Interview: How to Restore Your Sense of Self in a Neurodiverse Marriage

In this sequel podcast to "How You Lose Your Self in Neurodiverse Marriages, Elizabeth and Kathleen share how to restore your sense of self. Both are married to men with Asperger's Syndrome and are the founders of "My Aspie and Me," a private Facebook group for Christian women. They hear women in their group say that they no longer recognize themselves and don't know who they are. Both also experienced a loss of themselves in their marriages. In this group, they provide classes and posts to guide the women on how to respond differently to their marriage challenges by prioritizing their own mental, relational, spiritual, emotional, and physical health.

This is a timely topic given the awareness of more women that the problems they have been dealing with in their painful and difficult marriages are Asperger's. Once they realize this, they need to be given the tools and ideas to respond differently to their husbands and to intentionally restore their sense of self to create a better life for themselves.

My Aspie and Me private Facebook group is specifically designed for Christian women. It provides relational, marital, personal, and spiritual help for women married to neurodiverse men with Asperger's Syndrome. To join, please send a message to the group admin expressing your interest via Facebook Messenger. You will receive a message via Facebook Messenger.      

 #AspergersMarriage #NeurodiverseMarriage #ChristianMarriageHelp #ChangeMyRelationship #ChristianSelfHelp #ChristianRelationshipHelp 

 

Website: https://www.changemyrelationship.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ChangeMyRelationship YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@changemyrelationship

Watch this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/sl3UZEugeEE

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
You're listening to a podcastby Change My Relationship,
featuring licensed marriageand family therapist and author
Karla Downing.
These podcast are designedto provide you
with practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today,Karla will be interviewing
a guest who has experienceda relationship problem

(00:22):
and successfullyworked through it.
So I'd like to
welcome you to ChangeMy Relationship podcast.
I have with me today.
Again, this is parttwo with Kathleen and Elizabeth.
Both are married to menwith Asperger's.

(00:44):
And we are going to be talkingtoday about how to restore
your sense of selfin a neurodiverse marriage.
In addition,they both run a private Facebook
group called My Aspie and Me.
So they regularly interactwith hundreds of women
who also are married to menwith Asperger's.

(01:06):
They have heard many womentalk about
losing their sense of self,
which is what the priorpodcast was about.
And in this one,
we are going to be focusing onhow to restore
your sense of self.
So welcomeKathleen and Elizabeth.
Good morning Karla.
So a term that we use when

(01:28):
we're talking about loss ofsense of self is codependency.
There are two originsof codependent.
Can you explain what those are?
Yes. One type of codependency
is developedwithin the Asperger's marriage.
The wife doesn't needher husband to be dependent
upon her.
What she desires from himis to become responsible and

(01:51):
reciprocal in their relationshipand share responsibilities.
However, it into the marriage,she comes to realize that
she's investingso much of herself
in coveringwhat the ND husband cannot,
and she desires to have all herefforts recognized
and validated,for which they may not be.

(02:11):
Another type of codependencythat we find
is, from childhoodthat comes from a learned
behaviordeveloped with the child.
Prioritizing the needs
and emotions of othersat the expense of their own.
They may have neededto be caretakers or caregivers
with emotionally unstableparents or caregivers.

(02:32):
They may have developed
a deep rooted need for approvaland validation, and yet
not recognizing their ownfeelings and needs,
which then leads to unhealthyrelationships into adulthood.
Now, they are
dependent on approval of othersto feel good about themselves,
and they have difficultysetting boundaries.

(02:53):
They may also fear abandonment.
We also see relationshipdependency happen
when the wife has court
difficultiesloving or trusting herself,
and needs the relationshipto provide validation and value.
So she seeks identity, safetyand meaning in life
through another person,which is her husband.

(03:16):
Staying with him becomesa matter of survival for her
because the neurodiversemarriage relationship
may not perform according to herneurotypical expectations,
the NT wife fearsit will not happen,
and then she strives to make itso, which can lead her
in dependency.
And her fear may startspeaking to her.

(03:39):
And it says, without yourhusband, where's your identity?
Without him, you'll feel empty.
And withouthim you may be nothing.
And this is what she needs.
The marriage relationshipto work neurotypically.
Now, the NT wifemay not realize it yet.

(03:59):
That her relationshipneeds to be neurodiverse
rather than neurotypical,
but because if it does,because if it does not change
into a neurotypical marriage,she may feel abandoned,
left on her own, and on her own.
She may feel she's not enough.
And then at last,what does this say about her

(04:22):
worth now?
No woman desiresto experience these emotions,
so she nowenters into control mode,
which can lead herin dependency.
And I just want to takea brief minute here to share
that while the neurotypical wifeis into dependency,
we have the neurodiverse husbandwho is having difficulty

(04:45):
with social cues, communication,and emotional expression.
Yet these are the very thingsthe wife is desiring from him.
He's going tosee her desires as unrealistic.
Unreasonable
because of how his brainis neurologically developed.
She will feel misunderstoodand unmet with intensified

(05:07):
emotional distressand feelings of isolation.
So we start to seethe codependency dynamic
and the challenges leaveseach partner
not being understoodwith increased frustration.
Wow. So I'm hearing thatthat is a little bit different
take thanthe normal codependency,

(05:31):
because whatI'm hearing thrown in there is
she desperatelyneeds him to be normal.
But neurotypical is talkingto had
to have his brainand his relationship
functioning be likeit would in a marriage

(05:51):
to somebodywho does not have Asperger's.
Am I right? Correct, yes.
And that that expectationand that deep need
which is tied toher worth and her identity,
feels like it
absolutely has to happenor she's not okay?

(06:12):
That is also correct.
There really is a, mismatchtaking place. Yes.
Okay.
And we're going to talk moreabout that as we go.
But I just want to havelisteners queue
into when you saywhen she expects
a neurotypical marriage,because we are going to talk

(06:34):
abouthow to change that expectation
and that that is going to havea lot to do with her
being able to be okay.
Yes. Okay.
So that is talking about
how you lose your sense of selfor how you become codependent.

(06:55):
So now let's talk abouthow do you restore or develop
if you didn't have a senseof self, a strong sense of self
from childhoodbecause you had childhood
codependency. It's going to behow do you
how do you developa sense of self?
How do you finally get that
even in the midstof a neurodiverse marriage?

(07:16):
But before we do that,
if a wife takes the focus offof trying to force her husband
to be different or to be normal,
to be like she needs him to beand puts it onto herself,
won't everything fall apart?
I mean, if he's not functioningwhen she's trying

(07:37):
hard to get himto do what he needs to do,
how is it going to workif she just
stops trying to change himand puts the focus on herself?
we have seen that happen
and it needs to
be a different structureand sometimes it needs
to fall apart.
Because if she keeps holding onto trying to make it happen,

(07:59):
she does soat the risk of losing herself.
You can't have both.
Sometimes
what she may needto come to understand is that
she's not going to have
the Neurotypical expectationrelationship.
She will have a neurodiverse.
It's going to happendifferently.
And that can be okay.

(08:22):
Okay.
So she has to shift her focusthen onto herself.
It's kind of like
put the oxygen mask on yourselffirst in an on an airplane.
They'll tell you
before you put it on the personsitting next to you
who needs your help.
Because if you don't,you're not going to be there.
So if she is losing herselfand she's falling apart,

(08:45):
then she's got to essentially
rescue herself, fix herself,get herself back together.
And then part of that
is going to beand changing that expectation
that plays into her self-care.
Yes. Okay.
So that is, you know, you
really,really key to understand.

(09:11):
So she needs to let go
because it's not healthy for herthe way it is.
The first thingthat you mentioned is self-care.
Can you talk about self-care?
Yes I can.
Self-careis just that caring for yourself
first in meeting your own needs.

