I Divorced My Sex Addicted Gay Husband: An Interview with Heather Bennett Nuṅoz

Heather was married to a sexually addicted gay man for twenty-four years before she divorced him. Listen to her story to discover how denial, gaslighting, rationalizing, and magical thinking can lead us to believe a lie when we could see the truth. 

Sexual addiction destroys intimacy and trust. It is even more challenging to come to terms with the fact that your husband is attracted to men, and yet the signs are often obvious. 

Heather Bennett Nuṅoz is a licensed marriage and family therapist. Heather shares her personal and professional insight and experience for women married to sexually addicted and/or gay men. She talks candidly about what the primary indicator of success with rehabilitation is and what women should prioritize after discovering a sexual addiction. 

If you or someone you know is in a relationship with a sex addict, please watch, listen, and share. You are not alone, and knowledge gives you power.

#sexaddictiondiscovery  #sexaddictionrecovery  #denial   #gaslighting  

  Recommended Resources:   "Straight Wives, Shattered Lives: Stories of Women With Gay Husbands," Bonnie Kaye. https://amzn.to/4naUKqU   Straight Wives, Shattered Lives Volume 3: True Stories of Women Married to Gay and Bisexual Men," Bonnie Kaye. https://amzn.to/42MefPl   APSATS-trained therapists who work with sexual addicts and their spouses: https://apsats.org/   Be Broken Ministry who work with sexually addicted men and provide a support group for recovery: https://www.bebroken.org/   Be Broken Ministry groups and resources for the wives of sex addicts: https://www.bebroken.org/wives   Karla's Resources:   Women Thriving in Difficult Marriages Zoom Class  https://www.changemyrelationship.com/women-thriving-in-difficult-marriages-zoom-study/   Truth in the Mirror https://www.changemyrelationship.com/truth-in-the-mirror-class/   10 Lifesaving Principles for Women in Difficult Marriages, by Karla Downing   https://amzn.to/3JjEw0I   Website: https://www.changemyrelationship.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ChangeMyRelationship YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@changemyrelationship

Watch this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Bg_RFA1OPvY

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
You're listening to a podcastby Change My Relationship,
featuring licensed marriageand family therapist and author
Karla Downing.
These podcast are designedto provide you
with practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today,Karla will be interviewing
a guest who has experienceda relationship problem

(00:22):
and successfullyworked through it.
Welcome to ChangeMy Relationship podcast.
I have with me today HeatherBennett Nunez,
and she is a friend of mine,but also a licensed
marriage and family therapist.
We are going to be talking firstabout her personal experience

(00:45):
in a marriage to a manwith a sexual addiction,
who she found outwas also a closeted gay.
And she's going to talkabout what it was like
to discoverthat her process, part of
which I was able to witnessas we were friends at that time.
And then she's going to give yousome of her
clinical experiencewith, marriages, women

(01:08):
that are married to menwith sexual addictions.
And we're goingto give you recommendations.
So stay tuned.
Listen to the whole thing.
I think it's going to bepretty engaging.
So welcome. Heather.
Oh, it's a delight to be here.
And Karla, you know,I wouldn't be here
where I am todaywithout your classes.
Your classeswere really instrumental in me

(01:29):
sort of, detangling my innatecodependency based on my
family of origin versusmy strong Christian faith.
That was those were co-mingledand, Change
My relationship really helped medetangle that mess.
And also, truth in the mirrorwas a great class
because anyone who is marriedto a sexually addicted spouse

(01:50):
really takes a shot when
it comes to their self-esteem,their worth, their desirability,
their feminine spirit,all of that.
when love hurts,these are resources.
Back in the olden days,when I was in private practice
that I would constantly usewith my, clients to help them
sort of peel back the layersin their difficult marriage.
Like what is sort of workable.

(02:12):
Where can you expect change?
Where do youyourself have to change?
Because, they're not going tochange. And what is what is it?
The bottom line.You can't do it anymore.
And all of this
gets really confused,especially with Christian women
who are taughtto just love sacrificially.
And, many of us come fromfamilies of, difficult origin

(02:33):
where maybe there was
alcoholism or depressionor some sort of thing going on
where we learnedthat, it's normal and.
Okay, to just tolerate stuffthat really, at the end
is not healthy.
So thank you, Karla,because I really don't think
I'd be in a wonderful marriageright now.

(02:53):
Enjoying my lifeas a licensed clinician
if I hadn't gone through those,classes with you and started
working on my own self.
As I was goingthrough the licensure process.
So. So thanks for all you do,Karla, it’s invaluable.
Well, thank you for that.
Just really wonderful
endorsement to, have peoplego ahead and look up my classes.

(03:15):
I would agree they are very,very life changing.
So yes.
Okay.
Let's getinto your personal experience.
How did you and your husbandmeet and what was that?
What was he likewhen you were dating?
Yeah.
So my husband
and I met at Chapman College,which is now Chapman University.
And back in the olden days,it was a small school.

(03:36):
It was 1200 students,and half of us lived on campus.
So it was everybody.
Everybody knew each other.
Everybody knew eachother's business.
I was in the communicationsdepartment,
in public relations,and I had a lot of friends
that were in the filmdepartment.
And Chapman's film departmentended up later
just exploding into this, like,nationally recognized program.

(03:59):
And my, my husbandwas also in public relations
and just really articulateand charming and attractive.
Lots of friends,the life of the party.
And so I was just sort of,attracted to his charisma.
He was very justphysically attractive to me and,
he was very smart,
being smart and, humorous is ais a big draw for me.

(04:24):
So I was attracted to all thosecomponents of his personality.
Yeah.
Sounds, definitely like he was,charismatic and we won't use
the other word at this point.
I'll let you wait and decideif you're going to use that.
So how long did it takebefore you were, got married?
Well, it was so we met incollege, and we did in college.
Just some really sortof light dating.

(04:46):
we would like, hang out,maybe make out after a thing.
And interestingly enough,my husband had gone to La Habra
high schooland had co-hort of a people
from that same high schoolthat went to the college,
including his high schoolgirlfriend
and his high school girlfriend.
Continued to date him,
those first couple of yearsat Chapman.

(05:08):
So I never even dawned on methat my husband was
potentially gay because I knewhis high school girlfriend.
We were all friends.
He was carrying
on a sexual relationshipwith her
while we were all in collegetogether,
and my husbandand I really didn't
start dating seriouslytill five years after college.

(05:28):
We met again at an alumni event,
and at that alumni eventwe reconnected
and then we started seriouslydating.
Okay, and how long did you datebefore you got married?
So we dated for a year,got engaged for nine months,
and then got married. Okay.
And then what was your marriage
like when your children wereyoung, you had two children?

(05:48):
Yes, I have two children.
And, what was it like whenyour children were young?
So, I
always wanted to be a mother,so that was a very
important thing to me.
And I alwayswanted to be a stay at home mom.
My mom,
my own mother had driven into methe importance of education,
but also how valuablechildren are
and how they're only young fora very finite period of time.

(06:10):
Plus I was listening to DoctorLaura all the time on the radio,
and she was always saying,
you could do everythingbut do it sequentially.
So that was alwayssomething I wanted to do.
So I decided to get pregnant oneyear after we'd been married,
because by then I was 30and I really wanted children.
So, when my son Ben came along,everything was great.

(06:32):
I loved my extended family.
I loved my husband's parents.
They were amazing, giving,loving people.
And it's interesting
how people are differentas grandparents
than the experience ofhaving them as your own parent.
My ex would say, like,
I can't believe how lovingand kind my my dad is with Ben

(06:53):
because he wasn'tthat patient with me.
He would call me chickenshit,he would call me names,
and my husband would say to mesometimes, like,
how heartbreaking it was to him
that people assume he's gayjust because he's kind of more,
I don't want to say effeminate,but more like articulate.
Would use his hands.
Cared about decor.
Sort of like typical gayish things.

(07:15):
But he wouldhe would just say openly
how heartbreakingthat was for him. Because.
Because he's alwayshad to defend against that.
And he's had a girl.
I've had girlfriends,he has his wife.
And that that's justheartbreaking.
So he would acknowledge thatpeople would think he was gay,
but he would heavily defendagainst that.
Yeah. It's interesting.
And then but did you have like,dysfunction in your marriage?

