March 3, 2025 • 58 mins
John and Ann describe their marriage journey before and after he was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. Bipolar disorder is also referred to as manic-depressive disorder because it is characterized by extreme shifts in mood with highs and lows that impact a person's ability to function normally. An estimated 2.8 percent of the population has bipolar disorder. John describes his first psychotic episode with hallucinations and delusions. They share how the mental illness impacted their marriage and family. Their story shines light on the impact of mental illness on marriages and why they are twenty to eighty percent more likely to divorce. #bipolarinmarriage #healthyrelationships #difficultmarriage
Mental Health Strong https://mentalhealthstrong.com/ National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) https://www.nami.org Re|engage study for strengthening marriages. https://www.reengage.org/ "10 Lifesaving Principles for Women in Difficult Marriages" by Karla Downing https://a.co/d/eSSsUlQ Karla Downing's classes https://www.changemyrelationship.com/current-and-upcoming-classes/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.
(00:29):
I'd like to welcome
you to Change My Relationship podcast.
And I'm so excited todayto have a couple with me
that I've been tryingto get on for a long time.
And I've known for a long timeand watch their journey.
And I think it's really goingto bless you.
It's going to give you some insightinto what it is like to have a medical
(00:50):
or a mental illness diagnosisin a marriage that you need to deal with
and figure out how to navigate and there's
a lot of options,there's a lot of complexities.
And I'm going to tell you
that I've been blessed to watch thiscouple navigate it with courage.
And there have been some real rough spots.
And they're going to be honest today.
(01:10):
They're going to tell you about those.
And we're going to use their real names.
And they can explain why,that is important to them.
And I think you'rereally going to enjoy it.
So I'd like to welcome John and Anne.
Hi. Hello there.
Great to have you.
We're just going to jump right inand we're going to go for it.
(01:31):
So I love your story.
How did you guys meet?
Well we were high school sweethearts.
We met in high school.
In college we dated in, high school.
Very young age. Junior. Junior 16.
You know, we we met at church,and I saw her at the summer
camp, and I thought, wow, that's somebodyI want to go out with.
(01:53):
And you chased her aroundwith some amazing story.
Follow me around her.
Yeah, right. Five days. Right.
I tried to follow her around the campso that I could ask her to the banquet
at the end of the week, and.
And, I mean, girls, that all decided
that we were not goingto have any hookups at camp,
so I was not allowed to talk to youbecause they said no hookups at camp.
(02:14):
Well, by hookups, she just meansgo to the banquet with nobody.
it's all she means.
Dinner. Yeah.
Yeah.
No, but,chased her around and saw her at church,
and I thought, that's somebodyI would really like to get to know.
And, she broke downand invited me to the girls table.
I was the only boy at the table, and thenhad a banquet on my 16th birthday, and.
Yeah. And, so we've been together longer.
(02:37):
We're both in the agerange of 15 years old.
Yeah.
So over 30 years, a long time. Wow.
That is a really long time.
You didn't break up at all after that.
That was it, like. Oh, no, we did.
We did have a break up in college.
We had two girls months.
Yeah. Break up.
it kind of matured us,from a high school relationship
to more of a serious relationship.
(02:58):
And then obviously the distance.
We dated for five and a half, six yearsand total time period.
But a ten month break up,which was very helpful to us.
It's funnythat you say ten months, Exactly.
I want said a year.
I did, and that's funnybecause I, I, I had a harder time
moving on in the breakup.
And then about the minute
I broke, broke and started to movethe direction away from her.
(03:21):
She came back at that time and said,okay, let's get back together, you know,
so we, we, ended up getting back togetherin about ten months.
Yeah.
And then we were marriedshortly after that.
Yeah, maybe a year, about a year later,within a year or something like that.
21 young.What was your early marriage like?
Well, I think we
(03:42):
experienced all the typical thingsthat you experienced in an early marriage.
In the first three years,we we struggled with in-laws.
We struggled with intimacy,intimacy issues
and, finances 21 or 22 very young.
We were young and,
they had different expectations,certainly as what marriage would be.
I was in grad school.
(04:03):
He was playing shows at night.
And so we were ships in the night.
He was working at night.
I was working in the day and yeah, I was,
I would say we had, the,the typical problems that most married
couples face in the, the,the rough three areas, Yeah.
(04:23):
But, we still see each other. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, we still enjoyed being married,and we were advancing in career choices.
Yeah.
Things of that nature and having goodsuccesses, both of us in our careers.
And so we were flourishing, in those waysfor sure.
Yeah.
We, struggled emotionally to connect.
(04:44):
Some of that was our familiesand some of that was our personalities
and the baggagethat we both brought to the table.
So we tried to do like marriage intensives
and marriage books and marriagesmall groups.
And, I mean, we joined everythingwe possibly could think of, but,
bible studies everything.
(05:05):
Everything.
we did some counseling things,counseling,
marriage counseling, pre marriagecounseling just weren't connecting, like,
understanding each other.
Well, obviously later we found out why.
But in the early stages of marriage,it was we just were not, definitely
having a relationshipthat was, communicative, I guess.
(05:27):
Communicating. Yeah.
Yeah. Don't you think? Yeah.
I'm not sure exactly what to sayabout that, about it, but,
we we had a marriage, but it was young,and it we definitely had challenge,
in areas like,just I had, feelings that I was
we were going to get married,and it was just going to be intimacy.
Every day, all the time.
(05:47):
And she had this feelingthat was completely different, and,
and there were a lot of frustrating,circumstances for me.
And then there was a lot of,an uneasy feelings
for her and, and,typical marriage problems.
Yeah, yeah.
And we just, had to work through them.
That took about six years, probably
beforewe were able to be on the same page.
(06:10):
And then we had a baby, so, you know, thatthrew a wrench in all of it.
Well, it changed everything.
Yes. Oh, no, it totally does.
You didn’t have your first babyuntil six years into the marriage.
Yeah. Yeah. We had.
So we did live, a newlywed, kind of.
Yeah. Just as couples for a while.
We dated for five and a half years,and then we had marriage for six years
(06:32):
without kids. Well, remember,we weren't going to have children.
We weren't at one pointgoing to have children. Now we have five.
We were not.
We had decided we were not.
I have six siblings. Here's five.
We decidedwe were not going to have children.
And then God laughedand gave us five right?
So yeah.
(06:52):
Funny, interesting.
Well, okay.
So whenand how did the bipolar first, occur?
And, what did you noticeand how did you guys respond to it?
We were married in 96,
and the first episode that I had was 2010,
but there were depressionand anxiety and issues that took place
(07:13):
halfway through that timeperiod, maybe 2000,
three, that went before kids.
And I was in my early career.
I remember talking to colleagues abouthow, how do you connect with your husband?
How come we can't have a conversation?
Why does he want to sleepand not talk to me?
What's wrong?
(07:33):
What are we.
What am I doing wrong? Well, hindsight.
Now I understand that was probably anxietyand major depressive disorder
manifesting in our relationship anxietiesand trying to figure that out.
And so that doesn't.
Now I understand,but at the time it was a struggle.
So looking back, I see dayswhere he would be on the couch sleeping.
(07:59):
And I'm at work because he was a musicianat night and I was a pscyh in the day,
and then he would justgo to work, but there was no
I just assumedit was something I was doing wrong.
And then later we learned it was one ofthe symptoms that he, struggles with.
Yeah.
(08:20):
Yeah.
So that was, before kids and then.
Sorry. Go ahead.
Yeah.
I was just thinking there's,there was a time period where, she was
starting to wanted to have kids,and then that changed our roles.
And I had to, change career choices.
And, that brought in some depressionfor me, because as a man,
(08:44):
you kind of identify with what you dofor a living as who you are.
And so when I changed careers,I tried to find something
that was self-employed that would allow meto continue with performing.
But at the same time, it it really did
a number on meat that time, depression wise,
because I just didn't feel,like I have any choice in the matter.
(09:07):
Yeah.
You know, well, a little bit back storywith that.
After our oldest was born,I went back to work right away.
I think like nine,nine weeks old or something.
And he was a stay at home dad,so stay at home dad took care of her.
I went to work.
And then our second one,he was born with a rare genetic illness.
And, he was in the hospital a lot.
(09:30):
And this is another one of the symptomsthat we discovered later for him
is that he does not likemy husband, does not like hospitals.
He does not always believewhat the doctors are saying.
And so when my son was diagnosed,he did not think it was a real diagnosis.
So when he got sick, I took care of him.
(09:50):
But then I couldn't workbecause I was taking care of him.
And then my work said,you cannot keep taking days off.
And they forced me to take,family medical leave.
And then after 12 weeks they said,so we'll see you on Monday.
And he was in the hospital,so I said, I can't do that.
And so they gave me 12 monthsto figure it out.
(10:14):
So they said, and and then at 12 months,
randomly enough, they'll say, said,I'll see you Monday.
And he was in the hospital again.
So it just, it was a clear indicationthat I was supposed to resign.
So I had to resign from my jobto take care of him
because it was very hard.
For him to
(10:36):
to take care
of the babies now that that he was sick
and had a lot of doctor's appointments,and I couldn't just go to work, I had.
And he wasn't able to be in a daycare,so it was forced
upon me to quitand forced upon him to find a job.
And the whole thing was just stressful.
We spent many nightswondering if the baby was going to live
(10:57):
through the night here.
He had a heart monitor on,and we didn't know
if he was gonna wake up in the morning,so it was very stressful
feeding himevery two hours around the clock.
And our marriage definitely was a
it was a hard timebecause he didn't want the hospital.
He didn't like the doctors and
we didn't know he was going to live.
So this was all pre diagnosis.
(11:19):
Episode pre - episode I just want tomention yeah that's a good point.
You know this was all just we
didn't know thatthere was an underlying issue with me.
Mental health wise.
That's a good point.
know so there was a lot of challengesthat we were facing.
Yeah.
But, nothing really presented itself untilmaybe 6 to 10 years after this point.
(11:41):
that's a good point,because then I, I was upset at him.
Yes. Like, why aren't you helping me?
Our child is sick, right?
Why are you mad that he's in the hospital?
Why are you mad that I have to quit?
Like there were so many questionsin my brain that in my heart
thought he doesn't care, right?
(12:03):
And I was kind of unengaged.
Was a key word that came uplike, as a family, just because
I was kind of tuned out to what was reallythe pulse of what was going on,
I was sleeping,I was, resting, just constantly,
pushing off the responsibility,you know, in a way, and just not acting,
as a really good partnerin the, in the relationship. But
(12:27):
not really having a reason whythat was happening.
We didn't really haveany kind of understanding as to
what was what was going onwith me, necessarily.
And then,the Lord saw fit to give us more children.
And so we I was either pregnant, nursing
in the hospital with my son, pregnant,nursing in the house.
(12:48):
Like it was just it was constant.
For almost ten years of of that.
And so between usand this was still pre episode.
Right.
I was done taking care of a sixth child
and I was done thinkinghe didn't care what I did.
