November 22, 2023 • 38 mins
Can revealing your authenticity propel you to success? Erin Hatzikostas, founder of B Authentic Inc., joins us to share her personal journey of how authenticity fuelled her rise in the corporate world. Erin’s unique leadership style, characterized by a robust dedication to her message, offers a refreshing perspective on standing out in the professional space.
Erin further unpacks her Six Principles of Strategic Authenticity framework, a toolbox for professionals navigating rule-laden environments. We also dive into the "Pratfall Effect," a psychological phenomenon that transforms "humility moments" into precious social currency. We discuss how to weave humility and storytelling into your introductions and make an impactful first impression.
Lastly, we explore the concept of the "Zero Moments of Truth" and how authenticity not only helps you stand out but also reduces these critical moments in sales and marketing. Join us as we explore how you can use your authentic self to build trust, accelerate relationship building, and find success in your professional field.
Connect with Erin on LinkedIn, and check out her book You Do You(ish): Unleash Your Authentic Superpowers to Get the Career You Deserve.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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Speaker 2 (00:53):
This is Center Stage putting your firm in the
spotlight by highlightingbusiness owners and other
industry experts to help takeyour firm to the next level.
Hey everyone, and welcome toCenter Stage.
I'm your host, john Henson, andtoday we are continuing on a
theme that we've touched on afew times here lately, and that
is about your authenticity andhow it shines through your
(01:17):
marketing message.
It comes through in how younetwork.
It comes through in just evenmarketing aside just in how you
approach the legal work that youdo, and so it's been a very
important conversation andsomething that I really want to
get to new driving home, becauseI continue to hear lawyers out
(01:37):
there talk about like, oh, I'mnot really that special, I don't
really do anything unique, I'mjust doing this or doing that
with clients, and that's reallynot the case.
Like, you do have a uniquemessage.
There is something there thathelps you stand out and that's
something that you do that isvery special.
And so, to add on to thisconversation and to help share
her insights, I am joined by thefounder of Be Authentic,
(01:58):
incorporated, erin Hatzakostas.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Thank you so much for nailing my name.
You rocked it Awesome.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I got it.
As soon as I got to it I waslike, oh man, I don't remember
if I know how to say it right,yeah, People freak out.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I see it every time, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I had an internal moment.
I know I get it, it's OK.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, all right, at least we got past it.
So glad you're here.
Before we jump in, tell us alittle bit about yourself and
why this area is so important toyou.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Yeah, so just a little bit of my background.
I started in the corporateworkspace about 25 years ago.
I was at Western MichiganUniversity sophomore year,
dropped out of engineering,didn't know what I wanted to do,
and my roommate came home oneday and she was so jacked up
she's like, oh my god, Erin, Ifound the career for you.
(02:48):
I found it.
I'm like, OK, Amy, what is it?
And she's like, no, no, no,it's high pay, low stress.
And I was like, OK, I'mlistening.
She's like it's called anactuary.
And I was like, oh, and this is1996.
So I couldn't Google just howquote unquote cool actuary.
So I pursued it right Becausehigh pay, low stress and ended
(03:12):
up coming out to the East Coastworking, getting a job with
Aetna swindled them in and Ispent about three years taking
exams.
I think I took seven exams.
I also spent three yearsfailing seven actuarial exams,
which was really fun as a highachiever to completely and
utterly fail in your firstcareer on an objective level.
(03:32):
But I was lucky.
I was at a big company and sothere were a lot of
opportunities and I sort ofbobbed and weaved my way, as we
do, doing things that werehighly unqualified to do and
eventually, speaking of highlyunqualified, I eventually was
named the CEO of one of theirsubsidiary companies.
Now, this is important.
(03:53):
I am a small town girl.
I had teachers as parents, Ihad no aspirations, I was a hard
worker, I was sharp, I did goodat what I do, but I was not
that person that was like I'mgoing to be an executive, I'm
going to have the big job, and Itook over the division.
It sounded sexy.
(04:14):
But most people are like, areyou crazy?
Because the company was likejust a disaster.
It was integration gone bad.
It was a acquired company.
It was the classic let's bringin these entrepreneurs and then
give them no money to do whatthey need to do and then yell at
them when it doesn't go well.
And so I took over at a toughtime and earnings have been flat
(04:36):
for years.
And when you have flat earningsyou can't reinvest in the
business, and so that'sfrustrating, right.
You can't innovate, you can'tinvest in your people.
Everybody was feeling it.
And I took over and three yearslater, as CEO, we tripled
earnings and employee engagementwent up 15%.
And along the way I didn't haveimposter syndrome to say, but I
(05:00):
was always sort of like when amI going to be found out?
When is either my luck going torun out or I'm going to be
found out?
Because here's why I would lookaround me and I'd look at my
peers and they weren'tsacrificing as much as I was.
They weren't grinding it out,they weren't traveling every
week.
I wasn't traveling every weeklike they were.
(05:22):
I wasn't moving my family, Iwasn't working every weekend.
And so I kind of thought, ok, atsome point, like your success
cannot continue, right.
And then it's kind of a wholeanother track which we won't get
into, but I sort of got thisitch and decided it was time to
sort of jump out of corporate.
I was just really scratchingfor something new.
(05:43):
It felt stupid because thingswere going really well.
But when I announced myretirement, people kept saying
we're going to miss yourauthentic leadership, like
message after message,discussion after discussion.
And I wasn't surprised theycalled me authentic.
But I never before that.
I wasn't like this badge thathad pinned, pinned.
And here's why I tell you thisas a frame for everything.
(06:05):
We're going to talk about what Irealized and I won't say in
that moment because it takes alittle while right, I put
together I wasn't gonna be foundout.
I was just playing a differentgame than everybody else, than
every other executive, and I wasnot just being authentic.
We can get into that for myself, because authenticity isn't a
(06:28):
permission, it's a power.
It's not about you, it'sactually about you working hard
to buck the norm and exposethings so that other people can
trust you and connect with you,et cetera.
But what I had realized wasthat I was using that
strategically subconsciously.
I had learned it from my fatherand did all that digging and
wrote about that in my firstbook.
But I realized that I wasretaining the best talent
(06:51):
because of my authenticity.
I was creating greatconnections and trust with our
customers.
Because of it, I wasnegotiating deals better, not
because I was strategic, butbecause I was using authenticity
and they were thrown off by it,and then they were connected.
By it, I was getting attention.
And so I tell you all of thatto say that I truly believe in
(07:12):
this concept of authenticity,and not just as a lazy thing
that you give yourselfpermission to do, but as
something that can be strategicand has to be actually
purposeful.
Here's why Because in business,whether you're in the big
corporation or, like yourlisteners, running your own
business, which I do now too thenorm takes you down this river
(07:35):
of not being authentic.
It's just easy to get caught upin.
So it takes work, it takesthought, it takes a little bit
of guts to purposely beauthentic.
But if you do, I promise youthe results will be amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, and it kind of sounds like, at least from where
I'm sitting, especially in thecorporate world there's almost
like a game you have to play.
There's these kind of standardexpectations.
You kind of are supposed to acta certain way, say certain
things a certain way, and thensomeone comes along, someone
like you comes along, and you'renot doing that not necessarily
(08:11):
out of rebellion or because youdon't like it, but you're just
being yourself and that throwsso many people off that now it's
called authentic or maybe it'sunique or whatever the case is.
And so at least that's what Iwas hearing from a lot of what
you're saying.
And so how do you defineauthenticity?
(08:32):
Because I know that that's apretty, it's kind of a buzzword
right now.
I mean, I know, at least for mepersonally we set our goals to
start this year.
Mine was to be more authentic,ironically, and so it's
interesting and I wanna hear howyou kind of define all of this,
because, at least for me, I'mseeing it more as just kind of
(08:53):
leaning into the things thatmake you stand out and unique.
But how do you see it?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah, I mean a couple of things.
