Interview: I Forgave the Unforgivable

Rose Larson has been through things none of us want to go through: betrayal, divorce, a son's suicide, and another son's addiction and incarceration. She describes what she encountered and how God enabled her to rise above the pain and forgive the unforgivable. Forgiveness, especially for the big life-changing things, isn't easy to do, and yet, it is possible.        Hearing others' stories gives us a new perspective of our own. We learn from others experience, strength, and hope. One of the places Rose found support was through Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon. You will also hear how those programs helped her and the tools they offer. Listen to Rose's unbelievable journey where she forgave the unforgivable.   Helpful Links:    Alcoholics Anonymous:https://www.aa.org/ Al-Anon Family Groups:https://al-anon.org/ Celebrate Recovery: https://celebraterecovery.com/   Website: https://www.changemyrelationship.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ChangeMyRelationship YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@changemyrelationship

Watch this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/hFjJDNziWjI

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.

(00:29):
Welcome to Change My Relationship podcast.
Today we're going to be talking aboutforgiving the unforgivable.
How do you take a very, very difficult,
traumatic and painful experienceand work through forgiveness?
Today we have Rose Larson with us

(00:50):
and she is going to bejust really vulnerable
and honest about a very painful thingthat happened in her life
and how she worked through that.
And I think you're going to growto love her as much as I do.
She's a great friend. So welcome, Rose.
Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
So thank you for being willingto be so vulnerable and open.

(01:13):
And I know your heart is the same as mine.
And that is to help peoplewith our experience, strength and hope.
Absolutely.
It's my life journey for sure.
Okay, so we're going to be talkingabout your son's suicide.
So I'm just goingto let people know that from the top.
The top unless and just in case,that's a really painful subject

(01:36):
for themthat they're not ready to listen to.
How you worked through thatand were able to forgave
forgive your husband, yourwhat would actually your ex-husband, maybe
even your son and yourself and any othersthat had anything to do with that.
So, if that's a real painful topicthat you can't listen to,

(01:57):
then maybe come back to this or wait,just wait until you're ready.
But let's go ahead.
Tell me about John's childhood.
Well, John was just a pretty happy
little boy, He, was in Cub Scouts.
He was in, Little League.
You know, he was very active in school.
And just very carefree,sweet little child.

(02:20):
I never would anticipate. He.
He liked to protect his friends.
And, he always was,just real playful teasing.
just enjoyed life.
He was a it was a sweet kid.
I do remember, though, like, evenas a little boy one time riding his bike,
and wesomething happened where we almost fell
and we were laughing as a familyjust because it was funny.

(02:44):
And he got really offended. And he.
I remember him stopping his bikeand grabbing like a yucca plant
and threatening to kill himselfin its weirdest like.
And we were like, well,no, we're not making fun of you.
We're justit was just, like you tripped and.
Oh, I'm sorry, honey,but I do remember him
having this sensitivity, and he definitelywas sensitive as a child.

(03:07):
And he didn't, he didn't alwaystake things the way they were presented.
So it wasn't as lighthearted.
It kind of was a little serious,especially when it came
to, that kind of a thing.
Like we were not laughing at him,but he didn't have, depression
or anxiety as a young child.
No, not at all.
He was super playfuland just really a sweet kid.

(03:30):
And of course, my husbandand I had a good relationship with him.
we each had a lot of joy.
He brought a lot of joy to our family.
And. Okay.
And then, what about his teen years?
Well, as he began to become a teen,my husband
and I were startingto have a bigger disconnect.
And I think it's because,my husband was not a believer.

(03:54):
And so, when John was little,
I started taking him to church,and we did church camps,
and he was in Bible study, and,we did a lot of church activities.
And so I started joining women'sBible studies.
So we kind of like our paths startedgoing different directions.
And so my husband wasn't, in sync with me.

(04:16):
So there was a lot of,
I guess we were living two differentlives in a way, and just had moments
that we were together,but it was very superficial.
I think John started sensingthere was a change,
and he was very concernedabout his father's salvation.
And we were in prayer that his fatherwould come to know the Lord. And

(04:38):
and I
think his father,we became more successful in business,
and he became more worldly,and he was heading more
that direction,trying to, a lot of accomplishments,
a lot of, travel and, luxury type thingsand, and,
we were doing more of the churchactivities and, and at one point,

(05:00):
my husband wanted us to move to Mexicojust because he wanted to be in Mexico.
And, that would be such a culture shock.
John was not Mexican.
I mean, I guess physically was.
But as far as his mind, he's Americanand he didn't even speak Spanish.
I mean, he was in Spanish class, but,and he just like we both were like,

(05:22):
no, we're not moving to Mexico.
And he wanted me to change my citizenship.
And so we were starting to havesome arguments about that kind of stuff.
And so my husband was really,wanting a different life at that time.
And John sensed it, and he knew.
And he's very sensitive.
I guess that was that'swhat I saw as a little boy, too.

(05:43):
He could sense something wasn'tgoing right in our in our marriage.
And even though we tried to pretendeverything was wonderful
and we wasn't,yeah, kids can tell they pick up on a lot.
Even little children,it's just really young children.
I, I you've heard my story.
When I was three,

(06:04):
I stood up to protect my momagainst my dad when he would get violent.
I mean, he was drunk
and it's like when I was two,I said to my mom, like, this isn't right.
Daddyshouldn't yell at you. And it's like,
Where does that come from?
It's just we just we sense it.
We know.
We sense emotions,even babies sense motions.

(06:24):
But being a sensitive,probably a highly sensitive person
and by temperamentmakes it even even worse.
So, so you you talked a little bitabout in your marriage
that you were gettinga little bit of a distance,
so would you consider itto be like, dysfunctional,
or was it just that you were kind of,they had some, disconnect between you?

(06:47):
It was definitely dysfunctional.
I mean, when I was in it, I thought,oh, we're just trying to be like.
Like I always thought, oh,we're just going to try to make dad happy.
And then if dad's happy, we're happy.
But we never addressed his anger issues.
He had a lot of anger.
And, he was like, he ruled the house.

(07:08):
And, that was extremely dysfunctional.
And I think John sensed that that,it wasn't fair, it wasn't balanced.
And I became, lessand less with the voice.
And he ruled the roadroost with, a very hard hand.
And you had to get straightA's, there was all these
and you had to accomplish you had to.

(07:29):
And I think that John started seeingthat this was not healthy.
and his anger was so explosive,like he would just
overreact to things that were so small.
And John became very sensitive about thatand very concerned.
I remember one timeI was really trying to get in shape, and
I was going walking early in the morningwith the girls, and I told John,

(07:53):
get up in the morning, get your breakfast,you know, is teaching him
how to get his own breakfastand get things going.
And I'mgoing to be walking with the girls.
And then when I get home,we'll get everything together in the car.
And his dad, I guess, had just gotten back
from town and didn't realize our system.
And so he became extremely angrythat I wasn't making breakfast.

(08:15):
I wasn't taking care of the family.
He wasn't in the loop.
And when I came home, he got so angry,
he almost pushed me down the stairscoming up to the door.
And so we got into
almost like a physical problemand he was kind of like pushing me.
And I think he thought I was interestedin one of the neighbors or something.

(08:37):
I don't know, it was really bizarre.
And my son asked me on the way to school,
mom, are you going to have to divorce dad?
So he knew thatthat was not appropriate, right?
It wasn't even
correct,
but Phil had a lot of,maybe because he was having an affair.
I didn't know it at the time, but,you know.

(08:57):
Projection. Yeah.
So you're the one having the affairyou project it on others?
I think he was thinking that way becauseof what he was doing and exactly that.
That's common. Or it can be like,I want to.
It could even be manipulative if, like,if I accuse her,
then when she accuses me, I can just go.

