October 18, 2023 • 32 mins
This week, we unravel the unseen challenges young lawyers encounter as they're just starting out and underscore the necessity of grasping the business side of law, regardless of where your legal career takes you - be it in the corporate realm, a law firm, or government service.
We also uncover the integral elements for crafting a successful legal career. We touch on critical aspects such as identifying your inherent abilities, proactive planning for your future, and the influential role of mentorship. We further share insights on discovering contentment in your legal career, comparing the lives of public defenders and corporate lawyers, the wisdom of living below your income, and setting realistic monthly income goals. This enlightening conversation promises to guide you in carving your own path in the legal field, leading to a fulfilling and successful career.
Connect with Kelly on Instagram @KellyesqU or visiting her website at kellysturmthal.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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Speaker 2 (00:53):
This is Center Stage putting your firm in the
spotlight by highlightingbusiness owners and other
industry experts to help takeyour firm to the next level.
Hey, everyone, and welcome toCenter Stage.
I'm your host, john Henson, andI need to make sure that I
remember how to do all of thisbecause, even though in your
(01:14):
world we've been having episodescome out every week but it has
probably been a month or twosince I have recorded an episode
I've been on Paternity, beenjust working ahead and then
trying to not fall asleepbecause, that's how newborns are
, so.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Signing chapter.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, exactly.
So hopefully this will be asmooth recording and I can get
back into the groove of things.
But this week we are talking,focusing really on a group that
maybe hasn't gotten as muchattention on this show, and
that's younger lawyers, or maybethose who are going out on
(01:56):
their own for the first time,and my guest this week has done
a lot of work with this specificdemographic.
She's helped a lot of theselawyers achieve financial
empowerment, help them get morefamily time and just live just
an overall happier life, andthat is Kelly Sternthal.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, thank you, thank you and as you are living
life as well with your family,that's growing.
Congratulations again andthanks for having me, yeah
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, this is gonna be one of those episodes where I
can probably learn a few thingsas well, even though I am not a
lawyer, but I can probablystill get a lot of that.
And so before we jump in, tellus a little bit about yourself,
your background and why this issuch a passionate thing for you.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Oh sure, I actually have a group in entrepreneurial
family, so I think that was agift to me, because there's lots
of nuances that you learnwithin that.
And I have a finance degree andalso then my law degree.
So I worked for two years inbetween.
So I feel like I've had apretty varied background on the
(02:57):
business world as well as thelegal world.
And the practice of law is abusiness and I don't know that
we're always taught that in lawschool.
I have had a couple variationsof different businesses
combining consulting andpracticing law, and I am a state
and business planning attorney.
So I took the transactionalroute and incorporated my
(03:20):
interest, which was business andcertainly caring for families.
I think a lot of lawyers do goto law school because they want
to impact someone or somecommunity, and then you find out
how much is involved in doingthat, plus, by the way, the
seven years of school.
So it really is a process and Ithink we all we often have to
(03:44):
be pulled back to one of myfavorite phrases, back to basics
, because when things get prettycomplicated you have to kind of
pull back and say, okay, sowhat's the most important or
what are we trying to accomplishhere.
So I kind of have a variedbackground so I feel like I can
speak to a bit and really enjoywatching others grow within this
(04:07):
very diverse technology age,really just grow their legal
practice.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Awesome.
So let's talk about theseyounger lawyers.
They go through all theschooling.
They are ready to go out,they're ready to go get their
first job.
What are some of the unexpectedchallenges that some of these
new lawyers face right out ofschool?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I think the first part is that they are feel as
though their plan is done, thatseven years is a long time.
It's a lot of pushing yourselfforward to get through the
undergrad, the law school, thebar exam, your first job.
That's a pretty bigaccomplishment.
(04:51):
But I believe that then theyforget to continue to plan often
, and what I mean by that iswhat is this life going to look
like in practicing law?
Because we don't necessarilyget out of law school and we
started job and we know how todo it and we're just getting
better and better out of it.
We're actually still trying todetermine which job is best for
(05:13):
us.
We're trying to determine howto practice law as well as the
business of law, and I think thebusiness of law applies whether
you're in a government job, ifyou're at a corporate job, if
you're at a law firm, becauseeven though it's law, that's our
trade or that's our service,but it is a business.
(05:34):
We have to determine how we'regetting people to hire us and we
have to determine that ourincome and expenses are running
at the pace that they need to.
I don't know that all lawyerssee the practice of law as a
business, so it's a little twiston it, because it always ends
up being that and sometimesthat's where some of the
(05:56):
frustration comes.
So I think planning, continuingto plan, is an encouragement
for young lawyers and alsoreally getting an idea or
finding someone to get someinsight on the business of law,
just so you understand it,regardless of the practice area
that you end up in.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, and so that's interesting and so you know.
Correct me if I'm mishearingyou, but I mean it almost sounds
like you know, like you said,regardless of where you end up,
whether it's big law or even asmall firm or a corporate or a
government you're saying thatyou know you still need to
understand the business of it,rather than just what you're
(06:33):
practicing Like.
What does that mean, though?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Well, I mean.
So a business has income,expenses, administration and
people.
So you know, if you take thefour basic categories of a
business, so even if we take agovernment job, they have
clients already based on the waythat's structured, but they
still have to figure out theadministrative, they have to
(06:58):
figure out how much time it'sgoing to take in order to get
the job done, and then they haveto interact with the HR side of
it, the people.
So there's always an element of, and then they have to practice
law.
So the practicing law is such ahuge part of it and in the
beginning it's a very, verysteep learning curve.
Even if you've done really wellin law school or you've had
(07:18):
internships or it still is asteep learning curve.
So it's really justacknowledging or reminding young
lawyers that that's part of it,so they don't get into their
job and then realize, oh my gosh, there's so much more that I
have to be thinking about here.
So it's more of an awareness onthe corporate job or the,
(07:39):
especially the small, midsizefirm, all that's happening at
once.
You might not be part of itinitially You're really trying
to practice law but an awarenessof your, the business side,
meaning well, how are we gettingthese clients?
Or time versus money.
