(24:29):
social security at that time.
I was
Yes.
Yeah, I have got my credits
So those
are the 10 years, is it?
yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I started working at 16 andI worked all through college as well,
and then in grad school as well, andthen the four years in India helped me.
And how did it look fortaxes living abroad?
That's kind of, I'm just curious abouthow the, all the money flowed and how did
(24:49):
you pay us taxes or how did that work?
You will pay us taxes on any USincome that you have, so your
foreign income is excluded.
There's a 25 55 form the IRSwhere you can exclude your foreign
income as long as you earn.
I think it's less than,I don't know what it is.
It goes up every year, but it's around110 or something thousand dollars a year.
So you can exclude up to that amount.
(25:11):
So I was able to excludemost of my income.
And then just I had some, I.Real estate syndications in the
US that I'd also invested in.
And so I was only paying taxesin the US on those investments.
And as I mentioned in Singapore, Iwas having to pay Singapore taxes.
But usually if you pay taxes, there's adual taxation agreement between countries.
So I was paying 7%.
(25:33):
Taxes in Singapore, in India.
As part of my job, my employer actuallypaid my Indian taxes as part of a
benefit, so that was a huge benefit.
So basically I'm tax free other than,paying for my real estate syndication
tax, but I wasn't having to payany income tax in India or the us.
And then, in Bangkok, the first two yearsyou're in Thailand, you're tax free.
(25:55):
So I mean, even though I didn't get totake advantage of those tax advantaged
accounts, there were still so many morebenefits when you consider, the fact
that my rent's covered, the fact thatmy taxes are, low, if not anything.
Also just the fact that I haven'thad a car for all these years.
In Singapore, I tookthe subway super fast.
Thailand, I biked tomy school in New Delhi.
(26:18):
I had a driver who wouldpick me up each day.
Not like a personal hired full-timedriver, but he would just pick
me up for school every day.
So, that's made a hugedifference as well.
So you had the big three reallycovered other than food, you had
housing and transportation prettymuch covered, which enabled you to
get your savings rate or push it up.
It's amazing to me thatyou can do 60 to 90%.
that's quite incredible and stilltakes sabbaticals, travel the world.
(26:41):
you've led an incredible life.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And I guess I just want, listeners, whenthey're listening to this, to feel like
it's easy to maybe think, well, I havehad a lot of advantages and, everybody's
circumstances are completely different.
So whatever circumstances theyhave in their life, whatever levers
they can pull, , maybe it's goingto a lower cost of living area.
Maybe it's figuring out a wayto save some money in some area,
(27:01):
or maybe it's increasing their.
Income somehow.
Just to pull whatever levers they have.
I have had some incredible advantages.
But I'm so, grateful to be ableto live abroad and I wouldn't
have changed it for anything
when you got to retirement and youinvested, I presume probably, a
hundred percent stock index funds fora while, what did your nest egg look
like and how did that compare to thecost of living where you were living?
(27:23):
Your 4% rule?
Yeah, I'm spending lessthan 4% a year now.
So right now I think my current.
Nest or my current networth is around 1.2 million.
But I'm only spendingaround 30,000 a year.
Now, that's for me.
I'm not including my partner in that atall, like his nest egg or what he spends.
But we live a prettylavish lifestyle in Bali.
(27:44):
I feel, we've got a reallynice place where we're living.
We're about to move into a littlevilla, the rice patties but just
a very good quality of life.
It's nothing luxurious, but for meit's luxurious just because I have.
Time freedom because I've got naturearound me because I've got a great
community of, people around me.
So I am really spendingless than 4% a year.
(28:05):
And that makes me feel secure.
But also I really don't feellike I need anything else.
I am still traveling to theus, I'm traveling to Australia.
I'm going to a lot of five eventsevery year as much as I can.
There's not reallyanything else that I want.
Or need in my life.
I'm still going to yoga every dayand doing classes, I do , most
evenings there's some kind ofactivity I'm taking part in.
We're eating out almost all of our meals.
(28:27):
But it's pretty affordable there.
