May 4, 2022 • 47 mins
Whether or not you want to admit it, you're in sales. It's not just a profession or title description. Anyone who introduces themselves, interacts with others, persuades and influences...is in sales. There is a lot of resistance and declaration of not wanting to "sound salesy" and it's high time you got over it because it often stands in the way of getting outcomes you say you want. Charlene DeCesare is here to help. Charlene is a Senior Consultant and Lead Facilitator for the research-based sales training company, The RAIN Group, and iauthor of "The Email Cemetery: Where Bad Sales Emails Go to Die & How to Resuscitate Yours." Learn practical steps to improving communication and buy-in. This episode has at least one new takeaway for everyone regardless of how long you've been in sales or avoiding saying you sell.
Notes:
Wynning Your Way for Senior Leaders
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Kithcart (00:03):
Hello, I'm Michael W Kithcart, high
performance leadership coach andthe creator of the winning your
way framework. Welcome to thechampions of risk podcast, where
I feature business leaders andhigh performance principals
through shared stories oftriumphs and tough calls. So
you're better equipped tonavigate ongoing uncertainty,
take inspired action, and definewhat it means to be winning your
(00:24):
way in business and in life.
This episode is for the revenuegenerators, the ones who put it
all on the line in the name ofproviding solutions for clients
and closing business. Now,before you tried to tell me that
you're not a salesperson, let mejust ask you, have you ever had
to persuade someone to see yourpoint of view either personally
or professionally? Or have youever crafted an email where you
(00:46):
really needed someone to respondto it? And they didn't? Yeah, I
thought so. So keep listening.
My guest today is CharleneDeCesare or Charlene ignites, as
she is known on all her social.
She is a sales advisor with over30 years of building successful
sales organizations all aroundthe world. Currently, she's a
(01:09):
senior consultant and leadfacilitator for the research
based sales training company,the rain group. She's also the
author of the email cemeterywhere bad sales emails go to die
and how to resuscitate yours.
Charlene, welcome to thepodcast.
Charlene DeCesare (01:28):
Wow, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Michael Kithcart (01:31):
This is going to be a fun conversation. Oh,
yeah. And you know how it alwaysstarts, right? One sales person
meets the other salesperson andwe go, how did you get into
sales? You know, how do they do?
Charlene DeCesare (01:44):
So true?
Well, I love what you saidearlier that in some ways,
everyone is in sales. Andparticularly, you know, even as
a kid, I was pretty good to getmy way. And if you think about
what selling or sales is, it'sreally about persuasion. It's
about getting other people tosee your point of view. And
sometimes there's revenue at theend of that conversation or that
(02:05):
negotiation that doesn't have tobe that way. But actually, my
first paid sales job, I guess,the first time I ever got paid
for being in sales, I was 16. Itwas my first job ever. And I
worked in retail, and I havenever stopped. So I'm not trying
to say I'll be 54 this year. AndI've been doing some kind of
(02:27):
sales since I was 16 years old.
And I love it. I love it.
Michael Kithcart (02:33):
It's so true that I get people who just say,
Oh, no, I could never do sales.
And then you walk them throughwhat it is that they do in life
and how they get what they want.
And all that everybody on somelevel is that's why Daniel Pink
wrote the book to sell is to behuman, right, you know, along.
But when did you realize thatyou were actually good at sales?
(02:55):
Because there are those who getinto sales? And it's not for
them? How did you know you weregood?
Charlene DeCesare (03:03):
Yeah, it's interesting, because actually, I
don't think I probably was thatgood when I first started. But,
you know, I've certainly hadsome training and have had
amazing mentors. In my life. Oneof my best mentors used to
always say, to me that increasedconfidence brings increased
capacity. And so to some extent,you know, it's sort of just
(03:24):
happened because I've hadexperience and I realized that
most of the time in sales werenot like in life and death
situations. And I actually thinkthe reason why most people are
afraid of it is because they'retrying too hard. You know, they
make it bigger than it needs tobe, or they feel like they have
to be that guy who's like, whatcan I do to get you in this
(03:46):
Prius today? Right. And thereality is the best salespeople,
and I think this is true for me,too. It are the people that you
know, don't resort to being arobot or Ickes tactics. It's
more about making connectionsand having conversations. Well,
Michael Kithcart (04:06):
there you go, that that makes a big
difference. When you look backon your sales career, what would
you say? Did you have a tendencyto to work more in the service
side of sales or products?
Because that can make adifference?
Charlene DeCesare (04:20):
Yeah, so most of my career from you know, like
after high school, I guess, hasbeen in high value services,
really selling intangibles.
Although it's some mostly b2b,but some high value b2c, so
business to business or businessto consumer that said, you know,
I worked with a lot of realestate agents. I've worked with
(04:41):
people who have NetworkMarketing Product businesses,
I've worked with a lot of peoplewho have products, and a lot of
the principles can still applyas long as it's really about the
relationships that you'relooking to build. So I would say
it's it's really If I'd like catencapsulated, its relationship
based sales is really my forte.
Michael Kithcart (05:06):
And sometimes people will, because I've led
sales teams, I've been asalesperson, and I just was
thinking before we met, like,what is that consistent theme?
Like, what, where do people tendto get tripped up on? And it
seems like really at thebeginning, just feeling like
they have to know the perfectthing to say that that's going
(05:29):
to magically, like, open up thisrelationship. And, and it really
isn't about one moment. And yet,there's still ways to prepare
yourself better for thatopening. And I'm curious if you
have any, you know, any thingsthat you are tips that are like,
tried and true around that?
Charlene DeCesare (05:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think, to your point, people
were worried about the perfectthing to say, and especially
like giving the pitch, you know,like, how do we especially if
they're new at something, orthey don't know a lot about
maybe the new product or theservice, or they don't feel
practiced in their elevatorspeech or whatever. And here's
the thing, I'm gonna leteveryone off the hook here. The
(06:11):
thing that will get you in thedoor is not what you say, it is
what you ask. And so if you'reever nervous about going into
any interaction, prepare greatquestions, do your homework so
that you know something aboutthem. And then really that magic
bullet, and it kind of is one isshow them, you know, them be
(06:31):
genuinely curious. Ask GreatQuestions, get them talking.
Because actually, when they'retalking, you're winning. Right?
And so that's the goal. So takethe pressure off.
Michael Kithcart (06:42):
Yes. That you summarized it beautifully.
Charlene DeCesare (06:48):
Michael, this is why they pay me the big bucks
Okay.
Michael Kithcart (06:50):
Clearly this is why Charlene is the master
trainer.
Charlene DeCesare (06:55):
it's that and maybe my fantastic singing
voice? I'm not sure. I'm justgetting on that second one.
Michael Kithcart (07:03):
So when you were a salesperson, what would
you say? Were some of yourpersonalized traits? What made
you such a great seller? Orbecome one?
Charlene DeCesare (07:13):
Yeah, I think I'm very goal oriented, which
helps in a couple of ways. Oneis, I know what I'm trying to
achieve overall. So I have thissense of really, what am I
driving towards? And then whatare the steps I need to take to
get there? So I think there isthis sort of sense of
prioritization and work ethicthat really does help. And then
(07:36):
I think in the interactions, itis, hey, I really like people.
I, I enjoy hearing people'sstories. I am genuinely curious.
And I always go to a place oftapping into how can I help
them? And you know, what if itmeans I sell something that I
do? If I don't have somethingthat will truly help them, then
I won't and that's okay. So Ithink a lot of people their
(07:59):
biggest fears, rejection, likethey don't want to hear the word
no. To me, I sort of embracethat, because I feel like if
somebody ever says no to me, orwe, you know, it's not really a
rejection of me, it's really amutual agreement, that there's
just not a good fit. Becauseotherwise, an objection is not a
rejection. And objection mightbe their way of saying to us,
(08:20):
Chris bosses, who's the authorof the book never split the
difference? He says, Sometimesno means helped me say yes. And
if I feel like the right answerfor them is yes, I'm going to
help them get there. And I willbe a little bit professionally
assertive about helping them getthere. Right. So yeah,
Michael Kithcart (08:39):
how often though, have you found that
people just won't even make theask?
Charlene DeCesare (08:46):
Yeah, I mean, that. I mean, it's that's the
old adage, right? If you don'task for the sale, you won't get
it. Right. Usually, you know, wesee this even, you know, I do a
lot of sales training, I seethis even in the emails that I
review, and people don't evenask for a meeting, let alone the
sale. They'll say things like,you know, just let me know if
you're interested. And I'm like,I'm so sorry, honey, but they
(09:09):
will never let you know. Justlike if anytime you have any
messages as let me know. Youknow, usually it's pretty good
chance they won't. But yeah, youknow, I think embracing a sense
of confidence to help. It's noteven an ask, it's really like an
offer, right? It's saying, look,here's why it makes sense for
you. Here's why I think you knowhow I'm going to connect to the
(09:32):
value for you the transformationI can create. And let's go you
know, it's just like when youwant to start, you know, and
it's, it's not pushing anyoneinto something it is really
pulling them through based ontheir own Express needs and
goals and challenges and all ofthat.
Michael Kithcart (09:52):
Yeah, so one of the that pull through I love
that phrase because what I oftenwill share with people is Like,
if you are asking questions inthe right order, right, and
you're taking them through ajourney, and based off of things
that they say you're providingsome information that gives them
more of an indicator, you'regetting the buy in throughout
(10:15):
that it is just that, lets go atthe end, because you've been
bringing them along the wholethrough the whole journey
process. But I like that, that Ican that visual that you have
with the pull through on it,because that just makes it a
better experience for everyonearound I mean, if it's painful
for the salesperson think howpainful it is for the
Charlene DeCesare (10:37):
person.