(07:37):
I mean, you both came fromsome dysfunctional backgrounds.
Yeah.
Did, well, I would saywhat happened initially is that,
he began rising throughthe corporate ranks at direct TV
and, and I got laid offfrom Johnson and Johnson
when Ben was about two.
And then my dreamcould have happened,
and I could be a stay at home
mom and eventuallyhave another child.

(07:58):
And he was sort ofgoing up the ranks.
And so he was workingcrazy hours.
His office was in El Segundo.
It would be like a90 minute commute.
And so I was very awarethat there was a disconnection
and I wanted more love,affection and connection
in our relationshipand I would express that to him.

(08:18):
But at the other hand,
I kind of got into thistraditional role of,
he's going off, he's climbingthe corporate ladder.
I'm handling everythingon the home front.
I have my dream come true,
which is to be a stayat home mom,
which is the hardestwork on planet Earth. Okay.
And so
I just started to accept thatwe're disconnected for a season.

(08:43):
I just figured as he's risingthe corporate ladder
as these children are young,this is my area of expertise.
That's his area of expertise.
And I started
attending really conservativeBible studies, which I loved.
I learned a lot about the Bible,
but it sort of reinforcedthis very, separate role.

(09:04):
Like, don't look to your husbandfor emotional connection.
Don't look to your husbandfor emotional affirmation,
find your girlfriends,find your friend group
and they're where you're going
to land for emotional supportbecause he's busy
doing, the traditional mankind of thing.
So I just sort of acceptedand normalized the disconnect.

(09:26):
Plus, my parentsweren't very connected.
My mom became increasinglydepressed and alcoholic.
My dad worked more and more,took a job in Alaska, gone
six weeks home four weeks.
So this disconnection betweenhusband and wife, as they're
just involved in their roles,did not feel that strange to me
because that'show my parents functioned well.

(09:47):
And then we didn't,and we didn't really expect
our husbands to be anthat involved in child rearing
or that involved with anythinggoing on in the house
or even that involved in meetingour emotional needs.
I mean, I don't know,
I thought about thattype of thing
when we were growing up,and neither did our parents.
They gave us a roofover our head

(10:08):
and they gave us meals
and discipline,and that was there
and brought usto church on Sunday.
And that was our role.
So, I mean, I kind offit into exactly the same thing.
My husband worked a lot too,
and I just went right
into the separate roles and,you know, was happy in it
with, you know, with home,with my kids
and part time workingso that I could spend

(10:29):
a lot of timeas a mom and prioritize that.
So I totally get that.
So, when did you have any ideathat there was a sex addiction?
So, When I was stillworking for Johnson and Johnson.
So this would be beforemy son hit two.
This is the olden days
where you'd get an expenseaccount,
and I would have

(10:49):
to use my personal phoneto do business calls.
So I would geta copy of the phone bill.
And I would highlight, like,
this is a call to Children'sHospital.
This is a call to UCLAmedical center.
This.
So and I'd have to line outthose calls.
I mean it was so different backthen from what was personal.
And nine, seven,
six numbers startedshowing up different numbers.

(11:12):
And so at first I,he would just say,
oh, I don't know how that gotthere. It's an accident.
It wasn't me. I'm like,that's really weird, right?
He would use that laterwhen the internet came on.
And I'm like,
why is all this weird sex stuffcoming up on, our email?
And he's like, oh,everybody gets that.
And I was just sort of naive,codependent, oh, all of that.

(11:33):
Right.
And so I one day called one ofthese nine, seven, six numbers.
And at this point, Ben
was, it's still in my armsas a nursing child,
and I'll never forgetthe background
music was the songI can hear clearly now.
The rain is gone.
Oh. So for years,that song would just trigger

(11:55):
heart palpitationsbecause that song would play.
And then the line would say, hi,welcome to the gay hotline.
We're here to blah, blah, blah,
a bunch of sexually explicitstuff.
And I was like,
like, this can't be true.
Total like like I'm what?

(12:15):
I couldn't even fathom it.
And and so when you startto hear or see something,
it's almost like you lose you.
You leave your body andyou can see yourself in shock.
Yeah.
Watching this whole thing,like trying to make sense of it.
And so when he came home thatnight, I was like, what is this?

(12:35):
Oh, he he said, oh,I called that by mistake,
but it's actually your faultbecause,
that day that I was lonelyand I was drinking a little bit,
you were at a Creative Memories
crafting partydoing photo albums
and you weren't there to meetmy needs sexually.
So I just was, like, messingaround with a bunch of things.
And then.
And, And Karla,I went, I bought it,

(12:56):
I bought it,I'm like, it's my fault.
I was at this three hour
crafting party,and so it's my fault.
Yeah, yeah, it's very commonfor us to do that,
not just with that situation,but with anything
that especiallywhen people are manipulative
in their blame
shifting and we're codependent,
we accepttoo much responsibility,
and we don't recognizethat somebody

(13:19):
is putting the responsibilityfor their stuff on us.
Plus, we're in that environment.
Whereas women were supposed
to meet our husbandssexual needs and. Right.
So it was kind of likea, culture in the church
that suggests thatthat is a woman's responsibility
and that men don't
have the abilityto control their sexual desires,

(13:39):
and that we have to make surethat we meet them in order
for them to stay.
And that's absolutely ridiculousand not true.
But right, as aa kind of the, suggested,
realitythat's presented, unfortunately.
So I didn't even realize that
you knew it that far back then,or that you had, like,
any indications at all.So what happened after that?

(14:02):
After he made that excuse?
You kind of.
He just he I just, I thought,oh gosh, he's right.
I wasn't, available to him.
So I, I think I really justthen changed
when I would do those things
so that they'd be like early
morning on a Saturday or like,sometime
where it wouldn’t interferewith his needs, I'm sure.

(14:24):
I, and at this time, I'm.
I'm creating a dream for myself.
My dream is the white picketfence.
This little family.
I'm thinking abouthaving my second child.
I know that I am disconnectedin this marriage.
I know that there'snot a lot of sexual connection,
but mostly I attributethe lack of sexual connectivity

(14:44):
to the factthat the guy works 60 hours
a week, plus has a 90 minutedaily commute,
and so I justput it off to that.
Now I will say in my ownspirit, my, my,
if you think about your femininespirit
being a plant, needing water,I was parched, dry.
I'm in my 30s, I'm
in my 30s, and I'm having sexmaybe once a week.

(15:08):
And my, by my mid 30s, like merequesting sexual connection
with my husband was, was like,it was like, okay, I'll do it.
Like the way,
like the way you might haveto take out the trash.
I felt like a chore, like, okay,I gotta pick that off.
But, I felt like a chore.I didn't feel desired.
I just felt like I was a taskthat had to be attended to

(15:30):
to make the marriage work.
So you can imagine overthe course of five, ten, 15,
20 years what that really doesto your feminine spirit.
I mean, you just stop to evenyou don't
even think about yourselfas a sexual person anymore.
You have to shut
that side of your stuffreally way, way down
because of chronic rejection.
Yeah.

(15:51):
And you kind of blame yourselfwhen you feel like
there's somethingwrong with you and that,
or I'm assuming that
that's what we usually doas women is think, oh, if only.
Oh, yeah, well,If only I was more available
when he needed it. Right.
Not when I needed it.When he needed it.
I also like by the timewe had our second child
he was like,hey, if you lose ten, 10 pounds,

(16:12):
you might get a little bit more.
And by then I knew.
No. Yeah.
You're just it is what it is.
I mean,
and then by that time, likeOprah was having shows about
low testosterone and like, lackof sex and kind of normalized
lack of sexual connectionin marriages with, like, low T.
And then when you then, later
on, there's likethe Kinsey scale

(16:33):
and everybody's on a scaleof what they like,
what they don't like,frequency and everything.
There's just a bunch of nonsensethat you try and grab onto
to make sense of it.
Because hereall my girlfriends are talking
about being constantly pursuedby their husbands sexually,
and I'm trying to make sense ofwhy am I not ever pursued.
So did you findother indications of,

(16:55):
you said
even when the internet came outthat you also excused the
emails coming in
and the different thingsthat were happening,
that he gave you excusesand you bought into them, so
did you continue to see itfrequently or did you know,
I always thought I was very mucha late adopter of technology?
So when the internetfirst came around, let's

(17:17):
say 2000, 2003,we had a computer in our house.
I did know enough that
you should always have it,like in an open area.
And at that time,probably Ben was,
I don't know, maybeeight years old or something.
And I thought, oh,
I don't want my kid accidentallyclicking on something weird.
So we had it in a family area,and, I really didn't

(17:40):
think about itbecause, you know, Karla,
one of the things you talk aboutyour classes is
when you're an honestand trustworthy person,
you projectthat trait onto your spouse.
And so I could not even conceive
of my spousehaving a whole art, like,
like a whole other life,having a whole other reality.