Certain things have gone up in Bali,like housing in particular, but most
other things there are very inexpensive.
I've got a scooter, I've got gasfor my scooter and eating out, all
of those classes and everythinglike that, that is not expensive.
So.
average cost of living there isstill a lot lower, and the quality
of life there is very good.
Well, Amy let's take a minute and talkabout sort of your turnaround point.
(28:49):
'cause you talked about the trauma, and you were great, great saver.
You were very frugal, but at some pointyou started putting the pieces together
to say, wow, I'm at the point whereI can become financially independent.
I can stop working.
like when did that light turnon where this financial stuff
(29:09):
started making sense for you?
I think when I was really burning out inBangkok and it was during the pandemic and
I was feeling quite isolated and, goinginto overwork to feel worthy basically.
I was.
Feeling insecure and how many, moreyears do I need to do this job?
And that's when I found the firemovement and really reading Vicki
Robbins book, your Money or YourLife really Made a difference to me.
(29:32):
I mean, really thinking about, , ifsomeone put a gun to my head and asked
me that question, it's kind of anextreme question, but your money or
your life, like what would I choose?
And really seeing that all of mylife I had been choosing money.
It wasn't serving me becauseI still didn't feel secure.
so really getting clearabout, what are my values?
(29:53):
How do I wanna spend my time?
What life do I love?
And that, led me back to mysabbatical years in Bali.
And I knew how much my life cost me there.
And so I knew that really Iwas close to being FIRE there.
And I just needed to,work a little bit longer.
I really did two years there and I.Was initially only gonna do one year.
but I did get one more yearsyndrome and I did a second year.
(30:14):
But that really helped secure me.
And I was also teaching summerschool when I was there too, so,
I was trying to pull those levers.
But yeah, thankfully the firemovement really saved me.
And then, seeing my father had astroke during that time toward the
end of the second year, and thatwas kinda like, okay, no more.
I'm ready to be able to spend more time inthe US and to go back to Bali and, live
that dream life that I've had before.
So how did you figure out you're enoughand what does enough mean to you?
(30:38):
To me enough means, , being able to dothe things that I love in my life, like
having enough in investments where I'mnot drawing, doing too fast on that.
So I want to be.
Not drawing more than 4%.
Personally, that justmakes me feel secure.
I know that Bill Bangin says youcan, withdraw 5%, but, truthfully,
in Bali, I don't need to withdraw 5%.
So there's no point in that.
But for me, enough actually looks like ona day-to-day basis living my life, well,
(31:04):
exercising, taking care of my physicalhealth, which I feel like so much of my
life, I was so focused on financial healthto the detriment of my physical health.
So for me enough is, having a communityof people around me that I love.
There's wealth in so manyways beyond just the finances.
It's, financial wealth, but also physicalhealth and wellbeing and the, community
(31:27):
that's brought to me in those ways,and then be able to pursue my passions.
Wow, so, At last year's, well, it would'vebeen, yeah, , was it the 2024 Economy?
You did this breakoutsession with Brad Barrett.
Talking about the one more year syndrome.
Got some amazing reviews.
I heard people talking about it.
So can you chat with us just a little biton what you discussed in that session?
(31:47):
Well, the brilliance of that sessionwas really, we gave people a lot of
time to talk to each other, andthat's what I bring into my retreats
too, is a lot of discussion.
There's a lot less.
Lecturing and people up talking to us.
But more time to journal, talk to yourpartner, get in accountability groups,
make a plan for your life kind of thing.
And Brad and I, we start off, we'vedone that session two years in a row
(32:08):
and we kick it off by telling our ownone more year syndrome story, which
Mana just briefly mentioned that, I wasgoing to Bangkok for one year actually.
Signed up for a second yearcontract, decided to pull out of
it 'cause I was really miserableand then re-signed up for it again.
So I had, a pretty extreme, one more yearsyndrome and it was very embarrassing
for me at the time to like break acontract and then they still wanted
(32:29):
me back and so luckily I was able to.
Go and end up finishing thatsecond year and that second
year ended up being much better.