(13:11):
It was definitely,reactive to what he was doing.
And he didn't even seehe was doing anything
right.
Is that you agree with that? Yeah, in a way.
I think it got really bad afterthe episode, you know, it just was before.
That's just leading up to.
Yeah, I think I think everythinggot really dark and kind of, heavy for us.
(13:36):
Yeah.
After the episode, after the diagnosis,you've got a mental illness.
We're calling it bipolar.
We're calling it, what?
We know as doctors to call it, paranoia,anxiety, depression.
We see, highs and lows, manic,you know, stuff like that.
All those thingskind of came out, in 2010.
(13:57):
Yeah.
And then it was try to fix,
get medicated, get,
fix the issue that we had discovered.
Yeah. and, that's where I feel
it became so
frustrating that we had ten yearsof marriage with frustration
(14:18):
leading into now we're in real bad shape
because because we obviouslyhave a real problem on our hands.
Right.
And that's when,I think things, you couple that
with the financial stressof trying to play shows,
trying to find a new career for himthat wasn't going well,
my not being able to workbecause I had to take care of my son.
(14:41):
And then all these babies.
It was just before it even.
It was just just in general.
It was just a very, normal in our life.
It felt like to live that was normal.
Like all of that stress was just felt likeit just was all the time.
Yeah.You guys are referring to the episode.
So just in casefor people that are listening
(15:02):
on, are not sure what you meanby a bipolar episode,
can you explain what happenedand what all that's about?
Yeah.
it's interesting.
I have kind of a photographic memoryof the encounter that I had
with this mental breakthat I think of it as, but
(15:22):
I don't have the greatest memory anymore.
But I do have a vivid memoryof what I went through, in an experience
where basically for months,during the financial crisis,
that we all experienced 25 through eight,they call it eight.
I said I was aware of thingsgetting bad in 2005, mentally,
(15:43):
by being in the industry,mortgage as well, very, very hour.
And so I kind of had my pulse on this,area that was going to explode.
And I was internally just, cyclingand mentally processing
all this informationregularly to the point where
I feel like I almost kind of talked myselfinto a mental, breakdown.
(16:05):
It was, it was roleplaying, discussing issues
with friends and the office, peoplethat I had encounters with
that were also in the industry,that led to basically
a whole bunch of stressful eventsthat happened.
I lost my contract at work.
I lost, we had neighborsthreatening to sue us over a tree.
We had a fifth pregnancythat was unexpected.
(16:28):
We had a lot of different key factorsthat may be attributed
to bringing out this, experiencethat I went through this episode.
But what happened isI became paranoid in my mind
that I was going to lose everything.
The, financially, I wasI felt like, the case to me.
You thought paranoia.
You thought I was.
(16:49):
I wasn't thinking rationally.
I was, basically thinking that the FBIwas going to come after the mortgage.
Individuals or sue us or,
I was thinking that, there were seriousconsequences coming our way,
and I was I had just built up in my mind,all these pressures
and unrealistic things that were coming,my way or potentially coming my way.
(17:14):
And I wasn't even doing anything wrong,it was just all mental.
creation, self-fulfilling prophecy.
You think something bad's going to happen,so you obsess about something
bad happening,so something does happen that goes bad.
And so you felt likepeople were watching you?
Yeah, I would see real thingsthat were happening.
(17:35):
Yeah, I would, I would see real thingshappening, like a helicopter landing
in the back of the office buildingand think it had something to do with me.
The FBI is coming to watch me.
The, the, the, like this guilty complex.
And I honestly operated as a Christian,
a good person, ethical personfor my entire life.
(17:58):
But there was something paranoidin my mind that was telling me that
the things that I was seeing meant morethan they actually were.
There was a bigger storygoing on and everything.
And I, and I've heard something aboutmental illness is the what
what is important tothe individual becomes greatly enhanced
and more, more, so like,if I'm, I can imagine these people
(18:22):
that are out therethat shoot up a building,
that may have a mental
breakdown or something like that,because if they're big into guns
or big into violence or big into payback,or I'm going to get this person,
if they had what I experienced,that's exactly what would they
would will dois, is is blow up some place or,
because that's what they were intonow I was into the end times growing up,
(18:46):
Christian, the rapture, the rapture,revelations, all these things.
And I actually experienced a situation
where I felt likeI was living in the rapture,
and that these things around me
all were indicationsthat the rapture was occurring.
And I wasn't saved, oh, no, somehowit wasn't saved.
And so I literally believed in my mind.
(19:08):
The panic and paranoiathat I was experiencing was that I wasn't
actually a believer, a Christian,and that everybody around me,
all my Christian friends, were saved,and I was not going to heaven.
And and I was not going toI was not raptured along with them.
So this whole story in my mind just was
really intense.
(19:29):
It would be a great book,
intense that he called the pastorof the church and wanted to have
a special meeting with him to tell himwhat he knew to be true and to act.
And what did you sayyou wanted everyone to move to?
India they were building?They were building homes in India.
We wanted everyone to move.
We had to flee the country
because everything was, the LeftBehind series that you read?
(19:52):
Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins wrote thatit was not the only
it was your your movie about thator your experience about that.
It was my experience. Yeah.
So so that was basically considereda psychotic episode.
And what you're talking aboutis delusions and.
Yeah, hallucinations.
And so believing things are therethat aren't there and
(20:14):
it's the it's that comes out of aftermania usually,
which I'm sure you experiencedthe mania of the rapid thoughts
and then not being able to sleep andall of that grandiose kind of illusions.
But, a psychotic episode can be triggered,as I know, you know, now by stress.
So the fact that you had a lot of stresscould have actually brought that on.
(20:36):
And like you said,
the thinking became more and moreand it all kind of works together.
The stress causes, the increased anxiety.
And then as you're the mania goes upand all of that, but all of that,
Then itit ends up into a psychotic episode.
So yeah, that's what I experienced.
That's what we mean by episode. Yeah.
Yes and yes.
(20:57):
You I know he ended up in the hospitalright?
For a while, and this was.
Yeah.
So he was, actually originally
when he was havingthese paranoid thoughts,
I didn't recognize them as that.
I didn't I didn't know, honestly.
We had come to such apoint in our marriage that I,
I was just raisingthe kids, and he was doing his thing.
(21:20):
So it's
it's not something I recognizedright away.
After he met with the pastor,the pastor called a friend of ours
who then called meand asked if he could take,
He and a couple of our small groupguys take him out to dinner and ask him
the questions, about the paranoia,and then after their dinner,
(21:40):
he called me and he said, yeah,he needs to go to the hospital.
And I was like,what do you mean? He's fine?
Clearly I didn't.
I was I am nine months pregnant.
I hadn't delivered my fifth one yet.
And I took him to the ER,
because they told me I had to.
I had no idea that that would lead to
(22:03):
being admitted into the
hospital for weeks and all of that.
They took me to the hospitaland we all met there, and everyone
was taking me thereto get my help from the doctors.
Yeah.
And what that meant to me was
they were taking me to the doctors,quote unquote, which was the devil.
In my mind,
and that they were basically turning me innow because I hadn't been raptured
(22:26):
with everyone elseand that I had to see the devil.
And so the psychotic thought led me
to running out the hospital door, breakingthrough the back exit, Yeah, yeah.
So I spent the night running, out the doorand evading cops, sleeping in bushes,
running through the, river way or whateveryou want to call it, the the sewers,
(22:47):
you know, to make my way back home,which I'm not a very athletic person,
but made my way a 20 minute drive, to our
our house, talking to my self and,
thinking everybody could hear my voicesas I was, through my,
through my communicationsomehow, I got home
and it was doors locked.
(23:08):
My mother in lawand my wife were inside with my children.
Nobody answering the door, but everybodywas there and aware that I was back.
And I went to the backwindow of our bathroom,
and it was there that I caught eyes
with my wife through the window,and she said, I can't let you in.
We're going to call the police,and they're going to come help you.
(23:28):
And it was at that momentthat something triggered in me that said,
okay, something's not right with me.
I'm not sure what I was thinking, but
I'm going to go aheadand surrender at this point.
And so that's when I let the policetake me in the back of the
cop car to the, medical centerand diagnosed with bipolar, where they put
(23:51):
me on, admitted into the medical, psychunit ward for 7 to 10 day hold.
And I think it was there 14 days,something like that.
And, boy,did I experience something there.
That's another book.
as far as what I was seeing,because I was still experiencing
the episode, thoughtsand the names of the patients
were all people's names
that I had encountered in my life,which all meant something to me.
(24:14):
I met someone in there that said he was.
Name was Michael,and he told me he was an angel.
And, all these different crazy experiencesthat I went through, in that psych ward.
But, I was a patient for sure,
experiencingwhat they were experiencing as well.
And so I was heavily medicatedfor the next year on different doses of
(24:36):
different typesof medicines, trying to figure out what it
what I needed to be stableand what I need.
And that was a horrible experiencethat made
everything exaggerated and worse for me.
Because when you're tryingto get the medicines right,
it's a trial and errorand it doesn't happen instantly.
Some some of these medicinesdon't take effect for 30, 60 days.
(24:59):
side effects.
There's, lethargic, side effects,all these different things.
So, I was very,very fortunate to have a patient wife,
but I had doctors telling me, oh,you guys are going to get divorced.
Don't even worry about it.
Oh, you know that great psychiatry.
I think you're insane, and and Iwould leave the the psychiatrists, office
(25:21):
and call her crying and saying,I don't want to get a divorce, but,
they're charming.
We're going to get divorced, and I'm goingthrough, traumatic experience.
And I'm not really finding great helpin some, some doctors.
And I'm findinggood help with others. And,
so the
diagnosis came out of that,that it was a bipolar diagnosis.
Now my diagnosis is more paranoia focused
(25:45):
and focused on anxiety and stuff like thatthat I deal with.
I do, so I don't know.
Yeah, that's kind of how we got there.
And you obviously understood
bipolar having a psych degree, but.
I thought I did, but I didn't.
Yeah, I definitely didn't.
(26:06):
I mean, I kicked myself laterfor not seeing
the symptoms right in front of me.
So the first thing I didwhen got the diagnosis
was to take a class,because I took a 16 week course on
what is bipolar, for relativesor spouses of recently diagnosed.
That was the Nami one.
The Nami one. Yeah, through.
(26:28):
We've actually metat one of the hospital, like,
rooms, like multi-purpose rooms there.
There was a lot of familiesthere who had, children with bipolar
or maybe, a sibling,
but I was the only wife there.
Had a husband. Yes.
(26:51):
Well, and it's taken years for me
to find another wifewho has a husband with bipolar.
I think I maybe knowone in in the entire U.S..
And I am in another group.
That is for spouses of mentally ill.
(27:11):
And even then, I'm still they’remostly men talking about their wives.
It's I mean, it's true, the statistic.
Unfortunately they don't.
They just didn't stay married.
Not number one in our marriage.
I was I was working,so I had that work ethic.
I wasn't reliant 100% on his income.