One I always deprogram it's notbeing yourself, it's not
synonymous with being yourselfand it's not synonymous with
transparency.
They're two different things.
The Greek root is authenticos,and authenticos means three
things.
It means to be genuine, whichjust makes sense, right, but it
also means to be original andauthoritative, and so
(09:23):
authenticity is sort of this, Ithink I like to say it's sort of
partly being yourself andpartly being badass.
It's like if Joe Exotic andKamala Harris had a baby
together, right?
It's like you know.
And so how I define it myselfis a couple of ways.
One, the definition I use asauthenticity, is about exposing
(09:45):
who you are when people leastexpect it, in the service of
others.
And then I have a frameworkcalled the Six Principles of
Strategic Authenticity, with anacronym humans, which walks
through six things and I alwaystell people of course it's not
to tell you how to be 100%authentic, that would be
(10:08):
hypocritical, but the principles.
The humans framework is reallytraining wheels or, to mix
metaphors, sort of a lifepreserver so that you can start
swimming upstream and then youcan start to learn about it.
Preserver so that you can startswimming upstream of that
current that brings you down.
Inauthentic.
It's things that you can startto do, to start to catch the bug
(10:29):
, because what you said beforewas absolutely right.
I wasn't doing it just out ofrebellion.
The reason I was doing it and Ididn't realize I had been
collecting data points for yearsand years and years.
First of all, I didn't startbeing authentic as a CEO.
It has been what was making mesuccessful, leading up to that
right.
And the reason I had been doingit was the quote, unquote data
(10:49):
points I had collected frommostly from my father, watching
his success being that way butsubconsciously going, oh, it's
okay, or oh, when he does that,people like him, he sells more
business, he's a better teacher.
You know, he's in a couple ofdifferent businesses.
So the framework again is meantto sort of get you into out of
(11:10):
that going through the motionsthat business can do, doing
things right, following theformula, looking like a smart
lawyer who has all their pooptogether, right, and so you know
, experimenting with some ofthese things will start to give
you those data points and getyou addicted to it, actually,
quite frankly, cause those datapoints are gonna be like, oh,
(11:30):
like how this client like reallylaughed and came back for more
business, or this grew, and nowlike, once you do that a few
times, you don't need the humansframework, right, you're just
gonna be addicted to your owndata points and you're gonna
start doing things differently.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, and so and I think this is really pertinent
for our audience, because Ithink a lot of times lawyers may
feel handcuffed by this cloudof all of these ethics, rules
and codes of conduct around them, and so they probably, you know
, I think a lot of them thinkthat they have to act and
conduct themselves a certain wayand to an extent they do Like.
(12:05):
But I think that that leash isprobably a lot longer than they
may realize and they still havethat flexibility to be authentic
and to still, like you said.
You know, I think there's likethis weird dichotomy where they
think, you know, people thinklawyers have to act a certain
way and then lawyers then playinto that.
(12:26):
And coming out and beingauthentic, like you said, when
people don't expect it, I thinkreally opens up a lot of
opportunity for them to be moreeffective and to do a lot better
work for the people thatthey're serving.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think they get you know
it's easy to get stuck in.
I have to be this way becauseit makes me look smart.
Incredible when we forget thatthe number one most important
business especially for lawyers,but including lawyers is trust.
It's trust.
It's trust in connection withtheir clients, with judges, with
(13:04):
you know, whoever you know, andand there is no faster past to
that connection and trust thanauthenticity.
We have the data, it shows it,and so and I think I'd love to
tell a quick story to that thatsort of brings us to life,
specific to your audience.
So I have a podcast as well.
(13:24):
It's called Because WorkDoesn't have to Suck, and I
co-host it with my good friend,nicole.
We've been doing it for four anda half years and she has a good
friend.
Her name is Nicole it's notNicole, renee Bauer, and Renee
has owned her own law firm.
She's a family practice lawyer,owned her own firm for 12 plus
years and was doing really well,award winning practice here in
(13:49):
Connecticut doing well, andNicole had her on our podcast.
She was one of our probablyfirst 15 interviews or so and
Nicole interviewed her andbecause she was a good friend
and Nicole's crazy, she showedup at Renee's house with a huge
platter of sushi, you know, abottle, maybe two, of wine, and
was like we're going to have funwith this right, and she
(14:10):
started asking Renee questions.
Now, renee now has a podcastand the speaker but it was her
first podcast.
And so Nicole just, you know,because we're all about
authenticity she really dug intoher background and Nicole,
because she knew her so well,knew that Renee also herself had
been divorced twice and she'snow happily married to, honestly
, jay's, the best guy ever.
(14:31):
But, you know, had gone through, obviously, some ups and downs
herself and then, ironically,was a family practice lawyer.
And so Nicole asked her somequestions about that.
And I don't know if it was theunexpectedness, you know, or the
wine, or the sushi, or all ofit.
You know Renee answered it,yeah, and talked about her own
experience, which she'd neverdone before, and Nicole,
(14:53):
afterwards she told her, youknow, that's the first time I've
really talked openly about myown, you know situation going
through divorce.
And Nicole is like, oh my gosh,I didn't realize that.
And you know, I think Renee, ofcourse, her thought was, well,
no, that if I talk about that,that's going to make me look
like a not credible who wants towork with a divorce attorney
(15:14):
who's on her third marriage,right, and so we released the
episode and what has happenedsince then is nothing short of
amazing.
I mean her, her law firm hascompletely exploded.
She so much so that shortlyafter she started a brand called
happy even after and renamedher, so really sort of helping
(15:36):
people understand it was morethan just legal she started
telling her story.
A lot of her clients are women,helping them with their sort of
their happy even after andcreated a whole whole brand of
business and etc.
And so it's just a good exampleof how you know when we say
authenticity, it's not onethical and it's not even
(15:57):
necessarily fancy, it's justexposing who you are when people
least expect it to serve others.
And she was serving others bysaying hey, look, I get where
you've been.
I was, I've been there too, andthat makes me, you know,
probably a better trustedresource.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, and so to kind of, you know, reiterate that,
you know, especially with ouraudience.
And this is such a greatexample because I think a lot of
times lawyers might feel alittle bit hesitant to be
authentic out of fear ofexposing who they really are and
(16:33):
that being some kind ofnegative thing.
But especially in this case,you know, it's one of those
things where it ended up reallybecoming a positive for her and
helped people really connectwith her in a positive way, even
though maybe on paper it couldbe seen as a negative situation.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, yeah, and there's science behind it.
Have you ever heard of thepratfall effect?
I have?
not yeah, I mean.
So humility is one of the sixprimary kimono.
That's the age in humans, butthere is, there's data.
So back in 1960s there was apsychologist that had this
(17:13):
theory that people who did apratfall which is kind of an old
world name for like, didsomething wrong or a humility
moment right, it's, you know,something you use in acting but
it's like a blunder.
So his theory was that peoplewho were seen as competent this
is really important he thoughtwhen they have a blunder or a
(17:35):
pratfall we'll actually be morelikable or more selected.
And so he conducted anexperiment.
He put people into four groupscompetent without a pratfall,
competent with a pratfall andthen less competent with and
without a pratfall.
And the experiment was aroundwhat the people listening
(17:55):
thought these people were tryingout for, like a game show.
So it was very objective, likethey were getting some answers.
You know, the competent oneswere clearly competent.
They were getting more answersright.
Others weren't and they hadthese groups listen and the ones
that had the pratfall.
The pratfall was just them atthe end of the contest or
whatever their submission,saying, oh crap, I just I
(18:17):
spilled some coffee on my jacketright, pretending like they
accidentally spilled coffee andwhat his experiment found was
that, in fact, those that werecompetent, that had that blunder
and spilled the coffee wereselected significantly more as
the contestants as more likable.
The same was not true when theywere seen as less competent.
(18:41):
That it actually brought itdown, and I think that's a
really important point.
You know authenticity, orexposing who you are, your
humility moment.
