Interview: Hope for Your Neurodiverse Marriage: Practical Skills to Change Your Interactions

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.

(00:29):
I'd like to welcome youto Change my Relationship podcast.
And I have with me todaykind of a combination.
I do interviews with expertsand with people who have worked through
a personal relationship struggleand kind of come out on the other end.
But Barbara Grant here todayqualifies for both of those.

(00:51):
So, she's a dedicatedneurodiverse couples coach
with both personaland professional expertise
in navigating the unique dynamicsof neurodiverse relationships.
She holds a master's degree in marriageand Family Therapy, and is a certified
autism specialist and neurodiversecouples coach.
Her coaching is grounded,grounded in her innovative roadmap to hope

(01:15):
and healing, which we are going to talkabout some today.
It's a research based, resultsdriven approach inspired by her own
experiences within neurodiversemarriage and family life.
She is passionateabout helping individuals and couples
heal, grow and determinethe sustainability of their relationships.

(01:36):
Barbarabrings empathy and insight to her work.
She's been featured on popular podcastssuch as Neurodiverse
Love Your Neurodiverse Relationshipwith Jodi Carlton
and the Neurodiverse Christian CouplesPodcast, and additionally,
she is the editor and a contributingauthor of Uniquely Us Gracefully
Navigating the Maze of NeurodiverseMarriage, autism, and Faith.

(02:00):
And I actually endorsed that book.
I believe there's an endorsement from,
Barbara currentlyco-hosts the Neurodiverse Couples Coaches
Corner podcast.
I. So we're going to talk at the endhow you can get,
in contact with herand find out more about her information.
But for now, Barbara, welcome.
Thank you so much, Karla.

(02:21):
And I'm such a big fan of your work,and so much of the work you've done
has really poured into my ministryand my coaching work.
So thanks to you for goingbefore me and opening your way.
Well,I love to hear that because it is honestly
a labor of love and dedication.
And so all you got to do.

(02:43):
I am a typeA driven person with who is a choleric.
And so when you tell me
that my work has made an impact,that's all I need to just boost me on.
I'm going.
Amen.
I can't wait to be on the receivingend of your hard work.
Okay, so we're going to start offwith just talking

(03:03):
about your marriageto a neuro diverse man.
Can you talks about that marriage?
Well, so we married,
gosh, a long time ago, I was he was older.
I was getting older.
And when I met him, he he liked Star Trek.
He was interesting.

(03:24):
He had a lot of interests. In, trivia.
And we were both living on the West Coast,but we were from back east.
We were living from areas aroundthe metropolitan New York area.
And, we had a lot in common,I thought, and, I thought we hit it off,
and we did actually, and getting,getting into marriage was fine.

(03:45):
He was often,
even in early stages of the marriage,watching television till late at night.
And I, this happylittle waiting in the bedroom bride,
was waiting for himand was a little kind of confused.
Like what?
What is not working here?
Like, why is TV more important than me?
But, we just kept moving forwardand, had children

(04:07):
and, there were,there were times in our marriage
where I just couldn't figure outwhere he was coming from at all.
And, I will say I was a very strongwilled woman.
I was very articulate, a bitlike you of the type A, let's get it done.
Bit driven and, very fast to process.
And he was a lot more deerin the headlights,

(04:29):
going into freezeinstead of fight or flight.
And even fawn, and, I always had the sensethat there was a lot
going on under the hoodthat he wasn't getting open about, that
not in a cheating or diabolical way,
but that there was he was holdinghis cards close to his vest.
And, I remember a time, even beforeour children were born, when his parents,

(04:52):
and I kind of challenged himon that dynamic of his.
And he was kind of mystified,
like he really didn't knowwhat we were talking about.
And we kind of just gave up tryingto help him
be more transparent in his life.
When we had kids,he was a wonderful, playful dad.
He was kind of like a big kid himselfin many ways.

(05:12):
That was really lovely for fathering.
But I, I often was morethe over functioning one.
The looking forward down the road onethe worrying about
how everything was balancingand whether it was balancing.
In fact, I was the one who really wantedto have kids.
He didn't regret having them,
but I rememberhe was already in his mid 40s

(05:34):
when I was ready to go for it,and he was like,
I don't know that I'm old enoughto have kids.
And I thought, I know.
I thought like, what are you waiting for?
I mean, you really don'twant to be 60 or 70 typically?
Well, so I think what, we didn'twe never figured out while we were married
that he was autistic and ADHD.

(05:55):
All right.
And what ended up happening is
he had a very successful career,which really fell apart on him.
The industry changed that he was
in, and his employer downsizedand he was a head that rolled.
And he also had lost his motherand then was losing his father,
and he kind of just went underground.
He he was in whatnow I know was autistic and ADHD burnout.

(06:21):
He had been living
beyond his ability to navigate and copewith a lot of things in life.
Parenting, husbanding.
the good thing about what happenedin that time of crisis
in our marriage is we did come to faith,we both, decided
to look up Jesus Christand make him our Lord and Savior.

(06:42):
And we got involved with the church.
That was very much about disciplingand accountability.
And we had couplesshepherding us for years.
That's nice.
but when that church kind of disbandedand fell apart and the leadership
moved out of the area,we were kind of without support.
And, we went to a new churchwhere the men were trying to help him

(07:05):
get back on the horseand kind of get with the program of life.
I was working full time.
I was juggling all the plates.
I was pretty much like a single parent,and I was becoming
extremely angry,bitter, afraid, resentful.
And I tell it's a bad joke,but I say, we did have it in common
that he kind of wanted to die,and I kind of wanted to kill him.

(07:28):
Oh, and that's,that's kind of where we were at.
I started backing offwhen the church kind of helped out to
to work with him, but he, for one reasonor another, he didn't move out.
He said, I just need time to sort ofI'm like, okay.
And it just never gelled.
He never came back into the marriage.
He's he just moved furtherand further out onto his own.

(07:51):
He, he wanted to separate our financesso that he could afford to
not just be in a rented room.
And when
when we learned in Californiathat financial separation
and divorce is almost the same process,except you don't end up
divorced, he basically said,well, let's just let's just.
End it and then I'm like, you know what?

