Echoes of Evil in Catahoula - Ponthieux/Adams - Part 3 of 4 - CenLAw

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome back.
This is Kelly and I'm gonnagive you a quick recap of parts
1 and 2.
However, if you haven'tlistened to parts 1 and 2, what
are you doing?
Don't get me wrong.
Thank you for coming.
I'm glad you're here, but thisis the wrong place to start.
So, if this is where you havebeen directed, go back two

(00:21):
episodes to episode 16.
Part 1, echoes of Evil.
Start there and then come back.
All right, cool.
And for everybody else that hasbeen waiting so, so, so
patiently for the end of thisthree-part series, thank you so
much for being patient with me.
It has been a ringer of acouple weeks.
We traveled to Florida Ouryoungest has four to five teeth

(00:47):
coming in all at the same timeand traveling on top of that and
the weather being crazy backand forth.
It's just it's.
It's been a lot.
It's been a lot.
Top that off with me, not thereally double checking before we
left and making sure we hadeverything.
Everybody else got all of theirthings here, minus like a

(01:08):
sweater and a blanket, but allthe important stuff I just.
I tend to space when it comesto my own thing.
So my laptop charger iscurrently in route back to me
the laptop that I use solely toproduce this entire podcast,
produce, edit all of it.
So, anyway, that that charger'scoming, it's incoming and I

(01:32):
have made due to be able to getthe rest of this and edit it and
done for everybody so that Icould be done, so that I could
actually try to take a deepbreath, because I now know and
recall when we first startedthis podcast why I was pretty
dedicated to the bi-weeklybecause doing all of this by

(01:55):
yourself is a lot.
I love it.
It is I literally when I tellpeople why I do this.
It's, it's my hobby, this is myfun, this is my happy, this is
what I get to do for me.
I enjoy this and what?
What makes it even better iswhen I do get good, positive
feedback from everybody outthere listening and everybody

(02:17):
who comes back and listens againthe next week or the next
episode.
It just makes my heart happythat something that makes me
happy can also bring some kindof entertainment or fulfillment
or knowledge to anyone else onthe planet.
Wonderful.
So I'm gonna I'm gonna stoprambling now and real quick
recap.
First episode went over thecrimes we lost Miss Annie Bell,

(02:41):
miss Eileen and Mr John Butbozo.
We went over last episode inthe trial of Lee John, who was
the boyfriend of Debbie, who wasafter the murders occurred,
then led the police on a manhunt for a little over 22 hours

(03:02):
and then fully confessedeverything but said he did it
because Debbie basically saidthis is how I'll be happy is if
everybody else is dead.
And he confessed all of thatpretty sketchy on the details
Didn't line up correctly.
Miss Annie Bell had 12 stabs,slice knife wounds, eileen had

(03:23):
23.
That's right, so 23 times.
And then, of course, bozo hehad one gunshot wound to the
base of his skull.
And then, after Lee John andDebbie, both were arrested
Debbie being the eldest daughterof Annie Bell and sister to
Eileen, ex-wife and, morerecently, brother-in-law or

(03:47):
sister-in-law to Bozo.
Yeah, lee John is indicted andDebbie is pretermitted, which I
told you all about last episode,which means basically there was
a hung jury.
They couldn't decide if she wasor wasn't.
It was, if it is a true bill,not a true bill.
So basically they said we'lljust wait until something else

(04:07):
happens, if the DA brings itback, whatever.
So after about 190 days shegets released and then Lee John
goes to trial at the end of 2013.
His trial starts in December andafter I think it's a four or
five day trial, he is foundguilty.
He is sentenced to threeconsecutive life without parole

(04:29):
sentences and on appeal the nextyear.
He argues that they sentencedhim without allowing for the
cooldown period, which you know.
They said there's no meritthere because your attorney said
go ahead.
And the other one was theconsecutive life sentences
because they argued that it wascruel and unusual punishment and

(04:52):
all of those reasons that theyappealed on.
That all marked out theConviction and sentencing was
affirmed.
However, they did want to makesure and I think at some point
he comes back because the jurythey were unanimous guilty first
degree on Eileen and bozo, butit was 11 to one of this panel

(05:18):
of ten women and two men juries,jurists.
They 11 to one on any bail.
So even then, like originally,there was still kind of like a
this one factor and we'll getmore into that this episode.
So when I left you then was inDecember of 2014.
So we are gonna roll it back.

(05:40):
Let's take the time machinehead back to February, february
28th of 2014.
That's what we'll get started.
Welcome to episode 18, part 3echoes of evil.
On today's episode of sin andwelcome to episode 18.

(06:15):
I'm Kelly.
I'm kind of and he's back guys.
Of course he's gonna skip outon the middle, all the hard work
, and then just come back in andbe like, hey, I'm fabulous.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
I started it, I'm finishing it.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Oh, I'm sorry, the middle isn't.
Yeah, all right.
So we got the recap at thebeginning.
You got my ever-loving praiseand affection for sticking with
me and be patient for this lastpart here.
I'm gonna try to keep it under.
We should be able to getthrough pretty quick though,

(06:47):
because it's gonna be like damnnear carbon coffee of the trial.
Basically, before we get backin.
Just like part two started, I'mgoing to start this one with
the background, so we're gonnatalk specifically about Debbie.
Debbie Menon Adams was bornFebruary 24th 1955.

(07:12):
She was the eldest of sevenchildren to Annie Bell and Otto
Adams.
He passed away, I think abouteight years before the 2012
murders, and this is where itkind of goes dark.
It was easy to a point with LeeJohn because he had a criminal

(07:35):
record, so I could pretty welltrace every year of his life
from the time he turned 18,because there was a criminal
record from the time it was 18.
So with Debbie, though I Don'thave a work history, I couldn't
get in touch with any otherfamily to be able to See what
she did like hobbies, what wasshe good at?
How did she grow up, so homelife, how she grew up, if she

(08:00):
was the motherly hyn type, or ifshe always had a deep-seated
Jealousy, frustration,irritation, being the eldest or
what I don't know.
I really don't know.
Um, what I do know is verylimited and that is from in her

(08:24):
history asshole.
So marriage is divorces,criminal record, which actually
didn't start, I think it waslike in 2000, um.
So I mean, like I don't have alot what I do have and I kept
looking because I Couldn't helpbut keep digging, which I think

(08:46):
is a part of my problem.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
Anyway, just keep dig , just keep digging.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Okay, so we know that Debbie and Bozo used to be
married, um, but did you know?
They were married for less thana year May, oh five.
To November, oh five.
Legally it was filed inSeptember.
Wow, now, why the reason?

(09:16):
I say that is because, remember, how I mentioned earlier, in
2000, in July of 2000 they wereliving in Concordia Parish.
Now, now Debbie filed a Like aproperty retrieval thing.
A civil was a civil motion,civil suit to be able to into

(09:38):
the property that her and Bozohad lived in for the past five
years.
I think is what she said in thein the filing anyway.
So they had been livingtogether, but he kicked her out
and and he didn't let her gether new first up and she was
basically using a civil petitionto be able to go back into the
property and get her stuff back.

(09:59):
And, of course, true to form,there was an entire paragraph
just about the dog.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Well, I mean, that was the only thing she called
the police about, alright,alright so that was the other
thing I couldn't find for sure.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
I don't think she ever had any kids.
I don't think she had any ofher own children, so maybe that
was why she got so attached tothe dang dogs.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
I mean, like dogs are awesome and then maybe people
are the reason.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Maybe we'll get into that.
Okay, so Didn't get married toBozo until oh five.
They had lived together foryears and years.
I think they met in high school, from what I understand just
from this little bit I couldgather from the Interrogation
Interview they did with her.
Now they got married in May of2005,.