You know every young lawyer hasto deal with time because of
(07:59):
the structure of our fees aretypically based on time Because
all that stuff's in your head.
So it really is just just tounderstand the basics of
business.
I think is very helpful.
And as you're doing that,you're also planning for the
future.
Most business owners are alwaysthinking a little bit of head
of their current situation sothat they can continue their
(08:23):
business.
So it's just two.
You know important points aboutpracticing law.
Yeah, most law schools they'restarting to talk about it a
little bit, but I don't thinkthey concentrate on it because
the practice of law is fairlydemanding.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, and that was going to be my next question is
just how much of this do theyeven like?
What?
Any context for this in lawschool?
But then it's like, well, wheredo you even begin to fit it in?
Because you know it's alreadylong enough already and I
imagine all of it is veryimportant to learn along the way
, and so it's like there's thisother important element of it.
But where do you even fit inother than just having them get
(08:58):
the real world experience oncethey get out?
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Right.
Well, and I think part of thatis taking.
So if you're working 40 or 50hours, maybe more, in a law
office, you're concentrating onlearning how to practice law.
Yeah, and when you step awayjust to think about the
processes of your business oryour office or where your paper
(09:20):
flow is, that is, that is abusiness element, whether you
call it that or not.
So I think that the withrespect to how do you process it
, it's more of an awareness asyour, if you take a lane and 80%
of his learning law, that other20% is just an awareness of how
(09:42):
it's all working, because thatpart is what's pushing you
forward in your career, what youare trying to do.
The next part of it to look likeIn the beginning, you're just
probably taking a job to learnit, trying to find the right fun
, the right environment.
So if you're taking a littlebit of time thinking about the
(10:02):
processes and how this isworking, I think it gives you
some insight into your future.
What would work for you onceyou begin to master a certain
area of law.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, and so for many of these lawyers, part of that
future is going out startingtheir own firm, being their own
boss, working for themselves,and maybe they have some of this
context and understanding forhow the business of law works,
but a lot of times they're notresponsible for it.
(10:33):
But now, once you're going outand opening your own firm, you
have all of these newresponsibilities you are the
bookkeeper, the marketer, thereceptionist, the admin.
A lot of times, especially ifyou're a true solo, how do you
balance all of these newaccountabilities and
responsibilities that come alongwith running your own firm on
top of doing the legal work thatyou're getting paid to do?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Right, and sometimes those that think it's the best
choice to go out on their ownfind it is two full-time jobs
running a business andpracticing law.
So I think a big part of thatis knowing what you do well.
And when I say that I'm a bigproponent of your natural skills
knowing your natural skills I'mcertified in Myers-Briggs.
(11:19):
I feel like I have a coupleCLEs that I have about what type
of lawyer are you?
Are you the practicing lawyer,the managing lawyer, the rain
making lawyer?
So there are skills that eachlawyer has.
Very often lawyers lean, verylogical and task oriented, when
(11:40):
I mean that they're very good atgoing through a checklist.
So therefore, the parts thatthey probably need to fill in
may be the marketing side.
Potentially it could be the.
You interact with a lot of lawfirms.
You can see that that's yourbusiness, why people hire you.
(12:00):
Additionally, I think thegetting clients in the door is
another facet that lawyerssometimes are not as seasoned at
, because they are excellent atthe quiet part or the work part.
So much of that.
(12:21):
I mean.
I think law school attractsevery type of personality.
So therefore, I think it's justimportant to know yourself
really well, because then if youcan figure out.
You know we really excel whenwe are in our natural skill lane
.
You know, if I was asked all daylong to do accounting, I might
not be as excellent at that asin a firm requires accounting as
(12:47):
I might be at the practicing orthe rain making or the managing
.
So I know what I do well and Itry to.
If you're building a practice,you want to surround yourself
with someone that fills in thatgap, like a good marriage, yeah,
yeah.
And then the other part is Ithink you need a man, I think
you need people around you.
(13:08):
Any good business owner alwayshas someone that is ahead of
them, guiding them, and I don'tknow if lawyers see that.
You know we all don't get thatbecause it's not structured that
way.
But most lawyers that are aheadof young lawyers are always
willing to provide advice.
So I think that it's again, Ifeel a big part of my passion is
(13:35):
highlighting a few areas thatlawyers don't get exposed to.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, and so you know , and going back to something
you said a minute ago, we had agood episode a couple of weeks
ago with Emily LaRouche talkingabout your genius zone and that
kind of talks about you knowtalks speaks into what you just
said, where it's.
You know, kind of these fourquadrants of like things you're
good at and you like doing,things you're good at but don't
really care for.
(14:01):
You know things that you're badat but you're doing, and then
things that you hate and don'tlike doing.
Right and so you know, the ideais is focus on the things that
you like doing and you're goodat doing, and then surround
yourself with the people and theresources that can help
accomplish the rest of thosethings for you, and even as a
(14:21):
true solo, there are still waysto get that done, like you still
don't have to do it all on yourown, and I think that that's a
big hurdle that a lot of thesenew lawyers have to overcome.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Exactly, absolutely, and those are.
You know the resources outthere to determine the who, the
quadrants or the natural skillsare voluminous.
You know you really have.
It's just taking the time todetermine it.
Because if, if a lawyer wentthrough law school, we actually
have learned how to figurethings out.
(14:53):
You know that's part of threeyears of law school is being
trained to figure out a problem,solve a problem.
So part of it is not that youhave to solve every problem.
Part of it is that in solvingthe problem, maybe it's bringing
collaborating with someone orplanning to have the income to
hire someone in the future.
(15:14):
So, and all that comes back tobusiness and planning.
It is a and it's just notthought of sometimes in the
legal environment that they'reconnected Right.
So you know whichever words weuse.
But I just so appreciate thatothers are saying that because
it really is critical and youknow, think everyone that's
listening.
When you think about, whenyou're doing something you
(15:37):
either love or you're reallygood at, kind of is if you're
like a better word easy.
You're doing it veryefficiently.
You're, you know, crankingthrough it.
You're happy at the end of theday because it's what you
naturally do.
So that is possible to findthat lane within law.
I just think it has.