(27:33):
And I would guess that most other couples,
why would you stay with someonethat you have to support
financially, physically,emotionally when you can marry
someone who would support you so I getI get the easy out.
But we were told that everywherewe went, counselors
to both of our faces, several to mewhile he was sitting there.
(27:54):
Why are you still here?
Yeah.
And they were Christian counselors,some of them.
So we had a very hard timefinding support.
As a married couple. Did it.
That is really sad, though, because,I mean, we we're going to go through
your story of the support that you foundin how you guys were able to do it.
But there are tools.
(28:16):
There are obviously not enough programs,as you found out,
but we know that there are other wives
with husbands with bipolar must be hiding
becauseI don't know if they're absolutely.
Does the statistics showthat that is the case?
(28:37):
All right.
So it has to be.
But yeah,maybe a lot of them aren't staying
married and seeking help,which is really, really sad.
So so now you came homewith the diagnosis.
All the side effectswas that when I met you,
when you.
No, no, no, no.
That was the second episode.
(28:59):
Over to that for like 3 or 4 years later.
So I like I said before
I was I was nine months pregnant,so he was in the hospital.
They let him outbecause I was going to deliver.
So he was out for just a few days,and then I ended up having a C-section.
and remember he doesn’t like hospitals,so he came and left.
(29:19):
Which was fine,but I had to have full time
care for my other kidsbecause he wasn't able to do it.
Then I go home with a newbornand four other babies.
Three of them were in diapersat the same time,
and he was still sleepingbecause he'd just gotten out of hospital.
So that was that was really hard.
(29:40):
And I just took one step at a time.
But there were several people
from the churchwho recognized that I wasn't doing well.
The care ministries reached out to meand said, we're nervous for you.
How can we help you?
And, remember,I had quit my job to take care of my son.
At this time. I was just, like, tutoring.
(30:02):
Really? That's it?
Because I had all the babies.
And now obviously, he has no job, at all.
So we had $0 and all these babies.
And so the church helpedsupport us for a little bit,
but they put me throughan interview process.
With Care Ministriesand decided that I was suicidal. Oh,
we're, you know,
(30:26):
there were moments when it would have beenmuch easier to just drive off the cliff.
Yeah.
And that is how I ended upfinally meeting you,
because the church put me in, touch
with, a ministry for, suicide prevention.
And they paid for my counseling,
(30:47):
for, a long time, like three years.
A really long time.
And as the counseling was comingto an end, because my funds were up,
was when your name came upand she said, well, I feel like
you're not going to hurt yourself anymore,but you can't.
You're not going to survive thiswithout help.
(31:08):
And so she, referred meto try one of your classes,
and then that's when Ithat was that first night
I met you, when I came in the back doorand wore a baseball cap
and hid in the back.
Were you are you comfortable
telling why you came through the back doorand wore a baseball cap or,
(31:30):
so, you've been a part of the churchfor 20 something years already.
I was in leadershipthere for the moms group,
and I was, speaker for the moms group.
I mean, I had babies,and I understood preschoolers,
and I'm a psychologist,so it only made sense. But
(31:50):
your class room was next door
to the classroomfor the moms that met at night.
My group met in the day,but I knew a lot of people
in the night classbecause we all met and taught together.
So I had to walk past
the class, and I,
(32:11):
I, I at this point,
I was in my mind falling apart.
My husband was still sleeping,we still had no job, and I
and bipolar or mental illness was ait was a bad thing.
It was not something
that would have been acceptedif I was going to be teaching other moms
(32:32):
how to be good moms, or how to bring Jesusinto their home or whatever.
And and so I, I didn't want to go at all.
But my counselor said I had to goand I just I follow the rules.
So I did, but I called you and askedif you could unlock the back door.
And I wore a hat, and I sat in the backand didn't talk to anybody.
(32:56):
For a while.
There was a few weeks that I was braveenough to walk through the front door.
And then about halfway through the classsemester or whatever, weeks wise,
I had I, of course, of course it happened.
Someone in the hall was like,hey, are you here to teach?
To teach the mom's class?
And I was like,and then she just kept talking,
(33:17):
so I didn't answer her, and she said,do you know what class meets next door?
That's forthat's for women in difficult marriage.
Who would admit that? No, no.
I was like,
I don't know who who would.
And then I was like,I'm going to go use the restroom.
(33:38):
And so I walked past your classand went to the restroom.
And then I don't remember.
I don't rememberif I stayed that night or not.
I obviously I didn't
go into the mom's classbecause that wasn't my class.
Okay.
I'm, I don't, I don't know, sometimeafter that, it is all a blur
because it was so hard, but,yeah, it was a very
(33:59):
it was a very emotional timeto admit that I needed help.
Yeah.
The women's pastor called me at home
during the weekthat he was in the hospital
the first time,because she knew I was fully pregnant.
And asked if she could comepray for me, and I said no.
I said, no,
I, I can't, I just need to be alone.
(34:21):
And the crawling in my mind,I needed to crawl
in a corner and hide from everybodybecause it was just too hard.
And I was pregnant and emotionaland obviously irrational. But,
The next week, Beth Moore came to town
and the women's pastor took me.
She picked me up.
(34:42):
She took me to the Beth Moore Conferenceand fed me and, made sure I was okay.
My kids were being taken, taken care ofso by someone else,
and then brought me home.
And I delivered on Monday
just so I could go to the BethMoore concert or Beth Moore conference.
But it's because I wanted to hideand she knew it.
And so anyway,all that to say is it was really,
(35:06):
really hard to,
say it out loudand to the people I was ministering to.
Yeah.
And and didn't you have one time lateror one time with somebody, one of your
friends, a kid's friend's parent,found out that your husband had bipolar.
And what did they say?
I don't know how it happened to spread,but it's even though
(35:27):
LA's big, it's a small town,so when you're in a church.
So, they knew, somehow people knew.
And so my kids were getting uninvitedto birthday parties.
One, I was so upset that I called the mom,and I was like, look,
you invited every single childin the class except my son.
(35:48):
Do you realize that?
Well, yeah.
And and, well, we justwe had to limit the number.
It was, it was a bunch of BS. But,she just.
Yeah, it happened a lot.
They were uninvited.
They weren't.
Some others that found out didn'tlet their kids come play at our house.
That was a huge a huge thing too,
(36:08):
as a couple, we were not invitedas much to places like we used to be.
It was just awkward everywhere, and andit felt like all eyes were looking at me.
Whether that was trueor not at the moment, it felt like it.
And it was just easierto hide in the corner.
And that was when the church stepped in
and said, something's not okay,and how can we help you?
(36:29):
And it's only because I was in leadershipand a big part of the church
that it was even recognizedthat I wasn't doing well.
I did meet with the Sunday schoolteachers at church, and I told them,
if the kids are upset or crying,
my husband is isn't doing well right now,so please call me so I can come get them.
Like that was as much as I told themso they knew something,
(36:52):
but I'm sure they found out I don't. Yeah.
And that that is really sad thattheir stigma with mental illness is there.
It's getting better.
And some churches are startingto try to recognize it
and understand it,but it is not very many.
And it's, the the stereotypes.
(37:14):
Unfortunately, I'm hoping that as peopletalk more and more and more about bipolar
and you hear it so frequently that, yeah,maybe the stigma is getting less, but
we don't know.
And that and that's why you guys saidI suggested let's, let's just
make this really comfortable for youto just not use your name.
(37:36):
So, you don't have to worry about thatand why we're not showing
the video portion of it,which is totally fine.
So now
what?
At this point in your marriage,this let's say it looks
bring it to the pointwhere you came to my class.
I remember some of the questionsyou asked me.
(37:56):
It's like,
do I how do I knowif I can not give him his medicine?
And what if he doesn't take it?
And what do I tell the kids and
how do I handle thiswhen he's in bed all day?
And what about his teeth?
And what if brushing his teethand taking a shower?
(38:20):
And do I have to remind himabout everything?
Do I have to be his momor can I let it go?
And what if it hurts him?
And what if he doesn'tdo what he needs to do?
And you have justall these kinds of questions
that you are really struggling with?
And yeah, you were strugglingwith what to say to him
and could you be honest with him?
So let's talk a little bitabout what was going on with you.
(38:44):
Yeah. So
I like I like I mentioned
I had five children and threewere in diapers in the beginning.
By the time I saw you,I had two in diapers.
But still very much,
having babies all the time around me.
And 100% of the time themneeding my full attention.
(39:08):
But also being pulled
to my husband, needing my full attention.
It was he had such a hard timejust doing the basic
not life necessities like showeringand using soap and brushing his teeth
and, eating healthyand not sleeping for days at a time.
(39:29):
And if and when we didgo out of the house,
like for church,because he grew up going to church.
So I'm supposed to be there, butthen he would spend the morning at church
and it would just drain himfor the whole rest of the day.
Sometimes the next day,in a ball in the corner.
He's just he had to have he had to, like,decompress from pretending for so long.
(39:54):
So that that was really, really hard.
Knowing
how do I, how do I
establish a boundary with somebodywho can't take care of himself?
And at what point doI not take care of him,
or is that wrong to not take care of him?
I mean, he's an adult.
(40:15):
I have babies that are literally cryingon the floor and diapers
that he's stepping overbecause he's not able to care for them.
But then, so I, I really struggled
with how to be a good wife.
And the advice I was getting from
(40:36):
the Christian perspective of churchwas, honor your husband.
Right.
And how how how could I honor him,
and serve himwhen he wouldn't take a shower?
He wouldn't get up or he wouldn't.
I don't know, there are so many wouldn't.
And again, no income coming in.
(40:58):
So going to food pantriestwice a week to feed the kids,
and, getting free books in the library
to entertain them, going to the park,wherever I could do for free
and as much out of the houseas we could do, because it was hard
for them to see him in bed,they would ask, why is daddy sleeping?
What's wrong? Is he sick again?
(41:19):
Or why doesn'tdaddy want to come to my, soccer game?
Or how come when he comes does he doesn't?
Why doesn't he watch?
Or why are we taking two carswhen we're going to the same place?
There's just so, so many things.
There was a point after the first episode,about a year later,
maybe, where he decidedhe didn't need medicine anymore.
(41:41):
He would be better without it.
He stopped taking it, didn't tell me.
And that was like December, January,
and by spring we were blowing up arguing,which he never argued.
So I knew something was wrong.
And then by, later wasI think it was in the fall.
So we're almost a year later,
(42:01):
he's had another episodeand we had to admit him again.
And, that was when I,
my two oldest were like
eight and ten, nineand 11 right around that age.
They, they knew that he wasn't home.
And where is he?
(42:21):
I told the little onesthat he was playing a show.
But the older ones,they knew that something was wrong.
So I tried to explain to themthat daddy was just sick
and he was in the hospital, and thathe really couldn't come watch the games.
You really can't be.
My sonreally wanted him to be in Boy Scouts.
Like there was a couple dad thingsyou supposed to do with him.
(42:42):
He just couldn't do it.
And he wasmy son was very upset about that.