But we both told our one more yearsyndrome story really quickly, and
then we gave people a lot of timein small groups of groups of four
people to share about what were theirstruggles, and not only struggles,
like what was holding them back?
What was their obstacle towardpulling the, retirement plug
(32:51):
and then , what was their dream?
, really getting excited about whatdoes their best year look like?
What is the opportunitycost of continuing to work?
Because I know for myself, I would alwaysfocus on, well, I'm able to save 90% here.
I'm able to save this much money, and thisis the money I'm losing if I don't work.
But what I wasn't focusing on enough,and I think a lot of other people in
that session were not focusing on enough.
(33:13):
It's like, what is the opportunity cost?
And what are the passionsthat I'm missing?
What are the people that, maybe myparents who are aging or my children
that I'm not getting to spend time with?
What are the trips that I wanna take?
So we really gave them a lotof time to not only talk about
obstacle, but also dream together.
And then a lot of them did create someaccountability groups and think about
(33:34):
checking in with each other laterand, make some commitments if they
were ready to pull the plug sooner.
Yeah, late startersstruggle with this too.
I'm in sort of the formerhere syndrome because I'm not
necessarily yet where I want to be.
We're about 80% of the way to PHIor our fat phi, whatever we need.
So that is a realityand burnout is reality.
(33:56):
We've had shows on burnout andyou hit burnout pretty hard.
And that was sort of part of, avery difficult year for you that
involved other things like your dad'sstroke and your dad's passing away.
But there were personal thingswith regards to, getting married.
Even that, you stumbledacross what happened there.
Yeah, so the, work burnout in Bangkokwas 2020 kind of pandemic period.
(34:18):
And then I did quit my job.
I moved to Bali.
I was going between Bali and the US 'causemy dad's health , still, wasn't very good.
I started the fi freedom retreat.
All of those things happened.
And then last year wasjust a horrible year.
So, even when we get our financesfigured out, it doesn't mean that
life is always easy and perfect.
And that's what I kind of alwaysimagined, if I can just get to this,
this arrival fallacy, if I could justget to FI, then it'll be so much easier.
(34:42):
But the reality is, sometimeslife is just hard.
And last year life was just hard.
So my father passed and I spent a lotof time in the US toward being with him
toward the end of his life, caregivingand then settling his, affairs and
funeral and going through his personalbelongings and , I was in charge of his
finances and that took a lot of time.
And I got back to Bali with only twoand a half months to plan my wedding.
(35:03):
And I thought, I can do this'cause I plan events in Bali
so that that'll be no problem.
And my mom.
Suddenly decided she wanted tocome, which I was excited about.
But she's 84 and chronically dizzy,and she has rheumatoid arthritis
and, it's a long journey for her.
And it added more anxiety to the wedding.
And the wedding venue we'd paidfor wasn't really suitable for her.
So I was trying, my sister had bookedher a flight, and it was a surprise
(35:27):
to me, but she wasn't in businessclass, which I feel like she needed
at her age and with her health issues.
So I spent a lot more time tryingto get her in mobility Scooter,
trying to get her in business.
And I was really planning thewedding up until, the last minute.
And then I got Denguefever before the wedding.
So it was a combination of a lot of badfactors, kind of compounding at once
(35:47):
and really allowed me, or it let me.
Spiral into, a mental healthcrisis and I say allowed me,
because there was a lot of.
Benefits to that.
But at the time it was horrible.
I mean, I wasn't able to function.
I was still trying to get thewedding together 'cause people were
flying in and they were landingand the wedding wasn't planned.
And I was pushing myself andI've always been a hard worker
(36:10):
and I've always been someone whopushed to, kind of get through.
But pushing myself togo out and do things.
And I was driving my scooter in unsafeways, trying to get this wedding together.
, and I couldn't even meet up withguests and I had to cancel the
wedding really, right before she flew.
That was my biggest concern.
And so she didn't fly, but I wasn't ableto really see most of the wedding guests
and that caused me a lot of shame thatthat many people would travel that far.
(36:32):
To see me get married and spendtheir, hard earned time and
money to come see me get married.