You have to seek it.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, so, and the other elements of this is you
know we've been talking, youknow strictly about everything
that is involved in running thebusiness, but then you also have
your personal life and yourfamily life going on in the
other side of that, and so youknow, what have you seen in that
regard?
Because I know this is a thingyou focus on.
So clearly it's an issue.
What have you seen you knowhappen, or the issues that you
(16:22):
know lawyers deal with when itcomes to trying to balance work
and family life?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I think that is an area that I have seen many
seasoned lawyers they are atsome actually stop practicing,
even though they finally hit thepoint and poured all this time,
energy and money into a career,because they cannot leave that
(16:51):
business that they created orpractice that they created to
then add an element of spouseand family and all that goes
with that.
So my opinion is that you haveto make a decision earlier what
you want your life to look likein five or ten years, because
it's back to that, that factthat you do have to plan still,
(17:15):
because many of us are okay soonas I finish this, then I'll get
to that and it's very difficultwhen your your career is pretty
demanding.
So if you have all these partspulling at you the business of
law and the practice of law thenyou can't find the break to add
a spouse and add children andyet, as you know now it's just
(17:38):
such a wonderful part of lifeand it does balance this.
So my wish is that younglawyers do not give up all that.
They've worked so hard andthey've become actually good at
practicing law at one point thatthey don't have to give that up
, and part of that is that thatbetween that three and three,
seven year, three and seven yearmark, maybe that they are
(18:00):
starting to repositionthemselves, whether it's that
they're from or in a newposition, or maybe it's starting
the business so that they canadd the element of family.
Because you know from my, I'vebeen married over 28 years.
I have two young men that are,you know, adulting and as
(18:21):
children, and and I would saythat there are were ebbs and
flows within my career in orderto manage that and I I'm so
grateful I have that part of mylife.
It makes me better, you know,having a husband and two
children that are growing and,you know, entering the world in
a in a way that I'm proud of.
(18:41):
So I I just think it's so muchof this is an awareness and
we're so busy learning how topractice law that you know that
is something that I really hopeto bring to your audience.
That just take a minute, maybetalk to others, maybe find
someone that's done it, that youyou know that you actually
(19:02):
respect that is done it.
Well, look for those older orthe attorneys that are ahead of
you to give you a little wisdomand try not to get to the point
that you're so tired becausepracticing law is tiring because
, if you really think about it,every single person that comes
to us has a problem to solve.
(19:22):
So after 30 years I graduated,you know, a little bit around
that time ago, after 30 years ofsolving other people's problems
, if you don't find your, yourquadrant that fits, yeah, it's
tiring and you leave.
Yeah, and that's a shame,because I think we we miss out
(19:44):
on some really excellent,excellent attorneys because they
just say I just can't do itanymore so let's get there.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah and and I mean I, I see this happen with
some of our clients too.
It's just like you know theycome to us and and they're you
know they're terminating their,their agreement with us, and you
know we try to find, figure outwhy.
There's always differentreasons, but there are always
every year, a handful of themthat just say I, I just can't do
this anymore, I'm getting out,I'm switching careers, and you
(20:11):
know it's, it is reallyunfortunate, and so you know the
other aspects of your focus isis making sure that people find
the happiness that you know theyneed and deserve, and you know
you've talked a lot today aboutthe importance of planning and
and having those mentors.
Is that, in your opinion, whatthe happiest attorneys do well?
(20:34):
Or are there other elementsincluded in that that you've
seen that you know lead to a lotof that really genuine
happiness for people in theircareer?
Speaker 3 (20:43):
I think, um, lawyers that find the practice area they
love and they're impactingpeople or a community or a group
, they're often very contentbecause they see their impact,
but they probably have quite afew people around them that are
allowing them to do the part ofthat that uh accomplishes the
(21:03):
goal.
Uh, I see lawyers that, um,because there's a combination of
lawyers that, if you look at apublic defender versus a
corporate lawyer, I mean thereare two different groups and two
different lives that come withthat.
You know, one's trying tocompletely impact a community or
(21:24):
a certain group of people andthe other one is in a, in a more
um, a fluent area because theclients have more money to pay
and get things done.
So you know again, both arevaluable and important.
It just depends which one thatyou're that your passion is in.
So the ones that are thehappiest are either
(21:44):
accomplishing the goalregardless of the practice area,
of their original intent ofgoing to law school, and they
they're able to find the rolewithin the practice of law that
is just, that is comfortable,and they can keep learning in
that, but they're notoverwhelmed by all the other
jobs.
So, same business principle youknow who's bringing the income
(22:07):
in.
Who's paying the expenses,who's handling the people and
and and.
Who is handling theadministration?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, yeah, and so you know one of the last things
I want to ask you about.
You know you've talked a lotabout planning.
Uh, you know, and, and mappingthese sorts of things out.
What does that look like?
You know, kind of broadlyspeaking.
You know, how far out do youplan?
What are some of the thingsthat you plan for?
Do you account for maybe someunexpected Um Obstacles or
(22:35):
opportunities along the way?
I mean, you know, for example,we talked about, you know, like
I'll use myself for an examplelike maybe I had planned out 10
years in advance, but maybe Ididn't think about the fact that
I was going to have a kid.
You know, and, and andobviously that makes a lot of
big changes there and it adjustsyour priorities and everything.
So how, you know what, whatsorts of things do you, you know
, advise people with in thatregard when they are making
(22:58):
their big plan for their career?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Two points are that you are living below your income
, and I say that mostly becausevery often we're finally after
seven years of school.
If you went straight through,you are overjoyed to have an
income, but I think that thebiggest error people make is
they buy a new car, they get abig house and they become
(23:25):
beholden what they call thatgolden handcuffs.
So you may have heard that term.
They become beholden to the joband the income of the job.
So watching that is part of it,and then the part of the five
year.
I one of my when I consult withyoung lawyers or, you know,
business people even one of thenumbers that people don't always
think about.
(23:45):
They think of their annualsalary, but they don't always
think about their monthly income.
So if you need $5,000, $10,000,$20,000 a month, whatever that
number is, I love to be able tosay if you're in the, in the
position of beyond a paycheck,where you're making some
decision, you have to push alittle more to, to make a little
(24:08):
bit more.