So I explained he's sick.
He can't help it. We didn't go into
medical terms or anything like that.
We didn't talk mental illness at all.
I just explained that daddy was sickand he needed to rest.
(43:02):
And we're going to take care of him.
And could you help me take care of him?
So that at least help alleviate.
And then I found another dadin the community
that I was able to confide inthat took him.
under his wing and took care of him.
Went to went to the, BoyScout things with him.
Went to, all of the dad things at church.
(43:26):
Took him over to his house,did boy stuff with him.
I don't know when shooting or whatever.
They did wrestling boy things,and that really helped a lot.
And then I just was closer with my oldestand making sure she was okay.
She was a caretaker already,so she took on the role
of helping metake care of the little ones a lot.
(43:47):
Probably more than
any oldest would have.
But she knew that I was strugglingso she would bathe and change the babies
like it, ask if she could,and I would say you don't have to.
And she say, no, mommy,I want to help you.
And she she would watch all of thembetter than any babysitter.
(44:10):
And she was like 11 or 12,
and I could go to the grocery storeand trust that she was going to watch.
Even though he was home.
I he couldn't watch the kids.
I had to have somebody there,that was going to be watching.
So And I told you to go aheadand tell them
you did age appropriate.
(44:31):
Right. For the different ages.
Yeah, they just advanced, but didn'tyou do that?
I'm not too long after that.
We didn't,
No, I only the two oldest.
Did we tell,he was doing better after that
second episode, and
(44:52):
we came to the.
I came to the boundarythat he had to take his meds
or he couldn't stay living with us.
Yeah, and he couldn't not take themand not tell me,
like, if he didn't want to take them,then we would have a discussion.
But it was an agreement that we madethat he would take them
(45:12):
and and that we would havewe would find a counselor
and that we wouldn't quit our jobwithout telling me.
We wouldn't not take meds.
We would take a shower.
We would, like we I had
I had some boundariesand I just said, you're going to do those.
And and then it was better.
So we actually didn't officiallytell the kids
(45:35):
bipolar anxiety, depression until 2020.
Okay.
And that was because he had an episode
during Covid and he couldn't be admitted.
And we were at home.
So we had to episode at home.
And by then my oldest were,plenty old in high school.
(45:56):
And we sat everybody down
and he explained to them as best he could,he was in the middle of an episode.
But he explained, and then we let them askquestions and, and and talk about it.
So would you, after going throughall of that, I mean, I understand
the reluctance with to tell your kids
and how you do that, but in hindsight,would you say it would have been
(46:18):
better to be open about that earlierand give words to what was going on?
I don't thinkthey were smart enough or aware enough.
I shouldn't say smart.
They weren't aware enough to, digestthat information.
I think Anne did a great job.
kind of keeping
(46:39):
a rosy picture for the kidsto not have to worry.
I tried really hard to protect themfrom that,
to keep life as normal as possible,to keep them in,
their teams or sports eventsor in their small groups,
and having, substitutelike dads step in the picture.
(46:59):
My mom helped, but there wasn'ta lot of people that we told in general.
Right?
So so it was difficult to say the words
anyway, let alone to say them to our kids,because then what would they do?
Go tell all their friends or something?
And very possible, very possible. Yeah.
And I it's ridiculous that we worryso much about our reputation,
(47:21):
but and it wasn't likewe were hiding the information.
It was just that we were notacknowledging it with them and making it
a topic of conversation. Yeah.
And embedding it in their mind that, oh,there's a serious problem with that.
Yeah. that kind of thing.
We were just kind of keeping it like,stay young, be be free, Yeah, yeah.
(47:41):
And it it is a dilemma.
But the only thing isthat kids are in tune to ative
and they notice more and thatwhen they don't have an explanation,
they tell of something.
And sometimes the thing that they tellthemselves is worse
than what they would say.
What if you told them the truthand you, padded it into a way
(48:03):
that we're taking care of this and it'sokay.
And daddy. Yeah.
From this and.
Yeah, and not because and it's
not because you he doesn't love youthat he's not at his game.
He's just physicallycan't be at his at the game.
Yeah. The thing. So it's Yeah.
So that that's the thingthat you have to kind of
weigh is, is like, what are theytelling themselves because they do
(48:27):
not even when they're little,they do notice there is a problem.
They're asking questions.
something? You guys did what was wrong.
It is a it is your own decision.
And it's and it's difficult.
And and with the whole mental illnessthing.
Yeah, I mean, what you would be thinkingwhat you would be thinking about
that and worrying about that,
I wonder too what
(48:48):
they would say nowand maybe after your next podcast.
Yeah. Ask them.
All right.
At least our two oldest.
I don't think we ever pulledthe wool over their eyes.
I just don't think we acknowledgedthe full truth of what was going on.
I, I don't know, I mean, yeah,
little I mean,but you think I think we were transparent.
(49:09):
I think we were transparent nowto some degree,
I don't know, what do you think?
I, I think that you thoughtyou were transparent, but you weren't.
Well,I may have been one on one with them,
in some way when they were older.
When they were old. Yes.You know, that is true.
Our son, definitely had a conversationwith him when he was a little bit older.
(49:31):
Yeah.
But I, I definitely didn't want themto have a tainted vision of their father.
And so I tried really hard to build
his image in their mind to be positive,
which I appreciated because of the factthat when a divorcing couple happens
with their kids, a lot of timesthey pick sides and they taint the waters
(49:55):
for the other spouseand they, forecast this picture
of how bad they were and all that kindof stuff happens in a divorcing situation.
And so I was very grateful that we always
communicated love,but Dad is sick right now.
Yeah, I remember, my oldest
asking, is itis it supposed to be like this?
(50:16):
Like she was just starting to, like,like boys and want to go on dates
and whatnot, and she asked, isit supposed to be like this?
And I said, no,
it's not supposed to be like this.
And, and I said, whoever you choose tomarry should love and honor and cherish
you. And and, it's not supposed to be themsleeping all the time.
(50:39):
It's not supposed to be them.
Not wanting to participate.
So, I don't know if that was the rightthing to say then, but I was very much
hurting and, alone in raisingall the kids, and that's how I felt.
She brought that up to me, just this year,
because she's found a boythat she thinks she wants to marry, and.
(51:01):
And she said, don't worry, mommy.
He loves and cherishes me.
And I
was like,okay, well, at least it had a good effect.
I don't know, it's definitely,when you're in the middle of it.
And because I was so emotional and,just so full of responsibilities,
it was very hard for meto show appropriate emotion
(51:24):
unless I was just pretending that it wasall great so that they would be okay.
Well, and I think,I mean, there's all kinds of good things
about being Christian.
And, we're we're all Christians,and no matter
nothing that happens to usis going to change our viewpoint.
what?
We our faith is strong,
but we kind of mess things upa little bit in the church
because there is that thingof having to be okay and look good
(51:49):
and make it look like we've got everythingall together
and that, it's, it's okay.
And, and then even the whole thing of,well, I have to respect my husband
and I have to honor my husband,and I can't tell anybody that he's
having a psychotic episodeor that he's sleeping all the time
because that's going to dishonor him.
(52:10):
And, you know, that's going to makepeople think badly of him.
So maybe I shouldn't say anything, andand maybe I should, I should, just keep
keep doing it and keep submitting and keeptaking care of him and all this stuff.
So it kind of and I rememberthe one time that I met you and, you
he had during that, I think he hadlost his job during the second episode.
(52:35):
And you were like, I have enough moneyto pay for things for like five days.
And that's it.
And I said,oh my gosh, aren't you worried?
And you said, thank you for saying that.
Do you remember this? You're like,thank you for saving that.
I think if you would have said to me,oh, okay, trust God.
(52:55):
After all the peoplethat have said that to me, you're like,
I probablyI think you said something like,
I probably would have lost itor I would have smacked you or something.
You said something really like that.
And I'm like, oh, I'm sure so,oh, you should be worried.
I'd be worried too. And just do it.
And to try to prepare and then trust God.
(53:19):
That's what you have to do. You're like,
thank you.
So right. It's so true.
I mean, so many people said, oh,the Lord knows the plans.
Oh, some just find the good in thisor you'll be fine.
He'll take care of you.
But then in the same breath,they walking away.
They're not like saying,can I watch your kids?
(53:41):
They're not saying, do you need diapers?
They're not saying, can I buy milk?
They're just saying,oh, I'm so sorry. Don't worry.
The Lord will take care of you.And then they walk away.
That that's
when they talks about in James,when he's talking about faith has works.
And that if your faith doesn'thave works, it's dead.
And he gives that example.
Somebody walks up to youand they need food and clothing,
(54:04):
and you say to them,the Lord bless you and keep you.
And the person walks away, but you don'tgive him any food or clothing, nothing.
He's like, no, that's not right.
That's not the way it's supposed to be.
And it doesn't mean that we have to, helpevery single person that comes up to us.
You know, there has to be a balancethat works in life for us to take care
(54:27):
of our own life and family.
But we certainly have to realizethat giving people platitudes
all the time is not helpful,and it's actually painful.
And it actually pushes people
into the dark to where they don'twant to admit that they have problems.
Yeah, exactly.
That's what I did.
And I stopped telling peoplebecause I didn't
(54:48):
when I got that responsethen then I got the judgment.
Yep. From itinstead of the encouragement from it.
And it was really hardto like walk into church.
I still, like allthe eyes were looking at me
because I wasn't doing it right,or we weren't performing right,
or if I made him come to church with meand he fell asleep during the service,
(55:08):
I was embarrassedthat he was falling asleep in the service.
And, like they're just like,I don't the reputation thing
was really something I struggledwith a lot, knowing how to handle that
and keep friends that didn't judge,but certainly, there were some that I
trusted that
were wonderfuland some that I trusted that bit me back.
(55:30):
And, that was really hard to know.
The difference.
Like, who is safe to share with.
Absolutely.
I think your experienceis probably pretty common.
And, and you were, but
and I have to say, like,I mean, you were an inmate.
You are an amazing mom.
You have, like, you're an Energizer bunny.
(55:53):
And, I remember you were doingyou were homeschooling
and you were doing stuff all day long,and you were carrying a heavy load
and then you were working at nightdoing as many hours as you can.
And just you still kept your kidsand went places with them.
And you ran programs for themso that they could be in there.
And, I mean, so you were really,really burning the candle
(56:16):
on both ends and holding up,but it wasn't easy.
And it was taking a toll on youand it wasn't.
I wanted them to have the most normalchildhood as they could.
I didn't want this to be an excuse.
I didn't want them to be counselingwhen they were older, saying that
their childhood was awful and thatthat was my mission and that ended up
(56:41):
like consuming my every thought, made surethey're okay, make sure they're happy,
make sure they had their story reador their playdate at the park or whatever.
That was super important to me.
I don't know if that is the right advice.
I and I have a very good relationshipwith my children
now, and I feel like all five of them are,coming to me.
(57:03):
Even my most recent 16 year old was like,well, mommy, you're a counselor.