(10:46):
Right, debbie filed thepetition for divorce and At the
end of March March 31st, oh sixit was officially granted in
September of oh six.
So they actually went throughdivorce proceedings.
It looks like longer than theywere married.
Wow.
Yeah, so the divorce startedBasically the beginning of April
and it went through the end ofSeptember, so five whole months

(11:10):
and then they were legallyseparated in November of the
year before.
They'd only been married sinceMay.
And it worked out and, fromwhat you can understand, bozo
Worked either offshore or onland rigs.
He did something with the oilfield or something along those
lines because he made Damn goodmoney, and then I'll tell you

(11:32):
why.
I know that and this is gonnabe like a little extra, because
there wouldn't hold it.
I could find on Eileen and Bozoeither, really, except for the
court record stuff andInteresting find on that one.
So stay tuned.
The divorce between Bozo andDebbie was granted by September
25th of oh six.
Bozo and Eileen were married bythe just as a piece on January

(11:58):
30th 2007.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
So just over a year oh.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Not a year, baby.
That was September to January.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
Okay, I thought you said January 2006 and then
January 2007.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
January 2007,.
But it was September, oh six.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
So they were, yeah, so four months after they were
Officially divorced, but theyhad been legally separated since
November of the year beforelong story short, he married
Eileen January into January now.
That was in 2007.
Right according to the civilrecords in Concordia Parish,

(12:40):
bozo and Eileen were alsodivorced.
September 25th of 2006, bozoand Eileen got married January
30th 2007 about four monthslater.
Okay, bozo filed for divorce inConcordia Parish Initially on

(13:01):
February 2nd of 2009, so lessthan two years later.
But that one just kind of hungout and didn't do anything.
They didn't have any kind ofspecial stuff.
It was literally just likealmost like a dissolution and
not the divorce.
It was just like let her takethis, I'll take this and we'll
be done and.
Then nothing happened untilJanuary 19th of 2011.

(13:24):
So things must have been okayfor a couple years and Then I'll
help her lose.
When he filed again in thatJanuary of 2011, it came with a
protective order because he wasalleging abuse, domestic abuse,
and he was a fear for his life.

(13:44):
So they go back and forth.
Well, that's what I'm saying,like the amount of money that
they're talking about.
They've got a list of guns thatwas Well, like basically one
page of our entire three-ringbinder notebook, but that's not.

(14:04):
But, crazy enough, on that list,the only one that they had a
record of and a receipt for tobe able to get from the house to
be able to save, was maritalproperty or not marital property
.
Was Annie Bell shotgun, thesame shotgun that was used to
take off the top of Bozo's heada year after their divorce was

(14:25):
final.
Yeah, the rivington shotgun, orso we have been made to believe
anyway.
So Bozo and I lean.
The divorce in March of 2011 isfinalized the very end of March
.
So technically they weren'tmarried either.
So it's just a whole bunch ofdivorce fools all living.

(14:47):
Debbie's ex-husband,ex-brother-in-law, was living
out with her sister ex-sisterand sisters, ex-husband,
ex-brother-in-law.
At which it.
Honestly it made more sensebecause I found a 911 call and
we talked a little bit aboutthis in part two.

(15:09):
But the 911 call that I leanmade about the two Lee John,
senior and junior cousin orgas.
When she called the 911operator she identified herself
as Her second husband's, ourfirst husband's name, last name,
fields, scott fields y'allmight remember that name.

(15:33):
That is also the same personand Property and home where
Debbie ran the night of thesemurders.
So she ran up the road to Scottfields house.
Who was her?
Eileen, that was her ex-husband.
Eileen's ex-husband Lived upthe road where Debbie went to

(15:56):
call 911.
For no, I never actually.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yes, I.
She ran to her own ex-husband.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
No she ran to her sister's ex-husband's house.
They've been sharing Shit.
So the reason that I can be sosure about this is because Scott
fields is mentioned to behandicapped.
I think he got to an accidentor something and so he's
permanently handicapped.
And when she called 911, she beI lean specifically says Send

(16:27):
the cops quick because Lee ishere trying to jump on me and my
handicapped husband.
If we're when I can tell theyhadn't got remarried, because
she was, quote-unquote, livingwith Bozo out in the shed, right
, let me make it a little bitmore sense for you.

(16:48):
In In 2005, okay, remember backwhen he was married to Debbie?
Yeah, which Bozo?
Bozo is married to Debbie in 05for like seven months.
But Just after they got marriedin July, bozo took out alone

(17:15):
and, because they were married,became marital property, marital
debt.
Then they got divorced, okay.
Then he remarries the sister orthey need Mary's, the Eileen,
whatever and she signs on tothis loan To keep it, whatever

(17:36):
you know.
So now he has married adivorced one who was a part of
the initial loan, married thesis, married the sister, got her
to sign on in some form.
So in February of 2012, a meresix months Before Bozo, eileen

(17:58):
and Annie Bella murdered.
They receive a civil motion.
All three Debbie, eileen andBozo all three listed.
They have a motion to pay Backthis loan, whether it be in
property or however else.

(18:19):
They're going to get it.
They're gonna get their moneyback.
This was a Zay.
Remember how much it said thatlong was.
It was upwards of like 37,000dollars, which at the time was
not too big a deal.
Remember I told you he hadawful money, but something went
bad.
I don't know what it was.
I don't have any clue.

(18:40):
I didn't get that kind ofinside.
Maybe, maybe, possibly, but hehad, you know, the different
properties and different things.
But when they filed thatpetition on all three of them in
2012, that February, that, inmy best estimation, was the hard

(19:03):
times that Bozo and I, lee, hadfallen on, which caused them to
move in with Annie, and At thetime that they were murdered,
all three of them were actuallygoing through bankruptcy Claims
to be able to get rid of thisdebt you want to talk about.
I thought we were in a ricepressure cooker.

(19:25):
I Thought it was bad.
I didn't know.
Can you imagine had not onlyhas your younger sister taken
your husband, but now they'retelling you that you still got
to pay this dad and he's marriedto your little sister and they
don't got divorced so that theycan try to get bankrupt, see,

(19:47):
and that's well.
That's what I honestly believethat whole thing was.
I think they got divorcedbecause that would be the best
way to try to financially andkeep there.
I think they were trying tokeep I lean and stuff separate
from bozos, but I don't know.
I that's literally all guessingand estimation.
Don't take any of that to anykind of bank because nobody will

(20:09):
cash that check, because it'swhat it looked like to me.
So that's what I found when Iwent to go.
Literally all I was going to dois to check the divorce records
, that's it anytime she startswith literally, there's gonna be
an explanation.
So that's what.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
I got.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
That's where I'm at.
So we're.
Initially I didn't have like Icould see the resentment, like I
could see, but it really hadbeen so many years ago.
And there you know, you thinkyou get over.
You, yeah, you get a littledrunk again in your feelings,
you get upset about it again,but not enough to kill somebody.
Right not to keep on and keepon.
Now you throw money on top ofthat, you throw stress of the

(20:48):
money on top of that and youthrow the possibility of not
getting paid by the governmentto take care of your mama now,
because you're gonna have toclaim bankruptcy.
Yeah, yeah, there is no mentionof any of this shit and any of
the court records.
Just so everybody is aware.

(21:09):
This is literally I, just thisis open to the public civil
documents.
But in my mind money weighsheavier on the trifecta of why
I'm gonna kill you jealousymoney especially when they've
already been living with I.