If you just do that and thenyou do sloppy work and you don't
follow up timely and it willhurt you.
But if you have a track record,if you are doing good business,
(19:02):
if you are organized and doingyour practice well which I would
imagine most of your listenersare and strive to do that adding
in that humility moment, thatauthenticity, a pratfall,
whatever you wanna call itactually will make their stakes
go up and the experiment, thedata, the science, the pratfall
effect confirms that.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, yeah, and that makes total sense to me Because
I mean, I'm thinking aboutmyself as a consumer.
You know, to me if I'm gettinga divorce, I look more favorably
on a lawyer who has also gonethrough divorce, because they
can at least empathize with meto a higher level than someone
(19:46):
who's been like yeah, I've beenmarried for 25 years,
everything's great.
I don't know why you can't dothat Like.
That's just at least how mymind would work 100%, 100%.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
People wanna connect.
I mean we want imperfection,like drug dealers want cocaine,
like we crave it.
We crave seeing whether it'sour friends, and going into
their house and being like, oh,thank God it's messy right.
Like, oh, makes me feel bad,like we don't care about their
house.
Like when it's clean we're notlike, oh, they're so amazing.
No, we think, god, I'm socrappy at keeping my house right
(20:18):
.
We all bring it back toourselves.
So when we see thoseimperfections, it's such a
relief and it's just likeimmediate, like, oh, you're just
like me, you're not perfect.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah.
So what does this look like?
You know, I think you know it'seasy for us to imagine these
sorts of things in actionable,tangible steps, so beyond, just
kind of like a mindset thing,like how can authenticity be
something that's tangible andactionable, like what can people
do?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit.
So the framework humans, thesix principles it stands for
humility, being unexpected,modeling, adapting, narrating
and sparking, and so withinthose, there's a couple
experiments and tangible thingsthat I would give to you.
I mean, the first, and probablythe most powerful, that
(21:10):
combines both the humility andthe storytelling or narrate, is
in your introduction.
When you're meeting new clientsor new judges or whoever it's
creating what I call anintriguing intro, because most
people would be like hey, john,nice to meet you.
Tell me a little about yourself.
Well, I've spent four yearsdoing marketing and podcasting,
(21:32):
and then you give them sort oflike the resume and, especially
if you're in a group setting,nobody heard a thing you said,
because you know what they'redoing, they're thinking about
what they're going to say, right, unless you're last, they're
like oh, I have no idea what youjust said, because I'm trying
to figure out what my intro isgoing to be.
Instead, if you can create anintro that combines a humility
(21:53):
moment with what I call a bigbrag, so that might look like.
You know, I do this exercisewith groups all the time, where
you write down all your humilitymoments and maybe you say to me
do a super simple one, you know.
Let's say you're a lawyer,you're like I fail.
You know what One of myhumility moments?
I failed, you know,constitutional law 101.
(22:17):
When I was in college, like F.
Okay.
Now do you have to expose that?
No, there's nothing in ethicsIf you're running a practice
that says you have to tell themyour grades on every class.
Do people expect you expose it?
Absolutely not.
But let's say you say you know.
Look, first thing I have to tellyou about myself is I was
gung-ho.
I'm becoming a lawyer, got myundergraduate degree, I went to
(22:39):
law school and I took my youknow first semester and guess
what I got in constitutional law.
I got a big fat off, but Ididn't give up.
I finished school and I went onfrom there and I went to XYZ
law firm.
Within two years I became thehottest ticket on town, or
whatever your big brag is.
(22:59):
I closed X number of cases andthen decided to do this.
And the reason I tell you all ofthis is because, if you work
with me, understand that you'renot getting somebody who gets it
right all the time, but you'regetting somebody that's always
gonna tell you the truth andtell you what's going on and
(23:20):
that's a very obvious.
But there's so many ways.
If you kind of play with whatis this humility moment, I can
expose a time when you messed up, couple that with your
competence, like in the pratfalleffect, like a big bribe, the
biggest thing, the thing thatgives you that credibility,
because you owe that to them too, and then end it with a and
(23:41):
here's why I tell you you will,I'm telling you, john,
immediately you are, they'redone, they're like if they're
shopping law firms, you've gotthe business in the first three
minutes because nobody else isgonna do that.
They're gonna feel thisconnection, they're not even
gonna be able to name it and Idon't know why.
I really can't figure it out.
I really like this John guy.
Right, they may not even know,but it just it fast passes you
(24:06):
through the zero moments oftruth.
Do you ever talk about Zemontand the zero moments of truth at
all?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
No, not no.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
So the zero moments of truth is something that came
out of a I don't know a bigfinger at Google or something
like that, but it's pretty wellknown and recognized in the
marketing community andessentially in the old days they
always talked about firstmoments of truth and that was
like when you went to a grocerystore, you saw a new type of
cereal and decided am I gonnabuy this or not?
I mean, everything was verytransactional and like, how do
(24:36):
we get them at that time to buythat box of cereal at that first
moment of truth?
Well, times have changed andalso, as you think about big B2B
or bigger clients, like yourlisteners are doing, there's
something called a zero momentsof truth and that's the time
leading up to making a decision.
Do they know, like and trustyou, which is, I'm sure you know
(24:58):
, we use that all the time andthe zero moments of truth say
that in general, people needseven hours of interaction
across 11 interactions in fourlocations before they'll buy
from you.
That is the general truth andthat's why you know you think I
call it the olden days, but youknow it's why guys I hate to say
(25:21):
it, mostly guys went golfingright there.
You've got another location,you got four hours probably
knocked off, right, you like cutinto your Zemont immediately.
Or you've flown to SanFrancisco for an hour and a half
dinner, like, was that reallyworth it?
Well, yes, because it wasreducing Zemont.
You can still do those things,but in this modern day and age,
a lot of people don't.
(25:41):
They replace those with otherthings.
And there's really three thingsyou can do.
One is relationships, whicheverybody knows.
If you got a relationship, anintroduction, that's always, you
know, age old.
The second is really contentcreation.
That's why people do contentcreation, like a podcast, like a
LinkedIn article, like a book,right Behind the scenes.
People can get to know would Iwanna work with spotlight
(26:04):
branding?
Well, I don't have to do themeetings, I'm just gonna sleuth
through their podcast andthrough their articles and see
if I jive with their philosophy.
Are these good people?
Like, do they right?
Do they say the things that Ibelieve in?
And the third thing isauthenticity.
And authenticity is such aspeed pass.
I have been on a number of salescalls where, look, it was a big
(26:27):
, you know arrangement, a largesum.
I didn't really know the person, but by bringing in, you know,
the intriguing intro, by sort oftalking to them using languages
that isn't all stuffy beingrobotic, all the principles of
authenticity I was able tosignificantly reduce the Zmont,
and so the way I frame it topeople is like, look, you don't
(26:49):
have to be authentic, you canchoose not to pick that.
You absolutely can't.
Well, you have to do somethingto get Zmont down to zero and
you have to do something else.
So if you're not doing that,you have to do the steak dinners
or the write the books or tothe you know, and it's just a
matter of which one you wanna do.
And I think most people wouldsay, hmm, I think the
authenticity thing sounds alittle easier than you know.
(27:10):
Some of the other strategies.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, and as you're talking, I mean it's.
You know we didn't use thatexact terminology, but it's
still the same sort of processthat we tell our clients to do.
I mean, you have to stay top ofmind, you have to keep showing
up, and in different places, andthat's why it's good to be on
social media, it's good to havethe email newsletters going out.
It's good to have that sort ofintroduction and have that
(27:37):
framework be part of your biopage on your website if you're
not being able to meet thesepeople in person and really
start building up that rapportand building up that trust.
And it just it makes it so mucheasier because it, you know,
like you know again, it breaksdown those barriers, builds that
trust a lot faster.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
That's right, that's right.
And then the holy grail is ifyou can show up in those places
in an authentic way, right.
So your article.
Most lawyers talk with stuff,you stuff.