So, do I have to pay youor can we have a session? So
I was like,
I know thatyour kids are going to all be fantastic
and have a good life and that they've hada wonderful experience in your home and,
(57:26):
so let me let me just I think we're goingto have to split this into two
because we've already gone a good while.
And, so I'm just going to go aheadand end it here,
and then we'll, I'll come backand we'll start a second one
and, we'll look forwardto hearing part two.
(57:47):
So thank you. And thank you.
Yeah. Thanks.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
(58:08):
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.
(00:29):
I'd like to welcome
you to Change My Relationship podcast.
And I'm so excited todayto have a couple with me
that I've been tryingto get on for a long time.
And I've known for a long timeand watch their journey.
And I think it's really goingto bless you.
It's going to give you some insightinto what it is like to have a medical
(00:50):
or a mental illness diagnosisin a marriage that you need to deal with
and figure out how to navigate and there's
a lot of options,there's a lot of complexities.
And I'm going to tell you
that I've been blessed to watch thiscouple navigate it with courage.
And there have been some real rough spots.
And they're going to be honest today.
(01:10):
They're going to tell you about those.
And we're going to use their real names.
And they can explain why,that is important to them.
And I think you'rereally going to enjoy it.
So I'd like to welcome John and Anne.
Hi. Hello there.
Great to have you.
We're just going to jump right inand we're going to go for it.
(01:31):
So I love your story.
How did you guys meet?
Well we were high school sweethearts.
We met in high school.
In college we dated in, high school.
Very young age. Junior. Junior 16.
You know, we we met at church,and I saw her at the summer
camp, and I thought, wow, that's somebodyI want to go out with.
(01:53):
And you chased her aroundwith some amazing story.
Follow me around her.
Yeah, right. Five days. Right.
I tried to follow her around the campso that I could ask her to the banquet
at the end of the week, and.
And, I mean, girls, that all decided
that we were not goingto have any hookups at camp,
so I was not allowed to talk to youbecause they said no hookups at camp.
(02:14):
Well, by hookups, she just meansgo to the banquet with nobody.
it's all she means.
Dinner. Yeah.
Yeah.
No, but,chased her around and saw her at church,
and I thought, that's somebodyI would really like to get to know.
And, she broke downand invited me to the girls table.
I was the only boy at the table, and thenhad a banquet on my 16th birthday, and.
Yeah. And, so we've been together longer.
(02:37):
We're both in the agerange of 15 years old.
Yeah.
So over 30 years, a long time. Wow.
That is a really long time.
You didn't break up at all after that.
That was it, like. Oh, no, we did.
We did have a break up in college.
We had two girls months.
Yeah. Break up.
it kind of matured us,from a high school relationship
to more of a serious relationship.
(02:58):
And then obviously the distance.
We dated for five and a half, six yearsand total time period.
But a ten month break up,which was very helpful to us.
It's funnythat you say ten months, Exactly.
I want said a year.
I did, and that's funnybecause I, I, I had a harder time
moving on in the breakup.
And then about the minute
I broke, broke and started to movethe direction away from her.
(03:21):
She came back at that time and said,okay, let's get back together, you know,
so we, we, ended up getting back togetherin about ten months.
Yeah.
And then we were marriedshortly after that.
Yeah, maybe a year, about a year later,within a year or something like that.
21 young.What was your early marriage like?
Well, I think we
(03:42):
experienced all the typical thingsthat you experienced in an early marriage.
In the first three years,we we struggled with in-laws.
We struggled with intimacy,intimacy issues
and, finances 21 or 22 very young.
We were young and,
they had different expectations,certainly as what marriage would be.
I was in grad school.
(04:03):
He was playing shows at night.
And so we were ships in the night.
He was working at night.
I was working in the day and yeah, I was,
I would say we had, the,the typical problems that most married
couples face in the, the,the rough three areas, Yeah.
(04:23):
But, we still see each other. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, we still enjoyed being married,and we were advancing in career choices.
Yeah.
Things of that nature and having goodsuccesses, both of us in our careers.
And so we were flourishing, in those waysfor sure.
Yeah.
We, struggled emotionally to connect.
(04:44):
Some of that was our familiesand some of that was our personalities
and the baggagethat we both brought to the table.
So we tried to do like marriage intensives
and marriage books and marriagesmall groups.
And, I mean, we joined everythingwe possibly could think of, but,
bible studies everything.
(05:05):
Everything.
we did some counseling things,counseling,
marriage counseling, pre marriagecounseling just weren't connecting, like,
understanding each other.
Well, obviously later we found out why.
But in the early stages of marriage,it was we just were not, definitely
having a relationshipthat was, communicative, I guess.
(05:27):
Communicating. Yeah.
Yeah. Don't you think? Yeah.
I'm not sure exactly what to sayabout that, about it, but,
we we had a marriage, but it was young,and it we definitely had challenge,
in areas like,just I had, feelings that I was
we were going to get married,and it was just going to be intimacy.
Every day, all the time.
(05:47):
And she had this feelingthat was completely different, and,
and there were a lot of frustrating,circumstances for me.
And then there was a lot of,an uneasy feelings
for her and, and,typical marriage problems.
Yeah, yeah.
And we just, had to work through them.
That took about six years, probably
beforewe were able to be on the same page.
(06:10):
And then we had a baby, so, you know, thatthrew a wrench in all of it.
Well, it changed everything.
Yes. Oh, no, it totally does.
You didn’t have your first babyuntil six years into the marriage.
Yeah. Yeah. We had.
So we did live, a newlywed, kind of.
Yeah. Just as couples for a while.
We dated for five and a half years,and then we had marriage for six years
(06:32):
without kids. Well, remember,we weren't going to have children.
We weren't at one pointgoing to have children. Now we have five.
We were not.
We had decided we were not.
I have six siblings. Here's five.
We decidedwe were not going to have children.
And then God laughedand gave us five right?
So yeah.
(06:52):
Funny, interesting.
Well, okay.
So whenand how did the bipolar first, occur?
And, what did you noticeand how did you guys respond to it?
We were married in 96,
and the first episode that I had was 2010,
but there were depressionand anxiety and issues that took place
(07:13):
halfway through that timeperiod, maybe 2000,
three, that went before kids.
And I was in my early career.
I remember talking to colleagues abouthow, how do you connect with your husband?
How come we can't have a conversation?
Why does he want to sleepand not talk to me?
What's wrong?
(07:33):
What are we.
What am I doing wrong? Well, hindsight.
Now I understand that was probably anxietyand major depressive disorder
manifesting in our relationship anxietiesand trying to figure that out.
And so that doesn't.
Now I understand,but at the time it was a struggle.
So looking back, I see dayswhere he would be on the couch sleeping.
(07:59):
And I'm at work because he was a musicianat night and I was a pscyh in the day,
and then he would justgo to work, but there was no
I just assumedit was something I was doing wrong.
And then later we learned it was one ofthe symptoms that he, struggles with.
Yeah.
(08:20):
Yeah.
So that was, before kids and then.
Sorry. Go ahead.
Yeah.
I was just thinking there's,there was a time period where, she was
starting to wanted to have kids,and then that changed our roles.
And I had to, change career choices.
And, that brought in some depressionfor me, because as a man,
(08:44):
you kind of identify with what you dofor a living as who you are.
And so when I changed careers,I tried to find something
that was self-employed that would allow meto continue with performing.
But at the same time, it it really did
a number on meat that time, depression wise,
because I just didn't feel,like I have any choice in the matter.
(09:07):
Yeah.
You know, well, a little bit back storywith that.
After our oldest was born,I went back to work right away.
I think like nine,nine weeks old or something.
And he was a stay at home dad,so stay at home dad took care of her.
I went to work.
And then our second one,he was born with a rare genetic illness.
And, he was in the hospital a lot.
(09:30):
And this is another one of the symptomsthat we discovered later for him
is that he does not likemy husband, does not like hospitals.
He does not always believewhat the doctors are saying.
And so when my son was diagnosed,he did not think it was a real diagnosis.
So when he got sick, I took care of him.
(09:50):
But then I couldn't workbecause I was taking care of him.
And then my work said,you cannot keep taking days off.
And they forced me to take,family medical leave.
And then after 12 weeks they said,so we'll see you on Monday.
And he was in the hospital,so I said, I can't do that.
And so they gave me 12 monthsto figure it out.
(10:14):
So they said, and and then at 12 months,
randomly enough, they'll say, said,I'll see you Monday.
And he was in the hospital again.
So it just, it was a clear indicationthat I was supposed to resign.
So I had to resign from my jobto take care of him
because it was very hard.
For him to
(10:36):
to take care
of the babies now that that he was sick
and had a lot of doctor's appointments,and I couldn't just go to work, I had.
And he wasn't able to be in a daycare,so it was forced
upon me to quitand forced upon him to find a job.
And the whole thing was just stressful.
We spent many nightswondering if the baby was going to live
(10:57):
through the night here.
He had a heart monitor on,and we didn't know
if he was gonna wake up in the morning,so it was very stressful
feeding himevery two hours around the clock.
And our marriage definitely was a
it was a hard timebecause he didn't want the hospital.
He didn't like the doctors and
we didn't know he was going to live.
So this was all pre diagnosis.
(11:19):
Episode pre - episode I just want tomention yeah that's a good point.
You know this was all just we
didn't know thatthere was an underlying issue with me.
Mental health wise.
That's a good point.
know so there was a lot of challengesthat we were facing.
Yeah.
But, nothing really presented itself untilmaybe 6 to 10 years after this point.
(11:41):
that's a good point,because then I, I was upset at him.
Yes. Like, why aren't you helping me?
Our child is sick, right?
Why are you mad that he's in the hospital?
Why are you mad that I have to quit?
Like there were so many questionsin my brain that in my heart
thought he doesn't care, right?
(12:03):
And I was kind of unengaged.
Was a key word that came uplike, as a family, just because
I was kind of tuned out to what was reallythe pulse of what was going on,
I was sleeping,I was, resting, just constantly,
pushing off the responsibility,you know, in a way, and just not acting,
as a really good partnerin the, in the relationship. But
(12:27):
not really having a reason whythat was happening.
We didn't really haveany kind of understanding as to
what was what was going onwith me, necessarily.
And then,the Lord saw fit to give us more children.
And so we I was either pregnant, nursing
in the hospital with my son, pregnant,nursing in the house.
(12:48):
Like it was just it was constant.
For almost ten years of of that.
And so between usand this was still pre episode.
Right.
I was done taking care of a sixth child
and I was done thinkinghe didn't care what I did.
(13:11):
It was definitely,reactive to what he was doing.
And he didn't even seehe was doing anything
right.
Is that you agree with that? Yeah, in a way.
I think it got really bad afterthe episode, you know, it just was before.
That's just leading up to.
Yeah, I think I think everythinggot really dark and kind of, heavy for us.
(13:36):
Yeah.
After the episode, after the diagnosis,you've got a mental illness.
We're calling it bipolar.
We're calling it, what?
We know as doctors to call it, paranoia,anxiety, depression.