(08:12):
I've been life supporting this.
I thought for so many years, like,okay, let's do that.
And it was such a sad ending, Karla, inthat I just didn't know what else to do.
I couldn'tfigure out why he wasn't showing up
and suiting up, and I was tired.
And I had kids that were now intheir teens and I was working full time.

(08:33):
the good thing about
our relationship waswe were always putting the kids first.
We were always devoted to the children.
And he was a good father, evenin the divorce and separation divorce.
And he's always been there for the kids,and I admire that in him.
And, I ended up getting remarriedand in his,

(08:55):
years after the the divorce,I finally had my son
diagnosed as being high functioning,what is now autism.
But back then, with Asperger's,they didn't catch his ADHD
at the time though they just backthen you could only have ADHD or autism.
You couldn't have both in the DSMor at that point I realized

(09:18):
that my first husband had beenis was ADHD and autistic,
but we had already moved towardspartnering more
when he was sick with cancerand some really depleted, health issues.
I was able to take him into the homeI lived in.
My kids and I took care of him,
and we always were like brother and sisterin Christ sexually.

(09:39):
When he met, the woman he then remarried.
He kind of invited meto have coffee with them,
and she and I just fell in lovewith each other.
And, to this day, it's been years.
We're on our 11th year of monthlyprayer calls.
Me and the two of them.
Wow. We are a threeway prayer warrior team,

(10:01):
and I call each other the
sister wives is kind of a joke,But it's like, well, you united in Christ.
And we've all had multiple marriagesand we've all given been given grace.
And so we are going to give graceand forgive.
And in the in the years since then,I've learned so much about autism
and ADHDbecause of my first husband, my kids.

(10:24):
And now I realized, oh my goodness,it was in my family of origin.
I it it my grandfather,my first cousin, my uncle.
I see a little bit of it in my sisters.
I think it's in my father's familybecause I have first cousins
who have contacted me.
They see what I post on Facebook and,they had they said,

(10:44):
oh, yes, here in the Czech Republic,we also are autistic.
I'm like, okay,so Karla was swimming in a sea of autism.
And when you say to a fish, what's water?
A fish is like,I don't know what you're talking about.
Well, I didn't, autism was familiar.
It was family.
It was the the airI breathe, the language I spoke.
So it was hard for me to discern.

(11:05):
It was something that differentbecause it was what I was used to.
That makes sense. Absolutely.
Well, your kids are really lucky to haveparents that can work that well together.
After a divorce.
That's like the ideal situation.
So that's wonderful.
But well, so that's a lot of people
that had autismor neurodiversity around you.

(11:28):
And we didn't get into the studies,but there is a genetic component there
80% plus. Yeah, definitely.
But the main reason it's the main reasonpeople are thought to be autistic.
Yeah.
Because it is just more and more running,
you know, in families like thatwhere you can see that so.
Well.
So you are a neurodiverse couples coach.

(11:52):
So what's differentabout being a neurodiverse couples coach
and just being a regular couples coach or.
Yeah, a therapist.
So, I kind of backed intothis whole thing.
I really did, I, was alreadya biblical counselor at church for years,
and I, I was running up against
my lack of understandingof psychological issues.

(12:15):
So I got a master's in marriageand family therapy.
And concurrent with that,I was having a lot
of relational challengesthat were with neurodivergent people.
And I found people who were ableto coach me in that relational situation.
And I learned that neurodiversity,
because of the, relational differences,the processing

(12:39):
differences, the sensitivitiesof a neurodivergent person,
the defensiveness oftenthey have rejection sensitive dysphoria.
They, they have a different ability,especially autistic people,
to have theory of mind.
Meaning they see their point of view.
The word autism comes from the Greek wordautos and autos is self self.

(13:02):
So automobile is a self movingcar, right?
Automatic automotive. Right. And
people
that are autistic see the worldthe way they see it,
they're self referencing,but they have a hard time understanding.
There are other points of viewthat are equally valid
and and can be entertained and considered,in especially in relationship, which is

(13:25):
I think why no matter what my in-lawsand I told my first husband didn't matter.
He just couldn't see it. Right?
Didn't see it, not because he didn'twant to, but because he couldn't.
Yes or no, I'm going to I'm going to.
I, I the natural tendencyis not to see it.
Okay. All right.

(13:45):
But there is an element of what I callmasking or shame.
Deflection or
fear that keeps peoplenot wanting to see it.
Yeah, that's our defensive ness.
Yes, because we did.
Everybody can be in denial.
Denial is an equal opportunity for life.

(14:06):
You can't have autism and be in denial,which is a complicating factor.
Right? It's a complicating factor.
And so anybody can be humble and teachablethat wants to be. Yes.
All right.
Because we don't believethat the Lord created people
to be
programedto just be doomed to their myopia.

(14:27):
I don't believe that at all. Okay.
And I know too many peoplethat are either autistic or ADHD or both,
or have other learning challengesthat have overcome that and are working.
You know, they're never goingto be the best relational.
They're going to have to work. Right?
Guess what?
Helen Kellerhad a lot of work to do in her life

(14:49):
that to communicate and think and learn
the way she did with all the strikesagainst her that she had.
Right. That good illustration. Absolutely.
So it's possible where there's a will,there's a way, and it isn't so much
about how good you get at it.
It's do you want to get better?
Are you curious?
Well, and I think it's really helpfulfor a spouse who's struggling

(15:11):
with all this to see even some willingnessto accept admit it.
Yeah.
And change it,even if it isn't going to make that person
like somebody that was a neurotypical.
So you still going to have some strugglesand maybe some limitations, right.
And that person is open.
And we have to also define that

(15:33):
because I work with coupleswhere both of them are autistic.
And you know what,
they have some executivefunctioning challenges and they may have
some needs to learn bettercommunication and problem resolution
simplybecause they're both in their own lanes
and they're not seeing each other'spoint of view easily,
but because they're both more independent

(15:55):
and have their own special interests,these people
get along great in many ways.
All right.
It's that there's nothing Iand I really want to make sure I say
this neurotypical does not mean we'renormal.
Neurotypicals are normaland neurodivergent people are abnormal.
That is not what that means.