(09:18):
No, it's you. Like,what are you talking about?
Yeah.
So, it's really more abuse than it wasanger, because, I mean, that's obviously
a more than just an irritable,angry person that sounds like abusive.
Like he definitely was abusive.
And when that physical thing happened,I did go to counseling and I ended up,

(09:40):
putting up, like, the counselor helped meput a bigger boundary on him.
And I told them that that ever happenedagain, that he would have to leave.
You know, I wouldn't tolerate that.
So then he started the silent scorn stuff.
Or he wouldn't talk to me for days.
I'll be in react with physical,but he mentally would,

(10:00):
not talk to me or not talk to Johnif John didn't get a good grade on his,
or he didn't approve of something.
With my older sonespecially, he would just,
he would yell and scream,not physically hurt us, but mentally. Yes.
Very abusive mentally.
Yeah.
Which is really hard on kidsand really affects so

(10:24):
when did the drug use start?
Because I know that there was drug use.
Well, when John was about, oh, 16, well,
our marriage went south,as you'd already heard.
And when I found outabout the other woman, that was it for me.
That was the deal breaker for me.

(10:44):
But we were at that point
living in a big house, lot of expenses.
So we decided I would movein a different bedroom,
you know, and we would kind of be separateunder the same roof kind of thing.
And so we were kind of separated
and, and John had becomeseverely depressed through that.

(11:06):
He couldn't even get out of bed.
And it was really scary to me.
And his dad would take off, he'd be gonefor, two weeks and and he'd be gone.
But I was really struggling with John'sdepression, I didn’t know what to do.
I couldn't get him out of bed.
I wanted, he was at Orange Lutheran High
and I was trying to get his assignments,and I was doing all this stuff.

(11:27):
And, so
I think what
happened is I it kind of came later.
I got him into counseling,and then the doctor gave him
a very low dose of antidepressant,and it actually helped.
And at that point, we were already atphysically different homes.

(11:49):
He did move.
We used to own a ranch,so he moved to the ranch.
And so at that point,John was doing better.
He was functioning.
He was actuallyand I asked my mom to move in.
So we have some semblance of family.
And so he's actually doing better.
But then once he found outthat John was taking
anti-depressants, he got very angry.

(12:09):
And he just said, we don't do that.
You know, we smoke pot.
That's what we do.
And he introduced our son to pot.
So that's kind of how it started it.
And I didn't know it because he didn'ttell me and I didn't know what was going
on. But he threw away his antidepressant.
And then pretty soonhe stopped going to counseling,

(12:29):
and his counselor called me and said,your son didn't didn't come,
and I'm going to have to charge youanyway.
But, And then I asked John,why aren't you going?
And then finally the truth came outthat his dad had, done that.
And, then I was like,oh no, now he's on pot.
And so we're going to counseling.
So it was kind of like this battlewe were in of philosophies

(12:53):
where my husband, told his son,your mom's crazy.
She believes in that therapy stuff.
she she's, you just need to get your acttogether, don't listen to her.
She doesn't have the right solution.And then I was over there.
No, you need counseling.
So he was kind of in this terrible placeof in between my husband and I.

(13:15):
It was not good for him.
it's like I was in the church.
I'm trying to follow God.
I'm trying to do counseling.I'm trying to get help.
And he is dad.
And it's like,
no, we get our act together, we work hard,we get, good grades and we smoke pot.
the the one at
the end does not seem to go togetherwith all the other stuff.

(13:35):
You work hard, get good grades, do whatyou're supposed to do, but smoke pot.
So yeah. Which pot?
I mean, this is how many years agohe was about 16.
And that was back.
He would have been 40 this year. So.
Yeah.
And it's so wow, 2002 or 2001.

(13:55):
Yeah.
Okay. So yeah.
So pot was still pretty strong back then.
Stronger today.
But I mean that was still pretty strong.
Pot which has a pretty you can be addictedto it and especially psychologically.
But you can even as pot gets got strongerphysical addiction
was more and more common.

(14:16):
So now the addiction got
pretty bad then along with the depression,because I know
you battled with this for how many yearswith between those four years?
Yeah, four years. I battle with him.
we're
trying recovery,but he hasn't gotten into recovery yet.
What had happened is he, his fatherwas away, and we used to own a ranch.

(14:39):
So he'd go to the ranch to visit hisgrandpa and hang out and kind of fun.
Had horses in.
And he met a bunch of his friends therefrom, his Orange Lutheran high school.
And I had didn't know those friends.
They weren't his Little League friendsor his church friends.
They were new friends.
And, when they came home from the ranch

(15:00):
and they were acting really strangeand I thought they were drunk.
And I was like,oh my gosh, they've been drinking.
And I didn't really know what to do.
And I remember calling somebodyand asking me, and she goes, well,
if they've been drinking,you need to confront them.
And so I did,and I realized it wasn't just alcohol.
They had taken somethingthat was hallucinogenic,

(15:22):
and it turned out to be jimsonroot, is a slang term.
They call ithell's bells, and it is actually poison.
Like, if a cow eats it, it dies.
Yeah, that's how bad it is.
And so they were all hallucinatingand they couldn't talk.
And it was just.

(15:42):
So I called nine one one, and all four ofthe boys went to different hospitals.
And John was in a comafor like two weeks.
Oh my gosh, and wasn't even coherent.
And I realized that he was in big trouble.
And so I made a decision that he was going
to need to go directlyfrom the hospital to a program.

(16:05):
And so his father came from Mexico
and was furious with me.
Like, I somehow made this happen.
And my brother kind of protected me
from my ex at the hospital.
But apparently,he told John that that I was the problem.

(16:26):
Like, I always was the problem.
And so he told John,we're going to kick your mom
out of the house,and I'm going to bring my girlfriend
in, and we're going to be a family,and she's just going to have to,
do her own thing,and we're going to make this work. And.
But John didn't really want that.
But when I went in, I didn't knowthat conversation had happened.

(16:46):
So when I went to talk to him, of course,I come with,
well, we're going to do counselingand you need to get into our program.
We need help.
And he just looked at meand says, no, mom, I'm going to do na.
I going to,don't worry, mom, I'm going to get sober.
I'll do my, and I just said, no, John,you almost died.
This was really serious.
You were in a coma for two weeks.
This is you need more help.

(17:08):
And I have a program.An adolescent program.
That'll be really good for you.
It'll be good for our family.
We'll be able to get some help.
And then he turned on me,
and I'll never forget it,because it was right around Thanksgiving.
And he just said, you know what, mom?
I'm going.
I'm going with my dad,and we're kicking you out.
And I was like, what?
And he said, yeah, he talked to me,we're kicking you out of the house.

(17:31):
So I'm not doing no program,and you're going to be on the street.
And it was so hurtful.
I just was like flabbergasted.
And I said, well,
I love you enough to make you get help,and I'm not leaving the house.
And that's going to behow it needs to happen, son,
because we can't just go backlike nothing happened.

(17:51):
you need help.
And so I left the hospitaljust like a train wreck,
like, oh, my gosh,I can't believe that this is happening.
And so right after that, his dad
moved him on to the ranchwith, mobile home.
So he now he has, free rein on the ranchin a mobile home.

(18:11):
And so he wouldn't talk to me after that.
And I used to see himbecause the the neighborhood we lived in,
my housewasn't that far away from the ranch.
It was in Chino Hills.
And so he wouldsometimes drive out the driveway
and I'd be driving outand we'd both be at the gate,
and he forI go, this is just the most horrible time.