And I, couldn't see them, but itwas too many things all at once.
And I think, really a lot of grief frommy dad's passing, that was unprocessed.
And then that brought on alot of anxiety about my mom.
But in her age, , it just mademe realize how precious life was.
(36:52):
So it wasn't an easy period.
If money is a tool, did ithelp you with these travails?
It did.
It did.
I mean, it didn't solve everything,but it helped me a lot because
I threw money at the wall.
So I, got a lot of differenttherapy and I went through a lot of
different therapists and I found,I feel like the very best in Bali.
And there's great people from, Europe andAustralia and really amazing people there.
(37:14):
It's kind of the number one placethat people come in the world
for personal growth and healing.
So I went through a lotof different therapists.
I paid for a wedding thatI didn't actually have.
So last year was a veryexpensive year for me.
I definitely spent morethan $30,000 last year.
So it wasn't my average spend.
But just knowing that Ididn't have to get up.
Go to a job.
(37:34):
Like I couldn't have done itbecause I lost the ability to
function there for a while.
Like I was in such a state ofhigh anxiety that my brain wasn't
operating, I wasn't sleeping.
So it is such a gift 'cause I can'timagine going through something like
that and having to work every day.
I couldn't have done it.
I would've lost my job.
Well, Amy I'm sorry about your dad andI think it's beautiful the way you made
(37:56):
progress with your relationship with him.
'cause I know that must have beenhard, but it sounds like at the end
things were at a much better place.
And , as far as your partner what'sthe status of the wedding right now?
Well, I mean, it was a hard year onboth of us, and I thought, that it felt
like my whole life was falling apart.
(38:17):
Like, I wasn't able to call mymom my relationships to my family.
I really isolated and I think that maybefor me, when I'm really suffering,
I don't wanna reach out to anybody.
And so really during that time, my partnerwas kind of my sole source of support and.
Caretaking.
And so that was really hard on him.
So we've been through it in arelationship, but we've stuck together.
We made it out the other side.
(38:38):
We're gonna get marriednext year and I'm so
excited.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah.
wanna hear about this FI Freedom Retreats.
You've mentioned it a couple of times.
What motivated you to do this, and thenhow does it look to somebody that comes
(38:59):
and what kind of response have you seen?
Thank you.
I mean, I was motivated, during thepandemic, working in Bangkok, feeling a
sense of burnout going down the rabbithole with, all the fire podcasts, hearing
about economy and CampFI in the USand thinking about there's nothing on
this side of the world for community.
And I know there's a big.
Fire community in Australia,New Zealand, in Asia.
(39:19):
And I wanted to create an opportunityfor people not having to fly all the
way to the US to attend a fire event.
'cause I know there's so muchvalue in multi-day events.
A lot of times people don't getvulnerable with their numbers until
they've been together for multiple days.
That they'll really ask theharder questions and, get
the support they needed.
And then I went to my first CampFIand I really remember that so well
(39:41):
it was a CampFI, Southwest and Alma,who's just a saint, stayed up late
with me, counseling me through mymoney fears, and several people talked
with me that weekend about my numbers.
I just left my job at Bangkokand helped me to feel a lot
more secure about where I was.
So, going to these events in the USfurther that idea that I had in Bangkok,
that flame, that desire that I had togive back to the community to create
(40:04):
an opportunity in Asia and Australia.
And then also to bring Americansover to that side of the world.
'cause I know for myself,moving to Asia, living in Asia.
Traveling different parts of theworld has opened my eyes so much
to different ways of living.
There's something about going toa new place and being in a totally
different culture that really gaveme a whole new view of the world.
(40:26):
And so I also went in anopportunity for Americans to come
over to that side of the world.
So really this was a, passion project.
And then.
Also, I really wanted theBolonese people to benefit.
And, I've met some of my closest friendsin Bali, I've got great expat friends
from all over the world who live therelong term, but also incredible ese
people, and they're so warm in giving.
(40:47):
And so I really wanted to createan event that would benefit them.