We see, highs and lows, manic,you know, stuff like that.
All those thingskind of came out, in 2010.
(13:57):
Yeah.
And then it was try to fix,
get medicated, get,
fix the issue that we had discovered.
Yeah. and, that's where I feel
it became so
frustrating that we had ten yearsof marriage with frustration
(14:18):
leading into now we're in real bad shape
because because we obviouslyhave a real problem on our hands.
Right.
And that's when,I think things, you couple that
with the financial stressof trying to play shows,
trying to find a new career for himthat wasn't going well,
my not being able to workbecause I had to take care of my son.
(14:41):
And then all these babies.
It was just before it even.
It was just just in general.
It was just a very, normal in our life.
It felt like to live that was normal.
Like all of that stress was just felt likeit just was all the time.
Yeah.You guys are referring to the episode.
So just in casefor people that are listening
(15:02):
on, are not sure what you meanby a bipolar episode,
can you explain what happenedand what all that's about?
Yeah.
it's interesting.
I have kind of a photographic memoryof the encounter that I had
with this mental breakthat I think of it as, but
(15:22):
I don't have the greatest memory anymore.
But I do have a vivid memoryof what I went through, in an experience
where basically for months,during the financial crisis,
that we all experienced 25 through eight,they call it eight.
I said I was aware of thingsgetting bad in 2005, mentally,
(15:43):
by being in the industry,mortgage as well, very, very hour.
And so I kind of had my pulse on this,area that was going to explode.
And I was internally just, cyclingand mentally processing
all this informationregularly to the point where
I feel like I almost kind of talked myselfinto a mental, breakdown.
(16:05):
It was, it was roleplaying, discussing issues
with friends and the office, peoplethat I had encounters with
that were also in the industry,that led to basically
a whole bunch of stressful eventsthat happened.
I lost my contract at work.
I lost, we had neighborsthreatening to sue us over a tree.
We had a fifth pregnancythat was unexpected.
(16:28):
We had a lot of different key factorsthat may be attributed
to bringing out this, experiencethat I went through this episode.
But what happened isI became paranoid in my mind
that I was going to lose everything.
The, financially, I wasI felt like, the case to me.
You thought paranoia.
You thought I was.
(16:49):
I wasn't thinking rationally.
I was, basically thinking that the FBIwas going to come after the mortgage.
Individuals or sue us or,
I was thinking that, there were seriousconsequences coming our way,
and I was I had just built up in my mind,all these pressures
and unrealistic things that were coming,my way or potentially coming my way.
(17:14):
And I wasn't even doing anything wrong,it was just all mental.
creation, self-fulfilling prophecy.
You think something bad's going to happen,so you obsess about something
bad happening,so something does happen that goes bad.
And so you felt likepeople were watching you?
Yeah, I would see real thingsthat were happening.
(17:35):
Yeah, I would, I would see real thingshappening, like a helicopter landing
in the back of the office buildingand think it had something to do with me.
The FBI is coming to watch me.
The, the, the, like this guilty complex.
And I honestly operated as a Christian,
a good person, ethical personfor my entire life.
(17:58):
But there was something paranoidin my mind that was telling me that
the things that I was seeing meant morethan they actually were.
There was a bigger storygoing on and everything.
And I, and I've heard something aboutmental illness is the what
what is important tothe individual becomes greatly enhanced
and more, more, so like,if I'm, I can imagine these people
(18:22):
that are out therethat shoot up a building,
that may have a mental
breakdown or something like that,because if they're big into guns
or big into violence or big into payback,or I'm going to get this person,
if they had what I experienced,that's exactly what would they
would will dois, is is blow up some place or,
because that's what they were intonow I was into the end times growing up,
(18:46):
Christian, the rapture, the rapture,revelations, all these things.
And I actually experienced a situation
where I felt likeI was living in the rapture,
and that these things around me
all were indicationsthat the rapture was occurring.
And I wasn't saved, oh, no, somehowit wasn't saved.
And so I literally believed in my mind.
(19:08):
The panic and paranoiathat I was experiencing was that I wasn't
actually a believer, a Christian,and that everybody around me,
all my Christian friends, were saved,and I was not going to heaven.
And and I was not going toI was not raptured along with them.
So this whole story in my mind just was
really intense.
(19:29):
It would be a great book,
intense that he called the pastorof the church and wanted to have
a special meeting with him to tell himwhat he knew to be true and to act.
And what did you sayyou wanted everyone to move to?
India they were building?They were building homes in India.
We wanted everyone to move.
We had to flee the country
because everything was, the LeftBehind series that you read?
(19:52):
Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins wrote thatit was not the only
it was your your movie about thator your experience about that.
It was my experience. Yeah.
So so that was basically considereda psychotic episode.
And what you're talking aboutis delusions and.
Yeah, hallucinations.
And so believing things are therethat aren't there and
(20:14):
it's the it's that comes out of aftermania usually,
which I'm sure you experiencedthe mania of the rapid thoughts
and then not being able to sleep andall of that grandiose kind of illusions.
But, a psychotic episode can be triggered,as I know, you know, now by stress.
So the fact that you had a lot of stresscould have actually brought that on.
(20:36):
And like you said,
the thinking became more and moreand it all kind of works together.
The stress causes, the increased anxiety.
And then as you're the mania goes upand all of that, but all of that,
Then itit ends up into a psychotic episode.
So yeah, that's what I experienced.
That's what we mean by episode. Yeah.
Yes and yes.
(20:57):
You I know he ended up in the hospitalright?
For a while, and this was.
Yeah.
So he was, actually originally
when he was havingthese paranoid thoughts,
I didn't recognize them as that.
I didn't I didn't know, honestly.
We had come to such apoint in our marriage that I,
I was just raisingthe kids, and he was doing his thing.
(21:20):
So it's
it's not something I recognizedright away.
After he met with the pastor,the pastor called a friend of ours
who then called meand asked if he could take,
He and a couple of our small groupguys take him out to dinner and ask him
the questions, about the paranoia,and then after their dinner,
(21:40):
he called me and he said, yeah,he needs to go to the hospital.
And I was like,what do you mean? He's fine?
Clearly I didn't.
I was I am nine months pregnant.
I hadn't delivered my fifth one yet.
And I took him to the ER,
because they told me I had to.
I had no idea that that would lead to
(22:03):
being admitted into the
hospital for weeks and all of that.
They took me to the hospitaland we all met there, and everyone
was taking me thereto get my help from the doctors.
Yeah.
And what that meant to me was
they were taking me to the doctors,quote unquote, which was the devil.
In my mind,
and that they were basically turning me innow because I hadn't been raptured
(22:26):
with everyone elseand that I had to see the devil.
And so the psychotic thought led me
to running out the hospital door, breakingthrough the back exit, Yeah, yeah.
So I spent the night running, out the doorand evading cops, sleeping in bushes,
running through the, river way or whateveryou want to call it, the the sewers,
(22:47):
you know, to make my way back home,which I'm not a very athletic person,
but made my way a 20 minute drive, to our
our house, talking to my self and,
thinking everybody could hear my voicesas I was, through my,
through my communicationsomehow, I got home
and it was doors locked.
(23:08):
My mother in lawand my wife were inside with my children.
Nobody answering the door, but everybodywas there and aware that I was back.
And I went to the backwindow of our bathroom,
and it was there that I caught eyes
with my wife through the window,and she said, I can't let you in.
We're going to call the police,and they're going to come help you.
(23:28):
And it was at that momentthat something triggered in me that said,
okay, something's not right with me.
I'm not sure what I was thinking, but
I'm going to go aheadand surrender at this point.
And so that's when I let the policetake me in the back of the
cop car to the, medical centerand diagnosed with bipolar, where they put
(23:51):
me on, admitted into the medical, psychunit ward for 7 to 10 day hold.
And I think it was there 14 days,something like that.
And, boy,did I experience something there.
That's another book.
as far as what I was seeing,because I was still experiencing
the episode, thoughtsand the names of the patients
were all people's names
that I had encountered in my life,which all meant something to me.
(24:14):
I met someone in there that said he was.
Name was Michael,and he told me he was an angel.
And, all these different crazy experiencesthat I went through, in that psych ward.
But, I was a patient for sure,
experiencingwhat they were experiencing as well.
And so I was heavily medicatedfor the next year on different doses of
(24:36):
different typesof medicines, trying to figure out what it
what I needed to be stableand what I need.
And that was a horrible experiencethat made
everything exaggerated and worse for me.
Because when you're tryingto get the medicines right,
it's a trial and errorand it doesn't happen instantly.
Some some of these medicinesdon't take effect for 30, 60 days.
(24:59):
side effects.
There's, lethargic, side effects,all these different things.
So, I was very,very fortunate to have a patient wife,
but I had doctors telling me, oh,you guys are going to get divorced.
Don't even worry about it.
Oh, you know that great psychiatry.
I think you're insane, and and Iwould leave the the psychiatrists, office
(25:21):
and call her crying and saying,I don't want to get a divorce, but,
they're charming.
We're going to get divorced, and I'm goingthrough, traumatic experience.
And I'm not really finding great helpin some, some doctors.
And I'm findinggood help with others. And,
so the
diagnosis came out of that,that it was a bipolar diagnosis.
Now my diagnosis is more paranoia focused
(25:45):
and focused on anxiety and stuff like thatthat I deal with.
I do, so I don't know.
Yeah, that's kind of how we got there.
And you obviously understood
bipolar having a psych degree, but.
I thought I did, but I didn't.
Yeah, I definitely didn't.
(26:06):
I mean, I kicked myself laterfor not seeing
the symptoms right in front of me.
So the first thing I didwhen got the diagnosis
was to take a class,because I took a 16 week course on
what is bipolar, for relativesor spouses of recently diagnosed.
That was the Nami one.
The Nami one. Yeah, through.
(26:28):
We've actually metat one of the hospital, like,
rooms, like multi-purpose rooms there.
There was a lot of familiesthere who had, children with bipolar
or maybe, a sibling,
but I was the only wife there.
Had a husband. Yes.
(26:51):
Well, and it's taken years for me
to find another wifewho has a husband with bipolar.
I think I maybe knowone in in the entire U.S..
And I am in another group.
That is for spouses of mentally ill.
(27:11):
And even then, I'm still they’remostly men talking about their wives.
It's I mean, it's true, the statistic.
Unfortunately they don't.
They just didn't stay married.
Not number one in our marriage.
I was I was working,so I had that work ethic.
I wasn't reliant 100% on his income.
(27:33):
And I would guess that most other couples,
why would you stay with someonethat you have to support
financially, physically,emotionally when you can marry
someone who would support you so I getI get the easy out.
But we were told that everywherewe went, counselors
to both of our faces, several to mewhile he was sitting there.
(27:54):
Why are you still here?
Yeah.
And they were Christian counselors,some of them.
So we had a very hard timefinding support.
As a married couple. Did it.
That is really sad, though, because,I mean, we we're going to go through
your story of the support that you foundin how you guys were able to do it.