You're not kidding. But it'strue. Because so often when I
hear when people think of sales,like oh, I don't want to be
pushy, it's like, well, I don'twant to be pushy, either. I
don't want to be annoying. It'slike, I don't know, are you an
annoying person? Like, you know,it's it's not the it's not the
sales conversation that makesyou know, is not going to
inherently make you push, you'reannoying unless you're being
pushy and annoying. But to yourpoint is sort of leading, I'd
(10:59):
say leading the witness, youknow, leading them through their
own story of transformation ortheir own story of solving a
problem or achieving a goal. Andat the end of it, it's like,
okay, well, it sounds likethere's a really great fit here
based on you saying this, thisand this, and us being able to
work together to do this, thisand this. So what's the right
(11:20):
next step? Do you feel ready tosign a contract? Or do you feel
ready to get your boss involved?
Or do you feel ready, tell mewhat feels right to you. And
that's a way that I typicallywill, quote unquote, close the
deal without ever feeling likeI'm being pushy, or salesy, you
(11:40):
know, like, that goes right towhat's the right next step. And
if you think about it in termsof one step at a time, if the
right next step is to anexchange of, you know, money or
exchange of contract, orwhatever it is, then say, does
that feel right? Like the rightnext step? If it's not the right
next step, they'll tell you whatis and say, Okay, great. Well,
let's do that. You know, unless,you know, there's some objection
(12:04):
inherent to that, that you needto overcome. So,
Michael Kithcart (12:08):
yeah, at a time like that, what are you
ready for next that that whole?
Charlene DeCesare (12:14):
Well, and actually, the language choice,
there actually is very key, andit's what feels like the right
next step, or what feels rightto you. And the reason why I'll
always defer to even in aconversation, does that feel
right to what feels right toyou, is because I'm purposely
and proactively always tappinginto the emotional decision
maker, because that's actuallywhere the decision happens. So
(12:36):
I'm reminding them, it's abouthow they feel. And I'm always
working throughout the salescycle, to make them feel a
certain way. Because we knowbased on science, science, that
decisions happen in thesubconscious 95% of decision
making happens in thesubconscious. And so people
decide or buy based on emotion,they justify with facts and
(12:59):
logic. So any opportunity I canto tap into the emotional
center, whether it's mirroringtheir emotions, you know,
echoing their emotions back tothem speaking to the emotional
impact, or saying somethinglike, does that feel right to
you? Or what feels right to you?
very intentional word choice.
Michael Kithcart (13:18):
Great clarification. Case studies, two
are very popular. And becausewhen people have success, those
around them want to know, like,how did you do it worked? And
I'm curious from the standpointof because it is a podcast of
champions of risk. What's a bigrisk that you have taken with a
(13:42):
client, either because of theclient situation, or as part of
a sale, the sales process?
Charlene DeCesare (13:48):
Yeah, you know, I think what feels like a
big risk to a lot of people inthe sales cycle is when they
have to, well, one just reachingout to a stranger. I mean, it's,
there's something sort of scaryabout that, you know, and then
also, sort of related to that,whether it's at the beginning of
a conversation, or at some pointduring the sales cycle, is
really challenging the buyerpoint of view, and trying to
(14:12):
change their mindset aroundsomething. It can feel like a
big risk because sometimes whenyou challenge someone, you know,
there's a risk, you're gonnapush them so far outside their
comfort zone, that they go intothe fear zone or the paralysis
zone, and then you know, andthen you've lost them and you do
kind of cross that kind ofboundary, it could also be a
risk to maybe tell someone whythere's a sense of urgency. You
(14:35):
know, when they say like, oh,you know, get back to me in two
months, I have too much goingon, I'm too busy, or I don't
have the money, and yougenuinely believe that what you
have to offer them will maketheir life less stressful. Take
things out there, play, savethem money or save them time.
You know, it's like you have toappreciate where they're coming
from, and also challenge them tosay yes and right. So that's the
(14:59):
best way to Yes, and this is whythis is important to do now,
because based on what you toldme about this, this, and this,
if you don't do this now, in thetwo or three months, if I wait
to get back to you, you're goingto be twice as busy and you have
a lot less money, and you'll bea lot more scared or a lot more
stressed. So time is of theessence. What else is holding
(15:23):
you back right now? You know,and sort of challenging from
that sense of urgency? Yeah, butwe're so trained to like the
customer's always right. And oneof the reasons why think about
like Steve Jobs, who was a hugerisk taker, you know, one of his
mantras was, tell the customerwhat they want, tell the
customer what they want. And sothat may feel like a risk. And
(15:44):
if you lead with the insights,you take the lead to help them
again, sort of shaped theirpoint of view and the way they
should be thinking about things,not because you want to sell
something, but because it is forthem based on what they tell you
is important to them, you know,what they're trying to overcome,
or what they're trying to solve,or achieve.
Michael Kithcart (16:04):
Right? On shifting perspective is very
powerful, right, and useful andhelpful. Like there's genuine
good that you can be offeringthe client, even just the
conversation around that. Ialways like the you know, where
the hesitancy of like, is thetiming, right? And that is just
(16:25):
like, where are you going to besix months from now? If you just
keep doing things the way thatyou're currently doing them? I
mean, you're not happy with theresults that you're getting
right now?
Charlene DeCesare (16:34):
Well, and that's a nice discovery question
that everyone should ask in thebeginning, which is, you know,
what's the impact of doingnothing? Like what happens if
you don't solve this? Whathappens if you never achieve
that goal? What happens if youdon't find a house? What happens
if you don't, you know, fix yourskin, or you don't like whatever
it is, like, literally, there'sany thing you can think of that
you would sell? There's animpact of it, whether or not
(16:56):
it's with me, or whether or notI use my solution? What happens
if you don't do anything? Whathappens if you just keep doing
what you're doing? And at theend of the day, as sellers we
are change agents, right? So ourjob is help people change
something, there are lots ofthings we could change. And
meanwhile, human beings arehardwired for hardwired first
(17:16):
homeostasis. So we're trying tocreate change, and a species
that is designed not to change.
This is what makes itchallenging, and also really
rewarding if you think about it,not as selling something and
creating a transaction, but as atransformation, to get someone
from where they are now to wherethey really want to or could be.
It's magical, magical.
Michael Kithcart (17:40):
That's great.
Well, speaking of change, youwere a salesperson and
individual contributor, and youdecided to make that sales
leadership leap. What was thatprocess like for you? Like, what
did you learn about leadingother people?
Charlene DeCesare (17:59):
Yeah, so I was a reluctant leader. So my
journey, I went from being anindividual contributor to leader
to starting my own businesses tothen now I'm back in corporate
again, actually, the story, theway that it happened was, if we
have time, when I was a kid, mydad told me the story about how
he left MIT, he was one of thefirst of his generation to get a
(18:20):
college scholarship, but hecouldn't deal with being in
school. So he left went to acompany where he had, he really
thought he could do a job wellwasn't qualified, wasn't
qualified from an educationalstandpoint. So he said, I'll
make a deal with you. Let mework for free for six months.
And if you like me, then you'llhire me as if like, I have the
(18:41):
degree and all the credentials,right? So I'd end up working
hand in hand to becoming a veryworld renowned electrical
engineer, and mentor and all ofthat. So I took a page out of
his book, when I was anindividual contributor, I had an
idea for a sort of strategicaccounts kind of model at the
company I was working with, Ioriginally spoke to them about
it, their headquarters was inConnecticut, I live in New
(19:03):
Hampshire. And so they were theysaying, you know, we really need
somebody who's gonna be in thecorporate office, if we're going
to trust you with like a teamand resources and all of that.
So I said, Well, I will make adeal with you, I will work for
free. I said three months,because I'm way cheaper than my
dad and I have a lot more bills.
But I said, I will work for freefor three months. And at the end
of the three months, if I don'tgrow the business 20% Then I
(19:24):
will go stay in New Hampshire,I'll be an individual
contributor. We'll forget weever had this conversation. And
then I also worked on acompensation plan that if I did
achieve that 20% growth yearover year growth, that I would
essentially be elevated to aleadership position and get
everything I wanted. So the TLDRis that it all worked out. I
(19:48):
grew the business 46% And endedup running a global team in five
countries 15 people, and we grewthat business from at When I
started with that book abusiness was under $2 million.
In three years, it was $38million. So it ended up being a
pretty good move,
Michael Kithcart (20:08):
I would say, I would say, and so what did you
love about that? process? Andbecause it's very different, and
we, you know, we know that notevery salesperson is meant to be
a sales leader, and all of that,but you there was something
about that opportunity thatpropelled you or, you know, made
(20:29):
you actually want to provide anoffer and take a risk on on
whether or not you're going tobe able to achieve the results.
So why did you want to leadpeople?
Charlene DeCesare (20:40):
Yeah, I mean, there's a great saying by Howard
Thurman, which goes along thelines of don't ask what the
world needs, ask what makes youcome alive and go do that,
because the world needs morepeople who have come alive. And
so I realized what makes me comealive is growing things. It's
been true of growing mychildren, it's true, bro, my
kittens to cats drive me crazy.
Like cats and kittens, actually,both, but. But certainly, you
(21:04):
know, growing businesses andgrowing people is at the heart
of everything I love to do. Soas a sales leader, I really
looked at that as an opportunityto develop people and to coach
and mentor. And it's where Irealized that I actually don't
like being a manager in to thisday, it's the reason why I don't
(21:24):
have direct reports. And one ofthe reasons why I decided to
shift my business and take aredifferent kinds of risk in my
business, it's, you know, Ibecause to me, it's like you
manage tasks, and you coach andlead people, and I want to work
with the people and help thepeople grow. So that's really
what makes it the mostrewarding. And I would say every
risk I've ever taken in my lifehas been about seeking that
(21:48):
opportunity to get that, thatalive feeling of growing
something out of almost nothing.
You know, whether, you know,I've led startup businesses
where we went from zero to $10million, in three years three,
writing my book, you know, was ablank page and the idea of
growing an idea, creatingsomething that is what makes me
(22:10):
come alive.
Michael Kithcart (22:11):
And that makes like, so Gee, why did you become
a sales trainer, because youcould actually work with the
people the whole time, right?