(21:31):
It's been since 2007, yeah, sothey've been Well and they
should have exactly, and that'smy whole thing is like this was
a catalyst and a half Right atthe beginning, 2012, that
blindsided Debbie, who thoughtshe was done with all of this
shit with bozo, and then to comeback and now that they're broke

(21:53):
that she's gonna have to Likeassume this dead in the same way
that they do, and she's doneleft this mother had for her and
he's done left her for herYounger sister.
Are you kidding?
I can see that not going overwell not even a little bit, so,
to say the least, say the veryleast.
So that was done.
It's the beginning of 2012, inFebruary of 2012, so everybody

(22:17):
is obviously now I understandwhere everybody's always.
Yeah, yeah, and yin yin yin, Ibelieve, is how Lee John put it
yin yin yin.
From what from what I can tellwhen.
Okay, so Debbie went fromDebbie minion Adams to white,
then to Ellard and then back toAdams.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
Man imagine what she's after.
Right on her.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
I'm telling you, I'm telling you.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Here.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
I already can't remember so I couldn't find any
information about the first guy.
I have no idea who that was.
I know his last name was white.
That's it, haha, because thatwas initially what I went to
Concordia for to see if she'dmarried.
She didn't marry him inConcordia, so no idea who her
first husband was.
Ellard bozo was her secondhusband.
Now, from what I can understandif from her criminal history I

(23:09):
have theft in 99, marijuanapossession in paraphernalia in
2000 and Nothing else reallyuntil 2009, where she played
guilty to a misdemeanor drivingwhile intoxicated and Somewhere
in the early odds her and bozoactually got arrested for
illegal fishing.

(23:30):
So anyway, in Early odds, thelegal fishing.
2009, the DWI she played guiltyto, and then again in 2012,
early 2012, she played guilty toreckless operation and I think
the other one was a possessionschedule for which was like a
Xanax, but she had aprescription, so they just

(23:51):
missed that one still hate thescheduling.
Those Feel like the higher onesshould be the higher numbers,
instead of schedule one beingthe worst now that we got,
literally the only backgroundthat I have is that the civil
stuff marriages and divorces andthen the criminal history All
the way up to 2012 when sheplayed for reckless operation.

(24:11):
Now, if we start back into theactual story of what happened
leading up to 2012, in 2009, ish, 2008, 2009 she started staying
with her mother and she, inabout 2010 ish again, she wasn't

(24:33):
really clear on her dates shestarted getting paid about $200
a week as her mom's caretakerand that was through this day,
so she was getting that Straightto her.
Basically, just to Be with hermom like a child would be.

(24:53):
So and for you house and foryou all the other stuff around.
The same time, within the yearof her moving in with her mother
, she was invited to a weddingand that room sprite happened to

(25:13):
be Lee John Pantie a Punch, apunch, a punch, a punch, a punch
a person.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Because we had a.
We had a few of my lords.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
No, they just say we see, we see, literally tell me,
I told you how to say that I canreally put in their parche,
okay.
So anyway, lee John Jr he Wasalso at the wedding because his
sister was the one gettingmarried.

(25:47):
So that's where Debbie and LeeJohn found their faithful tie
and apparently moved in andimmediately started living
together and immediately startedhaving freaking issues.
So Nobody, from what I couldtell, like Lee John I think I
mentioned that last episodeDebbie had from what it seems to

(26:07):
me, like you meet some randomguy at a wedding and then move
him into your mama's house, okay, and then literally almost
immediately you guys start likegetting in trouble, like he
starts getting Disturbing thepeas, not drunk and disorderly,

(26:32):
but he just they call the, theycall the police a lot because
He'd get to drink in.
And I believe Debbie in herinterview even said I told them
to stay off the whiskey but hedoesn't listen Because the
whiskey just makes him mean.
So In the two years, two, threeyears that they were living

(26:52):
together, they had the copscalled on him like maybe four
times.
He had at least two, threedifferent arrests For being
either drunk in public, drunk ina car, driving intoxicated,
reckless operation, disturbingthe peace.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Is like when you, when you think about it, four
times doesn't sound like a wholelot of times to have the cops
called on you, but think abouty'all's life.
How many times have you had thecops called on you?

Speaker 1 (27:20):
This was in two years twice the 2012 schedule for and
careless operation that she got.
She was with hey John.
He also got picked up.
I think he was already onprobation at that point.
So, long story short, they werefiring gasoline that heat up

(27:41):
the pressure cooker.
That turned into a time bomb.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
And then the other sister was the oil, and then the
mom was the water.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Right, the water, the water that made the fucking oil
fire worse.
Nobody had any flower and thenthey toss that whole shit could
bootle into a volcano that wasalso sitting off fault line, so
it made it earth.
I'm telling you, hmm, bad idea.
All of this is a bad idea.
The family didn't like it.
They didn't like the fact thatDebbie didn't do anything about

(28:13):
Lee John being there and actingup fucking fool.
Didn't like the fact that LeeJohn Didn't do anything.
Really like, I think.
Well, according to hisinterview with police, with it
he talked about helping outaround the house, but I don't

(28:34):
really know how far that went.
If you get so drunk andbelligerent that you can't
remember what you took, how muchyou drank or who was there, how
long you were, you know like.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
I can't see how helpful.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
But I do know that he got a job because he was
Ordered to buy his probation, tohave a job within 30 days or he
would go to jail.
So he did get a job.
We're gonna the pecan orchardand we talked about that.
And I know we talked about thatbecause he was working at the
pecan orchard when he actuallygot Sinched up for this one.

(29:09):
No idea about our childhood.
No idea if this was Harvardresentment from early times or
if there was something with hermother from early times.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Either way there's no resentment with early times.
It's a decent whiskey.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
We get all the way to 2009.
She moves in with mom, startsgetting paid to take care of her
, moves in Lee John and then,according to what I found and my
best guess don't know if it'sfor sure, but the Information
that I got that I did get fromcourt records was Bozo and
Eileen falling on hard times andI think they said that in a

(29:46):
couple of the articles as wellbut they fell in hard times
moved in with Annie Bell, whichstirred more shit with Debbie
because at this point She'd haveto go bankrupt.
The reason for the bankruptcyis her bastard ex has been, who
left her for her younger sister,who are now moving into the
property Because they're goingbankrupt too.

(30:08):
Oh and, by the way, they ain'teven married no more, because
they trying to not have to gobankrupt and they're all mad at
her because she's got this guythat gets really drunk and
really rowdy and they have tocall the cops on him because
he's unstable.
And I have to tend to agreebecause his criminal history

(30:30):
Speaks volumes to how he actswhen he drinks, when he's
altered and it was straight inthe footsteps pretty much of his
father.
I mean, he learned from his dadto get drunk and be dumb and go
to jail, like that's what'swhat his dad did, that's what he
did, but as far as I can tell,his dad never killed anybody.

(30:55):
Or says just better than a catbut it also would make sense why
he latched on so tight toDebbie, because she was Lee.
John was born in 70, debbie wasborn in 55.
That's still 15 yearsdifference.
So Mommy complex Because Ican't find anything about his
mama.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
So I don't know that, or could just be the she's
gonna take care of me, like myname, same same same.
Yeah, she's gonna take you.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
I can latch on to this one.
She's got a house I can live in.
Mama Annie bill, she's gonnalet me live here and drink what
I want and use cars when I want.
Debbie likes to drink and bedumb too, and she likes to
complain about everybody else'sfault and misery loves some
company.

(31:43):
So that takes us up to thepoint where they're living
together.
Things are heated andContemptuous, tempestuous.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
Can tankerous?