(18:32):
I don't think I talked to him againtill Easter.
Wouldn’t talk to me all that Christmas,all those months.
He was just really angry.
But his dadpretty much left him to himself.
And the drugs got worse.
And he progressed into methand it was just
so tragic and so horrible right then.

(18:53):
That's guaranteed addiction because it'sthat's very, very, very addictive.
And it messes with their brains.
So their brains are not the same.
It does permanent damage and, yeah.
And then, All,uh all kinds of other things.
So, so that kept going.
And then I know at some pointhe got back to your house

(19:14):
for a little whilebecause I know he you had to make it.
You had to make a decisionto ask him to leave.
Right.
Well, I'd asked him to leave.
Really? At the hospital.
at that point and then,right after he was in the mobile home,
he, at that point knew I mean,it was clear because we had conversations
that you can't live with meif you're going to be doing drugs.

(19:37):
And so that was kind of the rule.
And he knew that that was the rule.
So he just wasn't willing at that point,
but then, I did have a couple of moments,
when one really good moment was his dadI went to, ask if I could visit with him.
And so his dad let me,and he was just in his room depressed.

(19:58):
And when I went in there, he said, mom,I don't dad's going to take me to Mexico
because we had a business in Mexico,fishing business.
And I said, oh, wow,that's a big change for you.
I said, is that what you want to do?
And he said, no, I don't want to do that,and I need I need you to do something.
And so I said, okay, well, I'll have totalk to your dad about it and think about.

(20:23):
But you know my rule.
You know that you can't use drugsand be at my house.
And he goes, yeah,I'm willing to get sober.
So I talked to my counselorand they helped me how to, do it,
how to talk to my ex.
And I was so afraid to talk to him.
But I showed up one day.
I had the power of God.
And I went in there and I said,you're not taking him to Mexico.

(20:45):
He's a minor.
I'm not going to allow youto take him to Mexico.
And John's willing to get sober,and he's coming with me now
grabbed his stuff.
Got him in the car,drove him home, and he was like,
thank you, mom, thank you mom.
And we got back into counselingand he started doing better
for a little while again.
And he had a joband he was trying to go to school,

(21:07):
but the addiction and the addictionhad gotten Ahold of him at that.
Yeah.
So that was, the back and forth.
And so when I discoveredhe was using again,
I had to put that boundary again.
And so he took offand he went back to the ranch.
And so I lost him again for a while.

(21:28):
Yeah.
And then he had a suicide attemptthat was unsuccessful.
What happened with that?
He was at the ranch, and,he had gotten really bad.
And so he, I guess had punched the windowor something, and he had hurt himself.
And so his dad called me to tellme that he kicked him out

(21:49):
and to not let him stay with me.
And I said, well, where is he?
He said I don't know.
So I, I just went into prayer.
I was so panicky.
And so he showed up at my houseand I said, oh, you're here?
And he says, yeah, yeah, I'm here.
And he says, mom,just let me spend the night.
Just let me spend the night.

(22:09):
And, I'll get it together tomorrow.
But I didn't know how bad it wasat that point.
Because he didn't come
till the middle of the night,what had happened is he took off,
and then he, kicked out for some reasonmy pool equipment.
God works in mysterious way.
I went out to my pool equipment.I came back in.
I always had the alarm on, and forwhatever reason, I didn't lock that door.

(22:33):
So he came in and like, two in the morningand the alarm went off.
And so I'm like, oh, no,someone's in the house.
And I ran to the toto where the alarm system is and it's him.
And he had all these like, like things
in his hair, like leaves and stuffand it was so bizarre.
Anyway,he's trying to figure out the code.

(22:54):
And I said, oh,I got the code. Don't worry.
I'll call the alarm company.
You're here. I'm so glad you're safe.
He goes, mom, I just need to sleep.
I promise in the morningI'll talk to you about getting sober.
I, I I'm done.
And but I didn't knowhe had an attempt at that point.
I didn't know it.
And so he went to bed,

(23:15):
and in the morning,I woke him up and, talked to the counselor
about getting an emergency appointmentand getting him into something.
And so when he woke up,I heard the bathroom.
So I went in thereand he was washing his hands,
and then I saw the bloodrunning down his arms.
His. His wrist.
I was like, oh my gosh, what did you do?

(23:37):
Oh my gosh, what did you do?
And he goes, I'm okay.
I just I just need to cleanup. I'm going, don't worry.
I'm going to get out of here.
I go, no, you need help.
And it was just this craziness.
And so we had this nightmarewhere he ran away, took his car,
I took my
car, ran after just like a speed chase.

(23:58):
And then the heli, I called the police.
The helicopters are aroundlooking for him.
I found his car, but not him.
So then I took went to get.
I had to get keys made for his car,get his car, put it in my garage
and I'm waiting for him.
Trying to.
They're looking for himwith the helicopter
and about four in the afternoon,he finally shows up.
This has been going on since that morning.

(24:20):
And when he shows up,he goes, okay, you got me.
I'm ready to get some help.
And then he told me this wild storythat it was kind of cold.
So it was like this, like maybe February,March somewhere in there.
But it was cold.
And he had attempted to die, and he said,
you know, I was already dad kicked me out.

(24:40):
I was in the Coyote Hill, which is kind ofin the the area where I lived.
It was in the hills, and Iand I took the knife and I cut myself
and I thought, good,I can finally be done with this.
And he goes, I passed out, but mom,
I woke upand the coyotes were dragging me,

(25:00):
and I jumped up and I realizedI didn't want to die getting eaten.
I don’t think I heard that part.
He started running and he goes, andI realized you were just over the hill.
So I ran over and I.
And I started checking all the doorsand that one door's open.
And I said, well, how did you not bleed?
He goes, well,I don't know. It clogged up.

(25:21):
So I think the coldness,
coagulated the, the cuts and so
God spared his life.
I mean, unbelievable story.
And so at that point, I said, okay, well,
I have to tell your dad that you're okaybecause he's very concerned.
And he goes, I hate him, I hate him.
And anyway, so I called his dad.

(25:43):
Of course, his dad rushes over.
So we're all sitting in our patiowaiting for the 5150, right?
They're going to come.
And so we're waiting for that
and we're talking and, his dad says,why do you do this?
Why do you do this?
And so then John just said, well,don't worry, I'm going to get some help,
you know, and I, I'm saying, yes, honey,that's what we need.

(26:05):
We need help,that's what we've always needed.
And his dad was just so angry.
He just looked at him and said,you don't even know how to do that, right?
You can't even kill yourself, right?
What you're supposed to do is use a gun
and you're supposedto blow your brains out.
Don'tyou know that's how you kill yourself?
And I went into justwhat kind of father are you?

(26:27):
And I'm screamingand I'm crying hysterically.
It was a scene.
And then John just said,I'll tell you why.
I'll tell you why.
Because of both of you.
It's it's all your fault.
It's both your faults.
And, boy,did I feel so much shame, so much despair.
Just so horrible.
And then they came and got him.

(26:47):
And he went into a programand he had a bout of sobriety,
he started his journeyin trying to get well,
but I honestly thinkthere was something more to it.
And there's
now today, because I work as a peersupport specialist at a wellness center.
So I work with mental illness.
And one of the thingsthat they're starting to realize

(27:08):
is that people that usemeth can actually have,
schizophrenia induced.
It's it's, a psychotIt's a drug induced psychosis from.
Yeah.
To where that. Is that what you meanthat?
Yeah.
He was hearing voices.
Yeah. Yes.
That is, is very common with meth.

(27:32):
And so those voices were plaguing him.
And even though he was sobernobody knew what to do about the voices.
We didn't.
That was a long time ago.
As to almost 20 years ago.
And so they were just trying to give him12 step AA when he needed more.
Yeah. Absolutely.