(16:16):
Neurotypical is a statistical factthat more people
are in this place of non neurodiversity.
The the, you know, the main curvelike the average person,
the typical population is
neurotypical is not neurodivergent.
Neurodivergent is more different,just different.

(16:36):
I don't call it a disorder.
Okay, so the DSM five still does.
It is a wiring difference.
Okay, okay.
The people are often Stradivarius violins.
They are not banjos. Right.
And how a neurotypical partner
relates to her or his neurodiverse spouse

(16:58):
is importantfor that to get educated sure,
and my coaching is never aboutoh, let's make the one more like you.
It's like, no, oh, you're MandarinChinese, and this person is Swahili.
Let's learn to find a unified language,a unified understanding,
and midway point appropriate expectations.

(17:20):
Lean in.
Everybody has to grow and change.
Okay.
And too many people that I work with comewith other issues besides neurodiversity.
So true.
it's a complicating issue,but it's not the only issue involved.
Exactlythat which makes it. Yeah, definitely.
So you're saying that without a doubt,if there is a neurodiverse partner

(17:46):
that wants to learnabout their neurodiversity
and is going to understandthat they are self referencing
and that they tend to only see their self,what is it take?
Can they self trigger to listento, to tell themselves,
oh, I need to listen to my spousesso they can do that.

(18:08):
They can learn to self trigger themselvesto be aware.
Yes, I know that by asking questions, byhow do they do that?
Well, sometimes they might need a prompt
that they're missing something okay.
All right.
And so my coaching is built on the factthat we all have neuroplastic brains.

(18:32):
Karla. Okay.
God made the human beingthe most adaptable creature on the planet.
We have proven over millenniathat we can live in ice ages.
We can live in deserts.We can live on water.
We can live in jungles.We can live on mountaintops.
We can live in war zones.We can live in drought.
We can live, and forge new.

(18:53):
We can cross oceans. We can find our way.
Like our brainsare outstandingly learning machines.
If we know how to use them.
All right.
So the brain is you and I are the way we are.
We could say, well,that's just the way I am.
And you saying I'm a Type-A.
Well, that's the way you're behavingright now based on a lot of programing.

(19:18):
True.
All right.
And when we're little,we start getting programed.
We see things. We don't know anything.
We're like a blank motherboardcoming into the world.
And how our parents treat us,how our caregivers handles
our siblings,what the world tells us about ourselves.
This is where attachment issuesdevelop or attachment styles, form

(19:39):
and patterns of behavior,patterns of thinking, a truth, believing
certain things, feeling a feelingwith that, and acting in that.
I call that a data set because whatyou think, what you feel and what you do,
and if you do the same thing,what thought, feeling and behavior?
Oh, repeatedly.

(20:00):
Our brain is an automation machine.
Our brain is going to go,oh, that's he's creating a habit here.
Let's program that.
So it now builds neural synaptic networks
that are housing that actthat that pattern.
And I know this because, for instance,I'll be at church Sunday morning,
I come out of church, I'm like,
I need to go get eggsso I can do my baking this afternoon.

(20:24):
And I start talkingand I'm listening to music.
And where do I end up? In my driveway?
Because I'm running the
drive home program,not the go get eggs program.
All right, so for me to get eggs,I have to put something on my dashboard
that we're looking at it at
several of the stoplights coming up to go,okay, keep going to the same site.

(20:45):
The older we get that, the more we do that
automatic programand forget those things. So.
Well, yes or no?
Yes or nobecause the brain is neuroplasticity
till we die unless we have a real braininjury or a brain problem.
All right.
And this,this saying, oh, you can teach an old dog
that's completenonsense is complete nonsense.

(21:08):
All right.
Because some of the most aliveand learning people on the planet
are in their decades of 80s and even 90s.
I myself, I'm going to be 68.
I've just finished my master's degree.
I've got a whole new career going.I'm helping my books.
I mean, I this is not what I was doingten years ago.
It's all new to me and I'm prettygeared up to keep learning and growing.

(21:29):
But I understand that in orderto do something new
and make a new, better behavior my habit,
I have to first identify the old habitI want to stop,
and I can’t actually erase that program,or I can only program over it.
I can only, you know,get a bug fix and make a new program.

(21:49):
And then when my brain sees that I haveboth things that I'm doing, it'll go well.
She know she hasshe shouldn't have an auto pilot.
She's she's got an option for meto keep making the new behavior my habit.
I have to practice itbecause practice does not make perfect.
It makes it permanent. Yeah.
And in time, I am going to do this thing.

(22:13):
If I want to buy eggs every Sunday.
I would end up in the parkinglot of Safeway, not in my driveway.
Even if I wanted to be in my driveway.
Understood.
Okay.
So we're talking a little bit
kind of a little bitabout the things that are included, I'm
sure, in your roadmap to hope and healing,which is for couples and individuals

(22:36):
wanting to make their neurodiverserelationship better.
Yeah.
And one of the things that you have onthere is to give grace and space.
Yeah. What is that,
well, grace and space.
It seems to methat when couples come in to coaching
and I was this way in my marriage,I was like, fit to be tied.

(22:56):
Like, you know, he wanted to dieand I wanted to kill him.
There was peopleare just so at odds and so raw
and so not able to productively teampretty much on anything.
And one wants to blame the other,
and no one wants to really seewhat the log is in their own eye.
And so I am encouraging people.

(23:17):
In fact, I don't work with them together.
They start separately in my coaching
because the neurotypicalhas a whole lot of things to learn
that are very different than whatthe neurodiverse person has to learn.
And I have to figure out what each of themare all about, and they have to
both trust me and I have to start beingtranslator for the two of them, all right?

(23:38):
And I want them to calm down, get in theirown lane, take the log out of their own.
I figure out what, of all the things,self-care,
setting your own goals for growth.
Understanding your neuro
profile, understanding the others,understanding what the damage has been.
Understanding if there's past traumaand attachment stuff you each need to deal
with separatelythat had been brought into the marriage.