Charlene DeCesare (22:20):
As a sales trainer now. So in January, I
had my own business for nineyears as a trade, like a
freelance trainer, essentially,in a coach and speaker and all
of that. But in January, I tookthis full time role, because I
get to do all the fun stuff,without having to worry about,
you know, marketing, orbookkeeping, or the IRS or like
(22:45):
anything that I don't want todeal with, you know, it's really
the best of all worlds to, I getto show up every day and teach
people and coach people, and,you know, seek new ideas. And
also ran group is a growingbusiness too. So I do get to be
part of that growth, you know,watching a team grow getting to
be part of all the fun that goesalong with that.
Michael Kithcart (23:07):
What do you see are some shifting trends, it
with sales, since the rain groupis also a research based company
too. Right? So what's evolving?
Charlene DeCesare (23:20):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is a couple of
big trends. One, of course, isvirtual, virtual selling is here
to stay. There's a lot ofresearch behind that. And a lot
of businesses, I think you hadmentioned pharmaceutical sales.
You know, there's a lot ofbusinesses where people are
really used to being in thefield and being face to face.
(23:40):
And we're sort of just waitingfor that to come back. And it is
back to a large extent in manyindustries. And also what buyers
are telling us that the majorityprefer a virtual environment
over the in person sales visit.
And so that might mean moreFaceTiming, emailing zoom calls,
staying connected with insightsand ideas over email or
(24:02):
LinkedIn. And then yeah, face toface, here and there. But
there's a lot of efficienciesthat have been gained in the
virtual selling environment. Sothat's big. And then the second
is really this alignment toconsultative selling, and having
better conversations whereyou're truly adding value to the
conversation, not just trying tosell a solution. And then
(24:24):
finally, the other big trend isthat, especially for companies
that it's not really about somuch about the solution or the
company, it's really down to theindividual seller, in terms of
how they build value in theirapproach and in the relationship
that they build. So in a way alot of the stuff that I was
(24:45):
doing 20 years ago, which again,I wasn't even that great at it
back then. But now that is theway you know that you'll be more
the most successful is to be aconversationalist to care about
people be genuinely curious. andlet the selling come, you know
as it comes and be diligentabout moving everything forward
one step at a time, but goingone step at a time, and then
(25:08):
knowing when to have theconfidence to wrap it up and get
the sale done. Because it can'tdrag on forever. But if you
really create the rightmomentum, that will naturally
happen. But that consultativeapproach, even in what could be
a commodity business, is reallythe path of the future right
now.
Michael Kithcart (25:30):
That's great.
Are you finding that companiesare starting to invest more in
preparing their sales teams forsuccess?
Charlene DeCesare (25:40):
I think the good ones are, you know, I
think, you know, it's, there'san investment hopefully, in
people because of the talentshortage that we see right now.
And the quote unquote, war ontalent right? Now, the great
resignation, whenever a newsarticle you're reading, the
companies are realizing thatthese, it's always been true, it
just now, it's really worthinvesting in keeping people more
(26:04):
than ever. And so one of theways you do that is to help
teach them new skills also helpthem feel like they do have some
professional development, andeven whether they're great, and
it's, you know, keeping themengaged, or maybe some people
have potential and just needthat little bit of help to get
them to be where they arecapable of being
Michael Kithcart (26:24):
communication is a is a big piece of that
building the rapport, therelationship, and really having
a mutual exchange. It's a bigpart of business. And there's
lots of room for error, right?
You think I can say frompersonal experience, I've done
it, I've witnessed it. And also,when it's been beautiful, right?
(26:49):
You know, and it has all been inalignment. But you wrote a book
specifically about writingeffective emails, because that
in particular feels like a placewhere it's so easy for
communication to break down. Sowhat inspired you to actually
write a whole book
Charlene DeCesare (27:07):
about it? So actually, I mean, I've been
blogging for about 10 years. Ilove to write in my, in my DNA,
you know? So I had a blog whereI was just writing kind of
funny, and I think I'mhilarious, I don't know, but
kind of funny, little snippets,you know, on emails I actually
(27:28):
received, and I would just lookat these emails like, hey, you
know, like, what is happening?
So I would talk about, like, whythe email was so bad, and then
like, what they could have doneinstead. And the name of it was,
or the title was, like, this iswhere sales emails come to die,
right? So they became the emailcemetery. Fun fact, it's not the
email graveyard, because agraveyard is associated with a
(27:51):
church. Cemetery is agnostic. Soif anybody's wondering why I
didn't name it, the emailgraveyard that isn't
denominational. But yeah, so itjust was a blog that I had. And
then I met a publisher who, youknow, we were talking and I
said, I've always wanted topublish a book, I have like
(28:12):
three mostly written books inthe background that have never
been published. And somehowthis, he saw this idea, it's
like this, you should do this.
This is so marketable,particularly since my goal at
the time was to get morespeaking gigs, actually. And it
was true. Once I got the bookdone, I've done a lot of
speaking on this topic, andpeople will have a good time
(28:35):
with it. It's a encapsulated,essentially nine personas of
what not to do, like theegomaniac, you know that, making
it all about us, which is thenumber one mistake that people
make the apologize or the cornycornball, the order taker and so
forth.
Michael Kithcart (28:57):
Okay, what should emails be about and what
should they not?
Charlene DeCesare (29:02):
So I'm going to make to make this this is
actually a very easy answer.
It's not about you, if you'rethe seller, it's about your it's
about your buyer about yourprospect, especially the way you
open the email, you know, itreally has to have that hook
that trigger event, that thingyou know about them or that
person you know, in common, youknow, get their attention and
(29:23):
regroup kind of the valueproposition three legged stool
is you have to resonate firstand then differentiate and then
substantiate, and that resonancecomes from talking about the
other person is speaking tothem, not about yourself. So
that is absolutely the key toand actually to all great sales
(29:45):
conversations as well. It's notabout you. Yes.
Michael Kithcart (29:53):
And so help me understand. Because I feel like
I get a lot of you emails thatare they started along the lines
of I know you're so busy. AndI'm just checking in. I'm just
checking back on that email thatI sent you before. And again,
(30:15):
these are just like, clearlythey know nothing. Yeah, they're
just mass. But what is that?
Why? Where did that come from?
And how can we destroy it?
Charlene DeCesare (30:27):
Yeah. So and actually, you know what, out of
the all the things that you'vethe examples you just had, you
know, something that's like, nodoubt, you're very busy, you
know, writing your charitableorganization that does that. I'm
especially impressed by how youso if they start with talking
about you, honestly, like, I'mnot mad about that, if it starts
with my biggest pet peeve. AndI've gotten a lot of grief about
(30:49):
this on my tick tock videos,which by the way at Charlene
ignites on tick tock is whenpeople start their emails with
Hi, my name is and I just wantedto say, Okay, first of all, take
a deep breath, very riled up.
First of all, your name isalready two places on the email,
(31:10):
you don't need to tell me yourname. Second of all, whenever
somebody says, I just wanted tothe eye and anytime an email
starts with the letter I, andagain, to be helpful here, easy,
best way to change all of youremails is to start editing out
those ego words. I, me my Iwanted to I would love to,
(31:34):
because the AI says, Hey, thisis about me right now. Hello,
I'm over here, I want to sellyou something, you know, and
you're sort of counting onsomebody else to care. And then
the just is what we call akneecap word in jest is, you
know, as I say that your yourmessage will betray your
mindset. Just as a mindset tellthat says, I'm not confident
(31:56):
about this. I feel bad that I'mreaching out to you right now.
I'm going to shrink back just alittle bit, because I know this
is not going to go well.
Michael Kithcart (32:08):
So I'm so busted on that one.
Charlene DeCesare (32:10):
Oh, yeah.
Yes. Just like that. So what Iwant everybody when you have
rerigged. So I like to givethese tips. So get rid of the
word I you know, or make itabout them. How can you
reposition it, so it's aboutthem. And every time you go to
write the word just I want youto imagine that you're about to
get slapped in the face. Becauselike the just word, that word
(32:30):
justice, like your rights, likeshrinking back, right, I know
this is audio, but hopefully youget the like feeling of like,
like, oh, no, like, don't get mejust
Michael Kithcart (32:40):
you saying that just signals that you're
not confident pisses me off. Iam never using that
Charlene DeCesare (32:50):
word hashtag Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. And then the
other. The other thing is,again, it's it's about you know,
being so thoughtful The thingabout emails is we get way too
many of them. So in every word,every bit of attention you're
trying to get from the yourrecipient is so precious and
valuable. So I say this out oflove, because I don't want
(33:11):
people to waste their words. Andso if they're saying hi, I just
And then like I just wanted tosay okay, we I know you want it
to because you're doing it. So,you know, there's a lot of that,
like, let me tell you the innerworkings and motivations of this
behind the scenes of the email.
And again, that comes from aplace of insecurity. And it
comes from advisors, not feelingthat you have enough value, or
(33:34):
not internalize or articulatingyour value that just say what it
is, you know, so instead of Ijust wanted to invite you to
this webinar, I just wanted tosee if you might be interested
in my podcast, it's like, hey,you know, as a, as a growing
entrepreneur, I noticed that youposted your great results from
last year, you are likely tryingto reach a wider audience, or
(33:58):
you might find value in reachinga wider audience, would you
consider being on my podcast?