That number is is aninteresting way to look at
things, because if you actuallysay your number's 10,000, I'll
just pick a general number andyou work.
Whatever your work is, you workhard enough to get to 10,000,.
It's only the 20th of the month.
You actually could pause, spendtime with family, plan a trip
(24:29):
and and push your next projectclients, work, product, whatever
you need to the next monthbecause you actually know your
monthly number.
Yeah, and you know.
So.
Lawyers don't always think likethat because they're basically
saying no, no, I'm not, I'mwaiting for clients to come to
me, but we're all marketing.
I'm waiting for the paycheck.
Well, if the paycheck is 10,000, well, maybe when you get to
(24:53):
you know the point where you'vemade made 8,000 of it.
That other 2,000 you're pushinginto your family fund, or or I
think it's a 30 day projectinstead of an annual project,
and that's a really differentway, an efficient way to look at
it, because then you're you'reblocking out time for your
family, for your spouse, I mean,stay married, you know, have
(25:16):
kids.
It's a wonderful part of life.
It actually makes us, makes usbetter, and I believe that a lot
of it is so.
One of my, when you're in lawschool, they sometimes say if
you, maybe one of your classeswill say look at a situation and
look at it from every angle,because everyone has an opinion,
(25:37):
or you know one side sayingthis is the argument and then
the other side arguing you know,moot court or whatever it might
be.
Yeah, and I, I like to look atbusiness that way, to where we,
if things are frustrating, stepback and look at it from a
completely different angle.
Sometimes you have to read abook, talk to a marketing person
, sometimes you have to talk toa mentor or just pause and rest
(26:00):
for a minute, but very oftenyour answer is in looking at it
from a completely differentperspective.
So I encourage those that arefrustrated to just step back and
look at the basics of theirtheir career and look at it from
a different angle if they'refrustrated.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, and I mean so many different ways of going
back.
I mean I love the, the 30 dayanalogy that you, that you put
there, because, you know, evenas you were talking, I was
thinking to myself oh, I dosomething like this.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I you know.
So I felt.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I felt very special.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Oh, I encourage you.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah.
So you know it was really goodbecause it does help, because
you know, and the way that Iapproach it is, you know I I
reach that number and then Ilook, you know you talk about,
you know you get there on the20th and I look at that and be
like, okay, what do I have thecapacity to do right now?
You know, do I need to, you know, do I have the opportunity or
(26:55):
do I need to step away from thisand go spend some time with my
family or take some time formyself, or whether or do I have
some capacity to maybe help myfuture self out a little bit and
maybe get ahead and then infuture months, if I am feeling a
little bit more stressed orburned out or, you know, pulled
(27:16):
in a bunch of differentdirections, I have a little bit
more flexibility there to stepaway a little bit earlier
because I've worked ahead alittle bit.
And so, however you look at it,you know doing, you know
approaching something that wayreally can be valuable for
people.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
So you have 12 opportunities, you know, to do
that in your 12 months, asopposed to thinking it's October
.
You know we all have that, thatyou're feeling in January 1st
we're going to make thingshappen.
So it really is a concept ofactually creating that more
often.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, love it.
So what?
How can people learn more aboutwhat you do in the ways that
you help in and get in touch?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Oh, sure, so I have an Instagram Kelly ESQ you.
My last name is quite, it's aGerman name, great husband, you
know, great son, but it's long.
So that's my Instagram.
I have a my law office website.
I think if you look at my lastname, all my stuff comes up
because nobody has that name.
(28:18):
We have, a year ago I, with apartner of mine that ended up
moving for her family, we hadhave a very basic blueprint law
office on a laptop and that'skind of the business basics.
So that's a you know it's notmeant to be, you know your, your
whole business plan, but itreally does have some basics of
business in there.
(28:38):
But I would love to connect onInstagram.
You know I'm great oncommunicating via email and I
usually I often have a 15 minute.
Let's get to know each other.
One of my favorite parts ofpracticing law is the
interaction with the clients andthe referral sources and my
fellow professionals.
So since that's my favoritepart, I created a, an
(28:59):
opportunity to get to knowpeople.
So that's via my website.
So, and you can find me atkellyesqcom.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Awesome, yeah, definitely, definitely.
Go check her out and reach outand see, see all the stuff that
she's got going on.
You do a lot of really, reallygood work there, so one final
question for you before we wrapup here.
If you had one final piece ofadvice for our audience, what
would it be?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
It would be that if you're frustrated or overwhelmed
, take a step back and becauseyou're a smart person, I know
that you know you are seasonedin many different things take a
step back and consider lookingat your situation from a
different angle.
It's so insightful because veryoften we get caught in the
(29:46):
routine of it.
So just step back and look atyour problem from another angle
to move you forward.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, and to piggyback on that, we use the
EOS model here internally atSpotlight Branding.
For those who aren't familiar,it's essentially just a
framework for how businesses runmeetings and set goals and all
that stuff.
Quarterly, we as a leadershipteam get together and the whole
concept behind it is you show upto this meeting and you are not
(30:15):
.
Whatever your job title is, youare there as an advisor looking
at the company, and so we spenda whole day looking at issues,
opportunities, everything asunbiased and with as much of an
outside perspective as you canright and not taking your own
seats, personal circumstancesinto account as much as you can,
(30:39):
and it really does help surfacea lot of good talking points
and drive a lot of discussion.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
You just get different perspective that you
would never get it withoutopening the door to have that
conversation.
That's really interesting.
I'd like to hear more aboutthose.
I bet they're fantastic.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes, absolutely.
So that's why I love that.
What you said there is juststep back and try to look at
things either from a 10,000 footview or just from a different
angle, and you really can startto see just different avenues
and opportunities.
Or if you struggle to do that,like you said, get with some
(31:17):
mentors, get with some peoplewho have been there, who are
farther along down the line,because I know that they will
have a lot of really goodinsight as well.
So that is going to do it forus this week.
Thank you so much forcontinuing to listen.
If you have not done so yet,please leave a rating and review
.
