July 7, 2025 • 59 mins
Jan Tamble is a leader of the Orange County, California, chapter of Umbrella Ministries, whose purpose is reaching out to the hurts and hearts of mothers who have experienced the loss of a child.
Jan shares her story of losing her daughter, Megan, twelve years ago. Along with sharing her grief journey, she discusses the things that people do that hurt and help. When they don't understand how to respond to a person's grief, they do things that cause pain, even though their intentions are to help.
This emotional and touching podcast will impact listeners who have lost a loved one by validating their pain, and those who know them by providing insight into how to help.
Umbrella Ministries: https://www.umbrellaministries.com/
Umbrella Ministries Facebook: Umbrella Ministries Grief Support
Orange County Chapter: https://umbrellaministriesocla.blogspot.com/
GriefShare: GriefShare.org
Don't Letter: Click HERE to download a copy of the letter with suggestions of what to do and not do. https://karladowningresources.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/dont-letter.pdf
Website: https://www.changemyrelationship.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ChangeMyRelationship
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@changemyrelationship
Watch this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Zo0TKTsXJL8
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.
(00:30):
Welcome to Change My Relationship podcast.
On some of my podcast.
I interview a person who has gone through
a specific relationship struggle
and has insights to share with you.
Today I have with me Jan Tamble
and she is the Orange County Leaderfor Umbrella Ministries,
(00:54):
which is a ministry for momswho have lost a child.
So she's going to talkabout her personal experience,
and then we are going to focus onjust what people can say.
That is helpful when you speakingto someone who's lost a child
and what people can saythat is not helpful.
(01:14):
And not to shame anyone.
Not to make them feel bad,but to give you insight
into what does help.
Because often the awkwardnessof not knowing what to say
is what causes us to saythe things that end up not helping.
So welcome, Jen.
(01:36):
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
And I should also say thatJan is a dear friend,
and I've known her for quite a while,including when your daughter died,
which was 12 years ago, is,I think, when we first were connected.
And, Yeah.
so I've known her for a whileand watched her
go through this journey and some others.
But todaywe're going to focus on this one.
And, we're going to start offwith, telling
(01:59):
having you tell us about your daughterMegan.
Okay. And we love to get to do this part.
Yeah.
My daughter Megan is my third child,my second daughter, my third child.
And I'm going to just describe herspunky and feisty.
She's says what she means.
She's really affectionate.
I miss those hugs and cuddles.
And she don't hold back on her words ever,she just spoke her mind for sure.
(02:24):
But, she loved kids.
She loved being an auntie.
She loved music, her friends.
She loved church, she loved to sing,and she really loved the Lord.
And that part's huge in our story,she really did.
Some things were really hard for Megangrowing up in school was one of them.
(02:45):
And so I'll talk about thata little bit later.
But school was toughand so was making friends.
So when she landed in Tucson,she got connected to a great church
in Tucson.
She made some great friendsthat were both her age and my age
that in the end, really came to surroundboth of us
with a lot of loveand a lot of care during the year.
(03:06):
Megan's cancer. So
that was a godsend.
The place that she ended
up, that she called homewas actually a blessing for both of us.
Yeah, because you were in Californiaand Tucson is about a 10
to 11 hour drive, of which I don't drive.
So it was always a flight tripto get there.
(03:28):
And, either way, it's not quick.
We know airports can be, but 10, 10or 11 hours is is a long journey.
When there was another medical emergencyand that happened often.
Well, how wonderful, though,that she had a group of people
that loved her and cared for herthat you could know
were therewhen you were not able to be there.
(03:48):
That is a huge blessing.
And it it goes way back.
I was at a reunion yesterday at the church
that we attended,you know, when Megan was born, actually.
And there's a person therewho actually connected me
in to Umbrella Ministry,so it's a whole nother back story.
So that was really exciting yesterdayto just be able to thank those people,
(04:10):
because even the people here in Californiawere a huge part of my story.
And often people would say,I should bring Megan here,
because my support group is here,but Megan's support
group was thereand I could see how much she needed that.
And so I'm I'm not a desert person.
I did not like the desert.
But I have just a wholenother story of how, the devotional
(04:33):
called streams in the desert.
How God just.
I don't know, miraculouslyplanted a flower when I got out of the car
next to where I was parked.
I think it was the only one in the, areawhere I was.
But all these little thingsthat made my experience
in truly in the desert, be manageable,even when it felt like it wasn't.
(04:53):
Yeah, that's a devotional I read like40 years ago for 20, 30 many years.
It's slow.
It's one of my very favorite devotionals.
Yeah, yeah.
How interesting that you read that one.
It's an old one,but it's it sticks in my mind
because now I have an experience connectedand actually a visual,
(05:14):
and did end up in hospice at the endat a really beautiful facility.
Again, we're in the desertand I don't find it to be pretty.
And the block wall around, her patio
blocked out all the dirtand all I could see was the mountains
and the blue skies,and it actually was really that.
And the fountain that was on herpatio were really calming,
(05:36):
peaceful things for me.
And that that was a blessing.
And that that's beautiful, that you findthat I try to do that too.
No matter where I am,I try to find something that is calming
or linked to nature.
And if it's if I'm around somethingthat doesn't like make me feel calm,
I will look up at the skyor I will look up at trees.
(05:59):
And there's always something that isbeautiful and calming in the environment.
And so that's really cool that youthat you remember that being
and its interesting that you say thatbecause, I don't tend to look at.
And so the verse
would come to my mindbecause when I would look over that
black wall, the only option was to stareat the wall or look up.
(06:22):
And I felt like, reminded of the verse,that says, you know, to look up.
And that's where we'll we'll see him.
We'll know that look up into the hillsfrom where it comes.
Your help.
The Lord help is from thelike the Lord God of.
Yeah. Yes. And I went.
I had thought, to write down exactly whereit's from, but it is that exact verse.
Yeah.
(06:42):
From where my help comes from. Yeah.
From when, where my help comes from.
There's a song with that too. So.
Yeah. Beautiful. Well,we have a lot in common.
Favorite verses,favorite ways of calming ourselves.
So is so Megan,are you willing to talk about, I mean, I
the bad part is the cancer.What kind of cancer was that?
You say it was about a year.
(07:03):
So, Megan,I had just lost my mom in January of 2012.
And three months later,Megan talked about not feeling good,
and she took herselfto the emergency room, and they just said,
it looks likethere's something going on in your liver.
And she had lost her job.
And so she was supposedto start a new job in a week.
And so in her mind,it was, I've got 90 days.
And then I'll have insuranceand I'll check into it.
(07:25):
And they gave her OxyContinand she left the hospital,
but she was going to be visiting her dad.
And so she chose not to continueto take it so she could drive down safely.
And I think after about three days,her pain was so intense
that her dad took her back to the hospitalwhere she had been in Tucson,
and they did more ran more tests,and they found the cancer
(07:48):
stage four colon cancer, which had
actually
metastasized for her liverand both her lungs at that point.
And so they gave her four monthsto live 4, 4 to 6 months.
And the irony, the craziness of it,was that my other daughter,
my middle daughterAmanda, was pregnant and delivered
(08:11):
the next day, her baby and
the daughter in the hospital getting.
I mean, it was like a death sentenceto tell somebody
28 years old that, you know,you have 4 to 6 months to live.
And then here, Amanda's having Ari,the sweetest boy, their first child.
And talk about a mixture of emotion.
(08:31):
Absolutely.
And not knowing how to handlejust overwhelming raw emotion.
And so I went with no sleepfrom the Friday night when my kids
had called, asking me to call backso they could tell me.
And until Monday night, Monday night,you know, a couple of nights
later was my first night of sleep.
I just I couldn't process it.
(08:53):
Yeah, no,that's a huge shock for everyone.
That's like, cancer is a very horriblediagnosis to get.
And when it's that terminalfrom the first notice
of our first awareness that it's there,that's like really overwhelming.
But it ended up taking a year, right?
It did.
It took exactly a year.
(09:13):
So, she was given more time.
And I, I have to believe thatthere's a reason for that because I saw
some things happen during that time pastthat six month mark that were important.
And I think that there is, there'ssomething to be said for sometimes people
need to come to peace in relationshipsand, and areas of their life may be before
they are able to let go and leave hereand for other people to do the same.
(09:37):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, tell us about your grief journey.
Wow Well,I mentioned that my mom passed away
three months before Megan was sick,and my mom was like my best friend.
I just, I, my dad had passed, and,
I called my mom every day, and,I don't know that my mom ever gave advice
when I called and asked for itas much as just honey, it'll work out.
(10:00):
But that was reassuring.
And so of all the people to not have here,it was so hard to not have my mom.
At that point, when Megan was diagnosedand already had eight
deaths and all but two were family,and I just felt like,
I wanted to do, like, a time outsign to God
and hold it up to the sky and kind of say,we're done for now, aren't we?
(10:23):
Like, enough is enough. And
yeah, even saying that, I feel like
I don't know what I would have donewithout my faith, honestly.
But I was already so overwhelmed and,like, raw with my own grief.
So I had gone to a program called
Grief Share right after I lost my mom.
And those that don't know about it, GriefShare is a great program.
(10:45):
It's typically held in a church,
and you can go on the websitefor their information.
But when I got to the first class,the couple had lost a son
and I couldn't relatebecause it was just after losing my mom
and we didn't know yetabout Megan's diagnosis.
And I thought,I don't know if I'm going to stay in this.
I can't really relate.
I lost my momand most of the people had lost a spouse.
(11:07):
Or the final
night of the class was rightafter the weekend
that we found out about Megan's diagnosisand I just thought, wow,
people talk about God showed up
and that doesn't work for me.
I feel like you have to beg himand beg him and call and call.
But he finally showed up,and that's discouraging to me.
But what encourages me as realizingand looking back at how many times
(11:31):
during that year and that whole griefjourney, how God actually went before us.
And that was one of the timesthat was one of the first, recognitions
for methat, wow, I was in the right group.
This couple knew my pain.
They I mean, those peoplejust rose up around me.
They got me a plane ticket.
And, few days later,I was on the plane to Tucson.
But I think the biggest thingwas just realizing
(11:54):
that this is a really unique loss, thoughit's death.
Nobody expects their child to go first.
And so that was a whole nother journey to
to figure out, Just,how do you manage this kind of grief?
It's unexpected.
I think everyone's grief is unexpected.
And and no one’s is greateror less than the next person's.
(12:17):
And I don't want that to be heard at allhere.
But it is a unique loss.
And they're saying, that if you if youlose your parents, you're an orphan.
If you lose a spouse,you're a widow or a widower.
If it's not a word, when you lose a child,there's just there's not a word.
There's not a and you you question,am I still mom
(12:37):
and people ask, well,how many kids do you have?
And you stumble over do I say two?
Do I say three?
And that just I'm still, 12 years later,
that question throws me up on usand and I know I have three children,
but it just kind ofjust stops me in my tracks every time.
It's interesting.
(12:57):
I know that one of the things thatthat we'll, we might as well just say it
right now is that the grief kind of last,like I remember, you were in a year.
We took a class of minea couple months ago,
and you said that night, I think this isthe 12th anniversary of Megan's.
Yeah.
And you had tears in your eyes,
(13:18):
and you said it's been 12 years, but it's.
It's so fresh still,and it still, it still hurts a lot.
And I still need comfort.
And I still need to know that
people understand.
And I think that's kind of the catalystof what started
this conversationthat we're doing right now is just.
(13:40):
Yeah, it's, it is different.
It's different.
And I think,
just to help people understand,one of the things, I had tears that night.
You're right.