That's it? Right? So most of theediting that I do with emails,
which to be clear, I'm notasking for anybody to hire me to
edit their emails. Because Iwill sometimes get a lot of, can
I hire you to edit all myemails? You know, in the
(34:19):
coaching process, and when Ihelp people, most of the time,
we're just deleting words, we'redeleting words they don't need
and for example, when I tellpeople don't open with my name
is and they say, Well, whatshould I say instead? I say
nothing. Just don't read it andjust start you know. So it
(34:40):
really is about being judiciousand intentional with with those
words,
Michael Kithcart (34:45):
and I want to go back to what you said before
when I said how can we get ridof these just blanket emails
that say things that I alwaysfind are offensive. And you said
you don't mind when they saySurely you're busy, you know
running your organization XYZ,blah, blah, blah. The
distinction I realized out ofthe way you said it is that and
(35:08):
what triggers me is that there'snothing that states at all that
they know one thing about who Iam or what I do,
Charlene DeCesare (35:19):
right? You that's the absolute critical
piece is show them, you knowthem. So for example, I don't
know about you, but I get threeemails a day telling me how
impressive my profile is. Andevery now and then I get a
little snarky, and I write backand I'm like, so what do you
think is impressive? Tell memore, you know, because I know,
they haven't even looked at myprofile. They just, you know,
(35:40):
you sent it to all the girls. Soyeah, so it's if you find
something impressive aboutsomeone say, you know, I'm so
impressed by the work you'redoing with XYZ organization, you
know, the cat foster society, itspeaks to me, because I also
foster cats. Um, you know, andthen I'm curious. So here's one
(36:00):
eye phrase that I think isamazing. And actually science
agrees is I'm curious. I'mcurious. So open with something
about them, show them you knowthem, and then be genuinely
curious and ask an intelligentquestion that is about really
wanting to understand thembetter. And, and again, honors
(36:21):
the stage of the conversationyou're at. So for example, if
you have something to sell to, Iget, I just got one today for,
for marketing, somebody,somebody wants to offer me
marketing services to help meget more clients. Maybe the
first question is, I'm curious,are you in? Are you looking for
more clients? Not not? I'mcurious. What are you looking
(36:44):
for? When you're hiring amarketing agency? It's like,
Well, I'm not hiring a marketingagency, because I have a full
time job. I'm not looking for myclients, you know, but just
think about, like, what is thefirst question you need to ask?
What's that entry in the door,and what could you create as a
point of conversation that willresonate with them, and save the
(37:04):
selling for later, because itmay not be a good fit for you
either. And that's the otherpiece of this. Sometimes we get
ourselves so riled up abouttrying to be the perfect person
for someone else, that we forgetthat they have to be right for
us, as well. I tell my kids thisall the time, I'm like, if you
ever want to find the bestpartner, make sure that you find
(37:25):
that, you know, you find theright person for you, and that
you're also the right person forthem, you have to have both
sides, there'll be people thatare gonna love you that think
you're the best, you're notgonna be that into them, you're
under no obligation to embark ina relationship with them. But
some people get so overwhelmedby this idea of trying to win
others over that they forgetthat and that it's a mutually,
(37:47):
you know, beneficialrelationship that you're trying
to get to. And sometimes justhaving that attitude, you'll
show up in the way that youprospect, for example, in a much
better light. So for example, onan email, a call to action,
instead of saying, let's meet,and then I can tell you, like
how I can help you or we couldtalk about how we might partner
(38:08):
together. Maybe just say, youknow, let's meet and, you know,
we'll talk about this, we'lltalk about that, you know, talk
about you share some stuff aboutme, and then we'll mutually
decide on next steps, if any.
That's it. It's my one of myfavorite closing lines, by the
way, mutually decide on nextsteps, if any, take the pressure
off. See what happens mutuallysays has to be good for me too.
(38:29):
And that usually works. Yes. Oh,
Michael Kithcart (38:35):
great tips.
Charlene DeCesare (38:36):
You tell I get excited about this. I go on,
and I know you're passionateabout it. Excuse me, we only
have 30 seconds.
Michael Kithcart (38:44):
No, it's fine.
What I appreciate is that you'regiving really practical things
anybody could be listening rightnow. And you just helped improve
all have our email game. Sothank you for for that. And you
also created sales affirmationcards, I want to hear about
this, like, what makes themdifferent sales affirmation
(39:05):
cards?
Charlene DeCesare (39:08):
Well, it's really I think the thing that
I've sort of, maybe battled withand then embraced in my career
is trying to reconcile thisambition, this financial
ambition and this quest toreally achieve a level of
prosperity financially and toprovide for my family and
myself. And, you know, justbased on the way I was brought
(39:29):
up and whatnot, you know,there's definitely room to
vilify money and to think ofsales as a bad thing and all of
that, so I've embraced, like,I'm going to do certain things
that sales to make money. Andalso, I want to embrace that
sort of spiritual side of me orthat side of me that does
believe that the best is yet tocome that the universe is
(39:49):
working on my behalf. So longanswer short, it's sorted to
balance the sales training sidewith what my husband would call
the woowoo side. Oh, yeah. Thewoowoo Oh, yeah, but you know
what the reality is, it all doeswork together. And if you have
anyone, you know, in the worldof professional development that
studies, millionaire mindset andwhatnot, it is very much a
(40:12):
mental game and being able toaccept, for example, that when
you say, you know, abundance ismy natural state of being, or
I'm attracting, you know, theperfect clients, to be able to
believe it and not feel guiltyabout it, you know, and to feel
that that's something that youknow, you want and deserve and
can have and will have. And sothe idea behind the cars was
(40:36):
just to give people like theseone statement, things that they
could say, I'm a big fan ofaffirmations and sort of daily
brain programming aroundcreating what I want in my life.
I mean, this is even beforelike, the secret or law of
attraction, but I guess it'skind of in that vein, the way I
describe the sales successaffirmation cards is, it's the
(40:57):
intersection betweenaffirmation, and action. So you
might have like, one of thecards that I have in front of me
says, I lead conversations withcuriosity and caring, like I
believe, so I would just, Imight just pick that card in my
seven to lead my conversationswith curiosity and caring. And
now throughout my days, I'mhaving conversations and remind
(41:18):
me to ask more questions, totake the lead, to have love in
my heart, you know, so it kindof reminds me of that. There's
also one that says all of myactions support my dreams, you
know, so it's like, okay, like,I can dream and want things and
take action. There's another onethat's, you know, I wanted I
mentioned before, abundance ismy natural state of being I
(41:41):
accept it now. Asking forbusiness and closing deals comes
easily to me. Yes. And it's justsort of repeating these things
to yourself. So some of themgenuinely might be a tip like,
Oh, I didn't know I supposed todo that. Like I always get the
next meeting while I'm meeting.
That is my soapbox. That is mysales soapbox. If and this is
true for dating, for any time,teenagers, if you ever want to
(42:02):
see them again, while you havethem in front of in front of
you, you secure the next timethey're going to be in front of
you. Right? Right. So that'ssort of the idea behind the
cards is to give peoplepotentially a daily, like they
do a daily draw, I actually havea blog with like 15 ways to use
them. Great in meetings to sortof talk about best practices or
(42:24):
blockers, you can use it in aone to one meeting, you know,
what might be holding you back?
Do you believe this? Do you notbelieve it? Are you doing this
not doing it? So kind of like aconversation starter? Either
maybe with yourself? Or with ateam or with an officer? Yeah,
whatever. Yeah, it works.
Michael Kithcart (42:43):
Now I can see lots of uses for that. You're
active on social. In thebeginning, I said that you're
known as Charlene ignites. Sohow can people find you? What
are some of the different waysbecause you have so much to
offer? You said blogs, you havecards? Do you have books? Like
come on Charlene, how can we?
How can we keep learning fromyou?
Charlene DeCesare (43:03):
Well, I will say if there are people that are
in their early phases of likebuilding their brand, taking
that risk of putting themselvesout there, the best advice,
maybe not the very best, butlike very good advice that I got
was to come up with my brandthat I could have is my URL for
my website, and my hashtag forevery social media platform. And
(43:26):
then if you Google it, youthere's different various sites
where you can search to see ifsomething's available. So I
tried lots of combinations. Youknow, my tagline when I started
was an Inspire igniteilluminate. So I tried different
combinations Charlene ignites,was free on every social media
platform, and the URL. So thatbecame my sort of moniker I
(43:50):
guess. So as a result, I'm veryeasy to find I'm the only
Charleen ignites on the internetbecause I own it lately. I will
say I'm the most active on TikTok and LinkedIn, I hate to
disappoint anybody, I don'tdance. I don't Wagle I don't do
any of like the what peopleprobably think of tick tock as I
do sales tips, sometimes catvideos, and then also LinkedIn.
(44:13):
I'll share some things onLinkedIn. I really enjoy
connecting with people onLinkedIn. I welcome anyone to
send me a LinkedIn connectionrequest I always accept unless
you know it's like a fake personor something. Bill Gates has
tried to friend me like seventimes, and I'm pretty sure it's
not him. And yeah, I don't dotoo much Facebook these days,
(44:35):
because my business goals havechanged. Sometimes I go on
Twitter. If anybody wants toexchange Wordle results. I'm
happy to do that. So yeah, butthat's great. Well, thankfully
LinkedIn I'm gonna say if I hadto pick one place people want to
kind of find me LinkedIn wouldbe it. And it's the LinkedIn URL
slash Charlene ignites.
Michael Kithcart (44:55):
Okay. I love that and I can't leave without
asking you. What are you Achampion of
Charlene DeCesare (45:00):
oh, I'm a champion of curiosity. I'm a
champion. Just be curious, beinterested in other people,
instead of trying to beinteresting. How's that?
Michael Kithcart (45:11):
Yes, that's that's a great way to end. So
thank you so much, Charlene.
I've learned a lot today. And Iknow our listeners will too. So
appreciate you being a guest. Mypleasure, thank you so much.
Hey, before you go, I want toshare something with you that is
really kind of near and dear tomy heart. It is winning your way
(45:34):
for senior leaders. Now. This issomething that's been a like a
longtime vision dream for me andI am putting it into motion it
is starting in May. What it is,is, it's for women who are in
mid to upper level managementspecifically, these are women
who have been leading teams foryears and are either not getting
(45:57):
any professional development orwhat's being offered doesn't
match the level of leader thatthey want to be. They're often
sandwiched between the C suitewho gets executive leadership
support. And frontline managerswho get first time manager
cohort training. These are busysenior management, women, and
(46:19):
they have different challenges,needs and career goals. And
winning your way for seniorleaders provides that advanced
leadership developmentexperience that they've been
looking for. So you might justbe that person. If you are a
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(46:43):
W kithcart.com. There's anapplication process. It's for 12
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Because this is creatingleadership transformation from
(47:04):
the inside out. Person monthlyas a peer group, you have one on
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Again, it's limited to 12 seniorleaders committed to reaching a
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studied kithcart.com
Hello, I'm Michael W Kithcart, high
performance leadership coach andthe creator of the winning your
way framework. Welcome to thechampions of risk podcast, where
I feature business leaders andhigh performance principals
through shared stories oftriumphs and tough calls. So
you're better equipped tonavigate ongoing uncertainty,
take inspired action, and definewhat it means to be winning your
(00:24):
way in business and in life.