(24:00):
Learning how to be self-controlled,how to do somatic body
exercises, how to calm down right,and also learning
that you're responsiblefor your emotional behavior outbursts.
Nobody makes somebody abusiveor sinful in their anger.
And anger is not a sin, right?

(24:21):
We can sin in our anger, right?
So and also learning about boundarieswhich so far, nobody coming into coaching
that I've worked with has ever said, oh,I totally have boundaries figured out.
They said, oh, I've read this book,or I've read that book, and I'm like,
takeouts are not work.
Yeah, the book is one thing.

(24:42):
Applying it is another. Exactly. Right?
So so that's whyI put them in their own track.
And what I ask them to do is, listen,you are not equipped right now
to talk about anything importantwith the other.
You cannot solve problems.
If you could, you wouldn't be in coaching.
Very true.
You don't have the tools,you don't have the bandwidth emotionally.

(25:04):
You don't have the understanding.
You don't know hownot to make your own mistakes.
You don't know how not to get triggered.
You don't know how to not trigger them.
So right now, other than asking,what you wanted the grocery store?
What time should I have dinner ready?
Or some very logistic things.
I really don't want couplestaking on big, weighty things

(25:26):
like buying a houseor building an addition in the backyard.
Or like
this is not the time to do that coachingor trying even to fix their relationship.
No failed attemptsthat they've done in the past.
Exactly.
We need to take a timeout
and everybody needs to give themselvesand the other space.
And grace and and compassion for self

(25:46):
and other and lean in to hopefulness.
Right and right.
Right thereCarla. When couples stop fighting
and get calm down
the atmosphere clears andand they because many of them do want
what's best they want to be better andthey want the other person to feel better.

(26:08):
And it's now we're startingto accent the positive lift up
what's going well, celebrate the good.
See the good right?
Which is oftennot seen when you're in the midst of.
Exactly. Struggles.
Exactly.
You just see the badand the other is the enemy.
You're an enemy mode, right?
So, that's what space and Grace is about.

(26:30):
And ideally, space and gracebecomes a habit for each of them
that they can take into all the marriagecoming ahead of them,
all their relationshipswith all their relationships,
grace and spacefor all of our relationships.
That's exactly right.
And I love it that you said that,because though I’m coaching for this

(26:51):
relationship of theirs is marriage.
I tell them, I say, look,if you get involved with what I teach you,
you will be a better relationship person360 degrees.
You'll be a better parent,
a better daughter, a better employee,a better boss, a better neighbor.
You'll just be betterbecause you'll understand
what's healthy in relationshipand what's not.

(27:13):
Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's really good.
And then you talk.
You did mention, self-careand self-control.
You elaborated a little bit on that.
So I want to jump to having yougo into a little bit more about conquering
shame and blame.
Okay.
So, I believe that shade of blame
is the deepwound of the entire human race.

(27:34):
Yeah. All right. When I'm from sin.
Well, it does, it does.
It comes from our response to sin, youknow, because notice that in the garden,
when they when they fell into shameand fear and hiding.
Yeah,they kind of forgot who God really was.
And nobody said, hey,you know, he's a good father.

(27:55):
He's been a great guy.
Let's just go and tell him what happenedand see if he can fix this.
Oh, they lied, but what? I mean.
But it didn't even occur to themthat they could say they're sorry, right?
Nobody apologizes in the Garden of Eden.
And and God is like,hey, guys, I'm in the grace business.
I'm here. See?
But you're not asking for that.

(28:16):
You're blaming each otherand so blame Karla
is the, like where there's smoke,there's a fire.
You know,where there's blame, there's shame.
Blame is what we throw when we feel shame.
Absolutely right.
We I love that that's what they want.
So we can remember that.

(28:36):
So if if I'm blaming
and I don't want to say well okayshe has a lot of problems but
I'm the husband or
he has a lot of problems, but I'm the wifeI need to look at what I'm doing.
Yeah, I need to take responsibility
for what I can controlbecause I can’t control what he is doing,
and I don't have to shame him,and I don't have to be shamed.

(29:00):
So part of space and grace is stopshaming each other,
stop blaming and shaming each other.
And that shame won't is a habit.
Yes, it's a deep, deep habit for somepeople, especially neurodivergent people,
because they've been in hidingand fear a good part of their lives.
Yeah, right.
they learned at a young age,I'm a little different.

(29:22):
And somehow they get the vibe, like,get better,
not tell anybody about this,and I better act.
I better maskbetter get my fig leafs on in place.
And if somebody comes looking underneathmy I'm like, no, everything's fine.
There's nothing here.
These are not the droidsyou're looking for or whatever.
So you want toyou want to help them both.

(29:45):
Look at that part.
And that component does make things worse.
And both peopleare dealing with their own shame,
because we all have layers of shamefrom our childhood
and our prior relationship experiences in so many different layers.
So I think that's that'sabsolutely wonderful.

(30:06):
Another goal that you talk about isand this is all written out for people on
your website and at the end will tell themhow to go access this and look at it.
Another goal is perspective taking.
I think you talked a little bitabout that at beginning, where you've kind
of got to understand where the otherperson is coming from. But

(30:26):
can this help?
Also,if only the neurotypical partner does it,
what if the neurodiverse partnerisn't able or willing
to look at the other person's perspective?
Does it help if there's only one?
Absolutely.
And that's a big I do actually.
My my largest client baseare usually the neurotypical women

(30:50):
whose husbands eitherdon't want to come into coaching or,
aren't aren't are only interestedin a little help, but not where it can go
the other way, though sometimesI just work with the autistic people
and they are incredibly dedicated,and their neurotypical partners have like,
dismissed them and left them or whatever.
So perspective taking a lot of perspective

(31:14):
taking ishow the information is given to us.
All right.
So if it's given with shame and blameand anger, nobody is open to hearing that.
Everybody is going to be, on the defensive.
They're in enemy mode, right?
Automatically shut. Right.
So a lot of what I have to teach,even the neurotypical or whoever
wants to learn, ishow to say how to speak the truth in love.