You talk with layman's termsand, funny you know, you say
poopy instead of whatever, likenow you're.
It's like double, double whammyspeed through the Zima.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Get the sale, get the client, yeah so, you know, and
to kind of start to wrap this uphere, you know I've talked with
a bunch of lawyers and I bringthis, I brought this up in other
episodes, but I I've talked toso many lawyers who just have
this mindset of that like I'mnot really that special, I don't
have anything unique, I'm justwriting wills for people, I'm
(28:32):
just, you know, filing divorcesfor people, like there's nothing
Super unique about me.
What do you, what do you say,to pay to like because, like,
granted, there may be someelement, like they may just feel
authentic in that regard oflike, yeah, this is just what I
do, this is the path I chose,whatever.
(28:53):
But how, how is how can you, ifyou take, if you keep that, or
if there is something authenticthat can be pulled out, how do
you get that started?
How do you even find that?
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Yeah, well, I mean, it starts with a lot of
questions, but I think the thethe first thing I would frame up
for them is people don't buyProducts and services.
You know that they trust.
They buy from people they trust, right, and so the first place
you look I mean first place mostcompanies look for their
uniqueness is in their productsand services.
Right, and that's why I spendso much time, you know, spending
(29:26):
money on technology and fancybillboards or whatever it is,
and Instead could be spending alot less time on what I call
like bargain innovation, andbargain innovation is
essentially Finding theinnovative things in you, or
it's not even innovative, right,like.
So I think when you're lookingfor what's unique, I mean it
(29:48):
could be that you know on inyour spare time, you are a head
referee for soccer, you know NewYork, and when you do that,
this is what you learn from itand bring into your practice.
It could be that you came froma background of poverty and now
that you're, you know that youdo your legal activity.
(30:09):
It sort of informs how you knowthe practice of what you're
doing.
I think I would be very, veryshocked if anybody listening
right now Couldn't findsomething that's unique, and so
I think the first place you needto look at is you.
It's like the example back toRenee.
You know, it wasn't about maybeher practice and how they did
(30:29):
things, but it was about her andand and and.
Not just about her, but thefact that she was willing to
expose it.
So, look at you.
Look at you first, find what'sunique about you and, and if you
can't do that, you know, get acoach or somebody a business
coach.
I mean, this is what I do.
I work with with companies tohelp them grow it, and you know
Somebody they can look at itfrom the outside in will, will
(30:50):
ask the right questions andprobably see things pretty darn
quickly that you can Leverage.
And then you just have to havethe guts to do it a little bit
differently and they go outthere and expose it and stand,
you know, strong against it,even if everybody else isn't,
because that's where the poweris.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, no, and it's such a great transition You're
professional at this, like I wasgoing to say, like that's why
it's important to work withsomeone like you, because I
think a lot of times businessowners, lawyers, they, they it's
almost like they approach theiraudience as if they're just
trying to sell to themselves andand You're not Buying your
(31:30):
service from yourself, you know.
And so it's easy to kind of getbored and jaded with your own
story, because you've lived itevery single day, you're used to
it.
But the people who you'rebuilding that trust with, the
people who are going to buy fromyou and work with you, it's all
brand new to them and it can bevery exciting with them.
And so that's where thatencouragement and working with
(31:52):
someone like you can pull thatout and kind of reframe that
perspective To really amplifythat value in what makes someone
unique and authentic.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yeah, and if you don't mind, I'm gonna be a
little bit contrarian even tothat.
I think, yeah, honestly, john,it's the opposite.
When you say people try to sellwhat they think they'd want to
buy, they're not honest withthemselves on how they buy.
I feel like you know I do thisall the time when I work with
groups and you know, for example, one one executive group I
(32:25):
worked with, they had anupcoming town hall and the woman
was confessing I, or they,already had it.
And she said you know, I wasthinking about when I was gonna
do my piece, I was gonna tell astory and I was gonna do kind of
more authentic.
But then I thought that's notwhat everybody else wants and I
looked around the group.
I said raise your hand.
(32:45):
If you a, you'd prefer somebody, go in with the rigid, give the
update on the numbers, theexpected.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
You know none of the hands went up.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
And then how many people would rather have heard
the messy story, theinspirational and all the hands
go up, and I Actually think wehave a disease of this.
This is how I this is themetaphor I use.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
You know, when you have a kid's birthday party
they're three or four years oldthey go to like the bouncy house
.
Then they come into the roomand they do the pizza and the
cake right, and they get thepizza and then they come around
with a cake and they give caketo the kids and they're all like
, oh, can I get a bigger piece,or can I get more ice cream, are
they all?
You know, they all take thecake and then the parents are
awkwardly standing around theoutside and then they have some
extra and they come around andof course they ask would John,
(33:27):
would you like a piece of cake?
What do most parents say?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I haven't gotten that far yet.
My son's only like two and ahalf months old.
I mean, I know I would probablylike my initial reaction would
be like no, I'm good and letpeople move on, but maybe other
people might be.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Thank you for being honest.
No, that's.
Most people say no, but whatare most people thinking?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, it'd be good to have some.
I really would love it.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
That's authenticity at work, and I think when we say
, oh, we're marketing like wewant to be market, I think if
you really slow down and youtake off your hat as the
business owner and put on yourhat as a consumer, like you've
done throughout this interviewright, you've like, you're like,
oh well, that's how I and youreally think about what you are
(34:15):
most attracted to and youmarketed that way, yes, actually
, I think you'd be moresuccessful.
I think we're just not honestto ourselves.
Instead, we try to build whatwe should, or looks cool, or we
think other people want, andthat we have this disease where
the only one that secretly wantsthe cake and it's like no guess
what they all want the cake.
Yeah, and give them thefreaking cake.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree, and that was
what I was trying to articulate.
I think a lot of lawyers theyget in this space of like
they're market.
A lot of times they market toother lawyers and their content
is geared toward other lawyers,and other lawyers aren't the
ones who are hiring you for yourservice, it is the audience,
and so what peaks youraudience's interest may be very
(34:56):
different from what peaksanother lawyer's interest and
being able to break down thatbarrier is what's really gonna
help help your firm and helpgrow so much more.
So a lot, tons of great infohere.
How can people learn more aboutyou and follow you and see
everything that you've got goingon?
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yeah, I mean, the best place to sort of find me is
LinkedIn.
I have a website, but I'm mostactive on LinkedIn, so connect
with me there.
And then, yeah, if you'relistening to a podcast, you can
also listen to, because WorkDoesn't have to Suck where we
sort of help you do things moreauthentically and then see if
anything floats your boat.
(35:35):
And then there's lots of otherways that you can get involved
in the authenticity movement.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Awesome, love it.
One final question for youbefore we wrap up.
If you had one last piece ofadvice for our audience, what
would it be?
Speaker 3 (35:47):
You know I'm writing my next book and I think it
would be the 50% rule becauseI'm totally obsessed with it.
So the next book is called the50% Rule.
My first book was called you DoYou-ish, which was really about
authenticity and what we'retalking about.
How do you use it as asuperpower?
The 50% rule is this stupid,simple rule, john, that
(36:08):
basically says, every timeyou're given advice including
this podcast, including listento you and me or you're looking
at how things were done beforeyou're trying something new,
only take about half of what wasdone before, what people tell
you, leave the half that doesn'tfeel like you, that you think
you could do better and curatethat with something new and
(36:32):
different.
And it sounds stupid, but I'mtelling you people, if you could
just every time you get stuckin the next week, say to
yourself how could I 50% rulethis?
It's magical and it's got somany twists and turns that I'm
actually you got a full bookalready written on it working
with a publisher and I'm justtotally addicted to it.
(36:54):
So that would be my advice 50%rule your barriers for the next
week and see how that works out.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, no, I love that and I definitely want to learn
more about that, because, god, Imean, how many times do we get
frustrated when people ask usfor advice and then they don't
listen to any of it because it'swhat they want here, or where
someone gives us advice and it'snot what we want to hear?