It wasit was before the class, even though
there was something you had said, evenI know I went up to talk to you about. But
one of the things I tell our moms isI think we're always going to miss them.
I don't think that's going to change.
(14:01):
So every anniversary, holiday, whatever,
their birthday or their passing day,those are monumental dates for us.
And, do I feel the wayI felt the first year or two? No.
I want to give that hope to moms.
I want to give them almost a promise.
If I could promise that itthe intensity of the pain is not the same
(14:24):
as it was then, but there's so many thingsthat can trigger trigger
the feelings, bring it backlike it's right now or just yesterday.
And I think that's always going to happen.
I think that's ourare this side of heaven experience
until we're gone is whether it's a song,somebody mentions Brandon Heath’s
name, and Megan got to singlike them on stage at her church in Tucson
(14:47):
and and I hear his nameand I'll have tears,
just so many, I hear the two songsthat, got me through that that year.
Every time I got in Megan's old Pinto car.
Hot as ever, with no AC.
The song by Laura Storywould come called blessings of a song
at Redmond 10,000 Reasonsfor My Heart to find.
(15:07):
And that actually spurred me onwhen I came back
to start a journal toto come up with 10,000 reasons,
for my heart
to be able to say I can still praise you.
Wow. Even in the paint well,and in the paint and I would think that
when you have other children or you don't,that anything even good with your other
(15:29):
children would bring that, oh, I'mnever going to get to do this with Megan.
Kind of like, child gets marriedor a child has a baby or the,
you know, it's like all of those.
So they would that bittersweetness,of even something
with your other childthat's wonderful would kind of remind you.
Oh, I don't get to do this and not get it.
(15:49):
And I think that's a part of grief.
we're not saying that grief is bad.
No, that the feelings are badbecause God created us
and he created us in his image.
And God grieves in the Bible,he talks about his grief over Israel’s
sins, and overthe fact that and Israel left
him, abandoned him,that he, had believe it, isn't it?
(16:11):
Is it Habakkuk
where the book where he talksabout having to divorce Israel, and, his
he talks all about his feelingsand the grief and the loss.
So, I mean, grief is healthy and necessary
and it for not just, deaths,but for any loss.
But so we're not saying it's bad.
In fact,the more aware you are of the process
(16:34):
and how it worksand what you're feeling, the easier
it will beand the more awareness you have.
And the tearsare our tears of remembrance.
I think looking at them even as thatthey're tears
of love and remembrance of and connection.
Because when you can remember herand remember these things about her,
(16:55):
that is part of what is healing
in the grief journey, is knowingthat you won't forget her.
Exactly. Yeah.
She still lives onand and say to people to normal,
you know, grief is just a normal reactionto any loss.
Job loss, a change of a church,a change of a job.
(17:18):
you're letting something go,that was important or dear to you.
And how do you do that?
And so I do feel like it's a processand it's very normal.
And I think sometimes
when people see somebody crying,or they say something and the person cries
and we'll talk later about my experienceat the restaurant the other day.
Yeah.
Sometimes it's just tears of joy,
(17:38):
like you'reyou're happy with the thought or whatever.
But even if it's not, I just.
I, I like to remind people to not see itas the person's not doing well, that
they're not dealing with it or they're,you they've they're regressing.
It's just a normal part.
It's and it's a normal part.
And when I read two words, Jesus wept.
(18:00):
Yeah.
The words is thought to be normal.
We were made in his image. Yeah.
And so you're talking a little bitabout Umbrella Ministries
when you come around moms,which is the group that we mentioned
at the beginning that it is, where you goand support moms who have lost a child.
Now, did Umbrella Ministries come aroundyou and support you?
(18:20):
Is thator did you learn about it afterwards?
Well, I didn't even know it existed.
And what happened is the churchI was at yesterday that had their 50 year
reunion, where we hadraised our kids in the beginning.
One of the women had kind of followed
my story on, on Facebookor just the situation with Megan's cancer,
and she connected me with the pastor’swife at that time.
(18:43):
We were already gone from the churchwhen this pastor and his wife came,
but she they had lost a child
and she was the one that ledthis Orange County group of moms.
And so this mutual friend connected us
literally the day afterI got home from Tucson. Wow.
They invited me to attend a WestCoast conference.
(19:05):
We have an annual conference on the WestCoast, one in Colorado, one back east.
And I said yes.
With a lot of hesitation, I drove myself,I thought, if I want to get out of there.
I got an escape plan already in my head.
But that was the start of my journeywith them.
For me.
(19:25):
I did go back to Grief.
Share, about six months later,but because Grief
Shares weeklythat that's a positive thing.
I think in the beginning,
when your emotions are so rawand you need somewhere to talk about it
and you need support aroundyou and surrounding you,
I think that's a really helpfuldifference.
We meet monthly.
(19:46):
I had not even been to
one of their monthly meetingsyet, and I went to this conference
and the mom, who both sang and shared,had also lost a daughter in an accident.
And I just felt likeI know I absorbed what I could,
and it probably was only minusculecompared to what was presented,
but that's all it could take in.
(20:06):
But that was the start of my connectionwith umbrella Ministries here
on the West Coast, and joining that groupthat the pastor's wife led.
And eventually,when they retired and moved
to South Carolina,I was asked to take on that group.
And I just feel like it's an honorand a privilege
because it's a way I can give back.
(20:27):
Those moms support in me.
They walked with me and I don't thinkanyone can do grief alone. No.
It's I think it's not healthyand it's possible.
I think, we'rewe're meant to be in community
and we're meant to, share the burdens.
I mean, it makes it lighter.
It doesn't take it away, you know,but it makes it lighter.
(20:50):
Yeah, totally.
And I totally agree with that.
So, okay, now we're going to get into thethe nitty gritty here.
What weresome of the things that people said to you
or that, you know, that people can say
when somebody is not just grievingthe loss of a child, but any loss, right.
We want to talk about any of these.
(21:11):
Well, your your experiences with grievingmostly with I mean, obviously you lost
lots of people in your life, but,including your mom, but,
what are some of the thingsthat help you with grief?
Okay.
I, I hate to do this,
but I'm actually going to startwith the negative stuff that I'm.
You canthat's another one of our questions.
I don't know, that's the next question.
(21:32):
And I you know, my my gut feelingwas to start with the negative, but,
I know and I sure I even wrote that down,you know, I,
I hate to do this,but I'm going to start with the negative.
And the only reason is,you know, we're in so much pain.
And again, this doesn't applyjust to someone who's lost a child.
But obviously the specificwhat I'm going to talk about
are some of those things that were saidwhen I lost me.
(21:54):
And, and one of the hardest ones
that hurts so much is when people ask,Will you have other children?
Don't you?
And you kind of feel like,
yeah, I, I do, but like,could we trade in like, let's
send yours off and let me get mine backbecause apparently it won't bother you.
Yeah. No,that's not what the person means.
(22:17):
And in everything that I'm going to sayright now, please know we we get
as we start to heal that people meanwell, yes,
their words are, are well-intended.
And I probably saidsome of this stuff myself and had no idea
that you were saying that personthat's grieving their loss
(22:38):
and how how maybe it didn't
help them andand it actually created more depression?
Well, I think people actually say itout of awkwardness
and not knowing what to say,and they start to grasp at straws.
So I don't think they're being mean.
I think they just don't know what to say,especially as the grief goes on later.
It's kind of like, well,I know what to say.
(23:00):
I'm sorry for your loss.
Things like that, when it's really like,you know, close
and it just happenedor it's the memorial service or what.
But like years down the line,it's like, well, what do you say?
it feels really awkward.
And I think the thing that you said,and I'll say it again probably soon, is
(23:20):
just to be able to say I'm sorrybecause nobody can change it.
And so, some of the,some of the hard things and I know we've
talked about the don't letter, a letterthat was written and we're not still sure
who wrote the letter, but it's about whatnot to say following up with what to say.
And so some of those things were,
we have other children or,do you have other children?
(23:41):
We have moms like, they've lostboth their children who had an only child,
and now they have none.
And so that first
Mother's Day, comes aroundand they don't know what to say to people.
They're asking themself, am I still a mom?
Am I a mom anymore?
And so, it triggers those emotions again.
I think some of the hard things
(24:02):
and this is me saying iteven as a believer, some of the hard stuff
was people eitherquoting verses or saying, well,
at least you know where she is,or at least you know you'll see her again.
Or at least she's not in pain anymore.
Well, I'm the first to want my daughternot to be any pain anymore.
I watched you lose 100 pounds and,the year went by
(24:22):
and the year was just increasedpain on a daily basis.
And of course, I didn'twant that for my daughter.
And of course, I'm relievedshe's not in pain.
But some of the comments,I do know I'm going to see her again.
So now, 12 years later,it's easy for me to just be grateful
about that andand even be able to celebrate that part.
(24:43):
There's a dayand a time I'm going to get to see her.
It's it's true.
But initially those wordsactually hurts, okay.
Because we want them here.
Now again, we want to say can we canI trade out my daughter
and I'd like to have her backto see a wedding and children
and all the things that, you know,to finally graduate from college.
So as her friend started graduating,you know, those were triggers.
(25:08):
And as her friends started to get marriedand have children, I was happy for them.
And I to this day, I'm happy for them.
And their kids now are, 12 years oldand they have their degrees.
But there was a sadnessthat that didn't happen for Megan,
and those were goalsshe wanted in her life.
Yeah, those are hard to hear at first.
(25:29):
And to say something like, we'll just,
maybe focus on other things in your lifeand move forward.
How is that how does thathow is that received?
Well, we're lucky.
You're lucky we stand there still.
And don't just walk away.
Honestly, that's.Why did that hurt so much?
It hurts because two things.
(25:50):
We will never move on.
There's no such thing.
They're always a part of us.
Like I carried my childconnected with an umbilical cord.
My whole nine months,we were tied together like right
in every way for her to eator breathe or whatever.
So that part, moving on is, is a phraseI try not to use.
(26:12):
What we tend to say that I think to me,works better to talk about moving forward.
I don't go from hereand not stay stuck in my grief.
That does feel overwhelming initiallyand like it's
never going to let up and the intensityis never going to go away.
How do I get from that place?
Or the, not accepting it
(26:34):
and wanting it to be different than it is?
That can help us stay stuck tohow do I go from there to moving forward,
to finding that I wake upand I still have breath so it means
I'm still supposed to be here,and there's something meant for me to do.
And being able
then to start to pursue those things,not forgetting our child because we won't.
(26:56):
Right.
Maybe not being able to avoid the triggersthat come when you least expect it.
We all know the tears comewhen that's the least Convenient time.
If there is a convenient time.
And so it'show do we, we talk about a new normal.
That because it'll never be the same.
I now have one less child here on Earth
and one less of many celebrations.
(27:18):
I had planned on.
So we talk instead abouthow do I move forward.
I love embracing the grace, the grief.
I'm sorry.
Embracing the grief as we are movinginto acceptance.
Right.
And and the acceptanceis the end of the grief process
or the or the placethat you're working through the grief
(27:40):
so you can get to that acceptance.Can you think of any more,
any more,
about those that are hurtful, know
things that are hurtful,that people say hurtful
and let the main thingsI think were, us not wanting,
I think it's it's us not wanting themto forget, like our child's now passed
up and gone and they're out of our mindbecause they won't be.
(28:04):
And so I think really that leads meto, to the things that are helpful to say,
okay.
And, one of one of the best comments,I think, that was made to me, my son in
law's brother pastored a messianic churchand, studied in Israel.
And, he said to methat, in Western culture,
we don't really understand how to grieve,which impedes, or impairs our healing.