This episode is for the revenuegenerators, the ones who put it
all on the line in the name ofproviding solutions for clients
and closing business. Now,before you tried to tell me that
you're not a salesperson, let mejust ask you, have you ever had
to persuade someone to see yourpoint of view either personally
or professionally? Or have youever crafted an email where you
(00:46):
really needed someone to respondto it? And they didn't? Yeah, I
thought so. So keep listening.
My guest today is CharleneDeCesare or Charlene ignites, as
she is known on all her social.
She is a sales advisor with over30 years of building successful
sales organizations all aroundthe world. Currently, she's a
(01:09):
senior consultant and leadfacilitator for the research
based sales training company,the rain group. She's also the
author of the email cemeterywhere bad sales emails go to die
and how to resuscitate yours.
Charlene, welcome to thepodcast.
Charlene DeCesare (01:28):
Wow, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Michael Kithcart (01:31):
This is going to be a fun conversation. Oh,
yeah. And you know how it alwaysstarts, right? One sales person
meets the other salesperson andwe go, how did you get into
sales? You know, how do they do?
Charlene DeCesare (01:44):
So true?
Well, I love what you saidearlier that in some ways,
everyone is in sales. Andparticularly, you know, even as
a kid, I was pretty good to getmy way. And if you think about
what selling or sales is, it'sreally about persuasion. It's
about getting other people tosee your point of view. And
sometimes there's revenue at theend of that conversation or that
(02:05):
negotiation that doesn't have tobe that way. But actually, my
first paid sales job, I guess,the first time I ever got paid
for being in sales, I was 16. Itwas my first job ever. And I
worked in retail, and I havenever stopped. So I'm not trying
to say I'll be 54 this year. AndI've been doing some kind of
(02:27):
sales since I was 16 years old.
And I love it. I love it.
Michael Kithcart (02:33):
It's so true that I get people who just say,
Oh, no, I could never do sales.
And then you walk them throughwhat it is that they do in life
and how they get what they want.
And all that everybody on somelevel is that's why Daniel Pink
wrote the book to sell is to behuman, right, you know, along.
But when did you realize thatyou were actually good at sales?
(02:55):
Because there are those who getinto sales? And it's not for
them? How did you know you weregood?
Charlene DeCesare (03:03):
Yeah, it's interesting, because actually, I
don't think I probably was thatgood when I first started. But,
you know, I've certainly hadsome training and have had
amazing mentors. In my life. Oneof my best mentors used to
always say, to me that increasedconfidence brings increased
capacity. And so to some extent,you know, it's sort of just
(03:24):
happened because I've hadexperience and I realized that
most of the time in sales werenot like in life and death
situations. And I actually thinkthe reason why most people are
afraid of it is because they'retrying too hard. You know, they
make it bigger than it needs tobe, or they feel like they have
to be that guy who's like, whatcan I do to get you in this
(03:46):
Prius today? Right. And thereality is the best salespeople,
and I think this is true for me,too. It are the people that you
know, don't resort to being arobot or Ickes tactics. It's
more about making connectionsand having conversations. Well,
Michael Kithcart (04:06):
there you go, that that makes a big
difference. When you look backon your sales career, what would
you say? Did you have a tendencyto to work more in the service
side of sales or products?
Because that can make adifference?
Charlene DeCesare (04:20):
Yeah, so most of my career from you know, like
after high school, I guess, hasbeen in high value services,
really selling intangibles.
Although it's some mostly b2b,but some high value b2c, so
business to business or businessto consumer that said, you know,
I worked with a lot of realestate agents. I've worked with
(04:41):
people who have NetworkMarketing Product businesses,
I've worked with a lot of peoplewho have products, and a lot of
the principles can still applyas long as it's really about the
relationships that you'relooking to build. So I would say
it's it's really If I'd like catencapsulated, its relationship
based sales is really my forte.
Michael Kithcart (05:06):
And sometimes people will, because I've led
sales teams, I've been asalesperson, and I just was
thinking before we met, like,what is that consistent theme?
Like, what, where do people tendto get tripped up on? And it
seems like really at thebeginning, just feeling like
they have to know the perfectthing to say that that's going
(05:29):
to magically, like, open up thisrelationship. And, and it really
isn't about one moment. And yet,there's still ways to prepare
yourself better for thatopening. And I'm curious if you
have any, you know, any thingsthat you are tips that are like,
tried and true around that?
Charlene DeCesare (05:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think, to your point, people
were worried about the perfectthing to say, and especially
like giving the pitch, you know,like, how do we especially if
they're new at something, orthey don't know a lot about
maybe the new product or theservice, or they don't feel
practiced in their elevatorspeech or whatever. And here's
the thing, I'm gonna leteveryone off the hook here. The
(06:11):
thing that will get you in thedoor is not what you say, it is
what you ask. And so if you'reever nervous about going into
any interaction, prepare greatquestions, do your homework so
that you know something aboutthem. And then really that magic
bullet, and it kind of is one isshow them, you know, them be
(06:31):
genuinely curious. Ask GreatQuestions, get them talking.
Because actually, when they'retalking, you're winning. Right?
And so that's the goal. So takethe pressure off.
Michael Kithcart (06:42):
Yes. That you summarized it beautifully.
Charlene DeCesare (06:48):
Michael, this is why they pay me the big bucks
Okay.
Michael Kithcart (06:50):
Clearly this is why Charlene is the master
trainer.
Charlene DeCesare (06:55):
it's that and maybe my fantastic singing
voice? I'm not sure. I'm justgetting on that second one.
Michael Kithcart (07:03):
So when you were a salesperson, what would
you say? Were some of yourpersonalized traits? What made
you such a great seller? Orbecome one?
Charlene DeCesare (07:13):
Yeah, I think I'm very goal oriented, which
helps in a couple of ways. Oneis, I know what I'm trying to
achieve overall. So I have thissense of really, what am I
driving towards? And then whatare the steps I need to take to
get there? So I think there isthis sort of sense of
prioritization and work ethicthat really does help. And then
(07:36):
I think in the interactions, itis, hey, I really like people.
I, I enjoy hearing people'sstories. I am genuinely curious.
And I always go to a place oftapping into how can I help
them? And you know, what if itmeans I sell something that I
do? If I don't have somethingthat will truly help them, then
I won't and that's okay. So Ithink a lot of people their
(07:59):
biggest fears, rejection, likethey don't want to hear the word
no. To me, I sort of embracethat, because I feel like if
somebody ever says no to me, orwe, you know, it's not really a
rejection of me, it's really amutual agreement, that there's
just not a good fit. Becauseotherwise, an objection is not a
rejection. And objection mightbe their way of saying to us,
(08:20):
Chris bosses, who's the authorof the book never split the
difference? He says, Sometimesno means helped me say yes. And
if I feel like the right answerfor them is yes, I'm going to
help them get there. And I willbe a little bit professionally
assertive about helping them getthere. Right. So yeah,
Michael Kithcart (08:39):
how often though, have you found that
people just won't even make theask?
Charlene DeCesare (08:46):
Yeah, I mean, that. I mean, it's that's the
old adage, right? If you don'task for the sale, you won't get
it. Right. Usually, you know, wesee this even, you know, I do a
lot of sales training, I seethis even in the emails that I
review, and people don't evenask for a meeting, let alone the
sale. They'll say things like,you know, just let me know if
you're interested. And I'm like,I'm so sorry, honey, but they
(09:09):
will never let you know. Justlike if anytime you have any
messages as let me know. Youknow, usually it's pretty good
chance they won't. But yeah, youknow, I think embracing a sense
of confidence to help. It's noteven an ask, it's really like an
offer, right? It's saying, look,here's why it makes sense for
you. Here's why I think you knowhow I'm going to connect to the
(09:32):
value for you the transformationI can create. And let's go you
know, it's just like when youwant to start, you know, and
it's, it's not pushing anyoneinto something it is really
pulling them through based ontheir own Express needs and
goals and challenges and all ofthat.
Michael Kithcart (09:52):
Yeah, so one of the that pull through I love
that phrase because what I oftenwill share with people is Like,
if you are asking questions inthe right order, right, and
you're taking them through ajourney, and based off of things
that they say you're providingsome information that gives them
more of an indicator, you'regetting the buy in throughout
(10:15):
that it is just that, lets go atthe end, because you've been
bringing them along the wholethrough the whole journey
process. But I like that, that Ican that visual that you have
with the pull through on it,because that just makes it a
better experience for everyonearound I mean, if it's painful
for the salesperson think howpainful it is for the
Charlene DeCesare (10:37):
person.
You're not kidding. But it'strue. Because so often when I
hear when people think of sales,like oh, I don't want to be
pushy, it's like, well, I don'twant to be pushy, either. I
don't want to be annoying. It'slike, I don't know, are you an
annoying person? Like, you know,it's it's not the it's not the
sales conversation that makesyou know, is not going to
inherently make you push, you'reannoying unless you're being
pushy and annoying. But to yourpoint is sort of leading, I'd
(10:59):
say leading the witness, youknow, leading them through their
own story of transformation ortheir own story of solving a
problem or achieving a goal. Andat the end of it, it's like,
okay, well, it sounds likethere's a really great fit here
based on you saying this, thisand this, and us being able to
work together to do this, thisand this. So what's the right
(11:20):
next step? Do you feel ready tosign a contract? Or do you feel
ready to get your boss involved?