It does help the show out a lot, and that's going to do it,
kelly.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Take care, enjoy your family, appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Thanks for listening.
To learn more, go tospotlightbrandingcom.
Slash center stage.
This podcast is brought to you by Spotlight
Branding.
Whether your firm only gets afew referrals or it's 100% of
your business, you have theopportunity to double your
referrals through educational,informative content.
The pros at Spotlight Brandingcan help you create that content
through blogging videos, emailnewsletters and more All
(00:22):
designed to help you increaseyour referrals and attract the
kinds of clients you want towork with.
Visit spotlightbrandingcomslash pod to learn more.
That's spotlightbrandingcomslash pod.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
This is Center Stage putting your firm in the
spotlight by highlightingbusiness owners and other
industry experts to help takeyour firm to the next level.
Hey, everyone, and welcome toCenter Stage.
I'm your host, john Henson, andI need to make sure that I
remember how to do all of thisbecause, even though in your
(01:14):
world we've been having episodescome out every week but it has
probably been a month or twosince I have recorded an episode
I've been on Paternity, beenjust working ahead and then
trying to not fall asleepbecause, that's how newborns are
, so.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Signing chapter.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yes, exactly.
So hopefully this will be asmooth recording and I can get
back into the groove of things.
But this week we are talking,focusing really on a group that
maybe hasn't gotten as muchattention on this show, and
that's younger lawyers, or maybethose who are going out on
(01:56):
their own for the first time,and my guest this week has done
a lot of work with this specificdemographic.
She's helped a lot of theselawyers achieve financial
empowerment, help them get morefamily time and just live just
an overall happier life, andthat is Kelly Sternthal.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, thank you, thank you and as you are living
life as well with your family,that's growing.
Congratulations again andthanks for having me, yeah
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, this is gonna be one of those episodes where I
can probably learn a few thingsas well, even though I am not a
lawyer, but I can probablystill get a lot of that.
And so before we jump in, tellus a little bit about yourself,
your background and why this issuch a passionate thing for you.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Oh sure, I actually have a group in entrepreneurial
family, so I think that was agift to me, because there's lots
of nuances that you learnwithin that.
And I have a finance degree andalso then my law degree.
So I worked for two years inbetween.
So I feel like I've had apretty varied background on the
(02:57):
business world as well as thelegal world.
And the practice of law is abusiness and I don't know that
we're always taught that in lawschool.
I have had a couple variationsof different businesses
combining consulting andpracticing law, and I am a state
and business planning attorney.
So I took the transactionalroute and incorporated my
(03:20):
interest, which was business andcertainly caring for families.
I think a lot of lawyers do goto law school because they want
to impact someone or somecommunity, and then you find out
how much is involved in doingthat, plus, by the way, the
seven years of school.
So it really is a process and Ithink we all we often have to
(03:44):
be pulled back to one of myfavorite phrases, back to basics
, because when things get prettycomplicated you have to kind of
pull back and say, okay, sowhat's the most important or
what are we trying to accomplishhere.
So I kind of have a variedbackground so I feel like I can
speak to a bit and really enjoywatching others grow within this
(04:07):
very diverse technology age,really just grow their legal
practice.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Awesome.
So let's talk about theseyounger lawyers.
They go through all theschooling.
They are ready to go out,they're ready to go get their
first job.
What are some of the unexpectedchallenges that some of these
new lawyers face right out ofschool?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I think the first part is that they are feel as
though their plan is done, thatseven years is a long time.
It's a lot of pushing yourselfforward to get through the
undergrad, the law school, thebar exam, your first job.
That's a pretty bigaccomplishment.
(04:51):
But I believe that then theyforget to continue to plan often
, and what I mean by that iswhat is this life going to look
like in practicing law?
Because we don't necessarilyget out of law school and we
started job and we know how todo it and we're just getting
better and better out of it.
We're actually still trying todetermine which job is best for
(05:13):
us.
We're trying to determine howto practice law as well as the
business of law, and I think thebusiness of law applies whether
you're in a government job, ifyou're at a corporate job, if
you're at a law firm, becauseeven though it's law, that's our
trade or that's our service,but it is a business.
(05:34):
We have to determine how we'regetting people to hire us and we
have to determine that ourincome and expenses are running
at the pace that they need to.
I don't know that all lawyerssee the practice of law as a
business, so it's a little twiston it, because it always ends
up being that and sometimesthat's where some of the
(05:56):
frustration comes.
So I think planning, continuingto plan, is an encouragement
for young lawyers and alsoreally getting an idea or
finding someone to get someinsight on the business of law,
just so you understand it,regardless of the practice area
that you end up in.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, and so that's interesting and so you know.
Correct me if I'm mishearingyou, but I mean it almost sounds
like you know, like you said,regardless of where you end up,
whether it's big law or even asmall firm or a corporate or a
government you're saying thatyou know you still need to
understand the business of it,rather than just what you're
(06:33):
practicing Like.
What does that mean, though?
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Well, I mean.
So a business has income,expenses, administration and
people.
So you know, if you take thefour basic categories of a
business, so even if we take agovernment job, they have
clients already based on the waythat's structured, but they
still have to figure out theadministrative, they have to
(06:58):
figure out how much time it'sgoing to take in order to get
the job done, and then they haveto interact with the HR side of
it, the people.
So there's always an element of, and then they have to practice
law.
So the practicing law is such ahuge part of it and in the
beginning it's a very, verysteep learning curve.
Even if you've done really wellin law school or you've had
(07:18):
internships or it still is asteep learning curve.
So it's really justacknowledging or reminding young
lawyers that that's part of it,so they don't get into their
job and then realize, oh my gosh, there's so much more that I
have to be thinking about here.
So it's more of an awareness onthe corporate job or the,
(07:39):
especially the small, midsizefirm, all that's happening at
once.
You might not be part of itinitially You're really trying
to practice law but an awarenessof your, the business side,
meaning well, how are we gettingthese clients?
Or time versus money.
You know every young lawyer hasto deal with time because of
(07:59):
the structure of our fees aretypically based on time Because
all that stuff's in your head.
So it really is just just tounderstand the basics of
business.
I think is very helpful.