(09:31):
And this does not meanyou are being self-centered.
It's foundational for yourpersonal well-being and growth.
It allows you to bea better version of yourself.
And if you have children,
it allows you to be a bettersupport to them.
It's providingrespect to yourself,
and we can only expect othersto care

(09:53):
and respect us to the measurethat we respect and care.
Self-care in a neurodiversemarriage relationship is not
a luxury. It's a necessity.
Also withthat is improving the diet
because vitamin and mineraldeficiencies can play havoc
with your body,mind and nervous system.

(10:14):
She needs to exercise,which boosts her self-esteem,
improvesher emotional regulation,
reduces stress, and improvessleep.
It's going to allow herto take a break from ruminating
on negative aspects.
She may also need to journalas a means to express her
thoughts and emotionsoutside of herself,

(10:37):
which enables herto look at matters objectively
and helpto process her emotions.
And then very importantthat at least once a month,
she plans something for herselfto look forward to.
And she needs to say yesto herself and her needs
and then develop self-worth.

(10:57):
That's not dependent on othersto provide it for her.
And Karla,
you teachus to learn to self validate,
and you do a wonderful jobin encouraging us to do this, to
fill our self with the validatethat we would want from others.
So I also teach self-care.

(11:19):
I call it nurtureyourself in my ten principles,
and I tell women and men,start small.
If you are not used
to taking care of yourself,just do one little thing a day.
It might only be ten minutes.
And often the reason thatyou don't take care of yourself

(11:40):
is because you either feelthat it's selfish or you feel.
Sometimes, Christian womenwill have the feeling
that God doesn'twant them to put others
or put themselves before others,that they should always
put others before themselves.
Also, we have a part ofthe dysfunctional family rules.

(12:01):
One of them is don't be selfish.
And that means don'tput yourself first.
Don't take care of yourself.
But also part of her identityis, I'm hearing
you say withthe codependency is in
take isn't doing the thingsshe needs to do in her marriage
to try to make her her marriageand her family.
If she has children, workneuro typically.

(12:24):
So she's exhaustedbecause that's trying so hard
to make this work and figurethis out, that in that process
she just completely ignoresher own needs.
So starting small,asking yourself
if you've completelylost yourself,
you may not even knowwhat you like.
You may not even knowwhat you want.

(12:44):
You may not know what you need.
So you have to startreally small.
And just saying,you know what? What it made me.
What did I used to likebefore this marriage?
What did I used to enjoy doing?
What am I what could I do?
And I agree 100%.
Exercise is a great stressrelief,
even if it's just a ten minutewalk.

(13:06):
So very importantthat you do that.
But I've had women tell me
because of the dysfunctionin the marriage,
and that would be the same thinghere, that they sometimes
are afraid
to leave
their homes with childrenbecause they're afraid
everything'sgoing to fall apart.
So you have to give yourselfpermission to
take care of yourself. Yes.

(13:28):
Yeah.
So I'm sure that these womenare coming into these marriages,
many of themwith some past trauma.
And we knowwe hear a lot about trauma.
Now, traumajust has to do with experiences
in the pastthat have harmed you,
that are affecting youin the present.
So it can be,

(13:49):
many different types of things.
So how does past trauma affecthow she responds
to the stress of an Aspergersmarriage?
Well, she may need to learn
how to uproot,relearn and reteach.
And what I mean bythis is many NT
wives have experienced trauma,have emotional wounds

(14:13):
and false beliefsthat originated from childhood.
The trauma is triggeredby being in
a ND marriage relationship,
so they need to discovertheir roots and do what's
necessary to heal.
Theseare the classes that you offer
and we offer in our group.
Truth in the Mirror.

(14:34):
Healing the Wounds of Your Past,Ten Life
Saving Principles for Womenin Difficult Marriages.
Yes, those you.
And what you meanis you take my classes,
my materialsthat are normally taught
through Change my Relationship
and you offer them viamy Aspie and me.
Yes. Correct.
And the and I really appreciateyou doing that.

(14:57):
It's been very helpful.
I know to the womenthat you have worked with.
So I also teach about grievingthe loss of your dreams
to allow youto enter into acceptance,
which allows you to stopresisting reality and instead
accept it soyou can make different choices.
How does acceptance help?

(15:19):
Acceptance helps in many ways.
It allows yourself to movefrom desperation to motivation
for yourself,to accept that mistakes happen,
and a willingness to learnand grow from them to improve.
For womenmarried to an ASD spouse,
she needs to come to
an understanding of what isrealistic versus perception,

(15:46):
what relationship is
supposed to beaccording to books or movies.
ASD is neurological.
It's in their DNA and can onlybe modified to a degree.
So acceptance
I also teach,I teach that acceptance is that

(16:06):
thing that allows youto stop resisting
and instead embraceor accept it.
And it literally means
when you acceptthat you put out your hands.
If you can visualize that,if you're listening,
put out your hands and acceptwhat is out
and take what is offered.

(16:26):
So it's like you're
putting out your handand you're saying, okay,
I am marriedto a man with Asperger's.
This is not going to bethe normal
marriage of my dreams,my expectations,
and the things that I see aroundme and maybe even my friends.
How it's going to be different.

(16:47):
I'm going to stop fighting that.
I'm going to stop tryingto force it to be
a normal or neurotypical marriage.
And I'm going to acceptthat there's
going to be some differences,and my husband might not be able
to do all the things that I needin the way that I need them,
but I'm going to
stop trying to force that that.

(17:08):
Right? Yes.
And then I think alsowhen you come to acceptance,
you're you're coming, you'reyou're allowing the circle
to close in.
In the grieving process,
you may go back and forth atdifferent times here and there.
But for the big bulkmajority of it,

(17:32):
you know,there's the full circle.
And the circle is now completebecause you've gone through
most of the almostall of the grieving process
and have come to, okay, I'mgoing to stay in this marriage.
It's going to look different.
And this is what it's goingto look like.
And the grief process is shock,denial,

(17:54):
then anger, then, bargaining,
then sadness,and then finally acceptance.
And there's also a sixth stage.
After acceptance comes hope.
And possibility.
And I love thatbecause once you accept, then
it's kind of like, okay,I accept that.

(18:15):
Now what can I do?
Given the factthat this is my reality?
And once I ask that question,I it's not that I'm resigned
to something horrible, it'sthat I have choices.
And those choicesyou two are saying is
what gives you backyour sense of self.
That is true. Yes.

(18:38):
One thing we like to emphasizewith the women
that we're not trying
to take something away from themnecessarily
and have them lowertheir expectation, but to shift
and adjust
that they can still havethat expectation,
have the hopeof that expectation.
But that expectation is goingto be fulfilled differently.

(19:00):
And just we need to start
comparing our relationshipsto the neurotypical ones.
This is our neurodiverserelationships is our normal.
It's our culture.
We are a group of right now,almost 500
who are all experiencingthe same thing.
So this is what this is ourtypical this is our normal boy.

(19:24):
That's really, reallya huge statement right for us
in an Asperger marriage, marriedto a man with Asperger's.
This is our normal.
That would bring you
right square into acceptance.

(19:44):
That would bea powerful thing to say.
Oh but this is my normal.
But this is our normalknowing that you have others.
You're not alone.
So what else can wives doto restore their sense of self?
So you can practice
healthy, positive self-talk
which looks like speakaffirmations to yourself,

(20:08):
believing you could impartand navigate challenges
to recognize your own choices,to influence yourself.
Your words may becomeself-fulfilling prophecies,
and what you mean by that is
affirmations is affirming
somethingthat you know to be true

(20:30):
and that you want to believein a stronger way.
So you would say thingsto yourself like,
I have a new normal.
I am able to look atmy husband differently. I am
restoring my sense of self.