So, I always have, two Boi speakersthat share a spot in my retreat.
They share one speaking spot and theyshare what they're doing in Bali to
lift up the society and the culture.
And so, and then I donate part ofmy proceeds to their organizations.
one man runs a ecotourism projectand we go visit his village.
(41:08):
It's all about sustainable tourism.
And he shows us about his organic garden,how they're reviving, the weaving for the
elderly women what they're doing to createincome sources for people who don't live
in the cities, who don't work in tourism.
And he's an incredible leader.
He's the, village chief.
They live in kind of tribal societies.
And then another woman who isworking with domestic violence
(41:29):
victims and she's already helpeda thousand women escape domestic
violence and 300 special needs kids.
She's basically helping all the people whofall through the cracks, , in Bali where
they don't have good government support.
Tell us about that charity becausewe want our audience to support
that and you've raised significantamounts of money for this and give
us the name where they can find itand maybe a little bit more about it.
(41:52):
Her name is Ibu, sorry.
And she's just the mostinspiring woman to me.
And even talking abouther, it makes me emotional.
'cause, her childhood was so difficultand she grew up in really abject poverty,
really struggling to have rice to eat.
And even the neighbors were telling herparents to sell her and her sister off to
prostitution when they were young girls.
But she wasn't sold offinto prostitution luckily.
(42:12):
But she was married at a veryyoung age and she faced domestic
violence, as a young, young woman.
And ended up escaping that.
But in the ESE society, the man keepsa child 'cause it's patriarchal.
And so she's really had her own struggles.
But through all that.
She's really got a passion to helpwomen escape domestic violence.
(42:33):
And so she started the PKP CommunityCenter in Bali, and it's really
a refuge for women and childrenand special needs kids there's
not special needs schools in Bali.
So a lot of times parents may have aspecial needs child, but they can't
care for them if they've gotta work.
And sometimes these kids are justlike locked inside the household day.
And so she's doing so much tosupport women and children in need.
(42:57):
And so last year I always donatepart of my proceeds the last two
years, but I'm always committedto giving away a free ticket.
And so I raffled off a ticket andthis was Rachel Richard's idea.
I'm super grateful for herto raffle off a ticket.
And I just was so impressed with the FIcommunity and this community, so generous
and caring, and really focused on givingback and, I got back from after my retreat
(43:18):
and we had raised some money on theretreat and I'd given her some money as
well, but I realized that she had thisland payment to make that was due at the
end of the year, and she was still $21,000away from making this land payment.
And she was gonna potentially lose herdown payment that she'd already paid
to him if she didn't make the payment.
And so, yeah, Rachel had the idea ofraffle off a free ticket and, I was
(43:39):
just gonna raise awareness otherwise,but this was a better way to do it.
And we ended up raising$22,000 in two weeks time, just
before the end of the year.
And then we put the raffle upand I recorded the whole thing.
And David and Ashley Robinson, who'd beento my retreat two years in a row, won it.
So they, get to come to FIFreedom retreats again, and
they're gonna do it next year.
They're not gonna come this year 'causeit doesn't work for their schedule.
(44:00):
So anybody who interests the raffle, theycan choose which year they wanna come.
But I wanna do that every yearbecause, even now that she's, got the
initial piece of land, she's wantingto create the special needs school
and she's got a building project todo, so it's gonna be an ongoing thing.
So I will have her come and speakat this year's retreat again, and
I wanna continue to support her.
Wow.
That kind of partnership is incredible.
(44:22):
I mean, , it makes what you'redoing with FI Freedom Retreats
sort of even more impactful
than just a sort of pilgrimage for folksto launch their own self-discovery.
Giving back is a big part ofthe FI movement, and I'm glad
to see that your community.
Feel so passionately as youdo about this PKP Center.
(44:44):
Yeah, so meaningful.
So you mentioned Rachel.
so what are the dates for 2025?
You're doing two retreatsthis year, is that right?
Yes, I am.