So, like that is a really,really interesting concept that
people can really take with them.
(37:22):
So, thank you so much fortaking some time to join us this
week, and that's gonna do itfirst here on Center Stage.
Thank you so much forcontinuing to listen.
Again, you know, rate andreview the show.
Let us know what you'd like tohear from us in the future, and
that's gonna do it, aaron.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
You're welcome.
Thanks, John.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Thanks for listening.
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Slash center stage.
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Speaker 2 (00:53):
This is Center Stage putting your firm in the
spotlight by highlightingbusiness owners and other
industry experts to help takeyour firm to the next level.
Hey everyone, and welcome toCenter Stage.
I'm your host, john Henson, andtoday we are continuing on a
theme that we've touched on afew times here lately, and that
is about your authenticity andhow it shines through your
(01:17):
marketing message.
It comes through in how younetwork.
It comes through in just evenmarketing aside just in how you
approach the legal work that youdo, and so it's been a very
important conversation andsomething that I really want to
get to new driving home, becauseI continue to hear lawyers out
(01:37):
there talk about like, oh, I'mnot really that special, I don't
really do anything unique, I'mjust doing this or doing that
with clients, and that's reallynot the case.
Like, you do have a uniquemessage.
There is something there thathelps you stand out and that's
something that you do that isvery special.
And so, to add on to thisconversation and to help share
her insights, I am joined by thefounder of Be Authentic,
(01:58):
incorporated, erin Hatzakostas.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Thank you so much for nailing my name.
You rocked it Awesome.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I got it.
As soon as I got to it I waslike, oh man, I don't remember
if I know how to say it right,yeah, People freak out.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I see it every time, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I had an internal moment.
I know I get it, it's OK.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, all right, at least we got past it.
So glad you're here.
Before we jump in, tell us alittle bit about yourself and
why this area is so important toyou.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Yeah, so just a little bit of my background.
I started in the corporateworkspace about 25 years ago.
I was at Western MichiganUniversity sophomore year,
dropped out of engineering,didn't know what I wanted to do,
and my roommate came home oneday and she was so jacked up
she's like, oh my god, Erin, Ifound the career for you.
(02:48):
I found it.
I'm like, OK, Amy, what is it?
And she's like, no, no, no,it's high pay, low stress.
And I was like, OK, I'mlistening.
She's like it's called anactuary.
And I was like, oh, and this is1996.
So I couldn't Google just howquote unquote cool actuary.
So I pursued it right Becausehigh pay, low stress and ended
(03:12):
up coming out to the East Coastworking, getting a job with
Aetna swindled them in and Ispent about three years taking
exams.
I think I took seven exams.
I also spent three yearsfailing seven actuarial exams,
which was really fun as a highachiever to completely and
utterly fail in your firstcareer on an objective level.
(03:32):
But I was lucky.
I was at a big company and sothere were a lot of
opportunities and I sort ofbobbed and weaved my way, as we
do, doing things that werehighly unqualified to do and
eventually, speaking of highlyunqualified, I eventually was
named the CEO of one of theirsubsidiary companies.
Now, this is important.
(03:53):
I am a small town girl.
I had teachers as parents, Ihad no aspirations, I was a hard
worker, I was sharp, I did goodat what I do, but I was not
that person that was like I'mgoing to be an executive, I'm
going to have the big job, and Itook over the division.
It sounded sexy.
(04:14):
But most people are like, areyou crazy?
Because the company was likejust a disaster.
It was integration gone bad.
It was a acquired company.
It was the classic let's bringin these entrepreneurs and then
give them no money to do whatthey need to do and then yell at
them when it doesn't go well.
And so I took over at a toughtime and earnings have been flat
(04:36):
for years.
And when you have flat earningsyou can't reinvest in the
business, and so that'sfrustrating, right.
You can't innovate, you can'tinvest in your people.
Everybody was feeling it.
And I took over and three yearslater, as CEO, we tripled
earnings and employee engagementwent up 15%.
And along the way I didn't haveimposter syndrome to say, but I
(05:00):
was always sort of like when amI going to be found out?
When is either my luck going torun out or I'm going to be
found out?
Because here's why I would lookaround me and I'd look at my
peers and they weren'tsacrificing as much as I was.
They weren't grinding it out,they weren't traveling every
week.
I wasn't traveling every weeklike they were.
(05:22):
I wasn't moving my family, Iwasn't working every weekend.
And so I kind of thought, ok, atsome point, like your success
cannot continue, right.
And then it's kind of a wholeanother track which we won't get
into, but I sort of got thisitch and decided it was time to
sort of jump out of corporate.
I was just really scratchingfor something new.
(05:43):
It felt stupid because thingswere going really well.
But when I announced myretirement, people kept saying
we're going to miss yourauthentic leadership, like
message after message,discussion after discussion.
And I wasn't surprised theycalled me authentic.
But I never before that.
I wasn't like this badge thathad pinned, pinned.
And here's why I tell you thisas a frame for everything.
(06:05):
We're going to talk about what Irealized and I won't say in
that moment because it takes alittle while right, I put
together I wasn't gonna be foundout.
I was just playing a differentgame than everybody else, than
every other executive, and I wasnot just being authentic.
We can get into that for myself, because authenticity isn't a
(06:28):
permission, it's a power.
It's not about you, it'sactually about you working hard
to buck the norm and exposethings so that other people can
trust you and connect with you,et cetera.
But what I had realized wasthat I was using that
strategically subconsciously.
I had learned it from my fatherand did all that digging and
wrote about that in my firstbook.
But I realized that I wasretaining the best talent
(06:51):
because of my authenticity.
I was creating greatconnections and trust with our
customers.
Because of it, I wasnegotiating deals better, not
because I was strategic, butbecause I was using authenticity
and they were thrown off by it,and then they were connected.
By it, I was getting attention.
And so I tell you all of thatto say that I truly believe in
(07:12):
this concept of authenticity,and not just as a lazy thing
that you give yourselfpermission to do, but as
something that can be strategicand has to be actually
purposeful.
Here's why Because in business,whether you're in the big
corporation or, like yourlisteners, running your own
business, which I do now too thenorm takes you down this river
(07:35):
of not being authentic.
It's just easy to get caught upin.
So it takes work, it takesthought, it takes a little bit
of guts to purposely beauthentic.
But if you do, I promise youthe results will be amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, and it kind of sounds like, at least from where
I'm sitting, especially in thecorporate world there's almost
like a game you have to play.
There's these kind of standardexpectations.
You kind of are supposed to acta certain way, say certain
things a certain way, and thensomeone comes along, someone
like you comes along, and you'renot doing that not necessarily
(08:11):
out of rebellion or because youdon't like it, but you're just
being yourself and that throwsso many people off that now it's
called authentic or maybe it'sunique or whatever the case is.
And so at least that's what Iwas hearing from a lot of what
you're saying.
And so how do you defineauthenticity?
(08:32):
Because I know that that's apretty, it's kind of a buzzword
right now.
I mean, I know, at least for mepersonally we set our goals to
start this year.
Mine was to be more authentic,ironically, and so it's
interesting and I wanna hear howyou kind of define all of this,
because, at least for me, I'mseeing it more as just kind of
(08:53):
leaning into the things thatmake you stand out and unique.
But how do you see it?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah, I mean a couple of things.
One I always deprogram it's notbeing yourself, it's not
synonymous with being yourselfand it's not synonymous with
transparency.
They're two different things.
The Greek root is authenticos,and authenticos means three
things.
It means to be genuine, whichjust makes sense, right, but it
also means to be original andauthoritative, and so
(09:23):
authenticity is sort of this, Ithink I like to say it's sort of
partly being yourself andpartly being badass.
It's like if Joe Exotic andKamala Harris had a baby
together, right?
It's like you know.
And so how I define it myselfis a couple of ways.