(18:03):
To me, reality was, hard workingman leader in the church
up there every Sundaysinging worship songs.
On the church board, we’reconnected with different people.
Another side thing isthat when Ben was about,
three, three and a half, my exwas became a, a secret drinker.

(18:27):
Now again,
I didn't see all the cluesright away because my mom
was such a drinker.
But it was different becausewith my mom, it wasn't a secret.
She would sit at her deskto read the Wall Street Journal.
She would drink,
she would smoke a bunch ofcigarettes, and she would just
slowly get drunk with my ex.
He would come to drive through

(18:47):
dairy on the way homeand get big things of beer
or alcohol,drink them in the car
right beforehe came into the house.
So the drive to dairywas a couple blocks away,
and then he would get his thingand I'm like,
it's brown paperbag is doing in your SUV.
Oh, I don't know.
they were from,when you get a big thing a beer
and they put it in a brown paperbag, whatever.

(19:09):
So part of the disconnect was bythe time
Ben was three and a half,
I thought I was dealingwith alcoholism.
And I had my ownunfinished work, which was
I couldn't save my mom,which I had tried.
I, I walked from Chapman
Universityto Saint Joseph's of Orange,
found out about their
residential treatment program,

(19:31):
and arranged an interventionfor my mom.
When my dad came backfrom Alaska
my freshman year of, college.
But there was inside methis hurt
little girl that said I didn't.It couldn't take mom.
I will save my husband.
I will save my husband.
So for many years,
I thought the problem of thisdisconnect was alcoholism.
Yeah.
And I was committedto resolve it in our family.

(19:55):
And I think the tricky partin a long term
marriage isit's not all terrible, right?
Because eventually my husbanddid get recovery
from his alcoholism,and we had about seven years
in the middle of that 24 yearperiod.
There were actually really goodwhere he, I do believe,

(20:17):
was authentically convertedand very engaged in church.
And, I kind of had my dream fromthe time Ben
was about 4 or 5 till the timeBen was about 12.
I kind of got my,my thing that I want.
And I remember
being in church like,thank you, Lord,
for saving my familyfrom alcoholism, saying so.
So for many yearsI thought alcoholism addiction

(20:40):
was the problem, which isfixable in my own fixable.
Right.
You can get recovery, right?
So, so yeah.
And so it really wasn't until,we moved out of state,
I really saw an uptick in emailcoming through a sexual nature
and saying to my husband,why is this happening?
And do we need better filters?

(21:01):
And one day, about probably,like 2004, 2005,
I finally clicked on them.I never click on them.
I clicked on one and saw thatit was two men, having sex.
And at that moment I just froze.
My my spirit left my body.
I was in complete shock.
The amount of shame you feeland the amount

(21:23):
of repulsion you feeland what to do with all of this.
I remember getting in the carand driving
to my best friend's house,but she wasn't there
and it was a ruralpart of Oregon,
so I was just driving around,sort of disconnected, right?
And disembodied, from it all.
But then when I came back,talking to my husband,

(21:45):
him saying,it was a stress response.
It's not really who I am.
It just when I get stressed,blah blah, blah.
And so we made an agreementfor him
to get specialized treatmentfrom a therapist who is at
that time connected to ExodusInternational, which was,
a Christian ministrywith for men struggling
with same sex attraction.

(22:05):
And it was on its way out,losing kind of favor
in the churchfor whatever reasons.
It was on its way out.
But there happened to be
a clinician, ironicallyenough, in Tustin, California,
where I live now,who specialized in this. So.
So my husband flew down,spent a week
like, like daily treatmentwith this clinician
that I trustedbecause I had seen him speak

(22:27):
on, focus on the familyon different platforms.
And my husband came backand reported to me
that the clinician said,I'm not gay.
I'm just an addict.
Well, relief.
Well, that's a fixa little problem.
Yeah.
So, okay.

(22:48):
You're right. Yeah.
So, and you want beyou want to believe it?
Yes. Part of the denial and.
Yes, you know. Yeah. Sobut yeah,
that was a reputable personthat you trusted
telling him that he was okay.
So just went back under boardagain, right?

(23:09):
Yeah.
Then we still continued
with some marriage therapyup in Oregon.
But here's the thing.
Therapistscan only deal with the truth
that is presented to them
and with realitythat is presented to them.
And so really, most of our stuffwas like emotion
focused therapy, working on,connection in the relationship.

(23:29):
but how connected can you bewhen there's a giant?
There's a giant lifeand a secret life going on.
I think of all the timesthat we are in therapy.
Where I wasn't dealing with,
I didn't knowthe reality of the situation,
and he wasn't transparent withthe reality of the situation,
but he was becoming moreand more depressed.
I could see that he was becomingmore and more depressed,

(23:50):
and he had struggledwith, mood dysregulation.
Right.
And at that time, remember,I'm training to be a therapist.
I'm not a therapist.
I'm taking some classes on it,and I didn't see that anger
and reactivitywere part of depression.
I just thought,my husband is becoming a jerk.
He's more angry.He's more reactive.
There's walking on eggshells.

(24:10):
He wasthere was an uptick in drinking.
And then I was asking him to goto celebrate recovery meetings.
And he's like,we live in a small community.
I don't want anyone to know.
And I'm like, well,then do it online.
So just a lot of dysfunction.
And then meantime I'm like,okay, nose to the grindstone.
I'm starting graduate school.
I'm going to focus on this.

(24:31):
I'm going tofocus on my children,
and then we'll see where itlands.
When they leave the house.
So at that point I, I loved him.
I knew he loved mekinda like the best he could.
But he was super brokenand I just decided that,
I'm going to just focus onwhat I can focus on
and do the best I can with him,and we'll see how it goes.

(24:54):
Yeah.
Which is what a lot of women do,
and no matter what the problemsare, makes total sense.
So what
blew it up?
Well, a lot of different things.
So, we had invested ina, business.
It was three drivethrough coffee stands.
And it was 2008, and we hadmortgaged all of our houses.

(25:19):
We had a fully paid for a housein La Habra, California,
and a half paid for housein Medford, Oregon,
and we mortgaged all of thoseassets with a business partner
who then defaultedon paying back any of it.
And so when we were liablefor all the debt
on all of our housesand had to go bankrupt.
But you know what?

(25:39):
If like I had walked through
something like thatwith my current husband, there's
reality in my relationshipand strength and resiliency.
So I would have to say thatbroke up the marriage.
It certainly wasa disruptive factor, right?
But it didn't itand it was a stressor.
But what really happenedis as he was walking through

(26:02):
that, my husband
started using substancessecretly more and more often.
So he was respondingto the stress
I found, I found outI found these little bottles.
I didn't know what it was. SoI called up a therapist friend.
She's like, that's amyl nitrite.
He's getting high in the panin the shed with amyl nitrite.
I'm like,what's that used for? You know?

(26:23):
Well, I found outgay men use it to mask,
you know,to, like, relax everything
and to have a better orgasmwhen they're masturbating.
I would find sexual objectsthat I couldn't understand
what they were used for.
And then, because I'm naive,I don't know.
And my friend would explain.
Well, that's a thingthat they use to also
enjoy sex morewhen they're masturbating.

(26:45):
I'm like.
So as Warren,as he became tended to use
substances moreas he became more dysregulated.
But then finally when I
my son was havinga lot of reaction to the chaos,
because we had movedfrom Medford back to California
and there was a lot of conflictbetween my son and my husband,
and I think my son knewa lot of nonsense was going on

(27:08):
before I ever knew,a lot of nonsense was going on.
And, I took him to a reallyhighly trained eMDR
therapist, and,that therapist basically
pulled me aside and said, you'resuper codependent.
I want you to startworking on that.
So that's how I found you
as I started going to
a codependency classat your church.