(28:28):
That number one.
But Jewish traditiondid know how their sackcloth and ashes.
They had whalers that wailed.
I mean, they they wailed, for
you didn't have to be your own wailing,which is perfectly fine if you know.
Right.
But they actually had peoplethat wailed. Yes!
Isn't that crazy?
(28:49):
That's so hardto imagine in Western culture. But.
But it's hard to imaginebecause we live in a fast
food society where we drive through,and I'm the first to do it.
That'swhy I go to Starbucks instead of Peet's,
because Starbucks is drive thruand I'm impatient, But everything we do
here is quick, neat, tidy and move on.
And so it doesn't allow a placeor a space for grieving.
(29:14):
And without that, how do we get to healingor how do we work through
grieving towards healing and healing?
To this day, 12 years later, Scott's words
still resonate with me and the realitybe that wow.
Because if we dotry and stop the grieving,
which stops the healing, we stay stuck.
(29:34):
Yeah we do.
And so some of the thingsI think some of the really helpful things
that people said, I'm going to be honest,is I'm sorry
and I have no words.
I don't say I have no words.
That's the truth.
And we can sit well with that.
We don't have words or answers either.
We want them, but nothing's immediate,that's for sure.
(29:57):
And so it's almost like itputs a stamp of approval for us.
It's okay to be where you are.
It's not discounting, it's validating.
So all of the things I was thinkingas you were saying them and then we have
we have the don't letterthat we're going to the don't letter.
We're like what not to do and what to do.
I'm going to put a link to itbelow the podcast notes
(30:18):
or the YouTube video notes,so you can link to it
and download it for yourselffor those that are listening.
But when I look back over those,it's like the things
that are hurtful or harmful,they're discounting.
They're discountingand minimizing of your pain.
And the things that arehelpful are validating.
So yeah, I have no words.
I don't know what to say.
(30:39):
That's saying to you why that was huge.
That's a huge loss.
That's a big deal.
And that feels like people understand.
Yes, exactly.
But I think that I think that's whythat, that actually,
the moms that say, I can't even imagineit's true.
I couldn’t eitherand I certainly could imagine
I could ever get through somethinglike this, and again, not move on,
(31:03):
but move forward, be able to,to celebrate life, to be able to enjoy
the good things that are still around meand the good things
that still happen for meand for other people.
Remembering the date of your child'slike birthday or the date of your loss.
And that is, I was convicted reading thatbecause there's somebody close to me
that I've not been good about, that
because I'm not good on anniversariesand birthdays and I'm really busy.
(31:27):
But I need to do a better job,
and I'm actuallygoing to apologize to her.
And I haven't decided if I'm going tocall her or send her a card, or probably
send her a card.
She's really big on sending cards,and I'm just going to tell her, I'm
so very sorryfor not remembering the birthday
and the the anniversary of his death,
(31:48):
because I love her and I know her.
And that's more important than rememberingand remembering the birthdays of people
that are alive.
If I can't do that, then I but that's
I don't wantI don't want that to be hurtful to her.
And so I'm actually going to I'mactually going to do that
after reading this letterand thinking about this topic.
(32:10):
So I don't know, thatI hope will make up a little bit
for me being so lax with that. And
it's, anything else I can tell you?
She'll appreciate your apology.She really will.
Because the first year peopleremember the year, all the significant
anniversaries, the birthday,the passing, holidays, all of that.
(32:31):
People remember that first year.
It's fresh for them as well. In year two.
I hate to say this,but we say that's a harder year.
And it's because for everyone else,their life does go on
and that's not wrong.
And we're not mad about it, but ourswe are just coming out of being numb.
(32:51):
Yeah.
And now it's very realand it becomes even more
real as we feel like we're the only onesthat remember those things.
My sister in law to this day still sendsa card for that, and I'm so grateful.
And my daughter calls.
But those are still daysthat we are never going to forget.
And we're reminded on not even the day up, but leading up to it.
(33:14):
So many of my moms in my groupwill say the same thing
that they're really struggling,and then they look back
and they realize itwasn't just the day of.
It's the weeks coming up to it.
And other peopleare understanding those emotions.
I hate to, liken it to say, when
when you have your period,how you are beforehand.
Our emotions are youthey just feel out of control
(33:38):
and then you're like,oh, this makes sense.
now I know that to the people in my lifethat that have grieved like, losses
and that it is as, oh, it's coming up
to that anniversary,it's like and and and I'll just be honest,
like my daughter lost a boyfriendto suicide way back when she was 18.
(34:00):
And for 15 years she still celebrated
that death and I mean, not celebrated.
She was strugglingwith the anniversary of that death.
And there were times that I would wantto say to her, just get over it.
Like move on.
And, especially becauseit was, a boyfriend when she was younger.
But but that was a big deal to her.
(34:22):
And it's very painful.
And that was me not understandingand not me
not being at times super empathetic,quite honestly, because I wanted her
as a mom just to be like, okay,it's like you're living like be okay.
That doesn't help.
Yeah, that doesn't help at all.
So, or just say, count your blessings.
(34:43):
Look at all the you still havetwo beautiful children, and you're having,
like, look at everything around youand how God blessed you.
It isn't that we've forgotten thosebecause I haven't.
But right now,this other thing is really overwhelming.
And, we're just trying to
put pieces back together as somethingthat sort of imploded in our life.
The big go ahead. No.
(35:04):
And I think the simple thing to sayto people, if you can't remember
the specifics, is just to saythe things that are validating, like,
I'm sorry, there are no words like,just give them a hug.
The other thing that, you mentioned,and I've also heard that really struck
me, is ask the person about their childand use the child's name.
(35:27):
Yes, but tell me about Meganand now I'm going to let you tell me
just because wewe jumped into it, I want to
I want you to tellthe story of what happened.
And then just in your notes, back
to the Ministry of Presence toI want to make sure to talk about that.
So just short story, but I was at Ihopthe other day and I was just really going
(35:50):
over the questionsthat you had asked me, to focus on.
And when I finished writing,I kind of finished up the final question.
It was like, what's somethingyou would want people to know?
What would I want to say?
And I wrote it down was two sentencesI wrote down,
and then I put all my thingsback in my bag to leave.
(36:12):
And there was a woman, two womenthat sat down at the table behind me.
And so when I went to put my thingsin my bag,
I noticed this woman's hair,her beautiful, really,
really shorthair looked a lot like Jamie Lee Curtis.
when she has that super shortcropped hair.
And that's how my daughter's hair lookedwhen it started to grow back in,
(36:34):
she had had her head shaved,so she was bald
as she started to lose so much hairand how discouraging that was for her.
And so when it was shaved, itgrew back in,
and it grew back in like a auburn color.
I saw this woman's hair and literallyit was like seeing Megan's head.
And I justI had tears, but I started to talk to her
(36:57):
and compliment her on her hairand just say how beautiful it was.
And she said, well,most people ask if I had cancer.
And she said, I didn't.
I just did this and it's total freedom.
And I said, well, I love it
because it looks just like my daughterwho did have cancer.
It looks just like her hair.
And so, she she said, I'm sorry,about losing my daughter.
(37:18):
But then she said,what's your daughter's name?
And tell me about your daughter.
And so I said, just a minute.
And I grabbed my, notepad out of my bag,and I said, just read these two sentences.
And it was the answerto what you had asked me
about, is there some final thingI would want to say to people?
(37:39):
Those two sentences
I wrote and I capitalized themso they were big and bold.
And I said,
please ask us about our child.
Please ask us to tell you about our childand please say their name.
And I start crying because it was actuallysweet tears that somebody did that.
I didn't have to ask them,and they didn't ask any of the
(38:02):
hard questions or make the hard comments.
I was so grateful.
And so after we talked a little bit,she said, but I really want to hear
more about Megan.
Like she remembered her name
and then continued the conversationand it meant the world to me.
A total stranger. She doesn't know me.
She doesn't know my story.
She doesn't knowall I've just said to you.
(38:24):
Yeah, I just really, really like
it was a picture of exactly what you had
just written, that you wantedpeople really to grasp.
And don't let me.
And this thought just came tomy mind, does it is it helpful
or hurtful to ask, what did she die of?
Is that not a good thing?
Does that bring up the negative?
(38:45):
And she did.
She asked after she wantedto hear about Megan and then she asked it.
It is okay. It is okay.
I think it
almost deserves a follow up againif I'm sorry
or something, because otherwiseyou both stand there and it's awkward.
Yeah.
But no, I think it'sokay to say definitely.
(39:06):
And I think sometimes then peopleby knowing it is less awkward that way.
So. Yes.
And so that's so that's okay.
Just because I'm always kind of afraid,I feel like, oh,
is that too personalor am I bringing up too much negative?
And, but you're saying that
at least for you and for other moms, it'sokay to ask what happened?
(39:27):
It is okay for me. I'm.
I'm not uncomfortable by it. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah.
And, so I think we've got I think we'vegone through a lot of the, the questions.
Is there something elsethat you can think of?
I'm going to put up the don't letter.
I'm definitely going to, let'ssee if there's any,
just some of the other things that helpit says cry with us if you want to.
(39:49):
I know address told me how therapy,how healing it was for a therapist
even that they that listen to themto actually get tears in their eyes
when they were sharing that pain to,to literally,
again,this is letting you know that people feel
actually what you're feeling
(40:11):
or at least can understandand they're validating.
So I think really a lot of itis just validating and then remembering
that your daughter was ashe was a person, she really was someone.
And it gives you a chance to,like you said,
remember her and to almost think of her.
And it's happy tears, the tearsof remembering, everything about her.
(40:35):
Like we want to share our childwith someone.
We want them to know our childas much as the ones that are living.
And that allows us to do it.
Yeah, I know you read from the letter and,
it'll say both thingsnot to say and things to say.
You post that.
But one of the thingsthat isn't mentioned a lot,
(40:56):
but I think it's be is be getting to be
is this idea of a ministry of presence.
And what I found is sometimes,there's not always words to say.
And sometimes all we neededwas the hug or them just sitting with us.
And so after Megan's service herein California, two friends came back to
(41:16):
the house with me to bring, some flowersand some things that I had put out.
There were, memories of Megan's,
and they didn't have any magic wordsbecause there aren't any.
Nothing's going to change his tuition.
I was so overwhelmed because this isthe home that my kids were raised.
This is where Megan, she was born here.
(41:37):
And the thought that I came hometo a house that she never
come back to it.
No one ever come visit this house again.
I really struggled with that.
And, so one of the friendsjust sat with me.
The other one,it was kind of like Mary and Martha,
and one just went about organizingand unloading the car
(41:57):
and bringing things inand doing that part of it.
And the other, one is sat with me.
And that's what I need.
And, I refer to itas a ministry of presence.
We met this month at a restaurant,my group at something we do once a year
and talk about the conferencethat we had just gone to.
And one of the moms just neededsomebody to listen, just needed time.
(42:20):
And it's been,I think, three years now for her.
And I didn't think of it as she slippedback or she's not doing well today.
Her son's birthday
was going to be at about four days,so she was anticipating that.
And sometimes we just needsomebody to listen, and sometimes
we just need somebody to sit with usbecause that's a way to affirm, yeah,
(42:41):
the fact that there's tears or that we,are just grieving, but we're sad, right?
Then it's okay.
You like their approval,with their arm around
you or them just sitting with you andand if you're the kind of person
that maybe wants to ask permission, that'sokay too.
So, you know, sometimes I've had peoplesay, can I hug you?
I'm a absolutely.