Or do you feel ready, tell mewhat feels right to you. And
that's a way that I typicallywill, quote unquote, close the
deal without ever feeling likeI'm being pushy, or salesy, you
(11:40):
know, like, that goes right towhat's the right next step. And
if you think about it in termsof one step at a time, if the
right next step is to anexchange of, you know, money or
exchange of contract, orwhatever it is, then say, does
that feel right? Like the rightnext step? If it's not the right
next step, they'll tell you whatis and say, Okay, great. Well,
let's do that. You know, unless,you know, there's some objection
(12:04):
inherent to that, that you needto overcome. So,
Michael Kithcart (12:08):
yeah, at a time like that, what are you
ready for next that that whole?
Charlene DeCesare (12:14):
Well, and actually, the language choice,
there actually is very key, andit's what feels like the right
next step, or what feels rightto you. And the reason why I'll
always defer to even in aconversation, does that feel
right to what feels right toyou, is because I'm purposely
and proactively always tappinginto the emotional decision
maker, because that's actuallywhere the decision happens. So
(12:36):
I'm reminding them, it's abouthow they feel. And I'm always
working throughout the salescycle, to make them feel a
certain way. Because we knowbased on science, science, that
decisions happen in thesubconscious 95% of decision
making happens in thesubconscious. And so people
decide or buy based on emotion,they justify with facts and
(12:59):
logic. So any opportunity I canto tap into the emotional
center, whether it's mirroringtheir emotions, you know,
echoing their emotions back tothem speaking to the emotional
impact, or saying somethinglike, does that feel right to
you? Or what feels right to you?
very intentional word choice.
Michael Kithcart (13:18):
Great clarification. Case studies, two
are very popular. And becausewhen people have success, those
around them want to know, like,how did you do it worked? And
I'm curious from the standpointof because it is a podcast of
champions of risk. What's a bigrisk that you have taken with a
(13:42):
client, either because of theclient situation, or as part of
a sale, the sales process?
Charlene DeCesare (13:48):
Yeah, you know, I think what feels like a
big risk to a lot of people inthe sales cycle is when they
have to, well, one just reachingout to a stranger. I mean, it's,
there's something sort of scaryabout that, you know, and then
also, sort of related to that,whether it's at the beginning of
a conversation, or at some pointduring the sales cycle, is
really challenging the buyerpoint of view, and trying to
(14:12):
change their mindset aroundsomething. It can feel like a
big risk because sometimes whenyou challenge someone, you know,
there's a risk, you're gonnapush them so far outside their
comfort zone, that they go intothe fear zone or the paralysis
zone, and then you know, andthen you've lost them and you do
kind of cross that kind ofboundary, it could also be a
risk to maybe tell someone whythere's a sense of urgency. You
(14:35):
know, when they say like, oh,you know, get back to me in two
months, I have too much goingon, I'm too busy, or I don't
have the money, and yougenuinely believe that what you
have to offer them will maketheir life less stressful. Take
things out there, play, savethem money or save them time.
You know, it's like you have toappreciate where they're coming
from, and also challenge them tosay yes and right. So that's the
(14:59):
best way to Yes, and this is whythis is important to do now,
because based on what you toldme about this, this, and this,
if you don't do this now, in thetwo or three months, if I wait
to get back to you, you're goingto be twice as busy and you have
a lot less money, and you'll bea lot more scared or a lot more
stressed. So time is of theessence. What else is holding
(15:23):
you back right now? You know,and sort of challenging from
that sense of urgency? Yeah, butwe're so trained to like the
customer's always right. And oneof the reasons why think about
like Steve Jobs, who was a hugerisk taker, you know, one of his
mantras was, tell the customerwhat they want, tell the
customer what they want. And sothat may feel like a risk. And
(15:44):
if you lead with the insights,you take the lead to help them
again, sort of shaped theirpoint of view and the way they
should be thinking about things,not because you want to sell
something, but because it is forthem based on what they tell you
is important to them, you know,what they're trying to overcome,
or what they're trying to solve,or achieve.
Michael Kithcart (16:04):
Right? On shifting perspective is very
powerful, right, and useful andhelpful. Like there's genuine
good that you can be offeringthe client, even just the
conversation around that. Ialways like the you know, where
the hesitancy of like, is thetiming, right? And that is just
(16:25):
like, where are you going to besix months from now? If you just
keep doing things the way thatyou're currently doing them? I
mean, you're not happy with theresults that you're getting
right now?
Charlene DeCesare (16:34):
Well, and that's a nice discovery question
that everyone should ask in thebeginning, which is, you know,
what's the impact of doingnothing? Like what happens if
you don't solve this? Whathappens if you never achieve
that goal? What happens if youdon't find a house? What happens
if you don't, you know, fix yourskin, or you don't like whatever
it is, like, literally, there'sany thing you can think of that
you would sell? There's animpact of it, whether or not
(16:56):
it's with me, or whether or notI use my solution? What happens
if you don't do anything? Whathappens if you just keep doing
what you're doing? And at theend of the day, as sellers we
are change agents, right? So ourjob is help people change
something, there are lots ofthings we could change. And
meanwhile, human beings arehardwired for hardwired first
(17:16):
homeostasis. So we're trying tocreate change, and a species
that is designed not to change.
This is what makes itchallenging, and also really
rewarding if you think about it,not as selling something and
creating a transaction, but as atransformation, to get someone
from where they are now to wherethey really want to or could be.
It's magical, magical.
Michael Kithcart (17:40):
That's great.
Well, speaking of change, youwere a salesperson and
individual contributor, and youdecided to make that sales
leadership leap. What was thatprocess like for you? Like, what
did you learn about leadingother people?
Charlene DeCesare (17:59):
Yeah, so I was a reluctant leader. So my
journey, I went from being anindividual contributor to leader
to starting my own businesses tothen now I'm back in corporate
again, actually, the story, theway that it happened was, if we
have time, when I was a kid, mydad told me the story about how
he left MIT, he was one of thefirst of his generation to get a
(18:20):
college scholarship, but hecouldn't deal with being in
school. So he left went to acompany where he had, he really
thought he could do a job wellwasn't qualified, wasn't
qualified from an educationalstandpoint. So he said, I'll
make a deal with you. Let mework for free for six months.
And if you like me, then you'llhire me as if like, I have the
(18:41):
degree and all the credentials,right? So I'd end up working
hand in hand to becoming a veryworld renowned electrical
engineer, and mentor and all ofthat. So I took a page out of
his book, when I was anindividual contributor, I had an
idea for a sort of strategicaccounts kind of model at the
company I was working with, Ioriginally spoke to them about
it, their headquarters was inConnecticut, I live in New
(19:03):
Hampshire. And so they were theysaying, you know, we really need
somebody who's gonna be in thecorporate office, if we're going
to trust you with like a teamand resources and all of that.
So I said, Well, I will make adeal with you, I will work for
free. I said three months,because I'm way cheaper than my
dad and I have a lot more bills.
But I said, I will work for freefor three months. And at the end
of the three months, if I don'tgrow the business 20% Then I
(19:24):
will go stay in New Hampshire,I'll be an individual
contributor. We'll forget weever had this conversation. And
then I also worked on acompensation plan that if I did
achieve that 20% growth yearover year growth, that I would
essentially be elevated to aleadership position and get
everything I wanted. So the TLDRis that it all worked out. I
(19:48):
grew the business 46% And endedup running a global team in five
countries 15 people, and we grewthat business from at When I
started with that book abusiness was under $2 million.
In three years, it was $38million. So it ended up being a
pretty good move,
Michael Kithcart (20:08):
I would say, I would say, and so what did you
love about that? process? Andbecause it's very different, and
we, you know, we know that notevery salesperson is meant to be
a sales leader, and all of that,but you there was something
about that opportunity thatpropelled you or, you know, made
(20:29):
you actually want to provide anoffer and take a risk on on
whether or not you're going tobe able to achieve the results.
So why did you want to leadpeople?
Charlene DeCesare (20:40):
Yeah, I mean, there's a great saying by Howard
Thurman, which goes along thelines of don't ask what the
world needs, ask what makes youcome alive and go do that,
because the world needs morepeople who have come alive. And
so I realized what makes me comealive is growing things. It's
been true of growing mychildren, it's true, bro, my
kittens to cats drive me crazy.
Like cats and kittens, actually,both, but. But certainly, you
(21:04):
know, growing businesses andgrowing people is at the heart
of everything I love to do. Soas a sales leader, I really
looked at that as an opportunityto develop people and to coach
and mentor. And it's where Irealized that I actually don't
like being a manager in to thisday, it's the reason why I don't
(21:24):
have direct reports. And one ofthe reasons why I decided to
shift my business and take aredifferent kinds of risk in my
business, it's, you know, Ibecause to me, it's like you
manage tasks, and you coach andlead people, and I want to work
with the people and help thepeople grow. So that's really
what makes it the mostrewarding. And I would say every
risk I've ever taken in my lifehas been about seeking that
(21:48):
opportunity to get that, thatalive feeling of growing
something out of almost nothing.
You know, whether, you know,I've led startup businesses
where we went from zero to $10million, in three years three,
writing my book, you know, was ablank page and the idea of
growing an idea, creatingsomething that is what makes me
(22:10):
come alive.
Michael Kithcart (22:11):
And that makes like, so Gee, why did you become
a sales trainer, because youcould actually work with the
people the whole time, right?
Charlene DeCesare (22:20):
As a sales trainer now. So in January, I
had my own business for nineyears as a trade, like a
freelance trainer, essentially,in a coach and speaker and all
of that. But in January, I tookthis full time role, because I
get to do all the fun stuff,without having to worry about,
you know, marketing, orbookkeeping, or the IRS or like
(22:45):
anything that I don't want todeal with, you know, it's really
the best of all worlds to, I getto show up every day and teach
people and coach people, and,you know, seek new ideas. And
also ran group is a growingbusiness too. So I do get to be
part of that growth, you know,watching a team grow getting to
be part of all the fun that goesalong with that.
Michael Kithcart (23:07):
What do you see are some shifting trends, it
with sales, since the rain groupis also a research based company
too. Right? So what's evolving?