(20:51):
I am taking care of myself.
I am a personI can restore who I need to be.
Whatever it is that you needto affirm, I'm okay
with whatever
that is, you're going to saythat to yourself regularly.
It's kind of likereplacing the thought,
like I teach replacing partsthat are damaging or distorted

(21:14):
or untrue,and you're affirming what
you know you need to believe
in a stronger way.
Yes. Okay.
And sometimes, I mean,I know for me, for a long time
I actually had to repeat wordsback to myself.
Actually, I forced myself, well,

(21:37):
my therapist suggested thisto me,
to look at myself in the mirrorand speak to myself.
That could be scripturethat could be,
I think I mostly, if I remember,I mostly used scripture
like I am a child of God,I am God's daughter.
I am beautiful,

(21:57):
and I had to, stand, likeI said, in front of that mirror
and look into the mirrorand speak those things to myself
until I actually startedto believe them
and know them to be truein my heart.
Yes. And that'swhat the affirmation part is.
You have to say them in orderto recognize in a

(22:20):
in a much more full waythat they are true.
And I can imagine myselfstanding there
needing to say,I'm going to be okay. Yes.
I'm going to make it. Yes.
Okay.
So now medication is alwaysa personal choice.
Meaning, medication for,

(22:42):
mental illness.
But sometimes it's necessarybecause prolonged chronic stress
can depleteour neurotransmitters.
So do women sometimeshave to take medication
as a part of their self-care?
Yes they do.
Sometimes medicationis necessary for a season,

(23:03):
but it can be also long term
and this can be for depressionand or anxiety.
And again, that’s a personalchoice, but just an option.
Recognizing again
that self-care isgiving yourself what you need.
Yes, that will make life betterfor you, easier for you,

(23:26):
for you to function betterand recognizing your needs.
And if you have a prolongeddepression or anxiety,
that's a level to a levelwhere you can't function.
You need to seek help,
usually sometimesfrom your personal physician
if they're knowledgeable, andsometimes from a psychiatrist.

(23:48):
So what else can wives do?
Well, they can take timeto be courageous.
They can think throughrelationship, alternative,
respectives develop resilience.
One thing that I did was createa space room just for yourself.
And it's a place that'sdecorated, furnished in ways

(24:10):
that reflect you to relax, thatgives you a space to breathe.
I have a room for myselfwith a desk and a computer
to study and do classeswithout being interrupted.
I also have a separatenook area with a comfortable
chair, decorations, and plantsthat I like

(24:31):
where I read in the morningin the evening time
so that also if you don'thave a place in your house
because I like, I love this ideathat you need to be able to
have a placewhere you can actually think
and kind of pull yourselftogether.
Maybe it's just to relaxand kind of have your time

(24:54):
where you can be separate fromwhatever it is that's going
on, that's stressing you.
But if a woman doesn'thave a place in her house,
maybe you need to havea special place at a coffee shop
where you go to
where you get to know peopleand they greet you
and they say helloand they say your name,
and you go inand you have coffee

(25:15):
and you take your timeto just sit and do,
like thinking,like you said, to have,
different perspectives onwhat is going on.
Also, it could be at a park.
It can be a, special placewhere you go
and you sit where there'sbeautiful trees and flowers.
I just read an articlein, Epic Times this past week

(25:40):
that talked about how ourbrain is wired for beauty,
that we naturally recognize
beauty and patternsin, like, nature
and how it literally theythey did a study where they,
like, looked at your heart rateand different
things that showedhow your body, your autonomic

(26:03):
nervous system was reactingto like beautiful things.
And it was that your heart rateslowed,
the blood pressure dropped,and there was a calming effect
just by looking at thingsthat were beautiful.
So going into nature and sittingand either
walking or just sitting,and then looking at

(26:24):
it is actually therapeuticand healing.
So I love that idea.
Now boundaries.
They take the longest to set,and I always tell
women and men that you've gotto kind of work through
all the other things beforeyou're ready to set boundaries.

(26:47):
So don't push yourselfto set them before you're ready,
because once you set them,you don't want to back down.
You want to be ableto hold firm,
but often you don't even knowwhat your boundaries are for
a while until you kind of sorteverything else and figure out.
Plus, you've got ayou've got to have a self

(27:07):
to communicate boundariesand to know your boundaries
and also to say your boundaries.
So it takes a while.
So be gentle with yourselfand do not expect
to get thereuntil you've done some work.
But how do boundaries help?
And canyou give us some examples? Yes.

(27:29):
So here are some examplesthat you can do to create
healthy boundariesknow what you want.
Communicate them clearlywhat you are willing to do
and whatyou are not willing to do.
So doyou have specific examples?
Maybe the two of youhave you give us
give us some examplesof boundaries you've set? Yes.

(27:53):
This is an area that we hear,
a lotfrom the neurotypical women.
And this is an areaI experienced
with Cooperand had to set a boundary.
And this is where they Aspie man
can become agitatedand or goes into a meltdown,
and they can become verbally
disrespectfulto abusive to the NT wife.

(28:15):
So we hear, like I said thisfrom many of the NT wives,
what I had to do with Cooper.
My boundary went like this, andI had to make sure that I was
in a very calm, confident stateand I just spoke these words.
I'm not willingto stay in the room with you
when hurtfulthings are being said about me.

(28:36):
If this happens again,I'm going to excuse myself
and walk away.
This is not to disrespect you.
It's to give us each the timeand space to reset ourselves.
I will leave you for a half hourand then return and
we can engage.
So typical thing that happens
in an, neurodiversemarriage, it's with

(29:00):
the Asperger's is meltdownswhen they get over whelmed.
Yes. Disintegrate.
And part of that is harsh words,
angry words, bluntwords, hurtful words.
Right? Directed at the wife.
It's beyond,I will be honest with you,
when it happened,it was beyond anything I had

(29:23):
ever experienced in my life.
I was just kind of like, stunnedin a state of shock
that something could come outof that mouth to that extent.
And women will say to me, well,what do I do?
What do I do when he does that?
Because it's so hurtful to meand my thought that I share
with them is, don't stay thereand listen to it.

(29:45):
We've got to get you tothat point where you can share
this boundarywith him and walk away,
because it'snot going to do you any good
for him to say that.
Now, if it's during a meltdown,he's lost total control.
He can't stop it.
So don't stay there.
while, he does it
and it does no goodfor you to come back and then

(30:06):
make accusations to him,
because the truth of the matteris, he feels such shame
that his body.
Did that.
And he alreadyhas those regrets.
And once he resets himself,
he really doesn'tremember much past the.

(30:27):
And he will quickly recoverand go on.
So we have to create that safespace for her by letting her
share with him upfrontand then dismiss herself.
So recognizingwhat you're talking about
is there basicallybeing completely dysregulated
in the nervous system and thereand this happens to all of us.

(30:49):
It's being in your lower brainand all you're doing
is respondingout of fight and flight.
And it is.
So that'swhere all of that comes from.
And the other thingthat she needs to do
when we're talking
specifically about thisis to be able to detach and love
recognizing this isn't about me,this is about his meltdown.

(31:10):
This is about him,not him being overwhelmed.
This is about him feeling,
this extreme
dysregulation dysregulation,which is a fight or flight
and feeling panickedand just struggling to survive.
And that's where it comes from.
So I'm not going to take itpersonal,

(31:30):
but I'm not going to listento it,
because once you hear it, it'shard to let go of that.
So I agree with you that that isan essential boundary
that anybody needs to havein a marriage where
or a relationship where peoplestart to say things like that,
don't stay and hear it and don'tthink that you can counter it
or reason with it,or try to explain to him, or

(31:55):
just even go back overall of it in detail
and try to correct it,
because it's comingfrom a state of dysregulation.
However, we're not saying it'sokay.
We're not saying that there'san excuse.
We're saying there's a reason.
But what recognizing that thatdoes happen, remove yourself.

(32:17):
Correct.That's what you're saying.
Are there other boundaryexamples that you can think of?
Are there conversationsthat get kind of into,
like an impossiblekind of spiral
or where they're very obsessedabout a particular thing
and just keep wanting to talkabout it and talk about it.
And you've just got to go.I'm done. I can't do this.