(43:02):
Yes, you can hug me, person,but that allows somebody
who maybe isn't comfortablewith that, to say, that's okay.
And then you know thatmaybe they don't need that right now
or they're going to get a hugfrom somebody else later.
But I'm a person that's good with that.
And so maybe asking permission or, evensaying, can I ask you about your child?
(43:23):
And if they're not in a place to talkabout it, it gives them permission to say,
well, maybe another time.
Okay, perfect, I love it, I like that.
And then also again, thinking back towhen someone cries.
Yeah, in Western culture, we're no,we're not comfortable with grief.
And when someone breaks downour first instinct, if we're not,
accustomed to thator haven't really thought it through is
(43:44):
I gotta, I gotta make this person feelbetter to get this person to stop.
And that isn't the best thingfor that person.
The best thing for that personis to be able to let it out
and to be, like you said, validatedor just supported.
And sometimes that support is sayingnothing like Job's friends.
I think in the end, Job's friendswith Job's friends didn't
(44:07):
they sit with him for a weekand just said nothing?
Yeah.
And then after that,they opened their mouth
and they started sayingreally stupid things. Yes,
that's that's a perfect
example of a of a book, you know, ofhow to do it and how not to do it.
Exactly. Right.
They had it right for a weekand then they couldn't handle it anymore.
(44:28):
All the things that were running through
their head started just coming outand causing problems for them.
And again,maybe it is because they now get up
and they move on with their life,but we're still trying to figure out
what is the new normal.
Where do I go from here?What do I do with the memories?
What do we do with our clothes?
(44:49):
What do I do with their things?
You know what I mean? We're not.
We're just at the startof the grieving process
and then understanding, like you said,that you said the first year
we're just coming out of,like, the shock, and the denial and
and that sounds crazy,but the shock denial is actually
a it's like a help for emotionallyand physically.
(45:13):
God created us in that.
We go through thatbecause the denial is like
a shock absorber,to where you don't feel it as intensely.
Because if you feltit too intensely at first,
it would be so overwhelmingyou couldn't deal with it.
So it's actually that little cushion,
and it takes a while to slowly kind ofcome out of that and get to where.
(45:36):
But when you're in that, in that shockdenial, one of the
one of the actual physiologicalthings that happens as a result of
that is your brain does not work well.
It's part of being in that fight,flight is what it really is.
You'reshut down to your rational thinking.
You're shut down to problems solving.
And so you have a really difficult timewith functioning,
(45:58):
like putting on your shoes,figuring out what to wear,
figuring outhow to like what to take care of.
So I have people that are in your life.
What's really helpful is to say,what do you need me to do?
Like anything, just tell me.
I don't care if it's like cleaning outa closet, or if it's answering letters,
(46:21):
or if it's making phone calls,or if it's cooking a meal or whatever
it is, or cleaning up your house,driving you to an appointment.
What do you need me to do?
Yeah, that's probably honest on that one.
A lot of times people will say,let me know if you need anything.
I'll tell you the grieving person'snot going to call you and say one thing.
It's not it
(46:41):
if they even know what they need.
Okay.
And so sometimes it's that, you seethe clothes are hanging on
the clothesline.You go take them down for them, okay?
You see that?
They dump the load of laundry on the couchand it needs to be folded,
and you just start foldingwhile you're talking or whatever.
But we're probably not going to pickthe phone up and say, this is what I need.
Makes it hard for for people to know.
(47:03):
I get that,and nobody's a mind reader, but,
one of the things I had written downwas to talk about brain fog and, it's
and they talk aboutwith cancer, too, cancer fog.
And if you've ever seen in James Pollackpicture, artwork that he's done
and it looks like he's flung painteverywhere on the canvas, I just flung it.
(47:24):
And it's like a mass of just colordripping everywhere.
Okay, it's like that.
Or a ball of yarn or a bowl of spaghetti.
It just wound in all different directions.
And so that that brain fog to realityfor the person
that's grieving the, and to just saywe're not in our right mind.
(47:45):
No we're not we can't think clearly.
We can't sort things out.
We're we're trying to just get our feetout of bed
and put shoes on and,walk out of the bedroom.
And so it's very real.
And I just
I want to encourage people to give grace,give a lot of grace to the person,
(48:05):
if they don't call youor if they don't call
and say what they needor they start to isolate,
you pick up the phonelike you, don't expect a lot.
Maybe it's what I'm saying,and just give a lot of grace as they're
trying to figure out how to go forward,how to start living and breathing
the next day, withoutand not just child, but any loved one.
(48:26):
You know, this applies to anyone.Grieving.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I remember, I think it was Joan Didion.
I can't even think of the nameof the book now.
She wrote a really powerful bookabout the loss of her husband
and she said things like, I,
I stood in front of the closetfor like an hour
trying to figure out, what to wearand that was never a hard decision for me.
(48:50):
And it was justfunctioning is very difficult.
So any other things that you wrote downthat were that you wanted to mention?
Yeah.
One thing I do want to mention,
and you you had her onrecently was Christine Lister,
because she and I havesome very similar, things about grief.
And one of them,yes I just want to mention, sometimes
the people that are closest to you, familyor friends are the people you think
(49:14):
will help you through it.
And the reality is that sometimesthat's not the case.
And so her word for it is process people.
So she actually gave me the,the language, the verbiage for
what those people were in my life.
And there were manyand some came out of Tucson
and Megan's church familythat came alongside me.
(49:37):
Some were people here, all these momsI didn't know who had lost a child,
so they certainly understood the pathI was on.
But those people are invaluableand they might not be many, and they might
not be the people you eitherexpect or hope will be there for you.
But I really believeGod brought the right people for me.
(49:58):
And of course, one groupwas Umbrella Ministries.
But, and I was lucky to have a best friendwho was by my side through it all.
I'm so grateful. But
don't be
surprised if it is other peoplethan who you expect.
And again, then there has to be gracefor the ones that aren't there for you.
(50:18):
Whatever their reason is.
For whatever reason, they can't.
I do believe, like, keep your eyes openfor the people that I believe God
puts in our path to be those people for usbecause they're there
and they know best how we feel.
And and if they're not there, do
(50:39):
reach out to a grouplike Umbrella Ministries.
So we're going to put the linksto all of that in the podcast notes like
or to Grief Share so that you can findthis like any other like problem.
You know, deal with finding peoplewho have gone through it
are the best people to walkyou through it.
Exactly.
And that's why we have supportgroups that are specific too.
(51:01):
So the question next questionI have is Umbrella Ministries.
Whether you've lost a childto sickness, to an accident,
to suicide, to a murder,do you come beside all those moms?
We do, we do.
And and I'm going to add in therethat sometimes,
the best thing is to find a therapistthat also deals with grief.
(51:25):
That's a really important piecesometimes medication, I understand that.
So there's, there's different toolsthat we want
people to utilize in Umbrella Ministries.
We do.
We have momsfrom all different situations.
Sometimes they attend our groupand grief share.
Sometimes isn't our group.
And there's a group called Solace for HopeI know that deals with
(51:47):
when it's drug overdoses.
So there are some specifics and though I'm
not on Facebook anymore,Umbrella Ministries has a Facebook page.
Yeah. And a website as well.
You'll be able to get all the informationfor areas, groups and conferences.
There.
The there's With Hope is a groupI know that walks
(52:08):
beside peoplewho have lost, a family member to suicide.
And then there is like, Mothers AgainstDrunk Driving MADD.
They come beside you when you've losta, family member.
Not just a child, but a family memberto a drunk driving accident.
So, I mean, there are specific groups,but I've.
I have referred multiple people to youwhen when I find somebody
(52:32):
come across somebody who's lost a child.
I always give them your numberbecause I just think the power
of having somebody personal to walklike you will call that person
and be willing to meet with that person,and you understand, and you'll
you'll talk to them on the phoneif they're struggling at a certain point.
And then you have your group meetings.
(52:53):
And, that's just afterI spent a lot of years and 12 step.
And that's invaluable,not just to have the meetings
people will understand,but actually somebody you can call
when you're struggling,that's somebody who will, sit there
and listen to you, or come meet with youand, and actually, like, listen to you.
So what would you, give me some thoughts,final thoughts to those listening
(53:15):
on how to supportsomebody who's lost a loved one.
Just I guess you can remind us.
I think we said what?
Ask to ask their name and ask usabout our child or our family member.
Right.
And probably we've said just to validateand just be there.
And what about those,who have actually lost a loved one?
(53:41):
What would you say to that person?
To that person?
I would say that there's hopeand there's healing
and I and also
process it with it's hardwork, really hard work.
And getting to a place of healingis hard work.
It doesn't come natural.
So we need those process people.
We need those groups.
(54:01):
We need whatever tools, and there's lots
of different ones and different thingswork for different people.
But I think we have to be intentionaland that's a challenge.
When your brain fog, it'shard to be intentional about it.
And I think you have to give yourselfgrace
during that time, too, and just say, look,this is the best I can do right now.
And there's a reason, understanding thatwith all of these things
(54:24):
that go along with grief,there's an emotional and a physiological
and maybe even a spiritual reason
that you're experiencing thatand that it's normal.
And if you don't know if it's normal,then you go to a therapist
or somebody who will help you figure out,is that normal?
Like,is there something to be worried about?
Or is this just part of the grief process?
(54:44):
Because I think understanding the griefprocess, what I feel like
any part of grief at all, I,I tell myself, oh,
you're feeling angry because you're,you're grieving that loss, like, like or
this is the
this is the pain
that's going on inside you right nowis you're actually grieving this.
And it feels really, good to understandwhy I'm feeling the way I am.
(55:06):
And it's great to knowthat it won't last forever, that it does
get to the point where you work through itand you reach acceptance.
And, I recently heard somebody say,after acceptance, with grief comes hope.
And I love that because after you doaccept it, it doesn't mean you're stuck.
It's kind of like, well, what's next?
And that's the hope.
The hope of whatever that is, the hope
(55:29):
that you'll be so, able to move forwardor you'll be able to minister
to others or, whatever that isthe hope is what's really beautiful.
So finding joy in life again,because it's,
being able to see the blessingsbecause they're there,
and maybe that's not what we need to hearin the beginning.
Again, of count your blessings.
(55:50):
You've got all these good things.
that's not wherewe're at in the beginning.
Right?
But the hope is that with the healing,
we come to that place,that we can see those things because.
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
I love that to to to know that you'regoing to be able to feel joy again.
Yeah. And that you'll be okay.
(56:12):
and I and I really like that.
So I think that's a great place to stop.
Thank you Jan thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I truly hope this is helpful for people,in any kind of grief.
But in particular, I,I reach out to the moms
who have lost a childand want to support them. Yes.
And I'm going to put,
all of the links to the organizationswe talked about the don't letter.
(56:36):
And also,you are associated with the Orange County,
California, USA group.
And so if they contact that group, which,I think I can put a link to that too.
Yes. And then definitely to the website.
And then that way, they can have groups,other groups, other leaders numbers.
(56:57):
And then for you,
I'm not going to put your personal contactbecause you're going to get spam stuff.
Oh okay.
So I'll just put the, the,Umbrella Ministries
link, which is Umbrella ministries.org
and you are listed on there as runningthe Orange County, California group.
There's other groups.
So please look for something in your area.
(57:20):
And then the Facebook is under UmbrellaMinistries Grief Support.
And you can find the grief supportFacebook group there
which is really helpful.
And then of course
that don't letter that we refer to, whichis actually very beautifully written.
So it really is.
And it's followed by what to say.
So yeah. What to say. So okay.
(57:42):
Well thank you for listeningto this podcast or video on
or watching this videoon Change My Relationship.