Charlene DeCesare (23:20):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is a couple of
big trends. One, of course, isvirtual, virtual selling is here
to stay. There's a lot ofresearch behind that. And a lot
of businesses, I think you hadmentioned pharmaceutical sales.
You know, there's a lot ofbusinesses where people are
really used to being in thefield and being face to face.
(23:40):
And we're sort of just waitingfor that to come back. And it is
back to a large extent in manyindustries. And also what buyers
are telling us that the majorityprefer a virtual environment
over the in person sales visit.
And so that might mean moreFaceTiming, emailing zoom calls,
staying connected with insightsand ideas over email or
(24:02):
LinkedIn. And then yeah, face toface, here and there. But
there's a lot of efficienciesthat have been gained in the
virtual selling environment. Sothat's big. And then the second
is really this alignment toconsultative selling, and having
better conversations whereyou're truly adding value to the
conversation, not just trying tosell a solution. And then
(24:24):
finally, the other big trend isthat, especially for companies
that it's not really about somuch about the solution or the
company, it's really down to theindividual seller, in terms of
how they build value in theirapproach and in the relationship
that they build. So in a way alot of the stuff that I was
(24:45):
doing 20 years ago, which again,I wasn't even that great at it
back then. But now that is theway you know that you'll be more
the most successful is to be aconversationalist to care about
people be genuinely curious. andlet the selling come, you know
as it comes and be diligentabout moving everything forward
one step at a time, but goingone step at a time, and then
(25:08):
knowing when to have theconfidence to wrap it up and get
the sale done. Because it can'tdrag on forever. But if you
really create the rightmomentum, that will naturally
happen. But that consultativeapproach, even in what could be
a commodity business, is reallythe path of the future right
now.
Michael Kithcart (25:30):
That's great.
Are you finding that companiesare starting to invest more in
preparing their sales teams forsuccess?
Charlene DeCesare (25:40):
I think the good ones are, you know, I
think, you know, it's, there'san investment hopefully, in
people because of the talentshortage that we see right now.
And the quote unquote, war ontalent right? Now, the great
resignation, whenever a newsarticle you're reading, the
companies are realizing thatthese, it's always been true, it
just now, it's really worthinvesting in keeping people more
(26:04):
than ever. And so one of theways you do that is to help
teach them new skills also helpthem feel like they do have some
professional development, andeven whether they're great, and
it's, you know, keeping themengaged, or maybe some people
have potential and just needthat little bit of help to get
them to be where they arecapable of being
Michael Kithcart (26:24):
communication is a is a big piece of that
building the rapport, therelationship, and really having
a mutual exchange. It's a bigpart of business. And there's
lots of room for error, right?
You think I can say frompersonal experience, I've done
it, I've witnessed it. And also,when it's been beautiful, right?
(26:49):
You know, and it has all been inalignment. But you wrote a book
specifically about writingeffective emails, because that
in particular feels like a placewhere it's so easy for
communication to break down. Sowhat inspired you to actually
write a whole book
Charlene DeCesare (27:07):
about it? So actually, I mean, I've been
blogging for about 10 years. Ilove to write in my, in my DNA,
you know? So I had a blog whereI was just writing kind of
funny, and I think I'mhilarious, I don't know, but
kind of funny, little snippets,you know, on emails I actually
(27:28):
received, and I would just lookat these emails like, hey, you
know, like, what is happening?
So I would talk about, like, whythe email was so bad, and then
like, what they could have doneinstead. And the name of it was,
or the title was, like, this iswhere sales emails come to die,
right? So they became the emailcemetery. Fun fact, it's not the
email graveyard, because agraveyard is associated with a
(27:51):
church. Cemetery is agnostic. Soif anybody's wondering why I
didn't name it, the emailgraveyard that isn't
denominational. But yeah, so itjust was a blog that I had. And
then I met a publisher who, youknow, we were talking and I
said, I've always wanted topublish a book, I have like
(28:12):
three mostly written books inthe background that have never
been published. And somehowthis, he saw this idea, it's
like this, you should do this.
This is so marketable,particularly since my goal at
the time was to get morespeaking gigs, actually. And it
was true. Once I got the bookdone, I've done a lot of
speaking on this topic, andpeople will have a good time
(28:35):
with it. It's a encapsulated,essentially nine personas of
what not to do, like theegomaniac, you know that, making
it all about us, which is thenumber one mistake that people
make the apologize or the cornycornball, the order taker and so
forth.
Michael Kithcart (28:57):
Okay, what should emails be about and what
should they not?
Charlene DeCesare (29:02):
So I'm going to make to make this this is
actually a very easy answer.
It's not about you, if you'rethe seller, it's about your it's
about your buyer about yourprospect, especially the way you
open the email, you know, itreally has to have that hook
that trigger event, that thingyou know about them or that
person you know, in common, youknow, get their attention and
(29:23):
regroup kind of the valueproposition three legged stool
is you have to resonate firstand then differentiate and then
substantiate, and that resonancecomes from talking about the
other person is speaking tothem, not about yourself. So
that is absolutely the key toand actually to all great sales
(29:45):
conversations as well. It's notabout you. Yes.
Michael Kithcart (29:53):
And so help me understand. Because I feel like
I get a lot of you emails thatare they started along the lines
of I know you're so busy. AndI'm just checking in. I'm just
checking back on that email thatI sent you before. And again,
(30:15):
these are just like, clearlythey know nothing. Yeah, they're
just mass. But what is that?
Why? Where did that come from?
And how can we destroy it?
Charlene DeCesare (30:27):
Yeah. So and actually, you know what, out of
the all the things that you'vethe examples you just had, you
know, something that's like, nodoubt, you're very busy, you
know, writing your charitableorganization that does that. I'm
especially impressed by how youso if they start with talking
about you, honestly, like, I'mnot mad about that, if it starts
with my biggest pet peeve. AndI've gotten a lot of grief about
(30:49):
this on my tick tock videos,which by the way at Charlene
ignites on tick tock is whenpeople start their emails with
Hi, my name is and I just wantedto say, Okay, first of all, take
a deep breath, very riled up.
First of all, your name isalready two places on the email,
(31:10):
you don't need to tell me yourname. Second of all, whenever
somebody says, I just wanted tothe eye and anytime an email
starts with the letter I, andagain, to be helpful here, easy,
best way to change all of youremails is to start editing out
those ego words. I, me my Iwanted to I would love to,
(31:34):
because the AI says, Hey, thisis about me right now. Hello,
I'm over here, I want to sellyou something, you know, and
you're sort of counting onsomebody else to care. And then
the just is what we call akneecap word in jest is, you
know, as I say that your yourmessage will betray your
mindset. Just as a mindset tellthat says, I'm not confident
(31:56):
about this. I feel bad that I'mreaching out to you right now.
I'm going to shrink back just alittle bit, because I know this
is not going to go well.
Michael Kithcart (32:08):
So I'm so busted on that one.
Charlene DeCesare (32:10):
Oh, yeah.
Yes. Just like that. So what Iwant everybody when you have
rerigged. So I like to givethese tips. So get rid of the
word I you know, or make itabout them. How can you
reposition it, so it's aboutthem. And every time you go to
write the word just I want youto imagine that you're about to
get slapped in the face. Becauselike the just word, that word
(32:30):
justice, like your rights, likeshrinking back, right, I know
this is audio, but hopefully youget the like feeling of like,
like, oh, no, like, don't get mejust
Michael Kithcart (32:40):
you saying that just signals that you're
not confident pisses me off. Iam never using that
Charlene DeCesare (32:50):
word hashtag Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. And then the
other. The other thing is,again, it's it's about you know,
being so thoughtful The thingabout emails is we get way too
many of them. So in every word,every bit of attention you're
trying to get from the yourrecipient is so precious and
valuable. So I say this out oflove, because I don't want
(33:11):
people to waste their words. Andso if they're saying hi, I just
And then like I just wanted tosay okay, we I know you want it
to because you're doing it. So,you know, there's a lot of that,
like, let me tell you the innerworkings and motivations of this
behind the scenes of the email.
And again, that comes from aplace of insecurity. And it
comes from advisors, not feelingthat you have enough value, or
(33:34):
not internalize or articulatingyour value that just say what it
is, you know, so instead of Ijust wanted to invite you to
this webinar, I just wanted tosee if you might be interested
in my podcast, it's like, hey,you know, as a, as a growing
entrepreneur, I noticed that youposted your great results from
last year, you are likely tryingto reach a wider audience, or
(33:58):
you might find value in reachinga wider audience, would you
consider being on my podcast?
That's it? Right? So most of theediting that I do with emails,
which to be clear, I'm notasking for anybody to hire me to
edit their emails. Because Iwill sometimes get a lot of, can
I hire you to edit all myemails? You know, in the
(34:19):
coaching process, and when Ihelp people, most of the time,
we're just deleting words, we'redeleting words they don't need
and for example, when I tellpeople don't open with my name
is and they say, Well, whatshould I say instead? I say
nothing. Just don't read it andjust start you know. So it
(34:40):
really is about being judiciousand intentional with with those
words,
Michael Kithcart (34:45):
and I want to go back to what you said before
when I said how can we get ridof these just blanket emails
that say things that I alwaysfind are offensive. And you said
you don't mind when they saySurely you're busy, you know
running your organization XYZ,blah, blah, blah. The
distinction I realized out ofthe way you said it is that and
(35:08):
what triggers me is that there'snothing that states at all that
they know one thing about who Iam or what I do,
Charlene DeCesare (35:19):
right? You that's the absolute critical
piece is show them, you knowthem. So for example, I don't
know about you, but I get threeemails a day telling me how
impressive my profile is. Andevery now and then I get a
little snarky, and I write backand I'm like, so what do you
think is impressive? Tell memore, you know, because I know,
they haven't even looked at myprofile. They just, you know,
(35:40):
you sent it to all the girls. Soyeah, so it's if you find
something impressive aboutsomeone say, you know, I'm so
impressed by the work you'redoing with XYZ organization, you
know, the cat foster society, itspeaks to me, because I also
foster cats. Um, you know, andthen I'm curious. So here's one
(36:00):
eye phrase that I think isamazing. And actually science
agrees is I'm curious. I'mcurious. So open with something
about them, show them you knowthem, and then be genuinely
curious and ask an intelligentquestion that is about really
wanting to understand thembetter. And, and again, honors
(36:21):
the stage of the conversationyou're at. So for example, if
you have something to sell to, Iget, I just got one today for,
for marketing, somebody,somebody wants to offer me
marketing services to help meget more clients. Maybe the
first question is, I'm curious,are you in? Are you looking for
more clients? Not not? I'mcurious. What are you looking
(36:44):
for? When you're hiring amarketing agency? It's like,
Well, I'm not hiring a marketingagency, because I have a full
time job. I'm not looking for myclients, you know, but just
think about, like, what is thefirst question you need to ask?