Speaker 1 (31:54):
all of the us's Except us, and then I us us no.
So, debbie, like I said, shewas arrested initially for
obstruction because once theyrealized that she knew what the
fuck it happened, but she just,you know, didn't say anything in

(32:16):
any of the cops before theyrolled up in the house with a
guy who might have had a shotgun, didn't say anything.
So that's why they arrested herinitially.
Well, no, louisiana statute andLouisiana criminal procedure
only allows you to stay in jailWithout being Formally indicted,

(32:36):
whether that be by a bill ofinformation or by a grand jury.
You only have 90 days if you'reincarcerated.
I think it's 180.
I think it no, it would be 120,I'd have to look double check,
but I know it's 90 if you'reincarcerated.
If you don't get a bill ofindictment and get served with,
you have to be in court.
Formal Hand you something thatsays this is what we're charging

(32:59):
you with and on this date youcommitted this act, which was
against this statute.
If you don't get that by the90th day, you file a 701 motion,
which a 701 means I get out ofjail, you can't charge me money.
Hmm, basically, a 701 says youdidn't do what you're supposed
to do within the time frameparameters that you were

(33:21):
supposed to do it, and I get outof jail, no matter how hot my
bond is, because I don't knowI'm pretty sure I mentioned this
, but they're bonds once.
They were both chargedofficially with first-degree
murder.
We're ten million dollars Tenmillion they wouldn't get now.

(33:41):
So Debbie spends her time, theyget the grand jury pulled
together, but the member of thegrand jury didn't, true, bill
her.
So her attorney, mr RobertClark, he filed this 701 and she
was Bond obligation released ofher own recognizance, ror Ro,

(34:03):
and she went back to live in thesame house where her three
family members were brutallymurdered interesting, yeah, and
Continue to live her life until,you know, the end of 2013, when
she was called to testify inLee John's trial, which she did

(34:23):
barely, but I thought.
I still find it hilarious,though, that she answered more
of the district attorney'squestions than she did to the
defenses.
The questions, hmm, yeah, well,if you think about it, actually
makes sense, because thedefense was Debbie did it right.
It was all Debbie she did.
She was the one who was angry.
She had the result and in thereasons, lee John loved them and

(34:45):
didn't have any reason to killthem, so she put the fifth on
most of them and I talked aboutthat last episode because it was
and her attorney was rightthere with her, mr Robert Clark.
She gets off the stand intoDecember, goes on about her life
.
Now I do want to mention againthat she was in jail for over

(35:07):
three months.
According to the 701 motion,she was released on February 5th
of 2013 now, so there was aboutfive months.
I was about five months fromFebruary to December.
She's still living in 975 ModyRoad.
In December she could havetestifies for the defense, but
the only witness called for thedefense and then he is found

(35:32):
guilty of all three 11 to 1 forAnnabelle, but still all three,
because at that point we didn'tneed unanimous still counts
Until until February 28 of 14,like I said, and now we're back

(35:56):
to the beginning of this episode.
Yeah, amazing.
The DA apparently resubmittedtheir case to the grand jury
against Debbie Minion Adams,white alert Adams, and this time

(36:20):
they got a true pill.
So they got their fancy snazzyarrest warrants rolled out to
975.
Moody again.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
No prediction this time.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
March 18th of 2014, they arrested her, took her in.
She got a pretty new mugshotwhich I actually will have
posted on our new website.
Hey.
Sin long podcast calm and It'llbe in the blog section.
I'll have a couple picturesdown there, miss Annie, of
Eileen and a couple the twodifferent ones of Debbie.

(36:57):
You're very interesting.
You can tell that the time from2012 to 2014 was not good to
her.
I'm just saying her picturesfrom 2012 and 2014 are vastly
starkly different and I'll showyou.
You'll be able to.
You'll agree with me.
So.
But here's the thing, here'sthe catch.
You know how she got 701 onthis first-degree murder charges

(37:21):
.
They didn't charge her with.
This is the same thing theywere arresting her for, so they
couldn't set a new bond.
So she was arrested, booked forthose charges and then released
of her own recognizance becauseher bond had already been
Released or reduced or taken out.
Yeah, and they can't do ittwice for the same stuff.
So she goes in, gets fingerprinted again.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
That was a devil, whole double jeopardy thing kind
of.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
But yeah, so you can't have a bond set on
something.
Can't you see that you'vealready had a bond?
Set on before that.
You've already been releasedfor those obligations.
Yeah, yeah, we don't simplify.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
you can't do the same shit twice you can't do the
same shit twice.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, she gets released, but you know that she
does it.
She comes back and actuallygoes trial.
She didn't take off or nothinglike she had any better to help
her.
Anyway, at that point, fromwhat I understand her Everybody
that was her quote, unquotefamily had completely abandoned
her and that's actuallysomething that she said, her
words she ain't got no family,no more.
Hmm, that's what she said attrial of Lee John.

(38:18):
I don't have any brothers orsisters.
They're all dead to me.
I don't think she said they'redead to me, but she did say they
don't have any siblings.
Yeah, because they basicallyall turn the back on her because
they believed Boyd.
Lee John said he made the mostsense, just like all of the rest
of her story don't make nosense.

(38:38):
So fun part about Debbie story.
There her trial went basicallythe same, okay, but I bet you're
wondering how did they get thegrand jury to true bill when
they couldn't get under true?
But before what happened?

Speaker 2 (38:52):
what change they lost ?
One, tell me.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
No, sir, I'll tell you what change we love a snitch
at the same time that we don'tbelieve a snitch.
However, I I will tell you.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
There are conditions and occasions for me to believe
a snitch.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Alright, so we don't love a snitch.
Initially, initially you're notgonna want to like a snitch,
but then you.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
That's the only snitch, I believe is the one
that doesn't get you from it.
Bingo.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Bingo, because she tried.
She tried to use this for herpersonal gain.
Initially she wrote letters tothe DA, she wrote letters to the
judge, she wrote letters toeverybody who would freaking
listen, because she was tryingto get out of jail Rightfully I
mean, like nobody wants toreally be in there unless I mean
some people just do.
But if you have informationthat you know is good, you want

(39:43):
to try to use that to youradvantage, which is why snitches
are so hard to put on the standand be credible.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Doesn't have to get in time off or anything, because
at least trying to Right it's,you gotta try.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Right.
But when they come up and theyinterview her and they tell her
look, we'll listen to you, butwe can't give you anything, we
can't make any deals, we have nocontrol over what time you're
serving, and she says, okay, butthat's fine.
I still need to tell you this,right, because that's how bad is
weighing on her.
So Ms Tammy Lemon served sometime with Ms Davy Adams at the

(40:20):
Franklin Parish Women's Facility.
I believe they should have bunk.
I showed her, they showed herso and they get to talk in
because, like one does, yes,it's not a good idea, anyway.
So, ms Tammy Lemon, she writesand says, hey, I got some
information about a triplehomicide down there by the lake.

(40:41):
Come talk to me.
So they go talk to her.
Hey, hey, girl, it actuallytook them a little while.
I think she wrote a letter backin like right after they.
I guess she got sent over thereat the end of 2012 before she
got out in February, which wouldmake sense, but I just mean

(41:05):
like December-ish to January-ish.
It was when she was up therewith her and, according to Tammy
, debbie loved talking about it,because Debbie liked to talk
about the fact that she had liedto the cops that she had
watched the whole thing.

(41:25):
She was there when he stabbedher mama.
She was there when he shot Bozo.
She was there when he stabbedand attacked her sister.
And she said that they deservedit.
So I'm going to read you acouple of quotes from Ms Tammy

(41:47):
Lemon's statement and there's acouple spots that are really
important we're going to gothrough.
Okay.
So it actually looks like whatdid I say February?
What did she get out of jail?
She was released February-ishWow.
So the 701 got her out of jail,released on February 5th 2013.