(27:29):
And then they told meabout your classes. Okay.
So I love how God kind of worksit all out.
He's like, and you got to getyour son out of this.
It's killing your son.
And your husband is a toxic,terrible parent.
Right.
And it was weird
when I when a subject matterexpert said that clearly to me,
then my protective gears got inand within a week,

(27:49):
he was on a Greyhound bus
back to Oregonto go live with friends
and complete his senior yearof high school. Right.
But in the meantime,
there was a real uptickin anger and reactivity.
There is a real uptickin weird shit
I was finding around the housethat I didn't know what it was.
And then, and by then I thinkhe had a separate computer.
So I didn't seea lot of his stuff.

(28:10):
But my daughter was a juniorin high school,
and she was on the same iCloudfor her phone.
Yeah.
And we were at Crystal CoveBeach
and the phones were sinkingand the Grindr app came.
And Grindr is basically an appsimilar to Tinder, where gay men
can see who's in their perimeterand then they go and hook up.

(28:32):
Yeah, right.
And so it wasit was finding that,
and by the time I foundall of that,
I started creatingan exit strategy in my own mind.
Right.
But I was tryingto keep it together
until my daughtergraduated high school
and trying to keep it together.
Another thing that happened
is that therapist also saidyour husband is secretly
drinking,secretly doing all of this.

(28:52):
You've got to demand thathe's sober.
So I did like we didan intervention under the.
So the therapist said,I want to talk to you about.
Then we both came inand then the therapist
basically said, you're Jeff,you're doing this,
you're doing this,you're doing this.
And here's the number and you're
you're signed up for a screeningat the rehab center.
And my ex was furious,but he did go through with it.

(29:16):
And it was the startof a process for him.
What he did to his credit,get a year of sobriety in.
And so he did get a yearof sobriety from substances.
And and this is what was thefinal straw for me Karla.
And I think I even called youthe night I discovered this.
I remember the night.
Yeah.
So, I was on the fencetrying to hold it in

(29:37):
so that my daughtercould graduate high school.
And I read in his AA journalfrom his sponsor.
To this day,
I don't even didn't even knowa fraction of the truth.
But once I found his AA journalwhere he hid it during the day,
I would read thatso I would know actually
what was going onand part of one of the steps is,

(29:57):
saying like the thingsthat you've done.
Yeah.
How they made you feeland the consequences
they had on other people.
And I rememberhe had a line in there.
I've had I've had sexwith numerous
anonymous men riskingmy health, and Heather's.
Yeah.
And then and as soon as I saw itin black and white,
his whole and his handwriting,I'm like, I'm out of here,

(30:19):
I am out of here.
It's one thingthinking that it's just porn.
It's just porn. It's just porn.
But once you see that,no, it's not just porn
that he's physically,
he has no problemrisking my health and safety
while he's getting it onwith some stranger.
Okay, so that was it.
I'm out, I'm out, I'm I'm out.

(30:40):
I moved bedrooms,
but I remember you moving,saying
I'm going to move bedrooms,but I'm going to stay
until the kids graduate.
So I thought that'swhat you said.
And that's true.
What women tell meis I'm going to,
if they're close to their kids,graduating.
I'm just going to hang in therein a separate I won't be
I won't, have relationshipswith them,
like relations with them,but I don't

(31:02):
I don't want to blow upthe house and.
Right, I'll blow up their lives.
And then I said,wait till you get
really angryand the reality hits you.
I doubt you're going to be ableto do that.
Well,anger is a blessing in disguise.
I didn't know it at the time.
Because you're
you are slowly losing yourself
and becoming more and moredepressed as you navigate this.

(31:24):
So anger does give you the,the, the energy
to advocate for yourselfand the energy to do something.
So anger can be a gift. Yes.
It didhelp me out of my depression,
but really, it was my daughtercoming to me and she said, mom,
I don't know everythingthat's going on,
but clearly it's terrible, andI don't want to live like this.

(31:46):
And so you need to leave.
I know, yeah, I know that youhave another place you could go.
And and it's weird.
I said, I'm making a plan,but I'm.
I'm kind of waiting.
Well,she ended up going to spring
break up in Oregon, andI decided, what am I here for?
I'm not going to bein this house with him.
I'm going to go to my bestfriend's house.
Ironically, my best friendwho is still my friend.

(32:09):
It is my ex's first cousin.
So it gets a little messy there,right?
So, messy for her.
So I moved in with her.
I didn't I packed an overnightbag thinking I'm
staying for a couple nightswhile Serena's on spring break.
I ended up never coming back.
I didn't know, it'sjust the more I started
to have distance from it,the more I could detach from it.

(32:32):
The more I was like,this is insane.
I have heart palpitations.
My doctor is going to put meon all this medication.
I've had to go to my doctorand cry and get every STD,
aids, HIV tests,every kind of test.
I've been an honest and faithfulspouse for 23 years.
it was so disregulated mentally,spiritually, biologically.

(32:57):
I was so distraught.
I had heart and heartmonitor on.
I had all this stuffgoing on out my body
just couldn't take it anymoreand it could finally rest.
When I was at my, my,my friend's house.
So I said, I justI can't go back.
I just my my body can't take it.
I can't go back.
And my daughter was okaywith that.

(33:17):
She was like,I don't like the energy.
I now in the interim,part of what happened,
because you don'teven understand
that when you're therefor the kids,
you don't really understandthat you're modeling
huge dysfunctionfor your children.
I didn't get that part.Yes. Yeah.
Huge dysfunction.
I am modeling, okay?
As my dad modeled dysfunction.
It's not your intent.

(33:38):
You're trying to give themas a stable,
intact systemto move through, to launch from.
But you don't realize thatyou're on the long haul.
Modeling terrible stufffor them, right?
I mean, I wish I could go back
to have my then 22 yearold son saying to me, mom,
if you would have left at 12,my whole

(33:59):
my whole life would have beentotally different. Heartbreak.
I you know, it's heartbreaking
because you're tryingyou're always trying
to do the best thingfor everyone else.
You are always trying to do
the best thing for your kidsand for your family.
And to think me doing my best
resulted in my sonhaving a lot of consequences
moving forwardfrom all of this dysfunction.

(34:21):
And my daughter,
all this dysfunctionbeing modeled for him.
So, so kind of a complexanswer there.
But, yeah.
So it happened in stages.
And when I moved out,
my daughterthought I was mad about my ex
drinking or relapsingor something like that.
And I said,you know what, honey?
When your dad's readyto tell you,

(34:41):
he will tell you more about it.
But then in the interim,
that therapistwho had been working with my son
started seeing my daughterand said to my daughter,
be careful because you will bethe next identified patient,
right?There's a lot of dysfunction.
You're going to bethe next identified patient.
He called it the IP.
So my daughter was pissed.
She didn't believe that robotsplay the movie.

(35:03):
Forward six months,my daughter's cutting.
I discover thatshe's hurting herself right.
I sent her to.
At that time, I'm interningat a therapeutic practice.
I send her to a respectedtherapist.
She loves him,and she stops hurting herself.
The therapist comes to meand says, your daughter
still doesn't understandwhat it is that her dad is.

(35:24):
It's like she's drinking River,drinking
water from a poisonous fountainall the time. And.
And if she's got to know
the truth, otherwise,I can't make progress.
Wow, wow. Now that.
So that therapist knew
because you had toldthat therapist, right? Yes, yes.
So the therapist is looking at,like, the cognitive dissonance

(35:45):
that she's trying to make sense
but doesn't knowwhat she's making sense of
and that that is havinga negative impact on her.
So he actually because
that was one of my questionsI was going to ask you is like,
how do you handle this?
Do you tell family members,do you tell his family?
First of all,do you tell your kids?
Is that in their best interest?

(36:05):
And you actually had a therapisttelling you?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So the therapist said,I can't make any more progress
until she actually knowswhat's going on,
because right nowit's all your fault
because you'rean unforgiving person, right?
So I finally just because my exhad had months and months now
to say something.
So I called him and I said,
hey, look, I'mtalking to Serena’s therapist.

(36:27):
If you don't tell her about youbeing gay, I'm
going to have to do it.
And then he's like, lividwith me and it's not my right.
And how dare I?
So, back in the olden days,we used to love going to Barnes
and Nobles and picking out bookswhere all the big readers.
So that evening, my extook her out to Barnes and Noble
and said something to the kid.

(36:49):
She told me the next day,she's like, dad told me.
I go, hey, sweetheart,what did Dad tell you?
Dad told me that sometimes
on occasion, he struggleswith same sex attraction.
Oh, okay. Okay, sweetie.
Oh. Okay, sweetie.
Okay, sweetie.
So then I just.
She's like, I could see wherethat would be upsetting.