But there are tools.
(28:16):
There are obviously not enough programs,as you found out,
but we know that there are other wives
with husbands with bipolar must be hiding
becauseI don't know if they're absolutely.
Does the statistics showthat that is the case?
(28:37):
All right.
So it has to be.
But yeah,maybe a lot of them aren't staying
married and seeking help,which is really, really sad.
So so now you came homewith the diagnosis.
All the side effectswas that when I met you,
when you.
No, no, no, no.
That was the second episode.
(28:59):
Over to that for like 3 or 4 years later.
So I like I said before
I was I was nine months pregnant,so he was in the hospital.
They let him outbecause I was going to deliver.
So he was out for just a few days,and then I ended up having a C-section.
and remember he doesn’t like hospitals,so he came and left.
(29:19):
Which was fine,but I had to have full time
care for my other kidsbecause he wasn't able to do it.
Then I go home with a newbornand four other babies.
Three of them were in diapersat the same time,
and he was still sleepingbecause he'd just gotten out of hospital.
So that was that was really hard.
(29:40):
And I just took one step at a time.
But there were several people
from the churchwho recognized that I wasn't doing well.
The care ministries reached out to meand said, we're nervous for you.
How can we help you?
And, remember,I had quit my job to take care of my son.
At this time. I was just, like, tutoring.
(30:02):
Really? That's it?
Because I had all the babies.
And now obviously, he has no job, at all.
So we had $0 and all these babies.
And so the church helpedsupport us for a little bit,
but they put me throughan interview process.
With Care Ministriesand decided that I was suicidal. Oh,
we're, you know,
(30:26):
there were moments when it would have beenmuch easier to just drive off the cliff.
Yeah.
And that is how I ended upfinally meeting you,
because the church put me in, touch
with, a ministry for, suicide prevention.
And they paid for my counseling,
(30:47):
for, a long time, like three years.
A really long time.
And as the counseling was comingto an end, because my funds were up,
was when your name came upand she said, well, I feel like
you're not going to hurt yourself anymore,but you can't.
You're not going to survive thiswithout help.
(31:08):
And so she, referred meto try one of your classes,
and then that's when Ithat was that first night
I met you, when I came in the back doorand wore a baseball cap
and hid in the back.
Were you are you comfortable
telling why you came through the back doorand wore a baseball cap or,
(31:30):
so, you've been a part of the churchfor 20 something years already.
I was in leadershipthere for the moms group,
and I was, speaker for the moms group.
I mean, I had babies,and I understood preschoolers,
and I'm a psychologist,so it only made sense. But
(31:50):
your class room was next door
to the classroomfor the moms that met at night.
My group met in the day,but I knew a lot of people
in the night classbecause we all met and taught together.
So I had to walk past
the class, and I,
(32:11):
I, I at this point,
I was in my mind falling apart.
My husband was still sleeping,we still had no job, and I
and bipolar or mental illness was ait was a bad thing.
It was not something
that would have been acceptedif I was going to be teaching other moms
(32:32):
how to be good moms, or how to bring Jesusinto their home or whatever.
And and so I, I didn't want to go at all.
But my counselor said I had to goand I just I follow the rules.
So I did, but I called you and askedif you could unlock the back door.
And I wore a hat, and I sat in the backand didn't talk to anybody.
(32:56):
For a while.
There was a few weeks that I was braveenough to walk through the front door.
And then about halfway through the classsemester or whatever, weeks wise,
I had I, of course, of course it happened.
Someone in the hall was like,hey, are you here to teach?
To teach the mom's class?
And I was like,and then she just kept talking,
(33:17):
so I didn't answer her, and she said,do you know what class meets next door?
That's forthat's for women in difficult marriage.
Who would admit that? No, no.
I was like,
I don't know who who would.
And then I was like,I'm going to go use the restroom.
(33:38):
And so I walked past your classand went to the restroom.
And then I don't remember.
I don't rememberif I stayed that night or not.
I obviously I didn't
go into the mom's classbecause that wasn't my class.
Okay.
I'm, I don't, I don't know, sometimeafter that, it is all a blur
because it was so hard, but,yeah, it was a very
(33:59):
it was a very emotional timeto admit that I needed help.
Yeah.
The women's pastor called me at home
during the weekthat he was in the hospital
the first time,because she knew I was fully pregnant.
And asked if she could comepray for me, and I said no.
I said, no,
I, I can't, I just need to be alone.
(34:21):
And the crawling in my mind,I needed to crawl
in a corner and hide from everybodybecause it was just too hard.
And I was pregnant and emotionaland obviously irrational. But,
The next week, Beth Moore came to town
and the women's pastor took me.
She picked me up.
(34:42):
She took me to the Beth Moore Conferenceand fed me and, made sure I was okay.
My kids were being taken, taken care ofso by someone else,
and then brought me home.
And I delivered on Monday
just so I could go to the BethMoore concert or Beth Moore conference.
But it's because I wanted to hideand she knew it.
And so anyway,all that to say is it was really,
(35:06):
really hard to,
say it out loudand to the people I was ministering to.
Yeah.
And and didn't you have one time lateror one time with somebody, one of your
friends, a kid's friend's parent,found out that your husband had bipolar.
And what did they say?
I don't know how it happened to spread,but it's even though
(35:27):
LA's big, it's a small town,so when you're in a church.
So, they knew, somehow people knew.
And so my kids were getting uninvitedto birthday parties.
One, I was so upset that I called the mom,and I was like, look,
you invited every single childin the class except my son.
(35:48):
Do you realize that?
Well, yeah.
And and, well, we justwe had to limit the number.
It was, it was a bunch of BS. But,she just.
Yeah, it happened a lot.
They were uninvited.
They weren't.
Some others that found out didn'tlet their kids come play at our house.
That was a huge a huge thing too,
(36:08):
as a couple, we were not invitedas much to places like we used to be.
It was just awkward everywhere, and andit felt like all eyes were looking at me.
Whether that was trueor not at the moment, it felt like it.
And it was just easierto hide in the corner.
And that was when the church stepped in
and said, something's not okay,and how can we help you?
(36:29):
And it's only because I was in leadershipand a big part of the church
that it was even recognizedthat I wasn't doing well.
I did meet with the Sunday schoolteachers at church, and I told them,
if the kids are upset or crying,
my husband is isn't doing well right now,so please call me so I can come get them.
Like that was as much as I told themso they knew something,
(36:52):
but I'm sure they found out I don't. Yeah.
And that that is really sad thattheir stigma with mental illness is there.
It's getting better.
And some churches are startingto try to recognize it
and understand it,but it is not very many.
And it's, the the stereotypes.
(37:14):
Unfortunately, I'm hoping that as peopletalk more and more and more about bipolar
and you hear it so frequently that, yeah,maybe the stigma is getting less, but
we don't know.
And that and that's why you guys saidI suggested let's, let's just
make this really comfortable for youto just not use your name.
(37:36):
So, you don't have to worry about thatand why we're not showing
the video portion of it,which is totally fine.
So now
what?
At this point in your marriage,this let's say it looks
bring it to the pointwhere you came to my class.
I remember some of the questionsyou asked me.
(37:56):
It's like,
do I how do I knowif I can not give him his medicine?
And what if he doesn't take it?
And what do I tell the kids and
how do I handle thiswhen he's in bed all day?
And what about his teeth?
And what if brushing his teethand taking a shower?
(38:20):
And do I have to remind himabout everything?
Do I have to be his momor can I let it go?
And what if it hurts him?
And what if he doesn'tdo what he needs to do?
And you have justall these kinds of questions
that you are really struggling with?
And yeah, you were strugglingwith what to say to him
and could you be honest with him?
So let's talk a little bitabout what was going on with you.
(38:44):
Yeah. So
I like I like I mentioned
I had five children and threewere in diapers in the beginning.
By the time I saw you,I had two in diapers.
But still very much,
having babies all the time around me.
And 100% of the time themneeding my full attention.
(39:08):
But also being pulled
to my husband, needing my full attention.
It was he had such a hard timejust doing the basic
not life necessities like showeringand using soap and brushing his teeth
and, eating healthyand not sleeping for days at a time.
(39:29):
And if and when we didgo out of the house,
like for church,because he grew up going to church.
So I'm supposed to be there, butthen he would spend the morning at church
and it would just drain himfor the whole rest of the day.
Sometimes the next day,in a ball in the corner.
He's just he had to have he had to, like,decompress from pretending for so long.
(39:54):
So that that was really, really hard.
Knowing
how do I, how do I
establish a boundary with somebodywho can't take care of himself?
And at what point doI not take care of him,
or is that wrong to not take care of him?
I mean, he's an adult.
(40:15):
I have babies that are literally cryingon the floor and diapers
that he's stepping overbecause he's not able to care for them.
But then, so I, I really struggled
with how to be a good wife.
And the advice I was getting from
(40:36):
the Christian perspective of churchwas, honor your husband.
Right.
And how how how could I honor him,
and serve himwhen he wouldn't take a shower?
He wouldn't get up or he wouldn't.
I don't know, there are so many wouldn't.
And again, no income coming in.
(40:58):
So going to food pantriestwice a week to feed the kids,
and, getting free books in the library
to entertain them, going to the park,wherever I could do for free
and as much out of the houseas we could do, because it was hard
for them to see him in bed,they would ask, why is daddy sleeping?
What's wrong? Is he sick again?
(41:19):
Or why doesn'tdaddy want to come to my, soccer game?
Or how come when he comes does he doesn't?
Why doesn't he watch?
Or why are we taking two carswhen we're going to the same place?
There's just so, so many things.
There was a point after the first episode,about a year later,
maybe, where he decidedhe didn't need medicine anymore.
(41:41):
He would be better without it.
He stopped taking it, didn't tell me.
And that was like December, January,
and by spring we were blowing up arguing,which he never argued.
So I knew something was wrong.
And then by, later wasI think it was in the fall.
So we're almost a year later,
(42:01):
he's had another episodeand we had to admit him again.
And, that was when I,
my two oldest were like
eight and ten, nineand 11 right around that age.
They, they knew that he wasn't home.
And where is he?
(42:21):
I told the little onesthat he was playing a show.
But the older ones,they knew that something was wrong.
So I tried to explain to themthat daddy was just sick
and he was in the hospital, and thathe really couldn't come watch the games.
You really can't be.
My sonreally wanted him to be in Boy Scouts.
Like there was a couple dad thingsyou supposed to do with him.
(42:42):
He just couldn't do it.
And he wasmy son was very upset about that.
So I explained he's sick.
He can't help it. We didn't go into
medical terms or anything like that.
We didn't talk mental illness at all.
I just explained that daddy was sickand he needed to rest.
(43:02):
And we're going to take care of him.
And could you help me take care of him?
So that at least help alleviate.
And then I found another dadin the community
that I was able to confide inthat took him.
under his wing and took care of him.
Went to went to the, BoyScout things with him.
Went to, all of the dad things at church.
(43:26):
Took him over to his house,did boy stuff with him.