(42:13):
The interview with Tammy LynnLemon's took place on February
6th 2013.
The day after Debbie wasreleased.
Wow, so the day after Debbiegets out of jail on a 701 motion
, the day after they release herBubba Roy rolls up to Ravell

(42:33):
and talks to this.
At the time she would have been47, 48 year old Black lady by
the name of Tammy Lynn Lemon andhe says that he got a letter
several weeks ago in regards toDebbie.
So they were cellmates inFranklin Parish.

(42:56):
So she said we hadconversations and then details
about the murder of her mother,sister, sister's fiance.
So remember, keep in mind thatshe was a black lady.
So, remember keep in mindbecause it's been a couple weeks
now when the agent was arrestedinitially, when he and Debbie

(43:19):
both got arrested, from the timeof the murders they never spoke
again.
So outside of Debbie havingsome way of knowing or hearing
from someone inside the jail whowould have had to tell her what

(43:41):
Lee John said and didn't say inhis interview, because she
wouldn't have had access to hisdiscovery or anything and she
was sequestered as a witness inhis trial so she didn't hear his
interviews.
So even if she had, because thetrial was after she got out of
jail, regardless this, tammyLynn Lemon has never met Lee

(44:06):
John.
She hasn't been out of jailsince the murders occurred, so
the information that she isgiving to Bubba Roy at this
point had to come from one placeonly.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
So that's another one of those things to keep in mind
.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
That cooperates and makes her a little bit more
credible than the usual snitch.
So she says they had all gotinto an education.
And then they left and her andLee, debbie and Lee were sitting
outside and Lee asked her whatdo you want me to do?
And she said I want them alldead.

(44:40):
So later that night, whenDebbie and Lee were laying in
the bed, lee got up.
She thought he was going to thebathroom.
Debbie got up to look for Leeand Lee was standing over Miss
Annie Bell with a knife and thenshe watched him slash Miss
Annie's throat and she said sheran out of the house and by the
time she got like a little pastthe street or something.

(45:03):
She heard a gunshot and Lee haddone shot.
Quote her sister's old man,which is her ex-fiance,
ex-husband, had been shot.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Ex-brother in the home or something I don't know.
Nobody know.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
And in some kind of way her sister and Lee got into
it.
Lee was trying to shoot hersister but the sister had hit
the gun and the gun went offlike in the sky or something.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Allegedly.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
And somewhere the bullet went off in the roof.
That's when he stabbed hersister or shot her sister.
She said she lied and told thedetectives that she ran down the
street, but she never did leave.
She was there when all of ittook place.
She lied and quote that she hadasked God to forgive her for
lying.
Didn't she call from Scott'shouse, scott Fields?

(45:56):
Yeah, that was the one down theroad.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
So she had to have run down the street she did
eventually, but after they werealready dead.
Oh yeah, we knew that from theblood.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
And this is the important one here.
This is the direct quote.
She says quote it's like sheinfluenced him to do this.
She is Debbie Kimmins Lee, butshe lied and said that he was on
some type of pain pills, expills or some kind of pills.
And she said she had ran to theneighbor's house or something
that's kin to her or herbrother-in-law or something, and

(46:26):
used the phone and said thatLee had done killed.
No, she didn't know who haddone.
Did killed her family.
Yeah, I'm quote.
Oh God, I thought you knew Iwas on him, not having that many
issues.

(46:49):
And then Tammy said that shetold her and a few other girls
that she had seen him do it andshe claimed she ran.
She wanted her sister.
Okay, quote, she say she stayedthere and was asking him why
did he do mama?
Why did he do mama?
She wanted the sister and herex-husband gone because her

(47:12):
sister had started going withher ex-husband and at first it
was only Debbie, her mama andLee and she came for now it's
his last name, just likeeverybody else, and first it was
only them living there.
But then the other two camebecause they fell on hard times
and then Debbie thought thatMiss Annie was acting funny

(47:33):
towards her.
This is what Lemon is saying.
Debbie told her and Debbie saidshe felt like everything going
on, her mother was talkingagainst her for the other sister
and Bozo.
So they got into thataltercation, right, yeah, debbie

(47:56):
and her sister got into it.
Then Lee and Debbie and Bozothey all get into it Said
outside what are you going to do?
And I'll dip?
She said when the detectiveswere supposed to have been
caught, Lee, they caught Leewith a pack of Marvorels which
was for Debbie's sister and herold man.

(48:17):
For Debbie to say that someonedone told her that her sister
had hit the gun out of her hands.
That's impossible.
He remembered Lee John did inhis second interview because
they found the bloody footprintson the sheets in the shed
outside.
He couldn't remember going inthere, but they saw the bloody

(48:39):
footprints so somebody had tohave gone in there.
The second interview, lee Johnsays I went to go find a pack of
cigarettes.
He was found with cigarettes onthem.
There is no way that Debbiewould have known he went back to
get that pack of cigarettes ifshe had not watched him do it,

(49:03):
because they never spoke again.
She took off running after hekilled Bozo and Eileen or
supposedly, took off running.
She wouldn't have seen him getthe pack of cigarettes, she
wouldn't have known that he hadgot them out of their shed, that
he would have had that kind onhim.
I thought that was huge Becausethat information would not have

(49:26):
been able to get to Debbie forher to be able to tell Tammy.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
And it's not his normal.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
That's right, it's the one that the other two smoke
.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
That's right, that's rather interesting.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
She said she saw all of that.
That was the one part thatreally stuck out to me.
It was like, oh dang, he barelyremembered that.
How does she know that?

Speaker 2 (49:51):
She was watching with rapt attention and it
interrupted her reverie.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Of course Miss Lemon says that Debbie was happy that
they were dead, except for hermama.
She didn't really feel anyremorse.
She wasn't glad that her mamawas dead but she was really glad
that the other two were Right.
She didn't show any kind ofremorse.
But you know and she seems Idon't know I was respectful,

(50:26):
respectable.
She says, quote I don't want tolie on her.
She didn't say she helped him.
She said that she told him thatshe wanted him all gone, she
wanted him dead.
No, she didn't say she played apart in it, but she was in that
house when that happened,unquote.
So I just thought that wasgreat.

(50:47):
I don't want to lie on her,right?
She?
Didn't ever tell me what he didwith the knife.
She said when you caught him orsomething, y'all got the gun and
she said that was her mom'sshotgun and that was the marital
shotgun.
Well, that was the only onethat was in Miss Annie's name

(51:10):
that they could say was not foreither of them.
Okay, so it was a part of themarital property To have to be
split.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
I think you would say backwards.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
I may have.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Did that make sense?

Speaker 1 (51:23):
And then she talks about the other girls that were
there.
That may have heard it.
There were pre-trial up thereall together, whatever.
She also makes a mention aboutthe fact that Debbie was
bragging about it in a movie hehad come on TV and she said she
didn't want to watch it.
But Debbie said I want to see alot of blood, a lot of killing.

(51:44):
You know, like she was stickingthe head or something.
Then she kept talking about thisother person, she would tell
her more or whatever.
So the other salemates thatMiss Tammy was saying, go talk
to them, they'll be able to tellyou just as much or more.
And then they talk about whenshe was actually in Franklin

(52:04):
Parish, which she said it waslike early December, through
Christmas, and that was when shehad cheered the sale, for there
were like four or five of themin the sale.
So yeah, but the biggest partof all that was the cigarette
spray, because if you step bystep that out, there is no way

(52:25):
that Debbie would have known,because the police barely
freaking knew, because Lee Johnbarely fucking remembered.
So that one was huge for me.
So now we can pretty wellassume Debbie was there, which I
don't know if y'all are with meon this or not, but I had it.
I was already assuming that.
So, yeah, so that was thebiggest chunk of evidence that

(52:54):
changed, because they didn'thave that before.
And once they got thatstatement from Tammy and they
also did a follow upinvestigation, because now that
they knew that she was there theentire time, they got to
thinking you know what?