So it's September 11th through 15th,and that one sold out in eight minutes.
and because there were people on thewebsite who said I was trying to buy it
and I couldn't buy it then, I put on asecond event and this is the only year
(45:07):
that I'll do two events, but the secondone is September 26th through 30th.
That also sold out veryquickly on the same day.
So I will, do an event nextyear, and that'll also september's
the perfect month in Bali.
It's the end of the touristseason and it's also good weather.
So we're planning for thefifth, I think, next year.
It's September 11th through 15th.
So if listeners are interested
(45:28):
Yeah, I was about to say if they wannaget on the list, what do they do?
They should go to my website, FI FreedomRetreats with an S, so fi freedom
retreats.com and go down to the mailinglist because it will sell out very
quick, especially given I'm only havingone retreat from now on every year.
So I would highly suggest that theyget on the mailing list and that way
they'll know as soon as tickets launch.
(45:49):
And they do need to really be onlineexactly the time tickets launch.
And you have about 50 peoplecome to these retreats,
Yes.
Yeah.
And the thing I love about it toois when we go to Australia to see
my partner's family, every year wego to the FI meetups there as well.
And so I really trying to creatediverse events with, last year
I think we had 12 Aussies.
(46:11):
Five Canadians, two Indonesians.
And this year we've got some Kiwis coming.
We've got more Aussies, of course,more Canadians and so I'm really
trying to create a very diverse event.
So that's what makes it nice 'cause.
Even when I went to Australia, I wentto a meetup and there were nine people
from five Freedom Retreats there.
And a lot of times people gettogether and they travel together,
like before and after the retreat.
People tend to come and stay for longerif they're coming all the way to Bali.
(46:33):
But then even afterwards,they're meeting up to travel
all around the world together.
So it's because we spend moretime together, it's not only
the five days of the retreat,but it's the pre and post events.
And then we go to an island andpeople really develop strong bondship.
Strong friendships and bonds andthey really continue to stay in
touch and have their accountabilitygroups and travel together.
(46:54):
So that's what's really makes itnice is it's international, it's
very travel minded people and it'sa lot of people who are really
trying to live their best, life.
I.
Yeah, I mean, even Camp FI is doinga international retreat, so all these
things that have been local are expandingand becoming destination things.
We also have a friend, Kristen Nap,who's organizing trips down the Danube
(47:15):
and to Morocco for land-based tours.
So it's amazing.
And once people, Finish theirtraditional working lives.
They're giving back
with sort of these destinationphilosophical pilgrimages
where people really get to knoweach other and, creating adult
friendships is not that easy.
This is a great way to dothat in this community.
(47:36):
Getting together is so impactful.
Getting together with you at economy,it's one thing to do a virtual
visual, but to be able to giveyou a hug is much more meaningful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And just love it all.
And Amy, I am proud to say I'm thrilledto be coming to Volley with you.
I've been wanting to do the big trip eversince you talked about it two years ago.
(47:58):
This is year number three, right?
So I'll be one of the speakers,but also we've got two other ones.
And it's not so much about thespeakers, honestly, we are there.
To just be a part of the event as well.
And so you mentioned Rachel Ithink it's Rachel Money Honey.
So she's gonna be there as well.
This is her second time.
Yes.
(48:18):
And
and who's the other one?
Doc G is at the second event withyou, and I am so honored that
you're coming to both events.
Yeah.
It's
gonna be so much fun.
How cool is that, Jackie?
That you get two weeks in betweenthe two events to go and explore
the island, whatever you wanna do.
Snorkeling, scuba diving, hiking alittle bit, just relaxing on the beach.
(48:38):
There's so many things to do.
Explore waterfalls and lakes.
There's beautiful nature all around.
So,
And we're gonna have todo a podcast from Bali.
Yeah, we'll have to doa little bit of that.
I mean, it, did not takemuch convincing Amy.
Right.
But I'm one of those peoplethat have a little anxiety about
traveling international and I'mtrying to get more comfortable
with it because I actually love it.
But there's a lot of the in-between.
(49:00):
And Amy has agreed to hold myhand as you do all the attendees.
Right.