Please.
If there's somebody that you know thatyou think that would this would help
and maybe even somebody that you feel likeneeds to know how to better support
you, or maybe is frustratedthat you got upset about certain things.
(58:03):
If that's a if you feel likethat's a good idea, go ahead.
I've had people do that, like,here's here's why I've been so frustrated.
And it's kind of been validating and, andhelpful to the person, send it to them.
So, thank you for being here.
And Iwe look forward to having you next time.
God bless you.
(58:23):
Thank you.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
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Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
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karla@changemyrelationship.com
(58:46):
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.
(00:30):
Welcome to Change My Relationship podcast.
On some of my podcast.
I interview a person who has gone through
a specific relationship struggle
and has insights to share with you.
Today I have with me Jan Tamble
and she is the Orange County Leaderfor Umbrella Ministries,
(00:54):
which is a ministry for momswho have lost a child.
So she's going to talkabout her personal experience,
and then we are going to focus onjust what people can say.
That is helpful when you speakingto someone who's lost a child
and what people can saythat is not helpful.
(01:14):
And not to shame anyone.
Not to make them feel bad,but to give you insight
into what does help.
Because often the awkwardnessof not knowing what to say
is what causes us to saythe things that end up not helping.
So welcome, Jen.
(01:36):
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
And I should also say thatJan is a dear friend,
and I've known her for quite a while,including when your daughter died,
which was 12 years ago, is,I think, when we first were connected.
And, Yeah.
so I've known her for a whileand watched her
go through this journey and some others.
But todaywe're going to focus on this one.
And, we're going to start offwith, telling
(01:59):
having you tell us about your daughterMegan.
Okay. And we love to get to do this part.
Yeah.
My daughter Megan is my third child,my second daughter, my third child.
And I'm going to just describe herspunky and feisty.
She's says what she means.
She's really affectionate.
I miss those hugs and cuddles.
And she don't hold back on her words ever,she just spoke her mind for sure.
(02:24):
But, she loved kids.
She loved being an auntie.
She loved music, her friends.
She loved church, she loved to sing,and she really loved the Lord.
And that part's huge in our story,she really did.
Some things were really hard for Megangrowing up in school was one of them.
(02:45):
And so I'll talk about thata little bit later.
But school was toughand so was making friends.
So when she landed in Tucson,she got connected to a great church
in Tucson.
She made some great friendsthat were both her age and my age
that in the end, really came to surroundboth of us
with a lot of loveand a lot of care during the year.
(03:06):
Megan's cancer. So
that was a godsend.
The place that she ended
up, that she called homewas actually a blessing for both of us.
Yeah, because you were in Californiaand Tucson is about a 10
to 11 hour drive, of which I don't drive.
So it was always a flight tripto get there.
(03:28):
And, either way, it's not quick.
We know airports can be, but 10, 10or 11 hours is is a long journey.
When there was another medical emergencyand that happened often.
Well, how wonderful, though,that she had a group of people
that loved her and cared for herthat you could know
were therewhen you were not able to be there.
(03:48):
That is a huge blessing.
And it it goes way back.
I was at a reunion yesterday at the church
that we attended,you know, when Megan was born, actually.
And there's a person therewho actually connected me
in to Umbrella Ministry,so it's a whole nother back story.
So that was really exciting yesterdayto just be able to thank those people,
(04:10):
because even the people here in Californiawere a huge part of my story.
And often people would say,I should bring Megan here,
because my support group is here,but Megan's support
group was thereand I could see how much she needed that.
And so I'm I'm not a desert person.
I did not like the desert.
But I have just a wholenother story of how, the devotional
(04:33):
called streams in the desert.
How God just.
I don't know, miraculouslyplanted a flower when I got out of the car
next to where I was parked.
I think it was the only one in the, areawhere I was.
But all these little thingsthat made my experience
in truly in the desert, be manageable,even when it felt like it wasn't.
(04:53):
Yeah, that's a devotional I read like40 years ago for 20, 30 many years.
It's slow.
It's one of my very favorite devotionals.
Yeah, yeah.
How interesting that you read that one.
It's an old one,but it's it sticks in my mind
because now I have an experience connectedand actually a visual,
(05:14):
and did end up in hospice at the endat a really beautiful facility.
Again, we're in the desertand I don't find it to be pretty.
And the block wall around, her patio
blocked out all the dirtand all I could see was the mountains
and the blue skies,and it actually was really that.
And the fountain that was on herpatio were really calming,
(05:36):
peaceful things for me.
And that that was a blessing.
And that that's beautiful, that you findthat I try to do that too.
No matter where I am,I try to find something that is calming
or linked to nature.
And if it's if I'm around somethingthat doesn't like make me feel calm,
I will look up at the skyor I will look up at trees.
(05:59):
And there's always something that isbeautiful and calming in the environment.
And so that's really cool that youthat you remember that being
and its interesting that you say thatbecause, I don't tend to look at.
And so the verse
would come to my mindbecause when I would look over that
black wall, the only option was to stareat the wall or look up.
(06:22):
And I felt like, reminded of the verse,that says, you know, to look up.
And that's where we'll we'll see him.
We'll know that look up into the hillsfrom where it comes.
Your help.
The Lord help is from thelike the Lord God of.
Yeah. Yes. And I went.
I had thought, to write down exactly whereit's from, but it is that exact verse.
Yeah.
(06:42):
From where my help comes from. Yeah.
From when, where my help comes from.
There's a song with that too. So.
Yeah. Beautiful. Well,we have a lot in common.
Favorite verses,favorite ways of calming ourselves.
So is so Megan,are you willing to talk about, I mean, I
the bad part is the cancer.What kind of cancer was that?
You say it was about a year.
(07:03):
So, Megan,I had just lost my mom in January of 2012.
And three months later,Megan talked about not feeling good,
and she took herselfto the emergency room, and they just said,
it looks likethere's something going on in your liver.
And she had lost her job.
And so she was supposedto start a new job in a week.
And so in her mind,it was, I've got 90 days.
And then I'll have insuranceand I'll check into it.
(07:25):
And they gave her OxyContinand she left the hospital,
but she was going to be visiting her dad.
And so she chose not to continueto take it so she could drive down safely.
And I think after about three days,her pain was so intense
that her dad took her back to the hospitalwhere she had been in Tucson,
and they did more ran more tests,and they found the cancer
(07:48):
stage four colon cancer, which had
actually
metastasized for her liverand both her lungs at that point.
And so they gave her four monthsto live 4, 4 to 6 months.
And the irony, the craziness of it,was that my other daughter,
my middle daughterAmanda, was pregnant and delivered
(08:11):
the next day, her baby and
the daughter in the hospital getting.
I mean, it was like a death sentenceto tell somebody
28 years old that, you know,you have 4 to 6 months to live.
And then here, Amanda's having Ari,the sweetest boy, their first child.
And talk about a mixture of emotion.
(08:31):
Absolutely.
And not knowing how to handlejust overwhelming raw emotion.
And so I went with no sleepfrom the Friday night when my kids
had called, asking me to call backso they could tell me.
And until Monday night, Monday night,you know, a couple of nights
later was my first night of sleep.
I just I couldn't process it.
(08:53):
Yeah, no,that's a huge shock for everyone.
That's like, cancer is a very horriblediagnosis to get.
And when it's that terminalfrom the first notice
of our first awareness that it's there,that's like really overwhelming.
But it ended up taking a year, right?
It did.
It took exactly a year.
(09:13):
So, she was given more time.
And I, I have to believe thatthere's a reason for that because I saw
some things happen during that time pastthat six month mark that were important.
And I think that there is, there'ssomething to be said for sometimes people
need to come to peace in relationshipsand, and areas of their life may be before
they are able to let go and leave hereand for other people to do the same.
(09:37):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, tell us about your grief journey.
Wow Well,I mentioned that my mom passed away
three months before Megan was sick,and my mom was like my best friend.
I just, I, my dad had passed, and,
I called my mom every day, and,I don't know that my mom ever gave advice
when I called and asked for itas much as just honey, it'll work out.
(10:00):
But that was reassuring.
And so of all the people to not have here,it was so hard to not have my mom.
At that point, when Megan was diagnosedand already had eight
deaths and all but two were family,and I just felt like,
I wanted to do, like, a time outsign to God
and hold it up to the sky and kind of say,we're done for now, aren't we?
(10:23):
Like, enough is enough. And
yeah, even saying that, I feel like
I don't know what I would have donewithout my faith, honestly.
But I was already so overwhelmed and,like, raw with my own grief.
So I had gone to a program called
Grief Share right after I lost my mom.
And those that don't know about it, GriefShare is a great program.
(10:45):
It's typically held in a church,
and you can go on the websitefor their information.
But when I got to the first class,the couple had lost a son
and I couldn't relatebecause it was just after losing my mom
and we didn't know yetabout Megan's diagnosis.
And I thought,I don't know if I'm going to stay in this.
I can't really relate.
I lost my momand most of the people had lost a spouse.
(11:07):
Or the final
night of the class was rightafter the weekend
that we found out about Megan's diagnosisand I just thought, wow,
people talk about God showed up
and that doesn't work for me.
I feel like you have to beg himand beg him and call and call.
But he finally showed up,and that's discouraging to me.
But what encourages me as realizingand looking back at how many times
(11:31):
during that year and that whole griefjourney, how God actually went before us.
And that was one of the timesthat was one of the first, recognitions
for methat, wow, I was in the right group.
This couple knew my pain.
They I mean, those peoplejust rose up around me.
They got me a plane ticket.
And, few days later,I was on the plane to Tucson.
But I think the biggest thingwas just realizing
(11:54):
that this is a really unique loss, thoughit's death.
Nobody expects their child to go first.
And so that was a whole nother journey to
to figure out, Just,how do you manage this kind of grief?
It's unexpected.
I think everyone's grief is unexpected.
And and no one’s is greateror less than the next person's.
(12:17):
And I don't want that to be heard at allhere.
But it is a unique loss.
And they're saying, that if you if youlose your parents, you're an orphan.
If you lose a spouse,you're a widow or a widower.
If it's not a word, when you lose a child,there's just there's not a word.
There's not a and you you question,am I still mom
(12:37):
and people ask, well,how many kids do you have?
And you stumble over do I say two?
Do I say three?
And that just I'm still, 12 years later,
that question throws me up on usand and I know I have three children,
but it just kind ofjust stops me in my tracks every time.
It's interesting.
(12:57):
I know that one of the things thatthat we'll, we might as well just say it
right now is that the grief kind of last,like I remember, you were in a year.
We took a class of minea couple months ago,
and you said that night, I think this isthe 12th anniversary of Megan's.
Yeah.
And you had tears in your eyes,
(13:18):
and you said it's been 12 years, but it's.
It's so fresh still,and it still, it still hurts a lot.
And I still need comfort.
And I still need to know that
people understand.
And I think that's kind of the catalystof what started
this conversationthat we're doing right now is just.
(13:40):
Yeah, it's, it is different.
It's different.
And I think,
just to help people understand,one of the things, I had tears that night.
You're right.
It wasit was before the class, even though
there was something you had said, evenI know I went up to talk to you about. But
one of the things I tell our moms isI think we're always going to miss them.
I don't think that's going to change.
(14:01):
So every anniversary, holiday, whatever,
their birthday or their passing day,those are monumental dates for us.
And, do I feel the wayI felt the first year or two? No.
I want to give that hope to moms.
I want to give them almost a promise.
If I could promise that itthe intensity of the pain is not the same
(14:24):
as it was then, but there's so many thingsthat can trigger trigger
the feelings, bring it backlike it's right now or just yesterday.