Speaker 4 (53:13):
well, maybe maybe Lee John didn't kill all three of
them.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Let's look at this a little bit harder Now.
If y'all remember I'm prettysure I talked about it last
episode it's unusual for oneperson to kill three people with
three different weapons.
Okay, the shotgun slash pocketknife can kind of be

(53:43):
understandable.
You only got three shots in ashotgun.
You hit one, you miss the firstone at Bozo, hit Bozo with the
second and then the third.
She knocks out of the way, hitsthe ceiling or the wall at the
outside of the shed and thenyou're out of bullets.
Okay, then you got to switch towhatever you got, right, or?

Speaker 2 (54:07):
One person with one and one person with the other.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
And then the butcher knife was just too big Red
herring Not personal enough.
Maybe, maybe.
It was just the easiest thingto get to.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
I mean, it also sounds like the pocket knife was
well taken care of.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Yeah, he always did that.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Bozo knife is typically orange.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
We'll see if that's the thing.
You don't have to have a sharpBozo knife.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
The forensic pathologist you got two
different knives in a shotgunand we were talking about the
pocket knife in the shotgun.
I didn't know we were talkingabout any, but whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
I mean like at this point I was just talking about
the fact that why didn't theyuse the butcher knife and
continue to use the butcherknife, like I understand why he
switched to the shotgun to gooutside to kill Bozo and Eileen
with the shotgun?

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Because the butcher knife was already covered in
blood and they didn't want toalarm them.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
Well, I see that.
I think that you're shootinginto their shed.
It's kind of alarming.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah, but he got within steps of them before
doing so.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Yeah, no, it's an outrange weapon, but again, that
begs the question.
Listen, stabbing is extremelyup close and personal, in the
same way that strangulation isup close and personal.
Strangulation is a little bitmore so just because of the
amount of time you have to spend, but killing someone with a

(55:33):
knife is you don't get much moreclose.
The only downside of that,though, again, is, like you said
, the knife gets covered inblood, it gets slippery, it's
easy to slip and cut your ownhands, and this is another one
of those times when I haveissues.
There are no pictures that Icould find in any kind of

(55:56):
discovery anywhere, of any Noneof the hands none of the body.
None of the Dang it Bubba.
I don't know.
I just know that I the firstthing I would have done, knowing
well they didn't know at thetime that it was a knife.
But after they talked to him,give me your hands, turn your
hands over, both up and down,even if you have washed your

(56:17):
hands clean of whatever evidencemay have been on there.
If you've attacked somebodywith a knife like that, 90% of
the time you're going to cutyourself.
No, if you have a good knife,no, baby Listen.
Unless you have the ones withthe block, with the grip, that
will stop your hand fromslipping.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Yeah, which most, which makes most of the times
that I've had.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
So you're talking about a knife right now has a
block on it.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
This isn't.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
It does not.
It's going to get slippery.
Your hand's going to slip.
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah, I understand.
I don't care about it, baby.
You know how slippery yourblood is If I'm going to attack
me with a knife.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
It's not going to be this one.
This is a razor blade.
This is for work.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Okay, my point is there are no pictures of their
hands, not Debbie's, not LeeJones.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
And I absolutely agree with that, that's.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
I was so late About as much as I was when I realized
that they didn't test thefucking shotgun to see if it was
the same fucking Right spinshells that was outside.
Now I can kind of understandthat, though Out in the country
less spin shells, it couldpossibly have been from a
different shotgun and you don'twant to take the chance of
giving the defense anopportunity to say See, I never
even thought about that.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Yeah, because if you find ex-culpecuri or inculpacuri
, Because I've been thinkingabout Incur-ex Prosecutor so
much as defense to where likeyou gotta test him.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
No, you don't, because that was one of Brad
Bergett's points that he made soclear was we didn't need to
test for that because we got DNA.
Dna's better than that, right,right.
But for me, if you're going tosend it over to Mike Stelly and
waste his time, at least let melet him tell me.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Something I love, me and Mike Stelly, me too.
Hustle Stelly, alright.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
And in one of these bonus episodes, we're going to
talk about how much experiencethat man has.
Oh my god.
It's a lot like seven pages long.
So anyway, point being, they goback and they do this.
I guess they ask a forensicpathologist, which I believe was
not the same one.
I think they had a different.
Let's see.

(58:29):
No, no, no, mariana Esserman.
So basically, the only majordifference between Lee John's
trial and Debbie's trial, whichstarted on Grand Jury Trubill
February 28th of 14th.
She was arrested March 18th andthen she got out because you

(58:55):
know the double bond thing.
And then jury selection for hertrial it started on August 18th
.
Well, close, real real suspect,real close, alright.
So, alright, jury selectiontakes forever.

(59:15):
They tried to get a change ofvenue.
They tried to get jurysequestered, which I think they
did partially.
They wanted to move to adifferent venue.
They wanted to pull a jury poolfrom somewhere else.
They wanted.
He went above and beyond, aboveand beyond All of the rits and
things.
They sent off Supreme Courtrits asking for Rits, crackers,

(59:40):
different judgments for thingsthat they I think it was Judge
Leo at that time, leo Booth andthey were trying to get his
stuff reversed because he wasdenying.
You know all the things.
So, Still clear, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that.
Okay, we, alright.

(01:00:01):
So Her jury selection began onAugust 18th 2014.
Her trial only lasted one, two,three, four days total.
Yeah, so, like I said, reallythe only thing that's different
was Tammy Lemon and they had acodifin.

(01:00:30):
That was just you, but youswitch them, lee John was on
trial last time Debbie tried,debbie testified, debbie's on
trial, lee John's gonna testify.
Now this is where it getsinteresting, because His story
kind of flip-flops which youcan't really believe.
Anything this man says anywayat this point he has done

(01:00:50):
completely killed every singlebrain cell he may have had in
the beginning and it is gone,and probably at least one person
.
At least one, and that's whathe says at this point now, is
that he accidentally Killed Bozo.
He was just trying to hold himat gunpoint.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Yeah, I love that one , but that's in bullshit.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
I don't believe that either, but that's okay, Because
the more fun part he tries towrite Debbie letters and they're
not gonna let you do that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
That's just dope.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
They don't let you do it, that's just dope.
However, he thinks he's gonnabe clever and he sends a letter
to his Not his sister I believeCharlotte was the sister of
Debbie and he sent a letter toher and asked her to send Debbie
the letter from him.

(01:01:46):
It was still unaccepted, itstill didn't happen, but it's a
little bit smarter though itlooks really like you, baby.
You try it, do you read, doyour best.
May the odds be ever in yourfavor.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Dear Debbie.
Hey, baby, I love and miss youso much.
Let me store by sayings JesusChrist Start by saying yeah, no,
I'm reading it as I see it,yeah, okay.
Let me store by saying I'msorry about all this.
I'm sorry that you were in jail, I'm sorry that I don't wrote

(01:02:22):
you back sooner.
I didn't thank you.
I didn't thank you, won't it tohear from me, from me, baby?
You know that I love you withall my heart and soul, foot,
soul, with ever bridge.
I tackwhat.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
With every breath I take Jesus.
You just sped it up correctly.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Ever heart beat, ever heart bent.
I can never heat you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
Hate you, I told you, I'm gonna get out of season.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
What?
Because it's gonna make mybrain hurt less.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
Yep, I'll stop you when we get to part this super.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
I just love you, baby , Until the day I die.
You will be the least love inmy life.
That's funny, Baby.
I don't know what happened thatnight.
I know I messed up out her lifetogether.