Yes, well, I've got it worked out where,I'm very detail oriented, so I've got
lots of checklists and we have lots ofpre retreat calls and so people really
feel like I. Their hand is held allalong the way and it's, just amazing
to see how people are transformed.
Like, I think about someone who came in myfirst year, Samantha, she was nervous to
(49:21):
travel to Asia and I remember there werea lot of phone calls before the event.
But then once she came over, Imean, she decided to go back
and, give her notice at work.
And then she'd been traveling aroundSouth America and she's still traveling.
Now she's in Europe, but she's beentraveling for months and, it's incredible
to see, and I think about Keith who cameover, never, been to Asia, and then, he's
spending multiple months every year, he'scoming back again his third time this
(49:44):
year to the retreat and so we get a lotof retreat returning participants because
of the community and because, we havesuch a good time pre and post retreat and
there's a lot of quality time together.
But I'm so glad that you're coming toboth events and then you'll be there
in between events, it's one thing tosee Bali's a tourist and to fly in and
out and kind of check all the places offyour list, but I feel like, I can show
(50:04):
people a side of Bali that they wouldn'tsee otherwise and, really show the
richness of the culture and the people.
And so that's what I'm excitedabout highlighting Bali.
Its people.
And I can tell you this, when I firstheard you talking about the retreat
that you were doing a couple of yearsago, I think it was on Choose Fi.
At first I thought that you livedin the US and you were just visiting
(50:26):
Bali, but when I found out you'd beenliving in Bali for nearly 20 years,
I'm like, this is a tour guide.
I want, this is theperfect person for this.
So it's just gonna be.
An amazing experience, paradise, butalso being with, you and all the other
attendee, meeting the Bolonese people,you making the retreat with all these
(50:49):
other people from other countries.
I just can't wait.
Like I am so excited about it.
A ME and I'm so glad youstarted this a couple years ago.
Well someday for.
Yeah.
Someday.
Yeah.
We gotta get Bill there.
He'll eventually get
there.
Well,
Phil.
yeah,
doing
a lot of, you're doing a lot oftravel though, which is good.
(51:09):
Yeah, we try and keep up with it.
for my 60th birthday, we'remaking an exodus to South Africa.
And for my wife's 60thbirthday, we went to Morocco.
So we're not, suffering by any means.
Right.
All Right.
Amy, this has been awesome.
We've learned a lot about your life,your passions, and your purpose.
You found your little ppurposes, Dr. Chi says
with the, these kinds of things.
(51:30):
So I just wanna thank you from the bottomour hearts here at catching up to five
for coming on and, giving us just thatinspiration that our audience needs.
Thank you so much and it's beensuch a honor to be on your show.
I mean, I've been listening tothis show from the very beginning.
Becky was on my first retreat and justseeing how it's grown so fast and it's
really feeling a need for so many people.
(51:50):
Who started late, and so thankyou for giving people hope
and the educational knowledge.
feel good about their path, toknow that, just starting today,
every day is a new day and theycan start wherever they're at.
But they're on their way.
Yeah.
And Amy, where can peoplefind you if they wanna learn?
Maybe just get a peek into thepast retreats, learn a little
bit more about the retreats.
We talked a little bit about ittoday, but you have some great
(52:13):
resources where you have shared a lotof what goes on during the retreat.
I.
So probably the best place is thewebsite about Page, 'cause the
about page you can see testimonialvideos from past participants.
You can see the highlights videofrom the 2023 and the 2024 retreat.
So that's the best place.
I'm also on Instagramas well as Facebook.
So those three places.
(52:34):
All right.
Well, it's been a great show.
We look forward to seeingyou in the very near future.
And maybe you'll come to Knoxvillejust like Jackie one day.
Yeah,
love it.
I would love
Well, you're always welcome,Well when we have guests, I
actually cook something good.
It's not quick.
it was
corn.
I made cornbread this time for
oh, I love
car.
(52:55):
given some of
that southern flavor.
I.
Alright guys.
Looking forward to seeingyou all again soon.
Thank you again, Amy,for joining us today.
We'll see you next week on Catching Up To
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