I don't know when shooting or whatever.
They did wrestling boy things,and that really helped a lot.
And then I just was closer with my oldestand making sure she was okay.
She was a caretaker already,so she took on the role
of helping metake care of the little ones a lot.
(43:47):
Probably more than
any oldest would have.
But she knew that I was strugglingso she would bathe and change the babies
like it, ask if she could,and I would say you don't have to.
And she say, no, mommy,I want to help you.
And she she would watch all of thembetter than any babysitter.
(44:10):
And she was like 11 or 12,
and I could go to the grocery storeand trust that she was going to watch.
Even though he was home.
I he couldn't watch the kids.
I had to have somebody there,that was going to be watching.
So And I told you to go aheadand tell them
you did age appropriate.
(44:31):
Right. For the different ages.
Yeah, they just advanced, but didn'tyou do that?
I'm not too long after that.
We didn't,
No, I only the two oldest.
Did we tell,he was doing better after that
second episode, and
(44:52):
we came to the.
I came to the boundarythat he had to take his meds
or he couldn't stay living with us.
Yeah, and he couldn't not take themand not tell me,
like, if he didn't want to take them,then we would have a discussion.
But it was an agreement that we madethat he would take them
(45:12):
and and that we would havewe would find a counselor
and that we wouldn't quit our jobwithout telling me.
We wouldn't not take meds.
We would take a shower.
We would, like we I had
I had some boundariesand I just said, you're going to do those.
And and then it was better.
So we actually didn't officiallytell the kids
(45:35):
bipolar anxiety, depression until 2020.
Okay.
And that was because he had an episode
during Covid and he couldn't be admitted.
And we were at home.
So we had to episode at home.
And by then my oldest were,plenty old in high school.
(45:56):
And we sat everybody down
and he explained to them as best he could,he was in the middle of an episode.
But he explained, and then we let them askquestions and, and and talk about it.
So would you, after going throughall of that, I mean, I understand
the reluctance with to tell your kids
and how you do that, but in hindsight,would you say it would have been
(46:18):
better to be open about that earlierand give words to what was going on?
I don't thinkthey were smart enough or aware enough.
I shouldn't say smart.
They weren't aware enough to, digestthat information.
I think Anne did a great job.
kind of keeping
(46:39):
a rosy picture for the kidsto not have to worry.
I tried really hard to protect themfrom that,
to keep life as normal as possible,to keep them in,
their teams or sports eventsor in their small groups,
and having, substitutelike dads step in the picture.
(46:59):
My mom helped, but there wasn'ta lot of people that we told in general.
Right?
So so it was difficult to say the words
anyway, let alone to say them to our kids,because then what would they do?
Go tell all their friends or something?
And very possible, very possible. Yeah.
And I it's ridiculous that we worryso much about our reputation,
(47:21):
but and it wasn't likewe were hiding the information.
It was just that we were notacknowledging it with them and making it
a topic of conversation. Yeah.
And embedding it in their mind that, oh,there's a serious problem with that.
Yeah. that kind of thing.
We were just kind of keeping it like,stay young, be be free, Yeah, yeah.
(47:41):
And it it is a dilemma.
But the only thing isthat kids are in tune to ative
and they notice more and thatwhen they don't have an explanation,
they tell of something.
And sometimes the thing that they tellthemselves is worse
than what they would say.
What if you told them the truthand you, padded it into a way
(48:03):
that we're taking care of this and it'sokay.
And daddy. Yeah.
From this and.
Yeah, and not because and it's
not because you he doesn't love youthat he's not at his game.
He's just physicallycan't be at his at the game.
Yeah. The thing. So it's Yeah.
So that that's the thingthat you have to kind of
weigh is, is like, what are theytelling themselves because they do
(48:27):
not even when they're little,they do notice there is a problem.
They're asking questions.
something? You guys did what was wrong.
It is a it is your own decision.
And it's and it's difficult.
And and with the whole mental illnessthing.
Yeah, I mean, what you would be thinkingwhat you would be thinking about
that and worrying about that,
I wonder too what
(48:48):
they would say nowand maybe after your next podcast.
Yeah. Ask them.
All right.
At least our two oldest.
I don't think we ever pulledthe wool over their eyes.
I just don't think we acknowledgedthe full truth of what was going on.
I, I don't know, I mean, yeah,
little I mean,but you think I think we were transparent.
(49:09):
I think we were transparent nowto some degree,
I don't know, what do you think?
I, I think that you thoughtyou were transparent, but you weren't.
Well,I may have been one on one with them,
in some way when they were older.
When they were old. Yes.You know, that is true.
Our son, definitely had a conversationwith him when he was a little bit older.
(49:31):
Yeah.
But I, I definitely didn't want themto have a tainted vision of their father.
And so I tried really hard to build
his image in their mind to be positive,
which I appreciated because of the factthat when a divorcing couple happens
with their kids, a lot of timesthey pick sides and they taint the waters
(49:55):
for the other spouseand they, forecast this picture
of how bad they were and all that kindof stuff happens in a divorcing situation.
And so I was very grateful that we always
communicated love,but Dad is sick right now.
Yeah, I remember, my oldest
asking, is itis it supposed to be like this?
(50:16):
Like she was just starting to, like,like boys and want to go on dates
and whatnot, and she asked, isit supposed to be like this?
And I said, no,
it's not supposed to be like this.
And, and I said, whoever you choose tomarry should love and honor and cherish
you. And and, it's not supposed to be themsleeping all the time.
(50:39):
It's not supposed to be them.
Not wanting to participate.
So, I don't know if that was the rightthing to say then, but I was very much
hurting and, alone in raisingall the kids, and that's how I felt.
She brought that up to me, just this year,
because she's found a boythat she thinks she wants to marry, and.
(51:01):
And she said, don't worry, mommy.
He loves and cherishes me.
And I
was like,okay, well, at least it had a good effect.
I don't know, it's definitely,when you're in the middle of it.
And because I was so emotional and,just so full of responsibilities,
it was very hard for meto show appropriate emotion
(51:24):
unless I was just pretending that it wasall great so that they would be okay.
Well, and I think,I mean, there's all kinds of good things
about being Christian.
And, we're we're all Christians,and no matter
nothing that happens to usis going to change our viewpoint.
what?
We our faith is strong,
but we kind of mess things upa little bit in the church
because there is that thingof having to be okay and look good
(51:49):
and make it look like we've got everythingall together
and that, it's, it's okay.
And, and then even the whole thing of,well, I have to respect my husband
and I have to honor my husband,and I can't tell anybody that he's
having a psychotic episodeor that he's sleeping all the time
because that's going to dishonor him.
(52:10):
And, you know, that's going to makepeople think badly of him.
So maybe I shouldn't say anything, andand maybe I should, I should, just keep
keep doing it and keep submitting and keeptaking care of him and all this stuff.
So it kind of and I rememberthe one time that I met you and, you
he had during that, I think he hadlost his job during the second episode.
(52:35):
And you were like, I have enough moneyto pay for things for like five days.
And that's it.
And I said,oh my gosh, aren't you worried?
And you said, thank you for saying that.
Do you remember this? You're like,thank you for saving that.
I think if you would have said to me,oh, okay, trust God.
(52:55):
After all the peoplethat have said that to me, you're like,
I probablyI think you said something like,
I probably would have lost itor I would have smacked you or something.
You said something really like that.
And I'm like, oh, I'm sure so,oh, you should be worried.
I'd be worried too. And just do it.
And to try to prepare and then trust God.
(53:19):
That's what you have to do. You're like,
thank you.
So right. It's so true.
I mean, so many people said, oh,the Lord knows the plans.
Oh, some just find the good in thisor you'll be fine.
He'll take care of you.
But then in the same breath,they walking away.
They're not like saying,can I watch your kids?
(53:41):
They're not saying, do you need diapers?
They're not saying, can I buy milk?
They're just saying,oh, I'm so sorry. Don't worry.
The Lord will take care of you.And then they walk away.
That that's
when they talks about in James,when he's talking about faith has works.
And that if your faith doesn'thave works, it's dead.
And he gives that example.
Somebody walks up to youand they need food and clothing,
(54:04):
and you say to them,the Lord bless you and keep you.
And the person walks away, but you don'tgive him any food or clothing, nothing.
He's like, no, that's not right.
That's not the way it's supposed to be.
And it doesn't mean that we have to, helpevery single person that comes up to us.
You know, there has to be a balancethat works in life for us to take care
(54:27):
of our own life and family.
But we certainly have to realizethat giving people platitudes
all the time is not helpful,and it's actually painful.
And it actually pushes people
into the dark to where they don'twant to admit that they have problems.
Yeah, exactly.
That's what I did.
And I stopped telling peoplebecause I didn't
(54:48):
when I got that responsethen then I got the judgment.
Yep. From itinstead of the encouragement from it.
And it was really hardto like walk into church.
I still, like allthe eyes were looking at me
because I wasn't doing it right,or we weren't performing right,
or if I made him come to church with meand he fell asleep during the service,
(55:08):
I was embarrassedthat he was falling asleep in the service.
And, like they're just like,I don't the reputation thing
was really something I struggledwith a lot, knowing how to handle that
and keep friends that didn't judge,but certainly, there were some that I
trusted that
were wonderfuland some that I trusted that bit me back.
(55:30):
And, that was really hard to know.
The difference.
Like, who is safe to share with.
Absolutely.
I think your experienceis probably pretty common.
And, and you were, but
and I have to say, like,I mean, you were an inmate.
You are an amazing mom.
You have, like, you're an Energizer bunny.
(55:53):
And, I remember you were doingyou were homeschooling
and you were doing stuff all day long,and you were carrying a heavy load
and then you were working at nightdoing as many hours as you can.
And just you still kept your kidsand went places with them.
And you ran programs for themso that they could be in there.
And, I mean, so you were really,really burning the candle
(56:16):
on both ends and holding up,but it wasn't easy.
And it was taking a toll on youand it wasn't.
I wanted them to have the most normalchildhood as they could.
I didn't want this to be an excuse.
I didn't want them to be counselingwhen they were older, saying that
their childhood was awful and thatthat was my mission and that ended up
(56:41):
like consuming my every thought, made surethey're okay, make sure they're happy,
make sure they had their story reador their playdate at the park or whatever.
That was super important to me.
I don't know if that is the right advice.
I and I have a very good relationshipwith my children
now, and I feel like all five of them are,coming to me.
(57:03):
Even my most recent 16 year old was like,well, mommy, you're a counselor.
So, do I have to pay youor can we have a session? So
I was like,
I know thatyour kids are going to all be fantastic
and have a good life and that they've hada wonderful experience in your home and,
(57:26):
so let me let me just I think we're goingto have to split this into two
because we've already gone a good while.
And, so I'm just going to go aheadand end it here,
and then we'll, I'll come backand we'll start a second one
and, we'll look forwardto hearing part two.
(57:47):
So thank you. And thank you.
Yeah. Thanks.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
(58:08):
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
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