(31:37):
And I have this whole thing, the boundary
love sandwich,where we say something loving,
we cite them on something,we say something loving.
We invite them to a different behaviorand we love them again.
So lots of love.
I say don't even verbally say this.
Send it in a text
with a lot of love, little heartsall over it so they think it's good news.
It is good news, okay.

(31:58):
It's a lot of affirmation.
And then, you know, a simple ask
without it being an accusation, all right.
But it has to be done. Well.
And this is what I teach the one ifthere was only one partner in the country.
So you have to learnhow to be a good communicator.
You have to learn to listen and validate,and then you have to speak

(32:19):
clearly Not 29 sentencesbut two and see if they're tracking.
We do a lot of active listening.
Right?
So if I'm saying several things,even to an autistic client,
I will stop and say, so mirror back to mewhat that meant to you.
Let's see if I said it in a way thatyou understand what I'm trying to say,

(32:42):
because I might have said it wrongand it can mirror back to me.
Then I can go, oh, okay, great.
So let me build on that nowand I can give them more information.
Perspectivetaking is a lot about communication.
It's just a lot.
And there needs to bea lot of good communication
because like Helen Keller needed brailleand specific hand.

(33:04):
she needed certain kinds of communicationor she wasn't getting it.
And, we have to learn to help
each other and get on each other'scommunication wavelength better.
So and then I love that boundary so much.
I, I teach a class on boundaries, too,as you know.
So I'm really big on boundaries.
But I like that idea.
And I think I did thatwithout even knowing that you taught that.

(33:27):
Yeah.
The other day with my husband, we've got aa senile dog, little pup, little dog,
the rat terrier about 15 pounds.
And is on the bed.
My husband gets up earlyand then he goes about his business.
But the dog will wake me too earlybecause I stay up late.
So I'm like, please, when you get up,just take the dog out

(33:48):
to go to the bathroomso that he won't wake me up.
Like right after you leave.
And so he does it.
But he lets the dog walk back
with the nails on the floor into the room,which wakes me up anyway.
So I was annoyed,
but I went up to himand I put my arms nicely around him.

(34:12):
I looked at him about this far awayand I said, thank you
for doing such a great jobtaking the dog out every morning.
Could you just do one extra thing?
Could you please carry himback into the bedroom
so he doesn't wake me upwith his nails on the floor?
And he said, okay, I'll try.

(34:33):
I'll really try to do better with that.
If there's this.
Perfect. Yeah.
if you had thrown a pillow and yelledand said, you idiot, can't you understand?
Like that's not going to getyou like more flies or not?
And then he said, well,I'm not going to stand at the door
and wait for him and I do.
I would stand at the doorand wait for him. Okay.

(34:55):
But I didn't say, oh, well,that's the problem.
you don't have the right mindset.
You're not willing to stand at the doorand wait for him.
I just said,
well, could you just try to make surethat you carry him into the room?
And so it went, I love it.It went so well.
Now, not guaranteed to always gowell depends on the content,
but it's going to go a whole lotbetter with anyone if you do it that way.

(35:19):
I think so then yeah, an accusationor a demand or a criticism with a demand.
Absolutely.
And different issueshave to be handled differently.
The more upset I am, the more carefulI need to be
in how I frame up what I want to sayand sometimes wait.
I mean, oh, waiting is great.

(35:40):
Waiting is really like,not just count to ten.
Like count to 300, count to seven days.
I mean, like count.
Take your time. I'm excited about it.
Yeah, exactly.
And we have the scripture that, you know,a lot of scriptures mess Christians
up, as I'm sure you know,and I do a lot of my teaching on,
you know, practicing misunderstandingsabout scriptures
because we just tend to take oneand we make this big dogma about it.

(36:03):
You know, thatwe rigidly have to apply it.
And that whole idea about,
be angry and sin not don'tlet the sun go down in your wrath.
I mean, I wrote
one of my devotionals about this,and I was just like, wait a minute.
That doesn't mean that itit means don't make a habit of
just stuffing everythingand never dealing with it.
But, I gave an example that it happenedin my relationship where my husband and I

(36:25):
hit heads over somethingand we were both upset, and it was.
But the next day, afterI thought it through,
I had a different wayof how I wanted to approach it with him,
and I did it in a really wise way,
and he just went, oh, okay.
And the night before

(36:46):
we would have gone to bed with a big fightbecause I could tell that it was
it was a stress pointthat had come up, actually about his dad.
And, that tended to be heated up, withthings that had to do with that situation.
And I was just like,no, I'm, I'm not in a place right now.
And he also got when you goright before he goes to bed
and he's like,don't bring up problems right before me.

(37:07):
Yeah,well need to be real careful about that.
So it's like that was
absolutelythe wrong thing to do was to say
I have people who tell me, oh no, I,we have to we have to talk about it.
I always think of,,I always think of the son as being, the
we we are so not the ancient peoplethat the Bible was written to

(37:30):
when Jesus was speaking to it,because everyone functioned
when in the light of daythey could do things, and then at night
there was no electricity,so you couldn't do much.
Right?
So the idea of doing things in the light
means do things when you see clearly,when the sun is up,
when you have the wherewithaland the clarity and the faculty

(37:51):
to deal with things,then we should deal with them.
But as the sun goes down, meaning you'relosing bandwidth, you're losing patience,
you're losing emotional regulation,you're losing cognitive clarity.
This is that. You're in the dark.
You're already in the dark.
It's not about what time of day it is.
It's just
yeah, it's not about shoving it inbecause it has to be done

(38:15):
now really about, and there's
so many scriptures in the Biblethat would give you other options.
Yeah.
There's like, to be silent
and to, not confront a fool
because you'll be like a fooland all kinds of different things.
So it's like we havea whole resource of things
that can help, that help us to be wise,but we have to be discerning.

(38:37):
I always say, you can.
You can have the wisdom of what is right
and what is wrongand what is good and not so good, but
you got to have a whole lot of discernmentof how to walk that out.
Yeah. And and that takes really.
But first you got to knowthat you don't have to apply those things
rigidly in order to be discerning.