One, the definition I use asauthenticity, is about exposing
(09:45):
who you are when people leastexpect it, in the service of
others.
And then I have a frameworkcalled the Six Principles of
Strategic Authenticity, with anacronym humans, which walks
through six things and I alwaystell people of course it's not
to tell you how to be 100%authentic, that would be
(10:08):
hypocritical, but the principles.
The humans framework is reallytraining wheels or, to mix
metaphors, sort of a lifepreserver so that you can start
swimming upstream and then youcan start to learn about it.
Preserver so that you can startswimming upstream of that
current that brings you down.
Inauthentic.
It's things that you can startto do, to start to catch the bug
(10:29):
, because what you said beforewas absolutely right.
I wasn't doing it just out ofrebellion.
The reason I was doing it and Ididn't realize I had been
collecting data points for yearsand years and years.
First of all, I didn't startbeing authentic as a CEO.
It has been what was making mesuccessful, leading up to that
right.
And the reason I had been doingit was the quote, unquote data
(10:49):
points I had collected frommostly from my father, watching
his success being that way butsubconsciously going, oh, it's
okay, or oh, when he does that,people like him, he sells more
business, he's a better teacher.
You know, he's in a couple ofdifferent businesses.
So the framework again is meantto sort of get you into out of
(11:10):
that going through the motionsthat business can do, doing
things right, following theformula, looking like a smart
lawyer who has all their pooptogether, right, and so you know
, experimenting with some ofthese things will start to give
you those data points and getyou addicted to it, actually,
quite frankly, cause those datapoints are gonna be like, oh,
(11:30):
like how this client like reallylaughed and came back for more
business, or this grew, and nowlike, once you do that a few
times, you don't need the humansframework, right, you're just
gonna be addicted to your owndata points and you're gonna
start doing things differently.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, and so and I think this is really pertinent
for our audience, because Ithink a lot of times lawyers may
feel handcuffed by this cloudof all of these ethics, rules
and codes of conduct around them, and so they probably, you know
, I think a lot of them thinkthat they have to act and
conduct themselves a certain wayand to an extent they do Like.
(12:05):
But I think that that leash isprobably a lot longer than they
may realize and they still havethat flexibility to be authentic
and to still, like you said.
You know, I think there's likethis weird dichotomy where they
think, you know, people thinklawyers have to act a certain
way and then lawyers then playinto that.
(12:26):
And coming out and beingauthentic, like you said, when
people don't expect it, I thinkreally opens up a lot of
opportunity for them to be moreeffective and to do a lot better
work for the people thatthey're serving.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think they get you know
it's easy to get stuck in.
I have to be this way becauseit makes me look smart.
Incredible when we forget thatthe number one most important
business especially for lawyers,but including lawyers is trust.
It's trust.
It's trust in connection withtheir clients, with judges, with
(13:04):
you know, whoever you know, andand there is no faster past to
that connection and trust thanauthenticity.
We have the data, it shows it,and so and I think I'd love to
tell a quick story to that thatsort of brings us to life,
specific to your audience.
So I have a podcast as well.
(13:24):
It's called Because WorkDoesn't have to Suck, and I
co-host it with my good friend,nicole.
We've been doing it for four anda half years and she has a good
friend.
Her name is Nicole it's notNicole, renee Bauer, and Renee
has owned her own law firm.
She's a family practice lawyer,owned her own firm for 12 plus
years and was doing really well,award winning practice here in
(13:49):
Connecticut doing well, andNicole had her on our podcast.
She was one of our probablyfirst 15 interviews or so and
Nicole interviewed her andbecause she was a good friend
and Nicole's crazy, she showedup at Renee's house with a huge
platter of sushi, you know, abottle, maybe two, of wine, and
was like we're going to have funwith this right, and she
(14:10):
started asking Renee questions.
Now, renee now has a podcastand the speaker but it was her
first podcast.
And so Nicole just, you know,because we're all about
authenticity she really dug intoher background and Nicole,
because she knew her so well,knew that Renee also herself had
been divorced twice and she'snow happily married to, honestly
, jay's, the best guy ever.
(14:31):
But, you know, had gone through, obviously, some ups and downs
herself and then, ironically,was a family practice lawyer.
And so Nicole asked her somequestions about that.
And I don't know if it was theunexpectedness, you know, or the
wine, or the sushi, or all ofit.
You know Renee answered it,yeah, and talked about her own
experience, which she'd neverdone before, and Nicole,
(14:53):
afterwards she told her, youknow, that's the first time I've
really talked openly about myown, you know situation going
through divorce.
And Nicole is like, oh my gosh,I didn't realize that.
And you know, I think Renee, ofcourse, her thought was, well,
no, that if I talk about that,that's going to make me look
like a not credible who wants towork with a divorce attorney
(15:14):
who's on her third marriage,right, and so we released the
episode and what has happenedsince then is nothing short of
amazing.
I mean her, her law firm hascompletely exploded.
She so much so that shortlyafter she started a brand called
happy even after and renamedher, so really sort of helping
(15:36):
people understand it was morethan just legal she started
telling her story.
A lot of her clients are women,helping them with their sort of
their happy even after andcreated a whole whole brand of
business and etc.
And so it's just a good exampleof how you know when we say
authenticity, it's not onethical and it's not even
(15:57):
necessarily fancy, it's justexposing who you are when people
least expect it to serve others.
And she was serving others bysaying hey, look, I get where
you've been.
I was, I've been there too, andthat makes me, you know,
probably a better trustedresource.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, and so to kind of, you know, reiterate that,
you know, especially with ouraudience.
And this is such a greatexample because I think a lot of
times lawyers might feel alittle bit hesitant to be
authentic out of fear ofexposing who they really are and
(16:33):
that being some kind ofnegative thing.
But especially in this case,you know, it's one of those
things where it ended up reallybecoming a positive for her and
helped people really connectwith her in a positive way, even
though maybe on paper it couldbe seen as a negative situation.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, yeah, and there's science behind it.
Have you ever heard of thepratfall effect?
I have?
not yeah, I mean.
So humility is one of the sixprimary kimono.
That's the age in humans, butthere is, there's data.
So back in 1960s there was apsychologist that had this
(17:13):
theory that people who did apratfall which is kind of an old
world name for like, didsomething wrong or a humility
moment right, it's, you know,something you use in acting but
it's like a blunder.
So his theory was that peoplewho were seen as competent this
is really important he thoughtwhen they have a blunder or a
(17:35):
pratfall we'll actually be morelikable or more selected.
And so he conducted anexperiment.
He put people into four groupscompetent without a pratfall,
competent with a pratfall andthen less competent with and
without a pratfall.
And the experiment was aroundwhat the people listening
(17:55):
thought these people were tryingout for, like a game show.
So it was very objective, likethey were getting some answers.
You know, the competent oneswere clearly competent.
They were getting more answersright.
Others weren't and they hadthese groups listen and the ones
that had the pratfall.
The pratfall was just them atthe end of the contest or
whatever their submission,saying, oh crap, I just I
(18:17):
spilled some coffee on my jacketright, pretending like they
accidentally spilled coffee andwhat his experiment found was
that, in fact, those that werecompetent, that had that blunder
and spilled the coffee wereselected significantly more as
the contestants as more likable.
The same was not true when theywere seen as less competent.
(18:41):
That it actually brought itdown, and I think that's a
really important point.
You know authenticity, orexposing who you are, your
humility moment.
If you just do that and thenyou do sloppy work and you don't
follow up timely and it willhurt you.
But if you have a track record,if you are doing good business,
(19:02):
if you are organized and doingyour practice well which I would
imagine most of your listenersare and strive to do that adding
in that humility moment, thatauthenticity, a pratfall,
whatever you wanna call itactually will make their stakes
go up and the experiment, thedata, the science, the pratfall
effect confirms that.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, yeah, and that makes total sense to me Because
I mean, I'm thinking aboutmyself as a consumer.