(37:11):
So she started to kind of putsome pieces together.
Now we wait another week or two,she goes, mom,
do you thinkdad would ever act out on that?
Like thathe would actually do something.
I'm like, sweetheart,I'm really sure he probably has.
Okay.
So it kind of was a little bit
dribs and drabs with her,but then she slowly started

(37:33):
to put the pieces togetherthat like, okay, that's,
that's, like that'swhy mom had to draw the line
and that's why mom left. Right.
And so and she ended uploving that therapist.
Stop stopping the self-harm.
And then he inspired her.
She's a therapistnow. She's an LPC up in Oregon.
So, I wish I could say that

(37:53):
saved her from makingdysfunctional choices.
It has not.
But, but he did inspire herto be to become a therapist.
She... And the your son
knew also.
So you told me so or.
Yeah.
So my son, once
that was all happening in thetherapeutic process and I, I,
I talked to my son about it,
and I remember him saying,you know what?

(38:15):
I was really confusedbecause in high school,
I would click on some thingsand it was men having sex.
And I thought it was youwatching it, mom.
And it made no sense to me.
Like,why would you watch that? Right?
He's like,I didn't know what to do.
I but one timewe were driving with my son,
right around this period,we were driving up

(38:36):
north for a family event,and Serena had on her earbuds.
Ben was talking to both of us,and, Ben said, dad,
if you're gay,why did you ever marry mom?
Radio silence.
We didn't see anything.
Now, this is beforeI had my dad, but my my son.
Just justput it out there, right?
And neither of us knewwhat to do with it.

(38:58):
But that was priorbefore everybody, got into some,
some therapy. So.
So he knewnonsense was going on.
I think it makes it a lot
harder for, a young mantrying to grow into a man
when they have just really poormodeling and that and they
so they reject that and maybethey don't have another model.

(39:19):
So they're kind of,
failing to thriveor failing to launch longer
because they don't reallythey had like this chaotic mess
that they're tryingto sort through. Absolutely.
So you ended upwhat about his family?
Did you tell his familyokay. Why you were so I,
I didn't I'll tell you why
I loved them so deeply,
and they were so goodto my children

(39:40):
that it would havedevastated them.
It would have devastated them.
So 2012.
I left later in 2012,early 2013, my father in law
passed away.
Once my father in law passedaway, the floodgates opened
and my ex startedhaving boyfriends.
Having all kinds of casual sex.

(40:01):
This is while my daughter'sin high school.
Okay.
And then, my exdid tell his mom.
Okay.
And, so eventually it came out,but I,
I just didn't want to hurt thembecause I loved them so deeply.
And in each of these decisionsare made
based on the circumstancesthat a person finds them.

(40:22):
And there's no a like,this is the way
you have to do it kind of thing.
You've got to take each of thesituations into consideration.
And I think that lovinghis parents and knowing,
especially when they're older,how that would impact them,
that that's a
they were in their 80sand I maintained
a strong connectionwith my mother in law.

(40:42):
even in these past ten years.
And I had to maintaina friendship with my ex
because he was the gatekeeperto my mother in law,
because as her Alzheimersprogressed,
she came to live with him,which is a whole other story,
like, why would you puta bipolar, addict,
who's struggling with suicidaland suicide, in charge of,

(41:03):
elderly personwith Alzheimer's,
because he really did tankquite heavily after we divorced.
Deep into depression.
He had already had onesuicidal attempt
when Ben was threeand a half in front of Ben.
Ben walked into him,
in the garagewith a noose around his neck,
trying to kill himself. Yeah,

(41:23):
that was
that was the first timethat I said, okay, no drinking.
And then that was the start ofthe seven years that were okay
because, he got connectedin church and got sober,
but it was because,Ben walked in.
I was nursing Serena.
Ben walked in. Mommy, mommy,daddy is trying to kill himself.
And what did I say?Don't be ridiculous.
Your dad would never do that.

(41:44):
Then I came into the garageand I saw a note saying.
Ben, you're my number one son.I'll always love you.
And then he's passed out
and was surroundedby beer cans in the backyard.
And I'm like,I'm not doing this.
So, and.
Yeah,and so that's a nice little
traumatic expense experiencefor a three and a half year old.
So discoveringthat there's a sexual addiction

(42:06):
that's been going on for yearsand years that you didn't really
either recognize or know aboutis incredibly traumatizing.
And that's the new words
that we used to describethat now is betrayal trauma.
Because yousomebody has betrayed your trust
and you're emotionally and,physically and,
dependent on them in some ways.

(42:28):
And you have a relationship
in which you're not supposed
to have things that are going onbehind your back.
And it is severely traumatizing.
But what is even moretraumatizing
about findingout that your husband is gay?
I think for me, it's likethe foundation of my marriage

(42:48):
never had a chance,Karla never had the chance.
I put my whole heart
and soul into this,and even when it was difficult
and I didn't understandeverything
I said, you know what?
I made a vow to the Lord to lovethis person unconditionally
and so I'm going to hold upmy end of the deal.
So no matter what, I didn'twant to disappoint God, right?

(43:09):
It wasn'ttill I truly understood
that he didn't have a devil.
He might not have had a choiceon my on his sexual orientation.
That's debatable theologically.
Yeah a lot. Okay. All right.That's debatable.
But he always had a choiceto have integrity.
He always had a choice,to be honest.
We were alwaysa compassionate person.

(43:31):
We spent years and yearsin and out of therapy,
had he just been clearand told me that we could have
figured out a way to separate
and co-parentfrom truth and reality.
But what's really confusing isyour reality is here.
And meanwhilethere's a whole subset going on

(43:51):
and it's incrediblydysregulating.
Like I thought my reality was X,but my reality was Y
the entire time.
So what it meant to me is thevery foundation of my marriage
was null and void.
I never willingly got up thereand said, I do to a gay man.
Yeah, I never did,
but he knew who he wasand he married you anyway.

(44:14):
Yeah.
And put facadefor all those years and we,
we can say that or we can say
maybe he really didn'twant to be.
And it was something that he was
fighting that he really didn'twant to give in to.
That was, this, this, attractiondraw lust,
whatever you want to call it.
And he really wantedto be married and have a family.

(44:35):
And and that is the casein many, many, men's lives,
especially in the church,because it's, more taboo.
And you don't want to admitthat.
And it's looked on as a sin.
And you don't want to, admitthat and lose all your friends,
your family,
if that's the case
or you just don't you don't wantto be in that situation.

(44:57):
But at the same time,there is a fundamental, lie
that he chose to live with you,
but that is it's kind of likeripping everything away, right?
It's just, there'snothing that happened was true.
There was no like you said,there was no foundation at all.
There was no foundation.

(45:17):
So I spent by the time I left,I was almost 50, and I had given
24 years, most of my adult life,to something
that honestly, foundationally,never stood a chance.
Yeah, yeah.
No matter how much I love,no matter how much I gave.
Yeah. And so whatwas the grief process like?
For you?

(45:37):
Well, it's interestingbecause once once I got clarity.
Once, I mean,there were so many things
where many peoplewould have left sooner.
But once I saw
this whole in his handwriting,I've had sex with multiple men
risking my life and Heather's
to see that he thoughtso little of me to see that he's
so devalued methat he would do that

(45:58):
was, in a way,so clarity, that I felt like
I had to get out of jailfree card.
I could no longer
I no longerhad to say to myself,
I have to give everything
because I promised the Lordthat I would do this thing,
as I've grown in my faith,the Lord doesn't
call us to sacrifice yourselfon the altar of somebody.
Addiction, personalitydisorder, mental illness.

(46:21):
But that's what I was doing.
And when I reflect upon it nowfrom, a historical perspective,
being gay was almostthe least of his problems.
I mean, hehe was hugely compulsive.
He, used multiple, substances.
He, he had periods of acutedepression.
He, was angry and reactive.

(46:41):
There was, you know,there was so much
there was
it was a wholecluster of things.
It was a wholeit wasn't just being gay
and that closeted life.
It was it was mental illness.
It was,
addiction.
It was all of those things.
Each one of those maybe solvable, right?
But when you have the trifecta

(47:03):
that's going on and the oftenthe times there is a trifecta
when somebody is livinga double life, oftentimes
there is, a personalitydisorder, a substance use.
There's
there's a lot of other thingsgoing on when somebody is living
a double life.
And so one of the things,one of the problems
might have been solvable,but three of them together, just
until it just was not somethingthat.