(32:38):
All right.
Yes, I'vehad I've had that happen to me.
And I've alsowhat I've had happen to me
is there there still tendsto be many places
where there'sno resolution to our discussion.
So what happens is,I will just let my husband know
that I'm not willingto make an argument of this,

(33:02):
and I'm just willing to agreeto disagree with the goal.
Hopefully later we will be ableto come to a conclusion.
But there, like I said,there still are some areas
in our marriage there wherewe don't have any conclusions.
I actually think that that'spretty normal in marriages,

(33:23):
but in the marriages that aredysfunctional and difficult,
including my own experience withthat is there are often
things that I have to do thatmy husband and I have to do that
with them.
We're not going to see eyeto eye on them.
Before I felt like I had to makehim understand my perspective
and make him even agree withmine in order for me to be okay.

(33:47):
And now I knowI don't have to do that.
And the other thingthat we often do
when we're losing ourselfis thinking that we have to
change our own beliefsand opinions and thoughts
about things
to match his, thatwe've got to be on the same page
and we have to accept that
we're not going to beon the same page.

(34:07):
We don't have to make himthink like we do, and we don't.
We don't have to make ourselvesthink like them,
like our husbands.
And that is profound freedom
and keep you fromgetting into these
continual arguments, especiallywith the Aspie husband.
When you come to accept

(34:27):
and realizethat his brain is developed
so differently neurologicallythan our brain,
so much of what they dojust doesn't make sense to us.
It's not going to make senseto us, and much of
what we dojust doesn't make sense to them.
And I know Cooper will ask101 questions and I'm like,

(34:49):
I can't do this.
And then when he does,
but I'm just trying to makesense of what you're saying.
And I'm like, but you're not.
It's not.It's okay that it's not.
We're still going to be okay.
We're different,but it's still going to be okay.
Yeah, that is huge.
And when we're codependent,we tend to be enmeshed,
which meanswe want to see the same.

(35:11):
So we want to think the sameand we want to feel the same.
And that's not going to happen.
So that's part
back to that expectationthat we talked about earlier.
Our expectationis going to change.
It's the marriage is going tolook different.
We're not going to thinkand feel the same
about a lot of things.
And it's okaybecause we understand why.

(35:33):
Okay.
Now speaking your truth in love,
your speaking, your boundaries,I hear you
with a very gentle voiceexplaining what a caring voice,
explainingwhy you have boundaries.
Sometimes we do that, sometimeswe just state the boundary.
But where does speakingthe truth and love come in?
This is importanttoo, because we need to do this.

(35:55):
And so when you dospeak your truth in love,
you need to speak itwithout judgment, without blame,
and then at the same timealso validate your husband.
So give me an exampleof how you would do that.
So I'm thinking the judgmentand the blame
would basically be kind of like,what's wrong with you?

(36:17):
You don't get it.
You're like, you're rigid,you're controlling.
You're like blank, blank,blank, blank, fill in the blank.
Whatever you need to say.
And you're ruining the marriageand you're making it.
You're hurting me and the kids,
and you'recausing all the problems.
That sounds like judgmentand blame, right?

(36:39):
I would say
things like,I'm really struggling or I'm.
Or I'm concernedor I'm hurt by what you say.
So let's say he has a meltdownand you walk out of the room
and you don't listen to it,but you're still
disregulated yourself
and you're still hurt, and youcan't let it go that whole day.

(37:03):
It's kind of bothering you.
Are you allowed to say.
I just need to let you knowthat I'm still hurting from,
your meltdownor the things that you said.
Are you allowed to say that?
Oh, yes. Absolutely.
You can say that and that.
That's a part of
of speaking your truthto your husband and letting him.

(37:25):
It kind of fallsinto accountability also to
whether he recognizeswhat he said.
But you're letting him know I'mstill hurt over what happened.
I still need time and space.
Okay.
And then how do you validateyour husband?
So validating him could be,

(37:48):
saying something as simple as,I recognize
that when we were havingthis conversation
that I may have saidsome hurtful things to you
also, maybe asking to seekhis forgiveness in that,
also too maybe validatingyour husband is
recognizing that,

(38:08):
as wetalked about before, there may
there may not be a resolution,
but, could we maybetake some time
and come back at this laterwhen we're both in a calm state
and can think clearly togetherand be respectful to each other?
And I think toothat it's things like

(38:30):
Kathleen said, like,I know that it's hard for you.
I know thatwhen you get dysregulated
that you say thingsthat you don't mean,
and I know this is hard for you,and I know that,
whatever it is
that he's going through,that he's voiced to you,
that he's dealing with. Right?

(38:51):
Does that make sense? Openness.
How did that experienceduring a therapy session.
And I was the one tryingto convince him, trying
to get him to understand, tryingto get him to agree with me.
And he just shouted out,he said, these are my feelings.

(39:11):
These are my words.
And the therapist said,do you understand?
He just validate him. Kathleen
and I thought,
well, how can I validate himwhen he's speaking things
that are not true?
But it's that's notwhat the validation is about.
We're not here to judgewhether it was true or not,
just to reflect back to himwhat you've heard him say.

(39:35):
That's all he wanted.
He wanted his words to be heard.
It wasn't about whether he wasright or wrong, good or bad.
He just wanted to be heard.
And one can validate that.
So you're saying that you'rea neurotypical wife
and you look at the neurodiverse, your Aspie husband,

(39:55):
and you think your emotionsare wrong,
your thoughts are wrong,your thinking is wrong.
It's not like mine.
And you want it by telling himhe's wrong,
you're going to increasehis frustration.
And also that's not fair.
And it's not healthy.
You want validation yourself.

(40:15):
You want him
because he's looking at youand thinking the same thing.
You want him to be able to say,okay, I don't understand
why you feel this, but you do.
So that's basically what you'resaying to him is it's different
and I don't understand it.
But I know for youthat that's true
and that's what validation is.

(40:36):
And validation is powerful
in a relationshipand absolutely essential.
It turned things around.
It really did.
And I still hope to todayyou'll do something.
And I say, yes, I hear that.
Oh you are I understand thatAnd then the tug of war stops.
Yes. Because he feels validated.

(40:57):
And one thing that menwith just Aspergers do,
if there's other thingsthis may not be true,
but one of thethe things with Asperger's
is that theysometimes will pick up things.
They learn things
that they're supposed to do,and they'll pick it up.
So they'll it's sometimes theycopy what they think is normal.

(41:18):
Yeah.
And so if you begin to validatethem, it's
setting an exampleof validating you.
So it turns out to be a win winsituation.
Yeah. That's it's a vital tool.
Yeah. Yeah very much okay.
What about community.
My feeling is that

(41:39):
in order to do all of thisthat you absolutely
have to have support, and that people who understand.
So where can wives ofAspergers husbands find help?
They can find help in
communityand the community that is safe,
that is healthy,that is positive

(42:00):
and that is supportiveand a road to recovery.
So in our group, my Aspie in me,
when women come into our group,we want them to feel safe
and validatedand we want to offer them
positive suggestions,not advice.
We invite themto join our study classes

(42:22):
where they can startto learn to heal
and have healthyrelationships dynamics,
which then helps restoretheir sense of self,
also allows space space
between the old storyand the new story.
That empty space there for God
to enterin, any new story to be created

(42:46):
with no time constraints,refuse judgment control
and allow compassionand subtle forms to emerge.
And I knowfrom reading many of your posts,
because you've allowed meto be in there,
and I sometimes comment on,
when I have time on poststhat are made,
that it is a support group inthat a woman can literally vent

(43:12):
about
what isgoing on and some situation
that happened or somethingshe's struggling with
and get input from other
women who have are goingthrough the same thing
and have a new perspective
or a different perspectiveor something they've learned,
and it gives themso much feedback and input.

(43:34):
And it's justit's it's invaluable.
And I don't know of any I'm sure
there is something elseout there,
but I don't know of anything.
Do you?
I just want to, touch baseon what you said.
We allow them to vent,
and that's importantbecause they need to find.
They need,their voice needs to be heard.
However,we come alongside them and
show them and guide themhow to do that respectfully.