(01:03:25):
Oh God, I'm sorry for it all.
I can't really remember.
Remember what happened thatnight.
Alright, I'm probably justgonna read the way it's supposed
to be.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Well, this is the important shock right here,
alright, so I can't reallyremember what happened that
night.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
I'm so sorry you were in jail and I'm sorry if I lied
on you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
He said that ahead of him.
I said that.
He said I'm so sorry you werein jail and then go ahead and
say it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
No, but I'm sorry if I in quotes lied on you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
Uh-huh, keep going.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
That just tear me.
I seen a lawyer and I told himthat I want it to get you off in
more than one way.
This one's not his fault, thisis just a bad photocopy.
Smell, smile.
Ah, okay, I want it to get youoff in more than one way.

(01:04:28):
Got it Wink, wink.
Yeah, I love you, get you off.
I'll do whatever it takes toget you out of there.
Boom.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
Stop.
You can stop.
You ain't doing it.
My friend can't take it.
The majority of this letter sofar is how much he loves her,
how sorry he is that she's injail, sorry for lying on her
Quote, unquote and he will doanything to get her out of there
Because he knows how bad it isand it sucks and he'll spend the
rest of his life in there, buthe'll do whatever it takes to

(01:05:01):
get her out.
He can't really remember.
Now, those letters were writtenbefore he went to trial back in
2013.
Okay, he wrote another onesaying kind of stuff, though the

(01:05:21):
exact same stuff how much heloves her.
Love of his love, love, love isthe bet thing in every bridge I
take.
So he writes to the sister ofDebbie, charlotte, and basically
apologizes and says heunderstands that they all hate
him.
Who's Shelley?
Shelley's his sister.
Ah, they've gotten married.

(01:05:43):
At the wedding I got you.
They went to where they met.
Yeah, he sends these twoletters.
They don't ever get to Debbie,but even if they had Debbie's
done with him, she doesn't needhim anymore, right?

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
I find it highly amusing that his cursive is
actually really nice, mm-hmm.
Yeah, really pretty.
And his handwriting is nothorrible, except for the fact
that he can't spell for shit.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
Right, and see, that was where in the first part I
was talking about his level ofeducation.
I think I did in the secondpart, but he's got really nice
cursive.
It's really pretty cursive.
So you can tell he went to atleast second or grade.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
Yeah, back then.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
Which is what he says .
And then you know I've got theother article that said he
dropped out in junior high.
But you can get all the way tojunior high depending on which
school you're at.
And you know I can understandwhy he would have left.
But at the same time, like I'veknown people personally that
were about to graduate highschool and could not spell in

(01:06:40):
their handwriting when it nearlyis pretty.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
But the main reason for that is Are we mentioning
this other letter to Charlotte?

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
What did he say?
What did I highlight on thatone?

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Well, I actually think the proceed.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
Yeah what's preceding is I'll read what everything is
important to you, but it's justto Debbie's sister.
I tried myself crazy, trying toremember, but I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
I just don't know what to do.
I'm going to try to take allthe blame and try to get Debbie
off.
I don't want her locked up.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Yeah so, and at least in this one he's a little bit
smarter he says not forsomething she did not do, yeah,
so let's go with that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
So basically, now they have those two letters from
2013.
And then they have Tammy Lemon,who was a cellmate with the
information that she could nothave got from anyone else or
anywhere else because it wasn'twidely known and Debbie wouldn't
have known if she wasn't there.
So these are, all you know,pretty good building blocks, and

(01:07:50):
the forensic pathologist is theother kind of Perry Mason
moment in the trial, because,whereas before Bradford get
harked up and down so many timesover in his closing argument,
opening argument about theevidence evidence all points to
Lee John.
All points to him.
There is one other person therethat survived and none of the

(01:08:11):
evidence points to her.
It all points to him.
Well, in Debbie's trial, it nowis brought to light by the
pathologist that the woundsinflicted to Eileen were most
probably inflicted by a personwielding that pocket knife with

(01:08:33):
their left hand.
Why is that important, youmight ask.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
I don't think anybody's going to ask.
I think that's a prettyself-evident.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
It's going to be pretty obvious that Lee John was
not left-handed, but there wassomebody who was and she has too
many initials to list, so I'lljust tell you it was Debbie.
Debbie was left-handed.
Demaulia, and I went back andre-looked over the autopsy when

(01:09:03):
I was told that little tidbit ofinformation and it follows
honestly, because I think Kylerand I actually had a
conversation about this andabout how holding the knife,
what direction, and if you weresitting behind someone you know
cutting them and you had yourright hand dominant, that the
wounds would have been morefocused on the right side.

(01:09:23):
Now, if you were attacking fromthe front, I just couldn't see
how the amount of power that ittook to almost decapitate her
from the front angle, it justwould have been difficult,
especially with a pocket knife.
So you would have almost had tohave been like holding her over
the shoulder with one hand andthen attacking with the left
hand.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
This is a very sharp pocket knife and it was a
decently sized one as well.
It was like a four or five inchthat we found.
And that, with multiple swings,is more than enough to
accomplish the same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Okay, but on the left side that's what I'm saying the
pathologist on the stand saidit was most probable that it was
a left handed attacker frombehind and the way the knife
wounds occurred and the tracksthat they followed, it made more
sense if it was a left handedperson attacking from behind and
you're pulling back, jabbing inand pulling back as hard as you

(01:10:21):
can, okay.
Okay, that's the idea that Igot.
She can wait a stab somebody.
Well, if you are watching frombeside the shed and realize that
he didn't shoot her and you'vegot the pocket knife from the
bedside table, I can kind of seeit.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
It's a very rage driven Right Like jumping down
like spider monkey and gettingat him.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
Right, so rage, resentment filled, right.
I can see that Personal die,bitch die.
Why wouldn't jujus die when hewas trying to shoot you?

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
I can see the like, the almost looking like a column
.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, very feasibleargument in my mind.
I just thought it was crazybecause they've already got one
man in prison for threeconsecutive licenses for killing
these three people that theyhave technically proved to a
jury that found beyond areasonable doubt that he did.
Now they're presenting a casethat it was somebody else.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Oh yeah, and we mentioned that in the first
episode.
I don't like it.
It rubs me all the wrong ways.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
It rubs me every single wrong way because I
understand being a principal toa first-degree murder.
You are still just as guilty,but I feel like that is a very
specific discrepancy.
Like you have to, thedistinction has to be there and

(01:11:49):
in this case, debbie and LeeJohn were both charged with
first-degree murder of all three, not principal to all Best
reign.
I'm sorry if y'all can hear that, but that's where my my
conscious comes in and is like Idon't feel like this is right.

(01:12:11):
So, anyway, the the major likeI said, the major parts of that
trial were the cellmate snitch,the pathologist who said it was
probably a left-handed person,and Lee John actually got on the
stand and said I accidentallyshot Bozo but Debbie killed her
mom and Eileen.
However, he was still just aspuppy, head over heels in love

(01:12:36):
with her that day on the standas he was four years ago, and
that's the part that blew mymind.
Like he didn't get up there.
They actually got permission totreat him as a hostile witness.
He didn't want to testifyagainst her, but he also felt

(01:12:58):
like he couldn't just keep lyingfor her either because she
obviously just didn't love himor want him anymore, because she
hadn't written him back andshe'd never made contact and she
had been out of jail.
So she could have and she neverdid.
Those feelings were kind ofhurt, but he's still in love
with her, still absolutely headover heels in love with her.
They did pull out some of thephotos of the autopsy and the

(01:13:20):
wounds and he ended up fallinginto pieces on the stand and you
could see he was obviously tornup and I.
Actually, when I was speakingto the clerk who was working
this trial, she said she neverheard that man speak.
Lee John, he never said a word,not in his trial.
The first word she ever heardhim speak were at the trial

(01:13:42):
against Debbie.
I thought was crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
Which I think is rather smart.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Well, no, absolutely.
But the demeanor that he haswhen he's over is such a light
switch difference.
Oh yeah, it's mind-blowing.
It was crazy, drury.
Instructions usually takebetween 45 minutes and an hour,
depending on the severity of thecase and the charges and all
that and how well they'represented to you, right, but no,

(01:14:12):
just the instructions partwhere the judge is telling them
what they have to do, what theyhave to decide.
They can take between 45minutes and an hour, depending
on the options they're dismissed.
Lee John took 45 minutes fordeliberations.
How long do you think thedeliberations were for Debbie?