(27:53):
He needed medication. Yeah. Yeah totally.
And then how did the secondsuicide attempt come about.
Well it was about a year laterand he had been working a program.
He actually was getting better.
And then he had a relapse.
I think his dad gave him hot browniesone time, and he tested dirty.

(28:16):
And so then his dad gets an apartment,and then he,
he used to throw money at him,and it just was so destructive.
And, Bill and I were trying hard to help.
And that's my my husbandand I met during that interim,
from church,and we were really praying about
should we bring him back inif he's trying to get sober?
We were praying about what to do about it.

(28:38):
And then he got he called Bill and I,and he said, I'm ready.
I'm ready to do program again.
So he got into a sober houseand he was actually had a job.
He was in sober living.
He was actually telling his storyin a panel, and he was actually doing
pretty good,except the depression was still there.
He was still depressed.
And I think he needed that extra helpthat we just didn't know about,

(29:02):
that he needed.
And so, that second time,
he, I thoughtI thought there's an answer to prayer.
There's a miracle he's he's goingto, be the example
of of God working in his life.
And, I talked to himlike, the Thursday before.
He actually committed suicide.

(29:23):
And he was angry with his dad.
He had an argument with his dad,and I don't even know why.
It was something about his dadcalling his house manager.
And and he was just so angry.
And John was saying, I'm sick of it.
he's trying to cause me trouble, and I'mjust doing what I'm supposed to do.
And he was just worked up.

(29:45):
And so I spent about an hour talkingto him, and I said, honey, you know what?
Maybe your dad's a little toxic for you.
Maybe you just need to take a little breakright now.
I mean, we can still pray for your dad,But he's not good for you right now,
And I want to go to school,and I can't afford it.
I said, Bill and I will help you, but,why don't you start with, like,

(30:06):
one art class? Because he was an artist.
And just get your feet wet.
Just get going with oneclass, we'll help you
and Bill and I have been talking aboutmaybe bringing him back in the home.
it was just in that weird area, and he,that Thursday night, I talked to him
for, like, an hour and a half,maybe an hour probably an hour and a half.

(30:27):
And by the end of the conversation,we prayed together.
He sounded more calm.
He sounded more hopeful.
He was excited aboutmaybe trying school again,
and that he knew we were going to help himand we hung up.
I love you, I love you, and
and then
Saturday, or no, Friday night,he went to go see my brother,

(30:47):
and he was with some old friendsand they had, come to my brother's house,
and my brother didn't let him stay,and he let him go.
And apparently his friends
had been using something,but John seemed sober.
It my brother said it was.
Maybe he drank,but it didn't seem like on anything.

(31:10):
And he told my brother, are we okay?
Are we cool?
Are we cool? And he said, yeah,we're cool.
I just can't let you stay here.
And so he left.
So my brother called me Saturday and said,have you seen John?
Have you heard from.I said, well, he's working today.
I said, why?
Because, well I stopped by last night.
I say, did

(31:31):
and so we
didn't know where he was exactly,but I knew he was supposed to be at work.
So I started calling him,just call me after you get off work. And.
But I had a bad feeling. I really did.
But I just kept praying.
And his brother,my older son, was very active
in church and had found the Lordand was very involved with Bible study.

(31:51):
He was heading to the beach,so he had passed by the ranch and he said
it was like the Holy Spirit or like thisvoice telling him, go to the ranch.
Your brother needs help.
And he didn't go because he was late,because he knew it's
John was supposed to be working,and he knew John wasn't at the ranch.
Or we thought, yeah, but it turned outthat after my brother rejected him,

(32:15):
he and his friends went to the ranchand he broke in.
There was a we have a littlewe had two houses on the ranch
and he broke into his grandpa's place,the bottom, place.
And his friends and him stayed there.
And then the morning his friends askedhim, hey, John, you want a ride?
I know you have to work.
He goes, No,man, I'm just going to stay here.

(32:36):
I'm just going to wait for my grandpaand my dad.
They're coming home.
And they said, okay.
You sure? And they agreed.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm
sure it wasn't going to work now,I called in, I was going to wait here.
And then I guess the.
We had a horse that needed attention,so the vet came so the vet knew had
knocked on the door about noon, and Johnanswered and said, oh, they're not home.

(33:00):
You'll have to come back Monday,don't come back because I'm leaving.
I'm going to work.
So he told the vet he wouldn't be there,and then he left.
And so we know he did it sometimeSaturday afternoon.
And then his grandpa was out of town.
His grandpa came home Sundayand found him.
And that's when he called me.

(33:20):
And we it was Sunday, afternoon.
And we were driving.
And I just remember he answering the phone
and being surprisedthat my ex father in law was calling me
because, we didn't talk since the divorce,and he just said, Rose, John's here.
And I said, oh, okay.
I was looking for himbecause, well, he's dead.

(33:41):
And I go, What!
And I dropped the phoneand I just started crying hysterically.
And then Bill got Ahold of the phoneand and I just
was just distraught.
And so we went to the ranch after that,
and, that was, how we found him there.
And my my,my husband wouldn't let me go see John.

(34:02):
I wanted toI desperately wanted to go see him.
And my husband said, you know what, honey?
I don't think you should.
he's with the Lord.
I don't think that should be your memory.
And I just kept bringing it up.
Well, I think I need to go see him.
I think I know,and he just wouldn't let me in.
And we just startedpraying, and Romans 8:28 came.

(34:22):
That's my life verse.
And it was just, I don't understand it.
God, I don't know how this could workfor good, but I'm going to trust you
with my son and it was just so painful.
It was just so terrible.
And Bill and I had only beenmarried about four months.
So. And my mom,
didn't approve of our marriagebecause she felt like I needed to get

(34:44):
John and I in an apartmentand get him out of sober living
and not marry and take and fix my sonbecause she's codependent too.
So she just felt like that was my,if I was a good mom.
That's what I would do, right?
I told her,no, mom, like that isn't the answer.
But we kind of have a little problemwith each other from because of that.

(35:08):
And so it was just Billand I, and then, we were just in prayer.
And then when they took his body,
I just was able to lay my hands on him
and just pray a mother's prayer
for him and for us and, and then,they took him
and then shortly after, his, his dad came

(35:31):
and and his girlfriend, the one thathe had left me for, and they drove up
after that and I don't know,do you want me to tell you what happened?
Yes, please,
remember where this is?
We spent a lot of time going about,
But this is.
Yeah, this is but but this is the placewhere we're going to pivot to start
talking about forgiveness.
Because he shot himself with a gun. Yes.

(35:54):
He did exactly.
he was in such aI think it was a resentment with his dad.
He was going to show him.
Yeah. Which is it'svery sick thinking. Right.
It's absolutely.
But he was so depressed, and he was so
he was tormented by these voices.
And I think he he just it was this.

(36:15):
It was just too much, you can tell.
And and when you're, there's a, when your dad is critical of you
and has been abusive.
There's just a deep heart desireto be approved of your
by by your dadand to have your dad show you
he he loves you and isn't rejectingyou and isn't doing all those things.
So when it keeps going, it especially inboys, there's tremendous anger.

(36:39):
And he it could beanger, could be desperation.
It could be feeling like,yeah, maybe I'm not good enough.
And I couldn't do it rightthe first time that I'll show him.
We don't know.
But there's allkinds of possibilities. But,
tell us what happened.
When.
Yeah.
Husband and and the womanhe had the affair with came in.