And as you're doing that,you're also planning for the
future.
Most business owners are alwaysthinking a little bit of head
of their current situation sothat they can continue their
(08:23):
business.
So it's just two.
You know important points aboutpracticing law.
Yeah, most law schools they'restarting to talk about it a
little bit, but I don't thinkthey concentrate on it because
the practice of law is fairlydemanding.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, and that was going to be my next question is
just how much of this do theyeven like?
What?
Any context for this in lawschool?
But then it's like, well, wheredo you even begin to fit it in?
Because you know it's alreadylong enough already and I
imagine all of it is veryimportant to learn along the way
, and so it's like there's thisother important element of it.
But where do you even fit inother than just having them get
(08:58):
the real world experience oncethey get out?
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Right.
Well, and I think part of thatis taking.
So if you're working 40 or 50hours, maybe more, in a law
office, you're concentrating onlearning how to practice law.
Yeah, and when you step awayjust to think about the
processes of your business oryour office or where your paper
(09:20):
flow is, that is, that is abusiness element, whether you
call it that or not.
So I think that the withrespect to how do you process it
, it's more of an awareness asyour, if you take a lane and 80%
of his learning law, that other20% is just an awareness of how
(09:42):
it's all working, because thatpart is what's pushing you
forward in your career, what youare trying to do.
The next part of it to look likeIn the beginning, you're just
probably taking a job to learnit, trying to find the right fun
, the right environment.
So if you're taking a littlebit of time thinking about the
(10:02):
processes and how this isworking, I think it gives you
some insight into your future.
What would work for you onceyou begin to master a certain
area of law.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, and so for many of these lawyers, part of that
future is going out startingtheir own firm, being their own
boss, working for themselves,and maybe they have some of this
context and understanding forhow the business of law works,
but a lot of times they're notresponsible for it.
(10:33):
But now, once you're going outand opening your own firm, you
have all of these newresponsibilities you are the
bookkeeper, the marketer, thereceptionist, the admin.
A lot of times, especially ifyou're a true solo, how do you
balance all of these newaccountabilities and
responsibilities that come alongwith running your own firm on
top of doing the legal work thatyou're getting paid to do?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Right, and sometimes those that think it's the best
choice to go out on their ownfind it is two full-time jobs
running a business andpracticing law.
So I think a big part of thatis knowing what you do well.
And when I say that I'm a bigproponent of your natural skills
knowing your natural skills I'mcertified in Myers-Briggs.
(11:19):
I feel like I have a coupleCLEs that I have about what type
of lawyer are you?
Are you the practicing lawyer,the managing lawyer, the rain
making lawyer?
So there are skills that eachlawyer has.
Very often lawyers lean, verylogical and task oriented, when
(11:40):
I mean that they're very good atgoing through a checklist.
So therefore, the parts thatthey probably need to fill in
may be the marketing side.
Potentially it could be the.
You interact with a lot of lawfirms.
You can see that that's yourbusiness, why people hire you.
(12:00):
Additionally, I think thegetting clients in the door is
another facet that lawyerssometimes are not as seasoned at
, because they are excellent atthe quiet part or the work part.
So much of that.
(12:21):
I mean.
I think law school attractsevery type of personality.
So therefore, I think it's justimportant to know yourself
really well, because then if youcan figure out.
You know we really excel whenwe are in our natural skill lane
.
You know, if I was asked all daylong to do accounting, I might
not be as excellent at that asin a firm requires accounting as
(12:47):
I might be at the practicing orthe rain making or the managing
.
So I know what I do well and Itry to.
If you're building a practice,you want to surround yourself
with someone that fills in thatgap, like a good marriage, yeah,
yeah.
And then the other part is Ithink you need a man, I think
you need people around you.
(13:08):
Any good business owner alwayshas someone that is ahead of
them, guiding them, and I don'tknow if lawyers see that.
You know we all don't get thatbecause it's not structured that
way.
But most lawyers that are aheadof young lawyers are always
willing to provide advice.
So I think that it's again, Ifeel a big part of my passion is
(13:35):
highlighting a few areas thatlawyers don't get exposed to.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, and so you know , and going back to something
you said a minute ago, we had agood episode a couple of weeks
ago with Emily LaRouche talkingabout your genius zone and that
kind of talks about you knowtalks speaks into what you just
said, where it's.
You know, kind of these fourquadrants of like things you're
good at and you like doing,things you're good at but don't
really care for.
(14:01):
You know things that you're badat but you're doing, and then
things that you hate and don'tlike doing.
Right and so you know, the ideais is focus on the things that
you like doing and you're goodat doing, and then surround
yourself with the people and theresources that can help
accomplish the rest of thosethings for you, and even as a
(14:21):
true solo, there are still waysto get that done, like you still
don't have to do it all on yourown, and I think that that's a
big hurdle that a lot of thesenew lawyers have to overcome.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Exactly, absolutely, and those are.
You know the resources outthere to determine the who, the
quadrants or the natural skillsare voluminous.
You know you really have.
It's just taking the time todetermine it.
Because if, if a lawyer wentthrough law school, we actually
have learned how to figurethings out.
(14:53):
You know that's part of threeyears of law school is being
trained to figure out a problem,solve a problem.
So part of it is not that youhave to solve every problem.
Part of it is that in solvingthe problem, maybe it's bringing
collaborating with someone orplanning to have the income to
hire someone in the future.
(15:14):
So, and all that comes back tobusiness and planning.
It is a and it's just notthought of sometimes in the
legal environment that they'reconnected Right.
So you know whichever words weuse.
But I just so appreciate thatothers are saying that because
it really is critical and youknow, think everyone that's
listening.
When you think about, whenyou're doing something you
(15:37):
either love or you're reallygood at, kind of is if you're
like a better word easy.
You're doing it veryefficiently.
You're, you know, crankingthrough it.
You're happy at the end of theday because it's what you
naturally do.
So that is possible to findthat lane within law.
I just think it has.
You have to seek it.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, so, and the other elements of this is you
know we've been talking, youknow strictly about everything
that is involved in running thebusiness, but then you also have
your personal life and yourfamily life going on in the
other side of that, and so youknow, what have you seen in that
regard?