(43:57):
We don't allow them to come in
and bash their husbandor lay a lot of blame.
Yes, to speak negatively because
in a groupthe that Elizabeth and I had,
we had met through, there wasa lot of that going on.
And after reading so many postswhere it was just,
just fragmented,

(44:18):
negativity.
It didn't havea personally affected us.
By the timemy husband would come home,
I was ready to kind of,like, tear into him,
and he had nothingto do with it.
So we kind of like, yes,we want you to share this
in such a waythat shows respect to yourself
and to your husband,because he doesn't know
that he's been talkedabout like this.

(44:38):
Yes, but also frustrationwith the real things
that are happeningor with problems
that they're dealing with
and then getting inputwith solution.
Right.
Yeah.
So I think it'sa really healthy,
it is a groupthat is Christian based.
Yes. You do a vettingand why do you do that.

(45:00):
Because it is a Christian based
and there are a lot of womenwho, are not Christians.
They're secular.
There's a lot of themthat just don't believe in God.
They have other thingsthat they believe in.
We believe.
We believe in God.We believe in Jesus.
We believe in the Holy Spirit.
And there is powerin our prayer,

(45:22):
to help women.
And so we don't
to kind of co-minglethose can be
really, A struggle that happenedin the other group when,
I was allowed to announce thatI was forming this, my Aspie
and Me
and that it wasa Christian group
because there was a hint thatthere was some ladies in there.

(45:44):
But once I did that,
they turned on me and tarredand feathered me. Yes.
I mean, it was unmerciful.
Yeah.
So I think thethe reason is that
you want to be able to givesupport to the spiritual,
part of
the women'slives that they are also trying

(46:05):
to integratewith what's going on.
And you offer prayer,which is obviously powerful.
So, what about the situationwith if,
well, let's see how much
change in their marriagecan they reasonably expect?
Because I knoweven though we say don't change,
stop changing your husbandin the back of our minds

(46:28):
and maybe even out ofthere has to be some change
because the marriageis super unhealthy and not good
for the kidsand not good for for the woman.
Maybethere needs to be some change.
And we're telling herthat she can do
the changes within herself
that will have an impacton her marriage.
But in the end, how much?

(46:51):
Well, we hear this questionfrom women from time to time,
and what we have come to learnand know
is that each neurodiversemarriage is different.
There are some sad storieswhere the ND husband,
who's rigidity is highand not able
to handle the necessary changesthe wife makes for herself

(47:12):
or when she implementsboundaries, was saying, no
these are areasthat he may be unable
to manage himself, so theremay be separation or divorce.
Then there are neurodiverse
marriages where small changesare possible.
The wife stops to cryand you convert her

(47:33):
and the husbandinto a neurotypical husband.
The wife learns to detachand develop the ability to say
yes or no to areasin the marriage, and both start
to have a mutual respectfor one another's requests.
There is no longerthe pressure to say
yes to everythingand then feel resentful.

(47:55):
Rather,you develop self respect.
At firstthere may be some pushback
from the ND husbands to theno responses from the NT wife.
This is because of the change
the neurodiverse husbandis experiencing in his wife.
He may come to observe thegrowing confidence in his wife

(48:19):
as she learns to set boundaries,speaks her truth in love
and skills learnedin your classes that we offer.
These skills result in a healthyand more balanced marriage.
However, there's
much the NT wife can learnif she desires.
This can become her seasonto regain her sense of self,

(48:42):
her identity,and to become honest
with what she seeksin a relationship.
Marriage.
How to enter into it.
With both eyes opened
for the Aspie man and I havediscussed this with some of them
who have been divorcedthat in desiring to remarry,
they now know about theirdiagnosis, how it operates,

(49:04):
what they are ableand not able to do.
They need to be open and honest
to the womenthat they are dating.
What marriage may look like.
It won't be a
neurotypical marriage,but a neurodiverse marriage.
So not every marriageis the same.
Some it'sgoing to be so much rigidity
that the Aspie husbandwon't be able to adapt

(49:30):
even to the changeshis wife is making,
and then that just may not work.
But yes.
Or for some. And
they are
able to make some changes again,
often in their perspective,their expectations
and their way of interactinteracting with their husbands,

(49:53):
which causes the husbandsto react.
It's like a dance
differently back to them,which may make it workable.
Yes, you are correct onthat issue.
Okay,so when does the Aspie husband
have to know he has Asperger's
and admit that that's truein order for this to work?

(50:15):
Because I know,
I know that they a lotare going to be very resistant
to being told
that they have somethingthat makes them neurodiverse.
Yes, there can bea lot of resistance.
And the answer to
your question is no, they do notthey do not need to know.
The wife or

(50:35):
the wifemay suspect or she may know,
but she doesn't have to havea official diagnosis
or have her husbandgo through testing for that.
She must.
She may just suspectthat something is off,
and some of the boxesthat she sees are ticking.
And so that's anindividual choice.

(50:57):
She can just leave thatto herself if she chooses to,
and carry on with the marriageand her life knowing.
Okay, I suspect thatmy husband is, neurodiverse.
And so I'm going to educateand learn
how to handle and stayin this neurodiverse marriage.

(51:18):
Ok, so does therapy help?
And what about marriage therapyversus individual therapy?
Both are helpful.
And we suggest that
the neurotypical wife by herselfgo and get therapy.
Because if she's workingwith a therapist
who specializes in ASD, thatalone can give her some script.

(51:40):
It can lead her intothis will work that won't work.
Or they can
go as a neurodiverse coupleand seek a therapist.
But it needs to be.
A therapist is going to be
affirming and knowledgeablewith neurodivergent,
a typical therapistwho is only familiar
with the term neurodiversitywithout the experience.

(52:02):
May treat Asperger’sas a personality disorder.
And Cooper and I did that.
We tried that.
And I'm like, no, we're nottalking about his personality.
This is not as personthat we're talking about
something that's neurological.
So and it is not and,or they encourage the Aspie
to conformto neurotypical expectations,

(52:22):
which then enforcesthe Aspie to need to mask.
And this can lead
to his burnoutor low self-esteem for himself.
So the therapist would be doing
exactly what the wifehad been trying to do.
That hasn't worked.
And, this is this isI have found this to be a reason

(52:44):
why most men will resistgoing to therapy.
They've already spent months oryears listening to this woman
list,
alphabetically or numerically.
All that they do thathave failed,
how wrong they are,how abusive they are.
They're not willing to go spendmoney
with therapists, is goingto confirm what she has said.

(53:07):
But that doesn't take place
when you're workingwith a therapist
who is specializing in ASDthat doesn't take place.
That therapist,is there to create a safe place
for each of the newer types,the neurotypical
and the neurodiverse,and to both get validated
and then to exploreeach of their needs

(53:27):
and how that can be bridgedtogether.
That's what Cooper and Iexperienced.
Now some women will even turn
to their pastorsand drag the husband with them,
and that too may not farewell because the pastor may
see Asperger's
only as a label ratherthan a neurology difference.
So there's the missed.

(53:49):
There's the missing,
the important insight thatthat diagnosis will provide.
Yeah, I think that's critical,
to be able to havesomebody who really understands
and who can give yousome practical ideas of,
like you said,I like that picture.
The word picture of a bridgebridge,
the differencesbetween the two of you
to where you can understandeach other, and also to

(54:13):
where you have a practical wayof working together.
And he's very much a translator,because there's things that
Cooper will say.
And I'm like, well,do you see what he just said?
And our therapist will say,back it up.
What he's really telling youis thus and so.
And I'm like, oh,is that what you really mean?
And Cooper say, yes.

(54:34):
And the same thing,you'll translate from me to him,
which has been an immensehelp. Oh, absolutely.
Let's get our footing on that.
Yes. That soundsthat sounds like,
an absolute perfect prescriptionfor what you need.
So I imaginethat the neurotypical wives
listening may be feeling badabout themselves right now

(54:54):
or feeling overwhelmed.
What canyou say to encourage them?
Oh, we don't want the
neurotypical wife to feel shame,guilt, or condemnation.
We have gone through this.
Elizabethand I have gone through
everything that we have sharedwith our listeners today.
So we've got empathy for youand the behaviors as well.