(36:59):
Yeah.
So they drove upand, she's quite a bit younger.
She she was only, like,five years older than John.
She was in her early 20s, and,I was in my 40s at that point.
And I think Phil was 50, so she,she's a young woman.
And, she was, she's from Mexico.
She's Latin.
we used to have a fishing business,so he met her over there, and,

(37:21):
it was really hard for mebecause it was kind of
like my thinking was,she's the one that broke up our marriage.
You know, like the blame stuff you do whenwhen you, you find out about an affair.
And even though I had been prayingto forgive her, to forgive my husband,
I, I definitely was asking Godto help me to let go of all that.

(37:43):
But it's still like when I saw her,it was like, there she is.
And so I, I, my, ex-husband
John'sdad was trying to keep her away from me.
He was he was like, corralling herto go in the house or something.
And I looked at Philand I said, you don't have to do that.
that's the person you're with.

(38:05):
It's okay.
You really sure, Rose? You sure?
And I said, yeah, it's okay.
So then she comes towards me and I'mthinking, oh, maybe it's not right.
But I thought
of my hero of faith,Corrie Ten Boom and her story of
when she saw the man that killed hersister in the concentration camp
and how she saw him at a, at awhen she speaking of that

(38:28):
and how she all that anger, all thatrage came up and she hated this man.
They, did this to her sister.
And so she asked God,only God could help her
to shake his hand and forgive him.
It had to come from God.
And so I grab Ahold of that thought andI thought, that's what I'm going to do.
Okay, Lord, let me be like Corrie,let me just

(38:50):
at least shake her handand wish her well to be kind.
that she's not the enemy, that.
And so I prayed for that.
And so she came towards meand I'm like, trying to shake her hand.
But she's Latin like,she's like all over me.
And she's just, like,sobbing and hysterically crying and

(39:12):
and I'm just like, patting her backand I'm like, it's, I'm comforting her.
And I was like.
It was like a weird, like moment, like,oh my gosh, I,
I feel this empathy for her pain.
And yet it's my son that died and her,I'm comforting her.
And I looked over in my shoulderand I, over her shoulder, as we're

(39:34):
in this embraceand I see my husband sitting
with Phil, John's dad comforting
him, and he's crying and saying,it's my fault.
he was distraughtand Bill was telling him,
you know, Jesus loves you.
you can have John's Bible.

(39:54):
Here's John's Bible, and and I could see
glimpses of Godworking with, with, with Bill, my husband
talking to John's dad and comforting him
and me comforting, this woman.
And it was like it was like,only God can do that.
Yeah. There's no way.
And not only that, my mom,when she arrived, we hadn't

(40:17):
been talking because she was so angrythat I didn't do what she wanted me do.
And there was this, momentwhen they took his body
that I fell on my kneesand I was just sobbing,
and she felt compassion for meand came over.
And so,there was just all this reconciliation
and going on by the powerof the Holy Spirit, by God, just lavishly

(40:40):
pouring out love to usin the midst of this horrible pain.
And and it wasthere was no bad words to one another,
no anger,no blaming, no blaming, comforting.
It was almost impossible.
It is impossible without God.That is impossible.
And what about later?
Like when you leftand you were out of the shock?

(41:02):
Did you have other momentswhere the anger would come up
and you would think,
you know, the grief processwhere you're thinking, well, if only this.
If only this dad had been nicer,or if this dad hadn't,
said something, or if he hadn'thad this problem with my brother.
I mean, did you do that?
And did thatbring up, like, unforgiveness, or
did you literally not go through thatin terms of blaming people?

(41:29):
I it'sinteresting that you asked that question
because, the fleshly side of mereally struggled with it.
Because I just felt like
if he could have just done thingsa little bit different,
maybe John would still be here,
but it's kind of like I.

(41:50):
What happened after that is morethat I turned the anger against me.
It was more towards myself.
Like.
Because when he left me for the youngerwoman
I went through,I come from a family of alcoholism.
Right.
And so I started using wineas a way to cope.

(42:10):
Now, because I'm a Christian woman,it didn't go too far down.
I caught it to where it was early.
Like I didn't get trouble with the law or,I didn't do anything.
But I did have, a moment of clarity
where I realizedI was having a problem with alcohol.
And God clearly told me because at John's16th birthday,

(42:31):
before he got into problems, I ruinedhis birthday by drinking too much.
That that birthday.
And it was because we were separatedand we're having this family thing.
And what a farce.
And and I just, like, gave into it,
And I wasn't proud of that moment,but it got me into recovery.
It was a very thingthat God used to bring me into recovery.

(42:54):
So what happened for me when John died wasyou didn't set the example.
You didn't get it right.
You weren't the perfect mom.
You shouldyou should have never done that.
maybe he'd be aliveif you would have done it better.
It was this and it.
I totally lashed on myself.
And when I saw his body,

(43:14):
that was a very dark moment.
Because, they prepare it.
And, his father was Catholic in,in, in his, religious, background.
And so was I,but I've been a believer for a long time.
But he wanted a Catholic, funeral.
And we also hada celebration of life at the church
because John was a big part of our church,but his father wanted.

(43:37):
So at first, Lord,we had that, the Catholic thing.
And so they were preparing his body.
So I went with my brotherand with with my husband, my my husband.
I was married to Bill from church.
And, when I saw himall of that shame it it
the enemy was attacking me and sayingyou weren't the right kind of mother.

(44:00):
You screwed up.
You didn't do it right.
You drank on his birthday.
No wonder he did it because of you.
Because you didn't stand up to his dad.
You didn't, you didn't.
You should have, gotten, something donesomething different
than let him be abusive.You let it happen.
It's all your fault.
So I turned it really on myself.

(44:21):
And at that moment,when I was just in utter despair,
I was just in this terrible spot I heard.
Just very slight.
It was so tiny.
But it was this little Holy Spirit voicethat said, that's a lie.
You were a teen mom.
You were a real mom.

(44:42):
You were there for the camp counselor.
You prayed with John.
You prayed for his older brotherto receive Christ.
You prayed for him, for his dadto find the Lord.
You took him to church.
You read Bible devotions with him,
and reminding meof every wonderful thing you were.
You went to theyou were the chaperon for jazz band.

(45:02):
you did so many things with himand all the things
and memories came back, flooding back,and it totally washed out that shame.
And then I just poured outthis mother's prayer,
and it freed me from that loathingI had for myself.
And it made me realize that, God'smercy and grace

(45:25):
was there for me, and that he loved me,and that I had to see the good
that was there.
It wasn't all bad. It was.
There was a lot of good.
And and what it didwas it gave me a perspective of,
my, my ex-husband was an angry man. Yes.
But he was also a good provider.
He was, my God, showed me the good in me,

(45:46):
and he showed methe good that there was in that marriage.
And being that he was such agood provider, I didn't work for 17 years.
I was a stay at home mom. Yeah.
And so it was like,I wouldn't have all these memories
and I wouldn't have done all those thingsif he hadn't been a good provider.

(46:07):
True.
And so that was like God showing me that,
that I could trust him for that moment and
and be grateful for the goodthat was brought to me through that.
And so after John, my husbandand I hadn't really spoken at all.
We were in a terrible property battleso we talk at all of divorce.

(46:31):
And so we went to the great
the mortuary to planhis, placard his, his plaque.
And so we designed it just for him.
His favorite scripture was John 3:16.
We put that on there. We put music notes.
Some of the, just designed it.
His name means, John.
John means what is a friend of God?

(46:52):
Something like that.
We put that on there.
And, and so after we designed it,
it was only himand I first time we were alone together.
And so we're walking out and he says,well, I guess there's nothing more to say.
And I looked at him
and I said, yeah,I have something I want to say to you.
And he was like, here it comes.