You know, to me if I'm gettinga divorce, I look more favorably
on a lawyer who has also gonethrough divorce, because they
can at least empathize with meto a higher level than someone
(19:46):
who's been like yeah, I've beenmarried for 25 years,
everything's great.
I don't know why you can't dothat Like.
That's just at least how mymind would work 100%, 100%.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
People wanna connect.
I mean we want imperfection,like drug dealers want cocaine,
like we crave it.
We crave seeing whether it'sour friends, and going into
their house and being like, oh,thank God it's messy right.
Like, oh, makes me feel bad,like we don't care about their
house.
Like when it's clean we're notlike, oh, they're so amazing.
No, we think, god, I'm socrappy at keeping my house right
(20:18):
.
We all bring it back toourselves.
So when we see thoseimperfections, it's such a
relief and it's just likeimmediate, like, oh, you're just
like me, you're not perfect.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah.
So what does this look like?
You know, I think you know it'seasy for us to imagine these
sorts of things in actionable,tangible steps, so beyond, just
kind of like a mindset thing,like how can authenticity be
something that's tangible andactionable, like what can people
do?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit.
So the framework humans, thesix principles it stands for
humility, being unexpected,modeling, adapting, narrating
and sparking, and so withinthose, there's a couple
experiments and tangible thingsthat I would give to you.
I mean, the first, and probablythe most powerful, that
(21:10):
combines both the humility andthe storytelling or narrate, is
in your introduction.
When you're meeting new clientsor new judges or whoever it's
creating what I call anintriguing intro, because most
people would be like hey, john,nice to meet you.
Tell me a little about yourself.
Well, I've spent four yearsdoing marketing and podcasting,
(21:32):
and then you give them sort oflike the resume and, especially
if you're in a group setting,nobody heard a thing you said,
because you know what they'redoing, they're thinking about
what they're going to say, right, unless you're last, they're
like oh, I have no idea what youjust said, because I'm trying
to figure out what my intro isgoing to be.
Instead, if you can create anintro that combines a humility
(21:53):
moment with what I call a bigbrag, so that might look like.
You know, I do this exercisewith groups all the time, where
you write down all your humilitymoments and maybe you say to me
do a super simple one, you know.
Let's say you're a lawyer,you're like I fail.
You know what One of myhumility moments?
I failed, you know,constitutional law 101.
(22:17):
When I was in college, like F.
Okay.
Now do you have to expose that?
No, there's nothing in ethicsIf you're running a practice
that says you have to tell themyour grades on every class.
Do people expect you expose it?
Absolutely not.
But let's say you say you know.
Look, first thing I have to tellyou about myself is I was
gung-ho.
I'm becoming a lawyer, got myundergraduate degree, I went to
(22:39):
law school and I took my youknow first semester and guess
what I got in constitutional law.
I got a big fat off, but Ididn't give up.
I finished school and I went onfrom there and I went to XYZ
law firm.
Within two years I became thehottest ticket on town, or
whatever your big brag is.
(22:59):
I closed X number of cases andthen decided to do this.
And the reason I tell you all ofthis is because, if you work
with me, understand that you'renot getting somebody who gets it
right all the time, but you'regetting somebody that's always
gonna tell you the truth andtell you what's going on and
(23:20):
that's a very obvious.
But there's so many ways.
If you kind of play with whatis this humility moment, I can
expose a time when you messed up, couple that with your
competence, like in the pratfalleffect, like a big bribe, the
biggest thing, the thing thatgives you that credibility,
because you owe that to them too, and then end it with a and
(23:41):
here's why I tell you you will,I'm telling you, john,
immediately you are, they'redone, they're like if they're
shopping law firms, you've gotthe business in the first three
minutes because nobody else isgonna do that.
They're gonna feel thisconnection, they're not even
gonna be able to name it and Idon't know why.
I really can't figure it out.
I really like this John guy.
Right, they may not even know,but it just it fast passes you
(24:06):
through the zero moments oftruth.
Do you ever talk about Zemontand the zero moments of truth at
all?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
No, not no.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
So the zero moments of truth is something that came
out of a I don't know a bigfinger at Google or something
like that, but it's pretty wellknown and recognized in the
marketing community andessentially in the old days they
always talked about firstmoments of truth and that was
like when you went to a grocerystore, you saw a new type of
cereal and decided am I gonnabuy this or not?
I mean, everything was verytransactional and like, how do
(24:36):
we get them at that time to buythat box of cereal at that first
moment of truth?
Well, times have changed andalso, as you think about big B2B
or bigger clients, like yourlisteners are doing, there's
something called a zero momentsof truth and that's the time
leading up to making a decision.
Do they know, like and trustyou, which is, I'm sure you know
(24:58):
, we use that all the time andthe zero moments of truth say
that in general, people needseven hours of interaction
across 11 interactions in fourlocations before they'll buy
from you.
That is the general truth andthat's why you know you think I
call it the olden days, but youknow it's why guys I hate to say
(25:21):
it, mostly guys went golfingright there.
You've got another location,you got four hours probably
knocked off, right, you like cutinto your Zemont immediately.
Or you've flown to SanFrancisco for an hour and a half
dinner, like, was that reallyworth it?
Well, yes, because it wasreducing Zemont.
You can still do those things,but in this modern day and age,
a lot of people don't.
(25:41):
They replace those with otherthings.
And there's really three thingsyou can do.
One is relationships, whicheverybody knows.
If you got a relationship, anintroduction, that's always, you
know, age old.
The second is really contentcreation.
That's why people do contentcreation, like a podcast, like a
LinkedIn article, like a book,right Behind the scenes.
People can get to know would Iwanna work with spotlight
(26:04):
branding?
Well, I don't have to do themeetings, I'm just gonna sleuth
through their podcast andthrough their articles and see
if I jive with their philosophy.
Are these good people?
Like, do they right?
Do they say the things that Ibelieve in?
And the third thing isauthenticity.
And authenticity is such aspeed pass.
I have been on a number of salescalls where, look, it was a big
(26:27):
, you know arrangement, a largesum.
I didn't really know the person, but by bringing in, you know,
the intriguing intro, by sort oftalking to them using languages
that isn't all stuffy beingrobotic, all the principles of
authenticity I was able tosignificantly reduce the Zmont,
and so the way I frame it topeople is like, look, you don't
(26:49):
have to be authentic, you canchoose not to pick that.
You absolutely can't.
Well, you have to do somethingto get Zmont down to zero and
you have to do something else.
So if you're not doing that,you have to do the steak dinners
or the write the books or tothe you know, and it's just a
matter of which one you wanna do.
And I think most people wouldsay, hmm, I think the
authenticity thing sounds alittle easier than you know.
(27:10):
Some of the other strategies.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, and as you're talking, I mean it's.
You know we didn't use thatexact terminology, but it's
still the same sort of processthat we tell our clients to do.
I mean, you have to stay top ofmind, you have to keep showing
up, and in different places, andthat's why it's good to be on
social media, it's good to havethe email newsletters going out.
It's good to have that sort ofintroduction and have that
(27:37):
framework be part of your biopage on your website if you're
not being able to meet thesepeople in person and really
start building up that rapportand building up that trust.
And it just it makes it so mucheasier because it, you know,
like you know again, it breaksdown those barriers, builds that
trust a lot faster.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
That's right, that's right.
And then the holy grail is ifyou can show up in those places
in an authentic way, right.
So your article.
Most lawyers talk with stuff,you stuff.
You talk with layman's termsand, funny you know, you say
poopy instead of whatever, likenow you're.
It's like double, double whammyspeed through the Zima.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Get the sale, get the client, yeah so, you know, and
to kind of start to wrap this uphere, you know I've talked with
a bunch of lawyers and I bringthis, I brought this up in other
episodes, but I I've talked toso many lawyers who just have
this mindset of that like I'mnot really that special, I don't
have anything unique, I'm justwriting wills for people, I'm
(28:32):
just, you know, filing divorcesfor people, like there's nothing
Super unique about me.