(55:16):
So please give yourselfcompassion and grace,
because your heart's intentionis to improve your relationship
with your Aspie husbandor partner,
and you want betterfor yourself.
A neurotypical wifemay not be able to change him,
but she can changethe course of herself
and for herself withinthe marriage relationship.
This is in order to restore hersense of self.

(55:39):
And we were talking abouthow much can he change?
My husband has beenin this therapy.
We works with two specialistwith ASD,
and there has been
only a margin of change.
But I have sat here in tearswatching him.
How hard he will work at that.

(56:02):
So even if he gives an inchto me that is just monumental
because I know the workthat's went behind it
and a lot of womendon't feel like
theirhusbands are working enough.
And although they don'tget a free pass, the husband
but they need to realizethat his little bit is really.

(56:22):
More than a couple go at it.
That makes sense.
And that may be discouragingto hear that,
but it is important that we dealwith reality because
once again, we'll go backto that statement that you said.
This is basicallyhow their brain is wired.
It's in their DNA. It'swho they are.
That part isnot going to change.

(56:44):
So what you're looking foris functional and practical.
Yes. Skills and things
that you can doin your own perception
and in your own behaviorof how you handle this.
And he learning even some things
that he can apply a little bit.

(57:06):
When you have that mindsetthat makes a huge change.
One of the thingsthe Cooper's learned
how to do is to recognize the,
the cycle, the stages ofapproaching into that meltdown.
And when he starts to feelthat agitation or rumble,
he has been told
and taught that he needs to say,excuse me.

(57:26):
And going in the other roomfor a bit
and I'll be back later.
And he does that. Yes.
That is reallythat has been a large
helpful thing in our,our marriage
that that sounds like thatwould be a very necessary thing.
But take a whileto get to that point,
because that
takes awareness of what'sgoing on inside your body,

(57:47):
and it takes awareness of your,emotional state
and your physical state.
But that is a oh, that is
the would be the ultimateis having him recognize that.
And rather than herhaving to leave him,
excusing himself to goget himself regulated.
So I imagine that she kind of
has to come to the pointwhere she has to say, okay,

(58:12):
can I do this?
Am I in this? Am I willing?
And I've heard you say thatthere is no shame that,
if a woman says,
I cannot do this, this is morethan I signed up for.
I'm not able to find myselfand get myself
in a place where I can healthilystay in this marriage.

(58:36):
Then if that's the caseand you can't.
We don't want people.
We don't want the women to feellike they're doing, something?
We're not talkingabout the spiritual side
of thatbetween themselves and God.
They can have to come to termswith that.
We're not going to talk aboutis divorce okay or not okay.
But we're saying if you cannotdo it, we understand.

(58:57):
And you we're not beatingyou up.
If you can't.
True. Very true.
And if she is consideringthat she wants to stay in
this marriage,she needs to ask yourself,
am I willing to go beyondjust recognizing traits of ASD
and then actually studyingand learning about how

(59:17):
his brain is wired differentlyand operates differently?
And I find thatand I did this to okay,
here are the traits here.
The symptoms of Asperger's.Check check check.
And then our immediate thoughtis get him into therapy
so that he could changeand be neurotypical.
And that's not going to work.
You really have gotto understand

(59:38):
how that brainis neurologically different.
And Karla,it's like you shared with us.
Nobody's going to go in there,reach into that brain
and turn it around,including God.
I have prayed for that.
Yes. It doesn't happened.
practical small
shiftsand adjustments can take place.

(01:00:00):
And then is she willing toaccept, like we've talked about,
that her relationshipis going to have a new normal.
It's going to be different
in the waythat communication takes place
and that he has a needfor self time.
And that's because of the highanxiety that they, daily
live with thathis wanting that alone time

(01:00:22):
doesn't mean thathe doesn't love her.
It doesn't mean thathis shutting her out,
he's got to like, reset,recompose himself,
and that dating and connecting
in atypical wayswill take place.
And Elizabethhas a little story here.
Well,

(01:00:43):
this isan example from my marriage
of where I kind ofhad to coach my husband.
So we were going outfor an anniversary dinner,
and I had to tell my husbandthat I need you to be rested
and happy and stopworking on what you're doing.
So you have downtimeto be ready to go out

(01:01:04):
and have a nice dinner.
For a neurotypical wife,that would probably be nagging,
but for a wifein a neurodiverse marriage,
she needs to accept thatshe may need to direct him
and that his responsesmay be robotic and programed,
rather than with the fluidity
that many neurotypical menmay exhibit.

(01:01:27):
But that would be kind ofa thing that you've come to
where you recognize.
I have to tell him
what I need or what is the way
that this situationis going to occur.
Like,I think you've said things like,
if you're in a
like a large groupor a family group that you might

(01:01:48):
have to say to him, pleasedon't talk about these subjects
because he may, not becauseone of the things that you know,
they have difficultywith is recognizing social cues.
And, they're likekind of awkward and off.
So you might want to say,
in, in this timewe're not going to talk
about this

(01:02:08):
or maybe his favorite subjectI've been with, Asperger's
men and womenwhere they get on something
and they don't get off of it,
and they just literally dominatethe entire conversation.
And everyone else is, like,bored and has lost interest,
and they're justcontinuing to go on,

(01:02:29):
and they're not picking upthose cues.
But the wife certainly is,and she's really uncomfortable.
So you may need to say, like,remember,
maybe don't bring this topic up,but when you bring up this,
only talk about itfor a few minutes
and then let other people talk.
Now, this isif he's willing to allow her
to say these things, gottento the place where you have more

(01:02:52):
that calm in the relationshipand there's more trust,
and there has been validation,we're probably you can say that.
And he would accept itor do a lot of Asperger's men.
Are they comfortablehearing things like that?
I think that
I think a lot of it depends onhow it's presented to them.

(01:03:13):
If it's donein a respectful manner,
like I know that you really wantto talk about that.
And basically, they're doing it
because they're trying to showthat we had a family gathering,
and I'm trying to be interactivewith these people
and trying to make conversationwith them.
They just missed that part that
going on too long, andand so if you kind of

(01:03:36):
talk to them about itbefore the, the event,
it kind of put some structuredguidelines in there to say,
if you get to talking too much,
I'm going to kind ofgive you a little tap on that.
And then you hopethat they remember that cue,
or you can just say, oh, excuse
me, honey,can you come over here?
I just need to speak with youa moment.
It just needs to be donerespectfully and kindly.

(01:03:58):
That's what they're looking for.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So there are five commonlove languages
that people have gifts, qualitytime,
affection, acts of service,and words of affirmation.
Do Asperger Aspergermen have the same
love languagesas neurotypical men?

(01:04:18):
yes and no.
Both menwill do acts of service,
and both types of mencan give gifts although gift
giving for an Aspieman can be very unique.
So I know that, Kathleen,you had mentioned before,
I remember thisthat, Cooper actually sets
a timer on his phoneto text you a love

(01:04:39):
text or an image.
And, and that issomething that he needs to do.
And a lot of women would say,well,
if you have to set a timer, it'smeaningless
if you have to have a reminder
that it doesn't comefrom your heart.
How do you accept thatas a message of love?
Well,I felt sorry for them because

(01:05:02):
this is what my heart desires.
You see, this is this is a partof my love language.
It's not his, but he'swilling to do that for me now.
He's willing to do itbecause he loves me.
That has meaning to it, Now,he was taught to do this again,
part of a therapy to understand.
Kathleen has a need for it,
because this is a wayyou can do this for her.