(47:13):
She's gonna blast me.
I just knew he was like, bracing himself.
And I said, I want to tell you
that, I am so gratefulyou were a good provider because, Phil,
nobody can take away the 17 yearsof amazing memories I have with him.
And it's because of you.
You have that happen for me.

(47:34):
And I'm gratefulthat that I have that richness.
And it's.
And it's all because of you.
And so I want to thank you for that.
And he just like almoststumbled to his car.
He didn’t know what to do with that.
But it's becausewhen God gives us his eyes to see things,
we can see it from a distanceand we can see it from a different view.

(47:56):
Yeah.
And the one thing that did come to meis that, unfortunately,
he's going to have to rememberhis parting words with his son.
Yes, he's going to have to learn to livewith argument. Yep.
And telling his son that he didn'tdo it right and he should have used a gun.
And not only that,he didn't get rid of the gun.
The gun was there, right.
and I was always hounding on himto get rid of the guns.

(48:20):
And he, he didn't think he needed to.
And, that's got to be a hard thing to livewith.
And I have a lot of compassion for himbecause I can't even imagine.
And I'm so grateful for Godshowing me my own
ugliness, helping me realizeI needed recovery,
and then setting me on the right pathof of a new way of living.

(48:43):
And now my parting words with my son
were recovery oriented,loving him where he was at.
There was times, one time he showed upand he had been drinking,
and as long as he wasn't activelydrinking, we didn't.
We let him in and we talked to him.
And I rememberwe had this conversation about the steps.
And, how he's powerless and, just.

(49:04):
And so we have like,
I have memories of affirmationsof trying to encourage him.
Nothing, no anger,you know, yelling at him.
How could you show up my house drunk?
instead it's like, okay, come on in.
We'll feed you, you know?
Yeah. Wonderful.
That's really good.
And, I mean, you could have gonethrough a lot of blame.

(49:26):
Like, why didn't I let him live with me?Did you do that?
Did you second guess thatbecause I know I would have I yeah, I did.
Why didn't I do it sooner?
You know, I know, I know the reasonsthat you didn't have them there
and they were
because you had boundaries you couldn'thave them be using at your home.
And yeah, I, I totally agree.
In fact, I remember talking to youabout that at that.

(49:48):
And I think we went to the same meetingand recovery at that time.
And yeah.
And Al-Anon. Right.
And, yeah,I remember having conversation with you
and you were saying,I can't have him there.
I think he'd been even gotten angryin your home and
and done some, like, damage or something.
but the fear of suicide iswhat keeps a lot of people,

(50:11):
especially if there's been a prior suicide
attempt from, you know,putting a child out of their home.
But you knew recovery, you knewwhat it took and you knew you couldn't.
You know,God gave me a really interesting,
like, for affirmationthat was doing the right thing.
And, I do remember talking to you about itand I've been

(50:32):
I still like my bleeding heart, but I had,
met a friend in, recovery.
That son was actively,addicted in, in his home.
He was separated from.
He was divorced from his wife, butthe mother was letting the son live there,
and he was in his room all the time.
And he was just kind, like John,depressed and, big gaming or whatever.

(50:56):
And so he was just distraught over it.
And I told him what I was going to do,and he agreed with me, and he said, yeah,
I don't know how to get my wife to,she needs and met my ex-wife to get,
you know, she won't do a boundary.
And, and and so finally he got his, his,
his ex-wife convincedthat his son needed help.

(51:16):
And then he was able to talk his soninto getting help.
And so they were they made arrangements.
And he was a lawyer,so he had plenty of money.
He paid for a program, a really good one.
And he was going to pick up his son,and he had met with his son
and he shared it at this recovery groupI was with.

(51:36):
And he said, hey, yeah, share with my son.
And, he said he can't do it.
But I told me he could,and I'm picking him up after the meeting
and I'm going to take him in. I'mso excited.
Well, the next day he came inand his son had died that night.
And and it's because,
he od on whatever it washe was, he was Ambien.

(51:57):
Ambien.
He was getting Ambien, through the mail.
And his what?
His ex-wife didn't know.
The mother didn't know.
And so that night, when his dad left,he overdosed on it.
So he wouldn't he just didn't.
He didn't really want to do it.
And, and so what it showed me is that,

(52:17):
can I live with my son dying in my house?
Can I do anything? Yeah.
Can I live with him not being in my house?
And I didn’t do anything.
I mean, with God,you can live through anything.
But I don't want to be enabling a behavior
by just acting like nothing's happening,right?
That was what made me decideI had to have the boundary,

(52:39):
but it was not likemy feelings were not connected to my head.
Very hard. Right? Very hard. Yeah.
And it is normal to be fearful.
Were you angry with your son?
Because the the grief process includes
a, anger and usually with suicide.
The hard problemis because you're grieving the death, but

(53:03):
the person who's gone took their life.
So it's there is some blame oftenand some anger
as far as like, why did you do that?
I've never had it's interesting.
I cannot dream of my sonpast a certain age.
He's always a boy,and he's not heal from that yet.

(53:26):
it might be still somethingthat's a stronghold for me.
I just cannot get.
I still see him like a little boy.
And when I dream about him,he's always a little boy.
And I kind of feel like there's a barrierthere.
Like, I can't go there.
I, I grieve the losses, like they call it

(53:47):
secondary losses, like I'll never see himmarry.
I'll never know whathe could have been, all of that.
But I haven't been able to be angrywith him.
And I don't know if that's somethingI still need to work on.
it's like.
Or if by, again, working on stuff
or if by God's grace with betweenall your recovery and the gratitude

(54:09):
that you had through that, if maybe,maybe you don't have to go through that.
But I know people do.
And it's it's hard.
That's one of the hard thingswith with suicide, but, that's wonderful.
So now the other part of your storyis John's brother,
who was deeply affectedby his brother's suicide.

(54:32):
Can you talk about his brother?
Yeah.
His brother really felt responsible.
If he
had just listened to that voiceand gone to the ranch
and not gone to the beach party,Bible study thing that he was late to,
maybe he would have saved his brother'slife.
Yeah.

(54:52):
And he just couldn't accept that he,
like, it's kind of like.
Maybe it's it's survival,guilt kind of thing.
Or vice versa. Guilt?
Yeah. Survivor's guilt.
Like,because, if John was bent on on that mode,
he would have probably done itanyway, right?

(55:15):
If it was it, that day would have beenhe might have already been gone.
He could have been gone already. Yeah.
So it's it's well no, because he,
he was headed on, on the road at 11.
So that's why I wasn't gone.
And that's where the guilt, likeI should have gone.
The vet came at noon.
He could have taken the.

(55:37):
It would have worked out.
how that is heavy to carry. Yeah.
So it's just somethinghe hasn't been able to face.
And so unfortunately, it began his spiral.
And so he, relapsed.
It was subtle. It started with alcohol,
and then it progressed.
And then he was having marriage problems.
And he ended up, just

(56:00):
it's been eight, 20 years.
He's been some bouts of sobriety
in and out of jail, all drug related.
And, it's I, I just don't knowif I'll ever find his way out of that.
I I'm praying for it.
I'm asking for the miracle.
But, it just seems like,it's a stronghold of shame.

(56:23):
And that's, I think, one of the big thingsthat the enemy uses to hold us hostage.
Right?
You can get us to believe thatwe're no good
and that that God can't forgive us.
It's like reverse pride, in a way.
Yeah.
And, we're we'rewe become prisoners to that dungeon.
I call it a dungeon.
We go to that dungeon, and you just.

(56:46):
You feel like God, there's no hope. And.
And then if he is also if he's in.
Yeah, he's in so much pain over that.
And he's numbing the pain with substances.
He's not healthily grieving the pain,which is what
allows us to go through somethingso incredibly difficult.
But he's not doing it.
He's like, he's he's avoiding itbecause it's too painful.