(39:00):
So I mean, and part of what you're doingis you're teaching couples
to be discerning about themselvesand about the, about each other.
That sounds likeyou teach a lot of skills.
Well,
that and you I love working with Christian
and couples and believersbecause they have an extra lever to pull.
That would be Jesus Christ.

(39:20):
And frankly, I struggle to work
with couplesthat don't have that framework.
And, and one of the thingsI want to say about the Lord
being part of the equation ishe is the equation.
I mean, we we often when we get married
in this country,we have this unrealistic expectation.

(39:40):
The other is going to complete me,which is totally idolatry.
When God completesus, God made us for him.
We're made for unity with the Trinityforever.
He's our forever person,
and he's loaned us out on earthhere to learn a few things.
Learn about him, learn about each other,bless some people Yes.
Enjoy.

(40:01):
Marriage has a special unityof and special relationship.
But too many people especially.
And they happily ever Disneyesquelandscape of America, right
our thinking, oh, my spouse has to be myeverything and they lose themselves
in their identityand they don't stand on the rock.
Right?
And you've got two drowning peopleusing each other as flotation devices.

(40:24):
Well and then we add into itthe misunderstanding from Christians
often that, well, we're going to be one,which means we lose
the duality,which is absolutely not true.
We are individuals first who are married
and there is a special thing

(40:45):
about that connectionand about that union.
However, we are still individuals
with individual responsibility,individual choice, individual feelings,
and it all has to betaken into consideration
and if we think that we have to be onethat is going to make your problems,
it's impossible,then that's an impossible.

(41:07):
If that's a doomed to failure situation,unless you're happily enmeshed
and codependent and loving brawlingand this is how it go.
And neurodiversecouples, have an extra opportunity,
I think because for them to do itwell, it does help them so much
more to stand on the word as their sourceand their identity,

(41:27):
especially if you're given to shamebecause there is no condemnation
for those who are in Christ.
Yeah, so only bringing downthe grace of God into your life
and walking in it in a way that you,not that you can't do any wrong.
Yeah, I can, I can, but I can admitmy wrong because there's forgiveness.
Yeah, I'm not

(41:48):
I don't have a problem with saying,oh, boy, I really screwed that up.
Yeah.
I mean, God
does not want us to walk in shame and insome people have a shame based faith
where they think God is the father goingyou, you, you, you, you did wrong.
And it's like you're messing up,you're not doing good.
And but that's the opposite. Yeah.
So yeah.
It’s filled with grace, whatand what you're describing, I see a lot

(42:11):
in the rules basedthinking of neurodiverse people.
The autistic mindset isthey write the rules, they learn
about their faith based on the rulesthey think they're following.
And theythey want everybody to follow the rules.
They're going to, of course,their own interpretation.
But it's not a relational understandthing of God or it's, based on law.

(42:31):
Right? It's not based on grace.
So I might not dothe things I love doing is helping people
that are in that mindsetcross over into Grace.
Karla.
It's like they're learningabout the gospel for the first time.
Yeah. And, that's very powerful.
And again, if you don't have the gospelto learn about
and you're just trying to learndifferent skills and new rules,

(42:54):
that's kind of window dressing and maybeeven deckchair arranging on the Titanic.
I know that's not going to transforma mind, a heart, a soul.
Yeah.
And and help them really be contentand enough and open enough to be curious
and growth.
So and when you talked about,well I think I'm going to go to that next,
but you talk about neuro teaching themneurodiverse communication strategies.

(43:19):
What does that involvethat you haven't already covered?
I think it first of all,
it starts with, again,owning about how just shooting out
your message has on eitherside has just been a disaster.
Screaming at each other in two differentlanguages.
It's just a lot of screamingand no progress. Right?

(43:40):
So it's really an unlearningof that reflex
of I'm frustrated, I can open my mouthand say what I want to say.
That's like, forget that, okay.
All right.
And it's about taking your thoughtscaptive and and working through
what do you really feeland what do you really want to communicate
and why are you communicatingbecause it solves a problem?

(44:01):
Or you want to blame somebody
or shame them, or you feelyou have to get your need met
and you have not consideredother ways to get that need met.
Maybe this person isn't availableto meet that need, right?
Maybe they have limits and you need to gobuild a joy team of people in your life.
That can love on youand also be your people

(44:22):
that you're gettingyour relational needs met so that you are
coming to your marriage with overflow,not scarcity, right?
Of relational experience.
So I just think it's a, it's a differentmath that we're doing, and the skills
follow from the understandingthat you can't make any assumptions.
We all have to be curious,not thinking we know it

(44:45):
and it, and calming it downand affirming the good in them.
Looking at each of them is, a goal.
An eight ounce glass of water,maybe only got four ounces.
But looking at those four ounces as well,we are half full.
Yeah, not half emptyand having a positive mindset and not.
And also noticing
how we interpret things

(45:07):
because if we are insecureand shame based,
you know, likeI interpreted the young bride
that I was frisky in the bedroomwaiting for my husband,
I interpreted his late nighttelevision viewing as total rejection.
Yeah. And humiliation. Right.
And he interpreted itas I need time to wind down.

(45:29):
This is my alonetime, as is my self-care time.
He didn't know that he was autisticand he needed that,
but that's what he was doing.
He was taking care of him,
and he wasn't ready to relationally joinwith me
in a way that I would have foundsatisfying really anyway.
Right.
And the sex part of this is a whole other.

(45:51):
But that was a whole other podcast.
We should probably talk about thatsometime, because I know
sex addiction is just, I,I continually hear that couples,
when women talk to me about their husbandsthat have ASD, that
they also have sex addictionand it just or, and or ADHD.