(01:05:25):
And it was awkwardat first for him.
He's gotten very good at it,
and he finds thecutest things to send to me.
But it does have meaning.
It has very deep meaning.
And this happened just recently.
A few days ago, there was a songhe found that
he really wanted to give to me,and he wrote up the words,

(01:05:45):
and some of the wordswere very kind of practical
and some of themwere very sentimental.
The practical was like, you'remy Tylenol to my headache.
And then some of them were justsweet.
Women who sangthe song had an endearing voice.
This song meant a lot to him.
And as I was reading,
watching the words as he playedthe song, I looked at him

(01:06:08):
and he actually had tearsin his eyes
and his heart was filled.
And I thought,
what woman wouldn’tmelt for something like this.
Again, done differently.
Yes. Presented differently,wrapped differently.
But oh my gosh, I savorevery little thing that he does.
Like that.
Yeah.
That's that sounds likea really cute thing to do.

(01:06:32):
What about thingslike parallel play?
Is that part of their lovelanguage?
Yes it is.
So examples of parallel playcould be like
watching a movieor chatting about a movie
together,doing projects together.
My husbandand I recently had done
some remodeling of a bathroom,and after a very long day,

(01:06:55):
my husband surprised meby turning on the radio
to a country musicstation, grabbing my hand
and asking me to do a twostep slow dance with him
in the bathroom?
The bathroom wasn't done yet,but in another area of there.
And it was just it for himto do that.
It just touched my heart,

(01:07:16):
just melted my heart like,no, tomorrow, because he's
communicating his lovelanguage to me.
And, he recognized that we hadput in a very long day
and was
basically saying to me, like,I appreciate and I love you.
Thank you for helping medo this.
And then I remember when I firstmet you that the dynamics

(01:07:39):
that you had in your marriage,not between him
and between the wayyou were reacting to him,
that would never have happened.
What? No, no. Absolutely not.
I mean, I would have never
I would have never even guessedin a thousand years
that he would bethat that we would be doing this

(01:08:02):
because apparently even it
yeah, it was more adversarialbecause you were bumping up
against himand trying to get him changed.
And yes, hurting withthe things that he was doing.
And you were taking itas though it was mean
and as though he was,you know, abusive.
And I'm not saying that
those meltdowns and wordsand things can't feel like that.

(01:08:25):
And sometimes they are abusive.
But, you were taking thatnegatively and it was
it was causing thereto be a lot of dissatisfaction
on your part,
but also a lot of distanceand a lack of connection.
So by doing these thingsthat we've suggested
and the principles that you'velearned, in my classes,
you have changedthe way you interact

(01:08:48):
with him and the perspectiveof your marriage,
which has opened that doorto allow things
like that to happen.
And I knowthat there's other women,
that have experienced thatin your group.
And, we'll talk aboutan example of that at the end.
But whatabout affection? Are they

(01:09:10):
do they do affection normally
or is there some differenceswith that?
Well, honestly, like like themarriages, it's like the men.
It can be different.
You know what I mean,there's yes and nos to that.
So affection such as bear hugs.
Some can be very robotic.
Some men are justthey're wired like that.

(01:09:33):
And then there are some menwhere maybe they're a little bit
less on the spectrum,but they're more natural.
Their approach feels natural.
It's not that robotic ness.
Okay.
And then what about unmasking?
Unmasking also can bevery different for each man.
But, there can be tears.

(01:09:55):
I've seen tears,which could be tears of joy.
There could be happy tears.
There could be sad tears.
I what do you mean by unmasking?
Unmasking?
So unmaskingfor an for an Asperger man
can be very difficult.
And when unmasking, meaningthey're taking the mask off,

(01:10:17):
it's like all of us.
We're we're we'rein that dating stage, right?
We all have our greathappy masks on.
We we put our best foot forwardin the dating stages.
And then later on maybe,hopefully we get married.
Then our mask comes off right.
And we're able to feel likewe can be relaxed

(01:10:40):
and be our more true,authentic self with that person.
We're not putting
this performance on for them,so to speak.
So with Aspie men,that's hard to do
because they alreadyhave the anxiety piece,
and then they probably have
a historyof maybe being, bullied or, or

(01:11:00):
or if they do or don't havea diagnosis feeling different.
So it's really coming down to doI trust this person enough
to take my mask off?
Are they still going to love meif I'm able to be vulnerable?
So that canit can look like that.
And so that one would

(01:11:21):
be him
somehowthat makes it a love language.
In that, however,he unmasks himself and shows you
a vulnerable side of him,
is actually a way of showingyou love.
Meaning I trust you enoughto allow you to see this.

(01:11:43):
And so you're saying a womanneeds to recognize that and take
that as a love gesture of,
wow, you are safe enough for methat I'm willing to show you
my vulnerable side.
Yes, yes, absolutely.

(01:12:04):
Okay.
What about, helpingwithout words by doing tasks?
Can you givesome examples of this?
I can give youan example of that.
So, I had been wanting
pull out drawers for the longesttime in my kitchen,
and, it did take a long time
because we havea very small kitchen.

(01:12:25):
And, so my husband wasactually able to measure and he,
I remember him telling me thathe had been looking literally
for over a yearfor pull out drawers,
and he finally was ableto track it down
and go online and find a companythat would be able to,
have them deliveredto our house.

(01:12:46):
He had to install them himself,which he was great at doing.
But when he did that,that just brought me such
great joy, as an active service.
And I just I still cherish thatto this day.
So just most Aspie men,not all of them, are task
oriented because of their theirhow their brain is wired.

(01:13:10):
But if you can just look for
and just lookfor those little things,
or see those little thingswhen they're doing their tasks
and recognizing that giving themback words of affirmation,
thank you for doing that.
I appreciate it.
It goesit really does go a long way.
And I've heard you say thatwhen you have a very long day,
that your husband has dinnerready when you get home,

(01:13:33):
and sometimesnot just buying it,
but actually making it,and that you recognize that
as part of his love languagethat he's actually recognizing.
You had a long day and he'shelping you by making dinner.
And rather than it might
just be like,oh, well, he's got dinner ready.
You're like, wow, he he loves meand he cares about me.

(01:13:53):
He was thinking about me.
So it is a mindset whereyou recognize those things.
It is absolutely.
And he's very intentional abouthe will send me a text and say
can you let me know what timeyou're going to be home.
And I,
I mean there's been times I'veliterally walked in the door
and the dinner is preparedand it's ready to go and it's

(01:14:17):
for me, it was intentional,because he wanted to do that.
What about some unusual gifts?
My most unusual giftI had when I were first.
And I had to learn to, like,not touch something
or compliment it becauseif I did, it found its way home
in a surprise.
And. And like, in a storelike that,

(01:14:39):
if you looked at a topor a blouse
or a jacket in a storeand then you would,
oh, that's pretty,then you'd get it.
Well, this isthis is a good example.
Cooper had a podiatrics seminar
in BeverlyHills, and I went with him.
And during a break,we went shopping at Gary’s
Rodeo Road or whatever streetit was.
You know, the beautiful crystaland silver or whatever.

(01:14:59):
And on the shelfwas this crystal milk jug,
a veryexpensive piece of crystal.
And I picked it upand I thought was,
who would ever buy this thing?
It's so heavy.
And look at the price tag on it.
Well, it came Christmasand there was this box from
Gary's wrapped up to the tree,and I opened it up

(01:15:20):
and it was this milk jug.
Oh my.
And it sits in my China cabinetand I just go buy it and go,
I am so loved.
Wow. Yeah.
And we have women.
We were just talking about thisa group.
And one woman said,

(01:15:40):
well, I got gardening suppliesand the wheelbarrow,
and, and and realizingthat our men are very practical,
Task orientedand so they're going to
look in that direction or,there's some things that,
that that man findsvery attractive
and he'll think, oh,I'd like to see my wife in that.
Now, she may not want to bewearing that,

(01:16:02):
but that's not how he sees it.
Well, it gets wrapped up in it,gets delivered to her.
But these are acts of love. Wow.
And so
definitely not reducingthat husband to childhood.
But you remember when we,our children made
those little gifts in schooland brought them,
we treasured those exactlykind of the same thing.