(47:25):
Yeah.
So you kind of that,that kind of was
complete like okay,no options here.
So you knew that you hadno other choice than that,
which makes it easier. Yeah.
One of the hardest thingsis to go back and forth.
Should I,
I should I give him a chanceshould I not just
going to forgive him?
Is he going to be able
to get help for this.He also wasn't telling you

(47:47):
he wanted to get helpand change.
He was ready to goin that direction
and he was alreadymoving in that direction.
So that was it waskind of obviously over. So
now that you are a therapist
and have worked
with other women, in variousdysfunctional marriages,
what are some of the things
that you have recognizedand learned

(48:09):
about sexual addiction,whether it's with some gay,
men or not?
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned?
So, it's interestingbecause, sexual addiction
is caught up in pornography,are sort of marketed as like,
no one gets hurt.
I don't, you know, there'sno harm, no foul kind of thing.

(48:32):
It's a it's an option.
It's, it's it's marketedas a relatively harmless thing.
No. So I'll make this analogy.
Not everyone that drinkswine will become an alcoholic.
Not every man that views
pornographywill become sexually addicted.
But oftentimeswhen I'm working with a couple
and there's a sexual integrityor sexual addiction issue,

(48:55):
what we findis that it way predates
the marriage, often by a decade.
At least five,ten, 15 years way.
It predates the marriage.
What it does, itactually retrains the brain.
There's a lot of information now
on the rewardreinforcement center.
What happens to the brain?
It retrains the brain.
And so what happens to these

(49:16):
guys is they really becomeintimacy avoidant.
And I'm not just talkingphysical intimacy.
Emotional intimacy.
They're just notcapable of intimacy
because they have trainedtheir brain.
They've trained their sexuality
to respond toall of these rapid fire images.
And so I've literally sat withwomen that look like Beyonce,

(49:39):
that have the heart of, Mary,the mother of Jesus.
And their husbandswon't have sex with them.
Right? And they're so confused.
Right.
And I'm like, sweetheart,this way predates you
or your worthor your desirability.
They trained themselvesa long time ago
to meet that need in this very

(50:02):
if you think about itin kind of a selfish way.
I mean, when I usedto confront my husband,
because I saw pornography,he's like,
it has nothing to do with you.
And they really believe thatit has nothing to do with you.
You're still my spouse.
I still like you.Why do you think this
is anythingblah blah, blah, blah, blah.
But everybody does it.
Yeah. Think they minimize it.
Yeah.They minimize it constantly.

(50:22):
Meanwhile we feel likelike I'm dying on the vine.
I want sexual connection withyou and I want to feel intimate
and desirableand all these things.
And they meet that need outsidethe marriage with pornography.
And it also feels like cheatingbecause you don't even
have to have actual sexwith somebody.

(50:42):
You can just watchthe pornography, but pornography
and masturbateand but to a woman.
Well, and you know, we know thatwhen you're lusting after
somebody that is the same thingin God's eyes as having sex.
But so it is actual betrayal,
and it isn't ano big deal thing.

(51:03):
And it is.
And then, like yousaid, exactly.
The more that they aresexually addicted,
the less intimacythere is at any level in fact,
one of the waysthat you can tell
when you're in a marriagewith an addict that he's back
into actually, being involved init is he's going to pull away
kind of completely shut downemotionally, get more secretive,

(51:26):
get more distance.
And definitely
if you are having any sex, it's
going to shut downsexual relations.
But it's it islike I remember Mark Lazar,
who it was a sex addict.He's a therapist.
Christian therapist,faithful and true ministries.
And he went through,so much therapy and treatment

(51:46):
and and he is not triggerhe is not like in
been many, many years have beenat least probably 20 years.
And he said hehad them light up his, put,
electrodes on his brain
and they showed him, like,just not pornography,
but like, Victoria's secretskind of catalogs.

(52:07):
And his brainlit up in the pleasure center,
which is the same placein our brain that for sex
as cocaine, heroin,it's dopamine
receptors, primarily the,that was the the pleasure.
That's what allows you to feelthat pleasure.
His brain lit up, but his bodydidn't react because he had such

(52:28):
a strong retraining of hishis whole, mentality.
But his brain still respondedthat way.
The brain changes.
And we know from addictionthat it does change the brain.
So it's it's very itit is a very big deal.
It's incredibly disruptivefor marriages. Now.
There is a lot of awareness.

(52:49):
There's a lot of organizationsthat treat, sexual addiction.
There's a lot of organizationsfor wives.
There's a lot of
support out therefor both men and women, secular
and, in, you know, faithbased organizations.
So, there and I knowa lot of the women use my ten
principles to get helpand to kind of guide them

(53:11):
during those timesthat they're dealing with
the shock of finding outabout the sexual addiction
and trying to decideif they can put their marriages
back together.
And obviously,
there needsto be extensive treatment
and not just, I'll do betteror I'll quit.
it is some it's the same foran alcoholic or a drug addict

(53:33):
and more
because I have to go backto the roots of
when the emotional problemstarted,
when they have to go backto the roots
of when the, the sexualacting out or the first exposure
to pornography,which, sometimes is childhood.
The ten ageten, eight, ten, eleven.

(53:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so sometimesit's a coping mechanism.
And I've been using to manage
their painful emotionssince then, which is higher.
Right.
And and like you said, predatesyou and their marriage to you.
But at the same time,
so it takes extensive therapy,extensive support.

(54:14):
And I and I know that you,you have some strong opinions
about that. Please share them.
Well, I agree,and I, it's tough for women.
And I get it again,Christian women
tend to bemore self-sacrificing,
thinking that this is my crossto bear or something like that.
But at the end of the day,
you get what you require,you get what you require.

(54:36):
And no addict,whether it's alcohol, sex,
whatever,no addict is going to be.
Thank you so much, sweetheart,for requiring more of me.
There'susually a lot of pushback.
That's why
the woman herselfin this situation,
needs her own therapistor her own group of safe women
who understand what this isand understand that

(54:56):
if you're going to fightfor this marriage,
you're going to have to requirespecialized treatment,
and you're going to
you're going to have
to make a lot of requirementsfor them to get healthy.
Now, there are menwho can recover
from just from I'm going to say,just sex addiction, right.
I think it gets more complex
because

(55:17):
at least in my situation, itwasn't just a sexual addiction,
it was narcissism,which is a whole other thing.
Then it was undiagnosedbipolar disorder,
which caused, three suicideattempts in the time that I was
with my ex.
What one was.
Yeah.
I mean, so so it becomes likethis multilayered kind of thing.

(55:39):
And, quite honestly,I think that
maybe the church is changing,but maybe it's not.
I don't know,
I would say to any woman whosehusband is watching gay porn,
pretty muchyou're going to have to get out.
You'regoing to have to get it out.
It's going to break your heart.
It's not what you want,
and maybe it'snot what he wants,
but, one of the thingsthat helped me get out of

(55:59):
this is I stumbledon, Jewish lady out of New York
who was a Spitfire who ranfree groups for, for women.
And she had a number of books
called StraightWives Shattered Lives.
Right.
And there was so much shame andweirdness around the gay thing.

(56:19):
But she would offer freegroups each
so she would have one in Texas.
She would have onein California,
she would have onein Philadelphia.
And she had been marriedto a closeted gay guy.
And she had been on Oprah and
Sally Jessy Raphaeland all of that kind of stuff.
And she would get e-mails fromgay guys saying, well, I,
I don't really want to break upmy marriage.

(56:39):
Did it.
And,
and she would encouragethe gay men,
you have to be honestwith your wife.
You, married.You have to be real.
You have to dealwith the reality.
And the men that had
the most integrity would bethe ones
who would come to their wife andsay, I'm sorry, I can't go on.
I've been doing this.
And she would have respectfor that.
I have respect for that. Right.
But it was

(57:00):
a spitfire of a Jewish ladythat wasn't dealing with her
with a Christian centricoverview of keep
the marriage going at all costs,keep the marriage
going at all costs.
Because she's like,this dysfunction
trickles down to your children,
and this dysfunctionis not healthy for you.
This, you know,you can't do it anymore.
And so she was a Spitfire,this Jewish lady.