(57:10):
Yeah.
The worst part about it, too,is that his sister committed suicide
three years ago.
His his half sister. Wow.
And so it's it's still there's more going
on, with the with family dynamics. Yes.
being that his,biological father, was in the police.

(57:31):
He very ashamed of his son.
I think, I think he loves his son,but I think he's also ashamed
of him because he's, he's not
the law abiding citizen right now, right?
He's never visited his son in jail.
He doesn't want, any of that.
And and then his sister, his oldest sisteron from that second marriage, his,

(57:51):
his biological father had, she became,
very sick herself with depression.
But David was involved in that.
He was the last one to see her,and he rescued her from her attempt.
She wasshe was in the garage with, the fumes.
I don't think she knew how to do itexactly.
But, you know,she had the car running and he caught her,

(58:14):
and she had a suicide note, but because,
he was in his addiction, she asked him.
And I think they probably used togetherand that she was kidding and,
then he decided to leavebecause it wouldn't be good for her
to be hanging out with himbecause the thought the father

(58:34):
was abusive, her husband was abusive,and he had taken the kids away from her
because he has a lot of money,because she had, done drugs.
And so anyway, she was a mess.
And that night, after he left,
she hung herself. No.
You know, he has to live with that.
And of course, his dad and his stepmomblame him,

(58:57):
because he wasthe last one to see her. And
so he's got a lot to,
to get over, like, to dothat is very hard.
Yeah.
So and sometimes people can't get overthat and it's that's, that's just huge.
But and and if they don't have the Lordand they don't have help,

(59:18):
that's just so much pain.
So how do you
how do you find.
And I know what the answer is,but I want people listening to know
how do you find serenity
to deal with your son potentially
doing the same thing that his brother did,or dying of an overdose?

(59:40):
And, being on drugsand being in jail and out of jail?
And I'm sure he's been homeless at times.
And, I mean, how do you handle that?
I have really tried hardbecause I'm very codependent,
to fix him in so many different ways.
Okay.
And it's, I want a solution.

(01:00:02):
I but I want an outcome.
No, I want more than is, like the right.
I want it.
I want him to get sober and, or, but
I what I've noticed about myselfand God's revealed this to me
in the last couple of years because, thisin and out of jail and all this stuff.
I jump in the hole with him,and then I begin to try to push him out.

(01:00:24):
And I do it by, oh, go to school.
Oh, oh, last time,I mean, I was taking him to work.
He lives in, he was working in HuntingtonBeach.
Oh, that's a good drive.
That's at least a half hourwithout traffic.
It could be an hour plus with traffic.
I became his taxi cab driver.
I was taking him to PO.
I was taking him to work soI wouldn't lose his job and he'd be okay.

(01:00:48):
And so there I am.
And the hole time,if I could just get him out of the hole,
he'll go out, he'll start runningand he'll be great, right?
Well, I'm in the hole
that's the part I didn't
realize that I'm in the hole,but I'm not giving it my hand up.
I'm in the hole with him. Sure.
And so it was not good.

(01:01:09):
I wasn't emotionally availableto my husband,
to my, other family members, his childrenand my blended family.
Right.
I have grandchildrenfrom from his daughter.
And your son has.
And so, yeah, very active in grandparentgrandparenting them. Yes.

(01:01:29):
And so recently, you know, God showed me
that I jump in these holes and I try tobecause I don't want that outcome.
So I'm going to put all my energyinto making
sure that I doeverything possible to fix this.
Well, I get very sickand I lose perspective.

(01:01:52):
And so,what recently happened is I had a dream
and I think God uses dream sometimes,and the dream was
that we were all running a race,and I'm running and we're all running,
and I see my son under this tree,and it's shady and it's nice and grassy
and and he's kind of off,on the side of the road.

(01:02:13):
And I said, oh, I gotta go get him.
So I run over to the tree and I said,come on, come on, we got to go.
We're all running.We got to go up that hill.
And he's like, nah, I'm good.
I'm hanging out here on this treeright now and I'm trying to drag him.
And you know, he's quite a bitheavier than me to drag him out of there.
And mom, I'm not going. I'm fine.

(01:02:36):
And this voice from heaven says to me,
leave him to me and go and run your race.
Wow. And I looked at him and
I was crying, and I said,I wish you would join us.
No, I'm comfortable and so right.
And I just was so sad.

(01:02:56):
And I turned around and I started running.
And then I woke up.
That is a very, very specific dream.
And I think the Lord gives us dreams too.
So this last time that he got out of jail,he asked for my help again.
And I don't mind helping him, likeget somewhere or whatever, but, I thought,

(01:03:18):
I don't know
if this is the Lord that did thisor I don't know why it happened this way,
but usually they release himlike at eight in the morning.
And, so that was our deal,that I was going to go over there
at eight in the morning
and take him over to his POand see where he was going to live.
And when I went over there,he wasn't there.

(01:03:41):
And so then I went tomy nephew's graduation
and, I thought, well, I don't know.
He must have went with his friends.I don't know what happened to him.
So then at about two, or around
1130, 12, when maybe around two,
we were going to lunchafter the graduation
and I was taking my mom somewhere,and the thought came to me,

(01:04:03):
maybe you should go back to thatCarl's Junior and see if he's there.
But I
decided not to, and I don't know whyI thought that
or why I felt that, but I thought,I'm not going to put my mom through that.
Go over thereto see if he's there, look for him.
Turned out he was there.
They released him laterand he was waiting for me.

(01:04:26):
Okay.
And so then I guesshe realized I wasn't coming
and he couldn't call mebecause he didn't have a phone.
So he took the bus and went to the PO,and I guess they put him in a house and
and so I didn't hear fromfor several days.
When I finally heard from himand I went to go see him, I met with him.

(01:04:48):
He was right back into his addiction. Wow.
So we had a taco and,
I, I dropped him off at his PO’s, and
I think I dropped him off, at is wherehe said he walk home where he lives.
I don't know if I, he really wentwhere he lived or whatever.
And so what God has given meis I have this mantra, right?

(01:05:12):
And I say, I trust you, Jesus.
And then it helps mealign my eyes to Jesus
rather than, oh my gosh, what is this?
And more of that.
And oh no, he's he's not here. He's gone.
He's, a lot of times in like,I'm ready to, he's dead.
These I got to plan a funeral

(01:05:32):
and I don't let myself go therebecause today that is what it is.
I can pray for him and,so I keep saying I trust you.
Jesus. Yeah.
He called me
recentlybecause I haven't seen him very much.
And I will see he says he'sgonna meet me at church Sunday.
Okay.

(01:05:52):
So you just have to be open to it,
but not be completely invested in it,because you can never tell.
I know with the family memberthat I deal with that has been in
with addiction, mental illness,suicide attempts.
I know for me for yearsI lived with every day.

(01:06:15):
What do I need to do today?
To where if something bad happens,
I will know that I did the best I couldand I did the right thing.
And so I would weigh the same thing.
Enabling versus tough love,
and and it helps you not to be angry.
It helps you not to say wordsthat you would regret, even though you're

(01:06:36):
in the midst of this incrediblyfrustrating situation and you have anger
and you want to shake themand tell them you know what to do.
And, but it helps.
It helped me, still helps mewhen I need to use it is to know that,
I want to know.
I don't want to have those regretsand be beating myself up.