(01:16:23):
I know the same thing.
Okay.
So and then I think you've
also mentioned something calledinformation dumping where,
a wife may feel overwhelmed
with all the informationthat he dumps on her,
but recognize that when he does an information
dump that that also can be,act of love.

(01:16:43):
It could be a love languageof him saying,
I'm willing to trust youwith all of this.
And so when you get one of these
information dumps, ratherthan feeling overwhelmed by it
or annoyed by it, that youaccept it as a compliment.
Yes. Okay,
so wecould talk for two more hours.

(01:17:06):
I'm certain about thingsthat we, can suggest
that have been helpful for you
and the women in your groupor that are helpful.
But we're going to wrap it up
with a testimony just recentlyfrom a woman in your group
who gave permissionto share this,
abouthow all this comes together
when you restoreyour sense of self.

(01:17:27):
Right?
Her name is Pauline,and she came to our group
about four years ago.
She was wounded from childhoodand married
to an Aspie,and her heart was hurting.
She was in tears.
And we started herby taking the wounds class.
And then she took truthin the mirror
and then went on to thrivingand difficult marriages,

(01:17:49):
the ten principles.
And she worked her way
through codependencyand relationship dependency.
And she is a nature personlike you're talking about.
She likes to get out thereand hike
has been a really doesn'thave much interest in that.
But he supports her in it.
And she started by thinking,what?
Unless we share
the same activityand we can both feel the same,

(01:18:12):
then it'snot going to mean much to her.
And we're saying, well, there'sanother way to to look at this.
Well, she went on to this hike,not long ago.
And then she wrote usthis message and she said,
I could not have followedthrough on this trip
without the loveand support of my husband.
I know he missed mebecause he changed the sheets

(01:18:32):
on my bed, bought me flowersand cleaned the house.
I accepted the factthat his love language
is doing things for me,not using words.
We are both learning to accepteach other for who we are.
So she is no longerdepending on her husband
to share in the same interestas she has.

(01:18:53):
She is finding joy for herself
and going on to bewith her girlfriends
and not feeling guiltyfor doing so.
And so what we see is her growthand restoration
of her sense of self.
Now, with now,what her husband is able
to offer to herbecomes meaningful to her.
And this is this is such a goodexample of what we experience.

(01:19:18):
It brings Elizabethand I a lot of joy.
And we hear thisfrom other women too,
who have been able to find likea, a neurodiverse, therapist
and the woman is that
we were at our witt’s end she
I didn't know that this marriagewould continue.
But working with this therapist,I now have compassion

(01:19:39):
for my husband
that touches my heart.
Because for so many years,I had such contempt for Cooper.
Now I have that compassionand love for him.
Yes.
And I would think that
even if a woman isn'twith the neurodiverse therapist,
just by being in a groupor by reading and understanding

(01:19:59):
more about the neurodiverse man,
that she would also getthat compassion
right, which is criticalto not instead of that judgment
and blame like you talked about,that she has compassion
and understanding and acceptancethat he is different
and that the marriagewill be different,

(01:20:21):
but that when she moves intothat acceptance, she looks at
just like this woman.
She finds ways to be healthywithin the marriage,
and there may be thingsthat they find
that they can do togetheras in all marriages.
I mean, in my marriage,my husband and I
have very different,a lot of different interests.

(01:20:42):
He hunts.
I could spend every dayof my life at the beach.
And, I often, you know, like,I go to Hawaii
for a couple of weeksa year by myself
because he doesn't have time.
He comes for a week,but he doesn't have time to stay
the whole time.
So I stayed longerto get my beach fix
and my Hawaii fix,and we're okay with that.

(01:21:04):
He goes on his hunting trips
and no, I don't wantto go hunting with him.
And that's okay.
But when we think we have to be
the same,we experience that frustration.
So I think that's really,really powerful.
And I know that each of youhave expressed many, different,
outcomes that you havein your own marriages
from applying these principles.

(01:21:24):
And I,
I didn't know you, Kathleen,before you did these things,
but I did know Elizabethand I have seen a huge change
and Elizabeth and a huge changein Elizabeth's life
from doing the same.
So there is hope,like we talked about.
That is the bottom line.
There is hope.
It's just goingto come differently.

(01:21:45):
Yes, it'sgoing to look different.
So well, we havehad a very lengthy discussion,
but I am thrilledwith the practical help
that I think that we bothhave been able to,
offer to women that are marriedto Aspergers men.
And let's just sayif there's a man listening
to this who's marriedto an Asperger's Asperger women

(01:22:07):
woman, that these thingswill also be helpful
in their marriage.
It's just
you deal with mostly women,so just make it easy
to have a conversation.
We made it
where the woman
was the neurotypical and the manwas the neurodiverse.
But there are more menthat do have neurodiversity,
neurodiverse brains than women.

(01:22:31):
Statistics will show that.
So there is definitely morewomen coming
into, counselor's offices,that are struggling with this.
And it's becoming very common.
It's like a, absolutelike explosion of the number
of diagnosis of Asperger'swe've had in the last.
What is it, 20 years? Yes.

(01:22:51):
As of 2025,in the state of California,
which the three of usare in, 1 in 22 children
at the age of four yearsold has been diagnosed with ASD.
I heard that it could be even
as as much as 1 in 12
the other day, butmaybe I was reading something
and you see it.
See this?
This is interestingto just to wrap this up,

(01:23:11):
our neurotypical woman say,well,
he's got to do more workbecause there's more of us
neurotypicalthan there are neurodiverse.
And I'm like,
I'd kind of hold my breath
on that onebecause the numbers are closing
and those margins aren'tas large as they used to be.
And these are just children
that are being diagnosedand if you know that the,

(01:23:33):
the autism spectrum disorderis 80 to 90% genetic.
You know, that mom and dador grandma, grandpa
or somebody in the family
is carrying this gene,which adds to the population.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, well, thank youboth for taking this time to
I know you spent timeputting the presentation

(01:23:54):
togetherand and you worked on it.
So I appreciate all the effortthat you've put into this
as well as the time.
And we actually recorded thisthe other day
and I forgot to pressrecord too.
So this is a take two.
And I'm actually really happywith our take two.
I think we did a better job.

(01:24:15):
And so,God works in mysterious ways,
but, thank you for having us back
and allowing us to sharewith the women.
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So.
All right,
thank you
for listening to this podcaston Change My Relationship.
Please write to me at, Karlaat ChangeMyRelationship.com.

(01:24:35):
If you have questions about thisor if you need more help
in being referredto the, private Facebook
group, My Aspie and Meor anything else.
So, and I can also saythat you're welcome
to join my classes at any time,which many women have done,
including Elizabethand Kathleen.
Too if there isn't somethingoffered
within the Facebook groupat that particular time,

(01:24:58):
women find it very helpfulto get the same classes
through meand work on those skills.
Even though it's notwithin your group.
So, please let write me,let me know.
Also, I we'd love to hearhow this helped you and how
this has been something that'sbeen, a huge benefit to you.
So God bless you.
And please, please share thiswith, other people that you know

(01:25:21):
that are strugglingand an Asperger's marriage.
And, let us knowif there's anything else. Yes.
And may I just share thatif you're interested
in joining our groupas a support group,
when we receive your request,we will be responding
back to youvia your Facebook message.
So make sure that messengeris turned on

(01:25:42):
or you check Facebook messagefor our response to you.
Got it?
Yes, because you
can find them on Facebookby looking at My Aspie
and Meand sending them a message.
So all right, God bless youand we look forward to
having you at the next ChangeMy Relationship podcast.
Thank you Karla.
Thank you.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.

(01:26:04):
We hope you will subscribeto these podcasts
and share themwith your friends.
Karlawould love to hear from you.
She welcomes
ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helpedyour life and relationships.
You can email her at.
[e-mail]
For more information on

(01:26:24):
Change My Relationship and KarlaDowning's ministry,
including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.