And I think that's always going to happen.
I think that's ourare this side of heaven experience
until we're gone is whether it's a song,somebody mentions Brandon Heath’s
name, and Megan got to singlike them on stage at her church in Tucson
(14:47):
and and I hear his nameand I'll have tears,
just so many, I hear the two songsthat, got me through that that year.
Every time I got in Megan's old Pinto car.
Hot as ever, with no AC.
The song by Laura Storywould come called blessings of a song
at Redmond 10,000 Reasonsfor My Heart to find.
(15:07):
And that actually spurred me onwhen I came back
to start a journal toto come up with 10,000 reasons,
for my heart
to be able to say I can still praise you.
Wow. Even in the paint well,and in the paint and I would think that
when you have other children or you don't,that anything even good with your other
(15:29):
children would bring that, oh, I'mnever going to get to do this with Megan.
Kind of like, child gets marriedor a child has a baby or the,
you know, it's like all of those.
So they would that bittersweetness,of even something
with your other childthat's wonderful would kind of remind you.
Oh, I don't get to do this and not get it.
(15:49):
And I think that's a part of grief.
we're not saying that grief is bad.
No, that the feelings are badbecause God created us
and he created us in his image.
And God grieves in the Bible,he talks about his grief over Israel’s
sins, and overthe fact that and Israel left
him, abandoned him,that he, had believe it, isn't it?
(16:11):
Is it Habakkuk
where the book where he talksabout having to divorce Israel, and, his
he talks all about his feelingsand the grief and the loss.
So, I mean, grief is healthy and necessary
and it for not just, deaths,but for any loss.
But so we're not saying it's bad.
In fact,the more aware you are of the process
(16:34):
and how it worksand what you're feeling, the easier
it will beand the more awareness you have.
And the tearsare our tears of remembrance.
I think looking at them even as thatthey're tears
of love and remembrance of and connection.
Because when you can remember herand remember these things about her,
(16:55):
that is part of what is healing
in the grief journey, is knowingthat you won't forget her.
Exactly. Yeah.
She still lives onand and say to people to normal,
you know, grief is just a normal reactionto any loss.
Job loss, a change of a church,a change of a job.
(17:18):
you're letting something go,that was important or dear to you.
And how do you do that?
And so I do feel like it's a processand it's very normal.
And I think sometimes
when people see somebody crying,or they say something and the person cries
and we'll talk later about my experienceat the restaurant the other day.
Yeah.
Sometimes it's just tears of joy,
(17:38):
like you'reyou're happy with the thought or whatever.
But even if it's not, I just.
I, I like to remind people to not see itas the person's not doing well, that
they're not dealing with it or they're,you they've they're regressing.
It's just a normal part.
It's and it's a normal part.
And when I read two words, Jesus wept.
(18:00):
Yeah.
The words is thought to be normal.
We were made in his image. Yeah.
And so you're talking a little bitabout Umbrella Ministries
when you come around moms,which is the group that we mentioned
at the beginning that it is, where you goand support moms who have lost a child.
Now, did Umbrella Ministries come aroundyou and support you?
(18:20):
Is thator did you learn about it afterwards?
Well, I didn't even know it existed.
And what happened is the churchI was at yesterday that had their 50 year
reunion, where we hadraised our kids in the beginning.
One of the women had kind of followed
my story on, on Facebookor just the situation with Megan's cancer,
and she connected me with the pastor’swife at that time.
(18:43):
We were already gone from the churchwhen this pastor and his wife came,
but she they had lost a child
and she was the one that ledthis Orange County group of moms.
And so this mutual friend connected us
literally the day afterI got home from Tucson. Wow.
They invited me to attend a WestCoast conference.
(19:05):
We have an annual conference on the WestCoast, one in Colorado, one back east.
And I said yes.
With a lot of hesitation, I drove myself,I thought, if I want to get out of there.
I got an escape plan already in my head.
But that was the start of my journeywith them.
For me.
(19:25):
I did go back to Grief.
Share, about six months later,but because Grief
Shares weeklythat that's a positive thing.
I think in the beginning,
when your emotions are so rawand you need somewhere to talk about it
and you need support aroundyou and surrounding you,
I think that's a really helpfuldifference.
We meet monthly.
(19:46):
I had not even been to
one of their monthly meetingsyet, and I went to this conference
and the mom, who both sang and shared,had also lost a daughter in an accident.
And I just felt likeI know I absorbed what I could,
and it probably was only minusculecompared to what was presented,
but that's all it could take in.
(20:06):
But that was the start of my connectionwith umbrella Ministries here
on the West Coast, and joining that groupthat the pastor's wife led.
And eventually,when they retired and moved
to South Carolina,I was asked to take on that group.
And I just feel like it's an honorand a privilege
because it's a way I can give back.
(20:27):
Those moms support in me.
They walked with me and I don't thinkanyone can do grief alone. No.
It's I think it's not healthyand it's possible.
I think, we'rewe're meant to be in community
and we're meant to, share the burdens.
I mean, it makes it lighter.
It doesn't take it away, you know,but it makes it lighter.
(20:50):
Yeah, totally.
And I totally agree with that.
So, okay, now we're going to get into thethe nitty gritty here.
What weresome of the things that people said to you
or that, you know, that people can say
when somebody is not just grievingthe loss of a child, but any loss, right.
We want to talk about any of these.
(21:11):
Well, your your experiences with grievingmostly with I mean, obviously you lost
lots of people in your life, but,including your mom, but,
what are some of the thingsthat help you with grief?
Okay.
I, I hate to do this,
but I'm actually going to startwith the negative stuff that I'm.
You canthat's another one of our questions.
I don't know, that's the next question.
(21:32):
And I you know, my my gut feelingwas to start with the negative, but,
I know and I sure I even wrote that down,you know, I,
I hate to do this,but I'm going to start with the negative.
And the only reason is,you know, we're in so much pain.
And again, this doesn't applyjust to someone who's lost a child.
But obviously the specificwhat I'm going to talk about
are some of those things that were saidwhen I lost me.
(21:54):
And, and one of the hardest ones
that hurts so much is when people ask,Will you have other children?
Don't you?
And you kind of feel like,
yeah, I, I do, but like,could we trade in like, let's
send yours off and let me get mine backbecause apparently it won't bother you.
Yeah. No,that's not what the person means.
(22:17):
And in everything that I'm going to sayright now, please know we we get
as we start to heal that people meanwell, yes,
their words are, are well-intended.
And I probably saidsome of this stuff myself and had no idea
that you were saying that personthat's grieving their loss
(22:38):
and how how maybe it didn't
help them andand it actually created more depression?
Well, I think people actually say itout of awkwardness
and not knowing what to say,and they start to grasp at straws.
So I don't think they're being mean.
I think they just don't know what to say,especially as the grief goes on later.
It's kind of like, well,I know what to say.
(23:00):
I'm sorry for your loss.
Things like that, when it's really like,you know, close
and it just happenedor it's the memorial service or what.
But like years down the line,it's like, well, what do you say?
it feels really awkward.
And I think the thing that you said,and I'll say it again probably soon, is
(23:20):
just to be able to say I'm sorrybecause nobody can change it.
And so, some of the,some of the hard things and I know we've
talked about the don't letter, a letterthat was written and we're not still sure
who wrote the letter, but it's about whatnot to say following up with what to say.
And so some of those things were,
we have other children or,do you have other children?
(23:41):
We have moms like, they've lostboth their children who had an only child,
and now they have none.
And so that first
Mother's Day, comes aroundand they don't know what to say to people.
They're asking themself, am I still a mom?
Am I a mom anymore?
And so, it triggers those emotions again.
I think some of the hard things
(24:02):
and this is me saying iteven as a believer, some of the hard stuff
was people eitherquoting verses or saying, well,
at least you know where she is,or at least you know you'll see her again.
Or at least she's not in pain anymore.
Well, I'm the first to want my daughternot to be any pain anymore.
I watched you lose 100 pounds and,the year went by
(24:22):
and the year was just increasedpain on a daily basis.
And of course, I didn'twant that for my daughter.
And of course, I'm relievedshe's not in pain.
But some of the comments,I do know I'm going to see her again.
So now, 12 years later,it's easy for me to just be grateful
about that andand even be able to celebrate that part.
(24:43):
There's a dayand a time I'm going to get to see her.
It's it's true.
But initially those wordsactually hurts, okay.
Because we want them here.
Now again, we want to say can we canI trade out my daughter
and I'd like to have her backto see a wedding and children
and all the things that, you know,to finally graduate from college.
So as her friend started graduating,you know, those were triggers.
(25:08):
And as her friends started to get marriedand have children, I was happy for them.
And I to this day, I'm happy for them.
And their kids now are, 12 years oldand they have their degrees.
But there was a sadnessthat that didn't happen for Megan,
and those were goalsshe wanted in her life.
Yeah, those are hard to hear at first.
(25:29):
And to say something like, we'll just,
maybe focus on other things in your lifeand move forward.
How is that how does thathow is that received?
Well, we're lucky.
You're lucky we stand there still.
And don't just walk away.
Honestly, that's.Why did that hurt so much?
It hurts because two things.
(25:50):
We will never move on.
There's no such thing.
They're always a part of us.
Like I carried my childconnected with an umbilical cord.
My whole nine months,we were tied together like right
in every way for her to eator breathe or whatever.
So that part, moving on is, is a phraseI try not to use.
(26:12):
What we tend to say that I think to me,works better to talk about moving forward.
I don't go from hereand not stay stuck in my grief.
That does feel overwhelming initiallyand like it's
never going to let up and the intensityis never going to go away.
How do I get from that place?
Or the, not accepting it
(26:34):
and wanting it to be different than it is?
That can help us stay stuck tohow do I go from there to moving forward,
to finding that I wake upand I still have breath so it means
I'm still supposed to be here,and there's something meant for me to do.
And being able
then to start to pursue those things,not forgetting our child because we won't.
(26:56):
Right.
Maybe not being able to avoid the triggersthat come when you least expect it.
We all know the tears comewhen that's the least Convenient time.
If there is a convenient time.
And so it'show do we, we talk about a new normal.
That because it'll never be the same.
I now have one less child here on Earth
and one less of many celebrations.
(27:18):
I had planned on.
So we talk instead abouthow do I move forward.
I love embracing the grace, the grief.
I'm sorry.
Embracing the grief as we are movinginto acceptance.
Right.
And and the acceptanceis the end of the grief process
or the or the placethat you're working through the grief
(27:40):
so you can get to that acceptance.Can you think of any more,
any more,
about those that are hurtful, know
things that are hurtful,that people say hurtful
and let the main thingsI think were, us not wanting,
I think it's it's us not wanting themto forget, like our child's now passed
up and gone and they're out of our mindbecause they won't be.
(28:04):
And so I think really that leads meto, to the things that are helpful to say,
okay.
And, one of one of the best comments,I think, that was made to me, my son in
law's brother pastored a messianic churchand, studied in Israel.
And, he said to methat, in Western culture,
we don't really understand how to grieve,which impedes, or impairs our healing.
(28:28):
That number one.
But Jewish traditiondid know how their sackcloth and ashes.
They had whalers that wailed.
I mean, they they wailed, for
you didn't have to be your own wailing,which is perfectly fine if you know.
Right.
But they actually had peoplethat wailed. Yes!
Isn't that crazy?
(28:49):
That's so hardto imagine in Western culture. But.
But it's hard to imaginebecause we live in a fast
food society where we drive through,and I'm the first to do it.