(57:21):
And almost all of the peoplewere evangelical Christian women
who were stuckin these marriages
thinkingI made a promise to God.
So I'm going to stick with it.
And she's like, no,you're dying.
You're dying.You got to get out.
And you know, what you're doingis terrible for your kids.
And and she had a master'sin counseling, but.
All of her services were free,but I had three of her books,
Straight Wives, Shattered Lives.

(57:41):
And it was likereading my own story.
In 15 different languages, 15different scenarios
where I'm like, I'mnot the only one.
I'm not crazybecause you feel you don't
trust yourself anymore. Totally.
How do they make theseterrible decisions?
I thought I was a smart person,what is going on?
And she would say in there,your your brain is a computer

(58:01):
and it's taking in informationand making,
it's making decisionsbased on information,
but you're being fed faulty
information consistentlyfrom somebody that you love.
So you don't evenput the filter out to screen
if it's faulty information,
but you're being fed faultyinformation
and making faulty decisions,and that's not your fault.
Yeah, that's very clear.

(58:23):
I love that that's empoweringand definitely compassionate.
What is her name?
Her name. She's deceased.
She died about, two years ago.
Her name is Bonnie Kaye.
So, Bonnie.And then it's k a y e.
She used to have, her booksand support
groups and everything available
right now,but her books are available.
Bonnie Kaye and it's StraightWives, Shattered Lives.

(58:44):
And there's volume one,two, three.
She's very helpful.
Too bad the groups aren'tstill available.
That would be awesome. Yeah.
Because and I would also,I would also say to women,
there was some tensionbetween Bonnie Kaye and, P flag
parentsand friends of Lesbian Gays,
which now there's anothersubgroup called Our Path.
And what some of these groupstry to do is say,

(59:05):
well,sexuality is on a continuum.
And I don't want to saythey outright encourage,
but they,
they, they're like,if you want to stay married
to a gay guy, do that.
You know, yoursis, your own path.
And so if you want tostay married to a gay guy,
go ahead and do that.
And Bonnie was like,no, you were shredding yourself,
and you're modelingterrible dysfunction.
Do not do that.

(59:26):
So there was some tension
between what Bonnie would sayand what these other
groups would say.
But when you're
trying to figure this out,this is a subset that you never
hear talked about.
And there's like millions.And she had stats on it.
There are millions of womenmarried to closeted gay guys.
And it happens also,she has women in Australia.

(59:47):
She had women in Saudi Arabia.
She had women in all thesedifferent countries.
But she would get together.
So there's a lot of differentcultural things against,
gay guys, it's
not just a Christian culture,but other cultural norms
and howto women navigate that. But,
she was she was
tough and a spitfire,and she would just look at your

(01:00:08):
in your face and be so blunt.
It was like almost appallingwhen you're used to a churchy
crowd like she's like, straightguys don't like dick.
They don't want to seesome of them other guys dick
straight guys. don't like Dick.I'm like, but it's true.
I remember thatyou told me that.
And you're like,you need to that.
That is what?
In fact, there was somebody thatI was counseling that wasn't

(01:00:28):
found out that a boyfriendthat they were dating
was watchingboth gay and heterosexual porn.
And you're like,tell her this and that.
It's like,okay, that's very clear.
Because because men that are notgay will not watch that stuff.
They won't they will not.
There's there is an almost

(01:00:48):
a repulsion just becausethey are heterosexual,
they're not going to engageunless they're just really,
really, a lot of degradationand, drugs and things like that.
But, so we're going to putthose resources and,
any others that you recommend,we're
going to put those in the notes.

(01:01:09):
So they will all be therewith links.
I'll be sureto get those, from you.
Do you think you've answeredthe question?
What signs indicate
that a man might be hidinga sexual attraction?
Yeah, I would.
I would say that
one of the things I was naive
about is if they're not havingsex with you,
they're having sex somewhere.
Yeah.
I mean,I was able to kind of like,
it it's a spiritualrelationship.

(01:01:30):
I would say, oh, he's got low T.Oh he's tired.
No, dudes want sex.Dudes in their 30s. 40s even.
But they want sex.
Yeah. My dude 70.He still wants sex.
Yeah.
Physiologically wrong,which is rare.
Right? Okay. Absolutely.
Which is rare.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So if he's not having sexwith you.
Yeah.
If he's having some kind of sexsomewhere.

(01:01:51):
I have even had womentell me, like, even in
second marriages
when they're older, like, oh,and and older and younger, like,
oh, what reallyattracted me to him was,
when we were dating
during our courtship, like,he never tried anything.
He he was just so justjust such a gentleman.
And I'm like, red flag like, right.

(01:02:14):
Like it should be.
And I'll tell them
maybe not even just for him,but even for you,
if you're very attractedand you're really like,
there should be a sexual likespark between the two of you,
and it should not be easynot to have
sex, especially for him,but also for you.
I mean, there should just bea lot of physical attraction.

(01:02:37):
And if that is not there,I'm sorry.
That is a red flag
and weird thing to say inChristian churches.
And I also told women,it's like you have
we havegot to get out of this idea
that you have so many womenwho will remarry a second time
after getting out of a tripterrifically long, traumatic,

(01:02:58):
narcissistic, dysfunctional,toxic, abusive marriage.
And then they're in their 50sand 60s and they remarry.
And it's this horrible marriage.
And and I'm like,please promise me.
Like if you get inand it's a lie,
like, he'snot who he said he was,
and you've got all thisdysfunction,
it's you've just got to get out.
You've got to like,look at it as an annulment.

(01:03:20):
Like,this was a terrible mistake.
I mean, it is based on falseevidence.
And just leaveand not get hooked into that.
Oh, my God, I have to stay.
I made my vowsand before God and like.
No, he lied.
Okay, exactly.
Exactly, exactly. Karla.
And that's like groundsfor annulment.

(01:03:40):
Just to be done.
He lied.
He gave you an idea thatyou were marrying somebody else.
And this is not somethingthat you have to stick with.
Like, just recognize thatbefore you do it and I.
Right? Yeah.
So I completely agree, Karla.
But one thingI'm going to add to
that is I knew 2012,like I got my information

(01:04:02):
that I had to leave, I createdmy plan and I left in 2013.
And even whileI was still married to him,
I went through divorce recovery.
Once I went through another year
of divorce, recoverypost divorce,
and I told myself, I'm goingto spend the next five years,
I might date.
But at firstI was terrified of men.
I said, I'm going to spendthe next five years

(01:04:24):
focused on me.
I'm I'm very frugal.
I'm going to spendmoney on therapy.
I'm going to spendmoney on eMDR.
I'm going to do everythingto recalibrate my life because
I didn't have a real marriage,and I want a real marriage.
And so I made the commitmentto myself
that I am going to spendthe next five years deploying

(01:04:46):
resources on recalibrating fromthat and recreating my life.
It's not too late.I was 50 when I left.
I married at 28, 29, okay.
And I saidI never had a real marriage.
That was that was a fake.
I want a real, authenticmarriage.
And I'm I'm happy to sayGod gave me that.

(01:05:06):
I've had a
completely redemptive,wonderful experience with Frank
where I feel cherished,I feel valued, I feel desired.
It's a completelydifferent experience.
But part of that is
spending the time, money,resources, energy on everything.
I could think of to heal, upfrom this catastrophe.

(01:05:27):
And you have to. It'sdeep, deep trauma.
But it's not only from thatmarriage,
it's also from your childhood.
And it's becoming.
It's like you've got to bea healthy, whole, healed person
in order to be attracted toa healthy, whole healed person.
Otherwise it's likelike attracts like, like we’re

(01:05:50):
typically not attractedto a healthy person
when we're unhealthyand when we're traumatized,
we're it's like,filling holes in a, a dam.
It's like you'rejust running around
filling holesand you're looking for something
that is filling the holes,and that isn't going to be
a healthy person, you know?
In fact,you know, a lot of times women.