Because I know this is a thingyou focus on.
So clearly it's an issue.
What have you seen you knowhappen, or the issues that you
(16:22):
know lawyers deal with when itcomes to trying to balance work
and family life?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I think that is an area that I have seen many
seasoned lawyers they are atsome actually stop practicing,
even though they finally hit thepoint and poured all this time,
energy and money into a career,because they cannot leave that
(16:51):
business that they created orpractice that they created to
then add an element of spouseand family and all that goes
with that.
So my opinion is that you haveto make a decision earlier what
you want your life to look likein five or ten years, because
it's back to that, that factthat you do have to plan still,
(17:15):
because many of us are okay soonas I finish this, then I'll get
to that and it's very difficultwhen your your career is pretty
demanding.
So if you have all these partspulling at you the business of
law and the practice of law thenyou can't find the break to add
a spouse and add children andyet, as you know now it's just
(17:38):
such a wonderful part of lifeand it does balance this.
So my wish is that younglawyers do not give up all that.
They've worked so hard andthey've become actually good at
practicing law at one point thatthey don't have to give that up
, and part of that is that thatbetween that three and three,
seven year, three and seven yearmark, maybe that they are
(18:00):
starting to repositionthemselves, whether it's that
they're from or in a newposition, or maybe it's starting
the business so that they canadd the element of family.
Because you know from my, I'vebeen married over 28 years.
I have two young men that are,you know, adulting and as
(18:21):
children, and and I would saythat there are were ebbs and
flows within my career in orderto manage that and I I'm so
grateful I have that part of mylife.
It makes me better, you know,having a husband and two
children that are growing and,you know, entering the world in
a in a way that I'm proud of.
(18:41):
So I I just think it's so muchof this is an awareness and
we're so busy learning how topractice law that you know that
is something that I really hopeto bring to your audience.
That just take a minute, maybetalk to others, maybe find
someone that's done it, that youyou know that you actually
(19:02):
respect that is done it.
Well, look for those older orthe attorneys that are ahead of
you to give you a little wisdomand try not to get to the point
that you're so tired becausepracticing law is tiring because
, if you really think about it,every single person that comes
to us has a problem to solve.
(19:22):
So after 30 years I graduated,you know, a little bit around
that time ago, after 30 years ofsolving other people's problems
, if you don't find your, yourquadrant that fits, yeah, it's
tiring and you leave.
Yeah, and that's a shame,because I think we we miss out
(19:44):
on some really excellent,excellent attorneys because they
just say I just can't do itanymore so let's get there.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah and and I mean I, I see this happen with
some of our clients too.
It's just like you know theycome to us and and they're you
know they're terminating their,their agreement with us, and you
know we try to find, figure outwhy.
There's always differentreasons, but there are always
every year, a handful of themthat just say I, I just can't do
this anymore, I'm getting out,I'm switching careers, and you
(20:11):
know it's, it is reallyunfortunate, and so you know the
other aspects of your focus isis making sure that people find
the happiness that you know theyneed and deserve, and you know
you've talked a lot today aboutthe importance of planning and
and having those mentors.
Is that, in your opinion, whatthe happiest attorneys do well?
(20:34):
Or are there other elementsincluded in that that you've
seen that you know lead to a lotof that really genuine
happiness for people in theircareer?
Speaker 3 (20:43):
I think, um, lawyers that find the practice area they
love and they're impactingpeople or a community or a group
, they're often very contentbecause they see their impact,
but they probably have quite afew people around them that are
allowing them to do the part ofthat that uh accomplishes the
(21:03):
goal.
Uh, I see lawyers that, um,because there's a combination of
lawyers that, if you look at apublic defender versus a
corporate lawyer, I mean thereare two different groups and two
different lives that come withthat.
You know, one's trying tocompletely impact a community or
(21:24):
a certain group of people andthe other one is in a, in a more
um, a fluent area because theclients have more money to pay
and get things done.
So you know again, both arevaluable and important.
It just depends which one thatyou're that your passion is in.
So the ones that are thehappiest are either
(21:44):
accomplishing the goalregardless of the practice area,
of their original intent ofgoing to law school, and they
they're able to find the rolewithin the practice of law that
is just, that is comfortable,and they can keep learning in
that, but they're notoverwhelmed by all the other
jobs.
So, same business principle youknow who's bringing the income
(22:07):
in.
Who's paying the expenses,who's handling the people and
and and.
Who is handling theadministration?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, yeah, and so you know one of the last things
I want to ask you about.
You know you've talked a lotabout planning.
Uh, you know, and, and mappingthese sorts of things out.
What does that look like?
You know, kind of broadlyspeaking.
You know, how far out do youplan?
What are some of the thingsthat you plan for?
Do you account for maybe someunexpected Um Obstacles or
(22:35):
opportunities along the way?
I mean, you know, for example,we talked about, you know, like
I'll use myself for an examplelike maybe I had planned out 10
years in advance, but maybe Ididn't think about the fact that
I was going to have a kid.
You know, and, and andobviously that makes a lot of
big changes there and it adjustsyour priorities and everything.
So how, you know what, whatsorts of things do you, you know
, advise people with in thatregard when they are making
(22:58):
their big plan for their career?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Two points are that you are living below your income
, and I say that mostly becausevery often we're finally after
seven years of school.
If you went straight through,you are overjoyed to have an
income, but I think that thebiggest error people make is
they buy a new car, they get abig house and they become
(23:25):
beholden what they call thatgolden handcuffs.
So you may have heard that term.
They become beholden to the joband the income of the job.
So watching that is part of it,and then the part of the five
year.
I one of my when I consult withyoung lawyers or, you know,
business people even one of thenumbers that people don't always
think about.
(23:45):
They think of their annualsalary, but they don't always
think about their monthly income.
So if you need $5,000, $10,000,$20,000 a month, whatever that
number is, I love to be able tosay if you're in the, in the
position of beyond a paycheck,where you're making some
decision, you have to push alittle more to, to make a little
(24:08):
bit more.
That number is is aninteresting way to look at
things, because if you actuallysay your number's 10,000, I'll
just pick a general number andyou work.