That'swhy I go to Starbucks instead of Peet's,
because Starbucks is drive thruand I'm impatient, But everything we do
here is quick, neat, tidy and move on.
And so it doesn't allow a placeor a space for grieving.
(29:14):
And without that, how do we get to healingor how do we work through
grieving towards healing and healing?
To this day, 12 years later, Scott's words
still resonate with me and the realitybe that wow.
Because if we dotry and stop the grieving,
which stops the healing, we stay stuck.
(29:34):
Yeah we do.
And so some of the thingsI think some of the really helpful things
that people said, I'm going to be honest,is I'm sorry
and I have no words.
I don't say I have no words.
That's the truth.
And we can sit well with that.
We don't have words or answers either.
We want them, but nothing's immediate,that's for sure.
(29:57):
And so it's almost like itputs a stamp of approval for us.
It's okay to be where you are.
It's not discounting, it's validating.
So all of the things I was thinkingas you were saying them and then we have
we have the don't letterthat we're going to the don't letter.
We're like what not to do and what to do.
I'm going to put a link to itbelow the podcast notes
(30:18):
or the YouTube video notes,so you can link to it
and download it for yourselffor those that are listening.
But when I look back over those,it's like the things
that are hurtful or harmful,they're discounting.
They're discountingand minimizing of your pain.
And the things that arehelpful are validating.
So yeah, I have no words.
I don't know what to say.
(30:39):
That's saying to you why that was huge.
That's a huge loss.
That's a big deal.
And that feels like people understand.
Yes, exactly.
But I think that I think that's whythat, that actually,
the moms that say, I can't even imagineit's true.
I couldn’t eitherand I certainly could imagine
I could ever get through somethinglike this, and again, not move on,
(31:03):
but move forward, be able to,to celebrate life, to be able to enjoy
the good things that are still around meand the good things
that still happen for meand for other people.
Remembering the date of your child'slike birthday or the date of your loss.
And that is, I was convicted reading thatbecause there's somebody close to me
that I've not been good about, that
because I'm not good on anniversariesand birthdays and I'm really busy.
(31:27):
But I need to do a better job,
and I'm actuallygoing to apologize to her.
And I haven't decided if I'm going tocall her or send her a card, or probably
send her a card.
She's really big on sending cards,and I'm just going to tell her, I'm
so very sorryfor not remembering the birthday
and the the anniversary of his death,
(31:48):
because I love her and I know her.
And that's more important than rememberingand remembering the birthdays of people
that are alive.
If I can't do that, then I but that's
I don't wantI don't want that to be hurtful to her.
And so I'm actually going to I'mactually going to do that
after reading this letterand thinking about this topic.
(32:10):
So I don't know, thatI hope will make up a little bit
for me being so lax with that. And
it's, anything else I can tell you?
She'll appreciate your apology.She really will.
Because the first year peopleremember the year, all the significant
anniversaries, the birthday,the passing, holidays, all of that.
(32:31):
People remember that first year.
It's fresh for them as well. In year two.
I hate to say this,but we say that's a harder year.
And it's because for everyone else,their life does go on
and that's not wrong.
And we're not mad about it, but ourswe are just coming out of being numb.
(32:51):
Yeah.
And now it's very realand it becomes even more
real as we feel like we're the only onesthat remember those things.
My sister in law to this day still sendsa card for that, and I'm so grateful.
And my daughter calls.
But those are still daysthat we are never going to forget.
And we're reminded on not even the day up, but leading up to it.
(33:14):
So many of my moms in my groupwill say the same thing
that they're really struggling,and then they look back
and they realize itwasn't just the day of.
It's the weeks coming up to it.
And other peopleare understanding those emotions.
I hate to, liken it to say, when
when you have your period,how you are beforehand.
Our emotions are youthey just feel out of control
(33:38):
and then you're like,oh, this makes sense.
now I know that to the people in my lifethat that have grieved like, losses
and that it is as, oh, it's coming up
to that anniversary,it's like and and and I'll just be honest,
like my daughter lost a boyfriendto suicide way back when she was 18.
(34:00):
And for 15 years she still celebrated
that death and I mean, not celebrated.
She was strugglingwith the anniversary of that death.
And there were times that I would wantto say to her, just get over it.
Like move on.
And, especially becauseit was, a boyfriend when she was younger.
But but that was a big deal to her.
(34:22):
And it's very painful.
And that was me not understandingand not me
not being at times super empathetic,quite honestly, because I wanted her
as a mom just to be like, okay,it's like you're living like be okay.
That doesn't help.
Yeah, that doesn't help at all.
So, or just say, count your blessings.
(34:43):
Look at all the you still havetwo beautiful children, and you're having,
like, look at everything around youand how God blessed you.
It isn't that we've forgotten thosebecause I haven't.
But right now,this other thing is really overwhelming.
And, we're just trying to
put pieces back together as somethingthat sort of imploded in our life.
The big go ahead. No.
(35:04):
And I think the simple thing to sayto people, if you can't remember
the specifics, is just to saythe things that are validating, like,
I'm sorry, there are no words like,just give them a hug.
The other thing that, you mentioned,and I've also heard that really struck
me, is ask the person about their childand use the child's name.
(35:27):
Yes, but tell me about Meganand now I'm going to let you tell me
just because wewe jumped into it, I want to
I want you to tellthe story of what happened.
And then just in your notes, back
to the Ministry of Presence toI want to make sure to talk about that.
So just short story, but I was at Ihopthe other day and I was just really going
(35:50):
over the questionsthat you had asked me, to focus on.
And when I finished writing,I kind of finished up the final question.
It was like, what's somethingyou would want people to know?
What would I want to say?
And I wrote it down was two sentencesI wrote down,
and then I put all my thingsback in my bag to leave.
(36:12):
And there was a woman, two womenthat sat down at the table behind me.
And so when I went to put my thingsin my bag,
I noticed this woman's hair,her beautiful, really,
really shorthair looked a lot like Jamie Lee Curtis.
when she has that super shortcropped hair.
And that's how my daughter's hair lookedwhen it started to grow back in,
(36:34):
she had had her head shaved,so she was bald
as she started to lose so much hairand how discouraging that was for her.
And so when it was shaved, itgrew back in,
and it grew back in like a auburn color.
I saw this woman's hair and literallyit was like seeing Megan's head.
And I justI had tears, but I started to talk to her
(36:57):
and compliment her on her hairand just say how beautiful it was.
And she said, well,most people ask if I had cancer.
And she said, I didn't.
I just did this and it's total freedom.
And I said, well, I love it
because it looks just like my daughterwho did have cancer.
It looks just like her hair.
And so, she she said, I'm sorry,about losing my daughter.
(37:18):
But then she said,what's your daughter's name?
And tell me about your daughter.
And so I said, just a minute.
And I grabbed my, notepad out of my bag,and I said, just read these two sentences.
And it was the answerto what you had asked me
about, is there some final thingI would want to say to people?
(37:39):
Those two sentences
I wrote and I capitalized themso they were big and bold.
And I said,
please ask us about our child.
Please ask us to tell you about our childand please say their name.
And I start crying because it was actuallysweet tears that somebody did that.
I didn't have to ask them,and they didn't ask any of the
(38:02):
hard questions or make the hard comments.
I was so grateful.
And so after we talked a little bit,she said, but I really want to hear
more about Megan.
Like she remembered her name
and then continued the conversationand it meant the world to me.
A total stranger. She doesn't know me.
She doesn't know my story.
She doesn't knowall I've just said to you.
(38:24):
Yeah, I just really, really like
it was a picture of exactly what you had
just written, that you wantedpeople really to grasp.
And don't let me.
And this thought just came tomy mind, does it is it helpful
or hurtful to ask, what did she die of?
Is that not a good thing?
Does that bring up the negative?
(38:45):
And she did.
She asked after she wantedto hear about Megan and then she asked it.
It is okay. It is okay.
I think it
almost deserves a follow up againif I'm sorry
or something, because otherwiseyou both stand there and it's awkward.
Yeah.
But no, I think it'sokay to say definitely.
(39:06):
And I think sometimes then peopleby knowing it is less awkward that way.
So. Yes.
And so that's so that's okay.
Just because I'm always kind of afraid,I feel like, oh,
is that too personalor am I bringing up too much negative?
And, but you're saying that
at least for you and for other moms, it'sokay to ask what happened?
(39:27):
It is okay for me. I'm.
I'm not uncomfortable by it. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah.
And, so I think we've got I think we'vegone through a lot of the, the questions.
Is there something elsethat you can think of?
I'm going to put up the don't letter.
I'm definitely going to, let'ssee if there's any,
just some of the other things that helpit says cry with us if you want to.
(39:49):
I know address told me how therapy,how healing it was for a therapist
even that they that listen to themto actually get tears in their eyes
when they were sharing that pain to,to literally,
again,this is letting you know that people feel
actually what you're feeling
(40:11):
or at least can understandand they're validating.
So I think really a lot of itis just validating and then remembering
that your daughter was ashe was a person, she really was someone.
And it gives you a chance to,like you said,
remember her and to almost think of her.
And it's happy tears, the tearsof remembering, everything about her.
(40:35):
Like we want to share our childwith someone.
We want them to know our childas much as the ones that are living.
And that allows us to do it.
Yeah, I know you read from the letter and,
it'll say both thingsnot to say and things to say.
You post that.
But one of the thingsthat isn't mentioned a lot,
(40:56):
but I think it's be is be getting to be
is this idea of a ministry of presence.
And what I found is sometimes,there's not always words to say.
And sometimes all we neededwas the hug or them just sitting with us.
And so after Megan's service herein California, two friends came back to
(41:16):
the house with me to bring, some flowersand some things that I had put out.
There were, memories of Megan's,
and they didn't have any magic wordsbecause there aren't any.
Nothing's going to change his tuition.
I was so overwhelmed because this isthe home that my kids were raised.
This is where Megan, she was born here.
(41:37):
And the thought that I came hometo a house that she never
come back to it.
No one ever come visit this house again.
I really struggled with that.
And, so one of the friendsjust sat with me.
The other one,it was kind of like Mary and Martha,
and one just went about organizingand unloading the car
(41:57):
and bringing things inand doing that part of it.
And the other, one is sat with me.
And that's what I need.
And, I refer to itas a ministry of presence.
We met this month at a restaurant,my group at something we do once a year
and talk about the conferencethat we had just gone to.
And one of the moms just neededsomebody to listen, just needed time.
(42:20):
And it's been,I think, three years now for her.
And I didn't think of it as she slippedback or she's not doing well today.
Her son's birthday
was going to be at about four days,so she was anticipating that.
And sometimes we just needsomebody to listen, and sometimes
we just need somebody to sit with usbecause that's a way to affirm, yeah,
(42:41):
the fact that there's tears or that we,are just grieving, but we're sad, right?
Then it's okay.
You like their approval,with their arm around
you or them just sitting with you andand if you're the kind of person
that maybe wants to ask permission, that'sokay too.
So, you know, sometimes I've had peoplesay, can I hug you?
I'm a absolutely.
(43:02):
Yes, you can hug me, person,but that allows somebody
who maybe isn't comfortablewith that, to say, that's okay.
And then you know thatmaybe they don't need that right now
or they're going to get a hugfrom somebody else later.
But I'm a person that's good with that.
And so maybe asking permission or, evensaying, can I ask you about your child?
(43:23):
And if they're not in a place to talkabout it, it gives them permission to say,
well, maybe another time.
Okay, perfect, I love it, I like that.
And then also again, thinking back towhen someone cries.
Yeah, in Western culture, we're no,we're not comfortable with grief.