(46:12):
So it tends oh yeah, the the ADHD
brain and more more the ADHD brain.
But then the autistic brain isis serotonin short?
Yeah.
And there is a serotonin seekingof the hit, dopamine hit, a to addiction.
Yeah. It's dope. Dopamine short to.
And so there's and because there's a lack

(46:35):
of executivefunctioning that and reasoning ability
they can be very impulsive ADHD peopleand just without even thinking go for it.
And they and they form habits in,
in the amygdala hippocampusthey're very primal habits.
So sex is a very primal thing.
And when you start bondingwith sexual experiences

(46:55):
at age 12 or so and you're doing porn,you are now bonding
with the idea of women in an object way,not in a relational way.
But this is a self-serving pursuitthat plays right into some of the
preferences or the natural inclinationsof a neurodivergent mind.

(47:17):
Right?
But anybody can be addicted.
Anybody can be addicted to anything.
So I don't and I think porn is an epidemicin our culture of men in general.
It is, you know, it's really what's wrongwith American culture is porn.
But it's the bottom line in my book.
Yeah.
So, and it's unmaskedand nobody talks about it.

(47:38):
And technology is just enablemaking it worse.
Yeah.
You can be under in youngerbecause, if they're even kid
they and I know my daughter went datinghad trouble
finding men that she date themand think they were really nice.
And almost every single one of themwhen they got
she got closer, would have to admit,
hey, I watch porn and it'skind of an addiction.

(48:01):
And I was like, oh my gosh, like,this is a really this is a big thing.
This is not a minor thing.
This really affects the relationship.
Along those lines, I will say that,if anyone wants to look up the
I believe it was the August podcast seriesthat Doctor Stephanie
Holmes and Dan did with the neurodiverseChristian couples.
They had four amazing segments, all about

(48:22):
porn and, men speaking about it, womenspeaking about it.
In very, very helpful wayswith the slant towards neurodivergent.
Andrew Bauman was onthere is amazing Christian counseling.
I'll go ahead and link to thosein the notes since you brought them up.
I look for them.
If I have trouble finding themI’ll as you to give me the links.
But, I should be able to find them.

(48:44):
That way people can look at.
Because that's. Yeah, that comes up.
Yeah, that's solid gold stuff.
And and I do, I ask both men and the women
because it,it might be the behavior of one.
But there again needs to bean understanding on the,
on the partner's part ofhow did this addiction evolve.

(49:04):
It's not just a betrayal of her. Right.
that's if we would personalize and feelvictimized and wounded and love a lot.
But it is a very, intrinsic.
It's just so, deeply intertwinedand with so many issues
that the neurodivergent person is having
and it is possible for them to own

(49:25):
it, repent of it,go cold turkey, start feeling better
because it turns out porn sucksthe life out of men.
It sucks all the energy.
I'll send youa it's called the Great Porn Experiment.
It was a Ted talk, and,this dude, he's now passed.
He was a real sort of dictionaryand forerunner
of the problem of porn years ago.

(49:46):
I think I might have seen that.
You might have. It's been around.
And he talks about how debilitating it is.
It causes erectile dysfunction.
Viagra was one of the topselling drugs in the country.
What a why.
Yeah, right.
So, yeah. I think I did see that.
So now you have a couple other roadmaps,that I find interesting.

(50:10):
One is we're not going to,
like, go into them,but I want just to kind of like,
look at thewhy do you have the different ones?
Do you have a roadmap to joythat you say is for individuals?
Yeah. Who's that for?
That is mostly
people who are realizingtheir partner is M.I.A.
In terms of working with them,
and they may not be surethat the relationship's going to last.

(50:33):
So they have to now do the workthey need to do to be healthy,
and to healand to find joy in their life.
Okay.
And then many people have youngchildren or children.
They don't want to leave the marriage
or there's a financial situationthat they can't leave the marriage.
So how do you get in your own lane andbuild your joy team and stay well enough?

(50:56):
How not to allow more abuse?
How not to have that be a fool and arguewith a fool according to his folly?
How to set expectations.
How to grieve your losses?
Yes, cry the tears you need to.
Dealing with reality, right?
Because I love that Lysa
Terkeurst new book that she came outwith the good boundaries and goodbyes

(51:17):
and throughout that herher counselor for years was telling her.
Lisa, mental health is a commitmentto reality at all costs.
And it was only when she finally dealtwith the problem
of who her spouse had been after 30 yearsthat she left her marriage.
Yeah. She had to deal with the reality.
Right. So learning how not to be afraid.

(51:37):
Yeah. To know how to swim,not learning it.
You know what's somethingI realized about swimming, Karla?
I remember when I was in third grade,I did not know how to swim.
I knew how to fake that.
I knew how to swim,but I didn't know how to swim.
And I remember the day I learnedthat I could put my face in the water,
point my arms forward, and push offand glide on the surface and kick.

(52:02):
And then I learned to paddle,and I learned to do the doggy paddle.
And I learned to swim.
And do you know thatwhen somebody learns to swim,
they can never unlearn that, right?
Yeah.
They can't unlearn.
It's like when you ride a bicycle,
you learn the balanceand you learn what it takes.
And if you're dealing with all the same,variables, you can ride a bicycle.

(52:24):
So that's what I ask.
The balance and the swimming metaphor.
It's like once you learnthat you're going to be okay.
And that's the same thing that I teach
when I teach my ten lifesaving principlesto women in difficult marriages
and to anyone in a difficult relationship,
child, grandparent, sibling, exspouse,
we can learn skills to not react in waysthat make it worse for us.

(52:49):
We can learn to take care of ourself.
We can learn to detach.
And I do all those things to reachso many women I send.
I tell them all about your book, yeah,I love your book,
I do, I do,and the detach in love chapter is.
It's fabulous.
I mean, that's one of the top onesthey have to embrace.
And, you know,I have a 365 day devotional now I do

(53:12):
I haven't myself gone into it,but it's fabulously good.
It's really it's a way ofjust giving little tidbits of,
of tips and truth that you can grasp onand apply for that day.
And like you talking about it,then everything starts to become habit.
So and the last one that you haveis a roadmap to discernment.
So tell us what that's about.