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
30.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
Less than 15.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
Damn, I thought you just said that the oh.
You're talking about just thedeliberations.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
Just the deliberations, less than 15
minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
I was trying to factor in the instructions and
all.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
No, no, no, Less than 15 minutes.
Unanimously guilty of all three.
Yeah, that's great, becausethis was just in the minutes.
They were dismissed fordeliberations at 5.18.
They came back into session at5.32.
So their actual deliberationwas probably closer to 6 or 7.

(01:15:05):
Total yeah, nobody was fooled,nobody believed it and, like, I
think the biggest part of all ofit was how hard she denied
being there at all and thenchanged it and she swore to God.
She swore to God, she swore toGod.
And I went through thattestimony, or that confession,
the interview, the first one shedid, where she started off.

(01:15:26):
I wasn't there.
I left as soon as they got intoa fight.
Yada, yada, yada took off on it.
She has a couple tales.
When she's speaking she getsvery repetitive, she gets very
swear to God-y.
Black hole drawing almost andthen she starts to do the
politician ask you the question,and her question was the

(01:15:46):
question Mm-hmm.
And you can see an obviousshift in her story and her
interview when it starts tobecome imaginative instead of
factual.
And that's not hard to pick upon, like our brains
automatically pick up on thingslike that without us actually
knowing what we're picking up on.
We just know that something'shinty and it's not right.

(01:16:09):
So obviously the story of herand this is my thing, I'm gonna
put it out there.
This is again speculationstation.
I think she was there.
I don't have a strong opinionabout whether or not she
actually engaged with them ornot.

(01:16:29):
I could see herspider-monkey-ing Eileen, I
don't know for sure.
On Miss Annie Bell, I reallydon't.
I don't think she harboredenough resentment.
But I also, if I knew moreabout the childhood maybe I
would be able to make a betterdecision on that.
But that one's a flip of thecoin, I don't know.
But what I do know is thatthere was not a single shred of

(01:16:54):
drop of forensically attainableblood on anything of Lee John
Not his shoes, not his pants,nothing.
And when you violently attacksomeone with a knife, especially
in a situation like Eileen,maybe not so much Annie but

(01:17:15):
Eileen for sure that would havehad some kind of transfer, some
kind Somewhere somehow, and theyfound nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
Nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
And Debbie was awful clean for having run up the road
and I'm actually going to putthis on TikTok, guys, because I
want you to see the distancesthat she went from the house at
975 up to Scott Fields' house upthere and how rural just in

(01:17:47):
general.
But I've got a video ready andwaiting.
But she was remarkably clean.
She was not wearing any shoes.
This is very again rural.
They're not blacktop, this isdirt road, rock road and from
what I understand she was in herpajamas but it's not real clear
.
But I also saw in her evidencediscovery she wrote a statement

(01:18:12):
to I think it was maybe just herattorney, but she said that the
officers let her go back in thehouse after they cleared the
scene, told her to changeclothes and then she drove her
mother's truck, miss Annie'struck, from the scene to the
police station.
Now I'm not here to criticizeor point out things that people

(01:18:35):
do, but that doesn't seem likenormal protocol to me.
But in fairness, they didn'thave her as a suspect at that
point.
They had her as a victim and Ican understand that.
Trying to make this personwho's just gone through a really
traumatic event, regardless ofher, obstructing.
They don't think she hasanything to do with the actual

(01:18:57):
murder part of it.
So let's make her ascomfortable as we can.
Maybe we'll get moreinformation if we keep her comfy
and calm.
I can understand that to anextent.
It seems like a couple ballswere dropped, but I think this
was a really good learningexperience for the departments
on a whole.
I know that they changed theprocedures for taking pictures

(01:19:17):
at a crime scene.
They don't have three or fourpeople do it anymore, they had
one person.
Dedicated Policy in placebecause of the storm that brood
out of one camera being used bymultiple people, then realizing
that those multiple people weregoing to have to decide which
picture was taken by whichperson to be able to testify to

(01:19:38):
taking that picture, because youhave to have foundation when
you introduce evidence.
So lessons learned everybody.
This went luckily.
It was a very consolidated,very locked room mystery.
There wasn't a whole lot ofother options.

(01:19:59):
You had a confession right outthe gate mostly.
So Lee Jung gets up on thestand says he only killed Bozo.
Debbie killed the other two.
They got her guilty less thanseven minutes.
She was not happy, not even alittle bit.
We're going to get into thepost-conviction, which actually

(01:20:22):
took up way more of the pagethan the actual trial.
So, from the time of themurders on August 20th of 2012
to the time that she was foundguilty on August 22nd 2014, two
years, two days that's how longthat took.

(01:20:43):
So, two years, two days Herpost-conviction relief and
motions and hearings and filingsand appeals went from 2014
until 2021.
Seven years of post-convictionshenanigans.

(01:21:06):
That we're actually going toand I hate to do this to you
guys, but this is already, withediting, an hour and 20 minutes
long.
So what we're going to do isbreak it up into and make it a
part four.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Okay, so this way I can getpart three out.

(01:21:27):
And what?

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
She is.

Speaker 1 (01:21:32):
I tried my best, I really did.
But if I feel like if I put therest of her post-conviction
stuff in here because there's alot and there's a lot of really
good stuff her and Brad get intothe DA and it's wonderful, but
if I tried to put it all intoone episode I would be smooshing
it and not giving you guys thefull Monty.
So I'm going to go ahead andsay thank you for listening.

(01:21:54):
Please come back.
I'm going to try to get it out,because this one I'm going to
go ahead and post this evening.
It's Friday evening, the 12th.
I'm going to post it tonightabout eight o'clock and then
I'll do my best because I don'thave to work on Monday, martin
Luther King Jr Day.
So I'm going to do my best toget part four recorded and done

(01:22:14):
and release it on Monday, like anormal episode would be
released on Monday, and that waywe can just keep on cruising
and get back on a normal everyother week schedule, because
this back to back week stuff isliterally killing me.
Thank you for listening.
Hey, there's a couple coolthings.
Real quick, if you click downthere on our name, you can click
and it'll take you to our brandnew website where we have links

(01:22:37):
for our Patreon Heck, yes, I'mgoing to give you some, because
we have these really cool littlewhat do you call them promos.
I guess Not our freebies, butwe will send a I named it a
commissary package.
So if you do $5, just a basic,you get all of the all of the

(01:23:03):
you know Patreon special stuffand then you also will get a
little care package that willsend to you with some really
neat stuff in it.
That's the law in nature and ashout out on the next episode.
You know all that fun, coolstuff and that would really help
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If you're not into the givingmoney away to people that you
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(01:23:27):
rating, no review or like orsubscribe to any of our
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(01:23:48):
think it's really important tobe able to see the distance that
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and her pajamas, at fouro'clock in the morning.
So thank you guys again.
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Echoes of Evil in Catahoula - Ponthieux/Adams - Part 3 of 4

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Echoes of Evil in Catahoula - Ponthieux/Adams - Part 3 of 4