(01:06:11):
But I,I remember when you were saying
when you were dating,you're like, okay,
I'm going to bring them aroundto all of you,
all of my friends,and you're going to tell me
if you think he's a narcissistand if he is, I'm dumping him.
So, it's like because you'rewe're attracted
to what we're used toand not somebody.
And oftentimesguys that are healthy
are you know,I tell women's like

(01:06:33):
like if he's boring, that mightjust be a really good thing.
That might be a good actually,
because that might meanthat he's
because there isn't a lot ofdrama and healthy relationships.
And womentell me all the time of my
healthy relationshipnow with my husband.
It's just it's not hard, right?
It's so easy, so easy.
And when you've been in onethat isn't, it's so hard

(01:06:57):
and you kind of expect, well,a relationship has to be hard.
It's like,no, no, not if it's not.
If you have two healthy people
who have skillsand are able to do that. So
what advicewould you give to women
who are married toor in a relationship with a man
who has a sexual addictionand or a gay attraction?

(01:07:20):
What would be your adviceto them,
especially likewhen they're thinking,
can this guy changeand what he has to do?
I know you said
you get what you askor you have to ask for a lot,
and I would add that you have toit sexual addiction.
You need just like somebodywho's a true addict, you need

(01:07:40):
12 step support group sponsor
or for to step
to stay in recovery.
And the same thingwith sexual addiction.
But what,
what should she be thinkingother than I know you said
she needs help and support too
what?
How can she filter out
what things are giving hergood advice and not good advice?

(01:08:03):
Yeah, that's tricky, isn't it?
Yeah,that's really, really tricky.
Especially for Christian women,because,
I have actually left messagesand some of the churches were,
it's well intended, to,mutual sacrifice
and loving unconditionally and,and some of these things.
But here's the thing.
Those messages are intendedto a general audience.

(01:08:24):
They're not intended to somebodythat's married to,
somebody that has severe
mental illness, personalitydisorders or addiction.
But what I find is mymy Christian women
will just try harder and harderwhen they hear a message
like that.
And, and
and I'm like the saying
that messageisn't really intended to you
because you're alreadyself-sacrificing.

(01:08:45):
You need the opposite.
You need to kind of createhealthy boundaries.
But but they hearthat self-sacrificing thing
and they take it.
And so they really need to care.
Messages tailored to if you havea sexually addicted spouse,
if you have a spouse's
mental illness or addiction,it's a whole other messaging
that is healthy and feels hardto set boundaries.

(01:09:07):
If you're not used to it,
it feels like
you're going to be accused
of being selfishor uncaring or unloving.
So that's whyyou need your support structure.
So you can hold the line,knowing that
making those healthyrequirements is actually
in the best interestof the marriage.
You're acting
in the best interests of himand the marriage
by making those healthyrequirements. Right.

(01:09:28):
And I would say from the pointof my adult children, there's
nothing more heartbreakingthan having your adult son
or your adult childcome and say, I want.
If you'd only left earlier,
my life trajectory would havebeen totally different
because we're always trying todo what is good for our family,
not understanding that they'rewatching the amount of nonsense

(01:09:50):
that we're toleratingand the amount of nonsense
that's going on and and nonsensedysfunction is again
that that, pot that's boiling
and it'sjust getting hotter and hotter
because we're just getting more
and moreused to the dysfunction.
And then our childrenare watching that.
Right?
So I remember saying toa friend who is dealing with,

(01:10:10):
divorcing aspouse who had bipolar disorder,
sometimes he was on medication,sometimes he wasn't.
And I remember saying to her,if I had to do it over again,
I would have leftso much sooner.
Because honestly, it's betterto have no dad
the dad out of the picturethan a super dysfunctional dad
that is is hurting your kidsin the dysfunction.

(01:10:32):
It's not their intent.
They're not like, heheheI want to hurt the kid usually.
But their dysfunction,their emotional reactivity,
the way they theythey model they can't model
emotional regulation skillsbecause they don't have them.
Exactly.
So so I would say it's betterto have no dad
than super dysfunctional.
That which is kind of counterto what a Christian message

(01:10:53):
typically would say. Soand then true.
And then I would say
there is hopefor sexually addicted spouses
if you tow that line and,
and treat it like alcoholism
or anyother compulsive disorder,
which is lifelong 12step accountability.
And you holding the line, right.
What gets really messy is,first of all,

(01:11:13):
sorryif you're married to somebody
who's watching any gay pornbecause you're going to have to
just face the truththat there isn't hope for that.
I'm sorry. That's whatthe little Jewish lady said.
And she was right.And it was freeing.
Don't buy the lie of the Kinseyscale and sexuality
being fluid and blahblah blah blah blah blah.
Yeah, save yourselfthe whole gay thing.

(01:11:35):
Just get out.Just get out. Yeah.
So it's a lot more complexif there is a sexual,
a sexual or any kind ofaddiction compulsive disorder
on top of narcissismor borderline or personality
disorder on top of depressionor bipolar disorder.
So when you've got layerafter layer after layer

(01:11:57):
after layer,and all of your life,
all your life force energy isjust kind of being sucked out
trying to manage this thing.
And actually you're
doing a disservice to your kidbecause you have almost no life
force energy, left for your kid
because you're just tryingto make everything okay 24/7.
And I think I never odds of thatgetting fixed

(01:12:17):
and getting better goessmaller and smaller and smaller
the more issuesthat you're dealing with.
Because already with narcissism,
you've got decreasedchance of change.
Bipolar is going to always bebipolar,
and it's always going to bemanaged with medication.
And they're very, prone
to stop taking their medicationwhen they feel better.

(01:12:38):
But, one of the thingsI would say to women
that I seeall the time is I have seen,
I have seen cases of menbeing incredibly repentant
and having a very soft heartand being very broken
and wanting to do anythingand everything to get better.
And it hasn't been the wifedragging them to treatment and

(01:13:01):
have you talk to your sponsor.
And are you still seeingthat recovery group?
What I see most of the time
is women doing their hard workas usual, right?
And they're doingall their stuff
and their husbandsare just giving lip service
to a recovery group
and sort of
going or not going, and they'renot really doing the work.

(01:13:23):
And what in those cases,the woman puts years
and years of her own recoveryin to trying
to forgive him for that,
because this is a forgivenessissue for the sexual addiction
and the betrayaland trying to rebuild trust
when he's doing very little.
And and I would say,and I know you would agree

(01:13:43):
in those cases, the chanceof the sexual addiction
getting healed and going awayis nil.
You know,
he has a true sexual addictionand he is not doing
heavy duty work.
And and that his heartis not soft to
you and it's not repentantand not grieving.
And he's not backingthat up with action.

(01:14:06):
It will not go away.
Bingo.
Yeah, Bingo.
Yeah. Save yourself.Save your children. Yeah.
I think that's a really goodnote of clarity for us to stop.
Okay.
I'm going to haveyou give me some resources.
So please
check the show notesbecause those are going to be
really good resources for you.
And now you'reyou don't have a website.

(01:14:28):
You're not doing taking, private
practice clients at this point.
So, she'sif I get a lot of notes
and a lot of requests,I might have her back on.
If you've got questions,I'll have her back on
to address those questions.
I think we've donea really good job here
of going through the gambit.
I mean, you have a very,really incredible story.

(01:14:49):
I fortunately got to be thereas you were working through it.
And I've got to watch youand your
your old life and your new life.
And I can't say
enough how happy I am to see you
with Frank in a fulfilling,happy, wonderful marriage.
He's a wonderful man.

(01:15:11):
You're doingeverything you've wanted to do.
You love travel.You guys are traveling together.
You can resolve conflict.You can talk about things.
You just. It's just.
It warms my heart to.
I had this little group of womenthat I know have gotten out
of bad
marriages, that have gotteninto wonderful marriages,
and I just I just look at themand I'm just so happy for them.

(01:15:33):
So, Thanks, Karla.
Well, I you're God used you in amighty way to get me there.
Yes. And so.
And you'realso a really fun beach friend.
Beach friend.
And I even got you to goin the water with me
in the cold Pacific. Yes, it.
Yeah.
So thank you again, Heather.
Thanks for the

(01:15:53):
take care of Karla.
Thank you so much for all youdo. Yeah.
So thank you for listeningand watching and I just
I please share thiswith your friends.
There's so many women out therethat need to hear this.
We want them to have hope.
But we wantedthat hope to be reality based.
So we hope you'll join ChangeMy Relationship next time.

(01:16:14):
God bless you.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribeto these podcasts
and share themwith your friends.
Karlawould love to hear from you.
She welcomes
ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helpedyour life and relationships.
You can email her at.

(01:16:35):
[e-mail]
For more information on
Change My Relationship and KarlaDowning's ministry,
including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.