Whatever your work is, you workhard enough to get to 10,000,.
It's only the 20th of the month.
You actually could pause, spendtime with family, plan a trip
(24:29):
and and push your next projectclients, work, product, whatever
you need to the next monthbecause you actually know your
monthly number.
Yeah, and you know.
So.
Lawyers don't always think likethat because they're basically
saying no, no, I'm not, I'mwaiting for clients to come to
me, but we're all marketing.
I'm waiting for the paycheck.
Well, if the paycheck is 10,000, well, maybe when you get to
(24:53):
you know the point where you'vemade made 8,000 of it.
That other 2,000 you're pushinginto your family fund, or or I
think it's a 30 day projectinstead of an annual project,
and that's a really differentway, an efficient way to look at
it, because then you're you'reblocking out time for your
family, for your spouse, I mean,stay married, you know, have
(25:16):
kids.
It's a wonderful part of life.
It actually makes us, makes usbetter, and I believe that a lot
of it is so.
One of my, when you're in lawschool, they sometimes say if
you, maybe one of your classeswill say look at a situation and
look at it from every angle,because everyone has an opinion,
(25:37):
or you know one side sayingthis is the argument and then
the other side arguing you know,moot court or whatever it might
be.
Yeah, and I, I like to look atbusiness that way, to where we,
if things are frustrating, stepback and look at it from a
completely different angle.
Sometimes you have to read abook, talk to a marketing person
, sometimes you have to talk toa mentor or just pause and rest
(26:00):
for a minute, but very oftenyour answer is in looking at it
from a completely differentperspective.
So I encourage those that arefrustrated to just step back and
look at the basics of theirtheir career and look at it from
a different angle if they'refrustrated.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, and I mean so many different ways of going
back.
I mean I love the, the 30 dayanalogy that you, that you put
there, because, you know, evenas you were talking, I was
thinking to myself oh, I dosomething like this.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I you know.
So I felt.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I felt very special.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Oh, I encourage you.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah.
So you know it was really goodbecause it does help, because
you know, and the way that Iapproach it is, you know I I
reach that number and then Ilook, you know you talk about,
you know you get there on the20th and I look at that and be
like, okay, what do I have thecapacity to do right now?
You know, do I need to, you know, do I have the opportunity or
(26:55):
do I need to step away from thisand go spend some time with my
family or take some time formyself, or whether or do I have
some capacity to maybe help myfuture self out a little bit and
maybe get ahead and then infuture months, if I am feeling a
little bit more stressed orburned out or, you know, pulled
(27:16):
in a bunch of differentdirections, I have a little bit
more flexibility there to stepaway a little bit earlier
because I've worked ahead alittle bit.
And so, however you look at it,you know doing, you know
approaching something that wayreally can be valuable for
people.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
So you have 12 opportunities, you know, to do
that in your 12 months, asopposed to thinking it's October
.
You know we all have that, thatyou're feeling in January 1st
we're going to make thingshappen.
So it really is a concept ofactually creating that more
often.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, love it.
So what?
How can people learn more aboutwhat you do in the ways that
you help in and get in touch?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Oh, sure, so I have an Instagram Kelly ESQ you.
My last name is quite, it's aGerman name, great husband, you
know, great son, but it's long.
So that's my Instagram.
I have a my law office website.
I think if you look at my lastname, all my stuff comes up
because nobody has that name.
(28:18):
We have, a year ago I, with apartner of mine that ended up
moving for her family, we hadhave a very basic blueprint law
office on a laptop and that'skind of the business basics.
So that's a you know it's notmeant to be, you know your, your
whole business plan, but itreally does have some basics of
business in there.
(28:38):
But I would love to connect onInstagram.
You know I'm great oncommunicating via email and I
usually I often have a 15 minute.
Let's get to know each other.
One of my favorite parts ofpracticing law is the
interaction with the clients andthe referral sources and my
fellow professionals.
So since that's my favoritepart, I created a, an
(28:59):
opportunity to get to knowpeople.
So that's via my website.
So, and you can find me atkellyesqcom.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Awesome, yeah, definitely, definitely.
Go check her out and reach outand see, see all the stuff that
she's got going on.
You do a lot of really, reallygood work there, so one final
question for you before we wrapup here.
If you had one final piece ofadvice for our audience, what
would it be?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
It would be that if you're frustrated or overwhelmed
, take a step back and becauseyou're a smart person, I know
that you know you are seasonedin many different things take a
step back and consider lookingat your situation from a
different angle.
It's so insightful because veryoften we get caught in the
(29:46):
routine of it.
So just step back and look atyour problem from another angle
to move you forward.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, and to piggyback on that, we use the
EOS model here internally atSpotlight Branding.
For those who aren't familiar,it's essentially just a
framework for how businesses runmeetings and set goals and all
that stuff.
Quarterly, we as a leadershipteam get together and the whole
concept behind it is you show upto this meeting and you are not
(30:15):
.
Whatever your job title is, youare there as an advisor looking
at the company, and so we spenda whole day looking at issues,
opportunities, everything asunbiased and with as much of an
outside perspective as you canright and not taking your own
seats, personal circumstancesinto account as much as you can,
(30:39):
and it really does help surfacea lot of good talking points
and drive a lot of discussion.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
You just get different perspective that you
would never get it withoutopening the door to have that
conversation.
That's really interesting.
I'd like to hear more aboutthose.
I bet they're fantastic.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yes, absolutely.
So that's why I love that.
What you said there is juststep back and try to look at
things either from a 10,000 footview or just from a different
angle, and you really can startto see just different avenues
and opportunities.
Or if you struggle to do that,like you said, get with some
(31:17):
mentors, get with some peoplewho have been there, who are
farther along down the line,because I know that they will
have a lot of really goodinsight as well.
So that is going to do it forus this week.
Thank you so much forcontinuing to listen.
If you have not done so yet,please leave a rating and review
.
It does help the show out a lot, and that's going to do it,
kelly.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Take care, enjoy your family, appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Thanks for listening.
To learn more, go tospotlightbrandingcom.
Slash center stage.
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