And when someone breaks downour first instinct, if we're not,
accustomed to thator haven't really thought it through is
(43:44):
I gotta, I gotta make this person feelbetter to get this person to stop.
And that isn't the best thingfor that person.
The best thing for that personis to be able to let it out
and to be, like you said, validatedor just supported.
And sometimes that support is sayingnothing like Job's friends.
I think in the end, Job's friendswith Job's friends didn't
(44:07):
they sit with him for a weekand just said nothing?
Yeah.
And then after that,they opened their mouth
and they started sayingreally stupid things. Yes,
that's that's a perfect
example of a of a book, you know, ofhow to do it and how not to do it.
Exactly. Right.
They had it right for a weekand then they couldn't handle it anymore.
(44:28):
All the things that were running through
their head started just coming outand causing problems for them.
And again,maybe it is because they now get up
and they move on with their life,but we're still trying to figure out
what is the new normal.
Where do I go from here?What do I do with the memories?
What do we do with our clothes?
(44:49):
What do I do with their things?
You know what I mean? We're not.
We're just at the startof the grieving process
and then understanding, like you said,that you said the first year
we're just coming out of,like, the shock, and the denial and
and that sounds crazy,but the shock denial is actually
a it's like a help for emotionallyand physically.
(45:13):
God created us in that.
We go through thatbecause the denial is like
a shock absorber,to where you don't feel it as intensely.
Because if you feltit too intensely at first,
it would be so overwhelmingyou couldn't deal with it.
So it's actually that little cushion,
and it takes a while to slowly kind ofcome out of that and get to where.
(45:36):
But when you're in that, in that shockdenial, one of the
one of the actual physiologicalthings that happens as a result of
that is your brain does not work well.
It's part of being in that fight,flight is what it really is.
You'reshut down to your rational thinking.
You're shut down to problems solving.
And so you have a really difficult timewith functioning,
(45:58):
like putting on your shoes,figuring out what to wear,
figuring outhow to like what to take care of.
So I have people that are in your life.
What's really helpful is to say,what do you need me to do?
Like anything, just tell me.
I don't care if it's like cleaning outa closet, or if it's answering letters,
(46:21):
or if it's making phone calls,or if it's cooking a meal or whatever
it is, or cleaning up your house,driving you to an appointment.
What do you need me to do?
Yeah, that's probably honest on that one.
A lot of times people will say,let me know if you need anything.
I'll tell you the grieving person'snot going to call you and say one thing.
It's not it
(46:41):
if they even know what they need.
Okay.
And so sometimes it's that, you seethe clothes are hanging on
the clothesline.You go take them down for them, okay?
You see that?
They dump the load of laundry on the couchand it needs to be folded,
and you just start foldingwhile you're talking or whatever.
But we're probably not going to pickthe phone up and say, this is what I need.
Makes it hard for for people to know.
(47:03):
I get that,and nobody's a mind reader, but,
one of the things I had written downwas to talk about brain fog and, it's
and they talk aboutwith cancer, too, cancer fog.
And if you've ever seen in James Pollackpicture, artwork that he's done
and it looks like he's flung painteverywhere on the canvas, I just flung it.
(47:24):
And it's like a mass of just colordripping everywhere.
Okay, it's like that.
Or a ball of yarn or a bowl of spaghetti.
It just wound in all different directions.
And so that that brain fog to realityfor the person
that's grieving the, and to just saywe're not in our right mind.
(47:45):
No we're not we can't think clearly.
We can't sort things out.
We're we're trying to just get our feetout of bed
and put shoes on and,walk out of the bedroom.
And so it's very real.
And I just
I want to encourage people to give grace,give a lot of grace to the person,
(48:05):
if they don't call youor if they don't call
and say what they needor they start to isolate,
you pick up the phonelike you, don't expect a lot.
Maybe it's what I'm saying,and just give a lot of grace as they're
trying to figure out how to go forward,how to start living and breathing
the next day, withoutand not just child, but any loved one.
(48:26):
You know, this applies to anyone.Grieving.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I remember, I think it was Joan Didion.
I can't even think of the nameof the book now.
She wrote a really powerful bookabout the loss of her husband
and she said things like, I,
I stood in front of the closetfor like an hour
trying to figure out, what to wearand that was never a hard decision for me.
(48:50):
And it was justfunctioning is very difficult.
So any other things that you wrote downthat were that you wanted to mention?
Yeah.
One thing I do want to mention,
and you you had her onrecently was Christine Lister,
because she and I havesome very similar, things about grief.
And one of them,yes I just want to mention, sometimes
the people that are closest to you, familyor friends are the people you think
(49:14):
will help you through it.
And the reality is that sometimesthat's not the case.
And so her word for it is process people.
So she actually gave me the,the language, the verbiage for
what those people were in my life.
And there were manyand some came out of Tucson
and Megan's church familythat came alongside me.
(49:37):
Some were people here, all these momsI didn't know who had lost a child,
so they certainly understood the pathI was on.
But those people are invaluableand they might not be many, and they might
not be the people you eitherexpect or hope will be there for you.
But I really believeGod brought the right people for me.
(49:58):
And of course, one groupwas Umbrella Ministries.
But, and I was lucky to have a best friendwho was by my side through it all.
I'm so grateful. But
don't be
surprised if it is other peoplethan who you expect.
And again, then there has to be gracefor the ones that aren't there for you.
(50:18):
Whatever their reason is.
For whatever reason, they can't.
I do believe, like, keep your eyes openfor the people that I believe God
puts in our path to be those people for usbecause they're there
and they know best how we feel.
And and if they're not there, do
(50:39):
reach out to a grouplike Umbrella Ministries.
So we're going to put the linksto all of that in the podcast notes like
or to Grief Share so that you can findthis like any other like problem.
You know, deal with finding peoplewho have gone through it
are the best people to walkyou through it.
Exactly.
And that's why we have supportgroups that are specific too.
(51:01):
So the question next questionI have is Umbrella Ministries.
Whether you've lost a childto sickness, to an accident,
to suicide, to a murder,do you come beside all those moms?
We do, we do.
And and I'm going to add in therethat sometimes,
the best thing is to find a therapistthat also deals with grief.
(51:25):
That's a really important piecesometimes medication, I understand that.
So there's, there's different toolsthat we want
people to utilize in Umbrella Ministries.
We do.
We have momsfrom all different situations.
Sometimes they attend our groupand grief share.
Sometimes isn't our group.
And there's a group called Solace for HopeI know that deals with
(51:47):
when it's drug overdoses.
So there are some specifics and though I'm
not on Facebook anymore,Umbrella Ministries has a Facebook page.
Yeah. And a website as well.
You'll be able to get all the informationfor areas, groups and conferences.
There.
The there's With Hope is a groupI know that walks
(52:08):
beside peoplewho have lost, a family member to suicide.
And then there is like, Mothers AgainstDrunk Driving MADD.
They come beside you when you've losta, family member.
Not just a child, but a family memberto a drunk driving accident.
So, I mean, there are specific groups,but I've.
I have referred multiple people to youwhen when I find somebody
(52:32):
come across somebody who's lost a child.
I always give them your numberbecause I just think the power
of having somebody personal to walklike you will call that person
and be willing to meet with that person,and you understand, and you'll
you'll talk to them on the phoneif they're struggling at a certain point.
And then you have your group meetings.
(52:53):
And, that's just afterI spent a lot of years and 12 step.
And that's invaluable,not just to have the meetings
people will understand,but actually somebody you can call
when you're struggling,that's somebody who will, sit there
and listen to you, or come meet with youand, and actually, like, listen to you.
So what would you, give me some thoughts,final thoughts to those listening
(53:15):
on how to supportsomebody who's lost a loved one.
Just I guess you can remind us.
I think we said what?
Ask to ask their name and ask usabout our child or our family member.
Right.
And probably we've said just to validateand just be there.
And what about those,who have actually lost a loved one?
(53:41):
What would you say to that person?
To that person?
I would say that there's hopeand there's healing
and I and also
process it with it's hardwork, really hard work.
And getting to a place of healingis hard work.
It doesn't come natural.
So we need those process people.
We need those groups.
(54:01):
We need whatever tools, and there's lots
of different ones and different thingswork for different people.
But I think we have to be intentionaland that's a challenge.
When your brain fog, it'shard to be intentional about it.
And I think you have to give yourselfgrace
during that time, too, and just say, look,this is the best I can do right now.
And there's a reason, understanding thatwith all of these things
(54:24):
that go along with grief,there's an emotional and a physiological
and maybe even a spiritual reason
that you're experiencing thatand that it's normal.
And if you don't know if it's normal,then you go to a therapist
or somebody who will help you figure out,is that normal?
Like,is there something to be worried about?
Or is this just part of the grief process?
(54:44):
Because I think understanding the griefprocess, what I feel like
any part of grief at all, I,I tell myself, oh,
you're feeling angry because you're,you're grieving that loss, like, like or
this is the
this is the pain
that's going on inside you right nowis you're actually grieving this.
And it feels really, good to understandwhy I'm feeling the way I am.
(55:06):
And it's great to knowthat it won't last forever, that it does
get to the point where you work through itand you reach acceptance.
And, I recently heard somebody say,after acceptance, with grief comes hope.
And I love that because after you doaccept it, it doesn't mean you're stuck.
It's kind of like, well, what's next?
And that's the hope.
The hope of whatever that is, the hope
(55:29):
that you'll be so, able to move forwardor you'll be able to minister
to others or, whatever that isthe hope is what's really beautiful.
So finding joy in life again,because it's,
being able to see the blessingsbecause they're there,
and maybe that's not what we need to hearin the beginning.
Again, of count your blessings.
(55:50):
You've got all these good things.
that's not wherewe're at in the beginning.
Right?
But the hope is that with the healing,
we come to that place,that we can see those things because.
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
I love that to to to know that you'regoing to be able to feel joy again.
Yeah. And that you'll be okay.
(56:12):
and I and I really like that.
So I think that's a great place to stop.
Thank you Jan thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I truly hope this is helpful for people,in any kind of grief.
But in particular, I,I reach out to the moms
who have lost a childand want to support them. Yes.
And I'm going to put,
all of the links to the organizationswe talked about the don't letter.
(56:36):
And also,you are associated with the Orange County,
California, USA group.
And so if they contact that group, which,I think I can put a link to that too.
Yes. And then definitely to the website.
And then that way, they can have groups,other groups, other leaders numbers.
(56:57):
And then for you,
I'm not going to put your personal contactbecause you're going to get spam stuff.
Oh okay.
So I'll just put the, the,Umbrella Ministries
link, which is Umbrella ministries.org
and you are listed on there as runningthe Orange County, California group.
There's other groups.
So please look for something in your area.
(57:20):
And then the Facebook is under UmbrellaMinistries Grief Support.
And you can find the grief supportFacebook group there
which is really helpful.
And then of course
that don't letter that we refer to, whichis actually very beautifully written.
So it really is.
And it's followed by what to say.
So yeah. What to say. So okay.
(57:42):
Well thank you for listeningto this podcast or video on
or watching this videoon Change My Relationship.
Please.
If there's somebody that you know thatyou think that would this would help
and maybe even somebody that you feel likeneeds to know how to better support
you, or maybe is frustratedthat you got upset about certain things.
(58:03):
If that's a if you feel likethat's a good idea, go ahead.
I've had people do that, like,here's here's why I've been so frustrated.
And it's kind of been validating and, andhelpful to the person, send it to them.
So, thank you for being here.
And Iwe look forward to having you next time.
God bless you.
(58:23):
Thank you.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
(58:46):
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
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