(53:34):
Well discernment is dowe want to be married?
We are married.Do we want to stay married?
Do we want to separatewhat needs to happen and this is a lot
where some couples are aftermaybe even trying
to do neurodiverse coaching or otherways of healing, and they still can't get

(53:54):
where they want to get to,but they respect each other enough
and they want to have a healthyor good divorce
or a sober divorce wherethey're not just reacting and, at war.
And they want to thoughtfullytake it step by step and,
and really evaluatewhether or not that's that
is the best option,because there are other people involved.

(54:17):
There's family members, there's kids,
there's lifelong friends,there's finances that are intertwined.
All right.
There's legal considerations,there's practical considerations.
And who's going to do what
with the kids of where and family housesand vacations and timeshares?
There's so much to considerthat is worthy of, if a couple

(54:39):
and I do believe there are some marriagesthat shouldn't continue, I do.
A marriage for marriagesake is not God honoring.
Oh no, I get that wrong too.
Yeah, and and God does not hate divorce.
I mean, Gretchen Baskerville has writtena whole book
about the life saving divorce,and she says that I mistranslated,
Malachi 2 or Malachi 2:16.

(55:00):
Yeah, it's it's not that Godhates divorce.
It's God hates the violencethat is done in the marriage. Yes.
And in that context,he was talking about the men
and especially the men that were leavingand abandoning their wives
to nothing but potentially prostitutionor going home.
Right.
Went off with another younger womanthat they wanted to be with,

(55:21):
and that was treating them very violentlyand very disrespectfully.
And God hated that.
And He told them to stop doing that.
And Moses gave them the right to theto get a certificate of divorce
so that women could go and marry, re marryso that
they could take care of themselves.
So we get it so wrong.

(55:41):
And I tell, put ourselves into these bondsand these this,
this toxic, rigid systemthat hurts us and hurts our children.
So, you you're going to get sometimesyou have both people come in right
to talk about that.Sometimes it's only one.
And I've even known coupleswith, with, neurodiverse
spouse that they separate.

(56:04):
They live separately,but they stay married.
Yeah. Oh, that's not uncommon.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so it's a, it's a, it's an optionwhen living together is too overwhelming.
Yeah.
For the person with ASDand they can't handle
the noise of childrenand all busyness and all that.
But this has kept the familyfrom having to split up.

(56:27):
I think that's that's very,a very good option to consider
because,none of us can have all the bluebirds
singing and all the rainbow colorsand happily ever up.
That's, that's, a fantasy.
So some of us only get a sliverof the rainbow, but let's optimize that.
Let's make that good.
And that might not be our whole livesand all our week,

(56:49):
seven days a week, 24 hours a day,it might be a different variation
on what the partnership looks like.
Yeah. An absolutely.
And as long as it's edifying to life,God honoring
and a blessing to more than not,I think that's a godly marriage.
Yeah, absolutely.
And there are timeswhen it just doesn't work.
And we have to be willing to allow peoplenot to tell them that they should

(57:13):
or shouldn't divorce,but to allow them to come
to their own conviction and awarenessas far as what's healthy.
And Christians do not error especiallyChristians in difficult relationships,
in any type of difficult marriage,
they do not error on divorcing too much.

(57:35):
Yeah, they on divorcing too little.
Yeah, separating, too little.
So we are not here having to sayoh no, no,
you can't walk out on your marriagebecause you don't like the same things
as your spouse or.
Yeah, you know, you’re tired now or now.
It's a struggle.
And it was easy before you fallen outof, the, right.

(57:56):
Kind of oxytocin has worn off.
Time for you to do that.
So. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, how can listenersfind out more about you and contact you?
So, I have a website and,maybe you can also offer a link
to that in the show notes or even willI offer it at this time?

(58:16):
25 minute mini for a very low booking fee.
A mini appointment where it's about me learning about them, helping
them understand me and how I approachthis, what the pricing is of what I offer.
I also offer support groups.
I offer classes usually,and I have a lot of women internationally

(58:36):
that take my classes because I offer themmy morning on the West Coast time.
So it's still 6 or 7:00 in, Dubaior wherever they are at.
I offer a Thursday night drop in groupwhere it is is an ongoing community,
a support group membershipfor neurotypical Christian women, married
or in relationship with maybe all kinds of people that are neurodiverse.

(58:58):
And, that's all on my website.
So that is the best place toto get a big picture.
Yeah. Go to the website. Yeah.
And there's also other podcasts and videos
I've donethat are all listed on my media page.
So yeah. Yeah.
So when and then I will be linkingput down the, podcasts
that were on porn,the four of those with Stephanie and Dan.

(59:18):
So I'll also be linking their information.
They have also a ton of podcastsout there.
So for people listening that need a placeto go to get, especially Christians,
that you have a placeto go to get reliable content
from peoplethat know what they're talking about.
With this issue,you and Stephanie and Dan, what

(59:40):
what's the actual name of theirs?
It's the it's called the NeurodiverseChristian Couples Podcast.
And then the monthly segment Stephanieand I do the second Monday of every month
is the Neurodiverse Christian CouplesCoaches Corner.
I said, Stephanie, could you not havemore words in that title?
Coaches.
Words. Yeah, yeah. Coaches’ Corner.

(01:00:02):
Yeah.
And, it's it's all aboutwe talked to different
people,different coaches, different people
that are trying to help couplesin some way in this arena.
Yeah. Perfect.
So people are desperate for resources.
So this will give them a lot.
So thank you.
So much.
And you last minuteadjusted your time for me.
So I appreciate your flexibilityand your wealth of knowledge.

(01:00:25):
And you look beautiful.
Absolutely beautiful. Oh my gosh you.
God’s good.
What can I say. Yeah.
So thank you again.
And for those of you
listening or watching, thank you very muchfor giving us your time.
And I pray that you would
have found this way, helpfulto put into your own life and marriage.

(01:00:46):
Also, please pass this on to anyonethat you know that would benefit from it.
It's this.
I would say it's a gift.
You can give with just a click.
This just by sending it, sharing iton a text or sharing it in an email.
And that way you're giving that,you're giving that person
also hopeI hear a lot of hope in your voice.
Amen.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.

(01:01:09):
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla

(01:01:31):
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.

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