(01:06:57):
Like you said.
I want to feel good about what I've saidand what I've done, and
and that often meansnot enabling, saying no.
And very hard times.
I remember saying, for four years, likeyou, you have to go into, you know, or no.
Well,actually it wasn't four years from about
I think it was about eight months whereit's like you have to go into recovery,

(01:07:19):
but I won't help you at allunless you go to recovery
like I can't, the anxiety was so highand I was just like.
But you will.
Yeah.
You want my help?
And I just had to hold on to that.
And then it actually happened, right.
And so it's just you got you just got to.
We don't but we need help.
That's where a twelve step programrecovery comes in.

(01:07:40):
When you're dealing with addiction,alcoholism Al-Anon is a wonderful help.
And, counseling,we both utilized counselors.
Al-Anon,celebrate recovery is wonderful, too.
I know you're involved with that now.
And just friends and supportand lots of phone calls.
So it is doable. But it's but it's hard.
So, in closing, what would you like to say

(01:08:04):
to the person who is listening
or watching and is dealing eitherwith a loved one
who has tried to commit suicideand they're fearful,
or they're in this spiral of drugsand all this and, and they're,
they're struggling with pain or,or fear or unforgiveness.

(01:08:27):
What would you say?
I would say that,this is a really tough journey,
but it's it's something thatyou're not meant to do alone.
And I
highlyrecommend that you not be alone in it.
And that's why the supportgroups are so powerful, And if you're here
on this podcast, you obviously beenintroduced to Karla and her studies.

(01:08:50):
They're very powerful.
They will help youand you do it in a group setting.
So you meet other people and Goduses people.
Yeah, he really does.
He uses people.
And we can't be Lone Rangers.
And it's very easy to isolateand feel like
you can't tell people and maybe you can't.

(01:09:10):
I mean, there might be some peoplethat maybe you shouldn't,
but there are people that arethere like you that are struggling
that that understandwhat you're going through.
And, it's so wonderful to have, people
that can kind of like Moses,remember when his hands got weary

(01:09:31):
and, they were lifting his hands and his his hands were lifted.
He could win the battle right.
And that's kind of what's happened to mewhen I'm in those
really tough momentswhere I don't know what I'm going to do.
I was going to mentionthat my son called me last.
I guess he was right around right afterThanksgiving, right before Thanksgiving.

(01:09:53):
And he told me that I had to give him$3,000 or, and this girl had a charge
card, and I could charge on her,his wild stories telling me
and I, you know,I listened to him, and then he.
And then he pausedand I said, well, I can't do that.
I put my boundary right.
Then he tells me, well, okay, I'm

(01:10:13):
saying goodbye to youbecause, I'm I'm being kidnaped
and if I don't give them this money,I'm going to be killed.
So this is the last time you hear from me.
Please tell my my daughter I love her and.
Well. And I had to deal with that.
And, the the the temptation of ismy son's worth $3,000.
Should I conjure up this moneyand, you know.

(01:10:35):
But then where does it stop?
Am I going to be called all the timeto give it?
What do I do?
But I knew what to do.
I and God told me, run your race.
Leave him to me.
And so I tell him, I'm sorry,I can't help you.
And he goes, well, there's nothing to say.
And there was this silence.And I said, I have something to say.
This is what's that?
I said, I love you,

(01:10:56):
I love you so much, David,and God loves you, and I'll pray for you.
And I'm.
Are you in this terrible situation?
So I had to go to Boston to be with Bill'sfamily and act like I know him all.
And I'm just fantastic.
Jesus, I,
I can't tell them what's going on,but I'm just waiting for the phone call
that he's dead because, you know, he'scaptured, he's being held prisoner.

(01:11:18):
And maybe it's the guy who deals drugswho knows, right?
Yeah.
Then I come backand I get this phone call from him,
and he's just like,he forgot he said that to me.
Yeah.
And I'm like, what about being captured?
I thought you heard because. Oh,I got away.
And so,sometimes our kids are manipulative.

(01:11:38):
Oh, heck yeah.You know, and we have to be.
They drug addicts are really good
at lyingand making up stuff to get what they want.
They're one.
They're fantastic with manipulating.
He was using fear.
And but the problem isyou can't give him that money.
Because if you do,then that might be the money
that he uses to gobuy the drugs that he overdoses on.

(01:12:03):
And then you will have that
to to deal with forever.
So we have to be good to ourselves.
I look at that as I'm powerless over that.
But we don't leave our kidsand abandon them like we care about them.
Like you.
He comes over, you have them for dinner,like I'm involved in this person's
life and, intricately.
And we do the things we do.

(01:12:23):
What what what I always say,what encourages them and we can do.
But anything that discourages them,we don't do, then we might maybe
we might do something because we knowit could be too overwhelming.
But we don't do things that enable yes,that harms them.
And what helps me too, is that I say,what if I wasn't on this earth?

(01:12:46):
Would God still help my son?
And would he still woo him andand draw him to himself?
He would, yes.
So I have to remember I'm not the Savior.
Well, and God is doing that.
The Holy Spirit, that'shis job, is to draw men toward the Lord.
And the Holy Spirit is doing that.

(01:13:07):
Now people get to decideif they're going to listen or not.
And if they don't listen that we can't,we're not the Holy Spirit.
if we can't,I know there's there's so many scriptures
I use in my devotionaland a lot of my posts that I do that, it's
like there's a scripture in Proverbsand it talks about the lazy man
won't even lift a spoonto their mouth to eat.

(01:13:29):
And then I add on to it, oh, butwe lift it for him while we're enabling.
We're like his hand up there.
There's the bowl.
We not only cook the food and buy it,but we put the bowl there and we
we feed it to him and then we.
You can rub the throat,like of a dog to get him to swallow.
We're rubbing their throat.
Swallow, swallow, swallow.

(01:13:50):
All the while our life is falling apart.
I mean, yeah, you just wewe have to be willing to let go
and take care of ourselfand do the right thing.
And with God's helpand the help of program principles
and support from others, we can do it.
And we can still, like you,live a fully normal life.

(01:14:12):
I live a fully normal life.
Like we can laugh, we have joy.
we we take careof our other relationships.
But if you don't have that,you can become so consumed
by this one personthat you are gripped with fear.
And all you're doing
is trying to rescue this person,or you allow that person into your house

(01:14:33):
and it destroys your own home,your own life,
your marriage, relationshipswith other people.
People have trouble going to work over it,meaning it.
It can just get completely out of control.
So that is the other, way that we have tolook at that too. So.
Well, we've gone we we went

(01:14:54):
I almost an hour and a halfI think it's like an hour and 20 minutes.
But that's wonderful because I think we,
I think we got outeverything we needed to say.
So thank you, Rose, for being here.
And so for being so transparent.
Thank you Karlafor all that you do for all of us.
You're welcome.
You too, because I know you've helpedpeople like you've helped my daughter,

(01:15:14):
and you've helped so many people,
and you've helped me with my classesby giving your testimony.
And you've helped people todayby being here.
So our prayerfor those people that are listening
is that you would recognizethat there is hope
and there is help,and that you would be recognized.
And not only that, there is help and hopeto help

(01:15:35):
you forgive by understandingwhere the person is coming from,
why the person did what they did,and recognizing that
not forgiving meansthat you're gripped by the unforgiveness
which can destroy your own life and causesyou even more pain.
That other person might not even knowhow you feel about them.

(01:15:56):
So forgiveness is for you.
And, my healing the wounds of your pastclass goes through losses and goes through
the really, really intricate stepsthat are involved in forgiveness.
So if you're really struggling with thatand you're listening, go ahead
and check that out on my website,Healing the Wounds of Your Past.
So thank you for watchingand listening to this podcast.

(01:16:18):
And I just pray that you'll sharethis episode with people that you know
really need it, and that you'll be backto listen to the next one.
Thank you. God bless. God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.

(01:16:39):
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
[e-mail]
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts

(01:17:00):
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.