What's that entry in the door,and what could you create as a
point of conversation that willresonate with them, and save the
(37:04):
selling for later, because itmay not be a good fit for you
either. And that's the otherpiece of this. Sometimes we get
ourselves so riled up abouttrying to be the perfect person
for someone else, that we forgetthat they have to be right for
us, as well. I tell my kids thisall the time, I'm like, if you
ever want to find the bestpartner, make sure that you find
(37:25):
that, you know, you find theright person for you, and that
you're also the right person forthem, you have to have both
sides, there'll be people thatare gonna love you that think
you're the best, you're notgonna be that into them, you're
under no obligation to embark ina relationship with them. But
some people get so overwhelmedby this idea of trying to win
others over that they forgetthat and that it's a mutually,
(37:47):
you know, beneficialrelationship that you're trying
to get to. And sometimes justhaving that attitude, you'll
show up in the way that youprospect, for example, in a much
better light. So for example, onan email, a call to action,
instead of saying, let's meet,and then I can tell you, like
how I can help you or we couldtalk about how we might partner
(38:08):
together. Maybe just say, youknow, let's meet and, you know,
we'll talk about this, we'lltalk about that, you know, talk
about you share some stuff aboutme, and then we'll mutually
decide on next steps, if any.
That's it. It's my one of myfavorite closing lines, by the
way, mutually decide on nextsteps, if any, take the pressure
off. See what happens mutuallysays has to be good for me too.
(38:29):
And that usually works. Yes. Oh,
Michael Kithcart (38:35):
great tips.
Charlene DeCesare (38:36):
You tell I get excited about this. I go on,
and I know you're passionateabout it. Excuse me, we only
have 30 seconds.
Michael Kithcart (38:44):
No, it's fine.
What I appreciate is that you'regiving really practical things
anybody could be listening rightnow. And you just helped improve
all have our email game. Sothank you for for that. And you
also created sales affirmationcards, I want to hear about
this, like, what makes themdifferent sales affirmation
(39:05):
cards?
Charlene DeCesare (39:08):
Well, it's really I think the thing that
I've sort of, maybe battled withand then embraced in my career
is trying to reconcile thisambition, this financial
ambition and this quest toreally achieve a level of
prosperity financially and toprovide for my family and
myself. And, you know, justbased on the way I was brought
(39:29):
up and whatnot, you know,there's definitely room to
vilify money and to think ofsales as a bad thing and all of
that, so I've embraced, like,I'm going to do certain things
that sales to make money. Andalso, I want to embrace that
sort of spiritual side of me orthat side of me that does
believe that the best is yet tocome that the universe is
(39:49):
working on my behalf. So longanswer short, it's sorted to
balance the sales training sidewith what my husband would call
the woowoo side. Oh, yeah. Thewoowoo Oh, yeah, but you know
what the reality is, it all doeswork together. And if you have
anyone, you know, in the worldof professional development that
studies, millionaire mindset andwhatnot, it is very much a
(40:12):
mental game and being able toaccept, for example, that when
you say, you know, abundance ismy natural state of being, or
I'm attracting, you know, theperfect clients, to be able to
believe it and not feel guiltyabout it, you know, and to feel
that that's something that youknow, you want and deserve and
can have and will have. And sothe idea behind the cars was
(40:36):
just to give people like theseone statement, things that they
could say, I'm a big fan ofaffirmations and sort of daily
brain programming aroundcreating what I want in my life.
I mean, this is even beforelike, the secret or law of
attraction, but I guess it'skind of in that vein, the way I
describe the sales successaffirmation cards is, it's the
(40:57):
intersection betweenaffirmation, and action. So you
might have like, one of thecards that I have in front of me
says, I lead conversations withcuriosity and caring, like I
believe, so I would just, Imight just pick that card in my
seven to lead my conversationswith curiosity and caring. And
now throughout my days, I'mhaving conversations and remind
(41:18):
me to ask more questions, totake the lead, to have love in
my heart, you know, so it kindof reminds me of that. There's
also one that says all of myactions support my dreams, you
know, so it's like, okay, like,I can dream and want things and
take action. There's another onethat's, you know, I wanted I
mentioned before, abundance ismy natural state of being I
(41:41):
accept it now. Asking forbusiness and closing deals comes
easily to me. Yes. And it's justsort of repeating these things
to yourself. So some of themgenuinely might be a tip like,
Oh, I didn't know I supposed todo that. Like I always get the
next meeting while I'm meeting.
That is my soapbox. That is mysales soapbox. If and this is
true for dating, for any time,teenagers, if you ever want to
(42:02):
see them again, while you havethem in front of in front of
you, you secure the next timethey're going to be in front of
you. Right? Right. So that'ssort of the idea behind the
cards is to give peoplepotentially a daily, like they
do a daily draw, I actually havea blog with like 15 ways to use
them. Great in meetings to sortof talk about best practices or
(42:24):
blockers, you can use it in aone to one meeting, you know,
what might be holding you back?
Do you believe this? Do you notbelieve it? Are you doing this
not doing it? So kind of like aconversation starter? Either
maybe with yourself? Or with ateam or with an officer? Yeah,
whatever. Yeah, it works.
Michael Kithcart (42:43):
Now I can see lots of uses for that. You're
active on social. In thebeginning, I said that you're
known as Charlene ignites. Sohow can people find you? What
are some of the different waysbecause you have so much to
offer? You said blogs, you havecards? Do you have books? Like
come on Charlene, how can we?
How can we keep learning fromyou?
Charlene DeCesare (43:03):
Well, I will say if there are people that are
in their early phases of likebuilding their brand, taking
that risk of putting themselvesout there, the best advice,
maybe not the very best, butlike very good advice that I got
was to come up with my brandthat I could have is my URL for
my website, and my hashtag forevery social media platform. And
(43:26):
then if you Google it, youthere's different various sites
where you can search to see ifsomething's available. So I
tried lots of combinations. Youknow, my tagline when I started
was an Inspire igniteilluminate. So I tried different
combinations Charlene ignites,was free on every social media
platform, and the URL. So thatbecame my sort of moniker I
(43:50):
guess. So as a result, I'm veryeasy to find I'm the only
Charleen ignites on the internetbecause I own it lately. I will
say I'm the most active on TikTok and LinkedIn, I hate to
disappoint anybody, I don'tdance. I don't Wagle I don't do
any of like the what peopleprobably think of tick tock as I
do sales tips, sometimes catvideos, and then also LinkedIn.
(44:13):
I'll share some things onLinkedIn. I really enjoy
connecting with people onLinkedIn. I welcome anyone to
send me a LinkedIn connectionrequest I always accept unless
you know it's like a fake personor something. Bill Gates has
tried to friend me like seventimes, and I'm pretty sure it's
not him. And yeah, I don't dotoo much Facebook these days,
(44:35):
because my business goals havechanged. Sometimes I go on
Twitter. If anybody wants toexchange Wordle results. I'm
happy to do that. So yeah, butthat's great. Well, thankfully
LinkedIn I'm gonna say if I hadto pick one place people want to
kind of find me LinkedIn wouldbe it. And it's the LinkedIn URL
slash Charlene ignites.
Michael Kithcart (44:55):
Okay. I love that and I can't leave without
asking you. What are you Achampion of
Charlene DeCesare (45:00):
oh, I'm a champion of curiosity. I'm a
champion. Just be curious, beinterested in other people,
instead of trying to beinteresting. How's that?
Michael Kithcart (45:11):
Yes, that's that's a great way to end. So
thank you so much, Charlene.
I've learned a lot today. And Iknow our listeners will too. So
appreciate you being a guest. Mypleasure, thank you so much.
Hey, before you go, I want toshare something with you that is
really kind of near and dear tomy heart. It is winning your way
(45:34):
for senior leaders. Now. This issomething that's been a like a
longtime vision dream for me andI am putting it into motion it
is starting in May. What it is,is, it's for women who are in
mid to upper level managementspecifically, these are women
who have been leading teams foryears and are either not getting
(45:57):
any professional development orwhat's being offered doesn't
match the level of leader thatthey want to be. They're often
sandwiched between the C suitewho gets executive leadership
support. And frontline managerswho get first time manager
cohort training. These are busysenior management, women, and
(46:19):
they have different challenges,needs and career goals. And
winning your way for seniorleaders provides that advanced
leadership developmentexperience that they've been
looking for. So you might justbe that person. If you are a
woman in senior management,check out the website at Michael
(46:43):
W kithcart.com. There's anapplication process. It's for 12
women who will go through a peergroup monthly for a year annual
program. It's like nothing thatyou've ever gone through before.
Because this is creatingleadership transformation from
(47:04):
the inside out. Person monthlyas a peer group, you have one on
one coaching throughout theyear. It supports a discovery of
learning, elevating leadershipeffectiveness, and designing
what success looks like, lookslike for you so that you're
winning your way in your wholelife. Would you hold us up? This
(47:28):
opportunity begins on May 11.
Again, it's limited to 12 seniorleaders committed to reaching a
new level of growth forthemselves and for others. It's
not a networking group. This isfull contact. We're going deep
here. So if you're interested infinding out more with Michael
studied kithcart.com
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