What do you, what do you say,to pay to like because, like,
granted, there may be someelement, like they may just feel
authentic in that regard oflike, yeah, this is just what I
do, this is the path I chose,whatever.
(28:53):
But how, how is how can you, ifyou take, if you keep that, or
if there is something authenticthat can be pulled out, how do
you get that started?
How do you even find that?
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Yeah, well, I mean, it starts with a lot of
questions, but I think the thethe first thing I would frame up
for them is people don't buyProducts and services.
You know that they trust.
They buy from people they trust, right, and so the first place
you look I mean first place mostcompanies look for their
uniqueness is in their productsand services.
Right, and that's why I spendso much time, you know, spending
(29:26):
money on technology and fancybillboards or whatever it is,
and Instead could be spending alot less time on what I call
like bargain innovation, andbargain innovation is
essentially Finding theinnovative things in you, or
it's not even innovative, right,like.
So I think when you're lookingfor what's unique, I mean it
(29:48):
could be that you know on inyour spare time, you are a head
referee for soccer, you know NewYork, and when you do that,
this is what you learn from itand bring into your practice.
It could be that you came froma background of poverty and now
that you're, you know that youdo your legal activity.
(30:09):
It sort of informs how you knowthe practice of what you're
doing.
I think I would be very, veryshocked if anybody listening
right now Couldn't findsomething that's unique, and so
I think the first place you needto look at is you.
It's like the example back toRenee.
You know, it wasn't about maybeher practice and how they did
(30:29):
things, but it was about her andand and and.
Not just about her, but thefact that she was willing to
expose it.
So, look at you.
Look at you first, find what'sunique about you and, and if you
can't do that, you know, get acoach or somebody a business
coach.
I mean, this is what I do.
I work with with companies tohelp them grow it, and you know
Somebody they can look at itfrom the outside in will, will
(30:50):
ask the right questions andprobably see things pretty darn
quickly that you can Leverage.
And then you just have to havethe guts to do it a little bit
differently and they go outthere and expose it and stand,
you know, strong against it,even if everybody else isn't,
because that's where the poweris.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, no, and it's such a great transition You're
professional at this, like I wasgoing to say, like that's why
it's important to work withsomeone like you, because I
think a lot of times businessowners, lawyers, they, they it's
almost like they approach theiraudience as if they're just
trying to sell to themselves andand You're not Buying your
(31:30):
service from yourself, you know.
And so it's easy to kind of getbored and jaded with your own
story, because you've lived itevery single day, you're used to
it.
But the people who you'rebuilding that trust with, the
people who are going to buy fromyou and work with you, it's all
brand new to them and it can bevery exciting with them.
And so that's where thatencouragement and working with
(31:52):
someone like you can pull thatout and kind of reframe that
perspective To really amplifythat value in what makes someone
unique and authentic.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yeah, and if you don't mind, I'm gonna be a
little bit contrarian even tothat.
I think, yeah, honestly, john,it's the opposite.
When you say people try to sellwhat they think they'd want to
buy, they're not honest withthemselves on how they buy.
I feel like you know I do thisall the time when I work with
groups and you know, for example, one one executive group I
(32:25):
worked with, they had anupcoming town hall and the woman
was confessing I, or they,already had it.
And she said you know, I wasthinking about when I was gonna
do my piece, I was gonna tell astory and I was gonna do kind of
more authentic.
But then I thought that's notwhat everybody else wants and I
looked around the group.
I said raise your hand.
(32:45):
If you a, you'd prefer somebody, go in with the rigid, give the
update on the numbers, theexpected.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
You know none of the hands went up.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
And then how many people would rather have heard
the messy story, theinspirational and all the hands
go up, and I Actually think wehave a disease of this.
This is how I this is themetaphor I use.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
You know, when you have a kid's birthday party
they're three or four years oldthey go to like the bouncy house
.
Then they come into the roomand they do the pizza and the
cake right, and they get thepizza and then they come around
with a cake and they give caketo the kids and they're all like
, oh, can I get a bigger piece,or can I get more ice cream, are
they all?
You know, they all take thecake and then the parents are
awkwardly standing around theoutside and then they have some
extra and they come around andof course they ask would John,
(33:27):
would you like a piece of cake?
What do most parents say?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I haven't gotten that far yet.
My son's only like two and ahalf months old.
I mean, I know I would probablylike my initial reaction would
be like no, I'm good and letpeople move on, but maybe other
people might be.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Thank you for being honest.
No, that's.
Most people say no, but whatare most people thinking?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, it'd be good to have some.
I really would love it.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
That's authenticity at work, and I think when we say
, oh, we're marketing like wewant to be market, I think if
you really slow down and youtake off your hat as the
business owner and put on yourhat as a consumer, like you've
done throughout this interviewright, you've like, you're like,
oh well, that's how I and youreally think about what you are
(34:15):
most attracted to and youmarketed that way, yes, actually
, I think you'd be moresuccessful.
I think we're just not honestto ourselves.
Instead, we try to build whatwe should, or looks cool, or we
think other people want, andthat we have this disease where
the only one that secretly wantsthe cake and it's like no guess
what they all want the cake.
Yeah, and give them thefreaking cake.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree, and that was
what I was trying to articulate.
I think a lot of lawyers theyget in this space of like
they're market.
A lot of times they market toother lawyers and their content
is geared toward other lawyers,and other lawyers aren't the
ones who are hiring you for yourservice, it is the audience,
and so what peaks youraudience's interest may be very
(34:56):
different from what peaksanother lawyer's interest and
being able to break down thatbarrier is what's really gonna
help help your firm and helpgrow so much more.
So a lot, tons of great infohere.
How can people learn more aboutyou and follow you and see
everything that you've got goingon?
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yeah, I mean, the best place to sort of find me is
LinkedIn.
I have a website, but I'm mostactive on LinkedIn, so connect
with me there.
And then, yeah, if you'relistening to a podcast, you can
also listen to, because WorkDoesn't have to Suck where we
sort of help you do things moreauthentically and then see if
anything floats your boat.
(35:35):
And then there's lots of otherways that you can get involved
in the authenticity movement.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Awesome, love it.
One final question for youbefore we wrap up.
If you had one last piece ofadvice for our audience, what
would it be?
Speaker 3 (35:47):
You know I'm writing my next book and I think it
would be the 50% rule becauseI'm totally obsessed with it.
So the next book is called the50% Rule.
My first book was called you DoYou-ish, which was really about
authenticity and what we'retalking about.
How do you use it as asuperpower?
The 50% rule is this stupid,simple rule, john, that
(36:08):
basically says, every timeyou're given advice including
this podcast, including listento you and me or you're looking
at how things were done beforeyou're trying something new,
only take about half of what wasdone before, what people tell
you, leave the half that doesn'tfeel like you, that you think
you could do better and curatethat with something new and
(36:32):
different.
And it sounds stupid, but I'mtelling you people, if you could
just every time you get stuckin the next week, say to
yourself how could I 50% rulethis?
It's magical and it's got somany twists and turns that I'm
actually you got a full bookalready written on it working
with a publisher and I'm justtotally addicted to it.
(36:54):
So that would be my advice 50%rule your barriers for the next
week and see how that works out.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, no, I love that and I definitely want to learn
more about that, because, god, Imean, how many times do we get
frustrated when people ask usfor advice and then they don't
listen to any of it because it'swhat they want here, or where
someone gives us advice and it'snot what we want to hear?
So, like that is a really,really interesting concept that
people can really take with them.
(37:22):
So, thank you so much fortaking some time to join us this
week, and that's gonna do itfirst here on Center Stage.
Thank you so much forcontinuing to listen.
Again, you know, rate andreview the show.
Let us know what you'd like tohear from us in the future, and
that's gonna do it, aaron.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
You're welcome.
Thanks, John.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Thanks for listening.
To learn more, go tospotlightbrandingcom.
Slash center stage.
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